Anti-Asian Structural Violence, an Example
November 11, 2024 1:56 AM Subscribe
Charlet Takahashi Chung, voice actress for Overwatch and other video games as well as films, documents and recounts (TW: trauma, PTSD, racism, misogyny, classism) in a series of Instagram posts her recent harrowing ordeal aboard a 4+hour long, Canada-U.S. flight on WestJet Airlines, where in the first-class cabin she was subjected to implicit racism and misogyny perpetrated by its entire flight crew and the instigating white passengers seated behind her; WestJet has remained practically silent. Chung used her phone to capture a Kafkaesque nightmare of distributed white supremacy, and she is making these recordings, written statement, and debriefing public to show the extraordinarily personal consequences of macro- and micro-aggressions.
I have found that when you're the different one in the room, for good or ill, you get noticed.
posted by Dhertiiboi at 4:57 AM on November 11, 2024 [13 favorites]
posted by Dhertiiboi at 4:57 AM on November 11, 2024 [13 favorites]
I clicked into this post for the discussion and the [more inside]. Anti-Asian hate crimes did indeed rise during the pandemic, and I am concerned for the future in the U.S. for obvious reasons. US DOJ statistics. Related recent news of serial stabbings from my beloved home city of Seattle.
posted by cupcakeninja at 5:15 AM on November 11, 2024 [5 favorites]
posted by cupcakeninja at 5:15 AM on November 11, 2024 [5 favorites]
Yet another reason to hate Westjet. If you want to be even more disgusted, hear how they covered up serial sexual abuse by one of their pilots in this episode of Canadaland.
posted by OtroGoyo at 5:20 AM on November 11, 2024 [5 favorites]
posted by OtroGoyo at 5:20 AM on November 11, 2024 [5 favorites]
Is there a way I can find out what's going on here without agreeing to Meta's ToS?
posted by CookTing at 5:22 AM on November 11, 2024 [10 favorites]
posted by CookTing at 5:22 AM on November 11, 2024 [10 favorites]
“anti-Asian structural violence,” “implicit racism and misogyny,” “distributed white supremacy,” and other academic framings
The scare quotes and attempt to portray the kind of violence Chung is recording as "academic framings" here are really gross and weird.
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 5:23 AM on November 11, 2024 [34 favorites]
The scare quotes and attempt to portray the kind of violence Chung is recording as "academic framings" here are really gross and weird.
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 5:23 AM on November 11, 2024 [34 favorites]
White people are very invested in treating racism as extreme and exceptional when it is in fact commonplace and pervasive. White people are not credible judges of what non-white people describe as experiences of racism. Racism is the Occam’s Razor explanation. These so-called academic framings describe patterns that white people would prefer remain undescribed.
posted by Horace Rumpole at 6:11 AM on November 11, 2024 [74 favorites]
posted by Horace Rumpole at 6:11 AM on November 11, 2024 [74 favorites]
mefites who are responding to this post to question whether an asian woman experienced racism: i encourage you to reconsider how your posts are exhibiting denial of racism, and ask you to reflect on what you stand to gain by denying this asian woman’s experience of racism? (e.g., maybe comfort? a sense of control?). reacting to this post with skepticism and disbelief, or requesting impossible proofs that look into the minds of the other people, is itself a kind of racist act. to suggest this asian woman needs to provide me proof that those who behaved badly towards her were motivated by racism is fantastical. please reconsider your thinking; you could react from a place of belief. you do not have to like this woman personally in order to believe her experience of racism.
posted by tamarack at 6:29 AM on November 11, 2024 [41 favorites]
posted by tamarack at 6:29 AM on November 11, 2024 [41 favorites]
ngaiotonga I appreciate your awareness that what you wrote could be seen as victim blaming, but it's this bit that concerns me:
the passenger needs to stop saying fuck so much because it's giving the cabin crew an excuse to pick on them.
This is an example of how tone policing plays into racism. It implies that non-white people are held to a higher standard of civility than white people are. Unless I misunderstood you, you're saying that this (non white) woman shouldn't repeat the abusive word that was said to her because one can't expect the white crew not to respond with a lack of civility.
We expect her to rise above the abuse and be hyper civil even in describing her abuse accurately, lest it draw more abuse upon her.
That expectation of civility of the targets of racism is part of racism.
posted by Zumbador at 6:31 AM on November 11, 2024 [48 favorites]
the passenger needs to stop saying fuck so much because it's giving the cabin crew an excuse to pick on them.
This is an example of how tone policing plays into racism. It implies that non-white people are held to a higher standard of civility than white people are. Unless I misunderstood you, you're saying that this (non white) woman shouldn't repeat the abusive word that was said to her because one can't expect the white crew not to respond with a lack of civility.
We expect her to rise above the abuse and be hyper civil even in describing her abuse accurately, lest it draw more abuse upon her.
That expectation of civility of the targets of racism is part of racism.
posted by Zumbador at 6:31 AM on November 11, 2024 [48 favorites]
This is what Trumpism does. It makes people feel free to be assholes, to have no fear about consequences for their shitty actions; even to have total strangers on completely unrelated websites say "maybe it wasn't so bad" on your behalf.
posted by seanmpuckett at 6:38 AM on November 11, 2024 [21 favorites]
posted by seanmpuckett at 6:38 AM on November 11, 2024 [21 favorites]
How hard is it to say 'this man told me to eff off'.
Speaking from experience, it's pretty goddamn fuckshit fucking hard. When what a man has told you, relatively unprovoked, is to fuck off.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 7:10 AM on November 11, 2024 [31 favorites]
Speaking from experience, it's pretty goddamn fuckshit fucking hard. When what a man has told you, relatively unprovoked, is to fuck off.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 7:10 AM on November 11, 2024 [31 favorites]
Were you really that frozen with fear? Doubtful
There's nothing I can say to this dismissive nonsense that won't get me thrown off Metafilter.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 7:11 AM on November 11, 2024 [54 favorites]
There's nothing I can say to this dismissive nonsense that won't get me thrown off Metafilter.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 7:11 AM on November 11, 2024 [54 favorites]
You can browse her Instagram without Meta here.
Assuming the bare facts are accurate, racism really seems like the simplest explanation for the insane behavior alleged.
Were you really that frozen with fear? Doubtful
I'm a white guy, pretty bad at confrontation, and I'd be pretty frozen with fear too. Once your body is in STRESS EMERGENCY MODE there's no telling what you'll do.
posted by BungaDunga at 7:12 AM on November 11, 2024 [19 favorites]
Assuming the bare facts are accurate, racism really seems like the simplest explanation for the insane behavior alleged.
Were you really that frozen with fear? Doubtful
I'm a white guy, pretty bad at confrontation, and I'd be pretty frozen with fear too. Once your body is in STRESS EMERGENCY MODE there's no telling what you'll do.
posted by BungaDunga at 7:12 AM on November 11, 2024 [19 favorites]
direct link to her text post (via imginn, an alternate frontend to Instagram)
posted by BungaDunga at 7:16 AM on November 11, 2024 [4 favorites]
posted by BungaDunga at 7:16 AM on November 11, 2024 [4 favorites]
I saw this on Reddit, and the consensus there was that it was pretty blatant racism, and the airline would "investigate" the incident and then drop it. That's what another airline did with the woman wearing the military suicide hotline shirt.
posted by Spike Glee at 7:17 AM on November 11, 2024 [6 favorites]
posted by Spike Glee at 7:17 AM on November 11, 2024 [6 favorites]
If only Rosa Parks would've been reasonable and moved to the back of the bus
These threads are so deliciously effective in revealing MeFite bias, keep those hits coming
posted by ginger.beef at 7:22 AM on November 11, 2024 [34 favorites]
These threads are so deliciously effective in revealing MeFite bias, keep those hits coming
posted by ginger.beef at 7:22 AM on November 11, 2024 [34 favorites]
Well, this is absolute bullshit, and that guy was acting like a four-year-old, and needed to be chastised like one.
I saw someone comment on the video that it was "illegal to record flight attendants", but I have to ask, if they do shit, and no one else is speaking up, how do you prove it? Fuck that, I'll take the crime of recording if they're treating me like shit. And with the recent upsurge of "I'm a White Straight Cis Guy and that gives me carte blanche to be an asshole as much as I want", I would want to record a hell of a lot.
I may be in a similar situation while traveling, except it's FWT*, and I don't know if I could be as calm as she was.
* Flying While Trans
posted by mephron at 7:31 AM on November 11, 2024 [15 favorites]
I saw someone comment on the video that it was "illegal to record flight attendants", but I have to ask, if they do shit, and no one else is speaking up, how do you prove it? Fuck that, I'll take the crime of recording if they're treating me like shit. And with the recent upsurge of "I'm a White Straight Cis Guy and that gives me carte blanche to be an asshole as much as I want", I would want to record a hell of a lot.
I may be in a similar situation while traveling, except it's FWT*, and I don't know if I could be as calm as she was.
* Flying While Trans
posted by mephron at 7:31 AM on November 11, 2024 [15 favorites]
Oh, one more thing:
That expectation of civility of the targets of racism is part of racism.
It's part of damn near every -ism and -phobia. If we can't be civil, then we're part of the problem and we shouldn't expect the problem to be addressed. It's the tone argument writ the size of a mountain: we're not allowed to be upset in a situation where other people would be allowed to be upset, where it makes sense to be upset, but no, we must make a British beefeater look like a two-year-old whining for their toy if we want to be taken seriously. But then, if we're not upset, then it must not be that bad, right?
I suppose the people indulging in their expectations of civility would like us all to wait for a more convenient season to express our distress.
posted by mephron at 7:43 AM on November 11, 2024 [23 favorites]
That expectation of civility of the targets of racism is part of racism.
It's part of damn near every -ism and -phobia. If we can't be civil, then we're part of the problem and we shouldn't expect the problem to be addressed. It's the tone argument writ the size of a mountain: we're not allowed to be upset in a situation where other people would be allowed to be upset, where it makes sense to be upset, but no, we must make a British beefeater look like a two-year-old whining for their toy if we want to be taken seriously. But then, if we're not upset, then it must not be that bad, right?
I suppose the people indulging in their expectations of civility would like us all to wait for a more convenient season to express our distress.
posted by mephron at 7:43 AM on November 11, 2024 [23 favorites]
I believe her.
People often take the path of least resistance when handling conflict, which is to take the side of the person in power. In our society whites, men, and white men implicitly have more power than Asians, women, and Asian women. People may judge what’s said to them based on who said it. (I.e., they decide who’s telling the truth.)
Key here is that they also expect (and are only willing to accept) a certain response based on who they’re dealing with. White men are seen to require deference (so you don’t confront them, you believe them). Asian women are expected to act with deference (so you ask them for concessions, talk down to them, and harass them when they don’t comply). And then once someone’s taken the wrong side … the one thing people are least likely to forgive you is the harm that they did to you. (I.e., they’re going to double down.)
How awful.
posted by anshuman at 7:50 AM on November 11, 2024 [21 favorites]
People often take the path of least resistance when handling conflict, which is to take the side of the person in power. In our society whites, men, and white men implicitly have more power than Asians, women, and Asian women. People may judge what’s said to them based on who said it. (I.e., they decide who’s telling the truth.)
Key here is that they also expect (and are only willing to accept) a certain response based on who they’re dealing with. White men are seen to require deference (so you don’t confront them, you believe them). Asian women are expected to act with deference (so you ask them for concessions, talk down to them, and harass them when they don’t comply). And then once someone’s taken the wrong side … the one thing people are least likely to forgive you is the harm that they did to you. (I.e., they’re going to double down.)
How awful.
posted by anshuman at 7:50 AM on November 11, 2024 [21 favorites]
Yet another reason (there are many) never to fly on that dumpster-fire of an airline.
posted by senor biggles at 7:58 AM on November 11, 2024 [4 favorites]
posted by senor biggles at 7:58 AM on November 11, 2024 [4 favorites]
I watched the videos, and the flight attendant behavior didn't make any sense. When I'm around crazy situations, I shut down/get upset, so I was actually impressed with how calm she was in the conversations.
That the flight attendant and the male seat kicker couldn't give an ounce of compassion/grace (even if they believed they were 1000% in the right) is wild.
posted by armacy at 8:00 AM on November 11, 2024 [10 favorites]
That the flight attendant and the male seat kicker couldn't give an ounce of compassion/grace (even if they believed they were 1000% in the right) is wild.
posted by armacy at 8:00 AM on November 11, 2024 [10 favorites]
Thanks everyone for correcting me, especially Zumbador and Blast Hardcheese - I've seen a lot of this kind of video where everything is pretty much the same except everyone involved is white and in that case it's clearly the passenger in the wrong, so I wasn't understanding the difference. I think I get it a bit more now.
posted by ngaiotonga at 8:06 AM on November 11, 2024 [6 favorites]
posted by ngaiotonga at 8:06 AM on November 11, 2024 [6 favorites]
I watched the video. There is a series of interactions where she replies with “okay”. A shaken, squeaky “okey”, it’s on the edge of tears. She isn’t cursing anyone out, and when she claims that she only repeated this guy telling her to fuck off I believe her.
There isn’t two sides here. She recorded it because she understood that the airline staff were not impartial or neutral. Because I can see that imbalance in the recording.
And what does she gain with the publicity? A horde of right wing goons who will emerge from 4chan/reddit to harass her. The tone police on metafilter are going full debate club with defining what the the proper and reasonable response is to a situation that could be interpreted, if the dear reader is feeling generous, as a mere trifling interpersonal conflict.
It’s 2024. I’m not feeling so generous with trying to understand how these assholes on a plane are just accidentally racist.
posted by zenon at 8:22 AM on November 11, 2024 [29 favorites]
There isn’t two sides here. She recorded it because she understood that the airline staff were not impartial or neutral. Because I can see that imbalance in the recording.
And what does she gain with the publicity? A horde of right wing goons who will emerge from 4chan/reddit to harass her. The tone police on metafilter are going full debate club with defining what the the proper and reasonable response is to a situation that could be interpreted, if the dear reader is feeling generous, as a mere trifling interpersonal conflict.
It’s 2024. I’m not feeling so generous with trying to understand how these assholes on a plane are just accidentally racist.
posted by zenon at 8:22 AM on November 11, 2024 [29 favorites]
"trapped on an international flight with a racist flight attendant who has it in for you" feels like a horror movie setup to me tbh
posted by BungaDunga at 8:29 AM on November 11, 2024 [12 favorites]
posted by BungaDunga at 8:29 AM on November 11, 2024 [12 favorites]
Mod note: One comment deleted. Let's be considerate and respectful by avoiding any kind of speculation around the victim's state of mind.
posted by loup (staff) at 8:33 AM on November 11, 2024 [3 favorites]
posted by loup (staff) at 8:33 AM on November 11, 2024 [3 favorites]
The micro-aggressions in this very thread are appalling. Jesus christ.
posted by seanmpuckett at 8:38 AM on November 11, 2024 [35 favorites]
posted by seanmpuckett at 8:38 AM on November 11, 2024 [35 favorites]
Watching Charlet’s recorded interactions with that flight attendant was almost unbearable; I began to sweat, and my heart rate spiked, I felt a wave of hopelessness that took me right back to childhood. That woman is a classic bully, wielding the sexism and racism that so many white women will default to when granted even the most tenuous power over other women or any people of color. It’s absolutely remarkable how well Charlet handled herself in the face of it.
posted by minervous at 8:46 AM on November 11, 2024 [17 favorites]
posted by minervous at 8:46 AM on November 11, 2024 [17 favorites]
We've heard her side of the story, now let's hear the other side. Seems fair to me
"I'll take White Guy JAQ for $1000, Alex."
posted by Kitteh at 9:21 AM on November 11, 2024 [25 favorites]
"I'll take White Guy JAQ for $1000, Alex."
posted by Kitteh at 9:21 AM on November 11, 2024 [25 favorites]
Some parts of MetaFilter automatically doubt that there can be racism targeting Asians. I first saw it maybe 15 years ago so and was really disappointed because I thought we were good folks over here. We're not, and I continue to be disappointed when I peek in at one of these threads.
I hope Charlet is OK. I have been in many situations in which some authority assumed the White aggressor was fine. Unfortunately, you can't fight everyone, and in a place like a plane, you just have to eat shit. I'm glad she got it reported.
posted by ignignokt at 10:09 AM on November 11, 2024 [8 favorites]
I hope Charlet is OK. I have been in many situations in which some authority assumed the White aggressor was fine. Unfortunately, you can't fight everyone, and in a place like a plane, you just have to eat shit. I'm glad she got it reported.
posted by ignignokt at 10:09 AM on November 11, 2024 [8 favorites]
cupcakeninja, while those stabbings took place in the Chinatown/International District, “police said there is no evidence that the assaults were hate crimes and it does not appear any of the victims were Asian.” That said, there is definitely racism in the political choices that have pushed a large portion of the city’s unhoused and drug addicted people into Little Saigon without adequate services. Disproportionate impact from crime is part of that, whether or not last week’s stabbings were directly related.
(Note: I’m Asian-American and I volunteer weekly at an organization in the ID. I was five blocks away when the last of the stabbings happened, and had to find an alternate way home because of the police response. So my interest in this is far from academic.)
Oh, and for any white men whose sole contribution to this thread is going to be casting doubt on the victim’s assessment of her own experience, please stop and consider: (1) Whether this is actually contributing anything original or valuable to the discussion, (2) Whether perhaps a woman of color has more relevant experience than you of how racism and misogyny manifest in real life, and (3) How choosing this as your reaction reflects on your ability to be a safe ally to people here or in your life who find their experiences similarly discredited.
posted by mbrubeck at 10:11 AM on November 11, 2024 [25 favorites]
(Note: I’m Asian-American and I volunteer weekly at an organization in the ID. I was five blocks away when the last of the stabbings happened, and had to find an alternate way home because of the police response. So my interest in this is far from academic.)
Oh, and for any white men whose sole contribution to this thread is going to be casting doubt on the victim’s assessment of her own experience, please stop and consider: (1) Whether this is actually contributing anything original or valuable to the discussion, (2) Whether perhaps a woman of color has more relevant experience than you of how racism and misogyny manifest in real life, and (3) How choosing this as your reaction reflects on your ability to be a safe ally to people here or in your life who find their experiences similarly discredited.
posted by mbrubeck at 10:11 AM on November 11, 2024 [25 favorites]
Anyone have a link to the relevant reddit thread?
posted by mr_roboto at 10:15 AM on November 11, 2024 [1 favorite]
posted by mr_roboto at 10:15 AM on November 11, 2024 [1 favorite]
We've heard her side of the story, now let's hear the other side. Seems fair to me.
CZJewel, you know you wouldn't be saying this if a gay guy had been harassed on a plane and then forced to sit in the naughty seat for trying to get help.
But also, like, the flight attendant gave her side of the story, it's right there in the video. Maybe the flight attendant was scared of bothering the angry white guy by confronting him on his behavior, because he might blow up and cause worse problems, so treated the much more compliant and reasonable victim as though she were the problem, because she was the only one that could be talked to safely, but like...that's some racism!
posted by mittens at 10:55 AM on November 11, 2024 [25 favorites]
CZJewel, you know you wouldn't be saying this if a gay guy had been harassed on a plane and then forced to sit in the naughty seat for trying to get help.
But also, like, the flight attendant gave her side of the story, it's right there in the video. Maybe the flight attendant was scared of bothering the angry white guy by confronting him on his behavior, because he might blow up and cause worse problems, so treated the much more compliant and reasonable victim as though she were the problem, because she was the only one that could be talked to safely, but like...that's some racism!
posted by mittens at 10:55 AM on November 11, 2024 [25 favorites]
boy am i glad the poc advisory board has made such an impact on site culture that we no longer have rampant microaggressions and denials of obvious racism like one sees in the first half of this mefi thread
even wilder that the very title of the thread covers much of the commentary in the thread
eponysterical, perhaps
posted by i used to be someone else at 11:33 AM on November 11, 2024 [26 favorites]
even wilder that the very title of the thread covers much of the commentary in the thread
eponysterical, perhaps
posted by i used to be someone else at 11:33 AM on November 11, 2024 [26 favorites]
I'm Asian American. Living and studying in Canada and the U.S., I've been in Chung's shoes many times, to varying degrees of extremeness, so it is clear as day to me what this is about. I'm also an academic by training, so to effectively be called "uppity" for using the required polysyllabic, complex concepts, which I normally use in my head to think about these problems, is a prejudiced ad hominem that is not my first time, either.
The Instagram barrier is unfortunate, as there are many, many insightful, thoughtful, and compassionate comments written by supportive human beings. Of note was one who affirmed, paraphrasing, "I am a middle-aged white male and this is 100% what racism looks like".
posted by polymodus at 12:14 PM on November 11, 2024 [12 favorites]
The Instagram barrier is unfortunate, as there are many, many insightful, thoughtful, and compassionate comments written by supportive human beings. Of note was one who affirmed, paraphrasing, "I am a middle-aged white male and this is 100% what racism looks like".
posted by polymodus at 12:14 PM on November 11, 2024 [12 favorites]
1) People are assholes for many reasons, some of which are unrelated to race.
2) Some people are racist assholes.
I don't see any way to know the state of mind of the passenger who was an asshole to Chung, nor of the unsupportive members of the flight crew. (Certainly asking them wouldn't help.) But the fact that she not only had to undergo that treatment but worry, reasonably, that it was driven by racism, was something that a white passenger dealing with the same treatment would not have to consider.
posted by Mr.Know-it-some at 12:36 PM on November 11, 2024 [5 favorites]
2) Some people are racist assholes.
I don't see any way to know the state of mind of the passenger who was an asshole to Chung, nor of the unsupportive members of the flight crew. (Certainly asking them wouldn't help.) But the fact that she not only had to undergo that treatment but worry, reasonably, that it was driven by racism, was something that a white passenger dealing with the same treatment would not have to consider.
posted by Mr.Know-it-some at 12:36 PM on November 11, 2024 [5 favorites]
I flagged this post as fantastic, polymodus. Normally I flag posts as "fantastic" when they are things that make me feel joy, or I encounter something cool/fun in them for the first time, and that is not quite my reaction here. But I do think this is a fantastic post. You shared something I hadn't heard about, provided useful context, and it resulted in a discussion about a hard topic, with things for all of us to think about. Thank you.
posted by cupcakeninja at 1:44 PM on November 11, 2024 [5 favorites]
posted by cupcakeninja at 1:44 PM on November 11, 2024 [5 favorites]
@mr_roboto, posts can be found on several subreddits:
https://www.reddit.com/r/asianamerican/
https://www.reddit.com/r/westjet/
https://www.reddit.com/r/UnbelievableStuff/
… with the comments on r/asianamerican and r/westjet running supportive, and r/Unbelievable devolving into criticism of the video being edited? yet, not entertaining enough??? and Ms. Chung’s voice is so irritating, she must deserve mistreatment?
A commenter on the r/asianamerican thread said,
“I have dealt with this woman myself on a internal flight. My seat that I had booked and paid extra for was given away to placate some other guy who had been inconvenienced. I was really pissed but said nothing, I guess my face must have given away how pissed I was and this very same flight attendant walked up to me and asked me "Am I going to have a problem with you because I will remove you from the flight if I do." I had not said one word and she wanted to escalate the situation, looking for a reason to create drama. I vowed never to fly WestJet again after that.”
I found these links by Googling, “When is WestJet” going to stop being racist?”, and the bigger picture is that this is not the first complaint of this nature against the airline.
In addition, the same airline had just run a touted advertising campain, to the tune of, “Need to flee your election results? Fly with us!” Which shows a deep disconnect between their ad department, and the actual culture the company reflects.
posted by Rube R. Nekker at 1:44 PM on November 11, 2024 [12 favorites]
https://www.reddit.com/r/asianamerican/
https://www.reddit.com/r/westjet/
https://www.reddit.com/r/UnbelievableStuff/
… with the comments on r/asianamerican and r/westjet running supportive, and r/Unbelievable devolving into criticism of the video being edited? yet, not entertaining enough??? and Ms. Chung’s voice is so irritating, she must deserve mistreatment?
A commenter on the r/asianamerican thread said,
“I have dealt with this woman myself on a internal flight. My seat that I had booked and paid extra for was given away to placate some other guy who had been inconvenienced. I was really pissed but said nothing, I guess my face must have given away how pissed I was and this very same flight attendant walked up to me and asked me "Am I going to have a problem with you because I will remove you from the flight if I do." I had not said one word and she wanted to escalate the situation, looking for a reason to create drama. I vowed never to fly WestJet again after that.”
I found these links by Googling, “When is WestJet” going to stop being racist?”, and the bigger picture is that this is not the first complaint of this nature against the airline.
In addition, the same airline had just run a touted advertising campain, to the tune of, “Need to flee your election results? Fly with us!” Which shows a deep disconnect between their ad department, and the actual culture the company reflects.
posted by Rube R. Nekker at 1:44 PM on November 11, 2024 [12 favorites]
we are consistently told to flag, move on, and let the mods handle the mess.
at this point, it is clear that on metafilter, microaggression policy aside, moderation policy thinks it's okay to allow racist microaggressions to stand.
in that case, what is the point of flagging? why should trust be extended to moderators?
posted by i used to be someone else at 2:03 PM on November 11, 2024 [16 favorites]
at this point, it is clear that on metafilter, microaggression policy aside, moderation policy thinks it's okay to allow racist microaggressions to stand.
in that case, what is the point of flagging? why should trust be extended to moderators?
posted by i used to be someone else at 2:03 PM on November 11, 2024 [16 favorites]
Regarding "Don't cuss even though the instigator cussed first."
An old line from my Usenet days: "Condescending piety is the last refuge of the beaten."
I used that line on some gymbros who decided to park their gasoline truck in the "EV Charging Only" space instead of finding one of the many other parking spots designated for any car to park in. Happy to say that worked and truck got moved. :)
Racism is racism, no matter the target.
posted by luckynerd at 3:25 PM on November 11, 2024 [4 favorites]
An old line from my Usenet days: "Condescending piety is the last refuge of the beaten."
I used that line on some gymbros who decided to park their gasoline truck in the "EV Charging Only" space instead of finding one of the many other parking spots designated for any car to park in. Happy to say that worked and truck got moved. :)
Racism is racism, no matter the target.
posted by luckynerd at 3:25 PM on November 11, 2024 [4 favorites]
It seems pretty clear to me that Chung (and Dao, per the last link) were treated unfairly and injured. What is much, much less clear is whether these episodes have anything to do with “anti-Asian structural violence,” “implicit racism and misogyny,” “distributed white supremacy,” and other academic framings. Sometimes examples of people treating other people terribly do not require a racial dimension to be more fully explained.
posted by PaulVario - 9 favorites
Jesus, are we still doing this crap?
posted by nouvelle-personne at 3:51 PM on November 11, 2024 [9 favorites]
posted by PaulVario - 9 favorites
Jesus, are we still doing this crap?
posted by nouvelle-personne at 3:51 PM on November 11, 2024 [9 favorites]
It was definitely racsim and reading her account of it was pretty horrible. That flight attendant is a racist pos, aided and abetted by the people around her.
posted by awfurby at 4:28 PM on November 11, 2024 [2 favorites]
posted by awfurby at 4:28 PM on November 11, 2024 [2 favorites]
I realize that probably comes off as victim blaming
It does.
but I am genuinely not seeing how this is different to any other 'annoying passenger/cabin crew debate that didn't need to be videoed' video.
If it hadn't been recorded, we'd be having the, "how do we even know it happened?" discussion instead.
posted by AlSweigart at 6:07 PM on November 11, 2024 [13 favorites]
It does.
but I am genuinely not seeing how this is different to any other 'annoying passenger/cabin crew debate that didn't need to be videoed' video.
If it hadn't been recorded, we'd be having the, "how do we even know it happened?" discussion instead.
posted by AlSweigart at 6:07 PM on November 11, 2024 [13 favorites]
where in the first-class cabin she was subjected to
It doesn't surprise me at all that this rowdy, entitled, and physically threatening behavior came from someone sitting in first-class.
posted by AlSweigart at 6:08 PM on November 11, 2024 [4 favorites]
It doesn't surprise me at all that this rowdy, entitled, and physically threatening behavior came from someone sitting in first-class.
posted by AlSweigart at 6:08 PM on November 11, 2024 [4 favorites]
It seems pretty clear to me that Chung (and Dao, per the last link) were treated unfairly and injured. What is much, much less clear is whether these episodes have anything to do with “anti-Asian structural violence,” “implicit racism and misogyny,” “distributed white supremacy,” and other academic framings. Sometimes examples of people treating other people terribly do not require a racial dimension to be more fully explained.
The definition of structural racism is that people of color experience these incidents at much higher rates than white people because of systemic bias. The entire point is that you can't look at any single incident and say "this definitely happened because she's Asian" but that in aggregate they represent the increased hostility, condescension, and domineering attitudes that people of color experience more regularly and repeatedly.
Your reaction to this may be "but I or people like me also experience this" or "I could see myself acting like the white woman in the video for non-racist reasons." That may be true! But the fact of the matter is that Asian women experience it more than other groups, and white people are more likely to act like this towards Asian women. You're never going to know for certain that this white woman was doing this for racist reasons; for all we know Chung reminded her of an ex she hated and the old man reminded her of her loving father and that's the real reason she had the attitude she did! Ok, well, sure, but an Asian woman still experienced once again an episode of harassment and intimidation. It is simply adding to the structural unfairness.
My 86 year old lifelong Republican grandfather talked to me about something similar over lunch last week. He said that he thinks that sometimes what black people call racism is not that people dislike them for the color of their skin, but that there are cultural differences that white people don't understand and that this causes conflict. We had a very productive conversation about what structural racism is and why black people bear the brunt of the consequences of those "cultural conflicts." We talked about the black woman who has recently moved into his previously entirely white retirement home, and how much it sucks that she has to deal with both the blatant "I hate black people" type racism, and the structural stuff--which may not be the result of any one individual holding racist beliefs, but of a system that values white culture and white people over black culture and black people.
He got it. Foolish optimist that I am, I believe in Metafilter's ability to do the same. Try and listen to what Mefites are telling you about how structural racism operates. Maybe eat some tuna poke while you mull it over, that seemed to help my grandpa.
posted by brook horse at 6:12 PM on November 11, 2024 [31 favorites]
The definition of structural racism is that people of color experience these incidents at much higher rates than white people because of systemic bias. The entire point is that you can't look at any single incident and say "this definitely happened because she's Asian" but that in aggregate they represent the increased hostility, condescension, and domineering attitudes that people of color experience more regularly and repeatedly.
Your reaction to this may be "but I or people like me also experience this" or "I could see myself acting like the white woman in the video for non-racist reasons." That may be true! But the fact of the matter is that Asian women experience it more than other groups, and white people are more likely to act like this towards Asian women. You're never going to know for certain that this white woman was doing this for racist reasons; for all we know Chung reminded her of an ex she hated and the old man reminded her of her loving father and that's the real reason she had the attitude she did! Ok, well, sure, but an Asian woman still experienced once again an episode of harassment and intimidation. It is simply adding to the structural unfairness.
My 86 year old lifelong Republican grandfather talked to me about something similar over lunch last week. He said that he thinks that sometimes what black people call racism is not that people dislike them for the color of their skin, but that there are cultural differences that white people don't understand and that this causes conflict. We had a very productive conversation about what structural racism is and why black people bear the brunt of the consequences of those "cultural conflicts." We talked about the black woman who has recently moved into his previously entirely white retirement home, and how much it sucks that she has to deal with both the blatant "I hate black people" type racism, and the structural stuff--which may not be the result of any one individual holding racist beliefs, but of a system that values white culture and white people over black culture and black people.
He got it. Foolish optimist that I am, I believe in Metafilter's ability to do the same. Try and listen to what Mefites are telling you about how structural racism operates. Maybe eat some tuna poke while you mull it over, that seemed to help my grandpa.
posted by brook horse at 6:12 PM on November 11, 2024 [31 favorites]
That man has an incredibly punchable face. Perhaps he hasn't been punched before, hence that fucking grin on that fucking face.
*To be clear, I am not wishing violence on this person- just noting that his rictus-pose of a face indicates a lack of empathy.
posted by ishmael at 6:43 PM on November 11, 2024 [5 favorites]
*To be clear, I am not wishing violence on this person- just noting that his rictus-pose of a face indicates a lack of empathy.
posted by ishmael at 6:43 PM on November 11, 2024 [5 favorites]
I also saw it on Reddit without the context of the person filming being Asian, and that context finally explains why the (white) flight attendant was so friendly with the other (white) passenger. In that Reddit thread people were wondering if the flight attendant knew the other passenger because of how she automatically took his side and the huge difference in how she treated each person.
That she's a racist $%&@ would explain a difference that otherwise makes no sense.
posted by Jacqueline at 6:43 PM on November 11, 2024 [17 favorites]
That she's a racist $%&@ would explain a difference that otherwise makes no sense.
posted by Jacqueline at 6:43 PM on November 11, 2024 [17 favorites]
Can't explain it, except as a POC, but even in the freeze frame, the flight attendant has an incredibly bad collection of microexpressions and posture that's too familiar.
posted by cendawanita at 7:09 PM on November 11, 2024 [14 favorites]
posted by cendawanita at 7:09 PM on November 11, 2024 [14 favorites]
That she's a racist $%&@ would explain a difference that otherwise makes no sense.
this was my thought exactly. the dichotomy of immediate solicitude for him and suspicion for her is really most straightforwardly explained by racism
posted by BungaDunga at 7:46 PM on November 11, 2024 [13 favorites]
this was my thought exactly. the dichotomy of immediate solicitude for him and suspicion for her is really most straightforwardly explained by racism
posted by BungaDunga at 7:46 PM on November 11, 2024 [13 favorites]
I don't see any way to know the state of mind of the passenger who was an asshole to Chung, nor of the unsupportive members of the flight crew. (Certainly asking them wouldn't help.) But the fact that she not only had to undergo that treatment but worry, reasonably, that it was driven by racism, was something that a white passenger dealing with the same treatment would not have to consider.
So here's where it helps to distinguish between personal racism and structural racism. Sure, we don't know whether the people directly involved were personally racist (although i would bet cash money that they are!) But regardless of whether they were or not, the entire way this interaction went down is structurally racist—that is to say, it would absolutely not have happened in the same way without the constant background radiation of racism. (And misogyny!)
If two white guys travelling first-class had had the same initial conflict—which, i remind you, was "passenger A kicks passenger B's seat, passenger B politely communicates 'please stop', passenger A replies 'fuck you', passenger B says 'did you really just tell me to fuck off?'"—it would've been handled much differently. If anything had to be handled at all, because passenger A probably wouldn't have behaved that way to another white guy in the first place.
posted by adrienneleigh at 8:37 PM on November 11, 2024 [13 favorites]
So here's where it helps to distinguish between personal racism and structural racism. Sure, we don't know whether the people directly involved were personally racist (although i would bet cash money that they are!) But regardless of whether they were or not, the entire way this interaction went down is structurally racist—that is to say, it would absolutely not have happened in the same way without the constant background radiation of racism. (And misogyny!)
If two white guys travelling first-class had had the same initial conflict—which, i remind you, was "passenger A kicks passenger B's seat, passenger B politely communicates 'please stop', passenger A replies 'fuck you', passenger B says 'did you really just tell me to fuck off?'"—it would've been handled much differently. If anything had to be handled at all, because passenger A probably wouldn't have behaved that way to another white guy in the first place.
posted by adrienneleigh at 8:37 PM on November 11, 2024 [13 favorites]
That is some raw emotional footage. Kafkaesque is putting it mildly.
They should have cameras installed on all flights so it's not left to a gaslighted/stressed/terrified passenger to try to document what kind of crap is going down.
posted by storybored at 9:08 PM on November 11, 2024 [4 favorites]
They should have cameras installed on all flights so it's not left to a gaslighted/stressed/terrified passenger to try to document what kind of crap is going down.
posted by storybored at 9:08 PM on November 11, 2024 [4 favorites]
Mod note: Several deleted, and apologies for any resultant confusion. I think some comments may have been left in order to preserve context (very many responses referred to specific framing and language), but since this can be seen as implicit "these comments are okay," I've removed them, because they are not okay. Reasons for removal: victim blaming (she shouldn't have repeated "fuck" so much, and she must be exaggerating / misrepresenting); questioning the lived experience of actual racism (white people are also jerks to each other -- why is this racism?); again, (paraphrasing) this is only racism within an academic framing; and basically a lot of, "I'm a white person and this does not seem like racism to me." If you are not a minority or marginalized person, please just hold your instant doubt / denial that something racist (etc.) happened, and pay attention to what people who live these experiences have to say.
posted by taz (staff) at 11:49 PM on November 11, 2024 [15 favorites]
posted by taz (staff) at 11:49 PM on November 11, 2024 [15 favorites]
Late to the party but just want to add that as a Canadian living in Scarborough/Toronto, where there's a rich tapestry of Asian-Canadians...I have unfortunately personally witnessed these kinds of incidents, and I do think they got worse starting in January 2020.
I have no trouble believing Charlet's account and I don't see a reason not to - I'm not the HR rep firing the flight attendant or a jury determining damages. I've seen similar and I believe her, and hopefully I would believe her without having seen it myself but humans are dumb sometimes.
One aspect of anti-Asian racism, particularly with Asian women, is that there is a baseline assumption of compliance. So the few times I've seen an Asian woman push back verbally or some, as Charlet did, the behaviour escalated rapidly. In the case I encountered professionally the escalation was so extreme we ended up firing a client. (February 2020 too, and it was - bizarre how quickly we got in one conversation from "appreciated child care provider" to something I won't repeat.)
I suspect that's what happened with the deboarding threat. An Asian woman pushing back on changing seats reads as dangerously aggressive in a biased/racist context, where if the white guy had been asked and said he didn't want to change seats that might not be seen as "aggression requiring deboarding."
It can take a bit to see it, so listening and watching is a good way to start feeling it in real live situations. You can intervene.
posted by warriorqueen at 7:31 AM on November 12, 2024 [14 favorites]
I have no trouble believing Charlet's account and I don't see a reason not to - I'm not the HR rep firing the flight attendant or a jury determining damages. I've seen similar and I believe her, and hopefully I would believe her without having seen it myself but humans are dumb sometimes.
One aspect of anti-Asian racism, particularly with Asian women, is that there is a baseline assumption of compliance. So the few times I've seen an Asian woman push back verbally or some, as Charlet did, the behaviour escalated rapidly. In the case I encountered professionally the escalation was so extreme we ended up firing a client. (February 2020 too, and it was - bizarre how quickly we got in one conversation from "appreciated child care provider" to something I won't repeat.)
I suspect that's what happened with the deboarding threat. An Asian woman pushing back on changing seats reads as dangerously aggressive in a biased/racist context, where if the white guy had been asked and said he didn't want to change seats that might not be seen as "aggression requiring deboarding."
It can take a bit to see it, so listening and watching is a good way to start feeling it in real live situations. You can intervene.
posted by warriorqueen at 7:31 AM on November 12, 2024 [14 favorites]
The default reaction of most people on a flight is to acquiesce to the flight crew even if the crew is in the wrong. The problem is that acquiescence only reinforces the problematic behaviors that this flight attendant and those like them, exhibit.
posted by storybored at 8:53 AM on November 12, 2024
posted by storybored at 8:53 AM on November 12, 2024
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