Scalia pulls a Cheney (not the shooting kind)
March 30, 2006 8:40 AM Subscribe
I think all of the relevant parts of that letter are addressed in the Herald article.
posted by rxrfrx at 8:50 AM on March 30, 2006
posted by rxrfrx at 8:50 AM on March 30, 2006
I dunno, seems like he was joking around and people are trying to make the photo into more than it is.
posted by mathowie at 8:51 AM on March 30, 2006
posted by mathowie at 8:51 AM on March 30, 2006
I'll buy that. He really shouldn't have lied though, if that was the case.
posted by rxrfrx at 8:51 AM on March 30, 2006
posted by rxrfrx at 8:51 AM on March 30, 2006
I sort of liked the "I'm Supreme Fucking Court Justice Tony Soprano and If You Don't Like It, You Can Shove It Up Your Bada-Bing" flava of Scalia doing this right after chowing down on the body of Christ.
What I don't like is when Scalia wipes his ass with the Bill of Rights.
posted by digaman at 8:52 AM on March 30, 2006
What I don't like is when Scalia wipes his ass with the Bill of Rights.
posted by digaman at 8:52 AM on March 30, 2006
This is a non-issue.
posted by NationalKato at 8:52 AM on March 30, 2006
posted by NationalKato at 8:52 AM on March 30, 2006
He really shouldn't have lied though, if that was the case.
posted by rxrfrx at 10:51 AM CST on March 30
What evidence do you have he lied? Other than your prejudices?
posted by dios at 8:53 AM on March 30, 2006
posted by rxrfrx at 10:51 AM CST on March 30
What evidence do you have he lied? Other than your prejudices?
posted by dios at 8:53 AM on March 30, 2006
Heeey...whoa. You can't say vaffanculo in a church. You should know that, dios.
I mean...you're God.
posted by Baby_Balrog at 8:56 AM on March 30, 2006
I mean...you're God.
posted by Baby_Balrog at 8:56 AM on March 30, 2006
Ah, the Boston Herald's last gasping attempts at staying relevant.
posted by Firas at 8:57 AM on March 30, 2006
posted by Firas at 8:57 AM on March 30, 2006
Even I don't care about this.
posted by Optimus Chyme at 8:59 AM on March 30, 2006
posted by Optimus Chyme at 8:59 AM on March 30, 2006
Choosing between the Herald and the Globe is pretty much like choosing between a 4-year-old Mars bar and a steak that's been dropped in a public toilet.
posted by rxrfrx at 8:59 AM on March 30, 2006
posted by rxrfrx at 8:59 AM on March 30, 2006
That's right, Dios, "vaffanculo" translates as "I couldn't care less, count me out," just as "schmuck" is Yiddish for "less-than-brilliant person."
posted by digaman at 9:00 AM on March 30, 2006
posted by digaman at 9:00 AM on March 30, 2006
"-culo" must be the "-out" root in Sicilian, since things come out of the culo.
posted by digaman at 9:01 AM on March 30, 2006
posted by digaman at 9:01 AM on March 30, 2006
I'm of Italian descent. I'm quite familiar with the hand flip under the chin gesture meaning "va' fa' un culo!" (literally an invitation for someone to perform an impossible sexual act with their own person). There's no other intent associated with the gesture than to be patently obscene and offensive. There's no ambiguity or milder version in the gesture like the English verbal distinction between a male genital organ and a male chicken.
End of story. Any apologist blather you hear will be the usual double-plus-good pure horse shit where words and gestures don't mean what they usually mean, like the artificial distinction between levees "overtopping" and "breaching".
Let the spin begin.
posted by Reverend Mykeru at 9:03 AM on March 30, 2006
End of story. Any apologist blather you hear will be the usual double-plus-good pure horse shit where words and gestures don't mean what they usually mean, like the artificial distinction between levees "overtopping" and "breaching".
Let the spin begin.
posted by Reverend Mykeru at 9:03 AM on March 30, 2006
This is a non-issue.
posted by NationalKato at 8:52 AM PST on March 30 [!]
When compared to?
posted by rough ashlar at 9:07 AM on March 30, 2006
posted by NationalKato at 8:52 AM PST on March 30 [!]
When compared to?
posted by rough ashlar at 9:07 AM on March 30, 2006
Of course, Reverend. I actually laughed when I heard about Scalia's gesture -- I'm no prude, obviously -- but his bullshit response posted by Dios above is truly pathetic and dishonest to boot. Are there any conservatives left who care about telling the truth?
posted by digaman at 9:07 AM on March 30, 2006
posted by digaman at 9:07 AM on March 30, 2006
Are there any conservatives left who care about telling the truth?
posted by sonofsamiam at 9:09 AM on March 30, 2006
posted by sonofsamiam at 9:09 AM on March 30, 2006
This seems like one of those occasions where public figures, instead of backpedaling a bit and softening something inappropriate they've said, decide to pretend that the thing never happened in the first place. I think that if Scalia had, instead of writing that letter, said "I was joking around and people are trying to make more of this than there is," that would be the end of the story. Instead, he forced people to choose between "Scalia made a totally unobjectionable gesture and the reporters are lying" and "Scalia made a rude gesture and then lied about it."
posted by rxrfrx at 9:10 AM on March 30, 2006
posted by rxrfrx at 9:10 AM on March 30, 2006
There's no other intent associated with the gesture
No other interpretation? Ahh, the Mefi Squad sure is good about being definitive on every single topic known to man, no matter how obscure.
Let me get this straight: so is Scalia lying by making up the explanation that he claims is in Luigi Brazini's book The Italians? Or is Brazini just wrong about another possible interpretation?
posted by dios at 9:13 AM on March 30, 2006
No other interpretation? Ahh, the Mefi Squad sure is good about being definitive on every single topic known to man, no matter how obscure.
Let me get this straight: so is Scalia lying by making up the explanation that he claims is in Luigi Brazini's book The Italians? Or is Brazini just wrong about another possible interpretation?
posted by dios at 9:13 AM on March 30, 2006
I mean, this man claims that "vaffanculo" is not obscene, after equating gay marriage with "bigamy, adult incest, prostitution, masturbation, adultery, fornication, [and] bestiality."
Vaffanculo, baby.
posted by digaman at 9:14 AM on March 30, 2006
Vaffanculo, baby.
posted by digaman at 9:14 AM on March 30, 2006
"vaffanculo" means, simple and plain, literally: "go get fucked in the ass"
no matter how hard Scalia and his MeFi servants try to spin this, "vaffanculo" is certainly a cuss word.
and, Jesus Christ, dios is already back. timeouts aren't what they used to be.
posted by matteo at 9:14 AM on March 30, 2006
no matter how hard Scalia and his MeFi servants try to spin this, "vaffanculo" is certainly a cuss word.
and, Jesus Christ, dios is already back. timeouts aren't what they used to be.
posted by matteo at 9:14 AM on March 30, 2006
Scalia is being willfully misleading with that bowdlerized interpretation, dios, as any Sicilian will tell you.
posted by digaman at 9:16 AM on March 30, 2006
posted by digaman at 9:16 AM on March 30, 2006
Bush flashes the infamous bird to the camera, Cheney belts out a "fuck yourself", Scalia does same in a church. See, they're just regular guys, like you and me - only difference is that we might do this to people we don't give a rat's ass about, while these titans of politics do it 'cause...
Ah shit.
posted by dbiedny at 9:19 AM on March 30, 2006
Ah shit.
posted by dbiedny at 9:19 AM on March 30, 2006
“The judge paused for a second, then looked directly into my lens and said, ‘To my critics, I say, ‘Vaffanculo,’ ” punctuating the comment by flicking his right hand out from under his chin, Smith said.
The Italian phrase means “(expletive) you.”
Yesterday, Herald reporter Laurel J. Sweet agreed with Smith’s account, but said she did not hear Scalia utter the obscenity.
The word was not in the original story. Scalia denies it. The reporter doesn't recall it. It is an accusation brought up in a rebuttal story to strengthen the newspaper's point.
So what do we have? We have a gesture, which all three sides agree upon. An explanation of the gesture, which appears to have multiple explanations. And the photographer saying that the Jurist said an Italian obscenity, which the other parties involved do not agree was said.
That apparently in enough for some here to decide that a respected jurist is lying.
And does anyone want to actually argue this whole issue isn't something that is being put forth based on preconceived biases against the man?
posted by dios at 9:21 AM on March 30, 2006
The Italian phrase means “(expletive) you.”
Yesterday, Herald reporter Laurel J. Sweet agreed with Smith’s account, but said she did not hear Scalia utter the obscenity.
The word was not in the original story. Scalia denies it. The reporter doesn't recall it. It is an accusation brought up in a rebuttal story to strengthen the newspaper's point.
So what do we have? We have a gesture, which all three sides agree upon. An explanation of the gesture, which appears to have multiple explanations. And the photographer saying that the Jurist said an Italian obscenity, which the other parties involved do not agree was said.
That apparently in enough for some here to decide that a respected jurist is lying.
And does anyone want to actually argue this whole issue isn't something that is being put forth based on preconceived biases against the man?
posted by dios at 9:21 AM on March 30, 2006
I remember when we were at the town hall in Greenwich, CT getting our marriage license. My wife grew up there, her parents still live there, but she hasn't lived there since high school. Anyway, she was talking with the clerk about how the shops around there (not far from 'The Avenue') had gotten much schmancier since she lived there, and how she didn't feel comfortable going into some shop or another wearing her jeans and t-shirt. The clerk made that under-the-chin gesture to indicate how little regard she thought my wife should have for the sensibilities of the shopkeepers. It was priceless.
posted by sohcahtoa at 9:23 AM on March 30, 2006
posted by sohcahtoa at 9:23 AM on March 30, 2006
This is a non-issue.
posted by NationalKato at 8:52 AM PST on March 30 [!]
When compared to?
posted by rough ashlar at 12:07 PM EST on March 30 [!]
Are you serious? A rude gesture, compared to all the other shit these pricks are doing in the world, is really a minor, non-issue to me. When you add fuel to the media's fascination with a hand gesture, instead of putting your collective energies behind the real issues, I don't see the benefit. But then again, I haven't seen much real activism from the non-conservative masses in quite some time.
posted by NationalKato at 9:23 AM on March 30, 2006
posted by NationalKato at 8:52 AM PST on March 30 [!]
When compared to?
posted by rough ashlar at 12:07 PM EST on March 30 [!]
Are you serious? A rude gesture, compared to all the other shit these pricks are doing in the world, is really a minor, non-issue to me. When you add fuel to the media's fascination with a hand gesture, instead of putting your collective energies behind the real issues, I don't see the benefit. But then again, I haven't seen much real activism from the non-conservative masses in quite some time.
posted by NationalKato at 9:23 AM on March 30, 2006
Yeah, I think discussions about the gesture are a weird discussion to have. Does where it lies on the spectrum between 'I don't care' and 'Go fuck yourself' really matter in response to a dumb question? Obviously not the most stately of responses, and it's something I'd hope he has an answer to in an academic sense, but still. Who cares?
posted by Firas at 9:24 AM on March 30, 2006
posted by Firas at 9:24 AM on March 30, 2006
Ie. Discussions about the meaning of the gesture are mostly pointless (although it's pretty much the way Scalia stirred the debate).
posted by Firas at 9:26 AM on March 30, 2006
posted by Firas at 9:26 AM on March 30, 2006
"No other interpretation? Ahh, the Mefi Squad sure is good about being definitive on every single topic known to man, no matter how obscure."
Nothing to do with the Me-Fi squad. And it's not obscure. It's a well-known Italian gesture. It's unambiguous. The fact that people are capable of bullshitting about it doesn't count.
But here's a quick and easy experiment for the Scalia apologists: You can get away with giving someone the finger most of the time. But if you think the hand flip under the chin can be unoffensive, then go to New York's Little Italy (or Tribeca will do), find some goombah and give him the hand flip. Then send us a report from the afterlife on whether whether you think he was offended.
Fair enough?
posted by Reverend Mykeru at 9:28 AM on March 30, 2006
Nothing to do with the Me-Fi squad. And it's not obscure. It's a well-known Italian gesture. It's unambiguous. The fact that people are capable of bullshitting about it doesn't count.
But here's a quick and easy experiment for the Scalia apologists: You can get away with giving someone the finger most of the time. But if you think the hand flip under the chin can be unoffensive, then go to New York's Little Italy (or Tribeca will do), find some goombah and give him the hand flip. Then send us a report from the afterlife on whether whether you think he was offended.
Fair enough?
posted by Reverend Mykeru at 9:28 AM on March 30, 2006
Sorry, Dios, you're on automatic here. "It's all a big gray area... given a huge muddle and conflicting accounts, how can we assume that the conservative is lying..."
I mean, even I admitted that I admired Scalia for having the cojones to make such a gesture right after Mass. But please, girlfrend -- said in sign language (which Scalia doesn't dispute that he did), Italian, or Pig-Latin, vaffanculo does not mean "count me out."
posted by digaman at 9:30 AM on March 30, 2006
I mean, even I admitted that I admired Scalia for having the cojones to make such a gesture right after Mass. But please, girlfrend -- said in sign language (which Scalia doesn't dispute that he did), Italian, or Pig-Latin, vaffanculo does not mean "count me out."
posted by digaman at 9:30 AM on March 30, 2006
* flips hand from under chin*
either interpretation sums up my attitude towards this teapot tempest
posted by pyramid termite at 9:39 AM on March 30, 2006
either interpretation sums up my attitude towards this teapot tempest
posted by pyramid termite at 9:39 AM on March 30, 2006
is really a minor, non-issue to me.
it's certainly less appalling that a war based on fraud, but crude gestures and "vaffanculo" in Church don't mix well with the GOP's "OMFGXtianityRulez" crusade, really. like Cheney's "fuck you" on the Senate floor and his green parka at Auschwitz, Scalia's behavior tells a lot about the man, about their contempt for others (God and the Shoah included)
And does anyone want to actually argue this whole issue isn't something that is being put forth based on preconceived biases against the man?
do you act like that in Church? really? is that appropriate behavior in your church -- crude gestures are OK in God's house? if it is, then that explains a lot re: your behavior here. as Mykeru said, try to imitate Mr. Scalia's geture in front of a bunch of Sicilians. then quote Barzini to them, as you run away
wear comfy shoes, though. and wear a helmet.
posted by matteo at 9:41 AM on March 30, 2006
it's certainly less appalling that a war based on fraud, but crude gestures and "vaffanculo" in Church don't mix well with the GOP's "OMFGXtianityRulez" crusade, really. like Cheney's "fuck you" on the Senate floor and his green parka at Auschwitz, Scalia's behavior tells a lot about the man, about their contempt for others (God and the Shoah included)
And does anyone want to actually argue this whole issue isn't something that is being put forth based on preconceived biases against the man?
do you act like that in Church? really? is that appropriate behavior in your church -- crude gestures are OK in God's house? if it is, then that explains a lot re: your behavior here. as Mykeru said, try to imitate Mr. Scalia's geture in front of a bunch of Sicilians. then quote Barzini to them, as you run away
wear comfy shoes, though. and wear a helmet.
posted by matteo at 9:41 AM on March 30, 2006
Why is is such a big freaking deal for public figures (in the US, anyway) to display the range of emotions that we all share? It drives me crazy that we seem to expect them to actually be cardboard cutouts of people.
If your grandmother can make off-color comments in jest or in the heat of the moment (my grandmother certainly could), why can't other normally-respectable people be allowed those moments, too?
Given that, is it really such a horrible crime that Scalia tried to downplay the incident? Geez, he knows that the media will jump all over it, because it will get viewers and pundits riled up. Just ignore it, and put the outrage cannon away. Then maybe our public figures won't have to lie about their little foibles as much.
posted by dammitjim at 9:41 AM on March 30, 2006
If your grandmother can make off-color comments in jest or in the heat of the moment (my grandmother certainly could), why can't other normally-respectable people be allowed those moments, too?
Given that, is it really such a horrible crime that Scalia tried to downplay the incident? Geez, he knows that the media will jump all over it, because it will get viewers and pundits riled up. Just ignore it, and put the outrage cannon away. Then maybe our public figures won't have to lie about their little foibles as much.
posted by dammitjim at 9:41 AM on March 30, 2006
a respected jurist
[guffaw]
Yeah, and his speech is what is most respected.
Oh, that's right, Bush respects him so that makes him golden!
You're doing a heckuva job Tony!
posted by nofundy at 9:42 AM on March 30, 2006
[guffaw]
Yeah, and his speech is what is most respected.
Oh, that's right, Bush respects him so that makes him golden!
You're doing a heckuva job Tony!
posted by nofundy at 9:42 AM on March 30, 2006
a respected jurist
[guffaw]
Yeah, and his speech is what is most respected.
Oh, that's right, Bush respects him so that makes him golden!
You're doing a heckuva job Tony!
posted by nofundy at 9:45 AM on March 30, 2006
[guffaw]
Yeah, and his speech is what is most respected.
Oh, that's right, Bush respects him so that makes him golden!
You're doing a heckuva job Tony!
posted by nofundy at 9:45 AM on March 30, 2006
A quick check to find a quote of the question that prompted his response yielded the following:
1)...when asked by a Herald reporter how he answers detractors who think he should keep his religious beliefs behind closed doors.
2)...those who question his impartiality when it comes to matters of church and state.
3)...she asked whether his participation in Sunday’s special Mass for lawyers might cause some people to question his impartiality in matters of church and state.
4)...what I said to those people who objected to my taking part in such public religious ceremonies as the Red Mass I had just attended...
5)...when a Herald reporter cornered him after Sunday’s Red Mass...
6)...in response to a question about whether lawyers might question his impartiality in matters of church and state.
7)...Asked whether some Americans doubt his impartiality...
I'm not a Scalia fan, but it pisses me off when the media only keeps half the story straight.
posted by klarck at 9:50 AM on March 30, 2006
1)...when asked by a Herald reporter how he answers detractors who think he should keep his religious beliefs behind closed doors.
2)...those who question his impartiality when it comes to matters of church and state.
3)...she asked whether his participation in Sunday’s special Mass for lawyers might cause some people to question his impartiality in matters of church and state.
4)...what I said to those people who objected to my taking part in such public religious ceremonies as the Red Mass I had just attended...
5)...when a Herald reporter cornered him after Sunday’s Red Mass...
6)...in response to a question about whether lawyers might question his impartiality in matters of church and state.
7)...Asked whether some Americans doubt his impartiality...
I'm not a Scalia fan, but it pisses me off when the media only keeps half the story straight.
posted by klarck at 9:50 AM on March 30, 2006
ericb, that's an American gesture that translates as "I knit thee a pair of woolen booties."
posted by digaman at 9:52 AM on March 30, 2006
posted by digaman at 9:52 AM on March 30, 2006
Yeah, and his speech is what is most respected.
Oh, that's right, Bush respects him so that makes him golden!
You're doing a heckuva job Tony!
posted by nofundy at 12:45 PM EST on March 30 [!]
You're scoffing at the assertion that Scalia is a respected judge with formidable intellect and ability at his disposal? Are you really so blinded by partisan zeal?
posted by Firas at 9:53 AM on March 30, 2006
Last night I got an angry email from the Gov of the Marianas accusing me of using "satanic language" when I called him a scumlord.
posted by nomisxid at 9:55 AM on March 30, 2006
posted by nomisxid at 9:55 AM on March 30, 2006
This is a non-issue.
posted by NationalKato at 8:52 AM PST on March 30 [!]
When compared to?
posted by rough ashlar at 12:07 PM EST on March 30 [!]
Are you serious?
Yes, I was hoping for a list of all the actual issues which are being addressed and handled.
The list of issues NOT being addressed would crash the metafilter server.
posted by rough ashlar at 9:59 AM on March 30, 2006
posted by NationalKato at 8:52 AM PST on March 30 [!]
When compared to?
posted by rough ashlar at 12:07 PM EST on March 30 [!]
Are you serious?
Yes, I was hoping for a list of all the actual issues which are being addressed and handled.
The list of issues NOT being addressed would crash the metafilter server.
posted by rough ashlar at 9:59 AM on March 30, 2006
"And does anyone want to actually argue this whole issue isn't something that is being put forth based on preconceived biases against the man?"
Yeah, actually. I'll argue that the whole 'issue' is being put forth based on entirely well-known and documented biases OF the man. When you act like a dick, you get treated like a dick. Scalia's problem is that he's been acting like a dick to entire segments of the population.
posted by Dipsomaniac at 10:00 AM on March 30, 2006
Yeah, actually. I'll argue that the whole 'issue' is being put forth based on entirely well-known and documented biases OF the man. When you act like a dick, you get treated like a dick. Scalia's problem is that he's been acting like a dick to entire segments of the population.
posted by Dipsomaniac at 10:00 AM on March 30, 2006
rough ashlar, my point remains. You cannot compare a rude hand gesture with all those other issues. I don't see how you can think they are similar.
posted by NationalKato at 10:01 AM on March 30, 2006
posted by NationalKato at 10:01 AM on March 30, 2006
Talking politics: I didn't care about Clinton getting a blowjob. I didn't care about Bush calling a reporter a major league asshole. Why should I care about Scalia making a hand gesture?
posted by Captaintripps at 10:14 AM on March 30, 2006
posted by Captaintripps at 10:14 AM on March 30, 2006
Despite the torrents of exasperation posted here about people freaking out about the hand gesture, I haven't seen anyone do it here. So...
posted by digaman at 10:16 AM on March 30, 2006
posted by digaman at 10:16 AM on March 30, 2006
I don't give much of a crap about this either, though that's largely because I have long since decided this guy's a doucebag and expect little different from him.
Which brings me to the question - exactly why is it so horrid that this is "being put forth based on preconceived biases"? I have a preconceived bias that Barry Bonds is a scumbag juicer and Courtney Love is a drugged out hootchie. So when someone notices Bonds has added a few inches around his bicep, questions him on steroid use and notes his evasive and defensive answers they're.... what?
The big question in this story and my example is only why anyone would be surprised or find it newsworthy. Scalia is an arrogant jerk, fire hot, water wet - other shocking revelations coming up on Inaction News for the Dead Since Birth.
posted by phearlez at 10:18 AM on March 30, 2006
Which brings me to the question - exactly why is it so horrid that this is "being put forth based on preconceived biases"? I have a preconceived bias that Barry Bonds is a scumbag juicer and Courtney Love is a drugged out hootchie. So when someone notices Bonds has added a few inches around his bicep, questions him on steroid use and notes his evasive and defensive answers they're.... what?
The big question in this story and my example is only why anyone would be surprised or find it newsworthy. Scalia is an arrogant jerk, fire hot, water wet - other shocking revelations coming up on Inaction News for the Dead Since Birth.
posted by phearlez at 10:18 AM on March 30, 2006
The issue isn't that he made the gesture. No one sane would give a shit about that. He's a person and people do rude, inappropriate things all the time.
The issue begins when people of his stature say "Go Fuck Yourself" to the public, and then someone says to them "I can not believe you just said that," and then they have the chutzpah to look the person in the eye and say "No, I didn't say that. I said [what I wish I said]."
But the issue is, that we fucking let them. We let them lie like you let a little kid get away with their stupid lies about their imaginary friends.
It's so stupid. It's so stupid. It's so stupid.
and:
digaman: Are there any conservatives left who care about telling the truth?
sonofsiam: Are there any conservatives leftwho care about telling the truth?
My question is, Are there any conservatives left who care abouttelling the truth? I know they don't care about telling the truth. They gave that up as a movement in exchange for Bush's Presidency years ago.
I want to know if they even care that there can be something called the truth.
posted by illovich at 10:18 AM on March 30, 2006
The issue begins when people of his stature say "Go Fuck Yourself" to the public, and then someone says to them "I can not believe you just said that," and then they have the chutzpah to look the person in the eye and say "No, I didn't say that. I said [what I wish I said]."
But the issue is, that we fucking let them. We let them lie like you let a little kid get away with their stupid lies about their imaginary friends.
It's so stupid. It's so stupid. It's so stupid.
and:
digaman: Are there any conservatives left who care about telling the truth?
sonofsiam: Are there any conservatives left
My question is, Are there any conservatives left who care about
I want to know if they even care that there can be something called the truth.
posted by illovich at 10:18 AM on March 30, 2006
Hey Dios, here's what I'd like you to do. You know that Sbarro's in downtown dallas, with the nice italian guys behind the counter? Walk in, say "vaffanculo ", give'em the gesture, and let us know what happens.
posted by 2sheets at 10:31 AM on March 30, 2006
posted by 2sheets at 10:31 AM on March 30, 2006
According to the story he "flicked his hand out from under his chin," which looks like what he's doing in the picture. That's not the same as waving extended fingers slowly back and forth under one's chin, which is the gesture described by Scalia's little book (and doesn't look like the picture).
Scalia: what a douchebag. By which I mean "I care little for this chap."
posted by fleacircus at 10:34 AM on March 30, 2006
Scalia: what a douchebag. By which I mean "I care little for this chap."
posted by fleacircus at 10:34 AM on March 30, 2006
I want to know if they even care that there can be something called the truth.
The way I look at it, anyone can detect the flaw in a circular argument if the total number of steps in the loop is small.
But what do you do if a whole circular domain of discourse arises on a large, transpersonal scale? If you are caught up in it, if you identify with the symbols that compose it, you can't even see the error.
You have been swept up in a massive disconnect and literally cannot understand why people do not buy your reasoning.
posted by sonofsamiam at 10:38 AM on March 30, 2006
The way I look at it, anyone can detect the flaw in a circular argument if the total number of steps in the loop is small.
But what do you do if a whole circular domain of discourse arises on a large, transpersonal scale? If you are caught up in it, if you identify with the symbols that compose it, you can't even see the error.
You have been swept up in a massive disconnect and literally cannot understand why people do not buy your reasoning.
posted by sonofsamiam at 10:38 AM on March 30, 2006
Why is is such a big freaking deal for public figures (in the US, anyway) to display the range of emotions that we all share?
The same reason it's a big deal for any adult in a position of authority to act out on their immediate impulses: it demonstrates a lack of restraint, which calls into question his ability to act rationally instead of emotionally. The CEO of your company may notice that a new employee has a very attractive figure, for example, but he is expected to restrain himself from yelling, "Jesus, what a set of knockers on that chick!"at least until he is in private.
The whole point of being a judge is that one is supposed to examine cases logically and rationally, not emotionally. We don't want a judge who will hear two minutes of an opening argument, lose his temper, and then yell, "Throw this man in jail for contempt!"
Here we have a judge on the nation's highest court who is asked a relevant if impertinent question by a reporter. Instead of answering the question or at least ducking it politely, the judge takes it personally and lashes out at the reporter. When the reporter reports (i.e., does her job), the judge has a second opportunity to behave like a judge, i.e., judiciously. Does he write, "The question caught me off-guard and I attempted to make a joke that obviously fell flat. In retrospect, the gesture was not appropriate, particularly on the steps of a church, and I apologize for giving offense?"
Well, no. Instead, he calls the reporter names and then crafts an elaborate defense of his actions based on a selective quotation. Basically, then, a Justice of the Supreme Court got into a flamewar.
One isolated instance of such behavior would probably go unnoted. But Scalia has a history of petulance and downright thuggishness, so this incident simply tends to confirm an already present perception.
Being polite and apologizing for one's own part in bad behavior is a sign of maturity, not weakness. Unless, of course, you're a bully and you know what you did was inexcusable, in which case you get defensive. Which did Scalia do?
posted by La Cieca at 10:53 AM on March 30, 2006
The same reason it's a big deal for any adult in a position of authority to act out on their immediate impulses: it demonstrates a lack of restraint, which calls into question his ability to act rationally instead of emotionally. The CEO of your company may notice that a new employee has a very attractive figure, for example, but he is expected to restrain himself from yelling, "Jesus, what a set of knockers on that chick!"at least until he is in private.
The whole point of being a judge is that one is supposed to examine cases logically and rationally, not emotionally. We don't want a judge who will hear two minutes of an opening argument, lose his temper, and then yell, "Throw this man in jail for contempt!"
Here we have a judge on the nation's highest court who is asked a relevant if impertinent question by a reporter. Instead of answering the question or at least ducking it politely, the judge takes it personally and lashes out at the reporter. When the reporter reports (i.e., does her job), the judge has a second opportunity to behave like a judge, i.e., judiciously. Does he write, "The question caught me off-guard and I attempted to make a joke that obviously fell flat. In retrospect, the gesture was not appropriate, particularly on the steps of a church, and I apologize for giving offense?"
Well, no. Instead, he calls the reporter names and then crafts an elaborate defense of his actions based on a selective quotation. Basically, then, a Justice of the Supreme Court got into a flamewar.
One isolated instance of such behavior would probably go unnoted. But Scalia has a history of petulance and downright thuggishness, so this incident simply tends to confirm an already present perception.
Being polite and apologizing for one's own part in bad behavior is a sign of maturity, not weakness. Unless, of course, you're a bully and you know what you did was inexcusable, in which case you get defensive. Which did Scalia do?
posted by La Cieca at 10:53 AM on March 30, 2006
The whole point of being a judge is that one is supposed to examine cases logically and rationally, not emotionally. We don't want a judge who will hear two minutes of an opening argument, lose his temper, and then yell, "Throw this man in jail for contempt!"
Yea, sure. As if there's even the slightest bit of correlation there. Seriously, what is wrong with you people? And this thread is a perfect example of how, if you don't agree with the liberal majority, Metafilter just can't handle it... it's just too hard.
posted by Witty at 11:04 AM on March 30, 2006
Yea, sure. As if there's even the slightest bit of correlation there. Seriously, what is wrong with you people? And this thread is a perfect example of how, if you don't agree with the liberal majority, Metafilter just can't handle it... it's just too hard.
posted by Witty at 11:04 AM on March 30, 2006
Thank you, La Cieca!
posted by BobFrapples at 11:17 AM on March 30, 2006
posted by BobFrapples at 11:17 AM on March 30, 2006
No doubt there are unfair stereotypes about Italians, and especially Sicialians. But I doubt the existence of a "moderate" hand gesture in the Sicilian idiom.
posted by bardic at 11:20 AM on March 30, 2006
posted by bardic at 11:20 AM on March 30, 2006
I'm surprised that no one has yet pointed out that Antonin Scalia is an anagram for is an anal tonic.
posted by mr_crash_davis at 11:21 AM on March 30, 2006
posted by mr_crash_davis at 11:21 AM on March 30, 2006
Could be worse; he could have humped a meter maid.
posted by monju_bosatsu at 11:31 AM on March 30, 2006
posted by monju_bosatsu at 11:31 AM on March 30, 2006
Seriously, what is wrong with you people?
OK, I'll start: my eyesight isn't what it used to be.
Who's next?
posted by Kirth Gerson at 11:32 AM on March 30, 2006
OK, I'll start: my eyesight isn't what it used to be.
Who's next?
posted by Kirth Gerson at 11:32 AM on March 30, 2006
When do we get to kinder, gentler or just plain old, more polite again?
I had an Italian guy tell me that he'd kick my ass if I said it to him twice. Its not a gentle curse and Scalia is being disingenuous in his explanation (funny how it comes from Intellectually Dishonest for the Sake of Argument Dios).
On preview: You beat me to it again, crash.
posted by fenriq at 11:34 AM on March 30, 2006
I had an Italian guy tell me that he'd kick my ass if I said it to him twice. Its not a gentle curse and Scalia is being disingenuous in his explanation (funny how it comes from Intellectually Dishonest for the Sake of Argument Dios).
On preview: You beat me to it again, crash.
posted by fenriq at 11:34 AM on March 30, 2006
witty: I thought you left?
dios: wrong, as usual.
La Cieca hit the nail on the head. Anyone arguing after this statement will just make themselves look foolish.
posted by Ynoxas at 11:36 AM on March 30, 2006
dios: wrong, as usual.
La Cieca hit the nail on the head. Anyone arguing after this statement will just make themselves look foolish.
posted by Ynoxas at 11:36 AM on March 30, 2006
Anyone arguing after this statement will just make themselves look foolish.
Not really... only those folks who adamently condemn Scalia and forget how the "blew off" the Clinton/Monica scandal with a so what? Those are the ones that certainly look foolish.
posted by Witty at 11:44 AM on March 30, 2006
Not really... only those folks who adamently condemn Scalia and forget how the "blew off" the Clinton/Monica scandal with a so what? Those are the ones that certainly look foolish.
posted by Witty at 11:44 AM on March 30, 2006
Seriously, what is wrong with you people?
Well, sometimes I get them menstrual cramps real hard. Also, my lumbago's been acting up, and occasionally I get a touch of the rheumatiz.
I used to date an first-generation Italian-American woman. Instead of "vaffanculo," her mom would say, "va fa Napoli," which means "go to Naples."
posted by kirkaracha at 11:48 AM on March 30, 2006
Vaffanculo! Definition: Fuck you! (literally, go and take it in your ass)
posted by stenseng at 11:56 AM on March 30, 2006
posted by stenseng at 11:56 AM on March 30, 2006
(Of all people, it's funny to see tough-guy Scalia making an appeal to, for lack of a better phrase, political correctness in order to cover his tracks. E.g., "If you interpret my gesture as offensive than you are demeaning Italian culture and heritage," or something like that.
There won't be any direct fallout from this, but I have a feeling that picture will be posted plenty of times here.)
posted by bardic at 12:04 PM on March 30, 2006
There won't be any direct fallout from this, but I have a feeling that picture will be posted plenty of times here.)
posted by bardic at 12:04 PM on March 30, 2006
Me:
"But here's a quick and easy experiment for the Scalia apologists: You can get away with giving someone the finger most of the time. But if you think the hand flip under the chin can be unoffensive, then go to New York's Little Italy (or Tribeca will do), find some goombah and give him the hand flip. Then send us a report from the afterlife on whether whether you think he was offended."
2sheets:
"Hey Dios, here's what I'd like you to do. You know that Sbarro's in downtown dallas, with the nice italian guys behind the counter? Walk in, say "vaffanculo ", give'em the gesture, and let us know what happens."
For some odd reason, none of the ""va fa en culu' is just Wop for 'have a nice day', so what's the big deal?" crowd are falling over themselves to engage in a little put-your-ass-where-your-talking-points-are experiment. I can't imagine why.
Still, if someone should follow through, please bring a video camera too. Preferably held by someone else, because video that ends with confusing blurry shots of the sky and then the sidewalk are always a let down.
posted by Reverend Mykeru at 12:09 PM on March 30, 2006
"But here's a quick and easy experiment for the Scalia apologists: You can get away with giving someone the finger most of the time. But if you think the hand flip under the chin can be unoffensive, then go to New York's Little Italy (or Tribeca will do), find some goombah and give him the hand flip. Then send us a report from the afterlife on whether whether you think he was offended."
2sheets:
"Hey Dios, here's what I'd like you to do. You know that Sbarro's in downtown dallas, with the nice italian guys behind the counter? Walk in, say "vaffanculo ", give'em the gesture, and let us know what happens."
For some odd reason, none of the ""va fa en culu' is just Wop for 'have a nice day', so what's the big deal?" crowd are falling over themselves to engage in a little put-your-ass-where-your-talking-points-are experiment. I can't imagine why.
Still, if someone should follow through, please bring a video camera too. Preferably held by someone else, because video that ends with confusing blurry shots of the sky and then the sidewalk are always a let down.
posted by Reverend Mykeru at 12:09 PM on March 30, 2006
The cameraman should then ask, "Seriously, what is wrong with you?"
posted by Kirth Gerson at 12:19 PM on March 30, 2006
posted by Kirth Gerson at 12:19 PM on March 30, 2006
I somehow doubt the Sbarro's in Dallas is staffed by Italian people.
posted by Saucy Intruder at 12:37 PM on March 30, 2006
posted by Saucy Intruder at 12:37 PM on March 30, 2006
Antonin Scalia is an anagram for is an anal tonic
That's right up there with Spreading Santorum.
posted by ericb at 12:59 PM on March 30, 2006
That's right up there with Spreading Santorum.
posted by ericb at 12:59 PM on March 30, 2006
Say that to some of my friends back in Jersey (they are not wiseguys, just Italian- and Sicilian-Americans) - or even just do that hand gesture - and you're gonna be very, very sorry indeed. I wouldn't recommend it.
Temper, temper, your Honor...
posted by zoogleplex at 1:23 PM on March 30, 2006
Temper, temper, your Honor...
posted by zoogleplex at 1:23 PM on March 30, 2006
Just imagine what the right would be saying if Ginsburg said "Gai cocken affen yom!" right outside a synagogue.
posted by amberglow at 3:07 PM on March 30, 2006
posted by amberglow at 3:07 PM on March 30, 2006
maybe he's tired of being the Cindy Birdsong of the Supremes and wants to leave? (or then again, it could just be a brain tumor) ; >
posted by amberglow at 3:09 PM on March 30, 2006
posted by amberglow at 3:09 PM on March 30, 2006
I somehow doubt the Sbarro's in Dallas is staffed by Italian people.
posted by Saucy Intruder at 2:37 PM CST on March 30 [!]
Somehow I doubt the Sbarro's in....anywhere.... is staffed by Italian people.
posted by cellphone at 4:19 PM on March 30, 2006
posted by Saucy Intruder at 2:37 PM CST on March 30 [!]
Somehow I doubt the Sbarro's in....anywhere.... is staffed by Italian people.
posted by cellphone at 4:19 PM on March 30, 2006
This is not a non-issue: it serves to remind us all that anti-Italian-American and anti-Catholic sentiment is alive and well in America.
As does this thread. Congratulations all.
posted by ikkyu2 at 6:30 PM on March 30, 2006
As does this thread. Congratulations all.
posted by ikkyu2 at 6:30 PM on March 30, 2006
This is not a non-issue: it serves to remind us all that anti-Italian-American and anti-Catholic sentiment is alive and well in America.
Oh give me a break. I'm Catholic and married to an Italian-American. If I did what he did in front of my mother-in-law I'd get smacked. The judge is doing just fine on his own giving Italians and Catholics a bad name.
posted by jalexei at 7:22 PM on March 30, 2006
Oh give me a break. I'm Catholic and married to an Italian-American. If I did what he did in front of my mother-in-law I'd get smacked. The judge is doing just fine on his own giving Italians and Catholics a bad name.
posted by jalexei at 7:22 PM on March 30, 2006
The judge is doing just fine on his own giving Italians and Catholics a bad name.
No, he isn't. His actions don't reflect on me just because both our names end with a vowel.
If you don't like what he's doing, consider criticizing him or his actions, instead of tarring him, me, yourself, your wife, and other people with the same brush.
Thank you, however, for making my point again for me. You make me look insightful.
posted by ikkyu2 at 7:48 PM on March 30, 2006
No, he isn't. His actions don't reflect on me just because both our names end with a vowel.
If you don't like what he's doing, consider criticizing him or his actions, instead of tarring him, me, yourself, your wife, and other people with the same brush.
Thank you, however, for making my point again for me. You make me look insightful.
posted by ikkyu2 at 7:48 PM on March 30, 2006
I work for an Italian-American. So I am really getting a kick out of most of these replies. Some of you guys are very good at making it sound like you know what you are talking about.
But trust me.... You don't.
I think you just want to make yourself sound smart, when in reality you don't know what you are talking about. This is how bad info gets passed around. If you don't know about the topic....Don't make yourself sound like you do.
Cuz some non-Italian-Americans will believe anything they read.
posted by dirigibleman at 9:04 PM on March 30, 2006 [1 favorite]
But trust me.... You don't.
I think you just want to make yourself sound smart, when in reality you don't know what you are talking about. This is how bad info gets passed around. If you don't know about the topic....Don't make yourself sound like you do.
Cuz some non-Italian-Americans will believe anything they read.
posted by dirigibleman at 9:04 PM on March 30, 2006 [1 favorite]
I feel bad. I have Italian in my heritage, but I have no idea about the hand flap gesture.
posted by bugmuncher at 10:20 PM on March 30, 2006
posted by bugmuncher at 10:20 PM on March 30, 2006
No, he isn't. His actions don't reflect on me just because both our names end with a vowel.
posted by ikkyu2
That looks more like a numeral. Just sayin'.
posted by Kirth Gerson at 3:29 AM on March 31, 2006
posted by ikkyu2
That looks more like a numeral. Just sayin'.
posted by Kirth Gerson at 3:29 AM on March 31, 2006
I work for an Italian-American. So I am really getting a kick out of most of these replies. Some of you guys are very good at making it sound like you know what you are talking about.
But trust me.... You don't.
As I said before, I don't really care about this issue. But this comment is condescending as hell - so please, enlighten us.
posted by Optimus Chyme at 6:25 AM on March 31, 2006
But trust me.... You don't.
As I said before, I don't really care about this issue. But this comment is condescending as hell - so please, enlighten us.
posted by Optimus Chyme at 6:25 AM on March 31, 2006
I work for an Italian-American. So I am really getting a kick out of most of these replies. Some of you guys are very good at making it sound like you know what you are talking about. But trust me.... You don't. - dirigibleman
And you, who works for and Italian-American know better than say... matteo who actually lives in Italy?
Or maybe that's not who you were talking about.
You speak with such authority! Perhaps you could help us all understand so that the non-Italian-Americans among us (such as yourself) could know what the truth and what the lies in this thread are? If you're so concerned about mis-information please set the record straight.
posted by raedyn at 6:58 AM on March 31, 2006
And you, who works for and Italian-American know better than say... matteo who actually lives in Italy?
Or maybe that's not who you were talking about.
You speak with such authority! Perhaps you could help us all understand so that the non-Italian-Americans among us (such as yourself) could know what the truth and what the lies in this thread are? If you're so concerned about mis-information please set the record straight.
posted by raedyn at 6:58 AM on March 31, 2006
President Bush's serious political opponents must go apeshit with rage every time the media and the collective consciousness of the American public are focused on unimportant nonsense like this.
posted by DWRoelands at 7:07 AM on March 31, 2006
posted by DWRoelands at 7:07 AM on March 31, 2006
Who are these serious opponents of which you write?
posted by Kirth Gerson at 7:20 AM on March 31, 2006
posted by Kirth Gerson at 7:20 AM on March 31, 2006
Uh, I guess not too many people know about that fark cliche. It was a joke, in response to ikkyu2's rather vague accusations of racism.
posted by dirigibleman at 8:13 AM on March 31, 2006
posted by dirigibleman at 8:13 AM on March 31, 2006
Yes, he's flipping them off. I've got four Italian-born-in-Italy grandparents and two born and bred in South Philly parents. If I did this they would have smacked the shit out of me.
posted by fixedgear at 8:37 AM on March 31, 2006
posted by fixedgear at 8:37 AM on March 31, 2006
I'm keen to see how dirigibleman's second hand information will enlighten all of us, especially the Italians and 2nd-3rd generation immigrants who have spoken with some experience on the matter.
But please, by all means, let us know your expertise garnered by working for an italian-american.
posted by Ynoxas at 9:44 AM on March 31, 2006
But please, by all means, let us know your expertise garnered by working for an italian-american.
posted by Ynoxas at 9:44 AM on March 31, 2006
I read even less Fark than raedyn. In fact, merely linking to Fark apparently makes a post invisible to me.
I honestly didn't even see your response dirigibleman. Apologies.
posted by Ynoxas at 1:35 PM on March 31, 2006
I honestly didn't even see your response dirigibleman. Apologies.
posted by Ynoxas at 1:35 PM on March 31, 2006
In fact, merely linking to [a post mentioning] Fark apparently makes a post invisible to me.
*sigh*
Been a long day. TGIF.
posted by Ynoxas at 1:43 PM on March 31, 2006
*sigh*
Been a long day. TGIF.
posted by Ynoxas at 1:43 PM on March 31, 2006
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posted by raedyn at 8:43 AM on March 30, 2006