Ethnic cleansing in Nagorno-Karabakh, 2022 - present
August 25, 2023 1:44 AM Subscribe
"As I pen down these words in my office at the Armenian Theological Seminary of the Holy See of Cilicia, it’s heartrending to acknowledge that over 120,000 Armenian individuals, including children in Artsakh (Nagorno-Karabagh) within the South Caucasus, are facing the dire fate of starvation. Unlike many other instances of famine, this crisis has been inflicted upon them due to the actions of their neighboring country, Azerbaijan. By blocking the sole connecting road to the Republic of Armenia, known as the Lachin Corridor, Azerbaijan has triggered and augmented this suffering. For more than a week, 400 tons of vital humanitarian aid have been stranded along the road to Artsakh, all due to Azerbaijan’s political agenda of ethnic cleansing in the region, with the aim of asserting the entire territory as part of Azerbaijan."
Blockade of the Republic of Artsakh (2022–present) (Wikipedia)
The Humanitarian Crisis in Nagorno-Karabakh Is a Textbook Example of Ethnic Cleansing (Time)
Azerbaijan remains unpunished for causing humanitarian crisis in Artsakh (The Armenian Weekly)
Neil Hauer on Twitter (with video):
Statement by President von der Leyen with Azerbaijani President Aliyev
Neil Hauer on Twitter:
Ahead of Ukraine invasion, Azerbaijan and Russia cement “alliance” (eurasianet)
The blockade of the Republic of Artsakh is an ongoing event in the Nagorno-Karabakh conflict. The region is disputed between Azerbaijan and the breakaway Republic of Artsakh, which has a majority ethnic Armenian population and is supported by neighbouring Armenia.
A group of Azerbaijani citizens identifying as “environmental activists” barricaded the Lachin corridor, a mountainous road that serves as the only path between Armenia and Nagorno-Karabakh, since December 12. The flow of food and medicine fell to a trickle before the supplies essential for the continuation of normal life gradually disappeared altogether. A place that once received 400 tons of food and medical supplies daily now barely receives a few carloads on a good day. Hospitals have indefinitely put surgeries on hold. Children are going hungry. There is an acute shortage of fuel as temperatures drop to below -4°C, and families are burning scraps to heat their homes.
All these processes have shown that Azerbaijan continues to use the opportunities of impunity. Azerbaijan can only be restrained by painful and substantial sanctions. In this case the question is which states can take such a step, putting humanism above state interests. It is difficult for the international community to imagine the real situation of 120,000 residents of the Republic of Artsakh who are under blockade. It is a fact that 120,000 people are hostages as a result of the Armenian-hating policy of the neighboring state. In the conditions of the blockade, the Artsakh authorities see the use of Stepanakert Airport for humanitarian purposes for the transportation of humanitarian goods on medium-sized planes as the only way to mitigate the humanitarian catastrophe. There is no guarantee that Azerbaijan will not create obstacles now.
The population of the self-proclaimed Nagorno-Karabakh Republic, which is under total blockade, appealed to the international community with a message of respect for self-determination through peaceful and civilized actions. The concept of “recognition for the sake of salvation” was the basis for the nationwide rallies in Stepanakert on October 30, 2022 and December 25, 2022 with the participation of tens of thousands of people.
Azerbaijani troops opened fire on EU observers in Armenia near the border today. The video below shows an EU observer sheltering in an Armenian bunker after their vehicles were shot at by Azerbaijani troops.
Thank you very much Mr President for the warm welcome here in Baku. And thank you for stepping up and for supporting the European Union. Because already before Russia's brutal invasion of Ukraine, the Russian gas supplies to Europe were no more reliable. The European Union has therefore decided to diversify away from Russia and to turn towards more reliable, trustworthy partners. And I am glad to count Azerbaijan among them. You are indeed a crucial energy partner for us and you have always been reliable. You were a crucial partner not only for our security of supply, but also in our efforts to become climate neutral. The Memorandum of Understanding that we have just signed makes our energy partnership even stronger.
Meanwhile, the 'trustworthy' Ilham Aliyev last year, in front of the helmets of soldiers killed by the war of choice he started in 2020
Two days before Russia launched a massive invasion of Ukraine, President Vladimir Putin signed a wide-ranging agreement with his Azerbaijani counterpart, Ilham Aliyev, deepening their diplomatic and military cooperation.
The signing of the declaration “brings our relations to the level of an alliance,” Aliyev said after the signing in Moscow.
Jfc. Haven’t the Armenians suffered enough genocide?
posted by vim876 at 6:00 AM on August 25, 2023 [10 favorites]
posted by vim876 at 6:00 AM on August 25, 2023 [10 favorites]
I think "religious war" is a very strong claim to make and isn't supported solely by demographic statistics of two countries in conflict. I don't know enough about the region to say you're wrong, I have no idea, I'm just saying the case hasn't really been made here.
posted by dusty potato at 7:03 AM on August 25, 2023 [7 favorites]
posted by dusty potato at 7:03 AM on August 25, 2023 [7 favorites]
Ethnicity and religion seem pretty closely tied together here.
posted by AdamCSnider at 8:10 AM on August 25, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by AdamCSnider at 8:10 AM on August 25, 2023 [2 favorites]
Armenians that I have met tend towards being excellent. Really sad that they are getting such a raw deal and nobody seems to much care. Super rich and ancient culture getting gradually stomped out by assholes.
posted by Meatbomb at 8:41 AM on August 25, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by Meatbomb at 8:41 AM on August 25, 2023 [3 favorites]
I had no idea this was happening. Thank you for the informative post.
posted by emd3737 at 8:46 AM on August 25, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by emd3737 at 8:46 AM on August 25, 2023 [3 favorites]
There's a certain quality of killing your parents and pleading for mercy as an orphan here, what with Armenia invading Azerbaijan first.
posted by tavella at 9:21 AM on August 25, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by tavella at 9:21 AM on August 25, 2023 [1 favorite]
This makes me want to re-read Samantha Power’s “a problem from hell: America’s and the age of genocide.” There can certainly be an “everyone sucks here” when we look at nationalist/ethnic/religious conflict, but Power argues that we can’t just say these are “problems from hell” and ignore clean ethnic cleansing/ genocide.
posted by CostcoCultist at 9:33 AM on August 25, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by CostcoCultist at 9:33 AM on August 25, 2023 [2 favorites]
Armenia invading Azerbaijan first.
I presume you mean the first war in 1992.
If that is what you mean? You're charming metaphor doesn't explain much at all, except that your victim blaming is [CITATION NEEDED].
posted by adept256 at 10:14 AM on August 25, 2023 [11 favorites]
I presume you mean the first war in 1992.
The demand to unify with Armenia began in a relatively peaceful manner in 1988; in the following months, as the Soviet Union disintegrated, it gradually grew into an increasingly violent conflict between Armenians and Azerbaijanis, resulting in ethnic cleansing,[35][36] including the Sumgait (1988) and Baku (1990) pogroms directed against Armenians, and the Gugark pogrom (1988) and Khojaly Massacre (1992) directed against Azerbaijanis. Inter-ethnic clashes between the two broke out shortly after the parliament of the Nagorno-Karabakh Autonomous Oblast (NKAO) in Azerbaijan voted to unite the region with Armenia on 20 February 1988. The declaration of secession from Azerbaijan was the culmination of a territorial conflict.[37] As Azerbaijan declared its independence from the Soviet Union and removed the powers held by the enclave's government, the Armenian majority voted to secede from Azerbaijan and in the process proclaimed the unrecognized Republic of Nagorno-Karabakh.I would argue they rescued the enclave from what was clearly about to happen, and by necessity securing the corridor and surrounding area. They know how this worked the last time Armenians called for independence - the Shusha massacre
Full-scale fighting erupted in early 1992. International mediation by several groups including the Conference for Security and Co-operation in Europe (CSCE) failed to bring an end resolution that both sides could work with. In early 1993, Armenian forces captured seven Azerbaijani-majority districts outside the enclave itself, threatening the involvement of other countries in the region.[g] By the end of the war in 1994, the Armenians were in full control of the enclave, in addition to surrounding Azerbaijani territories, most notably the Lachin Corridor – a mountain pass that links Nagorno-Karabakh with mainland Armenia. A Russian-brokered ceasefire was signed in May 1994.
[T]he mass killing of the Armenian population of Shusha from 22–26 March 1920[1][2][3][4][5] and the destruction and process of "cultural de-Armenianization" of Nagorno-Karabakh.[6] The number of deaths vary across sources, with the most conservative estimate being 500, and the highest estimates reaching 20,000.I guess you'd prefer that when Armenians call for independence, their fellow Armenians should just ignore the ensuing pogrom established by historical precedence?
Azerbaijani troops, along with city's Azerbaijani inhabitants, turned their wrath on Shusha' Armenian population.[12] The city's churches were put to the flame, as were cultural institutions, schools, libraries, the business section, and the homes of wealthy Armenians. Bishop Vahan (Ter-Grigorian), who had sought a policy of accommodation with the Azerbaijani authorities, was murdered and beheaded, his "head paraded through the streets on a spike."[12] Chief of police Avetis Ter-Ghukasian was "turned into a human torch," while hundreds of others were similarly murdered with impunity.
If that is what you mean? You're charming metaphor doesn't explain much at all, except that your victim blaming is [CITATION NEEDED].
posted by adept256 at 10:14 AM on August 25, 2023 [11 favorites]
It's absolutely a territorial/ethnic conflict. Its origins are to some extent religious in nature, but there is very little love lost on either side between Armenians and Azerbaijanis, in particular, independent of any religious fealties or loyalties factoring in, and that's been the case for a very long time now as they've been fighting over Artsakh.
This slow rolling catastrophe has looked like the most likely end of the Artsakh situation for quite a while now and it's very disturbing that probably nobody will intervene and the Armenians in Artsakh will mostly starve to death. I think a big lesson of the 20th century is that nobody gives a shit if you murder a whole lot of Armenians, you will see no lasting consequences, and nobody will ever come to their defense. Speaking as an American of Armenian ancestry, it's sort of a hard knowledge to sit with. But of course there are more ethnic groups on this planet who could say the same, than who could claim certainty that a genocide against them would have any repercussions. This is what it is to be a people without resources anyone wants badly enough to make allying with you worth while. And there are many groups all over the world that share that position - that just want a place to be themselves and live in peace where they've always lived, only to find that their position there grows increasingly untenable due to a changing political landscape around them.
"Armenia invaded Azerbaijan first" is absolutely not an incorrect read if you're just looking at recent history, and absolutely how the people perpetrating this atrocity are expecting people to excuse it to themselves. But ultimately that doesn't make this not ethnic cleansing. Artsakh has been an Armenian enclave to some extent for centuries regardless of the borders of the countries around it. This has been brewing for a long time, both sides have done indefensible things, I'm not going to defend the larger Armenian role in recent conflicts here. But the fact remains that one group is now blocking a road that the other group needs to use to get food and supplies. There's no reciprocal thing going on at this point. This is Azerbaijani people trying to starve a large group of Armenians out of their ancestral homeland once and for all, and man, it sucks that nobody's going to stop them.
I mean, come on world, prove me wrong.
posted by potrzebie at 10:35 AM on August 25, 2023 [22 favorites]
This slow rolling catastrophe has looked like the most likely end of the Artsakh situation for quite a while now and it's very disturbing that probably nobody will intervene and the Armenians in Artsakh will mostly starve to death. I think a big lesson of the 20th century is that nobody gives a shit if you murder a whole lot of Armenians, you will see no lasting consequences, and nobody will ever come to their defense. Speaking as an American of Armenian ancestry, it's sort of a hard knowledge to sit with. But of course there are more ethnic groups on this planet who could say the same, than who could claim certainty that a genocide against them would have any repercussions. This is what it is to be a people without resources anyone wants badly enough to make allying with you worth while. And there are many groups all over the world that share that position - that just want a place to be themselves and live in peace where they've always lived, only to find that their position there grows increasingly untenable due to a changing political landscape around them.
"Armenia invaded Azerbaijan first" is absolutely not an incorrect read if you're just looking at recent history, and absolutely how the people perpetrating this atrocity are expecting people to excuse it to themselves. But ultimately that doesn't make this not ethnic cleansing. Artsakh has been an Armenian enclave to some extent for centuries regardless of the borders of the countries around it. This has been brewing for a long time, both sides have done indefensible things, I'm not going to defend the larger Armenian role in recent conflicts here. But the fact remains that one group is now blocking a road that the other group needs to use to get food and supplies. There's no reciprocal thing going on at this point. This is Azerbaijani people trying to starve a large group of Armenians out of their ancestral homeland once and for all, and man, it sucks that nobody's going to stop them.
I mean, come on world, prove me wrong.
posted by potrzebie at 10:35 AM on August 25, 2023 [22 favorites]
Jfc. Haven’t the Armenians suffered enough genocide?
This is the perfect storm of Western neoliberalism, and the lens in which it views these sorts of situations. They nominally think everyone who's an adult in the room is operating in good faith and they're operating under the rules based world order of territorial integrity. Artsakh belongs to Azerbaijan. No value judgements whatsoever, no problem! The system works!
Meanwhile, borders that were set only by decades of colonialist and imperialist clusterfucks continue to wreak havoc on the people who have to live with them to this day.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 11:03 AM on August 25, 2023 [3 favorites]
This is the perfect storm of Western neoliberalism, and the lens in which it views these sorts of situations. They nominally think everyone who's an adult in the room is operating in good faith and they're operating under the rules based world order of territorial integrity. Artsakh belongs to Azerbaijan. No value judgements whatsoever, no problem! The system works!
Meanwhile, borders that were set only by decades of colonialist and imperialist clusterfucks continue to wreak havoc on the people who have to live with them to this day.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 11:03 AM on August 25, 2023 [3 favorites]
"Armenia invaded Azerbaijan first" is absolutely not an incorrect read if you're just looking at recent history, and absolutely how the people perpetrating this atrocity are expecting people to excuse it to themselves.
Exactly this. Armenians have been here forever. And bit by bit the outsiders have encroached. Mount Ararat is in Turkey, FFS.
Armenian terrirorial extent 331 BC–428 AD.
Armenian population centers 1800-1900.
Where Armenians lived before 1915.
posted by Meatbomb at 12:52 PM on August 25, 2023 [4 favorites]
Exactly this. Armenians have been here forever. And bit by bit the outsiders have encroached. Mount Ararat is in Turkey, FFS.
Armenian terrirorial extent 331 BC–428 AD.
Armenian population centers 1800-1900.
Where Armenians lived before 1915.
posted by Meatbomb at 12:52 PM on August 25, 2023 [4 favorites]
List of Byzantine emperors of Armenian origin.
posted by clavdivs at 2:11 PM on August 25, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by clavdivs at 2:11 PM on August 25, 2023 [2 favorites]
the zangezur corridor is another factor in all of this - there's a part of azerbaijan called nakhichevan that is totally separated from the rest of the country by armenia, who is not allowing their territory to be used for commerce and communication - therefore anything leaving azerbaijan by land to nakhichevan or turkey has to go through iran first which makes iran a nice amount of money, one they're not really willing to give up - (things can be sent through georgia, but that's not as convenient)
therefore iran has been supporting armenia in its refusal to allow a corridor to fix this problem, because azerbaijan could then have direct commerce with turkey without having to pay iran a cent, which certainly makes this less of a religious war
there are no clean hands here and the two countries that weren't at the negotiating table, turkey and iran, are interfering with the situation for their own reasons
it's quite possible that the leaders of all 5 countries should be imprisoned
in any case it's an awful mess, but taking it to the extreme of starving people is unacceptable for azerbaijan to be doing
posted by pyramid termite at 4:12 PM on August 25, 2023 [8 favorites]
therefore iran has been supporting armenia in its refusal to allow a corridor to fix this problem, because azerbaijan could then have direct commerce with turkey without having to pay iran a cent, which certainly makes this less of a religious war
there are no clean hands here and the two countries that weren't at the negotiating table, turkey and iran, are interfering with the situation for their own reasons
it's quite possible that the leaders of all 5 countries should be imprisoned
in any case it's an awful mess, but taking it to the extreme of starving people is unacceptable for azerbaijan to be doing
posted by pyramid termite at 4:12 PM on August 25, 2023 [8 favorites]
There are some comparisons to be drawn with the conflict between Serbs and Bosniaks, which is to say, it's religious conflict and it's also about the fringes of Empire.
There is strong evidence that Armenians are the genetic and also cultural descendants of the Hittites and Urartu, making them amongst the most ancient civilizations of the world.
Eastern Anatolia is like Poland or Afghanistan- it's the fringe, and it's also the hinge in the sense that controlling it allows you to sweep into other places (whether that's Anatolia, the steppes of the Caucusus, or south into Mesopotamia).
Depending on which historians you ask, Azeris are either a hybrid Turkish-Albanian/Caucasian group (linguistically Turkish) or Armenians who were Turkified and converted to Islam during the Seljuq conquests.
And like Poland and Afghanistan, the region has been at the push and pull of great imperial powers. Persians versus Macedonians and then Sassanid v. Romans; Arabs v. Byzantines; Turks v. Safavids; Turks v. Russians; with waxes and wanes of ethnic harmony and conflict between the proxy tribes (Azerbaijanies as the proxies/clients of the Turks and Persians, Armenians as the proxies/clients of the Byzantines and Russians).
Right now, we're in one of the trenches of the ethnic strife, where there is no imperial or international presence to function as an arbiter (like the USSR or the Ottoman Empire). That's both a good (national self-determination) and bad (no real brakes on ethno-populism) thing.
So yeah, it's a problem from hell, centuries old, the derivative of millenia of Empires using the people of the Caucasus as their proxies in conflicts at the Ends of the Empires. And just like Afghanistan or the former Yugoslavia, there will be no easy fixes.
posted by LeRoienJaune at 4:21 PM on August 25, 2023 [7 favorites]
There is strong evidence that Armenians are the genetic and also cultural descendants of the Hittites and Urartu, making them amongst the most ancient civilizations of the world.
Eastern Anatolia is like Poland or Afghanistan- it's the fringe, and it's also the hinge in the sense that controlling it allows you to sweep into other places (whether that's Anatolia, the steppes of the Caucusus, or south into Mesopotamia).
Depending on which historians you ask, Azeris are either a hybrid Turkish-Albanian/Caucasian group (linguistically Turkish) or Armenians who were Turkified and converted to Islam during the Seljuq conquests.
And like Poland and Afghanistan, the region has been at the push and pull of great imperial powers. Persians versus Macedonians and then Sassanid v. Romans; Arabs v. Byzantines; Turks v. Safavids; Turks v. Russians; with waxes and wanes of ethnic harmony and conflict between the proxy tribes (Azerbaijanies as the proxies/clients of the Turks and Persians, Armenians as the proxies/clients of the Byzantines and Russians).
Right now, we're in one of the trenches of the ethnic strife, where there is no imperial or international presence to function as an arbiter (like the USSR or the Ottoman Empire). That's both a good (national self-determination) and bad (no real brakes on ethno-populism) thing.
So yeah, it's a problem from hell, centuries old, the derivative of millenia of Empires using the people of the Caucasus as their proxies in conflicts at the Ends of the Empires. And just like Afghanistan or the former Yugoslavia, there will be no easy fixes.
posted by LeRoienJaune at 4:21 PM on August 25, 2023 [7 favorites]
Whatever historical claims Armenians have, the territory is legally part of Azerbaijan, and the West isn’t going to intervene in Azerbaijan’s territory — let alone set up a Kosovo situation — when we are putting so much into upholding Ukraine’s borders.
posted by riruro at 7:42 AM on August 26, 2023
posted by riruro at 7:42 AM on August 26, 2023
Depending on which historians you ask, Azeris are either a hybrid Turkish-Albanian/Caucasian group (linguistically Turkish) or Armenians who were Turkified and converted to Islam during the Seljuq conquests.
Obviously it's a purely incidental issue, one which is more to satisfy historical curiosity than to contextualize the intercultural strife, but I'm honestly surprised this question hasn't been settled by genetic analysis. Wouldn't those two different hypotheses lead to significantly different ancestry and underlying genetic markers for present-day Azeris?
That's both a good (national self-determination) and bad (no real brakes on ethno-populism) thing.
I'm uncomfortable with pure ethnostates, and yet, seeing how badly ethnic minorities are treated as a practical matter, I'm increasingly of the view that nation status for a region highly populated by an ethnic minority is always the moral (if not always practically attainable) good. Palestine, Tigray, Sahrawi, Kurdistan, and Kosovo all have made pretty good arguments that they need to be independent to not be subjected to subjugation; the details of ethnic breakaways elsewhere are a bit less in public attention but generally speaking it seems like, if a region desires independence, or desires union with a more culturally compatible state, they often have a good reason for doing so.
posted by jackbishop at 8:12 AM on August 26, 2023
Obviously it's a purely incidental issue, one which is more to satisfy historical curiosity than to contextualize the intercultural strife, but I'm honestly surprised this question hasn't been settled by genetic analysis. Wouldn't those two different hypotheses lead to significantly different ancestry and underlying genetic markers for present-day Azeris?
That's both a good (national self-determination) and bad (no real brakes on ethno-populism) thing.
I'm uncomfortable with pure ethnostates, and yet, seeing how badly ethnic minorities are treated as a practical matter, I'm increasingly of the view that nation status for a region highly populated by an ethnic minority is always the moral (if not always practically attainable) good. Palestine, Tigray, Sahrawi, Kurdistan, and Kosovo all have made pretty good arguments that they need to be independent to not be subjected to subjugation; the details of ethnic breakaways elsewhere are a bit less in public attention but generally speaking it seems like, if a region desires independence, or desires union with a more culturally compatible state, they often have a good reason for doing so.
posted by jackbishop at 8:12 AM on August 26, 2023
Great explanations in the thread. I love this site because the people here have so much energy to debunk bullshit. :)
posted by Didnt_do_enough at 8:02 PM on August 26, 2023
posted by Didnt_do_enough at 8:02 PM on August 26, 2023
The West is unlikely to intervene on behalf of the Armenians, because the Armenians were very cozy with—until they were arguably betrayed and left out to dry by—Putin's Russia.
At least they were up until 2018, when they elected a more pro-Western prime minister (Nikol Pashinyan), which seems to be why Russia is refusing to intervene and help resolve the Lachin corridor situation now.
Geopolitically, I think the Armenians are suffering from the perception that they are fence-sitters or attempting to navigate some sort of Troisième voie. Russia is content to let Artsakh/Nagorno-Karabagh starve, because that is exactly the sort of message they want to send to other onetime allies who might be thinking about putting their lot in with the West: they won't protect you. The West isn't interested spending geopolitical currency on a country that only collectively realized Putin wasn't a great guy in 2018, and still hosts a significant Russian military base and air-defense network assets, has visa-free travel for Russians, etc.
Plus, and perhaps most importantly, at least when you are discussing the "West" as defined by NATO, it notionally includes Turkey, which has a strong religious/cultural preference for Azerbaijan and historically doesn't seem to have an issue with murdering Armenians. (I mean, they got away with it at least once...)
That the world allows these sort of starve-the-populace siege tactics to be used in 2023 is an embarrassment to our civilization, but it doesn't seem like anyone with the power to stop it is interested in intervening.
posted by Kadin2048 at 9:49 PM on August 26, 2023
At least they were up until 2018, when they elected a more pro-Western prime minister (Nikol Pashinyan), which seems to be why Russia is refusing to intervene and help resolve the Lachin corridor situation now.
Geopolitically, I think the Armenians are suffering from the perception that they are fence-sitters or attempting to navigate some sort of Troisième voie. Russia is content to let Artsakh/Nagorno-Karabagh starve, because that is exactly the sort of message they want to send to other onetime allies who might be thinking about putting their lot in with the West: they won't protect you. The West isn't interested spending geopolitical currency on a country that only collectively realized Putin wasn't a great guy in 2018, and still hosts a significant Russian military base and air-defense network assets, has visa-free travel for Russians, etc.
Plus, and perhaps most importantly, at least when you are discussing the "West" as defined by NATO, it notionally includes Turkey, which has a strong religious/cultural preference for Azerbaijan and historically doesn't seem to have an issue with murdering Armenians. (I mean, they got away with it at least once...)
That the world allows these sort of starve-the-populace siege tactics to be used in 2023 is an embarrassment to our civilization, but it doesn't seem like anyone with the power to stop it is interested in intervening.
posted by Kadin2048 at 9:49 PM on August 26, 2023
Dismissing the Armenian invasion as back "in 1992" does kind of ignore that Armenia used the excuse of Nagorno-Karabakh to invade and occupy for decades a large part of southwest Azerbaijan, majority Azeri districts. Well, they were until Armenia ethnically cleansed them; in fact, about twice as many Azeri were expelled from their homes by Armenians than vice versa, including the nearly quarter of Nagorno-Karabakh itself that was Azeri and Kurdish. Unfortunately for Armenia, Azerbaijan's military skills considerably increased since the 1990s, and in 2020 they liberated most of those occupied areas in a lightning campaign, and threatened parts of Armenia itself.
Don't get me wrong, this doesn't make the Azeri forces "good guys" -- you'll find records of atrocities by those forces too. The issue should have been resolved by land and population exchanges, as was suggested by pretty much every power trying to negotiate a peaceful end. It's a bit ironic that it was the Nagorno-Karabakh leadership that was the roadblock for that.
So yeah, I'm still seeing it as a bit of a fuck around and find out moment. Even though I sympathize with those in Nagorno-Karabakh that weren't involved in the various pogroms and expulsions and are suffering for the stupidity of their leadership.
posted by tavella at 10:24 PM on August 27, 2023
Don't get me wrong, this doesn't make the Azeri forces "good guys" -- you'll find records of atrocities by those forces too. The issue should have been resolved by land and population exchanges, as was suggested by pretty much every power trying to negotiate a peaceful end. It's a bit ironic that it was the Nagorno-Karabakh leadership that was the roadblock for that.
So yeah, I'm still seeing it as a bit of a fuck around and find out moment. Even though I sympathize with those in Nagorno-Karabakh that weren't involved in the various pogroms and expulsions and are suffering for the stupidity of their leadership.
posted by tavella at 10:24 PM on August 27, 2023
« Older Small bedrooms have renewed hope for endangered... | feed the fire. Newer »
This thread has been archived and is closed to new comments
Religion in Azerbaijan: 99.2% Islam
Religion in Armenia: 99% Christian
I remember back in the 90s when the Balkan war was only ever talked about in terms of Serbs and Croats. It's a huge disservice to characterize this as a territorial or 'ethnic' conflict. It's a religious war, and if that offends your sensibilities, I promise you it doesn't bother the fighters.
The media are (still) terrible at this.
posted by adept256 at 2:42 AM on August 25, 2023 [8 favorites]