"You must try to swallow the world while it's on fire"
March 31, 2025 6:45 AM Subscribe
Unlike the first Trump term, public protest of any kind seems much more dangerous now. While I can't condone vandalism, it's telling that spray painting a Tesla is now considered an act of terrorism that could get you disappeared off the streets by a bunch of masked ICE thugs.
Organizers and participants need to pay more attention to how they communicate than ever before. Lives may depend on it. Corporate-owned tools have to be avoided, and protestors have to start thinking like spies and assume they're being monitored. We can prevail, but it won't be easy and it will be costly.
posted by tommasz at 7:11 AM on March 31 [25 favorites]
Organizers and participants need to pay more attention to how they communicate than ever before. Lives may depend on it. Corporate-owned tools have to be avoided, and protestors have to start thinking like spies and assume they're being monitored. We can prevail, but it won't be easy and it will be costly.
posted by tommasz at 7:11 AM on March 31 [25 favorites]
I basically feel trapped in an endless loop of:
General Consensus on the Left: [gets darker and more grim]
Me: Ok, that but even worse. You're not there yet.
[repeat]
posted by DirtyOldTown at 7:16 AM on March 31 [15 favorites]
General Consensus on the Left: [gets darker and more grim]
Me: Ok, that but even worse. You're not there yet.
[repeat]
posted by DirtyOldTown at 7:16 AM on March 31 [15 favorites]
Unlike the first Trump term, public protest of any kind seems much more dangerous now. While I can't condone vandalism, it's telling that spray painting a Tesla is now considered an act of terrorism that could get you disappeared off the streets by a bunch of masked ICE thugs.
I've been going to a weekly rally outside a Tesla here a couple times a month now. Fortunately the only bad incident I had at the first one was twisting my ankle and face-planting on the sidewalk; the organizer makes it clear that we are just there to make noise. We aren't allowed to go in, we aren't allowed to vandalize anything, we leave when we're done. We've had a couple cop cars take up position at either end of the street where we're standing, but this past weekend one of them was down with our protest, to the point that she was letting older protesters sit on the hood of her car when they got tired.
I've still started keeping an eye out for people hovering around and taking pictures (I reposition any sign I'm holding so it hides my face if I see them). And this weekend there was a woman who gave me a bad vibe - she had an amusing sign, but she also had a life-size standup cardboard cutout of Trump she was dragging around with a chain she had looped around its neck. When she first showed up she hollered something like "come on, let's protest like New Yorkers and hang this sucker in effigy!" And that's when I started edging away from her in the crowd; maybe she was a plant and maybe she wasn't, but either way I didn't want to be close by if anyone took her up on that.
....Social media is how I found out about those protests in the first place, though; the idea is that you're supposed to do things IRL as well. This is the thing that always bugged the snot out of me with social media - people coming up with these stupid dorky viral "awareness campaigns" that do nothing. I never got the point of an awareness campaign anyway - most of the things they tell me about are things I"m aware of already, and some don't have any suggestions for action you can take (there used to be some TRULY stupid ones about breast cancer), so....what was the point other than making people feel like they were doing something?
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 7:24 AM on March 31 [37 favorites]
I've been going to a weekly rally outside a Tesla here a couple times a month now. Fortunately the only bad incident I had at the first one was twisting my ankle and face-planting on the sidewalk; the organizer makes it clear that we are just there to make noise. We aren't allowed to go in, we aren't allowed to vandalize anything, we leave when we're done. We've had a couple cop cars take up position at either end of the street where we're standing, but this past weekend one of them was down with our protest, to the point that she was letting older protesters sit on the hood of her car when they got tired.
I've still started keeping an eye out for people hovering around and taking pictures (I reposition any sign I'm holding so it hides my face if I see them). And this weekend there was a woman who gave me a bad vibe - she had an amusing sign, but she also had a life-size standup cardboard cutout of Trump she was dragging around with a chain she had looped around its neck. When she first showed up she hollered something like "come on, let's protest like New Yorkers and hang this sucker in effigy!" And that's when I started edging away from her in the crowd; maybe she was a plant and maybe she wasn't, but either way I didn't want to be close by if anyone took her up on that.
....Social media is how I found out about those protests in the first place, though; the idea is that you're supposed to do things IRL as well. This is the thing that always bugged the snot out of me with social media - people coming up with these stupid dorky viral "awareness campaigns" that do nothing. I never got the point of an awareness campaign anyway - most of the things they tell me about are things I"m aware of already, and some don't have any suggestions for action you can take (there used to be some TRULY stupid ones about breast cancer), so....what was the point other than making people feel like they were doing something?
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 7:24 AM on March 31 [37 favorites]
There is a posting on reddit for a local group that sounds like a good spot to connect but also sounds like a good spot to get your name on a list which is just lovely
posted by lescour at 7:25 AM on March 31 [1 favorite]
posted by lescour at 7:25 AM on March 31 [1 favorite]
Here's a pithier piece from Cross, from February's Liberal Currents:
The New State Media
posted by snuffleupagus at 7:30 AM on March 31 [7 favorites]
The New State Media
posted by snuffleupagus at 7:30 AM on March 31 [7 favorites]
DirtyOldTown: "I basically feel trapped in an endless loop of:
General Consensus on the Left: [gets darker and more grim]
Me: Ok, that but even worse. You're not there yet.
[repeat]"
N. American exceptionalism
The vaunted difference between USians and Canadians is reduced to (not a lot) when it comes to attitudes of settler people who've lived here for 2/+ generations. What they know and think they know of the world.. turns out that's either mistaken or highly contingent.
posted by ginger.beef at 7:35 AM on March 31 [3 favorites]
General Consensus on the Left: [gets darker and more grim]
Me: Ok, that but even worse. You're not there yet.
[repeat]"
N. American exceptionalism
The vaunted difference between USians and Canadians is reduced to (not a lot) when it comes to attitudes of settler people who've lived here for 2/+ generations. What they know and think they know of the world.. turns out that's either mistaken or highly contingent.
posted by ginger.beef at 7:35 AM on March 31 [3 favorites]
I'm not sure I follow how your response relates to my general pessimism. Are you supposing I am shocked or surprised? Or do you think I am wrong to be pessimist?
Or are you saying the consensus is slow to accurately assess how bad things are bc of north American exceptionalism?
(This isn't a veiled argument. I just truly didn't follow there.)
posted by DirtyOldTown at 7:39 AM on March 31 [2 favorites]
Or are you saying the consensus is slow to accurately assess how bad things are bc of north American exceptionalism?
(This isn't a veiled argument. I just truly didn't follow there.)
posted by DirtyOldTown at 7:39 AM on March 31 [2 favorites]
Back to the article though, it's hard to know where to put my energy right now.
To use the WWII analogy people love so much... Would I hide the Franks? Absolutely. Would I smuggle babies out of a camp? Yes, of course.
But it feels like my current options don't include anything remotely that practical. I can support lawsuits I 100% believe will fail. I can attend protests that are far more likely to result in mass arrests than to produce even incremental change. I can support direct action movements that feel very much like baling floodwater with a teaspoon.
I am not advocating doing nothing or saying resistance is pointless. I am saying we're at a moment where there isn't a clear place it feels like we can impact anything. It's why frustrated people are doing mildly symbolically interesting but ultimately useless stuff like vandalizing Teslas.
It would be fantastic to have good opposition leadership right about now.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 7:47 AM on March 31 [48 favorites]
To use the WWII analogy people love so much... Would I hide the Franks? Absolutely. Would I smuggle babies out of a camp? Yes, of course.
But it feels like my current options don't include anything remotely that practical. I can support lawsuits I 100% believe will fail. I can attend protests that are far more likely to result in mass arrests than to produce even incremental change. I can support direct action movements that feel very much like baling floodwater with a teaspoon.
I am not advocating doing nothing or saying resistance is pointless. I am saying we're at a moment where there isn't a clear place it feels like we can impact anything. It's why frustrated people are doing mildly symbolically interesting but ultimately useless stuff like vandalizing Teslas.
It would be fantastic to have good opposition leadership right about now.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 7:47 AM on March 31 [48 favorites]
Lawsuits are already succeeding, though I think we're going to have a moment of reckoning when Trump refuses to comply with court orders. A terrifying moment of reckoning.
It's ironic to me that in any time of crisis, and this is true now even more than ever, my social media liberals, Queers, and Quakers re-post a lot of terrible news; unsourced "information" and anonymous personal anecdotes purporting to be first-person accounts of various ills; superficial inspirational and political memes and quotes ("first they came for the ..." x1000, thanks friends); and panicky advice to the more vulnerable among us, in particular cis friends posting about "Oh my god trans friends you have to get out of the country NOW! Please, save yourselves!" which are well-intentioned but also frustrating in their ignorance of either the realities of emigration or the particular circumstances of their specific trans friends. For instance, a lot of our Quaker people are really concerned about a certain friend of mine who is trans. He and his wife have a young child, and people keep exhorting them to get out of the country, which is actually a possibility they could explore because my friend has extensive family ties in the UK, though I'm not sure whether they have citizenship there.
But! As he keeps pointing out to people, their child is disabled, and few countries will allow immigration of people who are disabled or otherwise going to require public assistance. In addition, they live in Massachusetts, one of the safest, most protected states for trans people. They have no intention of fleeing the country. But my friend is dealing with a lot of "dump in" concern from well-meaning liberal friends spewing their partial understanding and emotional distress all over him.
Anyway, it's a sad irony for me because I need to be able to choose when, and in what form, I get my information. I'm actually better informed than most of my Facebook friends, but I don't discuss politics on Facebook, and I need to not be blindsided by horrible things. I'm disabled and chronically ill, and need connection, but I'm much less present on Facebook than normal these days.
posted by Well I never at 8:02 AM on March 31 [24 favorites]
It's ironic to me that in any time of crisis, and this is true now even more than ever, my social media liberals, Queers, and Quakers re-post a lot of terrible news; unsourced "information" and anonymous personal anecdotes purporting to be first-person accounts of various ills; superficial inspirational and political memes and quotes ("first they came for the ..." x1000, thanks friends); and panicky advice to the more vulnerable among us, in particular cis friends posting about "Oh my god trans friends you have to get out of the country NOW! Please, save yourselves!" which are well-intentioned but also frustrating in their ignorance of either the realities of emigration or the particular circumstances of their specific trans friends. For instance, a lot of our Quaker people are really concerned about a certain friend of mine who is trans. He and his wife have a young child, and people keep exhorting them to get out of the country, which is actually a possibility they could explore because my friend has extensive family ties in the UK, though I'm not sure whether they have citizenship there.
But! As he keeps pointing out to people, their child is disabled, and few countries will allow immigration of people who are disabled or otherwise going to require public assistance. In addition, they live in Massachusetts, one of the safest, most protected states for trans people. They have no intention of fleeing the country. But my friend is dealing with a lot of "dump in" concern from well-meaning liberal friends spewing their partial understanding and emotional distress all over him.
Anyway, it's a sad irony for me because I need to be able to choose when, and in what form, I get my information. I'm actually better informed than most of my Facebook friends, but I don't discuss politics on Facebook, and I need to not be blindsided by horrible things. I'm disabled and chronically ill, and need connection, but I'm much less present on Facebook than normal these days.
posted by Well I never at 8:02 AM on March 31 [24 favorites]
The lawsuits sometimes present valuable delays, yes. And there is value in roadblocks, sure. So I shouldn't be totally dismissive. But I don't have much faith in them as actual solutions, not with the Supreme Court we have.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 8:05 AM on March 31 [2 favorites]
posted by DirtyOldTown at 8:05 AM on March 31 [2 favorites]
I should say, more accurately, the some lawsuits are succeeding, others are still in the works, and some have not gone our way. I'm grateful to existing organizations, including the ACLU, Public Citizen, some Quaker bodies along with other religious organizations like the UU, who are putting their already-extensive experience and networks to use. I honor people who are creating new organizations of resistance, including an increasingly active group local to me, but I am also glad for all that is already in place and able to take quick action.
posted by Well I never at 8:06 AM on March 31 [1 favorite]
posted by Well I never at 8:06 AM on March 31 [1 favorite]
But it feels like my current options don't include anything remotely that practical.
My disability and chronic illness are making this very difficult for me. As is, to be honest, my age: 60 later this year, and I've been an activist for more than 40. Part of me feels like "I marched in my marches, I organized my marches, I did my direct actions, I organized the community groups, I made art for my people, I gave speeches, and I'm tired." But part of me wants to still be doing those things, and I can't.
I don't think marches and demonstrations are useless, even if they don't change the minds of people in power. They can be empowering for participants and for onlookers. But I am discouraged to have so few actions I can take, and no idea how to reach the people I most want to reach, young trans and queer folk, especially since my illness forced me to leave my job in October, where I worked with quite a few LGBTQ young people as part of my job tutoring math at a community college.
posted by Well I never at 8:10 AM on March 31 [10 favorites]
My disability and chronic illness are making this very difficult for me. As is, to be honest, my age: 60 later this year, and I've been an activist for more than 40. Part of me feels like "I marched in my marches, I organized my marches, I did my direct actions, I organized the community groups, I made art for my people, I gave speeches, and I'm tired." But part of me wants to still be doing those things, and I can't.
I don't think marches and demonstrations are useless, even if they don't change the minds of people in power. They can be empowering for participants and for onlookers. But I am discouraged to have so few actions I can take, and no idea how to reach the people I most want to reach, young trans and queer folk, especially since my illness forced me to leave my job in October, where I worked with quite a few LGBTQ young people as part of my job tutoring math at a community college.
posted by Well I never at 8:10 AM on March 31 [10 favorites]
Are you supposing I am shocked or surprised? Or do you think I am wrong to be pessimist?
I took your comment in the spirit of what you have shared of your time outside the US, and particularly how your thoughts may have been informed by your partner's experience. I think N. Americans have largely been insulated from a lot of things in the world, and I'm largely in agreement with the assessment: things are worse than we think.
The institutions and circumstances that led to our relative comfort are based on things that either were false and/or purely exploitative, or were based on a type of consensus and conventions that have been evaporating/deteriorating for the past few decades.
posted by ginger.beef at 8:18 AM on March 31 [10 favorites]
I took your comment in the spirit of what you have shared of your time outside the US, and particularly how your thoughts may have been informed by your partner's experience. I think N. Americans have largely been insulated from a lot of things in the world, and I'm largely in agreement with the assessment: things are worse than we think.
The institutions and circumstances that led to our relative comfort are based on things that either were false and/or purely exploitative, or were based on a type of consensus and conventions that have been evaporating/deteriorating for the past few decades.
posted by ginger.beef at 8:18 AM on March 31 [10 favorites]
I guess to reformulate what I said above in a way that doesn't minimize what is currently being done, I would say that I wish there was something I could do to change the current path of things and not simply impede/slow it or show solidarity against it, even though that matters, too. I'm just impatient.
There's a reason why when we discuss German resistance to the Nazis, we never ask, "Well, did they donate to any lawsuits? Did they make any posters? Did they spend any Saturdays at a phone bank?"
posted by DirtyOldTown at 8:18 AM on March 31 [16 favorites]
There's a reason why when we discuss German resistance to the Nazis, we never ask, "Well, did they donate to any lawsuits? Did they make any posters? Did they spend any Saturdays at a phone bank?"
posted by DirtyOldTown at 8:18 AM on March 31 [16 favorites]
Why collective action is the only way
The first play in the autocratic playbook is not to attack everyone at once.posted by gwint at 8:51 AM on March 31 [25 favorites]
Rather, it’s to go after one. One law firm. One judge. One university. One journalist. The strategy isn’t just to silence the immediate target — it’s to make others watch and learn. To convince them that resistance is dangerous, costly, and futile. To make them believe that if they just keep their head down, it’ll happen to someone else instead.
The strategy works. It’s why Viktor Orbán, Vladimir Putin, and Recep Tayyip Erdoğan were able to consolidate power in Hungary, Russia, and Turkey without needing to bulldoze the entire system at once. They didn’t need to. It was enough to pick off a few key targets, watch everyone else retreat into fear and complicity, and let the structure collapse under its own weight.
But the strategy fails — and it has failed — when societies recognize the game early enough and refuse to play along. When institutions that would normally compete or stay in their lane realize that they rise and fall together. That’s what collective action is. And that’s why it’s so dangerous to autocrats.
To return to TFA:
posted by slkinsey at 8:52 AM on March 31 [19 favorites]
If there’s one thing I’d hoped people had learned going into the next four years of Donald Trump as president, it’s that spending lots of time online posting about what people in power are saying and doing is not going to accomplish anything.This. A thousand times this. I just get so. damn. tired. of my colleagues on the left patting themselves on the back for trolling on social media (which often spills over into real life) as though that moves the needle one iota or can in any way be viewed as political activism. Meanwhile, as TFA points out: "reactionary right-wing groups ... have claimed political victories by seizing power one public school board and small town at a time."
...perhaps the greatest of these sins is convincing ourselves that posting is a form of political activism...
posted by slkinsey at 8:52 AM on March 31 [19 favorites]
I'm currently re-reading Defying Hitler: A Memoir, by Sebastian Haffner. It's about 1914-1933, so more of a story about why Germany turned fascist than the usuals stuff we read about when Hitler took over and had taken over. And it is very much a story from the perspective of an ordinary boy/young man, rather than that of a minority or a politically active person. About how the tiny shoots of fascism appeared before anyone had even heard of Hitler.
I've only reached 1923, and it's already far too recognizable.
One of his most chilling observations is that most of the Nazis weren't war-hungry WW1 soldiers, as it is often claimed. Some were, obviously Hitler and perhaps Göring, he writes. But most were those boys born between 1900 and 1910 who grew up in a chaotic and confusing age with extreme inflation and poverty and also decadence and people who were able to get rich fast off of the chaos. It was for those young men that the Nazi Party promised both adventure and order and hopefully one day a ranch in the conquered Wild East (I'm deliberately using "ranch" rather than "farm", because they and Hitler were also inspired by Karl May's adventures from the Wild West).
Well, I'm sure I don't need to write out the direct mirror images today.
posted by mumimor at 9:04 AM on March 31 [22 favorites]
I've only reached 1923, and it's already far too recognizable.
One of his most chilling observations is that most of the Nazis weren't war-hungry WW1 soldiers, as it is often claimed. Some were, obviously Hitler and perhaps Göring, he writes. But most were those boys born between 1900 and 1910 who grew up in a chaotic and confusing age with extreme inflation and poverty and also decadence and people who were able to get rich fast off of the chaos. It was for those young men that the Nazi Party promised both adventure and order and hopefully one day a ranch in the conquered Wild East (I'm deliberately using "ranch" rather than "farm", because they and Hitler were also inspired by Karl May's adventures from the Wild West).
Well, I'm sure I don't need to write out the direct mirror images today.
posted by mumimor at 9:04 AM on March 31 [22 favorites]
Great article and lots to think about.
I've been very active posting dissent and I've done this because its one easy way to stand out (a la Snyder's 20 Lessons, #8). I'm not posting for my fellow active progressives - I'm posting for my disengaged friends. I make a point of trying to include something they can do that is easy and actionable (resistbot and 5Calls).
My feeling is that by staying silent I'm normalizing. However just screaming into the void is useless - calls for action and simple instructions give people one way to get involved.
We've got to activate the timid somehow and silence isn't going to do it. Neither is wheel spinning in an echo chamber. If you can do it safely, be public and always offer some options to get active.
posted by Joey Michaels at 9:07 AM on March 31 [7 favorites]
I've been very active posting dissent and I've done this because its one easy way to stand out (a la Snyder's 20 Lessons, #8). I'm not posting for my fellow active progressives - I'm posting for my disengaged friends. I make a point of trying to include something they can do that is easy and actionable (resistbot and 5Calls).
My feeling is that by staying silent I'm normalizing. However just screaming into the void is useless - calls for action and simple instructions give people one way to get involved.
We've got to activate the timid somehow and silence isn't going to do it. Neither is wheel spinning in an echo chamber. If you can do it safely, be public and always offer some options to get active.
posted by Joey Michaels at 9:07 AM on March 31 [7 favorites]
There's a reason why when we discuss German resistance to the Nazis, we never ask, "Well, did they donate to any lawsuits? Did they make any posters? Did they spend any Saturdays at a phone bank?"
But I mean...what is that reason? Because it didn't work? Well neither did any of their other stuff, not on the scale you're talking about. Millions were still rounded up, imprisoned, tortured, and murdered, and there was still an entire fucking world war.
The big romantic stuff, hiding Jews and smuggling children, that also didn't work if by "Work" you mean:
change the current path of things and not simply impede/slow it or show solidarity against it
All the resistance efforts you're glamorizing didn't do any differently than impede and slow down the machinery. Maybe change the path for individuals here or there. The Franks were hidden for a couple years and then they all died except for Otto, remember? Not that it wasn't meaningful to them to have those years--of course it was. But in the face of overwhelming fascist takeover, there is no changing. There is only slowing, throwing sand in the gears, and the long, collective, boring work of building opposition.
Or there's war. But I somehow doubt you're impatient enough to want that.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 9:13 AM on March 31 [10 favorites]
But I mean...what is that reason? Because it didn't work? Well neither did any of their other stuff, not on the scale you're talking about. Millions were still rounded up, imprisoned, tortured, and murdered, and there was still an entire fucking world war.
The big romantic stuff, hiding Jews and smuggling children, that also didn't work if by "Work" you mean:
change the current path of things and not simply impede/slow it or show solidarity against it
All the resistance efforts you're glamorizing didn't do any differently than impede and slow down the machinery. Maybe change the path for individuals here or there. The Franks were hidden for a couple years and then they all died except for Otto, remember? Not that it wasn't meaningful to them to have those years--of course it was. But in the face of overwhelming fascist takeover, there is no changing. There is only slowing, throwing sand in the gears, and the long, collective, boring work of building opposition.
Or there's war. But I somehow doubt you're impatient enough to want that.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 9:13 AM on March 31 [10 favorites]
Dropkick Murphys was suspended from X/Twitter because they criticized Musk/Trump, HearHere, but still on youtube.
Janus Rose> "Thinkers like Jean-Paul Sartre and Hannah Arendt warned us that the point of this deluge is not to persuade, but to overwhelm and paralyze our capacity to act."
Cool, a Jean-Paul Sartre reference! Apropo song: Baby Floods the Zone by Shriekback.
“The Democrats don’t matter, The real opposition is the media. And the way to deal with them is to flood the zone with shit.” - Steve Bannon
Janus Rose> "More recently, researchers have found that the viral outrage disseminated on social media in response to these ridiculous claims actually reduces the effectiveness of collective action. The result is a media environment that keeps us in a state of debilitating fear and anger, endlessly reacting to our oppressors instead of organizing against them. / To that end, the age of corporate social media has been a roaring success."
Interesting citation here too, thanks! Apropo song: Doomscroller by Metric.
Around when the US left started worrying about not offending everyone, I frequently pointed out that "being offended" was a strategy for the powerful, with which they shield their bullshit. All the "being offended" would never bring weaker parties much real sustained benefit, ala "the master’s tools will never dismantle the master’s house." It's actually worse I guess, in part because of the effect cited here.
Afaik neoliberal led coalitions aka Democrats cannot defeate fascists, not longer-term anyways. All the lawsuits are good though, even meak wriggling by Democrats helps. It'll all cost the fascists legitimacy when they replace judges, change laws, etc. In turn, the lost legitimacy strengthens future efforst against the US, both internally ala sabatoge as well as international collations.
Anyways, do skim German resistance to Nazism. Also, every young leftist should know that DEF fluids (AdBlue) or sodium silicate seriously damage diesel engines when introduced into the fuel system.
"Rome was destroyed, Greece was destroyed, Persia was destroyed, Spain was destroyed. All great countries are destroyed. Why not yours? How much longer do you really think your own country will last? Forever?"
- Joseph Heller, Catch-22
posted by jeffburdges at 9:27 AM on March 31 [9 favorites]
Janus Rose> "Thinkers like Jean-Paul Sartre and Hannah Arendt warned us that the point of this deluge is not to persuade, but to overwhelm and paralyze our capacity to act."
Cool, a Jean-Paul Sartre reference! Apropo song: Baby Floods the Zone by Shriekback.
“The Democrats don’t matter, The real opposition is the media. And the way to deal with them is to flood the zone with shit.” - Steve Bannon
Janus Rose> "More recently, researchers have found that the viral outrage disseminated on social media in response to these ridiculous claims actually reduces the effectiveness of collective action. The result is a media environment that keeps us in a state of debilitating fear and anger, endlessly reacting to our oppressors instead of organizing against them. / To that end, the age of corporate social media has been a roaring success."
Interesting citation here too, thanks! Apropo song: Doomscroller by Metric.
Around when the US left started worrying about not offending everyone, I frequently pointed out that "being offended" was a strategy for the powerful, with which they shield their bullshit. All the "being offended" would never bring weaker parties much real sustained benefit, ala "the master’s tools will never dismantle the master’s house." It's actually worse I guess, in part because of the effect cited here.
Afaik neoliberal led coalitions aka Democrats cannot defeate fascists, not longer-term anyways. All the lawsuits are good though, even meak wriggling by Democrats helps. It'll all cost the fascists legitimacy when they replace judges, change laws, etc. In turn, the lost legitimacy strengthens future efforst against the US, both internally ala sabatoge as well as international collations.
Anyways, do skim German resistance to Nazism. Also, every young leftist should know that DEF fluids (AdBlue) or sodium silicate seriously damage diesel engines when introduced into the fuel system.
"Rome was destroyed, Greece was destroyed, Persia was destroyed, Spain was destroyed. All great countries are destroyed. Why not yours? How much longer do you really think your own country will last? Forever?"
- Joseph Heller, Catch-22
posted by jeffburdges at 9:27 AM on March 31 [9 favorites]
There's a reason why when we discuss German resistance to the Nazis
For the French resistance, which looms large in the mythology around that era, my understanding is that for the first, say, two and a half years, it was a weak, isolated and lonely effort. It was only when forced labor/travail obligatoire meant that young men were being taken away from homes to work in German industry that the resistance picked up steam. Reality is not always quite as heroic as the movies.
posted by gimonca at 9:30 AM on March 31 [11 favorites]
For the French resistance, which looms large in the mythology around that era, my understanding is that for the first, say, two and a half years, it was a weak, isolated and lonely effort. It was only when forced labor/travail obligatoire meant that young men were being taken away from homes to work in German industry that the resistance picked up steam. Reality is not always quite as heroic as the movies.
posted by gimonca at 9:30 AM on March 31 [11 favorites]
The Dropkick Murphys account on twitter isn't suspended because of anything they said about Trump. It's suspended because after they abandoned Twitter in 2022 because it was becoming a right wing cesspool, someone else managed to get hold of their account, so it was suspended for identity fraud.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 9:38 AM on March 31 [15 favorites]
posted by DirtyOldTown at 9:38 AM on March 31 [15 favorites]
Oh sorry, I forgot what I wanted to write as a comment to TFA and the discussion here.
The thing is that most people don't notice the fascism till it's too late. People are just going about with their stuff, the rent is too high, the eggs are too expensive, there's a great new movie, they can't really tell the difference between Trump 1 and Biden in their own lives. Or their lives might have gotten worse during Biden, because of the inflation.
Even during the November Revolution in Germany, the water still came out of the taps, the stores were open and people went to work.
For those who can see what is going on, this is endlessly frustrating. You go and talk with your dad or your neighbor or the nice lady at the hardware store and they are blind. They might even be worried about the rallies and marches and Tesla store things. They are not worried about Trump even if they voted for Biden, because absurdly, they still trust in government, even as they complain about it. They can't imagine a world where Auntie doesn't get her social security or the national parks are sold off for exploitation, because they have never seen such a world.
The rich bankers and the CEOs at the big corporations think they can handle Trump, because last time round he kept talking about business and the Dow. They can't imagine the level of corruption and grift coming to them this time round, because they have never seen it in America and they never thought the liberal order could break down here.
YOU can see this and you can do do nothing, which is why you are sitting there, posting memes and gotyas, in a form of circular doom masturbation. Collective action is fine, but who is your collective if you are not a leftist activist or a big law firm or university, if you don't really know where you belong or what to do?
BTW on a lighter note, I think the Signal scandal is relatively effective when it comes to getting more people to wake up. There is something I feel in the air, some sense of outrage across all societal boundaries. Maybe it's because it's so easy to understand or because so many people know former or active military folks.
posted by mumimor at 9:39 AM on March 31 [22 favorites]
The thing is that most people don't notice the fascism till it's too late. People are just going about with their stuff, the rent is too high, the eggs are too expensive, there's a great new movie, they can't really tell the difference between Trump 1 and Biden in their own lives. Or their lives might have gotten worse during Biden, because of the inflation.
Even during the November Revolution in Germany, the water still came out of the taps, the stores were open and people went to work.
For those who can see what is going on, this is endlessly frustrating. You go and talk with your dad or your neighbor or the nice lady at the hardware store and they are blind. They might even be worried about the rallies and marches and Tesla store things. They are not worried about Trump even if they voted for Biden, because absurdly, they still trust in government, even as they complain about it. They can't imagine a world where Auntie doesn't get her social security or the national parks are sold off for exploitation, because they have never seen such a world.
The rich bankers and the CEOs at the big corporations think they can handle Trump, because last time round he kept talking about business and the Dow. They can't imagine the level of corruption and grift coming to them this time round, because they have never seen it in America and they never thought the liberal order could break down here.
YOU can see this and you can do do nothing, which is why you are sitting there, posting memes and gotyas, in a form of circular doom masturbation. Collective action is fine, but who is your collective if you are not a leftist activist or a big law firm or university, if you don't really know where you belong or what to do?
BTW on a lighter note, I think the Signal scandal is relatively effective when it comes to getting more people to wake up. There is something I feel in the air, some sense of outrage across all societal boundaries. Maybe it's because it's so easy to understand or because so many people know former or active military folks.
posted by mumimor at 9:39 AM on March 31 [22 favorites]
I can't remember who it was that said that one of the challenges fascism represents is that is is arguably the best possible political system to live under as long as you are among the in-group, but that the rub is, almost no one stays in the in-group forever, as the machine demands new people be cast out all the time.
People are, at least at the outset, incentivized to think it's working great.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 9:41 AM on March 31 [13 favorites]
People are, at least at the outset, incentivized to think it's working great.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 9:41 AM on March 31 [13 favorites]
At a recent Tesla Takedown in Seattle I couldn't help but notice that the demographics skewed pretty old; out of 80 people only a few were under 40. I expect that "online-ism" to be a significant factor here... they've gotta start showing up.
Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good. Showing up to Tesla Takedowns or something similar builds muscles and habits, and gives you an opportunity to identify reliable resistance leaders.
posted by microscone at 9:50 AM on March 31 [13 favorites]
Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good. Showing up to Tesla Takedowns or something similar builds muscles and habits, and gives you an opportunity to identify reliable resistance leaders.
posted by microscone at 9:50 AM on March 31 [13 favorites]
If the resistance stays online it's useless sure, but trump 2.0 is fundamentally different from trump 1.0 in that this time the admin are working to silence or sideline media, business, the academy, law, scientists...
I think in this atmosphere of attempted silence, posting anti Trump and anti Musk things and sharing them DOES matter actually. R/fednews is doing good work. Knowing a lot of people are horrified and not just thinking everything is fine IS good actually.
Now, thinking that because Trump and Musk are losing credibility and their poll numbers are (slowly) falling, and the US economy is (slowly) collapsing, this nightmare will soon be over, that is foolish. Trump almost didn't leave office the first time when there was a well understood mechanism to remove him. If there's no mechanism to get him out, public sentiment does nothing (although the public sentiment does have to turn first before anything ELSE can happen). There needs to be a plan for how to remove these fucks. Without a plan it won't happen.
Anyway. Show up for the protests and go to the virtual town halls and go to the Tesla takedowns ANYWAY because it feels better to do something. Why do nothing when you could do something?
posted by subdee at 10:03 AM on March 31 [7 favorites]
I think in this atmosphere of attempted silence, posting anti Trump and anti Musk things and sharing them DOES matter actually. R/fednews is doing good work. Knowing a lot of people are horrified and not just thinking everything is fine IS good actually.
Now, thinking that because Trump and Musk are losing credibility and their poll numbers are (slowly) falling, and the US economy is (slowly) collapsing, this nightmare will soon be over, that is foolish. Trump almost didn't leave office the first time when there was a well understood mechanism to remove him. If there's no mechanism to get him out, public sentiment does nothing (although the public sentiment does have to turn first before anything ELSE can happen). There needs to be a plan for how to remove these fucks. Without a plan it won't happen.
Anyway. Show up for the protests and go to the virtual town halls and go to the Tesla takedowns ANYWAY because it feels better to do something. Why do nothing when you could do something?
posted by subdee at 10:03 AM on March 31 [7 favorites]
A scary amount of young men are getting captured by the misogynist manosphere; the idea that tge right wing would die off from old age is obsolete.
They are being told that they are entitled to basically female slaves, and are angry they don't have them.
posted by NotAYakk at 10:07 AM on March 31 [17 favorites]
They are being told that they are entitled to basically female slaves, and are angry they don't have them.
posted by NotAYakk at 10:07 AM on March 31 [17 favorites]
@microscone -- agreed, although I saw more younger people last Saturday than I did the Saturday before, which is promising. And that's why putting bodies out there matters -- it increases visibility. The usual right wing suspects in the Seattle Times comment section were absolutely outraged at the turnout, so I think we're moving in the right direction.
I also met someone this time who was there for her first time and felt really good seeing other people who share her feelings about Musk. That's the point. That's how the movement grows. We've got to activate the sympathizers who thought they were alone. (Which is also why, although I fervently disagree with the Deport Musk sentiment, I'm not going to challenge people carrying those signs on the spot.)
I also think that personal safety plays a role in what we do. If you're disabled and you can't get out there, that's OK! I have friends who are permanent residents but not citizens and I don't think they should go to these; I've weighed the risk and reward and I'm comfortable with the risk. And the risk is part of the point -- my skin is in this game.
posted by Bryant at 10:20 AM on March 31 [5 favorites]
I also met someone this time who was there for her first time and felt really good seeing other people who share her feelings about Musk. That's the point. That's how the movement grows. We've got to activate the sympathizers who thought they were alone. (Which is also why, although I fervently disagree with the Deport Musk sentiment, I'm not going to challenge people carrying those signs on the spot.)
I also think that personal safety plays a role in what we do. If you're disabled and you can't get out there, that's OK! I have friends who are permanent residents but not citizens and I don't think they should go to these; I've weighed the risk and reward and I'm comfortable with the risk. And the risk is part of the point -- my skin is in this game.
posted by Bryant at 10:20 AM on March 31 [5 favorites]
Peoples Town Halls signing up for one of these will also show you a bunch of other options, like phone banking for Wisconsin. If that race didn't matter Elon Musk wouldn't be spending tens of millions of dollars to flip the state supreme court.
Hands Off! the big rallies on April 5th. No amount of rallying will remove Trump and Musk from government but still important not to just passively let this happen. A lot of ex feds going to these who could use the moral encouragement that we SEE what is happening to them. Same with people in danger of being deported, who may not feel safe to attend a rally. If it is safe for you to attend you can help them feel less isolated and unseen.
General Strike US, Tesla Takedown, Never Again Action - the strength of these groups is that 99.9% of what they do is fully above board and legal, so very low risk for most people who aren't already vulnerable, BUT if you do have the ability to take on extra risk, you might find an opportunity there.
If Tesla Takedown wasn't working, the government wouldn't be currently trying to criminalize it....
I need the Trump admin to keep making stupid moves to piss off veterans and law enforcement, so that cops have no incentive to cooperate with ICE or arrest protestors.
posted by subdee at 10:27 AM on March 31 [6 favorites]
Hands Off! the big rallies on April 5th. No amount of rallying will remove Trump and Musk from government but still important not to just passively let this happen. A lot of ex feds going to these who could use the moral encouragement that we SEE what is happening to them. Same with people in danger of being deported, who may not feel safe to attend a rally. If it is safe for you to attend you can help them feel less isolated and unseen.
General Strike US, Tesla Takedown, Never Again Action - the strength of these groups is that 99.9% of what they do is fully above board and legal, so very low risk for most people who aren't already vulnerable, BUT if you do have the ability to take on extra risk, you might find an opportunity there.
If Tesla Takedown wasn't working, the government wouldn't be currently trying to criminalize it....
I need the Trump admin to keep making stupid moves to piss off veterans and law enforcement, so that cops have no incentive to cooperate with ICE or arrest protestors.
posted by subdee at 10:27 AM on March 31 [6 favorites]
BTW on a lighter note, I think the Signal scandal is relatively effective when it comes to getting more people to wake up. There is something I feel in the air, some sense of outrage across all societal boundaries. Maybe it's because it's so easy to understand or because so many people know former or active military folks.
Kendall Brown is a woman whose husband is deployed near Yemen, and she started blowing up all over social media attacking Pete Hegseth and the other participants for "putting my husband's life in danger". But the biggest reason she turned to social media is that she attempted to meet with her own (Republican) senator, Markwayne Mullin, first - and he blew her off. When news about her campaign broke, news outlets reached out to Senator Mullin for comment - and he blew them off too. But then Senator Mullin posted his own video downplaying things - and Brown has released her own response video.
What gives me hope is that she's not the only one, and lots of other pilots are PISSED. I tell myself that maybe this is a sign that Trump wouldn't be able to coordinate a military response to anything because the military (or at least a big chunk of it) is turning against him.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 10:30 AM on March 31 [13 favorites]
Kendall Brown is a woman whose husband is deployed near Yemen, and she started blowing up all over social media attacking Pete Hegseth and the other participants for "putting my husband's life in danger". But the biggest reason she turned to social media is that she attempted to meet with her own (Republican) senator, Markwayne Mullin, first - and he blew her off. When news about her campaign broke, news outlets reached out to Senator Mullin for comment - and he blew them off too. But then Senator Mullin posted his own video downplaying things - and Brown has released her own response video.
What gives me hope is that she's not the only one, and lots of other pilots are PISSED. I tell myself that maybe this is a sign that Trump wouldn't be able to coordinate a military response to anything because the military (or at least a big chunk of it) is turning against him.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 10:30 AM on March 31 [13 favorites]
Rally for Patients Rights here's another one, this one is about cuts to Medicaid and whether it is legal for states to say no Medicaid dollars can go to Planned Parenthood. There's busses going down to this from all along the East Coast.
posted by subdee at 10:34 AM on March 31 [4 favorites]
posted by subdee at 10:34 AM on March 31 [4 favorites]
Most people think fascism is a misguided desire to improve living conditions, when it is simply a spectator cruelty and sick-minded entertainment. Medieval mobs showed up to watch hangings and mutilations, imposing social order below a dictator. Nazis were likewise infamous for burning villagers alive in barns, like a form of sacrifice to their gods. It is a prehistoric big-man tribalism and cult authority.
posted by Brian B. at 10:38 AM on March 31 [5 favorites]
posted by Brian B. at 10:38 AM on March 31 [5 favorites]
@microscone and @Bryant - same and same. I hope I wasn't being too creepy to the young people by saying, "Thank you for showing up!" too enthusiastically at my weekly Tesla Takedown. We're still mostly GenX and Boomers, plus a smattering of Silent Gen heroes.
Anybody that is able to show up to a protest, I would encourage you to do so, if just for self-care and energizing reasons. We need to pay attention to what's happening around us, but it is exhausting and I swear to you that getting a thumbs up from a city bus driver is a wonderful feeling. The "regular talk" big oaf (complimentary) that joined us this week was great as well.
I know we need to do more, but we're not all judges or prestigious law firm partners, we're not all university presidents, we're not all newspaper editors.
posted by queensissy at 10:41 AM on March 31 [4 favorites]
Anybody that is able to show up to a protest, I would encourage you to do so, if just for self-care and energizing reasons. We need to pay attention to what's happening around us, but it is exhausting and I swear to you that getting a thumbs up from a city bus driver is a wonderful feeling. The "regular talk" big oaf (complimentary) that joined us this week was great as well.
I know we need to do more, but we're not all judges or prestigious law firm partners, we're not all university presidents, we're not all newspaper editors.
posted by queensissy at 10:41 AM on March 31 [4 favorites]
> They are being told that they are entitled to basically female slaves, and are angry they don't have them.
Yes, radicalization of young men is real — but framing it as a desire for “female slaves” is part of why the problem festers. It’s not just right-wing rhetoric pulling them in; it’s also the left’s failure to make space for flawed, confused, or emotionally wounded men.
Reasonable men know Andrew Tate is poison. But when the alternative is being told they’re inherently dangerous, or mocked for being vulnerable, where do you think they’ll turn?
There’s a meme: “Would you rather talk to a tree or a woman?” That’s not just incel nonsense — it reflects how many men feel emotionally safer outside human relationships. That’s a massive societal failure.
The left had a chance to build bridges — to welcome imperfect allies, to de-radicalize instead of vilify. Instead, it demanded purity. It mocked, canceled, and excluded. The result? The manosphere filled the gap.
This isn’t about sex or harems. It’s about connection, loneliness, and trust. Ignore that, and you’re just helping the manosphere grow.
And this doesn’t stop at gender. The same forces that alienate young men push people away from progressive politics entirely. If you want coalition-building, if you want to beat the far right, you need to stop turning potential allies into enemies. Culture war fights don’t stay online — they shape elections. Lose these men, and you lose the future.
posted by fragmede at 11:17 AM on March 31 [19 favorites]
Yes, radicalization of young men is real — but framing it as a desire for “female slaves” is part of why the problem festers. It’s not just right-wing rhetoric pulling them in; it’s also the left’s failure to make space for flawed, confused, or emotionally wounded men.
Reasonable men know Andrew Tate is poison. But when the alternative is being told they’re inherently dangerous, or mocked for being vulnerable, where do you think they’ll turn?
There’s a meme: “Would you rather talk to a tree or a woman?” That’s not just incel nonsense — it reflects how many men feel emotionally safer outside human relationships. That’s a massive societal failure.
The left had a chance to build bridges — to welcome imperfect allies, to de-radicalize instead of vilify. Instead, it demanded purity. It mocked, canceled, and excluded. The result? The manosphere filled the gap.
This isn’t about sex or harems. It’s about connection, loneliness, and trust. Ignore that, and you’re just helping the manosphere grow.
And this doesn’t stop at gender. The same forces that alienate young men push people away from progressive politics entirely. If you want coalition-building, if you want to beat the far right, you need to stop turning potential allies into enemies. Culture war fights don’t stay online — they shape elections. Lose these men, and you lose the future.
posted by fragmede at 11:17 AM on March 31 [19 favorites]
Protests are good. Using encrypted communications for organizing, for communicating in general (or even better, keeping sensitive communication offline and normalizing not carrying a phone all the time) is imperative. It's not my story to tell, but in the 2008 RNC (which was in St. Paul, where I was living at the time) I can attest with 100% certainty that there were people who were arrested because of things they stupidly wrote in emails sent from (IIRC) Hotmail accounts. These were people who were concerned back then about proto-fascist tendencies in the American government. Folks need to take the implications of the things they're protesting against seriously.
Just in a general sense, it is long past time for the American left to get a lot less self-indulgent and a lot more sophisticated about dealing with reality as it exists rather than as they wish it to be.
@DirtyOldTown, to your point, we all wish there was something we could do that was more likely to be effective. Right now, that means building these networks in real space and establishing common conceptual language for engaging with what might be coming.
We all see the road we're on. If we want to be able to do something about it, we need to plan accordingly.
posted by Smedly, Butlerian jihadi at 11:27 AM on March 31 [7 favorites]
Just in a general sense, it is long past time for the American left to get a lot less self-indulgent and a lot more sophisticated about dealing with reality as it exists rather than as they wish it to be.
@DirtyOldTown, to your point, we all wish there was something we could do that was more likely to be effective. Right now, that means building these networks in real space and establishing common conceptual language for engaging with what might be coming.
We all see the road we're on. If we want to be able to do something about it, we need to plan accordingly.
posted by Smedly, Butlerian jihadi at 11:27 AM on March 31 [7 favorites]
I'm going to a couple of protests this weekend. I've been stewing in my own juices too long, and it will be good to be around like-minded people and out of this house for awhile.
It's not my first, I protested George W. and the invasion of Iraq, and most recently, the Women's March. They are incredibly energizing.
I understand the fear, because I've been feeling it. But, If I'm not going to run off to Canada, then I feel like the only other viable option is to stand up and fight.
Whatever happens in the next four years, the change is irrevocable. Hoping that everything will go back to normal is a completely normal and (imo) dangerous way to approach what's happening now. If we all get together to fight the 800 (such a small number!) billionaires that are trying to take this country, maybe at the end of this, we have something stronger, and better for everyone.
I was hoping for a quiet, mellow retirement. I was ready to status the fuck out of that quo, but sometimes the universe has other ideas. And it pisses me off, and it makes me sad, and I'm grieving for the fantasy I had of what my final years would look like, and....and I'm going to go make myself heard. I'm going to use that sadness, and that anger, and work for a better timeline.
Their power is money and fear, our power is in numbers, and in the fact that we are normal, functioning social, feeling human beings, that when things get darkest, are at our best, helping our friends, our neighbors, and strangers alike, because we're all we've got.
Here are some resources I've found to help focus my energy.
indivisible.org/take-action-now
mobilize.us
handsoff2025.com
teslatakedown.com
chopwoodcarrywaterdailyactions.substack.com
meditationsinanemergency.com
resist.bot
5calls.org
posted by chromecow at 11:29 AM on March 31 [30 favorites]
It's not my first, I protested George W. and the invasion of Iraq, and most recently, the Women's March. They are incredibly energizing.
I understand the fear, because I've been feeling it. But, If I'm not going to run off to Canada, then I feel like the only other viable option is to stand up and fight.
Whatever happens in the next four years, the change is irrevocable. Hoping that everything will go back to normal is a completely normal and (imo) dangerous way to approach what's happening now. If we all get together to fight the 800 (such a small number!) billionaires that are trying to take this country, maybe at the end of this, we have something stronger, and better for everyone.
I was hoping for a quiet, mellow retirement. I was ready to status the fuck out of that quo, but sometimes the universe has other ideas. And it pisses me off, and it makes me sad, and I'm grieving for the fantasy I had of what my final years would look like, and....and I'm going to go make myself heard. I'm going to use that sadness, and that anger, and work for a better timeline.
Their power is money and fear, our power is in numbers, and in the fact that we are normal, functioning social, feeling human beings, that when things get darkest, are at our best, helping our friends, our neighbors, and strangers alike, because we're all we've got.
Here are some resources I've found to help focus my energy.
indivisible.org/take-action-now
mobilize.us
handsoff2025.com
teslatakedown.com
chopwoodcarrywaterdailyactions.substack.com
meditationsinanemergency.com
resist.bot
5calls.org
posted by chromecow at 11:29 AM on March 31 [30 favorites]
But I am le tired
posted by dry white toast at 11:45 AM on March 31 [1 favorite]
posted by dry white toast at 11:45 AM on March 31 [1 favorite]
At a recent Tesla Takedown in Seattle I couldn't help but notice that the demographics skewed pretty old; out of 80 people only a few were under 40. I expect that "online-ism" to be a significant factor here... they've gotta start showing up.
Young people are more likely to work the kinds of jobs that have unpredictable hours and no PTO. If you have to choose between paying your rent and going to the protest rent is going to win. You'll start going to the protests when you lose your job, or when your rent becomes so obscene that you couldn't pay it with three jobs so you have given up. (But before your homelessness makes it so that you must devote 100% of your energy to pure survival.)
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 11:55 AM on March 31 [12 favorites]
Young people are more likely to work the kinds of jobs that have unpredictable hours and no PTO. If you have to choose between paying your rent and going to the protest rent is going to win. You'll start going to the protests when you lose your job, or when your rent becomes so obscene that you couldn't pay it with three jobs so you have given up. (But before your homelessness makes it so that you must devote 100% of your energy to pure survival.)
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 11:55 AM on March 31 [12 favorites]
Join a group, find the mutual aid group in your area, take a class, have a block party. Just go out and BUILD COMMUNITY. Building community provides the petri dish that activism can grow in. Form a union, join the PTA, run for office, just go out there and get involved.
You will hear something from someone in your sewing club that is relevant to a member of your union, and you can get together with your bowling team to raise money for...you get the idea.
Online spaces should be tools for facilitating these connections, to make them easier, not to replace them.
Here is an example, I joined a mutual aid group in my area to do some gardening, through that group I heard about some folks doing a "free store" where you take stuff people toss out, fix it up and give it away to folks that need it free of charge, at that store we heard about ICE grabbing people off the street, which connected me with a training to create an ICE watch group and we are now sending know your rights material to at risk communities and setting up a hotline to protect immigrants.
I would have never in a million years run into these folks in this order if I had not been going to seed swaps and helping people get fresh produce with a garden club. We use slack and other online tools to help make all that possible, but its not where the action is.
posted by stilgar at 12:00 PM on March 31 [15 favorites]
You will hear something from someone in your sewing club that is relevant to a member of your union, and you can get together with your bowling team to raise money for...you get the idea.
Online spaces should be tools for facilitating these connections, to make them easier, not to replace them.
Here is an example, I joined a mutual aid group in my area to do some gardening, through that group I heard about some folks doing a "free store" where you take stuff people toss out, fix it up and give it away to folks that need it free of charge, at that store we heard about ICE grabbing people off the street, which connected me with a training to create an ICE watch group and we are now sending know your rights material to at risk communities and setting up a hotline to protect immigrants.
I would have never in a million years run into these folks in this order if I had not been going to seed swaps and helping people get fresh produce with a garden club. We use slack and other online tools to help make all that possible, but its not where the action is.
posted by stilgar at 12:00 PM on March 31 [15 favorites]
It’s not just right-wing rhetoric pulling them in; it’s also the left’s failure to make space for flawed, confused, or emotionally wounded men.
you may be right, I'm not sure, I have not studied this issue with any doggedness. I will say, it's a problem and my failure to learn and understand the problem is a problem.
something about the way you framed this really rubs me the wrong way, and I don't trust my immediate reaction. I think a lot of things go into what's happening with a lot of young men, I think there's a human tendency to look for simple answers, and the "leftist" spaces I frequent incessantly debate and discuss things and one person's solution is several people's "well actually" moment and we seem to tell each other why this is not good enough, and that is more complicated and can't be reduced to (etc).
there is also a way, here in N. America certainly, we are pushing against a tidal, generational pull. My entire lifetime is observing conventions about what it means to be a boy, then a man, in the world. I'm told what this means, the clothes I wear are largely a product of these norms, the things I do are inherited from attitudes that go back for(ever), to some extent.
yesterday I learned that my niece found a guy's Insta account, he's adjacent to her friend circles in school and she found out he has an interest in her, and his Insta has clips of the girls at volleyball practice and there's one of him with a handgun in his lap, in a car, and this shit is really freaking me out. I don't understand boys anymore, and I know a few really great young men. My own brain is fractured and I have very negative thoughts about my idea of young men, to whatever degree it's accurate.
I'm not sure "the left" is the problem but to the extent we have a Fucking Problem I'm just open to hearing from others
posted by ginger.beef at 12:06 PM on March 31 [11 favorites]
you may be right, I'm not sure, I have not studied this issue with any doggedness. I will say, it's a problem and my failure to learn and understand the problem is a problem.
something about the way you framed this really rubs me the wrong way, and I don't trust my immediate reaction. I think a lot of things go into what's happening with a lot of young men, I think there's a human tendency to look for simple answers, and the "leftist" spaces I frequent incessantly debate and discuss things and one person's solution is several people's "well actually" moment and we seem to tell each other why this is not good enough, and that is more complicated and can't be reduced to (etc).
there is also a way, here in N. America certainly, we are pushing against a tidal, generational pull. My entire lifetime is observing conventions about what it means to be a boy, then a man, in the world. I'm told what this means, the clothes I wear are largely a product of these norms, the things I do are inherited from attitudes that go back for(ever), to some extent.
yesterday I learned that my niece found a guy's Insta account, he's adjacent to her friend circles in school and she found out he has an interest in her, and his Insta has clips of the girls at volleyball practice and there's one of him with a handgun in his lap, in a car, and this shit is really freaking me out. I don't understand boys anymore, and I know a few really great young men. My own brain is fractured and I have very negative thoughts about my idea of young men, to whatever degree it's accurate.
I'm not sure "the left" is the problem but to the extent we have a Fucking Problem I'm just open to hearing from others
posted by ginger.beef at 12:06 PM on March 31 [11 favorites]
>To use the WWII analogy people love so much... Would I hide the Franks? Absolutely. Would I smuggle babies out of a camp? Yes, of course.
It doesn't start with hiding the Franks. It starts with meeting the Franks and demonstrating that you are trustworthy enough for them to justify putting their lives in your hands. That starts with mutual aid, or even with just talking to your neighbors.
Tangentially related and for those curious about what collective action looks like under pervasive surveillance, The Battle of Algiers continues to stand out as one of the best films on structured clandestine resistance. But don't take my word for it.
posted by Richard Saunders at 12:08 PM on March 31 [17 favorites]
It doesn't start with hiding the Franks. It starts with meeting the Franks and demonstrating that you are trustworthy enough for them to justify putting their lives in your hands. That starts with mutual aid, or even with just talking to your neighbors.
Tangentially related and for those curious about what collective action looks like under pervasive surveillance, The Battle of Algiers continues to stand out as one of the best films on structured clandestine resistance. But don't take my word for it.
posted by Richard Saunders at 12:08 PM on March 31 [17 favorites]
Battle Of Algiers made me understand a lot of things - excellent suggestion!
posted by queensissy at 12:19 PM on March 31 [2 favorites]
posted by queensissy at 12:19 PM on March 31 [2 favorites]
Anybody that is able to show up to a protest, I would encourage you to do so, if just for self-care and energizing reasons.
I'm a giant introvert: there's nothing that would DE-energize me more than having to be in a giant crowd of loud people. Just thinking about it gives me the howling fantods. In fairness, I don't post gotcha memes on social media, either. I don't actually think we're at the point yet where protest is going to do a lot to move the needle: right now, TFG's approval rating is still in the 40s, though it's dropping pretty rapidly. This means that protests can still be seen as "well of course the Dummycrats hate our leader". Once the people who voted for him out of egg price concerns peel off, THEN large-scale protests become more useful. I am willing to admit that at least some of that is just me being a huge introvert.
It’s not just right-wing rhetoric pulling them in; it’s also the left’s failure to make space for flawed, confused, or emotionally wounded men.
I'm not sure "the left" is the problem
The only reason I'm not going to say, "Yeah, the left is totally the problem", is because I spend no time in right-wing spaces, so I've no basis for comparison. But while there are individual leftists who have a big tent attitude, the whole reason I got the hell out of leftist spaces back in the late 90s was that a) the purity tests and b) the, for lack of a better term, reverse discrimination in many of these spaces (they can, though not always, be real hostile to men and to white people) really drive folks away. The right wing is super good at "hey, come on in" and the left (again, not universally) has this "oh look, you're not already on board with or are unaware of part of our whole agenda, fuck off". Imagine which one is going to be more attractive to a young white guy who's only just sussed out that the system sucks. I don't have a solution for this.
posted by outgrown_hobnail at 12:54 PM on March 31 [5 favorites]
I'm a giant introvert: there's nothing that would DE-energize me more than having to be in a giant crowd of loud people. Just thinking about it gives me the howling fantods. In fairness, I don't post gotcha memes on social media, either. I don't actually think we're at the point yet where protest is going to do a lot to move the needle: right now, TFG's approval rating is still in the 40s, though it's dropping pretty rapidly. This means that protests can still be seen as "well of course the Dummycrats hate our leader". Once the people who voted for him out of egg price concerns peel off, THEN large-scale protests become more useful. I am willing to admit that at least some of that is just me being a huge introvert.
It’s not just right-wing rhetoric pulling them in; it’s also the left’s failure to make space for flawed, confused, or emotionally wounded men.
I'm not sure "the left" is the problem
The only reason I'm not going to say, "Yeah, the left is totally the problem", is because I spend no time in right-wing spaces, so I've no basis for comparison. But while there are individual leftists who have a big tent attitude, the whole reason I got the hell out of leftist spaces back in the late 90s was that a) the purity tests and b) the, for lack of a better term, reverse discrimination in many of these spaces (they can, though not always, be real hostile to men and to white people) really drive folks away. The right wing is super good at "hey, come on in" and the left (again, not universally) has this "oh look, you're not already on board with or are unaware of part of our whole agenda, fuck off". Imagine which one is going to be more attractive to a young white guy who's only just sussed out that the system sucks. I don't have a solution for this.
posted by outgrown_hobnail at 12:54 PM on March 31 [5 favorites]
I'm not sure "the left" is the problem but to the extent we have a Fucking Problem I'm just open to hearing from others
I thought Caitlin Moran's "What About Men?" book was an excellent read on the topic.
The original is paywalled, but I found a GetPocket link to a Vox article (not sure how that is for accessibility, but here's some relevant text over here) about how do you resist without ruining your life. I admit that I always figured I'd be all "I'll hide Jews from the Nazi's!"* reading about WWII my entire life, but being in a world situation like this has made me suddenly go "I wanna hide*" because I've been having people taking pot shots at me on a micro level for a long time and now that I'm out of it, I'm all OH GOD I DON'T WANT ANYONE COMING AFTER ME FOR BEING ME ANY DAMN MORE. And I'm not even first against the wall, technically/statistically speaking. I'm still caught between making grumbly comments online and thinking maybe I should shut up and button everywhere just in case. I haven't gotten up the nerve to go to a protest yet and I'm not sure if I feel safe doing so any more. The spirit is willing but the brain is all HIDE HIDE HIDE.*
* where, under my yarn collection?
posted by jenfullmoon at 12:54 PM on March 31 [4 favorites]
I thought Caitlin Moran's "What About Men?" book was an excellent read on the topic.
The original is paywalled, but I found a GetPocket link to a Vox article (not sure how that is for accessibility, but here's some relevant text over here) about how do you resist without ruining your life. I admit that I always figured I'd be all "I'll hide Jews from the Nazi's!"* reading about WWII my entire life, but being in a world situation like this has made me suddenly go "I wanna hide*" because I've been having people taking pot shots at me on a micro level for a long time and now that I'm out of it, I'm all OH GOD I DON'T WANT ANYONE COMING AFTER ME FOR BEING ME ANY DAMN MORE. And I'm not even first against the wall, technically/statistically speaking. I'm still caught between making grumbly comments online and thinking maybe I should shut up and button everywhere just in case. I haven't gotten up the nerve to go to a protest yet and I'm not sure if I feel safe doing so any more. The spirit is willing but the brain is all HIDE HIDE HIDE.*
* where, under my yarn collection?
posted by jenfullmoon at 12:54 PM on March 31 [4 favorites]
I’ve been going to protests since approximately the dawn of time or the mid 80s, whichever came first. It becomes discouraging: there was a bumper sticker on my truck that said I Can’t Believe I’m Still Protesting This Shit and in fact I had the same bumper sticker stuck on a t-shirt for a while. I mean, here we are again/always. Still! I keep going! Even though in the 80s everyone at protests seemed young and angry and now, inexplicably, they are all old and angry. I get why younger people don’t protest, btw. I have two of them living with me and both of them are always at work. Yet they cannot afford to move out. That is the world we have built for them and it sucks completely.
Am I being put on a list? Honey, if I am not already on that list than I am ashamed: clearly I have been living my life wrong. Here’s the thing: even in this panopticon age, lists can only get so long. If everyone is on it then it’s much less useful. They can’t actually round up everyone. El Salvador cannot hold the population of the US. This country is gigantic. The more people who show up, the better. The longer the lists, the better for those of us on them.
But as to TFA, he’s right. There’s an FPP right now, an interview with China Mieville, where he says that social media is actively bad for people and I must say I have come to agree. I love social media. I will lay in bed for hours, scrolling through. But I have to put my phone down and get off my ass again. We all do, whether it’s protests or whatever else thing we can do. Otherwise we might not get on the list and the list? The list is a place of honor.
posted by mygothlaundry at 1:32 PM on March 31 [21 favorites]
Am I being put on a list? Honey, if I am not already on that list than I am ashamed: clearly I have been living my life wrong. Here’s the thing: even in this panopticon age, lists can only get so long. If everyone is on it then it’s much less useful. They can’t actually round up everyone. El Salvador cannot hold the population of the US. This country is gigantic. The more people who show up, the better. The longer the lists, the better for those of us on them.
But as to TFA, he’s right. There’s an FPP right now, an interview with China Mieville, where he says that social media is actively bad for people and I must say I have come to agree. I love social media. I will lay in bed for hours, scrolling through. But I have to put my phone down and get off my ass again. We all do, whether it’s protests or whatever else thing we can do. Otherwise we might not get on the list and the list? The list is a place of honor.
posted by mygothlaundry at 1:32 PM on March 31 [21 favorites]
"When there is nothing left to burn, you have to set yourself on fire."
posted by kirkaracha at 1:48 PM on March 31 [3 favorites]
posted by kirkaracha at 1:48 PM on March 31 [3 favorites]
> I can attend protests that are far more likely to result in mass arrests than to produce even incremental change.
> I don't think marches and demonstrations are useless, even if they don't change the minds of people in power. They can be empowering for participants and for onlookers.
I think one thing we need to remember is that there's a further point of protest, especially mass rallies, in a democracy. Protests give our cause ongoing political legitimacy. Protesting for something your reps agree with but aren't doing enough about gives them permission to act further, if they are willing to see it and use it.
Having elected officials willing to actually do something once they have that permission is, unfortunately, a different hurdle.
Anyway that's why I was at Tufts last Wednesday, and why I'm going to be marching on Boston Common on Saturday. Maybe it will help embolden someone in power.
posted by atbash at 1:56 PM on March 31 [10 favorites]
> I don't think marches and demonstrations are useless, even if they don't change the minds of people in power. They can be empowering for participants and for onlookers.
I think one thing we need to remember is that there's a further point of protest, especially mass rallies, in a democracy. Protests give our cause ongoing political legitimacy. Protesting for something your reps agree with but aren't doing enough about gives them permission to act further, if they are willing to see it and use it.
Having elected officials willing to actually do something once they have that permission is, unfortunately, a different hurdle.
Anyway that's why I was at Tufts last Wednesday, and why I'm going to be marching on Boston Common on Saturday. Maybe it will help embolden someone in power.
posted by atbash at 1:56 PM on March 31 [10 favorites]
Once the people who voted for him out of egg price concerns peel off, THEN large-scale protests become more useful.
This is true, but it's also true that doing the legwork now lays the ground for large-scale protests. The reason Tesla Takedown has been getting media coverage and traction is because even some of the hard-core Trump fans don't much like Musk. Again, there's no obligatory right amount of street protesting anyone needs to be doing, but they're certainly useful now.
posted by Bryant at 2:04 PM on March 31 [9 favorites]
This is true, but it's also true that doing the legwork now lays the ground for large-scale protests. The reason Tesla Takedown has been getting media coverage and traction is because even some of the hard-core Trump fans don't much like Musk. Again, there's no obligatory right amount of street protesting anyone needs to be doing, but they're certainly useful now.
posted by Bryant at 2:04 PM on March 31 [9 favorites]
My area of activism is safe cycling. It's self-serving because I ride my bike for commuting and for fun and would rather not be hit by a car while doing it. I'll attend group rides and events to help show that there actually is a large number of people interested in this and that even in the winter it's usually fine to ride your bike. 2 years ago our local city councillor joined a December "Santa Claus Ride" on an ebike that was provided to her and it helped her realize that you actually can get around by bike and that you feel a lot safer when there is some barrier between you and the cars. Last year her office did a fairly ambitious community ride (about 24km) and I helped with route planning and marshalling on the day of. She's already starting to plan another one for this year. Before she became a councillor all of her communication was maintaining space for cars and keeping driving time down. Now I'd say she's neutral to slightly positive as far as putting in more infrastructure is concerned.
The other thing I'll do is go to community meetings and consultations where the city is either looking for input on where to put in infrastructure, or once they have it planned to provide specific feedback to help make it better. The city will make note of the number of people that provide comments and what the comments were and factor that into their plans. Similarly with email campaigns or making submissions to city council. If nothing else staffers will be reading them and tracking responses and use those numbers to help justify their decisions (in Toronto the planning and transportation staff seem to be in favour of cycling infrastructure in general so it's more a matter of convincing local councillors that there is actual support for it). Keyboard warrioring can help if it's directed at the right people and not just to randos on your social media but it's too easy. When politicians and staff see that a large amount of people are actually willing to come to a place and give their opinion then they give those people more attention.
Incidentally I had a disagreement with some police last week on my way from home. I got myself out of a ticket by pulling up some email correspondence I had from the city on that very topic. So if you're lucky activisim might give you a get out of jail free card too.
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 2:26 PM on March 31 [11 favorites]
The other thing I'll do is go to community meetings and consultations where the city is either looking for input on where to put in infrastructure, or once they have it planned to provide specific feedback to help make it better. The city will make note of the number of people that provide comments and what the comments were and factor that into their plans. Similarly with email campaigns or making submissions to city council. If nothing else staffers will be reading them and tracking responses and use those numbers to help justify their decisions (in Toronto the planning and transportation staff seem to be in favour of cycling infrastructure in general so it's more a matter of convincing local councillors that there is actual support for it). Keyboard warrioring can help if it's directed at the right people and not just to randos on your social media but it's too easy. When politicians and staff see that a large amount of people are actually willing to come to a place and give their opinion then they give those people more attention.
Incidentally I had a disagreement with some police last week on my way from home. I got myself out of a ticket by pulling up some email correspondence I had from the city on that very topic. So if you're lucky activisim might give you a get out of jail free card too.
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 2:26 PM on March 31 [11 favorites]
Around cycling, if you country has laws against close passes or similar, then you could set up bike and helmet cameras, and simply turn in the people who break those laws. This seems pretty effective while those laws exist.
atbash> "Protests give our cause ongoing political legitimacy. Protesting for something your reps agree with but aren't doing enough about gives them permission to act further, if they are willing to see it and use it."
This is true even when the left already won the election.
As I understand it, the French have plenty of vacations largely becuase once when the real left held power those politicians encuraged union strikes, maybe quietly, during which the buisness interests had zero hope for government help, beyond negotiations for mandatory vacation. It's vaguely like the flood the zone strategy, except reversed so that buisness interests feel everything collapsing around them.
Around Peter Turchin's analysis, there is no way the left could hold power long-term using this strategy however, because all elites, even leftist ones, shall always overproduce and push their wealth pump, at which point they become fake lefts ala neoliberals ala Democrats. You'll then have some revolution where some counter elite unseat the fake left, then rince repeat until the wealth pumps finally shut down.
You could however codify predistributive policies, like labor rights, even more deeply, like into a constitution, so then the fake left cannot shut down labor ala Clinton. This would buy you longer between necessary revolutions.
posted by jeffburdges at 2:35 PM on March 31 [4 favorites]
atbash> "Protests give our cause ongoing political legitimacy. Protesting for something your reps agree with but aren't doing enough about gives them permission to act further, if they are willing to see it and use it."
This is true even when the left already won the election.
As I understand it, the French have plenty of vacations largely becuase once when the real left held power those politicians encuraged union strikes, maybe quietly, during which the buisness interests had zero hope for government help, beyond negotiations for mandatory vacation. It's vaguely like the flood the zone strategy, except reversed so that buisness interests feel everything collapsing around them.
Around Peter Turchin's analysis, there is no way the left could hold power long-term using this strategy however, because all elites, even leftist ones, shall always overproduce and push their wealth pump, at which point they become fake lefts ala neoliberals ala Democrats. You'll then have some revolution where some counter elite unseat the fake left, then rince repeat until the wealth pumps finally shut down.
You could however codify predistributive policies, like labor rights, even more deeply, like into a constitution, so then the fake left cannot shut down labor ala Clinton. This would buy you longer between necessary revolutions.
posted by jeffburdges at 2:35 PM on March 31 [4 favorites]
If you would like some data-backed evidence for the importance of protests, I recommend this thread from
Omar Wasow. I’ve found him to be a thoughtful, well grounded voice in the past.
posted by Bryant at 3:21 PM on March 31 [5 favorites]
Omar Wasow. I’ve found him to be a thoughtful, well grounded voice in the past.
posted by Bryant at 3:21 PM on March 31 [5 favorites]
Metafilter: You Can't Post Your Way Out of Fascism
I'm going to try anyways
posted by Reverend John at 3:54 PM on March 31 [4 favorites]
I'm going to try anyways
posted by Reverend John at 3:54 PM on March 31 [4 favorites]
is being told they’re inherently dangerous, or mocked for being vulnerable
The left had a chance to build bridges — to welcome imperfect allies, to de-radicalize instead of vilify. Instead, it demanded purity. It mocked, canceled, and excluded
These sort of general assertions are very common and getting more so. Here's my problem with this - who is saying this to these young men? Where? When? Where's your examples? Show me the TikTok's and the Insta Reels and the DM's and the official statements from Dem Congresspeople and popular liberal social media folks. Is AOC mocking men on Xitter and Bluesky? Is r/politics full of posts and comments claiming young straight men are dangerous? Is Josh Marshall from Talking Points Memo calling young straight men evil? Is Jamelle Bouie from the NYT writing op-eds about how all white men are guilty of SA unless proven otherwise?
An awful lot of people are absolutely CERTAIN this "the left's" fault for purity testing and excluding . . . but c'mon, these aren't guys trying to join the local Misandrist Romantasy Book Club & Political Action Committee and getting the bum's rush because they can't parse the difference between Andrea Dworkin and Susan Faludi. These are dudes watching YouTube and their NFL TV subscription and skimming Reddit. Show me where they're getting this purity testing and exclusion from.
And, OK, I get it, maybe this is more "vibes" and cultural zeitgeist and specific examples are hard to come by.
Which THEN raises some further questions or maybe oppositional assertions. Namely, 1) it is very very very obvious that the right wing spends a lot of time and effort (and have done so for decades) pretending and asserting that the most extreme "leftist" positions are mainstream attitudes in the larger tent of the Democratic Party and liberalism in general. Rush Limbaugh made a gazillion dollars pretending that a "Men Suck" sign held by a 19-year-old college student was a policy statement endorsed by the Clinton administration. And so 2) are they getting this "purity testing" direct from the leftists' mouths? Or are they getting it second, third, or fourth hand, where they're checking out Joe Rogan's podcast because they want his take on last night's MMA fight and it turns out that his guest is some hack comedian griping about how "you can't make jokes anymore, people are too sensitive"? Are they getting it from checking out a YouTube video on proper deadlift techniques and the algorithm feeds them an Andrew Tate pimpin' video next? How much of this is "when you're used to privilege, equality feels like oppression"?
AND, y'know, none of this really fucking matters anyway because THESE YOUNG MEN HAVE AGENCY. They're legally and morally adults. They can CHOOSE to consider their own culpability and participation in the culture we live in. They can CHOOSE to spend five fucking minutes on their own investigating if Trump or Andrew Tate or Joe Rogan are full of shit & reading or listening or watching people who can provide evidence on how full of shit they are. They can CHOOSE to vote for Trump. Or not. Willful ignorance is no excuse.
And if they can't handle women or POC or LGBTQ+ people noting that people like them are responsible for an awful lot of pain and suffering and asking them to maybe pay some attention to that? Well, maybe they should just fucking man up and stop being little pissant crybabies about it. You want some classic masculinity? Here ya go - grit your teeth, admit that you might be wrong about some things, and figure out how to solve the things you're wrong about without whining about it, ya fucking sissy. Be fucking responsible, as in "Able to make moral or rational decisions on one's own and therefore answerable for one's behavior" and "Able to be trusted or depended upon; trustworthy or reliable."
In the Masculinity Reeducation Camps of the future Reacher will be on the TVs 24/7, wherein a Very Large Man basically regularly yells "Women's Rights Are Human Rights!!!" just before bashing someone in the kisser with a baseball bat.
posted by soundguy99 at 4:04 PM on March 31 [28 favorites]
The left had a chance to build bridges — to welcome imperfect allies, to de-radicalize instead of vilify. Instead, it demanded purity. It mocked, canceled, and excluded
These sort of general assertions are very common and getting more so. Here's my problem with this - who is saying this to these young men? Where? When? Where's your examples? Show me the TikTok's and the Insta Reels and the DM's and the official statements from Dem Congresspeople and popular liberal social media folks. Is AOC mocking men on Xitter and Bluesky? Is r/politics full of posts and comments claiming young straight men are dangerous? Is Josh Marshall from Talking Points Memo calling young straight men evil? Is Jamelle Bouie from the NYT writing op-eds about how all white men are guilty of SA unless proven otherwise?
An awful lot of people are absolutely CERTAIN this "the left's" fault for purity testing and excluding . . . but c'mon, these aren't guys trying to join the local Misandrist Romantasy Book Club & Political Action Committee and getting the bum's rush because they can't parse the difference between Andrea Dworkin and Susan Faludi. These are dudes watching YouTube and their NFL TV subscription and skimming Reddit. Show me where they're getting this purity testing and exclusion from.
And, OK, I get it, maybe this is more "vibes" and cultural zeitgeist and specific examples are hard to come by.
Which THEN raises some further questions or maybe oppositional assertions. Namely, 1) it is very very very obvious that the right wing spends a lot of time and effort (and have done so for decades) pretending and asserting that the most extreme "leftist" positions are mainstream attitudes in the larger tent of the Democratic Party and liberalism in general. Rush Limbaugh made a gazillion dollars pretending that a "Men Suck" sign held by a 19-year-old college student was a policy statement endorsed by the Clinton administration. And so 2) are they getting this "purity testing" direct from the leftists' mouths? Or are they getting it second, third, or fourth hand, where they're checking out Joe Rogan's podcast because they want his take on last night's MMA fight and it turns out that his guest is some hack comedian griping about how "you can't make jokes anymore, people are too sensitive"? Are they getting it from checking out a YouTube video on proper deadlift techniques and the algorithm feeds them an Andrew Tate pimpin' video next? How much of this is "when you're used to privilege, equality feels like oppression"?
AND, y'know, none of this really fucking matters anyway because THESE YOUNG MEN HAVE AGENCY. They're legally and morally adults. They can CHOOSE to consider their own culpability and participation in the culture we live in. They can CHOOSE to spend five fucking minutes on their own investigating if Trump or Andrew Tate or Joe Rogan are full of shit & reading or listening or watching people who can provide evidence on how full of shit they are. They can CHOOSE to vote for Trump. Or not. Willful ignorance is no excuse.
And if they can't handle women or POC or LGBTQ+ people noting that people like them are responsible for an awful lot of pain and suffering and asking them to maybe pay some attention to that? Well, maybe they should just fucking man up and stop being little pissant crybabies about it. You want some classic masculinity? Here ya go - grit your teeth, admit that you might be wrong about some things, and figure out how to solve the things you're wrong about without whining about it, ya fucking sissy. Be fucking responsible, as in "Able to make moral or rational decisions on one's own and therefore answerable for one's behavior" and "Able to be trusted or depended upon; trustworthy or reliable."
In the Masculinity Reeducation Camps of the future Reacher will be on the TVs 24/7, wherein a Very Large Man basically regularly yells "Women's Rights Are Human Rights!!!" just before bashing someone in the kisser with a baseball bat.
posted by soundguy99 at 4:04 PM on March 31 [28 favorites]
outgrown_hobnail, I'm sure you know what you're talking about and for all I know my comment will only reinforce your beliefs re: so-called leftist spaces, but:
the whole reason I got the hell out of leftist spaces back in the late 90s was that a) the purity tests and b) the, for lack of a better term, reverse discrimination in many of these spaces (they can, though not always, be real hostile to men and to white people)
Surely there's a better term? I wasn't there and I haven't had your experiences, but when someone brings up reverse discrimination I'm not even sure what they mean
posted by ginger.beef at 4:34 PM on March 31 [5 favorites]
the whole reason I got the hell out of leftist spaces back in the late 90s was that a) the purity tests and b) the, for lack of a better term, reverse discrimination in many of these spaces (they can, though not always, be real hostile to men and to white people)
Surely there's a better term? I wasn't there and I haven't had your experiences, but when someone brings up reverse discrimination I'm not even sure what they mean
posted by ginger.beef at 4:34 PM on March 31 [5 favorites]
This isn't quite the right thread for the topic but it is close enough - Senator Cory Booker started filibustering Congress tonight in support of Medicaid.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:29 PM on March 31 [7 favorites]
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:29 PM on March 31 [7 favorites]
Hell yeah! I voted for that guy.
posted by subdee at 7:12 PM on March 31 [3 favorites]
posted by subdee at 7:12 PM on March 31 [3 favorites]
It's not a filibuster. He waited until after business was concluded to begin his speech.
posted by constraint at 7:21 PM on March 31 [3 favorites]
posted by constraint at 7:21 PM on March 31 [3 favorites]
constraint: "It's not a filibuster. He waited until after business was concluded to begin his speech."
Yup. Purely performative bullshit.
posted by adrienneleigh at 7:42 PM on March 31 [2 favorites]
Yup. Purely performative bullshit.
posted by adrienneleigh at 7:42 PM on March 31 [2 favorites]
Surely there's a better term? I wasn't there and I haven't had your experiences, but when someone brings up reverse discrimination I'm not even sure what they mean
The definition's right there in the parentheses. Discrimination based on an inversion of the usual categories of discrimination. I'm sure there is indeed a better term: why don't you go on ahead and tell me what it is? Try to be really condescending when you do, so I can have the authentic leftist space experience.
And if they can't handle women or POC or LGBTQ+ people noting that people like them are responsible for an awful lot of pain and suffering and asking them to maybe pay some attention to that? Well, maybe they should just fucking man up and stop being little pissant crybabies about it.
That's such a perfect example, right there.
posted by outgrown_hobnail at 8:09 PM on March 31 [1 favorite]
The definition's right there in the parentheses. Discrimination based on an inversion of the usual categories of discrimination. I'm sure there is indeed a better term: why don't you go on ahead and tell me what it is? Try to be really condescending when you do, so I can have the authentic leftist space experience.
And if they can't handle women or POC or LGBTQ+ people noting that people like them are responsible for an awful lot of pain and suffering and asking them to maybe pay some attention to that? Well, maybe they should just fucking man up and stop being little pissant crybabies about it.
That's such a perfect example, right there.
posted by outgrown_hobnail at 8:09 PM on March 31 [1 favorite]
Yes, once again let's ask the victims of abuse to hold the hands of the abusers and reassure them that they're good people.
posted by kokaku at 8:23 PM on March 31 [6 favorites]
posted by kokaku at 8:23 PM on March 31 [6 favorites]
Outgrown, have you thought about trying to be the change you want to see in the world? Like rather than coming in to each interaction with a negative and aggressive affect, maybe be a bit more upbeat and welcoming and inviting and willing to meet people you don't agree with half way? Or to put it another way, the 90's were half a lifetime ago, maybe it's time to set that pain down and move on?
posted by Balna Watya at 8:57 PM on March 31 [4 favorites]
posted by Balna Watya at 8:57 PM on March 31 [4 favorites]
outgrown_hobnail I think you can do better than that, you are not a child and petulance is unbecoming. I asked because without knowing precisely how you mean "reverse discrimination" I cannot be sufficiently condescending
posted by ginger.beef at 9:57 PM on March 31 [3 favorites]
posted by ginger.beef at 9:57 PM on March 31 [3 favorites]
> It's not a filibuster.
Yeah. Despite all the talk of how we should ban the filibuster, the truth is we already did when we instituted "dual track" in 1972. That's why we get these performances instead. TBH, I think we should bring it back.
posted by atbash at 10:11 PM on March 31 [2 favorites]
Yeah. Despite all the talk of how we should ban the filibuster, the truth is we already did when we instituted "dual track" in 1972. That's why we get these performances instead. TBH, I think we should bring it back.
posted by atbash at 10:11 PM on March 31 [2 favorites]
It's funny, I am white and male and was in a lot of leftist spaces - like far, far "confiscate property from the wealthy and redistribute it" left - in the 90s and was made to feel quite welcome. It's fascinating how people can have completely different experiences in similar situations.
But you know. If I have common goals with people - even people who I don't like and who don't especially like me - I'm willing to work with them for as long as it takes to achieve those goals. We're not in a social club. We're trying to make a better world.
So maybe that's my other tip for the day. If you and your allies want the same thing, how much you like each other isn't important.
posted by Joey Michaels at 1:00 AM on April 1 [6 favorites]
But you know. If I have common goals with people - even people who I don't like and who don't especially like me - I'm willing to work with them for as long as it takes to achieve those goals. We're not in a social club. We're trying to make a better world.
So maybe that's my other tip for the day. If you and your allies want the same thing, how much you like each other isn't important.
posted by Joey Michaels at 1:00 AM on April 1 [6 favorites]
About the young men:
It is objectively true that the conditions for young men have changed since the early 1980s when I was young. (Note, I'm just writing changed, no value judgement).
In this country, secondary schools were at the time divided into STEM and Humanities lines. There were 4 girls for every 10 boys in the STEM classes, and only 2 of those girls went on to STEM educations. Now the system has changed, but Medicine is majority women, and at the tech university I work at, the ratio is approaching 50-50, at other universities nearby, all the STEM subjects and Law are majority women. For young men, that means that while my male classmates in 1982 could get into any education they wanted and then move on to careers with little effort, my nephews now need to be high achievers in secondary to even get into any education, and then it is a struggle to get on from there. The competition is harder. When I entered Architecture School in 1982, the W/M ratio was 30/70 and the entry grade level was C+. The year after, the ratio was 50/50 and the entry grade level was A. I think this is great. No-one should whine about it, but there is an objective, systemic change.
When I left middle school in 1979, it was possible for kids to just end school and get a job -- even in a time of high unemployment -- and build a career working in trades. Or one could take just one more year at school and learn some typing and accounting and then leave at 16 or 17. Both boys and girls I knew chose this route and were able to build succesfull lives, often taking night courses later to get higher wages. There were powerful unions that protected their rights. Just a few years later came the austerity governments of the 1980s, the unions were broken and there were less opportunities for people with that background. There's a reason the punk movement grew back then. For the young women, there were jobs and career development opportunities within care and other services -- many women rose to middle management. For the young men, manufacturing jobs disappeared and there was no replacement, no opportunities. My friend who took this route doesn't earn much more today, as a house painter, than he did 20 years ago. Another friend eventually became a lab-technician, traditionally a women's job, and built a succesfull career.
Within the trades, industrialization has changed the business immensely during those 40+ years. When I started working on building sites a year or so after entering Architecture School, there were just a few dozen products within each category and a lot was still made on site. The windows and doors and kitchens etc. were all made to the same standards, and the people on site could easily handle them. Now there are gazillions of products and most of the construction process is assembly of uniquely shaped pre-fabricated products, where craft skills are less prized than 3-D modelling. I think this is a mistake for environmental reasons, but that's another story.
Now I am not part of a choir that sings the dream of a return to traditional manufacturing. Robots should do that work, seriously. I've been in those old school factories and no humans should work there. Mines and other extraction businesses are terrible workplaces.
But the Neo-Liberals have from the outset been unable to handle the human and environmental consequences of their economic plans. Neo-Liberal theory is strong, as we can see from the fact that the more conservative governments that took over from Clinton and Blair in the US and UK had to embrace the policies in spite of setting out with other ideas. Trump and his ilk are trying to revolt against it and is also crashing the US economy, creating even more poverty and squalor. I would like to know more about what is going on in Spain, but I don't see they are moving far from the basic Neo-Liberal rules imposed by the EU.
Maybe the world would have been radically different if Al Gore had become president. I don't know. But a lot of the idiocy of the 00s had already started during the 90s. Neo-Liberal economy was creating an environment for young men that was very different from that of their fathers, without providing any education or tools for them to handle it.
Contrarywise, Neo-Liberal educational reforms across the globe have made the world even more difficult for all humans, but specially for boys and men.
It's an environment that is extremely competitive and where in some places, contemporary gender identity is hard to navigate. I get why people get lost. But of course the imagined past that is invoked by the hard right and parts of the hard left is not a solution to anything.
The current young men are sons of a generation that was already lost in the 90s. They are not being offered the guidance and care they need to grow up into loving and responsible adults in this real world. The absurd nostalgia for manufacturing jobs is inherited, a fantasy. Not for all, of course, my sons-in-law are doing great in spite of their low grades and lack of ambition. But to me, it's really hard to see where it goes wrong. Because I teach, I meet a lot of young people, and I can't guess from appearances or backgrounds who are heading in a wrong direction or why. I can't know in advance who can be caught and brought out of the cult.
posted by mumimor at 2:07 AM on April 1 [11 favorites]
It is objectively true that the conditions for young men have changed since the early 1980s when I was young. (Note, I'm just writing changed, no value judgement).
In this country, secondary schools were at the time divided into STEM and Humanities lines. There were 4 girls for every 10 boys in the STEM classes, and only 2 of those girls went on to STEM educations. Now the system has changed, but Medicine is majority women, and at the tech university I work at, the ratio is approaching 50-50, at other universities nearby, all the STEM subjects and Law are majority women. For young men, that means that while my male classmates in 1982 could get into any education they wanted and then move on to careers with little effort, my nephews now need to be high achievers in secondary to even get into any education, and then it is a struggle to get on from there. The competition is harder. When I entered Architecture School in 1982, the W/M ratio was 30/70 and the entry grade level was C+. The year after, the ratio was 50/50 and the entry grade level was A. I think this is great. No-one should whine about it, but there is an objective, systemic change.
When I left middle school in 1979, it was possible for kids to just end school and get a job -- even in a time of high unemployment -- and build a career working in trades. Or one could take just one more year at school and learn some typing and accounting and then leave at 16 or 17. Both boys and girls I knew chose this route and were able to build succesfull lives, often taking night courses later to get higher wages. There were powerful unions that protected their rights. Just a few years later came the austerity governments of the 1980s, the unions were broken and there were less opportunities for people with that background. There's a reason the punk movement grew back then. For the young women, there were jobs and career development opportunities within care and other services -- many women rose to middle management. For the young men, manufacturing jobs disappeared and there was no replacement, no opportunities. My friend who took this route doesn't earn much more today, as a house painter, than he did 20 years ago. Another friend eventually became a lab-technician, traditionally a women's job, and built a succesfull career.
Within the trades, industrialization has changed the business immensely during those 40+ years. When I started working on building sites a year or so after entering Architecture School, there were just a few dozen products within each category and a lot was still made on site. The windows and doors and kitchens etc. were all made to the same standards, and the people on site could easily handle them. Now there are gazillions of products and most of the construction process is assembly of uniquely shaped pre-fabricated products, where craft skills are less prized than 3-D modelling. I think this is a mistake for environmental reasons, but that's another story.
Now I am not part of a choir that sings the dream of a return to traditional manufacturing. Robots should do that work, seriously. I've been in those old school factories and no humans should work there. Mines and other extraction businesses are terrible workplaces.
But the Neo-Liberals have from the outset been unable to handle the human and environmental consequences of their economic plans. Neo-Liberal theory is strong, as we can see from the fact that the more conservative governments that took over from Clinton and Blair in the US and UK had to embrace the policies in spite of setting out with other ideas. Trump and his ilk are trying to revolt against it and is also crashing the US economy, creating even more poverty and squalor. I would like to know more about what is going on in Spain, but I don't see they are moving far from the basic Neo-Liberal rules imposed by the EU.
Maybe the world would have been radically different if Al Gore had become president. I don't know. But a lot of the idiocy of the 00s had already started during the 90s. Neo-Liberal economy was creating an environment for young men that was very different from that of their fathers, without providing any education or tools for them to handle it.
Contrarywise, Neo-Liberal educational reforms across the globe have made the world even more difficult for all humans, but specially for boys and men.
It's an environment that is extremely competitive and where in some places, contemporary gender identity is hard to navigate. I get why people get lost. But of course the imagined past that is invoked by the hard right and parts of the hard left is not a solution to anything.
The current young men are sons of a generation that was already lost in the 90s. They are not being offered the guidance and care they need to grow up into loving and responsible adults in this real world. The absurd nostalgia for manufacturing jobs is inherited, a fantasy. Not for all, of course, my sons-in-law are doing great in spite of their low grades and lack of ambition. But to me, it's really hard to see where it goes wrong. Because I teach, I meet a lot of young people, and I can't guess from appearances or backgrounds who are heading in a wrong direction or why. I can't know in advance who can be caught and brought out of the cult.
posted by mumimor at 2:07 AM on April 1 [11 favorites]
I should say, more accurately, the some lawsuits are succeeding, others are still in the works, and some have not gone our way. I'm grateful to existing organizations, including the ACLU, Public Citizen, some Quaker bodies along with other religious organizations like the UU, who are putting their already-extensive experience and networks to use. I honor people who are creating new organizations of resistance, including an increasingly active group local to me, but I am also glad for all that is already in place and able to take quick action.
posted by Well I never
Also Democracy Dockett.
I remain unconvinced that the judiciary will willingly cede their considerable power.
posted by Pouteria at 2:16 AM on April 1 [2 favorites]
posted by Well I never
Also Democracy Dockett.
I remain unconvinced that the judiciary will willingly cede their considerable power.
posted by Pouteria at 2:16 AM on April 1 [2 favorites]
Why is this thread turning into :what about the men" again? And this is more the fault of liberal policies? Hmmmmmmmmmmmm
posted by tiny frying pan at 4:55 AM on April 1 [2 favorites]
posted by tiny frying pan at 4:55 AM on April 1 [2 favorites]
And this is more the fault of liberal policies?
Don't forget the Condescending Leftist Spaces
In all seriousness, how does a person swerve to avoid this topic when we attempt to arrive at What Do We Do About This Situation
posted by ginger.beef at 5:50 AM on April 1 [1 favorite]
Don't forget the Condescending Leftist Spaces
In all seriousness, how does a person swerve to avoid this topic when we attempt to arrive at What Do We Do About This Situation
posted by ginger.beef at 5:50 AM on April 1 [1 favorite]
More in what you can do about it right now + actually effective resistance to WWII Nazis by ordinary people: Norwegian teachers prevent Nazi takeover of education, 1942
posted by eviemath at 6:14 AM on April 1 [4 favorites]
posted by eviemath at 6:14 AM on April 1 [4 favorites]
Anyways, it does seem there's been a sea change over the weekend. I am cautiously optimistic.
posted by mumimor at 6:32 AM on April 1 [1 favorite]
posted by mumimor at 6:32 AM on April 1 [1 favorite]
And here’s the thing: a lot of Mefites are in more vulnerable situations, but if you are a white, middle to upper middle class, cisgender, US-born American living in the US who doesn’t have to cross the border regularly for work or anything (a demographic which also includes a significant proportion of Mefites), your current risk in speaking up is very, very low. If you have one or two points of vulnerability that aren’t the ones the administration is currently targeting (immigrants, trans people) and don’t live in a completely hostile community (eg. rural Idaho), your current risk in speaking out is still pretty low. The more of you who speak out now, (a) the safer it makes it for more vulnerable and currently-impacted folks to protest, and (b) the less likely it is that your risk will increase in the future. If your community isn’t safe, join some actions or exercise your speech in a nearby, safer population centre.
It’s also important to understand the different levels of risk, and for those with relative privilege to accept a small amount of risk. Yes, you might get dragged out of a town hall by hired goons, which is scary at the time, will likely result in some minor injuries, and is something that shouldn’t be a risk in the first place and we all should be quite upset about. But you will almost surely survive with no permanent injuries or sexual assault if you are in the white, middle to upper middle class, cisgender US citizen demographic. Similarly, jail for middle class white folks with no health issues who engage in Constitutionally protected protest is seriously uncomfortable/ unpleasant/ potentially degrading, but not a significant risk of permanent injuries, sexual assault, or death. However, the more of you who are willing to make that sacrifice, the more normalized going to jail for justice becomes, and the less dangerous that makes it for other folks for whom it would be dangerous.
I’m going to have to assess the risks of crossing the border to visit friends and family - likely stressful but not dangerous for me currently, but it might be wise for me to ensure that any electronic devices I bring aren’t logged in to my social media accounts or otherwise have anti-Trump comments easily searchable by anyone I’m not directly connected to on any social media that uses my real name. That might change in the coming year, and it might be that I don’t see people I care about in person for longer than I would like. But I’m still getting more involved in my union and local community in Canada and being very proactive and vocal about ensuring we actively value and support our trans and immigrant community members, to build that proactive resistance.
posted by eviemath at 6:43 AM on April 1 [12 favorites]
It’s also important to understand the different levels of risk, and for those with relative privilege to accept a small amount of risk. Yes, you might get dragged out of a town hall by hired goons, which is scary at the time, will likely result in some minor injuries, and is something that shouldn’t be a risk in the first place and we all should be quite upset about. But you will almost surely survive with no permanent injuries or sexual assault if you are in the white, middle to upper middle class, cisgender US citizen demographic. Similarly, jail for middle class white folks with no health issues who engage in Constitutionally protected protest is seriously uncomfortable/ unpleasant/ potentially degrading, but not a significant risk of permanent injuries, sexual assault, or death. However, the more of you who are willing to make that sacrifice, the more normalized going to jail for justice becomes, and the less dangerous that makes it for other folks for whom it would be dangerous.
I’m going to have to assess the risks of crossing the border to visit friends and family - likely stressful but not dangerous for me currently, but it might be wise for me to ensure that any electronic devices I bring aren’t logged in to my social media accounts or otherwise have anti-Trump comments easily searchable by anyone I’m not directly connected to on any social media that uses my real name. That might change in the coming year, and it might be that I don’t see people I care about in person for longer than I would like. But I’m still getting more involved in my union and local community in Canada and being very proactive and vocal about ensuring we actively value and support our trans and immigrant community members, to build that proactive resistance.
posted by eviemath at 6:43 AM on April 1 [12 favorites]
The Intercept had an article on dodging phone searches when crossing the border. The simplest thing is to use a separate phone but there's also advice about logging out of your accounts and disabling face and fingerprint logins since you can refuse to give agents your PIN if they don't have a warrant.
( 4th amendment, anyone? )
here's the article
posted by subdee at 7:10 AM on April 1 [3 favorites]
( 4th amendment, anyone? )
here's the article
posted by subdee at 7:10 AM on April 1 [3 favorites]
Okay, while those of you who've pointed out that Cory Booker is not TECHNICALLY filibustering the Senate, can we not be at least a bit excited some Democrat is doing something more than just tut-tutting mildly?
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 9:53 AM on April 1 [5 favorites]
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 9:53 AM on April 1 [5 favorites]
The CDC Has Been Gutted : Thousands of CDC employees who worked on things like preventing HIV and lead poisoning have been told they were subject to a reduction in force.
posted by jeffburdges at 10:09 AM on April 1 [5 favorites]
posted by jeffburdges at 10:09 AM on April 1 [5 favorites]
Cory Booker was still speaking when Congress reconvened this morning, so now it is a filibuster for real anyway...
He picked a good day, the elections in Wisconsin and Florida are today (I've been phonebanking for Susan Crawford with Ms. Newborn asleep in my lap this morning), and tomorrow the Supreme Court is hearing the case about whether states can prohibit Medicaid money from going to Planned Parenthood - NOT for abortions, for other health services - with a rally planned outside the building.
Here's information about the rally again.
Highly recommend you guys get involved in local (Dem) politics by the way, it feels so much better to be doing something, anything, instead of endlessly arguing about it online.
posted by subdee at 10:27 AM on April 1 [5 favorites]
He picked a good day, the elections in Wisconsin and Florida are today (I've been phonebanking for Susan Crawford with Ms. Newborn asleep in my lap this morning), and tomorrow the Supreme Court is hearing the case about whether states can prohibit Medicaid money from going to Planned Parenthood - NOT for abortions, for other health services - with a rally planned outside the building.
Here's information about the rally again.
Highly recommend you guys get involved in local (Dem) politics by the way, it feels so much better to be doing something, anything, instead of endlessly arguing about it online.
posted by subdee at 10:27 AM on April 1 [5 favorites]
Yup. Purely performative bullshit.
He's standing for something.
Not unlike Sen. Chris Murphy D Conn?
He's been at this a long time in his own way. Perhaps he's being performative -- boy, there's a word that would make me reach for the grip of my Romulan disrupter had I one -- but he's standing for something. The words that come to my mind here are Impassioned and Informative. Murphy's speeches should be run as endlessly stripped infomercials and I should hope Senator Booker is getting coverage. He certainly is brightening my doomscrolling today.
posted by y2karl at 10:46 AM on April 1 [2 favorites]
He's standing for something.
Not unlike Sen. Chris Murphy D Conn?
He's been at this a long time in his own way. Perhaps he's being performative -- boy, there's a word that would make me reach for the grip of my Romulan disrupter had I one -- but he's standing for something. The words that come to my mind here are Impassioned and Informative. Murphy's speeches should be run as endlessly stripped infomercials and I should hope Senator Booker is getting coverage. He certainly is brightening my doomscrolling today.
posted by y2karl at 10:46 AM on April 1 [2 favorites]
Here's Cory Booker on youtube:
Livestream
It's a team effort by dems, they are highlighting everything that's been happening for anyone who cares to listen.
For example, we just heard about the 10,000 people fired from Health and Human Services this morning, and now we are hearing about constituents who aren't able to receive Social Security because of the dismantling by DOGE.
Maybe all of us here knew all this was happening, because we read the news, but what about the people who are only finding out about it now?
18 hours so far...
posted by subdee at 10:57 AM on April 1 [2 favorites]
Livestream
It's a team effort by dems, they are highlighting everything that's been happening for anyone who cares to listen.
For example, we just heard about the 10,000 people fired from Health and Human Services this morning, and now we are hearing about constituents who aren't able to receive Social Security because of the dismantling by DOGE.
Maybe all of us here knew all this was happening, because we read the news, but what about the people who are only finding out about it now?
18 hours so far...
posted by subdee at 10:57 AM on April 1 [2 favorites]
To clarify some responses, there is no filibuster option in the US House of Representatives, only in the Senate.
In the United States House of Representatives, the filibuster (the right to unlimited debate) was used until 1842, when a permanent rule limiting the duration of debate was created.[71] The disappearing quorum was a tactic used by the minority until Speaker Thomas Brackett Reed eliminated it in 1890.[72] As the membership of the House grew much larger than the Senate, the House had acted earlier to control floor debate and the delay and blocking of floor votes. The magic minute allows party leaders to speak for as long as they wish, which Kevin McCarthy used in 2021 to set a record for the longest speech on the House floor (8 hours and 33 minutes) in opposition to the Build Back Better Act.[73][74]
posted by Brian B. at 11:46 AM on April 1 [3 favorites]
In the United States House of Representatives, the filibuster (the right to unlimited debate) was used until 1842, when a permanent rule limiting the duration of debate was created.[71] The disappearing quorum was a tactic used by the minority until Speaker Thomas Brackett Reed eliminated it in 1890.[72] As the membership of the House grew much larger than the Senate, the House had acted earlier to control floor debate and the delay and blocking of floor votes. The magic minute allows party leaders to speak for as long as they wish, which Kevin McCarthy used in 2021 to set a record for the longest speech on the House floor (8 hours and 33 minutes) in opposition to the Build Back Better Act.[73][74]
posted by Brian B. at 11:46 AM on April 1 [3 favorites]
subdee: "Cory Booker was still speaking when Congress reconvened this morning, so now it is a filibuster for real anyway..."
Yeah, now it's useful instead of merely performative.
posted by adrienneleigh at 1:30 PM on April 1
Yeah, now it's useful instead of merely performative.
posted by adrienneleigh at 1:30 PM on April 1
stop fighting in this thread. stop it. these are fights for later. put some of this shit aside. show up on saturday. be part of a group. do it!
posted by mathjus at 5:31 PM on April 2 [1 favorite]
posted by mathjus at 5:31 PM on April 2 [1 favorite]
Yeah, now it's useful instead of merely performative.
Good thing "performing" doesn't matter at all in politics, otherwise we might be at the mercy of a con man who has performed as a skilled businessman for decades along with his co-conspirator who has performed as a technical genius for decades. Thank God the Democratic party's default practice of refusing to loudly perform taking credit for their successes and hoping the electorate will just absorb them via osmosis has led to a Democratic presidency and massive majorities in both houses of Congress. Truly, "performing" has been proven to be just a giant waste of time in this America of ours dominated by an intelligent, informed, and involved electorate who vote in massive numbers in every single election while knowing all the details of every issue and candidate, informed by a truly neutral news media.
posted by soundguy99 at 6:13 PM on April 2 [4 favorites]
Good thing "performing" doesn't matter at all in politics, otherwise we might be at the mercy of a con man who has performed as a skilled businessman for decades along with his co-conspirator who has performed as a technical genius for decades. Thank God the Democratic party's default practice of refusing to loudly perform taking credit for their successes and hoping the electorate will just absorb them via osmosis has led to a Democratic presidency and massive majorities in both houses of Congress. Truly, "performing" has been proven to be just a giant waste of time in this America of ours dominated by an intelligent, informed, and involved electorate who vote in massive numbers in every single election while knowing all the details of every issue and candidate, informed by a truly neutral news media.
posted by soundguy99 at 6:13 PM on April 2 [4 favorites]
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posted by snuffleupagus at 7:02 AM on March 31 [12 favorites]