God-damn!! This is the job for me!!
April 28, 2005 12:56 PM Subscribe
Focus on the family is looking for a Macintosh specialist...
"This position is responsible for overseeing the smooth performance of the Macintosh systems and network, serving the needs of the users, and implementing necessary changes. Responsibilities:
Is a consistent witness for Jesus Christ; maintains a courteous, Christ-like attitude in dealing with people within and outside of Focus; adheres to the Standard of Moral Conduct and Statement of Faith; upholds Focus on the Family's ministry in prayer. Demonstrates behaviors aligned with FOF core values."
[via Macintouch]
"This position is responsible for overseeing the smooth performance of the Macintosh systems and network, serving the needs of the users, and implementing necessary changes. Responsibilities:
Is a consistent witness for Jesus Christ; maintains a courteous, Christ-like attitude in dealing with people within and outside of Focus; adheres to the Standard of Moral Conduct and Statement of Faith; upholds Focus on the Family's ministry in prayer. Demonstrates behaviors aligned with FOF core values."
[via Macintouch]
I think the point is that technical solvency on the mac platform is secondary to praising the jesus.
posted by jmgorman at 12:58 PM on April 28, 2005
posted by jmgorman at 12:58 PM on April 28, 2005
If only they knew the computer was hexed ahahahaha
posted by Mean Mr. Bucket at 1:01 PM on April 28, 2005
posted by Mean Mr. Bucket at 1:01 PM on April 28, 2005
This really makes me reconsider Focus on the Family. I had thought they were a bunch of insensitive, haranguing bullies who had no sense whatsoever, but now I find out that they use Macs.
oh, and,
Focus on your own damn family!
posted by OmieWise at 1:04 PM on April 28, 2005
oh, and,
Focus on your own damn family!
posted by OmieWise at 1:04 PM on April 28, 2005
Let's say that I'm the best Mac expert in the world, but I worship Allah. Or no one. Does that Mean I'm SOL if I want to apply for this job?
Sorry... but the mind just boggles...
posted by jpburns at 1:05 PM on April 28, 2005
Sorry... but the mind just boggles...
posted by jpburns at 1:05 PM on April 28, 2005
Shouldn't they just pray for God to send them a Mac specialist?
posted by clevershark at 1:05 PM on April 28, 2005
posted by clevershark at 1:05 PM on April 28, 2005
Demonstrates behaviors aligned with FOF core values.
Heh! Must resist temptation...
[keep those pitchforks sharpened boys!]
posted by nofundy at 1:06 PM on April 28, 2005
Heh! Must resist temptation...
[keep those pitchforks sharpened boys!]
posted by nofundy at 1:06 PM on April 28, 2005
Aligned with FOF core values? I guess if you don't hate gays enough you can't have the job.
posted by clevershark at 1:08 PM on April 28, 2005
posted by clevershark at 1:08 PM on April 28, 2005
This interesting section was in the application form:
"It is our organization’s policy to provide equal employment opportunity to all persons regardless of their race, sex, color, national origin, age or disability. "
I guess all the christian questions above that statement rules out the "regardless of religion" angle:
FOCUS ON THE FAMILY STATEMENT OF FAITH
Please sign the Statement of Faith below if you completely adhere to it.
We believe the Bible to be the only infallible, authoritative Word of God.
We believe that there is only one God, eternally existent in three persons: Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
We believe in the deity of our Lord Jesus Christ, in His virgin birth, in His sinless life, in His miracles, in His vicarious and atoning death through His shed blood, in His bodily resurrection, in His ascension to the right hand of the Father, and in His personal return to power and glory.
We believe that for the salvation of lost and sinful man, regeneration by the Holy Spirit is absolutely essential.
We believe in the present ministry of the Holy Spirit, by whose indwelling the Christian is enabled to live a godly life.
We believe in the resurrection of both the saved and the lost; they that are saved unto the resurrection of life and they that are lost unto the resurrection of damnation.
We believe in the spiritual unity of believers in our Lord Jesus Christ.
Without mental reservation, I hereby subscribe to the above statements.
posted by Moondoggie at 1:09 PM on April 28, 2005
"It is our organization’s policy to provide equal employment opportunity to all persons regardless of their race, sex, color, national origin, age or disability. "
I guess all the christian questions above that statement rules out the "regardless of religion" angle:
FOCUS ON THE FAMILY STATEMENT OF FAITH
Please sign the Statement of Faith below if you completely adhere to it.
We believe the Bible to be the only infallible, authoritative Word of God.
We believe that there is only one God, eternally existent in three persons: Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
We believe in the deity of our Lord Jesus Christ, in His virgin birth, in His sinless life, in His miracles, in His vicarious and atoning death through His shed blood, in His bodily resurrection, in His ascension to the right hand of the Father, and in His personal return to power and glory.
We believe that for the salvation of lost and sinful man, regeneration by the Holy Spirit is absolutely essential.
We believe in the present ministry of the Holy Spirit, by whose indwelling the Christian is enabled to live a godly life.
We believe in the resurrection of both the saved and the lost; they that are saved unto the resurrection of life and they that are lost unto the resurrection of damnation.
We believe in the spiritual unity of believers in our Lord Jesus Christ.
Without mental reservation, I hereby subscribe to the above statements.
posted by Moondoggie at 1:09 PM on April 28, 2005
And dear God, please no mention of the evil bit.
posted by Mean Mr. Bucket at 1:09 PM on April 28, 2005
posted by Mean Mr. Bucket at 1:09 PM on April 28, 2005
This may be obvious, but if you know what the organization is about, and disagree with their aims, why would you want to work for them?
posted by jonmc at 1:11 PM on April 28, 2005
posted by jonmc at 1:11 PM on April 28, 2005
Main Entry: cult
Pronunciation: 'k< function: noun usage: often attributive etymology: french & latin; french culte, from latin cultus care, adoration, from colere to cultivate -- more at wheel 1 : formal religious veneration : worship 2 : a system of religious beliefs and ritual; also : its body of adherents 3 : a religion regarded as unorthodox or spurious; also : its body of adherents 4 : a system for the cure of disease based dogma set forth by its promulgator health cults>
5 a : great devotion to a person, idea, object, movement, or work (as a film or book); especially : such devotion regarded as a literary or intellectual fad b : a usually small group of people characterized by such devotion
- cul·tic /'k&l-tik/ adjective
- cult·ish /-tish/ adjective
- cult·ish·ly /-lE/ adverb
- cult·ish·ness /-n&s/ noun
- cult·ism /'k&l-"ti-z&m/ noun
- cult·ist /'k&l-tist/ noun
- cult·like /-"lIk/ adjective
and/or
bizarre mind virus.
posted by Mean Mr. Bucket at 1:13 PM on April 28, 2005
Pronunciation: 'k< function: noun usage: often attributive etymology: french & latin; french culte, from latin cultus care, adoration, from colere to cultivate -- more at wheel 1 : formal religious veneration : worship 2 : a system of religious beliefs and ritual; also : its body of adherents 3 : a religion regarded as unorthodox or spurious; also : its body of adherents 4 : a system for the cure of disease based dogma set forth by its promulgator health cults>
5 a : great devotion to a person, idea, object, movement, or work (as a film or book); especially : such devotion regarded as a literary or intellectual fad b : a usually small group of people characterized by such devotion
- cul·tic /'k&l-tik/ adjective
- cult·ish /-tish/ adjective
- cult·ish·ly /-lE/ adverb
- cult·ish·ness /-n&s/ noun
- cult·ism /'k&l-"ti-z&m/ noun
- cult·ist /'k&l-tist/ noun
- cult·like /-"lIk/ adjective
and/or
bizarre mind virus.
posted by Mean Mr. Bucket at 1:13 PM on April 28, 2005
I say Christ alot, does that count as being Christ-like? Or should I stop shaving, grow my hair long and say things like "Yeah, blessed art thou, poor old Macintosh"?
How about if I put some spikes through my wrists and wear a crown of thorns? Would they hire me then? What are the benefits like?
jonmc, to bring them DOWN, man! Bring them DOWN!
posted by fenriq at 1:14 PM on April 28, 2005
How about if I put some spikes through my wrists and wear a crown of thorns? Would they hire me then? What are the benefits like?
jonmc, to bring them DOWN, man! Bring them DOWN!
posted by fenriq at 1:14 PM on April 28, 2005
"...the successful applicant will demonstrate mastery of bleeding-edge McJesus commodification theory, and a proven aptitude for discretion in the attendance of Dr. Dobson's hot after-hours interstate rest area man-on-man pep rallies...
posted by MaxVonCretin at 1:15 PM on April 28, 2005
posted by MaxVonCretin at 1:15 PM on April 28, 2005
At least they just buy Apple, rather than being paid by them.
posted by fungible at 1:16 PM on April 28, 2005
posted by fungible at 1:16 PM on April 28, 2005
I thought Steve Jobs was God. And the iPod is Jesus. And OS X the Holy Spirit.
posted by Robot Johnny at 1:18 PM on April 28, 2005
posted by Robot Johnny at 1:18 PM on April 28, 2005
Yeah, this is kind of stupid, but would you really want to work there anyway? No huge loss.
posted by Josh Zhixel at 1:21 PM on April 28, 2005
posted by Josh Zhixel at 1:21 PM on April 28, 2005
"maintains a courteous, Christ-like attitude in dealing with people "
What with my ability to heal lepers, cure the blind, and raise the dead I'm a shoo-in for this position.
That and I'm great at parties turning water into wine.
posted by Smedleyman at 1:23 PM on April 28, 2005
What with my ability to heal lepers, cure the blind, and raise the dead I'm a shoo-in for this position.
That and I'm great at parties turning water into wine.
posted by Smedleyman at 1:23 PM on April 28, 2005
Smedleyman, dang, I can only turn wine (and beer and cocktails) into a clear to yellowish fluid that emanates from my tallywhacker.
posted by fenriq at 1:29 PM on April 28, 2005
posted by fenriq at 1:29 PM on April 28, 2005
jonmc, as an omnivore who once worked as a contributing writer and section editor for Vegetarian Times (and who was hired by the then-editor, who herself enjoyed chowing down on fried chicken and hot dogs, although she never let the readers know about that) if the pay is decent and the work is enjoyable, I'm willing to put up with stuff I don't like. Signing a statement of faith is pushing it, though.
/wishes pay were decent and work was enjoyable at current job.
posted by emelenjr at 1:29 PM on April 28, 2005
/wishes pay were decent and work was enjoyable at current job.
posted by emelenjr at 1:29 PM on April 28, 2005
Ah, MetaFilter gets its daily opportunity to make fun of Christians. I can hear the exhalations.
posted by xmutex at 1:31 PM on April 28, 2005
posted by xmutex at 1:31 PM on April 28, 2005
emelenjr, one can be an omnivore and not have any problem with vegetarians, so that's where that analogy breaks down. I wouldn't want to work for FOF since I not only differ with them, I'm fundamentally opposed to them. It's be like a black huy going to work in the Klan's IT department or something.
posted by jonmc at 1:32 PM on April 28, 2005
posted by jonmc at 1:32 PM on April 28, 2005
Cast out ye fatal errors! Reboot ye sinners! G5, Awake! Be heeeealed - da. Your open documents are saaaved - da.
posted by hal9k at 1:34 PM on April 28, 2005
posted by hal9k at 1:34 PM on April 28, 2005
Good luck finding a Mac specialist who puts God before his Mac :-)
posted by clevershark at 1:34 PM on April 28, 2005
posted by clevershark at 1:34 PM on April 28, 2005
I saw a similar thing in a job posting for a Mormon church. I just figured they listed the religious stuff first as a matter of expediency. No use making you read the whole thing if you're not playing on their team.
posted by Cyrano at 1:41 PM on April 28, 2005
posted by Cyrano at 1:41 PM on April 28, 2005
Ah, MetaFilter gets its daily opportunity to make fun of Christians. I can hear the exhalations.
posted by xmutex at 1:31 PM PST on April 28 [!]
Not making fun, really, just trying to save my fellow humans from this mind trick that tears them away from other humans.
posted by Mean Mr. Bucket at 1:41 PM on April 28, 2005
posted by xmutex at 1:31 PM PST on April 28 [!]
Not making fun, really, just trying to save my fellow humans from this mind trick that tears them away from other humans.
posted by Mean Mr. Bucket at 1:41 PM on April 28, 2005
Moondoggie, EXACTLY. How are they getting around the "It is our organization’s policy to provide equal employment opportunity to all persons regardless of their ... religion " bit? No one will enforce that, that's why.
Sadly, I live in the same city as this organization. And it's very hard to find a job in this town without having religion shoved down your throat at every turn. If it weren't for the beautiful view of the mountains, my sanity would be completely gone by now.
posted by Spencerinc at 1:45 PM on April 28, 2005
Sadly, I live in the same city as this organization. And it's very hard to find a job in this town without having religion shoved down your throat at every turn. If it weren't for the beautiful view of the mountains, my sanity would be completely gone by now.
posted by Spencerinc at 1:45 PM on April 28, 2005
This may be obvious, but if you know what the organization is about, and disagree with their aims, why would you want to work for them?
Imagine the possibilities. You would have access to their internal network.
Signing a statement of faith is pushing it
You and your high standards.
posted by mrgrimm at 1:59 PM on April 28, 2005
Imagine the possibilities. You would have access to their internal network.
Signing a statement of faith is pushing it
You and your high standards.
posted by mrgrimm at 1:59 PM on April 28, 2005
Also, (since nobody else did) can a lawyer or expert explain how the hiring policy doesn't violate equal rights restrictions?
posted by mrgrimm at 2:00 PM on April 28, 2005
posted by mrgrimm at 2:00 PM on April 28, 2005
Ah, MetaFilter gets its daily opportunity to make fun of Christians.
The Christers will have the last laugh anyway, come the Rapture. Until then, I say have at 'em!
posted by gigawhat? at 2:02 PM on April 28, 2005
The Christers will have the last laugh anyway, come the Rapture. Until then, I say have at 'em!
posted by gigawhat? at 2:02 PM on April 28, 2005
Well, given crap like this from Dobson, I wonder what the FOTF people will think or do think when they log in to Terminal.app and it says:
Welcome to Darwin!
posted by teece at 2:10 PM on April 28, 2005
Welcome to Darwin!
posted by teece at 2:10 PM on April 28, 2005
Obviously these people haven't heard that the Mac is considered by some to be papist, by others to be flat-out satanic.
posted by adamrice at 2:11 PM on April 28, 2005
posted by adamrice at 2:11 PM on April 28, 2005
jonmc is right again (this is getting out of hand, please say something dumb soon jonmc).
This the flipside of Planned Parenthood's: "Knowledge of diverse groups and working with a multicultural workforce and sensitivity to cultural differences."
One is a "Keep Out" sign and the other is a "Welcome" mat. They are both signs.
posted by Cassford at 2:15 PM on April 28, 2005
This the flipside of Planned Parenthood's: "Knowledge of diverse groups and working with a multicultural workforce and sensitivity to cultural differences."
One is a "Keep Out" sign and the other is a "Welcome" mat. They are both signs.
posted by Cassford at 2:15 PM on April 28, 2005
James Dobson, who heads Focus on the Family, focused his anger on the 9th circuit court of appeals: "Very few people know this, that the Congress can simply disenfranchise a court. They don't have to fire anybody or impeach them or go through that battle. All they have to do is say the 9th circuit doesn't exist anymore, and it's gone."
And your hard drive, Mr. Dobson? It got disenfanchised. I'll hafta check the sectors. That speech you wrote in MS Word? Ooooh, yeah, that was like, so NOT saved. Your network? As disconnected as you are from reality.
When do I get my raise?
posted by hal9k at 2:15 PM on April 28, 2005
And your hard drive, Mr. Dobson? It got disenfanchised. I'll hafta check the sectors. That speech you wrote in MS Word? Ooooh, yeah, that was like, so NOT saved. Your network? As disconnected as you are from reality.
When do I get my raise?
posted by hal9k at 2:15 PM on April 28, 2005
Sometimes this talibangelist view of the world ("Mac as 'evolutionist propaganda'") just amazes me.
posted by clevershark at 2:16 PM on April 28, 2005
posted by clevershark at 2:16 PM on April 28, 2005
It's sort of amusing that both Christians and Metafilter posters claim moral superiority to one another while holding little five-minutes hate sessions to reinforce their preexisting beliefs. Tribalism and an inability to function like sentient fucking adults seems to be the values we all hold dear regardless of faith.
Slightly more amusing are the intellectually hypocritical like myself who try to parade their elitism around today's ideology exhibition as if their somehow better than those they mock. Newsflash: we're all damned, if only to a lifetime of stupidity and waste.
posted by Ryvar at 2:24 PM on April 28, 2005
Slightly more amusing are the intellectually hypocritical like myself who try to parade their elitism around today's ideology exhibition as if their somehow better than those they mock. Newsflash: we're all damned, if only to a lifetime of stupidity and waste.
posted by Ryvar at 2:24 PM on April 28, 2005
Does requiring an employee be Christian violate some kind of anti-discrimination legislation? Isn't this as bad (and illegal) as saying "No Jews Allowed" or "Whites Only?"
posted by chasing at 2:28 PM on April 28, 2005
posted by chasing at 2:28 PM on April 28, 2005
Ryvar, most people mock someone at some point. But mocking when you're in a group of people who agree is different than going up to your opponent and brow-beating them to get them to agree with you.... and then telling them that they'll burn in Hell if they don't.
That's how I know I'm on the "better" side of the fence. We mock. But we don't brow-beat. :P
posted by Spencerinc at 2:29 PM on April 28, 2005
That's how I know I'm on the "better" side of the fence. We mock. But we don't brow-beat. :P
posted by Spencerinc at 2:29 PM on April 28, 2005
Ryvar: "...exhibition as if their they're somehow better..."
/irony
posted by hal9k at 2:31 PM on April 28, 2005
/irony
posted by hal9k at 2:31 PM on April 28, 2005
Cue the spelling elitists and cultists (their = 'they were' aborted mid-sentence due to phrasing switch. Condemnation from the right-to-misspell groups ensues).
Spencerinc wrote:
Ryvar, most people mock someone at some point. But mocking when you're in a group of people who agree is different than going up to your opponent and brow-beating them to get them to agree with you.... and then telling them that they'll burn in Hell if they don't.
That's how I know I'm on the "better" side of the fence. We mock. But we don't brow-beat. :P
That's not really better, just equally useless. An ideological circle-jerk is every bit as constructive as attempting to resolve an intellectual debate through chest-beating. Both sides in engage in these action far more often than they attempt to honestly engage each other.
posted by Ryvar at 2:35 PM on April 28, 2005
Spencerinc wrote:
Ryvar, most people mock someone at some point. But mocking when you're in a group of people who agree is different than going up to your opponent and brow-beating them to get them to agree with you.... and then telling them that they'll burn in Hell if they don't.
That's how I know I'm on the "better" side of the fence. We mock. But we don't brow-beat. :P
That's not really better, just equally useless. An ideological circle-jerk is every bit as constructive as attempting to resolve an intellectual debate through chest-beating. Both sides in engage in these action far more often than they attempt to honestly engage each other.
posted by Ryvar at 2:35 PM on April 28, 2005
I like the wording here: The Campaign Manager position exists to impact the body of Christ by providing audience ministry account management for the ministry’s Media and Communications Group.
posted by fleacircus at 2:42 PM on April 28, 2005
posted by fleacircus at 2:42 PM on April 28, 2005
hal9k: while you're bored, don't forget to remind me to add an 's' to 'actions' above. No, I'm not so stupid as to use the wrong there/they're/their, but I do occasionally botch a phrasing switch. But don't let me discourage you - you've got eighty years of life to spend as you see fit, and I'm sure comments dedicated to minor editing mistakes of other comments is a worthwhile way to spend some fraction of that.
posted by Ryvar at 2:42 PM on April 28, 2005
posted by Ryvar at 2:42 PM on April 28, 2005
But I don't care to be useful or resolve anything. My opinions are my own, and if Christians like their religion, that's their business. I don't care to talk them out of it. If it makes them happy, that's great.
posted by Spencerinc at 2:45 PM on April 28, 2005
posted by Spencerinc at 2:45 PM on April 28, 2005
Ryvar writes "An ideological circle-jerk is every bit as constructive as attempting to resolve an intellectual debate through chest-beating. Both sides in engage in these action far more often than they attempt to honestly engage each other."
Ryvar, we all know how you're superior to all of us by not playing the game. You can pat yourself on the back now. I'll give you full points for attempting to sow the seeds of a neutrality-based intellectual circle-jerk, but let's face it that's not going to happen... that would be like starting a political party for "extreme centrists".
Online debate isn't about winning over the opposition -- that'll never happen. I will probably never say that George W. Bush is a great President (although I can't discount the possibility of extreme brain damage), and likewise dios, 1016, ParisParamus and Steve_at_Linwood will probably never say that George W. Bush is a terrible President. That's just the way things are.
If you're really looking to change other people's minds, I put it to you that an online forum is the last place you want to be.
posted by clevershark at 2:49 PM on April 28, 2005
Ryvar, we all know how you're superior to all of us by not playing the game. You can pat yourself on the back now. I'll give you full points for attempting to sow the seeds of a neutrality-based intellectual circle-jerk, but let's face it that's not going to happen... that would be like starting a political party for "extreme centrists".
Online debate isn't about winning over the opposition -- that'll never happen. I will probably never say that George W. Bush is a great President (although I can't discount the possibility of extreme brain damage), and likewise dios, 1016, ParisParamus and Steve_at_Linwood will probably never say that George W. Bush is a terrible President. That's just the way things are.
If you're really looking to change other people's minds, I put it to you that an online forum is the last place you want to be.
posted by clevershark at 2:49 PM on April 28, 2005
I was going to say something about how having a "Christ-like attitude" doesn't necessarily mean you have to be Christian, but the statement before that demands that the employee must be a "consistent witness for Jesus Christ", so I guess that is being a little exclusive.
posted by hopeless romantique at 2:56 PM on April 28, 2005
posted by hopeless romantique at 2:56 PM on April 28, 2005
Does requiring an employee be Christian violate some kind of anti-discrimination legislation?
As a matter of fact, no, as long as the employer is a religious organization (as FOF is). "Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, as amended in 1972 (section 2000e-l) exempts religious organizations from its general prohibition against religious discrimination by private sector organizations (e.g., employers, labor organizations, employment agencies)."
Furthermore, "Charitable Choice -- a provision of Congress's 1996 welfare reform legislation--allows faith-based organizations to use religious criteria when they employ people to work in contracts that are federally-funded through Temporary Assistance for Needy Families (TANF)."
Quotes from Religion-Based Employment Discrimination in Charitable Choice: A Guide for the Perplexed.
posted by beagle at 3:06 PM on April 28, 2005
As a matter of fact, no, as long as the employer is a religious organization (as FOF is). "Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, as amended in 1972 (section 2000e-l) exempts religious organizations from its general prohibition against religious discrimination by private sector organizations (e.g., employers, labor organizations, employment agencies)."
Furthermore, "Charitable Choice -- a provision of Congress's 1996 welfare reform legislation--allows faith-based organizations to use religious criteria when they employ people to work in contracts that are federally-funded through Temporary Assistance for Needy Families (TANF)."
Quotes from Religion-Based Employment Discrimination in Charitable Choice: A Guide for the Perplexed.
posted by beagle at 3:06 PM on April 28, 2005
clevershark wrote:
Ryvar, we all know how you're superior to all of us by not playing the game. You can pat yourself on the back now. I'll give you full points for attempting to sow the seeds of a neutrality-based intellectual circle-jerk, but let's face it that's not going to happen... that would be like starting a political party for "extreme centrists".
Online debate isn't about winning over the opposition -- that'll never happen. I will probably never say that George W. Bush is a great President (although I can't discount the possibility of extreme brain damage), and likewise dios, 1016, ParisParamus and Steve_at_Linwood will probably never say that George W. Bush is a terrible President. That's just the way things are.
If you're really looking to change other people's minds, I put it to you that an online forum is the last place you want to be.
To start with, I called myself out right from the beginning because I knew that what I did was only marginally more useful than what's going on here. There was a chance, however minute, of it getting someone to not add another worthless comment and instead do some reading on the topic before going forth and making an honest attempt to engage someone on the topic and perhaps achieve a new understanding for one or both of them. Probably not, but it seems like that possibility - however remote - is better than all of us sitting around telling each other how stupid Christians are. I say this as an ardent atheist.
It's bullshit elitism on my part, I completely admit, but there's a snowball's chance in Hell it might do some good. A parade of jeering accomplishes nothing other than assauging the egos of the intellectually insecure.
As for online debate - I've had a lot of very, very long conversations about foreign policy with Steve@ over the past couple years with positive results. Both of us wound up learning things we did not know, and having more nuanced positions on the topics we discussed as a result of our mutual attempt to engage in honest intellectual debate. He changed my mind about a couple of points involving Iran, and I've gotten him to admit he was wrong - or rather uninformed - about a point or two on Iraq.
That may be anecdotal rather than statistically significant, but your contention that online debate utterly fails as a means of resolving ideological differences or even simply accomplishing anything productive is false. Sometimes you can engage strangers over the Internet in a topic and change their mind in some manner.
posted by Ryvar at 3:11 PM on April 28, 2005
Ryvar, we all know how you're superior to all of us by not playing the game. You can pat yourself on the back now. I'll give you full points for attempting to sow the seeds of a neutrality-based intellectual circle-jerk, but let's face it that's not going to happen... that would be like starting a political party for "extreme centrists".
Online debate isn't about winning over the opposition -- that'll never happen. I will probably never say that George W. Bush is a great President (although I can't discount the possibility of extreme brain damage), and likewise dios, 1016, ParisParamus and Steve_at_Linwood will probably never say that George W. Bush is a terrible President. That's just the way things are.
If you're really looking to change other people's minds, I put it to you that an online forum is the last place you want to be.
To start with, I called myself out right from the beginning because I knew that what I did was only marginally more useful than what's going on here. There was a chance, however minute, of it getting someone to not add another worthless comment and instead do some reading on the topic before going forth and making an honest attempt to engage someone on the topic and perhaps achieve a new understanding for one or both of them. Probably not, but it seems like that possibility - however remote - is better than all of us sitting around telling each other how stupid Christians are. I say this as an ardent atheist.
It's bullshit elitism on my part, I completely admit, but there's a snowball's chance in Hell it might do some good. A parade of jeering accomplishes nothing other than assauging the egos of the intellectually insecure.
As for online debate - I've had a lot of very, very long conversations about foreign policy with Steve@ over the past couple years with positive results. Both of us wound up learning things we did not know, and having more nuanced positions on the topics we discussed as a result of our mutual attempt to engage in honest intellectual debate. He changed my mind about a couple of points involving Iran, and I've gotten him to admit he was wrong - or rather uninformed - about a point or two on Iraq.
That may be anecdotal rather than statistically significant, but your contention that online debate utterly fails as a means of resolving ideological differences or even simply accomplishing anything productive is false. Sometimes you can engage strangers over the Internet in a topic and change their mind in some manner.
posted by Ryvar at 3:11 PM on April 28, 2005
OMG! FOF on OSX! ROTFL!
What's the point of this post, again?
posted by mkultra at 3:28 PM on April 28, 2005
What's the point of this post, again?
posted by mkultra at 3:28 PM on April 28, 2005
I used to work on Rush Limbaugh's Macs and had to bite my tongue severely in order to do so. While I personally think he's a pompous blowhard, I maintained a professional demeanor and treated his computers with the same care as the rest of my clients. I didn't allow my personal beliefs to interfer with my business.
Which, I think, is the problem here. FOF is clearly putting the job candidate's religious belief system ahead of the job's duties and responsibilities, and they are probably shorting themselves by doing so. If they believe that a candidate's religious beliefs are more important than his/her ability to provide outstanding technical support, there's not much we can do about it. As others have pointed out, they are not violating any law, but only making themselves appear closeminded, stubborn, and myopic. And it is their loss. I know many excellent Macintosh technicians, quite a few of whom are not subscribers to the FOF way of thinking, and therefore automatically not candidates for the job.
Perhaps they'll find someone who's both an excellent Mac tech and a devout believer. All for $41,000 too! Or maybe they'll settle for someone with only marginal skills but who pray every day their computers stay operational.
posted by mrbarrett.com at 3:31 PM on April 28, 2005
Which, I think, is the problem here. FOF is clearly putting the job candidate's religious belief system ahead of the job's duties and responsibilities, and they are probably shorting themselves by doing so. If they believe that a candidate's religious beliefs are more important than his/her ability to provide outstanding technical support, there's not much we can do about it. As others have pointed out, they are not violating any law, but only making themselves appear closeminded, stubborn, and myopic. And it is their loss. I know many excellent Macintosh technicians, quite a few of whom are not subscribers to the FOF way of thinking, and therefore automatically not candidates for the job.
Perhaps they'll find someone who's both an excellent Mac tech and a devout believer. All for $41,000 too! Or maybe they'll settle for someone with only marginal skills but who pray every day their computers stay operational.
posted by mrbarrett.com at 3:31 PM on April 28, 2005
Ryvar et al: As so often stated, debate is not about changing the mind of your opponent; it's about changing the minds of the spectators. Very few people who take active and forceful parts in a debate are not also personally invested in the position they take. The effect it may have on those who read and don't take part is of course immeasurable.
Yeah, yeah, that's textbook Debate 101, but it needs to be trotted out every so often. Especially around here.
posted by trigonometry at 3:33 PM on April 28, 2005
Yeah, yeah, that's textbook Debate 101, but it needs to be trotted out every so often. Especially around here.
posted by trigonometry at 3:33 PM on April 28, 2005
jonmc is right again (this is getting out of hand, please say something dumb soon jonmc).
Robert Smith is the Devil.
No, wait, that's not dumb at all. Gimme a minute....
posted by jonmc at 3:39 PM on April 28, 2005
Robert Smith is the Devil.
No, wait, that's not dumb at all. Gimme a minute....
posted by jonmc at 3:39 PM on April 28, 2005
Yea, verily, users of the holy Mac,
Although I walk through the valley of the shadow of Jobs,
I shall not Wozniak,
For Darwin is with me always.
At least until SCO wins.
posted by rdone at 3:42 PM on April 28, 2005
Although I walk through the valley of the shadow of Jobs,
I shall not Wozniak,
For Darwin is with me always.
At least until SCO wins.
posted by rdone at 3:42 PM on April 28, 2005
While I see that this has brought out some of the best wit that metafilter has (which I continue to enjoy), I just wanted to pause for a moment of genuflection and think....
doesn't this like break some federal and state employment laws.
posted by djdrue at 3:52 PM on April 28, 2005
doesn't this like break some federal and state employment laws.
posted by djdrue at 3:52 PM on April 28, 2005
FOF is clearly putting the job candidate's religious belief system ahead of the job's duties and responsibilities
No, I don't think so. I think it's just a crappily-written job description. There are tons of them out there. If you swapped out the Jesus talk for some generic pith about loyalty to Company X's corporate ideals, you'd think, "stupid job ad" and move on.
posted by mkultra at 3:54 PM on April 28, 2005
No, I don't think so. I think it's just a crappily-written job description. There are tons of them out there. If you swapped out the Jesus talk for some generic pith about loyalty to Company X's corporate ideals, you'd think, "stupid job ad" and move on.
posted by mkultra at 3:54 PM on April 28, 2005
Your computer is broken because jesus hates you
This is the funniest thing I've read all day, maybe its funnier because I'm an athiest.
posted by fenriq at 4:02 PM on April 28, 2005
This is the funniest thing I've read all day, maybe its funnier because I'm an athiest.
posted by fenriq at 4:02 PM on April 28, 2005
My iBook's LCD backlight went out last week, and, when I brought it in to the shop, I found out it was 1 day before my warranty expired. Jesus loves me way more than any of those posers.
posted by boaz at 4:22 PM on April 28, 2005
posted by boaz at 4:22 PM on April 28, 2005
clevershark: "Online debate isn't about winning over the opposition -- that'll never happen."
Wow. How crushingly honest.
posted by koeselitz at 4:32 PM on April 28, 2005
Wow. How crushingly honest.
posted by koeselitz at 4:32 PM on April 28, 2005
I'm surprised they use Quark XPress, since the company was founded by a gay man. Do they realize OS X is based on Darwin and some files have their permission set to 666?
posted by mike3k at 4:41 PM on April 28, 2005
posted by mike3k at 4:41 PM on April 28, 2005
Oh come now, do you really expect a Christian organization to hire someone with knowledge of the Apple?
posted by stet at 4:52 PM on April 28, 2005
posted by stet at 4:52 PM on April 28, 2005
I used to work for a Christian university in Toronto (Communications Department, later doing Research Assistance), and to do that I had to sign a Mission Statement and Faith Statement and a Lifestyle Policy. In order to become a student at the school, you had to sign similar documents, especially if you were going to live in residence. I'm no longer a Christian, so I'm no longer eligible for employment there, though I have the same personality, skills, and experience that I previously had. Do I understand it though? Hell yeah. They're not just working there for kicks, they're trying to foster an environment that supports their faith, and they are trying to develop community among the staff there that is based on the most important thing in their lives. They are looking for specific things in their employees, and one of the most important things that they're looking for is that the employee fits in the faith community and has similar goals and will understand their motivations. That they value that as highly as other qualifications isn't really surprising based on the nature of their organization.
posted by heatherann at 5:18 PM on April 28, 2005
posted by heatherann at 5:18 PM on April 28, 2005
The Apple is bitten, too. I guess that's too obvious to mention. Or maybe it's seen as a pious acceptance of man's fallen state.
posted by effwerd at 5:22 PM on April 28, 2005
posted by effwerd at 5:22 PM on April 28, 2005
We believe the Bible to be the only infallible, authoritative Word of God.
Great. Use a 2,000+ year old collection of figurative stories meant to conceal truth from an occupying force (Rome), and put it through four translations (Aramaic/Hebrew -> Greek -> Latin -> English) with no cultural reference as the ONLY authoritative word for your belief structure.
Funny how in the Old testament they say "eye for an eye" but the New Testament says "turn the other cheek." The interview on this one would be a FIELD day.
"Well you can't expect to wield supreme executive power
just 'cause some watery tart threw a sword at you!"
posted by eljuanbobo at 5:26 PM on April 28, 2005
Great. Use a 2,000+ year old collection of figurative stories meant to conceal truth from an occupying force (Rome), and put it through four translations (Aramaic/Hebrew -> Greek -> Latin -> English) with no cultural reference as the ONLY authoritative word for your belief structure.
Funny how in the Old testament they say "eye for an eye" but the New Testament says "turn the other cheek." The interview on this one would be a FIELD day.
"Well you can't expect to wield supreme executive power
just 'cause some watery tart threw a sword at you!"
posted by eljuanbobo at 5:26 PM on April 28, 2005
Well at least if they're all using Macs, the prayers that the machines keep working will mostly appear to work... as opposed to Winboxes, which definitely require daily prayer against crashes... ;)
Okay, okay, that's enough from me.
On preview: Bobo! Howaya buddy! Moistened bint lobbed a scimitar at you?
posted by zoogleplex at 5:39 PM on April 28, 2005
Okay, okay, that's enough from me.
On preview: Bobo! Howaya buddy! Moistened bint lobbed a scimitar at you?
posted by zoogleplex at 5:39 PM on April 28, 2005
OK, to turn the devils advocate on full blast, I have to ask this: how deep can your principles run if you're willing to work at the behest of people whose whole raison d'etre is diametrically opposed to your beliefs? Isn't that the very essence of "selling out?"
posted by jonmc at 5:45 PM on April 28, 2005
posted by jonmc at 5:45 PM on April 28, 2005
It's a wonderful opportunity for infiltration, to become a provocateur!
Otherwise... yeah exactly, jonmc.
posted by zoogleplex at 5:46 PM on April 28, 2005
Otherwise... yeah exactly, jonmc.
posted by zoogleplex at 5:46 PM on April 28, 2005
thanks for getting it, zoogle, I knew there was a reason I liked you.
And just to elaborate, If I was a doctor or a plumber even, I wouldn't refuse these people service. Then they're customers who shouldn't be denied basic amenities based on their beliefs, but to take this job is to be their employee or as they see it, a soldier in their army, which is a whole different story. And conversely, if I'm running an organization dedicated to a cause, I'd probably prefer that the employees of that organization believed in that cause. And truth be told, I doubt they'll have a hard time finding a born-again Mac expert. At my job there's (a very nice from my limited interaction with him) IT guy who spends every lunch break reading his Bible. And the head of his department is an Orthodox Jew for what it's worth.
posted by jonmc at 5:52 PM on April 28, 2005
And just to elaborate, If I was a doctor or a plumber even, I wouldn't refuse these people service. Then they're customers who shouldn't be denied basic amenities based on their beliefs, but to take this job is to be their employee or as they see it, a soldier in their army, which is a whole different story. And conversely, if I'm running an organization dedicated to a cause, I'd probably prefer that the employees of that organization believed in that cause. And truth be told, I doubt they'll have a hard time finding a born-again Mac expert. At my job there's (a very nice from my limited interaction with him) IT guy who spends every lunch break reading his Bible. And the head of his department is an Orthodox Jew for what it's worth.
posted by jonmc at 5:52 PM on April 28, 2005
I have heard of folks catching THE GAY from them thar macintoshes.
just sayin
posted by Rawhide at 5:56 PM on April 28, 2005
just sayin
posted by Rawhide at 5:56 PM on April 28, 2005
Well, my Macs do make me pretty happy, even joyous at times, actually, so technically there might be some truth there Rawhide.
posted by zoogleplex at 6:02 PM on April 28, 2005
posted by zoogleplex at 6:02 PM on April 28, 2005
OK, to turn the devils advocate on full blast, I have to ask this: how deep can your principles run if you're willing to work at the behest of people whose whole raison d'etre is diametrically opposed to your beliefs? Isn't that the very essence of "selling out?"
Could also be the very essence of professionalism in the pure capitalist sense.
I was seriously broke once after college and the only gig I could find was at this Microfilm company that was hard core gung-ho jesus-freak.
I told them honestly I was not a church goer but not an atheist either. I said my family was "Morma-lic" - my father was thrown out of the Mormon church for marrying my Catholic mother - who also was not welcomed back to her parish.
I told them my mom was the sort of Christian who quietly pasted tiny cut-out quotes from the bible, positive little aphorisms, on the insides of cupboards, and gave me her great grandfathers tattered bible as a birthday present once, etc... but that was about it as far as religious indoctrination. The interviewer got teary eyed when I told her this. So they hired me. They prayed at lunch. And there was no swearing of any kind allowed. Other than that it was just another stupid job.
To help me "fit in" they had paired me up with the only other 'non' practicing Christian. This crazy New Ager who prattled on about crystals, aliens from Atlantis and pyramid power and made me listen to Jazz Wolf and Classical Whale New Age music.
Soon I BEGGED to listen to old time gospel or country christian music (the only other music allowed besides classical). But she would always put in one of her Jazz Loon tapes because she got too many negative vibes from Beethoven.
After three weeks I couldn't take it. One day with out conscious control I screamed in the middle of film processing and literally ran out of the building to my car and sped off. Never to return. Yet they sent me Christmas cards with warm little notes for over three years.
Turns out I was the intolerant one. And you know... I'm ok wit dat.
posted by tkchrist at 7:00 PM on April 28, 2005
Could also be the very essence of professionalism in the pure capitalist sense.
I was seriously broke once after college and the only gig I could find was at this Microfilm company that was hard core gung-ho jesus-freak.
I told them honestly I was not a church goer but not an atheist either. I said my family was "Morma-lic" - my father was thrown out of the Mormon church for marrying my Catholic mother - who also was not welcomed back to her parish.
I told them my mom was the sort of Christian who quietly pasted tiny cut-out quotes from the bible, positive little aphorisms, on the insides of cupboards, and gave me her great grandfathers tattered bible as a birthday present once, etc... but that was about it as far as religious indoctrination. The interviewer got teary eyed when I told her this. So they hired me. They prayed at lunch. And there was no swearing of any kind allowed. Other than that it was just another stupid job.
To help me "fit in" they had paired me up with the only other 'non' practicing Christian. This crazy New Ager who prattled on about crystals, aliens from Atlantis and pyramid power and made me listen to Jazz Wolf and Classical Whale New Age music.
Soon I BEGGED to listen to old time gospel or country christian music (the only other music allowed besides classical). But she would always put in one of her Jazz Loon tapes because she got too many negative vibes from Beethoven.
After three weeks I couldn't take it. One day with out conscious control I screamed in the middle of film processing and literally ran out of the building to my car and sped off. Never to return. Yet they sent me Christmas cards with warm little notes for over three years.
Turns out I was the intolerant one. And you know... I'm ok wit dat.
posted by tkchrist at 7:00 PM on April 28, 2005
If you are using a new Macintosh running OS X then you probably have these "daemons" on your computer, hardly something a good Christian would want! This clearly illustrates that not only is Macintosh based on Darwinism, but Darwinism is based on Satanism.
Why, of course! However else could this possibly be?
Idiots.
posted by c13 at 8:02 PM on April 28, 2005
Why, of course! However else could this possibly be?
Idiots.
posted by c13 at 8:02 PM on April 28, 2005
First Day at work:
1) Installed keylogging daemons on all machines.
2) Told boss to "suck it"
A rousing success.
posted by sydnius at 8:57 PM on April 28, 2005
1) Installed keylogging daemons on all machines.
2) Told boss to "suck it"
A rousing success.
posted by sydnius at 8:57 PM on April 28, 2005
... that would be like starting a political party for "extreme centrists".
Dude, I am totally an 'extreme centrist'.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 10:35 PM on April 28, 2005
Dude, I am totally an 'extreme centrist'.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 10:35 PM on April 28, 2005
They're advertising for the Bastard Operator from HellHeaven?
posted by kcds at 6:21 AM on April 29, 2005
posted by kcds at 6:21 AM on April 29, 2005
I agree with heatherann's post above. Why is it so hard to understand that an organizations like FOTF would be at least as concerned with their workers' beliefs as with their skill?
Observers sometimes forget that people involved in religious organizations actually believe what they're preaching: their faith is the most important thing in their life.
posted by R590 at 6:39 AM on April 29, 2005
Observers sometimes forget that people involved in religious organizations actually believe what they're preaching: their faith is the most important thing in their life.
posted by R590 at 6:39 AM on April 29, 2005
Wow... Microsoft goes to the trouble of dissing the gay community to please the fundies... and the fundies go and use Macs anyway!
This is pretty much the perfect demonstration of how stupid, and futile, MS' recent cave-in to right-wing extremism was.
posted by Artifice_Eternity at 1:56 PM on April 29, 2005
This is pretty much the perfect demonstration of how stupid, and futile, MS' recent cave-in to right-wing extremism was.
posted by Artifice_Eternity at 1:56 PM on April 29, 2005
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Whatever shall we do?
posted by jonmc at 12:57 PM on April 28, 2005