New Zealand to loosen visa rules for digital nomads
January 27, 2025 6:40 AM Subscribe
New Zealand to loosen visa rules for digital nomads.
The digital nomads include visitors such as IT specialists, as long as they are not receiving any income from NZ sources.
A bunch of countries in Caribbean have been doing this for a while, and it's a good policy. If you're not taking a job from a local, but you're spending money there, it's all gravy for the host country. It really doesn't go far enough, of course; given the American [gestures vaguely at everything], the first reasonably pluralist country that decided to announce a fast-track immigration program for scientists, researchers and engineers is going to absolutely run the table on the 21st century.
posted by mhoye at 7:48 AM on January 27 [14 favorites]
posted by mhoye at 7:48 AM on January 27 [14 favorites]
My short, not very edifying story about this is: my non-profit had an IT firm, and we were assigned a Guy who maintained our server. Then Guy went independent, and my executive director decided we would keep him. I think we paid him a monthly retainer. He got harder and harder to reach, and when my ED left (2023 SUCKED for us!) we had an even tougher time finding him. This was bad, since my ED had been the main person keeping an eye on the server and when he was gone we needed more help from Guy. It took a couple of years for us to figure it out, but finally we realized he had moved to South Africa.
It was a real problem in 2024. We found new, local IT help only after a major server crash and lolllll the backup we used to restore it was from March 2023 and a whole year's work was gone.
Anyway that's my experience with digital nomads. I hope SA is treating Guy well, I guess.
posted by Lawn Beaver at 7:56 AM on January 27 [2 favorites]
It was a real problem in 2024. We found new, local IT help only after a major server crash and lolllll the backup we used to restore it was from March 2023 and a whole year's work was gone.
Anyway that's my experience with digital nomads. I hope SA is treating Guy well, I guess.
posted by Lawn Beaver at 7:56 AM on January 27 [2 favorites]
Having one of those jobs where I can still work full remote, the biggest problem I could see with this is the large time zone difference. If you're in South America, it's not any worse than having a team split between EST and PST. If you don't mind working evenings, a western timezone in Europe isn't even too bad. However, in New Zealand, you would be waking up right around the same time people stateside are finishing their days. If you're not around during normal working hours and thus not available for the bulk of meetings, management starts to wonder why they can't just spec whatever objectives out and outsource it somewhere else...
posted by ayerarcturus at 8:07 AM on January 27 [2 favorites]
posted by ayerarcturus at 8:07 AM on January 27 [2 favorites]
The remote work revolution has flipped so that tech companies are now offshoring all their skilled labor to low-income countries, while the few remaining onshore workers are required to RTO.
Really? Comparing to the peak of remote work (during a world-changing pandemic) looks like a return to RTO, but there are wayyyyy more remote tech jobs than there were, say, 5 years ago.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 8:44 AM on January 27 [7 favorites]
Really? Comparing to the peak of remote work (during a world-changing pandemic) looks like a return to RTO, but there are wayyyyy more remote tech jobs than there were, say, 5 years ago.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 8:44 AM on January 27 [7 favorites]
I worked QA for a team in Australia while I was in the states and it was great, we had a little overlap in the morning to sync up, then they’d hand over builds and leave. We’d spend the rest of our day breaking stuff and put bugs in. They’d come in while we were sleeping and get to work fixing.
Haven’t had a similar since going remote, but still think the upside is there.
posted by astrospective at 8:57 AM on January 27 [5 favorites]
Haven’t had a similar since going remote, but still think the upside is there.
posted by astrospective at 8:57 AM on January 27 [5 favorites]
Is NZ cheap and sunny enough?
posted by Phanx at 9:16 AM on January 27 [1 favorite]
posted by Phanx at 9:16 AM on January 27 [1 favorite]
If you're not taking a job from a local, but you're spending money there, it's all gravy for the host country
I think it's more complicated than that - if people have more buying power than locals that has the potential to distort some local markets, such as housing (and NZ already has a huge housing crisis). Hopefully any negative effects here will be outweighed by positive ones.
NZ's government is currently a right-wing coalition that includes, among others, a party trying to "reinterpret" the Treaty of Waitangi, so it would be interesting to hear from someone in NZ how this plays into the rest of the political context there.
posted by trig at 9:18 AM on January 27 [10 favorites]
I think it's more complicated than that - if people have more buying power than locals that has the potential to distort some local markets, such as housing (and NZ already has a huge housing crisis). Hopefully any negative effects here will be outweighed by positive ones.
NZ's government is currently a right-wing coalition that includes, among others, a party trying to "reinterpret" the Treaty of Waitangi, so it would be interesting to hear from someone in NZ how this plays into the rest of the political context there.
posted by trig at 9:18 AM on January 27 [10 favorites]
I'm no expert (other than being a Kiwi, living here for 5 decades and having experienced life living in a few different countries for a few years in my time) and these are just 'reckons' so take it with a dollop of salt...
Over the early Covid years we had a few wealthy nomads 'appear' - the Google exec ('NZTE won't say why it helped a Google Exec come to NZ'), a Valve guy, people mentioned in another recent MeFi thread and of course the vampire billionaire (several years prior to Covid). I suspect deals are/were cut to streamline the wealthy into the country. No idea what the cost/benefit analysis would look like; I'm guessing taxes aren't being paid locally.
I think NZ has always been a lifestyle location for people on the back-packer trail - the tourism/service industry in particular makes extensive use of people from overseas to work in pubs, restaurants, farms, on ski-fields etc etc. In addition it has been using migrant workers for seasonal stuff like fruit/vege picking. This type of work would often be low-waged, incur taxes etc (unless paid under the table) & their may be reciprocal arrangements for public services like health-care with their country of origin.
It would be interesting to see the cost/benefit analysis the conservative coalition government have done (if any) for this Digital Nomad scheme. At the point it becomes a net positive to the country, is it significant enough to impact cost of living for locals - as pointed out up-thread, housing is scarce/expensive already to rent/buy, and public services are being 'run-down'. Which country will Digital Nomads pay taxes in? What public services will be utilised or will they leverage private health-insurance schemes (which the right-wing are pushing towards as they decimate the public system)?
Will also be interesting to see if this Digital Nomad scheme is a pathway to permanent residency and voting (if you have PR, or Citizenship + live in NZ continuously for 12mths you can vote) and if there is a risk of revoking the scheme that might drive donations/support for conservative parties.
TBF, people from ANZ (Aotearoa New Zealand) have been traveling overseas for work and play for several decades, often after school or university. as an 'OE' (Overseas Experience). Many stay overseas and settle or they bring their experience/savings/family back to NZ to settle.
More recently, net migration has seen a lot of ANZ people move overseas in search of a better life as cost of living increases, services decline (health, welfare, education etc). inflation increases, wages stagnate etc etc.
ANZ also has a number of problems to address - the current conservative coalition government seems to be working pretty hard to exploit the countries resources (people, land, water, remaining public infrastructure etc) but not a lot to make it a more liveable country. So a Digital Nomad scheme feels like lazy policy.
It does sometimes feel like NZ will turn into a playground for the wealthy and the locals will be priced out of living here. But that seems to be a global trend... free movement of capital and people (if you have the money)...
posted by phigmov at 10:19 AM on January 27 [7 favorites]
Over the early Covid years we had a few wealthy nomads 'appear' - the Google exec ('NZTE won't say why it helped a Google Exec come to NZ'), a Valve guy, people mentioned in another recent MeFi thread and of course the vampire billionaire (several years prior to Covid). I suspect deals are/were cut to streamline the wealthy into the country. No idea what the cost/benefit analysis would look like; I'm guessing taxes aren't being paid locally.
I think NZ has always been a lifestyle location for people on the back-packer trail - the tourism/service industry in particular makes extensive use of people from overseas to work in pubs, restaurants, farms, on ski-fields etc etc. In addition it has been using migrant workers for seasonal stuff like fruit/vege picking. This type of work would often be low-waged, incur taxes etc (unless paid under the table) & their may be reciprocal arrangements for public services like health-care with their country of origin.
It would be interesting to see the cost/benefit analysis the conservative coalition government have done (if any) for this Digital Nomad scheme. At the point it becomes a net positive to the country, is it significant enough to impact cost of living for locals - as pointed out up-thread, housing is scarce/expensive already to rent/buy, and public services are being 'run-down'. Which country will Digital Nomads pay taxes in? What public services will be utilised or will they leverage private health-insurance schemes (which the right-wing are pushing towards as they decimate the public system)?
Will also be interesting to see if this Digital Nomad scheme is a pathway to permanent residency and voting (if you have PR, or Citizenship + live in NZ continuously for 12mths you can vote) and if there is a risk of revoking the scheme that might drive donations/support for conservative parties.
TBF, people from ANZ (Aotearoa New Zealand) have been traveling overseas for work and play for several decades, often after school or university. as an 'OE' (Overseas Experience). Many stay overseas and settle or they bring their experience/savings/family back to NZ to settle.
More recently, net migration has seen a lot of ANZ people move overseas in search of a better life as cost of living increases, services decline (health, welfare, education etc). inflation increases, wages stagnate etc etc.
ANZ also has a number of problems to address - the current conservative coalition government seems to be working pretty hard to exploit the countries resources (people, land, water, remaining public infrastructure etc) but not a lot to make it a more liveable country. So a Digital Nomad scheme feels like lazy policy.
It does sometimes feel like NZ will turn into a playground for the wealthy and the locals will be priced out of living here. But that seems to be a global trend... free movement of capital and people (if you have the money)...
posted by phigmov at 10:19 AM on January 27 [7 favorites]
trig Not cheap anymore since the housing market was financialised which has caused widespread homelessness (but it suits our new fundie overlords - we call the new PM Mr Seven Houses). Not sunny this year, certainly not at my latitude. Their undermining of the Treaty (it's pure racism claiming Maori get special treatment) is resulting in violence, it's what they want as they will then weaponise the police against us. It is fragile here at the moment.
NZ spans 9° of latitude from sea level to alpine so you can find most climates, often all in one day and place!
trig very far right wing, half and half prosperity gospel and QAnon anti-science and all racists. About as mad as that Milei guy.
A town nearby is rumoured to have a significant part of pop. working remotely to offshore - but not nomads, these are buying and building houses. But it's parasitic as most will be avoiding tax by doing this in other places too, and (in the main) they don't take part in society.
Personally I'm not keen on non-travellers supported from offshore roaming the country (they are not real tourists in the normal sense) - we've had a lot of Bannon meddlers here since Covid as part of installing this mad bad government.
It will be good for real travellers though as NZ really needs at least 6 months if you are cycling, and a year plus if walking, and many people do 3 months and leave and return to continue their trip. This reduces the cost of that.
posted by unearthed at 10:20 AM on January 27 [2 favorites]
NZ spans 9° of latitude from sea level to alpine so you can find most climates, often all in one day and place!
trig very far right wing, half and half prosperity gospel and QAnon anti-science and all racists. About as mad as that Milei guy.
A town nearby is rumoured to have a significant part of pop. working remotely to offshore - but not nomads, these are buying and building houses. But it's parasitic as most will be avoiding tax by doing this in other places too, and (in the main) they don't take part in society.
Personally I'm not keen on non-travellers supported from offshore roaming the country (they are not real tourists in the normal sense) - we've had a lot of Bannon meddlers here since Covid as part of installing this mad bad government.
It will be good for real travellers though as NZ really needs at least 6 months if you are cycling, and a year plus if walking, and many people do 3 months and leave and return to continue their trip. This reduces the cost of that.
posted by unearthed at 10:20 AM on January 27 [2 favorites]
Recently finished a large (for us) project. We had about 20 people working on it, everybody remote (there's just a tiny 3-person office available for the directors). We had people in Santiago, in southern Chile (in Chiloé, which is a very cool island you should visit), and in the UK. It worked great because we hire good people and trust them to do their job. If I couldn't trust them, if I felt I needed to be looking over their shoulders, I'd look for other people.
posted by signal at 11:09 AM on January 27 [2 favorites]
posted by signal at 11:09 AM on January 27 [2 favorites]
More on topic, 99% Invisible recently had a show on the downsides of 'digital nomads' (why do white people always need to invent a different word for 'migrant' when it applies to them?):
https://99percentinvisible.org/episode/594-medellin-revisited/
posted by signal at 11:12 AM on January 27 [4 favorites]
https://99percentinvisible.org/episode/594-medellin-revisited/
posted by signal at 11:12 AM on January 27 [4 favorites]
I live (and pay taxes) in NZ and have worked in the US remotely for the past 2 decades. We're pretty close to the West Coast (3 hours in our summer, 5 in winter) there's lots of overlap if you're prepared to get up a little early.
Taxes are generally lower here than the US Fed+State (even with free medical), really if you want to more than come for a long stay you want to get a work visa.
However I think this announcement by the government is pretty silly, people have been doing this for ages (coming here on a tourist visa and working remotely), no one's been enforcing the law, there's no practical way to do so, IMHO making this announcement has no practical effect on our economy, this is just a government that has tipped our economy into recession because of its policies of austerity looking for some window dressing to make it look like they are doing something, when they aren't really ("but look the deckchairs are really lined up neatly now!"). The sooner they're gone the better
posted by mbo at 11:49 AM on January 27 [6 favorites]
Taxes are generally lower here than the US Fed+State (even with free medical), really if you want to more than come for a long stay you want to get a work visa.
However I think this announcement by the government is pretty silly, people have been doing this for ages (coming here on a tourist visa and working remotely), no one's been enforcing the law, there's no practical way to do so, IMHO making this announcement has no practical effect on our economy, this is just a government that has tipped our economy into recession because of its policies of austerity looking for some window dressing to make it look like they are doing something, when they aren't really ("but look the deckchairs are really lined up neatly now!"). The sooner they're gone the better
posted by mbo at 11:49 AM on January 27 [6 favorites]
I worked QA for a team in Australia while I was in the states and it was great, we had a little overlap in the morning to sync up, then they’d hand over builds and leave. We’d spend the rest of our day breaking stuff and put bugs in. They’d come in while we were sleeping and get to work fixing.
I do QA handoffs for a firm working in Eastern, Central, Berlin, and India. The ideal residence for me time wise would be the Azores.
And yes, I'd totally do it if it didn't involve relocating a family of 5.
posted by ocschwar at 12:57 PM on January 27
However I think this announcement by the government is pretty silly, people have been doing this for ages (coming here on a tourist visa and working remotely), no one's been enforcing the law,
I was wondering about that. It's the sort of thing a nation might accidentally ban when they draft new immigration law, but not the sort of thing that they'd explicitly ban. I mean, if a tourist is logging in to work and staying the whole length of his tourist visa, why would you care? It;s just more money coming to your country.
posted by ocschwar at 1:06 PM on January 27
I was wondering about that. It's the sort of thing a nation might accidentally ban when they draft new immigration law, but not the sort of thing that they'd explicitly ban. I mean, if a tourist is logging in to work and staying the whole length of his tourist visa, why would you care? It;s just more money coming to your country.
posted by ocschwar at 1:06 PM on January 27
Probably off-topic but depending on the nature of the work being performed you may find organisations have setup Conditional Access policies for authenticating access to systems (above and beyond VPN, this can often include anything where an identity can be federated for single-sign-on without using a VPN) which don't allow access from certain countries and regions. Worth investigating depending on who your employer or prospective employer is likely to be.
posted by phigmov at 1:24 PM on January 27 [3 favorites]
posted by phigmov at 1:24 PM on January 27 [3 favorites]
If the work you are doing is truly remote- with no need for physical human presence, it has a VERY low friction to become outsourced to another, cheaper remote operator essentially instantaneously, at the flick of a switch.
posted by lalochezia at 7:14 PM on January 27 [2 favorites]
posted by lalochezia at 7:14 PM on January 27 [2 favorites]
the first reasonably pluralist country that decided to announce a fast-track immigration program for scientists, researchers and engineers is going to absolutely run the table on the 21st century.
As a Kiwi research scientist/engineer who had to leave because I couldn't find livable work in my field, I'm going to be pretty damn salty if the place gets overrun with Yanks while I'm away. We already have the 'overseas training is better than our training and overseas people are better than our people' problem hitting Kiwis high (a degree from a shitty USA college must be better than a degree from Otago, right?) and low (we're not generally willing to accept the appallingly substandard wages and conditions in e.g. nursing long term so those jobs are largely filled by expats). So I'm overseas getting overseas qualifications and paying out the nose for them so I can hopefully come home someday.
Yanks looking for somewhere to hide until 2028 means an already oversaturated job market just stays oversaturated until 2028 or later, and I'll probably get home to find it's full of gun toting gum chewing loud... people... looking for the nearest Target (it's in Australia, as is the sunny weather, why not head there over the bridge you're so sure exists) and willing to take lower wages than are actually livable in order to stay out of the USA.
Also, try collecting tax off digital nomads. Nightmare.
I'm cranky and homesick and worried about the state of the world and I don't like this government and USAmericans looking at Aotearoa as some kind of bolthole just for them instead of like, a country in its own right with its own problems and culture, is just the last straw.
posted by ngaiotonga at 12:44 AM on January 28 [8 favorites]
As a Kiwi research scientist/engineer who had to leave because I couldn't find livable work in my field, I'm going to be pretty damn salty if the place gets overrun with Yanks while I'm away. We already have the 'overseas training is better than our training and overseas people are better than our people' problem hitting Kiwis high (a degree from a shitty USA college must be better than a degree from Otago, right?) and low (we're not generally willing to accept the appallingly substandard wages and conditions in e.g. nursing long term so those jobs are largely filled by expats). So I'm overseas getting overseas qualifications and paying out the nose for them so I can hopefully come home someday.
Yanks looking for somewhere to hide until 2028 means an already oversaturated job market just stays oversaturated until 2028 or later, and I'll probably get home to find it's full of gun toting gum chewing loud... people... looking for the nearest Target (it's in Australia, as is the sunny weather, why not head there over the bridge you're so sure exists) and willing to take lower wages than are actually livable in order to stay out of the USA.
Also, try collecting tax off digital nomads. Nightmare.
I'm cranky and homesick and worried about the state of the world and I don't like this government and USAmericans looking at Aotearoa as some kind of bolthole just for them instead of like, a country in its own right with its own problems and culture, is just the last straw.
posted by ngaiotonga at 12:44 AM on January 28 [8 favorites]
If the work you are doing is truly remote- with no need for physical human presence, it has a VERY low friction to become outsourced to another, cheaper remote operator essentially instantaneously, at the flick of a switch.
No? For tech jobs the talent pool is just better in the US. The US attracts higher skilled tech workers from around the globe, a big tech worker who has worked at a FAANG is worth 5-100 times as much as a mediocre one, the former are mostly in the US, etc.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 6:44 AM on January 28
Working remotely is easy. Interviewing remotely, not so easy. That's why tech hubs are still tech hubs right now.
posted by ocschwar at 10:27 AM on January 28
posted by ocschwar at 10:27 AM on January 28
As mbo said, this is something that has been going on for ages; people have just been staying for a shorter period of time due to visa limitations. When we were visiting NZ on tourist visas in 2020, COVID happened and we got locked down — but since my work could be done online, I worked remotely. The NZ government kept extending our visas, and my sense was that they were happy to have digital nomads stay in country as we were doing touristy things and helping to keep some of that industry afloat.
NZ is a good match with West Coast US in NZ summer/US winter. Once the clocks shift it's rough, because 9am LA time is 4am Auckland time.
There are a couple of different types of digital nomads. Some are doing it as an arbitrage thing; if they are making US money but living in Thailand, they can save a lot of money. So they get an apartment and live as if they were residents. (Some choose to live on a shoestring; others choose to live in a nomad bubble that keeps them from encountering much of what local life is really like.) Even with the current exchange rate, that arbitrage does not work for NZ (unless they're freedom camping, but needing a stable Internet connection really precludes that).
Other nomads do it because they want to see the world at a slower pace but can't do it fiscally if they are not working, so they work when they need to and then spend their money on being tourists (eating out, visiting the sights, etc.) Those are the kinds of people that this visa is betting on. Whether it will pay off is the big question. And, yeah, it has the potential to make the housing crisis worse, because the people coming on those visas will want long-stay options, not the Park Hyatt Auckland.
posted by rednikki at 10:37 AM on January 28 [1 favorite]
NZ is a good match with West Coast US in NZ summer/US winter. Once the clocks shift it's rough, because 9am LA time is 4am Auckland time.
There are a couple of different types of digital nomads. Some are doing it as an arbitrage thing; if they are making US money but living in Thailand, they can save a lot of money. So they get an apartment and live as if they were residents. (Some choose to live on a shoestring; others choose to live in a nomad bubble that keeps them from encountering much of what local life is really like.) Even with the current exchange rate, that arbitrage does not work for NZ (unless they're freedom camping, but needing a stable Internet connection really precludes that).
Other nomads do it because they want to see the world at a slower pace but can't do it fiscally if they are not working, so they work when they need to and then spend their money on being tourists (eating out, visiting the sights, etc.) Those are the kinds of people that this visa is betting on. Whether it will pay off is the big question. And, yeah, it has the potential to make the housing crisis worse, because the people coming on those visas will want long-stay options, not the Park Hyatt Auckland.
posted by rednikki at 10:37 AM on January 28 [1 favorite]
ngaiotonga, I've been in tech and partly in academia for decades, and I've worked with my share of Kiwi expats. I've never doubted that Kiwis can punch their weight, and I've never seen anyone else doubt it. And I do hope digital mobility will let Kiwis step into the proverbial ring without leaving NZ in the future. So I hope the sentiments you're putting in are mainly because you are cranky and homesick. If some Yank provoked those, I do apologize.
I'm also surprised you think Americans would keep to our usual swagger after moving to NZ. But much as I would like a bolt hole for myself, and unlike the last time around, New England does not suffice this time, if there's a housing issue in NZ I'll take my laptop somewhere else.
posted by ocschwar at 10:40 AM on January 28 [1 favorite]
I'm also surprised you think Americans would keep to our usual swagger after moving to NZ. But much as I would like a bolt hole for myself, and unlike the last time around, New England does not suffice this time, if there's a housing issue in NZ I'll take my laptop somewhere else.
posted by ocschwar at 10:40 AM on January 28 [1 favorite]
Throwing my kiwi shaped hat in the ring — the West Coast crossover people have mentioned frankly is not enough to support the vision. Calling my family from Europe, let alone doing work is difficult enough. Unless you're offering some sort of overnight turnaround service or something purely asynchronous it is difficult to work with global clients.
posted by socky_puppy at 9:56 AM on January 29 [1 favorite]
posted by socky_puppy at 9:56 AM on January 29 [1 favorite]
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