Fish in your beer (Isinglass)
November 30, 2005 5:01 AM Subscribe
Serious vegetarians know to keep on the lookout for isinglass and other animal products in their beer. Isinglass is a fish-derived additive that's primarily used to help speed up the clarification of cask-conditioned ales, although some beer-makers will use it to reclaim batches that didn't filter properly. You can help keep your diet swimbladder-free with this awesome list.
[insert "drink like a fish" joke here]
posted by NinjaPirate at 5:16 AM on November 30, 2005
posted by NinjaPirate at 5:16 AM on November 30, 2005
Since Sleeman isn't on the list, I can't agree with the adjective "awesome".
posted by Hildegarde at 5:19 AM on November 30, 2005
posted by Hildegarde at 5:19 AM on November 30, 2005
Looks like all my tipples are foul and besmirched. Although I now feel rather more guilty about that than I used to.
Thanks.
Still, if they've found a use for tropical fish, I suppose that's something.
posted by NinjaPirate at 5:19 AM on November 30, 2005
Thanks.
Still, if they've found a use for tropical fish, I suppose that's something.
posted by NinjaPirate at 5:19 AM on November 30, 2005
Mayor Curley: "I see a conflict here-- 14-year-old girls who might reasonably be concerned with the welfare of fish don't drink much beer."
Two things:
1) There are plenty of adults that are vegetarian. I can think of five close friends off the top of my head.
2) You don't know 14-year-old girls very well.
posted by Plutor at 5:20 AM on November 30, 2005
Two things:
1) There are plenty of adults that are vegetarian. I can think of five close friends off the top of my head.
2) You don't know 14-year-old girls very well.
posted by Plutor at 5:20 AM on November 30, 2005
on preview- whoa plutor are you confessing some kind of beer service you provide to 14 yr old girls?!
posted by nola at 5:22 AM on November 30, 2005
posted by nola at 5:22 AM on November 30, 2005
Excellent list. I'm not a strict vegetarian; but I have friends who are and would appreciate the info.
And in my decades of enjoying brewskis I never knew this:
[From Dr K Ogden at Greene King brewery, in one of the email letters ref'd in the list]:
"As you are probably aware, beer is brewed from purely vegetable products - malt, unmalted cereals (sometimes), sugar, hops and water. Similarly, most of the processing aids are also of non-animal origin. The exception is isinglass finings. These are a very pure form of protein derived from the swim bladders of certain species of tropical fish. Finings are traditionally used throughout the British brewing industry to help remove suspended yeast and thus improve the clarity of the beer (and are also used to clarify some wines). As yet, no other substance has been found to be as effective. With keg beers (eg lagers and smooth beers) and beers in can and bottle, the vast majority of the finings are removed by filtration (although there may be trace amounts left). With cask conditioned beers (ie what CAMRA call 'real ale') most of the finings will be with the yeast sediment at the bottom of the cask."
-rm
posted by rmmcclay at 5:23 AM on November 30, 2005
And in my decades of enjoying brewskis I never knew this:
[From Dr K Ogden at Greene King brewery, in one of the email letters ref'd in the list]:
"As you are probably aware, beer is brewed from purely vegetable products - malt, unmalted cereals (sometimes), sugar, hops and water. Similarly, most of the processing aids are also of non-animal origin. The exception is isinglass finings. These are a very pure form of protein derived from the swim bladders of certain species of tropical fish. Finings are traditionally used throughout the British brewing industry to help remove suspended yeast and thus improve the clarity of the beer (and are also used to clarify some wines). As yet, no other substance has been found to be as effective. With keg beers (eg lagers and smooth beers) and beers in can and bottle, the vast majority of the finings are removed by filtration (although there may be trace amounts left). With cask conditioned beers (ie what CAMRA call 'real ale') most of the finings will be with the yeast sediment at the bottom of the cask."
-rm
posted by rmmcclay at 5:23 AM on November 30, 2005
So, how many of you all only ever knew that isinglass had something to do with "windows you can roll right down"?
posted by Wolfdog at 5:28 AM on November 30, 2005
posted by Wolfdog at 5:28 AM on November 30, 2005
I'm almost entirely vegetarian...which I suppose means I'm not a vegetarian at all. Okay, let's say I adhere to a severely meat-reduced diet. At any rate, beer is where I would draw the line even if I was a vegan. I don't care if there are chunks of pure beef floating around in it...you can take away my Creemore when you pry it out of my cold, dead fingers.
posted by The Card Cheat at 5:30 AM on November 30, 2005
posted by The Card Cheat at 5:30 AM on November 30, 2005
Or you could drink German beer; almost all of it is still brewed according to the original Reinheitgebot:
"For the preparation of beer, only malt, hops, yeast and water can be used."
If you want to be sure, use a Bavarian brand; they are extremely strict in their interpretation and don't allow any of the weakening that had to be introduced to comply with EU regulations (otherwise foreign beers brewed with for instance, wheat instead of barley would have had to be marked as "not really beer").
posted by PontifexPrimus at 5:35 AM on November 30, 2005
"For the preparation of beer, only malt, hops, yeast and water can be used."
If you want to be sure, use a Bavarian brand; they are extremely strict in their interpretation and don't allow any of the weakening that had to be introduced to comply with EU regulations (otherwise foreign beers brewed with for instance, wheat instead of barley would have had to be marked as "not really beer").
posted by PontifexPrimus at 5:35 AM on November 30, 2005
PontifexPrimus, from the first link:
"Even beer brewed under the Reinheitsgebot (a German "Purity Law" adopted in 1516 and the oldest food regulation in the world that is still in existence) does not mean that brewers are restricted from using clearing agents."
posted by Pendragon at 6:19 AM on November 30, 2005
"Even beer brewed under the Reinheitsgebot (a German "Purity Law" adopted in 1516 and the oldest food regulation in the world that is still in existence) does not mean that brewers are restricted from using clearing agents."
posted by Pendragon at 6:19 AM on November 30, 2005
You can help keep your diet swimbladder-free with this awesome list.
Or disheartening list depending on if your favorite brew is on there and you care about this sort of thing. Hey, at least you can still drink Bud Ice. Cheers.
posted by Pollomacho at 6:24 AM on November 30, 2005
Or disheartening list depending on if your favorite brew is on there and you care about this sort of thing. Hey, at least you can still drink Bud Ice. Cheers.
posted by Pollomacho at 6:24 AM on November 30, 2005
Oops--I've given at least one bottle of isinglass-clarified homemade wine to a vegetarian friend. I guess that's gotta stop.
posted by MrMoonPie at 6:26 AM on November 30, 2005
posted by MrMoonPie at 6:26 AM on November 30, 2005
As a confirmed flexitarian, I will continue to drink beer without worrying about its isinglass content. I am unable to find any of my favorite Austrian beers on the list, anyway.
posted by syzygy at 6:33 AM on November 30, 2005
posted by syzygy at 6:33 AM on November 30, 2005
Question: has anyone ever actually given up Guinness because of this? I could see giving up a lot of things (I'm dating a non-vegan veggie) but not that.
posted by graymouser at 6:47 AM on November 30, 2005
posted by graymouser at 6:47 AM on November 30, 2005
This list is very UK centric. My favourite beers (Fin du Monde and Maudite, both brewn in Québec) are not on it.
Ah well, can't drink no alcohol anymore, doesn't go well with my meds.
posted by kika at 6:55 AM on November 30, 2005
Ah well, can't drink no alcohol anymore, doesn't go well with my meds.
posted by kika at 6:55 AM on November 30, 2005
On a related note, the red dyes known as cochineal and carmine used in foods are made from dried beatles. Sometimes it appears in fruit juices, which are things you would typically assume are "vegetarian."
posted by deanc at 6:56 AM on November 30, 2005
posted by deanc at 6:56 AM on November 30, 2005
from the article: Even beer brewed under the Reinheitsgebot (a German "Purity Law" adopted in 1516 and the oldest food regulation in the world that is still in existence) does not mean that brewers are restricted from using clearing agents.
If this is really of concern to you perhaps you should just brew your own for complete control of your ingredients. Relax, have a homebrew.
posted by caddis at 6:58 AM on November 30, 2005
If this is really of concern to you perhaps you should just brew your own for complete control of your ingredients. Relax, have a homebrew.
posted by caddis at 6:58 AM on November 30, 2005
GUINNESS. "It's Just Like Drinkin' Mother's Milk
[oops, that's not vegan either]
posted by caddis at 7:00 AM on November 30, 2005
[oops, that's not vegan either]
posted by caddis at 7:00 AM on November 30, 2005
On a related note, the red dyes known as cochineal and carmine used in foods are made from dried beatles.
Those guys will do anything to make a comeback.
posted by monju_bosatsu at 7:02 AM on November 30, 2005
Those guys will do anything to make a comeback.
posted by monju_bosatsu at 7:02 AM on November 30, 2005
"It's Just Like Drinkin' Mother's Milk
[oops, that's not vegan either]
HAW! ...except, of course, it is. As long as it's your mother.
A related humorous point about so-called "vegetarians," and I include myself in that during the 15 years I called myself a vegetarian (before going vegan), is that most do not check to see whether their cheese contains stomach tissue from slaughtered calves, which would seem to be pretty non-vegetarian.
posted by soyjoy at 7:34 AM on November 30, 2005
[oops, that's not vegan either]
HAW! ...except, of course, it is. As long as it's your mother.
A related humorous point about so-called "vegetarians," and I include myself in that during the 15 years I called myself a vegetarian (before going vegan), is that most do not check to see whether their cheese contains stomach tissue from slaughtered calves, which would seem to be pretty non-vegetarian.
posted by soyjoy at 7:34 AM on November 30, 2005
before the anti-vegetarian coalition shows up, let me say as a vegetarian/ex-vegan, I probably couldn't give up my Guinness either. :(
posted by Dantien at 7:41 AM on November 30, 2005
posted by Dantien at 7:41 AM on November 30, 2005
How is mother's milk vegan? Why would it matter if it is the child's own mother? What about a wet nurse? How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?
posted by caddis at 7:44 AM on November 30, 2005
posted by caddis at 7:44 AM on November 30, 2005
It's vegan if it's consentual. Therefore, if we knew that cows were okay with the fact that we used their milk/body for our own consumption, then there would be no need to be vegan. At least that's what I was told. See also: a dog can still be vegan (and yes there are vegan dogs out there) if it eats its own feces.
posted by Kronoss at 8:02 AM on November 30, 2005
posted by Kronoss at 8:02 AM on November 30, 2005
Jeez, haven't these guys heard of Irish Moss? That's what I use to clear my cloudy batches.
posted by lumpenprole at 8:03 AM on November 30, 2005
posted by lumpenprole at 8:03 AM on November 30, 2005
Does the production of isinglass require the use of the Bass-o-matic?
posted by Wylie Kyoto at 8:08 AM on November 30, 2005
posted by Wylie Kyoto at 8:08 AM on November 30, 2005
I thought everyone knew that issinglass was used to "fine" beer and wine - which is why you can get veggie wines which don't use the stuff. I hasten to add here that I am not a vegetarian: it's an eating disorder I'm lucky enough not to suffer from.
I do have one question though. Is Issinglass better or worse than wearing leather shoes.
posted by rhymer at 8:17 AM on November 30, 2005
I do have one question though. Is Issinglass better or worse than wearing leather shoes.
posted by rhymer at 8:17 AM on November 30, 2005
Jeez, haven't these guys heard of Irish Moss?
Isinglass fines negatively charged particles (it has a positive charge) and Irish Moss and other similar vegetable fining agents fine positively charged particles (they have negative charges). Using both is the most efficient method of using fining agents. Irish Moss goes into the kettle, and isinglass is used after fermentation. Of course, you could just filter the beer like most commercial breweries. I would guess for them that isinglass used prior to filtration doesn't bring additional clarity to the beer so much as it improves filter life.
posted by caddis at 8:25 AM on November 30, 2005
Isinglass fines negatively charged particles (it has a positive charge) and Irish Moss and other similar vegetable fining agents fine positively charged particles (they have negative charges). Using both is the most efficient method of using fining agents. Irish Moss goes into the kettle, and isinglass is used after fermentation. Of course, you could just filter the beer like most commercial breweries. I would guess for them that isinglass used prior to filtration doesn't bring additional clarity to the beer so much as it improves filter life.
posted by caddis at 8:25 AM on November 30, 2005
I'd like to see one of these lists for wine. In case it helps any one else, I know that both Jackson-Triggs and Inniskillin wineries do not use isinglass in the production of their wines.
I've emailed them both to find out. Maybe I'll start-up my own list like this for wine.
posted by purephase at 8:30 AM on November 30, 2005
I've emailed them both to find out. Maybe I'll start-up my own list like this for wine.
posted by purephase at 8:30 AM on November 30, 2005
While I call myself vegetarian, I don't worry about isinglass in beer. Some things are just too painful to give up. These days it's easy to find vegetarian cheese in UK supermarkets.
posted by salmacis at 8:39 AM on November 30, 2005
posted by salmacis at 8:39 AM on November 30, 2005
The ingrediants used to "plaster" wine, that is to percipitate impurities, are not considered ingrediants, and are not listed as such.
In France anyway, they can be kept secret as a proprietary process, and usually consist of plaster of paris, but can include special traditional elements such as pig's blood.
posted by StickyCarpet at 9:01 AM on November 30, 2005
In France anyway, they can be kept secret as a proprietary process, and usually consist of plaster of paris, but can include special traditional elements such as pig's blood.
posted by StickyCarpet at 9:01 AM on November 30, 2005
Question: has anyone ever actually given up Guinness because of this? I could see giving up a lot of things (I'm dating a non-vegan veggie) but not that.
I'm a pretty strict vegan, and I started avoiding Guiness after finding out about the fish bladders.
posted by cmonkey at 9:05 AM on November 30, 2005
I'm a pretty strict vegan, and I started avoiding Guiness after finding out about the fish bladders.
posted by cmonkey at 9:05 AM on November 30, 2005
*shakes head* I've been a vegetarian for many many years (not Vegan, which to my mind - not to derail too much - is not only an extremely difficult diet, but kind of silly really) and the only thing that comes to mind when reading that list is that if you are so anal retentive that you are checking minor additives to alchohol, you have larger issues than following your chosen diet.
My recommendation for fellow veg-heads out there: We already have chosen a somewhat more demanding lifestyle than many, learn to live a little and enjoy your booze guilt free.
posted by elendil71 at 9:05 AM on November 30, 2005
My recommendation for fellow veg-heads out there: We already have chosen a somewhat more demanding lifestyle than many, learn to live a little and enjoy your booze guilt free.
posted by elendil71 at 9:05 AM on November 30, 2005
elendil71, how about people just consume (or not consume) what they want? I don't mean to snark, but I'm sure you don't appreciate it when people judge your eating habits, or make recommendations to you to give up vegetarianism. Why do you feel the need to call vegans silly and vegetarians who choose to be more strict than you anal retentive?
posted by amro at 9:11 AM on November 30, 2005
posted by amro at 9:11 AM on November 30, 2005
(And for what it's worth, I'm a vegetarian but I don't care what anyone else eats, and I'm not so strict as to worry about what's in my beer, but more power to people who are.)
posted by amro at 9:13 AM on November 30, 2005
posted by amro at 9:13 AM on November 30, 2005
We already have chosen a somewhat more demanding lifestyle than many, learn to live a little and enjoy your booze guilt free.
I am a raging drunkard, and being vegan and drinking vegan beers has not stopped me from enjoying my booze in the slightest.
posted by cmonkey at 9:13 AM on November 30, 2005
I am a raging drunkard, and being vegan and drinking vegan beers has not stopped me from enjoying my booze in the slightest.
posted by cmonkey at 9:13 AM on November 30, 2005
Sorry guys. I'll never be able to give this up.
and yes there are vegan dogs out there
Making a pet have a poor diet just to fit in with your ideals is animal cruelty.
Their digestive systems were not meant to process vegetables.
posted by jeblis at 9:17 AM on November 30, 2005
Re this: curiously, the original Reinheitsgebot did not include yeast.
posted by doozer_ex_machina at 9:18 AM on November 30, 2005
posted by doozer_ex_machina at 9:18 AM on November 30, 2005
jeblis: we all know what a bleeding piece of meat looks like. Show some sensitivity and don't post images of meat in threads heavily populated with vegetarians/vegans. You can make your point without the pic.
And by the way, "I just really like steak" is not considered by vegetarians to be an acceptable reason to eat meat, it just sounds lazy. Honestly, I don't care what you eat (or don't eat).
posted by arcticwoman at 9:45 AM on November 30, 2005
And by the way, "I just really like steak" is not considered by vegetarians to be an acceptable reason to eat meat, it just sounds lazy. Honestly, I don't care what you eat (or don't eat).
posted by arcticwoman at 9:45 AM on November 30, 2005
And more on-topic: I wish Canadian beers were on that list.
posted by arcticwoman at 9:46 AM on November 30, 2005
posted by arcticwoman at 9:46 AM on November 30, 2005
Show some sensitivity and don't post images of meat in threads heavily populated with vegetarians/vegans.
You know I could see your point if this were called VeganFilter, but it's not, so tough. It's a mainstream community so you're going to get multiple oppinions on every topic.
posted by jeblis at 10:04 AM on November 30, 2005
You know I could see your point if this were called VeganFilter, but it's not, so tough. It's a mainstream community so you're going to get multiple oppinions on every topic.
posted by jeblis at 10:04 AM on November 30, 2005
Is heroin still vegan if it's processed by the intestines of underprivileged third world drug mules?
My friend wants to know. Because he'll totally quit.
posted by Marnie at 10:15 AM on November 30, 2005
My friend wants to know. Because he'll totally quit.
posted by Marnie at 10:15 AM on November 30, 2005
And by the way, "I just really like steak" is not considered by vegetarians to be an acceptable reason to eat meat, it just sounds lazy. Honestly, I don't care what you eat (or don't eat).
I didn't know I had to have an acceptable reason to eat anything. What about people who are vegetians becuase they really like vegetables? Are they lazy too?
posted by ozomatli at 10:46 AM on November 30, 2005
I didn't know I had to have an acceptable reason to eat anything. What about people who are vegetians becuase they really like vegetables? Are they lazy too?
posted by ozomatli at 10:46 AM on November 30, 2005
jeblis, dogs are omnivores. They can live just fine on a well-prepared vegan diet. Cats, on the other hand, are obligate carnivores and should never be fed a vegetarian or vegan diet; they can't convert vegetable-sourced beta carotene into Vitamin A and need to get already-converted Vitamin A from liver or fish oil. Cats also need taurine, which isn't found in plant food and is tough to absorb from supplementation.
posted by jesourie at 10:56 AM on November 30, 2005
posted by jesourie at 10:56 AM on November 30, 2005
dogs are omnivores
While I can't find anything I'd call definitive on the subject it seems that that is still undetermined.
posted by jeblis at 11:04 AM on November 30, 2005
While I can't find anything I'd call definitive on the subject it seems that that is still undetermined.
posted by jeblis at 11:04 AM on November 30, 2005
jeblis -
Well, that wasn't an opinion, it was a picture, but you have a point anyway. I don't consider myself to have a right to be protected from any picture I might find distasteful, within the reasonable boundaries set by metafilter guidelines.
However, you might wish to consider that your apparent need to post a giant picture of a bleeding hunk of meat in a thread about the possibility of a product made from fish bladders being present in beer makes you seem a little ... defensive. It basically looks like a giant scream of "YOU CAN'T TAKE AWAY MY MEAT! MEEEEEAT! MEAT MEAT MEAT! MY MEAT! MINE!" in a thread where, as far as I can tell, most people were quietly discussing beer.
In all honesty, all it does for me is make you wonder why you're being so bizarrely paranoid.
posted by kyrademon at 11:59 AM on November 30, 2005
Well, that wasn't an opinion, it was a picture, but you have a point anyway. I don't consider myself to have a right to be protected from any picture I might find distasteful, within the reasonable boundaries set by metafilter guidelines.
However, you might wish to consider that your apparent need to post a giant picture of a bleeding hunk of meat in a thread about the possibility of a product made from fish bladders being present in beer makes you seem a little ... defensive. It basically looks like a giant scream of "YOU CAN'T TAKE AWAY MY MEAT! MEEEEEAT! MEAT MEAT MEAT! MY MEAT! MINE!" in a thread where, as far as I can tell, most people were quietly discussing beer.
In all honesty, all it does for me is make you wonder why you're being so bizarrely paranoid.
posted by kyrademon at 11:59 AM on November 30, 2005
While I can't find anything I'd call definitive on the subject it seems that that is still undetermined.
It's always entertaining when the people who haven't researched a given vegetarian topic consider themselves as knowledgeable about it as those who have, and having stated some definitive position, cite their own lack of research as evidence that they're not necessarily wrong. And really, jeblis, I'm not just talking about you - I do mean that it's always entertaining. (To me, anyway.)
posted by soyjoy at 12:19 PM on November 30, 2005
It's always entertaining when the people who haven't researched a given vegetarian topic consider themselves as knowledgeable about it as those who have, and having stated some definitive position, cite their own lack of research as evidence that they're not necessarily wrong. And really, jeblis, I'm not just talking about you - I do mean that it's always entertaining. (To me, anyway.)
posted by soyjoy at 12:19 PM on November 30, 2005
To be fair soyjoy, you have made a claim and not backed it up with evidence. You may be right, but I would like to see your data.
posted by ozomatli at 12:24 PM on November 30, 2005
posted by ozomatli at 12:24 PM on November 30, 2005
Yes, please provide evidence that you have been consistently entertained, soyjoy.
posted by amro at 12:28 PM on November 30, 2005
posted by amro at 12:28 PM on November 30, 2005
It's always entertaining when the people who haven't researched a given vegetarian topic
What I mean is I can find plenty of people claiming both are true, but nothing I would categorize as scientifically definitive. Since you mentioned it, could you please point me to a peer reviewed article in a scientifically respected journal? In either case nobody has yet found the ideal diet for humans let alone dogs, but it seems selfish to place your ideals on your dogs diet. Wouldn't it be better to research a particular food (be it meat or veggies) for the dog and give them that? Which I doubt is a strict vegan diet.
"YOU CAN'T TAKE AWAY MY MEAT! MEEEEEAT! MEAT MEAT MEAT! MY MEAT! MINE!"
So yeah that's a little defensive. I get that way with anybody who tries to tell me what to do (as long as I'm not harming anybody else) . You can add religion, government, parents, etc. to that list. I'm not saying you did this, just that a lot vegetarians do.
posted by jeblis at 12:55 PM on November 30, 2005
What I mean is I can find plenty of people claiming both are true, but nothing I would categorize as scientifically definitive. Since you mentioned it, could you please point me to a peer reviewed article in a scientifically respected journal? In either case nobody has yet found the ideal diet for humans let alone dogs, but it seems selfish to place your ideals on your dogs diet. Wouldn't it be better to research a particular food (be it meat or veggies) for the dog and give them that? Which I doubt is a strict vegan diet.
"YOU CAN'T TAKE AWAY MY MEAT! MEEEEEAT! MEAT MEAT MEAT! MY MEAT! MINE!"
So yeah that's a little defensive. I get that way with anybody who tries to tell me what to do (as long as I'm not harming anybody else) . You can add religion, government, parents, etc. to that list. I'm not saying you did this, just that a lot vegetarians do.
posted by jeblis at 12:55 PM on November 30, 2005
What I mean is I can find plenty of people claiming both are true, but nothing I would categorize as scientifically definitive.
Then you shouldn't have made the statement "Their digestive systems were not meant to process vegetables." Either back that up, or back off of it.
Meanwhile, it was actually jesourie (rather than me, ozomatli) who made the statement "dogs are omnivores," which we could parse all day given different shadings of the word 'omnivore,' but the next sentence put it clearly in context for this discussion: "They can live just fine on a well-prepared vegan diet." This is backed up not only by my first-hand knowledge of many dogs who have been raised and thrived on such a diet, but on extensive reading about nutrition needs of various animals. And in case you'll credit the NRC Subcommittee on Dog and Cat Nutrition of the National Academies (comprising the National Academy of Sciences, the National Academy of Engineering, the Institute of Medicine and the National Research Council) as having standing to address this question, their Nutrient Requirements of Dogs and Cats states quite unequivocally that
posted by soyjoy at 1:25 PM on November 30, 2005
Then you shouldn't have made the statement "Their digestive systems were not meant to process vegetables." Either back that up, or back off of it.
Meanwhile, it was actually jesourie (rather than me, ozomatli) who made the statement "dogs are omnivores," which we could parse all day given different shadings of the word 'omnivore,' but the next sentence put it clearly in context for this discussion: "They can live just fine on a well-prepared vegan diet." This is backed up not only by my first-hand knowledge of many dogs who have been raised and thrived on such a diet, but on extensive reading about nutrition needs of various animals. And in case you'll credit the NRC Subcommittee on Dog and Cat Nutrition of the National Academies (comprising the National Academy of Sciences, the National Academy of Engineering, the Institute of Medicine and the National Research Council) as having standing to address this question, their Nutrient Requirements of Dogs and Cats states quite unequivocally that
- "Since dogs are descended from omnivores, they are not strict meat eaters. They are remarkably adaptable to a wide range of ingredients, texture, and form in terms of what they will eat. Though many dogs may prefer animal-based protein, they can thrive on a vegetarian diet."
posted by soyjoy at 1:25 PM on November 30, 2005
Thanks for that link, soyjoy. I was having a tough time finding something that didn't reference PETA or vegan.org or some other likely-to-be-seen-as-biased source.
posted by jesourie at 1:46 PM on November 30, 2005
posted by jesourie at 1:46 PM on November 30, 2005
Either back that up, or back off of it.
That's what I meant when I said: "it seems that that is still undetermined"
or in other words: I quickly looked it up after I made the initial statement, found sources saying both, but nothing I trusted as definitive. Got lazy. Posted that. Figured someone would do the work for me. Thanks!
Yes I'd be inclined to trust the above source.
I'm gonna start feeding my dog the all chocolate diet.
posted by jeblis at 1:53 PM on November 30, 2005
That's what I meant when I said: "it seems that that is still undetermined"
or in other words: I quickly looked it up after I made the initial statement, found sources saying both, but nothing I trusted as definitive. Got lazy. Posted that. Figured someone would do the work for me. Thanks!
Yes I'd be inclined to trust the above source.
I'm gonna start feeding my dog the all chocolate diet.
posted by jeblis at 1:53 PM on November 30, 2005
Since dogs are descended from omnivores... in terms of what they will eat. Though many dogs may prefer animal-based protein, they can thrive on a vegetarian diet.
Key words to that cite were the words "omnivore", "will" and "can".
Omnivore means they will thrive best - most naturally - on BOTH. Not one or the other. Both. Wild canines eat the vegetable matter out of the entrails of a kill. They will graze on grasses and berries. AND they will kill by natural preference for meat.
No canine in the wild "will" only eat vegetable diet. Sure they "can." But they wont' - unless they have to or you make them. Sure they may be able to survive... but... oh heck... why do I bother.
Do this: Place one plate of fresh raw hamburger and one plate of vegetable protein on the ground in front of your dog . Do this every day for a month. Tell us how many times he/she chose the veg protein first.
Imposing your ideals and the risk of your animals health is stupid.
posted by tkchrist at 1:54 PM on November 30, 2005
Key words to that cite were the words "omnivore", "will" and "can".
Omnivore means they will thrive best - most naturally - on BOTH. Not one or the other. Both. Wild canines eat the vegetable matter out of the entrails of a kill. They will graze on grasses and berries. AND they will kill by natural preference for meat.
No canine in the wild "will" only eat vegetable diet. Sure they "can." But they wont' - unless they have to or you make them. Sure they may be able to survive... but... oh heck... why do I bother.
Do this: Place one plate of fresh raw hamburger and one plate of vegetable protein on the ground in front of your dog . Do this every day for a month. Tell us how many times he/she chose the veg protein first.
Imposing your ideals and the risk of your animals health is stupid.
posted by tkchrist at 1:54 PM on November 30, 2005
Soo how about those that try to make their cats vegetarian?
posted by jeblis at 1:56 PM on November 30, 2005
posted by jeblis at 1:56 PM on November 30, 2005
as long as I'm not harming anybody else --jeblis
Well, that's debatable. Not to be a jerk, but from the perspective of a vegetarian or vegan, you are indeed harming someone besides yourself by consuming animal products: the animals. You've probably made peace with this, as I suppose all meat-eaters must, but there is most certainly harm involved. If that doesn't bother you, by all means, have another hamburger.
As for dogs, I personally don't think they should be fed a vegetarian diet. I'm not a an expert on the subject, but I think dogs need meat more than people do, and it seems absurd to impose my own dietary restrictions on my pet. However, I do have a friend at work whose dog is actually allergic to meat and does fine without it.
posted by apis mellifera at 1:58 PM on November 30, 2005
Well, that's debatable. Not to be a jerk, but from the perspective of a vegetarian or vegan, you are indeed harming someone besides yourself by consuming animal products: the animals. You've probably made peace with this, as I suppose all meat-eaters must, but there is most certainly harm involved. If that doesn't bother you, by all means, have another hamburger.
As for dogs, I personally don't think they should be fed a vegetarian diet. I'm not a an expert on the subject, but I think dogs need meat more than people do, and it seems absurd to impose my own dietary restrictions on my pet. However, I do have a friend at work whose dog is actually allergic to meat and does fine without it.
posted by apis mellifera at 1:58 PM on November 30, 2005
Soo how about those that try to make their cats vegetarian?
They're irresponsible and cruel. "Yeah, I've got this pet snake. The guy at the pet store says he needs to eat live mice, but I think I'll feed him potatoes."
posted by apis mellifera at 2:01 PM on November 30, 2005
They're irresponsible and cruel. "Yeah, I've got this pet snake. The guy at the pet store says he needs to eat live mice, but I think I'll feed him potatoes."
posted by apis mellifera at 2:01 PM on November 30, 2005
from the perspective of a vegetarian or vegan, you are indeed harming someone besides yourself
Knew that was comming. By someone I meant some human. I realize that others have a different set of ethics here. I'm not asking them to change I'm just asking them not to impose their beliefs on me.
posted by jeblis at 2:03 PM on November 30, 2005
Knew that was comming. By someone I meant some human. I realize that others have a different set of ethics here. I'm not asking them to change I'm just asking them not to impose their beliefs on me.
posted by jeblis at 2:03 PM on November 30, 2005
I think the question of people who refuse to allow their cats to drink "animal-friendly" beer would be more relevant.
posted by soyjoy at 2:05 PM on November 30, 2005
posted by soyjoy at 2:05 PM on November 30, 2005
I do have a friend at work whose dog is actually allergic to meat and does fine without it
Allergic to meat? All meat? I find this very, very unlikely. Maybe store bought meat protein pet food? I think they get allergic to the additives, mites etc more than the meat portion of the food.
We make our all our pet's food to avoid allergies. Some really inbred breeds seem to highly susceptible to food allergies no matter what you do (another reason I think pure breeds are a bad thing). But you can make your pet food very cheaply and it is so much better than store bought. Organic hamburger (or ground turkey) mixed with oatmeal, shredded carrots, vegetable oil and garlic. Man they can't get enough.
posted by tkchrist at 2:07 PM on November 30, 2005
Allergic to meat? All meat? I find this very, very unlikely. Maybe store bought meat protein pet food? I think they get allergic to the additives, mites etc more than the meat portion of the food.
We make our all our pet's food to avoid allergies. Some really inbred breeds seem to highly susceptible to food allergies no matter what you do (another reason I think pure breeds are a bad thing). But you can make your pet food very cheaply and it is so much better than store bought. Organic hamburger (or ground turkey) mixed with oatmeal, shredded carrots, vegetable oil and garlic. Man they can't get enough.
posted by tkchrist at 2:07 PM on November 30, 2005
Allergic to meat? All meat?
Well, I don't know all the ins and outs. That's what she has told me, though.
posted by apis mellifera at 2:21 PM on November 30, 2005
Well, I don't know all the ins and outs. That's what she has told me, though.
posted by apis mellifera at 2:21 PM on November 30, 2005
Imposing your ideals and the risk of your animals health is stupid.
Read soyjoy's link. The science is pretty clear that it is not risking your dog's health to feed them vegetarian, just like it doesn't hurt your health to be vegetarian. It's not like this is some article of divine faith, its biology, you can actually find these things out.
But it does depend on the animal. I'm a vegetarian, but my cats eat meat, because that's what they need and in my opinion survival is moral (so yes, I would eat meat if I *had* to do so to survive, but people in modern Western society don't have to).
In my experience, leave a cat or dog alone without their normal food in your kitchen and they'll eat whatever they can get, meat or not. My cats love bread and chips, for some reason (probably the salt on the chips, not sure about the bread), and they're such indoor cats that they prefer their processed meat-based cat food over real meat.
posted by wildcrdj at 2:41 PM on November 30, 2005
Read soyjoy's link. The science is pretty clear that it is not risking your dog's health to feed them vegetarian, just like it doesn't hurt your health to be vegetarian. It's not like this is some article of divine faith, its biology, you can actually find these things out.
But it does depend on the animal. I'm a vegetarian, but my cats eat meat, because that's what they need and in my opinion survival is moral (so yes, I would eat meat if I *had* to do so to survive, but people in modern Western society don't have to).
In my experience, leave a cat or dog alone without their normal food in your kitchen and they'll eat whatever they can get, meat or not. My cats love bread and chips, for some reason (probably the salt on the chips, not sure about the bread), and they're such indoor cats that they prefer their processed meat-based cat food over real meat.
posted by wildcrdj at 2:41 PM on November 30, 2005
I was trying to say, jeblis, that you seemed to have had that reaction despite the fact that no one here seems to be trying to force you into a vegetarian diet. That's why it read as oddly defensive to me.
*shrug* No big deal, I guess.
posted by kyrademon at 2:58 PM on November 30, 2005
*shrug* No big deal, I guess.
posted by kyrademon at 2:58 PM on November 30, 2005
I'm not asking them to change I'm just asking them not to impose their beliefs on me.
This thread was about vegan beer before you got all defensive and pissy and threatened by what other people choose to put into their bodies. Feels more like you're imposing your beliefs on us.
posted by cmonkey at 3:12 PM on November 30, 2005
This thread was about vegan beer before you got all defensive and pissy and threatened by what other people choose to put into their bodies. Feels more like you're imposing your beliefs on us.
posted by cmonkey at 3:12 PM on November 30, 2005
This is funny. As a former wine industry professional, there are lots of wines that are fined with isinglas, and there are still even more that are fined with gelatin. Some are also fined with casein. Then there's eggwhites... Vegans and vegetarians are pretty much screwed unless there's some kind of requirement for labelling of fining agents. I'd be willing to bet that any vegetarian that drinks wine unknowingly consumes products that are produced using animal byproducts. Bottoms up!
posted by Eekacat at 4:43 PM on November 30, 2005
posted by Eekacat at 4:43 PM on November 30, 2005
Ahh wasn't defensive until somebody tried to claim this thread for vegetarians/vegans only.
posted by jeblis at 4:49 PM on November 30, 2005
posted by jeblis at 4:49 PM on November 30, 2005
The science is pretty clear that it is not risking your dog's health to feed them vegetarian
I read the link. The science clear in that it says dogs "can" eat a vegetable protein diet. It basically says "they will eat it and it seems to be ok for them." Not that it is optimal nutrition. Remember they are basing the comparison on dogs who eat commercial dog food. But I'd like to see the actual research not simply a FAQ.
Anyway. It is still an IMPOSED diet - based on our limited view of some ethical standard. It's not natural to them. And you can say that living with us - under our society is imposed as well. But I'd like to give my animal at least something that simulates closely to his natural needs and proclivities as possible.
And BTW not all humans can live - at least not well - on a vegan diet. And I, as a former vegan, am one.
posted by tkchrist at 5:40 PM on November 30, 2005
I read the link. The science clear in that it says dogs "can" eat a vegetable protein diet. It basically says "they will eat it and it seems to be ok for them." Not that it is optimal nutrition. Remember they are basing the comparison on dogs who eat commercial dog food. But I'd like to see the actual research not simply a FAQ.
Anyway. It is still an IMPOSED diet - based on our limited view of some ethical standard. It's not natural to them. And you can say that living with us - under our society is imposed as well. But I'd like to give my animal at least something that simulates closely to his natural needs and proclivities as possible.
And BTW not all humans can live - at least not well - on a vegan diet. And I, as a former vegan, am one.
posted by tkchrist at 5:40 PM on November 30, 2005
Eekacat writes "This is funny. As a former wine industry professional, there are lots of wines that are fined with isinglas, and there are still even more that are fined with gelatin. Some are also fined with casein. Then there's eggwhites... Vegans and vegetarians are pretty much screwed unless there's some kind of requirement for labelling of fining agents. I'd be willing to bet that any vegetarian that drinks wine unknowingly consumes products that are produced using animal byproducts. Bottoms up!"
I used to serve french fries made with beef tallow to people who followed Hindu beliefs. Using your logic, that's just fucking hilarious.
The only real self-riteous attitudes in this thread are from people who have an issue with the vegetarian/vegan lifestyle. It's a personal choice and while I realize that some people who follow it can be a bit smug (myself included) you have to realize that our choice is constantly maligned by the remaining 98% (complete guess) of the population who do not share our beliefs.
jeblis writes "Knew that was comming. By someone I meant some human. I realize that others have a different set of ethics here. I'm not asking them to change I'm just asking them not to impose their beliefs on me."
No one in this thread tried to
posted by purephase at 7:39 PM on November 30, 2005
I used to serve french fries made with beef tallow to people who followed Hindu beliefs. Using your logic, that's just fucking hilarious.
The only real self-riteous attitudes in this thread are from people who have an issue with the vegetarian/vegan lifestyle. It's a personal choice and while I realize that some people who follow it can be a bit smug (myself included) you have to realize that our choice is constantly maligned by the remaining 98% (complete guess) of the population who do not share our beliefs.
jeblis writes "Knew that was comming. By someone I meant some human. I realize that others have a different set of ethics here. I'm not asking them to change I'm just asking them not to impose their beliefs on me."
No one in this thread tried to
impose their beliefson you. You jumped in, posted a big picture of meat and made an offhand comment about your inability to drop what you like. The picture is not even related to the subject of the post, so I can only surmise that you were going for the shock factor of posting it in a thread largely populated with vegetarian and vegan pro comments.
posted by purephase at 7:39 PM on November 30, 2005
"Do this: Place one plate of fresh raw hamburger and one plate of vegetable protein on the ground in front of your dog . Do this every day for a month. Tell us how many times he/she chose the veg protein first."
Put a plate of butter in front of your dog, and a plate of dry animal-based dog food, and see how often they choose the dry food. Just because the dog will choose something first doesn't make it more healthy, you histrionic ass.
And Jeblis, come off of it. No one cares about your diet or dick size, so drop it.
posted by klangklangston at 7:49 PM on November 30, 2005
Put a plate of butter in front of your dog, and a plate of dry animal-based dog food, and see how often they choose the dry food. Just because the dog will choose something first doesn't make it more healthy, you histrionic ass.
And Jeblis, come off of it. No one cares about your diet or dick size, so drop it.
posted by klangklangston at 7:49 PM on November 30, 2005
No one in this thread tried to impose their beliefs on you.
Nope no one here has. PETA does, but I'll admit I made an unfair generalization and vented some anger *after* someone tried to tell me what I can and can't post in a thread.
On a general topic discussion board I don't think a discussion of the merits of veganism in a vegan related thread is too far off topic.
Anyway the steak photo/comment was meant just a tongue-in-cheek comment, what I really was interested in discussing was the merits of making a dog a vegan.
And Jeblis, come off of it. No one cares about your diet or dick size, so drop it.
well since you've already seen my diet...
posted by jeblis at 8:07 PM on November 30, 2005
Nope no one here has. PETA does, but I'll admit I made an unfair generalization and vented some anger *after* someone tried to tell me what I can and can't post in a thread.
On a general topic discussion board I don't think a discussion of the merits of veganism in a vegan related thread is too far off topic.
Anyway the steak photo/comment was meant just a tongue-in-cheek comment, what I really was interested in discussing was the merits of making a dog a vegan.
And Jeblis, come off of it. No one cares about your diet or dick size, so drop it.
well since you've already seen my diet...
posted by jeblis at 8:07 PM on November 30, 2005
It should be pointed out that, at least here in the US, isinglass is not a routinely used filtering agent. About the only brewers that I've seen use isinglass to fine a beer are looking to maintain a traditional British aspect to their brewing.
Virtually everyone else either just filters or hits the beer with a negatively charged clarifying agent like Polyclar PVPP or a silicia based agent before passing through a DE or pad filter. The main point of the negative agents is to try and drop polyphenols and proteins that form chill haze. Many brewers don't even follow this step since they hit the kettles hard with kettle fining agents like Irish Moss and Breakbrite (clay/Irish moss) to drop the protein before you ferment.
Isinglass is traditionally used to clear yeast out of a cask and therefore isn't typically needed here since the yeast is generally crashed out via force cooling in the conditioning tanks.
As for the whole vegetarian/vegan angle, if it's your moral/ethical code and it doesn't infringe upon me, go forth and have fun. I'm just a brewer
posted by drewbage1847 at 12:26 AM on December 1, 2005
Virtually everyone else either just filters or hits the beer with a negatively charged clarifying agent like Polyclar PVPP or a silicia based agent before passing through a DE or pad filter. The main point of the negative agents is to try and drop polyphenols and proteins that form chill haze. Many brewers don't even follow this step since they hit the kettles hard with kettle fining agents like Irish Moss and Breakbrite (clay/Irish moss) to drop the protein before you ferment.
Isinglass is traditionally used to clear yeast out of a cask and therefore isn't typically needed here since the yeast is generally crashed out via force cooling in the conditioning tanks.
As for the whole vegetarian/vegan angle, if it's your moral/ethical code and it doesn't infringe upon me, go forth and have fun. I'm just a brewer
posted by drewbage1847 at 12:26 AM on December 1, 2005
remaining 98% (complete guess) of the population who do not share our beliefs.
I have seen numbers that indicate that 4-6% of the population is vegan. Probably more these days, it's a growing trend.
posted by cmonkey at 9:27 AM on December 1, 2005
I have seen numbers that indicate that 4-6% of the population is vegan. Probably more these days, it's a growing trend.
posted by cmonkey at 9:27 AM on December 1, 2005
cmonkey writes "I have seen numbers that indicate that 4-6% of the population is vegan. Probably more these days, it's a growing trend."
I'm sure you meant vegetarian instead of vegan, but your numbers look right. I was a little pessimistic in my initial guess. ;)
posted by purephase at 11:21 AM on December 1, 2005
I'm sure you meant vegetarian instead of vegan, but your numbers look right. I was a little pessimistic in my initial guess. ;)
posted by purephase at 11:21 AM on December 1, 2005
Cecil Adams wants to remind you that a lot of makeup contains fish scales.
posted by Miko at 12:32 PM on December 1, 2005
posted by Miko at 12:32 PM on December 1, 2005
you histrionic ass.
Sheesh. Klang. You know exactly what I was saying but just HAD to be an insulting dickhead. I hope it was fun. Is there a way I can killfile you? Or you me? Because please do.
Let me put it another way:
I wasn't implying that dogs have the innate ability to decide what is best for them. However their instincts - while not always a fit for living in the modern human world - are there for a reason. Canines evolved to eat meat. Not exclusively. But none the less - they eat meat. Claiming that switching them to an ALL veggie diet is BEST for them is absurd. Because that is all about what the human wants. Not what is BEST for the dog. The link to the study never stated a veggie diet is BEST for a dog. And what is best for the dog would to be to come as close to the natural diet as possible.
There. Was that too bombastic?
posted by tkchrist at 1:37 PM on December 1, 2005
Sheesh. Klang. You know exactly what I was saying but just HAD to be an insulting dickhead. I hope it was fun. Is there a way I can killfile you? Or you me? Because please do.
Let me put it another way:
I wasn't implying that dogs have the innate ability to decide what is best for them. However their instincts - while not always a fit for living in the modern human world - are there for a reason. Canines evolved to eat meat. Not exclusively. But none the less - they eat meat. Claiming that switching them to an ALL veggie diet is BEST for them is absurd. Because that is all about what the human wants. Not what is BEST for the dog. The link to the study never stated a veggie diet is BEST for a dog. And what is best for the dog would to be to come as close to the natural diet as possible.
There. Was that too bombastic?
posted by tkchrist at 1:37 PM on December 1, 2005
Thanks, plutor. I never know, and indeed I care.
You don't know 14-year-old girls very well.
Seriously. In my class, the freshman girls were fucking lushes by that point.
posted by mrgrimm at 5:14 PM on December 1, 2005
You don't know 14-year-old girls very well.
Seriously. In my class, the freshman girls were fucking lushes by that point.
posted by mrgrimm at 5:14 PM on December 1, 2005
Because that is all about what the human wants.
This is exactly the crux of the thing: The lives of domesticated animals are always all about what the human wants. The reason the dog is not eating its so-called natural, optimal diet (which apparently "naturally" includes much more feces and vomit than most dogs are permitted) is that this dog is now, for better or for worse, part of human civilization. Hey, maybe the dog would prefer a more expensive dog food, and maybe its "owner" decides that's tough, it's only gonna get Brand X. Where's the outrage?
If you have a problem (short of any actual detriment to their health, of which there is none) with humans deciding what to feed their dogs, take it up with the people who domesticated them thousands of years ago.
And...
And BTW not all humans can live - at least not well - on a vegan diet.
If you have some personal experience on this that trumps the advice of the American Dietetic Association, perhaps you could forward it to them so that they can look into it and update their position on this. Otherwise we can sit here and argue anecdotes all day.
posted by soyjoy at 9:46 AM on December 5, 2005
This is exactly the crux of the thing: The lives of domesticated animals are always all about what the human wants. The reason the dog is not eating its so-called natural, optimal diet (which apparently "naturally" includes much more feces and vomit than most dogs are permitted) is that this dog is now, for better or for worse, part of human civilization. Hey, maybe the dog would prefer a more expensive dog food, and maybe its "owner" decides that's tough, it's only gonna get Brand X. Where's the outrage?
If you have a problem (short of any actual detriment to their health, of which there is none) with humans deciding what to feed their dogs, take it up with the people who domesticated them thousands of years ago.
And...
And BTW not all humans can live - at least not well - on a vegan diet.
If you have some personal experience on this that trumps the advice of the American Dietetic Association, perhaps you could forward it to them so that they can look into it and update their position on this. Otherwise we can sit here and argue anecdotes all day.
posted by soyjoy at 9:46 AM on December 5, 2005
"Sheesh. Klang. You know exactly what I was saying but just HAD to be an insulting dickhead. I hope it was fun. Is there a way I can killfile you? Or you me? Because please do."
Dickhead? Maybe. But you're obviously interested in supporting my "tkchrist is a histrionic ass" assessment.
posted by klangklangston at 1:48 PM on December 5, 2005
Dickhead? Maybe. But you're obviously interested in supporting my "tkchrist is a histrionic ass" assessment.
posted by klangklangston at 1:48 PM on December 5, 2005
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I haven't eaten meat or fish since 1988, but I guess I'm not a vegetarian. I haven't looked for isinglass in my beer and I have no plans to start.
posted by Mayor Curley at 5:13 AM on November 30, 2005