Apropos of nothing at all

November 7, 2024 11:45 AM

Which Country Should You Move To?
posted by chavenet (126 comments total)

Timely!
posted by OHenryPacey at 11:56 AM on November 7 [2 favorites]

This doesn't take "Will the destination country even accept you as an immigrant" into consideration.
posted by Greg_Ace at 11:58 AM on November 7 [67 favorites]

Canada which is just another way to say America could be better and ha ha Canada can certainly be worse. Good luck, everyone.
posted by phunniemee at 12:00 PM on November 7 [2 favorites]

I got Ireland. But damn I wish "What level of racism do people of your race contend with at this destination?" and "Will your passport allow you to move there?" were options, because realistically speaking those are going to be the major barriers to emigration. Especially the latter.
posted by MiraK at 12:03 PM on November 7 [19 favorites]

I'm moving to Cozylandia under my duvet and I'm never coming out.
posted by Capt. Renault at 12:03 PM on November 7 [69 favorites]

Capt. Renault, in all of my many visits, Cozylandia has never once checked my passport or required a visa
posted by cnidaria at 12:08 PM on November 7 [34 favorites]

In real life I moved to Japan from the U.S. years ago. Didn't soften the blow of the election one whit.

Wherever you go, there you are.
posted by zardoz at 12:10 PM on November 7 [65 favorites]

but I think I'm realizing why Cozylandia doesn't require a work visa is that work is expressly forbidden for citizens and noncitizens alike. coziness only.
posted by cnidaria at 12:10 PM on November 7 [20 favorites]

The Netherlands did not surprise me for a result. Sigh.
posted by Flight Hardware, do not touch at 12:14 PM on November 7 [14 favorites]

Spain! Nice! But not as temperate as I meant when I asked for temperate.
posted by biffa at 12:24 PM on November 7 [5 favorites]

Portugal? Is that even a place? I didn't want some kind of fantasy-country generator!
posted by mittens at 12:26 PM on November 7 [15 favorites]

I got Portugal first, then Spain and the Netherlands. I think any of those might work for me.

I might like this, but a bit lengthier, and for US states. Actually a couples version would be nice also, since my criteria and my wife's do not entirely overlap
posted by RustyBrooks at 12:26 PM on November 7 [1 favorite]

The Netherlands, Germany, or Ireland. I lived abroad as a teenager (in the UK) and I think I'd love to live in Ireland. There are things I'd miss but there are things about Ireland and Irish culture, like music, which I already love. If you're going to decide to live abroad, you already have to figure out how to grow where you're planted.

(And yeah, zardoz is right: watching your home country do terrible things is still going to hurt.)
posted by gentlyepigrams at 12:26 PM on November 7 [4 favorites]

I am headed to Romania and you are welcome to come there and drink plum wine and eat stuffed cabbage with me, although the math indicates it will take me five to seven years to get there.

Romania has positively gorgeous city centers (though ringed with weird/sad communist stuff), universal health care, a slower pace of life, a low cost of living, fresh organic food, outgoing people, and stunning natural beauty.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 12:28 PM on November 7 [18 favorites]

It didn't even ask about cycling and I somehow still got the Netherlands...
posted by finalbroadcast at 12:31 PM on November 7 [10 favorites]

NZ, Canada, Netherlands. Seemed fair. We considered all three seven year ago when we ultimately decided on Toronto.

Even if I wasn’t just an artist, which no one wants anyway, I’m old! No skilled immigrant visa is going to take someone pushing 60 pretty sure.
posted by seanmpuckett at 12:31 PM on November 7 [6 favorites]

Finland seems like the country I quite want to be…
posted by Windopaene at 12:33 PM on November 7 [11 favorites]

Toronto is expensive as shit, no one can afford to live here who isn’t in tech or on the Sunshine List. But it’s got everything else nailed, as long as you can walk or cycle to work.
posted by seanmpuckett at 12:34 PM on November 7 [3 favorites]

I also got the Netherlands, Germany, and Ireland in that order. But both Germany and the Netherlands have a huge and growing far-right movement that will only be emboldened by the US election. And there's the rub. Fascism and authoritarianism are on the rise everywhere. There's nowhere you can go to escape it.

Ireland, where anti-colonialism and anti-fascism is a core part of their national identity, seems to be resisting this trend more than most western countries. But even they have their own rising far right natalist party.

All that being said, I feel like you can probably find a place in any of these countries that is relatively safe and cozy on a day-to-day basis. But even that might be untenable in a world that is clearly heading to a very dark place.
posted by turbowombat at 12:40 PM on November 7 [5 favorites]

I'm trying to imagine who would seriously use that quiz as the basis for such a major life decision and coming up empty-handed.

Also the screening to indicate whether there is any hope at all that you'd be acceptable to the destination, that seems to be missing.

I'm afraid I'm stuck, too close to retirement to be tempting to any country I'd want to live in. My daughters maybe would have a chance but they wouldn't need that site.
posted by Aardvark Cheeselog at 12:40 PM on November 7 [6 favorites]

I clicked though to see all the questions and "are you trans" is not even one. This is thoroughly unserious.

Which, okay, it's a random website farming clicks, and flight-as-aspirational-lifestyle is where the clicks are.
posted by away for regrooving at 12:43 PM on November 7 [26 favorites]

I made a personal chart like this eight years ago, and since then I’ve only racked up the medications. Not a lot of countries lining up to pay for my inhalers and SSRIs. If I was younger—but then, what good is that when I’m dedicated to elderly parents already? I might manage to go somewhere that takes American expats without a lot of questions, but then there I’d be.

Best hope is that if I’m the kind of person who needs asylum in the future, other countries will be aware enough to offer it. Until then: chop wood, carry water, as the saying goes.
posted by Countess Elena at 12:44 PM on November 7 [2 favorites]

"Is there a country where you have family/friends and/or speak the language?" seems a big omission.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 12:44 PM on November 7 [12 favorites]

But hey, we're Americans, baby! Everyone will surely welcome our awesome selves with open arms, right?
posted by Greg_Ace at 12:45 PM on November 7 [10 favorites]

Why do so many believe we can leave it?

This doesn't take "Will the destination country even accept you as an immigrant" into consideration.

Yeah, I didn't bother with this, since I know Canada and Germany would refuse me.
posted by Rash at 12:48 PM on November 7 [4 favorites]

huh I got Taiwan. not someplace I'd actual considered...

it's funny because the places I am interested in exploring do not really match my test score answers (which I know). I don't really think about these questions when I think about living in Italy or Mexico (my primary choices) although I do think about the climate crisis...
posted by supermedusa at 12:50 PM on November 7 [2 favorites]

I do hold dual citizenship with Ireland, where my father was born. I have more family there than I do in the US, and I admit there's a certain appeal to packing up and heading back to the old country when I don't like how things are looking here. It's an incredible privilege to have that door open to me.

But here's the thing: my family came here fleeing political conflict. I grew up with works of art on the walls that my grandfather made as a political prisoner, because when he saw injustice, he didn't find greener pastures, he went looking for an argument until he was all but exiled from the country over it.

I'd be deluded not to have mixed feelings about everything he thought and said. He was a belligerent man in an ugly time, but he knew what he believed and he stood up and was counted. I have every privilege a person can ask for, and I'm not going to disrespect his memory by using it to abandon my community. If they want me out of this country, they're gonna have to throw me out.
posted by Phobos the Space Potato at 12:51 PM on November 7 [43 favorites]

Portugal? Is that even a place?

Sure it is. You can even buy your way in, with a Golden Visa (for a quarter of a million Euros, minimum. And now it seems you have to pay up every five years?) It's at the top of this list Global Citizen has, of the best Golden Visa countries.

"Is there a country where you have family/friends and/or speak the language?" seems a big omission.

Yes, this addresses the reality of US emigration, and should be the first and foremost consideration of any such dream. Exception: if you're young and flexible, maybe you can go and Teach English somewhere. But it won't be forever; you'll have to come back eventually. Probably have to leave every three months anyway, to refresh your visa.
posted by Rash at 1:00 PM on November 7 [1 favorite]

Chile! Time to start learning Spanish.
posted by pangolin party at 1:01 PM on November 7 [3 favorites]

I am the son of a Holocaust survivor. When my dad was 11, his parents put him and his 13 year-old brother on a boat, alone, from their home in Amsterdam so they could come to America and escape the Nazis.

Hilariously, just one generation later, this website suggests I get back on the boat and return to exactly the same place for exactly the same reason.
posted by The Bellman at 1:01 PM on November 7 [60 favorites]

Alaska!

what.

no, Alaska.
posted by clavdivs at 1:05 PM on November 7 [4 favorites]

yeah I looked into this back in 2020 and the only country willing to take on taquito household was Canada IF we gave everything up to be mushroom farmers, probably those mushrooms have been farmed by now

we are prolly gonna exercise our California option so the kid can grow up with normalized LGBTQ+ness & (hopefully) no PragerU videos in school : |
posted by taquito sunrise at 1:07 PM on November 7 [3 favorites]

Toronto is expensive as shit, no one can afford to live here who isn’t ... on the Sunshine List

Look, given that the low end of the Sunshine list is just $100K Canadian, it's not exactly a list of elite income-earners.
posted by senor biggles at 1:10 PM on November 7 [3 favorites]

Something about Portugal (which this site loves to recommend) is that my research has indicated that on the "Sure, come on in, new citizens/investors!" to "Piss off, colonialists!" scale, Portugal seems to have crossed into the "You can move somewhere else, we are good here without you" level.

It's a good idea, if you want to move to a country to check out how they feel about outsiders moving in. Croatia, for example, gets a "Sure... if you can afford top dollar by local standards" ranking for its cities, while southern Italy gets something more like, "Oh please, welcome! So many homes to choose from! We've lost so much population. Please help."
posted by DirtyOldTown at 1:12 PM on November 7 [6 favorites]

For those in the U.S., Puerto Rico is not a bad choice. No passport or expat status needed. Outside of certain chic areas, housing is affordable. Cost of living otherwise is moderate. Lovely people. English will get you by.
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 1:17 PM on November 7 [7 favorites]

Finland seems like the country I quite want to be…

You're so near to Russia...


That is likely to become an issue.
posted by Naberius at 1:27 PM on November 7 [6 favorites]

But it won't be forever; you'll have to come back eventually.

citation needed
posted by chavenet at 1:29 PM on November 7 [2 favorites]

Seems to strangely think that the US is a single country.
posted by Mr.Know-it-some at 1:37 PM on November 7 [2 favorites]

where is the option "i have an expensive chronic illness and the technology that makes my life better is available there AND they also are friendly to immigrants"
posted by europeandaughter at 1:38 PM on November 7 [5 favorites]

I wonder if there's any synergy between this and another post from today-

punished giorgio: What if I told you that lifted COVID restrictions and relative peace in Afghanistan has created a contingent of Chinese thrill seekers who are making internet content detailing their adventures in Taliban territory
posted by Apocryphon at 1:41 PM on November 7 [2 favorites]

Why do so many believe we can leave it?

I just think it's a very human thing to believe that other places will be better than where you are now. Sometimes we don't realize the baggage we're carrying is us; most of the times it feels like people in other places have it more together than we think we do and so we wish to be anywhere but where we are.
posted by Kitteh at 1:43 PM on November 7 [3 favorites]

In real life I moved to Japan from the U.S. years ago. Didn't soften the blow of the election one whit.

Wherever you go, there you are.

I've been talking to people about this a ton this week, as I've spent a lot of time dealing with byzantine immigration processes in my life (have lived in four countries for my job, currently in Sweden - sadly unable to make it permanent so figuring out my next steps now).

I can't find the link now, but someone elsewhere summed it up perfectly - if you're moving to find a different political climate, prepare to be disappointed. If you're moving because you want walkable cities and a different speed of life, you'll be much happier. Don't move because you're trying to escape the insanity (as tempting as it is), move because you have something concrete you want to move towards.
posted by photo guy at 1:43 PM on November 7 [20 favorites]

I am probably not who you were thinking of, but I was saying more or less this in the big election thread, photo guy.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 1:53 PM on November 7 [1 favorite]

Netherlands, Portugal, and Germany but Portugal only one that's affordable.
posted by GoblinHoney at 1:57 PM on November 7 [1 favorite]

For those in the U.S., Puerto Rico is not a bad choice.

Until the next major hurricane, and NotMyPresident refuses to send disaster relief.
posted by Greg_Ace at 2:06 PM on November 7 [6 favorites]

I am probably not who you were thinking of, but I was saying more or less this in the big election thread, photo guy.

No I think it was on Reddit - I've engaged w so many people in the last two days I've lost track. You did summarize pretty well what I was thinking though.
posted by photo guy at 2:08 PM on November 7 [1 favorite]

Love that I just moved to a new country, regret it, and of all the countries in the world this survey told me I should move to the one I just left.
posted by thedaniel at 2:09 PM on November 7 [5 favorites]

I have decided to retire to India at 67. I just hope that SS remains, even if it is 70% of what it should be. Although my answer here was Singapore.

When I was there for the first time after 14 years; I realized that the quality of life if you have even a US $1000 a month is quite good. I hope to have 3 times that; so I am working on that. Plus I won't feel like an outsider. As a Brown Man, even though I live in a deep Blue city; since 2016 I have been very very careful in all my interactions. I have no idea who hates people that look like me, as I look either Indian or Hispanic depending on the locality.
posted by indianbadger1 at 2:11 PM on November 7 [3 favorites]

I am now investing a shocking amount of money into my retirement. 20-ish% of my earnings and a 6% company match. We also are working with a financial planner now. We started late and have ground to make up, but being aggressive should get us to retirement in Romania/Italy by 60.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 2:17 PM on November 7 [4 favorites]

Malta! Interesting! Why not...
posted by widdershins at 2:21 PM on November 7 [3 favorites]

You can even buy your way in

The current standard route is a 500K euro investment (there are other niche routes with lower requirements, but almost nobody uses them because the investment path is so much easier and lucrative). You don't have to add more money, but you DO have to maintain the level of investment (so don't take your cash out) for as long you have residency.

The residency card gets renewed after one year, then after two years, then again after another two years, and then after that it's every five years unless you choose to become a citizen (which, tbh, you would be insane to avoid). You can become a citizen after five years; the clock for which starts ticking on the date you submitted your application.

...having said all that, the bureaucracy is a bit shattered at the moment. They dissolved the original agency, SEF, and replaced it with a new agency, AIMA, which is struggling under a huge backlog. Right now it takes on the order of two or three years after your initial application before you'd get your residency card, at minimum.

Data point, Portugal doesn't care about multiple citizenships, and neither does the US.

It's substantially less expensive, and a zillion times faster, to just go to the Caribbean and buy a timeshare condo in St. Kitts or the like. Those start at like $200K for a passport after only a couple months.

For Indians, if you naturalized somewhere else, you had to renounce your Indian citizenship. However, you can still get your OCI card, which is kinda like a "second class citizen" category -- you can't own empty/farm land, you can't vote, and you can't hold a govt job, but otherwise you can come and go as you please and generally live a life.

Thailand, meanwhile, has a specific "retire in Thailand" program that gets you things like expedited immigration/customs treatment, a concierge service at the airport, and so on.
posted by aramaic at 2:21 PM on November 7 [7 favorites]

Capt. Renault, in all of my many visits, Cozylandia has never once checked my passport or required a visa

unfortunately, my experience has been that it's too frequently invaded by getyourassupistan
posted by pyramid termite at 2:22 PM on November 7 [18 favorites]

I'm moving to Purgatory; the entry requirements are easy; besides, it's not a big culture shock from these times.
posted by mightshould at 2:23 PM on November 7 [5 favorites]

If you have Hungarian blood.... well, I won't say the Hungarian embassy will throw a passport in through your car window as you drive by... you still have to roll the window down.

The downside is: Hungary. They're um, not great lately. But it is an EU passport.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 2:25 PM on November 7 [1 favorite]

I was talking with a friend last weekend, before the election, about another time I was profoundly wrong: back in, say, the turn of the millennium, it felt fucking hopeful. It really felt to me, for a short time there, like borders were losing significance, like freedom of movement was flourishing, and that we were on the edge of something better. Like a world where it didn’t really matter where you were born, because you’d be able to find the place that fit you. That window shut tight, and things have only gotten harsher and more restrictive since, and even thinking back to how naive I was about it leaves me with a profound sense of sadness. Like there was a door open to a bright and golden future, and it was slammed shut forever.

With this site, I got Sweden, but then again, I remember Sweden’s approach to COVID, which was “eh, don’t worry about it,” leading to much higher death rates in the early going.

Like Zardoz, I came to Japan years ago. I don’t think I ever intended to stay forever, but it’s just sort of worked out that way. The thing is, the way I came has pretty much stopped being viable. Sure, anyone from a country where English is an official language, and who has a 4 year degree in anything can still likely get a job in a language teaching school, but the salary for those jobs has actually gone down (the previous legal minimum was ¥250000/month for a company to be able to sponsor a visa for the worker, but companies lobbied to eliminate that, and now starting salaries can be as low as ¥180000, and the upper starting limit is usually ¥220000). The cost of living, while low by western standards, is still dealing with serious inflation and the effects of the weak yen. In the early 2000s, I was able to pay off my Stanford loans within four years, but jobs I worked largely stopped existing, or the salaries dried up (evening business English classes now pay half, or less, per hour than I used to make).

Simply put, coming to Japan to teach English stopped being a viable path years ago. Hell, even the rules for getting permanent residency have changed, and I don’t know that I would have gotten it under the new points system.

Looking around the edges of this questionnaire, though, it’s pretty clear who it’s by and for: tech folk, and sorry to use a big brush here, but that’s the kind of folks who have repeatedly shown the world how little connection to, or understanding of the realities most of the world lives in. They have the money to buy the visas, and can easily afford the expat lifestyle that would keep them from ever really having to deal with most of the difficulties of life as a foreigner in a new country. Most people can’t just go visa shopping. People who have lived in other countries would have a much longer list of questions, about a lot broader of a range. People who have lived other life experiences in their own country, as mentioned in this thread, would have much more pressing questions about their ability to live safely in other countries. Things like “How safe is this country for LGBTQ people?” or “Is this country safe for non-white, non-Christian immigrants?”
posted by Ghidorah at 2:28 PM on November 7 [16 favorites]

If you have Hungarian blood....

Where can one find such blood?
posted by mittens at 2:32 PM on November 7 [18 favorites]

Well.
I guess I'll
see all y'all
in Portugal
posted by mule98J at 2:32 PM on November 7 [2 favorites]

Where can one find such blood?

They squeeze it from their wrists into your mouth as part of the conversion process.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 2:34 PM on November 7 [3 favorites]

The "good " news is that while the official Hungarian explanation for being so cavalier with passports for non-residents is something like honoring Hungarian ancestry (which would be mildly to moderately racist) the actual reason is that Orban has found that non-residents vote for Fidesz at a higher rate than people who physically live in Hungary, which helps him stay in power. So it's not racism, just fascism.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 2:40 PM on November 7 [6 favorites]

I know it should go without saying: this is a game and its results aren't even transparent so don't trust any recommendations here.

Sorry to be a wet blanket, but an actual resource that was transparent and well reasoned would be legitimately useful.
posted by Lenie Clarke at 2:46 PM on November 7 [3 favorites]

When the mob and the press and the whole world tell you to move, your job is to plant yourself like a tree beside the river of truth and tell the whole world:

“No, you move.”

--Mark Twain
posted by The Ardship of Cambry at 2:47 PM on November 7 [12 favorites]

I got Netherlands, but as a retired person who is not an EU citizen, it doesn't look likely I'd be granted a residence permit.
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 2:58 PM on November 7 [2 favorites]

> Until the next major hurricane, and NotMyPresident refuses to send disaster relief

This is probably going to happen if you live in a blue state, too.
posted by JustSayNoDawg at 3:06 PM on November 7 [4 favorites]

When the mob and the press and the whole world tell you to move, your job is to plant yourself like a tree beside the river of truth and tell the whole world:

“No, you move.”

I'm not against Mark Twain, but,

When you're a tree, your enemies may come with a chainsaw.

Sometimes that river turns into a flood of lies — truth floats like severed branches.

There are times it's better to leave. I'm glad my family was able to flee and that other countries gave us asylum.
posted by UN at 3:39 PM on November 7 [3 favorites]

Portugal. Time to reconnect with my Brazilian former classmates and get some language exchange going.

How well-received are North American emigres there?
posted by Hardcore Poser at 3:42 PM on November 7 [2 favorites]

I got the Netherlands as well, which is amusing as my father was a Dutch citizen (born there) when I was born (in Canada), so maybe there is a route to citizenship via that? Have not investigated. I'm also pretty old and have no money so cannot imagine there is a spot they've specifically been saving for me. Plus I only speak English and my brain adamantly refuses to learn new languages and always has.

I think I would feel like an intruder living somewhere I didn't speak the local tongue.

But otherwise sounds lovely.
posted by maxwelton at 3:50 PM on November 7 [2 favorites]

Wherever you go, there you are.

Escaping to the 8th dimension, are we? Don't be mean. We don't have to be mean.
posted by justsomebodythatyouusedtoknow at 4:04 PM on November 7 [2 favorites]

There are times it's better to leave. I'm glad my family was able to flee and that other countries gave us asylum.

No argument there. If you can do this, do it. I'd rather as many people as possible stay safe and sane.
But in my own case, given how those countries I could conceivably move to are also turning fascist, and given my age and declining health, I may just have to take my chances with the chainsaw. Maybe there will be enough of us stubborn old trees to gum up the works.
posted by The Ardship of Cambry at 4:07 PM on November 7 [5 favorites]

> but jobs I worked largely stopped existing

Working-Age Population Total: From 15 to 24 Years for Japan

(I timed the ~19M peak exquisitely)
posted by torokunai at 4:18 PM on November 7 [1 favorite]

I mean, Crone Island. Obvs. In a parallel universe where my country doesn't need me... Crone Island. <3
posted by kybix at 4:29 PM on November 7 [7 favorites]

It said I should move to Canada. Huh, guess I won this internet game...

Either that or it's yet another website that assumes all of its visitors are from the USA. I guess the lack of a, "Where are you now?" question should have been a giveaway.
posted by snoboy at 4:36 PM on November 7 [3 favorites]

I got Mount Doom. That's good, right?
posted by Calvin and the Duplicators at 5:00 PM on November 7 [7 favorites]

I got a rock.
posted by Greg_Ace at 5:11 PM on November 7 [8 favorites]

I got an island.
posted by deludingmyself at 5:13 PM on November 7 [8 favorites]

All of you turning up with Netherlands should look into the still-existing Dutch-American Friendship Treaty (link goes to a lawyer site, but it was a nice tidy description of things that didn't get bogged down in history or minutiae).
posted by aramaic at 5:18 PM on November 7 [6 favorites]

Sorry folks, there's no escaping hell world.

Fascism, crony capitalism, climate change, pandemics, we've got it all in hell world!

Passports? Phhffttt!
posted by nofundy at 5:23 PM on November 7 [1 favorite]

Italy! <3
posted by Melismata at 5:32 PM on November 7 [1 favorite]

The thing that strikes me, and has done since before this week's sour news, is that America leaves a lot to be desired in terms of the quality of its institutions -- more expensive healthcare and sicker people, lawlessness around guns and around money in politics, low support for protecting and nurturing the next generation. It's not just that things aren't how I'd like them to be, it's that all of it is for structural reasons that I can't see changing no matter who's in charge, and I'm finding this a source of anomie. I don't want to be this cynical and angry all the time. I need to feel like I'm contributing a small thing to something larger than me, and that I'm helping to solve a problem, and those impulses are getting ever harder to satisfy.

Every so often Mr. eirias gets an opportunity to move abroad temporarily. We've always had reasons to say no, but I can imagine taking a chance on an adventure, in a year or two. Of course it depends on what's going on with our parents by then... and whether a child with a documented disability can be supported, I guess. Obligation to family is probably where this plan runs aground for most people, however unhappy they get, before even worrying about the visa.
posted by eirias at 5:45 PM on November 7 [3 favorites]

I got a rock.

Everybody wants a rock. You know. To wind a piece of string around.
posted by Ghidorah at 5:48 PM on November 7 [14 favorites]

I forgot the point that I was making...
posted by Greg_Ace at 5:52 PM on November 7 [6 favorites]

Germany. Not a surprise, and it didn't even ask about techno!
posted by 1adam12 at 6:07 PM on November 7 [1 favorite]

I got Taiwan. I....don't really get this choice since boy, was it out of my parameters.
posted by jenfullmoon at 6:09 PM on November 7 [2 favorites]

I got The Netherlands, which is also where I lived as a teenager before moving back to the United States and well here I still am. Fuck.
posted by swift at 6:33 PM on November 7 [2 favorites]

I sent the info for the NZ youth working Visa for 20-30 year olds to a couple of 20 somethings here in Utah the other day. One of them is coming back to NZ with us on our next trip home….just you know….to check it out.

In the scheme of things it wouldn't be that much to set up a specialized business (say ski touring) in NZ and employee a number of the ski instructors under skilled Visas from here over there. (Everyone in Park City, Utah is a ski instructor if you squint hard enough). Not that I’ve planned that out already
posted by inflatablekiwi at 7:07 PM on November 7 [4 favorites]

Huh, Uruguay. It's a place I'd like to visit, at least! Realistically my profession doesn't even exist in some other countries (medical specialties divide out differently), and my parents are getting older, so any move is off the table until after retirement, at least.
posted by dorey_oh at 7:55 PM on November 7 [2 favorites]

You said you were gonna do this last time and you didn't
posted by jy4m at 8:21 PM on November 7 [6 favorites]

Yeah, not asking where you are now in a 'where should you move to' question is an obvious flaw, given that I should apparently move to Australia. With a tiny change to my preferences, it gave me Taiwan - a country I've been to a couple of times and, no, I don't want to live there. My third attempt got me Canada and the last South Korea. I've never been to Canada, but not a fan of cold climates and South Korea is a country I'd love to visit again, but not to live.

Funny, no matter how hard I tried to skew the results, I couldn't get it to recommend the US. I guess that's because it assumes I'm already there. Which means all the questions are skewed to a US perspective and things like 'strong civil liberties and rights' means something different to how I think about that.
posted by dg at 8:30 PM on November 7 [4 favorites]

Interesting how countries in Africa don't even get a shout....
posted by cendawanita at 8:39 PM on November 7 [6 favorites]

... it gave me MALTA?

Sure, they speak English and are in the EU, but it's HOT there. Noooo.
posted by suelac at 9:18 PM on November 7 [1 favorite]

I got Taiwan, somewhere I like, but never considered moving to (my visits have involved typhoons and earthquakes ....).

Inflatablekiwi: There's already a ski-people interchange thing that's long been going between NZ and the US, when I lived there the only kiwis I'd ever meet year to year were running Tahoe area ski lifts. By brother-in-law (NZ permanent resident), a ski tuner/bum didn't see a summer for 6 years
posted by mbo at 9:46 PM on November 7 [2 favorites]

I got the Netherlands as well, which is amusing as my father was a Dutch citizen (born there) when I was born (in Canada), so maybe there is a route to citizenship via that?

Theoretically you already have Dutch citizenship through your father - it's automatic at birth with a Dutch parent, unless it's been renounced. Even so, you should be able to reclaim it. I know quite a few Dutch people who speak excellent English, it's a very, very common 2nd language there. It would still be, as always, a significant culture shock. It's a lovely country (I've visited a few times to see family) though, and I could quite happily see myself living there if I still had an EU passport, thanks a bunch you Brexit fuckwits.
posted by Absolutely No You-Know-What at 12:28 AM on November 8 [6 favorites]

I got Netherlands which is about an hours plane ride away, so I sent a message to a Dutch friend this morning to let her know my next plans.
posted by Ms. Moonlight at 12:41 AM on November 8 [1 favorite]

This is always a weird topic. There are US families that have never left the Freedmen's bureau towns that the US created. Their ancestors were enslaved and are buried on the sugar plantation that still operates next door.

There are indigenous folks who have constantly struggled for cultural respect and struggled as climate activists since Katrina...

How does one run from climate change?
posted by eustatic at 2:55 AM on November 8 [4 favorites]

Don't know if it's still true, but a friend moved from NZ to the Netherlands at 20ish (back in the '80s) to connect with his extended family ..... and promptly got drafted
posted by mbo at 2:56 AM on November 8 [1 favorite]

I'm an American who lives in a small and very left wing European city. I suppose I'm lucky (I have healthcare, my kids are well schooled, gun violence doesn't exist, etc) and have worked hard to speak the language and generally fit in.

And then there are these people down the road, American parents of my son's friend, who are literal Trump voters. Fuckers.

Guys, you can't run from this shit. Stop letting those fuckers win.
posted by paullydub at 3:32 AM on November 8 [5 favorites]

Don't know if it's still true, but a friend moved from NZ to the Netherlands at 20ish (back in the '80s) to connect with his extended family ..... and promptly got drafted

I was interested enough to look this up, since I do know quite a few people who have to do compulsory military service in various places (Greece, Spain, Korea IIRC, Switzerland, Germany on both military and civilian sides). According to wikipedia apparently everyone achieving their majority in NL gets a letter saying they have been registered but no-one has had to attend anything since 1997.
posted by biffa at 3:59 AM on November 8 [1 favorite]

Heh. I already knew it was Ireland before I even took the quiz. Which, ps, didn’t even have “lots and lots of good bookstores” as a category.

In other news, at least one distant ancestor of mine finds this hilarious I’m sure.
posted by thivaia at 4:54 AM on November 8 [1 favorite]

I guess the lack of a, "Where are you now?" question should have been a giveaway.

Yeah, I got Canada, where I already live. I did in fact move here from the US six months ago in part because of red state politics (but also for personal reasons, and I'm already a citizen, I wasn't immigrating, although my spouse was). If I hadn't been born in Canada, I don't think they would want me! I'm 51 and am a secretary, which they have enough of, and while I won't be a drag on the state, I don't have the kind of money that allows you to just buy your way in.

I also found the range of employment options in the quiz hilarious. Like: do you work in finance, tech, or ... I don't know, what other jobs even are there?
posted by joannemerriam at 6:34 AM on November 8 [5 favorites]

I got Spain, which yes, I'd definitely go to. My cousin settled in Madrid ages ago, after a high school Spanish trip led to him falling in love with the country, getting his language skills honed, and taking anything that kept him there until he found his path to citizenship. Weirdly, even though I grew up bouncing around the world with my dad's job, I never thought out a plan to do something like that - I was always a kind of head-down kid, invested in my books and not thinking much about the future.

Realistically, the only place I could move to would be the Philippines, where I have a lot of family. I don't know if the fact that I was born there would do much, but I think they're pretty friendly to American expats, although uh the ones that tend to go are not ones doing it for the same reasons I would. And climate change will not be kind to those islands, although honestly, where will it be kind?
posted by PussKillian at 6:37 AM on November 8 [1 favorite]

Here's a starter questionnaire for deciding on a country you might live in. You will notice it is not about suggesting specific countries, but rather about what you need to think about.

1. Is there a country where you speak the language and/or have familial connections?
   If so, you can consider going there as a starting point.
2. If you do not have pre-existing ties to a country, ask yourself: Why would they want you? Potential acceptable answers include: you are rich; you already have more than enough to retire by local standards; you have valuable skills that export easily (perhaps through a company for whom you already work); you have a business you can launch in or transplant to this country; or you are willing to take a (likely modestly paid) position exploiting your nationality/language skills (e.g., teaching English or providing English-language childcare).
3. If you have ties to a country or something about you that might make you an acceptable addition there, how would you fit in demographically? This can range from the very obvious (don’t move anywhere where people might specifically want to harm you) to the reasonably obvious (will you be the only visibly ______ person there? How will that feel?) to the less obvious (some areas aren’t oppressive or scary, but may have attitudes about your sexuality or religion that feel a generation behind).
4. What are their population trends? Would you moving there help or hurt? Is this a place where prices are skyrocketing thanks to foreigners moving in? Would you be one more colonialist asshole? Or is this a place seeking workers and residents, where your move would be seen as an investment in money or at least headcount?
5. How much are you able/willing to do to fit in? Can/will you learn the language, or will you depend on the English skills of the locals? How manageable will your life be if you have difficulty with the language? Are you going to try to integrate into the community, or are you going to hide in the expat bar watching sports from back home? Do you want to live like people do there, eat like them, etc.?
6. You understand that even if you can afford to retire or semi-retire there, it will not be a permanent vacation, right? You won’t be sightseeing and drinking cocktails the rest of your life. You will be going to the dentist, paying taxes, taking out the trash, renewing your driver's license, etc.
7. What is it about the way of life in this country that makes you think it would work for you? Even if the world were dotted all over with progressive countries whose politics are headed in the right direction (and, check the news: it's not), you still have to wake up in the morning and like where you live. Are opportunities good for you there? What's the pace of life like? How are their communities structured? Is this okay with you? Is this a place where you can pursue your hobbies? If all you want to do is read books, will you be able to buy books in a language you can read?
8. Related to the above: What are the parts of life in the United States that you might be giving up? Will you be okay with that?
9. Do you understand the differences in pace, bureaucracy, and services you will experience? You may be moving somewhere where a permit for something can take six months after you've already waited three months for an appointment to apply. What if you need contractors and they only show up half the time? This is very normal in some cultures.
10. Do you understand the differences in costs between the US and there? These can be highly variable by product/service within the same country. I've been to Romania a lot, so I will use that as an example. Food is maybe a third of the cost in Romania. Apartments are a third as much. Electronics are 50-150% more expensive. (I'm not saying they feel that much more expensive there because of the exchange rate or cost of living, I am saying that the same television will literally cost 50% more there than it does in the US.) Cabs are far less expensive. Gas is far more expensive. Clothing can be less expensive, unless it is a famous brand, in which case it costs far, far more.
11. Do you have debts? How will your debts look over there? If you move somewhere where wages and the cost of living are only a fifth of what they are in the US, it also means your debts are functionally five times higher. Think about that.
12. What is your health like? What is the healthcare system like there? Can they accommodate your health needs? Maybe stimulant treatments for ADHD are illegal there. Maybe they don't have your medications available under their health plan. Do they have the medical devices you depend on regularly? Does this country have accessibility shortcomings that would be an issue for you?
13. Are you taking a partner/your family with you? How far away will the rest of your family be? What will it take to see them as often as you would like?
14. If you are single, will that be an issue? Are you okay with your dating pool suddenly becoming only people form this country or fellow expats?
15. How will climate change affect this place in the years to come? Will that shore you like even still be there? Will those forests have fires? Is that lovely old town going to flood on the regular? How will the temperatures change? Is their food supply going to be able to remain stable?

posted by DirtyOldTown at 7:46 AM on November 8 [28 favorites]

I'll note that the Netherlands is currently run, to some degree or another by the PVV (a new person became PM who is not a member in 2024 as the head of a coalition of right wing groups, but with the PVV having the plurality of seats in the coalition). The PVV is run by Gert Wilders (previous posts about him here). The PVV is extremely right wing - one of their proposals at one point in time was banning the Koran. I do not know what conditions are like for foreigners in the Netherlands at the moment - I have a Dutch-American friend but have seen her only for a day in the past five years and did not get a chance to really talk about things there outside of her struggles at her job (she speaks fluent Dutch but does not have great business Dutch).

All this is to say that while I got the Netherlands as well, it is not exactly welcoming to all foreigners. The Syrian civil war/the war in Afghanistan/other shit caused in part by Europe and the US were flogged heavily by not-quite-fascist parties in Europe to mainstream themselves. I don't know how homophobic/transphobic these parties are (keeping track of two countries' and one country in name's politics is enough for me), but I do find that bigots tend to flock together. Racists easily find common cause with others.

This sort of thing has grown in all of the traditional democracies. I'm not going to speculate about the hows and whys, but it's everywhere. Labour in the UK is back to being Blairite, until England gets sick of having people who tell them to eat vegetables in charge and elects another Boris Johnson, but even they are maintaining a fairly hard line against immigration. AfD is picking up steam in Germany, LePen made it to the run offs in France, etc.

Don't bet on Western Europe staying progressive and social democratic. The Tories showed an example of how to strangle a welfare state with austerity, underfunding, and underinvestment, I do not doubt that the backers of these movements would not love to see something similar happen in other countries.

Good luck to everyone out there.
posted by Hactar at 8:19 AM on November 8 [3 favorites]

All this is to say that while I got the Netherlands as well, it is not exactly welcoming to all foreigners

Antisemitic attacks on Israeli soccer fans bring shame on Amsterdam, mayor says

Meanwhile: Crackdown on illegal immigration underway in Martim Moniz, Lisbon
posted by chavenet at 8:37 AM on November 8

Don't forget that Italy continues to chip away at LGBTQ rights. These winds, they're not just blowing across the US.
posted by grumpybear69 at 8:46 AM on November 8 [1 favorite]

Italy is also not doing great on sexual harassment. In a famous recent case, as a high school student was walking up a staircase, a school caretaker behind her reached up her skirt and put his hands on her buttocks and grabbed her underwear.

It was ruled not sexual harassment because the contact lasted "less than 10 seconds."
posted by DirtyOldTown at 8:53 AM on November 8 [1 favorite]

I've been thinking a lot about this idea of fleeing to Elsewhere and why it appeals to Americans, in part because my parents keep asking me if we're going to do it. I think there's a generational aspect for them — fleeing the country was an actual viable strategy for left-wing baby boomers in their youth, when the dangerous government policies included drafting you to go fight overseas in a war with a growing bodycount of young men. (My dad would have gone to Canada, but his number never came up.) Flight works for that. And if you're trans, or someone else liable to be literally targeted by your government in the incoming administration, that comparison still makes sense, and these questions can be particular urgent if your state is going to suddenly feel free reign to target you as well. But... it's not like everyone could just pack up and leave in the years these MAGA fuckers hope to return this country to. (Not that you'd be wrong to try do so, if you were suddenly transported to the Jim Crow south.) There are lessons to be learned from the post WWII, pre-civil rights era, and it's disgusting we're going to have to fucking relearn them like this, but here we are.

Anyway. My parents are probably baffled we aren't considering this more seriously, because I'm a scientist, my spouse works in tech, we both have advanced degrees, no kids, could probably get visas in many different locations. But I work with a lot of non-Americans, and on Wednesday I asked a Polish colleague, who's returning home soon, if he had any words of wisdom from the perspective of having lived through a far right government takeover. To which he deadpanned "yeah, I don't know. I just hope I can get some research done when I get back home in between all the mandatory military exercises [for once Putin's done with Ukraine]." And that wasn't the response I was looking for, but it was definitely the response I deserved.
posted by deludingmyself at 8:53 AM on November 8 [8 favorites]

Antisemitic attacks on Israeli soccer fans bring shame on Amsterdam, mayor says

Tangent just to address: Per actual clips and ground reports (inc Israeli media, heh), if anything, it's anti-Arab/anti-Palestinian/Islamophobic violence that received the "Richard Spencer getting punched in the street," treatment.

So correct to be concerned about racism, but as always, the Palestine exception applies in the West. Since the only one being injured that we must always be worried for isn't the Dutch Moroccan taxi driver who was assaulted before these ultras (who travelled with Mossad for protection... But I guess they got bored so they made sure they needed it) were met with a taste of their own medicine.

Ok, back to our regular programming about leaving baggage behind.
posted by cendawanita at 8:57 AM on November 8 [6 favorites]

Also the link in the FPP was broken by the time I got here so I don't know what they'd recommend for me.

But on Election Night my partner asked whether we should move abroad. Once i had swallowed the shock of realizing that as a white man in a blue city, he had not already found ample cause to consider and research this for literally the last TWENTY YEARS so as to have a pretty comprehensive sense of ... sorry where was I?

It was somewhat heartbreaking to have to inform him that that is not really an option for us, two barely-employable middle aged dumbasses, one with chronic health problems.

Canada's not entirely off the board, as my industry actually exists there, so I could probably get a job (with no more difficulty than getting a job ever poses, which is significant in itself), but we'd have to get married which has a number of substantial downsides, and then pay double the tax unless/until we can renounce our US citizenships, and just generally it would suck so incredibly bad that we really can only do that in a true, blaring-alarm emergency.

I've been curious about Portugal, as we had some friends who moved there fairly successfully despite also just being basically regular joes. But I haven't dug into it.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 9:17 AM on November 8 [2 favorites]

then pay double the tax unless...

The US has taxation treaties with many countries, including Canada. You have to file taxes in both places, and then the US will tax you if your US bill is higher. If it's lower (which it will usually be, as Canadian rates are higher) then you pay nothing to the US.

Canada, for example, has a similar treaty with India (guess how I know). It's fairly common among major economies.

Still a pain in the ass, mind, but not quite as bad as 2x taxation.
posted by aramaic at 9:25 AM on November 8 [6 favorites]

It was somewhat heartbreaking to have to inform him that that is not really an option for us, two barely-employable middle aged dumbasses, one with chronic health problems.


And alas, even if your industry has work in Canada, the chronic health problems are a no-go for a majority of applicants. I had to go through so many medical exams back in 2008 when I applied for PR (again, sponsored by my Canadian spouse) to make sure I would not be a strain on the extant medical system. Like, I worry about what I would do if something happened to my sister who is the caretaker of my mom in the US. My mom has Alzheimer's so there is no way I could bring her up here with me if something happened.
posted by Kitteh at 9:31 AM on November 8 [1 favorite]

I had to tweak this a lot to get ANY country in "Asis-Pacific" ... and Thailand is not a place I've ever considered.

Seniors (over 65) who are not wealthy are simply not welcome anywhere.
However, I still fantasize about an elderly Okinawan/Pacific Islander (on a remote island!) who would be interested in sponsoring/marrying me and would appreciate my SSI ... while it lasts.
posted by Surfurrus at 10:06 AM on November 8 [2 favorites]

Yeah the thought is tempting. But as others have pointed out, this kind of thought is really individualistic, whereas many of us live as part of a system of kinship and friendship. Setting aside how unattractive I would be to Portugal (no money, no language, no valuable skills), I also would have to leave my family behind; I can’t imagine immigrating in this day and age with my sisters and their children and my parents and my wife’s family etc. So my plan is to move in very close to my parents, who moved right next to my sister and her wife, and help keep Washington blue and safe. We’ve talked about minimizing our footprint so we’ll have space for family from Texas and Iowa to cram in if they need safety. I’m working on applying to nursing school and I’m a pretty good cook and canner, so we’ll have gifts and skills to share. And we’ll pass our songs and traditions down to our nieces and nephews so they’ll know how to thrive in diaspora if we need to journey elsewhere.
posted by skookumsaurus rex at 10:39 AM on November 8 [4 favorites]

It would be a familial upgrade for me if we move to my wife's home city in Romania.

In the US, my family is scattered across several states, seldom gets together, and when we do our visits are awkward little bouts of competing resentments. In Cluj, nearly my spouse's whole family is there, and they're warm gregarious people who love to do things with each other and with us whenever we are around.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 11:16 AM on November 8 [2 favorites]

One aspect i have not seen mentioned in this thread or the part of the election thread or in ask is that until you are an actual citizen of your new home in the EU, you will not be able to vote. . Obtaining residency and a visa do not give you the right to vote.

And the process to becoming a citizen/getting the passport will take several years (unless you move to a country like Malta or Portugal, which offer golden passport schemes to the very wealthy) and hoops to jump through, such as language skills, tests of cultural knowledge, etc.

This may or may not be a problem to you, but with many EU countries becoming more rightwing not being able to vote i would say is worse than at least being able to vote even if the election result is a nightmare.

Here some links to information provided by the European Commission , which is the official source of information about the policies and laws of the EU member states.

How easily can immigrants become citizens? (MIPEX, what is mipex)

Info by the Europan commission by member state
posted by 15L06 at 11:33 AM on November 8 [3 favorites]

I got Germany and Austria; I guess that would work. But then I put in the opposite (private healthcare, traditional/conservative culture and values for example) of what I really want and got Portugal. I was expecting to get the US, honestly. But agree with others that the questions are pretty superficial and aimed a people expecting to work in a white-collar job once they get there. I would be retiring if I moved abroad, and things like LGBTQ+ rights and how minorities and immigrants are viewed are more important to me than a lot of things they asked about. Even if they don’t necessarily apply to me those attitudes are a good proxy for whether the population is predominantly decent people who understand and believe in the social contract. That is a lot more important to me than, say, the weather. Which will be changing anyway.
posted by TedW at 11:35 AM on November 8 [1 favorite]

"Canada"-- appropriate since I'm a Canadian citizen living in the US.

But this quiz is really missing a lot of questions-- I get that it's impossible to capture everything that might influence such a decision, but I think missing a question about children and childcare availability demonstrates the biases of the quiz maker. If I had plans to have children, I'd move out of the US in a heartbeat.
posted by Pitachu at 12:39 PM on November 8 [3 favorites]

Bit of a first-world discussion, given the realities of migration for a lot of people?
posted by Phanx at 1:47 PM on November 8 [5 favorites]

I don't blame people for thinking about escaping. It's a natural impulse when things get bad and sometimes it becomes a necessity.

I'm reminded of James Baldwin who also left the US because things had gotten really bad and dangerous.

Interviewer
Why did you choose France?

BALDWIN
It wasn’t so much a matter of choosing France—it was a matter of getting out of America. I didn’t know what was going to happen to me in France but I knew what was going to happen to me in New York.
posted by vacapinta at 2:26 PM on November 8 [6 favorites]

Bit of a first-world discussion, given the realities of migration for a lot of people?

Are you going for "If everyone can't move where they like, no one should?" or just a general migration version of "How dare you even speak about what's for dinner, when people are starving in _______?"

A person can only lead the life they have and they're under no obligation to forego trying to improve upon it, as long as they do it responsibly.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 2:34 PM on November 8 [4 favorites]

I live in Canada, I got Canada.

That’s disappointing.
posted by blue_beetle at 3:06 PM on November 8 [2 favorites]

James Baldwin is an interesting case. Thanks for mentioning it, vacapinta. I love this other interview he did very late in his life — it has one of my favorite quotes of his on fear — but this segment is particularly relevant to what he had feared here. It was not only anti-Black violence, it was the effect of that environment on his selfhood. I can imagine this. I think he was brave to face that so directly.
posted by eirias at 3:12 PM on November 8 [2 favorites]

in all of my many visits, Cozylandia has never once checked my passport or required a visa

Sure, but the economy is kinda static
posted by Reasonably Everything Happens at 4:23 PM on November 8 [1 favorite]

My husband holds dual US and an EU country citizenship. We are retirees pretty well set but not wealthy. I think we would qualify for residency as retirees on financial assets testing. We are seriously considering moving to a country in the EU. I'm US born and not ready to give up, but it's really, really hard. I think Trump will push withdrawal from Nato, bully the United Nations, and hand Ukraine to the Russians, thereby dooming Moldova and other small countries on its western edge - in effect recreating the USSR. Not to mention the federal judges his Senate will approve back at home, and his puppet 2025 functionaries running the actual government.

One of my kids is married to someone from the UK and is seriously considering moving with her family. They would need proper work permission, but for them that's not a problem. They're lucky - our other child will probably have to consider digital work or apply for EU citizenship based on his father's birth country. With all the focus on the US immigrants and the value of US passports and green cards it's startling to think that the most valuable citizenship of all is actually dual.

I don't know really where is safe, considering the spread of nationalistic, if not fascistic governments in much of Europe. But except for Putin and possibly Orban, nobody is Trump. Yet. Scratch that - Putin is actually worse than Trump - there is absolutely no check on his power.

It's pretty scary. Is it as scary as here with Trump?
That's the question.
posted by citygirl at 5:56 PM on November 8 [3 favorites]

Both sides of my shitty family have been here since the early to mid 1600s, damn them.
posted by cyndigo at 8:15 PM on November 8 [2 favorites]

My husband holds dual US and an EU country citizenship. We are retirees pretty well set but not wealthy. I think we would qualify for residency as retirees on financial assets testing. We are seriously considering moving to a country in the EU.

We are on track to be in the exact same situation in a few years, except neither of us holds EU citizenship. Have extensively researched which countries have other options for retirees who can support themselves and fervently hoping/praying the options still exist by the time we are able to pull the plug.

As mentioned upthread, I work in the EU currently and have lived here off and on for much of the last decade. Unfortunately the time does not count towards any sort of citizenship (for complex reasons), but I feel like I at least know what I'm getting myself into.

With all the focus on the US immigrants and the value of US passports and green cards it's startling to think that the most valuable citizenship of all is actually dual.

To be honest, I've been saying this for years. In today's increasingly shitty world, having options and not being stuck somewhere really is the most powerful passport of all. As sad as it sounds, it's another reason I'm kind of glad I don't have kids - if I can't offer anything better than today's America, I'd sooner not have them at all.
posted by photo guy at 12:05 AM on November 9 [2 favorites]

Are you going for…

Not condemning, just noticing.
posted by Phanx at 2:12 AM on November 9 [1 favorite]

Seems a little smug when people are talking about it because they're scared and also taking the time to notice that it's difficult to do, but you do you, I guess
posted by DirtyOldTown at 6:47 AM on November 9 [4 favorites]