Wheeee

February 19, 2025 10:57 AM

PM Trudeau announces 300km/h, fully electric, high speed rail project to connect Toronto, Peterborough, Ottawa, Montréal, Laval, Trois-Rivières and Quebec City. The service would run along a 1000km long corridor where 50% of Canada's population lives and would reduce the travel time between Toronto and Montreal to just three hours.
posted by Mitheral (58 comments total)

I hope it actually happens.
posted by exolstice at 10:59 AM on February 19 [7 favorites]

It makes perfect sense -- we have, what, half the country's population living along that pretty-much straight line? High speed rail is an obvious solution.

Which is why we've been talking about it for... fifty years. I'd love to see it happen, but I'm not standing in line for tickets just yet.
posted by Capt. Renault at 11:01 AM on February 19 [7 favorites]

I wonder if they'll get the consortium that built the Ottawa LRT to build it, or if they'll get the consortium that's still working on the Eglington crosstown...
posted by clawsoon at 11:03 AM on February 19 [11 favorites]

The idea of HSR in the Corridor on dedicated tracks appeals to me. Having it re-announced for the third or fourth time (by a lame-duck PM while parliament is prorogued and unable to debate more pressing national issues during a crisis, and while his party is trying to choose a new leader) does not.
posted by cardboard at 11:04 AM on February 19 [12 favorites]

Oh man, Kingstonians are big mad that our city council didn't get in on this despite the fact the way the route is planned means Smith Falls is the closest to us. (Like, where are we going to put a new track, guys? VIA/CN runs on the one we have.)
posted by Kitteh at 11:04 AM on February 19 [1 favorite]

It would be awesome to have a fast way into Montreal other than by plane or car. Getting from their airport into downtown requires a bus trip that is not ideal in winter weather. Go Canada!
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 11:05 AM on February 19 [1 favorite]

Not to abuse the edit window: as much as I love the idea of high speed rail coming to where I live, my fucking city can't even get an airline carrier to come back to the airport we spent a few million dollars on to elongate the runways, so if the city can't even manage that, no wonder people are mad we won't get high speed rail.
posted by Kitteh at 11:07 AM on February 19 [2 favorites]

"...or if they'll get the consortium that's still working on the Eglington crosstown..."

If we time it right, we can finish renovations to Union Station just in time to start construction again. We'll have entire generations of Canadians who only know Union as being a construction site.
posted by Capt. Renault at 11:08 AM on February 19 [8 favorites]

At this point, I'm a Canadian who only knows Union as a construction site!
posted by Kitteh at 11:09 AM on February 19 [6 favorites]

> Kingstonians are big mad that our city council didn't get in on this

Looking at a naive map based off strait-line connections of the declared cities, this high-speed rail swings north away from the US-Canada border in the area where the US controls the south side of the St Lawrence, except Montreal.

This reminds me of the Rideau Canal system, built to bypass that exact section of the St Lawrence after the war of 1812 to ensure access to the Great Lakes from the Atlantic.
posted by NotAYakk at 11:17 AM on February 19 [3 favorites]

Not super confident about this part:
work begins on detailed design, Indigenous consultations, land acquisition, and the environmental assessments necessary to enable construction
And I mean HURRAY FAST TRAINS but can folks get drinking water maybe?
posted by chococat at 11:32 AM on February 19 [4 favorites]

*stares longingly in nova scotia*

I hope this gets built. I hope they fireproof it against political arson from any future conservative governments. (Just saw how Trump is trying to get rid of congestion pricing in NY, for instance)

I hate flying, pretty much. I would much rather spend 2 days on the train than 2 hours on a plane. But sometimes speed is of the essence, and it would be nice to have some non-flight rapid transit to meet that need.
posted by mrjohnmuller at 11:37 AM on February 19 [4 favorites]

Kingstonians are big mad that our city council didn't get in on this

My support for this is due to them bypassing Queens University. Make it as hard as possible for those purple armed idiots to get to any away games.
posted by srboisvert at 12:03 PM on February 19 [3 favorites]

Citynerd: High Speed Rail vs. Air vs. Car. We pit three travelers against one another in a race by train, car, and airplane.
posted by 1970s Antihero at 12:03 PM on February 19 [1 favorite]

Well this is good news!

Canada has always been a world leader in High Speed Rail (study)!
posted by mazola at 12:06 PM on February 19 [2 favorites]

Make it as hard as possible for those purple armed idiots to get to any away games.

Kingston's longest most entrenched love/hate relationship, for sure!
posted by Kitteh at 12:08 PM on February 19 [1 favorite]

I apologize in advance for asking, but is this project going to survive if a right wing shitbird is his successor or will it be wiped from existence?
posted by DirtyOldTown at 12:14 PM on February 19 [1 favorite]

It is a Quebec company that is building it, so at least it isn’t Metrolinx. I understand the route through farmland makes it logistically possible - the one going through cities would easily take twice as long to build, but I did cast side eye at QC getting Laval and Trois Riveiers as stops. If Laval was acceptable (my understanding there is a Laval stop AND Montreal) then there should have been a stop somewhere like Ajax so not everyone in the GTA would have to go to Union. And the gap between Pbo and Ottawa is pretty big, but also doesn’t really have any population centres except Kingston, so I can understand stopping Smith Falls from the plan.

More importantly, this is an excellent investment into our steel companies since a lot of them are going to be struggling. It also harkens back to the Canadian TurboTrain that went at least 225 km per hour … in 1968!
posted by saucysault at 12:16 PM on February 19 [3 favorites]

A cheap promise meant to be soon forgotten. I could be wrong.
posted by ovvl at 12:24 PM on February 19 [1 favorite]

I mean, I will believe it will happen when there is more than a press release.
posted by Kitteh at 12:26 PM on February 19 [2 favorites]

As soon as Trudeau finds out that people don't want ranked choice train scheduling, he'll drop the idea in the messiest possible way.
posted by clawsoon at 12:28 PM on February 19 [8 favorites]

> And I mean HURRAY FAST TRAINS but can folks get drinking water maybe?
75% of long term drinking water advisories lifted since 2015, and over 1 million dollars already spent on drinking water for that specific (fly in, remote) community of 350 people to upgrade drinking water capabilities.

I mean it sucks, but Northern Ontario (and Northern Canada) is insanely remote. And honestly, in many of those communities, the drinking water advisory is not the greatest problem. :(
posted by NotAYakk at 12:29 PM on February 19 [5 favorites]

I would very much love to see this built and would use the heck out of it if it does get built, but I ain't holding my breath given so many years of discussion on high speed trains and nothing being done.

I think there are even odds on whether I will be able to first buy a ticket from Ottawa to Quebec city on a high-speed train or a Zeppelin.
posted by fimbulvetr at 12:37 PM on February 19 [5 favorites]

To those doubting this, they have already chosen the company to build it (a Quebec company, so a little dicey politically to axe it) and created a Crown corporation. It HAS been studied and talked about for years. But it really does look like this one is going through right when Canada needs to use up our natural resources on large infrastructure projects in the face of a war. Carney has been talking about investing in Canada, and now the Con majority is evaporating it seems possible to have a Liberal gov propped up by the NDP.
posted by saucysault at 12:39 PM on February 19 [7 favorites]

saucysault, that's fair. I mean, I am game for anything that makes Canada better on our own and this includes high speed rail. Because if it's gonna happen anywhere in North America, it will definitely be Canada.
posted by Kitteh at 12:41 PM on February 19 [1 favorite]

I hope it actually happens.

Narrator: It won't
posted by WaterAndPixels at 12:54 PM on February 19 [2 favorites]

there should have been a stop somewhere like Ajax so not everyone in the GTA would have to go to Union.

The map is really general but it looks to me like it's not taking the lakeshore line, for which I am grateful just from a vaguely NIMBY perspective (although I support more rail in my neighbourhood if I have to.) Maybe keeping some share for GO for everyone taking it down to Union.

I'm excited for this type of project if it happens and if we can actually build good things (besides Bombardier planes that flip nicely.) I do wonder if we'll wish we'd spent it on defence but all things considered transit is better.

"The CBC reports that construction funds will not be allocated until the end of the design period, which means a future government could modify or cancel the project."

Sigh.
posted by warriorqueen at 12:57 PM on February 19 [2 favorites]

a Quebec company, so a little dicey politically to axe it

This is the scariest part of the whole thing. Contracting the Caisse-led consortium (which includes Air Canada for some reason) seems very risky compared to just hiring a company that has actually completed HSR projects. Sure, some of the members of the consortium have done HSR, but then why involved the Caisse, Air Canada and AtkinsRealis at all? (Of course, we all know exactly why they are involved.)

Just look at what has happened with HS2 in England.

It certainly isn't a good sign either that they will be spending $4.4 billion to design this, over the course of six years. That's an amount of money and length of time in which you should be able to build a short HSR system (not 1000km, but you should be able to build Ottawa-Montreal for that amount).
posted by ssg at 1:04 PM on February 19 [2 favorites]

I agree that it's strange that Toronto is getting one stop, total, but Montreal gets both a downtown and a suburban stop. If the line heads east from Union Station it will have to swing NE at some point to get to Peterborough. Does it go through Pickering? Markham? Oshawa? No matter which suburb it goes through there should be stop there too.

I do think the Peterborough stop is a smart move politically. Peterborough's riding switches between blue and red and is currently held by the Conservatives. If they axe the program, they're going to take a hit in a swing riding.
posted by thecjm at 1:06 PM on February 19 [2 favorites]

saucysault, the fact they've chosen a consortium to build it really means nothing to me. At best this will waste a few billions before we stop it, because this costs too much at a time where the federal government is hemorrhaging money, next government will probably pause it on some pretext and it'll stay like that.

And I do love this idea of having high speed rail between Quebec city and Toronto, but I can't see anybody making the case that blowing 200 billions CAD (if we're lucky and it's only 2x the projected cost) is a better use of that money than putting it to work on solving the housing crisis. Also which problem is this solving ?
posted by WaterAndPixels at 1:11 PM on February 19 [2 favorites]

And it's also 100% true that the current state of passenger travel on a train is an absolute joke in this country even before we consider how expensive it is, and something needs to be done to help with that. I just don't believe in this project for one second, and I don't understand why Trudeau is hellbent on making sure everybody suddenly remembers how the federal funds were managed under him.

Now, is a project like that a better use of a our money than a lot of what being done? Yes of course. And it's not a recurring cost once it's built its built. But I'm still of the opinion we can do more with that money, and more that'll have a bigger impact for more Canadians.
posted by WaterAndPixels at 1:20 PM on February 19 [1 favorite]

*stares longingly in nova scotia*

*stares longingly in british columbia*
posted by thoughtful_jester at 1:30 PM on February 19 [4 favorites]

One important part about high speed rail is that it doesn't have too many stops because having to slow down and speed up again means time added on to the journey. Ajax already has GO train service to Toronto and Oshawa and passengers can switch to VIA there. There probably should be some kind of express bus or short rail line between Oshawa and Peterborough to allow people to get the high speed rail from there instead of having to travel down to Toronto for it.

Similarly, Kingston to Ottawa is already on VIA so there isn't a need to duplicate it for this. I guess one concern would be what the high speed rail would mean for the existing service on the Toronto - Quebec City corridor. Will there be demand to keep that at it's current frequency and have the high speed rail on top of it?
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 1:34 PM on February 19 [4 favorites]

Sure, some of the members of the consortium have done HSR, but then why involved the Caisse, Air Canada and AtkinsRealis at all?

CDPQ (La caisse pour les intimees) did the Montreal express rail system that came online recently, so I guess they have some experience managing those kinds of projects. Atkins I guess makes a bit of sense since they're one of Canada's biggest engineering/construction management firm.

AirCanada is baffling, unless they plan to combine train-plain tickets, but it seems those deals could be concluded later. I look forward to not being able to be served in french on one of those trains that won't exist ;) (a long standing issue with AC)
posted by WaterAndPixels at 1:37 PM on February 19 [2 favorites]

By Ajax, I basically meant just north of Ajax as the line will most likely twin the existing railway ROW that goes through Malvern and then east of Markham through farmland till Ottawa (excepting Pbo). A stop in Pontypool would be fun, tho. It does not follow the lakeshore line. It’s interesting that the Windsor-Toronto part of the proposed HSR has vanished despite the large population living near that route. And the lecture advertised it as “Quebec City - Toronto”, really feels like they are leaning into that Quebec vote.
posted by saucysault at 2:08 PM on February 19 [2 favorites]

CDPQ (La caisse pour les intimees) did the Montreal express rail system that came online recently, so I guess they have some experience managing those kinds of projects.

The REM (a suburban metro with a max speed of 100km/h) is a totally different beast than a 1000km long, 300 km/h HSR line. Why not just hire someone who has actually built HSR?
posted by ssg at 2:16 PM on February 19 [2 favorites]

Where are people finding the map? The only one I'm seeing is in the trains.com link, which says that it's from a previous Via Rail proposal rather than the current Alto proposal.
posted by clawsoon at 2:30 PM on February 19 [1 favorite]

Toronto-Ottawa-Montreal are the three important points. I can see extending it eastward to Quebec City because there probably won't be another high-speed line going East anytime soon. Toronto-London-Windsor can be a separate line but seeing how it's all within Ontario the Provincial government would need to play a much bigger part in that.
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 2:41 PM on February 19

It's also not very high speed! Even now when the numbers are at their most optimistic, they are claiming 3:07 from Toronto to Montreal, which is about 550km driving distance (presumably it's a little longer through Ottawa as planned, but not a lot). Toronto to Ottawa is 2:09 for about 400km of driving distance. So an average speed of a little less than 200km/h.

For comparison, Beijing-Shanghai is 1300km and takes about 4.5 hours (290km/h average). Madrid-Barcelona is 625km and only 2.5 hours (250km/h average).

HSR needs to compete with air travel and that's looking bad for Toronto-Quebec at more than 4.5 hours. If we're going to do it, we should do it right.
posted by ssg at 3:05 PM on February 19 [3 favorites]

What's the snowiest, coldest high-speed rail currently running? Here in Toronto we seem to have trouble keeping the subway running properly when it snows, despite the fact that we've been doing this for 60+ years, which makes me worry about the higher requirements of higher speed.
posted by clawsoon at 3:08 PM on February 19 [1 favorite]

NE China has drier, but significantly colder, winters and has plenty of HSR, even above 300km/h. But there's lots of HSR in snowy parts of Europe too (Austria, Switzerland).
posted by ssg at 3:24 PM on February 19 [4 favorites]

Maybe not as cold but the Shinkansen lines in Japan are in much snowier areas so I think it's more or less a solved problem.
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 3:26 PM on February 19 [2 favorites]

claws on, no official map yet, but it is assumed that especially in urban areas it will be twinned with existing tracks when possible. They could also use Hydro corridors ROW but as that is a different regulatory body it adds another layer of complication. There is no current railway ROW between Pbo and Ottawa so it is assumed the track will follow Hwy 7 as much of that is Canadian Shield and has existing studies to make the process smoother.

Also I found my answer about Trois Riviers, it has not had a Liberal MP since 1984 with the 2021 election resulting in 29.49% BQ, 29.35% Con, 28.63% Liberal (and the money spent by each candidate in the riding sure is interesting).
posted by saucysault at 3:36 PM on February 19 [1 favorite]

Correction, there is no ROW train network between Pbo and Perth/Smith Falls, not Ottawa.
posted by saucysault at 3:46 PM on February 19

Oh man, Kingstonians are big mad that our city council didn't get in

Kingston, the Rochester of Ontario
posted by pjenks at 5:30 PM on February 19

It's absurd to me to spend billions to save 2 hours off the bus ride between Montréal and Toronto. No thanks, Medium Speed Rail.
posted by jordantwodelta at 5:51 PM on February 19

2 hours off means people will take the electric train over flying, whereas at 5 hrs they just hop on porter.
posted by warriorqueen at 6:27 PM on February 19 [4 favorites]

High speed rail is so badly needed to reduce our carbon output.
posted by jb at 9:05 PM on February 19 [3 favorites]

Love the idea but my prediction is a lot of people are gonna get rich doing feasability studies for this and it'll probably never get off the ground. If it does, the budget will baloon to ten times what was estimated and the first trains will run long after I'm retired. Hoping for the best, though! I'd love to get down to Toronto a little more often.
posted by signsofrain at 9:05 PM on February 19 [1 favorite]

For a distance like that, with various provincial regulatory authorities, six years alas sounds about right to optimistic for design and obtaining all signoffs and permissions. I've seen worse, on conventional lines too.

Though I agree this is not very high speed. Conventional rail between Warsaw and Gdansk once they fix the bloody signalling is supposed to take 2 hours for 350 km driving distance (2.5 currently) - up to 200 km/h is fully conventional rail in Europe. It's still a step improvement big enough that yep, I expect the time and externalities savings will be worth it.

(In comparison, the feasibility study and design for the first part of the high speed network in Poland started 2011-ish. About to break ground sometime next year probably.)
posted by I claim sanctuary at 9:46 PM on February 19 [1 favorite]

The REM (a suburban metro with a max speed of 100km/h) is a totally different beast than a 1000km long, 300 km/h HSR line. Why not just hire someone who has actually built HSR?

The operating mode, rolling stock and lines are totally different of course. But it still needed stations, planning, so this is way less weird to me now, than it was when the REM was announced. Also after having done the REM they're probably the world's foremost expert to answer the question, where the fuck do you put another rail line that can go through downtown Montreal? Like seriously where? Are they planning some sharing/synergy with the REM lines? (different tech though)

The CDPQ, for those who don't know, is the institutional investment management crown corporation that manages public and para-public pension funds, they have an infrastructure branch for those projects, but if they're involved it's to make money long term.

Also I found my answer about Trois Riviers, it has not had a Liberal MP since 1984 with the 2021 election resulting in 29.49% BQ, 29.35% Con, 28.63% Liberal (and the money spent by each candidate in the riding sure is interesting).

A stop in Trois-Rivières makes sense if you intend to use this line to develop more regions of the country, it's 1h30 from Montreal and 1h30 from Quebec city, and happens to be the city besides the only bridge crossing the Saint-Laurent between Quebec and Montreal, so this gives reasonable access to people on the south shore. By that logic the Laval station makes sense because it's also 1h30 from downtown Montreal (ok I'm exaggerating slightly here).

Don't know enough about the Toronto area to try to explain why there's isn't another station in the suburb.

It's fun to think about that imaginary train.
posted by WaterAndPixels at 6:03 AM on February 20 [1 favorite]

I think Toronto-Kingston-Ottawa makes a lot more sense than Toronto-Peterborough-Smiths Falls-Ottawa. Maybe add in a Peterborough stop but Smiths Falls instead of Kingston, even if they put the station north of the 401 so that they don't need to worry about other infrastructure, seems really weird to me.
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 12:10 PM on February 20

VIA already owns the tracks from Smith Falls to Ottawa, which is presumably part of the reason the Peterborough-Smith Falls-Ottawa route is more attractive than Kingston-Ottawa (and of course the real estate is just generally a lot more expensive and occupied between Toronto and Kingston). Not that this is a good reason to skip Kingston; the train should go where the people are.

VIA also owns track from Ottawa to Coteau, QC (most of the way to the Island of Montreal). It would probably make more sense just to run HSR direct from Toronto to Montreal with a short spur to Ottawa straight up from the St. Lawrence (25 minutes at 200km/h), but then VIA doesn't get to use their existing right of way.
posted by ssg at 1:22 PM on February 20

You could just leave Ottawa out of it entirely.
No one is clamouring for HSR from Toronto to Smith Falls or to Peterborough.

Southwestern Ontario is left out entirely Windsor London, Guelph Waterloo all major population centres. Close to Detroit
East of Toronto Oshawa, Pickering Kingston they're all shut out.
Forget Ottawa and try to build something where the people, not the politicians are.

Toronto to Trois Rivieres? How much demand is there? Not much.
HSR in the Golden Horeshoe has been a promise for fifty years at least .
I doubt this will go through.
Far too expensive,
And really Toronto to Smith Falls?
For how many billion?
Dougie's tunnel makes more sense lol
posted by yyz at 1:40 PM on February 20

But Kitchener-Cambridge-Waterloo plus Windsor plus London plus Guelph all added together are only slightly bigger than Ottawa-Gatineau. To serve all those cities in SW Ontario would require about 400km of HSR track, while Ottawa to the St. Lawrence is just 80km. So you get way more bang for your buck adding Ottawa (plus you can go both ways, to Montreal and Toronto from Ottawa, both of which are popular routes, while not very many people are clamouring to go to Windsor from Kitchener).
posted by ssg at 2:07 PM on February 20 [2 favorites]

Ottawa to the St. Lawrence is just 80km

Yes. But that they are not proposing that, a spur following the 416 going North.
They are not following 401 to 416
They are proposing following hwy 7 directly to Ottawa which has very few population centres along the way
If you are considering Toronto to Montreal then going to Ottawa first will add at least an hour even with HSR
Toronto to Montreal following 401 with a spur to Ottawa ? ok.
But their plan shows you must go to Ottawa first. An hour saved there is huge. You could add 5 minute stops in Kingston, Oshawa etc and still come out ahead
posted by yyz at 3:12 PM on February 20

I agree, the planned route is not ideal! But it definitely won't add an hour to go via Ottawa, not even close. It's an extra 60km of driving distance, so that would be about 15 minutes extra even at the proposed not very fast speed, assuming the number of stops is equal.

Ottawa isn't some barren land with a few politicians wandering around in the middle of nowhere, it's a large city by Canadian standards, quite close to the 401.
posted by ssg at 4:24 PM on February 20 [1 favorite]

I think there are even odds on whether I will be able to first buy a ticket from Ottawa to Quebec city on a high-speed train or a Zeppelin.

Quebec company "Flying Whales" announces it is starting development of airships.

The race is on.
posted by fimbulvetr at 10:01 AM on February 24