Of Dandelions and Palestine
March 17, 2025 7:31 AM Subscribe
Why Chinese netizens call Palestinian fighters "dandelions". "Palestine today is China's yesterday". Why young Chinese are rediscovering Mao's support for Palestine.
From global anti-imperialism to the dandelion fighters: China's solidarity with Palestine from 1950-2024 - From 1950 to 1976, China's stance on the Palestinian-Israeli conflict underwent a dramatic shift, evolving from potential diplomatic ties with Israel to staunch support for Palestinian liberation. Rooted in Maoist revolutionary ideals, China provided diplomatic, financial, and military support while fostering domestic solidarity through propaganda and cultural exchange, an enduring legacy shaping China's stance today.
*Notes* Yes, China does have government censorship on certain topics. They apparently do not on Israel/Palestine. The most recent I/P thread is here for current events. For a focus on American-style censorship, please check out this one on Columbia University revoking degrees or on the Alien Enemies Act.
From global anti-imperialism to the dandelion fighters: China's solidarity with Palestine from 1950-2024 - From 1950 to 1976, China's stance on the Palestinian-Israeli conflict underwent a dramatic shift, evolving from potential diplomatic ties with Israel to staunch support for Palestinian liberation. Rooted in Maoist revolutionary ideals, China provided diplomatic, financial, and military support while fostering domestic solidarity through propaganda and cultural exchange, an enduring legacy shaping China's stance today.
*Notes* Yes, China does have government censorship on certain topics. They apparently do not on Israel/Palestine. The most recent I/P thread is here for current events. For a focus on American-style censorship, please check out this one on Columbia University revoking degrees or on the Alien Enemies Act.
The first four links are all from the Transnational Institute, an organization whose website, despite it's long lived and well intentioned pedigree, has over the course of time become permeated with thoughtfully written pro-BRICS, anti-EU propaganda like leaving Ukraine to fend for themselves, how opposing NATO helps fight climate change and how the EU threatens global peace
posted by CynicalKnight at 9:03 AM on March 17 [17 favorites]
posted by CynicalKnight at 9:03 AM on March 17 [17 favorites]
The Algorithm has been sending me the the first few YT links too just in the last two weeks. I kind of had to look up some of the people and institutions to see if I was getting played (is someone paying to promote these to a certain demographic or do they just align with what they think I'll like? does it matter either way?)
Useful background CynicalKnight!
posted by phigmov at 10:29 AM on March 17 [4 favorites]
Useful background CynicalKnight!
posted by phigmov at 10:29 AM on March 17 [4 favorites]
The PRC has always delighted in pointing out hypocrisy in Western (and particularly American) positions: You support human rights? Well then why are you cheering on a genocide and suppressing free speech about it, huh? In this case, they're right, but it shouldn't be mistaken for genuine support of human rights. I'll bet any Weibo thread that connects the dots between Palestinian oppression and Uyghur oppression still gets deleted immediately.
posted by qxntpqbbbqxl at 10:33 AM on March 17 [17 favorites]
posted by qxntpqbbbqxl at 10:33 AM on March 17 [17 favorites]
thoughtfully written pro-BRICS, anti-EU propaganda
And? The vast majority of mainstream Western sources are permeated with pro-Israel propaganda and varying degrees of Islamophobia and Sinophobia, most of which can't even be described as "thoughtfully written" so much as "treated as axiomatic".
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 10:38 AM on March 17 [14 favorites]
And? The vast majority of mainstream Western sources are permeated with pro-Israel propaganda and varying degrees of Islamophobia and Sinophobia, most of which can't even be described as "thoughtfully written" so much as "treated as axiomatic".
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 10:38 AM on March 17 [14 favorites]
Is this usage of dandelion based on Ken Liu's book series (Dandelion Dynasty) from 2015 or was Liu inspired by some other historical source that these folks are also referencing?
posted by mrgoldenbrown at 11:27 AM on March 17
posted by mrgoldenbrown at 11:27 AM on March 17
And? The vast majority of mainstream Western sources are permeated with pro-Israel propaganda and varying degrees of Islamophobia and Sinophobia
I'd venture that hearing propaganda from all sides is not a particularly productive way to inform oneself
posted by BungaDunga at 11:35 AM on March 17 [10 favorites]
I'd venture that hearing propaganda from all sides is not a particularly productive way to inform oneself
posted by BungaDunga at 11:35 AM on March 17 [10 favorites]
The US should not arm Ukraine and instead pursue diplomatic solutions is not the same as "The US should abandon Ukraine entirely." The US's involvement in Ukraine has not been positive.
The Transnational Institute has criticised China for their treatment of Uyghurs as recently as 2022.
We live in jingoistic times. So did Eqbal Ahmad, who founded the Transnational Institute, and it never stopped him from speaking the truth unflinchingly.
Thank you CynicalKnight for linking to more TNI articles. I wouldn't have paid attention to the source and gone down the rabbithole if it weren't for your links, even if I disagree with your criticisms.
posted by ftrtts at 11:48 AM on March 17 [10 favorites]
The Transnational Institute has criticised China for their treatment of Uyghurs as recently as 2022.
We live in jingoistic times. So did Eqbal Ahmad, who founded the Transnational Institute, and it never stopped him from speaking the truth unflinchingly.
Thank you CynicalKnight for linking to more TNI articles. I wouldn't have paid attention to the source and gone down the rabbithole if it weren't for your links, even if I disagree with your criticisms.
posted by ftrtts at 11:48 AM on March 17 [10 favorites]
hearing propaganda from all sides is not a particularly productive way to inform oneself
Probably not, but unfortunately that's the world we live in; not only media literacy but also an awareness of where a particular source's biases are and some degree of critical thinking are necessary to being informed rather than propagandised.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 11:59 AM on March 17 [7 favorites]
Probably not, but unfortunately that's the world we live in; not only media literacy but also an awareness of where a particular source's biases are and some degree of critical thinking are necessary to being informed rather than propagandised.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 11:59 AM on March 17 [7 favorites]
I was wondering if any of you had any thoughts about the actual content? I thought this series was interesting food for thought because of how politicized and propagandized Palestinian content is in the US, and it certainly highlights a large cultural gap between China and the US even if this series is not about the US directly. Recall that the Tiktok ban was driven, in large part, by a bipartisan desire on the part of American legislators to censor pro-Palestinian content. Mahmoud Khalil was arrested, not on the basis of any crime, but because of "un-American activity" like participating in student protests .
posted by toastyk at 12:12 PM on March 17 [6 favorites]
posted by toastyk at 12:12 PM on March 17 [6 favorites]
I'd venture that hearing propaganda from all sides is not a particularly productive way to inform oneself
"You have spoken to the wrong expert. You've got to ask the right expert. You've got to know what an expert's going to advise before he advises."
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 12:29 PM on March 17 [2 favorites]
"You have spoken to the wrong expert. You've got to ask the right expert. You've got to know what an expert's going to advise before he advises."
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 12:29 PM on March 17 [2 favorites]
Lost me at Palestinian "fighters".
The vast majority of mainstream Western sources are permeated with pro-Israel propaganda
I would not count Fox and media to the right of it as mainstream - where else?
posted by uncle harold at 12:59 PM on March 17 [2 favorites]
The vast majority of mainstream Western sources are permeated with pro-Israel propaganda
I would not count Fox and media to the right of it as mainstream - where else?
posted by uncle harold at 12:59 PM on March 17 [2 favorites]
NYT? WaPo?
posted by kokaku at 1:00 PM on March 17 [3 favorites]
posted by kokaku at 1:00 PM on March 17 [3 favorites]
I was wondering if any of you had any thoughts about the actual content?
Given the PRC is a capitalist authoritarian empire that helped put Trump back into power, desires the annexation of Taiwan and is tolerant if not supportive of murderous slave labour camps in it's sphere of influence, I am entirely skeptical of their claim to be supportive of Palestine and consider this content to be a propaganda lure to further cement their controlling grip on western progressive discourse with the ultimate goal of disarming and sidelining it, just as they have in their own country.
posted by CynicalKnight at 1:12 PM on March 17 [6 favorites]
Given the PRC is a capitalist authoritarian empire that helped put Trump back into power, desires the annexation of Taiwan and is tolerant if not supportive of murderous slave labour camps in it's sphere of influence, I am entirely skeptical of their claim to be supportive of Palestine and consider this content to be a propaganda lure to further cement their controlling grip on western progressive discourse with the ultimate goal of disarming and sidelining it, just as they have in their own country.
posted by CynicalKnight at 1:12 PM on March 17 [6 favorites]
Since there's often a conflation of the Chinese state and the Chinese people, it's worth noting that while Chinese people may broadly feel one way about the plight of Palestinians, there are basically no indicators that the Chinese state or businesses have made any material attempts to divest economically from Israel as a result of the ongoing genocide.
China is Israel's second-largest trading partner. As recently as last month the Foreign Minister Wang Yi said, "China always views the development of China-Israel relations from a long-term perspective and is willing to work with Israel to advance the development of the China-Israel innovative comprehensive partnership.” Chinese state-owned companies operate the port of Haifa. The CCTV and facial recognition technologies created and sold by the Chinese state-backed company Hikvision bolster Israel's system of surveillance apartheid. By the way, this is the same Hikvision technology which is not only used for racial profiling Uyghurs in Xinjiang, but is also used by the NYPD to facilitate racist surveillance policies against Black New Yorkers. All imperialist states cover for each other and learn from each other about the best ways to oppress their people.
(To be clear, because seemingly any criticism of the Chinese state or businesses is interpreted as boosting the US: China is not primarily or even secondarily responsible for the genocide of Palestinians; the US is. The Chinese state is not exceptional in terms of how it relates to Israel. I just don't think that the Chinese state should get credit for bare minimum statements while continuing to materially benefit from trade with Israel. All credit should go to Chinese activists working for global solidarity.)
posted by cultanthropologist at 1:15 PM on March 17 [13 favorites]
China is Israel's second-largest trading partner. As recently as last month the Foreign Minister Wang Yi said, "China always views the development of China-Israel relations from a long-term perspective and is willing to work with Israel to advance the development of the China-Israel innovative comprehensive partnership.” Chinese state-owned companies operate the port of Haifa. The CCTV and facial recognition technologies created and sold by the Chinese state-backed company Hikvision bolster Israel's system of surveillance apartheid. By the way, this is the same Hikvision technology which is not only used for racial profiling Uyghurs in Xinjiang, but is also used by the NYPD to facilitate racist surveillance policies against Black New Yorkers. All imperialist states cover for each other and learn from each other about the best ways to oppress their people.
(To be clear, because seemingly any criticism of the Chinese state or businesses is interpreted as boosting the US: China is not primarily or even secondarily responsible for the genocide of Palestinians; the US is. The Chinese state is not exceptional in terms of how it relates to Israel. I just don't think that the Chinese state should get credit for bare minimum statements while continuing to materially benefit from trade with Israel. All credit should go to Chinese activists working for global solidarity.)
posted by cultanthropologist at 1:15 PM on March 17 [13 favorites]
The US should not arm Ukraine and instead pursue diplomatic solutions
In Russian culture, there is a heavy stigma on adoption. I mean real heavy. Men who adopt children are considered cuckolds. Women who do it are compared to cat hoarders. Raising someone else's child as your own is a fool's task. You take in a kid as a worker, not as a surrogate child.
That's why Russia always had industrial scaled orphanages, even before communism.
This is the environment into which Russia has abducted over 20,000 Ukrainian children. Into swelling orphanages, and into foster homes and adoptive homes whose parents will be ridiculed if they do NOT abuse the living shit out of their charges. Some of them have already snuck onto social media to report how they're doing, and yes, it's grim. One teenage suicide that we know of, so far.
So if you write anything about the war in Ukraine, think hard. Because in 5 or 6 years you may be desperate to deny that you said what you said. Think hard. Then hit delete.
posted by ocschwar at 1:18 PM on March 17 [12 favorites]
In Russian culture, there is a heavy stigma on adoption. I mean real heavy. Men who adopt children are considered cuckolds. Women who do it are compared to cat hoarders. Raising someone else's child as your own is a fool's task. You take in a kid as a worker, not as a surrogate child.
That's why Russia always had industrial scaled orphanages, even before communism.
This is the environment into which Russia has abducted over 20,000 Ukrainian children. Into swelling orphanages, and into foster homes and adoptive homes whose parents will be ridiculed if they do NOT abuse the living shit out of their charges. Some of them have already snuck onto social media to report how they're doing, and yes, it's grim. One teenage suicide that we know of, so far.
So if you write anything about the war in Ukraine, think hard. Because in 5 or 6 years you may be desperate to deny that you said what you said. Think hard. Then hit delete.
posted by ocschwar at 1:18 PM on March 17 [12 favorites]
CynicalKnight thanks, those where the words I didn't find.
posted by uncle harold at 1:18 PM on March 17 [2 favorites]
posted by uncle harold at 1:18 PM on March 17 [2 favorites]
I was wondering if any of you had any thoughts about the actual content?
The dandelion reminded me of Jumana Manna's Foragers, about Palestinians' practice of foraging 'akkoub and za'atar and the Israelis making it illegal. There's a scene in the film of an Israeli official detaining and questioning a Palestinian man who defends himself by saying "I am nature."
I also saw the videos themselves. This one includes clips of Ibrahim Traoré, Sankara, Che, Lenin, Stalin, Qiao Guanhua. Another video cuts to different photos of fighters holding parachutes. Obviously a very different media environment. But coming from a media environment that doesn't actually include Palestinians and where Palestine supporters are required to condemn Hamas at the start of every interview, it's refreshing to see social media from a country that's free to express their views on this topic.
posted by ftrtts at 1:19 PM on March 17 [4 favorites]
The dandelion reminded me of Jumana Manna's Foragers, about Palestinians' practice of foraging 'akkoub and za'atar and the Israelis making it illegal. There's a scene in the film of an Israeli official detaining and questioning a Palestinian man who defends himself by saying "I am nature."
I also saw the videos themselves. This one includes clips of Ibrahim Traoré, Sankara, Che, Lenin, Stalin, Qiao Guanhua. Another video cuts to different photos of fighters holding parachutes. Obviously a very different media environment. But coming from a media environment that doesn't actually include Palestinians and where Palestine supporters are required to condemn Hamas at the start of every interview, it's refreshing to see social media from a country that's free to express their views on this topic.
posted by ftrtts at 1:19 PM on March 17 [4 favorites]
So if you write anything about the war in Ukraine, think hard. Because in 5 or 6 years you may be desperate to deny that you said what you said. Think hard. Then hit delete.
What in the red scare does any of that have to do with anything I said?
posted by ftrtts at 1:26 PM on March 17 [4 favorites]
What in the red scare does any of that have to do with anything I said?
posted by ftrtts at 1:26 PM on March 17 [4 favorites]
it's refreshing to see social media from a country that's free to express their views on this topic.
Do you realize Metafilter is a form of social media and you are expressing your view freely in your comment?
posted by uncle harold at 1:27 PM on March 17
Do you realize Metafilter is a form of social media and you are expressing your view freely in your comment?
posted by uncle harold at 1:27 PM on March 17
What in the red scare does any of that have to do with anything I said?
You're using sources who are willing to innocent people write off because they were born to the wrong ethnicity in the wrong place at the wrong time.
posted by ocschwar at 1:31 PM on March 17 [1 favorite]
You're using sources who are willing to innocent people write off because they were born to the wrong ethnicity in the wrong place at the wrong time.
posted by ocschwar at 1:31 PM on March 17 [1 favorite]
¯\_(ツ)_/¯ I literally do not know what you are talking about. If you'd like, you're free to mefimail me but Ukraine is very off topic for this thread and I am not going to engage further here. I don't think it should have been mentioned in the first place, but I thought it important to defend TNI because they do great work.
posted by ftrtts at 1:43 PM on March 17 [2 favorites]
posted by ftrtts at 1:43 PM on March 17 [2 favorites]
Lost me at Palestinian "fighters".
Do you have a better word for the only people who are resisting a 75-year-long brutal occupation that includes torture, starvation, and daily war crimes (yes, even before October 7 there were daily war crimes)?
posted by adrienneleigh at 1:47 PM on March 17 [11 favorites]
Do you have a better word for the only people who are resisting a 75-year-long brutal occupation that includes torture, starvation, and daily war crimes (yes, even before October 7 there were daily war crimes)?
posted by adrienneleigh at 1:47 PM on March 17 [11 favorites]
I would not count Fox and media to the right of it as mainstream - where else?
NYT, WaPo, ABC/CBS/NBC, CNN, BBC, the Atlantic, Time, Newsweek, etc. See here, for instance. See also the grotesque constructions headline writers will come up with to avoid using the active voice w/r/t Israel; if you look at Western media, Palestinians keep dying for some mysterious and unattributable reason.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 1:48 PM on March 17 [5 favorites]
NYT, WaPo, ABC/CBS/NBC, CNN, BBC, the Atlantic, Time, Newsweek, etc. See here, for instance. See also the grotesque constructions headline writers will come up with to avoid using the active voice w/r/t Israel; if you look at Western media, Palestinians keep dying for some mysterious and unattributable reason.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 1:48 PM on March 17 [5 favorites]
Do you have a better word for the only people who are resisting
I would certainly start with not conflating the Hamas' atrocities with "resistance".
posted by uncle harold at 1:59 PM on March 17 [3 favorites]
I would certainly start with not conflating the Hamas' atrocities with "resistance".
posted by uncle harold at 1:59 PM on March 17 [3 favorites]
not conflating the Hamas' atrocities
Which atrocities are those, exactly? The "mass rape" that didn't actually happen, or the festival-goers who were killed by IDF Blackhawks to prevent them being taken captive?
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 2:12 PM on March 17 [7 favorites]
Which atrocities are those, exactly? The "mass rape" that didn't actually happen, or the festival-goers who were killed by IDF Blackhawks to prevent them being taken captive?
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 2:12 PM on March 17 [7 favorites]
If you are willing to label as "resistance" the killing of people because they are of the wrong ethnicity in the wrong location
I'm fine with labelling the killing of people who are part of a brutal colonial project that's been engaged in ongoing ethnic cleansing for six and a half decades as "resistance", yes. My 6th great-uncle was the last settler killed by Native Americans in the state of Kentucky, in 1794; they shot and scalped him, and made off with his horses. I don't particularly blame them for doing it. (Nor do I blame Sitting Bull, Crazy Horse, Geronimo, etc, for their actions.)
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 2:25 PM on March 17 [6 favorites]
I'm fine with labelling the killing of people who are part of a brutal colonial project that's been engaged in ongoing ethnic cleansing for six and a half decades as "resistance", yes. My 6th great-uncle was the last settler killed by Native Americans in the state of Kentucky, in 1794; they shot and scalped him, and made off with his horses. I don't particularly blame them for doing it. (Nor do I blame Sitting Bull, Crazy Horse, Geronimo, etc, for their actions.)
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 2:25 PM on March 17 [6 favorites]
electronicintifada.net ? Really?
If you could read you'd see that the linked source itself links to former Israeli defence minister Yoav Gallant admitting as much in an interview on Israeli television. Surely you don't have an issue with that as a source?
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 2:26 PM on March 17 [4 favorites]
If you could read you'd see that the linked source itself links to former Israeli defence minister Yoav Gallant admitting as much in an interview on Israeli television. Surely you don't have an issue with that as a source?
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 2:26 PM on March 17 [4 favorites]
The "mass rape" that didn't actually happen
One or two did occur, and were of course massively exaggerated by the IDF propaganda machine.
the festival-goers who were killed by IDF Blackhawks
Some of them, escaping in a long line of cars, were fired upon by the IDF, either on purpose (Hannibal Directive-esque?) or accidentally thinking it was a Hamas convoy. The rest were killed quite brutally by Hamas.
Let's not relitigate the details of that attack. Follow the Bernie lead and condemn far-right Likud and Hamas while supporting Israelis and Palestinians who want none of this.
As for this post, it's not really about Palestine at all. It's exploiting them as the carrier for a PRC glowup.
posted by CynicalKnight at 2:26 PM on March 17 [2 favorites]
One or two did occur, and were of course massively exaggerated by the IDF propaganda machine.
the festival-goers who were killed by IDF Blackhawks
Some of them, escaping in a long line of cars, were fired upon by the IDF, either on purpose (Hannibal Directive-esque?) or accidentally thinking it was a Hamas convoy. The rest were killed quite brutally by Hamas.
Let's not relitigate the details of that attack. Follow the Bernie lead and condemn far-right Likud and Hamas while supporting Israelis and Palestinians who want none of this.
As for this post, it's not really about Palestine at all. It's exploiting them as the carrier for a PRC glowup.
posted by CynicalKnight at 2:26 PM on March 17 [2 favorites]
I'm fine with labelling the killing of people who are part of a brutal colonial
This is the real world. You're born where you're born. You're given the passport you're given.
I'm going to interpret your words as saying that you are, in fact, fine with killing someone for being of the wrong ethnicity and in the wrong location. Thank you for at least saying as much.
posted by ocschwar at 2:28 PM on March 17 [1 favorite]
This is the real world. You're born where you're born. You're given the passport you're given.
I'm going to interpret your words as saying that you are, in fact, fine with killing someone for being of the wrong ethnicity and in the wrong location. Thank you for at least saying as much.
posted by ocschwar at 2:28 PM on March 17 [1 favorite]
If you could read you'd see that the linked source itself links to former Israeli defence minister Yoav Gallant admitting as much in an interview on Israeli television. Surely you don't have an issue with that as a source?
My reading skills are fine, thanks.
And they tell me first and foremost: there is indeed a quote regarding said directive, but everything after that - if it was carried out, and where and with what result, is total conjecture from the author.
You then take that questionable text and transform it into people at the festival being killed, which even the dramatized and tendentious article does not do.
posted by uncle harold at 2:35 PM on March 17 [1 favorite]
My reading skills are fine, thanks.
And they tell me first and foremost: there is indeed a quote regarding said directive, but everything after that - if it was carried out, and where and with what result, is total conjecture from the author.
You then take that questionable text and transform it into people at the festival being killed, which even the dramatized and tendentious article does not do.
posted by uncle harold at 2:35 PM on March 17 [1 favorite]
My MIL still carries her Palestinian passport that says "Land of Palestine". I'll thank you guys not to engage in denial of Palestinian existence or history.
As for whether it's a PRC-op, TNI features a very large China section that include groups that have been critical of China from a leftist perspective. Make of that what you will.
posted by toastyk at 2:50 PM on March 17 [8 favorites]
As for whether it's a PRC-op, TNI features a very large China section that include groups that have been critical of China from a leftist perspective. Make of that what you will.
posted by toastyk at 2:50 PM on March 17 [8 favorites]
Comparing the complex history of the strecht (sic) of land known as Palestine, which was never a nation state, nor settled by a single majority of ethnicity, or religion for that matter, to the history of the Native people of North America...
Asserting by comparison "the history of the Native (sic) people of North America" as any or all of: 'a nation state', 'settled by a single majority of ethnicity' or 'settled by a single majority of religion' feels derailingly controversial, to say the least.
This is a subject where imprecise assertions are particularly counterproductive to a conversation, could we please be a bit more careful here?
posted by CrystalDave at 2:52 PM on March 17 [2 favorites]
Asserting by comparison "the history of the Native (sic) people of North America" as any or all of: 'a nation state', 'settled by a single majority of ethnicity' or 'settled by a single majority of religion' feels derailingly controversial, to say the least.
This is a subject where imprecise assertions are particularly counterproductive to a conversation, could we please be a bit more careful here?
posted by CrystalDave at 2:52 PM on March 17 [2 favorites]
I'll thank you guys not to engage in denial of Palestinian existence or history.
In case you are referring to my previous comment, I was talking pre-1948, as per the comment I was reacting to.
posted by uncle harold at 2:54 PM on March 17
In case you are referring to my previous comment, I was talking pre-1948, as per the comment I was reacting to.
posted by uncle harold at 2:54 PM on March 17
Mod note: A few comments deleted. Please allow others to express themselves. Let's avoid personal attacks. While it is OK to disagree, allow others to speak about their experience and keep the conversation on topic. Avoid turning the conversation into a discussion with specific people. If you see something that you find offensive or inappropriate, feel free to flag it for our moderators to review it and engage with the content of the post instead.
posted by loup (staff) at 2:58 PM on March 17 [1 favorite]
posted by loup (staff) at 2:58 PM on March 17 [1 favorite]
Re: Oct 7 & the Hannibal Directive and now apparently the Sword of Damocles -There's been subsequent investigations in Israeli media with released evidence this month actually, if you'd like to check the links shared in the genocide threads - though I recall Haaretz had been having one since November 2023. Anyway, as of last month, now that there's a lot of blame game going on internally, fresh disclosures formed the crux of reporting on JPost and Maariv, and you cannot finger those as liberal rags ala Haaretz.
I understand there are still many Mefites who are invested in denialism. I suppose I appreciate them cropping up outside of the safely bounded Palestine genocide threads because it's nice to see all that effort wasted.
My general view with how the subject of Palestine is treated in China is more like cult anthropologist's, with the added note that I have recalled that (like my country) due to public demonstrations of the unsanctioned kind is always reflexively verboten I have seen anecdotes/reports of arrested protestors versus the more active online discourse on xhs, which could be as easily put a lid on, but like the Luigi Mangione fanart, not as much. I am interested to know if there's a smoking gun on the claim that China has any active role (not the current largely passive one deriving from the own-goal behaviour of the West) in electing Trump. To date, nothing particularly conclusive or convincing is found.
Anyway on preview I see we've gone back to the typical western square one of yanking the starting position to arguing if Palestine is even legitimate.
posted by cendawanita at 3:01 PM on March 17 [14 favorites]
I understand there are still many Mefites who are invested in denialism. I suppose I appreciate them cropping up outside of the safely bounded Palestine genocide threads because it's nice to see all that effort wasted.
My general view with how the subject of Palestine is treated in China is more like cult anthropologist's, with the added note that I have recalled that (like my country) due to public demonstrations of the unsanctioned kind is always reflexively verboten I have seen anecdotes/reports of arrested protestors versus the more active online discourse on xhs, which could be as easily put a lid on, but like the Luigi Mangione fanart, not as much. I am interested to know if there's a smoking gun on the claim that China has any active role (not the current largely passive one deriving from the own-goal behaviour of the West) in electing Trump. To date, nothing particularly conclusive or convincing is found.
Anyway on preview I see we've gone back to the typical western square one of yanking the starting position to arguing if Palestine is even legitimate.
posted by cendawanita at 3:01 PM on March 17 [14 favorites]
I am interested to know if there's a smoking gun on the claim that China has any active role ... in electing Trump
Aside from the strategic advantages it was theorized a Trump regime would bring, the message the PRC was sending to it's people, and the benefits it is now proving to bring, we have the close friendship that has emerged amidst the plotting of their leaders.
I have alerted Metafilter in the past to the deluge of fake "leftist" accounts - designed to destroy dem support leading up to the election - also filled with pro-China and pro-Russia content.
Finally, we have apparently sleepy "analysts" finally waking up to what was screamingly obvious eight years ago.
Russia and China both wanted the US out of the way of their own imperial ambitions, and did so by helping the Republicans coup their own country for once, and start colonizing their own neighbors instead.
Now, as Trump's anti-Taiwan rhetoric predictably ramps up, industry is starting to jump ship.
Anyways, this is a derail. My criticism of the original post as soma for neo-tankies still stands.
posted by CynicalKnight at 4:11 PM on March 17 [6 favorites]
Aside from the strategic advantages it was theorized a Trump regime would bring, the message the PRC was sending to it's people, and the benefits it is now proving to bring, we have the close friendship that has emerged amidst the plotting of their leaders.
I have alerted Metafilter in the past to the deluge of fake "leftist" accounts - designed to destroy dem support leading up to the election - also filled with pro-China and pro-Russia content.
Finally, we have apparently sleepy "analysts" finally waking up to what was screamingly obvious eight years ago.
Russia and China both wanted the US out of the way of their own imperial ambitions, and did so by helping the Republicans coup their own country for once, and start colonizing their own neighbors instead.
Now, as Trump's anti-Taiwan rhetoric predictably ramps up, industry is starting to jump ship.
Anyways, this is a derail. My criticism of the original post as soma for neo-tankies still stands.
posted by CynicalKnight at 4:11 PM on March 17 [6 favorites]
On the topic of Palestine before 1948, there's a beautiful book called Before Their Diaspora by Walid Khalidi (YouTube Trailer) that contains almost 500 captioned photos of everyday life in Palestine from 1876-1948.
There's also Against Erasure: A Photographic Memory of Palestine Before the Nakba, released last year. It also looks gorgeous, though I haven't read it myself.
Although some posters have conflated the Chinese state and public sentiment, it's worth briefly noting the articles and videos in the FPP are always careful to distinguish the two. For example, the first video concludes:
posted by ftrtts at 4:30 PM on March 17 [6 favorites]
There's also Against Erasure: A Photographic Memory of Palestine Before the Nakba, released last year. It also looks gorgeous, though I haven't read it myself.
Since there's often a conflation of the Chinese state and the Chinese people, it's worth noting that while Chinese people may broadly feel one way about the plight of Palestinians, there are basically no indicators that the Chinese state or businesses have made any material attempts to divest economically from Israel as a result of the ongoing genocide.Thank you for this.
Although some posters have conflated the Chinese state and public sentiment, it's worth briefly noting the articles and videos in the FPP are always careful to distinguish the two. For example, the first video concludes:
The overall social atmosphere in China is just not the same as the West. Supporting Palestine is still politically correct. During Mao's period, China was the first non-Arab global power that provided full recognition of the PLO, so China was one of the vanguards in that period. In the last forty years, it has made lot of regress backward. [emphasis mine] Still, even considering that, you would find that in Chinese society, supporting Palestine is still part of the political correctness of China, still part of the mainstream society's consensus. And this consensus is getting consolidated in the last year because of the genocide in Gaza.I also enjoyed reading about the Israeli embassy's botched attempts to win over public sentiment:
Ironically, this attempt to instigate the nationalist sentiment of the Chinese against their government was soon shattered by the very nationalist sentiment it tried to manipulate: Being asked whether either she or her daughter were Chinese citizens in an interview, Li Chunhong, in a quite arrogant tone, chastised Chinese netizens, “Yes I am an Israeli citizen. But how can you Chinese [emphasis theirs] refuse to help me just because I am an Israeli citizen? Do you understand? Helping me is a duty of everyone” (Interview Li Chunhong, 2023). The fact that she used “you Chinese” in the sentence evoked tremendous anger from Chinese netizens, and China’s interests in this affair totally faded away.It reminds me of an interview with Rashid Khalidi where he's explaining why Israelis are so good at shifting public opinion in the West:
So for them, for Herzl to speak to a German or Austrian audience or for a Weizman to speak to a British audience, for a Golda Meir to speak to an American audience is to talk to an audience that is her or his audience. They're not talking to foreigners and they're not talking to a foreign culture. It's their culture. Even as they become Israelis, they're still... I mean, Netanyahu he speaks with this perfect flat American accent. He grew up in Cornell and Philly. He lived in Israel before and after but he's an American as far as his acculturation is concerned.It totally makes sense that they would get caught in a racist lie.
posted by ftrtts at 4:30 PM on March 17 [6 favorites]
Re: influence campaigns and China colluding with Russia (just replying only this as I also agree it's a derail but I did ask)
I see what you mean - in my view Xi's China only recently re-warmed up to Russia as the war/invasion continued pre-Trump in a status quo where Ukraine bears the brunt of the effort meant that it's now more possible to have a positive outcome for Russia, as previous to 2024 China has kept Russian overtures at arms length (they don't like betting on a losing hand) but as it is Russia has been upgraded to being normalized again while proxies are supporting the effort (NK). But I think I'm coming from a more cynical Global South slant because overall their effort doesn't reach even a tenth of Russia's when it comes to active derailment of Western politics, and when I say passive, it's the same way I'll describe the US in Southeast Asia as passive (in this specific field of diplomacy) - lots of hard power projection, and sweet talk at the same time, but mostly banking on letting the chips fall where they may as where they're likely to fall remains beneficial to their interests. Beyond the opportunity with Taiwan, it currently feels like China doesn't like the incipient status quo either - no one really wants the role of being the mainstay of a polarized world, outside of Putin's Russia but I'm not talking about delulu folks.
On the subject of "tankies" I have a more critical view in the sense that I don't doubt that there are plants but there's one thing I have been frustrated with the Western left (and we saw this when it comes to Ukraine) is the lack of capacity in understanding power and imperialism, but that's less to do with being tankies or on the left, but just being Westerners. But needless to say, people in the West are only beginning to live a reality I live in, which is that there's no wholly trustworthy resource or institution. (To kinda illustrate the point, I thought this fedi thread about what the shuttering of VOA services will mean to Ethiopian and East African politics is insightful in that we non-westerners has had to live with picking and choosing media). It's a hard boat to row, and being so cynical as to become useless is a constant threat for sure. But I'm not kidding, news consumption now has to follow an ala carte method, which I don't think Westerners have any habit of.
posted by cendawanita at 4:42 PM on March 17 [7 favorites]
I see what you mean - in my view Xi's China only recently re-warmed up to Russia as the war/invasion continued pre-Trump in a status quo where Ukraine bears the brunt of the effort meant that it's now more possible to have a positive outcome for Russia, as previous to 2024 China has kept Russian overtures at arms length (they don't like betting on a losing hand) but as it is Russia has been upgraded to being normalized again while proxies are supporting the effort (NK). But I think I'm coming from a more cynical Global South slant because overall their effort doesn't reach even a tenth of Russia's when it comes to active derailment of Western politics, and when I say passive, it's the same way I'll describe the US in Southeast Asia as passive (in this specific field of diplomacy) - lots of hard power projection, and sweet talk at the same time, but mostly banking on letting the chips fall where they may as where they're likely to fall remains beneficial to their interests. Beyond the opportunity with Taiwan, it currently feels like China doesn't like the incipient status quo either - no one really wants the role of being the mainstay of a polarized world, outside of Putin's Russia but I'm not talking about delulu folks.
On the subject of "tankies" I have a more critical view in the sense that I don't doubt that there are plants but there's one thing I have been frustrated with the Western left (and we saw this when it comes to Ukraine) is the lack of capacity in understanding power and imperialism, but that's less to do with being tankies or on the left, but just being Westerners. But needless to say, people in the West are only beginning to live a reality I live in, which is that there's no wholly trustworthy resource or institution. (To kinda illustrate the point, I thought this fedi thread about what the shuttering of VOA services will mean to Ethiopian and East African politics is insightful in that we non-westerners has had to live with picking and choosing media). It's a hard boat to row, and being so cynical as to become useless is a constant threat for sure. But I'm not kidding, news consumption now has to follow an ala carte method, which I don't think Westerners have any habit of.
posted by cendawanita at 4:42 PM on March 17 [7 favorites]
- Which atrocities are those, exactly?
- I'm fine with labelling the killing of people who are part of a brutal colonial project that's been engaged in ongoing ethnic cleansing for six and a half decades as "resistance"
People who deny the very real and quite awful stuff Hamas did almost always end up arguing that, okay, even if it did happen it was justified. Almost every time.
I know the general rule about calling out other site users but: this is the same logic that powers atrocity and genocide denial worldwide: It didn't happen but it should have.
posted by BungaDunga at 5:06 PM on March 17 [3 favorites]
- I'm fine with labelling the killing of people who are part of a brutal colonial project that's been engaged in ongoing ethnic cleansing for six and a half decades as "resistance"
People who deny the very real and quite awful stuff Hamas did almost always end up arguing that, okay, even if it did happen it was justified. Almost every time.
I know the general rule about calling out other site users but: this is the same logic that powers atrocity and genocide denial worldwide: It didn't happen but it should have.
posted by BungaDunga at 5:06 PM on March 17 [3 favorites]
To be clear, Hamas denied they'd massacred anyone, that their resistance adhered to international laws and that they would never commit such crimes, and it would have been bad to do so. That was Hamas' own statements.
apologists for them are defending stuff that was so bad that Hamas didn't want to take responsibility for, and in fact said was not legitimate resistance
posted by BungaDunga at 5:10 PM on March 17 [1 favorite]
apologists for them are defending stuff that was so bad that Hamas didn't want to take responsibility for, and in fact said was not legitimate resistance
posted by BungaDunga at 5:10 PM on March 17 [1 favorite]
(Hamas' position was that anyone who was killed must have been killed by unaffiliated people who followed Hamas' valiant freedom fighters through the fence and condemned it, their position was "no no, that's the sort of stuff the IDF does, we are better than that." These statements claiming these acts as legitimate resistance are even more nihilistic than Hamas)
posted by BungaDunga at 5:12 PM on March 17 [2 favorites]
posted by BungaDunga at 5:12 PM on March 17 [2 favorites]
I suspect almost everyone in the Al-Qassam Brigades who took part in the operation on Oct 7 2023 is already dead at this point, but if any of them are not, i definitely support them facing war crimes tribunals in some neutral court with due process that can actually investigate the allegations and issue appropriate judgments, as long as the same thing happens to every single surviving member of the IDF who has ever operated in Occupied Palestine.
posted by adrienneleigh at 5:13 PM on March 17 [10 favorites]
posted by adrienneleigh at 5:13 PM on March 17 [10 favorites]
IME any one who talks about "but why aren't you condemning Hamas" has their hands dripping with blood.
Great, sure, fine. I condemn the less than 2000 Israeli murders that happened on one day a few years ago.
The debt was paid in blood many times over within weeks. There is no remaining justice that it lends against the broad spectrum genocide of the Palestinian people and the destruction of their home that have happened since.
I name all of you murderers and complicit.
posted by constraint at 5:25 PM on March 17 [10 favorites]
Great, sure, fine. I condemn the less than 2000 Israeli murders that happened on one day a few years ago.
The debt was paid in blood many times over within weeks. There is no remaining justice that it lends against the broad spectrum genocide of the Palestinian people and the destruction of their home that have happened since.
I name all of you murderers and complicit.
posted by constraint at 5:25 PM on March 17 [10 favorites]
Meanwhile Israel just launched extensive and completely unprovoked airstrikes in Gaza, and is claiming (what else?) that it's Hamas' fault.
posted by adrienneleigh at 6:25 PM on March 17 [4 favorites]
posted by adrienneleigh at 6:25 PM on March 17 [4 favorites]
>The "mass rape" that didn't actually happen
>>One or two did occur, and were of course massively exaggerated by the IDF propaganda machine.
Some further context on this issue: The article you link to as evidence of one or two rapes occurring is discussing the findings of the mission to Israel/the occupied West Bank by Pramila Patten, the UN special representative on sexual violence in conflict (link to mission report: PDF file). The mission's findings of rape on October 7 were not subsequently confirmed by the Independent International Commission of Inquiry on the Occupied Palestinian Territory, including East Jerusalem, and Israel (link to Commission report: PDF file), although the Commission did confirm one case of rape of a hostage in captivity (link to Commission report: PDF file).
It is regrettable that Patten agreed to conduct this mission, as her office is not actually mandated to conduct in-depth evidence-gathering investigations (see paragraph 4 of UN Security Council Resolution 1888). This is the job of the Commission of Inquiry, which was established by the UN Human Rights Council in 2021 and had already started collecting information about the Oct 7 attack immediately after it occurred. However, Israel has refused to cooperate with the Commission and has blocked it from entering Israel or the Occupied Territories. Instead of agreeing to conduct her own mission, Patten should have declined, and supported the Commission by insisting that Israel allow it to investigate as the body best placed and officially mandated to do so.
posted by mydonkeybenjamin at 7:16 PM on March 17 [5 favorites]
>>One or two did occur, and were of course massively exaggerated by the IDF propaganda machine.
Some further context on this issue: The article you link to as evidence of one or two rapes occurring is discussing the findings of the mission to Israel/the occupied West Bank by Pramila Patten, the UN special representative on sexual violence in conflict (link to mission report: PDF file). The mission's findings of rape on October 7 were not subsequently confirmed by the Independent International Commission of Inquiry on the Occupied Palestinian Territory, including East Jerusalem, and Israel (link to Commission report: PDF file), although the Commission did confirm one case of rape of a hostage in captivity (link to Commission report: PDF file).
It is regrettable that Patten agreed to conduct this mission, as her office is not actually mandated to conduct in-depth evidence-gathering investigations (see paragraph 4 of UN Security Council Resolution 1888). This is the job of the Commission of Inquiry, which was established by the UN Human Rights Council in 2021 and had already started collecting information about the Oct 7 attack immediately after it occurred. However, Israel has refused to cooperate with the Commission and has blocked it from entering Israel or the Occupied Territories. Instead of agreeing to conduct her own mission, Patten should have declined, and supported the Commission by insisting that Israel allow it to investigate as the body best placed and officially mandated to do so.
posted by mydonkeybenjamin at 7:16 PM on March 17 [5 favorites]
With the resumption of airstrikes and breaking of ceasefire, I'm sure great intellects are at work to blame China (and Russia) on capitalizing on these war crimes, but in the meantime, what's the over/under of recommitting oneself to Boycott, Divest, Sanctions again, in 2025 where apparently Westerners are now able to commit to boycotting a nation (even one they live in) and their corporate enablers?
posted by cendawanita at 10:45 PM on March 17 [4 favorites]
posted by cendawanita at 10:45 PM on March 17 [4 favorites]
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posted by fairmettle at 8:29 AM on March 17 [2 favorites]