Capacity for religious sentiment may derive from habitual use of drugs
March 16, 2025 2:59 AM Subscribe
Today, Allegro’s theory is remembered as a quintessential example of academic suicide, like a Cambridge egyptologist suddenly confessing a belief in ancient aliens. He was soon forced to resign from his position at the University of Manchester. Amid a conservative backlash to the drug-fuelled counterculture of the ‘70s, his work faded into obscurity, a laughingstock remembered only by a loyal band of fringe conspiracists. And yet, 50 years later, Allegro’s work suddenly seems oddly prescient. from Is God a Mushroom? [Long Now]
Three thoughts:
1 - Anyone who doubts the ability of psilocybin to trigger a spiritual experience has never taken it, or hasn’t taken enough.
2 - It doesn’t take much imagination to visualize why our current social/political/psychological order would want to suppress substances that “improve our ‘social mind,’ our ability to collaborate and feel positive about others.”
3 - I found the article really interesting, but note the absence of Schultes, McKenna, and Wade Davis.
posted by Joan Rivers of Babylon at 4:35 AM on March 16 [15 favorites]
1 - Anyone who doubts the ability of psilocybin to trigger a spiritual experience has never taken it, or hasn’t taken enough.
2 - It doesn’t take much imagination to visualize why our current social/political/psychological order would want to suppress substances that “improve our ‘social mind,’ our ability to collaborate and feel positive about others.”
3 - I found the article really interesting, but note the absence of Schultes, McKenna, and Wade Davis.
posted by Joan Rivers of Babylon at 4:35 AM on March 16 [15 favorites]
The academic study of psychedelics is barely a century old. Most trace its beginnings to the Swiss chemist Albert Hoffman, who first synthesized — and ingested — lysergic acid diethylamide, or LSD, in 01938.
I can’t imagine ingesting a compound I synthesized in a lab, tripping and not concluding I was dying.
I’ve taken a few psychedelics and have a good and spiritual experience as well as very frightening never-ending experiences. I would say the spiritual experiences were profound but I clearly remember thinking “this is all in my head, it isn’t real”. The temptation was strong to give the visions, and more importantly the the feelings, an external presence. But my agnostic brain never got me to believing in God. I’m still open to the idea of there being something , but it hasn’t happened yet. There are a lot of “Medicine People” in several US states now who perform for a fee ceremonies to guide you, often with a group, and there is strong opinion that one’s experience is largely influenced by set and setting , which I can agree with somewhat, but this leaves the door wide open to blame the user on a bad trip versus a spiritual one. So it’s always a win for the guide. It doesn’t take much training to become a guide although some seem to believe they were chosen by the mushroom god to use their gifts to earn a living.
posted by waving at 5:11 AM on March 16 [7 favorites]
I can’t imagine ingesting a compound I synthesized in a lab, tripping and not concluding I was dying.
I’ve taken a few psychedelics and have a good and spiritual experience as well as very frightening never-ending experiences. I would say the spiritual experiences were profound but I clearly remember thinking “this is all in my head, it isn’t real”. The temptation was strong to give the visions, and more importantly the the feelings, an external presence. But my agnostic brain never got me to believing in God. I’m still open to the idea of there being something , but it hasn’t happened yet. There are a lot of “Medicine People” in several US states now who perform for a fee ceremonies to guide you, often with a group, and there is strong opinion that one’s experience is largely influenced by set and setting , which I can agree with somewhat, but this leaves the door wide open to blame the user on a bad trip versus a spiritual one. So it’s always a win for the guide. It doesn’t take much training to become a guide although some seem to believe they were chosen by the mushroom god to use their gifts to earn a living.
posted by waving at 5:11 AM on March 16 [7 favorites]
In the cognitive science of religion, the dominant explanation for the origin of the belief in gods has long been to blame a “hyperactive agency detection device”: in other words, an inclination, coded into our brain, to imagine threats where there are none — to imagine an active threat behind a rustling bush or bubbling water.This quote includes a precise, accurate and succinct description of my year-long moderate-to-severe methamphetamine psychosis that still mildly rears its head when I have more than 200 or so milligrams of caffeine a day. One of the big reasons I moved two thousand miles away from the local twelve-step community in Southern California was its insistence that activating this (perhaps emergent) feature of human consciousness was a good thing and its annoyance with my reluctance to do so. Angel numbers, divine intervention, and being manipulated by higher powers feel too much like being high again to me.
posted by infinitewindow at 5:31 AM on March 16 [12 favorites]
1 - Anyone who doubts the ability of psilocybin to trigger a spiritual experience has never taken it, or hasn’t taken enough.We might just be turned off by this kind of smugness from people who do take it.
posted by JoeBlubaugh at 6:30 AM on March 16 [4 favorites]
the local twelve-step community
they thought a psychosis triggered by stimulant drugs was good?
posted by knock my sock and i'll clean your clock at 6:35 AM on March 16 [2 favorites]
they thought a psychosis triggered by stimulant drugs was good?
posted by knock my sock and i'll clean your clock at 6:35 AM on March 16 [2 favorites]
1 - Anyone who doubts the ability of psilocybin to trigger a spiritual experience has never taken it, or hasn’t taken enough.
We might just be turned off by this kind of smugness from people who do take it.
I took this to be more of a factual statement than a brag. Having a spiritual experience doesn't necessarily make one a better person, not every spiritual experience is meaningful. It could just be an effect of drug use! I think it was more like, "Anyone who doubts the ability of beans to give you gas has never eaten beans, or hasn't eaten enough."
Drugs do have effects and people who experience certain ones are likely to interpret the effects as a spiritual experience.
posted by snofoam at 6:46 AM on March 16 [23 favorites]
We might just be turned off by this kind of smugness from people who do take it.
I took this to be more of a factual statement than a brag. Having a spiritual experience doesn't necessarily make one a better person, not every spiritual experience is meaningful. It could just be an effect of drug use! I think it was more like, "Anyone who doubts the ability of beans to give you gas has never eaten beans, or hasn't eaten enough."
Drugs do have effects and people who experience certain ones are likely to interpret the effects as a spiritual experience.
posted by snofoam at 6:46 AM on March 16 [23 favorites]
In the cognitive science of religion, the dominant explanation for the origin of the belief in gods has long been to blame a “hyperactive agency detection device
This reminds me of Douglas Adams' talk Parrots, the Universe and Everything (transcript), with its explanation of our propensity to see agency/goal/purpose in things, and the "puddle of water" allegory:
Now, we always ask ourselves “why” because we look for intention around us, because we always do something with intention. You know, we boil an egg in order to eat it. So, we look at the rocks and we look at the trees, and we wonder what intention is here, even though it doesn’t have intention. So we think, what did this person who made this world intend it for. And this is the point where you think, “Well, it fits me very well. (Laughter.) You know, the caves and the forests, and the stream, and the mammoths. He must have made it for me! I mean, there’s no other conclusion you can come to.”
And it’s rather like a puddle waking up one morning—I know they don’t normally do this, but allow me, I’m a science fiction writer. (Laughter.) A puddle wakes up one morning and thinks, “This is a very interesting world I find myself in. It fits me very neatly. In fact, it fits me so neatly, I mean, really precise, isn’t it? (Laughter.) It must have been made to have me in it!”
posted by JSilva at 6:47 AM on March 16 [7 favorites]
This reminds me of Douglas Adams' talk Parrots, the Universe and Everything (transcript), with its explanation of our propensity to see agency/goal/purpose in things, and the "puddle of water" allegory:
Now, we always ask ourselves “why” because we look for intention around us, because we always do something with intention. You know, we boil an egg in order to eat it. So, we look at the rocks and we look at the trees, and we wonder what intention is here, even though it doesn’t have intention. So we think, what did this person who made this world intend it for. And this is the point where you think, “Well, it fits me very well. (Laughter.) You know, the caves and the forests, and the stream, and the mammoths. He must have made it for me! I mean, there’s no other conclusion you can come to.”
And it’s rather like a puddle waking up one morning—I know they don’t normally do this, but allow me, I’m a science fiction writer. (Laughter.) A puddle wakes up one morning and thinks, “This is a very interesting world I find myself in. It fits me very neatly. In fact, it fits me so neatly, I mean, really precise, isn’t it? (Laughter.) It must have been made to have me in it!”
posted by JSilva at 6:47 AM on March 16 [7 favorites]
idk sometimes im willing to believe in god when i take amphetamines and can function in this nightmare world.
posted by AlbertCalavicci at 7:01 AM on March 16 [5 favorites]
posted by AlbertCalavicci at 7:01 AM on March 16 [5 favorites]
I'm curious about the 5-digit dates, e.g. 01953. Is that a thing??
The way things are going, it doesn't look like we'll need them.
posted by MtDewd at 7:03 AM on March 16 [3 favorites]
The way things are going, it doesn't look like we'll need them.
posted by MtDewd at 7:03 AM on March 16 [3 favorites]
"There isn’t a being as eldritch and superlative yet silly and frivolous as a mushroom."
"the fruits of the earth do not exist to be worth something to us"
"You cannot kill me in a way that matters."
posted by Rhaomi at 7:24 AM on March 16 [3 favorites]
"the fruits of the earth do not exist to be worth something to us"
"You cannot kill me in a way that matters."
posted by Rhaomi at 7:24 AM on March 16 [3 favorites]
When I’ve taken psilocybin, I’ve felt at one with nature and the earth. I have seen cosmic energy coursing up through the grass and the trees. All I want to do is lie content in the dirt, and let myself be totally consumed by it. Isn’t that exactly what a mushroom would want us to think?Really enjoyed the article, and found this very funny and true; thank you!
posted by Panthalassa at 7:30 AM on March 16 [7 favorites]
The thing is, it’s just not true that psychedelics reliably produce spiritual experiences. Often they do. Often they don’t, even in high doses.
(And there’s a lot of social pressure to claim they do even when they don’t, since just using them for fun is sort of looked down on as less spiritually advanced. I’ve been to a lot of perfectly nice “listen to trippy music and run around all silly until 3 AM” parties where everyone felt the need to talk about what we were doing like it was a sacrament.)
The standard explanation for why some people don’t have spiritual experiences is “set and setting” — but this makes the whole thing really unfalsifiable, since any time someone has a bad time, or even a fun party time with no spiritual content, you can claim they had the wrong mindset, even if there’s no independent evidence of that.
posted by Birds, snakes, and aeroplanes at 7:30 AM on March 16 [9 favorites]
(And there’s a lot of social pressure to claim they do even when they don’t, since just using them for fun is sort of looked down on as less spiritually advanced. I’ve been to a lot of perfectly nice “listen to trippy music and run around all silly until 3 AM” parties where everyone felt the need to talk about what we were doing like it was a sacrament.)
The standard explanation for why some people don’t have spiritual experiences is “set and setting” — but this makes the whole thing really unfalsifiable, since any time someone has a bad time, or even a fun party time with no spiritual content, you can claim they had the wrong mindset, even if there’s no independent evidence of that.
posted by Birds, snakes, and aeroplanes at 7:30 AM on March 16 [9 favorites]
Like, they’re clearly a genuine spiritual experience SOMETIMES FOR SOME PEOPLE. But I don’t think everyone can access spiritual experiences that way, and most of the people I’ve met taking even large doses were doing it for fun, and that’s fine.
posted by Birds, snakes, and aeroplanes at 7:33 AM on March 16 [4 favorites]
posted by Birds, snakes, and aeroplanes at 7:33 AM on March 16 [4 favorites]
→
That's a Long Now thing, aka the publisher of this piece.
I still use Long Now-style dates on my semi-abandoned blog because it seemed like a good idea when I set it up in 02003. I keep them, partly because I get an annoyed comment from someone every couple of years about them, but mostly because it would take some effort to turn them off.
posted by scruss at 7:36 AM on March 16 [3 favorites]
I'm curious about the 5-digit dates, e.g. 01953. Is that a thing??
That's a Long Now thing, aka the publisher of this piece.
I still use Long Now-style dates on my semi-abandoned blog because it seemed like a good idea when I set it up in 02003. I keep them, partly because I get an annoyed comment from someone every couple of years about them, but mostly because it would take some effort to turn them off.
posted by scruss at 7:36 AM on March 16 [3 favorites]
Not to derail the conversation here, but:
...like a Cambridge egyptologist suddenly confessing a belief in ancient aliens.
Well we all know what happens then -- they get recruited by a top-secret USAF program to decipher an ancient artifact that turns out to create wormholes to other planets, and end up saving the world several times over.
I mean, we've seen it on TV, it must be true...
posted by Pedantzilla at 7:37 AM on March 16 [8 favorites]
...like a Cambridge egyptologist suddenly confessing a belief in ancient aliens.
Well we all know what happens then -- they get recruited by a top-secret USAF program to decipher an ancient artifact that turns out to create wormholes to other planets, and end up saving the world several times over.
I mean, we've seen it on TV, it must be true...
posted by Pedantzilla at 7:37 AM on March 16 [8 favorites]
It's clear psychedelics influenced some religions, but religions have evolved and adjusted their social roles over time. Ancient Egypts religion might've primarily provided for social control. Abrahamic religions have seemingly evolved primarily to avoid moral universalism, which justify empires, conquests, etc or simply keep cults seperate.
posted by jeffburdges at 7:42 AM on March 16 [3 favorites]
posted by jeffburdges at 7:42 AM on March 16 [3 favorites]
That Douglas Adams piece actually goes really perfectly with last week’s “South Korea (and global) replacement birth rate is in free fall” thread
posted by toodleydoodley at 7:45 AM on March 16 [1 favorite]
posted by toodleydoodley at 7:45 AM on March 16 [1 favorite]
Having read through the article I'm not really sure what it's trying to argue. Allegro's work is transparently silly. The claim that mushrooms can induce mystical experience and therefore religion must be downstream from mushroom use seems about as well founded as saying that alcohol can induce sexual desire so therefore sexual desire must have arisen from alcohol use.
The idea that mushroom use could ignite some sort of positive religious revival, ignores that people using these within a capitalist/extractive/individualist society rather than a traditional/integrated/communal one are going to frame their experiences in radically different ways (just ask all those Pentecostals who have deep experiences of mystical communal unity on Sunday and then vote for politicians intent on pillaging the earth).
posted by nangua at 7:45 AM on March 16 [11 favorites]
The idea that mushroom use could ignite some sort of positive religious revival, ignores that people using these within a capitalist/extractive/individualist society rather than a traditional/integrated/communal one are going to frame their experiences in radically different ways (just ask all those Pentecostals who have deep experiences of mystical communal unity on Sunday and then vote for politicians intent on pillaging the earth).
posted by nangua at 7:45 AM on March 16 [11 favorites]
I'm open to the idea that psychedelics had a major impact on the development of world religions (though i did not read to the end of the article and am not in a position to assess the evidence), but the idea that "Anyone who doubts the ability of psilocybin to trigger a spiritual experience has never taken it, or hasn’t taken enough" doesn't land right with me.
Maybe i just never took enough mushrooms but my experience of drugs has been pretty banal and boring and I don't think there is any one substance or one experience that is guaranteed to be experienced as spiritual or transformative.
I will say that taking drugs, along with other intense activities (pregnancy, birth, sex, kink, travel, intense exercise, collective protest, collective experiences of music, attending certain religious rituals, death of loved ones, to name some) in aggregate, provide access to new ways of being, to spirituality, to mental and emotional growth, to a sense of oneness or connection with the larger world. Intense experiences are good for us, I think. But mushrooms aren't one weird trick to finding god and I would argue that trying to get to god, whatever that is, through ingesting a psychoactive compound alone, is a shortcut that is unlikely to have a the depth of impact that is desired.
posted by latkes at 7:50 AM on March 16 [5 favorites]
Maybe i just never took enough mushrooms but my experience of drugs has been pretty banal and boring and I don't think there is any one substance or one experience that is guaranteed to be experienced as spiritual or transformative.
I will say that taking drugs, along with other intense activities (pregnancy, birth, sex, kink, travel, intense exercise, collective protest, collective experiences of music, attending certain religious rituals, death of loved ones, to name some) in aggregate, provide access to new ways of being, to spirituality, to mental and emotional growth, to a sense of oneness or connection with the larger world. Intense experiences are good for us, I think. But mushrooms aren't one weird trick to finding god and I would argue that trying to get to god, whatever that is, through ingesting a psychoactive compound alone, is a shortcut that is unlikely to have a the depth of impact that is desired.
posted by latkes at 7:50 AM on March 16 [5 favorites]
Just to clarify what I posted upstream: “the ability of psilocybin to trigger a spiritual experience”, not the certainty of it. I never meant to imply that it is good, right, or effective in all circumstances.
posted by Joan Rivers of Babylon at 8:07 AM on March 16 [6 favorites]
posted by Joan Rivers of Babylon at 8:07 AM on March 16 [6 favorites]
We might just be turned off by this kind of smugness from people who do take it.
And yet your nose being out of joint does not keep this joint out from under my nose.
I would argue that trying to get to god, whatever that is, through ingesting a psychoactive compound alone, is a shortcut that is unlikely to have a the depth of impact that is desired.
Are we there yet?
posted by flabdablet at 8:13 AM on March 16 [3 favorites]
And yet your nose being out of joint does not keep this joint out from under my nose.
I would argue that trying to get to god, whatever that is, through ingesting a psychoactive compound alone, is a shortcut that is unlikely to have a the depth of impact that is desired.
Are we there yet?
posted by flabdablet at 8:13 AM on March 16 [3 favorites]
So was Lennon, if memory serves
posted by flabdablet at 8:22 AM on March 16 [4 favorites]
posted by flabdablet at 8:22 AM on March 16 [4 favorites]
This theory appears in The Transmigration of Timothy Archer by Philip K Dick. Which I was surprised to discover was a real thing, and not simply the product of Dick's wild imagination.
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 8:25 AM on March 16 [2 favorites]
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 8:25 AM on March 16 [2 favorites]
Took a class from a Prof. Merlin (no, really) at the University of Hawai'i in the '80s that made a related argument. Not all the way to claiming "Jesus is a mushroom," but that psychedelic experiences are at the root of many of our ideas of magic and religion. I still remember that course better than I remember anything I learned about partial differential equations. He may or may not have been (more or less, YMMV) right, but his argument and supporting evidence definitely weren't uninteresting.
posted by kikaider01 at 8:36 AM on March 16 [3 favorites]
posted by kikaider01 at 8:36 AM on March 16 [3 favorites]
Didn't Carlos Castaneda already forge this territory, allegedly with ayahuasca, LSD, and a Yaqui shaman he called Don Juan?
Castaneda was later found to be, at worst, a fraud, and at best, an imaginative writer. However, for a while in the 1970s his fictional depictions of the drug-enhanced "teachings" he'd received were quite popular in the U.S., even among non-drug users. (I have a couple of his books. They were fascinating reading at the time.)
posted by fuse theorem at 9:05 AM on March 16 [3 favorites]
Castaneda was later found to be, at worst, a fraud, and at best, an imaginative writer. However, for a while in the 1970s his fictional depictions of the drug-enhanced "teachings" he'd received were quite popular in the U.S., even among non-drug users. (I have a couple of his books. They were fascinating reading at the time.)
posted by fuse theorem at 9:05 AM on March 16 [3 favorites]
In the first couple of books Castaneda’s Don Juan primarily used peyote (mescaline), mushrooms (psilocybin), and datura (scopolamine, atropine). But later books highly de-emphasized the use of such medicines.
posted by Insert Clever Name Here at 9:20 AM on March 16 [2 favorites]
posted by Insert Clever Name Here at 9:20 AM on March 16 [2 favorites]
Funny, I know several people who got cured of Catholicism after eating mushrooms.
For me the “spiritual” experience was more like “This amazing experience is all in my head. But then everything I experience is in my head. Maybe I could have more amazing experiences in my head every day that I don’t eat psychedelics”
posted by Dr. Curare at 9:33 AM on March 16 [8 favorites]
For me the “spiritual” experience was more like “This amazing experience is all in my head. But then everything I experience is in my head. Maybe I could have more amazing experiences in my head every day that I don’t eat psychedelics”
posted by Dr. Curare at 9:33 AM on March 16 [8 favorites]
The five-digit dates were quite distracting. And why five, why not six, or eight? I have a hard time believing that if there are people around in 9999 that they’ll be saved from the “year 10K crisis” because they’re still lexically sorting their dates and the Long Now Foundation promoted using a leading zero for the last eighty centuries...
But I guess it makes as much sense as the premise of the article, which seems to be—like science fiction—more about today than about the period in question.
Interesting, though.
posted by Gilgamesh's Chauffeur at 9:39 AM on March 16 [1 favorite]
But I guess it makes as much sense as the premise of the article, which seems to be—like science fiction—more about today than about the period in question.
Interesting, though.
posted by Gilgamesh's Chauffeur at 9:39 AM on March 16 [1 favorite]
huh, my best psychedelic experiences had me sensing "it's all in my head" as my head opening and expanding to include all around me. this was most powerful in nature settings. It wasn't spiritual per se, but did have an element of awe, a sense of the vastness of existence.
posted by supermedusa at 9:51 AM on March 16 [8 favorites]
posted by supermedusa at 9:51 AM on March 16 [8 favorites]
I took mushrooms several times some years after first taking LSD.
They tasted terrible and the effects were mainly that I saw flaring rainbows around moving objects and when I moved my eyes. Distinctly underwhelming.
However, around 20 years later I started having strong LSD flashbacks whenever I ate 100% whole grain rye Rytak crackers, to a level I felt I had to stop eating them.
Did ergot or another fungus capable of producing similar alkaloids somehow establish itself in my microbiome? I did experience sharp pains in my stomach that felt like pinpoint muscle cramps when I took LSD, and I wondered then whether whoever made the LSD had bothered to sterilize the egotized rye starting mixture at any point.
So I don't think mushrooms are the only plants growing along pathways to externally induced religious experiences, or even ranked among the most potent.
posted by jamjam at 9:57 AM on March 16 [5 favorites]
They tasted terrible and the effects were mainly that I saw flaring rainbows around moving objects and when I moved my eyes. Distinctly underwhelming.
However, around 20 years later I started having strong LSD flashbacks whenever I ate 100% whole grain rye Rytak crackers, to a level I felt I had to stop eating them.
Did ergot or another fungus capable of producing similar alkaloids somehow establish itself in my microbiome? I did experience sharp pains in my stomach that felt like pinpoint muscle cramps when I took LSD, and I wondered then whether whoever made the LSD had bothered to sterilize the egotized rye starting mixture at any point.
So I don't think mushrooms are the only plants growing along pathways to externally induced religious experiences, or even ranked among the most potent.
posted by jamjam at 9:57 AM on March 16 [5 favorites]
I read The Sacred Mushroom and the Cross in the 1990s, it was a cult classic and I managed to track it down before it was easy to do so online. The reading is dense. John Allegro was an interesting character. He credentials were solid, and he wasn't into drug or counter culture at all, but how he got the his conclusions are debatable.
1 - Anyone who doubts the ability of psilocybin to trigger a spiritual experience has never taken it, or hasn’t taken enough.
I agree that this is factual. And if you disagree then try it yourself and get back to us.
posted by Liquidwolf at 10:05 AM on March 16 [3 favorites]
1 - Anyone who doubts the ability of psilocybin to trigger a spiritual experience has never taken it, or hasn’t taken enough.
I agree that this is factual. And if you disagree then try it yourself and get back to us.
posted by Liquidwolf at 10:05 AM on March 16 [3 favorites]
I'm curious about the 5-digit dates, e.g. 01953
The Long Now Foundation was founded in the late 1990's. At that time, the Y2K crisis or "Millenium Bug" was looming because at that time years were entered as two digits representing the years since 1900, a system which only could work in 1900 and the first 99 years of 20th Century. To combat this kind of short sightedness, the foundation encourages imagination at the timescale of civilization — the next and last 10,000 years — a timespan they call the long now. They consider topics like the long term storage of nuclear waste. Even their 5 digit years invite one to imagine programmers in the 99990's struggling with the Y100K crisis.
posted by otherchaz at 10:15 AM on March 16 [2 favorites]
The Long Now Foundation was founded in the late 1990's. At that time, the Y2K crisis or "Millenium Bug" was looming because at that time years were entered as two digits representing the years since 1900, a system which only could work in 1900 and the first 99 years of 20th Century. To combat this kind of short sightedness, the foundation encourages imagination at the timescale of civilization — the next and last 10,000 years — a timespan they call the long now. They consider topics like the long term storage of nuclear waste. Even their 5 digit years invite one to imagine programmers in the 99990's struggling with the Y100K crisis.
posted by otherchaz at 10:15 AM on March 16 [2 favorites]
The brain is an electro-chemical machine that is constantly interpreting stimuli. It is no surprise that when psilocybin is added to this brain chemistry, which disrupts the established pathways with which your brain communicates between regions, it will interpret and even dream up entirely new stimuli in wildly different ways.
In your brain's attempt to categorize the experience or assing to it some meaning, you may or may not interpret these experiences as "spiritual".
posted by pmbuko at 10:25 AM on March 16 [3 favorites]
In your brain's attempt to categorize the experience or assing to it some meaning, you may or may not interpret these experiences as "spiritual".
posted by pmbuko at 10:25 AM on March 16 [3 favorites]
they thought a psychosis triggered by stimulant drugs was good?
Many influential people in that particular twelve-step community evangelize their belief that a certain perspective on the universe is an unalloyed Good Thing and experience cognitive dissonance when I share my experience and documentation indicating that it was not (especially when it comes to coffee).
posted by infinitewindow at 10:33 AM on March 16 [1 favorite]
Many influential people in that particular twelve-step community evangelize their belief that a certain perspective on the universe is an unalloyed Good Thing and experience cognitive dissonance when I share my experience and documentation indicating that it was not (especially when it comes to coffee).
posted by infinitewindow at 10:33 AM on March 16 [1 favorite]
How does the psychedelic spiritual experience of psilocybin differ from the one that I get with a bad migraine? Does anyone who has also had this kind of migraine and taken mushrooms want to describe it?
Also, how do drug induced spiritual experiences differ from spiritual experiences caused by psychosis?
I've never tried psilocybin, and since I find the psychedelics that I get with the migraines exhausting, over stimulating and intrusive, there is zero chance I will try them. I figure that I have such bad associations with experiencing altered consciousness and the light shows, and other sensations during migraines, that if I ever did try the mushrooms I'd experience it as a bad trip. But I am curious.
posted by Jane the Brown at 10:51 AM on March 16 [1 favorite]
Also, how do drug induced spiritual experiences differ from spiritual experiences caused by psychosis?
I've never tried psilocybin, and since I find the psychedelics that I get with the migraines exhausting, over stimulating and intrusive, there is zero chance I will try them. I figure that I have such bad associations with experiencing altered consciousness and the light shows, and other sensations during migraines, that if I ever did try the mushrooms I'd experience it as a bad trip. But I am curious.
posted by Jane the Brown at 10:51 AM on March 16 [1 favorite]
Many influential people in that particular twelve-step community evangelize their belief that a certain perspective on the universe is an unalloyed Good Thing
they do all certainly evangelize on the value of their perspective(s) but this one sounds singular and weird, sorry to hear this! no psych meds, i’m guessing, but that’s fine??? wait is it like “bad news about the neuropsych damage but maybe you can get with your Higher Power this way”?
posted by knock my sock and i'll clean your clock at 11:26 AM on March 16 [1 favorite]
they do all certainly evangelize on the value of their perspective(s) but this one sounds singular and weird, sorry to hear this! no psych meds, i’m guessing, but that’s fine??? wait is it like “bad news about the neuropsych damage but maybe you can get with your Higher Power this way”?
posted by knock my sock and i'll clean your clock at 11:26 AM on March 16 [1 favorite]
Dr. Curare nails it here: For me the “spiritual” experience was more like “This amazing experience is all in my head. But then everything I experience is in my head. Maybe I could have more amazing experiences in my head every day that I don’t eat psychedelics.”
And latkes is also correct that: mushrooms aren't one weird trick to finding god and I would argue that trying to get to god, whatever that is, through ingesting a psychoactive compound alone, is a shortcut that is unlikely to have a the depth of impact that is desired.
Buuuut, as sometime who once upon a 1990's life was the (ahem) logistical supplies facilitator for many people's psychedelic experiences, I can say a few things with some authority.
First, this stuff just isn't universal. People have a really wide variety of experiences, which can be really different even for the same person from one instance to the next, and some people, because of prior beliefs, neurological wiring, or whatever, are not going to have that spiritual aspect to their experience. But, that said, it certainly can produce that experience, and on balance does so with what is probably statistically significant predictability.
From the article, I think the basic premise, that
"a growing body of scholars are arriving at the conclusion that psychedelics must have played a role in the evolution of human spirituality" is probably a slam dunk. We just have too much evidence, as detailed later in the piece, that people have known about the ability of certain plants and mushrooms to produce spiritual experience for basically as far back as we can look in history. And as human history fades into the mist of prehistory, one thing we can say with certainly is that people were close to nature and told mythological stories about the natural world. To speculate that they didn't know about psychedelic plants and mushrooms seems unlikely in the extreme, and given that psychedelics do on balance produce spiritual experiences, there is going to be a relationship there. Do I think a maximalist interpretation of all of this is good? No. Maximalist interpretations of complex systems are almost always oversimplifications and highly problematic if one wants to build conclusions on them. This is especially and emphatically true for insights gained during psychedelic experiences.
That said, speaking as a Busdhist, a cancer survivor and also a long time advocate for psychedelics, when you do eventually come face to face at close proximity with mortality, having the familiarity with the numinous that psychedelics can provide, or knowledge of how the mind can get carried away by fear or wild interpretations in the face of high levels of uncertainty that one can also learn from mindful use of psychedelics.... These things are useful. It's definitely a net positive experience and regardless of ancient history, I am deeply confident that psychedelics can be enriching and helpful with regard to existential or in extremis aspects of our lives, with or without any theological or even teleological implications.
posted by Smedly, Butlerian jihadi at 11:28 AM on March 16 [8 favorites]
And latkes is also correct that: mushrooms aren't one weird trick to finding god and I would argue that trying to get to god, whatever that is, through ingesting a psychoactive compound alone, is a shortcut that is unlikely to have a the depth of impact that is desired.
Buuuut, as sometime who once upon a 1990's life was the (ahem) logistical supplies facilitator for many people's psychedelic experiences, I can say a few things with some authority.
First, this stuff just isn't universal. People have a really wide variety of experiences, which can be really different even for the same person from one instance to the next, and some people, because of prior beliefs, neurological wiring, or whatever, are not going to have that spiritual aspect to their experience. But, that said, it certainly can produce that experience, and on balance does so with what is probably statistically significant predictability.
From the article, I think the basic premise, that
"a growing body of scholars are arriving at the conclusion that psychedelics must have played a role in the evolution of human spirituality" is probably a slam dunk. We just have too much evidence, as detailed later in the piece, that people have known about the ability of certain plants and mushrooms to produce spiritual experience for basically as far back as we can look in history. And as human history fades into the mist of prehistory, one thing we can say with certainly is that people were close to nature and told mythological stories about the natural world. To speculate that they didn't know about psychedelic plants and mushrooms seems unlikely in the extreme, and given that psychedelics do on balance produce spiritual experiences, there is going to be a relationship there. Do I think a maximalist interpretation of all of this is good? No. Maximalist interpretations of complex systems are almost always oversimplifications and highly problematic if one wants to build conclusions on them. This is especially and emphatically true for insights gained during psychedelic experiences.
That said, speaking as a Busdhist, a cancer survivor and also a long time advocate for psychedelics, when you do eventually come face to face at close proximity with mortality, having the familiarity with the numinous that psychedelics can provide, or knowledge of how the mind can get carried away by fear or wild interpretations in the face of high levels of uncertainty that one can also learn from mindful use of psychedelics.... These things are useful. It's definitely a net positive experience and regardless of ancient history, I am deeply confident that psychedelics can be enriching and helpful with regard to existential or in extremis aspects of our lives, with or without any theological or even teleological implications.
posted by Smedly, Butlerian jihadi at 11:28 AM on March 16 [8 favorites]
> [nih:] “exploratory study suggests there is an enduring therapeutic effect in migraine headache after a single administration of psilocybin”
posted by HearHere at 11:37 AM on March 16 [4 favorites]
posted by HearHere at 11:37 AM on March 16 [4 favorites]
How does the psychedelic spiritual experience of psilocybin differ from the one that I get with a bad migraine
I'm not familiar with what kind of psychedelic spiritual experience you could get from a migraine. I 've never heard of that happening with migraines.
But I don't see how it could be remotely similar considering one if brought ton by consuming psilocybin and the other isn't. I mean, why would they be comparable at all? The psilocybin experience can include intense closed eye visuals, ecstatic states, revelations etc.
posted by Liquidwolf at 11:45 AM on March 16 [1 favorite]
I'm not familiar with what kind of psychedelic spiritual experience you could get from a migraine. I 've never heard of that happening with migraines.
But I don't see how it could be remotely similar considering one if brought ton by consuming psilocybin and the other isn't. I mean, why would they be comparable at all? The psilocybin experience can include intense closed eye visuals, ecstatic states, revelations etc.
posted by Liquidwolf at 11:45 AM on March 16 [1 favorite]
If it's true, it really is the final nail in the coffin of drug taking.
posted by nicolin at 11:50 AM on March 16 [2 favorites]
posted by nicolin at 11:50 AM on March 16 [2 favorites]
Morel universalism
posted by Pastor of Muppets at 12:24 PM on March 16 [7 favorites]
posted by Pastor of Muppets at 12:24 PM on March 16 [7 favorites]
3 - I found the article really interesting, but note the absence of Schultes, McKenna, and Wade Davis.
How could Terence McKenna not be mentioned in this article? He coined the "stoned ape" theory of psychedelics ( mushrooms specifically ) being a catalyst to human evolution and the creation of language. This makes me question the knowledge of the author.
posted by Liquidwolf at 12:51 PM on March 16 [4 favorites]
How could Terence McKenna not be mentioned in this article? He coined the "stoned ape" theory of psychedelics ( mushrooms specifically ) being a catalyst to human evolution and the creation of language. This makes me question the knowledge of the author.
posted by Liquidwolf at 12:51 PM on March 16 [4 favorites]
How does the psychedelic spiritual experience of psilocybin differ from the one that I get with a bad migraine?
For starters, the mushroom trip doesn’t hurt, which sounds kind of trivial but it makes a difference.
But also, it isn’t just visual sparkles and vague confusion the way (in my experience) a migraine aura is. It’s also… like having your creativity turned up in a certain way, and your “no, don’t be ridiculous” filter turned down. Like, you can usually still tell what’s physically real, but it’s way easier to get caught up in weird or silly or scary or genuinely deep and spiritual imagination and speculation. In my experience, migraine reduces my power of creativity and imagination, and just sort of turns my brain into wet mud.
posted by Birds, snakes, and aeroplanes at 1:00 PM on March 16 [3 favorites]
For starters, the mushroom trip doesn’t hurt, which sounds kind of trivial but it makes a difference.
But also, it isn’t just visual sparkles and vague confusion the way (in my experience) a migraine aura is. It’s also… like having your creativity turned up in a certain way, and your “no, don’t be ridiculous” filter turned down. Like, you can usually still tell what’s physically real, but it’s way easier to get caught up in weird or silly or scary or genuinely deep and spiritual imagination and speculation. In my experience, migraine reduces my power of creativity and imagination, and just sort of turns my brain into wet mud.
posted by Birds, snakes, and aeroplanes at 1:00 PM on March 16 [3 favorites]
Western reactions to shamanism over time are quite a story. First, shamans were seen as agents of the devil. Then as tricksters and fakes. Freudians came along and decided they were psychotic. Then the West discovered drugs and altered consciousness was good actually.
Once you start looking, there is evidence all over the world of a close relationship between altered consciousness and religion. As the article notes, Vedic Hinduism used soma, and the descriptions of soma trips in the Rigveda sound pretty wild. (By contrast Zoroastrian haoma, though cognate, is only a mild stimulant.). The ancient Chinese Songs of Chu suggest shamanic origins. Many a Christian sect started with ecstatic experiences... they don't call 'em Quakers because of their taste in video games.
But altered consciousness doesn't just come from drugs. Fatigue and drums are good initiators. Some people can trance pretty much at will.
And for that matter, many religions have no interest at all in altered states of mind.
posted by zompist at 1:10 PM on March 16 [6 favorites]
Once you start looking, there is evidence all over the world of a close relationship between altered consciousness and religion. As the article notes, Vedic Hinduism used soma, and the descriptions of soma trips in the Rigveda sound pretty wild. (By contrast Zoroastrian haoma, though cognate, is only a mild stimulant.). The ancient Chinese Songs of Chu suggest shamanic origins. Many a Christian sect started with ecstatic experiences... they don't call 'em Quakers because of their taste in video games.
But altered consciousness doesn't just come from drugs. Fatigue and drums are good initiators. Some people can trance pretty much at will.
And for that matter, many religions have no interest at all in altered states of mind.
posted by zompist at 1:10 PM on March 16 [6 favorites]
How does the psychedelic spiritual experience of psilocybin differ from the one that I get with a bad migraine? Does anyone who has also had this kind of migraine and taken mushrooms want to describe it?
Once I had a migraine aura where I thought God was suddenly physically present in the extended stay hotel room where my girlfriend and I were making dinner plans, so not an environment that encouraged any type of spiritual awareness. I saw colorful lights moving around above me and to the left - they looked a bit like if you took a long strip of that mylar foil stuff they make balloons out of, held one end in each hand, and twisted your hands in opposite directions. I thought these lights were God and I felt a sense of euphoria being in their presence. This experience was short, unresponsive to my environment, and not persistent (after the aura ended the feeling went away and I did not interpret it as a true encounter with God).
The first time I took mushrooms, the experience lasted several hours and went through different phases that were influenced by the things around me like the music or the temperature of the room or whether I was sitting on something soft or hard. I found these sensory experiences interesting or pleasurable, whereas when I have a migraine I only want coldness, darkness, and silence. The exception was some of the visual disturbances, seeing colors and patterns everywhere and that kind of thing, which reminded me so much of migraines that I found them kind of unpleasant. The other big difference was that some of the experiences I had during the trip changed how I think and feel about certain things in positive ways, maybe permanently.
It's possible that a migraine experience could be more dynamic and cause big spiritual or emotional changes if the psychedelic part lasted longer and I didn't know that afterwards I would experience a lot of pain for a long time, or maybe if I was a very spiritual person and so inclined to see the whole thing, including the pain, through that lens.
posted by birthday cake at 1:21 PM on March 16 [2 favorites]
Once I had a migraine aura where I thought God was suddenly physically present in the extended stay hotel room where my girlfriend and I were making dinner plans, so not an environment that encouraged any type of spiritual awareness. I saw colorful lights moving around above me and to the left - they looked a bit like if you took a long strip of that mylar foil stuff they make balloons out of, held one end in each hand, and twisted your hands in opposite directions. I thought these lights were God and I felt a sense of euphoria being in their presence. This experience was short, unresponsive to my environment, and not persistent (after the aura ended the feeling went away and I did not interpret it as a true encounter with God).
The first time I took mushrooms, the experience lasted several hours and went through different phases that were influenced by the things around me like the music or the temperature of the room or whether I was sitting on something soft or hard. I found these sensory experiences interesting or pleasurable, whereas when I have a migraine I only want coldness, darkness, and silence. The exception was some of the visual disturbances, seeing colors and patterns everywhere and that kind of thing, which reminded me so much of migraines that I found them kind of unpleasant. The other big difference was that some of the experiences I had during the trip changed how I think and feel about certain things in positive ways, maybe permanently.
It's possible that a migraine experience could be more dynamic and cause big spiritual or emotional changes if the psychedelic part lasted longer and I didn't know that afterwards I would experience a lot of pain for a long time, or maybe if I was a very spiritual person and so inclined to see the whole thing, including the pain, through that lens.
posted by birthday cake at 1:21 PM on March 16 [2 favorites]
I find a migraine totally the opposite. I don't get auras, just throbbing pain and the desire to go to my bed, close all the drapes for darkness, block out all the sound I can, and wait for it to be over. Sometimes, when I used to do psychedelics, too late in the evening, I did have the "wait for it to be over" vibe so I could actually go to sleep, but I wanted music and light and nature, and didn't feel like I wanted to die so the pain would stop...
And as mentioned above, when you realize, "this is all just in my head... Wait a minute, everything is just all in my head", is a pretty spiritual enlightenment.
posted by Windopaene at 1:30 PM on March 16 [2 favorites]
And as mentioned above, when you realize, "this is all just in my head... Wait a minute, everything is just all in my head", is a pretty spiritual enlightenment.
posted by Windopaene at 1:30 PM on March 16 [2 favorites]
or maybe if I was a very spiritual person and so inclined to see the whole thing, including the pain, through that lens.
Yeah, this is a good point. Having a visual light show and then excruciating pain seems like the sort of thing where if I was already, I don't know, a medieval Catholic nun, I'd absolutely be like "Wow, God is present and is testing me with suffering for my spiritual benefit." That still seems very different from a mushroom experience. But it would for sure be a religious experience.
posted by Birds, snakes, and aeroplanes at 1:59 PM on March 16 [3 favorites]
Yeah, this is a good point. Having a visual light show and then excruciating pain seems like the sort of thing where if I was already, I don't know, a medieval Catholic nun, I'd absolutely be like "Wow, God is present and is testing me with suffering for my spiritual benefit." That still seems very different from a mushroom experience. But it would for sure be a religious experience.
posted by Birds, snakes, and aeroplanes at 1:59 PM on March 16 [3 favorites]
The thing is, it’s just not true that psychedelics reliably produce spiritual experiences. Often they do. Often they don’t, even in high doses
My line has been for a long time that psychedelics tend to jam on the button that says “this is profound.” I think that overlaps with what people mean when they say “spiritual experience” but I don’t know whether it’s identical.
posted by atoxyl at 2:06 PM on March 16 [1 favorite]
My line has been for a long time that psychedelics tend to jam on the button that says “this is profound.” I think that overlaps with what people mean when they say “spiritual experience” but I don’t know whether it’s identical.
posted by atoxyl at 2:06 PM on March 16 [1 favorite]
From TFA:
When I was a teenager we used to go and pick psilocybin mushrooms in the woods (Canadian west coast), or on the edges of grassy areas like soccer fields. Good times were had, with the added bonus of being found and gathered from the neighbourhood. I had some ecstatic experiences of nature, including the sense of being overwhelmed by waves of oxygen rolling off the forest and dissolving into those waves, and it's a lovely memory but, you know, context is all.
posted by jokeefe at 2:12 PM on March 16 [3 favorites]
One of the turning points in psychedelic science came in 01962, when a PhD student named Walter Pankhe gave 10 theological students psilocybin — the active ingredient in magic mushrooms — and made them listen to the Good Friday sermon at Boston University’s Marsh Chapel. Almost all underwent transcendent religious experiences which, 25 years later, they still counted among the most meaningful spiritual experiences of their lives. One had to be restrained from running outside to announce the imminent return of the Messiah.In other words, they gave the drug to people who were already committed believers, who had, in fact, dedicated their intellectual lives to those beliefs, and placed them in a situation where their convictions were magnified by a sermon on Good Friday, one of the most significant dates of the Christian calendar-- and then wondered when they had an ecstatic experience? And thought it proved something?
When I was a teenager we used to go and pick psilocybin mushrooms in the woods (Canadian west coast), or on the edges of grassy areas like soccer fields. Good times were had, with the added bonus of being found and gathered from the neighbourhood. I had some ecstatic experiences of nature, including the sense of being overwhelmed by waves of oxygen rolling off the forest and dissolving into those waves, and it's a lovely memory but, you know, context is all.
posted by jokeefe at 2:12 PM on March 16 [3 favorites]
I am almost certainly in the bottom decile for interest in connecting to things outside the physical realm but attracted to transcendent experience, hence the drug-taking. Is that spiritual?
posted by atoxyl at 2:13 PM on March 16 [1 favorite]
posted by atoxyl at 2:13 PM on March 16 [1 favorite]
alright i stopped reading when they misspelled "albert hofmann" (twice).
got no acid cred, man. period.
posted by graywyvern at 2:18 PM on March 16 [1 favorite]
got no acid cred, man. period.
posted by graywyvern at 2:18 PM on March 16 [1 favorite]
I'm not familiar with what kind of psychedelic spiritual experience you could get from a migraine. I 've never heard of that happening with migraines.
The idea that Hildegard von Bingen had migraines is pretty mainstream. I first ran across it in Oliver Sacks's Migraine. Obviously it's hard to know now.
Visions or Auras? A case study from the High Middle Ages
posted by inexorably_forward at 2:25 PM on March 16 [1 favorite]
The idea that Hildegard von Bingen had migraines is pretty mainstream. I first ran across it in Oliver Sacks's Migraine. Obviously it's hard to know now.
Visions or Auras? A case study from the High Middle Ages
posted by inexorably_forward at 2:25 PM on March 16 [1 favorite]
When you experience vastly more of a beautiful and complex environment such as a late April meadow full of wildflowers and insects than you've ever been able to before because you're on a psychedelic, that experience is not remotely all in your head.
No one's brain is capable of imagining such an information rich environment even for a single instant. And if by some miracle you possessed a god-like brain which could, even such a brain could not then go on to progress that moment in time the way time flows naturally in the actual meadow.
The psychedelic makes it possible for you to to have a much greater bandwidth of experience of that meadow than you would without it, but you are not remotely capable of creating that brain state without the living presence of the meadow itself!
Sometimes people's arrogance about what their brains can do is for me the most astounding feature of those amazing brains.
posted by jamjam at 3:23 PM on March 16 [2 favorites]
No one's brain is capable of imagining such an information rich environment even for a single instant. And if by some miracle you possessed a god-like brain which could, even such a brain could not then go on to progress that moment in time the way time flows naturally in the actual meadow.
The psychedelic makes it possible for you to to have a much greater bandwidth of experience of that meadow than you would without it, but you are not remotely capable of creating that brain state without the living presence of the meadow itself!
Sometimes people's arrogance about what their brains can do is for me the most astounding feature of those amazing brains.
posted by jamjam at 3:23 PM on March 16 [2 favorites]
Sometimes people's arrogance about what their brains can do is for me the most astounding feature of those amazing brains.
I hear ya. I'd always been on the side of the debate that says Psychedelics are the only way, and I still think that Psychedelics are the best way to show a regular person that there's more to reality that what their 5 senses normally show them. The right psychedelic dose will shatter anyone's limited material viewpoint, and the world needs that today.
But in the past 10 years since I've gotten into mediation and started to learn about what the body can do with training in internal alchemy etc. I've also realized that there are mind states, such as what's called Samadhi or Satori, where psychedelics won't take you, at least not long enough to do anything with it.
posted by Liquidwolf at 3:47 PM on March 16 [1 favorite]
I hear ya. I'd always been on the side of the debate that says Psychedelics are the only way, and I still think that Psychedelics are the best way to show a regular person that there's more to reality that what their 5 senses normally show them. The right psychedelic dose will shatter anyone's limited material viewpoint, and the world needs that today.
But in the past 10 years since I've gotten into mediation and started to learn about what the body can do with training in internal alchemy etc. I've also realized that there are mind states, such as what's called Samadhi or Satori, where psychedelics won't take you, at least not long enough to do anything with it.
posted by Liquidwolf at 3:47 PM on March 16 [1 favorite]
We have had Amanita Muscaria mushrooms coming up all over in one of our courtyards for a couple of years now. Which develop long white stripes down their nascent caps as they emerge from the squirrels squirreling bites as they pop up.
Later on, I noticed our local crows have developed a taste for them, too. I remember reading Andrew Weil's The Marriage of the Sun and Moon, wherein he discussed several mostly mind altering experiences now commonly understood -- such as watching solar eclipses, eating hot capsicum flavored foods and mangos freshly picked from mango trees. I have friends who have experienced all of these things back in the day who can attest to all of these things as fact.
One essay therein by Weil describes going on a psilocybe mushroom hunting expedition one morning where he could not spot their tiny brown caps even if they were by his shoes. But they got enough all the same, brewed some tea and had a jolly good time. Rhe next morning Weil and friends went our to pick more. And he could spot them from 30 yards away.
Our brains are funny things. Ever since I heard an Anna's hummingbird singing one winter and went to investigate -- because what bird sings then? -- I can spot them in flight across the street even now when I have cataracts and no spectacles because I broke my glasses a few months back. Because hear a bird, see the bird is wired into my brain.
Which is how I knew a few weeks back that there were two bald eagles squabbling overhead by their cries even before looking up.
And by the way, where I live is in a complex of 9 four-plex units that looks like army base housing because that's what it was built for back in WWII. Only the war was over before they finished. Among the shrubbery thereupon are lavender, rosemary and lemon balm mint bushes. All of which mosquitoes hate. Someone back then knew some things.
We have a driveway crossing the end of the block from 10th Ave to Broadway, which is a side street north of Roy. The neighborhood has been built way up since I moved here in 2004. Some jerks dropped a pile of 2x4s on the parking strip after building a condo next door. I sicced the new owner of the complex on them and the pile disappeared. The next doir construction crew then scraped off the strip and sowed it with grass seed under a compost of manure. From which popped up fairy rings of psilocybe mushrooms. Which sprouting grass got scraped off by knowledgeable passersby. The construction crew had to do a do over twice before they figured out where to get non-potentially hallucinogenic cow poop. Between that and my growing heirloom sweet peas, nightscented stock, heavenly blue morning glories, the new owner cut my rent in half for the curb appeal provided. I live in a cubbyhole basement studio and now pay the lowest rent on the Hill -- which is yet another example of hallucinogenic co-evolution or so I should like to think.
posted by y2karl at 4:21 PM on March 16 [5 favorites]
Later on, I noticed our local crows have developed a taste for them, too. I remember reading Andrew Weil's The Marriage of the Sun and Moon, wherein he discussed several mostly mind altering experiences now commonly understood -- such as watching solar eclipses, eating hot capsicum flavored foods and mangos freshly picked from mango trees. I have friends who have experienced all of these things back in the day who can attest to all of these things as fact.
One essay therein by Weil describes going on a psilocybe mushroom hunting expedition one morning where he could not spot their tiny brown caps even if they were by his shoes. But they got enough all the same, brewed some tea and had a jolly good time. Rhe next morning Weil and friends went our to pick more. And he could spot them from 30 yards away.
Our brains are funny things. Ever since I heard an Anna's hummingbird singing one winter and went to investigate -- because what bird sings then? -- I can spot them in flight across the street even now when I have cataracts and no spectacles because I broke my glasses a few months back. Because hear a bird, see the bird is wired into my brain.
Which is how I knew a few weeks back that there were two bald eagles squabbling overhead by their cries even before looking up.
And by the way, where I live is in a complex of 9 four-plex units that looks like army base housing because that's what it was built for back in WWII. Only the war was over before they finished. Among the shrubbery thereupon are lavender, rosemary and lemon balm mint bushes. All of which mosquitoes hate. Someone back then knew some things.
We have a driveway crossing the end of the block from 10th Ave to Broadway, which is a side street north of Roy. The neighborhood has been built way up since I moved here in 2004. Some jerks dropped a pile of 2x4s on the parking strip after building a condo next door. I sicced the new owner of the complex on them and the pile disappeared. The next doir construction crew then scraped off the strip and sowed it with grass seed under a compost of manure. From which popped up fairy rings of psilocybe mushrooms. Which sprouting grass got scraped off by knowledgeable passersby. The construction crew had to do a do over twice before they figured out where to get non-potentially hallucinogenic cow poop. Between that and my growing heirloom sweet peas, nightscented stock, heavenly blue morning glories, the new owner cut my rent in half for the curb appeal provided. I live in a cubbyhole basement studio and now pay the lowest rent on the Hill -- which is yet another example of hallucinogenic co-evolution or so I should like to think.
posted by y2karl at 4:21 PM on March 16 [5 favorites]
Do you think it's not plausible to take a psychedelic and hallucinate just as impressive an experience of the meadow (or a comparable environment of your liking) while lying in your room instead?
Genuine question, I don't know.
The claim that mushrooms can induce mystical experience and therefore religion must be downstream from mushroom use [...]
Well, I don't think it's a must be that the author is going for here – more of a could have been. Although there wasn't heaps of concrete evidence presented (with the reasonable excuse that archaeologists wouldn't expect to find psychedelic substances preserved from so long ago, and even that caveated with reference to emerging developments in chemical technology), I was still quite impressed with the notes on Judaism, Hinduism and Zoroastrianism and especially the Matalem-Amazar, which I can't believe I'd never been shown before. I don't think it's argued that without psychedelics there could be no religion, and I don't think that could ever be proven (because I think it's false), but certainly the idea that they could have been a very important part of some heady mix that gave rise to some of our ancient religions is supported by the information presented in the article, and was new to me.
Separately, this FPP pairs interestingly with the one for Common Side Effects, further down. You (any reader) might enjoy watching the first episode of that if you've been interested in any of this discussion.
posted by Panthalassa at 4:27 PM on March 16
Genuine question, I don't know.
The claim that mushrooms can induce mystical experience and therefore religion must be downstream from mushroom use [...]
Well, I don't think it's a must be that the author is going for here – more of a could have been. Although there wasn't heaps of concrete evidence presented (with the reasonable excuse that archaeologists wouldn't expect to find psychedelic substances preserved from so long ago, and even that caveated with reference to emerging developments in chemical technology), I was still quite impressed with the notes on Judaism, Hinduism and Zoroastrianism and especially the Matalem-Amazar, which I can't believe I'd never been shown before. I don't think it's argued that without psychedelics there could be no religion, and I don't think that could ever be proven (because I think it's false), but certainly the idea that they could have been a very important part of some heady mix that gave rise to some of our ancient religions is supported by the information presented in the article, and was new to me.
Separately, this FPP pairs interestingly with the one for Common Side Effects, further down. You (any reader) might enjoy watching the first episode of that if you've been interested in any of this discussion.
posted by Panthalassa at 4:27 PM on March 16
Another Amanita Muscaria story I remember reading is about some anthropologists observing Siberian Amanita Muscaria drug orgies in the former Soviet Union. As it turns out, the active principles thereof pass through the kidneys and get excreted in urine. Rich peasants brewed and drank the tea, poor peasants ate the yellow snow. Wherein their lives became perilous as any loose reindeer around could easily smell the A. Muscaria and would make a beeline for said frozen golden snocones. People could and did get trampled to death in the process. Providing yet another reason for not eating the yellow snow.
Without taking the necessary sensible precautions.
posted by y2karl at 4:43 PM on March 16 [1 favorite]
Without taking the necessary sensible precautions.
posted by y2karl at 4:43 PM on March 16 [1 favorite]
So was Lennon, if memory serves
I thought Lennon was the walrus?
posted by Reverend John at 4:46 PM on March 16 [2 favorites]
I thought Lennon was the walrus?
posted by Reverend John at 4:46 PM on March 16 [2 favorites]
I've always been afraid to take psychedelics. Recently I've thought about it but only with a trusted guide. Unfortunately the person I would have trusted as my guide passed away last year.
posted by mike3k at 5:01 PM on March 16
posted by mike3k at 5:01 PM on March 16
I thought Lennon was the walrus?
John was the Egg Man.
Vladimir Ilyich just ended-up with egg on his face.
posted by splifingate at 5:23 PM on March 16
John was the Egg Man.
Vladimir Ilyich just ended-up with egg on his face.
posted by splifingate at 5:23 PM on March 16
So was Lennon, if memory serves
I thought Lennon was the walrus?
posted by Reverend John
He was!
I thought Lennon was the walrus?
posted by Reverend John
He was!
And besides, the walrus wasn't actually Paul anyway, as John clarified in a 1980 interview: “It was actually me in the walrus suit. ...posted by jamjam at 5:49 PM on March 16
First, this stuff just isn't universal. People have a really wide variety of experiences, which can be really different even for the same person from one instance to the next...
This. Human consciousness and personality encompass a wide spectrum, with a minority of Saints, Shamans, and holy fools who feel the divine in every raindrop at one end, and a minority of skeptical materialists strongly resistant to any leap of faith at the other end. In between, most humans just bumble along, and might sense something like higher spiritual values woven within nature if they get a bit of nudging with certain drugs.
posted by ovvl at 7:32 PM on March 16
This. Human consciousness and personality encompass a wide spectrum, with a minority of Saints, Shamans, and holy fools who feel the divine in every raindrop at one end, and a minority of skeptical materialists strongly resistant to any leap of faith at the other end. In between, most humans just bumble along, and might sense something like higher spiritual values woven within nature if they get a bit of nudging with certain drugs.
posted by ovvl at 7:32 PM on March 16
Funny, I know several people who got cured of Catholicism after eating mushrooms.
I never was much into drugs, but my own departure from Christianity happened during a Meisner method acting class in college. I forget what play the scene we were doing was from, but it took place in a forest valley at night. I lay on my back in the poorly-maintained acting studio, and instead of ugly fluorescent tubes above me, I saw a beautiful moon. Acting can be a high, sometimes.
posted by HeroZero at 8:26 PM on March 16
I never was much into drugs, but my own departure from Christianity happened during a Meisner method acting class in college. I forget what play the scene we were doing was from, but it took place in a forest valley at night. I lay on my back in the poorly-maintained acting studio, and instead of ugly fluorescent tubes above me, I saw a beautiful moon. Acting can be a high, sometimes.
posted by HeroZero at 8:26 PM on March 16
Do you think it's not plausible to take a psychedelic and hallucinate just as impressive an experience of the meadow (or a comparable environment of your liking) while lying in your room instead?
Genuine question, I don't know.
For me - and I cannot possibly speak for anybody else - this is beyond implausible with any of cannabis, LSD, psilocybin, muscimol, DMT or 2C-B, which are the hallucinogens I have personal experience with.
I have yet to play recreationally with dissociatives like ketamine, and have no real interest in deliriants like datura, so I can offer no opinion on how convincing any hallucinations associated with those might be to me.
Quite plausibly because my baseline experience has always included near-complete aphantasia, I have the assorted open-eye and closed-eye visuals that come with these chemicals filed under "internal special effects". They're fun to play with but I've never got even close to mistaking the images they construct for genuine representations of anything actually present, and although ISEs are fun they're frankly not that interesting to me. If that were all there was to hallucinogens, I doubt I would have persisted in experimenting with them.
The main effect I'm actually after when I use a hallucinogen is the shattering of my customary distinctions and categories. So I have a certain degree of sympathy with the view that everything we experience is in our heads, but only when I parse it as "every thing we experience is in our heads".
I'm a big fan of the experiences that become available when the category "in my head" simply fails to arise on its own - where by default there are no things, there is only this.
The beauty and fascination of hallucinogens, for me, is in their ability to bring on such experiences at far more than their customarily fleeting length, while freeing up attentional resources that would need to be turned inward to do so by other means.
If I need categories while tripping strongly - for example, if I'm off by myself in the bush so that maintaining an awareness of my water bottle as The Precious Object is a safety issue - then I actually need to put deliberate effort into making distinctions and constructing categories appropriately. Over the years I've derived a lot of satisfaction from having learned to do that, because it's proved to be a useful skill with all kinds of applications when not tripping as well.
posted by flabdablet at 10:26 PM on March 16 [1 favorite]
Genuine question, I don't know.
For me - and I cannot possibly speak for anybody else - this is beyond implausible with any of cannabis, LSD, psilocybin, muscimol, DMT or 2C-B, which are the hallucinogens I have personal experience with.
I have yet to play recreationally with dissociatives like ketamine, and have no real interest in deliriants like datura, so I can offer no opinion on how convincing any hallucinations associated with those might be to me.
Quite plausibly because my baseline experience has always included near-complete aphantasia, I have the assorted open-eye and closed-eye visuals that come with these chemicals filed under "internal special effects". They're fun to play with but I've never got even close to mistaking the images they construct for genuine representations of anything actually present, and although ISEs are fun they're frankly not that interesting to me. If that were all there was to hallucinogens, I doubt I would have persisted in experimenting with them.
The main effect I'm actually after when I use a hallucinogen is the shattering of my customary distinctions and categories. So I have a certain degree of sympathy with the view that everything we experience is in our heads, but only when I parse it as "every thing we experience is in our heads".
I'm a big fan of the experiences that become available when the category "in my head" simply fails to arise on its own - where by default there are no things, there is only this.
The beauty and fascination of hallucinogens, for me, is in their ability to bring on such experiences at far more than their customarily fleeting length, while freeing up attentional resources that would need to be turned inward to do so by other means.
If I need categories while tripping strongly - for example, if I'm off by myself in the bush so that maintaining an awareness of my water bottle as The Precious Object is a safety issue - then I actually need to put deliberate effort into making distinctions and constructing categories appropriately. Over the years I've derived a lot of satisfaction from having learned to do that, because it's proved to be a useful skill with all kinds of applications when not tripping as well.
posted by flabdablet at 10:26 PM on March 16 [1 favorite]
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