What always strikes me odd about these pseudo-analytical pop-music dissections is how they assume that the performers have 100% agency in their image, videos, etc., as if they just woke up and decided to put on that wardrobe and dance like this and stare into the camera in that way, and there were no multi-million dollar corporation's hired image consultants, directors, wardrobe consultants, etc., orchestrating everything we ever see, read or hear about said celebrities. I understand the writers are paid to pretend it's spontaneous, but it still feels oddly naive.
posted by signal at 1:37 PM on October 25, 2014 [20 favorites]

sure - there's a huge machine, but it's maybe a bit problematic that it only seems to come up when the star is a woman.
posted by nadawi at 1:39 PM on October 25, 2014 [58 favorites]

also, just because i think it should be included in every nicki post ever, nicki minaj talks about being bossed up.
posted by nadawi at 1:41 PM on October 25, 2014 [28 favorites]

I don't understand this piece at all. Is there real public beef between Nicki Minaj and Jennifer Lopez (maybe related to J-Lo and Iggy Azalea's collaboration), or is this writer just trying to make that happen? Is the takeaway that Minaj is calculating and thoughtful in her explorations of gender, or that it's all just marketing that happens to be easy to project upon?

I'm so confused. One thing I am decidedly not confused about, however, is that Anaconda is a very not good song.

On preview: nadawi, doesn't that same stuff come up with male rappers also? It might just be the circles I'm in and the media I read, but it definitely seems to; Rick Ross being a well-marketed CO, Kanye being a contrived faux genius, the backlash against the 'shiny suit' era of Bad Boy, etc. I don't doubt that there are HUGE and problematic dynamics dictating when and how those things are brought up, but I'm not sure the deciding factor here is gender.
posted by still bill at 1:44 PM on October 25, 2014 [2 favorites]

I understand what you're getting at, Signal, but I've been in meetings with actors and musicians and a very large percentage of them have very precise ideas about what they're going to do and why they want to do it. For the most part, they do have agency. I've never worked with Nicki, but from everything I've heard, she is most certainly in control and this article gets at that.

I didn't read the J Lo stuff as beef, but rather the writer contextualizing Nicki.
posted by incessant at 1:49 PM on October 25, 2014 [7 favorites]

anaconda is a fun and subversive song and video. i was listening to it earlier today, actually. and i think the way authenticity is talked about is variable depending on gender. women are often discussed like they're just the pretty glittery thing that all the men put together to sell sex to the masses. men are more often given autonomy of their own stories even if part of their story is people doubting their authenticity.
posted by nadawi at 1:51 PM on October 25, 2014 [17 favorites]

That's definitely true, nadawi. In some of the examples I cited more than others: definitely the case with Kanye and Bad Boy, maybe less so with Rick Ross.

I have a really hard time reading anything about Nicki Minaj as subversive, though. I can't see or hear her as anything other than more of the same, but that's likely just as due to my own taste as any other major factors.
posted by still bill at 1:58 PM on October 25, 2014 [1 favorite]

On the one hand, Anaconda is not a great song. On the other hand, it was recently featured at a pep rally at the high school where my girlfriend teaches, and the thought of school administrators obliviously nodding along while the cheer squad performs a routine to a song about analingus and cocaine makes me just about as happy as anything has ever made me in my life.
posted by Parasite Unseen at 2:05 PM on October 25, 2014 [40 favorites]

Unseen but not forgotten. There's a Bob's Burgers reference in there somewhere, but it might be just the cheer-leading association. Which is now tainted.
posted by sneebler at 2:12 PM on October 25, 2014

Don't know how true it is, but Nicki Minaj certainly does not present herself as someone who allows others to make decisions about her image.
posted by WidgetAlley at 2:13 PM on October 25, 2014 [13 favorites]

nicki's persona is present in her mixtapes well before she was signed or famous, and it's way too smart to be manufactured by 'image consultants'
posted by p3on at 2:28 PM on October 25, 2014 [13 favorites]

I don't understand this piece at all. Is there real public beef between Nicki Minaj and Jennifer Lopez (maybe related to J-Lo and Iggy Azalea's collaboration), or is this writer just trying to make that happen?

I read it as typical misogynistic bullshit about how every goddamn action a woman takes is some sort of beauty competition with another women, because why the fuck else would we do anything?

This article reminded me of the passive-aggressive piece of crap by the Star-Ledger reporter who couldn't get Mila Kunis to say anything interesting on her press junket or Anthony Lane's verbal frottage of Scarlett Johansson. Three interviews where the authors complains about how they can't get the depth they want out of this starlet. First of all, it's not about you. Second, if you want depth, get off the entertainment beat and go to the Middle East or Detroit or something. I'm sorry your subjects lack the requisite complexity that you obviously feel you're entitled to, but these women are professionals promoting their work who don't owe you shit, and if you can't discuss that work without interjecting yourself and your precious feelings into it, maybe you picked the wrong damn job.
posted by bibliowench at 2:34 PM on October 25, 2014 [16 favorites]

Nicki Minaj is the most badass musician we've had since Joan Jett basically.
posted by 256 at 2:49 PM on October 25, 2014 [11 favorites]

To be perfectly fair, I'm pretty sure that Kanye crafted his own persona.

That's not a compliment.
posted by schmod at 2:53 PM on October 25, 2014 [3 favorites]

What always strikes me odd about these pseudo-analytical pop-music dissections is how they assume that the performers have 100% agency in their image, videos, etc., as if they just woke up and decided to put on that wardrobe and dance like this and stare into the camera in that way, and there were no multi-million dollar corporation's hired image consultants, directors, wardrobe consultants, etc., orchestrating everything we ever see, read or hear about said celebrities.

Sorry, but this is just wrong, especially for someone of Nicki's caliber (e.g., a proven superstar whose style, artistry, and point of view are essential to her appeal). My work involves one of the biggest female pop stars on the planet and her label is ALL about satisfying her artistic whims-- oh, she wants this insanely overpriced stylist? She wants this person to design a font to use on her website? She wants us to move heaven and earth so she can work with X? The answer is always yes. She might have a stylist, a choreographer, and a director, but those people answer to her, not the label.

Sure, absolutely, labels/managers can be very controlling of certain artists, particularly young/new artists who don't already have an established image or haven't had enough success. But that doesn't apply at all to someone on the level of Nicki, Gaga, Katy, Rihanna, Beyonce, etc.
posted by acidic at 3:01 PM on October 25, 2014 [25 favorites]

I can take or leave Anaconda as a song, but the video - especially the bit with Drake and the chair - may be the best pop video I've seen in a long time.
posted by Itaxpica at 3:40 PM on October 25, 2014 [6 favorites]

My read of the Anaconda video (barring the Drake part) is that it feels like a longform ad for so many products I can't figure out what it's telling me to buy. Not that that's different from a lot of contemporary music videos, but it's really heavy-handed in Anaconda.
posted by still bill at 4:12 PM on October 25, 2014

Minaj is a fair to good pop star. She has been tremendously successful by lifting her stylings from elsewhere, from her Barbie aesthetic to her Slick Rick vocals. Anaconda is simply a paean to dick, nothing more.
posted by P.o.B. at 4:31 PM on October 25, 2014

also, just because i think it should be included in every nicki post ever, nicki minaj talks about being bossed up.

God I love Nicki Minaj so much I could hug her a billion times.
posted by winna at 4:44 PM on October 25, 2014 [1 favorite]

Anaconda is simply a paean to dick, nothing more.

Is it? Let's look carefully at the song's lyrical subtleties:

Oh my gosh, look at her butt
Oh my gosh, look at her butt
Oh my gosh, look at her butt
Look at her butt (look at her butt)

Yeah, he love this fat ass
Yeah! This one is for my bitches with a fat ass in the fucking club
I said, "Where my fat ass big bitches in the club?"
Fuck those skinny bitches,
Fuck those skinny bitches in the club
I wanna see all the big fat ass bitches in the motherfucking club, fuck you if you skinny bitches. What? Yeah!

Yeah. I got a big fat ass. Come on!

I can only assume the song is a paean to Nicki Minaj's forehead, which she headbutts people with. Onlookers are amazed at her violent confrontations in the club and, not knowing how to react to her butting, exclaim, "Oh my gosh, look at her butt!"
posted by knuckle tattoos at 4:54 PM on October 25, 2014 [9 favorites]

The title is kind of a giveaway.
posted by P.o.B. at 4:56 PM on October 25, 2014 [1 favorite]

PS it's about butts.
posted by knuckle tattoos at 4:57 PM on October 25, 2014 [5 favorites]

> they assume that the performers have 100% agency in their image, videos, etc., as if they just woke up and decided to put on that wardrobe and dance like this and stare into the camera in that way

Related: One of the many, many enjoyable things about Dinner for Five is hearing actors talk about their choices and their inputs into the films the work on. For instance, did you know that Daryl Hannah's look as Pris in Blade Runner, her acrobatics etc. were all her idea, and that Ridley Scott just took them onboard?

Also, Nicky Minaj is as much of an author (or of a puppet) of her own professional image as Lady Gaga: Discuss.
posted by kandinski at 5:07 PM on October 25, 2014 [1 favorite]

She was fired from a waitressing job at a Red Lobster after she followed a couple who had taken her pen into the parking lot and then flipped them the bird. I asked her if it was a special pen. "No," she said. "It was the principle."

Ha!

Right before I left her the previous night, Nicki had stopped me, and maybe because she felt bad for me and maybe because she, too, is generous, she had given me two things—a ticket to this show and this tiny morsel:

"I'm chopping up the banana. Did you realize that?"

What? What banana?

In the "Anaconda" video, she says. "At first I'm being sexual with the banana, and then it's like, 'Ha-ha, no.' " I ask if she's referring to how the Drake scene immediately follows the kitchen scene. "Yeah, that was important for us to show in the kitchen scene, because it's always about the female taking back the power, and if you want to be flirty and funny that's fine, but always keeping the power and the control in everything."

I love also that she first in the interview denied that there was any subtext in the video and then casually later comes back and says 'guess what? Subtext!'
posted by winna at 5:12 PM on October 25, 2014 [3 favorites]

I've always appreciated Nicki Minaj for giving us such a stark example of how a woman owning her sexuality is still a threatening thing to many people.

There were many, many, deeply concerned articles about Minaj and how her butt on the cover of her album was bad, or harmful to her, or harmful to women, or in some way just plain not right. And this is fascinating, because there is no shortage of nearly nude women pushing their asses at the camera in album art. It's a staple of rap of course, but it pops up in other genres as well, and as a general rule no one seems to get in an uproar about it. There may be the occasional complaint that such album covers are tasteless, but there's nothing even remotely resembling the explosion of articles bemoaning the impending doom of civilization as signaled by a woman of color's ass that followed Anaconda's cover art.

And the reason for this seems perfectly obvious to me, and anyone else who has studied feminism. Nicki Minaj is out of control. By which I mean, she's out of the control of some man.

The wealth of album art featuring nearly nude women presenting their butts and clothed vulvae to the camera that didn't get any special comment differed from the cover of Anaconda in that the women on those album covers were there for the benefit of a man. Their sexuality is the (temporary) property of a man, they are hired actors there to bolster his virile image, their only benefit is a small paycheck. They are, and their sexuality is, under (male) control.

From a conservative standpoint the worst that can be said of male musicians hiring models to show their butts on album covers is that it's in poor taste, and this is said from time to time, but it's all quite perfunctory because a man using the sexuality of a woman to their benefit is nothing that threatens patriarchy.

But Minaj is using her sexuality to her own benefit. There's no man in control, and therefore she's out of control. Unlike the women on, say, the cover of 2 Live Crew's Nasty album, she is the artist, her appeal isn't just her butt, and she's using her own butt to promote her work, to provoke, to do whatever she wants. And that is a threat. Not a huge threat, patriarchy will hardly fall because of Anaconda, but it does chip away a bit at the base of the system and therefore Minaj's ass on the Anaconda gets deeply concerned press writing articles that are deeply concerned about her wellbeing, her stability, her sexual past, her image, etc. Things that this same deeply concerned press doesn't care about at all when it is a man hiring women to pose in a similar way.
posted by sotonohito at 5:28 PM on October 25, 2014 [45 favorites]

Minaj is a fair to good pop star. She has been tremendously successful by lifting her stylings from elsewhere, from her Barbie aesthetic to her Slick Rick vocals. Anaconda is simply a paean to dick, nothing more.

I love when somebody is so wrong and yet so sure of themselves. I presume it is the same principle that caused Strunk and White to encourage people, if they did not know the pronunciation of a word, to say it loudly.
posted by maxsparber at 6:01 PM on October 25, 2014 [25 favorites]

I liked her in the Lonely Island video, but I am guessing that one counts for the patriarchy.
posted by michaelh at 6:21 PM on October 25, 2014

I kind of like how she reacted in the article. I wrote out this 500 word response, but I think it boils down to the control she has in getting attention, and then holding it as you are unsure what box to put her in, or what her aims are.
posted by cashman at 6:33 PM on October 25, 2014 [1 favorite]

For me the question is does Minaj's image empower my daughter or disempower her? I think not. I admit I could be mistaken, but my gut reaction is that no it does not. Objectification whatever the form only serves the patriarchy in my opinion. Again, I could be wrong.
posted by AElfwine Evenstar at 6:35 PM on October 25, 2014 [1 favorite]

It seems like some people here are not really contextualizing that Minaj song or video?

I mean, ha ha these lyrics seem insipid! strikes me as poor when you consider the actual message:

Yeah, he love this fat ass
Yeah! This one is for my bitches with a fat ass in the fucking club
I said, "Where my fat ass big bitches in the club?"
Fuck those skinny bitches,
Fuck those skinny bitches in the club
I wanna see all the big fat ass bitches in the motherfucking club, fuck you if you skinny bitches. What? Yeah!

Consider that next to the typical bombardment re: the ideal (white) body image.

Then you have the actual imagery in the video: not a single man in sight, until she

is twerking and crawling across the floor to poor, hapless Drake [one of the biggest acts in r&b/hip-hop], sitting in a puddle of his own anticipatory blue balls. She slaps him before he can touch her

It's littered with (big assed) female black bodies in control of their sexuality. I'm not really au courant with mainstream pop culture, but, you know, I don't see that every day.
posted by pmv at 7:22 PM on October 25, 2014 [6 favorites]

You haven't seen one Lil' Kim video in the past twenty years?
posted by P.o.B. at 7:30 PM on October 25, 2014 [1 favorite]

But Minaj is using her sexuality to her own benefit. There's no man in control, and therefore she's out of control.

It's worth noting that Drake is literally the only man in the entire video for Anaconda, and in that scene she's so in command on so many levels that it practically screams it.
posted by Itaxpica at 7:35 PM on October 25, 2014 [2 favorites]

i don't know why every image of a woman has to fit into the rubric of if someone's daughter is being inspired by it - but if that is your benchmark for all feminism or women centered enterprises, you might consider that nicki is actually great for this. she has probably one of the most consistent messages that looks and cleverness will only get you so far and that you have to go to school and have a plan and be in control of your shit and don't let a man make those choices for you and don't think it's all just going to work out. she often promotes the message that if you work hard, if you're dedicated, if you strive for the best you that you can be, you will find success. she also, in my mind, is pretty much straight up revolutionary wrt black women owning their sexuality explicitly on their terms. she also is always very sweet towards her younger fans and works to cater her image depending on which audience a song or a performance is for.

your daughters could find a lot of different things about her to be empowering.
posted by nadawi at 8:02 PM on October 25, 2014 [27 favorites]

your daughters could find a lot of different things about her to be empowering.

I'm trying to see how my daughters's mind could be empowered by Minaj's art and I am failing to see how. Again, I admit I could be flailing here, but I am struggling to see how my daughter's identity as a woman is empowered by embodying patriarchal tropes.
posted by AElfwine Evenstar at 8:16 PM on October 25, 2014

I admit that maybe the simple fact that I am approaching this as a father my be crippling my ability to look at this objectively.
posted by AElfwine Evenstar at 8:20 PM on October 25, 2014

In other words, maybe it is me embodying the patriarchy, by default, that is preventing me from seeing any inherent value.
posted by AElfwine Evenstar at 8:22 PM on October 25, 2014 [4 favorites]

In the few interview I've read/watched with her, I love that she is up front about how she will handle her shit even if that means some people will call her a bitch. And that she points out the still persistent double standard.

She didn't pull that booty shot for Anaconda out of thin air. So when people lost their shit about it and she was all, what that style of cover is entirely common, she was making a sharp point.
posted by mandymanwasregistered at 8:50 PM on October 25, 2014 [1 favorite]

I have a daughter and I wish I could favorite nadawi's last comment ten times harder.

She loves Anaconda (radio edit) and it led her to a parody video about the biology of actual anacondas that she's watched about a dozen times today, so, yay Nicki.
posted by prize bull octorok at 8:51 PM on October 25, 2014 [2 favorites]

There has to be a better way of educating our children than pop stars reproducing patriarchal tropes which objectify their bodies is all I'm trying to say.
posted by AElfwine Evenstar at 9:48 PM on October 25, 2014

AElfwine, I don't think there's necessarily any contradiction in something being empowering for Minaj as an individual adult and that same that not being particularly appropriate for a young person or for any other person to emulate. I mean, I have a feeling, maybe, that you wouldn't want your young son watching that video either. Minaj also uses a great deal of profane language, which despite being oppositional to the archetypical patriarchal assignment for attractive women, is also something you'd probably not want your daughter or son to mimic. Well maybe. I don't think you have to second-guess yourself.

Even so, regarding the larger issue, just as not every instance of a woman cooking and doing the laundry can be said to support the patriarchy, it's maybe debatable as to whether her performance can be reduced to a mere reproduction of patriarchal tropes in the first place.
posted by xigxag at 9:56 PM on October 25, 2014 [1 favorite]

I mean, I have a feeling, maybe, that you wouldn't want your young son watching that video either.

Most certainly not. Unless of course, I wanted my young son to objectify women. I'm having a hard time imagining how that would happen, or more specifically not happen pertaining to the quite clear objectification inherent in the whole exercise; well meaning foul-mouthed educational video to the contrary. I have a hard time swallowing the proposition that to empower my daughter I have to expose her to the very same patriarchal tropes which function to dis-empower her in every way possible insofar as they teach her to value her body/appearance over her mind.
posted by AElfwine Evenstar at 10:10 PM on October 25, 2014

Yeah no, the more I think about it the more I am rejecting the whole concept, contrived or not, of Nicki Minaj.
posted by AElfwine Evenstar at 10:13 PM on October 25, 2014

Again, that's my own personal choice for my daughter and not to be imposed on anyone else. God, I hope I don't fuck her up.
posted by AElfwine Evenstar at 10:15 PM on October 25, 2014 [1 favorite]

Minaj is a fair to good pop star.

I don't know a lot about pop, but I'm a bit of a rap snob and I'll always love Nicki for completely upstaging Kanye, Jay-Z, and Rick Ross with her dope-as-fuck guest verse on Monster.
posted by AceRock at 10:34 PM on October 25, 2014 [9 favorites]

She's definitely gotten better over the past couple of years, and she has her moments, but maybe aside from Ross I wouldn't exactly say she's more talented than any of them.
posted by P.o.B. at 10:57 PM on October 25, 2014

My rule of thumb is: Whenever you think, is this good for my children, you're reducing art to a didactic function that specifically benefits or does not benefit your immediate family.

I mean, that's certainly one way to interpret art, and it's well within your rights to decide you don't like a piece of art as a result, but it is so personal and self-concerned an approach to art to be useless as a rubric outside your specific needs.

Also, from my perspective, every piece of art that upset my father was good for me.
posted by maxsparber at 11:04 PM on October 25, 2014 [23 favorites]

I just happened to stumble on this article about Whitney Cummings that raises the same sort of points about power and gender. Because I am channel surfing the HD broadcast TV spectrum and she's hosting Comedy.TV, and simultaneously surfing teh Google and teh Meef and finding intersectionality like whoa

PQ:

"I do a big section in the show about orgasms and how hard it is for a woman to have them, which I think a lot of women have shame about. So I do a thing where I show what an orgasm really looks like. Someone might boil that down to, ‘Oh that’s a vagina joke, or a sex joke.’ But that’s not what it’s about. It’s about standing up for yourself, having power, and being honest.”

posted by aydeejones at 12:11 AM on October 26, 2014 [1 favorite]

God, I hope I don't fuck her up.

You may not mean to, but you will.
posted by Ice Cream Socialist at 12:32 AM on October 26, 2014 [9 favorites]

P.o.B.: “Anaconda is simply a paean to dick, nothing more.... The title is kind of a giveaway.”

Also: Gone With The Wind is about weather patterns, and Casablanca is about a white house in Spain.

How many times does Nicki Minaj mention dick in the song, even using the elaborate euphemisms to which she is given?

I'll save you the effort: zero. Once you actually listen to the song, it makes no sense whatsoever to call it a "paean to dick." Even if you dislike the song completely, you'd have to characterize it as a "paean to butts," not a "paean to dick." There is no sense in which the song is remotely about dick.

There's more to say about the silly misplaced character of the central sample that forms the hook, from which the title of the song is draw: for one thing, it is clear from the context of the lyrics that Nicki is not praising or lifting up Sir Mix-A-Lot's bravado and loud exclusivity but rather exploiting it for financial gain, so that it seems as though she's interrogating the male sexual power complex in rap and turning it on its head. But I don't know how much I want to get into that.

I just know – I mean, geez, if you listen to the song at all, you know it's totally not about dick.
posted by koeselitz at 1:59 AM on October 26, 2014 [4 favorites]

The question of whether Nicki Minaj is empowering to my daughter is a question for my daughter.

Ultimately, it's not about me.
Which, as a straight white dude, is counter to everything I've been taught for my entire life.

I too hope I don't fuck it up. Well I hope I give her enough tools and knowledge to be able to combat the truly horrible shitshow that is the way women are treated by "our society".
posted by fullerine at 2:03 AM on October 26, 2014 [6 favorites]

I think there's more to this than just the "control of sexuality" thing. That's a pillar of the outrage, but another huge part of it is sort of related to the kool aid point thing.

Pretty much, that she is effortlessly good at self promotion, marketing, and getting the maximum number of eyeballs on her work. There's substance in the work and in the promotion and strategy there, but it pretty much proves the point that the people who cry "attention whore!" aren't just gamergate nerds on the internet.

Just as big as the sexual agency thing, imo, is that there's a large contingent of people who think Nicki and a lot of other female pop stars/artists are getting attention outsize from how big their work is, or the perceived effort put in to that work.

pretty much tl;dr: a large return on investment and/or good marketing is only ok when men do it in silicon valley.

I can't really push my brain away from thinking the "omg stop giving her attention you've drank the kool aid stupid attention whore omg!" thing is playing a giant part here even when it's outraged conservative journalists who are way, way older than the typical nerdbro you hear launching that attack.
posted by emptythought at 2:08 AM on October 26, 2014 [1 favorite]

Am I objectifying if I have full control of my appearance and body as an object - and I'll use it to manipulate and take advantage of the norms of patriarchy for my own gain, to boot?

Because that's how I read the video at least.
posted by Pyrogenesis at 2:14 AM on October 26, 2014

"How many times does Nicki Minaj mention dick in the song, even using the elaborate euphemisms to which she is given?

I'll save you the effort: zero."

Not that this refutes your broader point, and it's definitely nitpicking, but c'mon...
The song mentions 'dick' a few times. Once, using the word 'dick', once euphemising to 'tower/Eiffel's' and once euphemising to 'rifle'.

Maybe not a 'paean to dick', but it's not something that goes unmentioned either.
posted by still bill at 4:17 AM on October 26, 2014 [3 favorites]

I had heard of her in the last year and just googled the song to listen to it. I was horrified to see it had 269 million views and I had never ever heard the song in my life. Or apparently any other song she has ever performed. I feel old and irrelevant.

Is there anything else in modern culture I should know about?
posted by taff at 4:45 AM on October 26, 2014

How old are your daughters?

I can absolutely see why you may not particularly want to expose a 4-year-old to Nicki Minaj's songs (though I have a four year old daughter and I love Nicki and play her music around the house all the time). Her messaging is built for the world it inhabits. It is extremely pro-women and particulary pro-women-owning-their-own-sexuality. A big part of how it gets there though is by embracing all of the sexy eye-candy male gaze tropes and then adding all this aggression designed to make an objectifying onlooker uncomfortable.

It is a brilliant and beautiful use of art. It's also very complex and (as this thread shows!) it's easy to watch her videos and seen nothing but ass-shaking and f-bombs.

At 4-years-old, maybe Nicki isn't the role model I hope my daughters latch on to. But at 20-years-old? I would be very happy to hear that Nicki was one of their role models.

All of which without even considering the fact that she is a fucking incredible musician and her songs are extremely valuable just as compositions and performances.
posted by 256 at 5:26 AM on October 26, 2014 [10 favorites]

Pretty much, that she is effortlessly good at self promotion, marketing, and getting the maximum number of eyeballs on her work. There's substance in the work and in the promotion and strategy there, but it pretty much proves the point that the people who cry "attention whore!" aren't just gamergate nerds on the internet.

Nobody who cries attention whore is ever right.
posted by maxsparber at 6:20 AM on October 26, 2014 [5 favorites]

Am I objectifying if I have full control of my appearance and body as an object - and I'll use it to manipulate and take advantage of the norms of patriarchy for my own gain, to boot?

The question is, can you take advantage of something without making yourself dependent on it? Taking control of your sexuality and personal brand is extremely powerful within a system where you have to have a sexuality and you can't realistically aspire to be anything but your own brand.

Nicki Minaj is really powerful and effective as a kind of brilliant, subversive entrepreneur, but her success is conditional on a system that rewards entrepreneurship and posits itself as a meritocracy of talent and savvy.

It's unfair to ask anyone to do more; she's done more than most people can imagine. But there's more to be done for an "us" that surely includes "her." But yes, Nicki Minaj is a giant leap in the right direction. Nobody can be the whole trip.
posted by kewb at 6:41 AM on October 26, 2014 [2 favorites]

I have never listened to any Nicki Minaj and know almost nothing about her. I consider myself a feminist but I am having a hard time understanding how shaming women of different body types

Fuck those skinny bitches,
Fuck those skinny bitches in the club

is not misogynist. I get that she is owning her own sexuality and celebrating (certain) women's bodies, which is great, but she's also denigrating other women at the same time for not fitting into yet another specification for how a woman's body must look.
posted by Librarypt at 6:46 AM on October 26, 2014 [3 favorites]

> I feel old and irrelevant. Is there anything else in modern culture I should know about?

If it makes you feel better, earlier this week I was looking for the Anaconda Python distribution. So I type in 'anaconda' in the search box and … eh? Oh.

(I then typed in 'anaconda python' which at least got me what I wanted, as well as pictures of snakes. My husband was amused that I'd expected the Anaconda Python distribution to be the top search result for a search on 'anaconda'. Then I told him to get off my lawn.)
posted by research monkey at 6:48 AM on October 26, 2014 [1 favorite]

"Kanye's a genius."

You hear this a lot from people in the industry.

I'm not that into Prince, but I understand why he's a genius. I'm not really into Neil Daimond, but I understand why he's a genius.

I still have no fucking clue why Kanye is supposed to be a genius.
posted by clarknova at 8:52 AM on October 26, 2014 [3 favorites]

it's actually pretty similar to prince, whether you like his output or not, he's pulling all the levers and pushing all the buttons. there are also similarities in how they're dismissed as weird egotistical crybabies while they are actually making some pretty good points interspersed with all their antics. i see them both as superb artistic and musical minds who struggle with their celebrity while simultaneously seeking it out.
posted by nadawi at 9:02 AM on October 26, 2014 [8 favorites]

I get that she is owning her own sexuality and celebrating (certain) women's bodies, which is great, but she's also denigrating other women at the same time for not fitting into yet another specification for how a woman's body must look.

She's really not. Anaconda is not a song about how great it is to have a big butt. Again, it's easy to listen to the song and take "fuck those skinny bitches" at face value, but the not very hidden subtext is "fuck you if you try to reduce any woman to her body."
posted by 256 at 9:16 AM on October 26, 2014

She's really not. Anaconda is not a song about how great it is to have a big butt.

All the women in the video shaking their butts and touching each other's butts seem to suggest otherwise.

Again, it's easy to listen to the song and take "fuck those skinny bitches" at face value, but the not very hidden subtext is "fuck you if you try to reduce any woman to her body."

After watching the video, I very strongly disagree with this interpretation.
posted by Librarypt at 10:28 AM on October 26, 2014 [1 favorite]

"but the not very hidden subtext is 'fuck you if you try to reduce any woman to her body.' "

I can see this subtext in some of Nicki Minaj's work (and there, frequently not as subtext, because it's often right up front), but I don't see it at all in Anaconda. The song, at least (not the video, which does seem to inject something into the text), seems almost devoid of any subtext at all.
posted by still bill at 10:58 AM on October 26, 2014

> I still have no fucking clue why Kanye is supposed to be a genius.

Yay a Kanye derail!

"Because his production for others, and later his solo work started trends in pop music that influenced more artists than Elvis" is a good answer.
posted by thedaniel at 11:01 AM on October 26, 2014 [5 favorites]

There's a recurring strand of thought on Metafilter to the effect that Minaj completely and unproblematically transcends the partriarchy and it just seems ridiculous to me.
posted by leopard at 11:03 AM on October 26, 2014 [5 favorites]

the subtext isn't even that buried, she is actively shitting on traditional rap guy masculinity most of song. even if you take the skinny bitches line at face value it is pretty much on the same level as misandry or cracker jokes. or, more on topic, it's similar to the jane fonda part of the song it samples. it's a clap back to all the beckys.
posted by nadawi at 11:08 AM on October 26, 2014 [6 favorites]

All the women in the video shaking their butts and touching each other's butts seem to suggest otherwise.

The video is in a lot of ways actually a reclamation of twerking from being something nice white girls do to look 'edgy', but Nicki Minaj and race is an entirely different thread.
posted by Itaxpica at 11:09 AM on October 26, 2014 [1 favorite]

Overanalizing a plate of butts?
posted by mantecol at 11:45 AM on October 26, 2014 [3 favorites]

So apparently my thing now, as I learned last night, when I drink a bunch of vodka, I start saying randomly, I have a big fat caaaaat

Because I do have a big fat caaaat who jumps in my chair to sleep and hisses when I try to get her out of it. I dunno, I feel there's a little bit of Nicki Minaj in that cat.
posted by angrycat at 12:54 PM on October 26, 2014 [2 favorites]

as in the cat don't take no shit. also the cat does have a huge fluffy butt, so there you go
posted by angrycat at 12:55 PM on October 26, 2014 [2 favorites]

Well, I don't have an opinion either way about Nicki's message on feminity per say. However I do want to say that I did quite enjoy that video. Oh yes.
posted by Vindaloo at 1:55 PM on October 26, 2014

She's really not. Anaconda is not a song about how great it is to have a big butt. Again, it's easy to listen to the song and take "fuck those skinny bitches" at face value, but the not very hidden subtext is "fuck you if you try to reduce any woman to her body."

Thanks to some very good comments, many by naju and nadawi, what I take from it is "If you want to try and fetishize and diminish me, know that I am more than capable of turning that around and showing you exactly where real power and autonomy come from." Basically, if you want to play a zero-sum game along race/gender lines, Nicki Minaj can make damn sure that you end up with the zero and she ends up with the sum; and so can anyone you try to pull it on. And if you don't like that, implicitly, maybe try finding another, fairer kind of game to play?
posted by kewb at 2:46 PM on October 26, 2014

"Fuck those skinny bitches" is said in a voice -- I mean a literal voice -- that is clearly not Minaj's actual voice. She is not saying it seriously.
posted by callmejay at 3:58 PM on October 26, 2014 [1 favorite]

As opposed to the other lyrics in the song, which are said with heartfelt sincerity.
posted by leopard at 4:12 PM on October 26, 2014

Look, the thing is that her songs, and her videos, are really obviously trying to work on two separate wavelengths. They are meant to be enjoyable as uncomplicated club hits and eye candy montages, but if you squint even a little bit, this whole other, much more nuanced, message comes into focus.

It's so clear, I really don't even know how I can help someone see it if they're blind to it. I get that it might be in a sort of cultural code, but there are just so many strong subtextual markers altering the literal meaning of her words. And her ass.

I mean, watch the video starting right here. Note not just the cutting of the banana, but listen to her voice when she says "He love this fat ass" and then laughs maniacally and gratingly. From that point on, including the "fuck those skinny bitches" line, I can't see any reading of the text that is not explicitly working to show the absurdity of the big butt objectifiers.

You don't have to like the song. And maybe you can't get past the use of sexist tropes and imagery to deliver a feminist message. But saying that it's just a song about butts is like saying Orwell's Animal Farm is just a story about talking animals.
posted by 256 at 4:35 PM on October 26, 2014 [7 favorites]

There's a recurring strand of thought on Metafilter to the effect that Minaj completely and unproblematically transcends the partriarchy and it just seems ridiculous to me.

Please provide a citation to where anyone has ever said in earnest that anything completely and unproblematically transcends patriarchy.

I'd be super startled to learn anyone had said such a thing about Ms. Minaj.
posted by winna at 4:36 PM on October 26, 2014 [3 favorites]

Please provide a citation to where anyone has ever said in earnest that anything completely and unproblematically transcends patriarchy.

Here's someone writing in all seriousness:

ultimately, no one is forcing Nicki Minaj to dress and act like a coquettish Barbie. Everything she does is of her own volition, and she is not submissive to patriarchy. Rather, Nicki takes patriarchal notions of femininity and womanhood, reclaims them, and makes them work for her. In doing so, she reverses the paradigm of female inferiority and submissiveness and creates a model of empowerment for those who look up to her.

which help triggered a rather lengthy discussion on Metafilter.
posted by leopard at 6:02 PM on October 26, 2014 [1 favorite]

Has anyone actually asked Nicki Minaj what her songs/videos mean? Everyone seems to love to interpret her songs and videos but what does she say? I'm mean I'm really unsure what the empowering subtext is in, say, "Stupid Hoe".

But, fuck you stupid hoe
Yeah, fuck you stupid hoe
I said fuck a stupid hoe,
Yeah, fuck a stupid hoe
I said fuck a stupid hoe,
Yeah, fuck a stupid hoe
I said fuck a stupid hoe
Yeah, fuck a stupid hoe

Of course being a man this could be going right over my head.
posted by MikeMc at 6:21 PM on October 26, 2014 [1 favorite]

that is a specific diss track to little kim - maybe you don't listen to a lot of rap but diss tracks are very common. i'm not sure why every single thing a woman does has to be empowering or else she's not allowed to sit at the feminist table.
posted by nadawi at 6:32 PM on October 26, 2014 [8 favorites]

that is a specific diss track to little kim

Ah, now it makes sense. I am familiar with diss tracks but I didn't realize this track was a personal attack (oh shit that rhymed!).

i'm not sure why every single thing a woman does has to be empowering or else she's not allowed to sit at the feminist table.

Not every single thing a woman does but Nicki Minaj, being the acme of feminine empowerment (at least on MeFi), gets held to a higher standard. Maybe. What the hell do I know? I'm one of those people who views the term "empowerment" with the same skepticism as "survivor".
posted by MikeMc at 6:40 PM on October 26, 2014

oh so your just taking the piss (and weirdly throwing in digs at abuse victims, charming).
posted by nadawi at 6:51 PM on October 26, 2014

In that specific example the writer isn't saying that she transcends patriarchy, rather that she's using patriarchal concepts to interrogate the notion, which is very different.

But she has magical eyelashes and fabulous shoes so let's all blame her for the world in which she lives and has to work.
posted by winna at 6:53 PM on October 26, 2014 [3 favorites]

(and weirdly throwing in digs at abuse victims, charming)

This isn't really that discussion but I couldn't help but notice you didn't use the term "abuse survivor".
posted by MikeMc at 6:57 PM on October 26, 2014

Yup winna, let's all blame Nicki Minaj for everything, that is exactly the nuanced reasonable reading of my comment that the world was so sorely lacking.

The other thing that the world was desperately missing was the fun merry-go-round of "Nicki Minaj is the most subversive feminist in history" and "why are you guys being so ridiculous in holding her to such an impossible standard, no one would ever say something so silly." Rinse and repeat.
posted by leopard at 7:17 PM on October 26, 2014 [1 favorite]

the terms i choose as someone who has been sexually assaulted and raped are none of your business. something i wouldn't do is mock others who have been through similar things based on the words they use to describe their trauma - that takes a pretty stunning lack of empathy and manners.
posted by nadawi at 7:23 PM on October 26, 2014 [4 favorites]

I'm just being cantankerous for no good reason, that I apologize for. But I wasn't "mocking" anyone.
posted by MikeMc at 8:01 PM on October 26, 2014 [1 favorite]

You know what's funny is the way "how could a young woman possibly find Nicki Minaj empowering/ a good role model" discussion doesn't have the imagination to go beyond "but the sexualization!" When, I dunno, you could be talking about the role model of a woman at the top of her game and in control of her career in the fucking music industry? Why are we still talking about when she did or did not show how much of her ass as if that's all she's about?
posted by atoxyl at 1:35 AM on October 27, 2014 [1 favorite]

maxsparber: Nobody who cries attention whore is ever right.

I wasn't clear if you thought i was saying that? My only point was that it's not the traditional group of people saying it here.

It's old people, who generally have positions of relative power in some sort of media rather than somewhat anonymous young internet nerds. That's something i don't see that often.

If you got that though and that wasn't directed at me, then disregard this.

leopard: There's a recurring strand of thought on Metafilter to the effect that Minaj completely and unproblematically transcends the partriarchy and it just seems ridiculous to me.

Hey, you got a bunch of shit for this, but i just want to say i hear what you're saying. There's hyperbole in that statement, but i understand the vibe completely. I could make a list of famous women artists this consistently happens with(Beyonce would be on there, for sure), because it's absolutely a thing. And it's a thing i regularly encounter outside of mefi and in meatspace especially among my Artsy Progressive Twenty-Something friends.

There's definitely this strong pushback to any criticism by people who, understandably, seem to be really tired of seeing lady artists and musicians get shit on for essentially daring to do anything to the point that it seems like any criticism is out of line and they can Do No Wrong or whatever.

There's people who are kinda by default on the list, and then there's threads like the Lena Dunham thread where people try and mount that horse and bust out the whole "Oh wow, i wonder if any of this criticism would be mounted against a man? yea, i WONDER" sort of comments and everyone brofists and gangs up on anyone who says anything negative.

This sort of thing results in an insular mobius strip where you get people saying stuff like, yea, what you linked to. Or people having to qualify any negative thoughts by listing off a bunch of positive ones and going "I mean i really really like them and bla bla bla bla" first and basically turn it into an essay.

As i said above, i think Nicki is pretty cool, i also think Beyonce is pretty cool. The, basically, fanwank and how-dare-you shit that goes on whenever a discussion about them or any number of other lady artists comes up is pretty damn tired though. It's like pushback beyond the point of parity, to where any criticism is somehow instantly misogyny or that you must be some type of terrible person with shitty beliefs and motives if you can even write it or... something. The vitriol that comes out in tearing down any criticism is pretty crappy.
posted by emptythought at 4:11 AM on October 27, 2014 [2 favorites]

Of course, a bunch of lazy 'oh god a woman being vulgar! how horrifying for my daughters to be exposed to such filth!' gets tedious, too.

I'm off to pop some wheelies on my BMX and fist bump the fiendish feminist cabal now - brb!
posted by winna at 5:52 AM on October 27, 2014 [1 favorite]

To continue the derail in the last few comments, I see the objectification question as akin to the n-word debate. People have spent centuries demeaning me with this word, so I'm going to use it, I'm sure that'll show them.
posted by Octaviuz at 6:10 AM on October 27, 2014

After watching the video nadawi posted waaay up thread, I have a new perspective on Nicki Minaj that gives me some things I can appreciate about her (outside of her technical skills as a rapper, which are substantial) as well as a more solid understanding of what I don't like about her, and why I think she's problematic. On the plus side, her point about her assertiveness making her 'a bitch' while making Rick Ross 'bossed up' is a great point (not particularly new, of course, but it's awesome to see a woman with her power and voice making the point from within hip hop), and she makes it well in that video.

The other side, for me, is that I don't really want Nicki Minaj or Rick Ross to be 'bossed up', if that means demanding bigger budgets, fancy champagne, and the right to be a jerk to people and determine the worth of others by the size of their bank account. Unfortunately, that's what being 'bossed up' means in rap right now, and that's not exactly Nicki Minaj's problem, and it's definitely not her fault. I just don't want more bosses, I want less bosses. So, as long as there is good rap coming out that pushes against the 'bossed up' framework, I guess I can get what I need from that, without worrying about Ross, Drake, Nicki, Wayne and all these other fucking bosses.
posted by still bill at 8:15 AM on October 27, 2014 [1 favorite]

Of course, a bunch of lazy 'oh god a woman being vulgar! how horrifying for my daughters to be exposed to such filth!' gets tedious, too.

Yeah, cause repressive desublimation is totally not a thing. The vulgarity is not really problematic to me.
posted by AElfwine Evenstar at 4:28 PM on October 27, 2014

You're completely fine in asking what kind of values you should stand by and uphold when it comes to your children, AElfwine. Last I checked that certainly falls under the rubric for parenting, and it's certainly ridiculous for others to admonish you for it.
Although, as an echo chamber thread, it is lollingly funny. As an example:
My Anaconda don't...
My Anaconda don't...
My Anaconda don't want none unless you got buns hun

Boy toy named Troy used to live in Detroit
Big dope dealer money, he was getting some coins
Was in shootouts with the law, but he live in a palace
Bought me Alexander McQueen, he was keeping me stylish
Now that's real, real, real,
Gun in my purse, bitch I came dressed to kill
Who wanna go first? I had them pushing daffodils
I'm high as hell, I only took a half of pill
I'm on some dumb shit

That's just part of the first verse and it recounts having sex, getting high, and shooting people. Also, dick, because unless someone is on some dumb shit then it's pretty clear what "anaconda" means. So a regular old rap song that doesn't support any random ideas people have proposed here.
Even the supposed "subtext" in the video has no support. Really, no one has even offered an explanation for it other than we're supposed to be impressed with her fruit ninja skills for some reason. If we are looking for subtext, why only that half second? The subversion should be apparent throughout the video. How does the whip cream on the breasts (simulated ejaculate) work to subvert the male gaze? The fact of the matter is that it doesn't, nor does the rest of the video, and is actually reinforced in every scene. If we're sitting around going "yay sexuality" that's one thing, if we're supposed to be understanding some inherent message then someone at least could try to connect the plainly obvious dots that the rest of us simpletons can't see. I'm sure the following argument will be all about me and how wrong I am because I can't see how feminist Minaj is due to the fact she doesn't charge Drake for the lap dance...or something.
And what does Minaj really have to say about her video:
"I don't know what there is to really talk about," she says. "I'm being serious. I just see the video as being a normal video."

I guess that clears it up.
posted by P.o.B. at 2:32 PM on October 28, 2014 [3 favorites]

no one is telling anyone how to parent their kids - we're saying that "For me the question is does Minaj's image empower my daughter or disempower her? " isn't actually related to whether or not someone is a feminist. what one dude thinks his daughter should watch or listen to isn't a sound platform for feminism in art. it's actually a pretty patriarchal view of what acceptable femininity looks like.

Really, no one has even offered an explanation for it other than we're supposed to be impressed with her fruit ninja skills for some reason.

this is just flatly untrue. we had two gigantic threads before this one about this song and the cover where there was in depth discussion of the subtext. for me it boils down to if you don't know what it looks like when a woman is looking at you with obvious disdain i don't know how to help you see what's happening in the video. the other subtext to the song, and nicki's whole career, is that she's a video girl come to life but scratch the surface and she's no where near what she's been portrayed - there's a shiv hiding in her daisy dukes. i can see people not liking it, not thinking it's effective, etc, but to straight out deny that it's there - i don't get that.
posted by nadawi at 9:27 AM on October 29, 2014 [4 favorites]

I'm not going to get into a stupid argument about the conflation between sound parenting and dictatorial patriarchy.

there was in depth discussion of the subtext.

In all seriousness, could you please link to one comment that amounts to more than "she chopped a banana...subtext!"? Or maybe even give a condensed version? A hint?

for me it boils down to if you don't know what it looks like when a woman is looking at you with obvious disdain i don't know how to help you see what's happening in the video.

So, I'm supposed to see disdain...? That's a very broad and faulty explanation. Would you like to actually build support and draw conclusions for this idea instead of simply implicating anyone who *ahem* "doesn't get it"?

Or not. I also like to make believe Ferris Bueller is Tyler Durden so I can dig it.
posted by P.o.B. at 11:30 AM on October 30, 2014 [1 favorite]

he's the one that made that conflation - suggesting that things can't be feminist if he can't figure out how they'd be empowering to his daughter - and, in fact, he also said In other words, maybe it is me embodying the patriarchy, by default, that is preventing me from seeing any inherent value.

it's really not just the banana - it's her look of disdain and power the whole time, it's the way she talks about the guys, it's her vocal inflections and timing, it's how it fits into her repeated themes as an artist. if you're not willing to read the threads where these things are discussed then i'm not sure why you want me to type up a big deconstruction which you're likely going to dismiss out of hand with some line about not being able to understand facial expressions. so, you know, dislike the song and think it's crap - you have my permission.
posted by nadawi at 4:15 PM on October 30, 2014 [2 favorites]

P.o.B.: “So, I'm supposed to see disdain...?”

I dunno, but I sure am hearing a ton of it from you in this thread.
posted by koeselitz at 4:38 PM on October 30, 2014 [2 favorites]

Oh I read the other threads, and there was never any deep discussion. Just people saying there was subtext without ever actually clearly establishing those ideas, and then some deflection. The same as this thread. Whatevs. I think the song is not bad, but just a poppy little tune. The song or video doesn't raise itself above what it was simply made to be. Basically, the same thing that Lil' Kim, and others, have already been doing for a long time already.

I dunno, but I sure am hearing a ton of it from you in this thread.

You win, bro. Every bit of disdain in this thread is coming from me. Let me know when you want to discuss the topic instead of me, ok?
posted by P.o.B. at 5:06 PM on October 30, 2014

Not trying to win, but what exactly is your point in this thread? It just sounds like you don't like the song, and wanted to tell people who do like the song that they are wrong. I'm not sure what outcome you were hoping for here.
posted by koeselitz at 8:10 PM on October 30, 2014

Let me know when you want to discuss the topic instead of your opinions on my behavior, ok?
posted by P.o.B. at 7:42 AM on October 31, 2014

To be clear, I think Minaj is honest. I don't think she tries to present any kind of meta-textual ideas in this song or video. If the contention is that this is part of a larger theme for her then it's not something I've seen or could speak to. I think she is successful in delivering what people want, and deserves the accolades she gets. I don't necessarily think that means I have to believe every single interpretation of her work.
posted by P.o.B. at 10:50 AM on October 31, 2014

honest in the quote? you mean in the article where at the end of the interview she gives a little sly nod to that banana cutting that you find completely inconsequential? you don't have to believe every interpretation of her work, but that's different than telling everyone else they are wrong.
posted by nadawi at 11:00 AM on October 31, 2014

i mean, she also says : "I think the video [is] about what girls do ... Girls love being with other girls, and when you go back to us being younger, we would have slumber parties and we'd be dancing with our friends." so i guess that's exactly what it's about - just a slumber party - because that's what she said. or, maybe artists sometimes are antagonistic to interviewers trying to pin down their work.
posted by nadawi at 11:04 AM on October 31, 2014

Chopping the banana is not inconsequential. It is as consequential as any other part of the video, like the spraying of whip cream.
posted by P.o.B. at 1:06 PM on October 31, 2014

he's the one that made that conflation - suggesting that things can't be feminist if he can't figure out how they'd be empowering to his daughter

No, I didn't actually say that at all. In fact, if you reread my comments I don't think I've used the word feminist one time. What I was saying is exactly what I said. I am doubtful that Nicki Minaj is in any way empowering to women. Not being a woman I guess my wife will probably be having a lot more say than me in making those decisions about what empowers our daughter.
posted by AElfwine Evenstar at 5:09 PM on November 3, 2014

or you could listen to all the women who are saying they feel empowered by nicki minaj.
posted by nadawi at 5:15 PM on November 3, 2014 [1 favorite]

or you could listen to all the women who are saying they feel empowered by nicki minaj.

I am listening and am still dubious. Again, repressive desublimation is still a thing...which leads to the question: if Nicki Minaj is empowering in her "art," why is the only power she has...besides firearms...her body? She uses her sexuality to get what she wants. In this neoliberal commodification of the female form her ability to wear "Alexander McQueen" and keep "stylish" is all dependent on Troy having the following disposition:

"He keep telling me it's real, that he love my sex appeal
Because he don't like 'em boney, he want something he can grab"

In the next verse Minaj's ability to wear Balmain and support her cocaine habit is again dependent on her letting Michael "hit it" and "toss her salad." So it seems to me, and maybe I'm missing some deep subtext here, that Minaj has made her body a commodity with which she can get what she wants. I am confused as to how any women is being empowered by being prompted to view her sexuality and female form as mere items in a marketplace.

It would be nice if you link to a comment in one of the previous threads which lays it all out in plain English. That way I can actually evaluate your claims about the subtext instead of you just asserting your point and making and argumentum ad populum.
posted by AElfwine Evenstar at 6:48 PM on November 3, 2014 [3 favorites]