Rogan and Vonn are the Latest to Play Footsie with AntiSemites
March 22, 2025 4:08 PM Subscribe
On March 8, 2025, Palantir co-founder and Trump ally Joe Lonsdale described the fear generated by the antisemitic conspiracy theorists recently hosted on some of America's top podcasts.
Lonsdale's friends aren't the only ones worrying. In 2023, FBI director Christopher Wray described Jewish hate crime as a “a threat that is reaching, in some way, sort of historic levels...." in part because “the Jewish community is targeted by terrorists really across the spectrum, including homegrown violent extremists, foreign terrorist organizations, and domestic violent extremists.... [O]ur statistics would indicate that for a group that represents only about 2.4% of the American public, they account for something like 60% of all religious-based hate crimes.”
For the so-called New Right, (aka MAGA) and Jews alike, March marked an ugly turning point in the promotion of antisemitic conspiracy theory.
Back home, TImothy Snyder describes the Trump-Vance-Zelens'kyi meeting, consciously built on antisemitic stereotype:
For the first time in my lifetime, a lot of successful Jewish friends called me worried this week — names we all know — asking what is going to happen as these libels re-enter the mainstream, and are shared by millions.
Lonsdale's friends aren't the only ones worrying. In 2023, FBI director Christopher Wray described Jewish hate crime as a “a threat that is reaching, in some way, sort of historic levels...." in part because “the Jewish community is targeted by terrorists really across the spectrum, including homegrown violent extremists, foreign terrorist organizations, and domestic violent extremists.... [O]ur statistics would indicate that for a group that represents only about 2.4% of the American public, they account for something like 60% of all religious-based hate crimes.”
For the so-called New Right, (aka MAGA) and Jews alike, March marked an ugly turning point in the promotion of antisemitic conspiracy theory.
David Frum writes insightfully about conspiracy theory, explaining that:
- On March 5, Rogan hosted conspiracy theorist Ian Carroll, who has claimed that Jews were responsible for 9/11. Among other things, Carroll called sex trafficker Jeffrey Epstein “a dark stain on Israel and on the Jewish people.”
- A few days later, Rogan interviewed podcaster Darryl Cooper, who ... was in the news last year for saying on Tucker Carlson’s online show that Winston Churchill—rather than Hitler—was the “the chief villain of the Second World War.” Cooper has [also] been working on a podcast that attempts to see the war from the German perspective, and used his Rogan appearance to argue—more than a bit disingenuously—that 40 million deaths could have been averted in the war if only the Allies had let Hitler remain in power. For his part, Rogan said Cooper was “an educator . . . an unconventional educator.”
- Not to be outdone, comedian Theo Von hosted Candace Owens, who was fired a year ago from the right-wing website the Daily Wire following a series of antisemitic remarks. Owens told Von that Israel controls the United States through blackmail schemes.
Anti-Semitism itself is a conspiracy theory: a story about a tiny, malign group that masterminds world events, from the killing of Jesus to the creation of capitalism (and—never mind the contradiction—the spread of communism). Anti-Semitism differs in this respect from racism, xenophobia, misogyny, and homophobia. Those other bigotries are founded on contempt. Anti-Semitism, like all forms of conspiracism, is founded on paranoia. Which is why people who start down any conspiracy-seeking path so often arrive at anti-Semitism. The pull is hard to resist, because the idea of Jews as arch-manipulators is such a powerful cultural resource.No stranger to the backstairs, Trump has been known to bask in it.
The conspiracy seeker may start, for example, with the idea that Big Pharma is lying about vaccines. That’s not a specifically anti-Semitic form of paranoia. But as the conspiracy seeker delves deeper, the world begins to look like a series of secrets within secrets. Inside them all must lurk the ultimate boss. Who must that be?
John Buchan’s novel The Thirty-Nine Steps—a fiction steeped in paranoid conspiracism—gives the following words to one of its characters: “The Jew is everywhere, but you have to go far down the backstairs to find him.” That is the conspiracy seeker’s experience: always going down the backstairs, only to discover “the Jew."
In 2015, he tweeted an image of Hillary Clinton surrounded by money with the words “Most Corrupt Candidate Ever!” inside a six-pointed star, the shape of the Star of David. Trump also ran an ad featuring several prominent Jews — George Soros, Janet L. Yellen and Lloyd Blankfein — while warning of “global special interests.” At a White House Hanukkah party in 2018, Trump said Vice President Mike Pence and second lady Karen Pence go to Israel “and they love your country. They love your country. And they love this country” — the implication being that “this country” is distinct from “your country.” In 2022, the former president attacked American Jews on Truth Social for being insufficiently supportive.... “Wonderful Evangelicals are far more appreciative of [Trump’s record on Israel] than the people of the Jewish faith, especially those living in the U.S.,” Trump said. Wagering that he was so popular in Israel that he could be elected prime minister, Trump added: “U.S. Jews have to get their act together and appreciate what they have in Israel — Before it is too late!”The Trump Administration's foreign policy is also rife with antisemitism, with Musk of the Nazi salute, along with Vance, both openly supporting the leadership of the neo-Nazi AfD, which Germany classifies as a security threat.
Back home, TImothy Snyder describes the Trump-Vance-Zelens'kyi meeting, consciously built on antisemitic stereotype:
To conclude that the [Trump, Vance, Zelens'kyi] scene in the White House was antisemitic, one does not need to know [much]. It's all right there: the demand for deference, the obsession with money, the claims of corruption and dishonesty, the encirclement, the loud voices, the bizarre grievances, the underlying sense that a Jewish person does not fit and must be expelled…. [These are] historical markers of antisemitism; Zelens'kyi's Jewish origins; the particular way he was treated by non-Jews….The man who asked him about his clothes, Brian Glenn, is a conspiracy-theorizing far-right journalist… [who] seem[s] to know Marjorie Taylor-Greene, she of the Jewish space lasers and the determined defense of Russian propaganda. The man who demanded deference and spoke of "propaganda tours," JD Vance, had just returned from Germany, where he made a point of publicly supporting the German far right. Vance presents Zelens'kyi as a corrupt liar, with no evidence beyond what was brought to him by an internet which has, apparently, found his vulnerabilities.… [T]he man behind them all, Elon Musk, supports the extreme right in several countries, adapts his social media platform to support fascists, and is notorious around the world for his Hitlergrüß. Musk's idea that Zelens'kyi is a grifter could hardly be more antisemitic.In "Antisemitism" and Antisemitism, Snyder points out both the abuse of the word and the spread of the phenomenon, writing:
The Musk-Trump policy today is to defund, harass and persecute American universities on the grounds that they permit antisemitism. The word "antisemitism" is being used to justify actions that, aside from many other wrongs, will harm Jews, and we should consider whether they are designed to do so.... The notion is that antisemitism is such a problem that we should accept obviously authoritarian policies to combat it. But will authoritarianism help Jews? And is this particular policy of deportation in any way designed to support Jewish Americans? This seems unlikely to be the motivation of those who made the policy.Snyder's point about divisions matters. It's easier to control a divided people, and the first to get "divided off" are identifiable minorities, clear in difference, and judged less protected than the majority: Jews, LGBTQ, Migrants, Women, people of color. Moreover Jews, moreover, have long been considered to be the ‘canary in the coalmine of global hatred.’
Deporting a Muslim who has committed no crime in the name of Jews is not exactly a favor to Jews. It looks more like a provocation by the federal government, designed to generate strife among communities. And making exceptions to constitutional protections of free speech and free assembly in one case undermines the rule of law as a whole.
Christianity has yet to fully shed antisemitism.
posted by doctornemo at 4:40 PM on March 22 [9 favorites]
posted by doctornemo at 4:40 PM on March 22 [9 favorites]
Katie Halper, Max Blumenthal, JVP, and many other radical leftist Jewish people of conscience have been sounding alarms about this possibility for a long time... Antisemitism has, for too long now, been conflated to include any criticism of the actions carried out by the state of Israel, and that was a strategy which was bound to backfire eventually. Jewish people are not a monolith, and it's antisemitic to lump all Jews together.
Peter Beinart on "Being Jewish after the Destruction of Gaza"
posted by nikoniko at 5:13 PM on March 22 [21 favorites]
Peter Beinart on "Being Jewish after the Destruction of Gaza"
posted by nikoniko at 5:13 PM on March 22 [21 favorites]
ADL is fully abdicating its role
Is Dobbs the fault of Planned Parenthood or NOW abdicating their roles? Was the George Floyd murder the fault of the NAACP failing to meet its mandate? No, of course not. Neither women nor Black Americans are a monolith represented by a single organization or leader. Why do you think Jews are different?
posted by Violet Blue at 5:23 PM on March 22 [2 favorites]
Is Dobbs the fault of Planned Parenthood or NOW abdicating their roles? Was the George Floyd murder the fault of the NAACP failing to meet its mandate? No, of course not. Neither women nor Black Americans are a monolith represented by a single organization or leader. Why do you think Jews are different?
posted by Violet Blue at 5:23 PM on March 22 [2 favorites]
Is Dobbs the fault of Planned Parenthood or NOW abdicating their roles?
I didn't see constraint saying that anti-semitism is the fault of the ADL abdicating its role, only that it's not helping. You can be sure that if Planned Parenthood or NOW had abdicated their roles, they'd be called out in threads on Dobbs.
posted by Ickster at 5:30 PM on March 22 [27 favorites]
I didn't see constraint saying that anti-semitism is the fault of the ADL abdicating its role, only that it's not helping. You can be sure that if Planned Parenthood or NOW had abdicated their roles, they'd be called out in threads on Dobbs.
posted by Ickster at 5:30 PM on March 22 [27 favorites]
I am Jewish and will say with absolute certainty that the ADL has lost all credibility in my eyes. Fuck that phony ass organization and fuck Jonathan Greenblatt, and Abe Foxman before him. They don't just fail to meet their mandate, they expressly suck and contribute to the problem by trying to spread dangerous right wing nonsense about how anti-Israel speech is antisemitism. Not only does it not help, it deliberately harms. They can eat shit.
posted by windbox at 5:50 PM on March 22 [70 favorites]
posted by windbox at 5:50 PM on March 22 [70 favorites]
Violet Blue, that's a really strange comparison.
Planned Parenthood and NOW fought and lost. the NAACP has nothing to do with George Floyd's murder (other than fighting an impossible fight against the forces that caused it).
the ADL has consistently conflated criticism of Israel with anti-Semitism and pro-Palestian action as terrorism and anti-Semitism. when those are coming from Jews, they've questioned their Jewishness. all of that makes it harder for people to take actual anti-Semitism seriously while also leading to the terrible things happening at Columbia University (as a singular example of something also happening other places).
so, yes they've abdicated their role as the Anti Defamation [of Jews] League.
fun fact... there are at least twice as many Christian Zionists (primarily evangelicals) as Jews (whether Zionist or anti-Zionist) in the United States
posted by kokaku at 6:00 PM on March 22 [23 favorites]
Planned Parenthood and NOW fought and lost. the NAACP has nothing to do with George Floyd's murder (other than fighting an impossible fight against the forces that caused it).
the ADL has consistently conflated criticism of Israel with anti-Semitism and pro-Palestian action as terrorism and anti-Semitism. when those are coming from Jews, they've questioned their Jewishness. all of that makes it harder for people to take actual anti-Semitism seriously while also leading to the terrible things happening at Columbia University (as a singular example of something also happening other places).
so, yes they've abdicated their role as the Anti Defamation [of Jews] League.
fun fact... there are at least twice as many Christian Zionists (primarily evangelicals) as Jews (whether Zionist or anti-Zionist) in the United States
posted by kokaku at 6:00 PM on March 22 [23 favorites]
It's not strange. These aren't arguments that folks would make about other groups. If only X, then Y vis-a-vis public perception about, and treatment of, [group].
It wouldn't occur to me in a million years that the ADL speaks for me or Jews, generally. I would look to the U.S. government for support against racism, which Biden provided — and Trump perverted.
To say that the ADL and CPAC are "not helping" suggests that were liberal Jews to rise up with a single voice and eradicate, or re-educate, two conservative organizations, anti-semitism would somehow lessen. That's not how hate works, and it comes within inches of blaming the object of that hate — rather than the haters.
posted by Violet Blue at 6:13 PM on March 22 [4 favorites]
It wouldn't occur to me in a million years that the ADL speaks for me or Jews, generally. I would look to the U.S. government for support against racism, which Biden provided — and Trump perverted.
To say that the ADL and CPAC are "not helping" suggests that were liberal Jews to rise up with a single voice and eradicate, or re-educate, two conservative organizations, anti-semitism would somehow lessen. That's not how hate works, and it comes within inches of blaming the object of that hate — rather than the haters.
posted by Violet Blue at 6:13 PM on March 22 [4 favorites]
Nobody said any of that, stop arguing with straw-people.
posted by tivalasvegas at 6:40 PM on March 22 [28 favorites]
posted by tivalasvegas at 6:40 PM on March 22 [28 favorites]
Nobody said any of that, stop arguing with straw-people.
Maybe we can have a thread that just talks about antisemitism without it also being a thread about what the Jews do or don't do vis-a-vis Palestinian issues. Crazy, huh?
posted by Violet Blue at 6:46 PM on March 22 [10 favorites]
Maybe we can have a thread that just talks about antisemitism without it also being a thread about what the Jews do or don't do vis-a-vis Palestinian issues. Crazy, huh?
posted by Violet Blue at 6:46 PM on March 22 [10 favorites]
Well, there's at least one Jewish person in this thread who doesn't agree with the ADL's stance and felt like they wanted to say something about it. Maybe you can adhere to the norm that thread posters don't get to police threads on MeFi.
Also, stop arguing with straw-people.
posted by tivalasvegas at 6:54 PM on March 22 [30 favorites]
Also, stop arguing with straw-people.
posted by tivalasvegas at 6:54 PM on March 22 [30 favorites]
The ADL, incredibly, went out of their way to say that Musk's Nazi salute was not a Nazi salute. Which even tops their felicitation of Rupert Murdoch a few years ago.
There was a time when I thought that though ADL could not be trusted on Palestine, they could still be trusted to fight domestic White-supremacist anti-semitism. That time appears to sadly be past.
posted by splitpeasoup at 7:38 PM on March 22 [31 favorites]
There was a time when I thought that though ADL could not be trusted on Palestine, they could still be trusted to fight domestic White-supremacist anti-semitism. That time appears to sadly be past.
posted by splitpeasoup at 7:38 PM on March 22 [31 favorites]
Wikipedia's ADL entry: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Defamation_League
Violet Blue, I'm not sure you're making a salient point re: constraint's comment
posted by ginger.beef at 7:49 PM on March 22 [1 favorite]
Violet Blue, I'm not sure you're making a salient point re: constraint's comment
posted by ginger.beef at 7:49 PM on March 22 [1 favorite]
These aren't arguments that folks would make about other groups.
These are arguments that are routinely made about other advocacy groups whose actions undermine that very advocacy - which is the point that people are making about the ADL. The ADL has historically conflated antizionism and antisemitism, which both makes it harder to track the latter while enabling it, and as of late has engaged in the whitewashing of antisemitic displays of individuals, seemingly to curry favor with them.
Nobody is talking about the ADL "speaking" for anyone, but how their actual documented actions are undercutting their ostensible mission. And that should trouble anyone who thinks that mission is important.
posted by NoxAeternum at 7:53 PM on March 22 [19 favorites]
These are arguments that are routinely made about other advocacy groups whose actions undermine that very advocacy - which is the point that people are making about the ADL. The ADL has historically conflated antizionism and antisemitism, which both makes it harder to track the latter while enabling it, and as of late has engaged in the whitewashing of antisemitic displays of individuals, seemingly to curry favor with them.
Nobody is talking about the ADL "speaking" for anyone, but how their actual documented actions are undercutting their ostensible mission. And that should trouble anyone who thinks that mission is important.
posted by NoxAeternum at 7:53 PM on March 22 [19 favorites]
If you're the Palantir Co-founder and Trump supporter your friends need to understand that you actively created this over a decade. You hold more responsibility than any podcaster.
posted by cmfletcher at 7:55 PM on March 22 [7 favorites]
posted by cmfletcher at 7:55 PM on March 22 [7 favorites]
I'm glad Lonsdale is speaking up. He has credibility among conservatives and can't be dismissed in that crowd, which needs to hear this.
posted by julianeon at 8:58 PM on March 22 [3 favorites]
posted by julianeon at 8:58 PM on March 22 [3 favorites]
The Joe Rogan Experience has 14.5 million listeners. Theo Von has 11.2 million listeners. I'd reckon that's several million more people than have even heard of the ADL, never mind know what positions Greenblatt has taken in regard to the Palestinians.
If you're looking for someone with the power to influence public opinion, maybe check out Kenneth L. Marcus, the hard-right zealot and sole or main author of Title VI, which was intended to permanently conflate anti-zionism with antisemitic speech on college campuses in order to regulate both out of existence. He is also the founder of the Brandeis Center (completely unrelated to the University), which represented students at the almost completely hard-right-backed hearings on antisemitism in universities during the Biden Administration.
To my mind, what Marcus has accomplished is set Jews up to be blamed, which is to say scapegoated, for the loss of funding at Columbia (a school that's 20% Jewish in a city that is also about 20% Jewish), and no doubt other universities to come.
posted by Violet Blue at 9:09 PM on March 22 [3 favorites]
If you're looking for someone with the power to influence public opinion, maybe check out Kenneth L. Marcus, the hard-right zealot and sole or main author of Title VI, which was intended to permanently conflate anti-zionism with antisemitic speech on college campuses in order to regulate both out of existence. He is also the founder of the Brandeis Center (completely unrelated to the University), which represented students at the almost completely hard-right-backed hearings on antisemitism in universities during the Biden Administration.
To my mind, what Marcus has accomplished is set Jews up to be blamed, which is to say scapegoated, for the loss of funding at Columbia (a school that's 20% Jewish in a city that is also about 20% Jewish), and no doubt other universities to come.
posted by Violet Blue at 9:09 PM on March 22 [3 favorites]
I'm glad Lonsdale is speaking up. He has credibility among conservatives and can't be dismissed in that crowd, which needs to hear this.
Agreed.
I wasn't sure how to parse it, but the article that appeared in suggested a MAGA split between antisemites and not, and the tweet suggests, of course, that Lonsdale is in the "not" category, but I don't know much about him, or whether Thiel, Musk's former business partner and Lonsdale's current business partner, is as antisemitic as Musk is.
posted by Violet Blue at 9:13 PM on March 22
Agreed.
I wasn't sure how to parse it, but the article that appeared in suggested a MAGA split between antisemites and not, and the tweet suggests, of course, that Lonsdale is in the "not" category, but I don't know much about him, or whether Thiel, Musk's former business partner and Lonsdale's current business partner, is as antisemitic as Musk is.
posted by Violet Blue at 9:13 PM on March 22
Kenneth L. Marcus, the hard-right zealot and sole or main author of Title VI, which was intended to permanently conflate anti-zionism with antisemitic speech on college campuses
Is there a word or two missing there before "Title VI"? Maybe " an interpretation of..."?
If not, this feels very conspiracy theoryish! (But I think it must be a typo.)
posted by nobody at 9:40 PM on March 22 [2 favorites]
Is there a word or two missing there before "Title VI"? Maybe " an interpretation of..."?
If not, this feels very conspiracy theoryish! (But I think it must be a typo.)
posted by nobody at 9:40 PM on March 22 [2 favorites]
I'd reckon that's several million more people than have even heard of the ADL, never mind know what positions Greenblatt has taken in regard to the Palestinians.
uh as a jew who teaches at a university with active palestine protests, i can tell you that his zeal for persecuting them is a real problem and also not quite about his beliefs “in regard to Palestinians” as some international abstraction; nor is it about the actual sources of antisemitism in this country. it’s not clear to me from your descriptions here that you know what his positions are. he is pursuing the same kinds of things marcus is.
posted by knock my sock and i'll clean your clock at 9:50 PM on March 22 [11 favorites]
uh as a jew who teaches at a university with active palestine protests, i can tell you that his zeal for persecuting them is a real problem and also not quite about his beliefs “in regard to Palestinians” as some international abstraction; nor is it about the actual sources of antisemitism in this country. it’s not clear to me from your descriptions here that you know what his positions are. he is pursuing the same kinds of things marcus is.
posted by knock my sock and i'll clean your clock at 9:50 PM on March 22 [11 favorites]
he is pursuing the same kinds of things marcus is.
Then why don't you explain Title VI.
posted by Violet Blue at 9:55 PM on March 22
Then why don't you explain Title VI.
posted by Violet Blue at 9:55 PM on March 22
the ADL would love nothing more than to make zionists a protected class.
posted by knock my sock and i'll clean your clock at 10:00 PM on March 22 [5 favorites]
posted by knock my sock and i'll clean your clock at 10:00 PM on March 22 [5 favorites]
joint complaint filed by brandeis center and the ADL for starters. all i had to do was google “title vi” and ADL, which you clearly haven’t even done.
here’s one from this month.
ADL social media calling it a “critical tool in fighting antisemitism.”
posted by knock my sock and i'll clean your clock at 10:02 PM on March 22 [10 favorites]
here’s one from this month.
ADL social media calling it a “critical tool in fighting antisemitism.”
posted by knock my sock and i'll clean your clock at 10:02 PM on March 22 [10 favorites]
set Jews up to be blamed, which is to say scapegoated, for the loss of funding at Columbia
There is an story from the NYTimes that suggests Trump picked the $400m figure as revenge for a 1980s real estate deal with Columbia that didn't go his way — to the tune of $400m.
Columbia is just part and parcel of an ongoing Fascist attack on academia, here by taking away their funding. The connection to protests over the genocide of Palestinians is just to give convenient cover to that attack. Project 2025 gives no more care for the existence of Jewish people than any other group of right-wing Christians.
It's odd because Jewish people and institutions are actively siding with people, who would otherwise be happy to see them dead. If they only had the wisdom to pick friends other than neo-Nazis.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 10:08 PM on March 22 [12 favorites]
There is an story from the NYTimes that suggests Trump picked the $400m figure as revenge for a 1980s real estate deal with Columbia that didn't go his way — to the tune of $400m.
Columbia is just part and parcel of an ongoing Fascist attack on academia, here by taking away their funding. The connection to protests over the genocide of Palestinians is just to give convenient cover to that attack. Project 2025 gives no more care for the existence of Jewish people than any other group of right-wing Christians.
It's odd because Jewish people and institutions are actively siding with people, who would otherwise be happy to see them dead. If they only had the wisdom to pick friends other than neo-Nazis.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 10:08 PM on March 22 [12 favorites]
Also, it doesn't help to say "Jewish people" when one could more nuancedly specify "Jewish zionists," or "zionists, including Jewish zionists."
posted by knucklebones at 11:11 PM on March 22 [8 favorites]
posted by knucklebones at 11:11 PM on March 22 [8 favorites]
Maybe we can have a thread that just talks about antisemitism without it also being a thread about what the Jews do or don't do vis-a-vis Palestinian issues. Crazy, huh?
Given that Israel's consistent record of atrocities in Palestine since its very founding is the elephant that's not only in the room but most of the way to burying it in elephant shit then yeah, that would be a little crazy.
Antisemitism is, at its heart, a fundamentally unjust position. Any attempt to get rid of it, then, needs to be based on a commitment to justice. Trying to stamp out antisemitism by force is like declaring war on terror and expecting to win; it's an enterprise so tangled up in its own internal contradictions that it cannot possibly work.
The most absurd of those contradictions is the one around the conflation of Judaism itself with unwavering support for Israel. Blaming "the Jews" for the ongoing genocide in Palestine is an obviously antisemitic position whose predictable and predicted consequences have included a rapid and well-documented worldwide rise in physical attacks on Jews and Jewish sacred spaces since that genocide's latest escalation. And yet Israel's most vociferous defenders consistently make this exact conflation in order to decry any criticism of Israel, regardless of accuracy, as illegitimate because by-definition antisemitic.
I don't see how it's reasonable to ask for a thread on antisemitism to avoid all mention of Israel given the degree to which Israel's behaviour and that of its defenders both worsens antisemitism and hands out free passes to the same kind of bigots responsible for the Holocaust.
As for Joe Lonsdale: clearly just another mark who never thought the face-eating leopards he snuggles up to would ever eat his face.
posted by flabdablet at 11:52 PM on March 22 [26 favorites]
Given that Israel's consistent record of atrocities in Palestine since its very founding is the elephant that's not only in the room but most of the way to burying it in elephant shit then yeah, that would be a little crazy.
Antisemitism is, at its heart, a fundamentally unjust position. Any attempt to get rid of it, then, needs to be based on a commitment to justice. Trying to stamp out antisemitism by force is like declaring war on terror and expecting to win; it's an enterprise so tangled up in its own internal contradictions that it cannot possibly work.
The most absurd of those contradictions is the one around the conflation of Judaism itself with unwavering support for Israel. Blaming "the Jews" for the ongoing genocide in Palestine is an obviously antisemitic position whose predictable and predicted consequences have included a rapid and well-documented worldwide rise in physical attacks on Jews and Jewish sacred spaces since that genocide's latest escalation. And yet Israel's most vociferous defenders consistently make this exact conflation in order to decry any criticism of Israel, regardless of accuracy, as illegitimate because by-definition antisemitic.
I don't see how it's reasonable to ask for a thread on antisemitism to avoid all mention of Israel given the degree to which Israel's behaviour and that of its defenders both worsens antisemitism and hands out free passes to the same kind of bigots responsible for the Holocaust.
As for Joe Lonsdale: clearly just another mark who never thought the face-eating leopards he snuggles up to would ever eat his face.
posted by flabdablet at 11:52 PM on March 22 [26 favorites]
I don't see how it's reasonable to ask for a thread on antisemitism to avoid all mention of Israel given the degree to which Israel's behaviour and that of its defenders both worsens antisemitism and hands out free passes to the same kind of bigots responsible for the Holocaust.
As an American, I am much more concerned about the opinions and impact of the American president and American entertainers. Though I/P issues have definitely contributed to antisemitism, especially among the young, when I searched for articles to fill out this post, it did not come up. The reason that protesters were relatively easy to shut down prior to the presidential election was that it was a nondominant issue on most US campuses. That's not the case for anti-semitism nationwide. At this point, I find it fucking offensive that the conversation has repeatedly been co-opted.
And for the record: Joe Lonsdale is Jewish.
posted by Violet Blue at 12:12 AM on March 23 [1 favorite]
As an American, I am much more concerned about the opinions and impact of the American president and American entertainers. Though I/P issues have definitely contributed to antisemitism, especially among the young, when I searched for articles to fill out this post, it did not come up. The reason that protesters were relatively easy to shut down prior to the presidential election was that it was a nondominant issue on most US campuses. That's not the case for anti-semitism nationwide. At this point, I find it fucking offensive that the conversation has repeatedly been co-opted.
And for the record: Joe Lonsdale is Jewish.
posted by Violet Blue at 12:12 AM on March 23 [1 favorite]
If you're looking for someone with the power to influence public opinion, maybe check out Kenneth L. Marcus, the hard-right zealot and sole or main author of Title VI, which was intended to permanently conflate anti-zionism with antisemitic speech on college campuses in order to regulate both out of existence
It is genuinely bizarre to call the ADL thing a derail and turn around and point at this guy instead. They are pushing the same shit. And the point with respect to the ADL is - these are the people who are supposed to be defending us, and they are squandering their credibility on this shit.
posted by atoxyl at 12:38 AM on March 23 [5 favorites]
It is genuinely bizarre to call the ADL thing a derail and turn around and point at this guy instead. They are pushing the same shit. And the point with respect to the ADL is - these are the people who are supposed to be defending us, and they are squandering their credibility on this shit.
posted by atoxyl at 12:38 AM on March 23 [5 favorites]
I do think it would be nice if this thread were not entirely arguing about the ADL comment but it was a fair comment!
posted by atoxyl at 12:42 AM on March 23 [3 favorites]
posted by atoxyl at 12:42 AM on March 23 [3 favorites]
If you want to talk far-right and the state of Israel, the Israeli government recently made the choice to invite far-right politicians to their conference on anti-semitism.
"After welcoming far-right politicians, Israel’s antisemitism conference is hemorrhaging speakers."
In a thread about anti-semitism, of course the topic of the Israeli government will come up? But there's this paradox now, of far-right political parties supporting the far-right Israeli government, while at the same time using anti-Semitic conspiracy theories to motivate their rank and file...
posted by subdee at 1:20 AM on March 23 [10 favorites]
"After welcoming far-right politicians, Israel’s antisemitism conference is hemorrhaging speakers."
In a thread about anti-semitism, of course the topic of the Israeli government will come up? But there's this paradox now, of far-right political parties supporting the far-right Israeli government, while at the same time using anti-Semitic conspiracy theories to motivate their rank and file...
posted by subdee at 1:20 AM on March 23 [10 favorites]
The post included reference to Columbia, and Marcus touts himself by saying, the New York Times has called him “The Man Who Helped Redefine Campus Anti-Semitism,” which from what I've read is correct. He was enormously influential to the creation of Title VI, and he legally represents plaintiffs in Title VI cases.
I'm sure given the right tools the ADL could lead the Jews to a prejudice-free world full of kittens and unicorns. In the real world, however, the topic of antisemitism or even Jewish opinion has repeatedly been overridden by people who would rather talk about ADL's leadership choices or Israel's actions. Maybe folks could send angry mail to Joe Rogan or Theo Von instead, eh?
Does no one find it hair-curling that Carroll is claiming WWII was Churchill's fault, and that 40 million deaths could have been averted if only Hitler had remained in power — and all Rogan could think to say was that Carroll was an "unconventional educator"?
I have mixed feelings on how Holocaust education and Jewish identity is often handled, though I found this map of Jewish expulsion bracing. Nonetheless, in a 50-state survey, 20% of respondents thought Jews had caused the Holocaust, and 63% had no idea that it was six million Jews who died — and that strikes me as dangerous.
posted by Violet Blue at 1:28 AM on March 23 [5 favorites]
I'm sure given the right tools the ADL could lead the Jews to a prejudice-free world full of kittens and unicorns. In the real world, however, the topic of antisemitism or even Jewish opinion has repeatedly been overridden by people who would rather talk about ADL's leadership choices or Israel's actions. Maybe folks could send angry mail to Joe Rogan or Theo Von instead, eh?
Does no one find it hair-curling that Carroll is claiming WWII was Churchill's fault, and that 40 million deaths could have been averted if only Hitler had remained in power — and all Rogan could think to say was that Carroll was an "unconventional educator"?
I have mixed feelings on how Holocaust education and Jewish identity is often handled, though I found this map of Jewish expulsion bracing. Nonetheless, in a 50-state survey, 20% of respondents thought Jews had caused the Holocaust, and 63% had no idea that it was six million Jews who died — and that strikes me as dangerous.
posted by Violet Blue at 1:28 AM on March 23 [5 favorites]
Violet Blue, you've done a great service here in your main post and the subsequent links you've provided, so thank you. I absolutely agree that Rogan's servility to antisemites and historical revisionists is appalling, as are those last statistics you've provided about one in five Americans thinking Jews caused the Holocaust and 63% being unaware of the six million figure. The latter is one of the most famous statistics of the twentieth century, and ignorance of it is a bad, bad sign.
I would encourage you to let any I/P discussion be whatever it will be; threads often don't go where their posters expect. Instead, I'd focus on the aspects you want to highlight in your own comments, and let others do the same. For what its worth, at this point I can't disentangle global antisemitism from a consideration of Israel's actions either, any more than a discussion of communism taking place fifty years ago could have ignored the Soviet Union ("Guys, we're trying to discuss Friedrich Engels and the German Communist League here!").
But let me ask about one small detail of your post. You mention "the so-called New Right, (aka MAGA)": is anyone really calling this the "New Right"? The page you link doesn't. I don't see it as a particularly helpful term; it's not very specific, and "new" things have a way of ending up old (New York; Edinburgh's New Town). People may bristle at the thought of an acronym of Trump's stupid phrase ending up as the accepted way of denoting an entire political movement, but there's an obvious historical precedent. MAGA people use the label of themselves as a badge of pride, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't use it as their opponents: let their own actions stick to it until it's so thoroughly discredited and disgraced that they wish they'd never heard it. (I know that it already is in half of America's eyes, but one day it will be in the eyes of 95%.... eventually.)
posted by rory at 1:53 AM on March 23 [7 favorites]
I would encourage you to let any I/P discussion be whatever it will be; threads often don't go where their posters expect. Instead, I'd focus on the aspects you want to highlight in your own comments, and let others do the same. For what its worth, at this point I can't disentangle global antisemitism from a consideration of Israel's actions either, any more than a discussion of communism taking place fifty years ago could have ignored the Soviet Union ("Guys, we're trying to discuss Friedrich Engels and the German Communist League here!").
But let me ask about one small detail of your post. You mention "the so-called New Right, (aka MAGA)": is anyone really calling this the "New Right"? The page you link doesn't. I don't see it as a particularly helpful term; it's not very specific, and "new" things have a way of ending up old (New York; Edinburgh's New Town). People may bristle at the thought of an acronym of Trump's stupid phrase ending up as the accepted way of denoting an entire political movement, but there's an obvious historical precedent. MAGA people use the label of themselves as a badge of pride, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't use it as their opponents: let their own actions stick to it until it's so thoroughly discredited and disgraced that they wish they'd never heard it. (I know that it already is in half of America's eyes, but one day it will be in the eyes of 95%.... eventually.)
posted by rory at 1:53 AM on March 23 [7 favorites]
The post included reference to Columbia, and Marcus touts himself by saying
I didn’t mean Kenneth Marcus was irrelevant, I meant that it doesn’t make sense to consider him relevant but the ADL, which has worked with him and jointly filed Title VI complaints, irrelevant. Anyway, enough about that.
Does no one find it hair-curling that Carroll is claiming WWII was Churchill's fault, and that 40 million deaths could have been averted if only Hitler had remained in power
Of all of these this is the guy who I would have thought beyond the pale, yeah, because I have seen examples of his undisguised fascist sympathies on social media. Supposedly he disguises it better for his own podcasts? Doesn’t seem like he was too subtle on Rogan, though.
I will also throw in that I have been surprised lately by antisemitic comments on YouTube videos where I wouldn’t really expect them. Like I’ll watch a movie/TV clip where there’s some identifiably or stereotypically Jewish character and sometimes there’s a whole chain of people just… signaling that they know all the memes to gesture at Jews controlling the media/government/what have you.
posted by atoxyl at 2:15 AM on March 23 [3 favorites]
I didn’t mean Kenneth Marcus was irrelevant, I meant that it doesn’t make sense to consider him relevant but the ADL, which has worked with him and jointly filed Title VI complaints, irrelevant. Anyway, enough about that.
Does no one find it hair-curling that Carroll is claiming WWII was Churchill's fault, and that 40 million deaths could have been averted if only Hitler had remained in power
Of all of these this is the guy who I would have thought beyond the pale, yeah, because I have seen examples of his undisguised fascist sympathies on social media. Supposedly he disguises it better for his own podcasts? Doesn’t seem like he was too subtle on Rogan, though.
I will also throw in that I have been surprised lately by antisemitic comments on YouTube videos where I wouldn’t really expect them. Like I’ll watch a movie/TV clip where there’s some identifiably or stereotypically Jewish character and sometimes there’s a whole chain of people just… signaling that they know all the memes to gesture at Jews controlling the media/government/what have you.
posted by atoxyl at 2:15 AM on March 23 [3 favorites]
I hesitate to get into an online discussion on ehat constitutes anti-Semitism (criticizing Israel ≠ anti-Semitism). I have found The Jerusalem Declaration to be a helpful guide.
And Skin in The Game: How anti-Semitism animates White Nationalism is another must read.
"To recognize that antisemitism is not a sideshow to racism within White nationalist thought is important for at least two reasons. First, it allows us to identify the fuel that White nationalist ideology uses to power its anti-Black racism, its contempt for other people of color, and its xenophobia—as well as the misogyny and other forms of hatred it holds dear.""
posted by brookeb at 3:43 AM on March 23 [8 favorites]
And Skin in The Game: How anti-Semitism animates White Nationalism is another must read.
"To recognize that antisemitism is not a sideshow to racism within White nationalist thought is important for at least two reasons. First, it allows us to identify the fuel that White nationalist ideology uses to power its anti-Black racism, its contempt for other people of color, and its xenophobia—as well as the misogyny and other forms of hatred it holds dear.""
posted by brookeb at 3:43 AM on March 23 [8 favorites]
Then why don't you explain Title VI.
hmm looks like i explained it and you had nothing to say about that because i was correct that you didn’t know what you were talking about
In the real world, however, the topic of antisemitism or even Jewish opinion has repeatedly been overridden by people who would rather talk about ADL's leadership choices or Israel's actions
again, if what concerns you is the abuse of title vi, insisting that it’s an antisemitic derail about “the ADL’s leadership choices” or that they’re being impugned by people angry about “israel’s actions,” not about their complicity in this speech suppression—well, i don’t think you’re actually all that concerned about title vi.
posted by knock my sock and i'll clean your clock at 5:53 AM on March 23 [5 favorites]
hmm looks like i explained it and you had nothing to say about that because i was correct that you didn’t know what you were talking about
In the real world, however, the topic of antisemitism or even Jewish opinion has repeatedly been overridden by people who would rather talk about ADL's leadership choices or Israel's actions
again, if what concerns you is the abuse of title vi, insisting that it’s an antisemitic derail about “the ADL’s leadership choices” or that they’re being impugned by people angry about “israel’s actions,” not about their complicity in this speech suppression—well, i don’t think you’re actually all that concerned about title vi.
posted by knock my sock and i'll clean your clock at 5:53 AM on March 23 [5 favorites]
At this point, I find it fucking offensive that the conversation has repeatedly been co-opted.
your digging in in response to a single comment with a series of responses that suggests you are factually incorrect, misrepresenting others’ opinions, and speaking over other jewish people like yours is the only jewish perspective that matters is why this discussion is not where you want it to be, full stop. of course people are responding to those comments. it’s ok to be wrong. take the L and move on.
posted by knock my sock and i'll clean your clock at 6:02 AM on March 23 [16 favorites]
your digging in in response to a single comment with a series of responses that suggests you are factually incorrect, misrepresenting others’ opinions, and speaking over other jewish people like yours is the only jewish perspective that matters is why this discussion is not where you want it to be, full stop. of course people are responding to those comments. it’s ok to be wrong. take the L and move on.
posted by knock my sock and i'll clean your clock at 6:02 AM on March 23 [16 favorites]
It is disingenuous at best to discuss contemporary Jewish existence or antisemitism without including Palestine. Israel's white Jewish politicians are weaponizing Judaism to commit genocide on Indigenous people and the United States is happily bankrolling the ongoing horrors.
Side note, an early comment on this thread mentions "Katie Halper, Max Blumenthal, JVP, and many other radical leftist Jewish people of conscience" -- ugh, Max Blumenthal is Not Great. A journalist friend of mine, who used to be good friends with him, has told me that he's transphobic; additionally, I have personally witnessed him being wildly inappropriate at a public event honoring Aaron Bushnell, the young man who self-immolated in front of the zionist embassy in Washington, DC. He also headlined an anti vaxer rally a few years ago. All of this to say: please don't uplift Max Blumenthal as one of the good ones. He may have good perspectives occasionally, but a broken clock is right twice a day, too.
posted by wicked_sassy at 6:11 AM on March 23 [7 favorites]
Side note, an early comment on this thread mentions "Katie Halper, Max Blumenthal, JVP, and many other radical leftist Jewish people of conscience" -- ugh, Max Blumenthal is Not Great. A journalist friend of mine, who used to be good friends with him, has told me that he's transphobic; additionally, I have personally witnessed him being wildly inappropriate at a public event honoring Aaron Bushnell, the young man who self-immolated in front of the zionist embassy in Washington, DC. He also headlined an anti vaxer rally a few years ago. All of this to say: please don't uplift Max Blumenthal as one of the good ones. He may have good perspectives occasionally, but a broken clock is right twice a day, too.
posted by wicked_sassy at 6:11 AM on March 23 [7 favorites]
Also: The reason that protesters were relatively easy to shut down prior to the presidential election was that it was a nondominant issue on most US campuses.
Uh, says who? I'd posit that the university protests were "relatively easy to shut down" because of state-sanctioned violence. Of course the students were "relatively easy to shut down" -- they were brutalized with tear gas, etc, often while sleeping.
posted by wicked_sassy at 6:22 AM on March 23 [11 favorites]
Uh, says who? I'd posit that the university protests were "relatively easy to shut down" because of state-sanctioned violence. Of course the students were "relatively easy to shut down" -- they were brutalized with tear gas, etc, often while sleeping.
posted by wicked_sassy at 6:22 AM on March 23 [11 favorites]
He was enormously influential to the creation of Title VI, and he legally represents plaintiffs in Title VI cases.
Wait, I guess it wasn't a typo. Title VI is a section of the Civil Rights Act of 1964!
(Am I being overly fussy/nitpicky to suggest it's seriously no good to promote a slippage between the Civil Rights Act itself and how it got later interpreted by this guy under the W. Bush and Trump administrations? I'm not suggesting you're doing this on purpose, but I wonder about what media/info sources could have led to this misconception.)
posted by nobody at 6:24 AM on March 23 [2 favorites]
Wait, I guess it wasn't a typo. Title VI is a section of the Civil Rights Act of 1964!
(Am I being overly fussy/nitpicky to suggest it's seriously no good to promote a slippage between the Civil Rights Act itself and how it got later interpreted by this guy under the W. Bush and Trump administrations? I'm not suggesting you're doing this on purpose, but I wonder about what media/info sources could have led to this misconception.)
posted by nobody at 6:24 AM on March 23 [2 favorites]
Candace Owens gets weirder:'“If you investigate anything Israel will start to come up,” said Owens, who made the unsubstantiated claim that Brigette Macron, the wife of French Prime Minister Emmanuel Macron, was born a male, accusing Israel of being involved with that as well."' [link] [more]
I am unclear on how criticisms of Mossad, which is a pretty nasty organization (but not worsethan any other intelligence agency) constitutes antisemitism. I am not feigning ignorance here, but am actually ignorant.
posted by mecran01 at 7:04 AM on March 23 [3 favorites]
I am unclear on how criticisms of Mossad, which is a pretty nasty organization (but not worsethan any other intelligence agency) constitutes antisemitism. I am not feigning ignorance here, but am actually ignorant.
posted by mecran01 at 7:04 AM on March 23 [3 favorites]
What was Violet Blue's intention with this thread? Are we supposed to be surprised when the leopards start eating the faces of the Jews who went all-in on MAGA? Are we supposed to note, specifically, that Lonsdale is Jewish like that's significant? Is the Rogan and Von trajectory, and others like them, toward antisemitism a surprising heel turn?
I think we've been aware of this stuff, no? I think complicity in genocide is a pretty fucking big canary in a coalmine, hmm what can this all possibly mean. Violet Blue, it's like the discussion of antisemitism in this thread needs to adhere to a script, and that's not helpful imo.
posted by ginger.beef at 7:27 AM on March 23 [9 favorites]
I think we've been aware of this stuff, no? I think complicity in genocide is a pretty fucking big canary in a coalmine, hmm what can this all possibly mean. Violet Blue, it's like the discussion of antisemitism in this thread needs to adhere to a script, and that's not helpful imo.
posted by ginger.beef at 7:27 AM on March 23 [9 favorites]
Minor point: the title should be corrected because when I saw it, I thought, "Oh, no, not Lindsey Vonn, too".
posted by Halloween Jack at 8:12 AM on March 23 [1 favorite]
posted by Halloween Jack at 8:12 AM on March 23 [1 favorite]
Seems relevant, and just out today: (Guardian) The new definition of antisemitism is transforming America – and serving a Christian nationalist plan by Itamar Mann and Lihi Yona
...The charge of antisemitism shifts the focus from Israel’s actions to the credibility of its critics. While combating antisemitism is imperative, the sweeping application of this label to pro-Palestinian voices endangers dissenting voices and erodes free expression, making open debate on one of the world’s most enduring conflicts increasingly difficult.
the star of david separating from the flag of israel
But that’s not the only problem with the new definition of antisemitism. By legally enshrining support for Israel as a defining characteristic of Jewish identity, the new definition of antisemitism imposes a straitjacket of Zionist identity on American Jews, in effect telling them that certain political positions are incompatible with being authentically Jewish. But, precisely because Jewish identity has always also been political, we should not be delegitimizing those whose Jewish identity entails a criticism or even outright rejection of ethno-national Judaism.
(...) The increasingly aggressive use of “antisemitism” as a political instrument was never about Jewish safety. It has always been about power: consolidating a political order that merges religion, nationalism and authoritarianism under the veneer of minority protection.
The ease with which progressive Jews have been thrown under the bus makes this painfully clear. Their erasure is not a side effect – it is the mechanism through which this agenda advances. Because once Jewish identity is defined from above – even with the active participation of some Jews – any Jew who resists can be disqualified and delegitimized. This was true for de Haan, and it is true today.
The threat is immediate and ongoing. Already, whole sectors of society – educators, students, artists, political activists and immigrants – are paying the price. And if this continues, we can expect the same logic to be applied across a wider range of policies: tightening ideological control, redefining constitutional norms and re-engineering public institutions in the image of an authoritarian state.
posted by cendawanita at 8:14 AM on March 23 [16 favorites]
...The charge of antisemitism shifts the focus from Israel’s actions to the credibility of its critics. While combating antisemitism is imperative, the sweeping application of this label to pro-Palestinian voices endangers dissenting voices and erodes free expression, making open debate on one of the world’s most enduring conflicts increasingly difficult.
the star of david separating from the flag of israel
But that’s not the only problem with the new definition of antisemitism. By legally enshrining support for Israel as a defining characteristic of Jewish identity, the new definition of antisemitism imposes a straitjacket of Zionist identity on American Jews, in effect telling them that certain political positions are incompatible with being authentically Jewish. But, precisely because Jewish identity has always also been political, we should not be delegitimizing those whose Jewish identity entails a criticism or even outright rejection of ethno-national Judaism.
(...) The increasingly aggressive use of “antisemitism” as a political instrument was never about Jewish safety. It has always been about power: consolidating a political order that merges religion, nationalism and authoritarianism under the veneer of minority protection.
The ease with which progressive Jews have been thrown under the bus makes this painfully clear. Their erasure is not a side effect – it is the mechanism through which this agenda advances. Because once Jewish identity is defined from above – even with the active participation of some Jews – any Jew who resists can be disqualified and delegitimized. This was true for de Haan, and it is true today.
The threat is immediate and ongoing. Already, whole sectors of society – educators, students, artists, political activists and immigrants – are paying the price. And if this continues, we can expect the same logic to be applied across a wider range of policies: tightening ideological control, redefining constitutional norms and re-engineering public institutions in the image of an authoritarian state.
posted by cendawanita at 8:14 AM on March 23 [16 favorites]
Katie Halper, Max Blumenthal
A big no on those two. Katie and Max's path to Palestine support leads directly though Putin, with all the corresponding Russian empire apologia.
But, a big yes on the theme of your comment, and a big, big yes on JVP. Their differentiation is a hard and thorny path to take.
posted by CynicalKnight at 8:21 AM on March 23 [2 favorites]
A big no on those two. Katie and Max's path to Palestine support leads directly though Putin, with all the corresponding Russian empire apologia.
But, a big yes on the theme of your comment, and a big, big yes on JVP. Their differentiation is a hard and thorny path to take.
posted by CynicalKnight at 8:21 AM on March 23 [2 favorites]
But there's this paradox now, of far-right political parties supporting the far-right Israeli government, while at the same time using anti-Semitic conspiracy theories to motivate their rank and file...
It's not a paradox if you interpret this as them being both strategic and pragmatic. By supporting the bloody expansion of Israeli empire, anti-semites imagine themselves correcting the obvious and profound moral outrage of a Holocaust they are unwilling to admit they admire, while making their enemy a loyal ally, as long as they're contained in their own space.
This same duality is at play with Trumps China tariffs versus his escalating anti-Taiwan rhetoric. He seeks to help China in a major way while punishing them in a minor way at the same time.
posted by CynicalKnight at 8:32 AM on March 23 [6 favorites]
It's not a paradox if you interpret this as them being both strategic and pragmatic. By supporting the bloody expansion of Israeli empire, anti-semites imagine themselves correcting the obvious and profound moral outrage of a Holocaust they are unwilling to admit they admire, while making their enemy a loyal ally, as long as they're contained in their own space.
This same duality is at play with Trumps China tariffs versus his escalating anti-Taiwan rhetoric. He seeks to help China in a major way while punishing them in a minor way at the same time.
posted by CynicalKnight at 8:32 AM on March 23 [6 favorites]
“ It is disingenuous at best to discuss contemporary Jewish existence or antisemitism without including Palestine”
Really? so I cannot discuss a recent anti-Semitic attack on my American synagogue without talking about Palestine?
posted by haptic_avenger at 8:52 AM on March 23 [7 favorites]
Really? so I cannot discuss a recent anti-Semitic attack on my American synagogue without talking about Palestine?
posted by haptic_avenger at 8:52 AM on March 23 [7 favorites]
“ What was Violet Blue's intention with this thread? Are we supposed to be surprised when the leopards start eating the faces of the Jews who went all-in on MAGA?”
You really missed the point. Maybe go back and read the links.
posted by haptic_avenger at 8:54 AM on March 23 [2 favorites]
You really missed the point. Maybe go back and read the links.
posted by haptic_avenger at 8:54 AM on March 23 [2 favorites]
The post included reference to Columbia, and Marcus touts himself by saying, the New York Times has called him “The Man Who Helped Redefine Campus Anti-Semitism,” which from what I've read is correct. He was enormously influential to the creation of Title VI, and he legally represents plaintiffs in Title VI cases.
"redefining campus antisemitism" = "interpreting protests against Israel's genocide as antisemitic", which is utterly grotesque. And Title VI was created as part of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, as noted elsewhere.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 9:56 AM on March 23 [7 favorites]
"redefining campus antisemitism" = "interpreting protests against Israel's genocide as antisemitic", which is utterly grotesque. And Title VI was created as part of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, as noted elsewhere.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 9:56 AM on March 23 [7 favorites]
Right the Title VI stuff is about targeting critics of Israel under Title VI, not actually creating it.
Are we supposed to note, specifically, that Lonsdale is Jewish like that's significant?
I think maybe it was “in case you can’t tell from his not very Jewish name” but I didn’t see any evidence that anyone was confused about that.
posted by atoxyl at 11:20 AM on March 23 [1 favorite]
Are we supposed to note, specifically, that Lonsdale is Jewish like that's significant?
I think maybe it was “in case you can’t tell from his not very Jewish name” but I didn’t see any evidence that anyone was confused about that.
posted by atoxyl at 11:20 AM on March 23 [1 favorite]
For the record, I read the title of the post and followed some, not all, links. Notwithstanding haptic avenger's opinion, a discussion of antisemitism in these times can hardly be compartmentalized in the manner attempted here.
What I'm seeing is OP saying "you're not discussing antisemitism the way I want to discuss it" and last time I checked that's not how MeFi works
posted by ginger.beef at 11:32 AM on March 23 [7 favorites]
What I'm seeing is OP saying "you're not discussing antisemitism the way I want to discuss it" and last time I checked that's not how MeFi works
posted by ginger.beef at 11:32 AM on March 23 [7 favorites]
It's not a paradox if you interpret this as them being both strategic and pragmatic. By supporting the bloody expansion of Israeli empire, anti-semites imagine themselves correcting the obvious and profound moral outrage of a Holocaust they are unwilling to admit they admire
No, they (right-wing USian Christian nationalist "Zionists") support Israel because of dispensationalist interpretations of the Revelation of St John and the belief that Israel has to exist so it can be destroyed in the End Times.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 12:25 PM on March 23 [4 favorites]
a discussion of antisemitism in these times can hardly be compartmentalized in the manner attempted here.
It's been my observation here that posts about anti-Palestinian and anti-Arab violence and discrimination have had comments removed or shouted down if those comments brought up the PLO, and Hamas, and acts of terrorism sponsored by an ethnically Arab nation. But you're saying it's impossible to discuss anti-Semitism in the U.S. without also talking about what Jewish-identifying groups have done. Is it your intention to have a double standard or is that accidental?
Does acknowledging attacks or intimidation on a minority require litigating the degree to which the member of that minority should be held responsible? If this post were about anti-African discrimination in the U.S., would you bring up Darfur and Congo and Rwanda? If it were a post about anti-Latinx violence, would bring up drug cartels, dictatorships and gang violence? Because Trump sure would!
There was an attack on my synagogue last week.
But the ADL--
Please understand, the same tactics of intimidation and fear that you're sickened at seeing used by Trumpists have been deployed stochastically against American Jews for over a century.
But the bombings by Israel--
--Only affect what happens here if Americans permit them to. Are you setting a rule where religions/ethnicities that have some political power can't experience discrimination, or only if sub-groups use that power in ways you agree with before you acknowledge suffering? Would you allow that rule to be applied to other groups?
But genocide--
--Is happening in Gaza, as it is in the Ukraine, and Darfur and Myanmar and that's just what's happening right this minute. What the links in the OP are saying is that the oldest anti-Semitic canards about world domination and secret global control are being repackaged and redistributed nationally. They are being swallowed even by well-meaning people who can't or won't differentiate between the Israeli government, the Israeli citizens, and worldwide Judaism. Are you one of those people? Is your empathy conditional? Do you believe American Jews deserve some anti-Semitism, as some kind of karmic payback?
posted by The Pluto Gangsta at 1:05 PM on March 23 [7 favorites]
It's been my observation here that posts about anti-Palestinian and anti-Arab violence and discrimination have had comments removed or shouted down if those comments brought up the PLO, and Hamas, and acts of terrorism sponsored by an ethnically Arab nation. But you're saying it's impossible to discuss anti-Semitism in the U.S. without also talking about what Jewish-identifying groups have done. Is it your intention to have a double standard or is that accidental?
Does acknowledging attacks or intimidation on a minority require litigating the degree to which the member of that minority should be held responsible? If this post were about anti-African discrimination in the U.S., would you bring up Darfur and Congo and Rwanda? If it were a post about anti-Latinx violence, would bring up drug cartels, dictatorships and gang violence? Because Trump sure would!
There was an attack on my synagogue last week.
But the ADL--
Please understand, the same tactics of intimidation and fear that you're sickened at seeing used by Trumpists have been deployed stochastically against American Jews for over a century.
But the bombings by Israel--
--Only affect what happens here if Americans permit them to. Are you setting a rule where religions/ethnicities that have some political power can't experience discrimination, or only if sub-groups use that power in ways you agree with before you acknowledge suffering? Would you allow that rule to be applied to other groups?
But genocide--
--Is happening in Gaza, as it is in the Ukraine, and Darfur and Myanmar and that's just what's happening right this minute. What the links in the OP are saying is that the oldest anti-Semitic canards about world domination and secret global control are being repackaged and redistributed nationally. They are being swallowed even by well-meaning people who can't or won't differentiate between the Israeli government, the Israeli citizens, and worldwide Judaism. Are you one of those people? Is your empathy conditional? Do you believe American Jews deserve some anti-Semitism, as some kind of karmic payback?
posted by The Pluto Gangsta at 1:05 PM on March 23 [7 favorites]
But you're saying it's impossible to discuss anti-Semitism in the U.S. without also talking about what Jewish-identifying groups have done.
In this one specific case, yes. Because the point of bringing up the ADL's actions is to discuss how, by conflating antizionism with antisemitism, they have directly and deleteriously impacted combating antisemitism in the US. This is not about "litigating the degree to which the member of that minority should be held responsible", but how this one organization ostensibly created with the mission of combating the vile lies fueling antisemitism has proceeded to undercut that very mission by attacking actual debate over the conduct of the state of Israel as such.
Again, this should bother you! The conflation of legitimate criticism of Zionism with antisemitism weakens the fight against the latter, by co-opting it to try to shut down the former. Also, this point of yours:
posted by NoxAeternum at 1:55 PM on March 23 [12 favorites]
In this one specific case, yes. Because the point of bringing up the ADL's actions is to discuss how, by conflating antizionism with antisemitism, they have directly and deleteriously impacted combating antisemitism in the US. This is not about "litigating the degree to which the member of that minority should be held responsible", but how this one organization ostensibly created with the mission of combating the vile lies fueling antisemitism has proceeded to undercut that very mission by attacking actual debate over the conduct of the state of Israel as such.
Again, this should bother you! The conflation of legitimate criticism of Zionism with antisemitism weakens the fight against the latter, by co-opting it to try to shut down the former. Also, this point of yours:
They are being swallowed even by well-meaning people who can't or won't differentiate between the Israeli government, the Israeli citizens, and worldwide Judaism.That conflation has literally been ADL policy for years! Which is why people are so troubled by it!
posted by NoxAeternum at 1:55 PM on March 23 [12 favorites]
Really? so I cannot discuss a recent anti-Semitic attack on my American synagogue without talking about Palestine?
No one said what you cannot do, but sure, you can interpret it that way if you want.
It's entirely possible that the attack on your American synagogue was antisemitic and that's terrible if so. I have no idea about your specific circumstances. But there are also actions against synagogues and other Jewish institutions by Jewish antizionist people who object to pro-Zionist mainstream Judaism and/or the zionism of that particular institution. So, yeah, I do think it's necessary to bring nuance and Palestine into the conversation, rather than broadly saying all attacks on Jewish institutions are antisemitic.
posted by wicked_sassy at 1:57 PM on March 23 [1 favorite]
No one said what you cannot do, but sure, you can interpret it that way if you want.
It's entirely possible that the attack on your American synagogue was antisemitic and that's terrible if so. I have no idea about your specific circumstances. But there are also actions against synagogues and other Jewish institutions by Jewish antizionist people who object to pro-Zionist mainstream Judaism and/or the zionism of that particular institution. So, yeah, I do think it's necessary to bring nuance and Palestine into the conversation, rather than broadly saying all attacks on Jewish institutions are antisemitic.
posted by wicked_sassy at 1:57 PM on March 23 [1 favorite]
The most absurd of those contradictions is the one around the conflation of Judaism itself with unwavering support for Israel.
This is a great example of how defenders of Israel's genocide use religion as a shield. Fundamentalist or even just right-wing types of all religions use religion as a shield; it's kind of their defining characteristic, and the most frustrating because it diffuses any discussion and debate about the real conflict.
Israel is a nation, a state. But it is (totally?) unique in which it is a state founded on colonization by a particular religious group, Jewish people from Europe, mostly. But in a broad sense Israel is no different from any other nation on Earth. You could pick random ones (Belize, South Korea, Zimbabwe, Belgium) and they all share with Israel that nationhood. If Belgium started committing genocide, it would be correct to criticize the state, namely the leadership of that state, for its actions. Yet to criticize Israel as a state brings out the shield of anti-semitism regardless.
As a non-Jew in a sense I feel uncomfortable criticizing Israel the state lest I be seen as anti-semitic; at least one person has told me as much when talking about this. It feels like the only "legitimate" voices are anti-Zionist Jews, who can avoid being labeled as anti-semitic (mostly).
posted by zardoz at 2:00 PM on March 23 [8 favorites]
This is a great example of how defenders of Israel's genocide use religion as a shield. Fundamentalist or even just right-wing types of all religions use religion as a shield; it's kind of their defining characteristic, and the most frustrating because it diffuses any discussion and debate about the real conflict.
Israel is a nation, a state. But it is (totally?) unique in which it is a state founded on colonization by a particular religious group, Jewish people from Europe, mostly. But in a broad sense Israel is no different from any other nation on Earth. You could pick random ones (Belize, South Korea, Zimbabwe, Belgium) and they all share with Israel that nationhood. If Belgium started committing genocide, it would be correct to criticize the state, namely the leadership of that state, for its actions. Yet to criticize Israel as a state brings out the shield of anti-semitism regardless.
As a non-Jew in a sense I feel uncomfortable criticizing Israel the state lest I be seen as anti-semitic; at least one person has told me as much when talking about this. It feels like the only "legitimate" voices are anti-Zionist Jews, who can avoid being labeled as anti-semitic (mostly).
posted by zardoz at 2:00 PM on March 23 [8 favorites]
It feels like the only "legitimate" voices are anti-Zionist Jews, who can avoid being labeled as anti-semitic (mostly).
They get labeled "self-hating" instead.
posted by NoxAeternum at 2:03 PM on March 23 [5 favorites]
They get labeled "self-hating" instead.
posted by NoxAeternum at 2:03 PM on March 23 [5 favorites]
Only affect what happens here if Americans permit them to
Someone clearly hasn't been paying attention.
well-meaning people who can't or won't differentiate between the Israeli government, the Israeli citizens, and worldwide Judaism
That would be "the ADL, Chuck Schumer, Ritchie Torres, et al.", the weaponisation of antisemitism by Zionists to stifle criticism of and protest against Israel committing genocide in Gaza by conflating Israel and Judaism is frankly disgusting; I haven't noticed the federal government with the active participation of multiple Democratic members of Congress moving to shut down criticisms of Myanmar or Sudan.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 2:06 PM on March 23 [4 favorites]
Someone clearly hasn't been paying attention.
well-meaning people who can't or won't differentiate between the Israeli government, the Israeli citizens, and worldwide Judaism
That would be "the ADL, Chuck Schumer, Ritchie Torres, et al.", the weaponisation of antisemitism by Zionists to stifle criticism of and protest against Israel committing genocide in Gaza by conflating Israel and Judaism is frankly disgusting; I haven't noticed the federal government with the active participation of multiple Democratic members of Congress moving to shut down criticisms of Myanmar or Sudan.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 2:06 PM on March 23 [4 favorites]
But you're saying it's impossible to discuss anti-Semitism in the U.S. without also talking about what Jewish-identifying groups have done.
That's not the meaning of the words I typed, I'm not sure how you arrived at this interpretation. Your comment is sprawling and not entirely coherent. I take issue when the OP polices the terms of engagement in "their" thread, and I don't think I'm out of line in this.
posted by ginger.beef at 2:36 PM on March 23 [2 favorites]
That's not the meaning of the words I typed, I'm not sure how you arrived at this interpretation. Your comment is sprawling and not entirely coherent. I take issue when the OP polices the terms of engagement in "their" thread, and I don't think I'm out of line in this.
posted by ginger.beef at 2:36 PM on March 23 [2 favorites]
Well, there has definitely been a measurable uptick in antisemitic actions and a probably less measurable but pretty obvious uptick in antisemitic rhetoric online and since that uptick started immediately following the Israeli response to the Oct 7 attacks it's not guaranteed that they're linked, but it does seem fairly likely.
But, the thing is, there was plenty of antisemitism around prior to Oct 7.
And I'm curious about the reach of Rogan's antisemitism and if there will be an uptick in antisemitism that coincides with it as well. He's got a large audience, but I'm going to bet most of them are already pretty antisemitic.
As Ian Danskin observed, there are very few single issue bigots. Find a random homophobic bigot and it's incredibly likely that they will also be antisemitic. And racist, misogynist, transphobic, Islamophobic, sinophobic, and the list goes on. It's not guaranteed, but the odds are very good.
This does not mean I'm saying it's irrelevant if Joe Rogan has open antisemitic lies on his program, just that I strongly suspect anyone who listens to Rogan is either already antisemitic to some degree, or that they are at the least receptive to antisemitism. Basically that Rogan is not turning previously anti-antisemitic people into antisemites but that he's amplifying the antisemitism already present in his audience. Which is likely a lot more dangerous.
I strongly suspect the biggest driver of increased antisemitic actions and rhetoric is not newly antisemitic people, but pre-existing antisemites becoming more radicalized and less restrained in expressing their antisemitism.
As an example of what I mean, I knew a person who back in the early 2000's was what you might think of as a causal, unconscious, unthinking antisemite. She routinely referred to bargaining as "Jewing" for example. I found her on social media not too long ago and she was full bore MAGA conspiracy and had a very definite antisemitic thread in her rants. She's a chemtrail believer and says the Rothchilds are responsible, for example. This did not happen in a vacuum.
The American right has harbored and encouraged antisemitism for decades, Rogan is a symptom of that antisemitism growing until it burst out of hiding.
And... I really, really, fucking hate to say it, but the American Left hasn't been what you'd call really vigorous about trying to get rid of antisemitism in its ranks. It seems to tie into the leftists who rant about "idpol" more than other groups, the usual brosocialist types who insist that if you're talking about anything but class you're subverting the movement.
I have no idea if the ADL ever have any particular success at reducing antisemitism, I do know that for a long time I used their database of hate groups (not exclusive to antisemitic groups) and hate symbols. Since they turned hard right and started becoming more a pro-Israel group than an antisemitic group I've not trusted their data. I don't know if they had a positive impact before, but I'm sure that if they did have a positive impact before it's probably severely reduced if not gone entirely now.
Just as Israel is to one extent or another inextricable from Judaism, so to is Israel to some extent or other inextricable from antisemitism. Even (or especially perhaps) in a hypothetical sense as it was by necessity during the period before the founding of modern Israel and as it may continue to exist in some Jewish minds.
Which is why, while I do think it's wrong to go straight to I/P in every single talk about antisemitism, I can see why it happens. Israel is important to (most) Jews in a religious/cultural sense even if they don't like the government of the modern nation, or don't like Israel at all.
What bothers me is why so many people seem receptive to antisemitism. On the face of it, the concept is absurd. Judaism may well be the single most oppressed religion in all history, and historically Jews were legally discriminated against, forbidden from certain types of property ownership, murdered, subjected to pogroms, had their religion officially banned, and SOMEHOW the antisemites want us to think that Jews are, and have been, secretly running the world?
It's preposterous and unbelievable on the face of it. And yet, it is a widespread and a major force in geopolitics.
I don't know why Jews are the stand in for any always chaotic evil group a conspiracy theorist requires to justify the belief that the conspiracy exists, but I do know that when you dig deep enough into any conspiracy theory antisemitism lurks at the core. Heck, that may be a metric for distinguishing genuine conspiracies from conspiracy theory BS: if it doesn't, at the very root of everything, blame Jews then it might actually be true. [1]
The spread of conspiracyism, anti-scienceism, and generally any movement that denies reality is going to have antisemitism in there somewhere. It's inevitable.
Joe Rogan was, whether deliberately or not, spreading antisemitism every time he spread a conspiracy theory. Anyone who spreads conspiracy theories is ultimately spreading antisemitism. So in a sense, this is nothing new for him. But in another sense it's new and extremely worrying because he's making it more open. He's normalizing antisemitism for his audience, throwing away the dog whistle to just openly say it. He's priming his audience to accept antisemitism, or at least accept antisemitism as a valid point of view and a valid consideration when debating things.
Like with most social ills, antisemitism must be confronted head on with anti-antisemitism (is there a better term? That's a really awkward phrase) just as misogyny must be confronted head on with feminism, racism confronted head on with antiracism, transphobia confronted head on with anti-transphobia, etc.
But, also, I think any successful effort to reduce the spread and influence of conspiracy thinking will at least help a little with all of the bigotry in the USA. It's not sufficient, but it's likely necessary.
[1] On a tangent, this does make me wonder: who do Jewish conspiracy theorists use as their always chaotic evil irrationally malicious group to be responsible for the conspiracy?
posted by sotonohito at 2:53 PM on March 23 [7 favorites]
But, the thing is, there was plenty of antisemitism around prior to Oct 7.
And I'm curious about the reach of Rogan's antisemitism and if there will be an uptick in antisemitism that coincides with it as well. He's got a large audience, but I'm going to bet most of them are already pretty antisemitic.
As Ian Danskin observed, there are very few single issue bigots. Find a random homophobic bigot and it's incredibly likely that they will also be antisemitic. And racist, misogynist, transphobic, Islamophobic, sinophobic, and the list goes on. It's not guaranteed, but the odds are very good.
This does not mean I'm saying it's irrelevant if Joe Rogan has open antisemitic lies on his program, just that I strongly suspect anyone who listens to Rogan is either already antisemitic to some degree, or that they are at the least receptive to antisemitism. Basically that Rogan is not turning previously anti-antisemitic people into antisemites but that he's amplifying the antisemitism already present in his audience. Which is likely a lot more dangerous.
I strongly suspect the biggest driver of increased antisemitic actions and rhetoric is not newly antisemitic people, but pre-existing antisemites becoming more radicalized and less restrained in expressing their antisemitism.
As an example of what I mean, I knew a person who back in the early 2000's was what you might think of as a causal, unconscious, unthinking antisemite. She routinely referred to bargaining as "Jewing" for example. I found her on social media not too long ago and she was full bore MAGA conspiracy and had a very definite antisemitic thread in her rants. She's a chemtrail believer and says the Rothchilds are responsible, for example. This did not happen in a vacuum.
The American right has harbored and encouraged antisemitism for decades, Rogan is a symptom of that antisemitism growing until it burst out of hiding.
And... I really, really, fucking hate to say it, but the American Left hasn't been what you'd call really vigorous about trying to get rid of antisemitism in its ranks. It seems to tie into the leftists who rant about "idpol" more than other groups, the usual brosocialist types who insist that if you're talking about anything but class you're subverting the movement.
I have no idea if the ADL ever have any particular success at reducing antisemitism, I do know that for a long time I used their database of hate groups (not exclusive to antisemitic groups) and hate symbols. Since they turned hard right and started becoming more a pro-Israel group than an antisemitic group I've not trusted their data. I don't know if they had a positive impact before, but I'm sure that if they did have a positive impact before it's probably severely reduced if not gone entirely now.
Just as Israel is to one extent or another inextricable from Judaism, so to is Israel to some extent or other inextricable from antisemitism. Even (or especially perhaps) in a hypothetical sense as it was by necessity during the period before the founding of modern Israel and as it may continue to exist in some Jewish minds.
Which is why, while I do think it's wrong to go straight to I/P in every single talk about antisemitism, I can see why it happens. Israel is important to (most) Jews in a religious/cultural sense even if they don't like the government of the modern nation, or don't like Israel at all.
What bothers me is why so many people seem receptive to antisemitism. On the face of it, the concept is absurd. Judaism may well be the single most oppressed religion in all history, and historically Jews were legally discriminated against, forbidden from certain types of property ownership, murdered, subjected to pogroms, had their religion officially banned, and SOMEHOW the antisemites want us to think that Jews are, and have been, secretly running the world?
It's preposterous and unbelievable on the face of it. And yet, it is a widespread and a major force in geopolitics.
I don't know why Jews are the stand in for any always chaotic evil group a conspiracy theorist requires to justify the belief that the conspiracy exists, but I do know that when you dig deep enough into any conspiracy theory antisemitism lurks at the core. Heck, that may be a metric for distinguishing genuine conspiracies from conspiracy theory BS: if it doesn't, at the very root of everything, blame Jews then it might actually be true. [1]
The spread of conspiracyism, anti-scienceism, and generally any movement that denies reality is going to have antisemitism in there somewhere. It's inevitable.
Joe Rogan was, whether deliberately or not, spreading antisemitism every time he spread a conspiracy theory. Anyone who spreads conspiracy theories is ultimately spreading antisemitism. So in a sense, this is nothing new for him. But in another sense it's new and extremely worrying because he's making it more open. He's normalizing antisemitism for his audience, throwing away the dog whistle to just openly say it. He's priming his audience to accept antisemitism, or at least accept antisemitism as a valid point of view and a valid consideration when debating things.
Like with most social ills, antisemitism must be confronted head on with anti-antisemitism (is there a better term? That's a really awkward phrase) just as misogyny must be confronted head on with feminism, racism confronted head on with antiracism, transphobia confronted head on with anti-transphobia, etc.
But, also, I think any successful effort to reduce the spread and influence of conspiracy thinking will at least help a little with all of the bigotry in the USA. It's not sufficient, but it's likely necessary.
[1] On a tangent, this does make me wonder: who do Jewish conspiracy theorists use as their always chaotic evil irrationally malicious group to be responsible for the conspiracy?
posted by sotonohito at 2:53 PM on March 23 [7 favorites]
zardoz If Belgium started committing genocide
It's a side note, but there's no if there. From 1864 to 1909 King Leopold of Belgium personally owned the Congo and very definitely committed genocide there as part of his maximally evil approach to colonialism. Statistics are hard to find, since it was mostly kept secret and they weren't exactly doing a proper census and keeping track of all the Congolese people they murdered, but they killed a significant percentage of the population.
posted by sotonohito at 2:56 PM on March 23 [9 favorites]
It's a side note, but there's no if there. From 1864 to 1909 King Leopold of Belgium personally owned the Congo and very definitely committed genocide there as part of his maximally evil approach to colonialism. Statistics are hard to find, since it was mostly kept secret and they weren't exactly doing a proper census and keeping track of all the Congolese people they murdered, but they killed a significant percentage of the population.
posted by sotonohito at 2:56 PM on March 23 [9 favorites]
What bothers me is why so many people seem receptive to antisemitism.
This is an enduring question. Are there any historic parallels? I'm open to reading recommendations. In modern times, it's like The Protocols of the Elders of Zion never dissipated under the light of truth and education, the lies and hatred just persist.
posted by ginger.beef at 3:05 PM on March 23 [1 favorite]
This is an enduring question. Are there any historic parallels? I'm open to reading recommendations. In modern times, it's like The Protocols of the Elders of Zion never dissipated under the light of truth and education, the lies and hatred just persist.
posted by ginger.beef at 3:05 PM on March 23 [1 favorite]
I guess China & India can be a very salient examples, as China's dominance doesn't excuse the amount of hate crimes American East Asians have had to endure, but the space to be critical is a lot more available on account that it's ideologically not a Western ally. It's a lot more clear because China also does play at the same "we want to represent diaspora" the way India does (but only one as a diaspora identification system that allows land purchases etc and it's not China iirc?), but India also moves towards fascism AND retains casteist politics AND significant part of the diaspora provides cover for those politics via idpol language and due to its position and value as an ally, you don't hear much about. And both countries victimize key portions of its Muslim demographic.
posted by cendawanita at 3:16 PM on March 23 [5 favorites]
posted by cendawanita at 3:16 PM on March 23 [5 favorites]
I was going to offer KSA as well, in terms of parity as a West Asian ally and in some ways a proxy while it styles itself as a representative of a religious community due to historical reasons, but it's in my observation not a social death to be critical of the country to the point that you lose your non-govt jobs even as you can flirt with as much Islamophobia as you like, due to its normalization from the elite especially political and bureaucratic. UAE doesn't make any demographic leadership claims but also has the same amount of no-energy when it comes to elite censure.
posted by cendawanita at 3:22 PM on March 23 [3 favorites]
posted by cendawanita at 3:22 PM on March 23 [3 favorites]
"What bothers me is why so many people seem receptive to antisemitism."
Deep roots. Judaism stands in opposition to both Christianity and Islam, Jews' refusal to convert is a standing rebuke to the claims of both those religions. And even before Christianity became the religion of the Roman empire there was a healthy dose of anti-Jewish sentiment in classical literature. So to a greater or lesser degree it's baked into all cultures that have a Christian or Muslim history or strong influences via colonisation/empire. And as a small and relatively powerless people it's not like we have had an equal power to combat these ideas over time (if there even is such a thing as successfully combatting deep cultural traditions). And many times attempts to combat conspiracy theory only feed the conspiracy theory.
Beyond that, antisemitism mutates according to the demands of the day. For Romans, Jews are those annoying people who won't assimilate and accept your gods as of equal standing with theirs. The Jews of Medina failed to be persuaded by the Prophet and deserved odium. The Jews of Western Europe were a handy local target for those who couldn't crusade and a threat to the authority of the church. Later, antisemitism becomes a kind of anti-capitalism as traditional ways of life fall to the rise of trade and markets. Then it's about nationalism, and who can tolerate a nation within the nation, or define an identity that will include Jews as well? And then we get scientific racism. The themes of antisemitism continue to change (but the older ones persist as new ones get developed).
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 3:51 PM on March 23 [9 favorites]
Deep roots. Judaism stands in opposition to both Christianity and Islam, Jews' refusal to convert is a standing rebuke to the claims of both those religions. And even before Christianity became the religion of the Roman empire there was a healthy dose of anti-Jewish sentiment in classical literature. So to a greater or lesser degree it's baked into all cultures that have a Christian or Muslim history or strong influences via colonisation/empire. And as a small and relatively powerless people it's not like we have had an equal power to combat these ideas over time (if there even is such a thing as successfully combatting deep cultural traditions). And many times attempts to combat conspiracy theory only feed the conspiracy theory.
Beyond that, antisemitism mutates according to the demands of the day. For Romans, Jews are those annoying people who won't assimilate and accept your gods as of equal standing with theirs. The Jews of Medina failed to be persuaded by the Prophet and deserved odium. The Jews of Western Europe were a handy local target for those who couldn't crusade and a threat to the authority of the church. Later, antisemitism becomes a kind of anti-capitalism as traditional ways of life fall to the rise of trade and markets. Then it's about nationalism, and who can tolerate a nation within the nation, or define an identity that will include Jews as well? And then we get scientific racism. The themes of antisemitism continue to change (but the older ones persist as new ones get developed).
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 3:51 PM on March 23 [9 favorites]
It's entirely possible that the attack on your American synagogue was antisemitic and that's terrible if so. I have no idea about your specific circumstances.
Point of clarification: an attack against a synagogue is always antisemitic. It's almost never appropriate to vandalize a place of worship, or to threaten or harm its members for participating in worship. There are, however, many instances where it is reasonable to nonviolently protest a place of worship, such as when a synagogue is acting as a real-estate expo for stolen homes, and those protests are definitely not eo ipso antisemitic. (Some folks, of course, will also characterize those nonviolent protests as "attacks". But that's a mischaracterization.)
posted by adrienneleigh at 4:04 PM on March 23 [14 favorites]
Point of clarification: an attack against a synagogue is always antisemitic. It's almost never appropriate to vandalize a place of worship, or to threaten or harm its members for participating in worship. There are, however, many instances where it is reasonable to nonviolently protest a place of worship, such as when a synagogue is acting as a real-estate expo for stolen homes, and those protests are definitely not eo ipso antisemitic. (Some folks, of course, will also characterize those nonviolent protests as "attacks". But that's a mischaracterization.)
posted by adrienneleigh at 4:04 PM on March 23 [14 favorites]
The federal government provides money to secure sites at risk of faith-based attacks. From Sen. Chuck Schumer's website: If you don't click through, it's worth saying the following is written in very big letters:
Here's the Official Announcement about the City and State's Security Plans
In preparation for the Jewish High Holidays (Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur) in NYC 2025, the NYPD and Governor Hochul have announced enhanced security measures, including increased patrols, surveillance, and a visible police presence around synagogues and other sensitive locations, as well as at critical infrastructure hubs.
Here's a more detailed breakdown:
Enhanced Security Measures:
Increased Patrols: The NYPD will be increasing its presence around synagogues and other sensitive locations, with uniformed officers on patrol.
The security measures are specifically focused on protecting the Jewish community during the High Holy Days.
Jewish leaders have joined Adams and police officials in expressing their concerns and supporting the enhanced security efforts.
Context:
The security measures are being implemented in response to the heightened threat environment since the October 7, 2023, terror attack in Israel.
The NYPD has been working to address a 16% increase in reported hate crimes so far this year, compared to the same point last year.
The NYPD's counterterrorism operation will be monitoring and investigating potential threats.
Beyond the Holidays:
Officials say security protocols will remain in effect beyond the holidays as the NYPD continues to monitor potential threats.
Other Measures:
The city respects and protects people's right to peaceful protest, but there will be a zero-tolerance for those who violate the law.
The NYPD is monitoring chatter online, looking for any kind of potential threat.
posted by Violet Blue at 4:28 PM on March 23
227 ORGANIZATIONS ACROSS NEW YORK CITY AND LONG ISLAND TO BOOST SECURITY & SAFETY AT SYNAGOGUES, MOSQUES, CHURCHES & OTHER NONPROFITS; MONEY WILL PAY FOR SECURITY GUARDS, CAMS, FENCING & MORE.For the Jewish high holidays in Manhattan this year, not only did the City and State provide all of the following, but they also interrupted regularly scheduled programming — when most people were likely to be attending a synagogue — for a two- or three-hour press conference by police and city leadership on the ways they were keeping worshippers safe. From time to time throughout the broadcast, the cameras would cut to the front door of a major Manhattan synagogue where a couple of large men were standing with what looked to be submachine guns.
Here's the Official Announcement about the City and State's Security Plans
In preparation for the Jewish High Holidays (Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur) in NYC 2025, the NYPD and Governor Hochul have announced enhanced security measures, including increased patrols, surveillance, and a visible police presence around synagogues and other sensitive locations, as well as at critical infrastructure hubs.
Here's a more detailed breakdown:
Enhanced Security Measures:
Increased Patrols: The NYPD will be increasing its presence around synagogues and other sensitive locations, with uniformed officers on patrol.
- Surveillance: The city's digital surveillance network, including cameras and license plate readers, will be utilized.
- Visible Security: A visible police presence will be maintained throughout the city, including at critical infrastructure hubs like major transit centers.
- State Police Involvement: Governor Hochul has directed the New York State Police to increase patrols at at-risk locations across the state.
- Joint Operations Center: The NYPD's Joint Operations Center will remain open through Yom Kippur to facilitate real-time information sharing and resource deployment.
- Counterterrorism Operation: The NYPD's counterterrorism operation will be monitoring and investigating potential threats.
- Heavy Weapons Teams: NYPD teams with heavy weapons will be deployed.
- K-9 Sweeps: K-9 sweeps of sensitive areas will be conducted.
The security measures are specifically focused on protecting the Jewish community during the High Holy Days.
Jewish leaders have joined Adams and police officials in expressing their concerns and supporting the enhanced security efforts.
Context:
The security measures are being implemented in response to the heightened threat environment since the October 7, 2023, terror attack in Israel.
The NYPD has been working to address a 16% increase in reported hate crimes so far this year, compared to the same point last year.
The NYPD's counterterrorism operation will be monitoring and investigating potential threats.
Beyond the Holidays:
Officials say security protocols will remain in effect beyond the holidays as the NYPD continues to monitor potential threats.
Other Measures:
The city respects and protects people's right to peaceful protest, but there will be a zero-tolerance for those who violate the law.
The NYPD is monitoring chatter online, looking for any kind of potential threat.
posted by Violet Blue at 4:28 PM on March 23
No, they (right-wing USian Christian nationalist "Zionists") support Israel because of dispensationalist interpretations of the Revelation of St John and the belief that Israel has to exist so it can be destroyed in the End Times.
This is a thing but I am pretty sure the much bigger thing is just shared hatred of Muslims.
posted by atoxyl at 4:31 PM on March 23 [6 favorites]
This is a thing but I am pretty sure the much bigger thing is just shared hatred of Muslims.
posted by atoxyl at 4:31 PM on March 23 [6 favorites]
I guess people of European cultural heritage kinda needs to learn by genociding a demographic first before respecting them only enough that they can be harmed in more passive liberal ways (enslaved people inc the ones from who the word slave comes from; indigenous people; Jewish people), so I guess I'll start the countdown for which Muslim-majority country will win the special "I'm Sorry" trophy in 40 years time, if there's still a Western hegemony.
posted by cendawanita at 4:50 PM on March 23 [7 favorites]
posted by cendawanita at 4:50 PM on March 23 [7 favorites]
I'm reading the security measures listed by Violet Blue and is it mask off antisemitism to point out the disparity: protest genocide of one group and you might get disappeared, while another group gets the security theatre platinum plan, and this disparity will ultimately harm everyone who is not a specific type of white Christian male?
posted by ginger.beef at 6:26 PM on March 23 [2 favorites]
posted by ginger.beef at 6:26 PM on March 23 [2 favorites]
Ginger.beef: in little old New Zealand we're getting bomb threats and vandalism and arson at Jewish sites. I have to assume it's worse elsewhere. I don't regard this as theatre. I have security responsibilities at my local shul and the sense of threat is real. The fact that most supporters of Palestinians would be horrified by crimes of violence doesn't change that we're seeing more incidents and more threats.
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 6:51 PM on March 23 [5 favorites]
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 6:51 PM on March 23 [5 favorites]
I take your point, IAJS
I am speaking to the disparity in terms of the way the state performs power
The decisions that result in that display are very much concerned with theatre. There is what happens at the protest, or outside the temple, and there is the media coverage and projection to ensure everyone gets the message
It should concern all of us, anytime the disparity is so explicit
posted by ginger.beef at 7:09 PM on March 23 [3 favorites]
I am speaking to the disparity in terms of the way the state performs power
The decisions that result in that display are very much concerned with theatre. There is what happens at the protest, or outside the temple, and there is the media coverage and projection to ensure everyone gets the message
It should concern all of us, anytime the disparity is so explicit
posted by ginger.beef at 7:09 PM on March 23 [3 favorites]
I believe everyone should be protected from violence, and that includes the violence of armed fascist thugs with official state authority deciding to crack their heads because they stood outside with a sign.
posted by adrienneleigh at 7:17 PM on March 23 [3 favorites]
posted by adrienneleigh at 7:17 PM on March 23 [3 favorites]
while I do think it's wrong to go straight to I/P in every single talk about antisemitism, I can see why it happens
Look, I oppose antisemitism, but you absolutely cannot talk about antisemitism right now without also talking about the fact that the Trump administration is disappearing immigrants in the name of antisemitism at the direction and often request of the Zionist right. The Zionist contingent at my law school has directly requested that ICE go after pro-Palestinian protesters, and has called the Jewish Voices for Peace "not real Jews" and tried to get them banned from campus under the guise of them being antisemitic.
You cannot talk about antisemitism right now without talking about the MAGA/ADL alliance, and how the ADL has been encouraging Jews to buy stock in Tesla to "show support for Elon Musk." Is it fair to place that on all Jews? Absolutely not. But I think it's fair to say that this current situation has exposed the deep political divides among Jewish Americans, and exposed the hope of a unified "never again" response as a lie.
posted by FutureExpatCorb at 11:24 PM on March 23 [23 favorites]
Look, I oppose antisemitism, but you absolutely cannot talk about antisemitism right now without also talking about the fact that the Trump administration is disappearing immigrants in the name of antisemitism at the direction and often request of the Zionist right. The Zionist contingent at my law school has directly requested that ICE go after pro-Palestinian protesters, and has called the Jewish Voices for Peace "not real Jews" and tried to get them banned from campus under the guise of them being antisemitic.
You cannot talk about antisemitism right now without talking about the MAGA/ADL alliance, and how the ADL has been encouraging Jews to buy stock in Tesla to "show support for Elon Musk." Is it fair to place that on all Jews? Absolutely not. But I think it's fair to say that this current situation has exposed the deep political divides among Jewish Americans, and exposed the hope of a unified "never again" response as a lie.
posted by FutureExpatCorb at 11:24 PM on March 23 [23 favorites]
the hope of a unified "never again" response
In order to have a unified "never again" response, there needs to exist a unified "never again" meaning.
It's patently, blindingly, glaringly obvious to me that "never again" simply cannot be sustained without a world order dedicated to never again for anybody. But I am not Jewish, so I was actually shocked when I learned some decades ago that one particularly muscle-flexing strand of Zionism thinks all it means is never again to us and has convinced itself that preserving a Jewish homeland, preferably one with a reliable superpower for an ally, is enough to guarantee that.
Well, Ukrainians used to have a homeland with a presumed-reliable superpower for an ally as well. How's that been working out for them lately?
How does this particular Zionist contingent think things will work out for Israel and Jews in general if it keeps on doing everything within its power to help its allied superpower mutate into the Republic of Gilead? Do they honestly think that they can convince an ascendant US religious Right that the End Times could not in fact use a bit of accelerating?
Rogan is indeed hair-curling, but "We'll own it. And we'll do a job with it, too" should be hair-curling with chills.
posted by flabdablet at 12:17 AM on March 24 [6 favorites]
In order to have a unified "never again" response, there needs to exist a unified "never again" meaning.
It's patently, blindingly, glaringly obvious to me that "never again" simply cannot be sustained without a world order dedicated to never again for anybody. But I am not Jewish, so I was actually shocked when I learned some decades ago that one particularly muscle-flexing strand of Zionism thinks all it means is never again to us and has convinced itself that preserving a Jewish homeland, preferably one with a reliable superpower for an ally, is enough to guarantee that.
Well, Ukrainians used to have a homeland with a presumed-reliable superpower for an ally as well. How's that been working out for them lately?
How does this particular Zionist contingent think things will work out for Israel and Jews in general if it keeps on doing everything within its power to help its allied superpower mutate into the Republic of Gilead? Do they honestly think that they can convince an ascendant US religious Right that the End Times could not in fact use a bit of accelerating?
Rogan is indeed hair-curling, but "We'll own it. And we'll do a job with it, too" should be hair-curling with chills.
posted by flabdablet at 12:17 AM on March 24 [6 favorites]
Massacre at scale is either acceptable or it isn't. "Never again" requires the whole world to agree on and enforce "it isn't".
Given that Jewish communities the world over have been on the receiving end of so many massacres for all of recorded history, and given that antisemitism has never shown any inclination to disappear on its own and remains so prevalent amongst the wealthy and powerful, I still cannot wrap my head around the mental contortions being performed by those who have come down so firmly on the side of "it is".
posted by flabdablet at 12:40 AM on March 24 [2 favorites]
Given that Jewish communities the world over have been on the receiving end of so many massacres for all of recorded history, and given that antisemitism has never shown any inclination to disappear on its own and remains so prevalent amongst the wealthy and powerful, I still cannot wrap my head around the mental contortions being performed by those who have come down so firmly on the side of "it is".
posted by flabdablet at 12:40 AM on March 24 [2 favorites]
From Sen. Chuck Schumer's website
Well OK then. With a committed, selfless social justice warrior like Schumer in their corner, the New York religious community clearly has nothing to fear.
posted by flabdablet at 12:53 AM on March 24 [2 favorites]
Well OK then. With a committed, selfless social justice warrior like Schumer in their corner, the New York religious community clearly has nothing to fear.
posted by flabdablet at 12:53 AM on March 24 [2 favorites]
ginger.beef said, " This is an enduring question. Are there any historic parallels? I'm open to reading recommendations."
Let's look at /r/AskHistorians: Why is antisemitism so prevalant? I'll link to three replies in particular:
First, the stickied response at the top. This is a comment that automatically gets reposted in every question about antisemitism to help frame the discussion and quickly address common misconceptions:
Let's look at /r/AskHistorians: Why is antisemitism so prevalant? I'll link to three replies in particular:
First, the stickied response at the top. This is a comment that automatically gets reposted in every question about antisemitism to help frame the discussion and quickly address common misconceptions:
"The essential point that needs to be emphasized: the reason for anti-Jewish hatred and persecution has absolutely nothing to do with things Jewish men and women did, said or thought. Religious and racial persecution is not the fault of the victim but of the persecutor and antisemitism, like all prejudices, is inherently irrational. Framing history in a manner that places the reason for racial hatred with its victims is a technique frequently employed by racists to justify their hateful ideology.Second, the comment by /u/Soft-Rains that discusses how antisemitism developed:
The reasons why Jews specifically were persecuted, expelled, and discriminated against throughout mainly European history can vary greatly depending on time and place, but there are overarching historical factors that can help us understand the historical persecution of Jews - mainly that they often were the only minority available to scapegoat [emphasis mine]. [...]"
"Firstly anti-Judaism is arguably a more apt term for the time periods we are speaking of, racialized concepts are much more modern but for consistency sake I will just use the term anti-Semitism as a catchall.Finally, /r/moose_man goes into the history of anti-Judaism in particular:
Firstly these are very long periods of time over vast areas that we are talking about and anti-Semitism is much more localized or philosophical (deicide) before the 11th/12th century. Before this period violence against Jewish communities is much more sporadic and the Christian world was more comparable to the historical Muslim world, which remained relatively non-violent even after the Christian escalation. I do consider this divergence an interesting contrast, with the escalation of Jewish conspiracies and violent persecution in the Christian world a more recent phenomenon than many people think, violence did happen in the Muslim world (such as the 1066 massacre in Grenada) but remained rare throughout the medieval time period. Violence really begins to escalate around 1200AD and you see a noted difference in the response of rulers to this violence as anti-Semitism develops.
[...]
My research was more on the origins of modern racism (which is tied very strongly to anti-semitism) and generally the "why" aspects of these things seems more interesting to me. It does seem to be a peculiar western obsession riddled with hostile conspiracies and one that can transcend the political spectrum. [...]"
"I can speak to the Biblical background of anti-Judaism. Like the mod above I also specify anti-Judaism because when it's religious, it isn't antisemitism, it's anti-Judaism. Unlike the Nazis, the primary marker of Jewishness for a Christian who hated Jews was not blood – though this becomes complicated, especially as we forge toward the modern era.posted by ftrtts at 6:27 AM on March 24 [8 favorites]
Many of the accusations levied against Jews through late antiquity and the medieval era stem from the Bible, warped understandings of the Bible, and crazed conspiracies as developed from those Biblical issues.
Let's focus on Matthew. [...]
All of this becomes secondary to political and economic concerns on many occasions. French nobility were not concerned with the blood responsibility for the death of Jesus when they expelled Jews after racking up debts to them. But it does lay an ideological groundwork."
Thank you ftrtts, I appreciate the response. It's the singularity of antisemitism that provoked my question. I think bigotry and fear/hatred of an other seems baked in, but the laser focus on a specific group seems to be a product of recorded history to some extent.
posted by ginger.beef at 6:40 AM on March 24
posted by ginger.beef at 6:40 AM on March 24
Regarding I/P and antisemitism, it shouldn't be a factor at all. You dont' see many people engaging in sinophobia due to the PRC's genocide of the Uygher people for example.
Other than just the fact that antisemites will latch onto anything they can to promote antisemitism, so blaming American Jews for Israel's actions is a natural step for such people despite being completely irrational, I'd argue the efforts by some groups to identify Israel with all Jews and all Jews with Israel in an effort to deflect criticism of Israel is also a factor.
Following WWII and the revelation of the extent of the Holocaust gentiles around the world were shamed into actually pretending to give a shit about antisemitism for a couple of generations and as a result overt antisemitism became unacceptableish in mainstream Western culture. Not that it ended antisemitism, and it may not have even reduced it much, but it made it impolite to express in public which probably did actually reduce it a bit.
That would have faded with time regardless, but I strongly suspect that groups slinging around false accusations of antisemtiism based on criticism of Israel likely accelerated the process. In the subconscious of Western gentiles accusations of antisemitism lost their sharp edge and started blurring into just noise which gave the actual antisemites more social space to spread their hate.
It's easier to spread hate if the vast mass of people who really don't want to do anything or think about it can shrug it off as just more "politics".
As far as actually enforcing "never again". It goes a bit beyond the scope of the thread, but the reason why "never again" will never happen is simple:
It would require that we abandon the idea of national sovreginity and have some sort of super-governmental force that can take military action against a nation that's engaging in genocide. And that's not going to happen anytime soon.
What would it take to stop the genocide in Gaza? It would take a multinational force to either cow Israel into compliance with a credible threat of direct military action against Israel, or it would require direct military action against the SDF. You can see why that's not going to be happening even ignoring America's decline.
posted by sotonohito at 8:32 AM on March 24 [9 favorites]
Other than just the fact that antisemites will latch onto anything they can to promote antisemitism, so blaming American Jews for Israel's actions is a natural step for such people despite being completely irrational, I'd argue the efforts by some groups to identify Israel with all Jews and all Jews with Israel in an effort to deflect criticism of Israel is also a factor.
Following WWII and the revelation of the extent of the Holocaust gentiles around the world were shamed into actually pretending to give a shit about antisemitism for a couple of generations and as a result overt antisemitism became unacceptableish in mainstream Western culture. Not that it ended antisemitism, and it may not have even reduced it much, but it made it impolite to express in public which probably did actually reduce it a bit.
That would have faded with time regardless, but I strongly suspect that groups slinging around false accusations of antisemtiism based on criticism of Israel likely accelerated the process. In the subconscious of Western gentiles accusations of antisemitism lost their sharp edge and started blurring into just noise which gave the actual antisemites more social space to spread their hate.
It's easier to spread hate if the vast mass of people who really don't want to do anything or think about it can shrug it off as just more "politics".
As far as actually enforcing "never again". It goes a bit beyond the scope of the thread, but the reason why "never again" will never happen is simple:
It would require that we abandon the idea of national sovreginity and have some sort of super-governmental force that can take military action against a nation that's engaging in genocide. And that's not going to happen anytime soon.
What would it take to stop the genocide in Gaza? It would take a multinational force to either cow Israel into compliance with a credible threat of direct military action against Israel, or it would require direct military action against the SDF. You can see why that's not going to be happening even ignoring America's decline.
posted by sotonohito at 8:32 AM on March 24 [9 favorites]
I am speaking to the disparity in terms of the way the state performs power... The decisions that result in that display are very much concerned with theatre. There is what happens at the protest, or outside the temple, and there is the media coverage and projection to ensure everyone gets the message... It should concern all of us, anytime the disparity is so explicit
What disparity? NYC is a prime target for terrorist attacks and assassination attempts of all kinds — faith-based, anti-capitalist, directed at the global headquarters of multinational organizations, not to mention the UN, countless consulates, and so on. Millions of people live right in the middle of that, and Times Square, which is roughly in the middle of Manhattan and the central business district in the 50s, is also one of the most visited tourist attractions in the world, with more than 50 million visitors every year.
That's why when the Supreme Court struck a New York gun law requiring a specific need for carrying a concealed weapon, City and State police and officials held a major press conference to reassure the public that they'd already formulated a plan to address it.
That response and the "security theater" you cite are built on experience. Not only does the odd crazy person wave around a gun in public, or call in a bomb threat in Times Square, but from time to time it gets really serious, as in the 2019 Jersey City kosher market attack, which left three dead — Jersey City is only minutes from NYC — and in 2022 the two neo-nazis caught at Penn Station before they were able to shoot up a nearby synagogue.
posted by Violet Blue at 4:25 PM on March 24
What disparity? NYC is a prime target for terrorist attacks and assassination attempts of all kinds — faith-based, anti-capitalist, directed at the global headquarters of multinational organizations, not to mention the UN, countless consulates, and so on. Millions of people live right in the middle of that, and Times Square, which is roughly in the middle of Manhattan and the central business district in the 50s, is also one of the most visited tourist attractions in the world, with more than 50 million visitors every year.
That's why when the Supreme Court struck a New York gun law requiring a specific need for carrying a concealed weapon, City and State police and officials held a major press conference to reassure the public that they'd already formulated a plan to address it.
That response and the "security theater" you cite are built on experience. Not only does the odd crazy person wave around a gun in public, or call in a bomb threat in Times Square, but from time to time it gets really serious, as in the 2019 Jersey City kosher market attack, which left three dead — Jersey City is only minutes from NYC — and in 2022 the two neo-nazis caught at Penn Station before they were able to shoot up a nearby synagogue.
posted by Violet Blue at 4:25 PM on March 24
What would it take to stop the genocide in Gaza? It would take a multinational force to either cow Israel into compliance with a credible threat of direct military action against Israel, or it would require direct military action against the SDF.
All that is necessary is to stop giving Israel the weapons they are using to kill Palestinians.
posted by mydonkeybenjamin at 4:46 PM on March 24 [4 favorites]
All that is necessary is to stop giving Israel the weapons they are using to kill Palestinians.
posted by mydonkeybenjamin at 4:46 PM on March 24 [4 favorites]
It's important whenever "terrorism" is mentioned to include a reminder that it is fundamentally a racialised term. There's the great report published last year Anti-Palestinian at the Core: The Origins and Growing Dangers of U.S. Antiterrorism Law. Some highlights:
posted by ftrtts at 5:24 PM on March 24 [4 favorites]
"Many foundational antiterrorism laws arose during or were adapted to pivotal moments in the Palestinian liberation struggle, often pushed by Israel-aligned groups to reflexively cast the veil of “terrorism” almost uniquely on Palestinians."The ADL is one of the key organisations (AIPAC is another) responsible for these laws. It has been Zionist since at least the 1970s when it started deliberately conflating anti-Zionism with antisemitism, as others have already mentioned.
"The earliest mention of “terrorism” in a federal statute, in 1969, dealt specifically with restricting humanitarian aid to Palestinians and inaugurated a pattern of rendering Palestinians synonymous with terrorism;"
"The most significant criminal law pertaining to terrorism is the ban on material support to Foreign Terrorist Organizations (FTOs) The material support statute is the most commonly used criminal charge in terrorism cases and is overwhelmingly employed against American Muslims The Supreme Court in 2010 upheld very broad interpretations of the material support statute to include even advocacy and humanitarian aid if deemed to be carried out “in coordination” with an FTO.
The material support statute was passed in the wake of the 1995 bombing of a federal building in Oklahoma City, described at the time as the worst terrorist atrocity in U.S. history. Although that attack was perpetrated by U.S. white nationalists, the resulting antiterrorism laws enacted by Congress exclusively targeted foreign organizations. Zionist organizations played a key role in the legislation’s ultimate passage."
"Events since the autumn of 2023 have presented another crisis – one that opponents of Palestinian liberation must not be allowed to seize to criminalize advocacy and suppress dissent. Such an outcome would irreparably undermine fundamental constitutional rights and enable even more aggressive efforts to crack down on other movements for social justice."
posted by ftrtts at 5:24 PM on March 24 [4 favorites]
I just got back from a security committee meeting for my congregation. And I've been reflecting on the way home, the way you do when you've trying to figure out solutions to securing a building that was never designed for the circumstances we are in now.
There's no space for Jews to talk about our experience or our sense of fear and threat about things that are NOT about the state of Israel or the Zionist project or the malfeasance of the ADL or whatever. I don't give a flying fuck about protestors (about from crowd control issues and scaring the congregants with PTSD). My worry is someone coming in with a semi-automatic and shooting up the place like they did at the mosque a few kms away. And that someone will be a chud radicalised by right wing
We can see in this discussion the deep rifts between Jews but much more a ton of (self)-righteous gentiles charging in with your reckons. I'd like to be able to talk about what the Rogan gateway means, or Snyder's take on who gets to define who's a Jew and what a good Jew is (and oh the irony visible in this discussion). But it's not going to happen because you won't let it happen.
I shouldn't have to say (though it's so) that I support Palestinian statehood, am appalled Israeli conduct in Gaza (and the West Bank) and that I will cheer when Netanyahu and his mob are in jail. But.
I have given up hope on this post, and frankly as far as respect for Jews goes, on Metafilter. As the kids say, it is not a safe space. See you in a month or two, maybe.
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 12:22 AM on March 25 [3 favorites]
There's no space for Jews to talk about our experience or our sense of fear and threat about things that are NOT about the state of Israel or the Zionist project or the malfeasance of the ADL or whatever. I don't give a flying fuck about protestors (about from crowd control issues and scaring the congregants with PTSD). My worry is someone coming in with a semi-automatic and shooting up the place like they did at the mosque a few kms away. And that someone will be a chud radicalised by right wing
We can see in this discussion the deep rifts between Jews but much more a ton of (self)-righteous gentiles charging in with your reckons. I'd like to be able to talk about what the Rogan gateway means, or Snyder's take on who gets to define who's a Jew and what a good Jew is (and oh the irony visible in this discussion). But it's not going to happen because you won't let it happen.
I shouldn't have to say (though it's so) that I support Palestinian statehood, am appalled Israeli conduct in Gaza (and the West Bank) and that I will cheer when Netanyahu and his mob are in jail. But.
I have given up hope on this post, and frankly as far as respect for Jews goes, on Metafilter. As the kids say, it is not a safe space. See you in a month or two, maybe.
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 12:22 AM on March 25 [3 favorites]
I'm open to reading recommendations.
I can happily recommend this newly released video essay from Natalie Wynn:
CONSPIRACY | contrapoints
It's characteristically lengthy at 2h40m which will no doubt limit its appeal to many, but if you don't mind a long and thorough piece from a thoughtful presenter then this one belongs on your viewing list.
posted by flabdablet at 8:02 AM on March 25 [2 favorites]
I can happily recommend this newly released video essay from Natalie Wynn:
CONSPIRACY | contrapoints
It's characteristically lengthy at 2h40m which will no doubt limit its appeal to many, but if you don't mind a long and thorough piece from a thoughtful presenter then this one belongs on your viewing list.
posted by flabdablet at 8:02 AM on March 25 [2 favorites]
There's no space for Jews to talk about our experience or our sense of fear and threat about things that are NOT about the state of Israel or the Zionist project or the malfeasance of the ADL or whatever.
I have given up hope on this post, and frankly as far as respect for Jews goes, on Metafilter. As the kids say, it is not a safe space.
speaking for myself, as I'd hate to overreach and misrepresent the other self-righteous gentiles who have been active in this discussion, I can empathize with the emotion and fear of your situation and disagree with my entire being what you have chosen to focus on with your comment.
posted by ginger.beef at 3:54 PM on March 25
I have given up hope on this post, and frankly as far as respect for Jews goes, on Metafilter. As the kids say, it is not a safe space.
speaking for myself, as I'd hate to overreach and misrepresent the other self-righteous gentiles who have been active in this discussion, I can empathize with the emotion and fear of your situation and disagree with my entire being what you have chosen to focus on with your comment.
posted by ginger.beef at 3:54 PM on March 25
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