another kind of spanglish

June 18, 2023 12:10 PM

Linguists have identified a new English dialect that’s emerging in South Florida "“We got down from the car and went inside.” “I made the line to pay for groceries.”“He made a party to celebrate his son’s birthday.” These phrases might sound off to the ears of most English-speaking Americans. In Miami, however, they’ve become part of the local parlance."[via]
posted by dhruva (42 comments total)

This is cool. Just confirmed several of these with my spouse, who grew up in Miami but hasn't lived there long term in more than 25 years.
posted by hydropsyche at 12:24 PM on June 18, 2023 [2 favorites]

This is pretty underwhelming to me, a New Mexico native, surrounded by people who've been intermingling Spanish and English for at least 170 years (after already having evolved into a distinct dialect of Spanish).

It's a super-weird article. I guess it's of some local interest, but as calques and emerging dialects are concerned, this is minor compared to older and more comprehensive English-Spanish intermingling elsewhere and particularly New Mexican Spanish.
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 12:27 PM on June 18, 2023 [11 favorites]

I'm Chilean, lived I the US as a child and later as an adult. I've always considered Spanglish as my native tongue.
All of this is to say that the examples quoted here read perfectly natural to me at first. I had to go back and read them again to understand what was special about them.
posted by signal at 12:39 PM on June 18, 2023 [7 favorites]

I've heard "got down from the car" before. Long ago, actually. And not in Florida. Here in Indiana.
posted by Thorzdad at 12:52 PM on June 18, 2023 [2 favorites]

Thanks -- fascinating subject. I grew up in Miami in the '70s and '80s, when this process was only beginning. I heard a lot of Spanglish, but it's evolved quite a bit since then, and the expressions mentioned in the article were mostly new to me.
posted by Artifice_Eternity at 1:01 PM on June 18, 2023 [2 favorites]

On the reverse side, in Chile it's now common to say "Hace sentido", a calque for "It makes sense", instead of the way it used to be said, "Tiene sentido", "It has sense". And people also say "Salvar" for "Save" in the sense of saving a computer file instead of "Guardar", which is the previous translation.
posted by signal at 1:11 PM on June 18, 2023 [13 favorites]

That use of 'making' happens in Yiddish-English too. You make a party, you make a blessing. Translation artifacts are fun.
posted by BlueNorther at 1:22 PM on June 18, 2023 [12 favorites]

I guess it's of some local interest, but as calques and emerging dialects are concerned, this is minor compared to older and more comprehensive English-Spanish intermingling elsewhere and particularly New Mexican Spanish.

This is a bit like saying that since King crabs evolved, it's not that interesting that another species is undergoing carcinisation. It's a different social situation, with different varieties of Spanish involved, along with, in the mix, other languages too (e.g., Haitian Creole). So there are going to be similarities with other Spanish-English contact varieties, but there will be differences. We also have the benefit of being able to carefully document it in real time, as opposed to trying to reconstruct what happened in the past.

Language contact and the resulting changes are never quite the same, and we learn something different each time it happens!
posted by damayanti at 1:38 PM on June 18, 2023 [30 favorites]

> On the reverse side, in Chile it's now common to say "Hace sentido", a calque for "It makes sense"

Ha, exactly the same in German - The calque "Sinn machen" (to make sense) is apparently OK now. I blame my absence.
posted by kleinsteradikaleminderheit at 1:42 PM on June 18, 2023 [8 favorites]

He made a party to celebrate his son’s birthday.

Heh. This line in particular reminds me of the New Orleans "Yat" accent. "Making groceries" instead of "grocery shopping."
posted by brundlefly at 1:54 PM on June 18, 2023 [8 favorites]

“Language contact and the resulting changes are never quite the same, and we learn something different each time it happens!”

You're entirely correct and I immediately felt a little bad about my comment after I wrote it. On its own terms it's very interesting for all the reasons you mention. The post phrasing and the article seemed to me to imply this was exceptional and I responded too emphatically to that. But I actually find this sort of thing always interesting! I should have made that clear.
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 1:59 PM on June 18, 2023 [18 favorites]

What's interesting to me is that Spanish, German, etc. are so relatively regular that imports are noticeable. Not to mention french, where they are regulated by law.

American English is such a katamari that you have to point things out for people to notice them. Otherwise they just slide right into common usage.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 2:10 PM on June 18, 2023 [6 favorites]

There was an NPR segment with the author of this article on this research as well. It's not as detailed on the variations they found between generations, so thanks for this article!

Also, despite my half assed attempts to improve my Spanish, if I heard the expression "get down from the car" being used, I would assume it evolved in response to the increased average size of automobiles we all have to clamber out of, and not even considered other possible sources of the construction. It's descriptively accurate, so good job Miamians.
posted by the primroses were over at 2:17 PM on June 18, 2023 [6 favorites]

”Not to mention french, where they are regulated by law.”

Well, they try.

While it's certainly the case that different languages import from other languages differently and some much more than others, I think that's mostly because of historical contingency and that it's a misconception to think that there's something inherent in English that makes this easier or more likely.

Native speakers of languages usually come up with some strong claims about how their native language is particularly good at this or that, but that's a conceit, and this idea that English is especially flexible and appropriating is an example of this chauvinism. All languages are equally expressive and all are equally likely to mutate from frequent contact with another language; how this plays out practically has everything to do with the particular power/influence differentials involved, not because languages differ in how mutable they are, inherently.

And while institions such as the Académie Française are an expression of a kind of social power that can affect language evolution, that power is insignificant compared to the many other social forces in play and is insufficient for the established aim — it's only really effective at the margins. Things like relative economic influence make much, much more of a difference. This is why we're talking about a dialect of Spanish and not a dialect of English.
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 2:28 PM on June 18, 2023 [3 favorites]

The research is about English expressions that make use of constructions from Spanish. It's about an English dialect influenced by Spanish:

As a part of my ongoing research with students and colleagues on the way English is spoken in Miami, I conducted a study with linguist Kristen D’Allessandro Merii to document Spanish-origin calques in the English spoken in South Florida.

Not to quibble with the rest of your point.
posted by the primroses were over at 2:34 PM on June 18, 2023 [1 favorite]

Ivan Fyodorovich: "This is why we're talking about a dialect of Spanish and not a dialect of English."

While I agree with all your points before this one, the article is about a dialect of English, not Spanish.
posted by signal at 2:35 PM on June 18, 2023

Jinx.
posted by signal at 2:35 PM on June 18, 2023 [1 favorite]

You guys are right, sorry. I'm so embarrassed!

I guess I want to know how much this has been adopted by non-hispanic anglophones relative to hispanic anglophones, in turn relative to hispanic hispanaphones.

Which I initially assumed was "not much", but after your corrections I've now recalled Canadian English phrases such as "open/close the light".
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 3:07 PM on June 18, 2023 [4 favorites]

A couple of years ago there was someone on Twitter who freaked out that a retail employee had said “five dollars with thirty cents,” but it is just another sort of literal translation from Spanish.
posted by jimw at 3:09 PM on June 18, 2023 [2 favorites]

and this idea that English is especially flexible and appropriating is an example of this chauvinism.

I understand the point you are making, but the large continuing influx of foreign language constructs into American English has little to do with the language other than it is already a notorious mess and people are used to that.

What is important is this map. The U.S. immigration statistics are staggering, and because the U.S.does not have an official language people bring their languages with them.

Just for example the Labor Compliance forms for San Jose, CA are available in Arabic, Chinese, English, Filipino, Hindi, Japanese, Korean, Persian, Portuguese, Russian, Spanish, and Vietnamese. Having lived there most of my life I can assure you that those are all really necessary. And because English is the common language it inherits a lot from all that ESL.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 3:21 PM on June 18, 2023 [5 favorites]

And then there were “phonetic calques,” or the translation of certain sounds.

"Thanks God,” a type of loan translation from “gracias a Dios,” is common in Miami. In this case, speakers analogize the “s” sound at the end of “gracias” and apply it to the English form.

I don't think this is phonetic at all (it's a very common error for Spanish speakers). "Gracias a Dios" translates literally to "Thanks to God". Spanish speakers with some experience in English probably know that they aren't supposed to say the "to" in English, but may not think that actually the English expression is quite different and they are instead saying "(I) thank God".
posted by ssg at 3:30 PM on June 18, 2023 [1 favorite]

Or perhaps it’s borrowing the kind of stage direction style of speech that’s become common on the internet. Not so much “I thank God” as “(thanks God)”, in the way we might type (checks notes) … checks notes?
posted by nickmark at 3:38 PM on June 18, 2023 [1 favorite]

“Make a party” is also a pretty common construction among older Jewish New Yorkers (and younger ones in Orthodox communities, I think). Presumably due to Yiddish or Hebrew grammar.
posted by uncleozzy at 3:58 PM on June 18, 2023

I remember a woman of Mexican descent I knew in Napa, CA. She was a second-generation Spanish speaker, and spoke what to my ears was ungrammatical Spanish, saying things like "ir para atrás a casa" for "go back home" (whereas in LatAm Spanish it's "volver a casa").
posted by signal at 4:08 PM on June 18, 2023 [2 favorites]

A similar thing happens in Québec, where you hear phrases such as:

Close /Open the lights
I passed the vacuum (and similarly) the plow passed
Take a decision

I know there are others... You will hear these from both English and French people.

And of course, "going to the dep."
posted by mephisjo at 4:11 PM on June 18, 2023 [3 favorites]

When I was an undergrad, I gave a ride to an acquaintance who was a Spanish exchange student (Uruguay? Argentina? Somewhere in SA, I don't remember) and as we approached a yellow light, he said 'Eat the light.' I just continued to slow down, and he continued in emphasis with 'Eat it! Eat the light!' When we reached our destination, we had a long, and fun, discussion on the different idiomatic constructions around traffic, including 'running a light' vs 'eating a light'.

When I was in France for my own exchange program, the US students, struggling to find the right term for many of our outings, combined a new verb for us 'se foutre' (roughly, 'to fuck') and the term for a cluster of grapes, grappe, into grappe se foutre, or, clusterfuck. We never found out if it was correct, nor did we really care.

Recently, I was translating a letter (in Latin) in the collection of St. Boniface's letters from a papal official, and was struck by some stylistic abnormalities - it seemed a bit, well, Greek, in some of its grammatical constructions; not wrong, just odd. I did some digging and found a couple of citations where scholars, mostly from the 19th century, had surmised that the writer of the letter was possibly educated in the East (Constantinople?), or was educated in Rome by the leftover Greek presence from the imports during the reign of Theoderic. I was just chuffed that what I thought I saw wasn't a complete fiction of my own brain.

Language interface, especially when it sits uncomfortably between style and grammar, is magical.
posted by eclectist at 4:16 PM on June 18, 2023 [9 favorites]

I have invented a few french idioms...

Despite my claiming that as they say in France...

"On ne se peut"

(One never knows), not sure there has been a big uptake in usage.
posted by Windopaene at 4:24 PM on June 18, 2023

I've heard "Thanks God" before from non-Spanish speakers as well (English was a third or fourth language to the folks I heard use "Thanks God" in English.

"Thank God" is just what English speakers have used, but who cares; language changes.

To my mind, it never sounded like a "mistake," and it made perfect sense. Considering, it's more correct to say Thanks by itself than Thank in English. But I'm not a linguist.

"All thanks to God"

Or "I thank God."

Whatever works.
posted by AnyUsernameWillDo at 4:30 PM on June 18, 2023

It’s funny; my family has gone the other direction - converting weird English expressions into Spanish, mostly as a result of Anglo men marrying into a Spanish-speaking family, translating an English expression into Spanish and the joke sort of sticking forever in a good natured way.

Examples:

Todo cochino for “whole hog”
Que tienen una pelota for “have a ball”
posted by jquinby at 4:38 PM on June 18, 2023 [5 favorites]

Thanks God. Thod.
posted by one for the books at 4:47 PM on June 18, 2023 [14 favorites]

Take a decision

That's also common in British English, or was in the 80s when I lived there.
posted by gentlyepigrams at 5:10 PM on June 18, 2023 [2 favorites]

All I can think of when I read these discussions is that "calque" is a loanword from the French (to trace or copy), while "loanword" is a calque, from the German "lehnwort".

Lesson: Linguists are chaotic goofballs and a bunch of fun at parties.
posted by SaltySalticid at 5:12 PM on June 18, 2023 [26 favorites]

I instinctually thought "Make a party" sounded ridiculous, and then I realized that we say "Throw a party" and my English may very well be the weird one. (Apparently it isn't clear where "throw" came from there.)
posted by mmoncur at 5:58 PM on June 18, 2023 [7 favorites]

SaltySalticid: "All I can think of when I read these discussions is that "calque" is a loanword from the French (to trace or copy), while "loanword" is a calque, from the German "lehnwort"."

Also, portmanteau is a portmanteau.
posted by signal at 6:32 PM on June 18, 2023 [5 favorites]

Also, in Mexican Spanish you can say "make a fart" (hacer una peda) or "put together a fart" (armar una peda) to mean throw a party, though with more of an implication of drunkenness than might be appropriate for a kid's birthday.

I would love it if they also said "make a tail" (hacer cola) for standing in line in Maimi, since that's common in Cuba.
posted by ssg at 8:33 PM on June 18, 2023

I've heard "Thanks God" before from non-Spanish speakers as well (English was a third or fourth language to the folks I heard use "Thanks God" in English.

Same (non-Spanish speakers learning English as a second language, with no plural in the equivalent expression in their own language). My assumption has been that it's mostly because of the prevalence of "thanks" as an expression in English, and possibly because "thanks, God" or "thanks (to) God" are more immediate interpretations to speakers of those languages than "(let us) thank God" or an imperative "thank God" or whatever other reading can be found for that expression.

Anyway the author's confident ascription of "thanks God" to the "s" in gracias does show easy it is in linguistics to jump to conclusions/folk etymologies without a broad basis for comparison.
posted by trig at 10:28 PM on June 18, 2023 [2 favorites]

I don't know the author's basis for the statement that the "s" sound in "thanks God" in the dialect he's studied is a phonetic calque, because I haven't read his research. Certainly there are other plausible explanations for that usage, but I think we can discuss those possibilities without jumping to the conclusion that the sociolinguistics Ph.D. describing his research findings to a general audience doesn't have a basis for his statements beyond folk etymologies.

Relatedly, the main link is to a website I wasn't previously familiar with, which describes its mission as follows:

Information has always been essential to democracy. It’s a societal good, like clean water. But many now find it difficult to put their trust in the media and experts who have spent years researching a topic. Instead, they listen to those who have the loudest voices. Those uninformed views are amplified by social media networks that reward those who spark outrage instead of insight or thoughtful discussion.

The Conversation U.S. seeks to be part of the solution to this problem, to raise up the voices of true experts and to make their knowledge available to everyone.

I'm not implying anyone in this thread is trying to be loud rather than encourage insightful discussion - there's lots of great observations here - I just don't really get the occasional emphasis on how the author must be wrong since people have other related experiences with ESL.
posted by the primroses were over at 4:32 AM on June 19, 2023 [4 favorites]

I think when most people who think about Spanglish at all think about Spanglish, it's more often the English-tinged Spanish of 1st-2nd generation immigrants or the heavy use of Spanish loanwords and codeswitching among 2nd-gen and later Latinos. I think the emphasis here on how Spanish is influencing actual grammar and syntax of English in the area is pretty interesting. It's certainly something that has been discussed a lot among language geeks, professional and otherwise, for other regional and ethnic dialects of English.

The "para atrás" construction you often hear in U.S. Spanish throws me off as someone who has mostly learned and continues to work primarily with Latin American Spanish. I have to do a bit of mental gymnastics to remember that "dámelo para atrás" means "give it back to me" and not "give it to me in the back" with obviously different connotations.
posted by drlith at 5:36 AM on June 19, 2023 [7 favorites]

"Thanks God”

This is often seen as a Yiddishism (at least in writing).

I've heard 'make a party' from time to time in California without it being attached to any particular ethnicity (including from older people).

Seems natural enough to expand 'make' where you might otherwise use 'do' or 'put on.' If anything it's English that's irregular in not having a more encompassing verb like hacer or faire/fare/fer.
posted by snuffleupagus at 9:41 AM on June 19, 2023 [2 favorites]

"Thanks God”

I've always assumed this is a shortening of "Thanks be to God", which makes an appearance in 1 Corinthians 15:57.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 10:06 AM on June 19, 2023 [2 favorites]

Probably not in the Yiddish context. Giving thanks to God (transitively...or, datively?) turns up all over the scripture and in the prayer services. The English 'thank god' manages to be vague about whether it's an imperative or an attribution or a veneration.
posted by snuffleupagus at 10:25 AM on June 19, 2023

Not the same, but kind of the same? When I was working in Sweden, speaking Swedish much of the day, and my only in-person English was with Swedes, when I would IM with a friend who has fluent Norwegian, she commented that my English shifted in structure and word choice, to more closely reflect Swedish.

I don't know if similar shifts happened to my peers who didn't have any Swedish and were conversing in English with Swedes.
posted by DebetEsse at 6:19 PM on June 21, 2023 [1 favorite]