Aktiv Grotesk
July 7, 2010 10:54 AM Subscribe
As soon as it can be typed on a Dvorak keyboard, let me know.
posted by yhbc at 10:59 AM on July 7, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by yhbc at 10:59 AM on July 7, 2010 [1 favorite]
With a name like Smucker's Aktiv Grotesk, it's got to be good!
(looks at font)
Meh.
posted by davejay at 11:00 AM on July 7, 2010
(looks at font)
Meh.
posted by davejay at 11:00 AM on July 7, 2010
Typo-nhysterical .
posted by chavenet at 11:05 AM on July 7, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by chavenet at 11:05 AM on July 7, 2010 [1 favorite]
It looks like a generic grotesk typeface with touches of Helvetica. Is there someone with more typographic knowledge who can say what is technically novel about this?
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 11:06 AM on July 7, 2010
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 11:06 AM on July 7, 2010
It looks so much like Helvetica that everybody will think you are using Helvetica but YOU will know that, in fact, YOU AREN'T! That's catharsis!
posted by monospace at 11:08 AM on July 7, 2010 [13 favorites]
posted by monospace at 11:08 AM on July 7, 2010 [13 favorites]
My latest project will probably asplode his head. I'm going to take an (open source) old-style numeral font and make a monospace version of it so I can use it in my xterm.
WORLDS ARE COLLIDING!
posted by DU at 11:09 AM on July 7, 2010 [1 favorite]
WORLDS ARE COLLIDING!
posted by DU at 11:09 AM on July 7, 2010 [1 favorite]
i only use avenir
posted by parmanparman at 11:12 AM on July 7, 2010 [2 favorites]
posted by parmanparman at 11:12 AM on July 7, 2010 [2 favorites]
If your font isn't designed by a perv, you aren't trying hard enough.
posted by poe at 11:12 AM on July 7, 2010 [5 favorites]
posted by poe at 11:12 AM on July 7, 2010 [5 favorites]
There are plenty of people who think Helvetica is boring, but until now I'd never known one who thought it was poorly designed.
posted by echo target at 11:16 AM on July 7, 2010
posted by echo target at 11:16 AM on July 7, 2010
OH SNAP!! IN YER FACE, HELVETICA!! BUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUURN!
posted by spicynuts at 11:16 AM on July 7, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by spicynuts at 11:16 AM on July 7, 2010 [1 favorite]
It's better than Arial.
posted by Faint of Butt at 11:18 AM on July 7, 2010
posted by Faint of Butt at 11:18 AM on July 7, 2010
In before Comic Sans!
posted by shakespeherian at 11:22 AM on July 7, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by shakespeherian at 11:22 AM on July 7, 2010 [1 favorite]
It's actually a typeface. Not a font.
posted by Ratio at 11:31 AM on July 7, 2010 [3 favorites]
posted by Ratio at 11:31 AM on July 7, 2010 [3 favorites]
To counterbalance the Helvetica Blue, I offer some free open-license OTF font collections:
- The League of Moveable Type
- FDI Fonts
- The TeX Gyre Collection (here's their Helvetica)
- Red Hat's Liberation Set
- An updated list of free, embeddable fonts from WebFonts
WTFont?
posted by Elmore at 11:35 AM on July 7, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by Elmore at 11:35 AM on July 7, 2010 [1 favorite]
Also, also, also, also, and more where those came from.
posted by Civil_Disobedient at 11:36 AM on July 7, 2010 [12 favorites]
posted by Civil_Disobedient at 11:36 AM on July 7, 2010 [12 favorites]
Like many other typefaces, there is nothing inherently bad about Helvetica; it's mostly in the way people use it (like, for everything all the time) that the affront lies.
posted by Mister_A at 11:39 AM on July 7, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by Mister_A at 11:39 AM on July 7, 2010 [1 favorite]
I use 12 pt. Courier for everything. Everything! Everything all the time!
Prepare to be affronted!
(Mostly true.)
posted by cjorgensen at 11:46 AM on July 7, 2010 [1 favorite]
Prepare to be affronted!
(Mostly true.)
posted by cjorgensen at 11:46 AM on July 7, 2010 [1 favorite]
How Can You Use It Wrongly?
I've seen it in books. It has no place there.
(Pictured, of course, in a book...on a website that uses Helvetica Neue as the default font in its stylesheet)
posted by schmod at 11:48 AM on July 7, 2010
I've seen it in books. It has no place there.
(Pictured, of course, in a book...on a website that uses Helvetica Neue as the default font in its stylesheet)
posted by schmod at 11:48 AM on July 7, 2010
schmod,
That's not Helvetica. That's this dude's awesome "Helvetica-killer."
Designed by SEA Design and set in Aktiv Grotesk.
It looks exactly like Helvetica to me, and I'm a graphic designer. I'm sure there's some differences if you overlaid them on top of each other, but it looks way more like Helvetica than, for instance, Univers.
posted by designbot at 11:59 AM on July 7, 2010
That's not Helvetica. That's this dude's awesome "Helvetica-killer."
Designed by SEA Design and set in Aktiv Grotesk.
It looks exactly like Helvetica to me, and I'm a graphic designer. I'm sure there's some differences if you overlaid them on top of each other, but it looks way more like Helvetica than, for instance, Univers.
posted by designbot at 11:59 AM on July 7, 2010
Okay, I set some type in Helvetica Neue and now I can see the difference. It looks like he's gone in Adywan-style and fixed tiny things that bugged him about Helvetica that most people will never notice.
I hate to admit it, but I do kind of like his font better, now that I compare.
posted by designbot at 12:10 PM on July 7, 2010
I hate to admit it, but I do kind of like his font better, now that I compare.
posted by designbot at 12:10 PM on July 7, 2010
I'm a fan of Calibri. Seriously.
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 12:16 PM on July 7, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 12:16 PM on July 7, 2010 [1 favorite]
I hate to admit it, but I do kind of like his font better, now that I compare.
Yeah I'm not sure what's with the tiny hint of a tail on the lowercase Helvetica a now that I compare it to his. Although I'm not sure about his lowercase t.
Also between the two typefaces, whichever comma/apostrophe I am currently looking at is my least favorite.
posted by shakespeherian at 12:19 PM on July 7, 2010
Yeah I'm not sure what's with the tiny hint of a tail on the lowercase Helvetica a now that I compare it to his. Although I'm not sure about his lowercase t.
Also between the two typefaces, whichever comma/apostrophe I am currently looking at is my least favorite.
posted by shakespeherian at 12:19 PM on July 7, 2010
I am always amazed by the amount of energy type fetishists put into their loathing of particular fonts. Like hipsters, they spend most of their time hating the most ubiquitous and popular (helvetica, comic sans, etc). Like hipsters, they have little to no effect on the rest of us. Like hipsters, although they can and do affect advertising and print media, their effects are largely inconsequential.
posted by IAmBroom at 12:25 PM on July 7, 2010
posted by IAmBroom at 12:25 PM on July 7, 2010
I like Arial and use 10pt for all my documents.
(Whatever, lal la la and I got an A in typography a hundred years ago *rassssssssp*)
posted by infini at 12:43 PM on July 7, 2010
(Whatever, lal la la and I got an A in typography a hundred years ago *rassssssssp*)
posted by infini at 12:43 PM on July 7, 2010
My God, I'm all for aesthetics, but life is too short to be bothered by any font not named comic sans.
posted by boubelium at 12:47 PM on July 7, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by boubelium at 12:47 PM on July 7, 2010 [1 favorite]
So, IAmBroom, how do you really feel about hipsters?
posted by defenestration at 12:48 PM on July 7, 2010
posted by defenestration at 12:48 PM on July 7, 2010
Like hipsters, they should be broiled and served with a nice garlic sauce.
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 12:54 PM on July 7, 2010
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 12:54 PM on July 7, 2010
Like hipsters, they are an ill-defined term that never applies to any specific people but rather allows me to complain about the perceived authenticity of strangers.
posted by shakespeherian at 12:57 PM on July 7, 2010 [9 favorites]
posted by shakespeherian at 12:57 PM on July 7, 2010 [9 favorites]
Sometimes I encounter something and find the only adequate response is a sort of muttered "Jesus Christ," deployed in the cynically flat, despondent cadence and tone of Richard Milhous Nixon.
Other times, things seem to deserve the horrified, clinched grimace of Charlton Heston's "My God."
To the non-expert it may seem I'm splitting hairs, but it's important to know when to use which and, on those rare occasions, when to use both.
posted by xod at 12:58 PM on July 7, 2010 [5 favorites]
Other times, things seem to deserve the horrified, clinched grimace of Charlton Heston's "My God."
To the non-expert it may seem I'm splitting hairs, but it's important to know when to use which and, on those rare occasions, when to use both.
posted by xod at 12:58 PM on July 7, 2010 [5 favorites]
but life is too short to be bothered by any font not named comic sans.
Or its brother Marker Felt, which Apple uses in places that Microsoft would use Comic Sans, but it still sucks.
posted by smackfu at 1:04 PM on July 7, 2010
Or its brother Marker Felt, which Apple uses in places that Microsoft would use Comic Sans, but it still sucks.
posted by smackfu at 1:04 PM on July 7, 2010
My God, I'm all for aesthetics, but life is too short to be bothered by any font not named comic sans.
Spoken like someone who has never heard the dread name Papyrus, which was designed for, and should be confined to, use on Thai take-out joint menus.
posted by Mister_A at 1:23 PM on July 7, 2010 [3 favorites]
Spoken like someone who has never heard the dread name Papyrus, which was designed for, and should be confined to, use on Thai take-out joint menus.
posted by Mister_A at 1:23 PM on July 7, 2010 [3 favorites]
Although I'm not sure about his lowercase t.
Agreed. The kerning on it is really crowded, as it is on a few other characters. The proportions and kerning of the question mark are kind of noisy, too.
I keep seeing glaring open or crowded areas in the type set in the magazine. The whole thing is kerned badly, or a bit too extreme, like someone went in and nudged each letter around in the wrong direction without any concept of typographical flow. Seeing a whole block of the stuff is bugging the crap out of the reclusive typographer who lives in my hindbrain.
A well kerned block of text is invisible. The whole point of a Latin typeface is for it to flow immediately from individual characters into words, paragraphs and pages and not get in the way of communication. You're not supposed to "notice" it. It can be beautiful, poetic, illustrative - but it shouldn't really leave it's own taste or color to an everyday layout. If the content is the actual edible portion of the metaphorical meal of a layout - the typeface is the plate, not the food.
There are exceptions to this where a font can set the mood for, say, a historical article or brochure - or for a futuristic one. But for workaday layouts it should be more or less invisible. It's not hard nor clever to force someone to notice what font you're using. Can you imagine trying to read an entire book or magazine article printed in Aktiv?
Worse, the heavy weight italic version looks almost exactly like the Microsoft text logo, which I believe is in Arial or some version of it, which is itself a bad version of Helvetica.
Univers is pretty cool, though.
No, I'm not a Helvetica-phile. It's a well behaved, good-looking font but that's about it.
posted by loquacious at 1:24 PM on July 7, 2010
Agreed. The kerning on it is really crowded, as it is on a few other characters. The proportions and kerning of the question mark are kind of noisy, too.
I keep seeing glaring open or crowded areas in the type set in the magazine. The whole thing is kerned badly, or a bit too extreme, like someone went in and nudged each letter around in the wrong direction without any concept of typographical flow. Seeing a whole block of the stuff is bugging the crap out of the reclusive typographer who lives in my hindbrain.
A well kerned block of text is invisible. The whole point of a Latin typeface is for it to flow immediately from individual characters into words, paragraphs and pages and not get in the way of communication. You're not supposed to "notice" it. It can be beautiful, poetic, illustrative - but it shouldn't really leave it's own taste or color to an everyday layout. If the content is the actual edible portion of the metaphorical meal of a layout - the typeface is the plate, not the food.
There are exceptions to this where a font can set the mood for, say, a historical article or brochure - or for a futuristic one. But for workaday layouts it should be more or less invisible. It's not hard nor clever to force someone to notice what font you're using. Can you imagine trying to read an entire book or magazine article printed in Aktiv?
Worse, the heavy weight italic version looks almost exactly like the Microsoft text logo, which I believe is in Arial or some version of it, which is itself a bad version of Helvetica.
Univers is pretty cool, though.
No, I'm not a Helvetica-phile. It's a well behaved, good-looking font but that's about it.
posted by loquacious at 1:24 PM on July 7, 2010
Methinks thou doth protest too much, et cetera et cetera
But I can understand where this guy is coming from. I'm not a designer, but I occasionally design things (like invitations for birthday parties, father's day cards, maps for the weekly D&D game) and I've spent quite a bit of my free time reading up on typography and design.
When you have no knowledge of the art form these kinds of complaints are incomprehensible. Example: for the life of me I could not see the difference between Helvetica and Arial for a long time. After spending some time reading about type design I can spot the differences pretty easily, and Arial's use does seem to me kind of clunky and bad.
It's all about context. There isn't anything inherently wrong with most typefaces, but there are often issues with how they're employed. Arial is a bad substitute for Helvetica, and Helvetica is not a Magical Unicorn of Happiness that makes every design better.
Comic sans really isn't so terrible, if you use it for effective a comic book speech dialogue (though comic book text is all caps and usually handlettered/kerned). It has its place. Papyrus is another great example. It's an interesting "Epic/Ancient" font. It has usefulness, it's not ugly. But it becomes terrible when every other organic peanut-butter uses it in their packaging to show how earthy and authentic they are, or when an upscale housing community uses it on their signage to show how rustic and cool their tract houses are.
Overuse of any popular typeface (Helvetica, Papyrus, Gotham, Archer, Din, Trajan) smacks of laziness, and that tends to anger some designers who work hard to be different and and unique and make wonderful design.
It's like guys who ride custom made steel-framed wunderbikes complaining about all the posers riding carbon frames. They may have a valid point, but most of us don't really care.
You can let poor type design ruin your weekend, or you can move on. We already know it ruined Bruno's weekend, because he designed a typeface that nobody wants or needs.
Also, if you're really worried about Helvetica over-usage, just go here.
posted by jnrussell at 1:24 PM on July 7, 2010
But I can understand where this guy is coming from. I'm not a designer, but I occasionally design things (like invitations for birthday parties, father's day cards, maps for the weekly D&D game) and I've spent quite a bit of my free time reading up on typography and design.
When you have no knowledge of the art form these kinds of complaints are incomprehensible. Example: for the life of me I could not see the difference between Helvetica and Arial for a long time. After spending some time reading about type design I can spot the differences pretty easily, and Arial's use does seem to me kind of clunky and bad.
It's all about context. There isn't anything inherently wrong with most typefaces, but there are often issues with how they're employed. Arial is a bad substitute for Helvetica, and Helvetica is not a Magical Unicorn of Happiness that makes every design better.
Comic sans really isn't so terrible, if you use it for effective a comic book speech dialogue (though comic book text is all caps and usually handlettered/kerned). It has its place. Papyrus is another great example. It's an interesting "Epic/Ancient" font. It has usefulness, it's not ugly. But it becomes terrible when every other organic peanut-butter uses it in their packaging to show how earthy and authentic they are, or when an upscale housing community uses it on their signage to show how rustic and cool their tract houses are.
Overuse of any popular typeface (Helvetica, Papyrus, Gotham, Archer, Din, Trajan) smacks of laziness, and that tends to anger some designers who work hard to be different and and unique and make wonderful design.
It's like guys who ride custom made steel-framed wunderbikes complaining about all the posers riding carbon frames. They may have a valid point, but most of us don't really care.
You can let poor type design ruin your weekend, or you can move on. We already know it ruined Bruno's weekend, because he designed a typeface that nobody wants or needs.
Also, if you're really worried about Helvetica over-usage, just go here.
posted by jnrussell at 1:24 PM on July 7, 2010
> Then I come to England and there's all these designers using Helvetica! The Macintosh had just come out
> and Helvetica was on every single machine. Everyone was so fascinated with it … I never understood that.
it had the appeal of not being Not Being Arial. Sort of like the fatal attractiveness of folks who Aren't George Bush.
PS I use carolingian minuscule for everything. (and keep sheep for the parchment. I end up eating a lot of mutton.)
posted by jfuller at 1:26 PM on July 7, 2010 [1 favorite]
> and Helvetica was on every single machine. Everyone was so fascinated with it … I never understood that.
it had the appeal of not being Not Being Arial. Sort of like the fatal attractiveness of folks who Aren't George Bush.
PS I use carolingian minuscule for everything. (and keep sheep for the parchment. I end up eating a lot of mutton.)
posted by jfuller at 1:26 PM on July 7, 2010 [1 favorite]
I am always amazed by the amount of energy passion typographers fetishists put into their loathing of particular fonts craft.
Fixed that for you. Every type thread here turns into wank, and I never understand why since type design is basically architecture. It's something people put a lot of love and dedication into, and it is hard work, which is why certain families cost as much as they do.
When you deal with a certain set of typefaces on a daily basis, you end up noticing the little nuances about them. Things that don't look right or that are hard on the eyes. As trivial as it may seem, it does make a difference, especially for those of us who have to spend 8 hours a day looking at them.
So please have a little respect? It would be appreciated.
posted by june made him a gemini at 1:27 PM on July 7, 2010 [4 favorites]
Fixed that for you. Every type thread here turns into wank, and I never understand why since type design is basically architecture. It's something people put a lot of love and dedication into, and it is hard work, which is why certain families cost as much as they do.
When you deal with a certain set of typefaces on a daily basis, you end up noticing the little nuances about them. Things that don't look right or that are hard on the eyes. As trivial as it may seem, it does make a difference, especially for those of us who have to spend 8 hours a day looking at them.
So please have a little respect? It would be appreciated.
posted by june made him a gemini at 1:27 PM on July 7, 2010 [4 favorites]
I am always amazed by the amount of energy type fetishists put into their loathing of particular fonts. Like hipsters, they spend most of their time hating the most ubiquitous and popular (helvetica, comic sans, etc). Like hipsters, they have little to no effect on the rest of us. Like hipsters, although they can and do affect advertising and print media, their effects are largely inconsequential.
I am always amazed by the amount of energy ________ fetishists put into their loathing of __________. Like hipsters, they spend most of their time hating the most ubiquitous and popular (_________, _________, etc). Like hipsters, they have little to no effect on the rest of us. Like hipsters, although they can and do affect _______ and ________, their effects are largely inconsequential.
-or-
I am always amazed by the amount of energy type fetishists put into their loathing of particular fonts. Like _______, they spend most of their time hating the most ubiquitous and popular (helvetica, comic sans, etc). Like _______, they have little to no effect on the rest of us. Like __________, although they can and do affect advertising and print media, their effects are largely inconsequential
posted by jabberjaw at 1:37 PM on July 7, 2010 [1 favorite]
I am always amazed by the amount of energy ________ fetishists put into their loathing of __________. Like hipsters, they spend most of their time hating the most ubiquitous and popular (_________, _________, etc). Like hipsters, they have little to no effect on the rest of us. Like hipsters, although they can and do affect _______ and ________, their effects are largely inconsequential.
-or-
I am always amazed by the amount of energy type fetishists put into their loathing of particular fonts. Like _______, they spend most of their time hating the most ubiquitous and popular (helvetica, comic sans, etc). Like _______, they have little to no effect on the rest of us. Like __________, although they can and do affect advertising and print media, their effects are largely inconsequential
posted by jabberjaw at 1:37 PM on July 7, 2010 [1 favorite]
Man I wish my problems were as small as this guy's.
posted by dobie at 1:51 PM on July 7, 2010 [2 favorites]
posted by dobie at 1:51 PM on July 7, 2010 [2 favorites]
He's right about Univers over Helvetica. Always my choice.
posted by i_cola at 2:18 PM on July 7, 2010
posted by i_cola at 2:18 PM on July 7, 2010
"When people choose a typeface it’s not a rational decision, it’s completely emotional."
This is incorrect. As a technical communicator, I choose my fonts/typefaces based on readability, often backed by studies.
So nyah. =P
posted by Eideteker at 2:23 PM on July 7, 2010
This is incorrect. As a technical communicator, I choose my fonts/typefaces based on readability, often backed by studies.
So nyah. =P
posted by Eideteker at 2:23 PM on July 7, 2010
I wonder if you can get a tombstone in Helvetica.
posted by four panels at 2:28 PM on July 7, 2010
posted by four panels at 2:28 PM on July 7, 2010
coming from a typeface luddite: can somebody put HELVETICA and his type side-by-side? i can't see the difference.
also, am confused: isn't the article printed in Helvetica instead of his Aktiv?
posted by liza at 2:30 PM on July 7, 2010
also, am confused: isn't the article printed in Helvetica instead of his Aktiv?
posted by liza at 2:30 PM on July 7, 2010
One day I will write a word processor called Helvetica. Everything written in Helvetica will use Comic Sans. Everything except the word Helvetica; it will be in Arial.
posted by blue_beetle at 2:37 PM on July 7, 2010 [7 favorites]
posted by blue_beetle at 2:37 PM on July 7, 2010 [7 favorites]
Methinks thou doth protest too much, et cetera et cetera
Also, grar, it's 'The lady doth protest too much, methinks,' not the other way around, and it's way more dry and awesome, and also 'protest' means 'vow' rather than 'objects.'
posted by shakespeherian at 2:40 PM on July 7, 2010 [1 favorite]
Also, grar, it's 'The lady doth protest too much, methinks,' not the other way around, and it's way more dry and awesome, and also 'protest' means 'vow' rather than 'objects.'
posted by shakespeherian at 2:40 PM on July 7, 2010 [1 favorite]
I used to be very type-involved and in the early days of digital type I had a hate on for Helvetica. I wondered what the world would be like if you dropped a bomb that made all Helvetica disappear. I could argue at length about why Univers was so much better.
But after the horrible days of early web type — times which rammed into my head that how one arranges and spaces letters and what they say is tenfold more important than the letterforms themselves — the kids found their way to some acceptable online typography with Helvetica, I mellowed and I stopped being a hater.
Declaring war on Helvetica with a font that to laypeople looks identical (sure, it looks more like Univers if you look closely) is a marketing stance that requires the audience to accept there is truth to an extreme world view (that Helvetica is a problem that must be solved) on par with Prince declaring the internet over.
posted by KS at 2:40 PM on July 7, 2010
But after the horrible days of early web type — times which rammed into my head that how one arranges and spaces letters and what they say is tenfold more important than the letterforms themselves — the kids found their way to some acceptable online typography with Helvetica, I mellowed and I stopped being a hater.
Declaring war on Helvetica with a font that to laypeople looks identical (sure, it looks more like Univers if you look closely) is a marketing stance that requires the audience to accept there is truth to an extreme world view (that Helvetica is a problem that must be solved) on par with Prince declaring the internet over.
posted by KS at 2:40 PM on July 7, 2010
URW Gothic L Book is what I use system-wide, and I haven't looked back.
Like hipsters, they spend most of their time hating the most ubiquitous and popular (helvetica, comic sans, etc). Like hipsters, they have little to no effect on the rest of us.
Except for inducing rage, scorn and ridicule on an almost daily basis, apparently.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 2:51 PM on July 7, 2010
Like hipsters, they spend most of their time hating the most ubiquitous and popular (helvetica, comic sans, etc). Like hipsters, they have little to no effect on the rest of us.
Except for inducing rage, scorn and ridicule on an almost daily basis, apparently.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 2:51 PM on July 7, 2010
liza: “also, am confused: isn't the article printed in Helvetica instead of his Aktiv?”
Well, to be fair, it'd be really, really tough to print the article in his font and have it be reasonably viewable (i.e. actual page text, not a rasterized image, and not slow-loading as all hell) considering that nobody will have his font installed on their computer. However, you are correct; the article is most definitely set in Helvetica. Of course, unless you're an Apple user or some kind of hipster who's actually paid for Helvetica and/or otherwise acquired it, you won't see it in that font. I see that page in Arial, since that's the first font listed that I have on my computer. I suspect the vast majority of Windows users will see this page in Arial.
posted by koeselitz at 2:56 PM on July 7, 2010
Well, to be fair, it'd be really, really tough to print the article in his font and have it be reasonably viewable (i.e. actual page text, not a rasterized image, and not slow-loading as all hell) considering that nobody will have his font installed on their computer. However, you are correct; the article is most definitely set in Helvetica. Of course, unless you're an Apple user or some kind of hipster who's actually paid for Helvetica and/or otherwise acquired it, you won't see it in that font. I see that page in Arial, since that's the first font listed that I have on my computer. I suspect the vast majority of Windows users will see this page in Arial.
posted by koeselitz at 2:56 PM on July 7, 2010
IAmBroom: “I am always amazed by the amount of energy type fetishists put into their loathing of particular fonts. Like hipsters, they spend most of their time hating the most ubiquitous and popular (helvetica, comic sans, etc)... ”
Huh? How in the world is Helvetica popular? I know that font people always go on about how awesome it is, and I see it in fancy logos all the time, but other than that I never see it anywhere. Moreover, as I mentioned in my comment above, I don't know anyone who actually has Helvetica installed on their computer at all (aside from the Mac users who have it by default) so it's not exactly a big font on the internet. I actually think Helvetica is the hipster of fonts, since it's used by a tiny group of people who insist on how important it is even though most of us will never want to spend a hundred bucks just to use a goddamned font.
posted by koeselitz at 2:59 PM on July 7, 2010
Huh? How in the world is Helvetica popular? I know that font people always go on about how awesome it is, and I see it in fancy logos all the time, but other than that I never see it anywhere. Moreover, as I mentioned in my comment above, I don't know anyone who actually has Helvetica installed on their computer at all (aside from the Mac users who have it by default) so it's not exactly a big font on the internet. I actually think Helvetica is the hipster of fonts, since it's used by a tiny group of people who insist on how important it is even though most of us will never want to spend a hundred bucks just to use a goddamned font.
posted by koeselitz at 2:59 PM on July 7, 2010
Univers is very nice, isn't it.
I have been using DejaVu Sans. Trebuchet MS is nice, despite the fact that it is the spawn of Corporation-Who-Shall-Not-Be-Named...
posted by Xoebe at 3:12 PM on July 7, 2010
I have been using DejaVu Sans. Trebuchet MS is nice, despite the fact that it is the spawn of Corporation-Who-Shall-Not-Be-Named...
posted by Xoebe at 3:12 PM on July 7, 2010
I JUST PRINT EVERYTHING IN COPPERPLATE BOLD FOR THAT EXPLORE MY DUNGEON LOOK
posted by klangklangston at 3:34 PM on July 7, 2010 [4 favorites]
posted by klangklangston at 3:34 PM on July 7, 2010 [4 favorites]
And I remember at the old bad magazine having set something a couple times for a special—one of the very few I worked on—and the weaselly dick of the boss kept just saying that he didn't like the font and wanted something edgier and I didn't even really know what the fuck I was doing and just wanted to be done with this bullshit that was sprung on me last minute and was like, Fuck it, I'm doing WingDings motherfucker, and then all of the sudden, he was fine with, like, Stagecoach or some shit.
posted by klangklangston at 3:36 PM on July 7, 2010 [3 favorites]
posted by klangklangston at 3:36 PM on July 7, 2010 [3 favorites]
Oh my god IAmBroom. What if type fetishists ARE hipsters?!?!?!
Man, nurses are always talking about hygiene and getting people to wash their hands, what nerds. Or how about those programers talking about how buggy the new release of such and such is? LAME! One writer I knew once commented about an incorrect apostrophe, can you believe it? Who has the time to care about that?
I love nerds— people who have an expansive depth of knowledge of their areas of expertise— and want to work to better the world, no matter how inconsequential it is to a non-initiate.
posted by fontophilic at 3:49 PM on July 7, 2010
Man, nurses are always talking about hygiene and getting people to wash their hands, what nerds. Or how about those programers talking about how buggy the new release of such and such is? LAME! One writer I knew once commented about an incorrect apostrophe, can you believe it? Who has the time to care about that?
I love nerds— people who have an expansive depth of knowledge of their areas of expertise— and want to work to better the world, no matter how inconsequential it is to a non-initiate.
posted by fontophilic at 3:49 PM on July 7, 2010
I used to work for a company that was owned by and sort of incorporated into a Danish firm. The Danes, or so we called them, had a brand identity that was built around Univers. They were insistent that all technical communications be done in Univers, but they didn't want to pay up for all of us in the US office to have Univers on our computers. A lot of our paperwork went out in Arial or Helvetica.
Without declaring the nerdery of type and font folks in their craft to be excessive, the interview reminds me of all the discussions about Univers and Helvetica that went around the office. It's not so much the type nerdery as the difference between what type nerds (reasonably or not) care about and the conditions most of us operate under in daily office life.
posted by immlass at 3:54 PM on July 7, 2010 [1 favorite]
Without declaring the nerdery of type and font folks in their craft to be excessive, the interview reminds me of all the discussions about Univers and Helvetica that went around the office. It's not so much the type nerdery as the difference between what type nerds (reasonably or not) care about and the conditions most of us operate under in daily office life.
posted by immlass at 3:54 PM on July 7, 2010 [1 favorite]
Ugh, I hate that stupid, stupid documentary.
The best part of that movie was watching Erik Spiekermann rant about how bad Helvetica is. The documentarians tried really hard to make him look like a cranky old German, but to me he came off sounding more thoughtful and concerned about the craft of visual design than some of his other compatriots. Don't get me started on Vignelli.
posted by jnrussell at 4:18 PM on July 7, 2010
The best part of that movie was watching Erik Spiekermann rant about how bad Helvetica is. The documentarians tried really hard to make him look like a cranky old German, but to me he came off sounding more thoughtful and concerned about the craft of visual design than some of his other compatriots. Don't get me started on Vignelli.
posted by jnrussell at 4:18 PM on July 7, 2010
You know what I wish? I wish i had so few problems, real and/or imaginary, that this question could inspire anything more than a marginal "meh" from me... I read the link. I've seen the doc. I have Univers and Helvetica installed on my machine, and I know when to use them. And I STILL don't care.
posted by OneMonkeysUncle at 5:06 PM on July 7, 2010
posted by OneMonkeysUncle at 5:06 PM on July 7, 2010
I can't really get very worked up about his criticisms of Helvetica, but I will say that I do like the slightly chunkier look of his typeface. Will anyone else notice? Probably very few.
posted by chrominance at 5:19 PM on July 7, 2010
posted by chrominance at 5:19 PM on July 7, 2010
I've been using fonts from the HP Lovecraft Historical Society for my screen fonts, at least on my Windows install. Makes the whole experience much more eldritch (though not rugose) which has been lacking at least since Vista
As for Helvetica, this is the most important video I've seen about it
posted by jtron at 5:23 PM on July 7, 2010 [7 favorites]
As for Helvetica, this is the most important video I've seen about it
posted by jtron at 5:23 PM on July 7, 2010 [7 favorites]
Y'all can hate on Comic Sans MS all you want. There's not another handwriting-ish font I've ever seen that scales to small type sizes.
Try it.
posted by effugas at 5:57 PM on July 7, 2010
Try it.
posted by effugas at 5:57 PM on July 7, 2010
Having just watched Helvietica, my main impression is "Things white people care about." Not so different here.
posted by NortonDC at 6:05 PM on July 7, 2010
posted by NortonDC at 6:05 PM on July 7, 2010
PB: When this is out can you let Helvetica go? Have you exorcised the demon?
BM: Yes, it’s catharsis. It’s done now.
When I saw that pull-quote I thought "catharsis" was the name of the font. Pity. It'd be a heck of a good name.
posted by Songdog at 6:29 PM on July 7, 2010
Despite being a fan of HP Lovecraft and prop-fonts, I can't believe I've never run across that page, jtron. You've experienced one more man crush, man.
posted by porpoise at 7:47 PM on July 7, 2010
posted by porpoise at 7:47 PM on July 7, 2010
I'm too lazy to click. Did he just put umlauts on everything?
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 8:46 PM on July 7, 2010
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 8:46 PM on July 7, 2010
Huh? How in the world is Helvetica popular? I know that font people always go on about how awesome it is, and I see it in fancy logos all the time, but other than that I never see it anywhere.
It's all over the damn place. It's, seriously, you cannot walk down the street without seeing it I don't think if there's signage to be seen. It's in print and it's on signs. It may not be on webpages so much (esp. if you're not on a mac, yes), but type gets used in lots of places that aren't the internet and Helvetica is one of the fonts that gets used a lot.
Personally, I like it in a lot of cases but think it gets used far too much in shitty signage—but shitty signage is generally shitty in a way that transcends choice of face, so that's neither here nor there really. But I'm not a typographer or a designer, so I've never had much reason to develop very strong opinions about this stuff.
I like Maag's variation, too. The change in the lower case a jumped out at me in an "ooh, yeah, that's...that's a good point" sort of way.
posted by cortex at 9:09 PM on July 7, 2010
It's all over the damn place. It's, seriously, you cannot walk down the street without seeing it I don't think if there's signage to be seen. It's in print and it's on signs. It may not be on webpages so much (esp. if you're not on a mac, yes), but type gets used in lots of places that aren't the internet and Helvetica is one of the fonts that gets used a lot.
Personally, I like it in a lot of cases but think it gets used far too much in shitty signage—but shitty signage is generally shitty in a way that transcends choice of face, so that's neither here nor there really. But I'm not a typographer or a designer, so I've never had much reason to develop very strong opinions about this stuff.
I like Maag's variation, too. The change in the lower case a jumped out at me in an "ooh, yeah, that's...that's a good point" sort of way.
posted by cortex at 9:09 PM on July 7, 2010
cortex: “It's all over the damn place. It's, seriously, you cannot walk down the street without seeing it I don't think if there's signage to be seen. It's in print and it's on signs. It may not be on webpages so much (esp. if you're not on a mac, yes), but type gets used in lots of places that aren't the internet and Helvetica is one of the fonts that gets used a lot.”
Wait - there are places that aren't on the web?
Heh. Seriously, though, I think you're right. The trouble is that I kind of live in a strip-mall wasteland, so I don't even see signage much these days. But when I do, Helvetica is ubiquitous. I did speak to soon earlier.
posted by koeselitz at 9:13 PM on July 7, 2010
Wait - there are places that aren't on the web?
Heh. Seriously, though, I think you're right. The trouble is that I kind of live in a strip-mall wasteland, so I don't even see signage much these days. But when I do, Helvetica is ubiquitous. I did speak to soon earlier.
posted by koeselitz at 9:13 PM on July 7, 2010
Helvetica is such a boring font. It may be aesthetically pleasing, but its overuse prevents me from holding very high esteem for it (or at least the people who always choose to use it).
posted by GlassHeart at 3:41 AM on July 8, 2010
posted by GlassHeart at 3:41 AM on July 8, 2010
Required reading for anyone who has more than a passing interest in typography . . .
posted by exlotuseater at 6:07 AM on July 8, 2010
posted by exlotuseater at 6:07 AM on July 8, 2010
jtron, those are terrific fonts, thanks. I do a little design work for my wife's business and I'm always looking for ways to bring a '20s sensibility into the work.
posted by Mister_A at 8:21 AM on July 8, 2010
posted by Mister_A at 8:21 AM on July 8, 2010
In other typeface news, Ubuntu commissioned a new typeface slated to be the default in October's release. I'm not wild about it.
posted by Zed at 9:07 AM on July 8, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by Zed at 9:07 AM on July 8, 2010 [1 favorite]
I saw the documentary. I see Helvetica everywhere. I can totally understand being annoyed with it being so overused.
But if you really and truly cared so much, you would release your fancy new "Helvetica killer" typeface in a manner that would encourage lots and lots of people to use it. Such as releasing the entire Aktiv Grotesk Font Family for free. Releasing it for $45 per weight is NOT the way to get the maximum amount of people to use it. Therefore, I call marketing stunt.
posted by gemmy at 1:10 PM on July 8, 2010 [1 favorite]
But if you really and truly cared so much, you would release your fancy new "Helvetica killer" typeface in a manner that would encourage lots and lots of people to use it. Such as releasing the entire Aktiv Grotesk Font Family for free. Releasing it for $45 per weight is NOT the way to get the maximum amount of people to use it. Therefore, I call marketing stunt.
posted by gemmy at 1:10 PM on July 8, 2010 [1 favorite]
The best part of the Doc was then Spiekermann drew the parallel between Helvetica and McDonalds. When I look through this thread I see all the range of opinions that people have about McDonalds, too.
Some people love McDonalds and eat it almost exclusively, some people hate McDonalds but love Burger King, some people are over it and don't give a shit, but we all know there's a lot of McDonalds' in the world.
All of these opinions are present in this thread.
posted by tuck_nroll at 5:27 PM on July 8, 2010
Some people love McDonalds and eat it almost exclusively, some people hate McDonalds but love Burger King, some people are over it and don't give a shit, but we all know there's a lot of McDonalds' in the world.
All of these opinions are present in this thread.
posted by tuck_nroll at 5:27 PM on July 8, 2010
Echo Target, the literature is replete with analyses of the design deficiencies of Helvetica, rooted mostly in the grotesk tradition that Helvetica ignores in large measure. If I recall correctly, Christian Schwartz’s Bau is an attempt to produce an aboriginal grotesk with contemporary type technology.
As an example of Helvetica criticism from another angle, Martin Majoor has argued that Helvetica is really Walbaum Sansserif and could be redesigned accordingly. His drawings are consistent with many of the original grotesks.
And as ever when we discuss typography here, ignoramuses stand up for Courier, Arial, and – eventually, à la Godwin – dumb quotes.
posted by joeclark at 9:00 AM on July 9, 2010
As an example of Helvetica criticism from another angle, Martin Majoor has argued that Helvetica is really Walbaum Sansserif and could be redesigned accordingly. His drawings are consistent with many of the original grotesks.
And as ever when we discuss typography here, ignoramuses stand up for Courier, Arial, and – eventually, à la Godwin – dumb quotes.
posted by joeclark at 9:00 AM on July 9, 2010
Gemmy, type designers have an absolute right to charge for their work. If you think $45 a weight is a lot, you must be new here.
posted by joeclark at 9:47 AM on July 9, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by joeclark at 9:47 AM on July 9, 2010 [1 favorite]
gemmy didn't say type designers don't have a right to charge for their work, just that distributing this at a fee is a big roadblock to any notional campaign to overtake Helvetica.
Which is true, though I think the argument that it's a marketing stunt in any case is on point since it's pretty damned unlikely that it'd be able to overtake Helvetica if it were free, either. It's a nice piece of work but barring it getting the explicit favor of and buy-in by some hugely influential distributional force in the type world, that's all it is. You might as well try to record an album as a "Beatles Killer". It may be a very nice album, but there are a lot of very nice albums out there and the Beatles are still the Beatles.
posted by cortex at 9:58 AM on July 9, 2010
Which is true, though I think the argument that it's a marketing stunt in any case is on point since it's pretty damned unlikely that it'd be able to overtake Helvetica if it were free, either. It's a nice piece of work but barring it getting the explicit favor of and buy-in by some hugely influential distributional force in the type world, that's all it is. You might as well try to record an album as a "Beatles Killer". It may be a very nice album, but there are a lot of very nice albums out there and the Beatles are still the Beatles.
posted by cortex at 9:58 AM on July 9, 2010
Helvetica is a pretty useful font for the web; this new one seems more designed for print? I usually stick with Arial.
posted by wei2k at 12:10 PM on July 9, 2010
posted by wei2k at 12:10 PM on July 9, 2010
joeclark, you misunderstood. Of course type designers should charge for their work, and $45 is relatively cheap in my experience.
But I meant it exactly like cortex explained it. He just made my point better than I did.
posted by gemmy at 4:58 PM on July 9, 2010
But I meant it exactly like cortex explained it. He just made my point better than I did.
posted by gemmy at 4:58 PM on July 9, 2010
the literature is replete with analyses of the design deficiencies of Helvetica
Audiophiles talk a lot but it doesn't make it science.
If there aren't psychophysical metrics, it's just tastesnarking.
posted by effugas at 7:03 PM on July 10, 2010
Audiophiles talk a lot but it doesn't make it science.
If there aren't psychophysical metrics, it's just tastesnarking.
posted by effugas at 7:03 PM on July 10, 2010
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posted by Threeway Handshake at 10:57 AM on July 7, 2010 [3 favorites]