Thawing out the "Iceman's" facade
October 7, 2024 12:10 PM Subscribe
The outside world knows Wim Hof as the eccentric Iceman. His family suffered domestic violence.
(CW: physical, emotional, sexual abuse)
...in 2012 Hof was sentenced by the court to community service and a fine because he had assaulted Caroline’s oldest son Christiaan. The incident also resulted in a temporary restraining order imposed on him by the mayor of Amsterdam: he was no longer allowed to come near the family. The explanation states that Hof ‘used physical violence’ against Caroline, Christiaan, and Noah and ‘made death threats’, that ‘the gravity and frequency of the violence has increased over the years’ and that the children had been ‘witnesses to and victims of that violence’.
In 2015, the Dutch Child Welfare Council concluded that Hof had committed so much psychological violence against his son Noah that the boy never felt safe with him. The court therefore decided that Hof had forfeited the right of parental access.
Guardian: Biopic on hold after abuse claims.
...in 2012 Hof was sentenced by the court to community service and a fine because he had assaulted Caroline’s oldest son Christiaan. The incident also resulted in a temporary restraining order imposed on him by the mayor of Amsterdam: he was no longer allowed to come near the family. The explanation states that Hof ‘used physical violence’ against Caroline, Christiaan, and Noah and ‘made death threats’, that ‘the gravity and frequency of the violence has increased over the years’ and that the children had been ‘witnesses to and victims of that violence’.
In 2015, the Dutch Child Welfare Council concluded that Hof had committed so much psychological violence against his son Noah that the boy never felt safe with him. The court therefore decided that Hof had forfeited the right of parental access.
Guardian: Biopic on hold after abuse claims.
I wasn't familiar with him until I listened to the Behind the Bastards 2-parter podcast. He, uh, seems bad. How do these guru types ever get popular?
posted by grandiloquiet at 1:15 PM on October 7 [7 favorites]
posted by grandiloquiet at 1:15 PM on October 7 [7 favorites]
charisma and narcissism are a helluva combo
posted by slater at 1:33 PM on October 7 [8 favorites]
posted by slater at 1:33 PM on October 7 [8 favorites]
My therapist recommended a podcast Hof did (this was years ago during early days of the pandemic). I remember at the time being a little “this dude doesn’t feel quite right to me” and blissfully ignored my therapy homework that week….kind of glad I did.
posted by inflatablekiwi at 1:37 PM on October 7 [4 favorites]
posted by inflatablekiwi at 1:37 PM on October 7 [4 favorites]
Wow. Such a textbook case of abuse that the Volksrant article has breakouts by a criminologist and the head of a domestic violence survivors support org saying "yep, that tracks."
Also, fuck Oprah Winfrey for giving mainstream cred to all these toxic quacks.
posted by The Ardship of Cambry at 1:41 PM on October 7 [15 favorites]
Also, fuck Oprah Winfrey for giving mainstream cred to all these toxic quacks.
posted by The Ardship of Cambry at 1:41 PM on October 7 [15 favorites]
...and another bulshit guru that (fuck him also) Rogan and his ilk also launched into greater fame.
That Rogan<>Oprah pipeline . . . whew!
posted by pt68 at 1:59 PM on October 7 [9 favorites]
That Rogan<>Oprah pipeline . . . whew!
posted by pt68 at 1:59 PM on October 7 [9 favorites]
His responses to the website's questions dripped with narcissism. Yikes.
posted by MiltonRandKalman at 2:03 PM on October 7 [2 favorites]
posted by MiltonRandKalman at 2:03 PM on October 7 [2 favorites]
Oh, god. Fuck that guy. And how awful for his children and ex-wife to go through all of that abuse and then have to contemplate a movie feeding his bullshit celebrity and ego.
Semi-unrelatedly, I always hated the Wim Hof breathing phenomenon because inevitably people do it to them them tolerate immersion in cold water (even if the small print says Don't Do This in Water). The breathing techniques put people at immense risk of blacking out, and, well, blacking out while in water can easily kill you.
Whelp, there it is in the Guardian article:
"The claims of domestic abuse follow allegations that the Wim Hof method does not adequately warn of the risk of drowning from practising breathing exercises, if done in water. He and his business partners insist the method is safe as long as it is practised properly, and that they consistently draw attention to potential risks across their platforms and products.
In July, Hof was found to have not been responsible for the death of 17-year-old Madelyn Rose Metzger by a civil court in Los Angeles. She was found dead in a swimming pool after conducting breathing methods allegedly inspired by Hof and losing consciousness, according to her father."
posted by cnidaria at 2:23 PM on October 7 [4 favorites]
Semi-unrelatedly, I always hated the Wim Hof breathing phenomenon because inevitably people do it to them them tolerate immersion in cold water (even if the small print says Don't Do This in Water). The breathing techniques put people at immense risk of blacking out, and, well, blacking out while in water can easily kill you.
Whelp, there it is in the Guardian article:
"The claims of domestic abuse follow allegations that the Wim Hof method does not adequately warn of the risk of drowning from practising breathing exercises, if done in water. He and his business partners insist the method is safe as long as it is practised properly, and that they consistently draw attention to potential risks across their platforms and products.
In July, Hof was found to have not been responsible for the death of 17-year-old Madelyn Rose Metzger by a civil court in Los Angeles. She was found dead in a swimming pool after conducting breathing methods allegedly inspired by Hof and losing consciousness, according to her father."
posted by cnidaria at 2:23 PM on October 7 [4 favorites]
I was on the wim hof mailing list for a bit - casual interest, although I never got round to doing anything. I unsubscribed when they sent me an email for “cervical orgasm training”. This was such outrageous bullshit, and clearly bullshit, that I’ve never given him a second chance.
posted by The River Ivel at 2:45 PM on October 7 [3 favorites]
posted by The River Ivel at 2:45 PM on October 7 [3 favorites]
wikipedia counts 32 reports of people dying while practicing his "techniques"
posted by BungaDunga at 2:59 PM on October 7 [5 favorites]
posted by BungaDunga at 2:59 PM on October 7 [5 favorites]
My org at work had a teambuilding exercise with him a couple of years ago, and it felt culty as fuck at the time.
posted by ChrisR at 3:08 PM on October 7 [3 favorites]
posted by ChrisR at 3:08 PM on October 7 [3 favorites]
cervical orgasm training what is with dudes dissing the clitoris? IT'S RIGHT THERE. I do not want my cervix to orgasm!! That's not what it's for!!!
I suspect it's one of those fakey "ancient practices" things that boils down to controlling a woman by doing what you want (even if it's fake) not what she wants during sex.
Anyway it would be nice if this asshole were deprived of money and acclaim.
posted by emjaybee at 3:11 PM on October 7 [13 favorites]
I suspect it's one of those fakey "ancient practices" things that boils down to controlling a woman by doing what you want (even if it's fake) not what she wants during sex.
Anyway it would be nice if this asshole were deprived of money and acclaim.
posted by emjaybee at 3:11 PM on October 7 [13 favorites]
My husband’s been very into Wim Hof and honestly, whatever the actual mechanisms (I think it’s basically meditation + nature + hypothermia + endorphins) it’s been a benefit to him. However listening in on the lectures my husband paid for it’s been clear to me Wim Hof is a toxic wellness guy. Whatever you think he says, he does. His history was already kind of clear - the part where you have four kids and don't get a job and keep experimenting, as their sole surviving parent, with how close you can get to freezing to death without dying.
I also, having been the lifeguard for my husband staying in Lake Ontario ice water for 12 minutes, after climbing over the ice, all in a bathing suit in -25 Celsius weather, am aware that the brain starts to shut down. This happened to my husband once, where he was clearly not thinking straight and he had to agree not to stay out that long again. I wonder — not to excuse this guy — if there are points where the hypothermia causes damage similar to CTE and emotional regulation is impacted. Observing my spouse and how you really, really start to get silly high on freezing, I decided he absolutely could not attend a session of all “true believers” without me. And Wim Hof’s been pushing the edge on his own for decades.
Anyways I have no sympathy regardless.
posted by warriorqueen at 3:29 PM on October 7 [11 favorites]
I also, having been the lifeguard for my husband staying in Lake Ontario ice water for 12 minutes, after climbing over the ice, all in a bathing suit in -25 Celsius weather, am aware that the brain starts to shut down. This happened to my husband once, where he was clearly not thinking straight and he had to agree not to stay out that long again. I wonder — not to excuse this guy — if there are points where the hypothermia causes damage similar to CTE and emotional regulation is impacted. Observing my spouse and how you really, really start to get silly high on freezing, I decided he absolutely could not attend a session of all “true believers” without me. And Wim Hof’s been pushing the edge on his own for decades.
Anyways I have no sympathy regardless.
posted by warriorqueen at 3:29 PM on October 7 [11 favorites]
warriorqueen -- if your husband is interested in ice swimming (and not just cold water immersion), there are plenty of safer, saner coldwater and ice-swimming groups with good harm reduction and training and standards and healthcare providers and stuff (and zero relationship to Wim Hof)
posted by cnidaria at 3:55 PM on October 7 [6 favorites]
posted by cnidaria at 3:55 PM on October 7 [6 favorites]
And there's the matter of his identical twin brother ...
posted by nickzoic at 7:39 PM on October 7 [2 favorites]
posted by nickzoic at 7:39 PM on October 7 [2 favorites]
I've managed to miss this guy entirely so far, but it looks like he took (mostly Eastern) European winter swimming and commercialised it? The Polish word for it is literally "doing as the walrus does". Warriorqueen, I suspect finding a local group of Ukrainians doing it - it's definitely considered a strictly group activity for the reasons you mention - would be much safer for your husband.
posted by I claim sanctuary at 9:17 PM on October 7 [1 favorite]
posted by I claim sanctuary at 9:17 PM on October 7 [1 favorite]
I find it hard to imagine that anybody who doesn't have weird ideas around control would consistently seek out the kind of extreme conditions that Hof is known for training up to tolerate.
posted by flabdablet at 1:06 AM on October 8
posted by flabdablet at 1:06 AM on October 8
Yeah it’s similar (my husband’s family is Swedish) but the Wim Hof thing is more cult and doesn’t involve swimming per se. It’s a breathing pattern you do on land first and then immersion in ice water. The pillars are “breathing, cold, commitment” (the last is the cult.)
The idea is to withstand the cold. Wim Hof has climbed part of Everest barefoot in shorts and walked on ice for a kilometre.* Unfortunately this is the appeal for my spouse. It’s a woo woo belief system of how that creates strength and well being (cardiovascular, immune system.) my husband is on to Qigong mostly but still does the dips. I’m fine watching him; it’s nice to get out at sunrise in the beach (we switched to a beach where EMS can get there quickly after that one scary incident where I realized he was out of it and we were 15 minutes down a trail EMS would have to come down. But my husband has been more sensible since too.)
* he also ran a marathon in the dessert without water and other things. Here’s a roundup. (Daily Mail warning but I have to refocus on work and this came up on Google.)
posted by warriorqueen at 8:22 AM on October 8 [1 favorite]
The idea is to withstand the cold. Wim Hof has climbed part of Everest barefoot in shorts and walked on ice for a kilometre.* Unfortunately this is the appeal for my spouse. It’s a woo woo belief system of how that creates strength and well being (cardiovascular, immune system.) my husband is on to Qigong mostly but still does the dips. I’m fine watching him; it’s nice to get out at sunrise in the beach (we switched to a beach where EMS can get there quickly after that one scary incident where I realized he was out of it and we were 15 minutes down a trail EMS would have to come down. But my husband has been more sensible since too.)
* he also ran a marathon in the dessert without water and other things. Here’s a roundup. (Daily Mail warning but I have to refocus on work and this came up on Google.)
posted by warriorqueen at 8:22 AM on October 8 [1 favorite]
You *can* push the body past what most people would expect. Then you get into the "just because you can doesn't mean you *should*" areas.
And the Spock problem. That cheesy episode where his body is walking around wo his brain and McCoy says Spock's brain runs more of his body than most people so if they don't get it back quick he dies.
The analogy just saying "if you're using your brain/mind to control something on the hairy edge, if *you* slip you die". Depending on how close to the edge you are at the moment. And who is nearby to save your sorry ass.
posted by aleph at 10:04 AM on October 8
And the Spock problem. That cheesy episode where his body is walking around wo his brain and McCoy says Spock's brain runs more of his body than most people so if they don't get it back quick he dies.
The analogy just saying "if you're using your brain/mind to control something on the hairy edge, if *you* slip you die". Depending on how close to the edge you are at the moment. And who is nearby to save your sorry ass.
posted by aleph at 10:04 AM on October 8
"[I]n 2008, Hof attempted to give himself an enema with the fountain in the Vondelpark in Amsterdam, resulting in a bowl [sic] perforation"
So part of his practice is to contaminate public fountains with his feces? Sounds like a real winner.
posted by orrnyereg at 10:47 AM on October 8 [1 favorite]
So part of his practice is to contaminate public fountains with his feces? Sounds like a real winner.
posted by orrnyereg at 10:47 AM on October 8 [1 favorite]
On a bicycle ride, not at all dressed warmly enough on a very cold evening, I got a flat tire; it was of course the back tire, added time/difficullty to changing out to a new tube. And now it was raining, of course, or sleet. It was hell.
Changing out the tire I lost use of my fingers -- numb, useless to me -- so shifting was out, braking mostly out.
By the time I got home I was deeply into hypothermia, showed a neighbor where my spare key was, she unlocked and let me in. She came in, made me some tea, did what she could to cover me some, checked back in on me -- a fine neighbor.
I had no idea I could shiver that hard, nor that long. Quite a show.
I was not thinking clearly even halfway through the ride. I was in real danger.
I know that ppl have capabilities way beyond our norm but it takes training -- not just determination -- and the right genetics to get there.
posted by dancestoblue at 10:51 AM on October 8 [1 favorite]
Changing out the tire I lost use of my fingers -- numb, useless to me -- so shifting was out, braking mostly out.
By the time I got home I was deeply into hypothermia, showed a neighbor where my spare key was, she unlocked and let me in. She came in, made me some tea, did what she could to cover me some, checked back in on me -- a fine neighbor.
I had no idea I could shiver that hard, nor that long. Quite a show.
I was not thinking clearly even halfway through the ride. I was in real danger.
I know that ppl have capabilities way beyond our norm but it takes training -- not just determination -- and the right genetics to get there.
posted by dancestoblue at 10:51 AM on October 8 [1 favorite]
"...but it takes training -- not just determination -- and the right genetics to get there"
Yes. Or at least practice. Start smaller and work up gradually. The bigger the change the more likely you won't make it. It that case at *least* do it with other people around.
posted by aleph at 11:00 AM on October 8
Yes. Or at least practice. Start smaller and work up gradually. The bigger the change the more likely you won't make it. It that case at *least* do it with other people around.
posted by aleph at 11:00 AM on October 8
* he also ran a marathon in the dessert without water and other things. Here’s a roundup. (Daily Mail warning but I have to refocus on work and this came up on Google
Aha! This tends to confirm something I’ve thought for a long time, to the effect that since water is one of the byproducts of metabolism, you can reduce your need to drink water by increasing your metabolic rate, but such a thing would be exceptionally hard to do in the desert (during the day, at least) because of the need to cool yourself through evaporation.
I think it’s reasonable to guess that his virtuosity in coping with cold has something to do with much greater than average deposits of brown fat, which can generate heat directly. And if that's the case it might also offer insights into his behavior problems, because brown fat has receptors for adrenaline, and anger is associated with increased adrenaline.
Muscles themselves can also act a lot like brown fat in terms of their ability to generate heat under some circumstances, and it’s hard to imagine a better candidate than Hof if you’re looking for an individual who exhibits this effect.
posted by jamjam at 11:05 AM on October 8
Aha! This tends to confirm something I’ve thought for a long time, to the effect that since water is one of the byproducts of metabolism, you can reduce your need to drink water by increasing your metabolic rate, but such a thing would be exceptionally hard to do in the desert (during the day, at least) because of the need to cool yourself through evaporation.
I think it’s reasonable to guess that his virtuosity in coping with cold has something to do with much greater than average deposits of brown fat, which can generate heat directly. And if that's the case it might also offer insights into his behavior problems, because brown fat has receptors for adrenaline, and anger is associated with increased adrenaline.
Muscles themselves can also act a lot like brown fat in terms of their ability to generate heat under some circumstances, and it’s hard to imagine a better candidate than Hof if you’re looking for an individual who exhibits this effect.
posted by jamjam at 11:05 AM on October 8
"...increasing your metabolic rate"
Wouldn't that also produce more metabolic waste toxins and require more water for the kidneys to flush those? Or do the kidneys/body get more efficient in using water in those circumstances?
posted by aleph at 11:09 AM on October 8
Wouldn't that also produce more metabolic waste toxins and require more water for the kidneys to flush those? Or do the kidneys/body get more efficient in using water in those circumstances?
posted by aleph at 11:09 AM on October 8
Toxins could be a problem if you were metabolizing proteins because of the uric acid which is the end product of protein metabolism in humans, or processing food in the intestines because of its various composition, but pure fat and pure carbs metabolize to pure water and carbon dioxide.
posted by jamjam at 11:28 AM on October 8
posted by jamjam at 11:28 AM on October 8
Thanks, didn't know that. Are there snack foods/athlete foods that just have those?
posted by aleph at 11:30 AM on October 8
posted by aleph at 11:30 AM on October 8
Scott Carney promoted Wim Hof because he found that work with cold water helped an autoimmune problem. I think it's quite possible that Hof both invented something useful and also went off the deep end.
One plausible contributing factor is the web's insatiable appetite for novelty encouraged Hof to become more extreme, though that's obviously not the only thing going on.
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 8:05 AM on October 9
One plausible contributing factor is the web's insatiable appetite for novelty encouraged Hof to become more extreme, though that's obviously not the only thing going on.
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 8:05 AM on October 9
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