Sneaking, Urgency, Misdirection, Scarcity, Obstruction and more!
February 1, 2021 5:09 AM Subscribe
This is very interesting. Thank you for posting, Stark.
“Confirmshaming” is both a fantastic neologism (at least to me) and a practice that instantly catapults me into an incandescent rage. YES, I ACTUALLY DO WANT TO CLICK THE “NO THANKS, I’D LIKE TO PAY FULL PRICE” OPTION, YOU SNARKY, SANCTIMONIOUS FIENDS. God forbid I actually GIVE YOU MORE MONEY TO BUY YOUR PRODUCT rather than save a buck in exchange for being signed up for your worthless newsletter.
posted by cheapskatebay at 5:32 AM on February 1, 2021 [27 favorites]
“Confirmshaming” is both a fantastic neologism (at least to me) and a practice that instantly catapults me into an incandescent rage. YES, I ACTUALLY DO WANT TO CLICK THE “NO THANKS, I’D LIKE TO PAY FULL PRICE” OPTION, YOU SNARKY, SANCTIMONIOUS FIENDS. God forbid I actually GIVE YOU MORE MONEY TO BUY YOUR PRODUCT rather than save a buck in exchange for being signed up for your worthless newsletter.
posted by cheapskatebay at 5:32 AM on February 1, 2021 [27 favorites]
[Californian and Washington state] Lawmakers take aim at insidious digital “dark patterns”
New laws bar efforts to trick consumers into handing over data or money.
posted by XMLicious at 6:20 AM on February 1, 2021 [1 favorite]
New laws bar efforts to trick consumers into handing over data or money.
posted by XMLicious at 6:20 AM on February 1, 2021 [1 favorite]
Some of those things are really aggravating and some of them seem totally normal?
Other than discounts on specific items that are going out of stock, which may continue until the item is sold out, pretty much all sales are limited time offers, for example. In fact, not being a limited time offer would make something not a sale -- companies get in trouble for pretending something is on sale when really, it's never been the 'regular' price. Pointing out that a sale is a limited time offer doesn't seem like a dark pattern to me -- grocery store flyers are valid from Thursday to Wednesday or whatever.
posted by jacquilynne at 7:24 AM on February 1, 2021 [4 favorites]
Other than discounts on specific items that are going out of stock, which may continue until the item is sold out, pretty much all sales are limited time offers, for example. In fact, not being a limited time offer would make something not a sale -- companies get in trouble for pretending something is on sale when really, it's never been the 'regular' price. Pointing out that a sale is a limited time offer doesn't seem like a dark pattern to me -- grocery store flyers are valid from Thursday to Wednesday or whatever.
posted by jacquilynne at 7:24 AM on February 1, 2021 [4 favorites]
Pointing out that a sale is a limited time offer doesn't seem like a dark pattern to me
Except they aren't limited time offers - the little timer that says 'eight dollars off for the next 47 minutes!' will always reset. It's a completely fabricated deadline meant to drive impulse purchases.
posted by FatherDagon at 7:34 AM on February 1, 2021 [29 favorites]
Except they aren't limited time offers - the little timer that says 'eight dollars off for the next 47 minutes!' will always reset. It's a completely fabricated deadline meant to drive impulse purchases.
posted by FatherDagon at 7:34 AM on February 1, 2021 [29 favorites]
Thanks for sharing this paper, Stark. It's maddening to see this in all its raw data glory.
This also seems to reinforce some of the arguments in Shoshana Zuboff's book The Age of Surveillance Capitalism, which is an excellent analysis of some of the bigger, more dire, consequences of this behavior. There is an interview with her on WNYC from December where she discusses the "epistemic inequality" which arises from this new manipulative economic arrangement.
posted by triangle at 7:35 AM on February 1, 2021 [2 favorites]
This also seems to reinforce some of the arguments in Shoshana Zuboff's book The Age of Surveillance Capitalism, which is an excellent analysis of some of the bigger, more dire, consequences of this behavior. There is an interview with her on WNYC from December where she discusses the "epistemic inequality" which arises from this new manipulative economic arrangement.
posted by triangle at 7:35 AM on February 1, 2021 [2 favorites]
Except they aren't limited time offers - the little timer that says 'eight dollars off for the next 47 minutes!' will always reset. It's a completely fabricated deadline meant to drive impulse purchases.
Some of the examples, though, like the Samsung ad, are really just "Limited time offer" without the silly countdown timer.
posted by jacquilynne at 7:46 AM on February 1, 2021
Some of the examples, though, like the Samsung ad, are really just "Limited time offer" without the silly countdown timer.
posted by jacquilynne at 7:46 AM on February 1, 2021
Just because a technique seems "normal" does not mean it's not also manipulative and unethical. The fake sales and fake product scarcity are great examples of that. Yes, it's done all the time online. In the physical world too, the rug store that's perpetually going out of business and the "three day only sale!" at your local department store. These are techniques designed to manipulate people into buying things they otherwise would not buy.
Websites can be worse though. Between technology sleight-of-hand and lack of regulation there's a lot of super sleazy stuff in online shopping. Remember the mid 2000s when ecommerce sites would sell your credit card info to third parties that enrolled you in "loyalty programs" without your consent?
The online scam I encounter most often is at Amazon with "Amazon Choice"; when you're looking at 15 kinds of similar products (say, an HDMI cable) Amazon will label one as a "Choice". You are meant to think that means it's a particularly good product, or a good value. It's not. It's the one that optimizes profit for Amazon. It's literally their choice. They aren't breaking the law. They are deceiving the consumer.
posted by Nelson at 7:49 AM on February 1, 2021 [29 favorites]
Websites can be worse though. Between technology sleight-of-hand and lack of regulation there's a lot of super sleazy stuff in online shopping. Remember the mid 2000s when ecommerce sites would sell your credit card info to third parties that enrolled you in "loyalty programs" without your consent?
The online scam I encounter most often is at Amazon with "Amazon Choice"; when you're looking at 15 kinds of similar products (say, an HDMI cable) Amazon will label one as a "Choice". You are meant to think that means it's a particularly good product, or a good value. It's not. It's the one that optimizes profit for Amazon. It's literally their choice. They aren't breaking the law. They are deceiving the consumer.
posted by Nelson at 7:49 AM on February 1, 2021 [29 favorites]
Some of those things are really aggravating and some of them seem totally normal?
I'd think the researchers might be using a really low threshold for manipulativeness. We're so completely immersed in manipulation of consumer behavior it can be hard to see. But compared to societies where various factors, such as poor central planning, made for constant shortages of every type of consumer goods and the non-elites just had to grab whatever they could get their hands on, our retail vendors and even supply chains have been winnowed by a sort of evolutionary process so that every little detail of what feel normal is already pretty “offline dark pattern”, articulated and designed to lubricate the sales pipeline.
posted by XMLicious at 7:53 AM on February 1, 2021 [4 favorites]
Also, the web site behaviors I've clicked through in the OP link so far are focused on the interaction between the visitor and the user interface / web page they're seeing on a particular occasion, but note that other very manipulative things are happening such as A/B testing, where the site shows different visitors different things.
So a retail site might experiment on people by showing them different prices or applying different combinations of these dark patterns to see which ones work better, or a newstertainment site might experiment on people by showing different headlines for articles to see if some versions result in more time spent reading the article, more recommended/related articles clicked on, or more ads clicked on.
posted by XMLicious at 8:01 AM on February 1, 2021 [7 favorites]
So a retail site might experiment on people by showing them different prices or applying different combinations of these dark patterns to see which ones work better, or a newstertainment site might experiment on people by showing different headlines for articles to see if some versions result in more time spent reading the article, more recommended/related articles clicked on, or more ads clicked on.
posted by XMLicious at 8:01 AM on February 1, 2021 [7 favorites]
This kind of paper desperately wants *ranking*. The raw number of "dark patterns", as defined by the authors, isn't really comparable to, say, the raw number of parasites in drinking water.
But without weighting those that are truly terrible above the benign, this presentation elevates the idea of "dark patterns" beyond a framework for evaluating the ethics of a specific online entity and into a vocabulary that could (and will) be used to turn your brain off.
Not all manipulation is bad. Ask the altruists!
posted by justinethanmathews at 8:11 AM on February 1, 2021
But without weighting those that are truly terrible above the benign, this presentation elevates the idea of "dark patterns" beyond a framework for evaluating the ethics of a specific online entity and into a vocabulary that could (and will) be used to turn your brain off.
Not all manipulation is bad. Ask the altruists!
posted by justinethanmathews at 8:11 AM on February 1, 2021
to expand on what XMLicious posted, I work for an online B2B retailer and we regularly use A/B testing in our UX to gather data on our user behavior. This assists in all sorts of data gathering and is not in any way nefarious or abby normal.
posted by djseafood at 8:16 AM on February 1, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by djseafood at 8:16 AM on February 1, 2021 [1 favorite]
> not in any way nefarious or abby normal.
A/B normal, surely?
posted by genpfault at 8:37 AM on February 1, 2021 [11 favorites]
A/B normal, surely?
posted by genpfault at 8:37 AM on February 1, 2021 [11 favorites]
Ah, see last night's 60 Minutes “The Biodata Race, DNA For Sale”; saying, “but we're extracting data from consumers via iffy or non-existent consent for science, profitable profitable science” does not at all equal “not in any way nefarious”.
posted by XMLicious at 8:40 AM on February 1, 2021 [3 favorites]
posted by XMLicious at 8:40 AM on February 1, 2021 [3 favorites]
Whenever I visit a news site or shop online it feels like I'm roleplaying a pop-up version of Green Eggs and Ham:
Would you like notifications?
I do not like notifications.
I do not like them, customer relations.
Would you like our newsletter?
Tracking to make your experience better?
I do not want your newsletter.
Tracking won't make my experience better.
I do not like pop-ups or dings.
I just want to read or buy a thing.
No cookies in my browser, no app on my phone.
Please let me do this and leave me alone.
posted by evidenceofabsence at 8:44 AM on February 1, 2021 [87 favorites]
Would you like notifications?
I do not like notifications.
I do not like them, customer relations.
Would you like our newsletter?
Tracking to make your experience better?
I do not want your newsletter.
Tracking won't make my experience better.
I do not like pop-ups or dings.
I just want to read or buy a thing.
No cookies in my browser, no app on my phone.
Please let me do this and leave me alone.
posted by evidenceofabsence at 8:44 AM on February 1, 2021 [87 favorites]
At least some states have laws on the books about sales that aren't sales or shops advertising a going out of business sale when they aren't actually going out of business. While it would be nice if they were enforced without a preceding complaint from the public, perhaps we should also consider reporting violations to the relevant authority.
Even if it's online, such laws do apply to any retailer with nexus in the state. In Amazon's case, that's pretty much every state at this point. In others, one might have to figure out where they are based or where they have an office or warehouse of some kind.
posted by wierdo at 8:54 AM on February 1, 2021 [1 favorite]
Even if it's online, such laws do apply to any retailer with nexus in the state. In Amazon's case, that's pretty much every state at this point. In others, one might have to figure out where they are based or where they have an office or warehouse of some kind.
posted by wierdo at 8:54 AM on February 1, 2021 [1 favorite]
> Whenever I visit a news site or shop online it feels like I'm roleplaying a pop-up version of Green Eggs and Ham:
I do not like it, Scam I am
(I'll find the door, thanks)
posted by kleinsteradikaleminderheit at 9:00 AM on February 1, 2021 [22 favorites]
I do not like it, Scam I am
(I'll find the door, thanks)
posted by kleinsteradikaleminderheit at 9:00 AM on February 1, 2021 [22 favorites]
After spending billions to collect and mine personal data and analyzing it with sophisticated AI tools; We're still just using the same old sales tricks. The only question I have is when you buy these systems; do they offer you fries?
posted by interogative mood at 9:15 AM on February 1, 2021
posted by interogative mood at 9:15 AM on February 1, 2021
This kind of thing really grates on me.
I noticed a very suspicious number of 'only 1 left in stock' messages when I am searching for something on Amazon. It has gotten to the point that I now, almost unconsciously, close the Amazon page when I see this. And I always have to search other places first to get a good idea of what is available at various prices because there's no way Amazon is going to show me low cost choices first unless I really dig into their site. To heck with them.
I only go on Facebook because I have a couple of relatives who exclusively communicate through it (one of them gave me the Facebook account out of exasperation with me). So when I go there to see their content, I always have to go through this barricade wall of things Facebook wants me to see rather than showing me what I went there to see which drives me up the wall and makes me want to avoid Facebook even more.
posted by eye of newt at 9:34 AM on February 1, 2021 [3 favorites]
I noticed a very suspicious number of 'only 1 left in stock' messages when I am searching for something on Amazon. It has gotten to the point that I now, almost unconsciously, close the Amazon page when I see this. And I always have to search other places first to get a good idea of what is available at various prices because there's no way Amazon is going to show me low cost choices first unless I really dig into their site. To heck with them.
I only go on Facebook because I have a couple of relatives who exclusively communicate through it (one of them gave me the Facebook account out of exasperation with me). So when I go there to see their content, I always have to go through this barricade wall of things Facebook wants me to see rather than showing me what I went there to see which drives me up the wall and makes me want to avoid Facebook even more.
posted by eye of newt at 9:34 AM on February 1, 2021 [3 favorites]
but note that other very manipulative things are happening such as A/B testing, where the site shows different visitors different things.
Holding up two different sweaters in front front of your mirror too see which one you want to wear while getting dressed in the morning is you engaging is this nefarious and manipultive marketing process.
posted by sideshow at 10:19 AM on February 1, 2021 [1 favorite]
Holding up two different sweaters in front front of your mirror too see which one you want to wear while getting dressed in the morning is you engaging is this nefarious and manipultive marketing process.
posted by sideshow at 10:19 AM on February 1, 2021 [1 favorite]
What about the role of user-generated content contributing to these patterns, e.g., positive reviews or negative reviews? I know we've posted on MF about fake reviews before.
E.g. on Amazon: re: wool blankets (my actual shopping experience). There appear to be military type camping blankets, the kind with machine whipstitching instead of seam binding, and higher end housewares wool blankets. The camping blankets start around $25 and the price differential with the housewares blankets is at least $100. I'm aware that a really good housewares wool blanket, Pendleton or Hudson's Bay type, will cost you around $300 and last forever.
A pattern of negative reviews of the cheaper version of the product seems to be driving the consumer towards buying the more expensive one. Do milspec wool blankets really smell like gasoline and shed fluff like crazy? I am getting to hate and regret shopping on Amazon because I feel sucked into a maelstrom of consumer paranoia.
One also doesn't know how the user-generated content gets pruned at the back end (e.g., a high-profile brand that solicits "user stories" is not going to post negative reviews).
"Green Eggs and Spam" is fantastic, by the way, I want more of it.
posted by bad grammar at 10:30 AM on February 1, 2021 [3 favorites]
E.g. on Amazon: re: wool blankets (my actual shopping experience). There appear to be military type camping blankets, the kind with machine whipstitching instead of seam binding, and higher end housewares wool blankets. The camping blankets start around $25 and the price differential with the housewares blankets is at least $100. I'm aware that a really good housewares wool blanket, Pendleton or Hudson's Bay type, will cost you around $300 and last forever.
A pattern of negative reviews of the cheaper version of the product seems to be driving the consumer towards buying the more expensive one. Do milspec wool blankets really smell like gasoline and shed fluff like crazy? I am getting to hate and regret shopping on Amazon because I feel sucked into a maelstrom of consumer paranoia.
One also doesn't know how the user-generated content gets pruned at the back end (e.g., a high-profile brand that solicits "user stories" is not going to post negative reviews).
"Green Eggs and Spam" is fantastic, by the way, I want more of it.
posted by bad grammar at 10:30 AM on February 1, 2021 [3 favorites]
We need a better word than "dark" for this stuff. "Dark" is not inherently tricky, manipulative, or out to get you.
posted by The corpse in the library at 10:36 AM on February 1, 2021 [10 favorites]
posted by The corpse in the library at 10:36 AM on February 1, 2021 [10 favorites]
What will really get you going is when you realize that being forced to accept the terms and conditions often means that your identity, purchasing data, browsing history and so on are all being added to a database for further manipulation. Hell, some sites are capable of tracking how well the dark patterns work on you, and which ones you're more likely to be affected by in the future. None of us has any idea how many Tableau charts we've been a data point on...
posted by Chuffy at 10:42 AM on February 1, 2021
posted by Chuffy at 10:42 AM on February 1, 2021
Do milspec wool blankets really smell like gasoline and shed fluff like crazy?
If you order from Amazon, quite possibly. There are a lot of shady third-party vendors on there, and what you order may not be what you get. I ordered what was supposed to be a US made memory foam pillow. It came wrapped in plastic printed with Mandarin characters and smelled like burning toxic waste.
posted by LindsayIrene at 10:44 AM on February 1, 2021 [1 favorite]
If you order from Amazon, quite possibly. There are a lot of shady third-party vendors on there, and what you order may not be what you get. I ordered what was supposed to be a US made memory foam pillow. It came wrapped in plastic printed with Mandarin characters and smelled like burning toxic waste.
posted by LindsayIrene at 10:44 AM on February 1, 2021 [1 favorite]
Holding up two different sweaters in front front of your mirror too see which one you want to wear while getting dressed in the morning is you engaging is this nefarious and manipultive marketing process.
That's a very odd comment. Although that is also "A/B testing", it is plainly not at all the same thing as what's being described in the article.
posted by Greg_Ace at 10:57 AM on February 1, 2021 [5 favorites]
That's a very odd comment. Although that is also "A/B testing", it is plainly not at all the same thing as what's being described in the article.
posted by Greg_Ace at 10:57 AM on February 1, 2021 [5 favorites]
This idea of using scarcity to drive sales has been around for a long time (The Home Shopping Network, QVC, and all of those imitators was built on the concept!).
Human behavior is weird and very hackable, this Psychology Today article digs into some studies on the use of scarcity to persuade and influence and basically, the line between deceptive and non-deceptive practices is very blurry.
But at a higher level, I think the thing that worries me is how these patterns are being weaponized by UX designers in increasingly subtle and sophisticated ways. Here's a minor example that you can experience for yourself: If you're not a Facebook member (or are logged out) and you go to a public Facebook page, (let's say you want to see a restaurant's menu and FB is the only place they put it), you will first get a banner at the bottom of the page encouraging you to login or get an account.
After 4 or 5 seconds, *just* enough time to start reading, the page gets taken over by a full-screen modal window which is exactly the same as the aforementioned banner.
Now I guarantee you that every single element of this interaction has been tested to death by FB, from the height of the original banner, to the speed of the animation when the full-screen banner appears and disappears. Even the words "Not now" being used instead of "Close window" or something similar are telling. Someone found and refined the "sweet spot" where these interruptions are *just annoying enough* to try to wear the user down, but not too annoying and very hard to prove that these tactics are deceptive or even intentional.
Furthermore, the real issue is how these patterns are becoming refined and integrated into practice. When small business owners or other companies set up a new website, these techniques are just part of the package and these patterns get replicated across the web.
posted by jeremias at 11:02 AM on February 1, 2021 [5 favorites]
Human behavior is weird and very hackable, this Psychology Today article digs into some studies on the use of scarcity to persuade and influence and basically, the line between deceptive and non-deceptive practices is very blurry.
But at a higher level, I think the thing that worries me is how these patterns are being weaponized by UX designers in increasingly subtle and sophisticated ways. Here's a minor example that you can experience for yourself: If you're not a Facebook member (or are logged out) and you go to a public Facebook page, (let's say you want to see a restaurant's menu and FB is the only place they put it), you will first get a banner at the bottom of the page encouraging you to login or get an account.
After 4 or 5 seconds, *just* enough time to start reading, the page gets taken over by a full-screen modal window which is exactly the same as the aforementioned banner.
Now I guarantee you that every single element of this interaction has been tested to death by FB, from the height of the original banner, to the speed of the animation when the full-screen banner appears and disappears. Even the words "Not now" being used instead of "Close window" or something similar are telling. Someone found and refined the "sweet spot" where these interruptions are *just annoying enough* to try to wear the user down, but not too annoying and very hard to prove that these tactics are deceptive or even intentional.
Furthermore, the real issue is how these patterns are becoming refined and integrated into practice. When small business owners or other companies set up a new website, these techniques are just part of the package and these patterns get replicated across the web.
posted by jeremias at 11:02 AM on February 1, 2021 [5 favorites]
Another insidious thing: like advertising in general, it seems to be conditioning us all that in general, it's not only advantageous to lie, it's common practice. As if hype and hucksterism is part of our cultural DNA.
posted by kurumi at 11:13 AM on February 1, 2021 [4 favorites]
posted by kurumi at 11:13 AM on February 1, 2021 [4 favorites]
As if hype and hucksterism is part of our cultural DNA.
Are you claiming it isn't?
posted by Greg_Ace at 11:50 AM on February 1, 2021 [2 favorites]
Are you claiming it isn't?
posted by Greg_Ace at 11:50 AM on February 1, 2021 [2 favorites]
"Only 3 left in stock" doesn't make me want the item, it only gives me a bad impression of the vendor as being disorganised.
posted by mokey at 1:04 PM on February 1, 2021
posted by mokey at 1:04 PM on February 1, 2021
"Only 3 left in stock" doesn't make me want the item, it only gives me a bad impression of the vendor as being disorganised.
I used to think that too, but now with COVID I just assume they are as real as the empty spaces on actual store shelves where the thing I want used to be.
posted by The_Vegetables at 1:18 PM on February 1, 2021
I used to think that too, but now with COVID I just assume they are as real as the empty spaces on actual store shelves where the thing I want used to be.
posted by The_Vegetables at 1:18 PM on February 1, 2021
Holding up two different sweaters in front front of your mirror too see which one you want to wear while getting dressed in the morning is you engaging is this nefarious and manipultive marketing process.
No, because they are different sweaters. A/B testing isn't about showing different products to see which sells better or faster, it's showing different representations of the same information (page design and wording, for example, and/or prices), to see which results in more profit in the form of faster or more-likely purchases.
posted by rhizome at 1:25 PM on February 1, 2021 [3 favorites]
No, because they are different sweaters. A/B testing isn't about showing different products to see which sells better or faster, it's showing different representations of the same information (page design and wording, for example, and/or prices), to see which results in more profit in the form of faster or more-likely purchases.
posted by rhizome at 1:25 PM on February 1, 2021 [3 favorites]
We found at least one instance of dark pattern on approximately 11.1% of the examined websites.That's actually lower than I expected?
posted by RobotHero at 1:37 PM on February 1, 2021 [2 favorites]
Back in innocent times in the early 2000’s, a friend was at a computer security conference. One speaker gave a demonstration. On a table he had a couple computers. On one, he went to look up a book on Amazon, it came up for $25. On the other, he went to B&N and looked up the same book, $25. Then on that same computer he opened up another browser window and looked up the book on Amazon, $20. He explained that Amazon was able to track your browser history and see that you first went to B&N, what book it was, and they got the price. When you next went to Amazon up pops a lower price. On the first computer there was no such history so Amazon gave you the normal price. He suggested you use this algorithm while online shopping. I seriously doubt things work that way now. So what are the ways to combat this evil behavior?
posted by njohnson23 at 2:13 PM on February 1, 2021 [4 favorites]
posted by njohnson23 at 2:13 PM on February 1, 2021 [4 favorites]
We need a better word than "dark" for this stuff. "Dark" is not inherently tricky, manipulative, or out to get you.
Come on, dark=bad is the cherished foundation of our white-supremacist society! We can't change it now, it's tradition.
[Joke]
posted by medusa at 5:55 PM on February 1, 2021
Come on, dark=bad is the cherished foundation of our white-supremacist society! We can't change it now, it's tradition.
[Joke]
posted by medusa at 5:55 PM on February 1, 2021
I always assumed they were using "dark" in the sense of "in the shadows, hidden from direct view", but point taken.
posted by Greg_Ace at 5:59 PM on February 1, 2021
posted by Greg_Ace at 5:59 PM on February 1, 2021
"Only 3 left in stock" doesn't make me want the item, it only gives me a bad impression of the vendor as being disorganised.
That depends a lot on what sort of vendor and product it is. Anyway, I think the point of what can make that a “dark pattern” is when the retailer is lying about it or being vague about it to drive the purchase. It’s sort of like the “limited time” pattern - it gets darker as the retailer is more vague and/or lying.
Sometimes you can just peek behind the scenes of some of those “social proof” widgets that claim Missy from Missoula just bought that thing you’re looking at and find the canned list of names and locations it is shuffling through.
When small business owners or other companies set up a new website, these techniques are just part of the package and these patterns get replicated across the web.
And you should see the dark patterns used to foist those upgrades on to the small business owner. It’s turtles all the way down.
posted by jimw at 10:08 PM on February 1, 2021 [1 favorite]
That depends a lot on what sort of vendor and product it is. Anyway, I think the point of what can make that a “dark pattern” is when the retailer is lying about it or being vague about it to drive the purchase. It’s sort of like the “limited time” pattern - it gets darker as the retailer is more vague and/or lying.
Sometimes you can just peek behind the scenes of some of those “social proof” widgets that claim Missy from Missoula just bought that thing you’re looking at and find the canned list of names and locations it is shuffling through.
When small business owners or other companies set up a new website, these techniques are just part of the package and these patterns get replicated across the web.
And you should see the dark patterns used to foist those upgrades on to the small business owner. It’s turtles all the way down.
posted by jimw at 10:08 PM on February 1, 2021 [1 favorite]
What about streaming movie sites with limited filter options. Wait, so you can remember whether I liked a movie, but you can't give me the option of choosing to ignore films I will never watch, even under threat of water boarding, but will have to scroll past every time I view your site as a subscriber?
posted by Beholder at 12:05 AM on February 2, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by Beholder at 12:05 AM on February 2, 2021 [2 favorites]
Holding up two different sweaters in front front of your mirror too see which one you want to wear while getting dressed in the morning is you engaging is this nefarious and manipultive marketing process.
I know you're probably kind of joking, but let's please not downplay the effect A/B testing has. Having implemented these tests for small, medium, and enormous companies, I've come to the opinion that A/B testing is one of the greater evils of our time. It sounds innocuous to just compare two variables, but in practice it incentivizes and more importantly normalizes and excuses these dark patterns.
A/B testing isn't just carving out an extra 0.01
2% more profit with misleading sales and hidden opt out buttons; it's the Facebook algorithm, it's fake news, it's identifying the precise maximum amount of late stage capitalistic hostility the public will bear. A/B testing is slowly boiling the frog of the internet into one big dark pattern. A/B testing is how we got the last president. A/B testing has a body count.
posted by cirrostratus at 12:54 PM on February 2, 2021 [3 favorites]
I know you're probably kind of joking, but let's please not downplay the effect A/B testing has. Having implemented these tests for small, medium, and enormous companies, I've come to the opinion that A/B testing is one of the greater evils of our time. It sounds innocuous to just compare two variables, but in practice it incentivizes and more importantly normalizes and excuses these dark patterns.
A/B testing isn't just carving out an extra 0.01
2% more profit with misleading sales and hidden opt out buttons; it's the Facebook algorithm, it's fake news, it's identifying the precise maximum amount of late stage capitalistic hostility the public will bear. A/B testing is slowly boiling the frog of the internet into one big dark pattern. A/B testing is how we got the last president. A/B testing has a body count.
posted by cirrostratus at 12:54 PM on February 2, 2021 [3 favorites]
I guess where it feels nefarious compared to looking at two different sweaters is: when you look at both sweaters you're asking, which do I like more? A / B testing measures changes in behaviour, rather than preferences. So it's very prone to be used for "can we maneuver people into doing what we want?"
posted by RobotHero at 1:52 PM on February 2, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by RobotHero at 1:52 PM on February 2, 2021 [1 favorite]
To be sure, it's "two different sweaters" on the company side, where the results of A and B are analyzed and chosen between. For us though, we don't even know, since they mark their browser cookie with which side of the A/B test you're currently on, so that A-subjects never see what B-subjects do, and vice versa. If we could know such a thing without the rigamarole of deleting cookies and making notes of every design and information element on a page, with which to compare, the company would get constant shit on Twitter et al.
posted by rhizome at 6:13 PM on February 2, 2021
posted by rhizome at 6:13 PM on February 2, 2021
I think you're missing the point, rhizome: it's nothing to do with the actual mechanics of how A/B testing or the specifics of how computers work or how software or network technologies work. The A/B testing and the dark patterns are cumulative ubiquitous engineered controlling pressures and manipulation our society† has taught individuals they must simply accept.
It's like hostile architecture, or for a more complicated example variations in emphasis on the teaching of Christian doctrine, iconology, and hagiography in post-Roman feudal societies versus the Constantinian Roman Empire—suddenly the maundy washing of the feet, and humility, and everything that has to with valorizing being a servant to a lord, is waaaaaay more important than the martyring yourself defying Caesar or the Arians or the Donatists, except when society's elite tell you to. (The latter, earlier attitude of righteous defiance of power being a significant part of Jesus's teachings that Islam held onto, and militant Protestantism reclaimed during the Reformation.)
It's not that nothing should be controlled... it's that we're being sort of brain-sculpted, like with the Newspeak re-engineering of language itself in George Orwell's Nineteen Eighty-Four, to not even recognize the subtle details of our interactions with automated inanimate objects as a form of societal control.
† Our capitalist society, though swap the technology into any other political and economic system and power is as power does.
posted by XMLicious at 9:00 PM on February 2, 2021
It's like hostile architecture, or for a more complicated example variations in emphasis on the teaching of Christian doctrine, iconology, and hagiography in post-Roman feudal societies versus the Constantinian Roman Empire—suddenly the maundy washing of the feet, and humility, and everything that has to with valorizing being a servant to a lord, is waaaaaay more important than the martyring yourself defying Caesar or the Arians or the Donatists, except when society's elite tell you to. (The latter, earlier attitude of righteous defiance of power being a significant part of Jesus's teachings that Islam held onto, and militant Protestantism reclaimed during the Reformation.)
It's not that nothing should be controlled... it's that we're being sort of brain-sculpted, like with the Newspeak re-engineering of language itself in George Orwell's Nineteen Eighty-Four, to not even recognize the subtle details of our interactions with automated inanimate objects as a form of societal control.
† Our capitalist society, though swap the technology into any other political and economic system and power is as power does.
posted by XMLicious at 9:00 PM on February 2, 2021
Nothing about dark patterns or the sort of user autonomy stuff we've been discussing here specifically, but Richie Koch makes it sound like the EU is preparing for an assault on the commanding heights of the tech/surveillance economy:
Why the future of the internet depends on the Digital Markets Actposted by XMLicious at 11:26 PM on February 2, 2021
The DMA could help make the internet a level playing field – but is the EU serious about taking on Big Tech?
Instead of dark, how about false affordances?
posted by anthill at 1:29 PM on February 14, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by anthill at 1:29 PM on February 14, 2021 [1 favorite]
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Even those of us running retail websites are victims of these same techniques. Shopify refuses to build in basic functionality onto their platform so they can instead offer thousands of third-party plugins and apps that charge monthly fees (which they take a cut of but don't have to provide support for).
posted by rikschell at 5:31 AM on February 1, 2021 [11 favorites]