Every pun is a crossing
December 27, 2023 12:23 AM Subscribe
Crossword lovers, like joke lovers, have a quick-draw inventory of memorable puzzle themes; Ghogre describes a quip puzzle that featured the answers pig-tight, bull-strong, and horse-high—old cowpoke parlance for what a good fence should be. Ghogre had never seen a pig, and, as he told me, “We don’t have fences.” from Can Crosswords Be More Inclusive? [The New Yorker; ungated]
I always "joke" that if you wanted to complete an old school text adventure without help you need to have grown up on the same street as the author. This is an inherent limitation, or at least risk, of deliberately short, or "cryptic" clues; their compression uses the author's experience as part of the decompression lookup table. Sometimes that experience is way more regional than they realise.
posted by krisjohn at 1:48 AM on December 27, 2023 [11 favorites]
posted by krisjohn at 1:48 AM on December 27, 2023 [11 favorites]
I don't know if crossword puzzles should be more inclusive -- when I do an American puzzle, I just take it for granted that I won't know shit like the names of American television characters -- but a publication's crossword puzzles could automatically be limited to terms used in that publication. It would be up to the constructor to make sure clues correspond to how those terms are used in the publication.
By the way: Crossword Constructor Resource Guide
posted by pracowity at 2:41 AM on December 27, 2023 [8 favorites]
By the way: Crossword Constructor Resource Guide
posted by pracowity at 2:41 AM on December 27, 2023 [8 favorites]
This is an inherent limitation, or at least risk, of deliberately short, or "cryptic" clues; their compression uses the author's experience as part of the decompression lookup table.
A UK style cryptic offers two paths to a solution, a quick has one. A straight style clue can be as long as you like, but solving, say,
posted by zamboni at 2:56 AM on December 27, 2023 [6 favorites]
A UK style cryptic offers two paths to a solution, a quick has one. A straight style clue can be as long as you like, but solving, say,
Novelist King who wrote "Caretakers" and "One on One"absolutely relies on shared experience- you either know the answer, or you don’t.
posted by zamboni at 2:56 AM on December 27, 2023 [6 favorites]
I’d encourage folks to read the article before expanding further on their thoughts about crosswords and inclusiveness.
posted by zamboni at 3:05 AM on December 27, 2023 [17 favorites]
posted by zamboni at 3:05 AM on December 27, 2023 [17 favorites]
A UK style cryptic offers two paths to a solution
But one of them is highly dependent on knowing the rules for them, and the rules don't make much sense to me. And the other could be based on any word in the clue.
“noodling” indicates that we should rearrange the letters of “ragtime,”
It does no such fucking thing. "Noodling" in no way states or implies anything to do with rearrangement. Do you noodle the furniture in the living room? Do you noodle the seating arrangements for your upcoming wedding?
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 4:00 AM on December 27, 2023 [2 favorites]
But one of them is highly dependent on knowing the rules for them, and the rules don't make much sense to me. And the other could be based on any word in the clue.
“noodling” indicates that we should rearrange the letters of “ragtime,”
It does no such fucking thing. "Noodling" in no way states or implies anything to do with rearrangement. Do you noodle the furniture in the living room? Do you noodle the seating arrangements for your upcoming wedding?
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 4:00 AM on December 27, 2023 [2 favorites]
Much better article than its click bait title suggests. It's a classically wry New Yorker piece.
posted by lalochezia at 4:20 AM on December 27, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by lalochezia at 4:20 AM on December 27, 2023 [3 favorites]
"Will Shortz in particular is known for rewriting up to ninety per cent of a submission’s clues. "
God created clue in his own image! Time for Shortz to stand aside and make room for other mind-tangles for NYT punters to explore.
But no dog in that fight, me: I'm Team Cryptic, the rudiments of whose conventions I learned literally at my mother's knee in middle-class, white, educated, 60s England. Success is just a question of training and repetititition: until the exercise gets to be same-old same-old boring.
As it's still Christmas, here's one I made earlier - not cryptic, just obscure.
posted by BobTheScientist at 4:59 AM on December 27, 2023 [3 favorites]
God created clue in his own image! Time for Shortz to stand aside and make room for other mind-tangles for NYT punters to explore.
But no dog in that fight, me: I'm Team Cryptic, the rudiments of whose conventions I learned literally at my mother's knee in middle-class, white, educated, 60s England. Success is just a question of training and repetititition: until the exercise gets to be same-old same-old boring.
As it's still Christmas, here's one I made earlier - not cryptic, just obscure.
posted by BobTheScientist at 4:59 AM on December 27, 2023 [3 favorites]
I double underscore hate cryptic crosswords, their self-puffing pomposity, their obscure to death rules, their cleverer-than-thou attitude. So British. Give me straight up hard crosswords like Merle Reagle used to make. As obscure as you want, and keep the clues straight.
BTW if you're not enjoying Crosshare you might love it.
posted by seanmpuckett at 5:24 AM on December 27, 2023 [6 favorites]
BTW if you're not enjoying Crosshare you might love it.
posted by seanmpuckett at 5:24 AM on December 27, 2023 [6 favorites]
What’s lovely about the sentiment in this piece is that, as noted in the closing paragraph, it’s achievable, small step by small step. American crosswords do have a distinct language built of convenient letter combinations, primarily, and their interest comes almost entirely from the cluing.
Small changes in cluing can make a big difference in how we perceive the words, their context, their meaning.
The USA Today crossword is breezy — NYT Monday or Tuesday level — but features fresh cluing, new trivia. It’s a puzzle that’s, lately, made an effort. It still aims at an American audience, but is certainly less concerned with pandering to elbow-patched professors and more with reflecting America As She Is Spoke.
This article is really great. Read it instead of writing some asinine hot take about crosswords.
posted by uncleozzy at 5:38 AM on December 27, 2023 [7 favorites]
Small changes in cluing can make a big difference in how we perceive the words, their context, their meaning.
The USA Today crossword is breezy — NYT Monday or Tuesday level — but features fresh cluing, new trivia. It’s a puzzle that’s, lately, made an effort. It still aims at an American audience, but is certainly less concerned with pandering to elbow-patched professors and more with reflecting America As She Is Spoke.
This article is really great. Read it instead of writing some asinine hot take about crosswords.
posted by uncleozzy at 5:38 AM on December 27, 2023 [7 favorites]
Absolutely loved this article, glad it’s here and I encourage everyone to read it!
posted by ellieBOA at 5:39 AM on December 27, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by ellieBOA at 5:39 AM on December 27, 2023 [2 favorites]
Agreed about the article being much more interesting than its title.
It took me a long time to get into crosswords specifically because of the shared-culture aspect. When I was twenty and solving crossword puzzles, I would get totally derailed by clues about movies and famous people. This was partly because I didn't pay much attention to either, but also because the selection of movies and famous people extended seamlessly back before my time, into the 1970s and the 1950s. Now that I'm in my mid-forties, the "old" movies in crossword clues are things that came out just yesterday, like The Matrix or Fargo. I think a big part of this is that the crossword authors are now my age. Just last night I was chatting with my mother about crosswords, and she complained that she never knows the famous people if they are "anyone new."
The "inclusivity" in the article has a lot to do with the puzzle-writing habit of grabbing words from another culture for their vowel content, and clues for them being written by people who don't know their context for an audience of solvers who also don't really know their context:
The UK-style cryptic clues ["Song goes dry for a ruined Dean. Answer: Serenade"; "words like LOOKING, which they can decompose into slippery cluable units (LOO + KING; an anagram of OK LINGO)"] are a language that I don't speak. This is at least partly because anagrams are very foreign to how I process language, and I am terrible at anagram puzzles. I guess the NYT-style themed puzzles sometimes have a cryptic-style clue as their theme, such as the "G AND H I" puzzle which was published on Gandhi's 150th birthday. But it's a cryptic clue that you can work towards by solving a grid full of normal clues. Occasionally there is useful trivia. Frequently there are groan-inducing puns. That's much more my speed.
posted by fantabulous timewaster at 5:44 AM on December 27, 2023 [7 favorites]
It took me a long time to get into crosswords specifically because of the shared-culture aspect. When I was twenty and solving crossword puzzles, I would get totally derailed by clues about movies and famous people. This was partly because I didn't pay much attention to either, but also because the selection of movies and famous people extended seamlessly back before my time, into the 1970s and the 1950s. Now that I'm in my mid-forties, the "old" movies in crossword clues are things that came out just yesterday, like The Matrix or Fargo. I think a big part of this is that the crossword authors are now my age. Just last night I was chatting with my mother about crosswords, and she complained that she never knows the famous people if they are "anyone new."
The "inclusivity" in the article has a lot to do with the puzzle-writing habit of grabbing words from another culture for their vowel content, and clues for them being written by people who don't know their context for an audience of solvers who also don't really know their context:
Ghogre recalls the sense of defamiliarization he felt when, say, seeing the clue “Unstitched garment” for SARI: “un-stitched” appears in the first sentence of the “Sari” Wikipedia page, but he says it’s a feature of the item that no Indian national would notice. In his 2012 A.C.P.T. letter, otherwise a friendly salvo, Ghogre mentions that American puzzles offer a narrow aperture through which to view Indian culture, citing the “usual suspects” of NAAN, RAJA, RANI, SARI, DELHI, SITAR, RAVI, NEHRU, and so on. It felt flattening, doubly so when clues had inaccuracies, as if the words were tchotchkes bought by the cosmopolitan solver and deposited on the mantelpiece of the grid.I think I started to get a sense of this a few years ago. from an earlier discussion here on Metafilter about the careless disregard crossword authors show for meaningful diacritical marks. One example is a clue like "A year abroad?" to the get solver to write ANO, which is actually incorrect. The Spanish sentence "Mi papá tiene 47 años" means "My dad is 47 years old," while the superficially similar "Mi papa tiene 47 anos" means "My potato has 47 buttholes." [It's kind of tough to get Google Translate to admit a definition for "ano"; that tool thinks you are almost certainly talking about years rather than about anuses.] Since that was pointed out to me, I've seen a few crosswords where the "ñ" is the same letter in both crossing clues, e.g. by crossing AÑO with JALAPEÑO. But only a few.
The UK-style cryptic clues ["Song goes dry for a ruined Dean. Answer: Serenade"; "words like LOOKING, which they can decompose into slippery cluable units (LOO + KING; an anagram of OK LINGO)"] are a language that I don't speak. This is at least partly because anagrams are very foreign to how I process language, and I am terrible at anagram puzzles. I guess the NYT-style themed puzzles sometimes have a cryptic-style clue as their theme, such as the "G AND H I" puzzle which was published on Gandhi's 150th birthday. But it's a cryptic clue that you can work towards by solving a grid full of normal clues. Occasionally there is useful trivia. Frequently there are groan-inducing puns. That's much more my speed.
posted by fantabulous timewaster at 5:44 AM on December 27, 2023 [7 favorites]
On the advice of AskMeFi I've been a subscriber of AVCX Crowsswords for a few years now and love it. One thing that's quite notable about their puzzles is their language and culture inclusivity.
After doing them for a while and coming back to an NYT puzzle you realize just how heavily the New York Times leans on French and not other languages. I mean, I get it in that French words tend to have a lot of vowels so probably fit into puzzles well, but it also has a decided whiff of pomposity.
posted by mcstayinskool at 6:00 AM on December 27, 2023 [3 favorites]
After doing them for a while and coming back to an NYT puzzle you realize just how heavily the New York Times leans on French and not other languages. I mean, I get it in that French words tend to have a lot of vowels so probably fit into puzzles well, but it also has a decided whiff of pomposity.
posted by mcstayinskool at 6:00 AM on December 27, 2023 [3 favorites]
Good for Ghogre! I'm glad for anything that washes away the...the fixity of the crossword mindset. I'm sure Eero Saarinen was a very nice and important person, but his legacy as a crossword clue urges one to toss him into the dustbin of history. I don't know anything about 1950s baseball and I refuse to memorize Oscar winners. Something must change! I do like the implication of the article--hidden deeply, you have to read between the lines--that Will Shortz (no stranger to crossword controversy) is the secret villain here, "rewriting up to ninety per cent of a submission’s clues." (And I have to agree with seanmpuckett on Merl Reagle!)
posted by mittens at 6:29 AM on December 27, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by mittens at 6:29 AM on December 27, 2023 [2 favorites]
That's a very interesting article, and like others I'm grateful it didn't dwell on the headline too much.
The headline did get a good laugh out of me though. I do old NYT puzzles for recreation and not only are they American, they are a very small slice of demographic and time window of American. The pop culture questions alone set the tone: Anyone remember who played Renee on Ally McBeal?
I've got about as much chance knowing that as I do who played Dr Shashank Gupta on Sanjivani.
Asking for crosswords to be more inclusive is a lot like asking Trivia Pursuit to be more inclusive. If ever there was a form that called out for specific puzzles for specific cultural backgrounds, crosswords are it.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 6:31 AM on December 27, 2023 [5 favorites]
The headline did get a good laugh out of me though. I do old NYT puzzles for recreation and not only are they American, they are a very small slice of demographic and time window of American. The pop culture questions alone set the tone: Anyone remember who played Renee on Ally McBeal?
I've got about as much chance knowing that as I do who played Dr Shashank Gupta on Sanjivani.
Asking for crosswords to be more inclusive is a lot like asking Trivia Pursuit to be more inclusive. If ever there was a form that called out for specific puzzles for specific cultural backgrounds, crosswords are it.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 6:31 AM on December 27, 2023 [5 favorites]
I've got about as much chance knowing that as I do who played Dr Shashank Gupta on Sanjivani.
the Shashank Recollection!
posted by chavenet at 6:43 AM on December 27, 2023 [4 favorites]
the Shashank Recollection!
posted by chavenet at 6:43 AM on December 27, 2023 [4 favorites]
I used to play Black Crossword, a daily mini puzzle with clues that emphasize black (mostly American) culture. It got cut from my list when I tried to cut back my daily word games to a more manageable number, but it's a well-done small puzzle and it is fun. I often found myself unable to solve the clues because they relied on cultural knowledge that I didn't have, but that was rather the point -- I would eventually give up and look things up and hopefully learn something new.
posted by jacquilynne at 6:52 AM on December 27, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by jacquilynne at 6:52 AM on December 27, 2023 [6 favorites]
Get-Rich-Quick Scheme #37634B:
Legally change your name to Aeiouy and live off the riches of crossword fame till the end of your days.
posted by fairmettle at 7:20 AM on December 27, 2023 [5 favorites]
Legally change your name to Aeiouy and live off the riches of crossword fame till the end of your days.
posted by fairmettle at 7:20 AM on December 27, 2023 [5 favorites]
Legally change your name to Aeiouy and live off the riches of crossword fame till the end of your days.
I've already decided that if I ever form a public organization the acronym will be 3-6 letters, start with A, and be at least half vowels.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 7:48 AM on December 27, 2023 [3 favorites]
I've already decided that if I ever form a public organization the acronym will be 3-6 letters, start with A, and be at least half vowels.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 7:48 AM on December 27, 2023 [3 favorites]
If nothing else, for someone who's learning English as a second language doing crossword puzzles is a great way to get accustomed to English's um, unique approach to spelling and openness to including foreign words.
posted by tommasz at 7:51 AM on December 27, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by tommasz at 7:51 AM on December 27, 2023 [2 favorites]
What a terrific essay. The way immigration and borders (specifically fences) come into play throughout is beautifully done.
Tressie McMillan Cottom had a twitter thread last year about NYT crossword puzzles' cultural assumptions: "all crosswords do is demonstrate that I know nothing about opera or sailing." The thread broadened into interesting recommendations for low-culture / more diverse crosswords, and I'll try to find that link to post here. USA Today got some love there for having a less elitist crossword, IIRC. (I'm not on twitter anymore & I'm having trouble finding that thread... if any other fans of Dr. McMillan Cottom are here, it was from July 2022.)
posted by miles per flower at 8:42 AM on December 27, 2023 [1 favorite]
Tressie McMillan Cottom had a twitter thread last year about NYT crossword puzzles' cultural assumptions: "all crosswords do is demonstrate that I know nothing about opera or sailing." The thread broadened into interesting recommendations for low-culture / more diverse crosswords, and I'll try to find that link to post here. USA Today got some love there for having a less elitist crossword, IIRC. (I'm not on twitter anymore & I'm having trouble finding that thread... if any other fans of Dr. McMillan Cottom are here, it was from July 2022.)
posted by miles per flower at 8:42 AM on December 27, 2023 [1 favorite]
If nothing else, for someone who's learning English as a second language doing crossword puzzles is a great way to get accustomed to English's um, unique approach to spelling and openness to including foreign words."
Also even the simpler ones include common cultural trivia worth knowing. For example I've recently started doing Spanish crosswords and this morning I learned the "Spanish municipality famous for its Polvorones." I asked around and it's one of those baseline things people just know.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 8:54 AM on December 27, 2023 [2 favorites]
Also even the simpler ones include common cultural trivia worth knowing. For example I've recently started doing Spanish crosswords and this morning I learned the "Spanish municipality famous for its Polvorones." I asked around and it's one of those baseline things people just know.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 8:54 AM on December 27, 2023 [2 favorites]
I would be interested in a list of good sources for foreign-language crosswords. I have trouble looking for such things because I'm not yet good enough in any of my target languages. Tell Me No Lies (he asked eponysterically), which Spanish crosswords have you been solving?
posted by fantabulous timewaster at 10:07 AM on December 27, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by fantabulous timewaster at 10:07 AM on December 27, 2023 [1 favorite]
I’m British and never got cryptic crosswords! My mum loves them but my brain doesn’t work that way.
posted by ellieBOA at 10:07 AM on December 27, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by ellieBOA at 10:07 AM on December 27, 2023 [2 favorites]
Lately, I've been doing only the USA Today and Puzzmo mini crosswords and they're very diverse and delightful, and I recommend them to any American crossword fans.
I've been doing a handful of the NYT crosswords over the holiday and I really wish they weren't the gold standard for American crosswords. I've been told that my preferences are too easy, but honestly, I don't think the NYT ones are that good. The usual complaint is about the outdated cluing, but doing multiple in a day really shows off how often they rely on the same words over and over again, annoyingly ambiguous clues, and random words strung together. The difficulty isn't really achieved in a satisfying way.
posted by Pitachu at 10:23 AM on December 27, 2023 [3 favorites]
I've been doing a handful of the NYT crosswords over the holiday and I really wish they weren't the gold standard for American crosswords. I've been told that my preferences are too easy, but honestly, I don't think the NYT ones are that good. The usual complaint is about the outdated cluing, but doing multiple in a day really shows off how often they rely on the same words over and over again, annoyingly ambiguous clues, and random words strung together. The difficulty isn't really achieved in a satisfying way.
posted by Pitachu at 10:23 AM on December 27, 2023 [3 favorites]
Here's a bit of trivia from the Wikipedia article on the NYT crossword that I hadn’t seen before:
The article also includes a timeline of editors:
posted by jamjam at 11:09 AM on December 27, 2023 [1 favorite]
The first puzzle ran on Sunday, February 15, 1942. The motivating impulse for the Times to finally run the puzzle (which took over 20 years even though its publisher, Arthur Hays Sulzberger, was a longtime crossword fan) appears to have been the bombing of Pearl Harbor; in a memo dated December 18, 1941, an editor conceded that the puzzle deserved space in the paper, considering what was happening elsewhere in the world and that readers might need something to occupy themselves during blackouts.[10] The puzzle proved popular, and Sulzberger himself authored a Times puzzle before the year was out.[10]"During blackouts"? Crosswords by flickering candlelight, then?
The article also includes a timeline of editors:
There have been four editors of the puzzle: Margaret Farrar from the puzzle's inception until 1969; Will Weng, former head of the Times' metropolitan copy desk, until 1977; Eugene T. Maleska until his death in 1993; and the current editor, Will Shortz.I did most of my solving during the Maleska years. I could hardly believe the Time's poor judgement in choosing Shortz as his successor. I’d been listening to his really dismal puzzle segment on NPR's Sunday morning show for a quite awhile by then, and knew he had no real appreciation for the written or spoken word.
posted by jamjam at 11:09 AM on December 27, 2023 [1 favorite]
I would be interested in a list of good sources for foreign-language crosswords. I have trouble looking for such things because I'm not yet good enough in any of my target languages. Tell Me No Lies (he asked eponysterically), which Spanish crosswords have you been solving?
Quite honestly I'm not qualified to judge how good it is, but I've been using:
https://isbooth.com/crossday.php?lg=es
I make heavy use of Google Translate and Google in general to find things, but as time goes by I'm understanding more.
isbooth is unfortunately a Spanish Crossword -- I've been looking for a good daily Mexican one.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 11:25 AM on December 27, 2023 [3 favorites]
Quite honestly I'm not qualified to judge how good it is, but I've been using:
https://isbooth.com/crossday.php?lg=es
I make heavy use of Google Translate and Google in general to find things, but as time goes by I'm understanding more.
isbooth is unfortunately a Spanish Crossword -- I've been looking for a good daily Mexican one.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 11:25 AM on December 27, 2023 [3 favorites]
It does no such fucking thing. "Noodling" in no way states or implies anything to do with rearrangement.
I’m afraid it does, in the improvising/fiddling sense.
OED:
The ambiguity in cryptic crosswords is frontloaded- once you decipher the clue, the answer is clear. For a quick, the answer is singular (but possibly unattainable), or remains ambiguous, with multiple answers until you solve more of the grid. For older NYTs, you also have to know conventions and crossword-ese, e.g. WORKER might be ANT or ESNE.
Both cryptic and straight have their conventions and assumptions. We can like different things, and that’s OK!
posted by zamboni at 12:56 PM on December 27, 2023 [6 favorites]
I’m afraid it does, in the improvising/fiddling sense.
OED:
2. U.S. colloquial.dictionary.com:
2.a.1942–intransitive. To think, esp. to reflect or muse in an unproductive or undirected way; to act light-heartedly (also with about, around); (also) to experiment in an informal, tentative manner.
Informal.(Anything involving intoxication, confusion, or experimentation can be an anagram indicator in cryptic crosswords.)
to play; toy:
to noodle with numbers as a hobby.
to improvise, experiment, or think creatively:
verb (used with object),noo·dled, noo·dling.
Informal.
to manipulate or tamper with:
to make or devise freely as an exercise or experiment (sometimes followed by up):
Verb Phrases
noodle around, Informal. to play, experiment, or improvise.
The ambiguity in cryptic crosswords is frontloaded- once you decipher the clue, the answer is clear. For a quick, the answer is singular (but possibly unattainable), or remains ambiguous, with multiple answers until you solve more of the grid. For older NYTs, you also have to know conventions and crossword-ese, e.g. WORKER might be ANT or ESNE.
Both cryptic and straight have their conventions and assumptions. We can like different things, and that’s OK!
posted by zamboni at 12:56 PM on December 27, 2023 [6 favorites]
"During blackouts"? Crosswords by flickering candlelight, then?
Blackouts in the wartime sense:
posted by zamboni at 1:40 PM on December 27, 2023 [3 favorites]
Blackouts in the wartime sense:
the practice of collectively minimizing outdoor light, including upwardly directed (or reflected) light. This was done in the 20th century to prevent crews of enemy aircraft from being able to identify their targets by sight, such as during the London Blitz of 1940.You could have the lights on as long as none could escape outside. Since you were stuck inside, why not do a nice crossword?
posted by zamboni at 1:40 PM on December 27, 2023 [3 favorites]
Immigration, crosswords, AND stage magic (briefly): so many of my interests, all at once!
Cryptics made sense to me once I saw them as math equations. Certain clue words mean certain things even if doesn't match day to day parlance - just like how "-" in a math equation always means minus/negative even though in daily life it could also be a dash or a bullet point. "Noodling" is the cryptic math term for "anagram".
That being said, yes the answers can often rely on Americanisms/Britishisms that me, a resident of neither country, can really relate to. And it's like the same things every time too (soooo many OREOS).
There are efforts amongst constructors nowadays to have more diverse clue sets, such as the Expanded Crossword Name Database.
posted by creatrixtiara at 5:38 PM on December 27, 2023 [2 favorites]
Cryptics made sense to me once I saw them as math equations. Certain clue words mean certain things even if doesn't match day to day parlance - just like how "-" in a math equation always means minus/negative even though in daily life it could also be a dash or a bullet point. "Noodling" is the cryptic math term for "anagram".
That being said, yes the answers can often rely on Americanisms/Britishisms that me, a resident of neither country, can really relate to. And it's like the same things every time too (soooo many OREOS).
There are efforts amongst constructors nowadays to have more diverse clue sets, such as the Expanded Crossword Name Database.
posted by creatrixtiara at 5:38 PM on December 27, 2023 [2 favorites]
The story about Mangesh Ghogre is interesting, and makes me wish the New Yorker had a real profile writer write a real profile about him.
The rest of the article feels so padded, I truly don't understand why it was published, and I was shocked to see it was excerpted from a longer book. What do Dead Kennedys lyrics, or Sondheim and Auden's thoughts on the Will Weng era NYT puzzles have to do with anything, much less the alleged cultural biases of crosswords in 2023?
The part about Auden is particularly ridiculous -- because the author summarizes it as "[i]n Auden’s image of America, crosswords, culture, and immigration are inextricable", but the article he's extrapolating from doesn't make any such connection at all.
posted by Joey Carrots at 6:03 PM on December 27, 2023 [2 favorites]
The rest of the article feels so padded, I truly don't understand why it was published, and I was shocked to see it was excerpted from a longer book. What do Dead Kennedys lyrics, or Sondheim and Auden's thoughts on the Will Weng era NYT puzzles have to do with anything, much less the alleged cultural biases of crosswords in 2023?
The part about Auden is particularly ridiculous -- because the author summarizes it as "[i]n Auden’s image of America, crosswords, culture, and immigration are inextricable", but the article he's extrapolating from doesn't make any such connection at all.
posted by Joey Carrots at 6:03 PM on December 27, 2023 [2 favorites]
It is possible that someone who already is familiar with Will Weng is not the primary target audience of an article that uses Ghogre as a framing device to airily survey the past and present of American crosswords. I’ll reserve judgement on Natan Last’s book (apparently titled The Electric Grid) until it’s published.
posted by zamboni at 6:59 PM on December 27, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by zamboni at 6:59 PM on December 27, 2023 [2 favorites]
Growing up, my prototype for “ proper crossword” was based on The Age Quick Crossword, and so I find the US one feels forced with too many abbreviations and weird words used to fill the dense grid. I did get into their cryptic crosswords for a while and I think that part of the fun there is that the clues can be like a little joke to unravel: if you like the sense of humor of the crossword-setter, figuring out the jokes can be really funny! The UK one baffle me though as I don’t get enough of their references.
posted by pulposus at 7:29 PM on December 27, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by pulposus at 7:29 PM on December 27, 2023 [1 favorite]
It is possible that someone who already is familiar with Will Weng is not the primary target audience of an article that uses Ghogre as a framing device to airily survey the past and present of American crosswords.
But the "survey" is (much) less informative than just reading Wikipedia. And Wikipedia has things like section headings and links you can follow, instead of reading like a bunch of diary entries catenated together.
posted by Joey Carrots at 8:52 PM on December 27, 2023 [1 favorite]
But the "survey" is (much) less informative than just reading Wikipedia. And Wikipedia has things like section headings and links you can follow, instead of reading like a bunch of diary entries catenated together.
posted by Joey Carrots at 8:52 PM on December 27, 2023 [1 favorite]
It's already a fairly long thread and I've not read all of it (or TFA yet, for that matter), but:
A UK style cryptic offers two paths to a solution, a quick has one.
That is untrue! Cryptics remove one of the key virtues of traditional crossword puzzles in favor of their rules and wordplay: in a standard, non-cryptic puzzle, every letter is checked. That makes it much harder to build a complete grid for an American-style puzzle, but is an essential element, because every letter, if you don't know it going one way, you have the chance of filling that square going the other.
I am not going to say that makes regular crosswords better, but it does make them different, and to my eyes, of a more elegant design.
posted by JHarris at 10:03 PM on December 27, 2023 [1 favorite]
A UK style cryptic offers two paths to a solution, a quick has one.
That is untrue! Cryptics remove one of the key virtues of traditional crossword puzzles in favor of their rules and wordplay: in a standard, non-cryptic puzzle, every letter is checked. That makes it much harder to build a complete grid for an American-style puzzle, but is an essential element, because every letter, if you don't know it going one way, you have the chance of filling that square going the other.
I am not going to say that makes regular crosswords better, but it does make them different, and to my eyes, of a more elegant design.
posted by JHarris at 10:03 PM on December 27, 2023 [1 favorite]
And it's like the same things every time too (soooo many OREOS).
Every time OREO is clued in a puzzle, the Cookie Monster eats a Polish Angel Wing.
posted by JHarris at 10:12 PM on December 27, 2023 [2 favorites]
Every time OREO is clued in a puzzle, the Cookie Monster eats a Polish Angel Wing.
posted by JHarris at 10:12 PM on December 27, 2023 [2 favorites]
in a standard, non-cryptic puzzle, every letter is checked.
This is only true for US-style quicks, and is part of what leads to contorted fill like OREO, ESSE, ASTA etc by lesser compilers. I’d rather have more black squares.
posted by zamboni at 10:22 PM on December 27, 2023 [3 favorites]
This is only true for US-style quicks, and is part of what leads to contorted fill like OREO, ESSE, ASTA etc by lesser compilers. I’d rather have more black squares.
posted by zamboni at 10:22 PM on December 27, 2023 [3 favorites]
(I was referring to cluing, but yes, your point is taken.)
posted by zamboni at 10:26 PM on December 27, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by zamboni at 10:26 PM on December 27, 2023 [1 favorite]
Tortured fill is a problem, but I think it's not nearly as bad as losing this essential aspect of US crossword construction. Another contributing factor of that is the rise of computer construction aids like Crossword Compiler (commercial and well regarded) or Qxw (open source, probably best for hobbyists), which are now an important part of the industry if just because selling a puzzle doesn't pay very well these days, so you have to have an aid or cheat in some way to reduce the time outlay.
posted by JHarris at 2:45 AM on December 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by JHarris at 2:45 AM on December 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
this essential aspect of US crossword construction
Whereas grinding out the crosses of an unknown section of a US-style puzzle sometimes feels like sudoku busy-work to me. (If you like sudoku, all the more power to you.)
posted by zamboni at 3:31 AM on December 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
Whereas grinding out the crosses of an unknown section of a US-style puzzle sometimes feels like sudoku busy-work to me. (If you like sudoku, all the more power to you.)
posted by zamboni at 3:31 AM on December 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
Every time OREO is clued in a puzzle, the Cookie Monster eats a Polish Angel Wing.
Today had the much-less-defensible, truly hideous "OREOOS", that is to say, "Oreo-Os" which is I guess a cereal with Oreo branding? You know your puzzle's floundering when you have to reach for that one.
posted by Daily Alice at 4:21 AM on December 28, 2023 [5 favorites]
Today had the much-less-defensible, truly hideous "OREOOS", that is to say, "Oreo-Os" which is I guess a cereal with Oreo branding? You know your puzzle's floundering when you have to reach for that one.
posted by Daily Alice at 4:21 AM on December 28, 2023 [5 favorites]
Every time OREO is clued in a puzzle, the Cookie Monster eats a Polish Angel Wing.
And every time “aloe” shows up, someone breathes. I’m assuming that that’s the connection because that’s how often it shows up.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 5:34 AM on December 28, 2023 [3 favorites]
And every time “aloe” shows up, someone breathes. I’m assuming that that’s the connection because that’s how often it shows up.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 5:34 AM on December 28, 2023 [3 favorites]
It is actually possible to clue fill so that it doesn't suck. However if you cross two obscure names you are getting a slap.
posted by seanmpuckett at 5:35 AM on December 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by seanmpuckett at 5:35 AM on December 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
Daily Alice, we saw that one too. Every time OREO appears in a puzzle we make a show of how upset we are. "Oh, NO," we'll cry in dismay, and then wearily enter the blighted letters, that benighted sandwich cookie, the ill-favored product of Nabisco.
Something I've noticed about NYT puzzles is some answers will appear in multiple puzzles within a week or two, then not be seen for a long time or even never again, like an in-joke going around the constructor community.
posted by JHarris at 6:08 AM on December 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
Something I've noticed about NYT puzzles is some answers will appear in multiple puzzles within a week or two, then not be seen for a long time or even never again, like an in-joke going around the constructor community.
posted by JHarris at 6:08 AM on December 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
I do like the implication of the article--hidden deeply, you have to read between the lines--that Will Shortz (no stranger to crossword controversy) is the secret villain here, "rewriting up to ninety per cent of a submission’s clues."
I suspect you're being facetious here -- but just FYI, Will Shortz and his assistants rewrite so many of the clues because he accepts manuscripts based on the grid/theme, even if the clues are bad. For details, check out this article and ctrl-f for "a lot of work".
posted by Joey Carrots at 6:32 AM on December 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
I suspect you're being facetious here -- but just FYI, Will Shortz and his assistants rewrite so many of the clues because he accepts manuscripts based on the grid/theme, even if the clues are bad. For details, check out this article and ctrl-f for "a lot of work".
posted by Joey Carrots at 6:32 AM on December 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
Something I've noticed about NYT puzzles is some answers will appear in multiple puzzles within a week or two, then not be seen for a long time or even never again, like an in-joke going around the constructor community.
I wonder if there's any feedback system in place with online puzzles. How many people managed to solve the whole puzzle, what clues people got hung up on, etc.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 6:33 AM on December 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
I wonder if there's any feedback system in place with online puzzles. How many people managed to solve the whole puzzle, what clues people got hung up on, etc.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 6:33 AM on December 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
If you publish your puzzle on Crosshare you get a lot of stats about solves including granularity to the cell.
posted by seanmpuckett at 7:14 AM on December 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by seanmpuckett at 7:14 AM on December 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
Every time OREO is clued in a puzzle, the Cookie Monster eats a Polish Angel Wing.
Is OREO in today’s #NYTXW? [nitter]
posted by chavenet at 9:32 AM on December 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
Is OREO in today’s #NYTXW? [nitter]
posted by chavenet at 9:32 AM on December 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
And every time “aloe” shows up, someone breathes. I’m assuming that that’s the connection because that’s how often it shows up.
Calling it: it's a matter of time until we get a hyper-defensive puzzle with a clue that reads something like: "14D: It's ALOE. We're just telling you now, this one's ALOE, and we're sick of finding new clever ways to indicate that."
posted by JHarris at 11:33 AM on December 28, 2023 [3 favorites]
Calling it: it's a matter of time until we get a hyper-defensive puzzle with a clue that reads something like: "14D: It's ALOE. We're just telling you now, this one's ALOE, and we're sick of finding new clever ways to indicate that."
posted by JHarris at 11:33 AM on December 28, 2023 [3 favorites]
I feel like it was always "jai alai" when I were a lass. Jai alai, which I knew only from crosswords and Professor Calculus.
posted by The corpse in the library at 12:25 PM on December 28, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by The corpse in the library at 12:25 PM on December 28, 2023 [3 favorites]
This is only true for US-style quicks, and is part of what leads to contorted fill like OREO, ESSE, ASTA etc by lesser compilers. I’d rather have more black squares.
Fairly off-topic, but Oreo is a household name, OREO is not "contorted" fill at all.
posted by Joey Carrots at 5:08 PM on December 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
Fairly off-topic, but Oreo is a household name, OREO is not "contorted" fill at all.
posted by Joey Carrots at 5:08 PM on December 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
Like Ghogre, I also took up crossword puzzles as a student to improve my English, so I appreciate the framing of this article. I remember the first time I realized that it's a puzzle, not just a vocabulary test when 'young oak' yielded 'acorn'.
posted by of strange foe at 7:36 PM on December 28, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by of strange foe at 7:36 PM on December 28, 2023 [3 favorites]
Fairly off-topic, but Oreo is a household name, OREO is not "contorted" fill at all.
It may be a bit of a misstatement, but it's not far off. There's a small number of words that appear in crosswords in excess of their prevalence in usage, and OREO, ALOE and JAIALAI are among them. There's also ASEA, although I've not seen it much recently. A better example of tortured fills might be short answers made of multiple very short words (ONTO, ASTO, ISIT, ISEE, METOO, etc).
They're prominent because it's really hard to fill a grid with words that interlock everywhere without resorting to them, and in fact, even with their use. In this way ATARI and SEGA are gifts from one game industry to another. But I think the difficulty in construction is part of what makes US-style crosswords interesting, at least the constructor had to solve their own little puzzle before it could be sold and published.
posted by JHarris at 1:03 AM on December 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
It may be a bit of a misstatement, but it's not far off. There's a small number of words that appear in crosswords in excess of their prevalence in usage, and OREO, ALOE and JAIALAI are among them. There's also ASEA, although I've not seen it much recently. A better example of tortured fills might be short answers made of multiple very short words (ONTO, ASTO, ISIT, ISEE, METOO, etc).
They're prominent because it's really hard to fill a grid with words that interlock everywhere without resorting to them, and in fact, even with their use. In this way ATARI and SEGA are gifts from one game industry to another. But I think the difficulty in construction is part of what makes US-style crosswords interesting, at least the constructor had to solve their own little puzzle before it could be sold and published.
posted by JHarris at 1:03 AM on December 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
Fairly off-topic, but Oreo is a household name, OREO is not "contorted" fill at all.
It may be a bit of a misstatement, but it's not far off. There's a small number of words that appear in crosswords in excess of their prevalence in usage, and OREO, ALOE and JAIALAI are among them.
It's a total misstatement. Maybe there's something to complain about wrt to common words that are even more common in crosswords (I'm not really convinced there is), but they aren't contortions.
posted by Joey Carrots at 8:05 AM on December 29, 2023
It may be a bit of a misstatement, but it's not far off. There's a small number of words that appear in crosswords in excess of their prevalence in usage, and OREO, ALOE and JAIALAI are among them.
It's a total misstatement. Maybe there's something to complain about wrt to common words that are even more common in crosswords (I'm not really convinced there is), but they aren't contortions.
posted by Joey Carrots at 8:05 AM on December 29, 2023
Reminder: Always use words precisely in a thread that almost by definition is full of word geeks.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 10:57 AM on December 29, 2023
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 10:57 AM on December 29, 2023
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My second thought is that you definitely could use this stuff for bad purposes. What if, to join the golf club, you had to complete a crossword full of Anglo shibboleths? But if we’re just talking about cruciverbalism, that’s a fresh Hell we haven’t entered… I think?
posted by Phanx at 1:14 AM on December 27, 2023 [5 favorites]