American Eagle Flight 5342 Crashes in DC
January 29, 2025 8:11 PM Subscribe
A US Army helicopter has collided with American Airlines Flight 5342. AA Flight 5342, operated by PSA Airlines, was en route from Wichita, KS to Ronald Reagan National Airport in Washington, DC. AA Flight 5342 is reported to have carried approximately 60 passengers. Rescue operations are ongoing in the Potomac River area where both aircraft are reported to have crashed.
This is not good. Reagan is too close to everything - including the flight path for military helicopters apparently. The Potomac at night in January is also going to make anyone surviving this a miracle
posted by thecjm at 8:18 PM on January 29 [5 favorites]
posted by thecjm at 8:18 PM on January 29 [5 favorites]
Fucking hell. I've flown in and out of National a million times. I can't imagine.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 8:19 PM on January 29 [8 favorites]
posted by kittens for breakfast at 8:19 PM on January 29 [8 favorites]
The Sikorsky H-60 is an entire family of military helicopters.
For example, a Sikorsky VH-60N White Hawk is used as Marine One.
posted by Lemkin at 8:19 PM on January 29 [3 favorites]
For example, a Sikorsky VH-60N White Hawk is used as Marine One.
posted by Lemkin at 8:19 PM on January 29 [3 favorites]
From American Airlines: "If you believe you may have loved ones on board Flight 5342, call American Airlines toll-free at 800-679-8215."
posted by Lemkin at 8:21 PM on January 29 [1 favorite]
posted by Lemkin at 8:21 PM on January 29 [1 favorite]
From last week: Trump fires heads of TSA, Coast Guard, and guts key safety advisory committee.
posted by mrjohnmuller at 8:23 PM on January 29 [56 favorites]
posted by mrjohnmuller at 8:23 PM on January 29 [56 favorites]
My dad traveled a lot internationally by air when I was a kid in the 70s and 80s. I remember a plane going off the runway in DC into the Potomac in the late 70s/early 80s and being terrified that my parents, who were going on a trip together without me, were going to end up in a crash. The whole thing was so traumatizing that my folks ended up changing their will over the upset (I didn't like the relative who would have received custody of me).
In particular I remember the rescues out of the Potomac in the morning (daylight). Trying to find people at night seems a lot worse. Fingers crossed for all involved: rescuers, survivors, everyone waiting to help or just hear.
posted by gentlyepigrams at 8:23 PM on January 29 [13 favorites]
In particular I remember the rescues out of the Potomac in the morning (daylight). Trying to find people at night seems a lot worse. Fingers crossed for all involved: rescuers, survivors, everyone waiting to help or just hear.
posted by gentlyepigrams at 8:23 PM on January 29 [13 favorites]
CNN reporting that the helicopter was out of Fort Belvoir. (See "Black Hawk that collided with passenger plane had 3 soldiers on board and was from Fort Belvoir" on their live update page here.)
posted by sandrayln at 8:26 PM on January 29 [2 favorites]
posted by sandrayln at 8:26 PM on January 29 [2 favorites]
From last week: Trump fires heads of TSA, Coast Guard, and guts key safety advisory committee.
No mention of this in the NYTimes.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 8:32 PM on January 29 [24 favorites]
No mention of this in the NYTimes.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 8:32 PM on January 29 [24 favorites]
The Wikipedia article on "List of American Airlines accidents and incidents" has already been updated.
posted by Lemkin at 8:32 PM on January 29 [1 favorite]
posted by Lemkin at 8:32 PM on January 29 [1 favorite]
I am heartbroken. I love going to Gravelly Point to watch the airplanes land at DCA - it’s like they are performing an airborne ballet. I always marvel at it. All it takes is a tiny wrong step and this is what happens… The local news say that some number of people have been rescued from the Potomac, and at least it’s not as bitterly cold here as it has been. What a disaster, thinking about everyone affected and trying to send them strength.
posted by gemmy at 8:34 PM on January 29 [4 favorites]
posted by gemmy at 8:34 PM on January 29 [4 favorites]
This is sad. The really sad thing is that any airline pilot will tell you that DCA has been operating well above its safe capacity for years, but certain congresspersons insist on adding more flights.
posted by phliar at 8:46 PM on January 29 [21 favorites]
posted by phliar at 8:46 PM on January 29 [21 favorites]
I believe Sens Warner and Kaine have opposed adding slots to DCA. No surprise that arch-villain Cruz is one of the "more flights!" crowd.
posted by phliar at 8:56 PM on January 29 [12 favorites]
posted by phliar at 8:56 PM on January 29 [12 favorites]
I remember a plane going off the runway in DC into the Potomac in the late 70s/early 80s
I remember this flight too. My dad had been on the flight that took off just before this, and our home at the time looked out over the Potomac, so my mom was in a bit of a state. Information was slow coming back then and my dad never called home that evening, which was normal enough at the time but would have helped calm the nerves, even though she eventually learned it was a different flight that had been involved.
posted by St. Oops at 9:15 PM on January 29 [10 favorites]
I remember this flight too. My dad had been on the flight that took off just before this, and our home at the time looked out over the Potomac, so my mom was in a bit of a state. Information was slow coming back then and my dad never called home that evening, which was normal enough at the time but would have helped calm the nerves, even though she eventually learned it was a different flight that had been involved.
posted by St. Oops at 9:15 PM on January 29 [10 favorites]
I can’t help wondering if one of the people Hegseth removed from the Pentagon is the one who reported flight plans.
posted by corb at 9:25 PM on January 29 [8 favorites]
posted by corb at 9:25 PM on January 29 [8 favorites]
Trump fires heads of TSA, Coast Guard, and guts key safety advisory committee.
I am certain that those incidents have zero relation to this tragedy, and shame on anyone who thinks it is pertinent.
The U.S. has had a truly remarkable series of thankfully mostly unremarkable years of aviation safety, in terms of deadly crashes of passenger jets. I'm sure most people who grew up in the 70s through the 90s recall things of this magnitude happening too often - once per year, perhaps? Yes, safety regulations are written in blood - and just about anyone who has flown commercially (US airlines and beyond) should appreciate all that has been done to make flying safer over the year.
posted by davidmsc at 9:44 PM on January 29 [17 favorites]
I am certain that those incidents have zero relation to this tragedy, and shame on anyone who thinks it is pertinent.
The U.S. has had a truly remarkable series of thankfully mostly unremarkable years of aviation safety, in terms of deadly crashes of passenger jets. I'm sure most people who grew up in the 70s through the 90s recall things of this magnitude happening too often - once per year, perhaps? Yes, safety regulations are written in blood - and just about anyone who has flown commercially (US airlines and beyond) should appreciate all that has been done to make flying safer over the year.
posted by davidmsc at 9:44 PM on January 29 [17 favorites]
.
At the press conference at DCA just now Sen. Moran (R-KS) just said he knows the flight, he's taken the flight and he lobbied American Airlines to have a nonstop flight from Wichita to DCA.
posted by brentajones at 10:04 PM on January 29 [5 favorites]
At the press conference at DCA just now Sen. Moran (R-KS) just said he knows the flight, he's taken the flight and he lobbied American Airlines to have a nonstop flight from Wichita to DCA.
posted by brentajones at 10:04 PM on January 29 [5 favorites]
.
posted by Callisto Prime at 10:05 PM on January 29
posted by Callisto Prime at 10:05 PM on January 29
I am certain that those incidents have zero relation to this tragedy
Except that part of the reason that air travel is so safe (obviously not in this case; I'm speaking broadly) is due to strong regulation and oversight, an environment which is likely to see erosion as more of these sort of cuts become the norm.
posted by axiom at 10:15 PM on January 29 [97 favorites]
Except that part of the reason that air travel is so safe (obviously not in this case; I'm speaking broadly) is due to strong regulation and oversight, an environment which is likely to see erosion as more of these sort of cuts become the norm.
posted by axiom at 10:15 PM on January 29 [97 favorites]
Yes, the safety record of US commercial aviation is great, so much safer than driving. Although all the Boeing issues in recent years, plus Russia shooting down passengers planes probably hasn't helped the public' s general anxiety around flying.
It is obviously too early to assign blame here, but it seems the the passenger plane was on a standard landing approach and the helicopter was under order to keep the plan in site and pass behind.
The TSA issues certainly has nothing to do with this crash, but general understaffing of air traffic controllers is an issues, as well as Senator Cruz and others pushing for more flights into the overcrowded airport.
I am happy the Metro Silver line is finally going to Dulles, but one real solution to overcrowding is expansion of higher speed, high capacity rail. Amsterdam Schiphol airport serves basically the entire country of the Netherlands, but has 20+ trains per hour (that's a train every 3 minutes) connecting to Amsterdam, Rotterdam, The Hauge, Utrecht, and even hourly trains on to Brussels and Paris. Better rail connections could both make Dulles a better hub but also red the need to fly shorter routes.
posted by CostcoCultist at 10:21 PM on January 29 [32 favorites]
It is obviously too early to assign blame here, but it seems the the passenger plane was on a standard landing approach and the helicopter was under order to keep the plan in site and pass behind.
The TSA issues certainly has nothing to do with this crash, but general understaffing of air traffic controllers is an issues, as well as Senator Cruz and others pushing for more flights into the overcrowded airport.
I am happy the Metro Silver line is finally going to Dulles, but one real solution to overcrowding is expansion of higher speed, high capacity rail. Amsterdam Schiphol airport serves basically the entire country of the Netherlands, but has 20+ trains per hour (that's a train every 3 minutes) connecting to Amsterdam, Rotterdam, The Hauge, Utrecht, and even hourly trains on to Brussels and Paris. Better rail connections could both make Dulles a better hub but also red the need to fly shorter routes.
posted by CostcoCultist at 10:21 PM on January 29 [32 favorites]
One of Ronald Reagan's big Presidential triumphs was firing all the striking aircraft controllers and replacing them with trainees.
It broke the power of Labor in the US in complicated ways, and naming that airport after him was a calculated insult to unions in general.
posted by jamjam at 11:30 PM on January 29 [81 favorites]
It broke the power of Labor in the US in complicated ways, and naming that airport after him was a calculated insult to unions in general.
posted by jamjam at 11:30 PM on January 29 [81 favorites]
the safety record of US commercial aviation is great
...while that of the military, not so much. A glance at the two aircrafts' flight paths just before the collision shows the AA flight gently and predictably curving into its runway, while the helicopter is all over the place. The hell were they up to? Remember what happened in 1998, in Italy; and who caused it?
posted by Rash at 11:44 PM on January 29 [11 favorites]
...while that of the military, not so much. A glance at the two aircrafts' flight paths just before the collision shows the AA flight gently and predictably curving into its runway, while the helicopter is all over the place. The hell were they up to? Remember what happened in 1998, in Italy; and who caused it?
posted by Rash at 11:44 PM on January 29 [11 favorites]
'Air Traffic Controllers', I should have said.
posted by jamjam at 11:46 PM on January 29 [1 favorite]
posted by jamjam at 11:46 PM on January 29 [1 favorite]
One possibility that should be considered when this awful incident is investigated is the impact of prior covid infection:
Covid-19 ‘brain fog’ likely factor in near-miss train crash in South Island
posted by mydonkeybenjamin at 11:55 PM on January 29 [7 favorites]
Covid-19 ‘brain fog’ likely factor in near-miss train crash in South Island
posted by mydonkeybenjamin at 11:55 PM on January 29 [7 favorites]
... the impact of prior covid infection:
This is a bit silly. We're 5 years into COVID, so this isn't some new thing. It was a training flight. So the trainers are clueless (or COVID-brained) and the pilot is also COVID affected just randomly even though vaccines have been mandated for a while. This isn't COVID anymore, it's just life.
posted by netowl at 12:32 AM on January 30 [12 favorites]
This is a bit silly. We're 5 years into COVID, so this isn't some new thing. It was a training flight. So the trainers are clueless (or COVID-brained) and the pilot is also COVID affected just randomly even though vaccines have been mandated for a while. This isn't COVID anymore, it's just life.
posted by netowl at 12:32 AM on January 30 [12 favorites]
...while that of the military, not so much. A glance at the two aircrafts' flight paths just before the collision shows the AA flight gently and predictably curving into its runway, while the helicopter is all over the place. The hell were they up to? Remember what happened in 1998, in Italy; and who caused it?
My father was an ATC in both the civilian (was a PATCO striker, even) and military spheres, and he's noted the military is a lot less safety conscious than the FAA, though that also comes down to their operational constraints. Military ATCs deal with fewer planes as well as differing requirements due to the need to balance safety and operational tempo, which is why you'll see the military do things that the civilian sphere would never consider.
I'll have to ask him about his thoughts on this.
posted by NoxAeternum at 1:07 AM on January 30 [7 favorites]
My father was an ATC in both the civilian (was a PATCO striker, even) and military spheres, and he's noted the military is a lot less safety conscious than the FAA, though that also comes down to their operational constraints. Military ATCs deal with fewer planes as well as differing requirements due to the need to balance safety and operational tempo, which is why you'll see the military do things that the civilian sphere would never consider.
I'll have to ask him about his thoughts on this.
posted by NoxAeternum at 1:07 AM on January 30 [7 favorites]
I am certain that those incidents have zero relation to this tragedy, and shame on anyone who thinks it is pertinent.
i’m sorry, “shame on anyone”? in THIS economy?
posted by knock my sock and i'll clean your clock at 2:01 AM on January 30 [38 favorites]
i’m sorry, “shame on anyone”? in THIS economy?
posted by knock my sock and i'll clean your clock at 2:01 AM on January 30 [38 favorites]
Except that part of the reason that air travel is so safe (obviously not in this case; I'm speaking broadly) is due to strong regulation and oversight, an environment which is likely to see erosion as more of these sort of cuts become the norm.
I wish I could favorite this twice. My wife has a good friend who works for the NTSB (she is not a crash investigator herself but she knows a few of them) and the key role they have played in maintaining safety cannot be overstated. Kind of ironic that this accident happened literally only a day after Musk's "fork in the road" email went out to the entire USG including the NTSB and a whole week of dodging DOGE grenades.
posted by photo guy at 2:22 AM on January 30 [41 favorites]
I wish I could favorite this twice. My wife has a good friend who works for the NTSB (she is not a crash investigator herself but she knows a few of them) and the key role they have played in maintaining safety cannot be overstated. Kind of ironic that this accident happened literally only a day after Musk's "fork in the road" email went out to the entire USG including the NTSB and a whole week of dodging DOGE grenades.
posted by photo guy at 2:22 AM on January 30 [41 favorites]
I am certain that those incidents have zero relation to this tragedy, and shame on anyone who thinks it is pertinent.
The utter chaos of the government of the past week with executive orders affecting Federal workers couldn't have a direct causal relationship betwen military and civilian federal employees losing track of each others' planes.
That's what you're saying, right? Cause that still doesn't sound reassuring.
posted by cotterpin at 2:39 AM on January 30 [44 favorites]
The utter chaos of the government of the past week with executive orders affecting Federal workers couldn't have a direct causal relationship betwen military and civilian federal employees losing track of each others' planes.
That's what you're saying, right? Cause that still doesn't sound reassuring.
posted by cotterpin at 2:39 AM on January 30 [44 favorites]
FAA mission: "Our continuing mission is to provide the safest, most efficient aerospace system in the world."
Doesn't help with lots of vacancies, check out https://www.faa.gov/about/key_officials
Also reported today: "Donald Trump fired 100 FAA senior officials today."
posted by rocinante at 2:39 AM on January 30 [21 favorites]
Doesn't help with lots of vacancies, check out https://www.faa.gov/about/key_officials
Also reported today: "Donald Trump fired 100 FAA senior officials today."
posted by rocinante at 2:39 AM on January 30 [21 favorites]
I am certain that those incidents have zero relation to this tragedy, and shame on anyone who thinks it is pertinent.
Possibly not directly, and obviously no one knows what happened yet, but of the top of my head here's some indirect ways they could be related (ordered from most to least direct effects):
-Managers who might have been overseeing on the ground operations were instead in meetings trying to determine what procedures to follow in light of the firings (based on my experience orgs become much less efficient after any major change because everyone spends a while figuring out the new procedures and who is in charge of what).
-The general vibe these firings give off (that no one is safe and it's a bad idea to stick your head above the parapet) meant that someone who normally would have raised an issue with the helicopter flight plan hesitated--"Maybe," they could have thought, "Hegseth cleared this himself and I shouldn't question it?"
-Stress induced by the erosion of norms and the possibility of job losses caused someone somewhere to be operating on not a lot of sleep and so they screwed up.
-The move-fast-and-break-things ethos expressed in these firings was taken to heart by someone and they cut some corners in order to get the helicopter where it needed to go.
In any case, the cynic in me tells me that Hegseth is desperately scanning the personnel files of the service members involved, hoping to find something (their ethnicity, they once voted for Obama, they enjoyed a vacation to San Francisco) that will allow him to pin this on wokeness infecting the military. I'd lay a significant amount of money on that being the narrative that comes out of the White House on this.
posted by nangua at 2:49 AM on January 30 [74 favorites]
Also reported today: "Donald Trump fired 100 FAA senior officials today."
Does anyone have a legitimate news source reporting this? I can totally believe it happened, but all I can find are a few Twitter/Threads posts from random people that don't have any actual info or links.
posted by photo guy at 2:54 AM on January 30 [6 favorites]
Does anyone have a legitimate news source reporting this? I can totally believe it happened, but all I can find are a few Twitter/Threads posts from random people that don't have any actual info or links.
posted by photo guy at 2:54 AM on January 30 [6 favorites]
This is a bit silly. We're 5 years into COVID, so this isn't some new thing. It was a training flight. So the trainers are clueless (or COVID-brained) and the pilot is also COVID affected just randomly even though vaccines have been mandated for a while. This isn't COVID anymore, it's just life.
A recent study found “an association between acute COVID-19 rates and increased car crashes” and “did not find a protective effect of vaccination against increased crash risks, contrary to previous assumptions.” What would be silly would be to exclude covid-induced cognitive impairment from the list of factors that should be investigated in cases like this.
posted by mydonkeybenjamin at 3:19 AM on January 30 [24 favorites]
A recent study found “an association between acute COVID-19 rates and increased car crashes” and “did not find a protective effect of vaccination against increased crash risks, contrary to previous assumptions.” What would be silly would be to exclude covid-induced cognitive impairment from the list of factors that should be investigated in cases like this.
posted by mydonkeybenjamin at 3:19 AM on January 30 [24 favorites]
It's good to remember that accidents like this are the end result of a chain of causes rather than one particular thing. Eliminating oversight, while dangerous, usually doesn't have immediate effects.
.
posted by tommasz at 3:54 AM on January 30 [6 favorites]
.
posted by tommasz at 3:54 AM on January 30 [6 favorites]
. for the dead and wounded.
Coincidentally, I am typing this from JFK airport. I was scheduled to fly into DCA this morning.
posted by doctornemo at 3:58 AM on January 30 [4 favorites]
Coincidentally, I am typing this from JFK airport. I was scheduled to fly into DCA this morning.
posted by doctornemo at 3:58 AM on January 30 [4 favorites]
I am certain that those incidents have zero relation to this tragedy
This has with great justification been piled on a lot already, but not enough. Look, when you create a fog of chaos, chaos happens. "No one could have known it would look like this!" isn't the same statement as "No one could possibly be held responsible for this." They definitely can be, and should be. If you set a dog loose inside a car and the car crashes, it's your fault for setting the dog loose inside the car.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 4:04 AM on January 30 [42 favorites]
This has with great justification been piled on a lot already, but not enough. Look, when you create a fog of chaos, chaos happens. "No one could have known it would look like this!" isn't the same statement as "No one could possibly be held responsible for this." They definitely can be, and should be. If you set a dog loose inside a car and the car crashes, it's your fault for setting the dog loose inside the car.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 4:04 AM on January 30 [42 favorites]
I connect through DCA often when travelling for work, and recently we had to abort a landing because of another plane that would have been in our way on the ground. It wasn't a dramatic maneuver, but definitely an "oh, we're going up now?" that we all noticed. I stopped connecting through Charlotte because it's a scheduling shitshow but have definitely considered taking DCA off my list too. So sad for everyone involved.
posted by Sweetie Darling at 4:07 AM on January 30 [3 favorites]
posted by Sweetie Darling at 4:07 AM on January 30 [3 favorites]
In 2018, Donald Trump was king of the skies, and he made sure to boast about it. "Since taking office, I have been very strict on Commercial Aviation," he crowed on social media. "Good news — it was just reported that there were Zero deaths in 2017, the best and safest year on record."
But since last night's American Airlines crash, Trump has nothing to do with air travel, as he made clear in last night's accusatory post. "…why didn't the helicopter go up or down, or turn. Why didn't the control tower tell the helicopter what to do instead of asking if they saw the plane," the finger-pointing president asked before all of the facts were in (rather than make any consolatory mention of the victims aboard the aircrafts). "This is a bad situation that looks like it should have been prevented. NOT GOOD!!!"
Classic example of taking credit when flying high, but blaming others when things crash and burn. Amazing what a difference a disaster makes.
posted by robbyrobs at 4:20 AM on January 30 [31 favorites]
But since last night's American Airlines crash, Trump has nothing to do with air travel, as he made clear in last night's accusatory post. "…why didn't the helicopter go up or down, or turn. Why didn't the control tower tell the helicopter what to do instead of asking if they saw the plane," the finger-pointing president asked before all of the facts were in (rather than make any consolatory mention of the victims aboard the aircrafts). "This is a bad situation that looks like it should have been prevented. NOT GOOD!!!"
Classic example of taking credit when flying high, but blaming others when things crash and burn. Amazing what a difference a disaster makes.
posted by robbyrobs at 4:20 AM on January 30 [31 favorites]
Before D.C. Airport Collision, Lawmakers Brushed Off Warnings And Boosted Flights
Despite midflight near-misses and dire pleas, airline-bankrolled lawmakers recently expanded flight traffic at Washington’s busy airport.
posted by robbyrobs at 4:23 AM on January 30 [23 favorites]
I remember this flight too. My dad had been on the flight that took off just before this…
I remember it well too; my father was on one of the planes waiting to take off when they shut down the airport. He spent the night there and afterwards we were all glad that his plane never tried to take off in those conditions.
posted by TedW at 4:32 AM on January 30 [4 favorites]
I remember it well too; my father was on one of the planes waiting to take off when they shut down the airport. He spent the night there and afterwards we were all glad that his plane never tried to take off in those conditions.
posted by TedW at 4:32 AM on January 30 [4 favorites]
According to this thread, the plane had many young figure skaters and coaches returning from a national training camp on board
posted by thecjm at 4:38 AM on January 30 [12 favorites]
posted by thecjm at 4:38 AM on January 30 [12 favorites]
We are still obviously in the speculation phase of this, but a friend who is a civilian pilot training to fly commercial said that there is discussion in his channels of military aircraft not being in compliance with the recent required upgrade to ADS-B satellite navigation technology. He noted that if they were flying primarily by instruments, this could make it possible for them to effectively be invisible to one another.
posted by reedbird_hill at 4:41 AM on January 30 [14 favorites]
posted by reedbird_hill at 4:41 AM on January 30 [14 favorites]
The blancolirio Youtube channel is a good place for factual information on airplane incidents in general: this is his first post on this crash. (It's run by a former AF crash investigator; he only posts when there is new information so don't expect a ton of updates on this incident.)
posted by Sand at 4:42 AM on January 30 [7 favorites]
posted by Sand at 4:42 AM on January 30 [7 favorites]
Possibly not directly, and obviously no one knows what happened yet, but of the top of my head here's some indirect ways they could be related (ordered from most to least direct effects):
I work heavy construction. The nature of our business is eventually stuff gets built, the project ends, and everyone gets laid off. But that happens gradually and it is well known that safety is negatively impacted for several days after each round of layoffs as people are distracted because they are talking about the layoffs, anticipating their layoffs, working around a sudden gap in the crew. Managers are working on personnel issues instead of managing crews. Project knowledge is lost which ends up requiring rework (and a mantra is rework is dangerous work). All this for layoffs everyone knows are coming from day one and mostly aren't politically motivated.
Given TFG's attack on DEI, immigration, and the federal workforce I can't imagine any federal employee but especially women, POC, immigrants, or LGBTQ is 100% focused on their task today.
posted by Mitheral at 4:49 AM on January 30 [46 favorites]
I work heavy construction. The nature of our business is eventually stuff gets built, the project ends, and everyone gets laid off. But that happens gradually and it is well known that safety is negatively impacted for several days after each round of layoffs as people are distracted because they are talking about the layoffs, anticipating their layoffs, working around a sudden gap in the crew. Managers are working on personnel issues instead of managing crews. Project knowledge is lost which ends up requiring rework (and a mantra is rework is dangerous work). All this for layoffs everyone knows are coming from day one and mostly aren't politically motivated.
Given TFG's attack on DEI, immigration, and the federal workforce I can't imagine any federal employee but especially women, POC, immigrants, or LGBTQ is 100% focused on their task today.
posted by Mitheral at 4:49 AM on January 30 [46 favorites]
remember covid? Covid-19 ‘brain fog’ likely factor in near-miss train crash in South Island
posted by robbyrobs at 4:51 AM on January 30 [8 favorites]
posted by robbyrobs at 4:51 AM on January 30 [8 favorites]
FAA chief quit Jan 20 following pressure from Elon Musk and nobody has taken his place. The position is currently vacant.
posted by mrjohnmuller at 5:05 AM on January 30 [27 favorites]
posted by mrjohnmuller at 5:05 AM on January 30 [27 favorites]
The general atmosphere of shock and fear in DC is bad enough as it is. That’s compounded by the grief I feel going to work today, right next to the FAA buildings, knowing that tragedy is still unfolding in the Potomac so close by
posted by sizeable beetle at 5:10 AM on January 30 [12 favorites]
posted by sizeable beetle at 5:10 AM on January 30 [12 favorites]
DC Fire and EMS Chief reporting no survivors (WaPo).
posted by sizeable beetle at 5:13 AM on January 30 [4 favorites]
posted by sizeable beetle at 5:13 AM on January 30 [4 favorites]
TFG: "why didn't the helicopter go up or down, or turn?"
The brain of a goddam four year-old.
(That's not true or fair, obviously. Four year-olds generally have no malice.)
posted by DirtyOldTown at 5:18 AM on January 30 [38 favorites]
The brain of a goddam four year-old.
(That's not true or fair, obviously. Four year-olds generally have no malice.)
posted by DirtyOldTown at 5:18 AM on January 30 [38 favorites]
You an always rely on TFG to blame the troops, apparently
posted by Jon_Evil at 5:32 AM on January 30 [16 favorites]
posted by Jon_Evil at 5:32 AM on January 30 [16 favorites]
I am just sick over the news about the skaters. For context, these were preteens and teens who were potentially the future of the sport. Some might have gotten international competitive assignments to represent the US in the next couple of years.
One senior male skater (who was not on the flight) lost both of his parents, who were former international champions and current coaches. He is scheduled to compete in Korea at Four Continents in a couple of weeks. Another family seems to have lost two skating daughters and both parents. It looks like some clubs lost multiple skaters and coaches. The World Championships are in March in Boston, and some of the skaters trained at the big-name club there.
This would be awful under any circumstances but seeing a relatively small community lose so many, especially so many young ones, is heartbreaking.
posted by timestep at 5:33 AM on January 30 [64 favorites]
One senior male skater (who was not on the flight) lost both of his parents, who were former international champions and current coaches. He is scheduled to compete in Korea at Four Continents in a couple of weeks. Another family seems to have lost two skating daughters and both parents. It looks like some clubs lost multiple skaters and coaches. The World Championships are in March in Boston, and some of the skaters trained at the big-name club there.
This would be awful under any circumstances but seeing a relatively small community lose so many, especially so many young ones, is heartbreaking.
posted by timestep at 5:33 AM on January 30 [64 favorites]
I normally walk to my classes over the Potomac from the Rosslyn Metro station to campus. I cross the Key Bridge a few miles upstream from the crash site.
Right now the water is damned cold. I've been fascinated by the ice covering the river, its contours and shapes. My heart goes out to any crash victims who fell into the water as well as the divers working in it now.
posted by doctornemo at 5:39 AM on January 30 [10 favorites]
Right now the water is damned cold. I've been fascinated by the ice covering the river, its contours and shapes. My heart goes out to any crash victims who fell into the water as well as the divers working in it now.
posted by doctornemo at 5:39 AM on January 30 [10 favorites]
FAA chief quit Jan 20 following pressure from Elon Musk and nobody has taken his place. The position is currently vacant.
posted by mrjohnmuller at 5:05 AM
Bah. Because FAA is who fines Mr von Braun when his rockets explode, the whole nation suffers.
I hope it was over quick. Rivers are cold.
RIP
posted by eustatic at 5:39 AM on January 30 [4 favorites]
posted by mrjohnmuller at 5:05 AM
Bah. Because FAA is who fines Mr von Braun when his rockets explode, the whole nation suffers.
I hope it was over quick. Rivers are cold.
RIP
posted by eustatic at 5:39 AM on January 30 [4 favorites]
Here s a show recounting Air Florida flt 90, from 1982
This was a failure by tropical pilots to do de-ing, but it details the airport's challenges. Including water rescue in the high traffic area.
posted by eustatic at 5:46 AM on January 30 [2 favorites]
This was a failure by tropical pilots to do de-ing, but it details the airport's challenges. Including water rescue in the high traffic area.
posted by eustatic at 5:46 AM on January 30 [2 favorites]
It broke the power of Labor in the US in complicated ways, and naming that airport after him was a calculated insult to unions in general.
Yeah, this is exactly why you'll notice that folks on this thread mostly call it something other than "Regan".
posted by VTX at 5:47 AM on January 30 [19 favorites]
Yeah, this is exactly why you'll notice that folks on this thread mostly call it something other than "Regan".
posted by VTX at 5:47 AM on January 30 [19 favorites]
My bet is actually that this is a Hegseth issue but not in a way that will be pinnable on him. I have seen some chatter that this was a Blackhawk that may have been returning from dropping off a civilian VIP. My bet is that Hegseth has been tasking military pilots overtime with flying people around to showcase his own importance and how tough and cool the military can be under his leadership; and that he may have instructed them generally not to file flight plans because flight plans would tend to identify which civilians were going where. I could absolutely see him saying something about “this is OPSEC”.
posted by corb at 5:50 AM on January 30 [56 favorites]
posted by corb at 5:50 AM on January 30 [56 favorites]
Had a text exchange with a local friend last night who was trying to find reliable internet sources soon after the crash. Their pre-teen daughter had young figure skating friends at the camp and potentially onboard Just tragic.
posted by inflatablekiwi at 5:54 AM on January 30 [3 favorites]
posted by inflatablekiwi at 5:54 AM on January 30 [3 favorites]
Eastern Air Lines Flight 537, 1949 mid-air collision (WP) – Eastern Air Lines Flight 537, registration N88727, was a Douglas DC-4 aircraft en route from Boston, Massachusetts, to Washington, D.C., via intermediate points on November 1, 1949. NX-26927 was a Lockheed P-38 Lightning being test-flown for acceptance by the government of Bolivia by Erick Rios Bridoux of the Bolivian Air Force. The two aircraft collided in mid-air at an altitude of 300 feet about half a mile southwest of the threshold of Runway 3 at Washington National Airport, killing all 55 aboard the DC-4 and seriously injuring the pilot of the P-38. At the time it was the deadliest airliner incident in United States history…
posted by cenoxo at 6:00 AM on January 30 [1 favorite]
posted by cenoxo at 6:00 AM on January 30 [1 favorite]
you'll notice that folks on this thread mostly call it something other than "Regan".
I find what name people say for DCA reveals their politics and/or age. Conservatives will say "Reagan" with some relish, while liberals prefer to pronounce "National." And many younger people will say whichever.
posted by doctornemo at 6:08 AM on January 30 [6 favorites]
I find what name people say for DCA reveals their politics and/or age. Conservatives will say "Reagan" with some relish, while liberals prefer to pronounce "National." And many younger people will say whichever.
posted by doctornemo at 6:08 AM on January 30 [6 favorites]
Trump fires heads of TSA, Coast Guard, and guts key safety advisory committee.
I am certain that those incidents have zero relation to this tragedy, and shame on anyone who thinks it is pertinent.
Shame, seriously? People should be ashamed of raising this point? If you want to convince people of your certainty, evidence will go farther than shaming them.
posted by corey flood at 6:17 AM on January 30 [43 favorites]
I am certain that those incidents have zero relation to this tragedy, and shame on anyone who thinks it is pertinent.
Shame, seriously? People should be ashamed of raising this point? If you want to convince people of your certainty, evidence will go farther than shaming them.
posted by corey flood at 6:17 AM on January 30 [43 favorites]
I find what name people say for DCA reveals their politics and/or age. Conservatives will say "Reagan" with some relish, while liberals prefer to pronounce "National." And many younger people will say whichever.
A lot of older DC people also draw a variable mental line between the local and the federal here (sometimes expressed as "DC" vs. "Washington") and deeply resent the latter meddling in the former - in some part because of our long history of disenfranchisement, and of being a test bed and whipping boy on the receiving end of Congressional action by outsiders who often hate us (and are very often foaming-at-the-mouth racists to boot).
There's clearly some irony in considering an airport called 'National' that's actually in Virginia to be 'ours', but local pride obviously isn't always entirely rational.
posted by reedbird_hill at 6:23 AM on January 30 [11 favorites]
A lot of older DC people also draw a variable mental line between the local and the federal here (sometimes expressed as "DC" vs. "Washington") and deeply resent the latter meddling in the former - in some part because of our long history of disenfranchisement, and of being a test bed and whipping boy on the receiving end of Congressional action by outsiders who often hate us (and are very often foaming-at-the-mouth racists to boot).
There's clearly some irony in considering an airport called 'National' that's actually in Virginia to be 'ours', but local pride obviously isn't always entirely rational.
posted by reedbird_hill at 6:23 AM on January 30 [11 favorites]
Trump reportedly drove out key aviation safety officials before crash — because of Musk
posted by robbyrobs at 6:29 AM on January 30 [24 favorites]
posted by robbyrobs at 6:29 AM on January 30 [24 favorites]
A recent study found “an association between acute COVID-19 rates and increased car crashes” and “did not find a protective effect of vaccination against increased crash risks, contrary to previous assumptions.”
Uhhh mere distraction from people going through the years 2020-2022 could be enough, in my opinion, to increase car crashes, especially since fewer people drove during that time and those who did sure seemed to drive faster and crazier.
Citing covid is just speculation like all speculation at this point. I'll be waiting on the NTSB report.
posted by tiny frying pan at 6:33 AM on January 30 [3 favorites]
Uhhh mere distraction from people going through the years 2020-2022 could be enough, in my opinion, to increase car crashes, especially since fewer people drove during that time and those who did sure seemed to drive faster and crazier.
Citing covid is just speculation like all speculation at this point. I'll be waiting on the NTSB report.
posted by tiny frying pan at 6:33 AM on January 30 [3 favorites]
I am certain that those incidents have zero relation to this tragedy, and shame on anyone who thinks it is pertinent.
It isn't certain that the Trump/Musk purge of government expertise had a direct causal effect on the crash -- though certainty in ruling it out seems, ah, premature -- but hell yes it's pertinent. Trump and Musk getting rid of qualified government officials that help ensure public safety makes the public less safe.
Which is, I might add, the exact opposite of one of Trump's central campaign themes, that he alone could keep his constituents safe.
posted by Gelatin at 6:36 AM on January 30 [29 favorites]
It isn't certain that the Trump/Musk purge of government expertise had a direct causal effect on the crash -- though certainty in ruling it out seems, ah, premature -- but hell yes it's pertinent. Trump and Musk getting rid of qualified government officials that help ensure public safety makes the public less safe.
Which is, I might add, the exact opposite of one of Trump's central campaign themes, that he alone could keep his constituents safe.
posted by Gelatin at 6:36 AM on January 30 [29 favorites]
> I'll be waiting on the NTSB report.
Is the NTSB even allowed to release a report anymore?
posted by I-Write-Essays at 6:42 AM on January 30 [30 favorites]
Is the NTSB even allowed to release a report anymore?
posted by I-Write-Essays at 6:42 AM on January 30 [30 favorites]
Trump fires heads of TSA, Coast Guard, and guts key safety advisory committee.
I do not think the stark drop in leadership head count led to an immediate catastrophic practical drop in safety standards in a way that within a week or so was able to precipitate this crash.
That said, I think this is fair to point out, because I do think that treating the vital safety infrastructure of this country as fucking optional, both in terms of how you staff it and how you fund it, betrays a profound contempt for air safety.
But then, it's pretty much contempt for well-being across the board of late, so there you go.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 6:43 AM on January 30 [19 favorites]
I do not think the stark drop in leadership head count led to an immediate catastrophic practical drop in safety standards in a way that within a week or so was able to precipitate this crash.
That said, I think this is fair to point out, because I do think that treating the vital safety infrastructure of this country as fucking optional, both in terms of how you staff it and how you fund it, betrays a profound contempt for air safety.
But then, it's pretty much contempt for well-being across the board of late, so there you go.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 6:43 AM on January 30 [19 favorites]
Is the NTSB even allowed to release a report anymore?
For now, yes, unless you've heard otherwise.
posted by tiny frying pan at 6:44 AM on January 30
For now, yes, unless you've heard otherwise.
posted by tiny frying pan at 6:44 AM on January 30
“For now, yes, unless you've heard otherwise.”
My cousin’s best-friend’s bartender serves a lot of NTSB folks and has heard rumblings.
posted by Captaintripps at 6:53 AM on January 30 [3 favorites]
My cousin’s best-friend’s bartender serves a lot of NTSB folks and has heard rumblings.
posted by Captaintripps at 6:53 AM on January 30 [3 favorites]
Their known goal is to shift government bureaucracy from being an instrument of public service into being part of the machinery of reinforcing their power, rewarding the loyal and punishing out-groups.
Many changes to how government works that might seem far-fetched individually right this second may seem much less so in short order.
The NTSB having their reports kept internal? Entirely possible.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 6:59 AM on January 30 [13 favorites]
Many changes to how government works that might seem far-fetched individually right this second may seem much less so in short order.
The NTSB having their reports kept internal? Entirely possible.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 6:59 AM on January 30 [13 favorites]
Blame Biden Bush Clinton Obama The Wright Brothers..... bottom line one of the deadliest domestic air crashes occurred on Trumps watch
posted by robbyrobs at 7:00 AM on January 30 [4 favorites]
posted by robbyrobs at 7:00 AM on January 30 [4 favorites]
corb, even before I saw your comment, I was wondering what the schedules for the helicopter pilots/their air controller were like. It's people that they were sleep-deprived.
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 7:03 AM on January 30 [2 favorites]
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 7:03 AM on January 30 [2 favorites]
I am certain that those incidents have zero relation to this tragedy, and shame on anyone who thinks it is pertinent.
The new rules say that we blame Trump and Musk before they blame Biden and Buttigieg, and not just to own the moment, but to make a point they won't understand until they defend a sane explanation. Then we can congratulate them for wising up. In the old days before idiocracy we could afford to wait and see, accidents happen, but now they are caused by political affiliation. Who knew? The winners. I get the concerns about becoming just like them, but it beats losing to incompetence and watching clowns rob the circus.
posted by Brian B. at 7:12 AM on January 30 [11 favorites]
The new rules say that we blame Trump and Musk before they blame Biden and Buttigieg, and not just to own the moment, but to make a point they won't understand until they defend a sane explanation. Then we can congratulate them for wising up. In the old days before idiocracy we could afford to wait and see, accidents happen, but now they are caused by political affiliation. Who knew? The winners. I get the concerns about becoming just like them, but it beats losing to incompetence and watching clowns rob the circus.
posted by Brian B. at 7:12 AM on January 30 [11 favorites]
I'd like to understand why they changed from Runway 01 to 33. I've flown into National hundreds of times and doubt I've ever landed on 33. If you're on approach from the south, you get a great look at Old Town Alexandria and every time I land that way I go "oooh, there's my old house..."
My sense is the helo pilots weren't aware that the AA flight had been diverted from 01 to 33. Note that if you're the helo pilot, and the AA plane is heading directly towards you, it's lights don't move at all relative to you - which is how you know it's heading towards you. At 400ft ASL, there are tons of lights in that area especially on a clear night so my guess is helo pilot lost situational awareness.
Note that I'm infinitely more concerned with collisions on the ground - landing/take off is always the trickiest. There was a private plane that took off under a passenger jet at Boston Logan a little while back - basically the private plane ignored ATC and just took off.
Also - the air corridor between Washington, D.C. and NYC is among the most busy in the world. Which is why in like 2007 there was discussion of increasing train traffic between the two cities that got all of nowhere.
Thank god Musk/Trump and related folks are going to fill the US government with the most capable, most experienced leaders possible and not a bunch of flunkies...
posted by Farce_First at 7:12 AM on January 30 [17 favorites]
My sense is the helo pilots weren't aware that the AA flight had been diverted from 01 to 33. Note that if you're the helo pilot, and the AA plane is heading directly towards you, it's lights don't move at all relative to you - which is how you know it's heading towards you. At 400ft ASL, there are tons of lights in that area especially on a clear night so my guess is helo pilot lost situational awareness.
Note that I'm infinitely more concerned with collisions on the ground - landing/take off is always the trickiest. There was a private plane that took off under a passenger jet at Boston Logan a little while back - basically the private plane ignored ATC and just took off.
Also - the air corridor between Washington, D.C. and NYC is among the most busy in the world. Which is why in like 2007 there was discussion of increasing train traffic between the two cities that got all of nowhere.
Thank god Musk/Trump and related folks are going to fill the US government with the most capable, most experienced leaders possible and not a bunch of flunkies...
posted by Farce_First at 7:12 AM on January 30 [17 favorites]
Yeah, the more I think about corb's comment, the more I think I may have made a mistake in dismissing within a week, those MFers got people killed as a real possibility.
Everything is terrible in this timeline and I hate it.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 7:14 AM on January 30 [23 favorites]
Everything is terrible in this timeline and I hate it.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 7:14 AM on January 30 [23 favorites]
Is the NTSB even allowed to release a report anymore?
posted by I-Write-Essays
My read on these executive orders is that they are directed to release any report blaming immigrants, women, or people of color, or if they can use the opportunity to somehow promote oil drilling.
That the head of NTSB is a (extremely competent) woman; it seems like it could be an issue that NTSB has to investigate for potential discrimination against white guys.
if somehow the Army's duties to protect the Nation's Potomac wetlands under the Clean Water Act caused a lack of oil drilling which led to the crash, NTSB is required to immediately elevate that under emergency powers, that is the most urgent issue our nation faces.
The covid 19 nexus seems pretty weak to me, and that is not NTSB's area, but if there is anything there, they cannot report on that.
posted by eustatic at 7:19 AM on January 30 [3 favorites]
posted by I-Write-Essays
My read on these executive orders is that they are directed to release any report blaming immigrants, women, or people of color, or if they can use the opportunity to somehow promote oil drilling.
That the head of NTSB is a (extremely competent) woman; it seems like it could be an issue that NTSB has to investigate for potential discrimination against white guys.
if somehow the Army's duties to protect the Nation's Potomac wetlands under the Clean Water Act caused a lack of oil drilling which led to the crash, NTSB is required to immediately elevate that under emergency powers, that is the most urgent issue our nation faces.
The covid 19 nexus seems pretty weak to me, and that is not NTSB's area, but if there is anything there, they cannot report on that.
posted by eustatic at 7:19 AM on January 30 [3 favorites]
I don't think it's naive or disingenuous at all to draw a straight line between a deadly air crash, and the capricious firing of pretty much everyone in charge of air safety.
posted by mrjohnmuller at 7:20 AM on January 30 [16 favorites]
posted by mrjohnmuller at 7:20 AM on January 30 [16 favorites]
Is the NTSB even allowed to release a report anymore?
For those who haven’t been tracking as closely, the answer is no: no agency at this time is allowed to communicate or release reports to the public unless approved by a political appointee. I can try to dig up a cite, but this was broken on BlueSky a couple days ago and it’s been a hectic couple of days since then. That’s why conference speaking, etc, was canceled, no one is allowed to tweet without permission, etc.
posted by corb at 7:20 AM on January 30 [39 favorites]
For those who haven’t been tracking as closely, the answer is no: no agency at this time is allowed to communicate or release reports to the public unless approved by a political appointee. I can try to dig up a cite, but this was broken on BlueSky a couple days ago and it’s been a hectic couple of days since then. That’s why conference speaking, etc, was canceled, no one is allowed to tweet without permission, etc.
posted by corb at 7:20 AM on January 30 [39 favorites]
Yeah, I remember the announcement that reports are muzzled, but I wasn't sure of its scope. At the time, it was mainly reported in relation to the NIH.
posted by I-Write-Essays at 7:26 AM on January 30 [2 favorites]
posted by I-Write-Essays at 7:26 AM on January 30 [2 favorites]
I am certain that those incidents have zero relation to this tragedy, and shame on anyone who thinks it is pertinent.
I have been on a work retreat all week. In Canada. In academia. The chaos to the south is impacting our conversations and thoughts, it is absolutely a presence in our strategic planning. You only get so far before reaching "Then again, 25% tariffs will likely wipe out those enrolment projections."
I'm sorry for everyone affected by this, it's awful.
posted by ginger.beef at 7:30 AM on January 30 [7 favorites]
I have been on a work retreat all week. In Canada. In academia. The chaos to the south is impacting our conversations and thoughts, it is absolutely a presence in our strategic planning. You only get so far before reaching "Then again, 25% tariffs will likely wipe out those enrolment projections."
I'm sorry for everyone affected by this, it's awful.
posted by ginger.beef at 7:30 AM on January 30 [7 favorites]
Seeing some reports that the ADS-B transponder on the Blackhawk was disabled. They are allowed to do that, by the FAA, *as of 2019, a Trump year* when they need to for security, buuuuuuuut what do you want to bet that directives or implied directives were to keep them off more broadly than when strictly necessary?
(The plane had an ADS-B transponder on: if the Blackhawk had too, both would have been going off and the crash would likely have been avoided)
posted by corb at 7:36 AM on January 30 [14 favorites]
(The plane had an ADS-B transponder on: if the Blackhawk had too, both would have been going off and the crash would likely have been avoided)
posted by corb at 7:36 AM on January 30 [14 favorites]
Transportation Secretary Sean Duffy: "Obviously, it is not standard to have aircraft collide. I want to be clear on that."
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 7:40 AM on January 30 [17 favorites]
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 7:40 AM on January 30 [17 favorites]
Oh ok good whew
posted by tiny frying pan at 7:41 AM on January 30 [28 favorites]
posted by tiny frying pan at 7:41 AM on January 30 [28 favorites]
To further corb's point about the ADS-B transponder, ADSBexchange (which runs the largest unfiltered data collection of people's receivers) does report it was not broadcasting ADS-B, which aircraft use to broadcast their exact location, latitude, and speed. The tracks people may have seen of the helicopter were calculated using MLAT, which basically triangulates its location (and then calculates its speed by comparing successive location fixes) by receiving the call sign which it was broadcasting. So that location/altitude/speed will be somewhat inaccurate compared to the airplane's track.
posted by skynxnex at 7:47 AM on January 30 [12 favorites]
posted by skynxnex at 7:47 AM on January 30 [12 favorites]
As a Gen Xer who grew up watching The Real World, I remain stunned and astounded that Sean Duffy is in charge of anything. But then someone on Blue Sky pointed, when you have a reality TV president, it stands to reason that he would be a-okay with reality TV alumn holding down jobs they are in no way qualified for.
posted by Kitteh at 7:48 AM on January 30 [17 favorites]
posted by Kitteh at 7:48 AM on January 30 [17 favorites]
I have seen some chatter that this was a Blackhawk that may have been returning from dropping off a civilian VIP. My bet is that Hegseth has been tasking military pilots overtime with flying people around to showcase his own importance and how tough and cool the military can be under his leadership.
Interesting. Musk had tweeted earlier yesterday bragging about how cool it was that he was going to get to fly in a Blackhawk helicopter later in the day.
posted by coffeecat at 7:51 AM on January 30 [12 favorites]
Interesting. Musk had tweeted earlier yesterday bragging about how cool it was that he was going to get to fly in a Blackhawk helicopter later in the day.
posted by coffeecat at 7:51 AM on January 30 [12 favorites]
Could have also been *both* - overtasked pilots who had been told to turn the transponder off to cover Musk’s flight, then trying to train a new guy on the approach to the airport to get some new people up to speed to relieve them from the over tasking, and doing so on the same aircraft without turning the transponder back on, whether from tiredness or orders. But I am absolutely sure that at the root of this you are going to find unnecessary VIP flights.
posted by corb at 7:57 AM on January 30 [16 favorites]
posted by corb at 7:57 AM on January 30 [16 favorites]
For those who haven’t been tracking as closely, the answer is no: no agency at this time is allowed to communicate or release reports to the public unless approved by a political appointee.
posted by Gelatin at 8:00 AM on January 30 [6 favorites]
times 3.12.83 reporting bb dayorder doubleplusungood refs unpersons rewrite fullwise upsub antefiling--George Orwell, 1984
posted by Gelatin at 8:00 AM on January 30 [6 favorites]
Well, and also this tip given to Ken Klippenstein from a pilot, which he's shared in a tweet. For those without an account, the TL:DR is that in the first Trump admin there was a push to privatize air traffic control. The result is that now the FAA might get underbid on contracts, which are able to underbid because they cut corners. This has been happening across the country, but this pilot is noting with particular alarm that starting Feb 1, there will be no air traffic controller at San Carlos airport, which is 10 miles from San Fran International and shares their approach airspace. Also is used by two flight schools, meaning junior pilots will be on their own here. The official letter from the airport to the pilot (also Twitter link).
posted by coffeecat at 8:10 AM on January 30 [19 favorites]
posted by coffeecat at 8:10 AM on January 30 [19 favorites]
Pentagon Probes Army Air Crash in Hegseth’s First Big Test
How long do you think Hegseth is back to drinking; if he is not already?
posted by robbyrobs at 8:11 AM on January 30 [5 favorites]
How long do you think Hegseth is back to drinking; if he is not already?
posted by robbyrobs at 8:11 AM on January 30 [5 favorites]
For Resistbotters, there's petitions up: SIGN PMEXNA and SIGN PNBNCX.
posted by humbug at 8:12 AM on January 30 [1 favorite]
posted by humbug at 8:12 AM on January 30 [1 favorite]
I live under the San Francisco approach. I see military jets and helicopters flying around this space without ADS-B, but identified on TIS-B.
posted by ryanrs at 8:19 AM on January 30
posted by ryanrs at 8:19 AM on January 30
Farce_First, I've flown in and out of DCA a lot, and I landed a handful of times on 33. I agree with you it's a little unusual and any unexpected deviations from normal have a way of snowballing into problems very quickly. I probably know people from DCFD and PGFD (assuming they ran mutual aid) who were out there last night. What a tragedy for everyone involved.
posted by wintermind at 8:22 AM on January 30 [6 favorites]
posted by wintermind at 8:22 AM on January 30 [6 favorites]
I'd like to understand why they changed from Runway 01 to 33. I've flown into National hundreds of times and doubt I've ever landed on 33.
Prevailing winds. I'm on mobile now and can't look it up, but the ATC script I saw said that there was a fairly strong crosswind, thus a 01 landing would've been riskier. This is very standard procedure in aviation. 33 isn't used as frequently at DCA but is definitely used, when I was living nearby I flew out of DCA frequently and landed on 33 at least a few times. I distinctly remember the last minute low turn over Bolling AFB to align with the runway which you can see in the route maps of this flight.
posted by photo guy at 8:23 AM on January 30 [8 favorites]
Prevailing winds. I'm on mobile now and can't look it up, but the ATC script I saw said that there was a fairly strong crosswind, thus a 01 landing would've been riskier. This is very standard procedure in aviation. 33 isn't used as frequently at DCA but is definitely used, when I was living nearby I flew out of DCA frequently and landed on 33 at least a few times. I distinctly remember the last minute low turn over Bolling AFB to align with the runway which you can see in the route maps of this flight.
posted by photo guy at 8:23 AM on January 30 [8 favorites]
Well, Hegseth said they were “extremely qualified,” so we know they were probably white and male.
posted by corb at 8:31 AM on January 30 [16 favorites]
posted by corb at 8:31 AM on January 30 [16 favorites]
Forgot to add - it would be interesting to hear if that could've been a factor though, maybe the chopper pilot wasn't aware of the change?
posted by photo guy at 8:34 AM on January 30 [1 favorite]
posted by photo guy at 8:34 AM on January 30 [1 favorite]
This is America 2025 in a nutshell: trying to balance our desire not to push conspiracy theories with our realization that actual behind the scenes fuckery is in fact afoot in many cases and that we may only ever hear about the truth in whispers. The end result is that you get to feel like a kook and a sucker at the same time.
The loss of government bureaucracy as a stabilizing force, even imperfect as it was, is and will continue to be unsettling.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 8:37 AM on January 30 [68 favorites]
The loss of government bureaucracy as a stabilizing force, even imperfect as it was, is and will continue to be unsettling.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 8:37 AM on January 30 [68 favorites]
Rambling press conference now from Trump in which he is repeatedly explaining that the aircraft were "at the same height" and "shouldn't have been". Yeah, thanks, chief, what would we do without your brilliant insights.
posted by senor biggles at 8:38 AM on January 30 [23 favorites]
posted by senor biggles at 8:38 AM on January 30 [23 favorites]
Right on cue, Trump is now announcing an acting FAA head (a little late), said "We do not know what led to this crash but we have some very strong opinions." [sic], and then went on to blame the crash on DEI, people with disabilities, and Pete Buttigieg.
So, yeah. It's his fault. He knows it's his fault. And he is desperately trying to DARVO, as per always.
posted by mrjohnmuller at 8:38 AM on January 30 [34 favorites]
So, yeah. It's his fault. He knows it's his fault. And he is desperately trying to DARVO, as per always.
posted by mrjohnmuller at 8:38 AM on January 30 [34 favorites]
Oh and now the new US Secretary of Transportation is agreeing that this "should not have happened" and is "unacceptable" because people getting on planes expect to land.
posted by senor biggles at 8:42 AM on January 30 [4 favorites]
posted by senor biggles at 8:42 AM on January 30 [4 favorites]
It was purportedly a training flight, which raises the question "why is the US Army running a training program for famously complex & difficult-to-control aircraft in the middle of the busiest & most controlled airspace in the whole fucking country?"
posted by adrienneleigh at 8:45 AM on January 30 [25 favorites]
posted by adrienneleigh at 8:45 AM on January 30 [25 favorites]
Well, Hegseth said they were “extremely qualified,” so we know they were probably white and male.
And Chistian, with the tats to prove it
posted by armoir from antproof case at 8:45 AM on January 30 [11 favorites]
And Chistian, with the tats to prove it
posted by armoir from antproof case at 8:45 AM on January 30 [11 favorites]
My "favorite" part of Trump's rambling was when he asked for a moment of silence for the victims and then DIDN'T SHUT UP for another 5 minutes before handing off to the next person.
There was no moment of silence.
posted by Roommate at 8:46 AM on January 30 [45 favorites]
There was no moment of silence.
posted by Roommate at 8:46 AM on January 30 [45 favorites]
Transportation Secretary Sean Duffy: "Obviously, it is not standard to have aircraft collide. I want to be clear on that."
People would have taken Duffy's comment more seriously if he wasn't mashing together two Playmobil planes at the time.
posted by Inspector.Gadget at 8:49 AM on January 30 [9 favorites]
People would have taken Duffy's comment more seriously if he wasn't mashing together two Playmobil planes at the time.
posted by Inspector.Gadget at 8:49 AM on January 30 [9 favorites]
Right on cue, Trump is now announcing an acting FAA head (a little late), said "We do not know what led to this crash but we have some very strong opinions." [sic], and then went on to blame the crash on DEI, people with disabilities, and Pete Buttigieg.
"Is the DEI in the room with you now, Mr. President?"
posted by AndrewInDC at 8:50 AM on January 30 [16 favorites]
"Is the DEI in the room with you now, Mr. President?"
posted by AndrewInDC at 8:50 AM on January 30 [16 favorites]
It was purportedly a training flight
An annual night training flight. I cannot explain how much bullshit I call on that one. Annual trainings are like, the bare minimum standards things. They are not the hard things. Your annual rifle qualification, for example, is shooting at a stable and nonmoving target. Sure, they *have* complicated shooting courses, but those are not annual courses. Even unit annual courses are not super hard things. Even unit annual courses for intelligence units that are notoriously selective aren't super hard things. Even infantry annual courses aren't super hard. They are boring, annoying things that everyone hates.
posted by corb at 8:51 AM on January 30 [29 favorites]
An annual night training flight. I cannot explain how much bullshit I call on that one. Annual trainings are like, the bare minimum standards things. They are not the hard things. Your annual rifle qualification, for example, is shooting at a stable and nonmoving target. Sure, they *have* complicated shooting courses, but those are not annual courses. Even unit annual courses are not super hard things. Even unit annual courses for intelligence units that are notoriously selective aren't super hard things. Even infantry annual courses aren't super hard. They are boring, annoying things that everyone hates.
posted by corb at 8:51 AM on January 30 [29 favorites]
How long do you think Hegseth is back to drinking; if he is not already?
I'm not going to be able to forget MeFi's own Rusty Foster's dubbing him our "new secretary of spousal abuse and alcoholism" anytime soon.
posted by reedbird_hill at 8:52 AM on January 30 [12 favorites]
I'm not going to be able to forget MeFi's own Rusty Foster's dubbing him our "new secretary of spousal abuse and alcoholism" anytime soon.
posted by reedbird_hill at 8:52 AM on January 30 [12 favorites]
Honestly, I'm impressed Trump managed to not go off on a tangent on how while he finds figure skaters lovely to look at it, he doesn't understand how it's a sport.
posted by coffeecat at 8:57 AM on January 30 [14 favorites]
posted by coffeecat at 8:57 AM on January 30 [14 favorites]
I'm not a fan of Richard Quest, I find him quite annoying, but right now he is ripping Trump, Hesgeth and Duffy a new one on CNN. I wasn't aware he has expertise in air crash investigation and he is furious that Trump is blaming this on DEI, and that Trump is making speculatory statements that his base is likely to take as fact.
posted by essexjan at 9:05 AM on January 30 [20 favorites]
posted by essexjan at 9:05 AM on January 30 [20 favorites]
TFG literally blamed people with dwarfism.
posted by achrise at 9:08 AM on January 30 [9 favorites]
posted by achrise at 9:08 AM on January 30 [9 favorites]
Trump is now announcing an acting FAA head (a little late), said "We do not know what led to this crash but we have some very strong opinions." [sic], and then went on to blame the crash on DEI, people with disabilities, and Pete Buttigieg.
From everything I've heard, the jet was doing just fine, it was the military helicopter that was at fault by deviating from its own flight path. How the fuck does Buttigieg have anything to do with that?
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 9:10 AM on January 30 [24 favorites]
From everything I've heard, the jet was doing just fine, it was the military helicopter that was at fault by deviating from its own flight path. How the fuck does Buttigieg have anything to do with that?
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 9:10 AM on January 30 [24 favorites]
My "favorite" part of Trump's rambling was when he asked for a moment of silence for the victims and then DIDN'T SHUT UP for another 5 minutes before handing off to the next person.
It's available on c-span, there was a moment of silence at the beginning, right off the top.
posted by mazola at 9:25 AM on January 30 [4 favorites]
It's available on c-span, there was a moment of silence at the beginning, right off the top.
posted by mazola at 9:25 AM on January 30 [4 favorites]
But my god what a mess of comments (also right off the top) :P
there aren't many facts but we have strong opinions and we'll share them now? really?
posted by mazola at 9:28 AM on January 30 [2 favorites]
there aren't many facts but we have strong opinions and we'll share them now? really?
posted by mazola at 9:28 AM on January 30 [2 favorites]
It's available on c-span, there was a moment of silence at the beginning, right off the top.
Thanks, I missed the beginning. The moment I'm referring is at about 11:30 in the video.
posted by Roommate at 9:32 AM on January 30 [5 favorites]
Thanks, I missed the beginning. The moment I'm referring is at about 11:30 in the video.
posted by Roommate at 9:32 AM on January 30 [5 favorites]
It is shocking how stupid that press conference was.
posted by mazola at 9:47 AM on January 30 [11 favorites]
posted by mazola at 9:47 AM on January 30 [11 favorites]
WaPo’s write up on Trump blaming DEI for the crash. It’s disgusting.
posted by Room 101 at 10:29 AM on January 30 [2 favorites]
posted by Room 101 at 10:29 AM on January 30 [2 favorites]
Is the NTSB even allowed to release a report anymore?
Taking a step back will there be anyone at the NTSB to release a report? Or are they going to take the opportunity presented byTFG Musk's resignation offer to avoid being Fauci'd and just peace out?
Transportation Secretary Sean Duffy: "Obviously, it is not standard to have aircraft collide. I want to be clear on that."
They'll just tow it out of the environment and it'll be fine.
posted by Mitheral at 10:31 AM on January 30 [10 favorites]
Taking a step back will there be anyone at the NTSB to release a report? Or are they going to take the opportunity presented by
Transportation Secretary Sean Duffy: "Obviously, it is not standard to have aircraft collide. I want to be clear on that."
They'll just tow it out of the environment and it'll be fine.
posted by Mitheral at 10:31 AM on January 30 [10 favorites]
It looks like Hegseth's new position is that DEI is still at fault even if it wasn't a DEI person who caused the crash because they were stressed by all the DEI *people* they were having to *cover* for.
posted by corb at 11:08 AM on January 30 [9 favorites]
posted by corb at 11:08 AM on January 30 [9 favorites]
You can't imagine the pressure that straight white men feel to be perfect 100% of the time, knowing that some minority is out there screwing it all up!
posted by AndrewInDC at 11:22 AM on January 30 [16 favorites]
posted by AndrewInDC at 11:22 AM on January 30 [16 favorites]
At 400ft ASL, there are tons of lights in that area especially on a clear night so my guess is helo pilot lost situational awareness.
This sounds pretty likely, but it's only the proximal cause. Ignoring for now what role leadership at FAA or DOD may have played, the important questions seem to be: 1) who decided on a flight plan that crossed directly through a DCA final approach path, and why, and 2) who approved that flight plan, and why, and 3) why was the transponder off in this obviously congested area? This wasn't unforeseeable, they were 400 feet up and like 1000 feet directly in front of the runway. You shouldn't be flying there at all unless and until ATC clears it.
posted by atbash at 11:39 AM on January 30 [9 favorites]
This sounds pretty likely, but it's only the proximal cause. Ignoring for now what role leadership at FAA or DOD may have played, the important questions seem to be: 1) who decided on a flight plan that crossed directly through a DCA final approach path, and why, and 2) who approved that flight plan, and why, and 3) why was the transponder off in this obviously congested area? This wasn't unforeseeable, they were 400 feet up and like 1000 feet directly in front of the runway. You shouldn't be flying there at all unless and until ATC clears it.
posted by atbash at 11:39 AM on January 30 [9 favorites]
Of course Trump et al. have absolutely no idea what caused the crash, and even if they did, it would be impossible to link it to specific hiring practices.
But they may be referring to an FAA screwup during the Obama administration, when they required applicants to pass a "biographical" test: "minority candidates were fed 'buzz words' to bump their resumes up to top priority. Apparently saying your worst subject in school was science served as a golden ticket. Correct answers to the take-home biographical questionnaire were given in their entirety. These questionnaires were later banned. ...after the questionnaire stage they still screened for competency. This isn’t about whether controllers are competent, it’s about who was allowed to demonstrate competence."
posted by Mr.Know-it-some at 11:40 AM on January 30 [4 favorites]
But they may be referring to an FAA screwup during the Obama administration, when they required applicants to pass a "biographical" test: "minority candidates were fed 'buzz words' to bump their resumes up to top priority. Apparently saying your worst subject in school was science served as a golden ticket. Correct answers to the take-home biographical questionnaire were given in their entirety. These questionnaires were later banned. ...after the questionnaire stage they still screened for competency. This isn’t about whether controllers are competent, it’s about who was allowed to demonstrate competence."
posted by Mr.Know-it-some at 11:40 AM on January 30 [4 favorites]
Mod note: One comment deleted. Please, no rape jokes.
posted by loup (staff) at 11:45 AM on January 30 [10 favorites]
posted by loup (staff) at 11:45 AM on January 30 [10 favorites]
The NTSB press conference right now is significantly different then the President's (like, they're not speculating based on limited information).
posted by mazola at 12:07 PM on January 30 [8 favorites]
posted by mazola at 12:07 PM on January 30 [8 favorites]
As an aviation illiterate I found this explanation damn succinct and informative.
posted by PareidoliaticBoy at 12:13 PM on January 30 [5 favorites]
posted by PareidoliaticBoy at 12:13 PM on January 30 [5 favorites]
When panicked, Trump just presses the Be Extra Racist button -- which, to be fair, has won him millions of admirers over the last ten years. As they say, when all you have is a pointy white hat, everything looks like a cross to burn. I think his fallback solution will probably not work this time, however.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 12:31 PM on January 30 [6 favorites]
posted by kittens for breakfast at 12:31 PM on January 30 [6 favorites]
WaPo’s write up on Trump blaming DEI for the crash. It’s disgusting.
I can only hope the media will finally hold him accountable for what he says and what he does, but I know that they won't. I mean, Christ, even we can't be bothered, or we try to put shame on those who do.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 12:34 PM on January 30 [5 favorites]
I can only hope the media will finally hold him accountable for what he says and what he does, but I know that they won't. I mean, Christ, even we can't be bothered, or we try to put shame on those who do.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 12:34 PM on January 30 [5 favorites]
Staffing was "not normal" in air traffic control tower at time of crash, per FAA report obtained by AP
The report says one air traffic controller was working two positions at the time of the crash.
posted by mrjohnmuller at 12:37 PM on January 30 [6 favorites]
The report says one air traffic controller was working two positions at the time of the crash.
posted by mrjohnmuller at 12:37 PM on January 30 [6 favorites]
Transportation Secretary Sean Duffy: "Obviously, it is not standard to have aircraft collide. I want to be clear on that."
That's.... very nearly a direct quote from Clarke and Dawes's "The Front Fell Off", isn't it?
"The [ship] the front fell off? Yeah, that's not very typical, I'd like to make that point."
posted by jackbishop at 12:44 PM on January 30 [22 favorites]
That's.... very nearly a direct quote from Clarke and Dawes's "The Front Fell Off", isn't it?
"The [ship] the front fell off? Yeah, that's not very typical, I'd like to make that point."
posted by jackbishop at 12:44 PM on January 30 [22 favorites]
But they may be referring to an FAA screwup during the Obama administration, when they required applicants to pass a "biographical" test: "
If it was like Mitt Romney or Paul Ryan making these remarks I might buy that.
But no, this is just racist brain-rotted Trump and his racist Christian Nationalist Sec Def blaming everything bad that happens on Black people and/or women. It's always been their default position and now they're just saying it right out loud with absolutely no covering or dissembling at all.
Do not give them even a hint of credit that they may be obliquely referring to an actual semi-plausible incident.
posted by soundguy99 at 1:08 PM on January 30 [14 favorites]
If it was like Mitt Romney or Paul Ryan making these remarks I might buy that.
But no, this is just racist brain-rotted Trump and his racist Christian Nationalist Sec Def blaming everything bad that happens on Black people and/or women. It's always been their default position and now they're just saying it right out loud with absolutely no covering or dissembling at all.
Do not give them even a hint of credit that they may be obliquely referring to an actual semi-plausible incident.
posted by soundguy99 at 1:08 PM on January 30 [14 favorites]
It isn't on us to presume good faith on Republicans' part and bend over backwards to fit their claptrap into some kind of narrative where it plausibly makes sense that they might be talking about a real thing. That ship sailed a long time ago.
Trump said his conviction that DEI was responsible for the crash was "common sense," which not only admits that he leaps to a racist conclusion but also that he doesn't have any evidence to back it up.
Push back on every claim and watch him flail and complain about how "unfair" you are. He looks really strong when he does that. /s
posted by Gelatin at 1:13 PM on January 30 [20 favorites]
Trump said his conviction that DEI was responsible for the crash was "common sense," which not only admits that he leaps to a racist conclusion but also that he doesn't have any evidence to back it up.
Push back on every claim and watch him flail and complain about how "unfair" you are. He looks really strong when he does that. /s
posted by Gelatin at 1:13 PM on January 30 [20 favorites]
American Airlines news page links to phone numbers to call "If you believe you may have loved ones on board Flight 5342" if you're calling from outside the US.
posted by brainwane at 1:30 PM on January 30 [2 favorites]
posted by brainwane at 1:30 PM on January 30 [2 favorites]
The Association of Flight Attendants-CWA, AFL–CIO, shares "Coping After a Major Airline Accident: A Guide for Flight Attendants" (including an Employee Assistance Program number to call) and offers a web form to share a message of support for PSA flight attendants.
PSA's flight attendants union has advised members to, among other things, "Enact your personal notification protocol and inform friends and family that you are safe."
(Per AFA-CWA last month, "Flight Attendants from Air Wisconsin and PSA work flights branded as American, but are paid on average 45% less than cabin crew employed directly by American.")
posted by brainwane at 1:52 PM on January 30 [4 favorites]
PSA's flight attendants union has advised members to, among other things, "Enact your personal notification protocol and inform friends and family that you are safe."
(Per AFA-CWA last month, "Flight Attendants from Air Wisconsin and PSA work flights branded as American, but are paid on average 45% less than cabin crew employed directly by American.")
posted by brainwane at 1:52 PM on January 30 [4 favorites]
We get it Trump your just itching for your The burning of the Reichstag building moment
posted by robbyrobs at 1:58 PM on January 30 [6 favorites]
posted by robbyrobs at 1:58 PM on January 30 [6 favorites]
Well, apparently an internal preliminary FAA safety report about the collision that the NYT got hold of says staffing at ATC was "not normal for the time of day and volume of traffic". Seems there were supposed to be two controllers working but last night there was only one, and ATC at DCA has only 19 of 30 positions filled.
(I'm not linking to NYT, but it's not hard to find if you're still willing to give them clicks.)
posted by atbash at 2:12 PM on January 30 [3 favorites]
(I'm not linking to NYT, but it's not hard to find if you're still willing to give them clicks.)
posted by atbash at 2:12 PM on January 30 [3 favorites]
Months before last night’s fatal aircraft collision, lawmakers dismissed safety warnings and approved an airline-backed measure that increased flight traffic at Washington, DC’s already overstressed airport — the site of the disaster.
posted by robbyrobs at 2:22 PM on January 30 [5 favorites]
posted by robbyrobs at 2:22 PM on January 30 [5 favorites]
I am just sick over the news about the skaters.
Me, too. These young kids. These families who lost multiple people. Young Naumov losing both his parents. Fck. And this is so reminiscent of the 1961 tragedy.
posted by NorthernLite at 2:32 PM on January 30 [3 favorites]
Me, too. These young kids. These families who lost multiple people. Young Naumov losing both his parents. Fck. And this is so reminiscent of the 1961 tragedy.
posted by NorthernLite at 2:32 PM on January 30 [3 favorites]
Skimming the FlyerTalk forum thread which includes a transcript of ATC audio immediately before the collision.
One commenter there says,
I want to know what the airlines think of all this -- this has got to be bad for business, right? Wouldn't it be in the airlines' interest to have fewer fatal collisions, and a functioning FAA?
The Republicans blaming "DEI" remind me of that tunnel disaster in Atlas Shrugged -- where the passengers on a train die because of shoddy work that wouldn't have passed muster under Dagny Taggart's supervision. But also, Rand pretty much explains that all those passengers deserved to die anyway. So I wonder whether that talking point will come up as well.
posted by brainwane at 2:34 PM on January 30 [5 favorites]
One commenter there says,
This is a very specific type of incident that, one could argue, could really only happen at DCA. The full combination of contributing factors (fixed-wing mixing with rotary, military mixing with civilian, visual approaches at night, last-minute "pick your runway" options, etc.) is something that is really quite unique to this airport.But the air traffic controller shortages are (if I understand correctly) widespread across the entire country. And my assumption is that other major US airports have their own peculiarities that make other specific types of incidents more likely, especially when communication and coordination are harder or worse because of understaffing and similar factors in the tower. So maybe this is, in fact, a harbinger of further air disasters.
I want to know what the airlines think of all this -- this has got to be bad for business, right? Wouldn't it be in the airlines' interest to have fewer fatal collisions, and a functioning FAA?
The Republicans blaming "DEI" remind me of that tunnel disaster in Atlas Shrugged -- where the passengers on a train die because of shoddy work that wouldn't have passed muster under Dagny Taggart's supervision. But also, Rand pretty much explains that all those passengers deserved to die anyway. So I wonder whether that talking point will come up as well.
posted by brainwane at 2:34 PM on January 30 [5 favorites]
Bad for business? As long as passengers want the absolute cheapest price to go from A to B the airlines don't care. People may be terrified of flying but saving $20 still wins.
posted by phliar at 2:46 PM on January 30 [2 favorites]
posted by phliar at 2:46 PM on January 30 [2 favorites]
The new rules say that we blame Trump and Musk before they blame Biden and Buttigieg, and not just to own the moment, but to make a point they won't understand until they defend a sane explanation
come on. if this election has proved anything it’s that we were never part of the royal We in the first place. so i don’t give a shit what people toss around on metafilter.
posted by knock my sock and i'll clean your clock at 3:25 PM on January 30 [2 favorites]
come on. if this election has proved anything it’s that we were never part of the royal We in the first place. so i don’t give a shit what people toss around on metafilter.
posted by knock my sock and i'll clean your clock at 3:25 PM on January 30 [2 favorites]
brainwane, your comment reminds me of the sad fact that so many individuals from the "braintrust" which drove the Republican party's push from Conservatism into batshitinsanism were massive fanbois of a second-rate academic with neither training nor experience in any industry or bureaucracy and who's name is known primarily because of works of fiction if not pure fantasy.
Of course the people now in power -- who don't know a fucking thing about what they're now responsible for -- have as their patron saint a person who didn't know a fucking thing about what she wrote of.
The new age of Ayn Rand: how she won over Trump and Silicon Valley..... Her novel The Fountainhead is one of the few works of fiction that Donald Trump likes
posted by jerome powell buys his sweatbands in bulk only at 3:50 PM on January 30 [3 favorites]
Of course the people now in power -- who don't know a fucking thing about what they're now responsible for -- have as their patron saint a person who didn't know a fucking thing about what she wrote of.
The new age of Ayn Rand: how she won over Trump and Silicon Valley..... Her novel The Fountainhead is one of the few works of fiction that Donald Trump likes
posted by jerome powell buys his sweatbands in bulk only at 3:50 PM on January 30 [3 favorites]
Some really interesting speculation/thoughts on that forum, including -
-plane and Blackhawk were operating at different speeds, so even if Blackhawk looked like it was flying directly into plane, it is possible Blackhawk was flying into plane’s path.
-plane does not seem to have been aware of Blackhawk
-VIP flights often take place to spare VIPs the traffic of driving to the airport rather than for any operational need.
posted by corb at 3:54 PM on January 30 [5 favorites]
-plane and Blackhawk were operating at different speeds, so even if Blackhawk looked like it was flying directly into plane, it is possible Blackhawk was flying into plane’s path.
-plane does not seem to have been aware of Blackhawk
-VIP flights often take place to spare VIPs the traffic of driving to the airport rather than for any operational need.
posted by corb at 3:54 PM on January 30 [5 favorites]
I mean, the sheer number of people -- with little to no relevant experience -- who have been nominated and placed into to the highest offices in the land by a guy with hardly any domain expertise outside of commercial real estate (and related criminal enterprises) who likely is convinced that Ayn Rand was one of the finest minds in railroad engineering, metallurgy, and economic theory.
posted by jerome powell buys his sweatbands in bulk only at 3:56 PM on January 30 [11 favorites]
posted by jerome powell buys his sweatbands in bulk only at 3:56 PM on January 30 [11 favorites]
Youtube video of someone reviewing and explaining an audio log of the crash. It's calm and mostly understandable. I only stumbled on one phrase.
I thought, from context, that 'visual separation' must be a term of art here. This suggests that it is, and that its use in this particular case is covered in scenario 2, 'Pilot-applied visual separation', where 'pilot' here is the helicopter's pilot. Is that right?
posted by BCMagee at 3:56 PM on January 30 [1 favorite]
I thought, from context, that 'visual separation' must be a term of art here. This suggests that it is, and that its use in this particular case is covered in scenario 2, 'Pilot-applied visual separation', where 'pilot' here is the helicopter's pilot. Is that right?
posted by BCMagee at 3:56 PM on January 30 [1 favorite]
In any case, the cynic in me tells me that Hegseth is desperately scanning the personnel files of the service members involved, hoping to find something (their ethnicity, they once voted for Obama, they enjoyed a vacation to San Francisco) that will allow him to pin this on wokeness infecting the military. I'd lay a significant amount of money on that being the narrative that comes out of the White House on this.
Where I went wrong here is assuming that they'd at least try to make a DEI/'woke' connection to someone actually involved in the accident, rather than DEI generally because, you know, 'common sense'. Turns out I wasn't cynical enough.
I really hope the Senators and Congresspeople who it sounds like use this airport all the time care enough about their own safety to actually get to the bottom of what happened.
posted by nangua at 3:57 PM on January 30 [8 favorites]
Where I went wrong here is assuming that they'd at least try to make a DEI/'woke' connection to someone actually involved in the accident, rather than DEI generally because, you know, 'common sense'. Turns out I wasn't cynical enough.
I really hope the Senators and Congresspeople who it sounds like use this airport all the time care enough about their own safety to actually get to the bottom of what happened.
posted by nangua at 3:57 PM on January 30 [8 favorites]
corb, is that suggesting that a VIP was on board the blackhawk?
posted by jerome powell buys his sweatbands in bulk only at 3:58 PM on January 30
posted by jerome powell buys his sweatbands in bulk only at 3:58 PM on January 30
As long as passengers want the absolute cheapest price to go from A to B the airlines don't care.
9/11 showed people freak out if airline travel gets perceived as unsafe and this reduces volume. Even for an event that can't happen again.
posted by Mitheral at 4:15 PM on January 30 [3 favorites]
9/11 showed people freak out if airline travel gets perceived as unsafe and this reduces volume. Even for an event that can't happen again.
posted by Mitheral at 4:15 PM on January 30 [3 favorites]
It would be great if the coverage of people who say diversity is the cause of all our problems pointed out that they are white supremacists literally repeating Nazi talking points.
posted by Horace Rumpole at 4:20 PM on January 30 [15 favorites]
posted by Horace Rumpole at 4:20 PM on January 30 [15 favorites]
No, just that enough people are using it like a taxi service that it took a lot of work and people to keep collisions from happening earlier. Without that…
posted by corb at 4:22 PM on January 30 [3 favorites]
posted by corb at 4:22 PM on January 30 [3 favorites]
I think more people are realizing that things are just a mess .More and more of the world is being junktified Trump was going to change that; make America great again. The Democrats were going to make things better for the common man. yada yada
Flying was that one area that was safe Statistically you're safe to fly over driving a car
Now even that is being chiseled away. Granted an accident may not happen again but who knows? But more importantly people are thinking is that system (flying) messed up too??
posted by robbyrobs at 4:26 PM on January 30 [1 favorite]
Flying was that one area that was safe Statistically you're safe to fly over driving a car
Now even that is being chiseled away. Granted an accident may not happen again but who knows? But more importantly people are thinking is that system (flying) messed up too??
posted by robbyrobs at 4:26 PM on January 30 [1 favorite]
I've been thinking about Atlas Shrugged, a book which I think has a lot of good and bad in it, in particular the passage about how dangerous the world becomes when the infrastructure is failing.
One of the good things about the book is that it's a bestseller about the importance of good infrastructure.
The passage about the tunnel collapse is good in the way that having a system which discourages conscientiousness leads to disaster, and bad in the way that it focuses on people who don't care about doing things well are the ones who die. (Except for the two children, but we aren't encouraged to think about them.)
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 4:38 PM on January 30 [3 favorites]
One of the good things about the book is that it's a bestseller about the importance of good infrastructure.
The passage about the tunnel collapse is good in the way that having a system which discourages conscientiousness leads to disaster, and bad in the way that it focuses on people who don't care about doing things well are the ones who die. (Except for the two children, but we aren't encouraged to think about them.)
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 4:38 PM on January 30 [3 favorites]
And the part about how all the innocent people who died in the Winston Tunnel collapse were all morally culpable because of their lousy altruistic mindset.
posted by whatevernot at 4:46 PM on January 30 [5 favorites]
posted by whatevernot at 4:46 PM on January 30 [5 favorites]
is that suggesting that a VIP was on board the blackhawk
Not when it crashed, but quite possibly on an earlier segment of the flight. One of the things about shuttling VIPs around is that after you deliver them to the ground, you then have to bring the aircraft and crew back to its base.
posted by toxic at 5:03 PM on January 30 [6 favorites]
Not when it crashed, but quite possibly on an earlier segment of the flight. One of the things about shuttling VIPs around is that after you deliver them to the ground, you then have to bring the aircraft and crew back to its base.
posted by toxic at 5:03 PM on January 30 [6 favorites]
The republicans have of course been pushing that for decades. "The hurricane wiped out your town because of gay people" "God is punishing the people who got killed in the earthquake".
posted by Mitheral at 5:05 PM on January 30 [6 favorites]
posted by Mitheral at 5:05 PM on January 30 [6 favorites]
I thought, from context, that 'visual separation' must be a term of art here. This suggests that it is, and that its use in this particular case is covered in scenario 2, 'Pilot-applied visual separation', where 'pilot' here is the helicopter's pilot. Is that right?
That's correct. I'll give my quals on this upfront - I'm a former Navy SH-60 pilot, I've flown that route exactly once but I've flown routes like it in NYC a bunch more when I was stationed at the Sikorsky plant that makes Blackhawks (and Seahawks and Jayhawks, etc, etc) and from the data I'm seeing it looks like somehow the Blackhawk lost situation awareness on their altitude control. Unless the PSA flight was really low on the approach, which just looking at the video doesn't look likely, the Blackhawk seems to have busted the 200 MSL max altitude for that route and whether they flew into the PSA or the PSA flew into them is kind of immaterial at that point.
I'm seeing conflicting data on what kind of 'training' flight it was - in a bunch of places it's being called some kind of Night Qualification flight, with an IP and a 'student' - known colloquially as a Check Ride. It's a 'test' where the IP is tasked with ensuring the student is capable of performing whatever skill is being evaluation on their own and usually involves running through emergency procedures relevant to the skill being evaluated. It's different than the kind of "Annual Training" corb is talking about - aviation has those kind of flights but they're higher tempo (more like every 30-60 days) and they wouldn't be Qual flights, they'd be Fam flights if they were scheduled separately at all.
I have a hard time believing they would being doing some kind of practice emergency in that environment but I supposed dumber things have been done. That is the kind of scenario where it can be easy to get task saturated and lose your SA, especially at night when you don't have as good visual cues. Although, it's not clear to me if we'll ever know - at least in my aircraft we didn't have black boxes like commercial aircraft did. The flight computers will be able to give them some data but I'm not aware that Blackhawks have voice recorders installed. Although maybe because they're VIP birds they have upgraded systems?
posted by macfly at 5:14 PM on January 30 [32 favorites]
That's correct. I'll give my quals on this upfront - I'm a former Navy SH-60 pilot, I've flown that route exactly once but I've flown routes like it in NYC a bunch more when I was stationed at the Sikorsky plant that makes Blackhawks (and Seahawks and Jayhawks, etc, etc) and from the data I'm seeing it looks like somehow the Blackhawk lost situation awareness on their altitude control. Unless the PSA flight was really low on the approach, which just looking at the video doesn't look likely, the Blackhawk seems to have busted the 200 MSL max altitude for that route and whether they flew into the PSA or the PSA flew into them is kind of immaterial at that point.
I'm seeing conflicting data on what kind of 'training' flight it was - in a bunch of places it's being called some kind of Night Qualification flight, with an IP and a 'student' - known colloquially as a Check Ride. It's a 'test' where the IP is tasked with ensuring the student is capable of performing whatever skill is being evaluation on their own and usually involves running through emergency procedures relevant to the skill being evaluated. It's different than the kind of "Annual Training" corb is talking about - aviation has those kind of flights but they're higher tempo (more like every 30-60 days) and they wouldn't be Qual flights, they'd be Fam flights if they were scheduled separately at all.
I have a hard time believing they would being doing some kind of practice emergency in that environment but I supposed dumber things have been done. That is the kind of scenario where it can be easy to get task saturated and lose your SA, especially at night when you don't have as good visual cues. Although, it's not clear to me if we'll ever know - at least in my aircraft we didn't have black boxes like commercial aircraft did. The flight computers will be able to give them some data but I'm not aware that Blackhawks have voice recorders installed. Although maybe because they're VIP birds they have upgraded systems?
posted by macfly at 5:14 PM on January 30 [32 favorites]
Yeah, it’s also possible that Hegseth was just *talking out of his ass* and imposed his norms (Annual Training) on whatever was *actually* happening, rather than waiting to hear the full details.
posted by corb at 5:17 PM on January 30 [5 favorites]
posted by corb at 5:17 PM on January 30 [5 favorites]
unrelated but ties into my earlier comment that the airline system is a mess
Frontier Airlines grounds all flights nationwide leaving thousands stranded
posted by robbyrobs at 5:37 PM on January 30
Frontier Airlines grounds all flights nationwide leaving thousands stranded
posted by robbyrobs at 5:37 PM on January 30
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfgllf1L9_4&ab_channel=CaptainSteeeve
This is working from the recording from the tower-- it's plausible (not proven) that the helicopter pilot was asked whether they could see their situation, and said they could, but they were looking at the wrong plane.
Even if this much is correct, it doesn't explain how the mistake was made.
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 6:21 PM on January 30 [2 favorites]
This is working from the recording from the tower-- it's plausible (not proven) that the helicopter pilot was asked whether they could see their situation, and said they could, but they were looking at the wrong plane.
Even if this much is correct, it doesn't explain how the mistake was made.
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 6:21 PM on January 30 [2 favorites]
This is making the rounds on MilSky: no authentication, but it *sounds* exactly what I would expect an Army guy to sound like, down to the ranks he is calling out.
I am an active duty United States Army instructor pilot, CW3, in a Combat Aviation Brigade. The Army, not the crew, is most likely entirely responsible for the crash in Washington DC that killed 64 civilians, plus the crew of the H60 and it will happen again.posted by corb at 6:31 PM on January 30 [19 favorites]
For decades, Army pilots have complained about our poor training and being pulled in several directions to do every other job but flying, all while our friends died for lack of training and experience.
That pilot flying near your United flight? He has flown fewer than 80 hours in the last year because he doesn’t even make his minimums. He rarely studied because he is too busy working on things entirely unrelated to flying for 50 hours per work week.
When we were only killing each other via our mistakes, no one really cared, including us. Army leadership is fine with air crews dying and attempts to solve the issue by asking more out of us (longer obligations) while taking away pay and education benefits.
You better care now, after our poor skill has resulted in a downed airliner and 64 deaths. This will not be the last time. We will cause more accidents and kill more innocent people.
For those careerist CW4, CW5, and O6+ about to angrily type out that I am a Russian or Chinese troll, you’re a fool. I want you to be mad about the state of Army aviation and call for it to be fixed. We are an amateur flying force. We are incompetent and dangerous, we know it, and we will not fix it on our own. We need to be better to fight and win our nation’s wars, not kill our own citizens.
If you don’t want your loved ones to be in the next plane we take down, you need to contact your Congressman and demand better training and more focus on flying for our pilots. Lives depend on it and you can be sure the Army isn’t going to fix itself.
What corb just posted doesn't really surprise me and feels correct. There's several military helicopter accidents every year that kill military members and unfortunately the thing that special about this one is that it took out a civilian plane and killed a bunch of civilians right at the capital and shoved in into their faces, rather than at 29 palms or Okinawa or etc.
posted by Art_Pot at 7:15 PM on January 30 [12 favorites]
posted by Art_Pot at 7:15 PM on January 30 [12 favorites]
And fuck the NYTimes, jumping from one story about blaming an air traffic controller to now blaming the helicopter pilot on their front page. They are just as much part of the problem, by trying to assign and reassign blame and accountability to anyone and everyone but the fucking people at the top who are the ones actually responsible.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 8:12 PM on January 30 [10 favorites]
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 8:12 PM on January 30 [10 favorites]
Yeah, that sounds about right. People don’t realize how threadbare a lot of resources are in business and government, especially when it comes to critical infrastructure and staff.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 8:13 PM on January 30 [4 favorites]
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 8:13 PM on January 30 [4 favorites]
Genuine question: If military pilots are busy doing "every other job but flying", what are the things they are doing "entirely unrelated to flying"?
posted by Reverend John at 8:18 PM on January 30 [2 favorites]
posted by Reverend John at 8:18 PM on January 30 [2 favorites]
Whatever their Commanding Officer says. Seriously.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 8:19 PM on January 30 [8 favorites]
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 8:19 PM on January 30 [8 favorites]
I’ve worked as graphic designer for institutions before and it’s ridiculous how common it is for the head of the department or company president to come in an say “i need this invitation made for my kid’s birthday party, never mind that important thing you’re working on that’s due tomorrow, do my personal shit now. You can stay longer tonight to work on that important thing that’s due tomorrow, fuck whatever plans you had for tonight.”
So a CO saying “cart my buddies, fuck your tiredness” doesn’t sound odd. Institutions are notorious for being personal kingdoms.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 8:46 PM on January 30 [10 favorites]
So a CO saying “cart my buddies, fuck your tiredness” doesn’t sound odd. Institutions are notorious for being personal kingdoms.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 8:46 PM on January 30 [10 favorites]
A few of the articles on this crash mentioned this 2023 army Blackhawk crash in the Mediterranean that took the lives of 5 soldiers. . I didn't some googling and I couldn't see if there were any other reporting on the causes, but I guess the military probably doesn't want to publish anything that shows their weaknesses.
I dd find this article that shows one of the service members in that crash left behind a young family.
Because of the tragic civilian toll on this one I hope the families can get better answers here, although it seems like the military and Trump admin may want to sweep this under the rug.
posted by CostcoCultist at 9:15 PM on January 30
I dd find this article that shows one of the service members in that crash left behind a young family.
Because of the tragic civilian toll on this one I hope the families can get better answers here, although it seems like the military and Trump admin may want to sweep this under the rug.
posted by CostcoCultist at 9:15 PM on January 30
Genuine question: If military pilots are busy doing "every other job but flying", what are the things they are doing "entirely unrelated to flying"?
I wasn't a pilot. But here are a small sample of the things I was asked to do by my command, while I was tasked out to a three letter agency and was considered mission critical to that agency, on a position that had no replacement for me.
- scour a golf course for pine needles for three hours so that I could make decorations in little baskets for the commander's Christmas party
- hang decorations for the commander's Christmas party
- pick up all the cigarette butts in a very large parking lot for four hours
- paint a three foot tall picture of a cobra on a wall in front of the commander's office because he thought it looked cool.
- landscaping (no, I had no special skill at landscaping)
- help the on-post casino count its money
- watch the barracks for 24 hours to make sure that no one kills each other or sets the place on fire. (at least once a month)
- dress as an Easter bunny for three hours so that he could host an Easter egg hunt
- get hired out as racetrack security for a horse race for eight hours
- get hired out as football stadium security for a football game for eight hours
And that's just the ones I can think of off the top of my head.
posted by corb at 11:00 PM on January 30 [45 favorites]
I wasn't a pilot. But here are a small sample of the things I was asked to do by my command, while I was tasked out to a three letter agency and was considered mission critical to that agency, on a position that had no replacement for me.
- scour a golf course for pine needles for three hours so that I could make decorations in little baskets for the commander's Christmas party
- hang decorations for the commander's Christmas party
- pick up all the cigarette butts in a very large parking lot for four hours
- paint a three foot tall picture of a cobra on a wall in front of the commander's office because he thought it looked cool.
- landscaping (no, I had no special skill at landscaping)
- help the on-post casino count its money
- watch the barracks for 24 hours to make sure that no one kills each other or sets the place on fire. (at least once a month)
- dress as an Easter bunny for three hours so that he could host an Easter egg hunt
- get hired out as racetrack security for a horse race for eight hours
- get hired out as football stadium security for a football game for eight hours
And that's just the ones I can think of off the top of my head.
posted by corb at 11:00 PM on January 30 [45 favorites]
Thanks macfly, and thanks for the supplementary explanation and info.
posted by BCMagee at 12:28 AM on January 31
posted by BCMagee at 12:28 AM on January 31
One of those who died in the plane crash: a civil rights lawyer who was about to start teaching at Howard University.
posted by brainwane at 3:16 AM on January 31 [3 favorites]
posted by brainwane at 3:16 AM on January 31 [3 favorites]
It's so ghoulish and enraging that Trump and his nazi fuck accomplices are using a tragedy (that they caused!) and which claimed the lives of several racialized people, to advance their quest to resegregate America. Just cartoonishly evil.
The people who voted for this or sat back and let it happen must never be forgiven.
posted by mrjohnmuller at 4:00 AM on January 31 [8 favorites]
The people who voted for this or sat back and let it happen must never be forgiven.
posted by mrjohnmuller at 4:00 AM on January 31 [8 favorites]
The secondary tragedy is that Elon Musk wasn't on that helicopter.
posted by subdee at 4:39 AM on January 31 [11 favorites]
posted by subdee at 4:39 AM on January 31 [11 favorites]
senator Tammy Duckworth , a former Black Hawk pilot has a few comments , without speculating on the cause.
"She noted that they were in the SFRA — the Washington, D.C., metropolitan Special Flight Restricted Area. It's a circular 30-nautical-mile area around Washington, D.C., which also surrounds the Flight-Restricted Zone, a smaller area encompassing Reagan National Airport."
"You don't get to fly in that without additional flight training," Duckworth said.
"They're not allowed to go above 200 feet mean sea level," she said.
As macfly mentions above
the Blackhawk seems to have busted the 200 MSL max altitude for that route
That will an issue
posted by yyz at 7:54 AM on January 31 [6 favorites]
"She noted that they were in the SFRA — the Washington, D.C., metropolitan Special Flight Restricted Area. It's a circular 30-nautical-mile area around Washington, D.C., which also surrounds the Flight-Restricted Zone, a smaller area encompassing Reagan National Airport."
"You don't get to fly in that without additional flight training," Duckworth said.
"They're not allowed to go above 200 feet mean sea level," she said.
As macfly mentions above
the Blackhawk seems to have busted the 200 MSL max altitude for that route
That will an issue
posted by yyz at 7:54 AM on January 31 [6 favorites]
I don't know what kind of flight recorders a Blackhawk helicopter has, if any, but I presume the ones from the commuter jet will be recovered soon, and they should shed light as to what altitude the collision occurred.
posted by Gelatin at 8:05 AM on January 31 [2 favorites]
posted by Gelatin at 8:05 AM on January 31 [2 favorites]
Genuine question: If military pilots are busy doing "every other job but flying", what are the things they are doing "entirely unrelated to flying"?
Back when I joined the RAF (UK Royal Air Force) in the late 1980s every recruit and trainee was shown a half-hour film Distractions (YT, 30 mins), starting with the (fictional) crash of a Jaguar fighter and then showing the events of the previous few days involving the pilot and ground personnel. The point of the film was how easy it is for the stresses and inconveniences of both work and personal life to pile up, especially where people are overloaded or pushing problems onto others. Military life is infamous for getting filled up with additional and secondary duties, be it pulling guard shifts or inventorying the paintings hanging in the Officers' Mess.* In extreme cases this can include the sort of crap corn mentions, although what's described there sounds downright abusive and the sort of thing that could easily lead to grievances being lodged, especially if the crap - as it was prone to - cascaded down the ranks until it hit someone very junior.
(*Because if you don't, you may not realise until too late that someone has wandered off with a couple of early David Shepherd pictures, as happened at one RAF base I served at in the 1990s).
posted by Major Clanger at 8:22 AM on January 31 [9 favorites]
Back when I joined the RAF (UK Royal Air Force) in the late 1980s every recruit and trainee was shown a half-hour film Distractions (YT, 30 mins), starting with the (fictional) crash of a Jaguar fighter and then showing the events of the previous few days involving the pilot and ground personnel. The point of the film was how easy it is for the stresses and inconveniences of both work and personal life to pile up, especially where people are overloaded or pushing problems onto others. Military life is infamous for getting filled up with additional and secondary duties, be it pulling guard shifts or inventorying the paintings hanging in the Officers' Mess.* In extreme cases this can include the sort of crap corn mentions, although what's described there sounds downright abusive and the sort of thing that could easily lead to grievances being lodged, especially if the crap - as it was prone to - cascaded down the ranks until it hit someone very junior.
(*Because if you don't, you may not realise until too late that someone has wandered off with a couple of early David Shepherd pictures, as happened at one RAF base I served at in the 1990s).
posted by Major Clanger at 8:22 AM on January 31 [9 favorites]
People have mentioned Senators (?) who pushed for more flights into the airport. Anyone have details?
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 8:25 AM on January 31
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 8:25 AM on January 31
People have mentioned Senators (?) who pushed for more flights into the airport. Anyone have details?
Ted Cruz and Raphael Warnock among others, see here.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 8:59 AM on January 31 [4 favorites]
Ted Cruz and Raphael Warnock among others, see here.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 8:59 AM on January 31 [4 favorites]
But here are a small sample of the things I was asked to do by my command:
corb, tell me you were a woman in the military without telling me that you were a woman in the military.
posted by SPrintF at 9:02 AM on January 31 [18 favorites]
corb, tell me you were a woman in the military without telling me that you were a woman in the military.
posted by SPrintF at 9:02 AM on January 31 [18 favorites]
People have mentioned Senators (?) who pushed for more flights into the airport. Anyone have details?
Airline-Bankrolled Lawmakers Brushed Off Warnings Before DC Airport Collision, article from The Lever.
posted by JDC8 at 9:05 AM on January 31 [6 favorites]
Airline-Bankrolled Lawmakers Brushed Off Warnings Before DC Airport Collision, article from The Lever.
posted by JDC8 at 9:05 AM on January 31 [6 favorites]
Trump won't visit crash site because it's "the water."
"You want me to go swimming?"
I feel like somebody ought out to be spamming Republican social media and news sites with the "Is this your king?!" meme from the first Black Panther movie.
What an utterly feckless human being. Grace, gravitas, compassion, and true leadership are as far away from him as we are from the center of the galaxy.
posted by lord_wolf at 10:39 AM on January 31 [7 favorites]
"You want me to go swimming?"
I feel like somebody ought out to be spamming Republican social media and news sites with the "Is this your king?!" meme from the first Black Panther movie.
What an utterly feckless human being. Grace, gravitas, compassion, and true leadership are as far away from him as we are from the center of the galaxy.
posted by lord_wolf at 10:39 AM on January 31 [7 favorites]
I feel like somebody ought out to be spamming Republican social media and news sites with the "Is this your king?!" meme from the first Black Panther movie.
Memail me a copy of the meme and a list and I'll do it. I am 100% serious.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 1:38 PM on January 31 [4 favorites]
Memail me a copy of the meme and a list and I'll do it. I am 100% serious.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 1:38 PM on January 31 [4 favorites]
Genuine question: If military pilots are busy doing "every other job but flying", what are the things they are doing "entirely unrelated to flying"?
In my first (Navy) tour post flight school, at one point, I was responsible for generating and publishing the daily flight schedule for the entire squadron, was in charge of IT for the entire squadron and was the backup / assistant to the classified material control officer. In addition to flying (and working on my next qualifications). Deploying actually lowered my workload until one of the senior officers got hurt and sent home and we had to redistribute their workload.
I'm a bit surprised to hear that complaint from the Warrant officer side of the Army because my understanding was that Warrant pilots were pilots first and had other jobs less frequently than commissioned officer pilots. But that's 15 year old data now and was from pretty senior folks at the time - things can change a lot in that amount of time, especially as the Army was transitioning out of Iraq / Afghanistan.
posted by macfly at 2:47 PM on January 31 [2 favorites]
In my first (Navy) tour post flight school, at one point, I was responsible for generating and publishing the daily flight schedule for the entire squadron, was in charge of IT for the entire squadron and was the backup / assistant to the classified material control officer. In addition to flying (and working on my next qualifications). Deploying actually lowered my workload until one of the senior officers got hurt and sent home and we had to redistribute their workload.
I'm a bit surprised to hear that complaint from the Warrant officer side of the Army because my understanding was that Warrant pilots were pilots first and had other jobs less frequently than commissioned officer pilots. But that's 15 year old data now and was from pretty senior folks at the time - things can change a lot in that amount of time, especially as the Army was transitioning out of Iraq / Afghanistan.
posted by macfly at 2:47 PM on January 31 [2 favorites]
Another plane crash just now. This time in Philadelphia. Small plane, but it crashed into a busy area. Reports of multiple casualties, and buildings/vehicles on fire.
posted by mrjohnmuller at 4:26 PM on January 31
posted by mrjohnmuller at 4:26 PM on January 31
It appears that the the instructor pilot on board had about 1,000 flight hours,
The other pilot had about 500 hours.
500 hours flight time and you are flying VIPs around Washington?
posted by yyz at 5:43 PM on January 31 [4 favorites]
The other pilot had about 500 hours.
500 hours flight time and you are flying VIPs around Washington?
posted by yyz at 5:43 PM on January 31 [4 favorites]
The copilot's name [is being withheld](https://www.npr.org/2025/01/30/nx-s1-5281246/pentagon-jet-military-helicopter-collision) because she was a woman and her family are terrified for their lives from Trump supporters.
posted by adrienneleigh at 7:19 PM on January 31 [9 favorites]
posted by adrienneleigh at 7:19 PM on January 31 [9 favorites]
lol, just noticed i had a brainfart and used Markdown syntax above, which doesn't work on MetaFilter. Oh, well, you get the idea.
posted by adrienneleigh at 8:23 PM on January 31 [1 favorite]
posted by adrienneleigh at 8:23 PM on January 31 [1 favorite]
^^ pony request - markdown option
posted by JoeXIII007 at 10:18 PM on January 31 [4 favorites]
posted by JoeXIII007 at 10:18 PM on January 31 [4 favorites]
Climate change hasn't only increased the intensity of storms, it's increased the intensity of atmospheric phenomena at all scales and levels.
Including and especially the flows and turbulence that aircraft are so sensitive to.
I think we would see a worsening record of air mishaps and disasters even without the drastic accelerant of Trump's utter bumbling incompetence.
But Trump and his lackeys can never use climate change as a excuse for anything, of course.
posted by jamjam at 11:02 PM on January 31 [5 favorites]
Including and especially the flows and turbulence that aircraft are so sensitive to.
I think we would see a worsening record of air mishaps and disasters even without the drastic accelerant of Trump's utter bumbling incompetence.
But Trump and his lackeys can never use climate change as a excuse for anything, of course.
posted by jamjam at 11:02 PM on January 31 [5 favorites]
I hope it was over quick. Rivers are cold.
It's hard to make out based on the footage, but I pray that the collision imposed enough of a deceleration that everyone involved lost consciousness immediately. And if not then, then upon impact with the water. The thought of someone surviving those two events only to drown in freezing water because they were trapped is just another layer of horror and tragedy.
I can't imagine what the families are going through.
posted by spacediver at 8:09 AM on February 1 [2 favorites]
It's hard to make out based on the footage, but I pray that the collision imposed enough of a deceleration that everyone involved lost consciousness immediately. And if not then, then upon impact with the water. The thought of someone surviving those two events only to drown in freezing water because they were trapped is just another layer of horror and tragedy.
I can't imagine what the families are going through.
posted by spacediver at 8:09 AM on February 1 [2 favorites]
Since 2000 there have been 18 fatal commercial airplane crashes in the USA (not counting 9/11).
Two have occurred since the politically motivated disruption started in a week window.
Until 2025 we'd expect a rate of just over 0.01/week. If we assume many 1000s of flights each with a small chance of crashing, seeing two in a week would have an insane p-value.
Two crashes in a week should be a once in a century bad luck event.
So exactly at what point would it be reasonable to spefulate that disription of the agency in charge of air safety could disrupt air safety?
posted by NotAYakk at 8:43 AM on February 1 [5 favorites]
Two have occurred since the politically motivated disruption started in a week window.
Until 2025 we'd expect a rate of just over 0.01/week. If we assume many 1000s of flights each with a small chance of crashing, seeing two in a week would have an insane p-value.
Two crashes in a week should be a once in a century bad luck event.
So exactly at what point would it be reasonable to spefulate that disription of the agency in charge of air safety could disrupt air safety?
posted by NotAYakk at 8:43 AM on February 1 [5 favorites]
Since 2000 there have been 18 fatal commercial airplane crashes in the USA (not counting 9/11). Two have occurred since the politically motivated disruption started in a week window.
This isn't to detract from the clear problem of gutting the FAA, but the Philly crash was not a commercial flight but a medical jet. The company that operates that aircraft apparently had another crash just 15 months ago. So, slightly different category than the DC crash.
posted by coffeecat at 10:17 AM on February 1 [6 favorites]
This isn't to detract from the clear problem of gutting the FAA, but the Philly crash was not a commercial flight but a medical jet. The company that operates that aircraft apparently had another crash just 15 months ago. So, slightly different category than the DC crash.
posted by coffeecat at 10:17 AM on February 1 [6 favorites]
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posted by Samuel Farrow at 8:16 PM on January 29 [1 favorite]