Texans Reject Bush
April 29, 2006 12:24 AM Subscribe
Texans reject Bush
Not since the Portland Trailblazers selected Sam Bowie over Michael Jordan has such a draft day blunder occurred. In today's 2006 NFL Draft, the Houston Texans are set to make NC State defensive end Mario Williams - not USC running back Reggie Bush - the top overall pick. Yes, we're talking about this Reggie Bush (YouTube).
Texans fans, prepare for 10 more seasons like the one you just had.
Not since the Portland Trailblazers selected Sam Bowie over Michael Jordan has such a draft day blunder occurred. In today's 2006 NFL Draft, the Houston Texans are set to make NC State defensive end Mario Williams - not USC running back Reggie Bush - the top overall pick. Yes, we're talking about this Reggie Bush (YouTube).
Texans fans, prepare for 10 more seasons like the one you just had.
Huh. And here I thought Reggie Bush was a no-brainer. Guess that's why NFL execs get paid the big bucks to be ... well paid but just as clueless as the average Joe or Jane as to who's going to be a star.
posted by donpedro at 12:46 AM on April 29, 2006
posted by donpedro at 12:46 AM on April 29, 2006
Is this something I'd have to....hell...I don't even know where to start.
posted by sourwookie at 12:53 AM on April 29, 2006
posted by sourwookie at 12:53 AM on April 29, 2006
The Texans all along said they didn't want to get into protracted negotiations with anyone, and the Bush camp has been making these noises for a couple of weeks now.
But a defensive lineman doesn't even begin to solve the Texans' real problem: They have an offensive line that makes the Maginot line look good.
posted by dw at 1:03 AM on April 29, 2006
But a defensive lineman doesn't even begin to solve the Texans' real problem: They have an offensive line that makes the Maginot line look good.
posted by dw at 1:03 AM on April 29, 2006
What the fuck? Why is he carrying the ball? Isn't using your hands illegal?
Or they playing some kind of twisted mutant hybrid of Calvinball and Brockian Ultra-Cricket? No... can't be. There's not enough blood and whacking sticks.
posted by loquacious at 1:12 AM on April 29, 2006
Or they playing some kind of twisted mutant hybrid of Calvinball and Brockian Ultra-Cricket? No... can't be. There's not enough blood and whacking sticks.
posted by loquacious at 1:12 AM on April 29, 2006
How is it a blunder? The number of disappointing first-picks outweighs the number of succesful ones in every sports league. I think Bush is talented myself, but it's football man--one knee injury and you'll never hear from him again.
posted by bardic at 1:16 AM on April 29, 2006
posted by bardic at 1:16 AM on April 29, 2006
The Texans aren't taking Reggie because they don't want to pay him. Now what will happen? New Orleans definitely can't pay him. think the Jets will trade up to get Reggie. Playing in NY will bring him more dollars in endorsements than he lost in not being #1 overall.
I still can't believe the Texans are passing him up. I'm sure their fans are pissed. If not just for the butts-in-seats factor, they should be picking Bush. Reggie's the best college player in a generation. They would have won 3 straight championships if he would have gotten the ball on that 4th and 1 (and if the lame-ass refs had replayed Vince Young's "TD" where his knee was down at the 20).
posted by b_thinky at 1:50 AM on April 29, 2006
I still can't believe the Texans are passing him up. I'm sure their fans are pissed. If not just for the butts-in-seats factor, they should be picking Bush. Reggie's the best college player in a generation. They would have won 3 straight championships if he would have gotten the ball on that 4th and 1 (and if the lame-ass refs had replayed Vince Young's "TD" where his knee was down at the 20).
posted by b_thinky at 1:50 AM on April 29, 2006
here are my player analyses:
Reggie Bush = Ladainian Tomlinson + Marshall Faulk (mega-stud)
Vince Young = Akili Smith (mega-dud)
Mario Williams = Courtney Brown (you used your first pick for that guy?)
Leinart = Kerry Collins (good player every other year)
posted by b_thinky at 1:55 AM on April 29, 2006
Reggie Bush = Ladainian Tomlinson + Marshall Faulk (mega-stud)
Vince Young = Akili Smith (mega-dud)
Mario Williams = Courtney Brown (you used your first pick for that guy?)
Leinart = Kerry Collins (good player every other year)
posted by b_thinky at 1:55 AM on April 29, 2006
Huh?
posted by brundlefly at 2:00 AM on April 29, 2006
posted by brundlefly at 2:00 AM on April 29, 2006
well i live 15 minutes away from USC but like to think the texans made a smart move not picking reggie bush, from an organizational standpoint, and that comparing akili smith with vince young (especially at this point in his career) is insulting. i think if anybody is going to tank its leinart.
posted by phaedon at 2:01 AM on April 29, 2006
posted by phaedon at 2:01 AM on April 29, 2006
I have to say the very best thing about YouTube are the excellent compilations of sporting feats. My favorite is the roll of some dude just getting posterized and humiliated over and over and over again.
posted by sachinag at 2:44 AM on April 29, 2006
posted by sachinag at 2:44 AM on April 29, 2006
comparing akili smith with vince young (especially at this point in his career) is insulting.
Well, it wasn't meant as a compliment. VY has all the trademarks of a bust: poor throwing mechanics, poor accuracy, succeeds in a college style offense (he won't be bigger and faster than pro defenses).
Think about it this way: Michael Vick is a good but not elite NFL QB. VY cannot run better than Vick, nor can he throw better. So what makes anyone think he can dominate the NFL? Let's not even mention the fact that his IQ tests show him to be slightly more intelligent than a mentally retarded sloth.
I'm pretty sure he would slide past the first round if not for the guarantees of two teams known for crappy drafts: Arizona and Oakland.
posted by b_thinky at 2:47 AM on April 29, 2006
Well, it wasn't meant as a compliment. VY has all the trademarks of a bust: poor throwing mechanics, poor accuracy, succeeds in a college style offense (he won't be bigger and faster than pro defenses).
Think about it this way: Michael Vick is a good but not elite NFL QB. VY cannot run better than Vick, nor can he throw better. So what makes anyone think he can dominate the NFL? Let's not even mention the fact that his IQ tests show him to be slightly more intelligent than a mentally retarded sloth.
I'm pretty sure he would slide past the first round if not for the guarantees of two teams known for crappy drafts: Arizona and Oakland.
posted by b_thinky at 2:47 AM on April 29, 2006
Not since the Portland Trailblazers selected Sam Bowie over Michael Jordan.
Were great things predicted for MJ at that point? I seem to recall Bowie being a bigger star in college, but memory fades a bit.
My favorite: in 1981, the Saints selected George Rogers over LT. Hard to say if LT would have made a difference in the Saints' overall defensive scheme, but he was arguably THE difference in transforming the Giants from perennial cellar-dwellers to playoff contenders. Although Rogers won the Heisman at South Carolina, I seem to recall his not being particularly well regarded, and LT being ballyhooed as a "franchise player"
posted by psmealey at 3:57 AM on April 29, 2006
Were great things predicted for MJ at that point? I seem to recall Bowie being a bigger star in college, but memory fades a bit.
My favorite: in 1981, the Saints selected George Rogers over LT. Hard to say if LT would have made a difference in the Saints' overall defensive scheme, but he was arguably THE difference in transforming the Giants from perennial cellar-dwellers to playoff contenders. Although Rogers won the Heisman at South Carolina, I seem to recall his not being particularly well regarded, and LT being ballyhooed as a "franchise player"
posted by psmealey at 3:57 AM on April 29, 2006
Perhaps in a few more years the Texans will have their own highlight reel of mind-boggling draft choices.
posted by schoolgirl report at 4:47 AM on April 29, 2006
posted by schoolgirl report at 4:47 AM on April 29, 2006
If everyone was as talented Reggie Bush, the NFL would be worth watching.
posted by Jairus at 5:22 AM on April 29, 2006
posted by Jairus at 5:22 AM on April 29, 2006
Whoa, hey, if we're talking horrible draft-day moves, let's not forget Minnesota here. Go Vikes!
posted by graventy at 6:42 AM on April 29, 2006
posted by graventy at 6:42 AM on April 29, 2006
Also, the whole "they don't want to pay him" argument doesn't really work. Don't draft picks pretty much get paid based on their order? Won't they be paying Mario just as much as they would have to pay Reggie?
posted by graventy at 6:43 AM on April 29, 2006
posted by graventy at 6:43 AM on April 29, 2006
In case anyone was wondering, the last time I checked, ignorance was not "cool."
posted by zhivota at 6:44 AM on April 29, 2006
posted by zhivota at 6:44 AM on April 29, 2006
Vince Young did lead the nation last year in passing efficiency...however I'm still holding out for our own hometown kid at number 3. Pipe dream, yeah, but Jay Cutler needs to stay in Nashville. Any QB who can survive (more like run for his life) 4 years as a starter at Vandy and actually win a few games they weren't supposed to for a change is my kinda guy. Jay's a heck of a QB, and today's his birthday.
Floyd Reese will still pick Young, though, b/c they're obsessed w/ him being the next Steve McNair. Great, when he's not hurt.
posted by rhythim at 7:24 AM on April 29, 2006
Floyd Reese will still pick Young, though, b/c they're obsessed w/ him being the next Steve McNair. Great, when he's not hurt.
posted by rhythim at 7:24 AM on April 29, 2006
graventy - no. There's still negotiation & signing bonuses & length of contract and all the usual crap, and Bush's camp is demanding some outrageous numbers.
Bear in mind people, he may very well be the next Barry Sanders, which means that the Texans just cheated themselves out of as many Superbowl rings as the Detroit Lions won with Barry. Also, it's an old axiom, but "defense wins championships," so, selecting a world-class defensive lineman (especially in an era when the secondary has been crippled by the "no touch or it's pass interference" style rules for coverage) is perhaps not as crazy as you think.
posted by jonson at 7:27 AM on April 29, 2006
Bear in mind people, he may very well be the next Barry Sanders, which means that the Texans just cheated themselves out of as many Superbowl rings as the Detroit Lions won with Barry. Also, it's an old axiom, but "defense wins championships," so, selecting a world-class defensive lineman (especially in an era when the secondary has been crippled by the "no touch or it's pass interference" style rules for coverage) is perhaps not as crazy as you think.
posted by jonson at 7:27 AM on April 29, 2006
Let's not even mention the fact that his IQ tests show him to be slightly more intelligent than a mentally retarded sloth.
Charles Rogers went to the rival school and he was probably the stupidest athlete in a long time. He went to MSU and failed the "am i a human" test and has to sit his freshman year.
He also has talent, but according to reports... he dosen't like the school part of the NFL where you have to sit through team meetings. His speed got him this far, but now he has to learn things like plays and formations.
posted by DougieZero1982 at 7:32 AM on April 29, 2006
Charles Rogers went to the rival school and he was probably the stupidest athlete in a long time. He went to MSU and failed the "am i a human" test and has to sit his freshman year.
He also has talent, but according to reports... he dosen't like the school part of the NFL where you have to sit through team meetings. His speed got him this far, but now he has to learn things like plays and formations.
posted by DougieZero1982 at 7:32 AM on April 29, 2006
I agree regarding the defense first rule. Its actually not that hard to piece together a serviceable offense in the NFL and even easier when the defense is so good they create points and give you a short field.
In a world where Kyle Orton can actually win more than 2-3 games in the NFL as a starting QB, yes, defense first is a good call.
The thing is it does not even seem like this guy was really amazing at defense......
posted by narebuc at 7:33 AM on April 29, 2006
In a world where Kyle Orton can actually win more than 2-3 games in the NFL as a starting QB, yes, defense first is a good call.
The thing is it does not even seem like this guy was really amazing at defense......
posted by narebuc at 7:33 AM on April 29, 2006
Bush should just emigrate to the Ireland and start playing Rugby Union. Much better.
posted by knapah at 7:36 AM on April 29, 2006
posted by knapah at 7:36 AM on April 29, 2006
Yeah, Bush is fast, but his poor decisions will kill him in the NFL (especially if he is as averse to learning as everyone says). Plus, he doesn't seem to stand up to abuse that well.
Anyway, Defense can get you a long way (look at the Bears for the last decade - they were terrible, but managed to win a few on defense) and in the long run, it wins championships.
posted by jmgorman at 7:40 AM on April 29, 2006
Anyway, Defense can get you a long way (look at the Bears for the last decade - they were terrible, but managed to win a few on defense) and in the long run, it wins championships.
posted by jmgorman at 7:40 AM on April 29, 2006
psmealey: Sam Bowie missed 2 full seasons in college playing for Kentucky with shin and ankle injuries.
He missed like 200 games in the first 5 years of his NBA career.
Anyone should have known he was a huge risk.
posted by T.D. Strange at 8:02 AM on April 29, 2006
He missed like 200 games in the first 5 years of his NBA career.
Anyone should have known he was a huge risk.
posted by T.D. Strange at 8:02 AM on April 29, 2006
That would be nice knapah, but he might have trouble understandng Andrew Trimble's accent.
I don't really like NFL football but I think it's a shame they're all apparently bailing on this guy because of his outrageous $$ demands. If he got the same deal Mario Williams got would it be so bad? And I do love the upsets. The guys on ESPN appeared as though their world had ended.
posted by jamesonandwater at 8:12 AM on April 29, 2006
I don't really like NFL football but I think it's a shame they're all apparently bailing on this guy because of his outrageous $$ demands. If he got the same deal Mario Williams got would it be so bad? And I do love the upsets. The guys on ESPN appeared as though their world had ended.
posted by jamesonandwater at 8:12 AM on April 29, 2006
Reggie Bush will be a playmaker and stud. The Texans are idiots for passing up on him.
posted by fenriq at 8:15 AM on April 29, 2006
posted by fenriq at 8:15 AM on April 29, 2006
"Within the past year, the Texans signed running back Domanick Davis to a long-term extension. They also drafted wide receiver Jerome Mathis, the return man who went to the Pro Bowl during his rookie season. The Texans know they have a dependable running back and return man, the two spots Bush fills." - NFL.com News.
Would Reggie Bush even play for the Texans if picked? There are a number of first picks that simply refused to play for the team that initially drafted them, perhaps most prominently John Elway. Moreover, the idea that all first-round picks end up getting paid the same purely based in position is simply wrong. Bush's talent will command a premium over a player like Mario Williams. In any case, what the Texans really need is an offensive line that can provide some pass protection. Without that, it doesn't matter who they draft.
posted by monju_bosatsu at 8:23 AM on April 29, 2006
Would Reggie Bush even play for the Texans if picked? There are a number of first picks that simply refused to play for the team that initially drafted them, perhaps most prominently John Elway. Moreover, the idea that all first-round picks end up getting paid the same purely based in position is simply wrong. Bush's talent will command a premium over a player like Mario Williams. In any case, what the Texans really need is an offensive line that can provide some pass protection. Without that, it doesn't matter who they draft.
posted by monju_bosatsu at 8:23 AM on April 29, 2006
Umm, monju, the NFL has a scale for rookies. Bush could take it or leave it. If he left it, he would have to hold out a year and re-enter the draft.
The new agreement was set up to make the teams look good -- they couldn't scrimp and if the rookie didn't take a fair, market driven offer, he could lose a season. The teams look fine for trying their best and being somewhat fair.
It's why you have MANY FEWER holdouts than in the past.
posted by narebuc at 8:53 AM on April 29, 2006
The new agreement was set up to make the teams look good -- they couldn't scrimp and if the rookie didn't take a fair, market driven offer, he could lose a season. The teams look fine for trying their best and being somewhat fair.
It's why you have MANY FEWER holdouts than in the past.
posted by narebuc at 8:53 AM on April 29, 2006
That high school tape is funny. And sad for the other team. They look like they're standing still.
posted by smackfu at 8:55 AM on April 29, 2006
posted by smackfu at 8:55 AM on April 29, 2006
narebuc, the pay scale is only a semi-rigid de facto pay scale, and effectively only constrains pay in the first year. Reggie Bush will certainly command more dollars over the first five years of his career than will Mario Williams.
posted by monju_bosatsu at 9:17 AM on April 29, 2006
posted by monju_bosatsu at 9:17 AM on April 29, 2006
Reggie Bush = Ladainian Tomlinson + Marshall Faulk (mega-stud)
Not THAT good. He's definitely a Marshall Faulk level talent, which means he's a once-a-decade player and going to be very rich if he's not injured/stupid. But he's not Barry Sanders.
Vince Young = Akili Smith (mega-dud)
I watched both of them in college, and Vince Young has more talent in his big toe than Smith did. Young is faster and bigger and is a more accurate passer. Does it mean he's a starting QB? Maybe not. But guys with his talent don't wash out of the league the way Smith did. If a team can decide what to do with him (vs. the position whiplash Kordell Stewart went through and Michael Vick's pocket-no-scramble-no-pocket-no-West-Coast offense whiplash), he'll succeed.
Mario Williams = Courtney Brown (you used your first pick for that guy?)
Actually, you know what it reminds me of? 1994, when the Bungles took Dan Wilkinson first and the Colts took Marshall Faulk second. Wilkinson, in time, became a Pro Bowler and a pretty good defensive back. Marshall Faulk, though, played in three Super Bowls and led his team in receptions several times.
So, not a bad pick, but clearly a better player available.
Leinart = Kerry Collins (good player every other year)
I don't know what to make of Leinart. He reminds me a lot of Ryan Leaf with his ego, and of Heath Shuler with his knowledge of only one offensive system. He could be a pretty good QB. He could also be a whiny backup for the next ten years.
posted by dw at 9:23 AM on April 29, 2006
Not THAT good. He's definitely a Marshall Faulk level talent, which means he's a once-a-decade player and going to be very rich if he's not injured/stupid. But he's not Barry Sanders.
Vince Young = Akili Smith (mega-dud)
I watched both of them in college, and Vince Young has more talent in his big toe than Smith did. Young is faster and bigger and is a more accurate passer. Does it mean he's a starting QB? Maybe not. But guys with his talent don't wash out of the league the way Smith did. If a team can decide what to do with him (vs. the position whiplash Kordell Stewart went through and Michael Vick's pocket-no-scramble-no-pocket-no-West-Coast offense whiplash), he'll succeed.
Mario Williams = Courtney Brown (you used your first pick for that guy?)
Actually, you know what it reminds me of? 1994, when the Bungles took Dan Wilkinson first and the Colts took Marshall Faulk second. Wilkinson, in time, became a Pro Bowler and a pretty good defensive back. Marshall Faulk, though, played in three Super Bowls and led his team in receptions several times.
So, not a bad pick, but clearly a better player available.
Leinart = Kerry Collins (good player every other year)
I don't know what to make of Leinart. He reminds me a lot of Ryan Leaf with his ego, and of Heath Shuler with his knowledge of only one offensive system. He could be a pretty good QB. He could also be a whiny backup for the next ten years.
posted by dw at 9:23 AM on April 29, 2006
One little bit of suppsed draft-day wisdom is to always take the best player on the board. After all, you can trade him the player within the day.
So, if you're the Texans, and you're sick of pulling fans from the stand to go play offensive line, maybe you should draft Reggie Bush and trade him to another team for a few OLs. Or use him and dangle him as trade bait a year later (injuries willing).
posted by suckerpunch at 9:58 AM on April 29, 2006
So, if you're the Texans, and you're sick of pulling fans from the stand to go play offensive line, maybe you should draft Reggie Bush and trade him to another team for a few OLs. Or use him and dangle him as trade bait a year later (injuries willing).
posted by suckerpunch at 9:58 AM on April 29, 2006
You mean like, some sort of Sports-filter? Hmm...
I sense your sarcasm, but we always talk sports on MeFi. If you don't like it, skip over it.
posted by graventy at 9:59 AM on April 29, 2006
I sense your sarcasm, but we always talk sports on MeFi. If you don't like it, skip over it.
posted by graventy at 9:59 AM on April 29, 2006
Bear in mind people, he may very well be the next Barry Sanders, which means that the Texans just cheated themselves out of as many Superbowl rings as the Detroit Lions won with Barry
Speaking of Barry Sanders and bad draft choices. In 1989 my beloved Green Bay Packers had the 2nd pick overall and they passed on Sanders for Tony Mandarich.
Now THAT'S bad drafting!
posted by Bonzai at 10:39 AM on April 29, 2006
Speaking of Barry Sanders and bad draft choices. In 1989 my beloved Green Bay Packers had the 2nd pick overall and they passed on Sanders for Tony Mandarich.
Now THAT'S bad drafting!
posted by Bonzai at 10:39 AM on April 29, 2006
hard to say if LT would have made a difference in the Saints' overall defensive scheme
I can't help but think that if LT was added to the late Eighties Saints defense-- alongside Rickey Jackson, Vaughn Johnson, Sam Mills, and Pat Swilling-- they would have somehow found a way to play a 2-5 defense and given up about 7 points a game.
posted by Kwantsar at 10:52 AM on April 29, 2006
I can't help but think that if LT was added to the late Eighties Saints defense-- alongside Rickey Jackson, Vaughn Johnson, Sam Mills, and Pat Swilling-- they would have somehow found a way to play a 2-5 defense and given up about 7 points a game.
posted by Kwantsar at 10:52 AM on April 29, 2006
I still can't believe the Texans are passing him up. I'm sure their fans are pissed.
I go to at least one Texansdebacle game a year, but I'm not pissed by this. I thought drafting Bush would have been a fucking horrible move.
They've got a perfectly serviceable RB, one stud WR in Andre Johnson (assuming Carr can stay off his back long enough to get him the ball.) Eric Moulds might be long in the tooth, but you still have to cover him. Sure, we're getting a little sour on Carr down here, but we also see the sack numbers and know it can't be all him. And if his line could make him a fucking hole, he could easily get a couple first downs a game by running for them.
They've got more than enough offensive weapons. They have needs elsewere.
Good call. (Not the one I would have made. I would have traded down.)
Of course, one knee injury in training camp and we're all fools.
posted by Cyrano at 10:56 AM on April 29, 2006
I go to at least one Texans
They've got a perfectly serviceable RB, one stud WR in Andre Johnson (assuming Carr can stay off his back long enough to get him the ball.) Eric Moulds might be long in the tooth, but you still have to cover him. Sure, we're getting a little sour on Carr down here, but we also see the sack numbers and know it can't be all him. And if his line could make him a fucking hole, he could easily get a couple first downs a game by running for them.
They've got more than enough offensive weapons. They have needs elsewere.
Good call. (Not the one I would have made. I would have traded down.)
Of course, one knee injury in training camp and we're all fools.
posted by Cyrano at 10:56 AM on April 29, 2006
As a Longhorn and a Texan season ticket holder - I'm more sick over giving Vince Young to the ex-Oilers (a.k.a Titans) than I am passing over Reggie Bush - which is a colossal mistake in it's own right. Reggie would have been great trade bait for a real OL that could protect Carr, or maybe Vince in a few seasons.
posted by marc1919 at 10:59 AM on April 29, 2006
posted by marc1919 at 10:59 AM on April 29, 2006
Someone should start a MetaFilter for sports.
Better yet, someone should start a metafilter just for you.
posted by srboisvert at 11:03 AM on April 29, 2006
Better yet, someone should start a metafilter just for you.
posted by srboisvert at 11:03 AM on April 29, 2006
this is only funny because how many times this week i had to see bush's obnoxious mugging for the camera acting like the texans had him in the bag. his appearance on conan was pretty funny just because it made him look like a bigger ass.
posted by kendrak at 11:07 AM on April 29, 2006
posted by kendrak at 11:07 AM on April 29, 2006
Let's not pass judgement too quickly. Texans drafted for needs. The RB position is always well stocked in talent every year. The Texans made the best move for their team. One player doesn't make a team.
posted by j-urb at 11:11 AM on April 29, 2006
posted by j-urb at 11:11 AM on April 29, 2006
Let's not even mention the fact that his IQ tests show him to be slightly more intelligent than a mentally retarded sloth.
Do they publish that for all players? Wow...
posted by Chuckles at 11:20 AM on April 29, 2006
Do they publish that for all players? Wow...
posted by Chuckles at 11:20 AM on April 29, 2006
Do they publish that for all players? Wow...
Nope. A lot of it is rumor.
The NFL uses the Wonderlic Personnel Test on all NFL Combine participants. There was controversy this year because Vince Young's Wonderlic was "leaked" and rumored to be a paltry 6. This was denied and supposedly Young's score was in the teens when he retook it.
None of this compares to Dexter Manley's functional illiteracy, of course.
posted by dw at 11:39 AM on April 29, 2006
Nope. A lot of it is rumor.
The NFL uses the Wonderlic Personnel Test on all NFL Combine participants. There was controversy this year because Vince Young's Wonderlic was "leaked" and rumored to be a paltry 6. This was denied and supposedly Young's score was in the teens when he retook it.
None of this compares to Dexter Manley's functional illiteracy, of course.
posted by dw at 11:39 AM on April 29, 2006
the texans' OL actually isn't that bad. football- and stat-heads should check out this analysis: http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/ol.php
posted by lord_wolf at 12:15 PM on April 29, 2006
posted by lord_wolf at 12:15 PM on April 29, 2006
lord_wolf : that's an argument for and against. The stats show the Texans' OL as being good run blockers but absolutely abysmal in pass protection. And that's the thing that everyone's wondering about. I mean, look at David Carr. He's absorbing hits like Ali doing the Rope-a-Dope... except that Ali took hits for seven rounds, and Carr looks like he'll be taking hits for seven seasons.
But, on to more important things : should the Saints keep Reggie, or should they trade him for some defensive players? And who can they draft in the second round? Nick Mangold? This is why I love sports. This stuff never ends.
posted by suckerpunch at 12:36 PM on April 29, 2006
But, on to more important things : should the Saints keep Reggie, or should they trade him for some defensive players? And who can they draft in the second round? Nick Mangold? This is why I love sports. This stuff never ends.
posted by suckerpunch at 12:36 PM on April 29, 2006
Reggie Bush's high school video reminds me of a current high schooler: Noel Devine - youtube.
posted by BackwardsHatClub at 1:33 PM on April 29, 2006
posted by BackwardsHatClub at 1:33 PM on April 29, 2006
Good call. (Not the one I would have made. I would have traded down.)
Kind of makes you wonder why the Texans didn't do that, because there are plenty of other teams that would have loved to grab Bush - New Orleans may wind up trading him, unless Deuce's knee is worse off than advertised...
While this has Courtney Brown written all over it, got to remember the Steelers dynasty began with the selection of Mean Joe Greene in 1969, a far bigger "bonehead" move than this one...
posted by kgasmart at 1:53 PM on April 29, 2006
Kind of makes you wonder why the Texans didn't do that, because there are plenty of other teams that would have loved to grab Bush - New Orleans may wind up trading him, unless Deuce's knee is worse off than advertised...
While this has Courtney Brown written all over it, got to remember the Steelers dynasty began with the selection of Mean Joe Greene in 1969, a far bigger "bonehead" move than this one...
posted by kgasmart at 1:53 PM on April 29, 2006
"Better yet, someone should start a metafilter just for you."
Without derailing too severely, I was lampooning those who want news., politics., video.mefi, etc. So, in other words, right on. Unless you weren't being sarcastic, in which case, fuck you, buddy!
This comment is in small because it is offtopic!
posted by Eideteker at 3:03 PM on April 29, 2006
Without derailing too severely, I was lampooning those who want news., politics., video.mefi, etc. So, in other words, right on. Unless you weren't being sarcastic, in which case, fuck you, buddy!
This comment is in small because it is offtopic!
posted by Eideteker at 3:03 PM on April 29, 2006
Wikipedia on the NFL Combine. I guess that is what pro sports is all about, but it is kind of repulsive:
posted by Chuckles at 3:07 PM on April 29, 2006
Athletes attend by invitation only. Implications of one's performance during the combine can affect perception, draft status, salary and ultimately his career. The draft has popularized the term Workout Warrior, whereby an athlete, based on superior measurables such as size, speed and strength, have increased their "draft stock" despite having a possibly average or subpar college career.You could learn something about measuring ability by studying this stuff..
posted by Chuckles at 3:07 PM on April 29, 2006
A word in defense of Vince Young:
VY has all the trademarks of a bust: poor throwing mechanics,
And yet somehow he always manages to get the ball where it needs to be. In his last public workout, he hit 50 of 55 passes and all the scouts commented on his arm strength and accuracy. 4 of the passes were dropped by UT receivers because they were thrown so hard.
Let's also not forget that he had the highest QB efficiency rating in the nation last year in the regular season. (Higher than Matt Leinart and Jay Cutler, throwing to a crop of receivers with only two upperclassmen.)
Your understanding of 'mechanics' is also pretty shady -- there have been a number of great NFL QBs with unconventional mechanics. The general worry with a sidearm delivery is that the ball will get batted down at the line of scrimmage, which is less of a concern when your QB is almost as tall as Michael Jordan. On the flip side, it gives him an extremely fast delivery. As far as I can remember, Vince Young has almost never been intercepted at the line of scrimmage.
poor accuracy,
30/40 in the Rose Bowl? Huh?
succeeds in a college style offense (he won't be bigger and faster than pro defenses).
The dude is 6'5", 240 pounds, and runs a legit 4.4. He also cuts almost as well as Reggie Bush. Do you have any idea what that means?
VY cannot run better than Vick, nor can he throw better.
Nonsense. Vince's numbers in college absolutely blow Vick's out of the water, even in their comparable sophomore years (Vick's last year in college). Last year Vince Young became the first 3,000-yard passer and 1,000-yard rusher in NCAA history, although 2,500/1,000 would have been enough for the record books.
So what makes anyone think he can dominate the NFL?
Hmm. Because he's bigger, faster, and makes better decisions than anyone else on the field, in addition to being one of the best gameday leaders college football's ever seen?
Let's not even mention the fact that his IQ tests show him to be slightly more intelligent than a mentally retarded sloth.
Well, that's just insulting, not to mention downright stupid. I assume you're talking about the Wonderlic test, which isn't anything like an IQ test, and not even remotely relevant to football. Young's score on that test (16, reportedly) isn't stellar, but better than some hall of fame QBs. But regardless, his on-field decisionmaking is excellent. The last play of the Rose Bowl is a good example, where he made all his reads and then an excellent cut to the right, being patient enough to let the play develop despite having the national championship literally on the line. There have been many other examples throughout his college career.
But hey, whatever. You're just speculating (albeit on pretty obviously shoddy experience and evidence), as am I. Lots of people said that Young would be a WR in college, then in the NFL, and that he didn't deserve the Heisman before making Reggie Bush look like a chump on actual gameday, and he's proved them all wrong so far. I'm fairly confident that he'll do so again.
This site is a collection of UT highlights, and this is the section devoted to Vince. Like any player that could roll off 5 or 6 highlight-reel-worthy clips a game, you really have to see to believe, I think.
posted by spiderwire at 3:13 PM on April 29, 2006
VY has all the trademarks of a bust: poor throwing mechanics,
And yet somehow he always manages to get the ball where it needs to be. In his last public workout, he hit 50 of 55 passes and all the scouts commented on his arm strength and accuracy. 4 of the passes were dropped by UT receivers because they were thrown so hard.
Let's also not forget that he had the highest QB efficiency rating in the nation last year in the regular season. (Higher than Matt Leinart and Jay Cutler, throwing to a crop of receivers with only two upperclassmen.)
Your understanding of 'mechanics' is also pretty shady -- there have been a number of great NFL QBs with unconventional mechanics. The general worry with a sidearm delivery is that the ball will get batted down at the line of scrimmage, which is less of a concern when your QB is almost as tall as Michael Jordan. On the flip side, it gives him an extremely fast delivery. As far as I can remember, Vince Young has almost never been intercepted at the line of scrimmage.
poor accuracy,
30/40 in the Rose Bowl? Huh?
succeeds in a college style offense (he won't be bigger and faster than pro defenses).
The dude is 6'5", 240 pounds, and runs a legit 4.4. He also cuts almost as well as Reggie Bush. Do you have any idea what that means?
VY cannot run better than Vick, nor can he throw better.
Nonsense. Vince's numbers in college absolutely blow Vick's out of the water, even in their comparable sophomore years (Vick's last year in college). Last year Vince Young became the first 3,000-yard passer and 1,000-yard rusher in NCAA history, although 2,500/1,000 would have been enough for the record books.
So what makes anyone think he can dominate the NFL?
Hmm. Because he's bigger, faster, and makes better decisions than anyone else on the field, in addition to being one of the best gameday leaders college football's ever seen?
Let's not even mention the fact that his IQ tests show him to be slightly more intelligent than a mentally retarded sloth.
Well, that's just insulting, not to mention downright stupid. I assume you're talking about the Wonderlic test, which isn't anything like an IQ test, and not even remotely relevant to football. Young's score on that test (16, reportedly) isn't stellar, but better than some hall of fame QBs. But regardless, his on-field decisionmaking is excellent. The last play of the Rose Bowl is a good example, where he made all his reads and then an excellent cut to the right, being patient enough to let the play develop despite having the national championship literally on the line. There have been many other examples throughout his college career.
But hey, whatever. You're just speculating (albeit on pretty obviously shoddy experience and evidence), as am I. Lots of people said that Young would be a WR in college, then in the NFL, and that he didn't deserve the Heisman before making Reggie Bush look like a chump on actual gameday, and he's proved them all wrong so far. I'm fairly confident that he'll do so again.
This site is a collection of UT highlights, and this is the section devoted to Vince. Like any player that could roll off 5 or 6 highlight-reel-worthy clips a game, you really have to see to believe, I think.
posted by spiderwire at 3:13 PM on April 29, 2006
Young's score on that test (16, reportedly) isn't stellar, but better than some hall of fame QBs.
I'd love to see a cite for that.
posted by Kwantsar at 3:17 PM on April 29, 2006
I'd love to see a cite for that.
posted by Kwantsar at 3:17 PM on April 29, 2006
Why the Texans passed on Vince Young, I'll never understand. He grew up in Houston. If anything could have saved their flagging franchise, you'd think they'd get the hometown hero with the enormous upside rather than the mediocre QB.
But if you're not going to go for Young... Williams? You have to admit that Bush is an electrifying player (in fact I think that, thanks to ESPN, he's now listed under 'electrifying' in the dictionary), and if not for the Houston Native argument, I think that he's just as good a pick as Young. But Williams?
posted by spiderwire at 3:23 PM on April 29, 2006
But if you're not going to go for Young... Williams? You have to admit that Bush is an electrifying player (in fact I think that, thanks to ESPN, he's now listed under 'electrifying' in the dictionary), and if not for the Houston Native argument, I think that he's just as good a pick as Young. But Williams?
posted by spiderwire at 3:23 PM on April 29, 2006
Is ANY of this anything more than speculation? I know Mel Kiper would like to make it seem that drafting players is some sort of science, but it isn't. And yet so much time and money are spent on it every year. It's pretty ludicrous.
posted by graventy at 3:26 PM on April 29, 2006
posted by graventy at 3:26 PM on April 29, 2006
Kwantsar, see here and here. A few examples include Dan Marino at 14 and Randall Cunningham at 15.
posted by monju_bosatsu at 3:28 PM on April 29, 2006
posted by monju_bosatsu at 3:28 PM on April 29, 2006
I'd love to see a cite for that.
http://www.macmirabile.com/Wonderlic/Wonderlic.htm
as the site admits, these are gathered from various sources and are unconfirmed; the nfl doesn't actually release the scores.
lord_wolf : that's an argument for and against.
exactly. note that i didn't say they were a great OL, they're just not as bad as people claim.
posted by lord_wolf at 3:30 PM on April 29, 2006
http://www.macmirabile.com/Wonderlic/Wonderlic.htm
as the site admits, these are gathered from various sources and are unconfirmed; the nfl doesn't actually release the scores.
lord_wolf : that's an argument for and against.
exactly. note that i didn't say they were a great OL, they're just not as bad as people claim.
posted by lord_wolf at 3:30 PM on April 29, 2006
I'd love to see a cite for that.
Google is your friend. Terry Bradshaw and Dan Marino both got 15s. I'm sure there are others.
Linked from that page: "Attempts to model passing performance using player and team characteristics revealed statistically significant relationships between a quarterback’s collegiate passing performance and his race and teammates. Intelligence, as measured by the Wonderlic score, was statistically insignificant."
posted by spiderwire at 3:31 PM on April 29, 2006
Google is your friend. Terry Bradshaw and Dan Marino both got 15s. I'm sure there are others.
Linked from that page: "Attempts to model passing performance using player and team characteristics revealed statistically significant relationships between a quarterback’s collegiate passing performance and his race and teammates. Intelligence, as measured by the Wonderlic score, was statistically insignificant."
posted by spiderwire at 3:31 PM on April 29, 2006
Heh, too slow. But I did get the academic cite in there. :)
posted by spiderwire at 3:32 PM on April 29, 2006
posted by spiderwire at 3:32 PM on April 29, 2006
In relevant news, the NCAA is now considering revoking USC's championship season because of Reggie Bush illegally receiving payments...
posted by spiderwire at 3:36 PM on April 29, 2006
posted by spiderwire at 3:36 PM on April 29, 2006
Chuckles writes: Wikipedia on the NFL Combine. I guess that is what pro sports is all about, but it is kind of repulsive. . .
No different than the GRE or LSAT IMO. Teams need a bench-mark for comparison. I think the combine probably boosts some guys who shouldn't be boosted (guys who are physical beasts but lack team skills), and screws some guys who would make perfectly good NFL ballers (not the fastest or strongest, but the ones with the biggest hearts and the ability to get up for big plays and big games), but them's the breaks and that's life.
Also, Spiderwire beat to it--Bradshaw was a great QB. He's also as smart as a bag of hammers.
posted by bardic at 3:40 PM on April 29, 2006
No different than the GRE or LSAT IMO. Teams need a bench-mark for comparison. I think the combine probably boosts some guys who shouldn't be boosted (guys who are physical beasts but lack team skills), and screws some guys who would make perfectly good NFL ballers (not the fastest or strongest, but the ones with the biggest hearts and the ability to get up for big plays and big games), but them's the breaks and that's life.
Also, Spiderwire beat to it--Bradshaw was a great QB. He's also as smart as a bag of hammers.
posted by bardic at 3:40 PM on April 29, 2006
Spiderwire:
Great to have a VY homer here! I'll just summarize what we know about VY:
1) He excelled in a dumbed down college style offense. It was a variation of the option that left receivers open for short dump offs when they tried to stop his running ability. Running QBs in the NFL are a dime a dozen these days. VY won't be able to run around or through NFL defenses the way he did at Texas. He'll actually have to throw the ball, so you better hope he actually learns how to do so before he can say "Akili."
2) Most of his fame comes from the Rose Bowl, a single game where he put up stellar numbers against a terrible defense.
3) He scored a 16 on the Wonderlic (this is official), and it took him at least two attempts to achieve this score. We can debate the importance or lack-thereof of the test all we want, but it does call into question his ability to learn new concepts (like a complicated football offense, or how to throw correctly).
4) Most "football" people (scouts, coaches, etc) are not high on VY but ownership and management is. When these people (like Titans owner Bud Adams) talk up VY they cite his Rose Bowl performance, the fact he played at Texas and that he's from Houston as positive attributes. It's said that Titans coach Jeff Fisher and asst Norm Chow wanted Leinart but Adams made the call for Young. (I thought Cutler was better than both, so what the hell?)
It will be interesting to see if Vince is thrown into he fray in the event of McNair leaving as rumored. It's going to be tragic watching him crash and burn.
posted by b_thinky at 4:04 PM on April 29, 2006
Great to have a VY homer here! I'll just summarize what we know about VY:
1) He excelled in a dumbed down college style offense. It was a variation of the option that left receivers open for short dump offs when they tried to stop his running ability. Running QBs in the NFL are a dime a dozen these days. VY won't be able to run around or through NFL defenses the way he did at Texas. He'll actually have to throw the ball, so you better hope he actually learns how to do so before he can say "Akili."
2) Most of his fame comes from the Rose Bowl, a single game where he put up stellar numbers against a terrible defense.
3) He scored a 16 on the Wonderlic (this is official), and it took him at least two attempts to achieve this score. We can debate the importance or lack-thereof of the test all we want, but it does call into question his ability to learn new concepts (like a complicated football offense, or how to throw correctly).
4) Most "football" people (scouts, coaches, etc) are not high on VY but ownership and management is. When these people (like Titans owner Bud Adams) talk up VY they cite his Rose Bowl performance, the fact he played at Texas and that he's from Houston as positive attributes. It's said that Titans coach Jeff Fisher and asst Norm Chow wanted Leinart but Adams made the call for Young. (I thought Cutler was better than both, so what the hell?)
It will be interesting to see if Vince is thrown into he fray in the event of McNair leaving as rumored. It's going to be tragic watching him crash and burn.
posted by b_thinky at 4:04 PM on April 29, 2006
In relevant news, the NCAA is now considering revoking USC's championship season because of Reggie Bush illegally receiving payments...
posted by spiderwire at 3:36 PM PST on April 29 [!]
Is that true or are you just making shit up? We all know about the house controversey, but USC didn't win the championship this year, so there'd be nothing to revoke.
Anyways, the big time programs always get a pass on that kind of crap. The NCAA is amongst the most corrupt organizations in the country.
posted by b_thinky at 4:06 PM on April 29, 2006
Bradshaw was a great QB. He's also as smart as a bag of hammers.
Don't insult hammers like that.
Most of his fame comes from the Rose Bowl, a single game where he put up stellar numbers against a terrible defense.
Then again, Reggie Bush's fame comes mostly from one game, too.
posted by dw at 4:09 PM on April 29, 2006
Don't insult hammers like that.
Most of his fame comes from the Rose Bowl, a single game where he put up stellar numbers against a terrible defense.
Then again, Reggie Bush's fame comes mostly from one game, too.
posted by dw at 4:09 PM on April 29, 2006
Umm, monju, the NFL has a scale for rookies. Bush could take it or leave it. If he left it, he would have to hold out a year and re-enter the draft.
Ther is a pay scale, but that only reflects the players actual salary. The big pay-days come in the form of signing bonuses, which are far less restricted.
It's really the only guaranteed money NFL players get. The cool thing about the NFL is teams can cut players if they're not performing or if they don't want to pay them anymore. So if a player gets a 5 year deal worth severl mil per, there is a good chance he'll never see much of that money.
This is why most high profile draft picks and free agents will demand huge signing bonuses - it's pretty much the player's only guaranteed money.
I heard Bush may be hard for the Saints to sign because he'll still be aiming for more than the Texans gave Williams.
posted by b_thinky at 4:12 PM on April 29, 2006
Ther is a pay scale, but that only reflects the players actual salary. The big pay-days come in the form of signing bonuses, which are far less restricted.
It's really the only guaranteed money NFL players get. The cool thing about the NFL is teams can cut players if they're not performing or if they don't want to pay them anymore. So if a player gets a 5 year deal worth severl mil per, there is a good chance he'll never see much of that money.
This is why most high profile draft picks and free agents will demand huge signing bonuses - it's pretty much the player's only guaranteed money.
I heard Bush may be hard for the Saints to sign because he'll still be aiming for more than the Texans gave Williams.
posted by b_thinky at 4:12 PM on April 29, 2006
Then again, Reggie Bush's fame comes mostly from one game, too.
posted by dw at 4:09 PM PST on April 29 [!]
So not true. Bush scored a TD every 5, 7 or 9 (something like that) touches he got. He averaged over 8 yards per carry. That's insane.
posted by b_thinky at 4:14 PM on April 29, 2006
Bush scored a TD every 5, 7 or 9 (something like that) touches he got. He averaged over 8 yards per carry. That's insane.
And do you really think he'll do that this year in the NFL?
If you do, let's put a $20 on it.
I say he doesn't.
posted by Cyrano at 4:51 PM on April 29, 2006
And do you really think he'll do that this year in the NFL?
If you do, let's put a $20 on it.
I say he doesn't.
posted by Cyrano at 4:51 PM on April 29, 2006
If you're going to argue about this sort of thing, at least make a good argument.
1) He excelled in a dumbed down college style offense. It was a variation of the option that left receivers open for short dump offs when they tried to stop his running ability. Running QBs in the NFL are a dime a dozen these days.
And everyone admits that none are as good as Vince. He played under center in high school, ran lots of reps under center at Texas, and Chow will have him work under center before he plays in the NFL. He's got a great arm for the long ball, as displayed in a number of games this year, notably OU.
Also, who cares? The criticism of not practicing under center is that you can't necessarily survey the field as well as from the shotgun, and Vince is tall enough to do it anyway. He's said and demonstrated that he likes both positions equally.
VY won't be able to run around or through NFL defenses the way he did at Texas.
No, but it forces defenses to put more up front to stop the run, so it makes his passing easier. He's shown that he has the ability to make passes time and time again when stacked in the box -- see OSU this year (5 first round draft picks this year, btw) as well as the 4th quarter of the Rose Bowl, among others.
He'll actually have to throw the ball, so you better hope he actually learns how to do so before he can say "Akili."
Ad hominems get you nowhere, but they do make you look like an asshole.
However, it's understandable that you'd resort to that since the numbers tell a pretty clear story, and it's not in your favor. Top passing efficiency in the nation last year. Completed about 60% of his throws over his career. Has demonstrated the ability to throw on the run and makes good decisions. This all in the face of criticisms of his throwing ability that have become increasingly one-note over the years.
His TD/INT ratio was quite good last year, and becomes almost ludicrous when you consider the rushing touchdowns that most QBs would have had to throw for. He was throwing to a receiver corps with two upperclassmen and still ended up with 3,000 yards passing in addition to 1,000 yards rushing, which no one has come close to before, not even the 'dime a dozen' running QBs.
2) Most of his fame comes from the Rose Bowl, a single game where he put up stellar numbers against a terrible defense.
1. Who gives a shit what he's famous for? It's my understanding that picking players based on fame is generally frowned upon.
2. USC's defense was 'terrible'? What kind of crack are you smoking?
3. A QB rushing for 200 and passing for 260 is embarrassing against any defense. Especially one that's national-championship caliber. This, all in addition to the fact that they knew that he was the threat they had to stop and couldn't do it.
4. Has did the exact same thing to college defenses in every game he played for 3 years running, including Michigan in last year's Rose Bowl.
5. He beat OSU's defense, arguably the best in the country last year, with unarguably the best LB corps. Notably, the stuffed the box and he beat them through the air.
6. Is your argument 'he did really well in the most important college game of his career, and that's bad'? This is a point in VY's favor, and with his 20-2 record as a starter (2 losses to OU, which was a devastating team both years) speaks for itself. Just because you never watched him in college doesn't give you the right to make ignorant generalizations.
3) He scored a 16 on the Wonderlic (this is official), and it took him at least two attempts to achieve this score.
Incorrect. It's been universally acknowledged that the first test was scored wrong, and it was invalidated. If Mack Brown says it, then it's almost without a doubt true.
We can debate the importance or lack-thereof of the test all we want, but it does call into question his ability to learn new concepts (like a complicated football offense, or how to throw correctly).
Like going from criticisms about his passing to the top QB rating in the nation over one season?
Wasn't Pete Carroll supposed to be the most brilliant college DC in the nation? VY sure made him look like a chump.
Young's grasp of football concepts is quite solid if you've ever heard him talk about it. He's done an excellent job of changing plays on the field and making key decisions in critical situations (e.g. seeing the defensive lineup and changing the play to convert a 4th-and-18 at Kansas last year to win the game, last TD of the RB, etc. etc. etc.).
Also, again, the study cited upthread: there's no correlation between Wonderlic scores and passing ability. Dunno if you've ever took the thing, but there aren't any question on there about reading disguised Cover 2 schemes. It's a general-purpose employer test.
4) Most "football" people (scouts, coaches, etc)-are not high on VY but ownership and management is.
Essentially every coach Young ever played, including Pete Carroll, lamented afterwards how badly he'd torn up their defenses and how ungodly good he is. LenDale White said that he would rather play under Vince Young in the NFL than Leinart. (This before the Titans drafted him.) The scouts at his NFL workout came away universally impressed and said that he had excellent footwork, arm strength, and accuracy.
When these people (like Titans owner Bud Adams) talk up VY they cite his Rose Bowl performance, the fact he played at Texas and that he's from Houston as positive attributes.
Err, as opposed to Cutler playing for Vanderbilt? WTF? They're not the Oilers anymore.
It's said that Titans coach Jeff Fisher and asst Norm Chow wanted Leinart but Adams made the call for Young. (I thought Cutler was better than both, so what the hell?)
Right. You can see what Reese, Fisher, and Chow had to say about the situation here, and suffice it to say, you're wrong.
Chow on Vince's throwing:
"I don’t see a problem with his delivery at all. You always want to look at his footwork and his footwork is pretty good right now. But we will look for the little things to try to fix but his delivery is fine. The ball comes out very quickly and he’s very accurate. So I don’t think that will be a problem."
And on him and Fisher and how he feels about Leinart:
"There’s no question. Obviously I love Matt Leinart. I’ve spent a lot of time with him. But what Vince brings to the table is excitement with the abilities and skills that he has I think are so unusual. We are so excited about the potential that Vince has and what he can bring to us and what exciting things we can do. Jeff (Fisher) and I, last night, were already screaming plays that we thought would fit with his style."
But, nice try. Come play again sometime.
Where did Cutler end up going again?
posted by spiderwire at 5:12 PM on April 29, 2006
1) He excelled in a dumbed down college style offense. It was a variation of the option that left receivers open for short dump offs when they tried to stop his running ability. Running QBs in the NFL are a dime a dozen these days.
And everyone admits that none are as good as Vince. He played under center in high school, ran lots of reps under center at Texas, and Chow will have him work under center before he plays in the NFL. He's got a great arm for the long ball, as displayed in a number of games this year, notably OU.
Also, who cares? The criticism of not practicing under center is that you can't necessarily survey the field as well as from the shotgun, and Vince is tall enough to do it anyway. He's said and demonstrated that he likes both positions equally.
VY won't be able to run around or through NFL defenses the way he did at Texas.
No, but it forces defenses to put more up front to stop the run, so it makes his passing easier. He's shown that he has the ability to make passes time and time again when stacked in the box -- see OSU this year (5 first round draft picks this year, btw) as well as the 4th quarter of the Rose Bowl, among others.
He'll actually have to throw the ball, so you better hope he actually learns how to do so before he can say "Akili."
Ad hominems get you nowhere, but they do make you look like an asshole.
However, it's understandable that you'd resort to that since the numbers tell a pretty clear story, and it's not in your favor. Top passing efficiency in the nation last year. Completed about 60% of his throws over his career. Has demonstrated the ability to throw on the run and makes good decisions. This all in the face of criticisms of his throwing ability that have become increasingly one-note over the years.
His TD/INT ratio was quite good last year, and becomes almost ludicrous when you consider the rushing touchdowns that most QBs would have had to throw for. He was throwing to a receiver corps with two upperclassmen and still ended up with 3,000 yards passing in addition to 1,000 yards rushing, which no one has come close to before, not even the 'dime a dozen' running QBs.
2) Most of his fame comes from the Rose Bowl, a single game where he put up stellar numbers against a terrible defense.
1. Who gives a shit what he's famous for? It's my understanding that picking players based on fame is generally frowned upon.
2. USC's defense was 'terrible'? What kind of crack are you smoking?
3. A QB rushing for 200 and passing for 260 is embarrassing against any defense. Especially one that's national-championship caliber. This, all in addition to the fact that they knew that he was the threat they had to stop and couldn't do it.
4. Has did the exact same thing to college defenses in every game he played for 3 years running, including Michigan in last year's Rose Bowl.
5. He beat OSU's defense, arguably the best in the country last year, with unarguably the best LB corps. Notably, the stuffed the box and he beat them through the air.
6. Is your argument 'he did really well in the most important college game of his career, and that's bad'? This is a point in VY's favor, and with his 20-2 record as a starter (2 losses to OU, which was a devastating team both years) speaks for itself. Just because you never watched him in college doesn't give you the right to make ignorant generalizations.
3) He scored a 16 on the Wonderlic (this is official), and it took him at least two attempts to achieve this score.
Incorrect. It's been universally acknowledged that the first test was scored wrong, and it was invalidated. If Mack Brown says it, then it's almost without a doubt true.
We can debate the importance or lack-thereof of the test all we want, but it does call into question his ability to learn new concepts (like a complicated football offense, or how to throw correctly).
Like going from criticisms about his passing to the top QB rating in the nation over one season?
Wasn't Pete Carroll supposed to be the most brilliant college DC in the nation? VY sure made him look like a chump.
Young's grasp of football concepts is quite solid if you've ever heard him talk about it. He's done an excellent job of changing plays on the field and making key decisions in critical situations (e.g. seeing the defensive lineup and changing the play to convert a 4th-and-18 at Kansas last year to win the game, last TD of the RB, etc. etc. etc.).
Also, again, the study cited upthread: there's no correlation between Wonderlic scores and passing ability. Dunno if you've ever took the thing, but there aren't any question on there about reading disguised Cover 2 schemes. It's a general-purpose employer test.
4) Most "football" people (scouts, coaches, etc)-are not high on VY but ownership and management is.
Essentially every coach Young ever played, including Pete Carroll, lamented afterwards how badly he'd torn up their defenses and how ungodly good he is. LenDale White said that he would rather play under Vince Young in the NFL than Leinart. (This before the Titans drafted him.) The scouts at his NFL workout came away universally impressed and said that he had excellent footwork, arm strength, and accuracy.
When these people (like Titans owner Bud Adams) talk up VY they cite his Rose Bowl performance, the fact he played at Texas and that he's from Houston as positive attributes.
Err, as opposed to Cutler playing for Vanderbilt? WTF? They're not the Oilers anymore.
It's said that Titans coach Jeff Fisher and asst Norm Chow wanted Leinart but Adams made the call for Young. (I thought Cutler was better than both, so what the hell?)
Right. You can see what Reese, Fisher, and Chow had to say about the situation here, and suffice it to say, you're wrong.
Chow on Vince's throwing:
"I don’t see a problem with his delivery at all. You always want to look at his footwork and his footwork is pretty good right now. But we will look for the little things to try to fix but his delivery is fine. The ball comes out very quickly and he’s very accurate. So I don’t think that will be a problem."
And on him and Fisher and how he feels about Leinart:
"There’s no question. Obviously I love Matt Leinart. I’ve spent a lot of time with him. But what Vince brings to the table is excitement with the abilities and skills that he has I think are so unusual. We are so excited about the potential that Vince has and what he can bring to us and what exciting things we can do. Jeff (Fisher) and I, last night, were already screaming plays that we thought would fit with his style."
But, nice try. Come play again sometime.
Where did Cutler end up going again?
posted by spiderwire at 5:12 PM on April 29, 2006
Bush scored a TD every 5, 7 or 9 (something like that) touches he got. He averaged over 8 yards per carry. That's insane.
Is 7 yards per carry less than insane? What if it's for a QB?
...Cause that's what Vince Young averaged last year. For the record.
posted by spiderwire at 5:18 PM on April 29, 2006
Is 7 yards per carry less than insane? What if it's for a QB?
...Cause that's what Vince Young averaged last year. For the record.
posted by spiderwire at 5:18 PM on April 29, 2006
Also, apologies for the rushed post. Many typos, and Young was 30-2 as a starter. Running out the door now.
Additional apologies for the triple-post.
posted by spiderwire at 5:20 PM on April 29, 2006
Additional apologies for the triple-post.
posted by spiderwire at 5:20 PM on April 29, 2006
that first line was such a cock-tease. i thought it was the state of texas rejecting dubya.
posted by Doorstop at 6:26 PM on April 29, 2006
posted by Doorstop at 6:26 PM on April 29, 2006
>>Bush scored a TD every 5, 7 or 9 (something like that) touches he got. He averaged over 8 yards per carry. That's insane.
And do you really think he'll do that this year in the NFL?
If you do, let's put a $20 on it.
I say he doesn't.
posted by Cyrano at 7:51 PM EST on April 29 [!]
The point was that Bush was more than a one game star - not that his statistical pace would continue into the pros.
posted by jikel_morten at 7:32 PM on April 29, 2006
And do you really think he'll do that this year in the NFL?
If you do, let's put a $20 on it.
I say he doesn't.
posted by Cyrano at 7:51 PM EST on April 29 [!]
The point was that Bush was more than a one game star - not that his statistical pace would continue into the pros.
posted by jikel_morten at 7:32 PM on April 29, 2006
I am a Detroit Lions fan.
With the #9 pick we took an out of control OLB (a position in which we are well stocked).
Did I mention his 5 concussions in 3 years?
Pity the lowly Lions fan...
posted by WinnipegDragon at 7:57 PM on April 29, 2006
With the #9 pick we took an out of control OLB (a position in which we are well stocked).
Did I mention his 5 concussions in 3 years?
Pity the lowly Lions fan...
posted by WinnipegDragon at 7:57 PM on April 29, 2006
Dude. You should pick up a football for dummies book or something.
A "pro-style" offense isn't one where the QB lines up under center. Nor is a "college style" offense one where the QB lines up in a shotgun formation. How the QB takes the snap is largely irrelevant to how the play progresses.
Since nobody ever told you, a college offense is one which depends upon the option. In Texas' modified option, VY forces the defense to commit to stopping him on the ground or in the air, hopefully leaving him enough time to switch to the attack which the defense is not covering. This style offense is great when you have an athlete like Vince who is bigger/stronger/faster than the competition.
Such an offense is unsuccessful in the pros because the level of athlete on defense is far superior. Nobody will need to stack the box versus VY because he won't be any more of a threat to run than, say, Aaron Brooks.
And, yes, USC's defense was awful this year. Due to injuries, they finished the year using their 3rd or 4th CBs. Here's how they finished statistically (out of 117 teams):
Total Defense: 48th
Rushing Defense: 31st
Passing Defense: 73rd
Passing Efficiency: 42nd
Scoring Defense: 35th
I'm glad Mr. Young has brought you so much enjoyment. I did not know Mack Brown's word was worth so much - that's amazing. Vince was a great college QB for 1.5 seasons. So was Michael Bishop.
posted by b_thinky at 10:21 PM on April 29, 2006
A "pro-style" offense isn't one where the QB lines up under center. Nor is a "college style" offense one where the QB lines up in a shotgun formation. How the QB takes the snap is largely irrelevant to how the play progresses.
Since nobody ever told you, a college offense is one which depends upon the option. In Texas' modified option, VY forces the defense to commit to stopping him on the ground or in the air, hopefully leaving him enough time to switch to the attack which the defense is not covering. This style offense is great when you have an athlete like Vince who is bigger/stronger/faster than the competition.
Such an offense is unsuccessful in the pros because the level of athlete on defense is far superior. Nobody will need to stack the box versus VY because he won't be any more of a threat to run than, say, Aaron Brooks.
And, yes, USC's defense was awful this year. Due to injuries, they finished the year using their 3rd or 4th CBs. Here's how they finished statistically (out of 117 teams):
Total Defense: 48th
Rushing Defense: 31st
Passing Defense: 73rd
Passing Efficiency: 42nd
Scoring Defense: 35th
I'm glad Mr. Young has brought you so much enjoyment. I did not know Mack Brown's word was worth so much - that's amazing. Vince was a great college QB for 1.5 seasons. So was Michael Bishop.
posted by b_thinky at 10:21 PM on April 29, 2006
Dude. You should pick up a football for dummies book or something.
And you should learn the difference between pro- and college-style offenses, which are colloquial terms. Speaking of which, here's a little football for dummies. Go read it.
A "pro-style" offense isn't one where the QB lines up under center. Nor is a "college style" offense one where the QB lines up in a shotgun formation. How the QB takes the snap is largely irrelevant to how the play progresses.
Um... you are simply wrong. Those are colloquial terms used to describe the complexity of offenses.
Every formation in a pro-style offense lines up under center (a"pro set"). Texas runs a spread offense out of the shotgun. The criticism of Young is that he is used to lining up in the shotgun and getting a better view of the field than he would under center, and there were questions about his footwork, since in the shotgun he doesn't have to step back a set number of steps, etc.
Fortunately, Norm Chow and a number of others say that his footwork is excellent, along with the rest of his skillset. Speaking of which, what happened to all that malarkey about Chow and Fisher et. al. hating Young? And for that matter, the complaints about the throwing motion? The Wonderlic?
Anyway, the point is that Texas actually runs a fairly sophisticated offense (FWIW, Chris Simms seems to be getting by okay in the pros), and by all accounts Vince was well in command of it.
Incidentally, Chris Simms also says that Vince is the best QB to come out of Texas, and thinks he'll do fine in the NFL. He may know something about that, being the last NFL QB to come out of Texas.
Since nobody ever told you, a college offense is one which depends upon the option.
...Um. Again, you are wrong. An option play is a specific type of play that the QB calls before the snap, and can employ a number of 'options,' hence the name, including passes, pitches, etc. Texas runs mostly planned pass and run plays, with one particular play they used heavily during Young's tenure, the "zone read" play, in which Vince would read the opponent's lineup and either keep or pitch to the RB.
In Texas' modified option, VY forces the defense to commit to stopping him on the ground or in the air, hopefully leaving him enough time to switch to the attack which the defense is not covering.
You are incorrect again. Texas' 'option' is a called pitch to the RB on the outside based on the defensive lineup. Most of the running plays are called in advance, but Vince has been known to scramble, which isn't an 'option' at all. For example, the last play of the Rose Bowl is called 'Menu 2' -- it calls for checking 3 open receivers and falling to a QB sneak if none are open -- which is what Vince did.
Granted, college offenses are generally more complex than high school offenses, but there's currently little question regarding whether Young will be able to adapt to the complexity.
Such an offense is unsuccessful in the pros because the level of athlete on defense is far superior. Nobody will need to stack the box versus VY because he won't be any more of a threat to run than, say, Aaron Brooks.
If you really think that Vince Young isn't going to be more of a running threat than Aaron Brooks, then I'm just going to say that I'd rather be a Vince Young homer than a Jay Cutler homer and leave it at that. You're ridiculous.
If I were going to dignify this with a response, I'd likely point out that I said that Young wouldn't have as much success running in the pros as in college, but that his mobility still makes him a serious threat to break the pocket and to recover broken plays. Additionally, it gives you an additional RB in the backfield, period, which can't do anything but make him harder to defend -- even when there's no RB on the field the run is always open. It makes it easier to disguise plays, etc., etc., and it's a nightmare for any DC no matter how you slice it.
Also, he's pretty widely acknowledged as a better runner than Vick due to his superior cutting ability, and he's significantly larger. Are you going to say that Vick hasn't been able to run in the NFL, too?
And, yes, USC's defense was awful this year. Due to injuries, they finished the year using their 3rd or 4th CBs.
Frostee Rucker and Winston Justice (among others) would like to have a word with you about that. Just off the top of my head.
Here's how they finished statistically (out of 117 teams):
Total Defense: 48th
Rushing Defense: 31st
Passing Defense: 73rd
Passing Efficiency: 42nd
Scoring Defense: 35th
Bwaaahahaha. Maybe you should go dig up the numbers from before the RB, when USC was ranked 39th in total defense. Texas knocked them down almost 10 ranks in one game, and Young's yardage broke their total yards allowed by over 100.
USC also led the nation in takeaways (37) but only got one off Texas, and no interceptions after 22 in the regular season. But Young's a terrible passer, right? He sure got screwed by that poor delivery, what with that 75% completion rate. Oh, did we stop talking about that, too?
I'm glad Mr. Young has brought you so much enjoyment. I did not know Mack Brown's word was worth so much - that's amazing.
Arguments about Young aside, Mack Brown is one of the most stand-up coaches in college football. He is a man of extraordinary character. Closing words to the team after the Rose Bowl:
"Finally, this is the most important thing I want you to hear tonight. Remember that we love you. Be proud of what you have accomplished, and enjoy this moment. Let this be a great thing in life, but don't let it be the best thing that ever happens in your life. Go on from here, be great husbands and great dads, and make a difference."
Everyone I know who's met him says he's an amazing guy. Very warm, has an eidetic memory for names. Recruits based on character in addition to skill.
Vince was a great college QB for 1.5 seasons. So was Michael Bishop.
2.5 seasons, 30-2 as a starter. Michael Vick was the first QB drafted after 2 seasons -- I suppose that means he sucks too?
I'll agree to disagree with you on this, but many of these arguments are silly.
posted by spiderwire at 11:36 PM on April 29, 2006
And you should learn the difference between pro- and college-style offenses, which are colloquial terms. Speaking of which, here's a little football for dummies. Go read it.
A "pro-style" offense isn't one where the QB lines up under center. Nor is a "college style" offense one where the QB lines up in a shotgun formation. How the QB takes the snap is largely irrelevant to how the play progresses.
Um... you are simply wrong. Those are colloquial terms used to describe the complexity of offenses.
Every formation in a pro-style offense lines up under center (a"pro set"). Texas runs a spread offense out of the shotgun. The criticism of Young is that he is used to lining up in the shotgun and getting a better view of the field than he would under center, and there were questions about his footwork, since in the shotgun he doesn't have to step back a set number of steps, etc.
Fortunately, Norm Chow and a number of others say that his footwork is excellent, along with the rest of his skillset. Speaking of which, what happened to all that malarkey about Chow and Fisher et. al. hating Young? And for that matter, the complaints about the throwing motion? The Wonderlic?
Anyway, the point is that Texas actually runs a fairly sophisticated offense (FWIW, Chris Simms seems to be getting by okay in the pros), and by all accounts Vince was well in command of it.
Incidentally, Chris Simms also says that Vince is the best QB to come out of Texas, and thinks he'll do fine in the NFL. He may know something about that, being the last NFL QB to come out of Texas.
Since nobody ever told you, a college offense is one which depends upon the option.
...Um. Again, you are wrong. An option play is a specific type of play that the QB calls before the snap, and can employ a number of 'options,' hence the name, including passes, pitches, etc. Texas runs mostly planned pass and run plays, with one particular play they used heavily during Young's tenure, the "zone read" play, in which Vince would read the opponent's lineup and either keep or pitch to the RB.
In Texas' modified option, VY forces the defense to commit to stopping him on the ground or in the air, hopefully leaving him enough time to switch to the attack which the defense is not covering.
You are incorrect again. Texas' 'option' is a called pitch to the RB on the outside based on the defensive lineup. Most of the running plays are called in advance, but Vince has been known to scramble, which isn't an 'option' at all. For example, the last play of the Rose Bowl is called 'Menu 2' -- it calls for checking 3 open receivers and falling to a QB sneak if none are open -- which is what Vince did.
Granted, college offenses are generally more complex than high school offenses, but there's currently little question regarding whether Young will be able to adapt to the complexity.
Such an offense is unsuccessful in the pros because the level of athlete on defense is far superior. Nobody will need to stack the box versus VY because he won't be any more of a threat to run than, say, Aaron Brooks.
If you really think that Vince Young isn't going to be more of a running threat than Aaron Brooks, then I'm just going to say that I'd rather be a Vince Young homer than a Jay Cutler homer and leave it at that. You're ridiculous.
If I were going to dignify this with a response, I'd likely point out that I said that Young wouldn't have as much success running in the pros as in college, but that his mobility still makes him a serious threat to break the pocket and to recover broken plays. Additionally, it gives you an additional RB in the backfield, period, which can't do anything but make him harder to defend -- even when there's no RB on the field the run is always open. It makes it easier to disguise plays, etc., etc., and it's a nightmare for any DC no matter how you slice it.
Also, he's pretty widely acknowledged as a better runner than Vick due to his superior cutting ability, and he's significantly larger. Are you going to say that Vick hasn't been able to run in the NFL, too?
And, yes, USC's defense was awful this year. Due to injuries, they finished the year using their 3rd or 4th CBs.
Frostee Rucker and Winston Justice (among others) would like to have a word with you about that. Just off the top of my head.
Here's how they finished statistically (out of 117 teams):
Total Defense: 48th
Rushing Defense: 31st
Passing Defense: 73rd
Passing Efficiency: 42nd
Scoring Defense: 35th
Bwaaahahaha. Maybe you should go dig up the numbers from before the RB, when USC was ranked 39th in total defense. Texas knocked them down almost 10 ranks in one game, and Young's yardage broke their total yards allowed by over 100.
USC also led the nation in takeaways (37) but only got one off Texas, and no interceptions after 22 in the regular season. But Young's a terrible passer, right? He sure got screwed by that poor delivery, what with that 75% completion rate. Oh, did we stop talking about that, too?
I'm glad Mr. Young has brought you so much enjoyment. I did not know Mack Brown's word was worth so much - that's amazing.
Arguments about Young aside, Mack Brown is one of the most stand-up coaches in college football. He is a man of extraordinary character. Closing words to the team after the Rose Bowl:
"Finally, this is the most important thing I want you to hear tonight. Remember that we love you. Be proud of what you have accomplished, and enjoy this moment. Let this be a great thing in life, but don't let it be the best thing that ever happens in your life. Go on from here, be great husbands and great dads, and make a difference."
Everyone I know who's met him says he's an amazing guy. Very warm, has an eidetic memory for names. Recruits based on character in addition to skill.
Vince was a great college QB for 1.5 seasons. So was Michael Bishop.
2.5 seasons, 30-2 as a starter. Michael Vick was the first QB drafted after 2 seasons -- I suppose that means he sucks too?
I'll agree to disagree with you on this, but many of these arguments are silly.
posted by spiderwire at 11:36 PM on April 29, 2006
Pity the lowly Lions fan...
Please, please trade Roy Williams to the Titans. Thanks.
posted by spiderwire at 11:37 PM on April 29, 2006
Please, please trade Roy Williams to the Titans. Thanks.
posted by spiderwire at 11:37 PM on April 29, 2006
Vince was a great college QB for 1.5 seasons. So was Michael Bishop.
No.
Michael Bishop was a good college QB. He wasn't all that smart. And he was relatively small. So, it's no wonder he was a bust in the pros.
Kordell Stewart was an OK college QB that lacked the instinct needed to make the right pass. And yet, he was the starting QB for the Steelers for a number of years.
Seneca Wallace was a good college QB with a lot of speed but not a lot of success in the Big XII. And yet, he's backing up Matt Hasselbeck in Seattle and has played some as a second QB and WR.
Vince Young is better than all three of these guys. He's probably on the same level as Michael Vick, only a little larger and a little faster. And Vick has showed that with a little blocking and a lot of speed a scrambling QB can succeed quite well in the NFL, so long as the coaches don't change the system on him every five minutes.
Should VY gone at #3? I don't think so. He probably should have fallen to Oakland. But he's better than Matt Leinart. I see a lot of Ryan Leaf in Leinart. Lots of ego and a belief that their talent is enough. He's going to learn the hard way that he was only as good as the system he played under.
posted by dw at 11:47 PM on April 29, 2006
No.
Michael Bishop was a good college QB. He wasn't all that smart. And he was relatively small. So, it's no wonder he was a bust in the pros.
Kordell Stewart was an OK college QB that lacked the instinct needed to make the right pass. And yet, he was the starting QB for the Steelers for a number of years.
Seneca Wallace was a good college QB with a lot of speed but not a lot of success in the Big XII. And yet, he's backing up Matt Hasselbeck in Seattle and has played some as a second QB and WR.
Vince Young is better than all three of these guys. He's probably on the same level as Michael Vick, only a little larger and a little faster. And Vick has showed that with a little blocking and a lot of speed a scrambling QB can succeed quite well in the NFL, so long as the coaches don't change the system on him every five minutes.
Should VY gone at #3? I don't think so. He probably should have fallen to Oakland. But he's better than Matt Leinart. I see a lot of Ryan Leaf in Leinart. Lots of ego and a belief that their talent is enough. He's going to learn the hard way that he was only as good as the system he played under.
posted by dw at 11:47 PM on April 29, 2006
Vince Young is better than all three of these guys. He's probably on the same level as Michael Vick, only a little larger and a little faster.
5 inches taller and 25 pounds heavier is "a little larger"? Eep.
Good riddance to Leinart in Arizona. I liked him until he was a complete ass after the Rose Bowl ("we were the better team" etc.) and continued to spout the same line even last week. The way he reacted to being drafted by Arizona (2nd QB in the draft! Horrors!) just sealed the deal. At least Young and Cutler seem to have some character.
posted by spiderwire at 11:58 PM on April 29, 2006
5 inches taller and 25 pounds heavier is "a little larger"? Eep.
Good riddance to Leinart in Arizona. I liked him until he was a complete ass after the Rose Bowl ("we were the better team" etc.) and continued to spout the same line even last week. The way he reacted to being drafted by Arizona (2nd QB in the draft! Horrors!) just sealed the deal. At least Young and Cutler seem to have some character.
posted by spiderwire at 11:58 PM on April 29, 2006
1) Winston Justice plays OT. That's on offense FYI. Offense is not defense.
2) I appreciate your support of the home team, but you clearly don't know shit about football.
3) I played FB all through college, 4 years, 1 as starter, 3 bowl games, 1 BCS victory, finished 3rd in the nation that year. That's just to say, hey, I wasted a lot of time being forced to watch films and all kinds of that shit, studying football, hundreds and thousands of hours. I think I know a little bit about the game.
4) We'll have to agree to disagree. Time will tell.
5) The one thing we can agree on, because the facts substantiate it, is that Vince Young has a really, really, low IQ. He is completely dumb.
6) Hook em Horns!
posted by b_thinky at 12:07 AM on April 30, 2006
2) I appreciate your support of the home team, but you clearly don't know shit about football.
3) I played FB all through college, 4 years, 1 as starter, 3 bowl games, 1 BCS victory, finished 3rd in the nation that year. That's just to say, hey, I wasted a lot of time being forced to watch films and all kinds of that shit, studying football, hundreds and thousands of hours. I think I know a little bit about the game.
4) We'll have to agree to disagree. Time will tell.
5) The one thing we can agree on, because the facts substantiate it, is that Vince Young has a really, really, low IQ. He is completely dumb.
6) Hook em Horns!
posted by b_thinky at 12:07 AM on April 30, 2006
Leinart will do OK in AZ. Warner will get hurt or get benched after fumbling 18 times in the first 3 games and Leinart will have to play. They seem to have some tools on offense, so I'd say he has a better shot at success if he plays immediately than Young does.
I don't see where all the hatred for Leinart comes from. He's done nothing wrong. He had a stellar career, better than Vince Young's. Believing in your team is not arrogance. If they did replay the game 1000 times, USC would probably win 800+.
posted by b_thinky at 12:12 AM on April 30, 2006
I don't see where all the hatred for Leinart comes from. He's done nothing wrong. He had a stellar career, better than Vince Young's. Believing in your team is not arrogance. If they did replay the game 1000 times, USC would probably win 800+.
posted by b_thinky at 12:12 AM on April 30, 2006
ESPN Sportsnation: 52% say Vince Young most likely to be 1st round bust.
I guess I'm not the only one.
posted by b_thinky at 12:17 AM on April 30, 2006
I guess I'm not the only one.
posted by b_thinky at 12:17 AM on April 30, 2006
I guess I'm the only person on the planet who thinks Mario Williams was the right pick. The guy is 6'7" 295lbs and runs a 4.7 40. He's a grind in the tape room, and he's a character guy. He could grow into the next Reggie White. He's going to be an awesome pass rusher in the pros. I think it's the best first pick in years, though, of course, they paid him way too much money. (54 mil over nine years? Jesus Christ!)
If I were the Texans, I'd have taken VY just to improve ticket sales, but Mario Williams is going to be a great, great defensive end. VY will be an interesting work-in-progress, and he's got me thinking about driving up to Nashville to check out a Titans game or two, and I'm sure I'm not the only one. (But anyone who says VY is as fast as Mike Vick is smoking crack.)
I'm glad Leinart went to Arizona. Remember all those college championships, Matt? Well, keep those in mind, 'cause they're the last championships you'll ever see.
posted by BitterOldPunk at 12:18 AM on April 30, 2006
If I were the Texans, I'd have taken VY just to improve ticket sales, but Mario Williams is going to be a great, great defensive end. VY will be an interesting work-in-progress, and he's got me thinking about driving up to Nashville to check out a Titans game or two, and I'm sure I'm not the only one. (But anyone who says VY is as fast as Mike Vick is smoking crack.)
I'm glad Leinart went to Arizona. Remember all those college championships, Matt? Well, keep those in mind, 'cause they're the last championships you'll ever see.
posted by BitterOldPunk at 12:18 AM on April 30, 2006
I'll add that the Texans also got DeMeco Ryans, OLB, from Bama, and he's the sleeper pick of the whole shebang: he's a workhorse. A really bright motivated kid with great instincts and another character guy. The Texans are drafting really well. Who else did they pick? Two offensive linemen. Good for them.
And is it just me, or is Virginia Tech now a farm team for my beloved Falcons?
posted by BitterOldPunk at 12:39 AM on April 30, 2006
And is it just me, or is Virginia Tech now a farm team for my beloved Falcons?
posted by BitterOldPunk at 12:39 AM on April 30, 2006
Mario Williams seems like a stud on paper but he's not been dominant on the field. I've seen a lot of great athletes with abilities that should but just don't materialize into the field of play.
I think there was something about Reggie - off the field - the Texans didn't like. I'm sure he's arrogant (who wouldn't be, at 20, with the kind of pub he's had for 2 years) and wanted a bazillion dollars. I also know for a fact USC's program is less than squeaky. IMO, that has nothing to do with the NFL but for some teams, it's a consideration.
posted by b_thinky at 12:52 AM on April 30, 2006
I think there was something about Reggie - off the field - the Texans didn't like. I'm sure he's arrogant (who wouldn't be, at 20, with the kind of pub he's had for 2 years) and wanted a bazillion dollars. I also know for a fact USC's program is less than squeaky. IMO, that has nothing to do with the NFL but for some teams, it's a consideration.
posted by b_thinky at 12:52 AM on April 30, 2006
1) Winston Justice plays OT. That's on offense FYI. Offense is not defense.
I'm aware. I was thinking of someone else. Doesn't change the fact that USC had a solid defense. But thanks for being mature about it. [rolls eyes]
2) I appreciate your support of the home team, but you clearly don't know shit about football.
Again, way to take the high ground. Care to comment specifically? I'm open to being educated. Maybe there's a nice helpful webpage explaining the difference between 'college-style' and 'pro-style' offenses in the way you propose? 'Cause if so, I damn sure can't find any, and I'd like to know.
Also -- home team? I live in Austin right now, but my home team is the Ducks... I don't root for them for obvious reasons. I like Texas, but that's not why I'm defending Vince Young.
3) I played FB all through college, 4 years, 1 as starter, 3 bowl games, 1 BCS victory, finished 3rd in the nation that year. That's just to say, hey, I wasted a lot of time being forced to watch films and all kinds of that shit, studying football, hundreds and thousands of hours. I think I know a little bit about the game.
That's nice.
You know, by all accounts, Vince Young has spent just as much time in the film room and has an even more impressive record throughout his football career. It seems pretty unfair to me that you'd assume that he doesn't know anything about the game when you're clearly no more familiar with him than I am with USC's defensive roster.
5) The one thing we can agree on, because the facts substantiate it, is that Vince Young has a really, really, low IQ. He is completely dumb.
Low IQ != dumb. He's always struck me as a reasonably bright guy. So no, I don't agree. It's also insulting. Regardless, we've discussed that there's no known correlation between intelligence and football ability, cf. Terry Bradshaw.
I don't see where all the hatred for Leinart comes from. He's done nothing wrong. He had a stellar career, better than Vince Young's. Believing in your team is not arrogance.
No, but whining about it after the game like he did is childish. And even if I were to chalk it up to the heat of the moment, he said it again on ESPN last week. That's just disrespectful, and it also shows a lack of maturity to admit defeat and blame the loss on circumstance. Players that don't learn to do that fail. And you know -- all that aside, copping an attitude about being picked 10th in the draft (just my opinion) is also pretty weak.
That said, I don't have any hatred for Leinart, and I do think he'll be successful. But he strikes me sort of the same way Chris Simms did while he was at UT -- like he's grown to expect success rather than working for it. I was always pretty sure that the NFL would smack some sense into Chris damn quick, and it did. He was still a whiner in college. I'm fairly confident that the same thing will happen to Leinart.
ESPN Sportsnation: 52% say Vince Young most likely to be 1st round bust.
I guess I'm not the only one.
Ah yes, the infinite wisdom of internet polls. I wonder how many people polled on ESPN (of all places) thought that USC would win the Rose Bowl?
Look, the point about Leinart puts into relief the reason I'll defend Vince Young, and it doesn't have a lot to do with Texas. I'm not a Texas homer by any means, although they were real fun to watch while Young was in the backfield.
Vince Young is a genuinely nice and bright guy, and as far as I'm aware he's always been an upstanding person on and off the field. He always made a point of congratulating opposing players on the rare occasion they managed to tackle them, he was supportive of the underclassmen, and active in the community.
This from a kid who grew up in inner city Houston and would have joined a gang at age 7 had his mom not convinced him to QB football instead. The guy's dad has spent his entire adult life in prison. Every step of the way has been nothing but adversity for him. And since before he stepped on a college field, he's faced an endless litany of criticism from clueless wankers, and he's systematically answered every complaint on the field, from his decisionmaking to his passing. So really, I'm betting that he'll do it again, 'cause I haven't seen the guy fail yet.
Seriously, b_thinky, you started off the thread comparing Vince Young to Akili Smith (and later Michael Bishop) and then made a bunch of ridiculous, ill-informed arguments that you didn't bother to back up except with "I played football, I know what I'm talking about." If that's the best you can do, stop trolling and go home.
posted by spiderwire at 2:53 AM on April 30, 2006
I'm aware. I was thinking of someone else. Doesn't change the fact that USC had a solid defense. But thanks for being mature about it. [rolls eyes]
2) I appreciate your support of the home team, but you clearly don't know shit about football.
Again, way to take the high ground. Care to comment specifically? I'm open to being educated. Maybe there's a nice helpful webpage explaining the difference between 'college-style' and 'pro-style' offenses in the way you propose? 'Cause if so, I damn sure can't find any, and I'd like to know.
Also -- home team? I live in Austin right now, but my home team is the Ducks... I don't root for them for obvious reasons. I like Texas, but that's not why I'm defending Vince Young.
3) I played FB all through college, 4 years, 1 as starter, 3 bowl games, 1 BCS victory, finished 3rd in the nation that year. That's just to say, hey, I wasted a lot of time being forced to watch films and all kinds of that shit, studying football, hundreds and thousands of hours. I think I know a little bit about the game.
That's nice.
You know, by all accounts, Vince Young has spent just as much time in the film room and has an even more impressive record throughout his football career. It seems pretty unfair to me that you'd assume that he doesn't know anything about the game when you're clearly no more familiar with him than I am with USC's defensive roster.
5) The one thing we can agree on, because the facts substantiate it, is that Vince Young has a really, really, low IQ. He is completely dumb.
Low IQ != dumb. He's always struck me as a reasonably bright guy. So no, I don't agree. It's also insulting. Regardless, we've discussed that there's no known correlation between intelligence and football ability, cf. Terry Bradshaw.
I don't see where all the hatred for Leinart comes from. He's done nothing wrong. He had a stellar career, better than Vince Young's. Believing in your team is not arrogance.
No, but whining about it after the game like he did is childish. And even if I were to chalk it up to the heat of the moment, he said it again on ESPN last week. That's just disrespectful, and it also shows a lack of maturity to admit defeat and blame the loss on circumstance. Players that don't learn to do that fail. And you know -- all that aside, copping an attitude about being picked 10th in the draft (just my opinion) is also pretty weak.
That said, I don't have any hatred for Leinart, and I do think he'll be successful. But he strikes me sort of the same way Chris Simms did while he was at UT -- like he's grown to expect success rather than working for it. I was always pretty sure that the NFL would smack some sense into Chris damn quick, and it did. He was still a whiner in college. I'm fairly confident that the same thing will happen to Leinart.
ESPN Sportsnation: 52% say Vince Young most likely to be 1st round bust.
I guess I'm not the only one.
Ah yes, the infinite wisdom of internet polls. I wonder how many people polled on ESPN (of all places) thought that USC would win the Rose Bowl?
Look, the point about Leinart puts into relief the reason I'll defend Vince Young, and it doesn't have a lot to do with Texas. I'm not a Texas homer by any means, although they were real fun to watch while Young was in the backfield.
Vince Young is a genuinely nice and bright guy, and as far as I'm aware he's always been an upstanding person on and off the field. He always made a point of congratulating opposing players on the rare occasion they managed to tackle them, he was supportive of the underclassmen, and active in the community.
This from a kid who grew up in inner city Houston and would have joined a gang at age 7 had his mom not convinced him to QB football instead. The guy's dad has spent his entire adult life in prison. Every step of the way has been nothing but adversity for him. And since before he stepped on a college field, he's faced an endless litany of criticism from clueless wankers, and he's systematically answered every complaint on the field, from his decisionmaking to his passing. So really, I'm betting that he'll do it again, 'cause I haven't seen the guy fail yet.
Seriously, b_thinky, you started off the thread comparing Vince Young to Akili Smith (and later Michael Bishop) and then made a bunch of ridiculous, ill-informed arguments that you didn't bother to back up except with "I played football, I know what I'm talking about." If that's the best you can do, stop trolling and go home.
posted by spiderwire at 2:53 AM on April 30, 2006
Hard to believe no one's mentioned Ki-Jana Carter. The problem with drafting Bush at RB lies precisely there--one massive knee injury during training camp or preseason (not exactly unheard of at the position), and there goes your investment.
The Bengals drafted Carter #1 in 1995, and watched in horror as he blew out the knee during camp. Carter was out for the season, and never quite recovered.
So I can't say I blame the Texans for passing on Bush. As for Young, maybe that was a bonehead move; maybe not. We'll see.
posted by arkhangel at 8:25 AM on April 30, 2006
The Bengals drafted Carter #1 in 1995, and watched in horror as he blew out the knee during camp. Carter was out for the season, and never quite recovered.
So I can't say I blame the Texans for passing on Bush. As for Young, maybe that was a bonehead move; maybe not. We'll see.
posted by arkhangel at 8:25 AM on April 30, 2006
b_thinky = Akili Smith in this match with spiderwire
posted by found missing at 8:28 AM on April 30, 2006
posted by found missing at 8:28 AM on April 30, 2006
Hard to believe no one's mentioned Ki-Jana Carter. The problem with drafting Bush at RB lies precisely there--one massive knee injury during training camp or preseason (not exactly unheard of at the position), and there goes your investment.
The Bengals drafted Carter #1 in 1995, and watched in horror as he blew out the knee during camp. Carter was out for the season, and never quite recovered.
So I can't say I blame the Texans for passing on Bush. As for Young, maybe that was a bonehead move; maybe not. We'll see.
posted by arkhangel at 8:25 AM PST on April 30 [!]
That applies to everyone, not just Bush or RBs. Remember Steve Emtman? He was a DL who deserved to go #1 but blew out his knee almost immediately and never produced a lick in the NFL.
posted by b_thinky at 10:44 AM on April 30, 2006
The Bengals drafted Carter #1 in 1995, and watched in horror as he blew out the knee during camp. Carter was out for the season, and never quite recovered.
So I can't say I blame the Texans for passing on Bush. As for Young, maybe that was a bonehead move; maybe not. We'll see.
posted by arkhangel at 8:25 AM PST on April 30 [!]
That applies to everyone, not just Bush or RBs. Remember Steve Emtman? He was a DL who deserved to go #1 but blew out his knee almost immediately and never produced a lick in the NFL.
posted by b_thinky at 10:44 AM on April 30, 2006
Seriously, b_thinky, you started off the thread comparing Vince Young to Akili Smith (and later Michael Bishop) and then made a bunch of ridiculous, ill-informed arguments that you didn't bother to back up except with "I played football, I know what I'm talking about." If that's the best you can do, stop trolling and go home.
posted by spiderwire at 2:53 AM PST on April 30 [!]
I don't see what I've failed to back up.
Texas runs a college style option oriented offense. They wisely "dumbed" down their attack to tailor Young's abilities. The same won't be done in the NFL. This is a fact.
A college style offense is one that is predicated on option, or one of its variations. You seem to think it's when the QB lines up in shotgun formation.
USC's defense was average last year, which the statistics seem to back up. You, however, continue to claim they were legendary.
Winston Justice played offense for USC, not defense. You know the difference, right? You said you were thinking about someone else. Really, like who? Only one player from their defense was drafted in the 1st 3 rounds.
You seem to just have no sense of reality when it comes to Vince Young. You've claimed that he's better than all QBs who present a run threat in the NFL.
"And everyone admits that none are as good as Vince." - spiderwire
Seriously, did you take his wonderlic for him?
posted by b_thinky at 11:00 AM on April 30, 2006
posted by spiderwire at 2:53 AM PST on April 30 [!]
I don't see what I've failed to back up.
Texas runs a college style option oriented offense. They wisely "dumbed" down their attack to tailor Young's abilities. The same won't be done in the NFL. This is a fact.
A college style offense is one that is predicated on option, or one of its variations. You seem to think it's when the QB lines up in shotgun formation.
USC's defense was average last year, which the statistics seem to back up. You, however, continue to claim they were legendary.
Winston Justice played offense for USC, not defense. You know the difference, right? You said you were thinking about someone else. Really, like who? Only one player from their defense was drafted in the 1st 3 rounds.
You seem to just have no sense of reality when it comes to Vince Young. You've claimed that he's better than all QBs who present a run threat in the NFL.
"And everyone admits that none are as good as Vince." - spiderwire
Seriously, did you take his wonderlic for him?
posted by b_thinky at 11:00 AM on April 30, 2006
b_thinky, you should quit while you're far behind.
(FWIW, I defended the merits of this post in metatalk, but I didn't realize what a jerk you'd be to people who disagreed with you. My bad.)
posted by bardic at 1:42 PM on April 30, 2006
(FWIW, I defended the merits of this post in metatalk, but I didn't realize what a jerk you'd be to people who disagreed with you. My bad.)
posted by bardic at 1:42 PM on April 30, 2006
I would like to thanks the Texans for replacing my Bengals as the worst team at drafting.
posted by Jin78 at 3:55 PM on April 30, 2006
posted by Jin78 at 3:55 PM on April 30, 2006
Well, sorry for being a dick then. Sports are one of the few subjects on which you can have a heated debate and not walk away all pissed off and wanting to kill someone or losing respect for the other person. Well, unless you live in Reno or Fresno, because whenever we played those teams their fans threw batteries and shit at us and tried to start fights after the game.
posted by b_thinky at 4:16 PM on April 30, 2006
posted by b_thinky at 4:16 PM on April 30, 2006
I guess I'm in the minority, but as someone who doesn't know or appreciate the intricate details of football (baseball on the other hand...) I'm really enjoying this conversation. b_thinky may be harsh at times, but shit man, that's one of the fun things about sports.*
Seriously, did you take his wonderlic for him?
Heh.
* Red Sox fan talking.
posted by Civil_Disobedient at 4:48 PM on April 30, 2006
Seriously, did you take his wonderlic for him?
Heh.
* Red Sox fan talking.
posted by Civil_Disobedient at 4:48 PM on April 30, 2006
USC : Title may be on line. If Bush is ruled ineligible by either the Pac-10 or the NCAA during the 2004 season, the BCS will discuss amending its rules to allow it to force USC to vacate the national championship it won over Oklahoma. [source]
posted by robot at 7:15 PM on April 30, 2006
posted by robot at 7:15 PM on April 30, 2006
I am a Detroit Lions fan.
With the #9 pick we took an out of control OLB (a position in which we are well stocked).
Did I mention his 5 concussions in 3 years?
Pity the lowly Lions fan...
When you said "an out of control OLB," you meant to say "an out of control, girlfriend-beating OLB," right? Because the clarification is pretty important.
As a Lions fan myself, I hate this pick. I hate this pick both as a fan and also philosphically. Injury concerns are one thing--character issues are another. Character issues in the NFL rarely go away.
From a fan standpoint, why would you take this risk with a first round pick that's going to have so much money tied to it?
From a philosophical standpoint, it makes me sick to see a jerk like this being rewarded in life.
posted by fusinski at 7:53 PM on April 30, 2006
Now that the thread has pretty much wound down, I'll defend the Trail Blazers.
T.D. Strange wrote: Sam Bowie missed 2 full seasons in college playing for Kentucky with shin and ankle injuries. He missed like 200 games in the first 5 years of his NBA career. Anyone should have known he was a huge risk.
True, but the Blazers really needed a center, and they had guard/forward Clyde Drexler, one of the two or three best players in franchise history. So they figured Bowie was worth the risk.
As it turned out, of course, he wasn't, but the decision made sense to me at the time.
posted by diddlegnome at 9:42 PM on April 30, 2006
T.D. Strange wrote: Sam Bowie missed 2 full seasons in college playing for Kentucky with shin and ankle injuries. He missed like 200 games in the first 5 years of his NBA career. Anyone should have known he was a huge risk.
True, but the Blazers really needed a center, and they had guard/forward Clyde Drexler, one of the two or three best players in franchise history. So they figured Bowie was worth the risk.
As it turned out, of course, he wasn't, but the decision made sense to me at the time.
posted by diddlegnome at 9:42 PM on April 30, 2006
Vince Young is not faster than Michael Vick. Not even close. Vick ran a 4.25 in college (he didn't run at the combine, so take a way what you will) and Young ran a 4.58. Not even in the same league.
Spiderwire's questioning Leinart's character reminded me of something (though I'm probably talking to myself at this point). How about Vince's behavior after not winning the Heisman? Wasn't exactly "class."
posted by b_thinky at 11:12 AM on May 1, 2006
Spiderwire's questioning Leinart's character reminded me of something (though I'm probably talking to myself at this point). How about Vince's behavior after not winning the Heisman? Wasn't exactly "class."
posted by b_thinky at 11:12 AM on May 1, 2006
When you said "an out of control OLB," you meant to say "an out of control, girlfriend-beating OLB," right?
Pretty much.
At the very least, he has not had any other off-the-field issues, and even the woman in question considered the whole event to have been blown out of proportion.
posted by WinnipegDragon at 2:11 PM on May 1, 2006
Pretty much.
At the very least, he has not had any other off-the-field issues, and even the woman in question considered the whole event to have been blown out of proportion.
posted by WinnipegDragon at 2:11 PM on May 1, 2006
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Facinating.
posted by delmoi at 12:32 AM on April 29, 2006