Autistic Student Kicked Out of Class
May 31, 2008 9:44 PM Subscribe
5-Year-Old Autistic Student Voted Out of Kindergarten, Survivor-Style. (Link to interview with a representative of the school district).
Oh dear.
This pretty much is a media monstering of someone put in a very hard to deal with situation, isn't it?
posted by Artw at 10:00 PM on May 31, 2008
This pretty much is a media monstering of someone put in a very hard to deal with situation, isn't it?
posted by Artw at 10:00 PM on May 31, 2008
You know, I've talked a lot recently about voting students out of class, Survivor-Style, but I swear, I only meant in the educational realm of writer's workshops. Nothing younger than, say, age 20. So this is not my fault.
posted by redsparkler at 10:06 PM on May 31, 2008
posted by redsparkler at 10:06 PM on May 31, 2008
This pretty much is a media monstering of someone put in a very hard to deal with situation, isn't it?
I'm all for skeptical readings of these kind of shock stories, but from all the evidence available here, the media and the school district are being far too nice to this teacher, who sounds like an awful awful person.
Teachers verbally and physically abusing students is horrible, but to some extent understandable: they're human and can lose their temper like anyone else.
But cold-bloodedly using students that young to do her dirty work is just disgusting. I think the parents of the other kids in the class have almost as much right to be upset.
posted by drjimmy11 at 10:32 PM on May 31, 2008 [4 favorites]
I'm all for skeptical readings of these kind of shock stories, but from all the evidence available here, the media and the school district are being far too nice to this teacher, who sounds like an awful awful person.
Teachers verbally and physically abusing students is horrible, but to some extent understandable: they're human and can lose their temper like anyone else.
But cold-bloodedly using students that young to do her dirty work is just disgusting. I think the parents of the other kids in the class have almost as much right to be upset.
posted by drjimmy11 at 10:32 PM on May 31, 2008 [4 favorites]
(I also like how Fox News assumes the only way their readership can process the difficult concept of "voting" is to draw an analogy to a reality show in the first paragraph.)
posted by drjimmy11 at 10:34 PM on May 31, 2008 [11 favorites]
posted by drjimmy11 at 10:34 PM on May 31, 2008 [11 favorites]
This pretty much is a media monstering of someone put in a very hard to deal with situation, isn't it?
No, but the fact that the teacher was out of her depth should be taken into account when she is punished. And she definitely should be punished, especially if the kid is genuinely suffering from Aspergers.
Children with any form of autism can be a debacle in a regular classroom, but they can also be productive and a positive part of the class. This depends completely upon whether or not the teacher has or takes the time to understand how to get the child learning.
This is the teacher's job - to get children learning. While she probably couldn't do it with this kid going nuts in her room, she handled it in a despicable, common fashion and should probably be transferred out of the classroom permanently.
posted by Fuka at 10:36 PM on May 31, 2008 [2 favorites]
No, but the fact that the teacher was out of her depth should be taken into account when she is punished. And she definitely should be punished, especially if the kid is genuinely suffering from Aspergers.
Children with any form of autism can be a debacle in a regular classroom, but they can also be productive and a positive part of the class. This depends completely upon whether or not the teacher has or takes the time to understand how to get the child learning.
This is the teacher's job - to get children learning. While she probably couldn't do it with this kid going nuts in her room, she handled it in a despicable, common fashion and should probably be transferred out of the classroom permanently.
posted by Fuka at 10:36 PM on May 31, 2008 [2 favorites]
Florida.
posted by TheOnlyCoolTim at 10:36 PM on May 31, 2008 [2 favorites]
posted by TheOnlyCoolTim at 10:36 PM on May 31, 2008 [2 favorites]
When I was a kid in elementary school (Florida, as it happens), there was a boy in our class by the name of Puck. His last name was about as bad.
You can imagine how that turned out for him.
He was treated as a goofy slob by everybody, including myself, something I regret now but hardly thought about then.
One day during lunch some routine teasing somehow morphed into a schoolwide taunt. The school janitor (!) rallied the rest of the cafeteria into a mass chant mocking Puck and calling him names. He laughed through it all. Well, that or he broke down crying. It was hard to tell with all the commotion.
Later the headmaster visited each class and roundly scolded us for our behavior. I didn't get it. The kid was smiling and laughing, right? What was the problem? We didn't talk to him much after that.
This was years ago. Just recently, I was trawling through Facebook and Myspace trying to track down my old classmates. And I found Puck.
He was troubled. Into drugs. Fighting with his mom. Writing shitty poetry. In a bad place, basically. Very emo. I wondered how much we were to blame for his situation. I felt terrible, but couldn't bring myself to contact him.
A few months later I checked out his profile again. I was heartened by what I saw. He seemed a little healthier, a little happier. I began to feel better.
Then I read his latest blog post. I paraphrase:
RON PAUL REVOLUTION '08!!!!!! TAKE BACK "AMERIKA" FROM THE SLEEPING SHEEPLE OUR TIME IS NOW ONCE AND FOR ALL EVERY1, ITS TIME FOR THE TRUELY PATRIOTIC TO RISE UP, MAKE A STAND AND MAKE AMERICA STRONG AGAIN!!!!! GOOGLE RON PAUL 2DAY!!!
And there, right in the middle of the page, was a picture of Puck embracing the wrinkled, smiling form of Senator Ronald Ernest Paul.
Oh... oh, God. What have we done. What... have I done.
I fear I can never forgive myself for this.
posted by Rhaomi at 10:37 PM on May 31, 2008 [30 favorites]
You can imagine how that turned out for him.
He was treated as a goofy slob by everybody, including myself, something I regret now but hardly thought about then.
One day during lunch some routine teasing somehow morphed into a schoolwide taunt. The school janitor (!) rallied the rest of the cafeteria into a mass chant mocking Puck and calling him names. He laughed through it all. Well, that or he broke down crying. It was hard to tell with all the commotion.
Later the headmaster visited each class and roundly scolded us for our behavior. I didn't get it. The kid was smiling and laughing, right? What was the problem? We didn't talk to him much after that.
This was years ago. Just recently, I was trawling through Facebook and Myspace trying to track down my old classmates. And I found Puck.
He was troubled. Into drugs. Fighting with his mom. Writing shitty poetry. In a bad place, basically. Very emo. I wondered how much we were to blame for his situation. I felt terrible, but couldn't bring myself to contact him.
A few months later I checked out his profile again. I was heartened by what I saw. He seemed a little healthier, a little happier. I began to feel better.
Then I read his latest blog post. I paraphrase:
RON PAUL REVOLUTION '08!!!!!! TAKE BACK "AMERIKA" FROM THE SLEEPING SHEEPLE OUR TIME IS NOW ONCE AND FOR ALL EVERY1, ITS TIME FOR THE TRUELY PATRIOTIC TO RISE UP, MAKE A STAND AND MAKE AMERICA STRONG AGAIN!!!!! GOOGLE RON PAUL 2DAY!!!
And there, right in the middle of the page, was a picture of Puck embracing the wrinkled, smiling form of Senator Ronald Ernest Paul.
Oh... oh, God. What have we done. What... have I done.
I fear I can never forgive myself for this.
posted by Rhaomi at 10:37 PM on May 31, 2008 [30 favorites]
yes, it's certainly bad that he was voted out of class, although i have to wonder if it was the appropriate environment for him to begin with - what's even worse is that these 16 kids have now been taught that they can vote people away that they don't like - which is as good a training for fascism as any
that teacher should not be teaching, period
with my not yet diagnosed as autistic daughter, they knew on the first day of kindergarten that she belonged in the primary impaired program and were going to put her in it, but it wasn't going to be ready for a couple of weeks
well, the first day, the principal took her back on the bus and informed me that she just wasn't going to work out in a regular classroom period, as she was spending the time yelling about dragons and raccoons and such - kicked out of kindergarten on your first day - oh, man
eventually, she went into the ppi program and was dx'd as autistic - it was kind of a deal where the school district and us were a little slow to realize what we were dealing with - but asking 5 and 6 year old kids to VOTE someone out of a classroom? - that has got to be the dumbest excuse for an IEP (individualized education plan) i've ever heard of in my life - these things are supposed to be worked out by ADULTS
yes, it's tempting to sue their pants off, but what his mother really needs to do is to insist that the school put him in the least restrictive environment possible, per federal law, expedite his diagnosis, and work out a real program
i don't want to hear a bunch of idiocy about "we don't know all the facts" - i've been through this, i KNOW what is supposed to happen, i KNOW how these decisions are made and what the process is supposed to work like when it's done right, and this school district is strictly amateur hour, not even close
what a shameful, stupid job performance
posted by pyramid termite at 10:42 PM on May 31, 2008 [2 favorites]
that teacher should not be teaching, period
with my not yet diagnosed as autistic daughter, they knew on the first day of kindergarten that she belonged in the primary impaired program and were going to put her in it, but it wasn't going to be ready for a couple of weeks
well, the first day, the principal took her back on the bus and informed me that she just wasn't going to work out in a regular classroom period, as she was spending the time yelling about dragons and raccoons and such - kicked out of kindergarten on your first day - oh, man
eventually, she went into the ppi program and was dx'd as autistic - it was kind of a deal where the school district and us were a little slow to realize what we were dealing with - but asking 5 and 6 year old kids to VOTE someone out of a classroom? - that has got to be the dumbest excuse for an IEP (individualized education plan) i've ever heard of in my life - these things are supposed to be worked out by ADULTS
yes, it's tempting to sue their pants off, but what his mother really needs to do is to insist that the school put him in the least restrictive environment possible, per federal law, expedite his diagnosis, and work out a real program
i don't want to hear a bunch of idiocy about "we don't know all the facts" - i've been through this, i KNOW what is supposed to happen, i KNOW how these decisions are made and what the process is supposed to work like when it's done right, and this school district is strictly amateur hour, not even close
what a shameful, stupid job performance
posted by pyramid termite at 10:42 PM on May 31, 2008 [2 favorites]
But cold-bloodedly using students that young to do her dirty work is just disgusting. I think the parents of the other kids in the class have almost as much right to be upset.
I used to be a middle school teacher before I moved on to other things, and I must say that I am ambivalent about my son's experience with kindergarden. Although my son hasn't learned much, I certainly have. If I ever go back to teaching I will use far more care with what goes on in the classroom than I did before. My son's kindergarden teacher is a loony, and there is not a thing we as parents can do about it. Our son is a hostage. I just can't take school, or teachers, seriously any more. He is taught to sit still and be quiet, and line up when the fucking bell rings, and that's about it. And I love the fact that, thanks to the collective agreement, the school bell rings at precisely 3:02PM every day. All those extra two minutes add up. What a joke schools are now.
posted by KokuRyu at 10:56 PM on May 31, 2008 [1 favorite]
I used to be a middle school teacher before I moved on to other things, and I must say that I am ambivalent about my son's experience with kindergarden. Although my son hasn't learned much, I certainly have. If I ever go back to teaching I will use far more care with what goes on in the classroom than I did before. My son's kindergarden teacher is a loony, and there is not a thing we as parents can do about it. Our son is a hostage. I just can't take school, or teachers, seriously any more. He is taught to sit still and be quiet, and line up when the fucking bell rings, and that's about it. And I love the fact that, thanks to the collective agreement, the school bell rings at precisely 3:02PM every day. All those extra two minutes add up. What a joke schools are now.
posted by KokuRyu at 10:56 PM on May 31, 2008 [1 favorite]
Senator Ronald Ernest Paul
He's not a senator. And if he were, it wouldn't be you that needed to apologize.
posted by Epenthesis at 10:57 PM on May 31, 2008 [1 favorite]
He's not a senator. And if he were, it wouldn't be you that needed to apologize.
posted by Epenthesis at 10:57 PM on May 31, 2008 [1 favorite]
I have a high-functioning autistic second grader in my class, and he sometimes yells and screams or tears up papers. He's also a highly-valued member of our class, and I make sure that the other students are aware of it.
At the beginning of the year the others would stare and wonder about this student, but now they take the (increasingly infrequent) outbursts in stride and don't question the fact that he's treated differently. They take my lead and calmly comfort him and then leave him alone. (He hates feeling like the center of attention.)
The students in any class will follow the lead of the teacher, and this teacher obviously led her class to ridicule and embarrass this student, which is a horrible thing to do. I can't imagine deciding on her course of action in any circumstance.
However, if school districts are going to expect general education teachers to incorporate autistic children into their classrooms, which is happening more and more, there needs to be training and support. I had to figure out what would work on my own, and not every teacher is going to stumble on the right course of action... although almost all (if not all) would handle it better than this one did...
One last thing... kindergarteners being disgusted by eating boogers, crayons, and paper? This seems strange to me, as these substances seem to be staples of the kindergarten diet...
posted by Huck500 at 10:59 PM on May 31, 2008 [15 favorites]
At the beginning of the year the others would stare and wonder about this student, but now they take the (increasingly infrequent) outbursts in stride and don't question the fact that he's treated differently. They take my lead and calmly comfort him and then leave him alone. (He hates feeling like the center of attention.)
The students in any class will follow the lead of the teacher, and this teacher obviously led her class to ridicule and embarrass this student, which is a horrible thing to do. I can't imagine deciding on her course of action in any circumstance.
However, if school districts are going to expect general education teachers to incorporate autistic children into their classrooms, which is happening more and more, there needs to be training and support. I had to figure out what would work on my own, and not every teacher is going to stumble on the right course of action... although almost all (if not all) would handle it better than this one did...
One last thing... kindergarteners being disgusted by eating boogers, crayons, and paper? This seems strange to me, as these substances seem to be staples of the kindergarten diet...
posted by Huck500 at 10:59 PM on May 31, 2008 [15 favorites]
If the things stated in the Salon article are correct, it is very disappointing that the charge of child abuse is not going through. Having everyone in the class rip the kid a new one, having the teacher tell him she hates him, having him voted out of the classroom: damn straight that is outright emotional abuse.
Were it my kid, I'd make it my life's mission to ensure there were consequences for that abuse. Someone's head would be rolling.
The teacher needs to be relieved of her job. She needs to find another vocation.
posted by five fresh fish at 11:07 PM on May 31, 2008
Were it my kid, I'd make it my life's mission to ensure there were consequences for that abuse. Someone's head would be rolling.
The teacher needs to be relieved of her job. She needs to find another vocation.
posted by five fresh fish at 11:07 PM on May 31, 2008
Epenthesis: "He's not a senator. And if he were, it wouldn't be you that needed to apologize."
I blame these guys (prominent disclaimers notwithstanding)
posted by Rhaomi at 11:10 PM on May 31, 2008
I blame these guys (prominent disclaimers notwithstanding)
posted by Rhaomi at 11:10 PM on May 31, 2008
@ KokuRyu
If your child's teacher is indeed a loony, you absolutely can do something about it. The parents at my school have in the past complained enough to get teachers and even a principal fired or transferred, or at least to get their child out of a class. Go to the district and complain if you aren't satisfied.
If your child really isn't learning anything except how to sit and line up, that's something else to complain about. Do they really just practice those things all day, every day? At my school the kinder teachers are busy teaching their students letters and sounds, counting, all kinds of stuff. Have you volunteered in your child's class and seen the quiet sitting and lining up instruction? Have you talked to your child's teacher about it?
The minutes are determined by state law and the district; the schools have some leeway in how they meet the minute requirements, but sometimes that means strange bell schedules. I don't see how this affects you or your child anyway, or why you 'love' it.
Saying that all schools are a joke because you don't like yours insults me and all the teachers I know who work incredibly hard to ensure that our students are successful and happy. Please choose your words more carefully.
posted by Huck500 at 11:15 PM on May 31, 2008 [4 favorites]
If your child's teacher is indeed a loony, you absolutely can do something about it. The parents at my school have in the past complained enough to get teachers and even a principal fired or transferred, or at least to get their child out of a class. Go to the district and complain if you aren't satisfied.
If your child really isn't learning anything except how to sit and line up, that's something else to complain about. Do they really just practice those things all day, every day? At my school the kinder teachers are busy teaching their students letters and sounds, counting, all kinds of stuff. Have you volunteered in your child's class and seen the quiet sitting and lining up instruction? Have you talked to your child's teacher about it?
The minutes are determined by state law and the district; the schools have some leeway in how they meet the minute requirements, but sometimes that means strange bell schedules. I don't see how this affects you or your child anyway, or why you 'love' it.
Saying that all schools are a joke because you don't like yours insults me and all the teachers I know who work incredibly hard to ensure that our students are successful and happy. Please choose your words more carefully.
posted by Huck500 at 11:15 PM on May 31, 2008 [4 favorites]
Democracy is 14 wolves and a lamb voting on whats for dinner.
posted by Avenger at 11:25 PM on May 31, 2008 [11 favorites]
posted by Avenger at 11:25 PM on May 31, 2008 [11 favorites]
The teacher needs to be fired so that she can move on to a profession that she is better suited for. I say this as someone who would probably be equally bad at teaching elementary students or worse.
posted by BrotherCaine at 12:00 AM on June 1, 2008
posted by BrotherCaine at 12:00 AM on June 1, 2008
Democracy is 14 wolves and a lamb voting on whats for dinner.
If the lamb suggests boogers, I'm with the wolves.
Outside of the teacher's lounge, a teacher shouldn't be playing "who's the worstest kid in class" games, obviously, but maybe that kid shouldn't be there.
posted by pracowity at 12:01 AM on June 1, 2008
If the lamb suggests boogers, I'm with the wolves.
Outside of the teacher's lounge, a teacher shouldn't be playing "who's the worstest kid in class" games, obviously, but maybe that kid shouldn't be there.
posted by pracowity at 12:01 AM on June 1, 2008
The teacher needs to be fired so that she can move on to a profession that she is better suited for.
Congress?
I kid because I love
posted by dirtynumbangelboy at 12:09 AM on June 1, 2008 [6 favorites]
Congress?
I kid because I love
posted by dirtynumbangelboy at 12:09 AM on June 1, 2008 [6 favorites]
maybe that kid shouldn't be there.
Fine, that's fair. But even if the child should be in a special education class, that doesn't automatically make it okay that Portillo apparently took leave of her common sense. "Media monstering of a person put in a very hard to deal with situation?" Well, most people don't know how to deal with an autistic child—I have an autistic brother and I still don't know how to deal with him even though we've grown up together—but I'm pretty fucking sure "humiliating the child in front of the entire class and telling them they can't go to the office or go home" is NOT on the fucking top ten list of "things I should try to deal with an autistic child."
No sympathy whatsoever for the teacher. If she were teaching my kids, autistic or not, I'd want her head on a platter. I'm also pretty disturbed by the Slate report, not just because the school apparently has a police officer on retainer (??!?) but also because the police officer's questions dealt almost entirely with physical abuse, when clearly the problem was psychological abuse. It's like the officer had a specific idea of what constituted an offense, and when the incident didn't fit the parameters, the case was closed.
posted by chrominance at 12:30 AM on June 1, 2008 [1 favorite]
Fine, that's fair. But even if the child should be in a special education class, that doesn't automatically make it okay that Portillo apparently took leave of her common sense. "Media monstering of a person put in a very hard to deal with situation?" Well, most people don't know how to deal with an autistic child—I have an autistic brother and I still don't know how to deal with him even though we've grown up together—but I'm pretty fucking sure "humiliating the child in front of the entire class and telling them they can't go to the office or go home" is NOT on the fucking top ten list of "things I should try to deal with an autistic child."
No sympathy whatsoever for the teacher. If she were teaching my kids, autistic or not, I'd want her head on a platter. I'm also pretty disturbed by the Slate report, not just because the school apparently has a police officer on retainer (??!?) but also because the police officer's questions dealt almost entirely with physical abuse, when clearly the problem was psychological abuse. It's like the officer had a specific idea of what constituted an offense, and when the incident didn't fit the parameters, the case was closed.
posted by chrominance at 12:30 AM on June 1, 2008 [1 favorite]
When my wife told me about this incident earlier today I was convinced she'd only heard part of the story and was giving me an incomplete summary. Because the way she presented the story was so open and shut, black and white, with such an obvious bad guy that is was impossible to have any reaction other than "There must be another side to the story you're not telling me because no teacher could do anything that offensively stupid without getting fired immediately".
So I was quite surprised, when I looked up this story myself, to realize my wife had it right all along: There really doesn't appear to be another side, beyond the school district hiding behind the "This is private and confidential and we can't discuss the details of this case" defense.
I realize there is a mindset out there that states it is naive to ever take anything you read or hear at face value, that any and all issues are full of nuance and must be looked at from many different angles to get to the truth, etc., etc, however, based on the information currently available, I fail to see any way to argue that this is anything other than sickeningly wrong. To the "This teacher is being wrongly portrayed as a monster" people, what possible rationale is there that would make a teacher using the public humiliation method of disciplining a special needs student acceptable?
I'm not unsympathetic to the difficulties of dealing with autistic children. I have a 3-year-old one of my own and know all of the challenges firsthand. But the issue of whether or not this classroom was or was not a good fit for this student or whether or not his presence was a disruption to his classmates is an entirely separate issue that isn't necessarily relevant to the topic here.
posted by The Gooch at 1:03 AM on June 1, 2008 [3 favorites]
So I was quite surprised, when I looked up this story myself, to realize my wife had it right all along: There really doesn't appear to be another side, beyond the school district hiding behind the "This is private and confidential and we can't discuss the details of this case" defense.
I realize there is a mindset out there that states it is naive to ever take anything you read or hear at face value, that any and all issues are full of nuance and must be looked at from many different angles to get to the truth, etc., etc, however, based on the information currently available, I fail to see any way to argue that this is anything other than sickeningly wrong. To the "This teacher is being wrongly portrayed as a monster" people, what possible rationale is there that would make a teacher using the public humiliation method of disciplining a special needs student acceptable?
I'm not unsympathetic to the difficulties of dealing with autistic children. I have a 3-year-old one of my own and know all of the challenges firsthand. But the issue of whether or not this classroom was or was not a good fit for this student or whether or not his presence was a disruption to his classmates is an entirely separate issue that isn't necessarily relevant to the topic here.
posted by The Gooch at 1:03 AM on June 1, 2008 [3 favorites]
whether or not his presence was a disruption to his classmates is an entirely separate issue that isn't necessarily relevant to the topic here.
Exactly.
It should have been relevant to a conversation that this school initiated with this parent, but sadly that did not happen.
FWIW, my cousin has down's syndrome. He was schooled in mainstream classrooms. There are all sorts of ways to make this work. Children with disabilities that are especially challenging can have a one-on-one classroom aide, for example.
As a previous poster highlighted, having a kid in the class with these challenges can teach other students so much about kindness, patience, and communication. And the child with autism, etc., stays in an environment with a peer group that will encourage him to develop good social skills, rather than a segregated special ed classroom.
posted by flotson at 1:36 AM on June 1, 2008
Exactly.
It should have been relevant to a conversation that this school initiated with this parent, but sadly that did not happen.
FWIW, my cousin has down's syndrome. He was schooled in mainstream classrooms. There are all sorts of ways to make this work. Children with disabilities that are especially challenging can have a one-on-one classroom aide, for example.
As a previous poster highlighted, having a kid in the class with these challenges can teach other students so much about kindness, patience, and communication. And the child with autism, etc., stays in an environment with a peer group that will encourage him to develop good social skills, rather than a segregated special ed classroom.
posted by flotson at 1:36 AM on June 1, 2008
It's a sad fact, but some adults are so small, so stunted, that they actually play favorites among the children that they interact with. I remember it from a very young age (6 or 7) - seeing incredibly young children being ostracized, mocked and spanked by teachers 50 years older than them. After that, I was pretty much done with school by 2nd grade. It's disgusting, and I hope that teacher pays in spades for what he/she did.
posted by The Light Fantastic at 1:48 AM on June 1, 2008 [1 favorite]
posted by The Light Fantastic at 1:48 AM on June 1, 2008 [1 favorite]
I had to figure out what would work on my own, and not every teacher is going to stumble on the right course of action... although almost all (if not all) would handle it better than this one did...
Same here. The private school I teach at is sometimes used to "mainstream" kids with every conceivable learning disability from dyslexia to autism. The teachers aren't given any training in this - though we're given the option to seek out (and pay for) the training on our own, provided its on our own time and not school time (or school dime - yowza!).
That said, once I realized that I was going to be getting ADD, ADHD, autistic and Asperger kids, I did as much seeking out as I could. I've found that the kids who are actually most difficult to work with of this bunch are the ADHD kids. Seriously, the autistic and Asperger kids are sort of embraced by the rest of the student body (once they get over giggling at the latter's name, since it sounds like "ass burger") and the ADD kids can usually blend in. The majority of the poor ADHD kids though, just by nature of the disorder, usually manage to alienate most if not all of their fellow students pretty quickly.
Furthermore, in my experience, the class with the ADHD kid often becomes a class about the ADHD kid - while an autistic, ADD, or Asperger kid tends to "mainstream" much more effectively. Yes, there's the occasional outburst, but honestly most kids have the occasional outburst. As long as you've created a clear set of rules and boundaries (and enforce them fairly and consistently), they'll do just fine. The "H" in ADHD makes it really hard for that set of kids to control their outbursts no matter how one enforces them.
That all said, as a teacher, you are doing a greater service to your class by modeling patience with all of your students' quirks and disorders than by leading the charge against that student. Yeah, it isn't fair that a large chunk of their learning time is taken up dealing with a single student. But that's not the kids fault.
Shit flows downstream. If the school (or school board or school district or NCLB regulations or whatever) decides its going to accept kids with learning disorders and isn't going to train the teachers and is going to put them in the same classes as everyone else, sorry to say, but its our job as teachers to try to make their stupid decisions work to the best of our ability. As I said, the shit flows downstream and we as teachers - not the students - have to be where the shit collects and pools up. We can't let it flow onto them.
Anyhow, that's my view of professionalism in education. Try to do whatever boneheaded thing administrators and local and national governments want you to do without taking a crap on the kids. Which is what this teacher did, as near as I can tell from the article.
posted by Joey Michaels at 1:54 AM on June 1, 2008 [6 favorites]
Same here. The private school I teach at is sometimes used to "mainstream" kids with every conceivable learning disability from dyslexia to autism. The teachers aren't given any training in this - though we're given the option to seek out (and pay for) the training on our own, provided its on our own time and not school time (or school dime - yowza!).
That said, once I realized that I was going to be getting ADD, ADHD, autistic and Asperger kids, I did as much seeking out as I could. I've found that the kids who are actually most difficult to work with of this bunch are the ADHD kids. Seriously, the autistic and Asperger kids are sort of embraced by the rest of the student body (once they get over giggling at the latter's name, since it sounds like "ass burger") and the ADD kids can usually blend in. The majority of the poor ADHD kids though, just by nature of the disorder, usually manage to alienate most if not all of their fellow students pretty quickly.
Furthermore, in my experience, the class with the ADHD kid often becomes a class about the ADHD kid - while an autistic, ADD, or Asperger kid tends to "mainstream" much more effectively. Yes, there's the occasional outburst, but honestly most kids have the occasional outburst. As long as you've created a clear set of rules and boundaries (and enforce them fairly and consistently), they'll do just fine. The "H" in ADHD makes it really hard for that set of kids to control their outbursts no matter how one enforces them.
That all said, as a teacher, you are doing a greater service to your class by modeling patience with all of your students' quirks and disorders than by leading the charge against that student. Yeah, it isn't fair that a large chunk of their learning time is taken up dealing with a single student. But that's not the kids fault.
Shit flows downstream. If the school (or school board or school district or NCLB regulations or whatever) decides its going to accept kids with learning disorders and isn't going to train the teachers and is going to put them in the same classes as everyone else, sorry to say, but its our job as teachers to try to make their stupid decisions work to the best of our ability. As I said, the shit flows downstream and we as teachers - not the students - have to be where the shit collects and pools up. We can't let it flow onto them.
Anyhow, that's my view of professionalism in education. Try to do whatever boneheaded thing administrators and local and national governments want you to do without taking a crap on the kids. Which is what this teacher did, as near as I can tell from the article.
posted by Joey Michaels at 1:54 AM on June 1, 2008 [6 favorites]
Asperger's Syndrome is one of the worst semi-medical semi-psychiatric terms ever. If this kid suffers from anything (and he is not diagnosed, but being diagnosed) it is lack of attention.
I am amazed at the report of Officer Black (at the Salon site linked earlier). First, that police officers are made to discipline five-year-olds and, second, that Officer Black was so good at it. He says he dealt with the pupil before and found him quite amenable to one-on-one dealings. Not suitable for a classroom of seventeen? Maybe, but Officer Black points to another possibility. Of course, he also excuses "bopping" with a ruler.
Next, how could this teacher send a child from her classroom without establishing where he would go? She puts everything into the lap of this five-year-old. He winds up with the nurse because the principal has gone. This, by itself, demonstrates incompetence, either on the teacher's behalf or the administration which should have some guidelines in these matters.
Finally, maybe this Foxish news item will cause people to wonder about the bases for Survivor and similar programs. Is civilization cooperative or is it every man/woman for him/herself?
posted by CCBC at 2:08 AM on June 1, 2008
I am amazed at the report of Officer Black (at the Salon site linked earlier). First, that police officers are made to discipline five-year-olds and, second, that Officer Black was so good at it. He says he dealt with the pupil before and found him quite amenable to one-on-one dealings. Not suitable for a classroom of seventeen? Maybe, but Officer Black points to another possibility. Of course, he also excuses "bopping" with a ruler.
Next, how could this teacher send a child from her classroom without establishing where he would go? She puts everything into the lap of this five-year-old. He winds up with the nurse because the principal has gone. This, by itself, demonstrates incompetence, either on the teacher's behalf or the administration which should have some guidelines in these matters.
Finally, maybe this Foxish news item will cause people to wonder about the bases for Survivor and similar programs. Is civilization cooperative or is it every man/woman for him/herself?
posted by CCBC at 2:08 AM on June 1, 2008
And there, right in the middle of the page, was a picture of Puck embracing the wrinkled, smiling form of Senator Ronald Ernest Paul.
Actually he's just a congressman.
posted by delmoi at 2:21 AM on June 1, 2008
Actually he's just a congressman.
posted by delmoi at 2:21 AM on June 1, 2008
Isn't it fairly normal for there to be some kind of class discussion about the behavior of a disruptive or bullying child, in order to impress on them the way that their behavior makes other kids feel? And not that unusual for the other kids to be given some input as to how a disruptive child should be dealt with?
posted by tomcooke at 3:49 AM on June 1, 2008
posted by tomcooke at 3:49 AM on June 1, 2008
If my daughter was in that class, I'd take her out of that school.
Like mentioned above, children will follow the lead of the teacher, because they are the adult authority you are supposed to follow. Had it been me in that class I would have felt terrible about 'voting' that boy out, but I wouldn't have dared to disobey.
It reminds me of my first school, where our teacher was clearly an racist ass. I was from the get-go her pet, because I was a smiley little blond girl who really wanted to please everyone. I recall sitting next to her helping to collect papers to grade when Freddy (a black child) came up with his paper and turned it in. Freddy was all red eyed and clearly tearing, he kept rubbing his eyes. "What's the matter Freddy, got something in your eye?" asked the teacher and he just mumbled "it's nothing ma'am". I don't know why I picked up on this being wrong but I knew from my teachers voice that she knew what was happening to Freddy's eyes (and I really liked Freddy, so I was probably paying extra attention to him) I told my mother when I came home and started complaining about stomach pains whenever it was time for school (angst pains as it turned out). Mom helped out in class on Mondays and figured that something was wrong, Freddy was clearly allergic. One day she unlocked the teachers desk drawer and found a list on top where every item Freddy was allergic to was listed, chicken feathers and whatnot. She looked around the room, where we had been making easter decorations with, yeah chicken feathers. The teacher was fully aware of Freddy's allergies and using things that would trigger his symptoms in class. My angst stomach pains came from 'understanding' on some level what was going on, but not being able to explain it.
Mom took me out of that school that same day and set out on a long journey to have that teacher fired. She tried to rally other parents to help but they all said that if they would protest, the teacher would turn on their kids (which is why she moved me back to kindergarden).
This teacher needs another job, as it's not just affecting the boy who got voted out, but I bet there are other children in that class who feel really bad about this right now.
posted by dabitch at 3:51 AM on June 1, 2008 [1 favorite]
Like mentioned above, children will follow the lead of the teacher, because they are the adult authority you are supposed to follow. Had it been me in that class I would have felt terrible about 'voting' that boy out, but I wouldn't have dared to disobey.
It reminds me of my first school, where our teacher was clearly an racist ass. I was from the get-go her pet, because I was a smiley little blond girl who really wanted to please everyone. I recall sitting next to her helping to collect papers to grade when Freddy (a black child) came up with his paper and turned it in. Freddy was all red eyed and clearly tearing, he kept rubbing his eyes. "What's the matter Freddy, got something in your eye?" asked the teacher and he just mumbled "it's nothing ma'am". I don't know why I picked up on this being wrong but I knew from my teachers voice that she knew what was happening to Freddy's eyes (and I really liked Freddy, so I was probably paying extra attention to him) I told my mother when I came home and started complaining about stomach pains whenever it was time for school (angst pains as it turned out). Mom helped out in class on Mondays and figured that something was wrong, Freddy was clearly allergic. One day she unlocked the teachers desk drawer and found a list on top where every item Freddy was allergic to was listed, chicken feathers and whatnot. She looked around the room, where we had been making easter decorations with, yeah chicken feathers. The teacher was fully aware of Freddy's allergies and using things that would trigger his symptoms in class. My angst stomach pains came from 'understanding' on some level what was going on, but not being able to explain it.
Mom took me out of that school that same day and set out on a long journey to have that teacher fired. She tried to rally other parents to help but they all said that if they would protest, the teacher would turn on their kids (which is why she moved me back to kindergarden).
This teacher needs another job, as it's not just affecting the boy who got voted out, but I bet there are other children in that class who feel really bad about this right now.
posted by dabitch at 3:51 AM on June 1, 2008 [1 favorite]
I teach at a university now, (thank Jeebers), but have taught all twelve school grades. Teachers are a weird shower in my experience. Around half are really fun, progressive and interesting people. The other half are primarily interested in the exercise of control over children. It, ah, validates them.
Imagine getting your jollies from pushing children around! It's even juicier for these people because they can judge, rank, coerce and otherwise push these kids about and it's all for the kiddies' own good!
At least people with a mental disorder have an excuse. These certified, registered professionals have none.
posted by Wolof at 5:43 AM on June 1, 2008 [2 favorites]
Imagine getting your jollies from pushing children around! It's even juicier for these people because they can judge, rank, coerce and otherwise push these kids about and it's all for the kiddies' own good!
At least people with a mental disorder have an excuse. These certified, registered professionals have none.
posted by Wolof at 5:43 AM on June 1, 2008 [2 favorites]
"Barton said her son is in the process of being diagnosed with Asperger's syndrome, a type of high-functioning autism. Alex began the testing process in February at the suggestion of Morningside Principal Marcia Cully."
This doesn't make the teacher's behavior any less reprehensible, but the kid hasn't actually been diagnosed as autistic (yet).
posted by googly at 6:06 AM on June 1, 2008
This doesn't make the teacher's behavior any less reprehensible, but the kid hasn't actually been diagnosed as autistic (yet).
posted by googly at 6:06 AM on June 1, 2008
if school districts are going to expect general education teachers to incorporate autistic children into their classrooms, which is happening more and more, there needs to be training and support.
Good luck. I teach figure skating part time and we often get autistic kids in class. The city is required to provide an aide, but they often either can't skate or are unavailable, so they just put these kids in class anyway. In one instance I requested training from the city, which was okayed, but turned out to be a phone call from the aide stating, "make sure he's looking at you," "don't let him be disruptive," and "just kind of figure out what to do" all while teaching this highly impaired child and 14 other beginners. I was forced to accept another child in an advanced class who spent 4 sessions screaming, hitting me, pushing the other skaters and other *dangerous* behavior (kid was 12, 5'1" and 110 lbs) I was not allowed to speak to the mother, I was told that if it "upset" me perhaps I should do something else with my life, etc. I finally took it on myself to suggest to the mother that perhaps this was not the safest environment for the child.
I finally sought out training on my own from a special rec program. They helped me learn how to integrate these kids (although they agreed that figure skating was not a good environment for autistic children.) They taught me how to engage the other kids in the classes about what the deal was-- this child has this disability. He is required to follow the same rules as anybody else, but we're going to help him do this. The whole class learned to cope with this, and in fact were incredibly helpful to me in trying to work through the problems with him on their own. I also let the parents know that these kids were going to require more of my attention that might seem fair, and that I would support them if they wanted to move their kids into a different session. No one moved, kids learned to skate.
Isn't it fairly normal for there to be some kind of class discussion about the behavior of a disruptive or bullying child, in order to impress on them the way that their behavior makes other kids feel? And not that unusual for the other kids to be given some input as to how a disruptive child should be dealt with?
Of course. And this is exactly what that teacher did not do. If I could do it in a 45-minute once a week class with children who didn't know each other at all, surely an all-day-every-day regular school teacher could have done better.
posted by nax at 6:12 AM on June 1, 2008
Good luck. I teach figure skating part time and we often get autistic kids in class. The city is required to provide an aide, but they often either can't skate or are unavailable, so they just put these kids in class anyway. In one instance I requested training from the city, which was okayed, but turned out to be a phone call from the aide stating, "make sure he's looking at you," "don't let him be disruptive," and "just kind of figure out what to do" all while teaching this highly impaired child and 14 other beginners. I was forced to accept another child in an advanced class who spent 4 sessions screaming, hitting me, pushing the other skaters and other *dangerous* behavior (kid was 12, 5'1" and 110 lbs) I was not allowed to speak to the mother, I was told that if it "upset" me perhaps I should do something else with my life, etc. I finally took it on myself to suggest to the mother that perhaps this was not the safest environment for the child.
I finally sought out training on my own from a special rec program. They helped me learn how to integrate these kids (although they agreed that figure skating was not a good environment for autistic children.) They taught me how to engage the other kids in the classes about what the deal was-- this child has this disability. He is required to follow the same rules as anybody else, but we're going to help him do this. The whole class learned to cope with this, and in fact were incredibly helpful to me in trying to work through the problems with him on their own. I also let the parents know that these kids were going to require more of my attention that might seem fair, and that I would support them if they wanted to move their kids into a different session. No one moved, kids learned to skate.
Isn't it fairly normal for there to be some kind of class discussion about the behavior of a disruptive or bullying child, in order to impress on them the way that their behavior makes other kids feel? And not that unusual for the other kids to be given some input as to how a disruptive child should be dealt with?
Of course. And this is exactly what that teacher did not do. If I could do it in a 45-minute once a week class with children who didn't know each other at all, surely an all-day-every-day regular school teacher could have done better.
posted by nax at 6:12 AM on June 1, 2008
And there, right in the middle of the page, was a picture of Puck embracing the wrinkled, smiling form of Senator Ronald Ernest Paul.
Oh... oh, God. What have we done. What... have I done.
On the other hand, I'll pretty much guarantee that 40-60% of Floridians will vote for John McCain. So comparatively, he's not doing that bad.
posted by TheOnlyCoolTim at 6:28 AM on June 1, 2008
Oh... oh, God. What have we done. What... have I done.
On the other hand, I'll pretty much guarantee that 40-60% of Floridians will vote for John McCain. So comparatively, he's not doing that bad.
posted by TheOnlyCoolTim at 6:28 AM on June 1, 2008
This is a curious story that's been a bit everywhere on the Internuts.
I'm surprised no one is raising the possibility that this story may be very sharply skewed towards the little boy.
The slate article seems to point out that the kid was never diagnosed as a special needs person, this being something his mother first claimed on the very day of the incident, nonetheless his uncontrollable behaviour landed him at the principal's office very often, that even when questionned about the incident he admitted that he acted "bad" but proceeded to lie about the circumstances saying that the teacher hit him, something that no one else from his class confirms.
The "voting out" was in regards to his coming back to class right after being sent out, not about being voted out of the classroom forever.
Imho he doesn't sound like a victim, he sounds like a bully.
posted by ruelle at 6:31 AM on June 1, 2008 [1 favorite]
I'm surprised no one is raising the possibility that this story may be very sharply skewed towards the little boy.
The slate article seems to point out that the kid was never diagnosed as a special needs person, this being something his mother first claimed on the very day of the incident, nonetheless his uncontrollable behaviour landed him at the principal's office very often, that even when questionned about the incident he admitted that he acted "bad" but proceeded to lie about the circumstances saying that the teacher hit him, something that no one else from his class confirms.
The "voting out" was in regards to his coming back to class right after being sent out, not about being voted out of the classroom forever.
Imho he doesn't sound like a victim, he sounds like a bully.
posted by ruelle at 6:31 AM on June 1, 2008 [1 favorite]
The "voting out" was in regards to his coming back to class right after being sent out, not about being voted out of the classroom forever.
it's inappropriate, period - it is the school's responsibility to come up with disciplinary solutions, not a classroom of 5 and 6 year olds
posted by pyramid termite at 6:43 AM on June 1, 2008
it's inappropriate, period - it is the school's responsibility to come up with disciplinary solutions, not a classroom of 5 and 6 year olds
posted by pyramid termite at 6:43 AM on June 1, 2008
Here's to the two kids who didn't vote to throw him out. 5-year-olds showing spine, & compassion. Good going, you two. I'd also like to hear more from the rest of the parents in this class.
But yeah, Floorduh.
posted by Devils Rancher at 6:56 AM on June 1, 2008 [4 favorites]
But yeah, Floorduh.
posted by Devils Rancher at 6:56 AM on June 1, 2008 [4 favorites]
I've seen this a bunch of places, never with enough detail to really figure out much about what really went on.
Well, you see, there's this group of children and they have this conch...
posted by The Straightener at 7:53 AM on June 1, 2008 [5 favorites]
Well, you see, there's this group of children and they have this conch...
posted by The Straightener at 7:53 AM on June 1, 2008 [5 favorites]
I'm surprised no one is raising the possibility that this story may be very sharply skewed towards the little boy.
WTF? He's a five year old. How the FUCK can he bear any responsibility for the teacher's inappropriate behaviour?
Sweet baby jesus, there's more than one head that needs to roll.
posted by five fresh fish at 8:45 AM on June 1, 2008 [3 favorites]
WTF? He's a five year old. How the FUCK can he bear any responsibility for the teacher's inappropriate behaviour?
Sweet baby jesus, there's more than one head that needs to roll.
posted by five fresh fish at 8:45 AM on June 1, 2008 [3 favorites]
This story highlights one of the big differences between education in (most of?) the USA and in British Columbia.
Even with the atrocious cutbacks we've been seeing in this province, teachers do get training and support for the integration of special needs children into their classrooms.
maybe that kid shouldn't be there
And again with the WTF. When did autism become something that deprives one of his rights and equality under the law? Is this not a public school system? Is he a second-class citizen?
Jesus. It's not like the kid is a mass murder.
Do your schools not have cerebral palsied kids in wheelchairs attending classes? Are your Down's Syndrome kids still being sent to mental institutions to live out their lives in a small room?
Things in the US system must be much, much worse than I'd thought. That, or BC and Alberta's systems are incredibly advanced.
posted by five fresh fish at 8:53 AM on June 1, 2008 [2 favorites]
Even with the atrocious cutbacks we've been seeing in this province, teachers do get training and support for the integration of special needs children into their classrooms.
maybe that kid shouldn't be there
And again with the WTF. When did autism become something that deprives one of his rights and equality under the law? Is this not a public school system? Is he a second-class citizen?
Jesus. It's not like the kid is a mass murder.
Do your schools not have cerebral palsied kids in wheelchairs attending classes? Are your Down's Syndrome kids still being sent to mental institutions to live out their lives in a small room?
Things in the US system must be much, much worse than I'd thought. That, or BC and Alberta's systems are incredibly advanced.
posted by five fresh fish at 8:53 AM on June 1, 2008 [2 favorites]
"Barton said her son is in the process of being diagnosed with Asperger's syndrome, a type of high-functioning autism. Alex began the testing process in February at the suggestion of Morningside Principal Marcia Cully."
I watched this story on CNN, and they interviewed the boy's mother. She said that he had already been diagnosed with ADHD or ADD (can't remember, I think the former).
Can someone confirm this?
posted by MissNefertiti at 8:56 AM on June 1, 2008
I watched this story on CNN, and they interviewed the boy's mother. She said that he had already been diagnosed with ADHD or ADD (can't remember, I think the former).
Can someone confirm this?
posted by MissNefertiti at 8:56 AM on June 1, 2008
Wait, I found it. He does have ADHD and Asperger's Syndrome.
Is that even possible?
posted by MissNefertiti at 9:02 AM on June 1, 2008
Is that even possible?
posted by MissNefertiti at 9:02 AM on June 1, 2008
Yeah, this one is pretty weird.
In my limited experience with kids that are on the high-function end of the autistic spectrum is that they're tricky to deal with. A kids with Down's Syndrome can be hard to handle but generally your expectations are pretty well set. With Asperger's/Autism you get kids that are articulate and intelligent but who have very poor social skills. Tell them to build a castle, great. Tell them to stop picking their nose and they just don't do it. If you don't know what's going on with the kid then you get the impression they're disobedient when it's just a gap between different areas of cognitive development.
The teacher sounds pretty unequipped to deal with the kid though she's possibly just a jerk as others have noted. She must have been pretty strung out to think that a re-enactment of "Lord of the Flies" would somehow soften the blow of expelling this kid from class.
posted by GuyZero at 9:11 AM on June 1, 2008
In my limited experience with kids that are on the high-function end of the autistic spectrum is that they're tricky to deal with. A kids with Down's Syndrome can be hard to handle but generally your expectations are pretty well set. With Asperger's/Autism you get kids that are articulate and intelligent but who have very poor social skills. Tell them to build a castle, great. Tell them to stop picking their nose and they just don't do it. If you don't know what's going on with the kid then you get the impression they're disobedient when it's just a gap between different areas of cognitive development.
The teacher sounds pretty unequipped to deal with the kid though she's possibly just a jerk as others have noted. She must have been pretty strung out to think that a re-enactment of "Lord of the Flies" would somehow soften the blow of expelling this kid from class.
posted by GuyZero at 9:11 AM on June 1, 2008
Is that even possible?
Asperger's is not in the DSM so for official purposes you can't ever have it. ADHD is. So for IEP purposes, you have ADHD. ADHD itself is a diagnosis that may have one of several underlying causes. Some forms of ADHD are grouped with Asperger's and autism in what's called 'autistic spectrum disorder', as it's rarely an all-or-nothing diagnosis.
posted by GuyZero at 9:14 AM on June 1, 2008
Asperger's is not in the DSM so for official purposes you can't ever have it. ADHD is. So for IEP purposes, you have ADHD. ADHD itself is a diagnosis that may have one of several underlying causes. Some forms of ADHD are grouped with Asperger's and autism in what's called 'autistic spectrum disorder', as it's rarely an all-or-nothing diagnosis.
posted by GuyZero at 9:14 AM on June 1, 2008
Oh shit. I just googled it and I was wrong - Asperger's is apparently in the DSM. It was added in '94. Which is odd because a child psychologist told me that. Anyway, my mistake.
posted by GuyZero at 9:16 AM on June 1, 2008
posted by GuyZero at 9:16 AM on June 1, 2008
"Can someone confirm this?"
Of course not; why let the facts mar an otherwise perfectly good histrionic response to a complex issue based on a few poorly researched paragraphs from a journalistic source known for its fairness and balance.
The second post here regarding Slate's coverage contains a detailed police report of this and prior related incidents. Whatever you do, don't read it.
posted by fydfyd at 9:18 AM on June 1, 2008
Of course not; why let the facts mar an otherwise perfectly good histrionic response to a complex issue based on a few poorly researched paragraphs from a journalistic source known for its fairness and balance.
The second post here regarding Slate's coverage contains a detailed police report of this and prior related incidents. Whatever you do, don't read it.
posted by fydfyd at 9:18 AM on June 1, 2008
>>Imho he doesn't sound like a victim, he sounds like a bully.<<
Ruelle, I'm with you there. The teacher's (rather sadistic) actions were extremely unprofessional, and she should be disciplined and/or fired. But it sounds from the story as if that child should have been removed from that classroom for the benefit of the other students he was allegedly hitting and kicking and otherwise disrupting on an apparently regular basis. The quality of a public school education can be marginal enough as it is. "Compassion" is no reason to subject 16 other students to a disruptive (and allegedly violent) bully.
Would those of you calling for the compassionate integration of this child into this classroom feel so charitable if your child had been a daily recipient of this kid's kicks and punches? If your child were in a classroom in which perhaps 30% or 40% of each day’s class time was wasted on one consistently disruptive student?
posted by applemeat at 9:20 AM on June 1, 2008 [1 favorite]
Ruelle, I'm with you there. The teacher's (rather sadistic) actions were extremely unprofessional, and she should be disciplined and/or fired. But it sounds from the story as if that child should have been removed from that classroom for the benefit of the other students he was allegedly hitting and kicking and otherwise disrupting on an apparently regular basis. The quality of a public school education can be marginal enough as it is. "Compassion" is no reason to subject 16 other students to a disruptive (and allegedly violent) bully.
Would those of you calling for the compassionate integration of this child into this classroom feel so charitable if your child had been a daily recipient of this kid's kicks and punches? If your child were in a classroom in which perhaps 30% or 40% of each day’s class time was wasted on one consistently disruptive student?
posted by applemeat at 9:20 AM on June 1, 2008 [1 favorite]
Where to begin...
Schools reflect society. Nothing magical happens when you walk in the door. Some teachers are crazy, incompetence, politically skewed, lazy...just like every other profession.
Most are hard-working, dedicated, underpaid, overworked, and often underappreciated. Thanks to the Fix News mindset for that.
Yes, I am one. I teach sixth grade gifted in one of the top districts in the country.
Special needs kids have a right to the help they need but there are occasions when an individual's "least restrictive environment" contributes to everyone elses extremely restrictive environment. If these terms are unfamiliar to you learn about the IDEA
As to the ever growing list of exceptionalities kids [boys] are being diagnosed with (at one workshop I attended recently the presenter made the case that every child has two or more exceptionalities) I would offer that the problem is often a lack of discipline. Parents want to be friends with their children, not the adult in the room. Simply observe the behavior of many children in public places. A lessening sense of social boundaries is often evident and the affluent parents are often the worst. Many kids come to school with a sense of entitlement that is unbelievable. The Chinese call it "little emperor syndrome".
Do teachers (and everyone else) a favor and discipline your kid. Behavioral limits and an enforced daily schedule is a good start. You can be friends with the grandchildren.
posted by aiq at 9:42 AM on June 1, 2008 [2 favorites]
Schools reflect society. Nothing magical happens when you walk in the door. Some teachers are crazy, incompetence, politically skewed, lazy...just like every other profession.
Most are hard-working, dedicated, underpaid, overworked, and often underappreciated. Thanks to the Fix News mindset for that.
Yes, I am one. I teach sixth grade gifted in one of the top districts in the country.
Special needs kids have a right to the help they need but there are occasions when an individual's "least restrictive environment" contributes to everyone elses extremely restrictive environment. If these terms are unfamiliar to you learn about the IDEA
As to the ever growing list of exceptionalities kids [boys] are being diagnosed with (at one workshop I attended recently the presenter made the case that every child has two or more exceptionalities) I would offer that the problem is often a lack of discipline. Parents want to be friends with their children, not the adult in the room. Simply observe the behavior of many children in public places. A lessening sense of social boundaries is often evident and the affluent parents are often the worst. Many kids come to school with a sense of entitlement that is unbelievable. The Chinese call it "little emperor syndrome".
Do teachers (and everyone else) a favor and discipline your kid. Behavioral limits and an enforced daily schedule is a good start. You can be friends with the grandchildren.
posted by aiq at 9:42 AM on June 1, 2008 [2 favorites]
Shush your mouth, no one can sell pills for a lack of discipline.
posted by TheOnlyCoolTim at 9:59 AM on June 1, 2008 [1 favorite]
posted by TheOnlyCoolTim at 9:59 AM on June 1, 2008 [1 favorite]
IIRC, autism and AD(H)D can be comorbid.
The explanation I gravitate towards is that when one thing is wrong in one part of the brain (e.g. frontal lobe in the case of AD(H)D) the brain tries to compensate by dicking with other bits of the brain.
Anecdata: ADHD and bipolar seems to be a common combo. Both are frontal lobe activation related.
posted by subbes at 10:28 AM on June 1, 2008
The explanation I gravitate towards is that when one thing is wrong in one part of the brain (e.g. frontal lobe in the case of AD(H)D) the brain tries to compensate by dicking with other bits of the brain.
Anecdata: ADHD and bipolar seems to be a common combo. Both are frontal lobe activation related.
posted by subbes at 10:28 AM on June 1, 2008
It would be fantastic if teachers in Florida could get the training they needed to handle autistic kids. However, given the infinite wisdom of Florida voters, I don't think that's going to happen anytime soon.
Florida recently voted for a massive property tax reform which is seriously draining resources for all the counties. I spent my Tuesday listening to the Broward County Commission Budget Hearing -- and every department, including education, is going to have to cut their budgets by 24%. Libraries are being cut, the division of elections' budget is being cut (because we've never had a problem with that before), and so on.
There's a lot of recently failed development in St. Lucie County, which probably means there's not a lot of money going towards education. And this means that teachers aren't getting the training they need to work with all the students they will work with.
While it's easy to point fingers (and who knows, maybe this teacher is simply a monster who would have done the same thing after training), I think this sort of thing comes up because of the system in place.
posted by JustKeepSwimming at 10:34 AM on June 1, 2008 [1 favorite]
Florida recently voted for a massive property tax reform which is seriously draining resources for all the counties. I spent my Tuesday listening to the Broward County Commission Budget Hearing -- and every department, including education, is going to have to cut their budgets by 24%. Libraries are being cut, the division of elections' budget is being cut (because we've never had a problem with that before), and so on.
There's a lot of recently failed development in St. Lucie County, which probably means there's not a lot of money going towards education. And this means that teachers aren't getting the training they need to work with all the students they will work with.
While it's easy to point fingers (and who knows, maybe this teacher is simply a monster who would have done the same thing after training), I think this sort of thing comes up because of the system in place.
posted by JustKeepSwimming at 10:34 AM on June 1, 2008 [1 favorite]
As to the ever growing list of exceptionalities kids [boys] are being diagnosed with (at one workshop I attended recently the presenter made the case that every child has two or more exceptionalities) I would offer that the problem is often a lack of discipline.
As a parent who has both a son and a daughter, I would say that there is ever-increasing pressure for academic accomplishment. This manifests itself as focusing on activities that are, frankly, age-inappropriate for boys. I am hardly the first parent to posit that the school system has become very focused on girls who enjoy cooperating and doing indoor activities much more than boys. Personally, I think we could push back the academic standards by boys for a whole grade or more in the elementary system and you would see a net improvement. This is driven by parents with unrealistic expectations as much as anyone but educators are certainly to blame as well. My observation is that elementary school seems geared towards teaching the top 25% of the students while the high school system focuses on the bottom 25%. Backwards IMO.
posted by GuyZero at 10:50 AM on June 1, 2008 [1 favorite]
As a parent who has both a son and a daughter, I would say that there is ever-increasing pressure for academic accomplishment. This manifests itself as focusing on activities that are, frankly, age-inappropriate for boys. I am hardly the first parent to posit that the school system has become very focused on girls who enjoy cooperating and doing indoor activities much more than boys. Personally, I think we could push back the academic standards by boys for a whole grade or more in the elementary system and you would see a net improvement. This is driven by parents with unrealistic expectations as much as anyone but educators are certainly to blame as well. My observation is that elementary school seems geared towards teaching the top 25% of the students while the high school system focuses on the bottom 25%. Backwards IMO.
posted by GuyZero at 10:50 AM on June 1, 2008 [1 favorite]
He's FIVE. Not fifteen, not fifty, FIVE. So I am kind of amazed at all of you who think that his behavior is even an issue here. These are little, little kids. Five year olds aren't fully socialized yet. That's the nature of kindergarteners and they're really not capable of bullying in the way some of you are describing it. Give them a few years; they'll learn - but five year olds don't work on the same level as you all seem to think. The science and art of dealing with them, however, has been long established and it does not call for public humiliation, bullying and Cultural Revolution style community shaming. This is horrific.
Not only that, but when I did my teacher training almost 20 years ago, mainstreaming was already well in place and you couldn't get a teaching certificate without at least one semester of special ed. Public school; teaching for twelve years - this is far from the first kid with special needs she's encountered. 17 kids in the class; probably at least one aide - not a huge class by any means. This teacher needs to be fired, prosecuted, tarred and feathered - whatever would stop her from ever, ever teaching again. I'm a parent and an educator; if my child was in that school I'd move heaven and earth to get her out of there and into jail.
posted by mygothlaundry at 10:53 AM on June 1, 2008 [4 favorites]
Not only that, but when I did my teacher training almost 20 years ago, mainstreaming was already well in place and you couldn't get a teaching certificate without at least one semester of special ed. Public school; teaching for twelve years - this is far from the first kid with special needs she's encountered. 17 kids in the class; probably at least one aide - not a huge class by any means. This teacher needs to be fired, prosecuted, tarred and feathered - whatever would stop her from ever, ever teaching again. I'm a parent and an educator; if my child was in that school I'd move heaven and earth to get her out of there and into jail.
posted by mygothlaundry at 10:53 AM on June 1, 2008 [4 favorites]
Here's to the two kids who didn't vote to throw him out. 5-year-olds showing spine, & compassion. Good going, you two. I'd also like to hear more from the rest of the parents in this class.
Hear, hear. That's what struck me the most in the police report. Like Officer Black, I don't believe Mrs. Portillo is guilty of child abuse, but she shouldn't be let anywhere near a classroom, because she clearly is unfit for her job. And I don't care what sort of pseudo-psychiatric diagnosis is given to CAB, whether it's Asperger's, ADD, ADHD: he simply sounds like a brat, a handful of a 5-year-old yelling for attention, but any adult who chooses to earn his or her living teaching kindergarten classes should be ready to deal with that sort of child without repeatedly calling a police officer, or turning the class into "Lord of the Flies".
I'm therefore most impressed by the two children, 5 year olds, who refused to follow their teacher. By the only friend who "refused to be bullied" and stood up to the teacher, as much as by the anonymous child who, while not CAB's friend, still voted "no".
On the other hand, I'm depressed by the fact that the 7-1 ratio shown in this classroom sounds very much like the historical ratio of adults' reactions when authorities persecute minorities. It seems that our ethics don't really grow up after age 5...
posted by Skeptic at 10:55 AM on June 1, 2008
Hear, hear. That's what struck me the most in the police report. Like Officer Black, I don't believe Mrs. Portillo is guilty of child abuse, but she shouldn't be let anywhere near a classroom, because she clearly is unfit for her job. And I don't care what sort of pseudo-psychiatric diagnosis is given to CAB, whether it's Asperger's, ADD, ADHD: he simply sounds like a brat, a handful of a 5-year-old yelling for attention, but any adult who chooses to earn his or her living teaching kindergarten classes should be ready to deal with that sort of child without repeatedly calling a police officer, or turning the class into "Lord of the Flies".
I'm therefore most impressed by the two children, 5 year olds, who refused to follow their teacher. By the only friend who "refused to be bullied" and stood up to the teacher, as much as by the anonymous child who, while not CAB's friend, still voted "no".
On the other hand, I'm depressed by the fact that the 7-1 ratio shown in this classroom sounds very much like the historical ratio of adults' reactions when authorities persecute minorities. It seems that our ethics don't really grow up after age 5...
posted by Skeptic at 10:55 AM on June 1, 2008
I spent eight years in a school with a boy who acted a lot like this one. In that time there was only one teacher who was able to handle him. Handle all of us, really. His transformation was amazing and most of us wound up being friends with him from then on. He never completely stopped getting wild, but he did completely stop hurting other students.
The year after, we had a teacher who wasn't so exceptional. She was unable to control the class at all, and the boy was put back with the other teacher until the next year. (We were so far behind him then that he breezed through the first two semesters and played with his Spirograph during math. It was one of the things he could focus on for hours.)
I doubt any amount of training would help the teacher in Florida though. Some people have it, and some don't. It's likely she's been mishandling him all along and was at the end of her rope... but the voting-off-the-island thing jumped right over 'inappropriate' and square into wrong.
posted by merelyglib at 11:38 AM on June 1, 2008
The year after, we had a teacher who wasn't so exceptional. She was unable to control the class at all, and the boy was put back with the other teacher until the next year. (We were so far behind him then that he breezed through the first two semesters and played with his Spirograph during math. It was one of the things he could focus on for hours.)
I doubt any amount of training would help the teacher in Florida though. Some people have it, and some don't. It's likely she's been mishandling him all along and was at the end of her rope... but the voting-off-the-island thing jumped right over 'inappropriate' and square into wrong.
posted by merelyglib at 11:38 AM on June 1, 2008
Not only that, but when I did my teacher training almost 20 years ago, mainstreaming was already well in place and you couldn't get a teaching certificate without at least one semester of special ed.
Ditto, but in Alberta. It's entirely possible other universities have such piss-poor education departments that they simply don't address special needs at all. Wouldn't surprise me. The state of education for educators is pretty dismal, even at U of A, let alone Florida.
In BC we have teacher aides. Not every kid that needs one gets one, but it goes a helluva long way to making it practical to mainstream them.
Sounds like Florida wouldn't ever see any value in putting money into that, though.
posted by five fresh fish at 11:51 AM on June 1, 2008
Ditto, but in Alberta. It's entirely possible other universities have such piss-poor education departments that they simply don't address special needs at all. Wouldn't surprise me. The state of education for educators is pretty dismal, even at U of A, let alone Florida.
In BC we have teacher aides. Not every kid that needs one gets one, but it goes a helluva long way to making it practical to mainstream them.
Sounds like Florida wouldn't ever see any value in putting money into that, though.
posted by five fresh fish at 11:51 AM on June 1, 2008
We all know about voting issues in Florida. Shouldn't we demand a recount?
posted by grounded at 1:37 PM on June 1, 2008
posted by grounded at 1:37 PM on June 1, 2008
I do find it amazing that anyone sides with the teacher in this-- and if you read the comments on the local papers coverage, many, many do. They believe a five year old can be a bully and that the way to deal with bullying is to bully the bully by confronting him and humiliating him.
these people don't get that
a) like people pointed out above, five year olds are not developmentally capable of genuine bullying and even if one were to be so, it would almost certainly be a reflection of the treatment he is receiving at home or amongst peers somewhere. five year olds can be held accountable to teach them how to control themselves, but they are not responsible for their behavior yet.
b) asperger's and autism impair social judgment. at five, they definitely wouldn't understand that picking one's nose is a faux pas because they generally can't read social cues. trying to humiliate them for doing so would only make them more likely to withdraw from others, not help them learn to socialize.
c) any teacher who believes that humiliating, stigmatizing and ostracizing kids is any way to treat them simply does not belong in a classroom. you are a role model and with a kindergarten class, you determine the social world. it's not like high school-- you can shape how the kids interact and you can either encourage or discourage inclusion. if you "pick on" people, they will think that's acceptable and do it themselves. if you humiliate them, ditto.
as a teacher, you are supposed to teach kids how to deal with each other and teaching them that you get rid of someone difficult is not a good lesson.
this idea that you can teach bullies compassion by having other people tell them what's wrong with them is just wrong-- you only learn compassion by being treated compassionately. having the class "gang up" on the bully just shows him that power wins.
posted by Maias at 3:09 PM on June 1, 2008
these people don't get that
a) like people pointed out above, five year olds are not developmentally capable of genuine bullying and even if one were to be so, it would almost certainly be a reflection of the treatment he is receiving at home or amongst peers somewhere. five year olds can be held accountable to teach them how to control themselves, but they are not responsible for their behavior yet.
b) asperger's and autism impair social judgment. at five, they definitely wouldn't understand that picking one's nose is a faux pas because they generally can't read social cues. trying to humiliate them for doing so would only make them more likely to withdraw from others, not help them learn to socialize.
c) any teacher who believes that humiliating, stigmatizing and ostracizing kids is any way to treat them simply does not belong in a classroom. you are a role model and with a kindergarten class, you determine the social world. it's not like high school-- you can shape how the kids interact and you can either encourage or discourage inclusion. if you "pick on" people, they will think that's acceptable and do it themselves. if you humiliate them, ditto.
as a teacher, you are supposed to teach kids how to deal with each other and teaching them that you get rid of someone difficult is not a good lesson.
this idea that you can teach bullies compassion by having other people tell them what's wrong with them is just wrong-- you only learn compassion by being treated compassionately. having the class "gang up" on the bully just shows him that power wins.
posted by Maias at 3:09 PM on June 1, 2008
applemeat Would those of you calling for the compassionate integration of this child into this classroom feel so charitable if your child had been a daily recipient of this kid's kicks and punches? If your child were in a classroom in which perhaps 30% or 40% of each day’s class time was wasted on one consistently disruptive student?
Right on. Integration is pushed by two forces: disability advocates, whose focus (reasonably enough) is solely on the right of disabled children to live, as much as possible, in the "normal" manner, and the (dubious) benefit to disabled children of being exposed to "normal" children; and bean-counting, nit-picking education bureaucrats, who see a dollar to be saved in not having a special school or special needs teachers, and who could not care less about teaching outcomes.
The teacher's classroom management was bad, although this sounds more like an ill-founded touchy-feely "let's all tell Alex how him kicking us hurts, and picking his nose disgusts us, so he feels our pain and stops" exercise gone wrong, than an intentional emulation of Lord of the Flies or Survivor. There is enough fault left over for the education bureaucrats and politicians, who will not fund proper support systems for disabled children, such as managed integration, where Alex is in the normal school only for some of the time, for appropriate lessons, and the rest of the time receives specialist attention; and hopefully by the time he's twelve or thirteen, will have learned how to integrate in a way that is helpful to him and to other children in the classes.
dabitch If my daughter was in that class, I'd take her out of that school.
Lots of people say this, and presumably some of them do this, whenever any problem occurs at any school, and this, in my opinion, a generally bad idea. A child should not be blithely taken out of school as though her own connections, friendships, and stability in life do not matter; even though she is only five, she has rights of her own and an opinion as to whether she wants to stay at that school or not. Even if she's the one being bullied, it seems deeply unfair to me to not consult her as to whether or not she wants to leave the school. There's no guarantee that anywhere else is better, either. Chances are it's just a different set of problems, and now she doesn't have her friends around, unless she (and you, and the friend and the friend's parents) go to some effort to maintain her friendships.
If the teacher, or another child, or some aspect of the school environment poses a threat, there is of course a natural instinct to remove one's child from the threat. But that threat presumably is posed to other children as well as to your own. I realize it is common, for a variety of reasons, to consider only one's own child in any decision-making, but it would be desirable, for the sake of the other children in the class, and for the sake of the child who probably fills your daughter's seat the next week (perhaps having been "taken out" of another school by their own indignant parents), to address the threat itself.
Removing your child greatly reduces your ability to achieve this. While it's a salient demonstration, for sure, it makes you no longer a parent of a child in that class at that school. One of your primary levers of power, being able to say "my child is in that class and I want her to be safe", is gone. You become just another member of the public. Worse, you encourage the school to view the musical chairs system--child A is moved to school B, child B is moved to school A--as a valid response to complaints. There is some small risk of your child being the focus of retaliation, but you can and should prepare her for that (and teach her a very valuable moral lesson in the process: sometimes we must be prepared to suffer a bit more, so that our and others' suffering can be made to stop), you can warn the teacher and the principal against it in writing, and if it occurs, you have a whole lot of power, legal as well as social.
Obviously in some disputes it won't always help to have your child in the school, eg with the principal, with a teacher the principal backs to the hilt, with the PTA, with the education bureaucracy; the more specific the dispute is to your child, the less it will help to keep your child in the school. But in this exact situation, and in Freddy's case, it would help a lot to have your daughter in the school. It would help Alex, and it would help Freddy; and seeing her mother do that, and being involved in it herself, would help your daughter.
posted by aeschenkarnos at 3:38 PM on June 1, 2008
Right on. Integration is pushed by two forces: disability advocates, whose focus (reasonably enough) is solely on the right of disabled children to live, as much as possible, in the "normal" manner, and the (dubious) benefit to disabled children of being exposed to "normal" children; and bean-counting, nit-picking education bureaucrats, who see a dollar to be saved in not having a special school or special needs teachers, and who could not care less about teaching outcomes.
The teacher's classroom management was bad, although this sounds more like an ill-founded touchy-feely "let's all tell Alex how him kicking us hurts, and picking his nose disgusts us, so he feels our pain and stops" exercise gone wrong, than an intentional emulation of Lord of the Flies or Survivor. There is enough fault left over for the education bureaucrats and politicians, who will not fund proper support systems for disabled children, such as managed integration, where Alex is in the normal school only for some of the time, for appropriate lessons, and the rest of the time receives specialist attention; and hopefully by the time he's twelve or thirteen, will have learned how to integrate in a way that is helpful to him and to other children in the classes.
dabitch If my daughter was in that class, I'd take her out of that school.
Lots of people say this, and presumably some of them do this, whenever any problem occurs at any school, and this, in my opinion, a generally bad idea. A child should not be blithely taken out of school as though her own connections, friendships, and stability in life do not matter; even though she is only five, she has rights of her own and an opinion as to whether she wants to stay at that school or not. Even if she's the one being bullied, it seems deeply unfair to me to not consult her as to whether or not she wants to leave the school. There's no guarantee that anywhere else is better, either. Chances are it's just a different set of problems, and now she doesn't have her friends around, unless she (and you, and the friend and the friend's parents) go to some effort to maintain her friendships.
If the teacher, or another child, or some aspect of the school environment poses a threat, there is of course a natural instinct to remove one's child from the threat. But that threat presumably is posed to other children as well as to your own. I realize it is common, for a variety of reasons, to consider only one's own child in any decision-making, but it would be desirable, for the sake of the other children in the class, and for the sake of the child who probably fills your daughter's seat the next week (perhaps having been "taken out" of another school by their own indignant parents), to address the threat itself.
Removing your child greatly reduces your ability to achieve this. While it's a salient demonstration, for sure, it makes you no longer a parent of a child in that class at that school. One of your primary levers of power, being able to say "my child is in that class and I want her to be safe", is gone. You become just another member of the public. Worse, you encourage the school to view the musical chairs system--child A is moved to school B, child B is moved to school A--as a valid response to complaints. There is some small risk of your child being the focus of retaliation, but you can and should prepare her for that (and teach her a very valuable moral lesson in the process: sometimes we must be prepared to suffer a bit more, so that our and others' suffering can be made to stop), you can warn the teacher and the principal against it in writing, and if it occurs, you have a whole lot of power, legal as well as social.
Obviously in some disputes it won't always help to have your child in the school, eg with the principal, with a teacher the principal backs to the hilt, with the PTA, with the education bureaucracy; the more specific the dispute is to your child, the less it will help to keep your child in the school. But in this exact situation, and in Freddy's case, it would help a lot to have your daughter in the school. It would help Alex, and it would help Freddy; and seeing her mother do that, and being involved in it herself, would help your daughter.
posted by aeschenkarnos at 3:38 PM on June 1, 2008
His 14:2 ratio is better than I would have done. Well done kid, take the two steadfast friends and never look back.
posted by clearly at 4:44 PM on June 1, 2008
posted by clearly at 4:44 PM on June 1, 2008
Integration is pushed by two forces: disability advocates, whose focus (reasonably enough) is solely on the right of disabled children to live, as much as possible, in the "normal" manner, and the (dubious) benefit to disabled children of being exposed to "normal" children
As one of those advocates, I can tell you that there's a huge benefit to being around nondisabled children. Normalization of disability for those kids aside (brushing disabled kids into another room simply helps perpetuate Othering stereotypes), history has shown again and again that "separate but equal" never is.
posted by spaceman_spiff at 4:59 PM on June 1, 2008
As one of those advocates, I can tell you that there's a huge benefit to being around nondisabled children. Normalization of disability for those kids aside (brushing disabled kids into another room simply helps perpetuate Othering stereotypes), history has shown again and again that "separate but equal" never is.
posted by spaceman_spiff at 4:59 PM on June 1, 2008
Integration is pushed by... the (dubious) benefit to disabled children of being exposed to "normal" children
The benefit to autistic kids of being exposed to typical peers is not "dubious" and I'd love to hear a citation of where you come up with that idea. Typical peers provide a model of proper social behavior that autistic kids can learn to imitate, something that cannot be achieved if the autistic student is only exposed to similarly disabled children. (Documentation here, see Item #4.)
If you want to argue, as others have in this thread, that having a difficult special needs student in the class hinders the overall learning experience of the "normal" students, I'd be willing to engage that argument. But the benefit to an autistic student of being in such an environment is not in doubt.
posted by The Gooch at 5:03 PM on June 1, 2008 [1 favorite]
The benefit to autistic kids of being exposed to typical peers is not "dubious" and I'd love to hear a citation of where you come up with that idea. Typical peers provide a model of proper social behavior that autistic kids can learn to imitate, something that cannot be achieved if the autistic student is only exposed to similarly disabled children. (Documentation here, see Item #4.)
If you want to argue, as others have in this thread, that having a difficult special needs student in the class hinders the overall learning experience of the "normal" students, I'd be willing to engage that argument. But the benefit to an autistic student of being in such an environment is not in doubt.
posted by The Gooch at 5:03 PM on June 1, 2008 [1 favorite]
aeschenkarnos, I'd be interested to see any studies you've got that support your argument. I've been a teacher, and I do not recall any information that supports your claims of (dubious) benefit to disabled children and certainly not anything of a dollar to be saved in not having a special school or special needs teachers.
Indeed, the information I've had over the years indicated that integration does not provide cost savings, and does have definite beneficial outcomes for both the integrated student and the "normal" students.
Your claims strike me as being extraordinary. I suspect you to be rather misinformed, and perhaps having a bug lodged up your ass about it all.
posted by five fresh fish at 5:16 PM on June 1, 2008
Indeed, the information I've had over the years indicated that integration does not provide cost savings, and does have definite beneficial outcomes for both the integrated student and the "normal" students.
Your claims strike me as being extraordinary. I suspect you to be rather misinformed, and perhaps having a bug lodged up your ass about it all.
posted by five fresh fish at 5:16 PM on June 1, 2008
As to the ever growing list of exceptionalities kids [boys] are being diagnosed with (at one workshop I attended recently the presenter made the case that every child has two or more exceptionalities) I would offer that the problem is often a lack of discipline. Parents want to be friends with their children, not the adult in the room.
I would hope you are not referring to the diagnosis of autism or asperger's here. I'm not trying to put words into your mouth that you didn't intend, but, generally, I'd be incredibly insulted if anyone were to suggest that my son's autistic symptom's (echolalia, difficulty with transitions, tantrums, lack of spontaneous conversational skills, intense need for routine) were totally nurture based, the blame of which can be placed soley at the feet of me and my wife for trying to be his buddy instead of his parents.
posted by The Gooch at 6:21 PM on June 1, 2008
I would hope you are not referring to the diagnosis of autism or asperger's here. I'm not trying to put words into your mouth that you didn't intend, but, generally, I'd be incredibly insulted if anyone were to suggest that my son's autistic symptom's (echolalia, difficulty with transitions, tantrums, lack of spontaneous conversational skills, intense need for routine) were totally nurture based, the blame of which can be placed soley at the feet of me and my wife for trying to be his buddy instead of his parents.
posted by The Gooch at 6:21 PM on June 1, 2008
The Gooch The benefit to autistic kids of being exposed to typical peers is not "dubious"
To clarify: I'm against institutionalization, and I'm against complete integration. I'm in favor of developmental integration, properly managed and increasing over time, so the autistic kid does get exposure to typical peers, in a carefully managed way. For instance, I'd expect a (partially) autistic five-year-old to benefit greatly from supervised, structured play with one or two "normal" playmates. But just dumping him into an ordinary class with an ordinary teacher is asking for trouble.
If interaction with peers is mismanaged--as in the article--it can be harmful. If it is not managed at all, it might or might not be harmful, but on the whole, I would bet on harmful. Kids don't need a teacher to drive them into singling out the weird kid and making his/her life a misery. Quite the opposite: one of the teacher's main duties is to prevent kids from engaging in such behavior, which they will do if left to their own devices. (With preventative education ideally, not just discipline.)
So yes, I repeat my assertion: being exposed to typical peers is dubious, whether or not a kid is a "normal kid" themselves, doubly so if there's some particular vulnerability. Unsupervised, unmanaged, natural interaction is very dubious. Dubious does not mean it will be bad; just that it will likely be bad. Humans are neither kind nor cruel to one another, on the average. That average comes after years of basic decency training.
Bad experiences are an important part of one's formative development too, but I won't argue for them.
and I'd love to hear a citation of where you come up with that idea.
Aeschenkarnos, "Playground Experiences of a Weird Kid in the 80's, with Subsequent Observations" (unpublished).
Most people who were the weird kid, for whatever reason we were weird (be it a kind of lopsided mental development, a genuine mental disorder, odd parental religion or ethnic customs, early interest in non-age-appropriate reading material, etc) can tell similar stories. Sometimes we're the bullied, sometimes we're the bullies (and it is the natural human tendency to remember the bullying we received as a terrible experience, and the bullying we did as playful fun); but suffice to say, the benefits of unmanaged exposure to one's peer group, especially with minimal preparation and debriefing, are dubious.
Typical peers provide a model of proper social behavior that autistic kids can learn to imitate, something that cannot be achieved if the autistic student is only exposed to similarly disabled children
"When a child is ready to enter a group situation ..." is the major point. Considering the exact nature of autism, yes. Most definitely. However, the experience of Alex in the linked story, while it counts as "exposure", is hardly desirable.
five fresh fish Indeed, the information I've had over the years indicated that integration does not provide cost savings, and does have definite beneficial outcomes for both the integrated student and the "normal" students.
What exactly constitutes "integration" in this context? Put the problem kid in the classroom with the others and expect the teacher to deal with him/her, or give the problem kid and the teacher sufficient support to integrate the kid properly?
Your claims strike me as being extraordinary. I suspect you to be rather misinformed, and perhaps having a bug lodged up your ass about it all.
The way educational institutions cope with special needs kids will vary from place to place; if you're lucky enough to live in an area where they do manage the process properly, that would explain both of your experiences of beneficial outcomes, and the lack of cost savings. Nax's figure skating example above, is more the rule where I live: cope, as Nax did, or quit. Special needs education as a proportion of our state education budget has significantly decreased over the last 20 years, and a lot of the integration push here has been driven by a desire to cut costs, rather than to produce better outcomes.
But perhaps I'm overly cynical about the motives of school administrations.
posted by aeschenkarnos at 7:49 PM on June 1, 2008
To clarify: I'm against institutionalization, and I'm against complete integration. I'm in favor of developmental integration, properly managed and increasing over time, so the autistic kid does get exposure to typical peers, in a carefully managed way. For instance, I'd expect a (partially) autistic five-year-old to benefit greatly from supervised, structured play with one or two "normal" playmates. But just dumping him into an ordinary class with an ordinary teacher is asking for trouble.
If interaction with peers is mismanaged--as in the article--it can be harmful. If it is not managed at all, it might or might not be harmful, but on the whole, I would bet on harmful. Kids don't need a teacher to drive them into singling out the weird kid and making his/her life a misery. Quite the opposite: one of the teacher's main duties is to prevent kids from engaging in such behavior, which they will do if left to their own devices. (With preventative education ideally, not just discipline.)
So yes, I repeat my assertion: being exposed to typical peers is dubious, whether or not a kid is a "normal kid" themselves, doubly so if there's some particular vulnerability. Unsupervised, unmanaged, natural interaction is very dubious. Dubious does not mean it will be bad; just that it will likely be bad. Humans are neither kind nor cruel to one another, on the average. That average comes after years of basic decency training.
Bad experiences are an important part of one's formative development too, but I won't argue for them.
and I'd love to hear a citation of where you come up with that idea.
Aeschenkarnos, "Playground Experiences of a Weird Kid in the 80's, with Subsequent Observations" (unpublished).
Most people who were the weird kid, for whatever reason we were weird (be it a kind of lopsided mental development, a genuine mental disorder, odd parental religion or ethnic customs, early interest in non-age-appropriate reading material, etc) can tell similar stories. Sometimes we're the bullied, sometimes we're the bullies (and it is the natural human tendency to remember the bullying we received as a terrible experience, and the bullying we did as playful fun); but suffice to say, the benefits of unmanaged exposure to one's peer group, especially with minimal preparation and debriefing, are dubious.
Typical peers provide a model of proper social behavior that autistic kids can learn to imitate, something that cannot be achieved if the autistic student is only exposed to similarly disabled children
"When a child is ready to enter a group situation ..." is the major point. Considering the exact nature of autism, yes. Most definitely. However, the experience of Alex in the linked story, while it counts as "exposure", is hardly desirable.
five fresh fish Indeed, the information I've had over the years indicated that integration does not provide cost savings, and does have definite beneficial outcomes for both the integrated student and the "normal" students.
What exactly constitutes "integration" in this context? Put the problem kid in the classroom with the others and expect the teacher to deal with him/her, or give the problem kid and the teacher sufficient support to integrate the kid properly?
Your claims strike me as being extraordinary. I suspect you to be rather misinformed, and perhaps having a bug lodged up your ass about it all.
The way educational institutions cope with special needs kids will vary from place to place; if you're lucky enough to live in an area where they do manage the process properly, that would explain both of your experiences of beneficial outcomes, and the lack of cost savings. Nax's figure skating example above, is more the rule where I live: cope, as Nax did, or quit. Special needs education as a proportion of our state education budget has significantly decreased over the last 20 years, and a lot of the integration push here has been driven by a desire to cut costs, rather than to produce better outcomes.
But perhaps I'm overly cynical about the motives of school administrations.
posted by aeschenkarnos at 7:49 PM on June 1, 2008
The article I read stated that the kid hadn't been diagnosed with autism or aspergers until after all this happened. So this kid was a classic Problem Child in class, wreaking havoc to no end. Did the teacher have meetings with the parents over this? We don't know. Was the kid disciplined constantly with no measurable effect? We don't know.
Things like this don't happen in a vacuum. The teacher should've used better judgement to be sure, but I'll bet 20 bucks that this kid had been a big problem in class. Maybe the teacher tried to fix the problem but couldn't for some reason. We don't know.
Parents nowadays are often very reluctant to hear that little Jimmy or little Sally has done something bad at school ("My son would never act inappropriately, he's a perfect little angel!"). Are the kid's parents like that? We don't know. If they are, coupled with an undiagnosed medical condition, are a recipe for disaster.
The teacher's student vote was ridiculous and reprehensible, it's as if she was putting the responsibility of kicking the kid out on the other kids. But I'm guessing that this was the proverbial last straw.
posted by zardoz at 9:02 PM on June 1, 2008
Things like this don't happen in a vacuum. The teacher should've used better judgement to be sure, but I'll bet 20 bucks that this kid had been a big problem in class. Maybe the teacher tried to fix the problem but couldn't for some reason. We don't know.
Parents nowadays are often very reluctant to hear that little Jimmy or little Sally has done something bad at school ("My son would never act inappropriately, he's a perfect little angel!"). Are the kid's parents like that? We don't know. If they are, coupled with an undiagnosed medical condition, are a recipe for disaster.
The teacher's student vote was ridiculous and reprehensible, it's as if she was putting the responsibility of kicking the kid out on the other kids. But I'm guessing that this was the proverbial last straw.
posted by zardoz at 9:02 PM on June 1, 2008
history has shown again and again that "separate but equal" never is.
Agreed. But.. in terms of education, "separate but equal" can mean "segregated by actual learning ability into classrooms that are able to cater to that level of ability". Which translates to "separated by ability, equal access to education". This works in this case because sometimes kids have special needs that simply cannot be accommodated in regular classrooms while still teaching the rest of the kids in an appropriate way. On the macro level that gives us individual grades. On the micro level, sometimes that means Sally is in a mainstream class (adjusted for ability), and sometimes it means Billy is in a class of special needs children where he can get 1-on-1 attention as he needs it.*
"Separate but equal" doesn't work, I feel the need to say, when it's about skin colour because skin colour does not, in and of itself, impact learning ability--poverty does, which cuts across colour lines. The difference with Aspergers or ADHD or whatever kids is that their condition does affect learning ability, or to be more accurate affects their ability to learn in what have been developed as standardized ways. Sometimes that can be integrated into a 'normal' classroom, sometimes it can't.
That being said, I think it's pretty clear that mainstreaming children, whenever even remotely appropriate, is best for everyone. The 'special' kid integrates into what should be their peer group, while the peer group gets some important life lessons about dealing with people who are different.
*And all that being said, I got taught algebra in grade 1 because we saw the older kids doing it, and our teacher showed us how. So that doesn't always work.
posted by dirtynumbangelboy at 9:38 PM on June 1, 2008 [1 favorite]
Agreed. But.. in terms of education, "separate but equal" can mean "segregated by actual learning ability into classrooms that are able to cater to that level of ability". Which translates to "separated by ability, equal access to education". This works in this case because sometimes kids have special needs that simply cannot be accommodated in regular classrooms while still teaching the rest of the kids in an appropriate way. On the macro level that gives us individual grades. On the micro level, sometimes that means Sally is in a mainstream class (adjusted for ability), and sometimes it means Billy is in a class of special needs children where he can get 1-on-1 attention as he needs it.*
"Separate but equal" doesn't work, I feel the need to say, when it's about skin colour because skin colour does not, in and of itself, impact learning ability--poverty does, which cuts across colour lines. The difference with Aspergers or ADHD or whatever kids is that their condition does affect learning ability, or to be more accurate affects their ability to learn in what have been developed as standardized ways. Sometimes that can be integrated into a 'normal' classroom, sometimes it can't.
That being said, I think it's pretty clear that mainstreaming children, whenever even remotely appropriate, is best for everyone. The 'special' kid integrates into what should be their peer group, while the peer group gets some important life lessons about dealing with people who are different.
*And all that being said, I got taught algebra in grade 1 because we saw the older kids doing it, and our teacher showed us how. So that doesn't always work.
posted by dirtynumbangelboy at 9:38 PM on June 1, 2008 [1 favorite]
I fully agree with DNAB.
One thing to point out, though - Sally needn't go every day to the mainstream class, Billy needn't go every day to the special needs class. There's considerable room for gradation, and adjustment from time to time.
Also, the major educational purpose of school is social behavior. Getting along with others. (IMO we'd be well-served to teach social behavior in the foreground and let reading, writing, and arithmetic be absorbed through games and activities, rather than the other way aroundat least until age 8 or so.) As such, it is extremely vital to the purpose that those kids who have serious problems getting along with others should be able to be helped with that, through a program that is as individualized as it needs to be, and which has opportunities for more socially advanced kids to help in positive ways.
I wonder if this will be something our descendants look back on, that we, bizarrely, taught children mathematics in exacting detail and tested them exhaustively on their mastery of semi-relevant maths skills, while simultaneously leaving their social development and capacities to expand on their own with no assessment beyond "good enough to be a prefect/student councillor" vs "the kid is alright" vs "bad, deserving punishment of a nature unrelated to their badness" vs "we cannot teach this kid, which is the kid's fault, not ours, and we predict that he will spend much of his adulthood in jail, which is his fault, not ours".
posted by aeschenkarnos at 11:46 PM on June 1, 2008
One thing to point out, though - Sally needn't go every day to the mainstream class, Billy needn't go every day to the special needs class. There's considerable room for gradation, and adjustment from time to time.
Also, the major educational purpose of school is social behavior. Getting along with others. (IMO we'd be well-served to teach social behavior in the foreground and let reading, writing, and arithmetic be absorbed through games and activities, rather than the other way aroundat least until age 8 or so.) As such, it is extremely vital to the purpose that those kids who have serious problems getting along with others should be able to be helped with that, through a program that is as individualized as it needs to be, and which has opportunities for more socially advanced kids to help in positive ways.
I wonder if this will be something our descendants look back on, that we, bizarrely, taught children mathematics in exacting detail and tested them exhaustively on their mastery of semi-relevant maths skills, while simultaneously leaving their social development and capacities to expand on their own with no assessment beyond "good enough to be a prefect/student councillor" vs "the kid is alright" vs "bad, deserving punishment of a nature unrelated to their badness" vs "we cannot teach this kid, which is the kid's fault, not ours, and we predict that he will spend much of his adulthood in jail, which is his fault, not ours".
posted by aeschenkarnos at 11:46 PM on June 1, 2008
The article I read stated that the kid hadn't been diagnosed with autism or aspergers until after all this happened. So this kid was a classic Problem Child in class, wreaking havoc to no end. Did the teacher have meetings with the parents over this? We don't know. Was the kid disciplined constantly with no measurable effect? We don't know.
Actually, we do -- according to an article on the issue that I read, the child had not officially received a confirmed diagnosis, but he WAS undergoing evaluation to determine a possible diagnosis. And the teacher WAS aware of this fact, and had also been included in a number of discussions designed to lay the groundwork for his integration into the class in anticipation of that diagnosis.
But all of that, to me, is besides the point -- people talk up about how he had Asperger's, but it escapes me how this kind of treatment would be appropriate for ANY child. Even if he was just a garden-variety brat, this kind of treatment is just overkill.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 9:32 AM on June 2, 2008
Actually, we do -- according to an article on the issue that I read, the child had not officially received a confirmed diagnosis, but he WAS undergoing evaluation to determine a possible diagnosis. And the teacher WAS aware of this fact, and had also been included in a number of discussions designed to lay the groundwork for his integration into the class in anticipation of that diagnosis.
But all of that, to me, is besides the point -- people talk up about how he had Asperger's, but it escapes me how this kind of treatment would be appropriate for ANY child. Even if he was just a garden-variety brat, this kind of treatment is just overkill.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 9:32 AM on June 2, 2008
Agreed. But.. in terms of education, "separate but equal" can mean "segregated by actual learning ability into classrooms that are able to cater to that level of ability". Which translates to "separated by ability, equal access to education". This works in this case because sometimes kids have special needs that simply cannot be accommodated in regular classrooms while still teaching the rest of the kids in an appropriate way.
True. But suggestions that inclusion is of "dubious" benefit generally are a preface to continued segregating behavior of a more negative sort. I was mainstreamed through most of my K-12 education, though I did have occasional experiences - both positive and negative - of separated classrooms. My experience has been that many of kids who "cannot be accommodated" in a regular classroom are described as such because it's more convenient for somebody else to throw up a Somebody Else's Problem field rather than encouraging a diverse and tolerant educational environment. It's certainly not universal, but it is definitely common.
posted by spaceman_spiff at 9:42 AM on June 2, 2008
True. But suggestions that inclusion is of "dubious" benefit generally are a preface to continued segregating behavior of a more negative sort. I was mainstreamed through most of my K-12 education, though I did have occasional experiences - both positive and negative - of separated classrooms. My experience has been that many of kids who "cannot be accommodated" in a regular classroom are described as such because it's more convenient for somebody else to throw up a Somebody Else's Problem field rather than encouraging a diverse and tolerant educational environment. It's certainly not universal, but it is definitely common.
posted by spaceman_spiff at 9:42 AM on June 2, 2008
Would those of you calling for the compassionate integration of this child into this classroom feel so charitable if your child had been a daily recipient of this kid's kicks and punches? If your child were in a classroom in which perhaps 30% or 40% of each day’s class time was wasted on one consistently disruptive student?
This is exactly the problem I'm talking about. These children are incredibly disruptive; most teachers want to help them, want to integrate them, want to give both sides the best of all possible worlds. However, it's entirely possible that this school district did not offer the teacher the options and training she required, which was my situation. I was told by my (recreation) admin that I *had* to accept the special needs child, that there was not an aide available, that I was not allowed to complain or talk to the parents; the "training" I was offered was nearly actionable in its cursoriness. If the teacher *had* resources that she didn't use, shame on her. But if her school district is anything like my park district, the concept of "resources" is a bad joke.
posted by nax at 12:33 PM on June 2, 2008
This is exactly the problem I'm talking about. These children are incredibly disruptive; most teachers want to help them, want to integrate them, want to give both sides the best of all possible worlds. However, it's entirely possible that this school district did not offer the teacher the options and training she required, which was my situation. I was told by my (recreation) admin that I *had* to accept the special needs child, that there was not an aide available, that I was not allowed to complain or talk to the parents; the "training" I was offered was nearly actionable in its cursoriness. If the teacher *had* resources that she didn't use, shame on her. But if her school district is anything like my park district, the concept of "resources" is a bad joke.
posted by nax at 12:33 PM on June 2, 2008
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