The Return of Ta-Nehisi Coates
October 1, 2024 5:23 AM Subscribe
See also this astounding interview on CBS, in which Coates makes a parallel between Israeli apartheid and Jim Crow and host Tony Dokoupil asks why Palestinians deserve this treatment.
This interview with Jon Stewart is less hostile, but Stewart tries to redirect to, if not bothsidesism, a sort of fatalism. Coates responds "I think we have to guard against the temptation to accept that history is necessarily the limit to who we are."
posted by Il etait une fois at 6:26 AM on October 1 [21 favorites]
This interview with Jon Stewart is less hostile, but Stewart tries to redirect to, if not bothsidesism, a sort of fatalism. Coates responds "I think we have to guard against the temptation to accept that history is necessarily the limit to who we are."
posted by Il etait une fois at 6:26 AM on October 1 [21 favorites]
Here's an NYT interview about The Message, Coates' upcoming book.
posted by box at 6:40 AM on October 1
posted by box at 6:40 AM on October 1
I am very impressed with anyone who has a platform and uses it to push back against the dehumanization of Palestinians, which is so horrifyingly ubiquitous in the modern media and political landscape. Kudos to Coates.
posted by mrjohnmuller at 6:46 AM on October 1 [28 favorites]
posted by mrjohnmuller at 6:46 AM on October 1 [28 favorites]
Looks like that first CBS YouTube link went away, ieuf. Here's another.
It is amazing how the one host jumps right to "when did you stop beating your wife" and I am impressed how TNH handles it. It has been a long road for me to be deprogrammed from a baseline pro-Israel position and it is frankly painful to realize how many of the fundamental lessons of the Holocaust remain unlearned.
posted by grumpybear69 at 6:50 AM on October 1 [12 favorites]
It is amazing how the one host jumps right to "when did you stop beating your wife" and I am impressed how TNH handles it. It has been a long road for me to be deprogrammed from a baseline pro-Israel position and it is frankly painful to realize how many of the fundamental lessons of the Holocaust remain unlearned.
posted by grumpybear69 at 6:50 AM on October 1 [12 favorites]
I have a great amount of respect for Ta-Nehisi Coates. But I am deeply concerned about the weight that is going to be placed on the opinion of one (admittedly intelligent and insightful) person's experience over a ten-day trip in 2023. As much as he would like to dismiss the statement that the Israeli/Palestinian situation is "complicated," there is no doubt whatsoever that it is indeed complicated. Even just trying to parse what has happened since 1948 is deeply fraught and difficult. And trying to draw analogies to American slavery is just impossible.
And I say this as someone who is strongly critical of Netanyahu and the current government's handling of Gaza and the West Bank. Hamas is horrible and what they did on October 7 was reprehensible, AND Israel's response has been completely out of line. All of these things can be true.
My biggest concern right now is that Netanyahu has so poisoned public sentiment for Israel in the last 20 years (and recently just to avoid jail time) that the inevitable outcome will be the destruction of Israel (either literally or as a Jewish state) and a new diaspora of Jews. There are some of you who may say "good," but having spent 2000+ years being kicked out of everywhere they have tried to call home, I'm just very concerned.
posted by Ben Trismegistus at 7:05 AM on October 1 [15 favorites]
And I say this as someone who is strongly critical of Netanyahu and the current government's handling of Gaza and the West Bank. Hamas is horrible and what they did on October 7 was reprehensible, AND Israel's response has been completely out of line. All of these things can be true.
My biggest concern right now is that Netanyahu has so poisoned public sentiment for Israel in the last 20 years (and recently just to avoid jail time) that the inevitable outcome will be the destruction of Israel (either literally or as a Jewish state) and a new diaspora of Jews. There are some of you who may say "good," but having spent 2000+ years being kicked out of everywhere they have tried to call home, I'm just very concerned.
posted by Ben Trismegistus at 7:05 AM on October 1 [15 favorites]
So it turns out the CBS interviewer represents freakish new lengths in the category of zealotry of a convert.
posted by Space Coyote at 7:11 AM on October 1 [4 favorites]
posted by Space Coyote at 7:11 AM on October 1 [4 favorites]
But I am deeply concerned about the weight that is going to be placed on the opinion of one (admittedly intelligent and insightful) person's experience over a ten-day trip in 2023.
Seems pretty straightforward, we are talking about an apartheid state. You either think apartheid is right or it's wrong, it's actually not complicated at all. One didn't have to spend time in South Africa pre-94 to know this and you sure as shit don't have to spend time in Israel or occupied Palestine to know this.
posted by windbox at 7:12 AM on October 1 [29 favorites]
Seems pretty straightforward, we are talking about an apartheid state. You either think apartheid is right or it's wrong, it's actually not complicated at all. One didn't have to spend time in South Africa pre-94 to know this and you sure as shit don't have to spend time in Israel or occupied Palestine to know this.
posted by windbox at 7:12 AM on October 1 [29 favorites]
trying,to draw analogies to American slavery is just impossible.
Because I love in the American west, a more obvious parallel seems to be the treatment of Native Americans. They were displaced from their lands, and whenever they fought back, it was considered violence against the colonists which was meet with retaliation and the further reduction of their land.
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 7:15 AM on October 1 [33 favorites]
Because I love in the American west, a more obvious parallel seems to be the treatment of Native Americans. They were displaced from their lands, and whenever they fought back, it was considered violence against the colonists which was meet with retaliation and the further reduction of their land.
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 7:15 AM on October 1 [33 favorites]
the destruction of Israel (either literally or as a Jewish state)Placing these on the same level is... not a great look, I feel like. Israel is an apartheid ethnostate, and they justify it with the exact same conflation. It's part of what's allowing them to commit genocide in Palestine - the idea that any change from "Jewish state" is so utterly destructive that it must be resisted via basically unrestrained violence against civilians.
posted by sagc at 7:18 AM on October 1 [20 favorites]
I dare say that Ta-Nehisi has put a little more work into his views then a single ten-day trip, but I get your point.
I think the that CBS interview gives a solid example of the crux of it. I found the example he gives about being against the death penalty, full-stop very clarifying. You're against it even if they murdered a hundred people on camera. You're against it because it's morally wrong.
He's against apartheid, against racial segregation. I think there is a clear bright line between that and American slavery. If racial segregation is wrong, in the same way the death penalty is wrong-- the arguments around that can be pushed aside. You don't get to say 'Apartheid is evil, but...'
posted by Static Vagabond at 7:19 AM on October 1 [10 favorites]
I think the that CBS interview gives a solid example of the crux of it. I found the example he gives about being against the death penalty, full-stop very clarifying. You're against it even if they murdered a hundred people on camera. You're against it because it's morally wrong.
He's against apartheid, against racial segregation. I think there is a clear bright line between that and American slavery. If racial segregation is wrong, in the same way the death penalty is wrong-- the arguments around that can be pushed aside. You don't get to say 'Apartheid is evil, but...'
posted by Static Vagabond at 7:19 AM on October 1 [10 favorites]
a more obvious parallel seems to be the treatment of Native Americans
AKA genocide.
posted by grubi at 7:24 AM on October 1 [19 favorites]
AKA genocide.
posted by grubi at 7:24 AM on October 1 [19 favorites]
I think he lays it out pretty plainly and pretty succinctly. And I can absolutely guess that Democrats and other leftists will strive to pillory a Black journalist for this. If you don't toe the ENTIRE party line, then you're out.
posted by Kitteh at 7:24 AM on October 1 [6 favorites]
posted by Kitteh at 7:24 AM on October 1 [6 favorites]
Seems pretty straightforward, we are talking about an apartheid state. You either think apartheid is right or it's wrong, it's actually not complicated at all. One didn't have to spend time in South Africa pre-94 to know this and you sure as shit don't have to spend time in Israel or occupied Palestine to know this.
Apparently not, if you're just going to repeat other people telling you that it's an apartheid state.
There are currently more Arabs in the Israeli Knesset than there are African-Americans in the Senate. Is the US an apartheid state?
posted by Ben Trismegistus at 7:24 AM on October 1 [3 favorites]
Apparently not, if you're just going to repeat other people telling you that it's an apartheid state.
There are currently more Arabs in the Israeli Knesset than there are African-Americans in the Senate. Is the US an apartheid state?
posted by Ben Trismegistus at 7:24 AM on October 1 [3 favorites]
Ben Trismegistus, sorry if that's a bit too aggressive; I do take your point that this is a scary time for effectively anyone that's not shielded from things at the level of politicians, who truly don't seem to be capable of recognizing even the possibility of consequences.
But, as Static Vagabond says, so much of the complexity you describe goes away if you're willing to draw hard lines and say (for example) "accusations of terrorism don't justify torture in CIA black sites", regardless of what you moral stance on terrorism is.
posted by sagc at 7:25 AM on October 1 [2 favorites]
But, as Static Vagabond says, so much of the complexity you describe goes away if you're willing to draw hard lines and say (for example) "accusations of terrorism don't justify torture in CIA black sites", regardless of what you moral stance on terrorism is.
posted by sagc at 7:25 AM on October 1 [2 favorites]
There are currently more Arabs in the Israeli Knesset than there are African-Americans in the Senate. Is the US an apartheid state?
Wow that's so cool, what about the other 5 million Arabs who's electricity, water, airspace, ports, pretty much entire material lives are controlled by a country in which they have no voting rights, are subject to separate military courts, have to drive down separate roads and walk down separate streets. What would you call this?
posted by windbox at 7:27 AM on October 1 [29 favorites]
Wow that's so cool, what about the other 5 million Arabs who's electricity, water, airspace, ports, pretty much entire material lives are controlled by a country in which they have no voting rights, are subject to separate military courts, have to drive down separate roads and walk down separate streets. What would you call this?
posted by windbox at 7:27 AM on October 1 [29 favorites]
I'd love to see more well-known people speaking up the way Coates is -- or at least people who are getting real coverage in popular media -- to be sure.
But Coates pushes back, meaningfully, on the appeal to complexity. Per the original NY Mag link: "That it was complicated, he now understood, was 'horseshit.' 'Complicated' was how people had described slavery and then segregation. 'It’s complicated,' he said, 'when you want to take something from somebody.'”
posted by Il etait une fois at 7:28 AM on October 1 [11 favorites]
But Coates pushes back, meaningfully, on the appeal to complexity. Per the original NY Mag link: "That it was complicated, he now understood, was 'horseshit.' 'Complicated' was how people had described slavery and then segregation. 'It’s complicated,' he said, 'when you want to take something from somebody.'”
posted by Il etait une fois at 7:28 AM on October 1 [11 favorites]
sagc, I get it. And like I said, I think Israel is way out of line here. The thing about an ethnostate is that there are numerous ethnostates in the world, and many of them exist because other people have tried to kill them. Armenia is an ethnostate for Armenians. There was talk for a long time about an independent Kurdistan because of how the Kurds have been treated. So I think "ethnostate" has been elevated to a boogeyman unnecessary.
Jewish people just want someplace they can feel safe. Maybe Israel's not it. And the point I was making was that, if Israel (and Netanyahu in particular) doesn't change tacks quickly, Jewish people won't be safe anywhere.
posted by Ben Trismegistus at 7:29 AM on October 1 [3 favorites]
Jewish people just want someplace they can feel safe. Maybe Israel's not it. And the point I was making was that, if Israel (and Netanyahu in particular) doesn't change tacks quickly, Jewish people won't be safe anywhere.
posted by Ben Trismegistus at 7:29 AM on October 1 [3 favorites]
The multi-century treatment of Native Americans is also a complicated history.
And yet it can be summed up in one word.
posted by AlSweigart at 7:31 AM on October 1 [19 favorites]
And yet it can be summed up in one word.
posted by AlSweigart at 7:31 AM on October 1 [19 favorites]
Wow that's so cool, what about the other 5 million Arabs who's electricity, water, airspace, ports, pretty much entire material lives are controlled by a country in which they have no voting rights, are subject to separate military courts, have to drive down separate roads and walk down separate streets. What would you call this?
I call it terrible and wrong and something that needs to stop. But labeling it "apartheid" takes all the nuance out of it. Israel has taken bad positions because it is surrounded by organizations who want to destroy it entirely. Justified? No. But over-simplifying the conversation doesn't solve anything. Do you think that if Israel stopped all of this stuff tomorrow, Hamas and Hezbollah would just lay down their arms and live in peace with the Jews? I don't.
posted by Ben Trismegistus at 7:33 AM on October 1 [4 favorites]
I call it terrible and wrong and something that needs to stop. But labeling it "apartheid" takes all the nuance out of it. Israel has taken bad positions because it is surrounded by organizations who want to destroy it entirely. Justified? No. But over-simplifying the conversation doesn't solve anything. Do you think that if Israel stopped all of this stuff tomorrow, Hamas and Hezbollah would just lay down their arms and live in peace with the Jews? I don't.
posted by Ben Trismegistus at 7:33 AM on October 1 [4 favorites]
Do you think that if Israel stopped all of this stuff tomorrow, Hamas and Hezbollah would just lay down their arms and live in peace with the Jews?
"If you stick a knife in my back nine inches and pull it out six inches, there's no progress. If you pull it all the way out that's not progress. Progress is healing the wound that the blow made."
"They won't even admit the knife is there."
-Malcolm X
posted by AlSweigart at 7:41 AM on October 1 [26 favorites]
"If you stick a knife in my back nine inches and pull it out six inches, there's no progress. If you pull it all the way out that's not progress. Progress is healing the wound that the blow made."
"They won't even admit the knife is there."
-Malcolm X
posted by AlSweigart at 7:41 AM on October 1 [26 favorites]
I call it terrible and wrong and something that needs to stop. But labeling it "apartheid" takes all the nuance out of it
Really, what's the nuance getting missed here then - the apartheid government of South Africa also cited things like security measures, maintaining order, avoiding racial conflict, etc as justification for the existence of the apartheid regime.
Literally nothing is getting over-simplified here, this thing you call "terrible and wrong" and liberal-whitewash as a "bad position" actually has a serious, adult name for it that grown ups use and it's called apartheid. You either don't know what apartheid is which is embarrassing, or you do know what it is and you're being obtuse.
posted by windbox at 7:43 AM on October 1 [20 favorites]
Really, what's the nuance getting missed here then - the apartheid government of South Africa also cited things like security measures, maintaining order, avoiding racial conflict, etc as justification for the existence of the apartheid regime.
Literally nothing is getting over-simplified here, this thing you call "terrible and wrong" and liberal-whitewash as a "bad position" actually has a serious, adult name for it that grown ups use and it's called apartheid. You either don't know what apartheid is which is embarrassing, or you do know what it is and you're being obtuse.
posted by windbox at 7:43 AM on October 1 [20 favorites]
OK, but if the decisions are bad decisions, how is it "justified"? I mean, people internally justify heinous things all the time. It doesn't mean we have to agree with those calculations, or agree that things are justified!
posted by sagc at 7:45 AM on October 1 [2 favorites]
posted by sagc at 7:45 AM on October 1 [2 favorites]
A) Just because it's not from Johannesburg doesn't mean it's only sparkling racism.
B) Please do not equate the existence of a Jewish state as being a good thing for the Jews. The current Israeli state and a large chunk of their society is intensely racist towards wide swathes of their own population. Add to that a nasty sense of entitlement and attitude towards diaspora Jews, to the point that the current Diaspora Minister is basically an antisemitic troll worse than you'd find on Truth Social.
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 7:45 AM on October 1 [8 favorites]
B) Please do not equate the existence of a Jewish state as being a good thing for the Jews. The current Israeli state and a large chunk of their society is intensely racist towards wide swathes of their own population. Add to that a nasty sense of entitlement and attitude towards diaspora Jews, to the point that the current Diaspora Minister is basically an antisemitic troll worse than you'd find on Truth Social.
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 7:45 AM on October 1 [8 favorites]
My biggest concern right now is that Netanyahu has so poisoned public sentiment for Israel in the last 20 years (and recently just to avoid jail time) that the inevitable outcome will be the destruction of Israel (either literally or as a Jewish state) and a new diaspora of Jews.
This.
Natanyahu's goal seems to be to turn Israel into a pariah state. What will become of the Jews when he does this? For anyone who knows or values the Jewish people this is heartbreaking. Never mind he's making it hard for non-Jews to support Israel, the Jewish people I know are in agony. "What are you doing in our name?!"
I am utterly fascinated to see where this will go because I believe some major history is unfolding in front of me but I am choking on my popcorn. I can't look away because this is so major - but it's like sitting here eating ashes.
And that's just the pain I feel for the Jewish people involved with this - add in my grief for the Palestinians and the Lebanese and others, and it makes it feel more like I am eating live cinders.
posted by Jane the Brown at 7:53 AM on October 1 [7 favorites]
This.
Natanyahu's goal seems to be to turn Israel into a pariah state. What will become of the Jews when he does this? For anyone who knows or values the Jewish people this is heartbreaking. Never mind he's making it hard for non-Jews to support Israel, the Jewish people I know are in agony. "What are you doing in our name?!"
I am utterly fascinated to see where this will go because I believe some major history is unfolding in front of me but I am choking on my popcorn. I can't look away because this is so major - but it's like sitting here eating ashes.
And that's just the pain I feel for the Jewish people involved with this - add in my grief for the Palestinians and the Lebanese and others, and it makes it feel more like I am eating live cinders.
posted by Jane the Brown at 7:53 AM on October 1 [7 favorites]
Apparently not, if you're just going to repeat other people telling you that it's an apartheid state.
Coates is not the first to call the situation in Israel apartheid. And he won't be the last because that is in fact an accurate description of the treatment of Palestinians.
the inevitable outcome will be the destruction of Israel (either literally or as a Jewish state) and a new diaspora of Jews.
Jewish people aren't uniquely incapable of living in a multiethnic, multireligious society.
posted by pattern juggler at 7:54 AM on October 1 [7 favorites]
Coates is not the first to call the situation in Israel apartheid. And he won't be the last because that is in fact an accurate description of the treatment of Palestinians.
the inevitable outcome will be the destruction of Israel (either literally or as a Jewish state) and a new diaspora of Jews.
Jewish people aren't uniquely incapable of living in a multiethnic, multireligious society.
posted by pattern juggler at 7:54 AM on October 1 [7 favorites]
Actually I think that slavery and the treatment of Palestinians are strongly parallel in an emotional and moral sense, because in each case, there are actual humans living right there in front of you, having kids, telling stories, getting married, doing ordinary human things, and your whole society is organized around exploiting, controlling, raping and killing them as a normal everyday practice that is justified by their race.
And if they rebel, it's further proof that they are dangerous and need to be put down. It would be natural for you, a full human being, to fight back against violent oppression, but it's sick pathology when enslaved people or people walled up in Gaza do it.
This constant presence of oppression in daily life shapes the consciousness of white people and Israelis - the mental adaptations that you need to make to never, ever see these other people as deserving of equality or as having been wronged, the mental adaptations needed to see them as disposable. This is different, emotionally, from knowing in your head that on the far side of the world your country is doing something despicable. Having the exploitation and violence built into your daily consciousness is the similarity.
Slavery and Native genocide, in their different ways, poisoned the United States, and it has become clearer and clearer that oppression of the Palestinians has poisoned Israel. Having that in front of you every day is poison. It kills your humanity, your normal outward-looking responses.
posted by Frowner at 7:55 AM on October 1 [31 favorites]
And if they rebel, it's further proof that they are dangerous and need to be put down. It would be natural for you, a full human being, to fight back against violent oppression, but it's sick pathology when enslaved people or people walled up in Gaza do it.
This constant presence of oppression in daily life shapes the consciousness of white people and Israelis - the mental adaptations that you need to make to never, ever see these other people as deserving of equality or as having been wronged, the mental adaptations needed to see them as disposable. This is different, emotionally, from knowing in your head that on the far side of the world your country is doing something despicable. Having the exploitation and violence built into your daily consciousness is the similarity.
Slavery and Native genocide, in their different ways, poisoned the United States, and it has become clearer and clearer that oppression of the Palestinians has poisoned Israel. Having that in front of you every day is poison. It kills your humanity, your normal outward-looking responses.
posted by Frowner at 7:55 AM on October 1 [31 favorites]
(Here's a WaPo article about the teacher in Chapin, South Carolina who's been pressured to not teach Between the World and Me, and a video about Gorée Island and the Door of No Return in Dakar, Senegal.)
posted by box at 7:56 AM on October 1 [1 favorite]
posted by box at 7:56 AM on October 1 [1 favorite]
Jewish people aren't uniquely incapable of living in a multiethnic, multireligious society.
Yep, although one of the biggest gulfs between Israeli and diaspora Jews is that so many of the former see the existence of the latter as evidence of Jewish blood and faith somehow being dissolute and weakened, precisely because of things like intermarriage and a relatively high level of participation in progressive and social justice movements.
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 8:04 AM on October 1 [1 favorite]
Yep, although one of the biggest gulfs between Israeli and diaspora Jews is that so many of the former see the existence of the latter as evidence of Jewish blood and faith somehow being dissolute and weakened, precisely because of things like intermarriage and a relatively high level of participation in progressive and social justice movements.
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 8:04 AM on October 1 [1 favorite]
Mod note: One comment removed for being a bit flippant in its response, please keep the Guidelines in mind.
Otherwise, this is a contentious topic, with a lot of very understandable emotions surrounding it. Please be kind to each other, avoid taking each other, and remember you don't have to engage or respond in this thread if you find it's making you incredibly angry.
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 8:06 AM on October 1
Otherwise, this is a contentious topic, with a lot of very understandable emotions surrounding it. Please be kind to each other, avoid taking each other, and remember you don't have to engage or respond in this thread if you find it's making you incredibly angry.
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 8:06 AM on October 1
The thing about “it’s complex / nuanced” is that it is an argument that I have seen being used over and over on social media, but mainly to shut down people who are bringing up the conditions under which Palestinians are being made to live. It does not seem to function as a way of introducing complexity to the conversation — at least, not in a way that attempts to reckon with what people are observing in Palestine — but rather as a way of disqualifying potential critics.
The other thing is that political and historical complexity is not the same thing as moral ambiguity. The history of the region is certainly politically complex; a similar statement would apply to America or South Africa. I think TNC speaks to this distinction very powerfully in his CBS interview.
posted by en forme de poire at 8:38 AM on October 1 [18 favorites]
The other thing is that political and historical complexity is not the same thing as moral ambiguity. The history of the region is certainly politically complex; a similar statement would apply to America or South Africa. I think TNC speaks to this distinction very powerfully in his CBS interview.
posted by en forme de poire at 8:38 AM on October 1 [18 favorites]
Israel has taken bad positions because it is surrounded by organizations who want to destroy it entirely
No, Israel has committed to ethnic cleansing and genocide because it's a settler-colonial apartheid ethnostate founded on the idea that Jews have some special divine right to the land of biblical Israel and that the other inhabitants of the territory can be disregarded or displaced. Israel's closest allies in the '70's were apartheid South Africa (which Israel at one point was going to help get nukes) and Rhodesia, which ought to tell you something about what sort of country it is and has always been, and it's been engaged in war crimes and violations of international human rights law pretty much since its inception (including collective punishment, the building of settlements in occupied territory, etc). If Israel's neighbours want to destroy it? It's honestly no wonder.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 8:41 AM on October 1 [8 favorites]
No, Israel has committed to ethnic cleansing and genocide because it's a settler-colonial apartheid ethnostate founded on the idea that Jews have some special divine right to the land of biblical Israel and that the other inhabitants of the territory can be disregarded or displaced. Israel's closest allies in the '70's were apartheid South Africa (which Israel at one point was going to help get nukes) and Rhodesia, which ought to tell you something about what sort of country it is and has always been, and it's been engaged in war crimes and violations of international human rights law pretty much since its inception (including collective punishment, the building of settlements in occupied territory, etc). If Israel's neighbours want to destroy it? It's honestly no wonder.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 8:41 AM on October 1 [8 favorites]
There are currently more Arabs in the Israeli Knesset than there are African-Americans in the Senate.
There are 57 members of the Congressional Black Caucus. 57 / 535 = 10.7%.
Black population of the US in 2022: 12.6%
There are 10 Arab members of the Knesset (not all of whom are Muslim). 10 / 120 = 8.3%.
Arab population of Israel in 2023: 21.1%.
posted by McBearclaw at 9:53 AM on October 1 [8 favorites]
There are 57 members of the Congressional Black Caucus. 57 / 535 = 10.7%.
Black population of the US in 2022: 12.6%
There are 10 Arab members of the Knesset (not all of whom are Muslim). 10 / 120 = 8.3%.
Arab population of Israel in 2023: 21.1%.
posted by McBearclaw at 9:53 AM on October 1 [8 favorites]
Cory Booker, Laphonza Butler, Tim Scott, and Raphael Warnock 4/100 = 4%
Not sure how meaningful I find the comparison, but I do enjoy being pedantic.
posted by box at 10:13 AM on October 1 [1 favorite]
Not sure how meaningful I find the comparison, but I do enjoy being pedantic.
posted by box at 10:13 AM on October 1 [1 favorite]
Since the Knesset is unicameral, it makes more sense to compare to both the house and the senate combined, but sure, yes, the US is also racist as fuck. This is whataboutism.
posted by Joakim Ziegler at 10:17 AM on October 1 [8 favorites]
posted by Joakim Ziegler at 10:17 AM on October 1 [8 favorites]
My understanding is over half of Israeli jews formerly lived in the Arab World and were subject to explosion and discrimination that forced them to move to Israel. This seems different enough to the colonial projects of Europe that calling it settler-colonialism seems wrong.
posted by hermanubis at 10:19 AM on October 1
posted by hermanubis at 10:19 AM on October 1
It turns out that Rania Khalek was the one who pushed Coates to look more deeply into Palestine:
I was the woman who yelled on the mic about Palestine and got shouted down at his event with Jeffrey Goldberg, it was at the Sixth & I synagogue in DC I think in 2014.
That was really hard to do, I remember being very nervous about saying what I said. I’m so proud I did it.
If anyone reading this knows Ta-Nehisi, please tell him thank you for listening and for his willingness to learn and speak out.
posted by toastyk at 10:44 AM on October 1 [5 favorites]
I was the woman who yelled on the mic about Palestine and got shouted down at his event with Jeffrey Goldberg, it was at the Sixth & I synagogue in DC I think in 2014.
That was really hard to do, I remember being very nervous about saying what I said. I’m so proud I did it.
If anyone reading this knows Ta-Nehisi, please tell him thank you for listening and for his willingness to learn and speak out.
posted by toastyk at 10:44 AM on October 1 [5 favorites]
What is the dispute re: current Black members of Congress? I'm not US-ian, so if I refer to Wikipedia and it lists 57 current members, how is that not accurate?
I think it's kind of gross to argue with numbers, but sometimes I see that a number can be a clear piece of information where otherwise people just can't agree on anything.. "here is a number" at least it's something most people can agree on. So is there an argument to the number 57 as it pertains to current Black members of the US Congress? Thanks, from a non-USian
posted by ginger.beef at 10:45 AM on October 1
I think it's kind of gross to argue with numbers, but sometimes I see that a number can be a clear piece of information where otherwise people just can't agree on anything.. "here is a number" at least it's something most people can agree on. So is there an argument to the number 57 as it pertains to current Black members of the US Congress? Thanks, from a non-USian
posted by ginger.beef at 10:45 AM on October 1
This seems different enough
TNC's point is that is that the history, missed opportunities for peace, arguments about the definitions, analogies to European colonialism, etc. are not actually relevant to the question of whether the Israeli government's actions in Gaza and the West Bank are moral. His conclusion (and mine) is that it is never moral to indefinitely subjugate an entire population - that generations of people cannot be born into a class without rights.
posted by McBearclaw at 10:56 AM on October 1 [9 favorites]
TNC's point is that is that the history, missed opportunities for peace, arguments about the definitions, analogies to European colonialism, etc. are not actually relevant to the question of whether the Israeli government's actions in Gaza and the West Bank are moral. His conclusion (and mine) is that it is never moral to indefinitely subjugate an entire population - that generations of people cannot be born into a class without rights.
posted by McBearclaw at 10:56 AM on October 1 [9 favorites]
So is there an argument to the number 57 as it pertains to current Black members of the US Congress?
There are 57 Black members of Congress, which includes the House of Representatives and the Senate. The assertion was "There are currently more Arabs in the Israeli Knesset than there are African-Americans in the Senate." There are four Black Senators.
posted by kirkaracha at 11:05 AM on October 1 [3 favorites]
There are 57 Black members of Congress, which includes the House of Representatives and the Senate. The assertion was "There are currently more Arabs in the Israeli Knesset than there are African-Americans in the Senate." There are four Black Senators.
posted by kirkaracha at 11:05 AM on October 1 [3 favorites]
TNC's point is that is that the history, missed opportunities for peace, arguments about the definitions, analogies to European colonialism, etc. are not actually relevant to the question of whether the Israeli government's actions in Gaza and the West Bank are moral. His conclusion (and mine) is that it is never moral to indefinitely subjugate an entire population - that generations of people cannot be born into a class without rights.
TNC even goes so far as to empathize with the IDF and Israeli government, understanding how they could arrive at the worldview they are currently espousing. It isn't like he is being blindly partisan - he is looking at the entire situation, and coming to the conclusion that it is morally reprehensible, even if he can see how it got there.
posted by grumpybear69 at 11:09 AM on October 1 [4 favorites]
TNC even goes so far as to empathize with the IDF and Israeli government, understanding how they could arrive at the worldview they are currently espousing. It isn't like he is being blindly partisan - he is looking at the entire situation, and coming to the conclusion that it is morally reprehensible, even if he can see how it got there.
posted by grumpybear69 at 11:09 AM on October 1 [4 favorites]
over half of Israeli jews formerly lived in the Arab World and were subject to explosion and discrimination that forced them to move to Israel
As a direct result of Israel's ethnic cleansing of Palestinians in 1948. If Israel hadn't existed in the first place that wouldn't have happened (and Mizrahi Jews have been subject to discrimination and expectations to conform to a dominant Ashkenazi culture in Israel while largely supplanting the expelled Palestinians as a labouring underclass).
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 11:29 AM on October 1
As a direct result of Israel's ethnic cleansing of Palestinians in 1948. If Israel hadn't existed in the first place that wouldn't have happened (and Mizrahi Jews have been subject to discrimination and expectations to conform to a dominant Ashkenazi culture in Israel while largely supplanting the expelled Palestinians as a labouring underclass).
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 11:29 AM on October 1
ginger.beef, this comment was written to imply that because there are more Arabs in Israel's legislature (10) than African-Americans in one chamber of the United States legislature (4) that America was somehow even higher on the apartheid scale than Israel. That's either ignorant or intentionally misleading because:
1. the 10 vs 4 comparison means *literally nothing* without reference to the number of members and the relevant population.
2. the Senate is only one chamber of the US legislature, and it is by design the least-representative and slowest-changing part of the US government (besides our lifetime-appointed Supreme Court which is currently 2/9 = 22% Black). Conversely, the Knesset is elected by proportional representation and yet is still less representative (in this one way) than the US legislature taken as a whole.
3. it considers only the representation of the 2 million Arabs who are Israeli citizens, who are only subject to run-of-the-mill racism, without regard for the 5 million Arabs living in Gaza and the West Bank, who don't live within Israel proper but are nonetheless kinda relevant to the discussion at hand.
4. as Joakim Ziegler said: who cares? TNC is explicitly drawing an analogy to America's centuries as an apartheid state, which only officially ended within living memory and continues to be perpetuated by racist governments all over the US. I'd argue that a strength of American perspectives on this issue is that we've been there. Apartheid: several times! Wrecking your economy, military, and international standing while causing the deaths of countless civilians so that you could "be safe" from terrorism? Check!
posted by McBearclaw at 11:30 AM on October 1 [5 favorites]
1. the 10 vs 4 comparison means *literally nothing* without reference to the number of members and the relevant population.
2. the Senate is only one chamber of the US legislature, and it is by design the least-representative and slowest-changing part of the US government (besides our lifetime-appointed Supreme Court which is currently 2/9 = 22% Black). Conversely, the Knesset is elected by proportional representation and yet is still less representative (in this one way) than the US legislature taken as a whole.
3. it considers only the representation of the 2 million Arabs who are Israeli citizens, who are only subject to run-of-the-mill racism, without regard for the 5 million Arabs living in Gaza and the West Bank, who don't live within Israel proper but are nonetheless kinda relevant to the discussion at hand.
4. as Joakim Ziegler said: who cares? TNC is explicitly drawing an analogy to America's centuries as an apartheid state, which only officially ended within living memory and continues to be perpetuated by racist governments all over the US. I'd argue that a strength of American perspectives on this issue is that we've been there. Apartheid: several times! Wrecking your economy, military, and international standing while causing the deaths of countless civilians so that you could "be safe" from terrorism? Check!
posted by McBearclaw at 11:30 AM on October 1 [5 favorites]
I appreciate the discussion. Thank you, all.
edit to add: a good example of how numbers can be deceptively clear, and context is everything
posted by ginger.beef at 11:37 AM on October 1 [2 favorites]
edit to add: a good example of how numbers can be deceptively clear, and context is everything
posted by ginger.beef at 11:37 AM on October 1 [2 favorites]
That's either ignorant or intentionally misleading
You silently changed "Senate" to "Congress" and it seems you understand the bicameral thing so it was done not out of ignorance.
posted by Press Butt.on to Check at 11:46 AM on October 1
You silently changed "Senate" to "Congress" and it seems you understand the bicameral thing so it was done not out of ignorance.
posted by Press Butt.on to Check at 11:46 AM on October 1
I don't think you can actually "silently" "change" a word (that you're the author of!) that links to a wikipedia article :)
posted by sagc at 11:49 AM on October 1
posted by sagc at 11:49 AM on October 1
No, I'm arguing that comparing one chamber of a legislature to another entire legislature makes no sense. If it was silent, then it was only out of an American-centric assumption that people would understand, for which I apologize.
posted by McBearclaw at 11:51 AM on October 1
posted by McBearclaw at 11:51 AM on October 1
Thanks for posting this, I didn't know about his new book and have now ordered it.
TNC's Captain America and Black Panther runs were OK. I get that he's a big comics nerd and so writing for Marvel was a dream of his but from my selfish perspective I wish he had kept on writing his essays and putting out non-fiction books instead.
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 12:12 PM on October 1
TNC's Captain America and Black Panther runs were OK. I get that he's a big comics nerd and so writing for Marvel was a dream of his but from my selfish perspective I wish he had kept on writing his essays and putting out non-fiction books instead.
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 12:12 PM on October 1
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posted by Larry David Syndrome at 5:50 AM on October 1 [5 favorites]