New evidence challenges official picture of Kennedy shooting
February 23, 2008 4:50 PM Subscribe
NOT the JFK shooting but Robert Kenedy's One link,yes,but information worth thinking about.
If this is true, then what does it tell us about other information the govt processes?
[...]The official record states that senator Robert F Kennedy, like his brother before him, was killed by a crazed lone gunman. But the assassination of a man who seemed to embody so much hope for a bitterly divided country embroiled in an unpopular war still troubles this nation.
Little about the official explanation of the events at the Ambassador Hotel on June 5 1968 makes sense. Now a new forensic analysis of the only audio recording of the fatal shots has given new weight to a controversial theory that there were in fact two shooters, and that the man convicted of Kennedy's killing — Sirhan Sirhan - did not fire the fatal shots....
Little about the official explanation of the events at the Ambassador Hotel on June 5 1968 makes sense. Now a new forensic analysis of the only audio recording of the fatal shots has given new weight to a controversial theory that there were in fact two shooters, and that the man convicted of Kennedy's killing — Sirhan Sirhan - did not fire the fatal shots....
The recording quality is poor, but it is possible to make out 13 shots over the course of just over 5 seconds ... Also, there are two pairs of double shots that occurred so close together it is inconceivable that Sirhan could have fired them all.
The lack of experts without a book deal quoted in this article make me doubt the certainty of these claims.
posted by Bookhouse at 5:28 PM on February 23, 2008 [1 favorite]
The lack of experts without a book deal quoted in this article make me doubt the certainty of these claims.
posted by Bookhouse at 5:28 PM on February 23, 2008 [1 favorite]
Echoes? The shooting took place in a tile-lined kitchen, no?
posted by John of Michigan at 5:34 PM on February 23, 2008
posted by John of Michigan at 5:34 PM on February 23, 2008
I have disregarded all conspiracy theories, UFO stories, etc....except the ones about JFK. Too obviously NOT a lone gunman.
But this one...out of the blue (pun, sorry)...I'll have to wait this one out.
posted by kozad at 5:51 PM on February 23, 2008
But this one...out of the blue (pun, sorry)...I'll have to wait this one out.
posted by kozad at 5:51 PM on February 23, 2008
President Shot 129 Times from 43 Different Angles
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 5:52 PM on February 23, 2008 [5 favorites]
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 5:52 PM on February 23, 2008 [5 favorites]
The House Select Committee on Assassinations found a "probable conspiracy" in the assassination of JFK, though it also concluded that Oswald fired all he shots.
John Hinckley, Sr. (the father of Reagan's would-be assassin) headed an oil company and was a significant contributor to HW Bush's 1980 campaign for president against Reagan. Scott Hinckley, brother of Hinckley, Jr was scheduled to have dinner with Neil Bush (W's brother) in Denver the night Reagan was shot. (wikipedia has supporting links). Raise your hand if you had heard all of this at the time of the assassination.
What we know of these events are the stories that have been woven into history. We all knew about Hinckley's obsession with Jodie Foster and Taxi Driver, why didn't we know about these Bush family connections? Because that isn't the story. The stories we have for all of these events are identical in that the stories have simple, satisfying endings.
But that's all they are - stories written after the fact to encapsulate an event in history. The stories may very well be true, I have no evidence that they aren't. But they are just stories nonetheless. All stories have a narrative, and all narratives are worth deconstructing.
Is there more to RFK's assassination? Probably, but we'll never know. Too much time has gone by, the evidence is gone, memories have faded, and all we left left are the stories we've been told, and questions that can never be answered.
posted by Pastabagel at 5:53 PM on February 23, 2008 [6 favorites]
John Hinckley, Sr. (the father of Reagan's would-be assassin) headed an oil company and was a significant contributor to HW Bush's 1980 campaign for president against Reagan. Scott Hinckley, brother of Hinckley, Jr was scheduled to have dinner with Neil Bush (W's brother) in Denver the night Reagan was shot. (wikipedia has supporting links). Raise your hand if you had heard all of this at the time of the assassination.
What we know of these events are the stories that have been woven into history. We all knew about Hinckley's obsession with Jodie Foster and Taxi Driver, why didn't we know about these Bush family connections? Because that isn't the story. The stories we have for all of these events are identical in that the stories have simple, satisfying endings.
But that's all they are - stories written after the fact to encapsulate an event in history. The stories may very well be true, I have no evidence that they aren't. But they are just stories nonetheless. All stories have a narrative, and all narratives are worth deconstructing.
Is there more to RFK's assassination? Probably, but we'll never know. Too much time has gone by, the evidence is gone, memories have faded, and all we left left are the stories we've been told, and questions that can never be answered.
posted by Pastabagel at 5:53 PM on February 23, 2008 [6 favorites]
This is probably very bad news for Kerry Obama.
posted by puke & cry at 6:02 PM on February 23, 2008 [2 favorites]
posted by puke & cry at 6:02 PM on February 23, 2008 [2 favorites]
I'd like to know why all those heads of military and industry were housed somewhere entirely elsewhere on September 11th, 2001. To be fair, I think that answer would do a lot more to help solve the world's current set of problems, than knowing why J. Edgar Hoover, the Mafia and/or the Teamsters had RFK shot.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 6:02 PM on February 23, 2008
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 6:02 PM on February 23, 2008
it's like you're all waiting for something to happen so you can all tell us how right you've been about what rotten times we live in and how much it sucks
posted by pyramid termite at 6:04 PM on February 23, 2008 [9 favorites]
posted by pyramid termite at 6:04 PM on February 23, 2008 [9 favorites]
I'd like to know why all those heads of military and industry were housed somewhere entirely elsewhere on September 11th, 2001. To be fair, I think that answer would do a lot more to help solve the world's current set of problems, than knowing why J. Edgar Hoover, the Mafia and/or the Teamsters had RFK shot.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 9:02 PM on February 23
I'm not sure if you're kidding, but Cheney was in the White House, and Rumsfeld was in the Pentagon that morning. Rumsfeld was having breakfast in a private Pentagon dining room with a handful of Congressmen, in fact.
posted by Pastabagel at 6:10 PM on February 23, 2008
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 9:02 PM on February 23
I'm not sure if you're kidding, but Cheney was in the White House, and Rumsfeld was in the Pentagon that morning. Rumsfeld was having breakfast in a private Pentagon dining room with a handful of Congressmen, in fact.
posted by Pastabagel at 6:10 PM on February 23, 2008
I can't imagine anyone believing the kind of enormous conspiracy the JFK or RFK assassinations would have required could be kept secret.
Just look at how the Watergate conspiracy fell apart. With so many people involved, it was clear one of them would crack and let the world know what happened. And that is just what happened.
Or was it really just one pissed-off bureaucrat who tipped off some eager reporters? And if he hadn't been pissed-off, it would have worked perfectly?
Ooooh. That's different. Never mind.
posted by hexatron at 6:17 PM on February 23, 2008 [2 favorites]
Just look at how the Watergate conspiracy fell apart. With so many people involved, it was clear one of them would crack and let the world know what happened. And that is just what happened.
Or was it really just one pissed-off bureaucrat who tipped off some eager reporters? And if he hadn't been pissed-off, it would have worked perfectly?
Ooooh. That's different. Never mind.
posted by hexatron at 6:17 PM on February 23, 2008 [2 favorites]
I'm not sure if you're kidding
Conspiracy theories about JFK, RFK and 9/11 are for crazy people. It's all just coincidences.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 6:29 PM on February 23, 2008
Conspiracy theories about JFK, RFK and 9/11 are for crazy people. It's all just coincidences.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 6:29 PM on February 23, 2008
How would the presence of a second shooter elude the notice of a kitchen staff, a couple of journalists, two athletes, and Kennedy's people? I can imagine things being very confusing, but one would expect at least one person would have caught a glimpse of the other shooter. Especially considering that this occurred within an enclosed space.
Unless it was the Predator, I suppose. But Kennedy wasn't armed, so what's the deal?
posted by Tullius at 6:39 PM on February 23, 2008
Unless it was the Predator, I suppose. But Kennedy wasn't armed, so what's the deal?
posted by Tullius at 6:39 PM on February 23, 2008
Hexatron, how do you explain the surplus of bullets in the RFK case? I mean, it's one thing to believe in the magic bullet that killed JFK, but it's something else to believe that fourteen bullets emerged from an eight-shooter.
posted by five fresh fish at 6:40 PM on February 23, 2008
posted by five fresh fish at 6:40 PM on February 23, 2008
My Obama remark comes from (a) that it seems RFK was shot in the back by one of his entourage; (b) the Secret Service put a stop to weapons screening at a recent Obama event. What with the rumours already of Obama being dead man walking should he be elected, and his being compared to JFK already... well, I wouldn't want to be in his shoes.
posted by five fresh fish at 6:50 PM on February 23, 2008 [2 favorites]
posted by five fresh fish at 6:50 PM on February 23, 2008 [2 favorites]
This story brought to you by the Reynolds Aluminum Co.
posted by mr_crash_davis at 7:02 PM on February 23, 2008 [3 favorites]
posted by mr_crash_davis at 7:02 PM on February 23, 2008 [3 favorites]
Here's the FBI file. See page 8 for a rundown on all 8 bullets fired by Sirhan, all accounted for, all determined by ballistics to be fired from his gun "and no other gun in the world". Other experts analyzing the Pruszynski tape have discerned only 7 or 8 shots, which matches the capacity of Sirhan's gun and the FBI list of shots. There were not "14 bullets found lodged around the room and in the victims". You only get to 13 or 14 if you count some bullets twice, ie., once when they passed through a person or clothing, and again when they lodged in a wall or ceiling.
posted by beagle at 7:09 PM on February 23, 2008 [5 favorites]
posted by beagle at 7:09 PM on February 23, 2008 [5 favorites]
My guess? Avalanche.
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 7:15 PM on February 23, 2008 [5 favorites]
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 7:15 PM on February 23, 2008 [5 favorites]
I'm trying to think of how many leaders from the "right" were assassinated in the 60's.
Can't seem to think of any, it must be because we are conservatives at heart.
posted by Max Power at 7:27 PM on February 23, 2008
Can't seem to think of any, it must be because we are conservatives at heart.
posted by Max Power at 7:27 PM on February 23, 2008
About 12 years ago, I read a very interesting book about JFK's assassination, called Mob Lawyer.
It was written by a man who was a lawyer for Jimmy Hoffa, and he got pretty thoroughly mixed up in the Mob. He carefully documented what he saw and what he heard. He didn't see any direct proof, but there was a lot of circumstantial evidence that made it look pretty darn likely that the Mob offed Kennedy. They really hated both him and his brother, who had been made Attorney General and was making their lives pretty difficult.
The book didn't deal with RFK's assassination, but given the level of hatred the Mob had for him, it wouldn't surprise me at all if they went after him as soon as it looked like he might win the election.
Also, from what that lawyer saw, there's an excellent chance that they disappeared Hoffa as well.
It's a good book. If you can scare up a copy, it's worth reading.
posted by Malor at 7:33 PM on February 23, 2008
It was written by a man who was a lawyer for Jimmy Hoffa, and he got pretty thoroughly mixed up in the Mob. He carefully documented what he saw and what he heard. He didn't see any direct proof, but there was a lot of circumstantial evidence that made it look pretty darn likely that the Mob offed Kennedy. They really hated both him and his brother, who had been made Attorney General and was making their lives pretty difficult.
The book didn't deal with RFK's assassination, but given the level of hatred the Mob had for him, it wouldn't surprise me at all if they went after him as soon as it looked like he might win the election.
Also, from what that lawyer saw, there's an excellent chance that they disappeared Hoffa as well.
It's a good book. If you can scare up a copy, it's worth reading.
posted by Malor at 7:33 PM on February 23, 2008
Max Power: There's always George Wallace. (Are we including attempts, or does the assassination hafta be successful to count?)
posted by BitterOldPunk at 7:36 PM on February 23, 2008
posted by BitterOldPunk at 7:36 PM on February 23, 2008
I wonder how they keep Ted Kennedy to keep his mouth shot?
posted by semmi at 7:38 PM on February 23, 2008
posted by semmi at 7:38 PM on February 23, 2008
I went to a Disney party at the Ambassador once (it's since been demolished) and after a bunch of martinis my friend and I decided to sneak into the kitchen to find the spot where Kennedy was shot. It was really really surreal wandering around the kitchen searching for it. Especially because at first the caterers in the kitchen had no idea what/who we were talking about. I remember they were kinda like, "Why are these drunk people standing in my way babbling about shooting someone? And why are they talking about President Kennedy?" Eventually we asked someone who was with the hotel and actually knew what we were asking, though.
Anyhow, I'm really glad we thought to do that. I was surprised by how intense it felt to stand there and think about Bobby Kennedy being assassinated right at that exact spot. I'll never forget that. I was really sad when they finally tore that building down.
posted by miss lynnster at 7:46 PM on February 23, 2008 [3 favorites]
Anyhow, I'm really glad we thought to do that. I was surprised by how intense it felt to stand there and think about Bobby Kennedy being assassinated right at that exact spot. I'll never forget that. I was really sad when they finally tore that building down.
posted by miss lynnster at 7:46 PM on February 23, 2008 [3 favorites]
The lawyer was named Frank Ragano. They also did a Frontline thing on it I believe.
posted by timsteil at 8:06 PM on February 23, 2008
posted by timsteil at 8:06 PM on February 23, 2008
"Only then will the world know that 9/11 was caused by neocon Jews riding on missiles and waving their cowboy hats."
ok then, I learned something here...there ARE Jewish cowboys... but I should have figured that out with Gene Wilder in Blazing Saddles.., eh?
posted by HuronBob at 8:17 PM on February 23, 2008
ok then, I learned something here...there ARE Jewish cowboys... but I should have figured that out with Gene Wilder in Blazing Saddles.., eh?
posted by HuronBob at 8:17 PM on February 23, 2008
Not to stray to far from the subject at hand, I too find the Warren Report so much horse shit, and then Bobby and MLK fit some sinister pattern. But the silencing of all the myrid witnesses is what bothers me. As was mentioned above, how do you keep that many people quiet for that long? That Deep Throat remainded a mystery so long is astounding.
For me, James Ellroy's The Cold Six Thousand is the best read on the Kennedy-Kennedy-King assassinations.
And re Obama, anyone else offended by this AP headline?
Many Blacks Worry About Obama's Safety. What, only Blacks?
But if W. Bush, the most hated man in inter-galactic history, has made it thus far, Obama should be fine. Those new-fangled Secret Service boys are bad ass. See how quickly they took this gal out today? Plus the vid has a sweet soundtrack.
posted by dawson at 8:18 PM on February 23, 2008 [1 favorite]
For me, James Ellroy's The Cold Six Thousand is the best read on the Kennedy-Kennedy-King assassinations.
And re Obama, anyone else offended by this AP headline?
Many Blacks Worry About Obama's Safety. What, only Blacks?
But if W. Bush, the most hated man in inter-galactic history, has made it thus far, Obama should be fine. Those new-fangled Secret Service boys are bad ass. See how quickly they took this gal out today? Plus the vid has a sweet soundtrack.
posted by dawson at 8:18 PM on February 23, 2008 [1 favorite]
Many Blacks Worry About Obama's Safety. What, only Blacks?
But if W. Bush, the most hated man in inter-galactic history, has made it thus far, Obama should be fine. Those new-fangled Secret Service boys are bad ass. See how quickly they took this gal out today? Plus the vid has a sweet soundtrack.
posted by dawson at 11:18 PM on February 23 [+] [!]
Bush doesn't wander around in large crowds. His audiences are completely screened most days. And there's an argument to be made that the more popular a figure, the bigger the target.
posted by etaoin at 8:27 PM on February 23, 2008 [2 favorites]
But if W. Bush, the most hated man in inter-galactic history, has made it thus far, Obama should be fine. Those new-fangled Secret Service boys are bad ass. See how quickly they took this gal out today? Plus the vid has a sweet soundtrack.
posted by dawson at 11:18 PM on February 23 [+] [!]
Bush doesn't wander around in large crowds. His audiences are completely screened most days. And there's an argument to be made that the more popular a figure, the bigger the target.
posted by etaoin at 8:27 PM on February 23, 2008 [2 favorites]
Just a note of caution on Dawson's link. Turn your sound down. I just restarted my heart after the dog lost its grip on the ceiling and landed on my chest.
posted by bigskyguy at 8:27 PM on February 23, 2008
posted by bigskyguy at 8:27 PM on February 23, 2008
And yes, that's a wretched headline. I have a sick feeling in my stomach every time I see Obama in a crowd of adoring fans. He is such an obvious target, it scares me.
posted by etaoin at 8:28 PM on February 23, 2008 [1 favorite]
posted by etaoin at 8:28 PM on February 23, 2008 [1 favorite]
About 12 years ago, I read a very interesting book about JFK's assassination, called Mob Lawyer.
All the mobsters who have turned State's Evidence over the years, and not one ever thought to mention the massive twin conspiracies to kill a President and his brother?
No.
Also, they can kill two of the world's most prominent and powerful men, but a no-name lawyer can write a book about it, go on tv about it, and HE'S still alive??
Sorry, no.
posted by drjimmy11 at 8:37 PM on February 23, 2008
All the mobsters who have turned State's Evidence over the years, and not one ever thought to mention the massive twin conspiracies to kill a President and his brother?
No.
Also, they can kill two of the world's most prominent and powerful men, but a no-name lawyer can write a book about it, go on tv about it, and HE'S still alive??
Sorry, no.
posted by drjimmy11 at 8:37 PM on February 23, 2008
For me, James Ellroy's The Cold Six Thousand is the best read on the Kennedy-Kennedy-King assassinations.
It's an awesome book, and a great illustration of why the conspiracy mindset is so seductive. At its heart, webs of conspiracy gives a purpose, and therefore drama, to history. Of course, the book is also a work of fiction.
posted by Bookhouse at 8:56 PM on February 23, 2008 [1 favorite]
It's an awesome book, and a great illustration of why the conspiracy mindset is so seductive. At its heart, webs of conspiracy gives a purpose, and therefore drama, to history. Of course, the book is also a work of fiction.
posted by Bookhouse at 8:56 PM on February 23, 2008 [1 favorite]
True, Ellroy's book is fiction. But sometimes it seems fiction can be more 'truthful' than truth, i.e. non-fiction. Wiesel, Solzhenitsyn, Václav Havel, Ralph Ellison, andYu Hua are some examples.
and sorry about that sound volume in the video I linked, I already had my speakers down rather low
posted by dawson at 9:12 PM on February 23, 2008
and sorry about that sound volume in the video I linked, I already had my speakers down rather low
posted by dawson at 9:12 PM on February 23, 2008
Anyone who believes the official line on any of these stories is a fool. Governments lie to their people repeatedly. History is replete with real conspiracies that were successful, and kept relatively secret from the public. The key to keeping them secret was to obfuscate the real evidence with piles upon piles of bogus stories and fake evidence, and using the media to mock and castigate anyone not toeing the party line. Anyone who studies history, particularly modern history, sees this pattern emerge time after time. It does not require the Illuminati, Jewish world domination, aliens, Sasquatch or the CIA. All it requires is a bunch of unscrupulous criminal-minded thugs operating outside of public scrutiny who have something to gain.
Two examples of so-called crazy paranoid conspiracy theories that have turned out to be completely true are those concerning the strike on the USS Liberty and the Gulf of Tonkin incident as 'false flag' to escalate war. Naturally this does not prove that all such wild conspiracy theories are true, but it does establish a strong precedent of large scale monstrous crimes committed in the face of public scrutiny under a blanket of bald-faced lies.
Again, history is replete with real conspiracies, sometimes wild beyond belief. Just read an objective history book. Only a generation has to pass before their revelation to the public is greeted with 'meh' instead of calls for public executions. This is the way of things.
posted by Henry C. Mabuse at 9:22 PM on February 23, 2008 [7 favorites]
Two examples of so-called crazy paranoid conspiracy theories that have turned out to be completely true are those concerning the strike on the USS Liberty and the Gulf of Tonkin incident as 'false flag' to escalate war. Naturally this does not prove that all such wild conspiracy theories are true, but it does establish a strong precedent of large scale monstrous crimes committed in the face of public scrutiny under a blanket of bald-faced lies.
Again, history is replete with real conspiracies, sometimes wild beyond belief. Just read an objective history book. Only a generation has to pass before their revelation to the public is greeted with 'meh' instead of calls for public executions. This is the way of things.
posted by Henry C. Mabuse at 9:22 PM on February 23, 2008 [7 favorites]
Gee, I can't decide which I prefer, an insane, out of control government secretly fucking up the world with horrible, Machiavellian machinations that imprison, kill and impoverish millions, or an insane, out of control government fucking up the world with horrible, Machiavellian machinations that imprison, kill and impoverish millions in plain sight.
Conspiracy theories are fucking irrelevant.
posted by nanojath at 9:37 PM on February 23, 2008 [5 favorites]
Conspiracy theories are fucking irrelevant.
posted by nanojath at 9:37 PM on February 23, 2008 [5 favorites]
Anyone who believes the conspiracy line on any of these stories is a fool.
posted by johngumbo at 9:47 PM on February 23, 2008
posted by johngumbo at 9:47 PM on February 23, 2008
Gee, I can't decide which I prefer, an insane, out of control government secretly fucking up the world with horrible, Machiavellian machinations that imprison, kill and impoverish millions, or an insane, out of control government fucking up the world with horrible, Machiavellian machinations that imprison, kill and impoverish millions in plain sight.
Conspiracy theories are fucking irrelevant.
THANK YOU.
posted by regicide is good for you at 11:28 PM on February 23, 2008
Conspiracy theories are fucking irrelevant.
THANK YOU.
posted by regicide is good for you at 11:28 PM on February 23, 2008
This story brought to you by the Reynolds Aluminum Co.
It's a massive conspiracy of alchemists making tin foil hats out of aluminum!
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 12:23 AM on February 24, 2008
It's a massive conspiracy of alchemists making tin foil hats out of aluminum!
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 12:23 AM on February 24, 2008
Anyone who believes the conspiracy line on any of these stories is a fool.
Insult is no substitute for reasoning, you know.
In particular, the government publicly made every attempt it could to prevent 9/11 from being investigated, and the official story contradicts itself on numerous points. While I personally believe that 9/11 probably happened more or less as reported to us, I also know that I have not been shown anywhere near enough evidence to prove or disprove that claim, and I also strongly suspect that at least part of the story is made up (otherwise, why go to all the effort to try to suppress the investigation?)
I don't see a need for some science-fictional conspiracy; what's so implausible about, "We fucked up, now we need to cover it up"?
As several posters have pointed out, verified, historically accepted conspiracies have happened over and over again in the past and have changed the course of history. In fact, you'd be hard-pressed to find ANY war that the US has been involved in in the 20th century that hasn't involved massive cover-ups and elected officials conspiring to defraud the public; and it seems only to have deteriorated over time. Why should this war be different?
posted by lupus_yonderboy at 2:20 AM on February 24, 2008 [1 favorite]
Insult is no substitute for reasoning, you know.
In particular, the government publicly made every attempt it could to prevent 9/11 from being investigated, and the official story contradicts itself on numerous points. While I personally believe that 9/11 probably happened more or less as reported to us, I also know that I have not been shown anywhere near enough evidence to prove or disprove that claim, and I also strongly suspect that at least part of the story is made up (otherwise, why go to all the effort to try to suppress the investigation?)
I don't see a need for some science-fictional conspiracy; what's so implausible about, "We fucked up, now we need to cover it up"?
As several posters have pointed out, verified, historically accepted conspiracies have happened over and over again in the past and have changed the course of history. In fact, you'd be hard-pressed to find ANY war that the US has been involved in in the 20th century that hasn't involved massive cover-ups and elected officials conspiring to defraud the public; and it seems only to have deteriorated over time. Why should this war be different?
posted by lupus_yonderboy at 2:20 AM on February 24, 2008 [1 favorite]
The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. -Edward Bernays, Propaganda 1928
We have made the Reich by propaganda.-Joseph Goebbels
See in my line of work you got to keep repeating things over and over and over again for the truth to sink in, to kind of catapult the propaganda.-George W. Bush
The function of propaganda is not to tell us what to think but to sink us deeper in what we already thoughtlessly believe: in this case, that in the absence of central control we get a dog-eat-dog universe full of shocking crimes. That's what we have now.-Ran Prieur
In their propaganda today's dictators rely for the most part on repetition, suppression and rationalization - the repetition of catchwords which they wish to be accepted as true, the suppression of facts which they wish to be ignored, the arousal and rationalization of passions which may be used in the interests of the Party or the State. -Aldous Huxley
The greatest challenge facing mankind is the challenge of distinguishing reality from fantasy, truth from propaganda.-Michael Crichton
Through clever and constant application of propaganda people can be made to see paradise as hell, and also the other way around, to consider the most wretched sort of life as paradise.-Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, 1923
We live together, you and I, in a dark time when all official history is propaganda.-John Taylor Gatto
posted by Enron Hubbard at 5:58 AM on February 24, 2008 [4 favorites]
We have made the Reich by propaganda.-Joseph Goebbels
See in my line of work you got to keep repeating things over and over and over again for the truth to sink in, to kind of catapult the propaganda.-George W. Bush
The function of propaganda is not to tell us what to think but to sink us deeper in what we already thoughtlessly believe: in this case, that in the absence of central control we get a dog-eat-dog universe full of shocking crimes. That's what we have now.-Ran Prieur
In their propaganda today's dictators rely for the most part on repetition, suppression and rationalization - the repetition of catchwords which they wish to be accepted as true, the suppression of facts which they wish to be ignored, the arousal and rationalization of passions which may be used in the interests of the Party or the State. -Aldous Huxley
The greatest challenge facing mankind is the challenge of distinguishing reality from fantasy, truth from propaganda.-Michael Crichton
Through clever and constant application of propaganda people can be made to see paradise as hell, and also the other way around, to consider the most wretched sort of life as paradise.-Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, 1923
We live together, you and I, in a dark time when all official history is propaganda.-John Taylor Gatto
posted by Enron Hubbard at 5:58 AM on February 24, 2008 [4 favorites]
what's so implausible about, "We fucked up, now we need to cover it up"?
Just this: it would take numerous people, in each instance of allegedly covered-up conspiracy, to keep the secret. In the case of 9/11, it would take thousands of people to keep some of the secrets necessary to some of the theories (like, "they told all the Jews to stay home that day.") Now, ususally, three bank robbers who acted in concert can't keep it secret. Basically, somebody, somewhere cracks, because not everybody was trained as a Green Beret, or something. That's what's implausible -- nobody, ever, in any of these "conspiracies", has ever stepped forward, or even just dropped a hint, to the effect that, "you know what, I participated in that conspiracy, here's how we planned it, here's how we did it, I can name names."
you'd be hard-pressed to find ANY war that the US has been involved in in the 20th century that hasn't involved massive cover-ups and elected officials conspiring to defraud the public
I'm not sure what all you're referring to, but to the extent that's arguably correct (for example, the Tonkin Bay resolution), it proves my point above. Sooner or later, somebody cracked; that's how we know about those conspiracies, and it's inevitable that that happens. No cracks, after 40 years, in the JFK-RFK conspiracies, means: no conspiracy.
posted by beagle at 6:02 AM on February 24, 2008 [1 favorite]
Just this: it would take numerous people, in each instance of allegedly covered-up conspiracy, to keep the secret. In the case of 9/11, it would take thousands of people to keep some of the secrets necessary to some of the theories (like, "they told all the Jews to stay home that day.") Now, ususally, three bank robbers who acted in concert can't keep it secret. Basically, somebody, somewhere cracks, because not everybody was trained as a Green Beret, or something. That's what's implausible -- nobody, ever, in any of these "conspiracies", has ever stepped forward, or even just dropped a hint, to the effect that, "you know what, I participated in that conspiracy, here's how we planned it, here's how we did it, I can name names."
you'd be hard-pressed to find ANY war that the US has been involved in in the 20th century that hasn't involved massive cover-ups and elected officials conspiring to defraud the public
I'm not sure what all you're referring to, but to the extent that's arguably correct (for example, the Tonkin Bay resolution), it proves my point above. Sooner or later, somebody cracked; that's how we know about those conspiracies, and it's inevitable that that happens. No cracks, after 40 years, in the JFK-RFK conspiracies, means: no conspiracy.
posted by beagle at 6:02 AM on February 24, 2008 [1 favorite]
When Brian Eno first visited Russia, in 1986, he made friends with Sacha, a musician whose father had been Brezhnev's personal doctor: "One day we were talking about life during "the period of stagnation" — the Brezhnev era. "It must have been strange being so completely immersed in propaganda," I said. "Ah, but there is the difference. We knew it was propaganda," replied Sacha. "That is the difference. Russian propaganda was so obvious that most Russians were able to ignore it. They took it for granted that the government operated in its own interests and any message coming from it was probably slanted — and they discounted it."
On Propaganda
posted by nevercalm at 6:25 AM on February 24, 2008 [3 favorites]
On Propaganda
posted by nevercalm at 6:25 AM on February 24, 2008 [3 favorites]
We live together, you and I, in a dark time when all official history is propaganda.
and unofficial attempts to tell the "truth" and reveal the "conspiracies" have no ulterior motives at all, do they? - no, the people who insist on "revealing" these things have no vision of what kind of government they'd like to have or who they'd like to have running it, do they? - i suppose that it's just coincidence that the libertarian and extreme conservative right are spreading the tale that 911 was an inside job AND they want to do away with our "huge liberal" government - because one could never do that by revealing it as traitorous, corrupt and utterly ruthless
after all, when hitler was running for office, it wasn't the official history of world war 1 that got him elected, was it? - no it was his unofficial interpretation of it, wasn't it? - some kind of "conspiracy", wasn't it?
you might want to wonder about the motives behind some of the tales we hear these days - because some of them are nothing but propaganda, too
posted by pyramid termite at 6:34 AM on February 24, 2008
and unofficial attempts to tell the "truth" and reveal the "conspiracies" have no ulterior motives at all, do they? - no, the people who insist on "revealing" these things have no vision of what kind of government they'd like to have or who they'd like to have running it, do they? - i suppose that it's just coincidence that the libertarian and extreme conservative right are spreading the tale that 911 was an inside job AND they want to do away with our "huge liberal" government - because one could never do that by revealing it as traitorous, corrupt and utterly ruthless
after all, when hitler was running for office, it wasn't the official history of world war 1 that got him elected, was it? - no it was his unofficial interpretation of it, wasn't it? - some kind of "conspiracy", wasn't it?
you might want to wonder about the motives behind some of the tales we hear these days - because some of them are nothing but propaganda, too
posted by pyramid termite at 6:34 AM on February 24, 2008
The greatest challenge facing mankind is the challenge of distinguishing reality from fantasy, truth from propaganda.-Michael Crichton
You lost me there, pal - Side of Starbucks Venti Hot Cup.
posted by y2karl at 6:39 AM on February 24, 2008
You lost me there, pal - Side of Starbucks Venti Hot Cup.
posted by y2karl at 6:39 AM on February 24, 2008
I don't know about the conspiracies but, to quote Andrew Young, "If either Martin King or Bobby Kennedy had survivied the Sixties America would be a very different place today."
No Nixon? A worse right wing backlash than the Reagan/Dubya horrors?
posted by aiq at 7:16 AM on February 24, 2008
No Nixon? A worse right wing backlash than the Reagan/Dubya horrors?
posted by aiq at 7:16 AM on February 24, 2008
I am reading the new history of the CIA (Legacy of Ashes by Tim Weiner) and no longer discount conspiracy theories out of hand no matter how unlikely they may seem…
posted by ALvard at 8:16 AM on February 24, 2008 [2 favorites]
posted by ALvard at 8:16 AM on February 24, 2008 [2 favorites]
But if W. Bush, the most hated man in inter-galactic history, has made it thus far, Obama should be fine. Those new-fangled Secret Service boys are bad ass.
Bad ass enough that at a recent Obamapalooza, they told security to quit checking for weapons. WTF?!
posted by five fresh fish at 10:17 AM on February 24, 2008
Bad ass enough that at a recent Obamapalooza, they told security to quit checking for weapons. WTF?!
posted by five fresh fish at 10:17 AM on February 24, 2008
Bad ass enough that at a recent Obamapalooza, they told security to quit checking for weapons. WTF?!
Explain why this is so awful. You can't think that every person to come within shooting distance of any canidate at all times is screened for weapons using a metal detector.
Unless someone can describe exactly why this type of screening is needed for all the people attending this event, and can show that this is actually a horrible breach of security and not a standard procedure, it is a nonstory.
posted by Bookhouse at 1:25 PM on February 24, 2008
Explain why this is so awful. You can't think that every person to come within shooting distance of any canidate at all times is screened for weapons using a metal detector.
Unless someone can describe exactly why this type of screening is needed for all the people attending this event, and can show that this is actually a horrible breach of security and not a standard procedure, it is a nonstory.
posted by Bookhouse at 1:25 PM on February 24, 2008
Basically, somebody, somewhere cracks, because not everybody was trained as a Green Beret, or something. That's what's implausible -- nobody, ever, in any of these "conspiracies", has ever stepped forward, or even just dropped a hint, to the effect that, "you know what, I participated in that conspiracy, here's how we planned it, here's how we did it, I can name names."
So either someone "cracks" or there is no conspiracy? lol, wut?
I'd place a healthy wager that there are numerous conspiracies going on, right now, at the highest levels of the US government. On occasion people get caught. Look at Jack Abramoff, Rick Renzi, Brent Wilkes, Duke Cunningham, Bob Ney, Scooter Libby, etc. But do you really think that the DoJ (let alone this DoJ) is catching all of the conspiracies that are going on? Hell, this DoJ is facilitating conspiracies right now.
No, UFOs didn't use directed energy weapons to blow up the World Trade Center. That still doesn't mean the government's official account is correct.
posted by ryoshu at 1:35 PM on February 24, 2008
So either someone "cracks" or there is no conspiracy? lol, wut?
I'd place a healthy wager that there are numerous conspiracies going on, right now, at the highest levels of the US government. On occasion people get caught. Look at Jack Abramoff, Rick Renzi, Brent Wilkes, Duke Cunningham, Bob Ney, Scooter Libby, etc. But do you really think that the DoJ (let alone this DoJ) is catching all of the conspiracies that are going on? Hell, this DoJ is facilitating conspiracies right now.
No, UFOs didn't use directed energy weapons to blow up the World Trade Center. That still doesn't mean the government's official account is correct.
posted by ryoshu at 1:35 PM on February 24, 2008
I read a short story several decades ago with the premise that the Kennedy assassinations were carried out by time travellers from a future where America was an opporessive dictatorship led by future Kennedys. They couldn't get near their own leaders, so they figured out a way to kill their grandparents.
It was a really neat story. I think it was published in Asimov's, sometime in the '80s. I have no idea who authored it or what the title might have been. I don't suppose anybody here remembers this story too and can tell me where to find it?
posted by joannemerriam at 2:06 PM on February 24, 2008
It was a really neat story. I think it was published in Asimov's, sometime in the '80s. I have no idea who authored it or what the title might have been. I don't suppose anybody here remembers this story too and can tell me where to find it?
posted by joannemerriam at 2:06 PM on February 24, 2008
Lessee... Chief of Police thinks it's a big deal; Bookhouse thinks it's not a big deal; Secret Service has failed to protect Presidents from assassination attempts several times in my lifetime.
I think I'm gonna have to go with the CoP's opinion on this one.
posted by five fresh fish at 2:40 PM on February 24, 2008
I think I'm gonna have to go with the CoP's opinion on this one.
posted by five fresh fish at 2:40 PM on February 24, 2008
Are you telling me the Kennedys were killed by Terminators?
posted by kirkaracha at 3:33 PM on February 24, 2008
posted by kirkaracha at 3:33 PM on February 24, 2008
I don't suppose anybody here remembers this story too and can tell me where to find it?
Try that one here.
posted by nanojath at 3:46 PM on February 24, 2008
Try that one here.
posted by nanojath at 3:46 PM on February 24, 2008
That Great Mother of all assassination conspiracy theories, Mae Brussell, lays out her view of what politically driven assassination conspiracies have in common in an undated interview with Tom Davis(?), focusing on the assassination of John Lennon.
Supposedly,
On May 29, 1968 Mae confronted Rose Kennedy at the Monterey Peninsula Airport and handed her what she said was a poem, but actually a note telling her Robert Kennedy would soon be assassinated. A week later Senator Kennedy was shot to death at The Ambassador Hotel in Los Angeles.
and
Mae spent much of her March 29, 1981 evening broadcast listing reasons she believed the Reagan White House were at war with one another and asked who will kill off their team members first. The following morning President Reagan was shot in Washington D.C.
posted by jamjam at 5:00 PM on February 24, 2008
Supposedly,
On May 29, 1968 Mae confronted Rose Kennedy at the Monterey Peninsula Airport and handed her what she said was a poem, but actually a note telling her Robert Kennedy would soon be assassinated. A week later Senator Kennedy was shot to death at The Ambassador Hotel in Los Angeles.
and
Mae spent much of her March 29, 1981 evening broadcast listing reasons she believed the Reagan White House were at war with one another and asked who will kill off their team members first. The following morning President Reagan was shot in Washington D.C.
posted by jamjam at 5:00 PM on February 24, 2008
Lessee... Chief of Police thinks it's a big deal; Bookhouse thinks it's not a big deal; Secret Service has failed to protect Presidents from assassination attempts several times in my lifetime.
I never said it wasn't a big deal; I'm saying I don't understand why it is. It's not my opinion, it's the Secret Service's opinion, versus that the Chief of Police. Maybe they were just real assholes to the Dallas cops and this is how he's paying them back. Maybe it was a horrible gaffe or maybe it was the first step in an evil global plot, foiled at the last minute by the gutsy men of Dallas's Finest.
I'm not saying that I know what happened, I'm saying that without more details than I've seen in any stories that I've read, I'm going to avoid all-caps acronyms of shock.
posted by Bookhouse at 7:53 PM on February 24, 2008
I never said it wasn't a big deal; I'm saying I don't understand why it is. It's not my opinion, it's the Secret Service's opinion, versus that the Chief of Police. Maybe they were just real assholes to the Dallas cops and this is how he's paying them back. Maybe it was a horrible gaffe or maybe it was the first step in an evil global plot, foiled at the last minute by the gutsy men of Dallas's Finest.
I'm not saying that I know what happened, I'm saying that without more details than I've seen in any stories that I've read, I'm going to avoid all-caps acronyms of shock.
posted by Bookhouse at 7:53 PM on February 24, 2008
Explain why this is so awful. You can't think that every person to come within shooting distance of any canidate at all times is screened for weapons using a metal detector.
When I was going to college, our then veep - George H W Bush - visited the campus. They searched every room in the dorm next to the building where Bush would appear for weapons.
Based on history, it was more likely that Bush would shoot Alexander Hamilton.
posted by Kid Charlemagne at 9:34 PM on February 24, 2008
When I was going to college, our then veep - George H W Bush - visited the campus. They searched every room in the dorm next to the building where Bush would appear for weapons.
Based on history, it was more likely that Bush would shoot Alexander Hamilton.
posted by Kid Charlemagne at 9:34 PM on February 24, 2008
I'm kind of surprised nobody has mentioned Thane Eugene Cesar, a 26 year old security guard standing directly behind Kennedy when Sirhan began shooting. Possibly accidental.
posted by vizsla at 3:08 AM on February 25, 2008
posted by vizsla at 3:08 AM on February 25, 2008
The dead only know one thing, it is better to be alive. - Joker - Full Metal Jacket.
posted by Senator at 8:57 AM on February 25, 2008
posted by Senator at 8:57 AM on February 25, 2008
“Just look at how the Watergate conspiracy fell apart.”
The Watergate conspiracy ‘fell apart’ the same way the Lewinski conspiracy ‘fell apart.’
Strange how all these guys keeping Nixon from getting into office kept getting shot by random whackos.
“nobody, ever, in any of these "conspiracies", has ever stepped forward, or even just dropped a hint,”
Lots of people died around these events. Lots of evidence was lost. The guy pulling the trigger didn’t do that.
“I can't imagine anyone believing the kind of enormous conspiracy the JFK or RFK assassinations would have required could be kept secret.”
There need only be a very small handful of principles. Why does every single individual involved have to know the entire picture or even that it’s connected in anyway? All they have to do is just do what they’re told.
And what can some lower eschelon pawn spill? “I was told to change the route?” Yeah, ok, so?
Maybe some guy closer to the principles who’s got more than two peices looks askew. But then the next day he has a tragic “car accident” or commits “suicide.” Anyone else who is outside either comes inside and can’t talk without implicating themselves or they have an accident. You want lead or silver?
But even if the truth does come out - what is it, exactly, is going to happen?
Most of the country believes JFK was assassinated as part of a conspiracy. So, if you want to say the secret is out - ok, it’s out.
As stated, the committee on assassination found there was a probable conspiracy in the JFK assassination. Whole lot of investigatin’ going on there after that? Lot of evidence checked out (like Kennedy’s missing brain)? Some interrogating going on there right after that? Maybe a little surveillance? Nope. nada.
Lots of folks are real suspicious about the 9/11 attack. Whole lot of investigation going on into that? I don’t mean the goofy stuff like cruise missiles and controlled detonations - I mean like - criminal negligence? Dereliction of duty? Howzabout maybe fire...like...a guy? Hold someone, y’know, responsible?
Nope. Nada.
Even if it’s completely square, the investigation, chain of evidence, all that was completely bungled in the JFK case - arguable one of the most important criminal investigations of all time. You clean the suit? Wash out the car? Lose JFKs f’ing brain? Let a maniac like Sirhan anywhere near the President? Much less route him through a kitchen like that - a kitchen? (Think about that for a minute).
Only reason I entertain a conspiracy in any of those cases is because the odds are stacked so far against a “lone nut.”
Jean Bastien Thiry was well equipped (time, intel, equipment) had the OAS behind him, he still couldn’t take out de Gaulle.
I’ve actually always wondered how these lone nuts pull some of these things off. It just doesn’t seem like a target of opportunity thing. Oswald, f’rinstnce - he just happens to get a job at a place along the parade route? I can see if he had snuck into the building or something, but a month and change before he happens to get a job along the parade route (negotiations over which were chaotic).
Same deal with Sirhan - he suddenly knows RFK is going to take a shortcut?
Maybe these guys were the only shooters, maybe not, but the string of coincidences lining up to create the situation where something like this can occur are pretty amazing.
I could (and to be clear I can not see any circumstances under which I would ever) take someone out in high office with a great deal of methodical work. But I could not do it without someone on the inside giving me either access and/or intelligence. Neither could John Wilkes Booth. And yet, he was a ‘lone’ shooter.
Whatever the case, certain parties seem to reap incredible benefits from some of these events. That alone raises suspicion and is worth investigation. Same principle the IRS operates on. You start spending way more than you earn, they get suspicious. Maybe you did nothing wrong, but not reporting (or under reporting) is still a crime.
posted by Smedleyman at 2:36 PM on February 25, 2008 [2 favorites]
The Watergate conspiracy ‘fell apart’ the same way the Lewinski conspiracy ‘fell apart.’
Strange how all these guys keeping Nixon from getting into office kept getting shot by random whackos.
“nobody, ever, in any of these "conspiracies", has ever stepped forward, or even just dropped a hint,”
Lots of people died around these events. Lots of evidence was lost. The guy pulling the trigger didn’t do that.
“I can't imagine anyone believing the kind of enormous conspiracy the JFK or RFK assassinations would have required could be kept secret.”
There need only be a very small handful of principles. Why does every single individual involved have to know the entire picture or even that it’s connected in anyway? All they have to do is just do what they’re told.
And what can some lower eschelon pawn spill? “I was told to change the route?” Yeah, ok, so?
Maybe some guy closer to the principles who’s got more than two peices looks askew. But then the next day he has a tragic “car accident” or commits “suicide.” Anyone else who is outside either comes inside and can’t talk without implicating themselves or they have an accident. You want lead or silver?
But even if the truth does come out - what is it, exactly, is going to happen?
Most of the country believes JFK was assassinated as part of a conspiracy. So, if you want to say the secret is out - ok, it’s out.
As stated, the committee on assassination found there was a probable conspiracy in the JFK assassination. Whole lot of investigatin’ going on there after that? Lot of evidence checked out (like Kennedy’s missing brain)? Some interrogating going on there right after that? Maybe a little surveillance? Nope. nada.
Lots of folks are real suspicious about the 9/11 attack. Whole lot of investigation going on into that? I don’t mean the goofy stuff like cruise missiles and controlled detonations - I mean like - criminal negligence? Dereliction of duty? Howzabout maybe fire...like...a guy? Hold someone, y’know, responsible?
Nope. Nada.
Even if it’s completely square, the investigation, chain of evidence, all that was completely bungled in the JFK case - arguable one of the most important criminal investigations of all time. You clean the suit? Wash out the car? Lose JFKs f’ing brain? Let a maniac like Sirhan anywhere near the President? Much less route him through a kitchen like that - a kitchen? (Think about that for a minute).
Only reason I entertain a conspiracy in any of those cases is because the odds are stacked so far against a “lone nut.”
Jean Bastien Thiry was well equipped (time, intel, equipment) had the OAS behind him, he still couldn’t take out de Gaulle.
I’ve actually always wondered how these lone nuts pull some of these things off. It just doesn’t seem like a target of opportunity thing. Oswald, f’rinstnce - he just happens to get a job at a place along the parade route? I can see if he had snuck into the building or something, but a month and change before he happens to get a job along the parade route (negotiations over which were chaotic).
Same deal with Sirhan - he suddenly knows RFK is going to take a shortcut?
Maybe these guys were the only shooters, maybe not, but the string of coincidences lining up to create the situation where something like this can occur are pretty amazing.
I could (and to be clear I can not see any circumstances under which I would ever) take someone out in high office with a great deal of methodical work. But I could not do it without someone on the inside giving me either access and/or intelligence. Neither could John Wilkes Booth. And yet, he was a ‘lone’ shooter.
Whatever the case, certain parties seem to reap incredible benefits from some of these events. That alone raises suspicion and is worth investigation. Same principle the IRS operates on. You start spending way more than you earn, they get suspicious. Maybe you did nothing wrong, but not reporting (or under reporting) is still a crime.
posted by Smedleyman at 2:36 PM on February 25, 2008 [2 favorites]
lupus_yonderboy You didn't read the response two above mine. Reading is no substitute for insult.
posted by johngumbo at 10:55 PM on February 26, 2008
posted by johngumbo at 10:55 PM on February 26, 2008
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posted by five fresh fish at 5:06 PM on February 23, 2008 [2 favorites]