“You Were, you Are, or you Will Be a danger to national security”… not eh.
January 16, 2010 12:44 PM Subscribe
Adil Charkaoui (born 1974) is a Morocco-born permanent resident of Canada who was arrested by the Canadian government under a security certificate in May 2003.
When he admitted practicing Karate, two government ministers announced it was their "opinion" that he would also "have been trained in such areas as: operating rocket-propelled grenade-launchers, sabotage, urban combat and assassination", and sought to have him detained. The ministers also noted in their accusation that "[i]t was noteworthy that one of those who participated in the hijacking of [the September 11th attacks] had taken martial arts training in preparation..." and suggested that Charkaoui represented a sleeper agent.
Charkaoui was arrested under a security certificate in May 2003, which was co-signed by Solicitor General Wayne Easter, and Immigration Minister Denis Coderre. He was detained without charge or trial in Rivière des prairies Detention Centre. He was released from prison on $50,000 bail on 18 February 2005. His bail conditions include a curfew, electronic monitoring, designated chaperones for leaving his home, restriction to the island of Montreal, 24-hour police access to his home without warrant, and a prohibition on access to the internet, on the use of cell phones and on the use of any telephone except the one in his home.
- In October 2009, Montrealer Adil Charkaoui was declared a free man…
The security certificate process (sections 33 and 77 to 85 of IRPA) was found to be in violation of sections 7, 9 and 10 of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms and ruled unconstitutional by the Supreme Court of Canada in the landmark Charkaoui case on 23 February 2007. The Supreme Court suspended the effect of its ruling for one year. On 22 October 2007, the Conservative government introduced a bill to amend the security certificate process by introducing a "special advocate", lawyers who would be able to view the evidence against the accused. However, these lawyers would be selected by the Justice minister, would only have access to a "summary" of the evidence, and would not be allowed to share this information with the accused, for example in order to ask for clarifications or corrections. The amendments are modeled on a much-criticized process already in use in the United Kingdom. The bill amending Canada's security certificate regime, with support from the Conservatives and the opposition Liberal Party, was passed by Parliament and received Royal Assent in February 2008, just days before the court-imposed deadline.
The Montreal Gazette followed Mr. Charkaoui around for a day during the later stages of his experiences with the Canadian justice system, (while the bail restrictions were still in effect).
The security certificate process (sections 33 and 77 to 85 of IRPA) was found to be in violation of sections 7, 9 and 10 of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms and ruled unconstitutional by the Supreme Court of Canada in the landmark Charkaoui case on 23 February 2007. The Supreme Court suspended the effect of its ruling for one year. On 22 October 2007, the Conservative government introduced a bill to amend the security certificate process by introducing a "special advocate", lawyers who would be able to view the evidence against the accused. However, these lawyers would be selected by the Justice minister, would only have access to a "summary" of the evidence, and would not be allowed to share this information with the accused, for example in order to ask for clarifications or corrections. The amendments are modeled on a much-criticized process already in use in the United Kingdom. The bill amending Canada's security certificate regime, with support from the Conservatives and the opposition Liberal Party, was passed by Parliament and received Royal Assent in February 2008, just days before the court-imposed deadline.
The Montreal Gazette followed Mr. Charkaoui around for a day during the later stages of his experiences with the Canadian justice system, (while the bail restrictions were still in effect).
Actus reus? Mens Rea? Rule of law?
Are you non compos mentis? The only rule in north America is that muslims are persona non grata.
posted by clarknova at 12:57 PM on January 16, 2010 [6 favorites]
Are you non compos mentis? The only rule in north America is that muslims are persona non grata.
posted by clarknova at 12:57 PM on January 16, 2010 [6 favorites]
That is some dojo; not even Cobra Kai had all that shit.
You can't prove that they DIDN'T.
posted by smitt at 1:13 PM on January 16, 2010 [4 favorites]
You can't prove that they DIDN'T.
posted by smitt at 1:13 PM on January 16, 2010 [4 favorites]
Thanks for this, II. I've heard endlessly about Maher Arar and Omar Khadr, but never about this man.
posted by mek at 1:17 PM on January 16, 2010
posted by mek at 1:17 PM on January 16, 2010
The fuck, Canada? And of course, government is prorogued, so there will be no questions, inquiry, or anything for months.
posted by five fresh fish at 1:38 PM on January 16, 2010
posted by five fresh fish at 1:38 PM on January 16, 2010
He needs to sue their asses off
posted by moorooka at 1:42 PM on January 16, 2010 [2 favorites]
posted by moorooka at 1:42 PM on January 16, 2010 [2 favorites]
You're leaving some crucial details here...
1) while he was arrested Canada suffered no terrorist attacks. You need more proof than that?
Then
2) when he was arrested they also found shoes, bottles of shampoo, and underwear in his house.
posted by qvantamon at 2:04 PM on January 16, 2010 [23 favorites]
1) while he was arrested Canada suffered no terrorist attacks. You need more proof than that?
Then
2) when he was arrested they also found shoes, bottles of shampoo, and underwear in his house.
posted by qvantamon at 2:04 PM on January 16, 2010 [23 favorites]
Down with extralegal injustice! Also, can I get the address of that place that trains you how to use rocket propelled grenades? That sounds SWEET!
posted by Salvor Hardin at 2:11 PM on January 16, 2010
posted by Salvor Hardin at 2:11 PM on January 16, 2010
Ix-nay on the asking-ay about aining-tray with ocket-ray oprelled-pray enades-gray. They send you to itmo-Gay.
posted by Babblesort at 2:19 PM on January 16, 2010 [4 favorites]
posted by Babblesort at 2:19 PM on January 16, 2010 [4 favorites]
I love how in doing this to the guy, they ACTUALLY GIVE HIM A REASON to want to blow shit up.
posted by chronkite at 2:25 PM on January 16, 2010 [6 favorites]
posted by chronkite at 2:25 PM on January 16, 2010 [6 favorites]
What? Mathowie would never give me up to the Feds, wouldja Matt? Naw, IIRC the mefi user privacy policy is (I'm paraphrasing here) "You fascists can take our users' info from our cold dead RAID arrays."
'Cause if not, I have some covering of digital tracks to do...
posted by Salvor Hardin at 2:37 PM on January 16, 2010
'Cause if not, I have some covering of digital tracks to do...
posted by Salvor Hardin at 2:37 PM on January 16, 2010
Should I be worried that MeFi has never displayed this sign?
posted by Wufpak at 2:44 PM on January 16, 2010 [2 favorites]
posted by Wufpak at 2:44 PM on January 16, 2010 [2 favorites]
Interestingly enough, "Itmo-Gay" would probably also suffice as a basis for indefinite detention under a Conservative government.
posted by minimii at 2:45 PM on January 16, 2010 [3 favorites]
posted by minimii at 2:45 PM on January 16, 2010 [3 favorites]
I love how the reason for hiding the evidence is "we can't give away our methods or our people". Especially since the United States has used undercover agents for years and managed to do a reasonably good job protecting the identity of those agents and how they got into the places they got into for the information they provided.
And yet because these people are not the Mafia, they're suddenly fifty billion times better at ferreting out this information? I don't buy it. It's a crap situation, a power play by grown-ups who want to pretend to be twelve-year-olds.
posted by mephron at 3:04 PM on January 16, 2010
And yet because these people are not the Mafia, they're suddenly fifty billion times better at ferreting out this information? I don't buy it. It's a crap situation, a power play by grown-ups who want to pretend to be twelve-year-olds.
posted by mephron at 3:04 PM on January 16, 2010
Interestingly enough, "Itmo-Gay" would probably also suffice as a basis for indefinite detention under a Conservative government.
Or, alternately, the name for a BDSM bar. The default safety word there would be CHENEY!!!
posted by y2karl at 3:16 PM on January 16, 2010 [1 favorite]
Or, alternately, the name for a BDSM bar. The default safety word there would be CHENEY!!!
posted by y2karl at 3:16 PM on January 16, 2010 [1 favorite]
Bill C-36: On February 27, 2007, the House of Commons voted 159 - 124 against renewing the provisions, which later led to the expiration of these provisions.
Well at least we're stuck with a minority government for the forseeable future. That makes defeating fascist legislation easy.
posted by Pseudology at 3:26 PM on January 16, 2010
Well at least we're stuck with a minority government for the forseeable future. That makes defeating fascist legislation easy.
posted by Pseudology at 3:26 PM on January 16, 2010
I love how in doing this to the guy, they ACTUALLY GIVE HIM A REASON to want to blow shit up.
Welcome to the consequences of the entire slapdash rendition and secret prison process. If a terrorist did not exist, it would be necessary to invent him...
posted by FatherDagon at 3:42 PM on January 16, 2010 [5 favorites]
Welcome to the consequences of the entire slapdash rendition and secret prison process. If a terrorist did not exist, it would be necessary to invent him...
posted by FatherDagon at 3:42 PM on January 16, 2010 [5 favorites]
> Well at least we're stuck with a minority government for the forseeable future. That makes defeating fascist legislation easy.
Not really. All they need ro do is say the magic words "Confidence Vote". The opposition parties don't have any, after all.
posted by Decimask at 3:48 PM on January 16, 2010 [1 favorite]
Not really. All they need ro do is say the magic words "Confidence Vote". The opposition parties don't have any, after all.
posted by Decimask at 3:48 PM on January 16, 2010 [1 favorite]
I wonder how many times that will happen before compliance with the Rule of Law which has been entrenched in Canada's Constitution will become Adherence Required, rather than the seemingly optional status that has been increasingly given in recent cases- putting aside the vile redaction of civil liberties in this particular case for one second (and to do so any longer than that is... well, missing out on the best part of being a Human Person)- but, if nothing else, will the economic impacts of "shooting first-investigating second, maybe" ever become burdensome enough for a change in (fixing of) policy?
- Check out the Vid of Mr. Charkaoui in the above the fold YT link (and others which are available), he is a kind, smart, compassionate, and also funny man (despite a terrifying and nearly decade long ordeal), I sincerely hope that his name can be swiftly removed from all the negative connotations of "terror", (and that his story gets out an idea of the terror of uncertainty that must surely accompany such treatment and stigmatization. -May he have continued strength so that he can continue (like so many Muslims all around us today, and unlike the theorists who kept him confined) may he continue to use ideas to blow up... our entrenched preconceived notions of 'Enlightenment'. Any of Mr. Charkaoui's students (he is a french teacher) are lucky, in my mind, to have such a teacher!
Unrelated (in that the discussion is mostly related to the UK, yet also firmly related once you examine the "immigration" aspects of Mr. Charkaoui's case), but this side by side book review from the NYROB has multiple things worthy of note to understand and explain why a Person standing firm against institutional-inequality is such a strong message in todays world..
Ramadan writes that his most distinguished defender, the philosopher Charles Taylor, exonerates him from the charge of "doublespeak," arguing, as Ramadan puts it, that his "discourse is clear between two highly ambiguous universes of reference." Ramadan's aim is to "build bridges" between these two universes. As a Muslim scholar and intellectual he applies the discipline of ijtihad (interpretative reasoning); the Arabic term has the same root as jihad, "moral striving"—a word that is often translated, too restrictively, as "holy war."
The most egregious examples of Caldwell's aliens are Muslims, because, as he sees it, they are less susceptible to European cultural influences than other immigrant groups such as Slavs, Sikhs, Hindus, non-Muslim Africans, and African-Caribbeans. He flatly ignores evidence produced by numerous scholars such as Aziz al-Azmeh, Tariq Modood, Philip Lewis, and Jytte Klausen that Muslim identities are shifting to meet changing circumstances, that a majority of younger British Muslims, for example, "share many aspects of popular youth culture with their non-Muslim peers," and that their problem is not so much with the majority culture as with "traditionally-minded parents who seek, usually unsuccessfully, to limit their access to it."
Caldwell pours scorn on writers who emphasize the diversity of the Islamic traditions in Europe. "For all its pleasing glibness," he says, "this harping on diversity is misguided." His reading of Islam takes an essentialist perspective of a primordial religion impervious to change, as if he were oblivious of the way that essentialist views of religion have long been under sustained intellectual attack. No one remotely familiar with the work of scholars such as Aziz al-Azmeh (who ruminates on the diversities of "Islams" and "modernities") or the political scientist Jytte Klausen, whose brilliant work on European Muslims investigates emerging hermeneutics and epistemologies of faith, would dismiss them, as Caldwell does, as "glib." Al-Azmeh and his colleagues provide plenty of support to refute "the cliché," as al-Azmeh writes, "of a homogenous collectivity innocent of modernity, cantankerously or morosely obsessed with prayer, fasting, veiling, medieval social and penal arrangements," while Klausen has demonstrated convincingly that European Muslims are overwhelmingly hostile to extremism, support democratic processes, accept the duties of citizenship, and are evolving distinctively local styles of Muslim identities.
Nor does Caldwell exhibit any familiarity with the rich literature describing the spread of Islam in peripheral cultures such as sub-Saharan Africa or South Asia, where a religion originating in Arabia proved every bit as adept as Christianity in adjusting to local conditions. He has similarly failed to familiarize himself, even superficially, with the vast literature charting the encounter between Islam and modern Western society. In his review of Western attitudes toward Islam he prefers to celebrate the prejudices of writers such as Ernest Renan (in 1883) or Hilaire Belloc (in 1938) than to engage with significant Muslim thinkers such as Muhammad Iqbal, Fazlur Rahman, Muhammed Arkoun, or Abdullahi an-Naim who might challenge his essentialist assumptions. Caldwell's "Islam" owes more to tabloid headlines than to responsible research. To borrow a phrase of Philip Lewis, it exemplifies the need for greater religious literacy in the post–September 11 era.
-also, at this point I would turn to another French Speaker, and his discussion with an anciently young multi-lingual Chomskey (point of interest, chomskey mentions Anarcho-syndicalism, which was recently featured in a different context on the blue)
As Foucault points out here, before we can go about building up a greater society... with more institutional equality, we really need to see, and fully understand the injustices that our institutions are capable of... I am glad that we have SEEN the negative effects of this type of institutional actions; it makes it easier to point to what society does and does not want, and without knowing what we are capable of, there is a good chance of just repeating prior mistakes. Certainly, modern society wants not to use violence or terror to make a point... but also it is important to understand the violence, terror, or coercive power our own votes can potentially hold.
Y2,-last I checked at Cheney's BDSM Bar, there is no safeword... unless it's now "asymmetrical warfare"
posted by infinite intimation at 4:07 PM on January 16, 2010 [6 favorites]
- Check out the Vid of Mr. Charkaoui in the above the fold YT link (and others which are available), he is a kind, smart, compassionate, and also funny man (despite a terrifying and nearly decade long ordeal), I sincerely hope that his name can be swiftly removed from all the negative connotations of "terror", (and that his story gets out an idea of the terror of uncertainty that must surely accompany such treatment and stigmatization. -May he have continued strength so that he can continue (like so many Muslims all around us today, and unlike the theorists who kept him confined) may he continue to use ideas to blow up... our entrenched preconceived notions of 'Enlightenment'. Any of Mr. Charkaoui's students (he is a french teacher) are lucky, in my mind, to have such a teacher!
Unrelated (in that the discussion is mostly related to the UK, yet also firmly related once you examine the "immigration" aspects of Mr. Charkaoui's case), but this side by side book review from the NYROB has multiple things worthy of note to understand and explain why a Person standing firm against institutional-inequality is such a strong message in todays world..
Ramadan writes that his most distinguished defender, the philosopher Charles Taylor, exonerates him from the charge of "doublespeak," arguing, as Ramadan puts it, that his "discourse is clear between two highly ambiguous universes of reference." Ramadan's aim is to "build bridges" between these two universes. As a Muslim scholar and intellectual he applies the discipline of ijtihad (interpretative reasoning); the Arabic term has the same root as jihad, "moral striving"—a word that is often translated, too restrictively, as "holy war."
The most egregious examples of Caldwell's aliens are Muslims, because, as he sees it, they are less susceptible to European cultural influences than other immigrant groups such as Slavs, Sikhs, Hindus, non-Muslim Africans, and African-Caribbeans. He flatly ignores evidence produced by numerous scholars such as Aziz al-Azmeh, Tariq Modood, Philip Lewis, and Jytte Klausen that Muslim identities are shifting to meet changing circumstances, that a majority of younger British Muslims, for example, "share many aspects of popular youth culture with their non-Muslim peers," and that their problem is not so much with the majority culture as with "traditionally-minded parents who seek, usually unsuccessfully, to limit their access to it."
Caldwell pours scorn on writers who emphasize the diversity of the Islamic traditions in Europe. "For all its pleasing glibness," he says, "this harping on diversity is misguided." His reading of Islam takes an essentialist perspective of a primordial religion impervious to change, as if he were oblivious of the way that essentialist views of religion have long been under sustained intellectual attack. No one remotely familiar with the work of scholars such as Aziz al-Azmeh (who ruminates on the diversities of "Islams" and "modernities") or the political scientist Jytte Klausen, whose brilliant work on European Muslims investigates emerging hermeneutics and epistemologies of faith, would dismiss them, as Caldwell does, as "glib." Al-Azmeh and his colleagues provide plenty of support to refute "the cliché," as al-Azmeh writes, "of a homogenous collectivity innocent of modernity, cantankerously or morosely obsessed with prayer, fasting, veiling, medieval social and penal arrangements," while Klausen has demonstrated convincingly that European Muslims are overwhelmingly hostile to extremism, support democratic processes, accept the duties of citizenship, and are evolving distinctively local styles of Muslim identities.
Nor does Caldwell exhibit any familiarity with the rich literature describing the spread of Islam in peripheral cultures such as sub-Saharan Africa or South Asia, where a religion originating in Arabia proved every bit as adept as Christianity in adjusting to local conditions. He has similarly failed to familiarize himself, even superficially, with the vast literature charting the encounter between Islam and modern Western society. In his review of Western attitudes toward Islam he prefers to celebrate the prejudices of writers such as Ernest Renan (in 1883) or Hilaire Belloc (in 1938) than to engage with significant Muslim thinkers such as Muhammad Iqbal, Fazlur Rahman, Muhammed Arkoun, or Abdullahi an-Naim who might challenge his essentialist assumptions. Caldwell's "Islam" owes more to tabloid headlines than to responsible research. To borrow a phrase of Philip Lewis, it exemplifies the need for greater religious literacy in the post–September 11 era.
-also, at this point I would turn to another French Speaker, and his discussion with an anciently young multi-lingual Chomskey (point of interest, chomskey mentions Anarcho-syndicalism, which was recently featured in a different context on the blue)
As Foucault points out here, before we can go about building up a greater society... with more institutional equality, we really need to see, and fully understand the injustices that our institutions are capable of... I am glad that we have SEEN the negative effects of this type of institutional actions; it makes it easier to point to what society does and does not want, and without knowing what we are capable of, there is a good chance of just repeating prior mistakes. Certainly, modern society wants not to use violence or terror to make a point... but also it is important to understand the violence, terror, or coercive power our own votes can potentially hold.
Y2,-last I checked at Cheney's BDSM Bar, there is no safeword... unless it's now "asymmetrical warfare"
posted by infinite intimation at 4:07 PM on January 16, 2010 [6 favorites]
O Canada . . .
I cry for you . . .
Or at least I would if I weren't living in a country that has already subverted its constitution due to exegencies of political interests that should ideally be prosecuted for treasonous actions for such transgressions, but no we have to look forward, regardless of this whole principle of rights which is the only thing that makes us worth preserving in the first place so then again yeah -
I cry for you Canada. I thought you were better than us. And by us, I mean U.S.
posted by yesster at 4:27 PM on January 16, 2010 [1 favorite]
I cry for you . . .
Or at least I would if I weren't living in a country that has already subverted its constitution due to exegencies of political interests that should ideally be prosecuted for treasonous actions for such transgressions, but no we have to look forward, regardless of this whole principle of rights which is the only thing that makes us worth preserving in the first place so then again yeah -
I cry for you Canada. I thought you were better than us. And by us, I mean U.S.
posted by yesster at 4:27 PM on January 16, 2010 [1 favorite]
Meanwhile, we continue to receive a stream of emailed drivel from various sources in Ontario, directed at muslims. I don't understand this, because I always thought Canadians weren't so prone to jump on this kind of bandwagon. Admittedly, my not understanding this is probably why Canadian institutions were able to strip Mr. Charkaoui of his rights so easily.
I worry that Mr. Charkaoui's case is just the tip of the iceberg.
posted by sneebler at 4:28 PM on January 16, 2010
I worry that Mr. Charkaoui's case is just the tip of the iceberg.
posted by sneebler at 4:28 PM on January 16, 2010
> Well at least we're stuck with a minority government for the forseeable future. That makes defeating fascist legislation easy.
Not really. All they need ro do is say the magic words "Confidence Vote". The opposition parties don't have any, after all.
posted by Decimask at 3:48 PM on January 16 [+] [!]
Yea but I'm talking about after the confidence vote too. Between Harper's Conservatives, the Liberals, the Bloc and the NDP there aren't enough votes to create a clear majority as the result of an election.
posted by Pseudology at 4:29 PM on January 16, 2010
Not really. All they need ro do is say the magic words "Confidence Vote". The opposition parties don't have any, after all.
posted by Decimask at 3:48 PM on January 16 [+] [!]
Yea but I'm talking about after the confidence vote too. Between Harper's Conservatives, the Liberals, the Bloc and the NDP there aren't enough votes to create a clear majority as the result of an election.
posted by Pseudology at 4:29 PM on January 16, 2010
Meanwhile, we continue to receive a stream of emailed drivel from various sources in Ontario, directed at muslims. I don't understand this, because I always thought Canadians weren't so prone to jump on this kind of bandwagon. Admittedly, my not understanding this is probably why Canadian institutions were able to strip Mr. Charkaoui of his rights so easily.
I worry that Mr. Charkaoui's case is just the tip of the iceberg.
posted by sneebler at 4:28 PM on January 16 [+] [!]
Why I'm not proud to be Canadian. I'm just happy we have health care... for now.
posted by Pseudology at 4:36 PM on January 16, 2010
I worry that Mr. Charkaoui's case is just the tip of the iceberg.
posted by sneebler at 4:28 PM on January 16 [+] [!]
Why I'm not proud to be Canadian. I'm just happy we have health care... for now.
posted by Pseudology at 4:36 PM on January 16, 2010
Are you trying to get parliament prorogued again before they even come back?
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 5:04 PM on January 16, 2010
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 5:04 PM on January 16, 2010
Oh, I get it. You're trying to destroy the only reasons why people in the States would want to immigrate to frozen-nuts-tundra-land. Interesting...
posted by Civil_Disobedient at 5:32 PM on January 16, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by Civil_Disobedient at 5:32 PM on January 16, 2010 [1 favorite]
I was recently invited to witness my godson's kick-boxing Black Belt examination. There were a dozen candidates, and the routine we witnessed was perhaps the most spectacular thing I have ever seen. The dedication and training exhibited by these candidates was truly spine-tingling. I'm talking 300 finger-and-toe push-ups 5 hours into an exhausting physical test that started with a run up a mountain and back, and finished with the breaking of flaming concrete blocks.
When the examination was over; and the candidates were invited to speak to the assembled crown of friends and relatives as they were awadred their belts, two of the candidates spoke eloquently of how the Dojo had saved their lives, and completely turned them around. One had experienced a home-life that was horrendous in the extreme, and had been living in an apartment the owner built above the gym for the last year. The other had become corrupted by easy money. He'd abandoned the martial arts community, and used his skills to be a tough guy in a gang. When his family abandoned him and left him to the tender mercies of the Juvenile justice system it was his former sensei who bailed him out , and took responsibility for his probation with the Judge.
Both these young men spoke very emotionally about how critical their martial-arts training and commitment to the philosophy of the dojo was to their own self-image and personal sense of worth, and how the discipline of the dojo had shown them how important honour and respect for others and society really was. One of the them had just been accepted into medical school, and the other had been made a partner in the business, and was opening up another Dojo across town.
The sensei who had, and continues to have such a profoundly positive influence on the lives of these and many other young people, had in fact, immigrated to Canada from Iran; and both those honourable and idealistic men described themselves as Persian Canadians.
When, oh when, will politicians understand that we are all human beings, no matter where our parents came from?
posted by PareidoliaticBoy at 5:45 PM on January 16, 2010 [8 favorites]
When the examination was over; and the candidates were invited to speak to the assembled crown of friends and relatives as they were awadred their belts, two of the candidates spoke eloquently of how the Dojo had saved their lives, and completely turned them around. One had experienced a home-life that was horrendous in the extreme, and had been living in an apartment the owner built above the gym for the last year. The other had become corrupted by easy money. He'd abandoned the martial arts community, and used his skills to be a tough guy in a gang. When his family abandoned him and left him to the tender mercies of the Juvenile justice system it was his former sensei who bailed him out , and took responsibility for his probation with the Judge.
Both these young men spoke very emotionally about how critical their martial-arts training and commitment to the philosophy of the dojo was to their own self-image and personal sense of worth, and how the discipline of the dojo had shown them how important honour and respect for others and society really was. One of the them had just been accepted into medical school, and the other had been made a partner in the business, and was opening up another Dojo across town.
The sensei who had, and continues to have such a profoundly positive influence on the lives of these and many other young people, had in fact, immigrated to Canada from Iran; and both those honourable and idealistic men described themselves as Persian Canadians.
When, oh when, will politicians understand that we are all human beings, no matter where our parents came from?
posted by PareidoliaticBoy at 5:45 PM on January 16, 2010 [8 favorites]
The only rule in north America is that muslims aliens, legal or illegal, are persona non grata.
posted by francesca too at 6:02 PM on January 16, 2010
posted by francesca too at 6:02 PM on January 16, 2010
And here I was thinking the States had the monopoly on douchey stuff like this!
posted by Never teh Bride at 6:06 PM on January 16, 2010
posted by Never teh Bride at 6:06 PM on January 16, 2010
two government ministers announced it was their "opinion" that he would also "have been trained in such areas as: operating rocket-propelled grenade-launchers, sabotage, urban combat and assassination"
Did the Supreme Court throw any light on whether this was a known known, known unknown, or unknown unknown? Because I'm finding it hard to categorise this breed of 'fact'.
posted by UbuRoivas at 6:07 PM on January 16, 2010
Did the Supreme Court throw any light on whether this was a known known, known unknown, or unknown unknown? Because I'm finding it hard to categorise this breed of 'fact'.
posted by UbuRoivas at 6:07 PM on January 16, 2010
I was going to say something insightful, but I'm still snickering over "Itmo-Gay".
posted by xedrik at 6:12 PM on January 16, 2010
posted by xedrik at 6:12 PM on January 16, 2010
Ix-nay on the asking-ay about aining-tray with ocket-ray oprelled-pray enades-gray. They send you to itmo-Gay.
[!] ... Pick a reason to flag: ... 'offensive/sexism/racism' ... 'noise' ...
Huh? There doesn't seem to be an 'enemy of the state' flag. I'll take it to the grey. They'll know what to do.
posted by sebastienbailard at 6:38 PM on January 16, 2010
[!] ... Pick a reason to flag: ... 'offensive/sexism/racism' ... 'noise' ...
Huh? There doesn't seem to be an 'enemy of the state' flag. I'll take it to the grey. They'll know what to do.
posted by sebastienbailard at 6:38 PM on January 16, 2010
When he admitted practicing Karate, two government ministers announced it was their "opinion" that he would also "have been trained in such areas as: operating rocket-propelled grenade-launchers, sabotage, urban combat and assassination"
Man, and I thought that Iron Palm was some hot shit.
posted by Halloween Jack at 7:29 PM on January 16, 2010
Man, and I thought that Iron Palm was some hot shit.
posted by Halloween Jack at 7:29 PM on January 16, 2010
Horrible. I hope he can move on.
When someone is ground to bits in front of your eyes, at least there is a more or less healthy fight-or-flight response to mobilize you. But to hear about it after the fact is just paralyzing.
posted by eeeeeez at 7:33 PM on January 16, 2010
When someone is ground to bits in front of your eyes, at least there is a more or less healthy fight-or-flight response to mobilize you. But to hear about it after the fact is just paralyzing.
posted by eeeeeez at 7:33 PM on January 16, 2010
Well, try again:
We are people defending the principles of freedom and equality in a secular society. I criticize political Islam and its political manifestations. No democratic country can take this right away from anyone.
Plays both ways, don't it?
posted by eegphalanges at 8:55 PM on January 16, 2010 [1 favorite]
We are people defending the principles of freedom and equality in a secular society. I criticize political Islam and its political manifestations. No democratic country can take this right away from anyone.
Plays both ways, don't it?
posted by eegphalanges at 8:55 PM on January 16, 2010 [1 favorite]
See, the problem isn't the USA, the problem is white people.
posted by Stonestock Relentless at 10:09 PM on January 16, 2010
posted by Stonestock Relentless at 10:09 PM on January 16, 2010
One Year
Posted on 21-05-2004 | Tags: Statements by Charkaoui
by Adil Charkaoui (translated by Ehab Lotayef)
One year behind bars!
Missed at least 365 kisses from Khawla
Countless family gatherings. Foods I never touched.
One year behind bars!
Sleepless nights. Endless snow and endless stress.
Long summer days. Sunsets that lost their charm.
And it goes on…
Hearing the same words over and over again:
“National security before individual rights.”
“It's no criminal case. It's immigration.”
“Prove your innocence and we'll let you go.”
How?
When charges are secret.
Informers anonymous.
And all evidence hidden.
Right of appeal? That's only for criminals.
Is presumption of innocence reserved for sponsorship scandals?
Isn't the same Codere involved there?
Has Inquisition and Citizenship Canada ever heard of the charter?
Tonight, one more time,
A two year old girl will sleep without her father
And a baby, nine months old, will be missing his dad
Ask yourself why!
posted by infinite intimation at 10:49 PM on January 16, 2010 [2 favorites]
Posted on 21-05-2004 | Tags: Statements by Charkaoui
by Adil Charkaoui (translated by Ehab Lotayef)
One year behind bars!
Missed at least 365 kisses from Khawla
Countless family gatherings. Foods I never touched.
One year behind bars!
Sleepless nights. Endless snow and endless stress.
Long summer days. Sunsets that lost their charm.
And it goes on…
Hearing the same words over and over again:
“National security before individual rights.”
“It's no criminal case. It's immigration.”
“Prove your innocence and we'll let you go.”
How?
When charges are secret.
Informers anonymous.
And all evidence hidden.
Right of appeal? That's only for criminals.
Is presumption of innocence reserved for sponsorship scandals?
Isn't the same Codere involved there?
Has Inquisition and Citizenship Canada ever heard of the charter?
Tonight, one more time,
A two year old girl will sleep without her father
And a baby, nine months old, will be missing his dad
Ask yourself why!
posted by infinite intimation at 10:49 PM on January 16, 2010 [2 favorites]
Oh, I get it. You're trying to destroy the only reasons why people in the States would want to immigrate to frozen-nuts-tundra-land. Interesting...
Hate to break it to you, but security certificates have been around since the late 70's under our immigration law ... They and Them have been plotting against the citizenry for a long time.
posted by squeak at 11:05 PM on January 16, 2010
Hate to break it to you, but security certificates have been around since the late 70's under our immigration law ... They and Them have been plotting against the citizenry for a long time.
posted by squeak at 11:05 PM on January 16, 2010
"...not eh."?
I don't get it.
See, the problem isn't the USA, the problem is white people.
No, the problem is stupid people.
posted by RockCorpse at 2:27 AM on January 17, 2010
I don't get it.
See, the problem isn't the USA, the problem is white people.
No, the problem is stupid people.
posted by RockCorpse at 2:27 AM on January 17, 2010
Fellow Canadians, if you think your government is going to do anything for you if your skin happens to be the wrong shade and some white guy happens to denounce you, you are sadly mistaken.
This story is not unique. As others have pointed out, there have been some high-profile case we have heard about. This only leads me to speculate on how many more we will hear about years from now.
I've had just about had my fill of what these jokers have done to the Pearson and Trudeau legacies in my lifetime.
posted by clvrmnky at 8:04 AM on January 17, 2010 [4 favorites]
This story is not unique. As others have pointed out, there have been some high-profile case we have heard about. This only leads me to speculate on how many more we will hear about years from now.
I've had just about had my fill of what these jokers have done to the Pearson and Trudeau legacies in my lifetime.
posted by clvrmnky at 8:04 AM on January 17, 2010 [4 favorites]
The problem is defining entire groups as "the problem".
posted by rocket88 at 8:06 AM on January 17, 2010
posted by rocket88 at 8:06 AM on January 17, 2010
The problem is the problem. We're on the wrong side of history here, folks. But it's all water under the bridge... of our lives.
posted by mek at 12:18 PM on January 17, 2010
posted by mek at 12:18 PM on January 17, 2010
Second open letter by Adil Charkaoui, 20 December 2004
This is neither a Kafka novel nor a mediocre tale unfolding in a banana republic, but quite simply the state of human rights in the very best country in the world.
The judgment on the constitutionality of security certificates, made public on 10 December 2004, international human rights day, is a revealing illustration of post-September 11th Canada.
In this decision, decried by all human rights organizations and by an impressive number of Canadian jurists (more than 60 coast to coast), the three Federal Court of Appeal judges stated that security certificates – a measure of the Immigration Law in which the presumption of innocence does not exist, part or all of the evidence is withheld, hearsay is accepted, counter-examination of witnesses refused, the right of appeal denied, and closed sessions between judges and attorneys are ready currency – are “an exceptional albeit permissible derogation.” 1
...
In denying a Permanent Resident, whose parents and children are Canadian citizens and who has lived in the country for ten years, the right to be judged by the same standards of justice as other inhabitants of the country, the Federal Court of Appeal embraces this formula of George Orwell in Animal Farm, “all the animals are equal, but certain are more equal than others.”
1 Extract from the Federal Court of Appeal decision.
(I am so very glad this man is free, and doubt he will see this, but sincerely I hope he will speak further about his ideas for solutions, and directions for positive communities for tomorrows Canada... his eloquence, and personality can help open up dialogue, (interfaith, and inter-culture... Mr. Charkaoui, you have so much to offer Canada, please do not let this experience foil you from participating in the society towards the future.)
This man knows more about, and cares more about protecting the nation of Canada, and it's system of Laws, and the Rule of Law, more than so many people who would say without thinking of who it could impact and effect, security is always needed, even if it means giving our protecting class some of our liberty... which always gets me, it's never those who will have their rights taken away who vote to steal Freedoms and Rights, it is those who know they will lose nothing. During this whole nearly decade long situation, from his initial arrest, to his last day under the big brother home jail kit, as he removed his tracking anklet, Mr. Charkaoui has stood BY Canada, I hope that now (since not before) Canada can look at the values which let such a country exist, and stand by him… If a man imprisoned and alienated from his rights can continue to believe in Canada (and rightly so, as he IS now free. Though there are many more in the SAME situation as Mr. Charkaoui, equally innocent, equally alienated from their rights.) it is SURELY within the reach of the rest of Canada to stand firmly by him, and the millions of others who face the terror of similar treatment.
Which, btw, is WHY there is an entrenched Charter, the Charter would not allow any of the things in that link to what seems to be an Austrian Nationalist Party FPÖ or BZÖ spokesperson claims to fear coming soon (which isn't about a reasoned critique of "political" Islam, but rather seems to resemble a cut and paste from an assemblage of BNP flyers, or at least some of their taglines (btw, if she is truly worried about "freedom slipping away" from Austria, I would worry first about the 36 % of Austria voted for a party, the leader of which called Winston Churchill a "war criminal" (despite Churchill personally insisting the Independence of Austria be a common goal of the wartime alliance), and the approximately 1/4 who have a positive view of many of the 'accomplishments' and memories of the Third Reich... the "they" are coming to democratically steal away our "freedom" story is kinda actually crazy. (upon poking around that site... DEBBIE SCHLUSSEL posts there!!! (she was one of the louder people who made some really ridiculous statements about how Mr. Obama was obviously a secret Muslim, and some stuff that was way more convoluted than I could or would want to follow... back during the 08 election)
Canada has entrenched civil rights and liberties into their Constitution (The Right to Life, Liberty, and Security of the Person)... These, and the other codified, entrenched Rights could not simply be removed... even if All the Muslims in Canada were this evil cabal that the interviewee in that link expresses, moved to strategic places and voted for "their" candidates... this simply is unrealistic... but EVEN in this imaginary, and entirely FALSE scenario... there is NO way that the horrible things she accuses Muslims not only of believing in, but of being violently supportive of...could happen (If the interviewee has a problem with the laws her nazi-nostalgia-loving government has enacted... she should lobby her government to change that, and bring forth freedom... not go looking for Muslims to blame for that situation.) But then again, logic probably hasn’t shaken any of their views ever before… and she isn't looking for a more free society, but rather a more "pure" society... so why would logic or compassion do anything to affect her ideas today.
Anyway, dealing with BNP idea based web pages before the next world war comes, when these people rise up and do to the Muslim communities in their midst what was done to Jewish communities 70 years ago raises my blood pressure needlessly, and I would rather spend my time finding people who think constructively to solve problems before we get to that point (rather than stating at the outset that they simply don't care what anyone says)... to avoid that particularly scary, yet realistic possibility... there has been trending towards support for ultra right wing nationalism, and hatred for minorities, and it has been pushed often under the guise of "anti-evil-Muslims" (which is interesting because greater than 99.999999999% of the more than 1 billion Muslims are against those who do such acts in the name of their Faith also... so when she says that they all really believe in those things, it was confusing ) the dehumanization of Muslims today is almost a carbon copy of the rhetoric used by Nationalists in the lead-up to the evils of the holocaust at the middle of the last century... (no I did not just break Goodwins', the resurgence of people who are neo-nationalists around Europe do deserve special attention when they repeat the same actions of choosing a Semitic group to dehumanize and defame however.)
In this case it really only works the one way, but truly, and honestly, no offense intended to you for posting that, Shirley it was a joke I just didn't get, or to point out that she was basically going line for line with some favorite untruths and other outright lies in order to further an agenda of hatred (or at the least unthinking prejudicial intolerance.) Thank you for bringing that little gem of hatred to light (like I said before, when we know the evils of particular ideas, it is oh so much easier to counter them with reality.
As depressingly anti-Canada as this thread may seem, Canada is a GREAT nation (as many have pointed out). Full of diversity, and compassion, and great people, and perhaps one of the worlds greatest codified Constitutional protections of civil liberties and civil Rights around; only by noting the occasional failings of ourselves, and those elected, can we point to where to go to fix situations of injustice, not only is Justice possible in Canada... it is literally entrenched within the very fiber of the nations constitution...The Canadian Experiment is still alive.
We've got an accidental leakage of reality into operation Red Toques, Can we get a memory hole over here in aisle blue?
These should be warning signs certainly... but don't abandon the Canadian Experiment yet, (*you do all know that Canada is just the United States' Skinner Box though, right? opps, said too much, now there's gonna be troub...) if there was ever a Country that will accept great change, like the health care mentioned above, from the Real-Canadians I know (and those voicing concern here), it's apparent Canada is ready, and charged up for some return to compassion and co-operation that it has such a reputation for. (just don't watch the CTV "we believe... do You?" ads for the Olympics, or you might feel ill.)
posted by infinite intimation at 1:59 PM on January 17, 2010 [2 favorites]
This is neither a Kafka novel nor a mediocre tale unfolding in a banana republic, but quite simply the state of human rights in the very best country in the world.
The judgment on the constitutionality of security certificates, made public on 10 December 2004, international human rights day, is a revealing illustration of post-September 11th Canada.
In this decision, decried by all human rights organizations and by an impressive number of Canadian jurists (more than 60 coast to coast), the three Federal Court of Appeal judges stated that security certificates – a measure of the Immigration Law in which the presumption of innocence does not exist, part or all of the evidence is withheld, hearsay is accepted, counter-examination of witnesses refused, the right of appeal denied, and closed sessions between judges and attorneys are ready currency – are “an exceptional albeit permissible derogation.” 1
...
In denying a Permanent Resident, whose parents and children are Canadian citizens and who has lived in the country for ten years, the right to be judged by the same standards of justice as other inhabitants of the country, the Federal Court of Appeal embraces this formula of George Orwell in Animal Farm, “all the animals are equal, but certain are more equal than others.”
1 Extract from the Federal Court of Appeal decision.
(I am so very glad this man is free, and doubt he will see this, but sincerely I hope he will speak further about his ideas for solutions, and directions for positive communities for tomorrows Canada... his eloquence, and personality can help open up dialogue, (interfaith, and inter-culture... Mr. Charkaoui, you have so much to offer Canada, please do not let this experience foil you from participating in the society towards the future.)
This man knows more about, and cares more about protecting the nation of Canada, and it's system of Laws, and the Rule of Law, more than so many people who would say without thinking of who it could impact and effect, security is always needed, even if it means giving our protecting class some of our liberty... which always gets me, it's never those who will have their rights taken away who vote to steal Freedoms and Rights, it is those who know they will lose nothing. During this whole nearly decade long situation, from his initial arrest, to his last day under the big brother home jail kit, as he removed his tracking anklet, Mr. Charkaoui has stood BY Canada, I hope that now (since not before) Canada can look at the values which let such a country exist, and stand by him… If a man imprisoned and alienated from his rights can continue to believe in Canada (and rightly so, as he IS now free. Though there are many more in the SAME situation as Mr. Charkaoui, equally innocent, equally alienated from their rights.) it is SURELY within the reach of the rest of Canada to stand firmly by him, and the millions of others who face the terror of similar treatment.
Which, btw, is WHY there is an entrenched Charter, the Charter would not allow any of the things in that link to what seems to be an Austrian Nationalist Party FPÖ or BZÖ spokesperson claims to fear coming soon (which isn't about a reasoned critique of "political" Islam, but rather seems to resemble a cut and paste from an assemblage of BNP flyers, or at least some of their taglines (btw, if she is truly worried about "freedom slipping away" from Austria, I would worry first about the 36 % of Austria voted for a party, the leader of which called Winston Churchill a "war criminal" (despite Churchill personally insisting the Independence of Austria be a common goal of the wartime alliance), and the approximately 1/4 who have a positive view of many of the 'accomplishments' and memories of the Third Reich... the "they" are coming to democratically steal away our "freedom" story is kinda actually crazy. (upon poking around that site... DEBBIE SCHLUSSEL posts there!!! (she was one of the louder people who made some really ridiculous statements about how Mr. Obama was obviously a secret Muslim, and some stuff that was way more convoluted than I could or would want to follow... back during the 08 election)
Canada has entrenched civil rights and liberties into their Constitution (The Right to Life, Liberty, and Security of the Person)... These, and the other codified, entrenched Rights could not simply be removed... even if All the Muslims in Canada were this evil cabal that the interviewee in that link expresses, moved to strategic places and voted for "their" candidates... this simply is unrealistic... but EVEN in this imaginary, and entirely FALSE scenario... there is NO way that the horrible things she accuses Muslims not only of believing in, but of being violently supportive of...could happen (If the interviewee has a problem with the laws her nazi-nostalgia-loving government has enacted... she should lobby her government to change that, and bring forth freedom... not go looking for Muslims to blame for that situation.) But then again, logic probably hasn’t shaken any of their views ever before… and she isn't looking for a more free society, but rather a more "pure" society... so why would logic or compassion do anything to affect her ideas today.
Anyway, dealing with BNP idea based web pages before the next world war comes, when these people rise up and do to the Muslim communities in their midst what was done to Jewish communities 70 years ago raises my blood pressure needlessly, and I would rather spend my time finding people who think constructively to solve problems before we get to that point (rather than stating at the outset that they simply don't care what anyone says)... to avoid that particularly scary, yet realistic possibility... there has been trending towards support for ultra right wing nationalism, and hatred for minorities, and it has been pushed often under the guise of "anti-evil-Muslims" (which is interesting because greater than 99.999999999% of the more than 1 billion Muslims are against those who do such acts in the name of their Faith also... so when she says that they all really believe in those things, it was confusing ) the dehumanization of Muslims today is almost a carbon copy of the rhetoric used by Nationalists in the lead-up to the evils of the holocaust at the middle of the last century... (no I did not just break Goodwins', the resurgence of people who are neo-nationalists around Europe do deserve special attention when they repeat the same actions of choosing a Semitic group to dehumanize and defame however.)
In this case it really only works the one way, but truly, and honestly, no offense intended to you for posting that, Shirley it was a joke I just didn't get, or to point out that she was basically going line for line with some favorite untruths and other outright lies in order to further an agenda of hatred (or at the least unthinking prejudicial intolerance.) Thank you for bringing that little gem of hatred to light (like I said before, when we know the evils of particular ideas, it is oh so much easier to counter them with reality.
As depressingly anti-Canada as this thread may seem, Canada is a GREAT nation (as many have pointed out). Full of diversity, and compassion, and great people, and perhaps one of the worlds greatest codified Constitutional protections of civil liberties and civil Rights around; only by noting the occasional failings of ourselves, and those elected, can we point to where to go to fix situations of injustice, not only is Justice possible in Canada... it is literally entrenched within the very fiber of the nations constitution...The Canadian Experiment is still alive.
We've got an accidental leakage of reality into operation Red Toques, Can we get a memory hole over here in aisle blue?
These should be warning signs certainly... but don't abandon the Canadian Experiment yet, (*you do all know that Canada is just the United States' Skinner Box though, right?
posted by infinite intimation at 1:59 PM on January 17, 2010 [2 favorites]
To address the suggestion that erosion of a free society is a Public Good, simply because there is an example of people or a person who have turned to embrace violent ideas, I feel it it shouldn't seem like a point has been made which can not be refuted; greater than One percent(Indicating it is not a statistical anomaly) for GROUPS, with the sole goal of perpetuating prejudice, and selling cooperation towards an ideology of hatred, and fear. But it doesn't mean 'we' become blindly prejudiced to "white" folks. So why is that simply ok to do so with Muslims? This is illogical. If it is white or Christian sources for violence (I am not suggesting that we turn our hunt for Muslims into a hunt for Christians... this is just for some subjective context), we are told, this is an isolated individual; if it is a Muslim who commits crime, it is seemingly Evil Global Islam. - A verifiably stupid anecdote from myself, simply intended as food for thought; as an experiment with Airport Security and a Bible, intentionally marked to several really violent passages, marked at several places to kill the _____ , lots of smiting & smote 'n, but yet not verboten; the reaction of Border Patrol: Airport Squad? Reading of several lines, Smiles, a nod, and a "glad to see yr' reading this" (it should be noted that I feel that the violence of the Bible being pointed out does not mean "the Bible is evil"... it simply means that I feel Humans are funny, and must see violence and prejudice spelled out in letters in order to be able to state that "I do not want that prejudice to be a part of Me". The Bible contains many lessons to a person who comes to it without the idea that it is an evil in society, to a person who comes with an open mind, and the ability to read both lines and what is between them. -Context. It's Key.
Would this have been the the same reaction if said book was a Qur'an?
Whether an "official" Hate group, or just people who did not learn compassion as a basis for their humanity, or those who are inclined towards violent expression of their shared hatred, either way, Non-Muslim are killing people in the very same manners as events defined as "terrorists".
Yet we see Muslim, Muslim, Muslim, watch out for 'them'- everyday... I would ask why there has been no inclusion of White Terror groups in the 'War on Terror', unless rather than a true war on Terror, what we have is a thinly veiled institutionalization of simply the most recent and popular form of hate group.
Just because it is a Tyranny of the Majority, does not mean it is less a pernicious thing than a flat out old style Tyranny of the Tyrant.
posted by infinite intimation at 1:20 PM on January 19, 2010
Would this have been the the same reaction if said book was a Qur'an?
Whether an "official" Hate group, or just people who did not learn compassion as a basis for their humanity, or those who are inclined towards violent expression of their shared hatred, either way, Non-Muslim are killing people in the very same manners as events defined as "terrorists".
Yet we see Muslim, Muslim, Muslim, watch out for 'them'- everyday... I would ask why there has been no inclusion of White Terror groups in the 'War on Terror', unless rather than a true war on Terror, what we have is a thinly veiled institutionalization of simply the most recent and popular form of hate group.
Just because it is a Tyranny of the Majority, does not mean it is less a pernicious thing than a flat out old style Tyranny of the Tyrant.
posted by infinite intimation at 1:20 PM on January 19, 2010
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This thread has been archived and is closed to new comments
(extra-ordinary punishment for someone never charged, accused, or tried for ANY crime or Criminal act? Actus reus and Mens Rea, Rule of Law… we keep saying those words… but do we really understand what they mean.)
(More more inside)
The organization which has supported and helped fight on behalf of Canadians who were facing these secret accusations and innuendo.
Some of the significant court battles for Mr. Charkaoui.
Some Audio & Video resources with information on Security Certificates, Mr. Charkaoui and others who faced similar accusations.
This blog follows Canadians imprisoned in cases relating to and based on the modern evolution of the Security Certificate, “Terrorism” policy related questions (and their suggested solutions).
Asked by a reporter "what more he wanted" Adil said "Justice!". He went on to explain that he wanted, above all, to clear his name.
The other Arrars…
Mr. Charkaoui is not the first or only to bring government innuendo and secret, falsified, or Islamophobic accusations to light…
(Previously related),
…nor the last; as the blogonet might say; open trials, open accusations, and open processes for the application of law and justice… or it didn’t happen.
What is the ontogeny of these experiences? Once the USA got one, within months, everybody wanted one of their own set of laws that made exceptional claims of the authority to contravene the Supreme Law of the Land… Bill C-36 was Canada’s version.
posted by infinite intimation at 12:44 PM on January 16, 2010 [1 favorite]