This is a solar-powered website, which means it sometimes goes offline
August 30, 2023 4:16 PM Subscribe
Low-tech Magazine (many previouslies) created a solar-powered version of their website a few years ago (previously). Since then they've realized that most of the financial and carbon cost of their solar website comes from using batteries to keep it on all the time. They explore the implications of using the sun's energy when it's available, including experience from the Living Energy Farm, in Direct Solar Power: Off-Grid Without Batteries.
One thing I love about their website is how it is extremely readable and loads essentially instantly. The way all websites should.
posted by seanmpuckett at 5:45 PM on August 30, 2023 [14 favorites]
posted by seanmpuckett at 5:45 PM on August 30, 2023 [14 favorites]
It is not so difficult to imagine a modern society where activities such as vacuuming and DIY chores only take place during the day. It is certainly not a return to the Middle Ages.
People in the Middle Ages worked out of their damn homes. Is my boss going to give me a special day off to do my housework and dry my laundry?
Yes, I admit, that would be a better society.
posted by Hypatia at 6:04 PM on August 30, 2023 [5 favorites]
People in the Middle Ages worked out of their damn homes. Is my boss going to give me a special day off to do my housework and dry my laundry?
Yes, I admit, that would be a better society.
posted by Hypatia at 6:04 PM on August 30, 2023 [5 favorites]
I like the ordered dithering, how else ya gonna get 30-40 KB image files?
posted by credulous at 6:14 PM on August 30, 2023
posted by credulous at 6:14 PM on August 30, 2023
I feel like the logical conclusion of this is a solar-powered website which only hosts the Unabomber's manifesto.
Low-tech thinking is an absolute distraction from realistic solutions to the world's problems at a time when we're replacing coal with renewables faster than ever before.
Renewables just delivered more electricity than coal in America for the first half of the year. China is about to hit one TeraWatt of solar and wind capacity.
As for storage - of course lead-acid batteries are a dumb idea. They're expensive, polluting to produce, and short-lived. That's why we're not using them for grid-scale storage.
Storage starts with diverse production - multiple renewable sources linked by continent-scale grids. Then the cheapest storage is pumped hydro, then a host of other technologies from lithium batteries, metal-air batteries, thermal, compressed-air, redox flow batteries, all of which can have far lower commercial and environmental costs than lead-acid.
posted by happyinmotion at 6:16 PM on August 30, 2023 [7 favorites]
Low-tech thinking is an absolute distraction from realistic solutions to the world's problems at a time when we're replacing coal with renewables faster than ever before.
Renewables just delivered more electricity than coal in America for the first half of the year. China is about to hit one TeraWatt of solar and wind capacity.
As for storage - of course lead-acid batteries are a dumb idea. They're expensive, polluting to produce, and short-lived. That's why we're not using them for grid-scale storage.
Storage starts with diverse production - multiple renewable sources linked by continent-scale grids. Then the cheapest storage is pumped hydro, then a host of other technologies from lithium batteries, metal-air batteries, thermal, compressed-air, redox flow batteries, all of which can have far lower commercial and environmental costs than lead-acid.
posted by happyinmotion at 6:16 PM on August 30, 2023 [7 favorites]
But while the solar panels should last 30 years and the charge controller about 10 years, I have to replace the lead battery on average every three to five years.
We now reference the most marvously crotchety yet erudite solar expert on the interwebs:
HandyBob's Blog
Making off grid RV electrical systems work
De Decker has a good footnote, but Mr HandyBob is an engineer that has been living the offgrid life and researching solar extensively. Basically never let the batteries get very low, ever. And choose the right controller.
posted by sammyo at 7:14 PM on August 30, 2023 [3 favorites]
We now reference the most marvously crotchety yet erudite solar expert on the interwebs:
HandyBob's Blog
Making off grid RV electrical systems work
De Decker has a good footnote, but Mr HandyBob is an engineer that has been living the offgrid life and researching solar extensively. Basically never let the batteries get very low, ever. And choose the right controller.
posted by sammyo at 7:14 PM on August 30, 2023 [3 favorites]
The folks at Living Energy Farm are friends and neighbors of mine. They do cool work. One of the things they've been doing lately is helping to bring DC solar energy systems to Puerto Rico. They're big proponents of nickel-iron batteries paired with DC microgrid power.
Alexis Ziegler of LEF has a whole lot to say, and I think at the heart of it is this excerpt from his most recent book:
"Though Americans often prefer isolation to interconnection, by far the most important environmental "technology" ever developed is cooperative use -- in a word, community. Community is THE technology that makes renewable energy viable."
posted by chantenay at 7:27 PM on August 30, 2023 [5 favorites]
Alexis Ziegler of LEF has a whole lot to say, and I think at the heart of it is this excerpt from his most recent book:
"Though Americans often prefer isolation to interconnection, by far the most important environmental "technology" ever developed is cooperative use -- in a word, community. Community is THE technology that makes renewable energy viable."
posted by chantenay at 7:27 PM on August 30, 2023 [5 favorites]
I've been to Living Energy Farm. I was most impressed by their solar heating, which heats air in boxes on the roof and blows it under the concrete slab to store heat for overnight. The boxes are just glass over a wooden box painted black, and only a small solar panel is needed to run the blower. Super low tech and works amazingly well in February.
The direct solar drive stuff is fun too. Inspired me to put in a water pump that is direct solar drive from 30 year old solar panels, up to a water tank.
posted by joeyh at 7:32 PM on August 30, 2023 [5 favorites]
The direct solar drive stuff is fun too. Inspired me to put in a water pump that is direct solar drive from 30 year old solar panels, up to a water tank.
posted by joeyh at 7:32 PM on August 30, 2023 [5 favorites]
That's fascinating. Living Energy is less than two hours from here. We'll have to visit.
posted by doctornemo at 7:32 PM on August 30, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by doctornemo at 7:32 PM on August 30, 2023 [1 favorite]
I keep thinking capacitors will find a niche in all this.
They’re cheaper to make, more durable, leakage isn't such a big deal if you discharge within a few hours, switching can compensate for voltage changes as I understand it, and etc.
posted by jamjam at 8:22 PM on August 30, 2023 [2 favorites]
They’re cheaper to make, more durable, leakage isn't such a big deal if you discharge within a few hours, switching can compensate for voltage changes as I understand it, and etc.
posted by jamjam at 8:22 PM on August 30, 2023 [2 favorites]
I keep thinking capacitors will find a niche in all this. They’re cheaper to make, ...
Although capacitors can be cheap on a per-unit basis, they have much lower energy density than batteries, so they end up being much more expensive per unit of energy stored.
A 100-farad supercapacitor costs roughly as much as a standard 18650 lithium-ion cell, and has a comparable similar size and weight, but can only store about 1% as much energy.
posted by teraflop at 9:39 PM on August 30, 2023 [2 favorites]
Although capacitors can be cheap on a per-unit basis, they have much lower energy density than batteries, so they end up being much more expensive per unit of energy stored.
A 100-farad supercapacitor costs roughly as much as a standard 18650 lithium-ion cell, and has a comparable similar size and weight, but can only store about 1% as much energy.
posted by teraflop at 9:39 PM on August 30, 2023 [2 favorites]
Capacitors are high-power, low-energy vs batteries' low power, high-energy. I don't see much of a role for them in all this.
posted by alby at 11:18 PM on August 30, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by alby at 11:18 PM on August 30, 2023 [1 favorite]
Low-tech thinking is an absolute distraction from realistic solutions to the world's problems at a time when we're replacing coal with renewables faster than ever before.
Pursuing this line of thinking tends to head in the direction of perpetual growth, I feel. Which if you believe in it, OK, but I tend to view as fairly extreme wishful thinking.
I think it's entirely possible that a decarbonised economy could be worse ecologically on many measures than the one we have now, except for carbon. It's quite possible for humanity to run into a number of planetary boundaries without carbon being one of them. Using less, doing less, being lower tech, is quite sane in that context.
posted by deadwax at 12:04 AM on August 31, 2023 [5 favorites]
Pursuing this line of thinking tends to head in the direction of perpetual growth, I feel. Which if you believe in it, OK, but I tend to view as fairly extreme wishful thinking.
I think it's entirely possible that a decarbonised economy could be worse ecologically on many measures than the one we have now, except for carbon. It's quite possible for humanity to run into a number of planetary boundaries without carbon being one of them. Using less, doing less, being lower tech, is quite sane in that context.
posted by deadwax at 12:04 AM on August 31, 2023 [5 favorites]
"Low-tech thinking is an absolute distraction from realistic solutions to the world's problems at a time when we're replacing coal with renewables faster than ever before. "
Not replacing. Adding. The world is adding renewables and adding coal and adding methane and adding oil burning capacity. Its true, if you zoom in on any particular corner of the world, it might locally grow one source of power and shrink another, but the net of all of that churn is that the world is adding fossil fuels and adding renewables.
I'm glad that they are adding renewables.
Also, low-tech thinking is not a distraction, because it explores the conservative economically/politically taboo idea that wasteful uses of energy are not beneficial or that demand can be a variable, or that our enjoyment per watt can be a better metric than simply our watts per person.
Also, its worth reading the back issues of Low tech and no-tech magazines. They are delightful.
Visited Acorn before Living Energy Farm hived off from it. (i think that is the pedigree chart). 2nding the observation that people cooperating and sharing is much more powerful than people just doing BAU until we all die.
Lead Acid batteries are the cheapest batteries, even taking their lifespan into account, they are also the easiest and most likely to be recycled and have the highest recycling recovery rate. But better than more and bigger batteries is not needing so much, and that is where the alt lifestyle shines.
posted by AnchoriteOfPalgrave at 12:31 AM on August 31, 2023 [6 favorites]
Not replacing. Adding. The world is adding renewables and adding coal and adding methane and adding oil burning capacity. Its true, if you zoom in on any particular corner of the world, it might locally grow one source of power and shrink another, but the net of all of that churn is that the world is adding fossil fuels and adding renewables.
I'm glad that they are adding renewables.
Also, low-tech thinking is not a distraction, because it explores the conservative economically/politically taboo idea that wasteful uses of energy are not beneficial or that demand can be a variable, or that our enjoyment per watt can be a better metric than simply our watts per person.
Also, its worth reading the back issues of Low tech and no-tech magazines. They are delightful.
Visited Acorn before Living Energy Farm hived off from it. (i think that is the pedigree chart). 2nding the observation that people cooperating and sharing is much more powerful than people just doing BAU until we all die.
Lead Acid batteries are the cheapest batteries, even taking their lifespan into account, they are also the easiest and most likely to be recycled and have the highest recycling recovery rate. But better than more and bigger batteries is not needing so much, and that is where the alt lifestyle shines.
posted by AnchoriteOfPalgrave at 12:31 AM on August 31, 2023 [6 favorites]
It's clear perpetual growth is impossible, but more immediately we cannot grow the economy much longer, and our ponzi-based economy shall collapse in response (see Nate Hagens, Tim Garrett, Joseph Tainter, etc).
All the past post-growth societies discussed by Giorgos Kallis or others were pretty insular island nations. Individual societies might've some inherent growth imperative though, and large scale international trade makes economically unifies societies, so large scale international trade would not necessarily be compatible with our post-growth future.
We always face value judgement in what we save, so sure solar permits a more advanced society, which yes I'd prefer. We face unpredictability too though so we cannot necessarily keep each corner of the world at some given level of advancement. If trade collapses then only nations who make solar panels or batteries could've more solar or batteries.
"Economics is so religious that it makes theology seem logical" - Steve Keen (previously)
posted by jeffburdges at 12:56 AM on August 31, 2023 [2 favorites]
All the past post-growth societies discussed by Giorgos Kallis or others were pretty insular island nations. Individual societies might've some inherent growth imperative though, and large scale international trade makes economically unifies societies, so large scale international trade would not necessarily be compatible with our post-growth future.
We always face value judgement in what we save, so sure solar permits a more advanced society, which yes I'd prefer. We face unpredictability too though so we cannot necessarily keep each corner of the world at some given level of advancement. If trade collapses then only nations who make solar panels or batteries could've more solar or batteries.
"Economics is so religious that it makes theology seem logical" - Steve Keen (previously)
posted by jeffburdges at 12:56 AM on August 31, 2023 [2 favorites]
Amusing aside: If they ran bitcoin off solar then miners would be under powered the majority of the time, which makes bitcoin no longer secure under a byzantine threat model. In other words, ASICs are stake in bitcoin,and bitcoin lacks finality, so if enough miners ever switched from solar to nuclear then they could double spend. A priori, enough means maybe 1/4 or 1/6th here, but reality much less. I bet bitcoin dies long before then though.
posted by jeffburdges at 1:15 AM on August 31, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by jeffburdges at 1:15 AM on August 31, 2023 [1 favorite]
This isn’t miles and miles away from dynamic pricing or OhmConnect (which pays electrical customers to decrease their usage during peak demand.)
Certain machines and services don’t have to be always-on or always available. In a place with pretty reliable solar or wind, we could imagine certain nonessential but commonly-needed services only available when they can be directly powered. Or luxury services powered by a turbine or solar panels in a place where weather is more fitful.
As someone whose work is dependent on certain weather conditions, I can say that, as frustrating as it is to go through a stretch of cloudy nights, there is a giddy delight in seeing that, finally, tonight, the weather forecast is going your way. That could be played as a feature rather than a flaw.
posted by BrashTech at 4:15 AM on August 31, 2023
Certain machines and services don’t have to be always-on or always available. In a place with pretty reliable solar or wind, we could imagine certain nonessential but commonly-needed services only available when they can be directly powered. Or luxury services powered by a turbine or solar panels in a place where weather is more fitful.
As someone whose work is dependent on certain weather conditions, I can say that, as frustrating as it is to go through a stretch of cloudy nights, there is a giddy delight in seeing that, finally, tonight, the weather forecast is going your way. That could be played as a feature rather than a flaw.
posted by BrashTech at 4:15 AM on August 31, 2023
I bake sourdough on solar power, and I only do it on sunny days because my house's battery is small enough that baking a loaf would deplete it by 50%. So weather forecasting is part of my sourdough process, I check the forecast 2 days out and warm up the starter. There's a nice intentionality to that process.
My oven does need some battery power to run (my 1 kw of solar panels doesn't quite make enough power but will charge the battery back up after the bake in about an hour), so it's not solar direct drive in the way this article and Living Energy Farm are promoting. But the result is the same, only a minimal battery used for lighting, internet, etc overnight.
posted by joeyh at 6:22 AM on August 31, 2023 [2 favorites]
My oven does need some battery power to run (my 1 kw of solar panels doesn't quite make enough power but will charge the battery back up after the bake in about an hour), so it's not solar direct drive in the way this article and Living Energy Farm are promoting. But the result is the same, only a minimal battery used for lighting, internet, etc overnight.
posted by joeyh at 6:22 AM on August 31, 2023 [2 favorites]
The Solar Protocol project uses a network of servers to provide its website based on where the sun is shining. They cite Low Tech Magazine as an inspiration for their approach, including the same low-bit depth dithered images.
posted by autopilot at 8:08 AM on August 31, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by autopilot at 8:08 AM on August 31, 2023 [3 favorites]
FTA: "Other types of batteries would not significantly change this conclusion. For a comparable off-grid system with lithium-ion batteries, energy storage would account for about 95% of the total lifetime cost (which is almost double that of a system with lead-acid batteries). Assuming an optimistic lifetime (10 years) and including charge controllers, lithium energy storage accounts for some 70% of the energy invested in a solar grid system..."
This is not so correct. I have a 300WH Jackery knockoff I bought for $100. It claims it's a LiFePO4 battery inside. A 12v 100AH lead-acid battery is about 1200WH, if you could use it all, which you cannot unless you want to replace the battery within a year. My battery can be discharged all the way to an indicated 0% with no apparent ill effects. In speaking with electric-car enthusiasts and offgrid folk over the last few decades, LiFePo4 pencils out cheaper in the long term than lead-acid does. Renogy claims their 12v 100AH battery will last 10 years, or "over 4000 cycles at 80% depth of discharge". These batteries cost $500 if you buy 2, or a little over $600 individually. The cheapest 12v 100AH lead battery I've seen was $275. I don't think it would last 1000 cycles of 80% discharges.
The quoted assertion seems to become less true with time: the last time I checked Renogy's website was a month ago ( I thought I could afford some batts last month but the van sprung an oil leak so nah) and the same batts were $50 more then iirc.
posted by Rev. Irreverent Revenant at 9:59 AM on August 31, 2023 [1 favorite]
This is not so correct. I have a 300WH Jackery knockoff I bought for $100. It claims it's a LiFePO4 battery inside. A 12v 100AH lead-acid battery is about 1200WH, if you could use it all, which you cannot unless you want to replace the battery within a year. My battery can be discharged all the way to an indicated 0% with no apparent ill effects. In speaking with electric-car enthusiasts and offgrid folk over the last few decades, LiFePo4 pencils out cheaper in the long term than lead-acid does. Renogy claims their 12v 100AH battery will last 10 years, or "over 4000 cycles at 80% depth of discharge". These batteries cost $500 if you buy 2, or a little over $600 individually. The cheapest 12v 100AH lead battery I've seen was $275. I don't think it would last 1000 cycles of 80% discharges.
The quoted assertion seems to become less true with time: the last time I checked Renogy's website was a month ago ( I thought I could afford some batts last month but the van sprung an oil leak so nah) and the same batts were $50 more then iirc.
posted by Rev. Irreverent Revenant at 9:59 AM on August 31, 2023 [1 favorite]
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