Shadowdark
January 18, 2025 5:04 AM Subscribe
Arguably the greatest RPG to have emerged from the Old School Renaissance, Shadowdark won four gold medals at the 2024 ENNIE Awards: Product of the Year, Best Game, Best Layout and Design, and Best Rules.
One of the things I love most about Shadowdark is how it delivers such a deeply immersive experience without bogging you down with overly complex rules. It’s all about simplicity and ease of play. But don’t think that Shadowdark is just a nostalgic throwback. It’s a fully modern RPG that brings innovative mechanics and real-time elements into the mix, adding fresh dimensions to the gameplay. This game bridges the gap between classic and contemporary, honoring the legacy of early D&D while pushing the boundaries of what a modern tabletop RPG can achieve.Deconstructing and Rebuilding RPG Design, with designer Kelsey Dionne
This game is great! Totally recommend for folks who play 5e but want something lighter.
posted by triage_lazarus at 5:15 AM on January 18 [2 favorites]
posted by triage_lazarus at 5:15 AM on January 18 [2 favorites]
~...it delivers such a deeply immersive experience without bogging you down with overly complex rules. It’s all about simplicity and ease of play.
~It’s easy to pick up and play, which means you can dive into the action without wading through pages of rules.
Nice! This game sounds like something I could actually enjoy.
It’s always been this complexity that has kept D&D at arm’s length for me, despite my deep curiosity. Everyone I’ve known who were seriously into the games actually seemed to thrive on the complexity of the rules, almost as if gameplay was secondary. My experience playing has always been along the lines of “an hour and a half to set-up, and then die five minutes into actual gameplay” which has always kept me from getting serious about playing. I’ll have ask around and see if anyone plays this.
posted by Thorzdad at 6:11 AM on January 18 [3 favorites]
~It’s easy to pick up and play, which means you can dive into the action without wading through pages of rules.
Nice! This game sounds like something I could actually enjoy.
It’s always been this complexity that has kept D&D at arm’s length for me, despite my deep curiosity. Everyone I’ve known who were seriously into the games actually seemed to thrive on the complexity of the rules, almost as if gameplay was secondary. My experience playing has always been along the lines of “an hour and a half to set-up, and then die five minutes into actual gameplay” which has always kept me from getting serious about playing. I’ll have ask around and see if anyone plays this.
posted by Thorzdad at 6:11 AM on January 18 [3 favorites]
"Real time mechanics." I'm assuming that this is only in effect during "tactical mode" (to borrow from Baldur's Gate). (I would not want to walk into Moria in real time.) Even in "combat time", I can see this devolving into arguments about how long it takes to pick a lock or quaff a potion. And, of course, the argument itself takes time, so how real is "real time"? I like the idea of applying pressure on the players to move things along, but I'd need to see the details of the mechanics to see if this works. (Which is to say, I'm going to add this RPG to my collection right away.)
posted by SPrintF at 6:54 AM on January 18 [1 favorite]
posted by SPrintF at 6:54 AM on January 18 [1 favorite]
how real is "real time"
If the players don't get out of the dungeon before their characters' torches run out, they are literally eaten by gnolls, so it's pretty hardcore.
posted by Lemkin at 7:00 AM on January 18 [4 favorites]
If the players don't get out of the dungeon before their characters' torches run out, they are literally eaten by gnolls, so it's pretty hardcore.
posted by Lemkin at 7:00 AM on January 18 [4 favorites]
Reading this, the game doesn't use spell slots? As long as the MU knows the spell, they can cast it as often as they like, assuming they make their casting roll? (And if they don't, things could get pretty bad.) That sounds potentially really powerful, dangerous, or both.
I haven't played D&D since second edition, although I'm currently in a campaign using another old school system (Tales of the Iron League). I found some of the real time comments odd. "You have to worry about your torches going out while camping." Really? How about spell durations? Isn't that still a thing? That's something that my parties constantly have to worry about. (I also found the emphasis on torches weird. I guess that game doesn't have "continual light.")
I also found some of the other comments about some of the innovations weird, because I've seen them in other games. Still, haven't seen 5e, and only a few OSR games, so not an expert.
In any case, as long as the game's clear, and lets you have fun, it sounds like a winner. I still have my copy of Aria, Canticle of the Monomyth. It has some cool ideas, bug GOD is it impenetrable.
posted by Spike Glee at 7:57 AM on January 18 [2 favorites]
I haven't played D&D since second edition, although I'm currently in a campaign using another old school system (Tales of the Iron League). I found some of the real time comments odd. "You have to worry about your torches going out while camping." Really? How about spell durations? Isn't that still a thing? That's something that my parties constantly have to worry about. (I also found the emphasis on torches weird. I guess that game doesn't have "continual light.")
I also found some of the other comments about some of the innovations weird, because I've seen them in other games. Still, haven't seen 5e, and only a few OSR games, so not an expert.
In any case, as long as the game's clear, and lets you have fun, it sounds like a winner. I still have my copy of Aria, Canticle of the Monomyth. It has some cool ideas, bug GOD is it impenetrable.
posted by Spike Glee at 7:57 AM on January 18 [2 favorites]
After some 50 years of TTRPGs, I find “leveling mechanics” just odd. I know some people really love them, and I won’t yuck their yum, but it seems such an antiquated mechanic to retain…
I keep thinking it might be fun to run Dungeon World, but then I remember Hesrt is right there….
posted by GenjiandProust at 8:50 AM on January 18 [1 favorite]
I keep thinking it might be fun to run Dungeon World, but then I remember Hesrt is right there….
posted by GenjiandProust at 8:50 AM on January 18 [1 favorite]
OK, I've read some more about it, and for innovative, people mean that it's picking up a lot of innovations that other people made and putting them all into one game, and removing a lot of cruft, which seems fair enough.
Also, apparently once you fail casting a spell, you can't cast it again, until certain conditions are met, like having a long rest, which is interesting.
I'm not sure that it'd be my preferred game, but it sounds like a better choice than D&D, especially with Hasbro's fuckery of the last couple of years.
posted by Spike Glee at 10:56 AM on January 18 [1 favorite]
Also, apparently once you fail casting a spell, you can't cast it again, until certain conditions are met, like having a long rest, which is interesting.
I'm not sure that it'd be my preferred game, but it sounds like a better choice than D&D, especially with Hasbro's fuckery of the last couple of years.
posted by Spike Glee at 10:56 AM on January 18 [1 favorite]
Also, apparently once you fail casting a spell, you can't cast it again, until certain conditions are met, like having a long rest, which is interesting.
That's a common thing in some YA novels. A character can deplete their store of magic, and have to rest in order to "rebuild" their force. Kind of a refractory period, but for magic.
posted by Thorzdad at 11:34 AM on January 18 [2 favorites]
That's a common thing in some YA novels. A character can deplete their store of magic, and have to rest in order to "rebuild" their force. Kind of a refractory period, but for magic.
posted by Thorzdad at 11:34 AM on January 18 [2 favorites]
I grew up on Holmes Basic (got the Basic box set for Christmas 1979), and Shadowdark plays in a way that feels so true to very early D&D, but without all the lookup tables and inconsistent weirdness. It is so artfully designed that it took me a while to understand how deeply all the mechanics mesh and reinforce one another.
Light is crucial to survival, and torches last an hour in real time (you can combine 3 torches at a campsite to make a fire that lasts 8 game hours for resting purposes). No player characters can see in the dark. Gear slots are limited by strength, so carrying torches into danger is a must. Carrying treasure out is essential to gaining experience, so as torches are consumed hopefully you are filling those empty slots with valuables. But sometimes you have to make hard decisions about what to carry.
Magic can create light, too (also for an hour of real time), and other useful things, but you have to roll to cast. If you fail that roll you can’t try again until the next day (in game). But if you succeed you can keep casting as long as you keep succeeding. It makes spells feel powerful but also vulnerable. Can you afford to make the attempt? Or save that spell for when you might need it more? Healing is important because there’s no resurrection magic (although death at 0 hp is not instantaneous).
If you end up with more treasure than you can spend on gear (remember, limited slots), you can invest it into carousing, a chance for more experience points. When you level up, you get slightly stronger but you don’t really get new abilities (other than spellcasters getting new spells). What you do get is randomly rolled, so you discover your character’s progress more than build it. It can be easy to die, but it’s also very quick to roll up a new character and lower level new characters will catch up to survivors before too long.
It’s a different ethos of play than 5e. The modern game gives you a list of powerful abilities you want to use whenever possible, so generally you are trying to choose the optimal action from a fixed menu (you can see how video games have influenced design). OSR encourages creative play, describing what you want to try and trusting the DM to let you have a fair shot. That makes it very accessible to newcomers because there are not a lot of specific rules to remember.
The book is super well organized and laid out. There are lots of random tables to create content on the fly when your players ask to do something unexpected or go off the map. Everything is well tested and I find I prep for sessions less than ever before and improvise more.
Going around the table rather than jumping around initiative order is so much easier. A round lasts as long as it takes, and sometimes that means it takes five minutes of real time for a few seconds in game (combat rounds) and sometimes it takes five minutes of real time for fifteen minutes of exploring and searching in game. So a spell that lasts five rounds can be shorter or longer in game, but is easy to track at the table (and fairly easy to gauge how useful it will be).
I was skeptical about another old school system when I first heard about it, but I think Kelsey is a design genius and she’s also a very responsive and kind person. I’ve played Shadowdark pretty much exclusively for over a year, and it works great for both one-shots and long campaigns. There’s a great community on Discord. The system and its author deserve all the awards and attention they’ve been getting. It’s one of those rare creations that truly does live up to the hype.
posted by rikschell at 12:27 PM on January 18 [9 favorites]
Light is crucial to survival, and torches last an hour in real time (you can combine 3 torches at a campsite to make a fire that lasts 8 game hours for resting purposes). No player characters can see in the dark. Gear slots are limited by strength, so carrying torches into danger is a must. Carrying treasure out is essential to gaining experience, so as torches are consumed hopefully you are filling those empty slots with valuables. But sometimes you have to make hard decisions about what to carry.
Magic can create light, too (also for an hour of real time), and other useful things, but you have to roll to cast. If you fail that roll you can’t try again until the next day (in game). But if you succeed you can keep casting as long as you keep succeeding. It makes spells feel powerful but also vulnerable. Can you afford to make the attempt? Or save that spell for when you might need it more? Healing is important because there’s no resurrection magic (although death at 0 hp is not instantaneous).
If you end up with more treasure than you can spend on gear (remember, limited slots), you can invest it into carousing, a chance for more experience points. When you level up, you get slightly stronger but you don’t really get new abilities (other than spellcasters getting new spells). What you do get is randomly rolled, so you discover your character’s progress more than build it. It can be easy to die, but it’s also very quick to roll up a new character and lower level new characters will catch up to survivors before too long.
It’s a different ethos of play than 5e. The modern game gives you a list of powerful abilities you want to use whenever possible, so generally you are trying to choose the optimal action from a fixed menu (you can see how video games have influenced design). OSR encourages creative play, describing what you want to try and trusting the DM to let you have a fair shot. That makes it very accessible to newcomers because there are not a lot of specific rules to remember.
The book is super well organized and laid out. There are lots of random tables to create content on the fly when your players ask to do something unexpected or go off the map. Everything is well tested and I find I prep for sessions less than ever before and improvise more.
Going around the table rather than jumping around initiative order is so much easier. A round lasts as long as it takes, and sometimes that means it takes five minutes of real time for a few seconds in game (combat rounds) and sometimes it takes five minutes of real time for fifteen minutes of exploring and searching in game. So a spell that lasts five rounds can be shorter or longer in game, but is easy to track at the table (and fairly easy to gauge how useful it will be).
I was skeptical about another old school system when I first heard about it, but I think Kelsey is a design genius and she’s also a very responsive and kind person. I’ve played Shadowdark pretty much exclusively for over a year, and it works great for both one-shots and long campaigns. There’s a great community on Discord. The system and its author deserve all the awards and attention they’ve been getting. It’s one of those rare creations that truly does live up to the hype.
posted by rikschell at 12:27 PM on January 18 [9 favorites]
The torch thing in darkness is interesting in that it would keep everyone very focussed which is often a problem when playing D&D. But I assume torches are for only when you are in complete darkness, like an unlit dungeon? That's not super often in D&D, unless this game system is a pure dungeon crawl. A castle during the day with windows and wall sconces and candles can be a "dungeon" for instance, which would rule out the need for torches... or in a forest during the day, or in a city.
I rally only know 5e, though I started a million years ago with AD&D, but played that just a bit in the '80s. Took a 35 year hiatus. Honestly, 5e is so simple I don't think it needs to b more simplified that that... in my opinion.
My issue with 5e (and the way it's generally played today) is that it's (usually) too easy and too character focussed. I know players who order a $40 custom mini for their new characters when they start a campaign! D&D used to be a meat grinder... now people just expect to stay alive until the campaign ends. People fall in love with their 1st level creations and create big back stories and artwork and consider long story arcs! Much more story-focussed today versus the old days. I'm generalizing, but that's the way it seems to me.
(I don't want a pure meat-grinder campaign but some kind of better balance might be good)
posted by SoberHighland at 2:32 PM on January 18 [1 favorite]
I rally only know 5e, though I started a million years ago with AD&D, but played that just a bit in the '80s. Took a 35 year hiatus. Honestly, 5e is so simple I don't think it needs to b more simplified that that... in my opinion.
My issue with 5e (and the way it's generally played today) is that it's (usually) too easy and too character focussed. I know players who order a $40 custom mini for their new characters when they start a campaign! D&D used to be a meat grinder... now people just expect to stay alive until the campaign ends. People fall in love with their 1st level creations and create big back stories and artwork and consider long story arcs! Much more story-focussed today versus the old days. I'm generalizing, but that's the way it seems to me.
(I don't want a pure meat-grinder campaign but some kind of better balance might be good)
posted by SoberHighland at 2:32 PM on January 18 [1 favorite]
If the players don't get out of the dungeon before their characters' torches run out, they are literally eaten by gnolls grues, so it's pretty hardcore.
I've played only one game of Shadowdark, but I have been gravitating to rules-light systems lately, and it was a lot of fun. I recognized elements from two of my other favorite games, Mork Bork and Dungeon Crawl Classics, and the torch mechanic keeps things moving.
posted by Gelatin at 2:36 PM on January 18 [1 favorite]
I've played only one game of Shadowdark, but I have been gravitating to rules-light systems lately, and it was a lot of fun. I recognized elements from two of my other favorite games, Mork Bork and Dungeon Crawl Classics, and the torch mechanic keeps things moving.
posted by Gelatin at 2:36 PM on January 18 [1 favorite]
Reading this, the game doesn't use spell slots? As long as the MU knows the spell, they can cast it as often as they like, assuming they make their casting roll? (And if they don't, things could get pretty bad.)
Yup, and that same mechanic is used in Dungeon Crawl Classics, another OSR game.
posted by Gelatin at 2:42 PM on January 18 [1 favorite]
Yup, and that same mechanic is used in Dungeon Crawl Classics, another OSR game.
posted by Gelatin at 2:42 PM on January 18 [1 favorite]
I also found the emphasis on torches weird. I guess that game doesn't have "continual light."
Correct. If you're doing traditional dungeon-crawls , the darkness is now a clear and present danger, because no characters can see in the dark. But the monsters can.
It's a pretty canny pacing mechanism.
SoberHighLand, you should check out Shadowdark. It's more old school fantasy than 5e, which is honestly superheroic fantasy, particularly at higher levels. There are dials you can tweak on difficulty. I'm glad you found 5e so simple, but a lot of people's experiences are more like Thorzdad - sprawling rules and too many options that can lead to everything bogging down.
posted by canine epigram at 7:48 PM on January 18 [2 favorites]
Correct. If you're doing traditional dungeon-crawls , the darkness is now a clear and present danger, because no characters can see in the dark. But the monsters can.
It's a pretty canny pacing mechanism.
SoberHighLand, you should check out Shadowdark. It's more old school fantasy than 5e, which is honestly superheroic fantasy, particularly at higher levels. There are dials you can tweak on difficulty. I'm glad you found 5e so simple, but a lot of people's experiences are more like Thorzdad - sprawling rules and too many options that can lead to everything bogging down.
posted by canine epigram at 7:48 PM on January 18 [2 favorites]
And you can definitely do adventures that aren't in the dark, but dungeon crawling (or exploring underground cities, or other dark spaces) are the meat of the game, with other options for sides and spice.
posted by rikschell at 7:55 PM on January 18 [1 favorite]
posted by rikschell at 7:55 PM on January 18 [1 favorite]
OK, I've read some more about it, and for innovative, people mean that it's picking up a lot of innovations that other people made and putting them all into one game, and removing a lot of cruft, which seems fair enough.
I haven't read the system fully yet, but I didn't know if I've seen the torch thing, the initiative or carousing systems elsewhere. Would I say it's hugely innovative? Nah. But that's not the point. The innovation to me is in the implementation rather than the particulars. It's streamlined and familiar to gamers of a certain age. Do not undersell the value of a tightly-written and well-organized game book where you don't have to hunt for the information you need.
posted by canine epigram at 8:13 PM on January 18 [1 favorite]
Would I say it's hugely innovative? Nah. But that's not the point. The innovation to me is in the implementation rather than the particulars.
Spot on.
It’s a bit like the iPod, which also didn’t do anything unprecedented. Its achievement was a tasteful distilling and organizing of the user experience to where a large new audience could get into it.
posted by Lemkin at 7:18 AM on January 19
Spot on.
It’s a bit like the iPod, which also didn’t do anything unprecedented. Its achievement was a tasteful distilling and organizing of the user experience to where a large new audience could get into it.
posted by Lemkin at 7:18 AM on January 19
I grew up on Holmes Basic (got the Basic box set for Christmas 1979), and Shadowdark plays in a way that feels so true to very early D&D, but without all the lookup tables and inconsistent weirdness.
Basic d&d (technically BECMI) was such an elegant and well designed system. Coming to it as a snotty 11 year old i naturally preferred the more grown up seeming Advanced D&D, but with adult eyes that's a barely coherent pile of half developed rule ideas that gygax shoved out the door to edge Arneson out of the company (admittedly with a great selection of magic items and monsters). Basic was actually designed, and i kind of wish I'd played that instead.
posted by Sebmojo at 11:15 AM on January 19 [1 favorite]
There are so many OSR alternatives, hard to find time to explore them. My favourites:
Knave
Basic fantasy
posted by zgx at 2:26 PM on January 19
Knave
Basic fantasy
posted by zgx at 2:26 PM on January 19
Moldvay Basic was an elegant and well designed system. Holmes Basic was a poorly stitched together revision of white box OD&D that was servicable as long as you had a good imagination.
posted by rikschell at 2:42 PM on January 19
posted by rikschell at 2:42 PM on January 19
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