In Defense of Bad Sex
January 29, 2016 10:46 AM Subscribe
"It’s like parenting or establishing friendships, or pretty much any other intimate, cooperative endeavor: It takes attention and recalibration to be done well even when you’ve made a particularly felicitous match." Sex can be unpleasant, awkward, or even upsetting - and that's okay. In Defense of Bad Sex.
PIVOT!
posted by wabbittwax at 10:51 AM on January 29, 2016 [42 favorites]
posted by wabbittwax at 10:51 AM on January 29, 2016 [42 favorites]
> Our culture operates on that ludicrous adage comparing sex to pizza: “Even when it’s bad, it’s still pretty good.”
Oh no. No, no, no. I have had both sex and pizza that I would have been better off without (although more of the latter than the former).
The whole "sex is *always* good for men" misconception is part of the reason I was so confused when I lost my virginity (a bit later than the average person), to a girl I subsequently dated for about a year; I had been conditioned to believe that sex would just be, like, super-awesome without either of us having to put much thought into it; we were young and attracted to each other and nature would just take its course, right? Well, no, not necessarily, and it when it wasn't I assumed something was wrong with me or her or both of us and got frustrated and impatient, neither of which were conducive to having good sex.
posted by The Card Cheat at 11:02 AM on January 29, 2016 [28 favorites]
Oh no. No, no, no. I have had both sex and pizza that I would have been better off without (although more of the latter than the former).
The whole "sex is *always* good for men" misconception is part of the reason I was so confused when I lost my virginity (a bit later than the average person), to a girl I subsequently dated for about a year; I had been conditioned to believe that sex would just be, like, super-awesome without either of us having to put much thought into it; we were young and attracted to each other and nature would just take its course, right? Well, no, not necessarily, and it when it wasn't I assumed something was wrong with me or her or both of us and got frustrated and impatient, neither of which were conducive to having good sex.
posted by The Card Cheat at 11:02 AM on January 29, 2016 [28 favorites]
Well, yeah. There's
1. Thoughtless bad ("I'm getting what I need so whatever")
2. Thoughtful bad ("this isn't working right, let's practice until it sings")
Number 1 is what I hear people complaining about, e.g. Jackhammer syndrome in many cases. Number 2 is fun, and also good, and I recommend it.
posted by selfnoise at 11:02 AM on January 29, 2016 [15 favorites]
1. Thoughtless bad ("I'm getting what I need so whatever")
2. Thoughtful bad ("this isn't working right, let's practice until it sings")
Number 1 is what I hear people complaining about, e.g. Jackhammer syndrome in many cases. Number 2 is fun, and also good, and I recommend it.
posted by selfnoise at 11:02 AM on January 29, 2016 [15 favorites]
A related myth that I would love to see die is the thing where people assume that sex in a LTR is a barometer for the health of the relationship, and that goes through a single life cycle — it grows, it blooms, it fades, maybe eventually it dies, and once it's dead you're through having good sex or an exciting relationship with that person forever.
Like, look. Sometimes sex gets bad because your relationship is fucked. Sometimes sex gets bad because you're working through some difficult shit, or because your partner is — and that is exactly the wrong moment to have this pernicious cultural myth telling you "Welp, I guess y'all's relationship is dead now." FUCK THAT. A relationship where one partner or the other feels safe enough to work through difficult shit is a THRIVING RELATIONSHIP, and the fact that you're having bad sex or awkward sex or no sex for a while doesn't necessarily have to invalidate that.
posted by nebulawindphone at 11:07 AM on January 29, 2016 [109 favorites]
Like, look. Sometimes sex gets bad because your relationship is fucked. Sometimes sex gets bad because you're working through some difficult shit, or because your partner is — and that is exactly the wrong moment to have this pernicious cultural myth telling you "Welp, I guess y'all's relationship is dead now." FUCK THAT. A relationship where one partner or the other feels safe enough to work through difficult shit is a THRIVING RELATIONSHIP, and the fact that you're having bad sex or awkward sex or no sex for a while doesn't necessarily have to invalidate that.
posted by nebulawindphone at 11:07 AM on January 29, 2016 [109 favorites]
(Which I think fits in with selfnoise's comment about thoughtful-bad versus thoughtless-bad, in that my experience is that usually genuine "I'm working on some shit and this is weird but we'll get our groove back someday" sex is usually thoughtful-bad. But also, sometimes it's genuinely hard to tell. I don't know. Holy shit, guys, people are complicated.)
posted by nebulawindphone at 11:14 AM on January 29, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by nebulawindphone at 11:14 AM on January 29, 2016 [1 favorite]
i was watching a camgirl just chatting with her room the other day and she got on the topic of bad sex and the guys in the room automatically went to "oh his dick was small" or "oh it must have been over in 60 seconds" and she was all like, "....nooooooo, that's actually best case scenario if the sex isn't great" and they just couldn't conceptualize it - to them, if they brought big hard dicks and fucked for hours then it was good sex for women. one of the things she tried to explain was that something she personally doesn't like is when a man delays his orgasm for a long long time and keeps going back to performing oral sex on her when she's not responding favorably to it. and even then the guys were all "so you don't like when your guy tries to please you?" the idea that women have actual preferences about sex and that they're actually invested in having fun during sex was just a foreign concept to them.
i've been thinking about that, along with the, "guys like all sex, any time, always love blowjobs, want to orgasm and have a sandwich" sort of trope and think about how sad i am for the people who really buy into all of this. sex can be such an amazing range of things but huge swaths of us just put it in this tiny little box and allow no deviation.
posted by nadawi at 11:18 AM on January 29, 2016 [47 favorites]
i've been thinking about that, along with the, "guys like all sex, any time, always love blowjobs, want to orgasm and have a sandwich" sort of trope and think about how sad i am for the people who really buy into all of this. sex can be such an amazing range of things but huge swaths of us just put it in this tiny little box and allow no deviation.
posted by nadawi at 11:18 AM on January 29, 2016 [47 favorites]
Oh the irony of being older: Your body gets flabby and yet you finally start having World-Cup level sex.
The irony of being young: You got those awesome sculpted abs and tight bodies. But dear me do you not know how to lay properly.
A related myth that I would love to see die is the thing where people assume that sex in a LTR is a barometer for the health of the relationship...
It has been my experience that is absolutely not a myth.
posted by innocentsabored at 11:18 AM on January 29, 2016 [9 favorites]
The irony of being young: You got those awesome sculpted abs and tight bodies. But dear me do you not know how to lay properly.
A related myth that I would love to see die is the thing where people assume that sex in a LTR is a barometer for the health of the relationship...
It has been my experience that is absolutely not a myth.
posted by innocentsabored at 11:18 AM on January 29, 2016 [9 favorites]
A related myth that I would love to see die is the thing where people assume that sex in a LTR is a barometer for the health of the relationship, and that goes through a single life cycle — it grows, it blooms, it fades, maybe eventually it dies, and once it's dead you're through having good sex or an exciting relationship with that person forever.
This. Also nothing puts a damper on you like stress, not enough sleep, an undiagnosed illness, depression, etc. etc., which can have cycles too.
posted by emjaybee at 11:21 AM on January 29, 2016 [13 favorites]
This. Also nothing puts a damper on you like stress, not enough sleep, an undiagnosed illness, depression, etc. etc., which can have cycles too.
posted by emjaybee at 11:21 AM on January 29, 2016 [13 favorites]
I've never had the wrong kind, ever. My worst one was right on the money.
posted by Capt. Renault at 11:22 AM on January 29, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by Capt. Renault at 11:22 AM on January 29, 2016 [3 favorites]
Sex is like pizza. When it's good, it's really, really good. When it's bad? It's still pretty good.
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 11:24 AM on January 29, 2016
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 11:24 AM on January 29, 2016
Sex is like pizza. When it's good, it's really, really good. When it's bad? It's still pretty good.
I can only assume people who say this have not had much of either.
posted by bondcliff at 11:27 AM on January 29, 2016 [34 favorites]
I can only assume people who say this have not had much of either.
posted by bondcliff at 11:27 AM on January 29, 2016 [34 favorites]
bad pizza is gross, I don't understand how you could think otherwise.
posted by the bricabrac man at 11:28 AM on January 29, 2016 [24 favorites]
posted by the bricabrac man at 11:28 AM on January 29, 2016 [24 favorites]
I once had pizza so bad that I still remember it years later.
posted by selfnoise at 11:29 AM on January 29, 2016 [35 favorites]
posted by selfnoise at 11:29 AM on January 29, 2016 [35 favorites]
It is very frustrating, speaking as a cis het female, that most men really do think that penetrative sex is pretty much the apex of Woman Having Orgasms. I know that y'all think that foreplay is an afterthought (well, a beforethought, really), but no, if I'm asking you to keep doing that because it feels super fucking nice, then continue doing it.
posted by Kitteh at 11:30 AM on January 29, 2016 [11 favorites]
posted by Kitteh at 11:30 AM on January 29, 2016 [11 favorites]
If I had to choose between only sex or only pizza for the rest of my life, I wouldn't even pause before asking for more pizza.
posted by dogwalker at 11:31 AM on January 29, 2016 [18 favorites]
posted by dogwalker at 11:31 AM on January 29, 2016 [18 favorites]
Are we going to derail into an argument about New York sex vs Chicago sex now
posted by prize bull octorok at 11:32 AM on January 29, 2016 [107 favorites]
posted by prize bull octorok at 11:32 AM on January 29, 2016 [107 favorites]
Sex is like pizza. When it's good, it's great, but don't go ordering it on the West Coast; those people are monsters.
Wait, that isn't right.
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 11:33 AM on January 29, 2016 [30 favorites]
Wait, that isn't right.
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 11:33 AM on January 29, 2016 [30 favorites]
right, Kitteh?? it's also about just listening to your partner, which flies over the heads of many. i have orgasms during penetrative sex. i've had men tell me that a) i don't know what orgasms are because that's not possible and b) i have too many orgasms in a sitting (either indicating that i'm faking or that i'm "too excited"). it took me a good year with my husband to just open up and express my orgasms while i was having them because i got the message that i should keep them to myself from previous partners.
posted by nadawi at 11:34 AM on January 29, 2016 [7 favorites]
posted by nadawi at 11:34 AM on January 29, 2016 [7 favorites]
Look it's perfectly okay to want sex with arugula and goat cheese
posted by prize bull octorok at 11:34 AM on January 29, 2016 [22 favorites]
posted by prize bull octorok at 11:34 AM on January 29, 2016 [22 favorites]
Or, uh, read the article which already riffs on this a bit?Sex is like pizza. When it's good, it's really, really good. When it's bad? It's still pretty good.I can only assume people who say this have not had much of either.
posted by nebulawindphone at 11:37 AM on January 29, 2016 [8 favorites]
i have orgasms during penetrative sex. i've had men tell me that a) i don't know what orgasms are because that's not possible
AND THE MANSPLAINING LIFETIME ACHIEVEMENT AWARD GOES TO
posted by sunset in snow country at 11:38 AM on January 29, 2016 [72 favorites]
AND THE MANSPLAINING LIFETIME ACHIEVEMENT AWARD GOES TO
posted by sunset in snow country at 11:38 AM on January 29, 2016 [72 favorites]
Sex is kind of like pizza... when it's good it's really good, and when it's bad you still feel driven to keep going even though it's all greasy and soggy and smells unpleasant and...
Wait, I'll come in again.
posted by Mayor West at 11:39 AM on January 29, 2016 [16 favorites]
Wait, I'll come in again.
posted by Mayor West at 11:39 AM on January 29, 2016 [16 favorites]
Acquiescing to underwhelming sex is not necessarily more damaging than eating an unsatisfying meal, and if my suggesting as much fires up your anger, see if you still feel as outraged when you imagine the gender roles reversed.
Oh yeah, totally. Because eating is the same thing as sexual intimacy, and both genders have a history of oppression that includes their disregard for sexual satisfaction.
/sarcasm
I don't understand the article, but it may be the (poorly chosen) title. The author doesn't seem to defend bad sex, as much as say that good sex isn't something we're allowed to demand. Which, when talking about the lived history of women demanding satisfying sex, its vastly different than the lived history of men demanding satisfying sex.
posted by FirstMateKate at 11:40 AM on January 29, 2016 [4 favorites]
Oh yeah, totally. Because eating is the same thing as sexual intimacy, and both genders have a history of oppression that includes their disregard for sexual satisfaction.
/sarcasm
I don't understand the article, but it may be the (poorly chosen) title. The author doesn't seem to defend bad sex, as much as say that good sex isn't something we're allowed to demand. Which, when talking about the lived history of women demanding satisfying sex, its vastly different than the lived history of men demanding satisfying sex.
posted by FirstMateKate at 11:40 AM on January 29, 2016 [4 favorites]
I think the fact that my parents were pretty much hands-off when it came to my sex education (they told me the facts, but they did so by thrusting books at me and nervously asking if I had any followup questions, and then sighing with relief when I said "nope") meant that I never picked up any of the social conditioning around sex.
And that means that I never got saddled with the notions that this article is trying to dispell. I have absolutely no problem about speaking up about what I want, and being frank about what I dont' want, and my attitude is that if the guy thinks that's weird of me then that's his problem, because it sure ain't mine because I'm wired to like what I like that that's just that. And when it comes to being a good couple that has an off night, their advice about how to solve that by "talk it out and try again later", to me, that advice is like, "well, duh."
I realize that I am profoundly lucky in this regard, though, and I am thanking Aphrodite.
Oh the irony of being older: Your body gets flabby and yet you finally start having World-Cup level sex.
I actually never minded a little flab. Or - more accurately, I would always respond to the gut-level chemical instinct first, and then once I do have sex with a particular guy for the first time it's like I'm a baby duck that imprints on something, and whatever physical characteristics the guy has are teh hotness for me. I have, in my time, been into:
* blond stocky guys
* thin black-haired guys
* super-skinny guys with braces
* guys with shaved heads and abs that could cut glass
* guys with bald patches and long hair down to the middle of their backs
* thin guys with port-wine stains on their hip
* guys with super-crazy hair and "the build of a mexican wrestler"
* tall guys with perfect teeth
* short guys with super-cropped hair
It ain't always about the physical.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 11:44 AM on January 29, 2016 [9 favorites]
And that means that I never got saddled with the notions that this article is trying to dispell. I have absolutely no problem about speaking up about what I want, and being frank about what I dont' want, and my attitude is that if the guy thinks that's weird of me then that's his problem, because it sure ain't mine because I'm wired to like what I like that that's just that. And when it comes to being a good couple that has an off night, their advice about how to solve that by "talk it out and try again later", to me, that advice is like, "well, duh."
I realize that I am profoundly lucky in this regard, though, and I am thanking Aphrodite.
Oh the irony of being older: Your body gets flabby and yet you finally start having World-Cup level sex.
I actually never minded a little flab. Or - more accurately, I would always respond to the gut-level chemical instinct first, and then once I do have sex with a particular guy for the first time it's like I'm a baby duck that imprints on something, and whatever physical characteristics the guy has are teh hotness for me. I have, in my time, been into:
* blond stocky guys
* thin black-haired guys
* super-skinny guys with braces
* guys with shaved heads and abs that could cut glass
* guys with bald patches and long hair down to the middle of their backs
* thin guys with port-wine stains on their hip
* guys with super-crazy hair and "the build of a mexican wrestler"
* tall guys with perfect teeth
* short guys with super-cropped hair
It ain't always about the physical.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 11:44 AM on January 29, 2016 [9 favorites]
Also you people trying to tell me you've never had terrible pizza obviously didn't go to college in a one-horse town whose single pizza restaurant held the entire student body in its thrall.
posted by Mayor West at 11:44 AM on January 29, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by Mayor West at 11:44 AM on January 29, 2016 [3 favorites]
possibly my favorite palindrome: "sex, even if fine, vexes"
posted by bruceo at 11:47 AM on January 29, 2016 [34 favorites]
posted by bruceo at 11:47 AM on January 29, 2016 [34 favorites]
Sex is like pizza: best when there's not too much crust...oh wait.
posted by the_blizz at 11:47 AM on January 29, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by the_blizz at 11:47 AM on January 29, 2016 [2 favorites]
Mod note: "Sex is like pizza" is like a porn flick about a train crash: it's a fucking derail.
posted by cortex (staff) at 11:49 AM on January 29, 2016 [115 favorites]
posted by cortex (staff) at 11:49 AM on January 29, 2016 [115 favorites]
The author doesn't seem to defend bad sex, as much as say that good sex isn't something we're allowed to demand
So I took it less as "You can't demand good sex" (which, yes, I agree, fuck that) and more as "Okay, but there are also valid reasons why bad sex is an okay thing for you to have sometimes, and you don't need to turn in your feminist card if the sex you're having is still sometimes awkward or weird or frustrating."
posted by nebulawindphone at 11:49 AM on January 29, 2016 [9 favorites]
So I took it less as "You can't demand good sex" (which, yes, I agree, fuck that) and more as "Okay, but there are also valid reasons why bad sex is an okay thing for you to have sometimes, and you don't need to turn in your feminist card if the sex you're having is still sometimes awkward or weird or frustrating."
posted by nebulawindphone at 11:49 AM on January 29, 2016 [9 favorites]
> I once had pizza so bad that I still remember it years later.
Oh, you've been to Australia, too?
posted by The Card Cheat at 11:51 AM on January 29, 2016 [6 favorites]
Oh, you've been to Australia, too?
posted by The Card Cheat at 11:51 AM on January 29, 2016 [6 favorites]
It ain't always about the physical.
Although you did just give a lengthy list of mostly visual or physical characteristics.
So it seems to be a about, at the very least, a variety of the physical.
posted by innocentsabored at 11:51 AM on January 29, 2016 [1 favorite]
Although you did just give a lengthy list of mostly visual or physical characteristics.
So it seems to be a about, at the very least, a variety of the physical.
posted by innocentsabored at 11:51 AM on January 29, 2016 [1 favorite]
The author doesn't seem to defend bad sex, as much as say that good sex isn't something we're allowed to demand. Which, when talking about the lived history of women demanding satisfying sex, its vastly different than the lived history of men demanding satisfying sex.
I dunno, I think she's trying to say that women should take more initiative in speaking up when they're having bad sex, and bad sex is most likely inevitable (due to unfamiliarity, etc. etc.) but that doesn't mean it can't be fixed and bad sex doesn't necessarily mean failure?
I didn't really 'get' the article either, I think for that exact same reason. I feel like it was kind of all over the place.
posted by suddenly, and without warning, at 11:52 AM on January 29, 2016 [2 favorites]
I dunno, I think she's trying to say that women should take more initiative in speaking up when they're having bad sex, and bad sex is most likely inevitable (due to unfamiliarity, etc. etc.) but that doesn't mean it can't be fixed and bad sex doesn't necessarily mean failure?
I didn't really 'get' the article either, I think for that exact same reason. I feel like it was kind of all over the place.
posted by suddenly, and without warning, at 11:52 AM on January 29, 2016 [2 favorites]
"Okay, but there are also valid reasons why bad sex is an okay thing for you to have sometimes, and you don't need to turn in your feminist card if the sex you're having is still sometimes awkward or weird or frustrating."
...which, like, admittedly is a super-fraught message, because "You are allowed to choose to settle for something unsatisfying (and that's genuinely up to you and your choices are valid)" can easily turn into a weird sort of coercive "HEY! HEY! WHY ARE YOU STANDING UP FOR YOURSELF?! DON'T YOU KNOW YOU'RE ALLOWED TO SETTLE FOR SOMETHING UNSATISFYING?!" — especially when the audience is people who area already under pressure to ignore their own satisfaction. It's the usual messiness around "choice" feminism, I guess, plus extra bonus messiness for how complicated sex is anyway.
posted by nebulawindphone at 11:52 AM on January 29, 2016 [9 favorites]
...which, like, admittedly is a super-fraught message, because "You are allowed to choose to settle for something unsatisfying (and that's genuinely up to you and your choices are valid)" can easily turn into a weird sort of coercive "HEY! HEY! WHY ARE YOU STANDING UP FOR YOURSELF?! DON'T YOU KNOW YOU'RE ALLOWED TO SETTLE FOR SOMETHING UNSATISFYING?!" — especially when the audience is people who area already under pressure to ignore their own satisfaction. It's the usual messiness around "choice" feminism, I guess, plus extra bonus messiness for how complicated sex is anyway.
posted by nebulawindphone at 11:52 AM on January 29, 2016 [9 favorites]
I think it also comes down to being able and comfortable to tell your partner what you want them to do and really, as women, we aren't conditioned to do that. Hence: most dudes thinking that penetrative sex is what gets women off (I suppose oral sex too, but only if we reciprocate) and Here Endeth the Sexy Times. I find as I get older orgasms from penetrative sex are fewer and far between so I would like to explore other options, plz.
posted by Kitteh at 11:53 AM on January 29, 2016
posted by Kitteh at 11:53 AM on January 29, 2016
for anyone that missed it, this is an article by charlotte shane - her voice and point of view make a lot more sense if you're already familiar with her work
posted by nadawi at 11:55 AM on January 29, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by nadawi at 11:55 AM on January 29, 2016 [1 favorite]
Although you did just give a lengthy list of mostly visual or physical characteristics.
So it seems to be a about, at the very least, a variety of the physical.
Allow me to rephrase, then -
Sexual attraction isn't always about physical bodies meeting an empiric set list of qualifications.
However, sex can be all about exploring the myriad wonderful ways in which a specific body can be shaped, formed, colored, and textured, as well as how that body can be stimulated, teased, stroked, caressed, fondled....
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 11:56 AM on January 29, 2016 [9 favorites]
So it seems to be a about, at the very least, a variety of the physical.
Allow me to rephrase, then -
Sexual attraction isn't always about physical bodies meeting an empiric set list of qualifications.
However, sex can be all about exploring the myriad wonderful ways in which a specific body can be shaped, formed, colored, and textured, as well as how that body can be stimulated, teased, stroked, caressed, fondled....
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 11:56 AM on January 29, 2016 [9 favorites]
I should probably explain that I've been reading a lot of Anais Nin over the past couple days
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 11:56 AM on January 29, 2016 [6 favorites]
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 11:56 AM on January 29, 2016 [6 favorites]
Although you did just give a lengthy list of mostly visual or physical characteristics.
So it seems to be a about, at the very least, a variety of the physical.
Her point, you have missed it.
posted by emjaybee at 11:57 AM on January 29, 2016 [6 favorites]
So it seems to be a about, at the very least, a variety of the physical.
Her point, you have missed it.
posted by emjaybee at 11:57 AM on January 29, 2016 [6 favorites]
if I'm asking you to keep doing that because it feels super fucking nice, then continue doing it.
or the delightful opposite scenario in which the word "OUCH!" clearly means "that thing you just did? do NOTHING ELSE BUT THAT, forever"
posted by poffin boffin at 11:58 AM on January 29, 2016 [14 favorites]
or the delightful opposite scenario in which the word "OUCH!" clearly means "that thing you just did? do NOTHING ELSE BUT THAT, forever"
posted by poffin boffin at 11:58 AM on January 29, 2016 [14 favorites]
It's definitely all over the place but I'm quite certain the point isn't about what you're allowed to ask for at all but just that shit is going to be subpar some times inevitably because good sex requires work and a confluence of other factors.
posted by atoxyl at 11:58 AM on January 29, 2016
posted by atoxyl at 11:58 AM on January 29, 2016
you don't need to turn in your feminist card if the sex you're having is still sometimes awkward or weird or frustrating
I feel like generally women have more experience with bad sex, both because of external factors (heh heh that means two things) but also just because sometimes it's not happening for us, for whatever bizarro reason. So, I don't know. I feel like a lot of women come to terms with occasionally having sex and then going, ". . . meh", without it being about anything else.
Bodies are weird and stuff.
posted by chainsofreedom at 12:01 PM on January 29, 2016 [4 favorites]
I feel like generally women have more experience with bad sex, both because of external factors (heh heh that means two things) but also just because sometimes it's not happening for us, for whatever bizarro reason. So, I don't know. I feel like a lot of women come to terms with occasionally having sex and then going, ". . . meh", without it being about anything else.
Bodies are weird and stuff.
posted by chainsofreedom at 12:01 PM on January 29, 2016 [4 favorites]
All I know is, if I invite you to spend the night, that is not an invitation to grapple onto me like a goddamn octopus geez MOVE OVER
posted by Automocar at 12:05 PM on January 29, 2016
posted by Automocar at 12:05 PM on January 29, 2016
I can't believe you fucking people.
posted by srboisvert at 12:06 PM on January 29, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by srboisvert at 12:06 PM on January 29, 2016 [3 favorites]
i think the type of feminist space that charlotte shane engages in most is very #DumpHim-centric (a super fun space that i love a lot most of the time). in that space, a post about how mediocre sex can be ok without it being a big feminist deal makes a lot of sense. this same idea expressed to devoutly religious women who got married at 18 and are never given the language to ask for more fulfilling sex would not be accepted in the same way. so i think on the whole, yes, women the world over are pretty well acquainted with accepting bad sex in one way or another, but to the audience she appeals most to, i think there's a lot of valuable stuff in this piece.
posted by nadawi at 12:09 PM on January 29, 2016 [9 favorites]
posted by nadawi at 12:09 PM on January 29, 2016 [9 favorites]
I agree that the point is "it's okay to...", not "you must (not)..." - and maybe the meta-problem is with those two things always becoming conflated somehow, especially wrt women and sex.
Personally, I feel like I managed to escape a lot of the body- and sex-shaming that sex-positive feminism developed as a response to, but I have felt pressured to have good sex - partly for the "symbolic win/sense of political achievement" she talks about in the article and partly because, as nebulawindphone points out, it's supposed to mean your relationship is failing if you don't. I thought the idea that "imperfect sex is not inherently traumatizing," and debunking "the idea that women are corroded and destroyed by less-than-ideal sexual encounters," was interesting - it certainly doesn't apply to all cases, because as folks rightly point out here, these things are vastly differently weighted for men and women. But for me personally, I have felt kind of... I don't know, "less than," or like a failure or something, because I'm not having all great empowering sex all the time and that's something that's so emphasized in the particular culture where I reside. And really, phrasing it as a "symbolic win" or a "sense of political achievement" was enlightening to me. There's already been the whole discussion of how "sex-positive feminism" (and "free love" before it) is co-opted by men in service of their own sexual pleasure, and I feel confident that I'm not catering to men with my commitment to having a good sex life, but I did, definitely, absorb the idea that this is something that I owe to myself, that a month or a year on end of lame sex means I'm failing myself.
I hope this makes sense. I did feel like the article was a bit rambling, but there was enough there that I wanted to post it and see what a bunch of smart people would have to say about it, and you all did not disappoint! (Bonus points for the pizza jokes.) I do feel like now, approaching my thirties and with much of the relationship and career and general adult-life chaos surmounted, sex is something I want to focus on, and I think this approach will help me be gentle with myself as I do that.
(Also, I was not familiar with Charlotte Shane before I posted this, but now I want to read all the things)
posted by sunset in snow country at 12:14 PM on January 29, 2016 [10 favorites]
Personally, I feel like I managed to escape a lot of the body- and sex-shaming that sex-positive feminism developed as a response to, but I have felt pressured to have good sex - partly for the "symbolic win/sense of political achievement" she talks about in the article and partly because, as nebulawindphone points out, it's supposed to mean your relationship is failing if you don't. I thought the idea that "imperfect sex is not inherently traumatizing," and debunking "the idea that women are corroded and destroyed by less-than-ideal sexual encounters," was interesting - it certainly doesn't apply to all cases, because as folks rightly point out here, these things are vastly differently weighted for men and women. But for me personally, I have felt kind of... I don't know, "less than," or like a failure or something, because I'm not having all great empowering sex all the time and that's something that's so emphasized in the particular culture where I reside. And really, phrasing it as a "symbolic win" or a "sense of political achievement" was enlightening to me. There's already been the whole discussion of how "sex-positive feminism" (and "free love" before it) is co-opted by men in service of their own sexual pleasure, and I feel confident that I'm not catering to men with my commitment to having a good sex life, but I did, definitely, absorb the idea that this is something that I owe to myself, that a month or a year on end of lame sex means I'm failing myself.
I hope this makes sense. I did feel like the article was a bit rambling, but there was enough there that I wanted to post it and see what a bunch of smart people would have to say about it, and you all did not disappoint! (Bonus points for the pizza jokes.) I do feel like now, approaching my thirties and with much of the relationship and career and general adult-life chaos surmounted, sex is something I want to focus on, and I think this approach will help me be gentle with myself as I do that.
(Also, I was not familiar with Charlotte Shane before I posted this, but now I want to read all the things)
posted by sunset in snow country at 12:14 PM on January 29, 2016 [10 favorites]
i think the type of feminist space that charlotte shane engages in most is very #DumpHim-centric (a super fun space that i love a lot most of the time). in that space, a post about how mediocre sex can be ok without it being a big feminist deal makes a lot of sense.
Agreed. Being someone who travels in similar spaces (re: #DumpHim) and with friends who put an extremely high premium on sex--much higher than I do--that pressure to Demand Satisfaction at all costs can feel very real and weird. The expectation for 100% of sex to be mind-blowing is not actually that helpful, on the ground.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 12:19 PM on January 29, 2016 [9 favorites]
Agreed. Being someone who travels in similar spaces (re: #DumpHim) and with friends who put an extremely high premium on sex--much higher than I do--that pressure to Demand Satisfaction at all costs can feel very real and weird. The expectation for 100% of sex to be mind-blowing is not actually that helpful, on the ground.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 12:19 PM on January 29, 2016 [9 favorites]
(charlotte shane is great and i love her and her tinyletter is fantastic and if you can get the book of her last tinyletter that is also fantastic)
posted by nadawi at 12:19 PM on January 29, 2016
posted by nadawi at 12:19 PM on January 29, 2016
Okie saying,
"The worst I ever had, was wonderful."
(courtesy of my Dad, RIP.)
posted by Oyéah at 12:26 PM on January 29, 2016
"The worst I ever had, was wonderful."
(courtesy of my Dad, RIP.)
posted by Oyéah at 12:26 PM on January 29, 2016
(In case I am not crystal clear in my previous post: it's not the "Demand Satisfaction" part of the formula I take issue with--it's the "at all costs.")
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 12:26 PM on January 29, 2016
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 12:26 PM on January 29, 2016
"if I'm asking you to keep doing that because it feels super fucking nice, then continue doing it."
On the other hand, how bout the scenario when guys translate your saying "That feels good" into your saying "Please do nothing but this until I finally want to run away screaming, except that I don't because I keep thinking you must be about to stop by now. But. You. Don't."
I think that sex is the hardest time for people to speak up, because they just don't want to disappoint the other. If you find yourself physically bracing yourself for sex, you are putting up with way too much.
posted by serena15221 at 12:30 PM on January 29, 2016 [3 favorites]
On the other hand, how bout the scenario when guys translate your saying "That feels good" into your saying "Please do nothing but this until I finally want to run away screaming, except that I don't because I keep thinking you must be about to stop by now. But. You. Don't."
I think that sex is the hardest time for people to speak up, because they just don't want to disappoint the other. If you find yourself physically bracing yourself for sex, you are putting up with way too much.
posted by serena15221 at 12:30 PM on January 29, 2016 [3 favorites]
one of the things she tried to explain was that something she personally doesn't like is when a man delays his orgasm for a long long time and keeps going back to performing oral sex on her when she's not responding favorably to it.
I know this isn't actually the exact scenario you're talking about but it reminds me of a previous comment I made about sex being complicated. Even when all parties are trying really hard there are failure states, like "two people practically fighting to go down on the other when it's not actually what either one of them really wants." I think the right spot between not caring whether your partner comes and caring too much is one a lot of people have difficulty finding.
posted by atoxyl at 12:36 PM on January 29, 2016 [4 favorites]
I know this isn't actually the exact scenario you're talking about but it reminds me of a previous comment I made about sex being complicated. Even when all parties are trying really hard there are failure states, like "two people practically fighting to go down on the other when it's not actually what either one of them really wants." I think the right spot between not caring whether your partner comes and caring too much is one a lot of people have difficulty finding.
posted by atoxyl at 12:36 PM on January 29, 2016 [4 favorites]
selfnoise: I once had pizza so bad that I still remember it years later.
A sliced hot dog and catsup on a frozen crust. Somewhere near Harmony, Indiana.
nebulawindphone: A relationship where one partner or the other feels safe enough to work through difficult shit is a THRIVING RELATIONSHIP, and the fact that you're having bad sex or awkward sex or no sex for a while doesn't necessarily have to invalidate that.
Crazy person talk here. One dumb thing about being crazy is that not only are we crazy for being crazy but we're crazy again if our relationship choices do not involve chasing a magic number of orgasms a week. Which means that I have to go through conversations with every therapist that yes, celibacy is reasonably comfortable compared to the alternatives often taken by middle-aged bi people: polyamory, the down low, gaslighting a partner's changing sexuality, or breaking up a wonderful relationship.
That Amazon can practically ship toe-curling orgasms in a box or file with minimal risk of disassociation, panic attacks, feeling frustrated at intimacy walls or crazy, other people's internalized homophobia and biphobia, or, gods forbid, being sexual assaulted appranetly doesn't count for that magic number.
posted by CBrachyrhynchos at 12:40 PM on January 29, 2016 [9 favorites]
A sliced hot dog and catsup on a frozen crust. Somewhere near Harmony, Indiana.
nebulawindphone: A relationship where one partner or the other feels safe enough to work through difficult shit is a THRIVING RELATIONSHIP, and the fact that you're having bad sex or awkward sex or no sex for a while doesn't necessarily have to invalidate that.
Crazy person talk here. One dumb thing about being crazy is that not only are we crazy for being crazy but we're crazy again if our relationship choices do not involve chasing a magic number of orgasms a week. Which means that I have to go through conversations with every therapist that yes, celibacy is reasonably comfortable compared to the alternatives often taken by middle-aged bi people: polyamory, the down low, gaslighting a partner's changing sexuality, or breaking up a wonderful relationship.
That Amazon can practically ship toe-curling orgasms in a box or file with minimal risk of disassociation, panic attacks, feeling frustrated at intimacy walls or crazy, other people's internalized homophobia and biphobia, or, gods forbid, being sexual assaulted appranetly doesn't count for that magic number.
posted by CBrachyrhynchos at 12:40 PM on January 29, 2016 [9 favorites]
thanks for the context guys. that definitely changes things.
posted by suddenly, and without warning, at 12:53 PM on January 29, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by suddenly, and without warning, at 12:53 PM on January 29, 2016 [1 favorite]
My sexual satisfaction and relationship dynamics improved when I started seeing sex more like exercise. It takes work and practice, and sometimes it's best to power through even when I'm not feeling it. Over time, it becomes more natural and more satisfying.
Along the way, some of the sex thus had feels perfunctory and uninspired. I wouldn't say it's "bad," in that it isn't actively unpleasant. In fact, even perfunctory sex seems to generate the same relationship afterglow, which is where the real money is for me.
posted by andrewpcone at 12:54 PM on January 29, 2016 [5 favorites]
Along the way, some of the sex thus had feels perfunctory and uninspired. I wouldn't say it's "bad," in that it isn't actively unpleasant. In fact, even perfunctory sex seems to generate the same relationship afterglow, which is where the real money is for me.
posted by andrewpcone at 12:54 PM on January 29, 2016 [5 favorites]
I'm either really horny or craving pizza for dinner; I can't tell which.
posted by TedW at 1:02 PM on January 29, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by TedW at 1:02 PM on January 29, 2016 [2 favorites]
Difficult, accidental elbows in the face, playful sex that falls apart in laughter before restarting is an essential part of bonding with a new partner for some folks. For me it's when you care about what you both actually want— it's totally possible with play partners and serious partners.
Look it's perfectly okay to want sex with arugula and goat cheese
and PEARS! Wait, is this the California Sex Kitchen?
posted by a halcyon day at 1:02 PM on January 29, 2016
Look it's perfectly okay to want sex with arugula and goat cheese
and PEARS! Wait, is this the California Sex Kitchen?
posted by a halcyon day at 1:02 PM on January 29, 2016
This is a case where RTFA is advised; it's focused on women having bad sex with men and the feminist implications thereof, in the context of a wider conversation about women and sex; it's not just about "bad sex" in general.
posted by thetortoise at 1:06 PM on January 29, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by thetortoise at 1:06 PM on January 29, 2016 [5 favorites]
Sex is like pizza. When it's good, it's really, really good. When it's bad? It's still pretty good
This is definitely very high up in my Extraordinarily Stupid Shit That Gets Said About Sex list, and pretty high up my Stupid Shit That Gets Said About Pizza list. I've never felt like crying after pizza due to difficult and painful communication issues with the pizza delivery guy brought about at least partially through abusive and coercive behaviour the pizza delivery guy experienced from other customers when the pizza delivery guy was a young pizza delivery guy, to choose but one example.
posted by Jon Mitchell at 1:25 PM on January 29, 2016 [25 favorites]
This is definitely very high up in my Extraordinarily Stupid Shit That Gets Said About Sex list, and pretty high up my Stupid Shit That Gets Said About Pizza list. I've never felt like crying after pizza due to difficult and painful communication issues with the pizza delivery guy brought about at least partially through abusive and coercive behaviour the pizza delivery guy experienced from other customers when the pizza delivery guy was a young pizza delivery guy, to choose but one example.
posted by Jon Mitchell at 1:25 PM on January 29, 2016 [25 favorites]
I've had some really dumb and silly sex that wasn't much fun for either of us, no matter how earnest or considerate both of us were, just as I've had some resoundingly awkward conversations and some meals that came highly recommended but tasted weird. And my life partner doesn't listen to me about what I like, because he's an odd duck. I don't much care, honestly, because sex is not particularly important.
posted by Peach at 1:33 PM on January 29, 2016
posted by Peach at 1:33 PM on January 29, 2016
Richard Lewis has a great line about this: "If I wrote a sex manual it would be called "Ow, You're On My Hair."
When it's good, it's great, but don't go ordering it on the West Coast; those people are monsters.
That's okay, we have the best tacos.
posted by Room 641-A at 1:35 PM on January 29, 2016 [1 favorite]
When it's good, it's great, but don't go ordering it on the West Coast; those people are monsters.
That's okay, we have the best tacos.
posted by Room 641-A at 1:35 PM on January 29, 2016 [1 favorite]
This is definitely very high up in my Extraordinarily Stupid Shit That Gets Said About Sex list, and pretty high up my Stupid Shit That Gets Said About Pizza list.
Seriously, now I'm curious, what statements are higher up on the latter list? (I mean besides "No, I actually prefer deep dish.")
posted by The Bellman at 2:22 PM on January 29, 2016
Seriously, now I'm curious, what statements are higher up on the latter list? (I mean besides "No, I actually prefer deep dish.")
posted by The Bellman at 2:22 PM on January 29, 2016
"Pineapple and ham is a perfectly legitimate toppings choice" would have to be #1
posted by phearlez at 2:28 PM on January 29, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by phearlez at 2:28 PM on January 29, 2016 [2 favorites]
Seriously, now I'm curious, what statements are higher up on the latter list?
This is an idiosyncratic and divisive personal opinion, but "Chicago Style Pizza is Pizza" is #1. It's my list, I can believe what I want, Cheese Pie lovers!
posted by Jon Mitchell at 2:31 PM on January 29, 2016
This is an idiosyncratic and divisive personal opinion, but "Chicago Style Pizza is Pizza" is #1. It's my list, I can believe what I want, Cheese Pie lovers!
posted by Jon Mitchell at 2:31 PM on January 29, 2016
It's definitely all over the place
I think that negatively implies disorganized writing but I'd contend it's more a willingness to approach a multi-faceted topic that has a lot of other baggage on it. It covers a lot of ground because it needs to.
Seems to be a hallmark of hers and I'm excited to read more. She has a nice list even divided up into (her assessment of the article's) emotional impact, depending on what you're in the mood for. I think this bit about perception of outing of a sex-worker-hiring person and what it says about people's attitudes about how illegality impacts SW safety is another good example of a willingness to try to thread a complicated needle.
posted by phearlez at 2:34 PM on January 29, 2016 [1 favorite]
I think that negatively implies disorganized writing but I'd contend it's more a willingness to approach a multi-faceted topic that has a lot of other baggage on it. It covers a lot of ground because it needs to.
Seems to be a hallmark of hers and I'm excited to read more. She has a nice list even divided up into (her assessment of the article's) emotional impact, depending on what you're in the mood for. I think this bit about perception of outing of a sex-worker-hiring person and what it says about people's attitudes about how illegality impacts SW safety is another good example of a willingness to try to thread a complicated needle.
posted by phearlez at 2:34 PM on January 29, 2016 [1 favorite]
"Pineapple and ham is a perfectly legitimate toppings choice" would have to be #1 pizza forever.
That's the best pizza.
I'm glad we're in agreement.
posted by curious nu at 4:11 PM on January 29, 2016 [1 favorite]
That's the best pizza.
I'm glad we're in agreement.
posted by curious nu at 4:11 PM on January 29, 2016 [1 favorite]
Worst pizza: Tunis, 1999. Ordered a margherita and was delivered a canned tuna and mayonnaise pizza with black olives (pits still in). Delivered cold, after a rwo-hour wait, so hungry we ate it anyway.
My worst sex was never that disappointing. And I'm including that night with those two hot guys when I'd had way too much to drink - manifesting in at least two, er...unpleasant consequences.
Seriously: tuna mayo and olive-pit pizza I don't even
posted by darkstar at 4:28 PM on January 29, 2016 [2 favorites]
My worst sex was never that disappointing. And I'm including that night with those two hot guys when I'd had way too much to drink - manifesting in at least two, er...unpleasant consequences.
Seriously: tuna mayo and olive-pit pizza I don't even
posted by darkstar at 4:28 PM on January 29, 2016 [2 favorites]
My worst was at the Sbarro's at the Arden Fair Mall in '09. I got grease burns on my hands and mouth. It left stains on my shirt that smelled like rancid garbage for weeks, even after multiple washings. I demanded my money back and staggered outside, where I threw up on the sidewalk.
Now let me tell you about the worst pizza I ever had
posted by prize bull octorok at 5:01 PM on January 29, 2016 [22 favorites]
Now let me tell you about the worst pizza I ever had
posted by prize bull octorok at 5:01 PM on January 29, 2016 [22 favorites]
Extremely bad pizza is now sold at my local 7-11. "One bite and trash it" pizza. "What the hell did I just put in my mouth" pizza. "How can you make dough taste both scorched and stale" pizza. "Tomato sauce stored in an open can in the walk-in for a month" pizza. "Imitation fake cheese-food unidentifiable topping" pizza.
posted by telstar at 5:20 PM on January 29, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by telstar at 5:20 PM on January 29, 2016 [2 favorites]
Sex is like pizza: you can put barbecue sauce on it, but only if you have some sort of plan.
posted by jackbishop at 6:39 PM on January 29, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by jackbishop at 6:39 PM on January 29, 2016 [3 favorites]
Sex is like pizza.
...it's always better the next morning, cold and greasy in a cardboard box.
posted by Mr. Bad Example at 7:06 PM on January 29, 2016
...it's always better the next morning, cold and greasy in a cardboard box.
posted by Mr. Bad Example at 7:06 PM on January 29, 2016
You guys really don't wan't to talk about this, do you?
posted by Freelance Demiurge at 7:15 PM on January 29, 2016 [15 favorites]
posted by Freelance Demiurge at 7:15 PM on January 29, 2016 [15 favorites]
Participants in the pizza derail:
5 explicitly indicate male in their profile
4 have male indicators in their profiles
3 have no indicators of gender or indicate other
1 indicates female
So, it's the male identifying persons that don't want to talk about it, at least in this thread.
And that's all that really needs to be said really. Because the ability of women in cis- het- sexual relations to actually enjoy themselves is so often treated as a joke. Never mind the ability to actually ask for what we want without having to worry about or having to manage our partner's reaction.
posted by susiswimmer at 7:48 PM on January 29, 2016 [8 favorites]
5 explicitly indicate male in their profile
4 have male indicators in their profiles
3 have no indicators of gender or indicate other
1 indicates female
So, it's the male identifying persons that don't want to talk about it, at least in this thread.
And that's all that really needs to be said really. Because the ability of women in cis- het- sexual relations to actually enjoy themselves is so often treated as a joke. Never mind the ability to actually ask for what we want without having to worry about or having to manage our partner's reaction.
posted by susiswimmer at 7:48 PM on January 29, 2016 [8 favorites]
The article is a lot more interesting than the sex/pizza jokes, honestly.
posted by Dip Flash at 7:49 PM on January 29, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by Dip Flash at 7:49 PM on January 29, 2016 [3 favorites]
This pizza derail is like Ferris Bueller all over again. Strange.
I'm to understand it's a Mel Brooks quote. I thought it was funny. Oh well.
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 7:56 PM on January 29, 2016
I'm to understand it's a Mel Brooks quote. I thought it was funny. Oh well.
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 7:56 PM on January 29, 2016
I agree, I really liked the article.
I'd love to be able to live a life where bad sex was an accepted part, in a constructive way. Such as "we're learning each other as partners" or "things ebb and flow and it's OK to have an off day" or "this just isn't a good fit and that's ok too" kinda way. I'd love to able to ask for what I want or have an honest discussion about how things went.
But in my experience that doesn't actually work in practice. And I'm just about getting to the point where I'd rather have someone who isn't actually as interested in how I'm doing than someone who acts like I've crushed a piece of their soul if I don't have fifty orgasms and loudly proclaim that they are The Best Lover Ever! At least with the former I know I'm getting plain old cheese, as advertised on the box.
posted by susiswimmer at 8:05 PM on January 29, 2016 [3 favorites]
I'd love to be able to live a life where bad sex was an accepted part, in a constructive way. Such as "we're learning each other as partners" or "things ebb and flow and it's OK to have an off day" or "this just isn't a good fit and that's ok too" kinda way. I'd love to able to ask for what I want or have an honest discussion about how things went.
But in my experience that doesn't actually work in practice. And I'm just about getting to the point where I'd rather have someone who isn't actually as interested in how I'm doing than someone who acts like I've crushed a piece of their soul if I don't have fifty orgasms and loudly proclaim that they are The Best Lover Ever! At least with the former I know I'm getting plain old cheese, as advertised on the box.
posted by susiswimmer at 8:05 PM on January 29, 2016 [3 favorites]
Cool Papa Bell, not to pick on you but that quote was specifically discussed in the article. So it was a red flag that you hadn't read the article.
posted by selfnoise at 8:06 PM on January 29, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by selfnoise at 8:06 PM on January 29, 2016 [1 favorite]
Not sure if I was counted as a male that doesn't want to talk about it, but, FWIW, gay male here. And half of my comment was reflecting on an (abysmally) bad sex episode that I still don't consider to be a net negative, as far as life experience goes. I think, having read the article, that seems to be the crux of what the author is saying. That, essentially, we should all feel empowered enough to be able to have bad sex, without it somehow being a judgment on us or our relationships. Is that not so?
To be honest, though, I sometimes feel like, being male, I don't seem to have a valid opinion when it comes to assessing or critiquing feminist statements, and as a gay guy, can't even ironically assert patriarchal male privilege. So I sometimes feel it's best to avoid these kind of discussions entirely. Discussing food seems to be much less fraught.
posted by darkstar at 8:09 PM on January 29, 2016 [2 favorites]
To be honest, though, I sometimes feel like, being male, I don't seem to have a valid opinion when it comes to assessing or critiquing feminist statements, and as a gay guy, can't even ironically assert patriarchal male privilege. So I sometimes feel it's best to avoid these kind of discussions entirely. Discussing food seems to be much less fraught.
posted by darkstar at 8:09 PM on January 29, 2016 [2 favorites]
Actually, a small edit to the numbers in my first post:
8 explicitly male
7 w/ male indicators
4 unlisted or indicating non- binary
I also don't think any of those participants had bad intentions at all. I did the list to indicate the overall impact, and that folks that identify as male may have a certain luxury of riffing on something that women in cis- het- relationships no longer think is funny.
posted by susiswimmer at 8:20 PM on January 29, 2016 [2 favorites]
8 explicitly male
7 w/ male indicators
4 unlisted or indicating non- binary
I also don't think any of those participants had bad intentions at all. I did the list to indicate the overall impact, and that folks that identify as male may have a certain luxury of riffing on something that women in cis- het- relationships no longer think is funny.
posted by susiswimmer at 8:20 PM on January 29, 2016 [2 favorites]
I don't think it's funny. I think it's a tragedy.
posted by CBrachyrhynchos at 9:33 PM on January 29, 2016
posted by CBrachyrhynchos at 9:33 PM on January 29, 2016
That's okay, we have the best tacos.
Is that a euphemism or are you still talking about food?
(since someone wants to keep a record: male, did read the original article, and wholeheartedly agree with it)
posted by Snowflake at 9:35 PM on January 29, 2016 [1 favorite]
Is that a euphemism or are you still talking about food?
(since someone wants to keep a record: male, did read the original article, and wholeheartedly agree with it)
posted by Snowflake at 9:35 PM on January 29, 2016 [1 favorite]
Okay, the analysis of "here is the gender breakdown of who perpetuated the pizza derail" is ITSELF starting to feel like a derail.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 10:05 PM on January 29, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 10:05 PM on January 29, 2016 [4 favorites]
I think the fact that my parents were pretty much hands-off when it came to my sex education (they told me the facts, but they did so by thrusting books at me and nervously asking if I had any followup questions, and then sighing with relief when I said "nope") meant that I never picked up any of the social conditioning around sex.l
EC, this is my experience, too, and I can think of a few other factors that helped. Not that I haven't acted against my best interest plenty of times, but I do think I'm quick to recognize when something is actually a problem.
posted by Room 641-A at 11:57 PM on January 29, 2016
EC, this is my experience, too, and I can think of a few other factors that helped. Not that I haven't acted against my best interest plenty of times, but I do think I'm quick to recognize when something is actually a problem.
posted by Room 641-A at 11:57 PM on January 29, 2016
I think the fact that my parents were pretty much hands-off when it came to my sex education (they told me the facts, but they did so by thrusting books at me and nervously asking if I had any followup questions, and then sighing with relief when I said "nope") meant that I never picked up any of the social conditioning around sex.
This is kinda funny to me because my parents were the same way and I do often find it difficult to say what I want, and I've almost wondered if it's related to my family being extremely sheepish about talking about sex. I mean, I have no hangups or lack of clarity in my own head about what I like but I find it hard to speak up to a partner.
posted by atoxyl at 1:38 AM on January 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
This is kinda funny to me because my parents were the same way and I do often find it difficult to say what I want, and I've almost wondered if it's related to my family being extremely sheepish about talking about sex. I mean, I have no hangups or lack of clarity in my own head about what I like but I find it hard to speak up to a partner.
posted by atoxyl at 1:38 AM on January 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
In my case, I mentioned other factors. One of those is being an only child because i wasn't shy about asking for things in general.
posted by Room 641-A at 7:24 AM on January 30, 2016
posted by Room 641-A at 7:24 AM on January 30, 2016
I wrote out some other stuff, but something just occurred to me. For the most part, I've never been a casual sex person. That doesn't mean I expected a serious relationship from all sexual partners, but it does mean that I have almost always had sex with people I knew enough to feel comfortable with and who I trusted. But definitely, in those rare situations i didn't already feel comfortable with someone I didn't bring things up because I didn't want to "ruin the mood" or scare the guy away. I guess I didn't care that much because I knew it wasn't serious, but that would never fly if things got serious with someone.
posted by Room 641-A at 7:49 AM on January 30, 2016
posted by Room 641-A at 7:49 AM on January 30, 2016
A related myth that I would love to see die is the thing where people assume that sex in a LTR is a barometer for the health of the relationship, and that goes through a single life cycle — it grows, it blooms, it fades, maybe eventually it dies, and once it's dead you're through having good sex or an exciting relationship with that person forever.
Indeed, I think a lot of couples are forced to confront this after they have a baby or two - But that's not necessary. I remember when my partner and I had been living together for a while, we had to have a mutual conversation that ran along the lines of "Should we be having more sex? I'm happy with how much we're having, but it seems... lower than what people in their twenties should be having?"
Of course, with two kids 4, and 2 now, I have to laugh, looking back. We were like nymphomaniacs back then, ha ha!
posted by smoke at 5:45 PM on January 30, 2016
Indeed, I think a lot of couples are forced to confront this after they have a baby or two - But that's not necessary. I remember when my partner and I had been living together for a while, we had to have a mutual conversation that ran along the lines of "Should we be having more sex? I'm happy with how much we're having, but it seems... lower than what people in their twenties should be having?"
Of course, with two kids 4, and 2 now, I have to laugh, looking back. We were like nymphomaniacs back then, ha ha!
posted by smoke at 5:45 PM on January 30, 2016
that folks that identify as male may have a certain luxury of riffing on something that women in cis- het- relationships no longer think is funny.
That's true, I'm sorry for my part in contributing to the derail. In my case couching a story about a formative sexual experience in attempted humor made it easier for me to relate, but I'm making a genuine and general effort to shut the hell up and listen, most especially when called on it.
posted by Jon Mitchell at 11:16 AM on January 31, 2016
That's true, I'm sorry for my part in contributing to the derail. In my case couching a story about a formative sexual experience in attempted humor made it easier for me to relate, but I'm making a genuine and general effort to shut the hell up and listen, most especially when called on it.
posted by Jon Mitchell at 11:16 AM on January 31, 2016
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posted by Damienmce at 10:50 AM on January 29, 2016 [15 favorites]