Yes, Military Comission For You
April 8, 2011 5:35 AM Subscribe
NYC mayor: Military trial appropriate in 9/11 case. Khalid Sheikh Mohammed will be tried at a military tribunal in Guantanamo. US Lawmakers Say Politics Played Role in Military Trial Decision. Attorney General Eric Holder blames congress for forcing his hand on this. Slate blasts the Obama administration as "Cowardly, Stupid, and Tragically Wrong". Previously, the opposite.
It's almost shocking how little I care about what Michael Bloomberg thinks about this.
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 5:40 AM on April 8, 2011 [3 favorites]
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 5:40 AM on April 8, 2011 [3 favorites]
Who gives a shit where the trial takes place? It's a forgone conclusion, and the idea that this could damage any reputation for justice that the US has is, at this point, fucking brain-injured ranting.
I feel bad for kangaroos.
posted by pompomtom at 5:43 AM on April 8, 2011 [6 favorites]
I feel bad for kangaroos.
posted by pompomtom at 5:43 AM on April 8, 2011 [6 favorites]
(torture me enough and I will retract the previous comment)
posted by pompomtom at 5:46 AM on April 8, 2011
posted by pompomtom at 5:46 AM on April 8, 2011
by trying him in a military tribunal we admit that KSM is a soldier, not a criminal mass-murderer. By killing him we will make him a martyr.
Like the "War on Drugs" it shows that the people who are proponents of the "War on Terror" are deeply unserious about the project...
posted by ennui.bz at 6:07 AM on April 8, 2011 [4 favorites]
Like the "War on Drugs" it shows that the people who are proponents of the "War on Terror" are deeply unserious about the project...
posted by ennui.bz at 6:07 AM on April 8, 2011 [4 favorites]
This entire mess is disgusting, and the people most at fault are the American masses. They're the ones who think that someone merely accused of terrorism is automatically guilty, and has no rights. They're the ones who called their congressmen by the thousands to scream about the possibility that any of the accused, even those who manifestly have done nothing against the USA, never be tried in a real court and never be allowed to resettle here. None of this shit-show could have happened if Americans knew a damned thing about their own due process rights, and basic human rights and humanitarian law.
posted by 1adam12 at 6:13 AM on April 8, 2011 [12 favorites]
posted by 1adam12 at 6:13 AM on April 8, 2011 [12 favorites]
If the American legal system isn't good enough for a total scumbag like Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, I can't imagine why I should consider myself bound by it.
posted by Naberius at 6:18 AM on April 8, 2011 [15 favorites]
posted by Naberius at 6:18 AM on April 8, 2011 [15 favorites]
None of this shit-show could have happened if Americans knew cared a damned thing about their own due process rights, and basic human rights and humanitarian law.
posted by Legomancer at 6:18 AM on April 8, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by Legomancer at 6:18 AM on April 8, 2011 [1 favorite]
1adam12, you're being generous, the type of people who think that accused terrorists have no rights tend to extend that policy to all kinds of folks.
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 6:19 AM on April 8, 2011 [2 favorites]
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 6:19 AM on April 8, 2011 [2 favorites]
You know, when DAVID IGLESIAS was sent down there to 'reform' the military tribunals process, I had high hopes for cleaning this extrajudicial mess up while preserving whatever honor and dignity is left.
But now it seems like he just disappeared, too...
posted by mikelieman at 6:20 AM on April 8, 2011 [1 favorite]
But now it seems like he just disappeared, too...
posted by mikelieman at 6:20 AM on April 8, 2011 [1 favorite]
Say what you want about how Congress forced Obama's hand today by making it all but impossible to try the 9/11 conspirators in regular Article III courts. The only lesson learned is that Obama's hand can be forced.
Yeah, turns out we have co-equal branches of government, who knew?
If a majority of congressmen were devoted to a principle higher than "How Will This Poll?" and "Not In My Back Yard", KSM would be having a civilian trial. Obama is not King of America.
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 6:48 AM on April 8, 2011 [4 favorites]
Yeah, turns out we have co-equal branches of government, who knew?
If a majority of congressmen were devoted to a principle higher than "How Will This Poll?" and "Not In My Back Yard", KSM would be having a civilian trial. Obama is not King of America.
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 6:48 AM on April 8, 2011 [4 favorites]
Seems like Obama's hand gets forced an awful lot.
posted by Avenger at 6:53 AM on April 8, 2011 [9 favorites]
posted by Avenger at 6:53 AM on April 8, 2011 [9 favorites]
It's very difficult to change something when another branch of government has basically got veto powers. The US system of government is conservative by design.
posted by knapah at 6:59 AM on April 8, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by knapah at 6:59 AM on April 8, 2011 [1 favorite]
"We're gonna give you a fair trial, followed by a first-class hangin'." -- Brian Dennehy in Silverado
posted by kirkaracha at 7:17 AM on April 8, 2011
posted by kirkaracha at 7:17 AM on April 8, 2011
Seems like Obama's hand gets forced an awful lot.
That's what happens when the opposition party opposes.
posted by Skorgu at 7:17 AM on April 8, 2011
That's what happens when the opposition party opposes.
posted by Skorgu at 7:17 AM on April 8, 2011
That's what happens when the opposition party opposes.
I'd say "could we please get some Democrats to do that shit?", but I'm pretty sure it wouldn't help in this case. When I figured out about Japanese internment during WWII, I used to wonder what it would be like to live through that and know what our country was doing, and I guess I've found out.
posted by immlass at 7:21 AM on April 8, 2011 [2 favorites]
I'd say "could we please get some Democrats to do that shit?", but I'm pretty sure it wouldn't help in this case. When I figured out about Japanese internment during WWII, I used to wonder what it would be like to live through that and know what our country was doing, and I guess I've found out.
posted by immlass at 7:21 AM on April 8, 2011 [2 favorites]
This just in: Bloomberg still a wealthy asshole. Trump furious, "He's doing my shtick. I want to be president!"
posted by Splunge at 7:24 AM on April 8, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by Splunge at 7:24 AM on April 8, 2011 [1 favorite]
It may be time to admit that the Obama administration has been a colossal failure.
posted by Optamystic at 7:41 AM on April 8, 2011 [4 favorites]
posted by Optamystic at 7:41 AM on April 8, 2011 [4 favorites]
Poor Obama always getting pushed around by the big mean congress. If only he were a leader with dictatorial powers...
posted by AElfwine Evenstar at 7:42 AM on April 8, 2011
posted by AElfwine Evenstar at 7:42 AM on April 8, 2011
Meet your new favorite concept
The Kangaroo Word (a word that contains letters of another word, in order, with the same meaning).
Maybe we can (S)(A)l(V)ag(E) justice yet, but to (C)(u)r(t)ail our established systems of justice, creating and relying on a (F)abr(I)(C)a(T)(I)(O)(N), is not so ho(n)(o)ra(ble) to do in the name of the (D)(e)ce(a)se(d), making justice systems up as we go makes me di(s)(a)ppointe(d).
This all shows inaction by We, the people; the 'other side' of governance; no matter how much a leader 'wanted' to make things better (what are things, who's better? -Bicker, bicker, no possible resolution), without people actaully, literally, 'going out' and saying, in words (preferrably, 4 or 5 in big letters), what they want, no change can come (this was the most frustrating thing, when people in droves started giving up in January 2010; look at the tea party, seriously, they made signs, and talked, and went around talking about "death panels" (no matter how far from factual this particular usage of the power of public airings... it stuck; because people put it on signs (which, yeah, you can make fun of for bad spelling; so what?) and wandered around with them (rather than seemingly assuming that because they are talking about the outrages on NPR, and Rachel that all is good, and we can just go back home, and everyone will be outraged too, and 'critique' the President... the game is politics, and "telling him how you could do better" is not a metric by which the coverage of the American system works, it works on bodies gathering.
Sadly, We have forgotten this. People love to defer to the media, and talk of how they control what happens, or what we see, but really, it was bodies, signs and standing which made it possible for something so counter factual as death panels to become memetic (maybe Fox helped rile people up, another thing which riled people up was seeing people making sustained effort to be visable, like a poll by mindshare; the media is not to be counted on to "disprove" falsehoods, or "keep em honest", I have seen a lot of Rile and outrage [sadly, against the president, like he could just legitimately reverse long established (but many feel really bad) policy without backlash, and without bodies, signs, and standing in support, it needs to be vocalized as "support for the Office Doing X", as the office is an instrument of the People, not a King. For him to just "announce" reversals; tell me, honestly, how the CNN, NYT, Reuters, bylines would read? Yay, 'we' elected the first African American President; and then solidly turned our collective backs, and denied that which is the only thing which could effect the 'change'desired vitally needed by so many.
People seem to have forgotten that the day after elections is not even remotely the end... but the beginning.
Convenient to blame the singular, when there are hundreds of Members in a coequal branch, with large budgets, mindshare, and tools created specifically for 'reaching out to the people'
posted by infinite intimation at 7:48 AM on April 8, 2011 [1 favorite]
The Kangaroo Word (a word that contains letters of another word, in order, with the same meaning).
Maybe we can (S)(A)l(V)ag(E) justice yet, but to (C)(u)r(t)ail our established systems of justice, creating and relying on a (F)abr(I)(C)a(T)(I)(O)(N), is not so ho(n)(o)ra(ble) to do in the name of the (D)(e)ce(a)se(d), making justice systems up as we go makes me di(s)(a)ppointe(d).
This all shows inaction by We, the people; the 'other side' of governance; no matter how much a leader 'wanted' to make things better (what are things, who's better? -Bicker, bicker, no possible resolution), without people actaully, literally, 'going out' and saying, in words (preferrably, 4 or 5 in big letters), what they want, no change can come (this was the most frustrating thing, when people in droves started giving up in January 2010; look at the tea party, seriously, they made signs, and talked, and went around talking about "death panels" (no matter how far from factual this particular usage of the power of public airings... it stuck; because people put it on signs (which, yeah, you can make fun of for bad spelling; so what?) and wandered around with them (rather than seemingly assuming that because they are talking about the outrages on NPR, and Rachel that all is good, and we can just go back home, and everyone will be outraged too, and 'critique' the President... the game is politics, and "telling him how you could do better" is not a metric by which the coverage of the American system works, it works on bodies gathering.
Sadly, We have forgotten this. People love to defer to the media, and talk of how they control what happens, or what we see, but really, it was bodies, signs and standing which made it possible for something so counter factual as death panels to become memetic (maybe Fox helped rile people up, another thing which riled people up was seeing people making sustained effort to be visable, like a poll by mindshare; the media is not to be counted on to "disprove" falsehoods, or "keep em honest", I have seen a lot of Rile and outrage [sadly, against the president, like he could just legitimately reverse long established (but many feel really bad) policy without backlash, and without bodies, signs, and standing in support, it needs to be vocalized as "support for the Office Doing X", as the office is an instrument of the People, not a King. For him to just "announce" reversals; tell me, honestly, how the CNN, NYT, Reuters, bylines would read? Yay, 'we' elected the first African American President; and then solidly turned our collective backs, and denied that which is the only thing which could effect the 'change'
People seem to have forgotten that the day after elections is not even remotely the end... but the beginning.
Convenient to blame the singular, when there are hundreds of Members in a coequal branch, with large budgets, mindshare, and tools created specifically for 'reaching out to the people'
posted by infinite intimation at 7:48 AM on April 8, 2011 [1 favorite]
Rather; January 2009 was the start of "hands in the air giving in".
posted by infinite intimation at 7:51 AM on April 8, 2011
posted by infinite intimation at 7:51 AM on April 8, 2011
How would you folks suggest Obama should have handled this? Please advise. I fail to see a single way in which this outcome is anything other than the result of the actions of Republicans in Congress.
Also: Bloomberg basically says straight up that he didn't want a civilian trial in NYC because it would cost money. That's where his interests lie as mayor. It doesn't mean military tribunals are the "just" thing to do, or that Bloomberg's opinion even matters on that count.
posted by dixiecupdrinking at 7:57 AM on April 8, 2011
Also: Bloomberg basically says straight up that he didn't want a civilian trial in NYC because it would cost money. That's where his interests lie as mayor. It doesn't mean military tribunals are the "just" thing to do, or that Bloomberg's opinion even matters on that count.
posted by dixiecupdrinking at 7:57 AM on April 8, 2011
"Poor Obama always getting pushed around by the big mean congress. "
Well, no, pathetic us, for not standing up back at the beginning of his term, turning our own issues into signs, and being seen in anything close to the sustained mass which the Opposition Suporters managed; before it became clear how many people had given up bare weeks into his term.
The way mindshare works is that when many citizens, on what is ostensibly his 'side' said "I disprove of _________________", what gets published, and printed as the headline of that poll is "Even LIBERALS DISPROVE of President and agenda", and then the next day it is just that much less likely that congressmembers will stick their neck out to work with him, and on and on....
So, no, the President is not a victim; we are letting ourselves down if 'we' actually feel any meaning behind what is outrageous (like the sustained abolition of rights for women, further institutionalizing of deeply racist policy, reactionary criminal/drug policies).
Saying what we Dislike is fairly easy; actually making positive policy statements, which are practical, lasting, agreeable, not needlessly reactionary, or hostile; any time "staking claims to ideas", or "setting one's flag on a particular hill" (when there are 300 odd million hills of possible importance) a political/public figure/head of an institution may have a vision, but getting 300 million (or 150 million I guess) to "GET" your vision, not to mention BACKING it (in a sustained manner). Those with no patience for the meandering of politics are certain to see nothing get done in a nation which operates on the principles set out in places like the Federalist Papers.
Happens in all institutions. The same thing happens when librarians who see the value in digital access collections (which looks nice, and sounds nice) but when it comes to changing an institutional set of conceptions... it gets bogged down in pettiness, or political posturing, or opposition to change, belief in 'the old ways', conservatism, or even just personality politics.
posted by infinite intimation at 8:21 AM on April 8, 2011 [1 favorite]
Well, no, pathetic us, for not standing up back at the beginning of his term, turning our own issues into signs, and being seen in anything close to the sustained mass which the Opposition Suporters managed; before it became clear how many people had given up bare weeks into his term.
The way mindshare works is that when many citizens, on what is ostensibly his 'side' said "I disprove of _________________", what gets published, and printed as the headline of that poll is "Even LIBERALS DISPROVE of President and agenda", and then the next day it is just that much less likely that congressmembers will stick their neck out to work with him, and on and on....
So, no, the President is not a victim; we are letting ourselves down if 'we' actually feel any meaning behind what is outrageous (like the sustained abolition of rights for women, further institutionalizing of deeply racist policy, reactionary criminal/drug policies).
Saying what we Dislike is fairly easy; actually making positive policy statements, which are practical, lasting, agreeable, not needlessly reactionary, or hostile; any time "staking claims to ideas", or "setting one's flag on a particular hill" (when there are 300 odd million hills of possible importance) a political/public figure/head of an institution may have a vision, but getting 300 million (or 150 million I guess) to "GET" your vision, not to mention BACKING it (in a sustained manner). Those with no patience for the meandering of politics are certain to see nothing get done in a nation which operates on the principles set out in places like the Federalist Papers.
Happens in all institutions. The same thing happens when librarians who see the value in digital access collections (which looks nice, and sounds nice) but when it comes to changing an institutional set of conceptions... it gets bogged down in pettiness, or political posturing, or opposition to change, belief in 'the old ways', conservatism, or even just personality politics.
posted by infinite intimation at 8:21 AM on April 8, 2011 [1 favorite]
The same thing happens when librarians who see the value in digital access collections (which looks nice, and sounds nice)...
And then you talk to a database vendor.
posted by stet at 8:33 AM on April 8, 2011 [1 favorite]
And then you talk to a database vendor.
posted by stet at 8:33 AM on April 8, 2011 [1 favorite]
So the president can bomb other countries without authorization from congress but he can't try detainees in civilian courts without authorization from congress? There is something wrong with this picture.
posted by AElfwine Evenstar at 8:43 AM on April 8, 2011 [4 favorites]
posted by AElfwine Evenstar at 8:43 AM on April 8, 2011 [4 favorites]
I'd say "could we please get some Democrats to do that shit?
We can't do what Republicans do. Republicans are uncivil and being civil is the most important thing in the world.
posted by furiousxgeorge at 9:16 AM on April 8, 2011 [3 favorites]
We can't do what Republicans do. Republicans are uncivil and being civil is the most important thing in the world.
posted by furiousxgeorge at 9:16 AM on April 8, 2011 [3 favorites]
Left: "We want our kangaroo court in the United States!"
Right: "We want our kangaroo court in Gitmo!"
Left: "Okay, we'll have our kangaroo court in Gitmo! Just stop being so mean to us!"
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 10:20 AM on April 8, 2011 [3 favorites]
Right: "We want our kangaroo court in Gitmo!"
Left: "Okay, we'll have our kangaroo court in Gitmo! Just stop being so mean to us!"
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 10:20 AM on April 8, 2011 [3 favorites]
not theater...Kabuki!
:)
I think we've gone over this before. While Kabuki is nice I much prefer Bunraku.
posted by AElfwine Evenstar at 10:53 AM on April 8, 2011 [1 favorite]
:)
I think we've gone over this before. While Kabuki is nice I much prefer Bunraku.
posted by AElfwine Evenstar at 10:53 AM on April 8, 2011 [1 favorite]
it stuck; because people put it on signs...
...and some really rich people got those signs shown on national cable news 24/7 for months. I would like to agree with you, but I just don't think it's the case. "We the people" no longer have any particular say over our national conversation. Or even, mostly, know what it's about.
posted by rusty at 11:50 AM on April 8, 2011 [1 favorite]
...and some really rich people got those signs shown on national cable news 24/7 for months. I would like to agree with you, but I just don't think it's the case. "We the people" no longer have any particular say over our national conversation. Or even, mostly, know what it's about.
posted by rusty at 11:50 AM on April 8, 2011 [1 favorite]
The fact that terror suspects are being tried in military tribunals is, if anything, a sign that "we the people" have too much say over the national conversation. This is a disappointingly majoritarian decision; it's bending to popular whim at the expense of any sort of broader principle. It seems to me that the conclusion you can't draw from military tribunals is that politicians are not listening to the American people.
posted by dixiecupdrinking at 11:55 AM on April 8, 2011 [5 favorites]
posted by dixiecupdrinking at 11:55 AM on April 8, 2011 [5 favorites]
Yeah, well. That's the other point of view. I can't decide which is more depressing.
posted by rusty at 1:10 PM on April 8, 2011
posted by rusty at 1:10 PM on April 8, 2011
AElfwine Evenstar: "not theater...Kabuki!
:)
I think we've gone over this before. While Kabuki is nice I much prefer Bunraku."
More like Bukkake. And guess who is the recipient?
posted by Splunge at 5:29 PM on April 8, 2011
:)
I think we've gone over this before. While Kabuki is nice I much prefer Bunraku."
More like Bukkake. And guess who is the recipient?
posted by Splunge at 5:29 PM on April 8, 2011
and I hope KSM has the most painful exisitence permitted under law.
posted by clavdivs at 7:13 PM on April 8, 2011
posted by clavdivs at 7:13 PM on April 8, 2011
Yeah, okay, it's all fucking Obama's fault. If either Bush bailed out the banks and a car manufacturer it would have been Republican gold. Instead it's big government at its worst.
Right?
And Planned Parenthood is a fraction of a percentage point of the budget, so let's shut down the damn government.
Right?
And the Kook Wing Right is just looking out for the people.
Right?
So government workers are the enemy. Especially those that are considered "non-essential" and get a "furlough" which means don't work and don't get paid.
Right?
So my 85 year old mom who is trying to pay for my father's funeral won't get her check for a month or so. That's cool.
Right?
They had an agreement a day ago. You do understand this, right? And then they (Republicans) decided to flex their alleged muscle and tanked the deal.
Right?
What's left?
Not a fucking thing.
Right?
posted by Splunge at 11:52 PM on April 8, 2011
Right?
And Planned Parenthood is a fraction of a percentage point of the budget, so let's shut down the damn government.
Right?
And the Kook Wing Right is just looking out for the people.
Right?
So government workers are the enemy. Especially those that are considered "non-essential" and get a "furlough" which means don't work and don't get paid.
Right?
So my 85 year old mom who is trying to pay for my father's funeral won't get her check for a month or so. That's cool.
Right?
They had an agreement a day ago. You do understand this, right? And then they (Republicans) decided to flex their alleged muscle and tanked the deal.
Right?
What's left?
Not a fucking thing.
Right?
posted by Splunge at 11:52 PM on April 8, 2011
We are all Republicans now.
Not even in the local, descriptive, sense mate...
posted by pompomtom at 10:09 PM on April 9, 2011
Not even in the local, descriptive, sense mate...
posted by pompomtom at 10:09 PM on April 9, 2011
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This guy is a complete fucking shit. He really, really is.
And I feel sorry for him, because our government has been so terrible. I mean what the fuck.
posted by paisley henosis at 5:38 AM on April 8, 2011 [9 favorites]