"a permanent cessation of military and hostile operations"
May 7, 2024 11:45 PM Subscribe
Hamas accepted ceasefire Arms pause
This is part of the ongoing thread on the war.
https://www.metafilter.com/203321/Six-months-and-counting
https://www.metafilter.com/203440/Protesting-for-Gaza-on-US-universities
This is part of the ongoing thread on the war.
https://www.metafilter.com/203321/Six-months-and-counting
https://www.metafilter.com/203440/Protesting-for-Gaza-on-US-universities
This has been age-rated so it won't show up on your YouTube algos, but Macklemore's single - Hind's Hall - is posted (and on other platforms). All streaming proceeds will go to UNRWA.
posted by cendawanita at 11:59 PM on May 7 [18 favorites]
posted by cendawanita at 11:59 PM on May 7 [18 favorites]
Literally my only exposure to Macklemore (3:27) before this.
posted by human ecologist at 12:24 AM on May 8 [1 favorite]
posted by human ecologist at 12:24 AM on May 8 [1 favorite]
Thrift Shop was everywhere for quite some while. Hind's Hall packs more punch. With any luck it will be quite hard to suppress.
posted by flabdablet at 1:26 AM on May 8 [3 favorites]
posted by flabdablet at 1:26 AM on May 8 [3 favorites]
Block the barricade until Palestine is free.
posted by corb at 1:32 AM on May 8 [6 favorites]
posted by corb at 1:32 AM on May 8 [6 favorites]
I suspect the only cease fire that Netanyahu would ever agree to is one that would keep him out of prison.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 1:33 AM on May 8 [14 favorites]
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 1:33 AM on May 8 [14 favorites]
The last thread is about to close but had a fresh burst of activity due to the ceasefire will-they-won't-they, even in between all the war crimes still happening, so just a quick recap of some articles/links in the last few days (biased by my choice):
CNN: Hamas has offered a ceasefire deal. Here’s why that won’t bring an immediate end to the war in Gaza
Life as a Sacred Text (Rabbi Danya Ruttenberg's blog): "Are Jews Indigenous?" A Quechua Jew Weighs In - Guest Post from Daniel Delgado
Full text of the current ceasefire terms (that Hamas shared with Al-Jazeera)
Barak Ravid and his access journalism in the meantime for Axios: Israelis frustrated with U.S. handling of hostage talks
CNN: Leading Gaza surgeon Adnan Al-Bursh dies in Israeli prison - with indications of widespread torture and secondhand testimony of torture specifically on Al-Bursh. To read with this Gideon Levy piece on Haaretz (written with Alex Levac): Palestinian Released From Israeli Prison Describes Beatings, Sexual Abuse and Torture - Amer Abu Halil, a West Bank resident who was active in Hamas and was jailed without trial, recalls the wartime routine he endured in Israel's Ketziot Prison
posted by cendawanita at 1:56 AM on May 8 [15 favorites]
CNN: Hamas has offered a ceasefire deal. Here’s why that won’t bring an immediate end to the war in Gaza
Life as a Sacred Text (Rabbi Danya Ruttenberg's blog): "Are Jews Indigenous?" A Quechua Jew Weighs In - Guest Post from Daniel Delgado
Full text of the current ceasefire terms (that Hamas shared with Al-Jazeera)
Barak Ravid and his access journalism in the meantime for Axios: Israelis frustrated with U.S. handling of hostage talks
CNN: Leading Gaza surgeon Adnan Al-Bursh dies in Israeli prison - with indications of widespread torture and secondhand testimony of torture specifically on Al-Bursh. To read with this Gideon Levy piece on Haaretz (written with Alex Levac): Palestinian Released From Israeli Prison Describes Beatings, Sexual Abuse and Torture - Amer Abu Halil, a West Bank resident who was active in Hamas and was jailed without trial, recalls the wartime routine he endured in Israel's Ketziot Prison
posted by cendawanita at 1:56 AM on May 8 [15 favorites]
I've yet to see any Zionists responding to any of the articles about the torture and abuse of Palestinian detainees in any way other than outright denial ("Hamas lies, you're a terrorist, the IDF would never do anything like that") or by openly admitting that they think it's good and fine and they'd do the same ("fuck around and find out" / "well just release the hostages then").
I don't know how to talk to them. I don't know how you get through to someone who has sunk that low. I don't know how you forgive them. In a way it's worse, to me, than the bombings, because I can see the argument that bombs save IDF lives, even at the cost of innocent civilians, children. The torture and abuse of random people just for being Palestinian? Anyone who is comfortable standing beside that is not worthy of respect in a democratic society.
posted by Audreynachrome at 2:41 AM on May 8 [46 favorites]
I don't know how to talk to them. I don't know how you get through to someone who has sunk that low. I don't know how you forgive them. In a way it's worse, to me, than the bombings, because I can see the argument that bombs save IDF lives, even at the cost of innocent civilians, children. The torture and abuse of random people just for being Palestinian? Anyone who is comfortable standing beside that is not worthy of respect in a democratic society.
posted by Audreynachrome at 2:41 AM on May 8 [46 favorites]
I don't know how to talk to them. I don't know how you get through to someone who has sunk that low. I don't know how you forgive them.
They're fundamentally not any different from mid-19th century Americans cheering the extermination of Native Americans, or Jim Crow era white Southerners taking a picnic lunch to a lynching. Human nature doesn't really change, and some (possibly most?) humans will always be monstrous, given an "other' to dehumanise.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 2:52 AM on May 8 [10 favorites]
They're fundamentally not any different from mid-19th century Americans cheering the extermination of Native Americans, or Jim Crow era white Southerners taking a picnic lunch to a lynching. Human nature doesn't really change, and some (possibly most?) humans will always be monstrous, given an "other' to dehumanise.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 2:52 AM on May 8 [10 favorites]
i do not understand the domestic and international political situation, but presumably the israeli government's negotiating position gets better by delaying a deal and continuing to press their military advantage. from that perspective, it is unclear that the weaker party offering a deal that is not to the stronger party's liking is indicative that anything will change.
posted by are-coral-made at 3:53 AM on May 8
posted by are-coral-made at 3:53 AM on May 8
This seems to be more of the same talks stalemate that's being going on for a while now?
Hamas has been sticking to a temporary ceasefire for hostage/prisoner exchange, but that also to be the permanent end of the war. The latter part is not something Netanyahu and the Israeli hardliners has appeared willing to contemplate at any point, insisting on the complete end of Hamas in Gaza before the invasion ends, no matter how many more civilians get bombed, die of starvation/disease or tortured in the process.
Is there any foreseeable way for this to progress without Biden at least threatening to cut Israel off?
posted by Absolutely No You-Know-What at 4:00 AM on May 8 [2 favorites]
Hamas has been sticking to a temporary ceasefire for hostage/prisoner exchange, but that also to be the permanent end of the war. The latter part is not something Netanyahu and the Israeli hardliners has appeared willing to contemplate at any point, insisting on the complete end of Hamas in Gaza before the invasion ends, no matter how many more civilians get bombed, die of starvation/disease or tortured in the process.
Is there any foreseeable way for this to progress without Biden at least threatening to cut Israel off?
posted by Absolutely No You-Know-What at 4:00 AM on May 8 [2 favorites]
They're fundamentally not any different from mid-19th century Americans cheering the extermination of Native Americans, or Jim Crow era white Southerners taking a picnic lunch to a lynching.
They're fundamentally different in one way: they're around right now, and will be for the rest of my life. I don't have to worry about forgiving Jim Crow Southerners or mid-19th century anyone. They can stay unforgiven. But I have to spend the next six decades or whatever figuring out how not to be the one in trouble when I won't sit at the same table as these ghouls.
posted by Audreynachrome at 4:03 AM on May 8 [27 favorites]
They're fundamentally different in one way: they're around right now, and will be for the rest of my life. I don't have to worry about forgiving Jim Crow Southerners or mid-19th century anyone. They can stay unforgiven. But I have to spend the next six decades or whatever figuring out how not to be the one in trouble when I won't sit at the same table as these ghouls.
posted by Audreynachrome at 4:03 AM on May 8 [27 favorites]
We sadly lack the They Live glasses that show us who understands "Never Again Means Now" and who has a moral slip'n'slide where their heart should be.
posted by Slackermagee at 5:13 AM on May 8 [6 favorites]
posted by Slackermagee at 5:13 AM on May 8 [6 favorites]
It was a supposedly democratic society that produced the modern Zionist. That same democratic society that maintains black sites for extraordinary rendition and torture of suspected terrorists as well as ordinary criminals. In fact it's hard to point to anything Israel is doing that the US hasn't also done at some point within my short lifetime, all while preaching to the world about international law and human rights.
posted by jy4m at 5:22 AM on May 8 [5 favorites]
posted by jy4m at 5:22 AM on May 8 [5 favorites]
Mod note: One comment removed, per the Content Policy, for insensitive content.
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 5:23 AM on May 8
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 5:23 AM on May 8
it's hard to point to anything Israel is doing that the US hasn't also done at some point within my short lifetime
Ethnic cleansing and genocide? The US hasn't done those on American soil within living memory.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 5:25 AM on May 8
Ethnic cleansing and genocide? The US hasn't done those on American soil within living memory.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 5:25 AM on May 8
Received word last night that my relative who was taken 10/7 has passed while captive. Not unexpected, a shock nonetheless
posted by Press Butt.on to Check at 5:26 AM on May 8 [39 favorites]
posted by Press Butt.on to Check at 5:26 AM on May 8 [39 favorites]
I'm sorry for your loss, Press
posted by jy4m at 5:28 AM on May 8 [24 favorites]
posted by jy4m at 5:28 AM on May 8 [24 favorites]
.
posted by flabdablet at 5:57 AM on May 8 [4 favorites]
posted by flabdablet at 5:57 AM on May 8 [4 favorites]
.
posted by cendawanita at 6:06 AM on May 8 [3 favorites]
posted by cendawanita at 6:06 AM on May 8 [3 favorites]
continuing to press their military advantage
If it helps not even the Israeli generals are saying they have any military advantage left.
Is there any foreseeable way for this to progress without Biden at least threatening to cut Israel off?
Probably not.
posted by cendawanita at 6:07 AM on May 8 [2 favorites]
If it helps not even the Israeli generals are saying they have any military advantage left.
Is there any foreseeable way for this to progress without Biden at least threatening to cut Israel off?
Probably not.
posted by cendawanita at 6:07 AM on May 8 [2 favorites]
Because this particular crossing comes from Jordan, this is notable - Jordanians registering a complaint with the US (unlike Egypt) is probably the only reason there's any action at all: (ToI) Six Israelis arrested for attacking, damaging aid convoy heading to Gaza -
Protesters intercept trucks from Jordan, spilling goods onto road and slashing tires; activists say they will keep blocking the trucks until the hostages are released from Gaza
Haaretz (exclusive; though ToI has a brief mention): Israel Commits to Limit Rafah Operation, Grant Control of Crossing With Egypt to Private U.S. Firm
The parties [USA, Egypt, Israel] agreed that a private American security company will assume management of the crossing after the IDF concludes its operation. Israel has also pledged not to damage the crossing's facilities to ensure its continuous operation.
State Department spokesperson Matthew Miller said on Wednesday that he is not aware of Israel agreeing to transfer control of the crossing. The White House also said it was unaware of such an agreement.
Prior to the ground invasion of Rafah, Israel made it clear in talks that the operation's objective is to exert pressure on Hamas in the hostage negotiations and to harm the crossing's reputation as a symbol of Hamas power, as it serves as Gaza's main lifeline.
That claim would be believable if the army of warcrime scrapbookers aren't scrapbooking away, eg: using tanks to destroy Gaza signs.
Speaking of the army:
Guardian: Israeli airstrike that killed seven health workers in Lebanon used US munition, analysis reveals -
Human rights experts say attack was violation of international law, and that US supplying of weapon defies 1997 Leahy law (please note location)
The Guardian examined the remnants of a 500lb Israeli MPR bomb and a US-manufactured Joint Direction Attack Munition (JDAM) recovered by first responders from the scene of the attack. Pictures of the shrapnel sent by the Guardian were further verified by Human Rights Watch and an independent arms expert.
(...) The revelation of Israel’s use of US weaponry in an unlawful attack comes as the US secretary of state, Antony Blinken, is set to deliver a report to Congress on 8 May on whether he finds credible Israel’s assurances that its use of US weapons do not violate US or international Law.
The Democratic senator Chris Van Hollen said that the attack on al-Habariyeh should be reflected in Blinken’s report to Congress.
(Earlier it was reported by Politico that the report is being delayed which set off a flurry of takes, and sharing Akbar Shahid Ahmed, who's been following up with his sources: My understanding, based on well-informed sources, is a report *is* coming & Capitol Hill was told it's being finalized.
Given the pressure from Congress & outside advocates on this (+ extensive US gov work already done) hard to see how the admin pulls off an indefinite delay.)
Anyway, back to the IDF:
Ynet: Half of all IDF ammunition in war comes from U.S., report shows -
Annual Defense Ministry report reveals Israel's specific dependency on American military aid on which it had spent billions throughout the ongoing war while long-term contracts ensure continued reliance on U.S.
Some of these contracts will only be fulfilled in the future, which means that Israel's dependence on the U.S. is expected to continue in the coming years under any scenario. Additionally, the data once again shows how specifically Israel relies on the U.S. itself rather than "the world," therefore reported American threats to halt the sale of military equipment to Israel in case of an uncoordinated Rafah operation, are highly significant.
The disregard of senior Israeli officials in the coalition for American aid, alongside Sunday’s statements by Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu that "if we don't defend ourselves, no one will defend us. And if we need to stand alone, we‘ll stand alone" – ring hollow.
(...) The fact the majority of the Defense Ministry’s contracts which took place following the outbreak of the war in Gaza were made to purchase ammunition confirms previous reports that the IDF was forced to conduct "ammunition economics" and ration the air and ground attacks to preserve ammunition stocks both for the continuation of the fighting in Gaza and for the scenario of a full-scale war on the northern border.
The increased use of ammunition in the Gaza and Ukraine wars led the world to face a global shortage of various types of ammunition, making it difficult for the IDF and the Defense Ministry to obtain additional stock while driving up prices.
In addition to ammunition and weaponry, the Defense Ministry also purchased armored vehicles following the war. The report shows a deal worth 267 million shekels with an American company for the purchase of light armored vehicles.
Other things listed include ambulances, helmets, drones, heavy engineering equipment.
Haaretz: On Gaza's Crowded Battlefields, Many Israeli Soldiers Are Killed by Friendly Fire -
Last week, two reservists were killed in Gaza by Israeli tank fire after being misidentified as the enemy. A squadron commander on the incident: 'With the means available to us, it could happen again'
Since the start of the war, at least 43 soldiers have been killed not by enemy fire. Twenty two were killed by friendly fire, five by irregular fire by mortars or aerial bombs, and the rest in operational accidents.
For the sake of comparison, 263 soldiers have been killed since the start of the ground operation in late October, meaning almost a fifth of them died as the result of an accident.
Moreover, 54 soldiers have been wounded by friendly fire, 34 by irregular fire, and 456 in other operational accidents. The IDF published the figures on the war's six months mark at a request under the Freedom of Information Law filed by the NGO Hatzlacha – The Movement for the Promotion of a Fair Society.
Most of the friendly fire incidents in war have similar characteristics. Internal inquiries and conversations with senior officers indicate that most of them were due to deviating from the forces' sector boundaries, poor orientation in the field, and combat in a crowded area with many buildings.
Mondoweiss: What it’s like to be used as a human shield by the Israeli army -
Israeli soldiers rounded up Ahmad Safi and his male family members in Khan Younis and made them stand atop a sand dune for 12 hours as the soldiers took cover behind them during a firefight with Palestinian resistance fighters. This is their story.
Doin' great fellas.
Oh how could I forget: (CNN, Jake Tapper, interview clip) Analyst: Hamas trying to look good by agreeing to proposal
No. Comment.
posted by cendawanita at 6:33 AM on May 8 [17 favorites]
Protesters intercept trucks from Jordan, spilling goods onto road and slashing tires; activists say they will keep blocking the trucks until the hostages are released from Gaza
Haaretz (exclusive; though ToI has a brief mention): Israel Commits to Limit Rafah Operation, Grant Control of Crossing With Egypt to Private U.S. Firm
The parties [USA, Egypt, Israel] agreed that a private American security company will assume management of the crossing after the IDF concludes its operation. Israel has also pledged not to damage the crossing's facilities to ensure its continuous operation.
State Department spokesperson Matthew Miller said on Wednesday that he is not aware of Israel agreeing to transfer control of the crossing. The White House also said it was unaware of such an agreement.
Prior to the ground invasion of Rafah, Israel made it clear in talks that the operation's objective is to exert pressure on Hamas in the hostage negotiations and to harm the crossing's reputation as a symbol of Hamas power, as it serves as Gaza's main lifeline.
That claim would be believable if the army of warcrime scrapbookers aren't scrapbooking away, eg: using tanks to destroy Gaza signs.
Speaking of the army:
Guardian: Israeli airstrike that killed seven health workers in Lebanon used US munition, analysis reveals -
Human rights experts say attack was violation of international law, and that US supplying of weapon defies 1997 Leahy law (please note location)
The Guardian examined the remnants of a 500lb Israeli MPR bomb and a US-manufactured Joint Direction Attack Munition (JDAM) recovered by first responders from the scene of the attack. Pictures of the shrapnel sent by the Guardian were further verified by Human Rights Watch and an independent arms expert.
(...) The revelation of Israel’s use of US weaponry in an unlawful attack comes as the US secretary of state, Antony Blinken, is set to deliver a report to Congress on 8 May on whether he finds credible Israel’s assurances that its use of US weapons do not violate US or international Law.
The Democratic senator Chris Van Hollen said that the attack on al-Habariyeh should be reflected in Blinken’s report to Congress.
(Earlier it was reported by Politico that the report is being delayed which set off a flurry of takes, and sharing Akbar Shahid Ahmed, who's been following up with his sources: My understanding, based on well-informed sources, is a report *is* coming & Capitol Hill was told it's being finalized.
Given the pressure from Congress & outside advocates on this (+ extensive US gov work already done) hard to see how the admin pulls off an indefinite delay.)
Anyway, back to the IDF:
Ynet: Half of all IDF ammunition in war comes from U.S., report shows -
Annual Defense Ministry report reveals Israel's specific dependency on American military aid on which it had spent billions throughout the ongoing war while long-term contracts ensure continued reliance on U.S.
Some of these contracts will only be fulfilled in the future, which means that Israel's dependence on the U.S. is expected to continue in the coming years under any scenario. Additionally, the data once again shows how specifically Israel relies on the U.S. itself rather than "the world," therefore reported American threats to halt the sale of military equipment to Israel in case of an uncoordinated Rafah operation, are highly significant.
The disregard of senior Israeli officials in the coalition for American aid, alongside Sunday’s statements by Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu that "if we don't defend ourselves, no one will defend us. And if we need to stand alone, we‘ll stand alone" – ring hollow.
(...) The fact the majority of the Defense Ministry’s contracts which took place following the outbreak of the war in Gaza were made to purchase ammunition confirms previous reports that the IDF was forced to conduct "ammunition economics" and ration the air and ground attacks to preserve ammunition stocks both for the continuation of the fighting in Gaza and for the scenario of a full-scale war on the northern border.
The increased use of ammunition in the Gaza and Ukraine wars led the world to face a global shortage of various types of ammunition, making it difficult for the IDF and the Defense Ministry to obtain additional stock while driving up prices.
In addition to ammunition and weaponry, the Defense Ministry also purchased armored vehicles following the war. The report shows a deal worth 267 million shekels with an American company for the purchase of light armored vehicles.
Other things listed include ambulances, helmets, drones, heavy engineering equipment.
Haaretz: On Gaza's Crowded Battlefields, Many Israeli Soldiers Are Killed by Friendly Fire -
Last week, two reservists were killed in Gaza by Israeli tank fire after being misidentified as the enemy. A squadron commander on the incident: 'With the means available to us, it could happen again'
Since the start of the war, at least 43 soldiers have been killed not by enemy fire. Twenty two were killed by friendly fire, five by irregular fire by mortars or aerial bombs, and the rest in operational accidents.
For the sake of comparison, 263 soldiers have been killed since the start of the ground operation in late October, meaning almost a fifth of them died as the result of an accident.
Moreover, 54 soldiers have been wounded by friendly fire, 34 by irregular fire, and 456 in other operational accidents. The IDF published the figures on the war's six months mark at a request under the Freedom of Information Law filed by the NGO Hatzlacha – The Movement for the Promotion of a Fair Society.
Most of the friendly fire incidents in war have similar characteristics. Internal inquiries and conversations with senior officers indicate that most of them were due to deviating from the forces' sector boundaries, poor orientation in the field, and combat in a crowded area with many buildings.
Mondoweiss: What it’s like to be used as a human shield by the Israeli army -
Israeli soldiers rounded up Ahmad Safi and his male family members in Khan Younis and made them stand atop a sand dune for 12 hours as the soldiers took cover behind them during a firefight with Palestinian resistance fighters. This is their story.
Doin' great fellas.
Oh how could I forget: (CNN, Jake Tapper, interview clip) Analyst: Hamas trying to look good by agreeing to proposal
No. Comment.
posted by cendawanita at 6:33 AM on May 8 [17 favorites]
I suspect the only cease fire that Netanyahu would ever agree to is one that would keep him out of prison.
So while both sides have multiple reasons for thinking that they benefit from failed/delayed negotiations and continued violence, personally I think that Netanyahu's singular motivation to stay in power and thereby avoid his legal problems is the single largest impediment to both a short term ceasefire and a longer term peace.
Biden is finally witholding arms.
I was really glad to see this headline today.
Received word last night that my relative who was taken 10/7 has passed while captive. Not unexpected, a shock nonetheless
I'm so sorry for your loss.
posted by Dip Flash at 7:17 AM on May 8 [2 favorites]
So while both sides have multiple reasons for thinking that they benefit from failed/delayed negotiations and continued violence, personally I think that Netanyahu's singular motivation to stay in power and thereby avoid his legal problems is the single largest impediment to both a short term ceasefire and a longer term peace.
Biden is finally witholding arms.
I was really glad to see this headline today.
Received word last night that my relative who was taken 10/7 has passed while captive. Not unexpected, a shock nonetheless
I'm so sorry for your loss.
posted by Dip Flash at 7:17 AM on May 8 [2 favorites]
fascinating that my original comment was deleted, but not the Neel Kolhatkar screaming racist tropes clip, go figure
They made me sit on something like a hot metal stick and it felt like re – I have burns [in the anus]
I've opted not to copy the bit with the anal rape and violation involving dogs
This still reads as though it were from a quoted playbook in DeMause's psychogenic theory, in which he makes the pretty compelling argument that all violence done in adulthood is revenge against violence done in childhood.
children in Gaza underplaying their pain due to extent of trauma around them
Because I'm not 100% sure what I said before that got this deleted, this time I'm going to call hooey on this. I just came back from attending a Tending to Trauma Conference* and the latest data suggests that following a single-event traumatic experience, there is a 9-year delay during which the impact of the traumatic experience can incubate in a child's nervous system before behavioral signs may later emerge. Now that doesn't have to be a Death Sentence. After all, that 9-year delay can also be a 9-year window in which we -- the "adults" in the species -- help the children to get it right.
Imagine if we finally got together across the globe to implement a proposal to end all wars with this 9-year window for trauma-informed considerations built in across generations to safeguard our species' capacity for recovery and resilience.
*The talks by Lori Gill and Cindy Blackstock were the only ones I made it to. Would be wonderful to attend the same conference again just to double up on attending the talks and workshops.
posted by human ecologist at 7:32 AM on May 8
They made me sit on something like a hot metal stick and it felt like re – I have burns [in the anus]
I've opted not to copy the bit with the anal rape and violation involving dogs
This still reads as though it were from a quoted playbook in DeMause's psychogenic theory, in which he makes the pretty compelling argument that all violence done in adulthood is revenge against violence done in childhood.
children in Gaza underplaying their pain due to extent of trauma around them
Because I'm not 100% sure what I said before that got this deleted, this time I'm going to call hooey on this. I just came back from attending a Tending to Trauma Conference* and the latest data suggests that following a single-event traumatic experience, there is a 9-year delay during which the impact of the traumatic experience can incubate in a child's nervous system before behavioral signs may later emerge. Now that doesn't have to be a Death Sentence. After all, that 9-year delay can also be a 9-year window in which we -- the "adults" in the species -- help the children to get it right.
Imagine if we finally got together across the globe to implement a proposal to end all wars with this 9-year window for trauma-informed considerations built in across generations to safeguard our species' capacity for recovery and resilience.
*The talks by Lori Gill and Cindy Blackstock were the only ones I made it to. Would be wonderful to attend the same conference again just to double up on attending the talks and workshops.
posted by human ecologist at 7:32 AM on May 8
Now that doesn't have to be a Death Sentence, after all that 9-year delay can also be a 9-year window in which we -- the "adults" in the species" -- help the children to get it right.
Interesting! Remind me, what was life like in Gaza on October 6th, 2023? And any other day before that?
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 7:37 AM on May 8 [4 favorites]
Interesting! Remind me, what was life like in Gaza on October 6th, 2023? And any other day before that?
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 7:37 AM on May 8 [4 favorites]
As horrible as Gaza is, it really represents a compelling symptom of what's not working for the human species. If my comment gives you such a kneejerk reaction that you must respond like that, then maybe question the extent to which you are living life sheltered from the reality of our responsibility to actually help our species' kids deal with what life is dishing them.
Gaza is a fantastic distraction for the West from its domestic problems of violence towards children including incest, rape and sexual abuse (not to mention death by physical battery).
posted by human ecologist at 7:41 AM on May 8
Gaza is a fantastic distraction for the West from its domestic problems of violence towards children including incest, rape and sexual abuse (not to mention death by physical battery).
posted by human ecologist at 7:41 AM on May 8
Ah, yes, all those pro-Palestine protesters who are are also pro-incest??? I feel like you're not making your point entirely clearly.
posted by sagc at 7:44 AM on May 8 [11 favorites]
posted by sagc at 7:44 AM on May 8 [11 favorites]
RE: a proposal to end all wars. How do you get Putin to agree to that? Much less end a territorial conflict in the Middle East where both sides consider themselves the aggrieved party and justified in doing war crimes? It’s a beautiful dream, but as long as there are humans there will be war.
posted by rikschell at 7:45 AM on May 8 [2 favorites]
posted by rikschell at 7:45 AM on May 8 [2 favorites]
There is no excuse anymore for old men to claim "it's hopeless" when it's not.
In the future, when maybe our species can be good, preventing war in other peoples' countries will mean starting at home.
posted by human ecologist at 7:46 AM on May 8
In the future, when maybe our species can be good, preventing war in other peoples' countries will mean starting at home.
posted by human ecologist at 7:46 AM on May 8
as long as there are humans there will be war
This lack of effort into improving our nature may be the very reason why the planet rejects us in the end.
posted by human ecologist at 7:47 AM on May 8
This lack of effort into improving our nature may be the very reason why the planet rejects us in the end.
posted by human ecologist at 7:47 AM on May 8
single-event traumatic experience
I think part of the problem with this is that 7 months is an awful long time for a single event, and perhaps the years before it were not super chill.
posted by Audreynachrome at 7:47 AM on May 8 [15 favorites]
I think part of the problem with this is that 7 months is an awful long time for a single event, and perhaps the years before it were not super chill.
posted by Audreynachrome at 7:47 AM on May 8 [15 favorites]
You said that the claim that Palestinian doctors who are treating Palestinian children said that the children are underplaying their pain because of the trauma they are experiencing is "hooey", because of something that happens after a single traumatic experience. Which completely ignores the lifetime of trauma these kids have experienced before the war started.
Gaza is a fantastic distraction for the West
My tax dollars are being used to buy bombs to execute a genocide. I'm sorry, don't come in here and lecture us about 'distractions'.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 7:48 AM on May 8 [23 favorites]
Gaza is a fantastic distraction for the West
My tax dollars are being used to buy bombs to execute a genocide. I'm sorry, don't come in here and lecture us about 'distractions'.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 7:48 AM on May 8 [23 favorites]
don't come in here and lecture us about 'distractions'
kk the thread is up, that was the point, I'll bow out then as I certainly lack to savvy to keep up in these threads. I have made these comments in earnest hope of contributing not only to the overall discussion but also towards any sort of potential solution.
posted by human ecologist at 7:49 AM on May 8
kk the thread is up, that was the point, I'll bow out then as I certainly lack to savvy to keep up in these threads. I have made these comments in earnest hope of contributing not only to the overall discussion but also towards any sort of potential solution.
posted by human ecologist at 7:49 AM on May 8
both sides consider themselves the aggrieved party and justified in doing war crimes
Fortunately they're not equal in capacity to commit war crimes. We can drastically reduce the amount of war crimes, harm minimisation, by reducing the more powerful by orders of magnitudes side's capacity. Practically, politically, economically, however we can.
posted by Audreynachrome at 7:50 AM on May 8 [12 favorites]
Fortunately they're not equal in capacity to commit war crimes. We can drastically reduce the amount of war crimes, harm minimisation, by reducing the more powerful by orders of magnitudes side's capacity. Practically, politically, economically, however we can.
posted by Audreynachrome at 7:50 AM on May 8 [12 favorites]
Preventing all wars is definitely a dream. Heck of it is, we can't even get those in power to agree to a ceasefire. The urge to minimise and normalise the horror is too great. Usually I can tell myself it's because it's so 'far away' but what's apparent is even when the matter is brought close to home it's to no avail (yet) because the first misapprehension is assuming everyone agrees that at the very least no one's lives is more important than another when clearly, despite the whole daily parade of massacres, this isn't the case.
The other thing related to that far-awayness has to be the difficulty to reorient the focus that at the very least to the Palestinians, Oct 8 isn't the start of something new. If there's an incubation phase for trauma, Day 0 was way before 2023, a year that was already seen, in a Save the Children report dated October 6, as the deadliest year for Palestinian children yet (in the West Bank!)
So there's no reason to call bunk, I don't think. The wartime behaviour is generational.
posted by cendawanita at 7:56 AM on May 8 [4 favorites]
The other thing related to that far-awayness has to be the difficulty to reorient the focus that at the very least to the Palestinians, Oct 8 isn't the start of something new. If there's an incubation phase for trauma, Day 0 was way before 2023, a year that was already seen, in a Save the Children report dated October 6, as the deadliest year for Palestinian children yet (in the West Bank!)
So there's no reason to call bunk, I don't think. The wartime behaviour is generational.
posted by cendawanita at 7:56 AM on May 8 [4 favorites]
Thank you for starting a new thread.
Additionally I'm very sorry for your loss, Press.
Things I bookmarked recently:
Living as a Palestinian in Israel (Zeteo/Substack) - Israel’s violence has become so commonplace that Israeli soldiers openly brag about killing, wounding, maiming, and torturing Palestinians on social media. Israeli soldiers, who have learned there are no repercussions for their actions, film themselves dedicating the blowing up of Gaza buildings to their children, proposing marriage against the backdrop of Palestinian homes and buildings reduced to rubble, writing “save the date” notices on bombed houses, and gleefully playing with the lingerie of Palestinian women. Killing Palestinians earns Israelis bragging rights, and dating apps are filled with pictures of men brandishing weapons and showing themselves in combat in Gaza.
Meta's Oversight Board announces new cases on posts that include "from the river to the sea" - the board is inviting public comment on whether these posts constitute a violation of Meta's Community Standards.
Red Lines - a report on retaliation in the media industry during the war on Gaza - from the National Writers Union.
The Prospect argues that the US is responsible for the Israel/Palestine conflict due to its decision in 1924 to enact the Johnson-Reed Act, which restricted the number of immigrants to the US drastically due to xenophobia against Jews and Catholics.
posted by toastyk at 7:59 AM on May 8 [11 favorites]
Additionally I'm very sorry for your loss, Press.
Things I bookmarked recently:
Living as a Palestinian in Israel (Zeteo/Substack) - Israel’s violence has become so commonplace that Israeli soldiers openly brag about killing, wounding, maiming, and torturing Palestinians on social media. Israeli soldiers, who have learned there are no repercussions for their actions, film themselves dedicating the blowing up of Gaza buildings to their children, proposing marriage against the backdrop of Palestinian homes and buildings reduced to rubble, writing “save the date” notices on bombed houses, and gleefully playing with the lingerie of Palestinian women. Killing Palestinians earns Israelis bragging rights, and dating apps are filled with pictures of men brandishing weapons and showing themselves in combat in Gaza.
Meta's Oversight Board announces new cases on posts that include "from the river to the sea" - the board is inviting public comment on whether these posts constitute a violation of Meta's Community Standards.
Red Lines - a report on retaliation in the media industry during the war on Gaza - from the National Writers Union.
The Prospect argues that the US is responsible for the Israel/Palestine conflict due to its decision in 1924 to enact the Johnson-Reed Act, which restricted the number of immigrants to the US drastically due to xenophobia against Jews and Catholics.
posted by toastyk at 7:59 AM on May 8 [11 favorites]
From that Prospect article, reminded me that before Zionism really went into a strategic direction that maintained a belligerent relationship with the local neighbours, the early Zionists would go so far, in trying to find cultural affinity and community, as adopting the local dress and indigenize themselves, to paraphrase that link from the National Library of Israel (so please take it up with them, anyone who wants to insist on their indigeneity).
posted by cendawanita at 8:13 AM on May 8 [5 favorites]
posted by cendawanita at 8:13 AM on May 8 [5 favorites]
Cendawanita, you just reminded me that while I was browsing celeb gossip today, apparently Eurovision regretted one of their contestants wearing a keffiyeh, which was apparently a "pro-Palestinian symbol".
posted by toastyk at 8:31 AM on May 8 [4 favorites]
posted by toastyk at 8:31 AM on May 8 [4 favorites]
Remember when rachel ray wore one for a dunkin donuts and the right wing had a fit and called her a jihadi and then dunkin donuts pulled the ad?
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 8:34 AM on May 8 [7 favorites]
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 8:34 AM on May 8 [7 favorites]
It was even dumber than that because it wasn't even a keffiyeh, it was just a scarf!
posted by toastyk at 8:39 AM on May 8 [6 favorites]
posted by toastyk at 8:39 AM on May 8 [6 favorites]
Didn't Eurovision also censored the shots of the Ireland singer because they had Oggish script spelling out Free Palestine as well? Meanwhile Israel could sing a coded song about Hurricanes. 😃🙃
This is my unsurprised face: (Haaretz) Revealed | Netanyahu Pushed for Rafah Offensive Last Week, Israel's War Cabinet Opposed -
Several of Prime Minister Netanyahu's actions hint an ulterior motive of delaying a deal. His office denied such allegations, but while Israeli officials assessed that Hamas was close to agreeing to the proposal, Netanyahu started preparing for a military operation in Rafah despite the war cabinet's objection
A source with knowledge on the details said that everyone present at the meeting, including the war cabinet ministers and professionals, objected to Netanyahu's proposal, and it was rejected.
When the attendees were polled for their opinions, some said that a Rafah operation would put an end to the negotiations with Hamas, and others said that no such decision should be taken without a plan for Gaza's future or because of U.S. objections to an operation in the city. Netanyahu's proposal casts doubts on the claims by the Prime Minister's Office that he did not raise difficulties against reaching a deal out of political interests.
(...) At the meeting two weeks ago, war cabinet members were asked to decide Israel's position in the current round of negotiations. One particularly sensitive question was at the center: what is the minimum number of hostages that Israel would agree to a deal for their release.
The meeting set a different number from the 33 hostages that would be released in the deal's first stage, which has been openly discussed. Due to the sensitivity of the decision, and its possible effect on the negotiations if it had become public, it was decided not to submit it to the expanded cabinet that convened later that day.
But, as reported by Israeli news site Ynet, at the start of the expanded cabinet meeting, Finance Minister Bezalel Smotrich presented the secret information. Shortly afterward, partial information about the minimum number of hostages that Israel would accept in a deal was leaked to the media.
Some military and diplomatic sources believe that Netanyahu told Smotrich about the confidential details, who then leaked them to sabotage the negotiations. According to information obtained by Haaretz, and published here for the first time, Netanyahu met Smotrich between the war cabinet meeting and the expanded cabinet meeting.
In the past few days, hostages' relatives, as well as Netanyahu's coalition partners, have criticized his conduct, claiming that he is delaying the negotiations for a deal. On Saturday, after Netanyahu declared – as a "political source" – that the army would launch an operation in Rafah whether or not there would be a deal, Gantz said in response, "I suggest to the 'political sources' and to all decision-makers to wait for official updates, act responsibly and don't get hysterical over political considerations."
Wind-shifting at least in the liberal spaces, idk, but even someone like Fania Oz-Salzberger (known for hits like, how can it be genocide since not everybody is dead, and Hamas only understands the language of force) is now saying things like Israel should have worked on hostage release and then getting rid of Hamas through diplomatic means.
Who knows, eventually we might get to the point where reality converges again and I can at least state my skepticism with Israeli public statements with regards to ceasefire or Palestinian self-determination or just the fact that they are also people without having to come up with a list of citations in reply to those who'd rather imagine 4-dimensional chess moves.
Anyway, still Haaretz: Majority of Israelis Prioritize Hamas Hostage Deal Over Rafah Operation, IDI Poll Finds -
An Israel Democracy Institute poll shows that 56 percent of Israeli Jews and 88 percent of Arabs believe that Israel should prioritize a hostage deal over a Rafah offensive – most of them identified with political left or center views, while the right prefers a military assault by a thin margin
In the meantime, BBC: Battles in east Rafah as Israel reopens key Kerem Shalom aid crossing
However, a UN agency said no supplies had entered through the crossing yet.
The UN had expressed alarm on Tuesday over what it called Israel's "choking off" of Gaza's two main aid arteries, after Israeli troops took full control of the Palestinian side of the nearby Rafah crossing with Egypt.
(...) The military also said the recently reopened Erez crossing with northern Gaza was continuing to operate.
However, the UN aid agency for Palestinian refugees, Unrwa - which is the largest humanitarian organisation in Gaza - reported that it had not received any Gaza aid via Kerem Shalom or Rafah, which remains closed.
"We're not receiving any aid into the Gaza Strip, the Rafah crossing area has ongoing military operations - there have been continued bombardments in this area throughout the day," said Scott Anderson, senior deputy director of Unrwa affairs in Gaza.
"No fuel or aid has entered into Gaza Strip and this is disastrous for the humanitarian response."
Huh: (Saudi Gazette) Saudi Arabia calls for international intervention to stop Gaza genocide and targeting of Rafah (also on AA)
HuffPost: Palestinians Ordered By Israel To Flee Rafah Have Nowhere Better To Go -
“The negligence and the arrogance and the lack of accountability is manifesting itself into the last neighborhood of the Gaza Strip," an evacuated American says.
posted by cendawanita at 8:46 AM on May 8 [14 favorites]
This is my unsurprised face: (Haaretz) Revealed | Netanyahu Pushed for Rafah Offensive Last Week, Israel's War Cabinet Opposed -
Several of Prime Minister Netanyahu's actions hint an ulterior motive of delaying a deal. His office denied such allegations, but while Israeli officials assessed that Hamas was close to agreeing to the proposal, Netanyahu started preparing for a military operation in Rafah despite the war cabinet's objection
A source with knowledge on the details said that everyone present at the meeting, including the war cabinet ministers and professionals, objected to Netanyahu's proposal, and it was rejected.
When the attendees were polled for their opinions, some said that a Rafah operation would put an end to the negotiations with Hamas, and others said that no such decision should be taken without a plan for Gaza's future or because of U.S. objections to an operation in the city. Netanyahu's proposal casts doubts on the claims by the Prime Minister's Office that he did not raise difficulties against reaching a deal out of political interests.
(...) At the meeting two weeks ago, war cabinet members were asked to decide Israel's position in the current round of negotiations. One particularly sensitive question was at the center: what is the minimum number of hostages that Israel would agree to a deal for their release.
The meeting set a different number from the 33 hostages that would be released in the deal's first stage, which has been openly discussed. Due to the sensitivity of the decision, and its possible effect on the negotiations if it had become public, it was decided not to submit it to the expanded cabinet that convened later that day.
But, as reported by Israeli news site Ynet, at the start of the expanded cabinet meeting, Finance Minister Bezalel Smotrich presented the secret information. Shortly afterward, partial information about the minimum number of hostages that Israel would accept in a deal was leaked to the media.
Some military and diplomatic sources believe that Netanyahu told Smotrich about the confidential details, who then leaked them to sabotage the negotiations. According to information obtained by Haaretz, and published here for the first time, Netanyahu met Smotrich between the war cabinet meeting and the expanded cabinet meeting.
In the past few days, hostages' relatives, as well as Netanyahu's coalition partners, have criticized his conduct, claiming that he is delaying the negotiations for a deal. On Saturday, after Netanyahu declared – as a "political source" – that the army would launch an operation in Rafah whether or not there would be a deal, Gantz said in response, "I suggest to the 'political sources' and to all decision-makers to wait for official updates, act responsibly and don't get hysterical over political considerations."
Wind-shifting at least in the liberal spaces, idk, but even someone like Fania Oz-Salzberger (known for hits like, how can it be genocide since not everybody is dead, and Hamas only understands the language of force) is now saying things like Israel should have worked on hostage release and then getting rid of Hamas through diplomatic means.
Who knows, eventually we might get to the point where reality converges again and I can at least state my skepticism with Israeli public statements with regards to ceasefire or Palestinian self-determination or just the fact that they are also people without having to come up with a list of citations in reply to those who'd rather imagine 4-dimensional chess moves.
Anyway, still Haaretz: Majority of Israelis Prioritize Hamas Hostage Deal Over Rafah Operation, IDI Poll Finds -
An Israel Democracy Institute poll shows that 56 percent of Israeli Jews and 88 percent of Arabs believe that Israel should prioritize a hostage deal over a Rafah offensive – most of them identified with political left or center views, while the right prefers a military assault by a thin margin
In the meantime, BBC: Battles in east Rafah as Israel reopens key Kerem Shalom aid crossing
However, a UN agency said no supplies had entered through the crossing yet.
The UN had expressed alarm on Tuesday over what it called Israel's "choking off" of Gaza's two main aid arteries, after Israeli troops took full control of the Palestinian side of the nearby Rafah crossing with Egypt.
(...) The military also said the recently reopened Erez crossing with northern Gaza was continuing to operate.
However, the UN aid agency for Palestinian refugees, Unrwa - which is the largest humanitarian organisation in Gaza - reported that it had not received any Gaza aid via Kerem Shalom or Rafah, which remains closed.
"We're not receiving any aid into the Gaza Strip, the Rafah crossing area has ongoing military operations - there have been continued bombardments in this area throughout the day," said Scott Anderson, senior deputy director of Unrwa affairs in Gaza.
"No fuel or aid has entered into Gaza Strip and this is disastrous for the humanitarian response."
Huh: (Saudi Gazette) Saudi Arabia calls for international intervention to stop Gaza genocide and targeting of Rafah (also on AA)
HuffPost: Palestinians Ordered By Israel To Flee Rafah Have Nowhere Better To Go -
“The negligence and the arrogance and the lack of accountability is manifesting itself into the last neighborhood of the Gaza Strip," an evacuated American says.
posted by cendawanita at 8:46 AM on May 8 [14 favorites]
(Derail, but
Ethnic cleansing and genocide? The US hasn't done those on American soil within living memory.
is not quite accurate. Residential schools and other policies toward Native Americans that have been deemed genocidal in at least some jurisdictions have occurred within living memory. And if you include territories as US soil, wholesale relocation of some Pacifc Island populations also falls into that time frame. Though most Americans probably wouldn’t think about the territories, or even Puerto Rico, stupidly, as being “American soil” I guess. We do like our non-empire self-image.)
posted by eviemath at 9:37 AM on May 8 [18 favorites]
Ethnic cleansing and genocide? The US hasn't done those on American soil within living memory.
is not quite accurate. Residential schools and other policies toward Native Americans that have been deemed genocidal in at least some jurisdictions have occurred within living memory. And if you include territories as US soil, wholesale relocation of some Pacifc Island populations also falls into that time frame. Though most Americans probably wouldn’t think about the territories, or even Puerto Rico, stupidly, as being “American soil” I guess. We do like our non-empire self-image.)
posted by eviemath at 9:37 AM on May 8 [18 favorites]
to contribute to the 'living memory' statement -
The US 1) forcibly relocated the indigenous Marshall Island populations off of their islands in the 1950s, 2) nuked the islands, 3) relocated them back to the islands so they could 4) study the longterm effects of nuclear radiation on humans
it wasn't until the mid 80's following multiple appeals by the elected representative of the islands that Greenpeace, not the US government, helped relocate the survivors following studies that demonstrated extremely high rates of thyroid cancer
there are still living survivors of the US's accidental little ethnic cleansing of the islands and subsequent continuing of a not-even-during-war human rights abuse inflicted on its colonies
when it comes to war crimes and ethnic cleansing, it's safe to assume that the US is perpetuating it continually and doing it in secret everywhere. you might consider, for example, the continued legacy of redlining and anti-desegregation efforts in the form of newly-discovered Superfund sites in formerly-predominantly-Black-now-gentrifying areas and the Flint water crisis along with the still disproportionate incarceration and brutalization of Black populations as part of a larger effort to ethnically cleanse Black Americans from white-settled lands. it's not fun to frame it in such a way but the qualitative differences between that project and, say, the cultural genocide of Uighurs in China share many similar traits such as mass sterilizations, forced labor, etc
posted by paimapi at 10:35 AM on May 8 [18 favorites]
The US 1) forcibly relocated the indigenous Marshall Island populations off of their islands in the 1950s, 2) nuked the islands, 3) relocated them back to the islands so they could 4) study the longterm effects of nuclear radiation on humans
it wasn't until the mid 80's following multiple appeals by the elected representative of the islands that Greenpeace, not the US government, helped relocate the survivors following studies that demonstrated extremely high rates of thyroid cancer
there are still living survivors of the US's accidental little ethnic cleansing of the islands and subsequent continuing of a not-even-during-war human rights abuse inflicted on its colonies
when it comes to war crimes and ethnic cleansing, it's safe to assume that the US is perpetuating it continually and doing it in secret everywhere. you might consider, for example, the continued legacy of redlining and anti-desegregation efforts in the form of newly-discovered Superfund sites in formerly-predominantly-Black-now-gentrifying areas and the Flint water crisis along with the still disproportionate incarceration and brutalization of Black populations as part of a larger effort to ethnically cleanse Black Americans from white-settled lands. it's not fun to frame it in such a way but the qualitative differences between that project and, say, the cultural genocide of Uighurs in China share many similar traits such as mass sterilizations, forced labor, etc
posted by paimapi at 10:35 AM on May 8 [18 favorites]
I don't know about you guys but I for one am super grateful this thread has turned into a deep discussion of the United States' history of war crimes and genocide.
posted by Jarcat at 12:08 PM on May 8 [13 favorites]
posted by Jarcat at 12:08 PM on May 8 [13 favorites]
Gaza’s Unexploded-Bomb Crisis (The New Yorker, intervew, 2024-05-08)
How would you compare the challenges in Gaza to Ukraine?posted by kmt at 12:36 PM on May 8 [4 favorites]
The Ukrainian front line is about six hundred miles long, and in Gaza the front line is twenty-five miles long. According to estimates by unep and U.N.-Habitat, there’s more rubble—thirty-seven million tons—in Gaza than in Ukraine.
Jarcat: i think it's a useful reminder, honestly, and it doesn't seem to be turning into a particularly big derail.
posted by adrienneleigh at 12:58 PM on May 8 [5 favorites]
posted by adrienneleigh at 12:58 PM on May 8 [5 favorites]
I'm so sorry, Press Butt.on to Check.
posted by doctornemo at 1:43 PM on May 8
posted by doctornemo at 1:43 PM on May 8
Assuming we are going to keep going on this planet as a viable member of the biosphere, the current administration is going to look well, very bad. Very evil. Biden (whom I supported up until this horrifying debacle) is going to be remembered as an inhuman genocide-enabling monster. And he deserves it. Our country is so fucked up in so many ways, but this has to be a nadir.
posted by WatTylerJr at 2:21 PM on May 8 [4 favorites]
posted by WatTylerJr at 2:21 PM on May 8 [4 favorites]
the past decade has been a reality check
I'm sure to post in MeFi today, tomorrow, whatever
but everything feels like a postscript
do what you can, while you can
posted by elkevelvet at 2:35 PM on May 8 [3 favorites]
I'm sure to post in MeFi today, tomorrow, whatever
but everything feels like a postscript
do what you can, while you can
posted by elkevelvet at 2:35 PM on May 8 [3 favorites]
the casual acceptance of the US's complicity in and continual perpetuation of war crimes and genocide by its civilian population is a straight line to its complicity and continual propping up of a settler state committing a genocide and ethnic cleansing, yes? given how similar the methods of propaganda are for erasing the well-documented existence of mass killings and disproportionate military responses to much smaller and less-well-coordinated-and-funded attacks
ethnonationalism at home in the US is almost a 1:1 mirror for it in Israel especially when looking back at the incredibly racist, ill-excused response to 9/11 that led to hundreds of thousands of dead Iraqis. the fact that Israel claims that its ethnic cleansing of Palestinians is the 'most humane' and 'precisely targeted' military incursion is almost solely based on the fact that the US military somehow had a worse ratio of civilian-to-combatants killed. during our invasion of Iraq at least 77% of the deaths that occurred were those of civilians. and Bush Jr. of course has a redemption arc painting ugly pictures in our popular imagination
think about how little you feel now about the war crimes committed en masse only a few decades ago by our government. think about how covered up the atrocities were that you could call this current state the 'nadir' of the US. as Garfield is fond of saying, you are not immune to propaganda
if Israel is a genocidal colonizer state then the US is its much worse father enacting worse violence with even less legitimacy for its continued existence and I say that unironically. our reality is that of an extremely ugly dystopian one in dire need of radical reinvention
posted by paimapi at 2:40 PM on May 8 [9 favorites]
ethnonationalism at home in the US is almost a 1:1 mirror for it in Israel especially when looking back at the incredibly racist, ill-excused response to 9/11 that led to hundreds of thousands of dead Iraqis. the fact that Israel claims that its ethnic cleansing of Palestinians is the 'most humane' and 'precisely targeted' military incursion is almost solely based on the fact that the US military somehow had a worse ratio of civilian-to-combatants killed. during our invasion of Iraq at least 77% of the deaths that occurred were those of civilians. and Bush Jr. of course has a redemption arc painting ugly pictures in our popular imagination
think about how little you feel now about the war crimes committed en masse only a few decades ago by our government. think about how covered up the atrocities were that you could call this current state the 'nadir' of the US. as Garfield is fond of saying, you are not immune to propaganda
if Israel is a genocidal colonizer state then the US is its much worse father enacting worse violence with even less legitimacy for its continued existence and I say that unironically. our reality is that of an extremely ugly dystopian one in dire need of radical reinvention
posted by paimapi at 2:40 PM on May 8 [9 favorites]
and the Flint water crisis.
interesting. actually became defensive at the comment. it's as if it is a knee-jerk reaction because I was poisoned by that water for years. I remember the day it happened, Dr Mona, whom I consider a hero, would take a walk at lunch right by my house a couple days a week and one day she was walking twice as fast and had about 15 people following her and I knew something was up. the news broke that night.
from a story last year.
"I literally see it as an infusion of joy. Hope is hard to find in places like Flint, not only because of what we’ve gone through in the last years but because of the longstanding inequities and longstanding lost trust in government and in institutions designed to keep people safe and healthy."
– Dr. Mona Hanna-Attisha.
this is one of the main reasons I sort of centered on the water situation in Gaza and Israel for that matter in the past threads cuz I think it's extremely important to realize the dire situation with its water and sewage infrastructure in the region.
I fully understand racial inequity and environmental racism concerning the flint water crisis but I would not even dare to compare it to the situation in Gaza. We were lucky because the soldiers that came handed out water. If it makes anybody feel any better Trump came to Flint when he was campaigning, was told not to get political he did it anyways, and was promptly shut the f*** right down which he apologized for and slunk away.
posted by clavdivs at 3:04 PM on May 8 [4 favorites]
interesting. actually became defensive at the comment. it's as if it is a knee-jerk reaction because I was poisoned by that water for years. I remember the day it happened, Dr Mona, whom I consider a hero, would take a walk at lunch right by my house a couple days a week and one day she was walking twice as fast and had about 15 people following her and I knew something was up. the news broke that night.
from a story last year.
"I literally see it as an infusion of joy. Hope is hard to find in places like Flint, not only because of what we’ve gone through in the last years but because of the longstanding inequities and longstanding lost trust in government and in institutions designed to keep people safe and healthy."
– Dr. Mona Hanna-Attisha.
this is one of the main reasons I sort of centered on the water situation in Gaza and Israel for that matter in the past threads cuz I think it's extremely important to realize the dire situation with its water and sewage infrastructure in the region.
I fully understand racial inequity and environmental racism concerning the flint water crisis but I would not even dare to compare it to the situation in Gaza. We were lucky because the soldiers that came handed out water. If it makes anybody feel any better Trump came to Flint when he was campaigning, was told not to get political he did it anyways, and was promptly shut the f*** right down which he apologized for and slunk away.
posted by clavdivs at 3:04 PM on May 8 [4 favorites]
From CNN:
posted by Justinian at 3:20 PM on May 8 [2 favorites]
Biden says he will stop sending bombs and artillery shells to Israel if they launch major invasion of RafahWe'll see. Netanyahu seems dead set on going in full bore and there's a bunch of wiggle room with the "major" invasion caveat but saying it on camera must be a deliberate message to Netanyahu.
posted by Justinian at 3:20 PM on May 8 [2 favorites]
CNN exclusive:
President Joe Biden said for the first time Wednesday he would halt shipments of American weapons to Israel – which he acknowledged have been used to kill civilians in Gaza – if Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu orders a major invasion of the city of Rafah.
“Civilians have been killed in Gaza as a consequence of those bombs and other ways in which they go after population centers,” Biden told CNN’s Erin Burnett in an exclusive interview on “Erin Burnett OutFront,” referring to 2,000-pound bombs that Biden paused shipments of last week.
posted by toastyk at 3:21 PM on May 8 [4 favorites]
President Joe Biden said for the first time Wednesday he would halt shipments of American weapons to Israel – which he acknowledged have been used to kill civilians in Gaza – if Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu orders a major invasion of the city of Rafah.
“Civilians have been killed in Gaza as a consequence of those bombs and other ways in which they go after population centers,” Biden told CNN’s Erin Burnett in an exclusive interview on “Erin Burnett OutFront,” referring to 2,000-pound bombs that Biden paused shipments of last week.
posted by toastyk at 3:21 PM on May 8 [4 favorites]
I would not even dare to compare it to the situation in Gaza.
I don't doubt that conditions Israel has created in the West Bank are substantially worse for Palestinians
I doubt mostly that Biden or any elected will actually do anything about it since the US treats it's own marginalized citizens so poorly and has an even worse record of war crimes inflicted onto other civilian populations throughout past to recent history
voting and democracy, supposedly a cure all, hasn't truly led to better outcomes. to expect Biden to be better is a bit of scam, imo - it was Obama's categorization of teenagers into military aged males to justify his hundreds of drone strikes and thousands of dead civilians that radicalized me, after all - only organizing has led to local changes, resulting in divestments and such and I would hope that people put their energy less into stumping for the less worse war criminal and more into getting involved with leftist movement building where they can
posted by paimapi at 3:32 PM on May 8 [5 favorites]
I don't doubt that conditions Israel has created in the West Bank are substantially worse for Palestinians
I doubt mostly that Biden or any elected will actually do anything about it since the US treats it's own marginalized citizens so poorly and has an even worse record of war crimes inflicted onto other civilian populations throughout past to recent history
voting and democracy, supposedly a cure all, hasn't truly led to better outcomes. to expect Biden to be better is a bit of scam, imo - it was Obama's categorization of teenagers into military aged males to justify his hundreds of drone strikes and thousands of dead civilians that radicalized me, after all - only organizing has led to local changes, resulting in divestments and such and I would hope that people put their energy less into stumping for the less worse war criminal and more into getting involved with leftist movement building where they can
posted by paimapi at 3:32 PM on May 8 [5 favorites]
I don't think voting and democracy was ever supposed to be a cure-all. It's necessary but not sufficient for there to be justice.
posted by Justinian at 3:36 PM on May 8 [7 favorites]
posted by Justinian at 3:36 PM on May 8 [7 favorites]
Tree and forest.
I would not even dare to compare it to the situation in Gaza.I don't doubt that conditions Israel has created in the West Bank are substantially worse for Palestinians
maybe I missed the forest in the comment but what does this have to do with the Flint water crisis. lead lines, the response?
if it is, I'll refer to Justinian's comment. action have been taken, health measures in place, people have gone to jail.
posted by clavdivs at 4:03 PM on May 8
I would not even dare to compare it to the situation in Gaza.I don't doubt that conditions Israel has created in the West Bank are substantially worse for Palestinians
maybe I missed the forest in the comment but what does this have to do with the Flint water crisis. lead lines, the response?
if it is, I'll refer to Justinian's comment. action have been taken, health measures in place, people have gone to jail.
posted by clavdivs at 4:03 PM on May 8
So, that report on whether Israel has violated humanitarian law that was "delayed"? It's been effectively quashed because Biden apparently can't have the evidence of Israeli war crimes coming out in an official report, because then he'd have to do something about them.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 4:09 PM on May 8 [11 favorites]
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 4:09 PM on May 8 [11 favorites]
Fwiw the timeline of that article is building off of the Politico one and things have looked not so certain since - before I went to sleep the goss post-this news was that the arms pause was a strategic leak to make it look like Biden was doing something without actually doing anything (basically the last 7 months) but I woke up to him actually saying something so we may be looking to the same kind of phone call (that apparently shouldn't work) post-WCK7 that opened the Erez crossing for aid. But circumstances have changed with regards to the Israeli war cabinet, I don't know if there's any leeway there anymore. Bibi's running out of rope. In the meantime Palestinians are finding kids crushed under the rubble in the Rafah strikes (that is to say, the big deal is a major ground invasion, but air strikes and select tanks have rolled in).
posted by cendawanita at 4:22 PM on May 8 [3 favorites]
posted by cendawanita at 4:22 PM on May 8 [3 favorites]
I expect that the report from State is delayed until they see whether Israel goes heavily into Rafah. If they do the report can miraculously be found and therefore Biden would, heart heavy, have no legal choice but to curtail military aid. If Israel instead doesn't go full blown invasion and maybe even reaches a temporary ceasefire agreement, the report stays in purgatory. Schroedinger's War Crimes Report.
posted by Justinian at 4:52 PM on May 8 [8 favorites]
posted by Justinian at 4:52 PM on May 8 [8 favorites]
Kind of painful that Biden’s red line is apparently a ground invasion of Rafah but like famine is still a thing, access to medical care is hard, schooling is presumably barely happening, etc. even if a ground invasion doesn’t happen. Sigh. I guess better than nothing but it still makes me sad.
posted by R343L at 5:00 PM on May 8 [7 favorites]
posted by R343L at 5:00 PM on May 8 [7 favorites]
Theoretically the USN's floating aid pier should be online very soon. I know folks here are skeptical about it but we'll find out soon enough.
posted by Justinian at 6:15 PM on May 8
posted by Justinian at 6:15 PM on May 8
Wasn't shared earlier, but within this press release: (OHCHR) Onslaught of violence against women and children in Gaza unacceptable: UN experts - it's noted that, “We are horrified at details emerging from mass graves recently unearthed in the Gaza Strip. Over 390 bodies have been discovered at Nasser and Al Shifa hospitals, including of women and children, with many reportedly showing signs of torture and summary executions, and potential instances of people buried alive,” the experts said.
And yesterday (SCMP, posting AFP): 49 bodies found at ‘third mass grave’ at al-Shifa hospital, Palestinian officials say
So far, 520 bodies have been recovered from seven mass graves found at three different hospitals across Gaza in recent weeks, Gaza’s Civil Defence agency said
The Hill has a slightly earlier report but with more background details.
Other new reports:
- Joint report (PDF): ONE MONTH AFTER ISRAEL’S SEVEN COMMITMENTS ON HUMANITARIAN ACCESS: THE REALITIES ON THE GROUND AS RAFAH MILITARY OFFENSIVE UNFOLDS - by Oxfam, CARE International, Médecins du Monde, Plan International, Humanity and Inclusion, Save The Children, Norwegian Refugee Council
The Israeli authorities have not implemented the pledged commitments they made on April 6, 2024, following the killing of seven World Central Kitchen (WCK) staff, to facilitate increased humanitarian access in the Gaza Strip. Humanitarian actors see no significant improvement from Israeli authorities in addressing the dire challenges to provide life-saving aid for Gaza’s 2.3 million residents, including those in northern Gaza
L who according to the World Food Programme’s (WFP) Executive Director Cindy McCain are living under a “full-blown famine.” The current situation is expected to deteriorate even further as Israeli forces issue “evacuation” orders to more than 100,000 civilians in parts of Rafah and should the Israeli military ground offensive on Rafah move forward. No aid entered Gaza through the Rafah crossing on May 5 and no aid entered Gaza through either Rafah or Kerem Shalom /Karam Abu Salem crossings on May 6, 2024
- HRW : West Bank: Israeli Forces’ Unlawful Killings of Palestinians -
Lethal Shootings Show Disregard for Legal Standards
* Israeli security forces have unlawfully used lethal force in fatal shootings of Palestinians, including deliberately executing Palestinians who posed no apparent security threat, based on documentation of several cases since 2022.
* The United Nations reported that such killings are now taking place at a level without recent precedent in an environment in which those responsible need not fear the Israeli government will hold them accountable.
* Governments should support the International Criminal Court’s probe into serious crimes committed in Palestine and impose targeted sanctions against those responsible for grave abuses.
(Not mentioned as one of the anecdotes, is this one as per this extensive BBC reporting: Israel accused of possible war crime over killing of West Bank boy - with video analysis)
- Declassified UK: How Britain shields Israel from war crime charges -
Exclusive: The Conservatives have repeatedly protected Israeli politicians, spies and soldiers from being arrested for war crimes when they visit Britain, a new list reveals.
- (This is 2 weeks old) Hosted on Just Security (by Noura Erakat and Josh Paul): Report of the Independent Task Force on National Security Memorandum-20 Regarding Israel
The Task Force, which has worked on a voluntary basis, consists of experts on U.S. and international law, U.S. security assistance, and U.S. military best practices. For the past two months, we have combed through thousands of lines of data from credible nongovernmental organizations, ranging from human rights watchdogs to aid organizations working on the ground in Gaza.
The final report features sixteen clear, credible, and compelling incidents that should certainly be included in the administration’s upcoming reporting to Congress as well as an 18-page appendix of additional incidents worthy of examination. It also identifies multiple restrictions on humanitarian assistance, including strikes by the IDF, that trigger Section 620I of the Foreign Assistance Act (which bars military assistance to states impeding U.S. humanitarian aid) and should be reportable to Congress by the Departments of State and/or Defense under the terms of NSM-20.
Our findings were striking. Though Israel has attributed the 34,000 Palestinian casualties, 70 percent of whom are women and children, to alleged human shielding by Hamas, we found that in 11 out of the 16 incidents we analyzed, Israel did not even publicly identity a military target or attempt to justify the strike. Of the remaining five incidents, Israel publicly named targets with verification in two incidents, but no precautionary warning was given and we assess the anticipated civilian harm was known and excessive.
- (Seems interesting; on media ownership affecting bias) Prospect: Who really funds the Jewish Chronicle? Why it’s troubling that we don’t know…
- The Nation: Who Is Funding Canary Mission? Inside the Doxxing Operation Targeting Anti-Zionist Students and Professors
- Greens Australia (press release only): Australia exported $1.5 million worth of weapons to Israel in February 2024, fresh DFAT data shows
- (toastyk iirc shared this in previous thread, but might as well) Bellingcat: “We’ve Become Addicted to Explosions” The IDF Unit Responsible for Demolishing Homes Across Gaza (basically an OSINT multimedia report thanks to the warcrime scrapbooking habit of IDF soldiers)
---
Heh: (Haaretz) Israeli Justice Minister: Most of What I Know About the War Is From Al Jazeera -
According to Israel Hayom, right-wing judicial coup architect Yariv Levin told the hostages' families that he watches the Qatari station, which the government recently shuttered in Israel
This April 21 piece by Trita Parsi in NYT feels worth a revisit: Biden’s Small Win — and Bigger Failure — in the Middle East
posted by cendawanita at 6:24 PM on May 8 [14 favorites]
And yesterday (SCMP, posting AFP): 49 bodies found at ‘third mass grave’ at al-Shifa hospital, Palestinian officials say
So far, 520 bodies have been recovered from seven mass graves found at three different hospitals across Gaza in recent weeks, Gaza’s Civil Defence agency said
The Hill has a slightly earlier report but with more background details.
Other new reports:
- Joint report (PDF): ONE MONTH AFTER ISRAEL’S SEVEN COMMITMENTS ON HUMANITARIAN ACCESS: THE REALITIES ON THE GROUND AS RAFAH MILITARY OFFENSIVE UNFOLDS - by Oxfam, CARE International, Médecins du Monde, Plan International, Humanity and Inclusion, Save The Children, Norwegian Refugee Council
The Israeli authorities have not implemented the pledged commitments they made on April 6, 2024, following the killing of seven World Central Kitchen (WCK) staff, to facilitate increased humanitarian access in the Gaza Strip. Humanitarian actors see no significant improvement from Israeli authorities in addressing the dire challenges to provide life-saving aid for Gaza’s 2.3 million residents, including those in northern Gaza
L who according to the World Food Programme’s (WFP) Executive Director Cindy McCain are living under a “full-blown famine.” The current situation is expected to deteriorate even further as Israeli forces issue “evacuation” orders to more than 100,000 civilians in parts of Rafah and should the Israeli military ground offensive on Rafah move forward. No aid entered Gaza through the Rafah crossing on May 5 and no aid entered Gaza through either Rafah or Kerem Shalom /Karam Abu Salem crossings on May 6, 2024
- HRW : West Bank: Israeli Forces’ Unlawful Killings of Palestinians -
Lethal Shootings Show Disregard for Legal Standards
* Israeli security forces have unlawfully used lethal force in fatal shootings of Palestinians, including deliberately executing Palestinians who posed no apparent security threat, based on documentation of several cases since 2022.
* The United Nations reported that such killings are now taking place at a level without recent precedent in an environment in which those responsible need not fear the Israeli government will hold them accountable.
* Governments should support the International Criminal Court’s probe into serious crimes committed in Palestine and impose targeted sanctions against those responsible for grave abuses.
(Not mentioned as one of the anecdotes, is this one as per this extensive BBC reporting: Israel accused of possible war crime over killing of West Bank boy - with video analysis)
- Declassified UK: How Britain shields Israel from war crime charges -
Exclusive: The Conservatives have repeatedly protected Israeli politicians, spies and soldiers from being arrested for war crimes when they visit Britain, a new list reveals.
- (This is 2 weeks old) Hosted on Just Security (by Noura Erakat and Josh Paul): Report of the Independent Task Force on National Security Memorandum-20 Regarding Israel
The Task Force, which has worked on a voluntary basis, consists of experts on U.S. and international law, U.S. security assistance, and U.S. military best practices. For the past two months, we have combed through thousands of lines of data from credible nongovernmental organizations, ranging from human rights watchdogs to aid organizations working on the ground in Gaza.
The final report features sixteen clear, credible, and compelling incidents that should certainly be included in the administration’s upcoming reporting to Congress as well as an 18-page appendix of additional incidents worthy of examination. It also identifies multiple restrictions on humanitarian assistance, including strikes by the IDF, that trigger Section 620I of the Foreign Assistance Act (which bars military assistance to states impeding U.S. humanitarian aid) and should be reportable to Congress by the Departments of State and/or Defense under the terms of NSM-20.
Our findings were striking. Though Israel has attributed the 34,000 Palestinian casualties, 70 percent of whom are women and children, to alleged human shielding by Hamas, we found that in 11 out of the 16 incidents we analyzed, Israel did not even publicly identity a military target or attempt to justify the strike. Of the remaining five incidents, Israel publicly named targets with verification in two incidents, but no precautionary warning was given and we assess the anticipated civilian harm was known and excessive.
- (Seems interesting; on media ownership affecting bias) Prospect: Who really funds the Jewish Chronicle? Why it’s troubling that we don’t know…
- The Nation: Who Is Funding Canary Mission? Inside the Doxxing Operation Targeting Anti-Zionist Students and Professors
- Greens Australia (press release only): Australia exported $1.5 million worth of weapons to Israel in February 2024, fresh DFAT data shows
- (toastyk iirc shared this in previous thread, but might as well) Bellingcat: “We’ve Become Addicted to Explosions” The IDF Unit Responsible for Demolishing Homes Across Gaza (basically an OSINT multimedia report thanks to the warcrime scrapbooking habit of IDF soldiers)
---
Heh: (Haaretz) Israeli Justice Minister: Most of What I Know About the War Is From Al Jazeera -
According to Israel Hayom, right-wing judicial coup architect Yariv Levin told the hostages' families that he watches the Qatari station, which the government recently shuttered in Israel
This April 21 piece by Trita Parsi in NYT feels worth a revisit: Biden’s Small Win — and Bigger Failure — in the Middle East
posted by cendawanita at 6:24 PM on May 8 [14 favorites]
floating Piers already online as of yesterday's news seems weather is an impediment I found this interesting though talking about the theoretical.
"U.S. pier, a barge "testing" the delivery route, operated by Spanish charity Proactiva Open Arms and loaded with 200 tons of food from World Central Kitchen, left the port of Larnaca in Cyprus for Gaza.A jetty for unloading the barge was built at a location that was initially "not disclosed for security reasons".] but later discerned to be south of Gaza City (31.497°N 34.408°E) by journalists using commercial satellite imagery or talking to local construction workers.[52][53] The Cyprus foreign minister, Constantinos Kombos, said on March 13 that the US pier and the food route out of Larnaca would become a single operation.[54] The first barge arrived and began to be unloaded at the World Central Kitchen jetty on March 15.
posted by clavdivs at 6:26 PM on May 8
"U.S. pier, a barge "testing" the delivery route, operated by Spanish charity Proactiva Open Arms and loaded with 200 tons of food from World Central Kitchen, left the port of Larnaca in Cyprus for Gaza.A jetty for unloading the barge was built at a location that was initially "not disclosed for security reasons".] but later discerned to be south of Gaza City (31.497°N 34.408°E) by journalists using commercial satellite imagery or talking to local construction workers.[52][53] The Cyprus foreign minister, Constantinos Kombos, said on March 13 that the US pier and the food route out of Larnaca would become a single operation.[54] The first barge arrived and began to be unloaded at the World Central Kitchen jetty on March 15.
posted by clavdivs at 6:26 PM on May 8
Biden says he will stop sending bombs and artillery shells to Israel if they launch major invasion of Rafah
My tax dollars are being used to buy bombs to execute a genocide
I'm sorry what?
I didn't know that.
I didn't know you were the only person in the world -- especially the West -- made complicit in this hellfest on Earth.
Since I clearly lack the sheer privilege it takes to keep up in here, I guess I'd better walk my stupid brown *ss back to the 3rd World so that you can continue to feel comfortable in your privileged read of the situation -- after all, as you've said, you've clearly paid for the exclusive rights to it via your tax dollars and only your tax dollars. Sure.
posted by human ecologist at 6:29 PM on May 8 [1 favorite]
My tax dollars are being used to buy bombs to execute a genocide
I'm sorry what?
I didn't know that.
I didn't know you were the only person in the world -- especially the West -- made complicit in this hellfest on Earth.
Since I clearly lack the sheer privilege it takes to keep up in here, I guess I'd better walk my stupid brown *ss back to the 3rd World so that you can continue to feel comfortable in your privileged read of the situation -- after all, as you've said, you've clearly paid for the exclusive rights to it via your tax dollars and only your tax dollars. Sure.
posted by human ecologist at 6:29 PM on May 8 [1 favorite]
this is more for background podcast listening, but I've mentioned before about the these two regular guys, Elik and Alon, who started with one video post-Oct 7 in trying to live with themselves in Israel and now have a couple of podcasts, and they're still shaggy and amateurish but valuable local colour for me - and it's been touching to see them forming connections outside of Israel and feeling less alone (one of the things they mention every so often is the number of Palestinians they have started forming friendships with, including those still in Gaza - but I'm just noting, because of how Western mainstream opinion is still so Zionist, I'm only praying that their connections won't lead them astray, a prayer I have observing who in the West is willing to give them a time of day). Anyway, the latest video from them was just a chatty one: Elik and Alon Went to an Anti-G-cide Protest in the Center of Tel Aviv (and at this point Alon calls himself a Palestinian, heh).
They basically have two main podcasts, the One-State Solution of just them chatting and working out their feelings about Israel (I thought this episode was interesting: Shabbat Dinner In Occupied Palestine ), and Yalla, which is them having conversations with various people as they try to understand the situation outside what they're raised with (this one has a variety of people so far, but I thought I'll share this one they had with fellow Israelis, Ayelet & Dan - I suppose they are anti-zionists, I mean apparently their chat group's title is "it says Israel on our passport").
posted by cendawanita at 7:04 PM on May 8 [3 favorites]
They basically have two main podcasts, the One-State Solution of just them chatting and working out their feelings about Israel (I thought this episode was interesting: Shabbat Dinner In Occupied Palestine ), and Yalla, which is them having conversations with various people as they try to understand the situation outside what they're raised with (this one has a variety of people so far, but I thought I'll share this one they had with fellow Israelis, Ayelet & Dan - I suppose they are anti-zionists, I mean apparently their chat group's title is "it says Israel on our passport").
posted by cendawanita at 7:04 PM on May 8 [3 favorites]
human ecologist: it seems like you're feeling really piled-on, and i'm sorry for that. i've got some big disagreements with some of what you've said, in this thread and others—i, too, reacted badly to the idea that Gaza is a "distraction" for those of us in the metropole. it is definitely true that we have our own, extremely bad, child abuse/trauma/generational-violence/genocide problems, but i don't know that referring to a (different) active genocide as a "distraction" is a good way to convey that?
but i'd definitely like to understand you better, if you want to try to clarify?
honestly, the biggest thing i never really understood about genocides before the past seven months is how incredibly difficult it is not to become a worse and smaller person, just by being forced to bear witness. i've got so much compassion fatigue, and so much despair and hopelessness, and it's genuinely so fucking hard to reach past that to try for genuine human connection with anyone anymore. and i hate that, and i hate myself for it, and i don't know how to get out of that loop.
(and of course even saying this feels like centering myself, an objectively privileged person, when people are actually undergoing torture and misery and death! but i also feel like we have to figure this part out, because it is killing people and civilizations, even if not so directly as the bombs and guns?)
posted by adrienneleigh at 7:06 PM on May 8 [14 favorites]
but i'd definitely like to understand you better, if you want to try to clarify?
honestly, the biggest thing i never really understood about genocides before the past seven months is how incredibly difficult it is not to become a worse and smaller person, just by being forced to bear witness. i've got so much compassion fatigue, and so much despair and hopelessness, and it's genuinely so fucking hard to reach past that to try for genuine human connection with anyone anymore. and i hate that, and i hate myself for it, and i don't know how to get out of that loop.
(and of course even saying this feels like centering myself, an objectively privileged person, when people are actually undergoing torture and misery and death! but i also feel like we have to figure this part out, because it is killing people and civilizations, even if not so directly as the bombs and guns?)
posted by adrienneleigh at 7:06 PM on May 8 [14 favorites]
I didn't know you were the only person in the world -- especially the West -- made complicit in this hellfest on Earth.
I really don't understand where you're coming from here. A lot of us can be made complicit, saying that you feel personally complicit if you pay taxes doesn't mean you're the only one who does.
posted by corb at 7:10 PM on May 8 [10 favorites]
I really don't understand where you're coming from here. A lot of us can be made complicit, saying that you feel personally complicit if you pay taxes doesn't mean you're the only one who does.
posted by corb at 7:10 PM on May 8 [10 favorites]
honestly, the biggest thing i never really understood about genocides before the past seven months is how incredibly difficult it is not to become a worse and smaller person, just by being forced to bear witness.
The relevant term might be "moral injury." The link is to Wikipedia, but there are plenty of scholarly articles as well. Basically, it's the injury you suffer when you are forced to witness, or worse, participate in events that transgress your deeply-held moral values. The term is most properly used for people directly involved in terrible situations (like soldiers or health care workers) but we're all watching the same videos and it sure isn't great.
posted by Dip Flash at 7:30 PM on May 8 [8 favorites]
The relevant term might be "moral injury." The link is to Wikipedia, but there are plenty of scholarly articles as well. Basically, it's the injury you suffer when you are forced to witness, or worse, participate in events that transgress your deeply-held moral values. The term is most properly used for people directly involved in terrible situations (like soldiers or health care workers) but we're all watching the same videos and it sure isn't great.
posted by Dip Flash at 7:30 PM on May 8 [8 favorites]
you've clearly paid for the exclusive rights to it via your tax dollars and only your tax dollars.
I can’t believe I have to articulate this but ‘my tax dollars’==the money that I pay to the federal government. Not ‘my tax dollars’==I am the sole owner of the entire US federal budget.
If you’re in the US you are complicit in Israel’s genocide against the Palestinians, which it’s why it’s, say, more much appropriate and impactful for college students in the US to launch a massive anti war campaign against the war in Palestine than it is for them to protest Putin’s war in Ukraine.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 7:48 PM on May 8 [19 favorites]
I can’t believe I have to articulate this but ‘my tax dollars’==the money that I pay to the federal government. Not ‘my tax dollars’==I am the sole owner of the entire US federal budget.
If you’re in the US you are complicit in Israel’s genocide against the Palestinians, which it’s why it’s, say, more much appropriate and impactful for college students in the US to launch a massive anti war campaign against the war in Palestine than it is for them to protest Putin’s war in Ukraine.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 7:48 PM on May 8 [19 favorites]
we are all going down
we are all going down together
and i said uh oh
this is going to be some day
posted by flabdablet at 7:53 PM on May 8 [1 favorite]
we are all going down together
and i said uh oh
this is going to be some day
posted by flabdablet at 7:53 PM on May 8 [1 favorite]
Breakthrough News: Every Ceasefire Deal and Hostage Exchange Hamas Offered to Israel
If you don't want the analysis, here's the recap from the first half:
October - 4 offers
November - 1 offer
January - 3 offers
February - 1 offer
March - 1 offer
April - 1 offer
---
If the current violence in Rafah is considered "limited operations," then what the hell is a major one? It does underscore the extent of arms Israel has been provided if this pause (for bombs) can still yield this level of casualties and injuries as well as damage.
CNN: Israeli military operations in Rafah expand from airstrikes to ground operations, satellite images show
The images, which span from May 5 to 7, suggest some buildings have been bulldozed and show what appear to be mustering areas for IDF vehicles. Some of the IDF forces have penetrated more than a mile inside the Palestinian enclave from the Rafah crossing gate, the images also show.
The build-up comes despite intense international pressure on Israel not to move in on Rafah. On Wednesday, US President Joe Biden for the first time said he would halt some shipments of American weapons should Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu order a major invasion of the city.
These Israeli ground operations follow a series of airstrikes on Rafah that have completely destroyed several buildings in the past 24 hours, and killed at least four people, according to a local hospital. Satellite images suggest these strikes are continuing, with one picture showing smoke still rising from one location.
People could be seen running through the streets of Rafah in the aftermath of a strike on Wednesday in other footage obtained by CNN. Several carried children in their arms, some apparently bleeding and unconscious, towards Al Kuwaiti hospital.
CNN footage also showed panicked children arriving in ambulances without their parents and one barely responsive child with a heavily bandaged arm being carried on a stretcher. Two body bags were also visible outside the hospital.
Four people were killed and around two dozen injured by Israeli airstrikes in the Tal Al Sultan neighborhood in western Rafah on Wednesday, the hospital said.
MEE: 'Not possible': Palestinians too 'starved' to leave Rafah -
Orders to move out of the city are meaningless to people 'unable to walk' due to starvation, aid workers say
"There are children and elderly that are so starved that they can barely walk. These people cannot just relocate to another area, to so-called 'safe zones'. It is not possible," Alexandra Saieh, head of humanitarian policy from Save the Children, said.
Several aid workers have expressed that there is no "safe" area in the Gaza Strip for people to relocate to. "The concept of safe zones is a lie," Helena Marchal, from Medecins du Monde, said.
The Intercept: 600,000 Palestinian Kids in Rafah Can’t “Evacuate” Safely, UNICEF Official Says -
“The reality for kids living there is shocking, honestly,” said an official who recently returned from Gaza. “People are living in really squalid conditions.”
The United Nations Children’s Fund, or UNICEF, is pleading with the Israeli government and its backers to ceasefire and reverse course on plans for a full-scale Rafah invasion.
“There’s 600,000 children that are seeking shelter in Rafah and that many of them have been displaced multiple times already,” UNICEF’s Tess Ingram, who recently returned from Gaza, told The Intercept. “They’re exhausted, traumatized, sick, hungry, and their ability to safely evacuate is limited.”
“The area that they’re being directed to evacuate to is not safe. It’s not safe because there aren’t the services there to meet their basic needs, water, toilets, shelter,” she said in an interview. “But it’s also not safe because we know that that area has been subject to strikes despite being a so-called safe zone. So we’re really concerned about that impact of a ground offensive on one of the most densely populated areas in the world.”
“The reality for kids living there is shocking, honestly. People are living in really squalid conditions,” Ingram said. “It’s just incredibly crowded space. Everywhere you walk, you’re almost shoulder to shoulder with another person. Makeshift shelters expand from buildings across the sidewalk onto the road. People are living wherever they can find space in, you know, under bits of tarpaulin or blankets. And this expands as far as the eye can see.”
Ingram said UNICEF has been unable to get supplies or fuel into Gaza since Sunday.
“We are really scraping the bottom of the barrel now with the fuel that we have left in Gaza. We haven’t been able to get more in,” she said. “And that fuel is the lifeblood of the humanitarian aid operations in Gaza. And without it, important systems like [desalination] plants, hospitals, food delivery and trucks, they’ll all cease to exist.”
State Department spokesperson Matt Miller confirmed Ingram’s claim, saying at a press briefing Wednesday afternoon that no fuel had entered through either the Rafah crossing or Karem Shalom, despite U.S. urging. He added that the U.S. has told Israel that by taking control of the crossing, they now have the responsibility to open it swiftly. Even if aid trucks begin entering Gaza again, he added, aid can’t be distributed without fuel.
(...) While the U.S. symbolically delayed one weapons shipment, American officials made clear they intend to continue arming Israel. Israel downplayed the significance of the weapons delay and said the longtime allies are working out the issues behind closed doors.
Some of the behind-the-scenes tensions burst into public this week, as Likud official Tali Gottlieb, a member of the Knesset, lashed out at the U.S., threatening to ramp up war crimes in response to the weapons pause. “The US is threatening not to give us precise missiles. Oh yeah?” she said. “Well, I got news for the US. We have imprecise missiles. I’ll use it. I’ll just collapse ten buildings. Ten buildings. That’s what I’ll do.”
Asked by The Intercept about Gottlieb’s threat, the State Department spokesperson denounced it. “Those comments are absolutely deplorable and senior members of the Israeli government should refrain from making them,” Miller said.
Politico: Israel’s Rafah operation is fueling tensions with Washington. Here’s the reality on the ground. -
Aid groups say the situation in Rafah is unsustainable with fuel levels running dangerously low.
But the city of 1.4 million, filled with war refugees from northern Gaza, is already a slow-moving disaster, said Scott Anderson, the deputy director of UNRWA, the main U.N. agency in Gaza, and one of its few staffers still in Rafah.
Anderson told POLITICO that the incursion of Israeli troops into the southeastern part of the city is already causing chaos, and prevented aid from reaching people who desperately need it. UNRWA’s fuel stocks are depleted and its food rations will run out on Friday, he warned in a Zoom interview Monday.
The Biden administration has said a major invasion would be a red line — noting that it could result in more civilian deaths. But aid groups note that they’re already having difficulty distributing much needed aid to the more than 1.4 million people residing there. And the current fighting has killed dozens of people in the last 24 hours.
Anderson argues that however Israel has chosen to describe its current operation in Rafah as immaterial to the reality on the ground. His interview illuminates what’s at stake for Gazans in the coming days and weeks if Israel follows through with its promise to move forward with a large ground invasion of Rafah.
(...) Q: Are Israeli officials telling you of any plans to reopen the crossings?
We got a call from Israel last night, and they said they wanted to reopen the [Kerem Shalom] crossing. I said, “That’s great but we need to do an assessment first, taking unexploded ordnance experts and security and logistic people down and look at the state of things and whether or not it is conducive to us restarting the operation.” The transshipment area — it is all looted, destroyed. There’s basically nothing left. And on top of that there’s a battalion of tanks parked in that area right now. So we can make it work, but we would have to do coordination through, basically, an active operation.
At the Rafah crossing, there’s nobody there. The passenger terminal that exists there, and in the South seems to be in perfectly good shape, but there’s nobody there. Because it was all a de facto authority people that ran it, and they’ve all been displaced.
Q: How long do you think it will take to open up the Rafah border at this point?
Thirty-six hours.
Q: What about fighting on the ground in Rafah? Is it still going on?
Even an hour ago I could hear stuff. I haven’t for about an hour, but it was pretty active today. The other part of all this is anywhere there’s a concentration of IDF — it becomes a target. So every crossing today was hit by something. There is a more robust IDF presence now. There’s two brigades, one’s a specialist in tunnels and the other one were the perpetrators of the [World Central Kitchen] incident. Those are the two brigades operating now and in South Rafa.
Two dozen have been killed in the last 24 hours, including seven children.
Q: What’s the general mood in the city now where you are?
Despondent is the best word. They went from thinking there was a cease-fire to what could be the start of something Rafah. So people are scared, anxious, despondent, depressed. Pick your negative adjective.
posted by cendawanita at 8:18 AM on May 9 [10 favorites]
If you don't want the analysis, here's the recap from the first half:
October - 4 offers
November - 1 offer
January - 3 offers
February - 1 offer
March - 1 offer
April - 1 offer
---
If the current violence in Rafah is considered "limited operations," then what the hell is a major one? It does underscore the extent of arms Israel has been provided if this pause (for bombs) can still yield this level of casualties and injuries as well as damage.
CNN: Israeli military operations in Rafah expand from airstrikes to ground operations, satellite images show
The images, which span from May 5 to 7, suggest some buildings have been bulldozed and show what appear to be mustering areas for IDF vehicles. Some of the IDF forces have penetrated more than a mile inside the Palestinian enclave from the Rafah crossing gate, the images also show.
The build-up comes despite intense international pressure on Israel not to move in on Rafah. On Wednesday, US President Joe Biden for the first time said he would halt some shipments of American weapons should Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu order a major invasion of the city.
These Israeli ground operations follow a series of airstrikes on Rafah that have completely destroyed several buildings in the past 24 hours, and killed at least four people, according to a local hospital. Satellite images suggest these strikes are continuing, with one picture showing smoke still rising from one location.
People could be seen running through the streets of Rafah in the aftermath of a strike on Wednesday in other footage obtained by CNN. Several carried children in their arms, some apparently bleeding and unconscious, towards Al Kuwaiti hospital.
CNN footage also showed panicked children arriving in ambulances without their parents and one barely responsive child with a heavily bandaged arm being carried on a stretcher. Two body bags were also visible outside the hospital.
Four people were killed and around two dozen injured by Israeli airstrikes in the Tal Al Sultan neighborhood in western Rafah on Wednesday, the hospital said.
MEE: 'Not possible': Palestinians too 'starved' to leave Rafah -
Orders to move out of the city are meaningless to people 'unable to walk' due to starvation, aid workers say
"There are children and elderly that are so starved that they can barely walk. These people cannot just relocate to another area, to so-called 'safe zones'. It is not possible," Alexandra Saieh, head of humanitarian policy from Save the Children, said.
Several aid workers have expressed that there is no "safe" area in the Gaza Strip for people to relocate to. "The concept of safe zones is a lie," Helena Marchal, from Medecins du Monde, said.
The Intercept: 600,000 Palestinian Kids in Rafah Can’t “Evacuate” Safely, UNICEF Official Says -
“The reality for kids living there is shocking, honestly,” said an official who recently returned from Gaza. “People are living in really squalid conditions.”
The United Nations Children’s Fund, or UNICEF, is pleading with the Israeli government and its backers to ceasefire and reverse course on plans for a full-scale Rafah invasion.
“There’s 600,000 children that are seeking shelter in Rafah and that many of them have been displaced multiple times already,” UNICEF’s Tess Ingram, who recently returned from Gaza, told The Intercept. “They’re exhausted, traumatized, sick, hungry, and their ability to safely evacuate is limited.”
“The area that they’re being directed to evacuate to is not safe. It’s not safe because there aren’t the services there to meet their basic needs, water, toilets, shelter,” she said in an interview. “But it’s also not safe because we know that that area has been subject to strikes despite being a so-called safe zone. So we’re really concerned about that impact of a ground offensive on one of the most densely populated areas in the world.”
“The reality for kids living there is shocking, honestly. People are living in really squalid conditions,” Ingram said. “It’s just incredibly crowded space. Everywhere you walk, you’re almost shoulder to shoulder with another person. Makeshift shelters expand from buildings across the sidewalk onto the road. People are living wherever they can find space in, you know, under bits of tarpaulin or blankets. And this expands as far as the eye can see.”
Ingram said UNICEF has been unable to get supplies or fuel into Gaza since Sunday.
“We are really scraping the bottom of the barrel now with the fuel that we have left in Gaza. We haven’t been able to get more in,” she said. “And that fuel is the lifeblood of the humanitarian aid operations in Gaza. And without it, important systems like [desalination] plants, hospitals, food delivery and trucks, they’ll all cease to exist.”
State Department spokesperson Matt Miller confirmed Ingram’s claim, saying at a press briefing Wednesday afternoon that no fuel had entered through either the Rafah crossing or Karem Shalom, despite U.S. urging. He added that the U.S. has told Israel that by taking control of the crossing, they now have the responsibility to open it swiftly. Even if aid trucks begin entering Gaza again, he added, aid can’t be distributed without fuel.
(...) While the U.S. symbolically delayed one weapons shipment, American officials made clear they intend to continue arming Israel. Israel downplayed the significance of the weapons delay and said the longtime allies are working out the issues behind closed doors.
Some of the behind-the-scenes tensions burst into public this week, as Likud official Tali Gottlieb, a member of the Knesset, lashed out at the U.S., threatening to ramp up war crimes in response to the weapons pause. “The US is threatening not to give us precise missiles. Oh yeah?” she said. “Well, I got news for the US. We have imprecise missiles. I’ll use it. I’ll just collapse ten buildings. Ten buildings. That’s what I’ll do.”
Asked by The Intercept about Gottlieb’s threat, the State Department spokesperson denounced it. “Those comments are absolutely deplorable and senior members of the Israeli government should refrain from making them,” Miller said.
Politico: Israel’s Rafah operation is fueling tensions with Washington. Here’s the reality on the ground. -
Aid groups say the situation in Rafah is unsustainable with fuel levels running dangerously low.
But the city of 1.4 million, filled with war refugees from northern Gaza, is already a slow-moving disaster, said Scott Anderson, the deputy director of UNRWA, the main U.N. agency in Gaza, and one of its few staffers still in Rafah.
Anderson told POLITICO that the incursion of Israeli troops into the southeastern part of the city is already causing chaos, and prevented aid from reaching people who desperately need it. UNRWA’s fuel stocks are depleted and its food rations will run out on Friday, he warned in a Zoom interview Monday.
The Biden administration has said a major invasion would be a red line — noting that it could result in more civilian deaths. But aid groups note that they’re already having difficulty distributing much needed aid to the more than 1.4 million people residing there. And the current fighting has killed dozens of people in the last 24 hours.
Anderson argues that however Israel has chosen to describe its current operation in Rafah as immaterial to the reality on the ground. His interview illuminates what’s at stake for Gazans in the coming days and weeks if Israel follows through with its promise to move forward with a large ground invasion of Rafah.
(...) Q: Are Israeli officials telling you of any plans to reopen the crossings?
We got a call from Israel last night, and they said they wanted to reopen the [Kerem Shalom] crossing. I said, “That’s great but we need to do an assessment first, taking unexploded ordnance experts and security and logistic people down and look at the state of things and whether or not it is conducive to us restarting the operation.” The transshipment area — it is all looted, destroyed. There’s basically nothing left. And on top of that there’s a battalion of tanks parked in that area right now. So we can make it work, but we would have to do coordination through, basically, an active operation.
At the Rafah crossing, there’s nobody there. The passenger terminal that exists there, and in the South seems to be in perfectly good shape, but there’s nobody there. Because it was all a de facto authority people that ran it, and they’ve all been displaced.
Q: How long do you think it will take to open up the Rafah border at this point?
Thirty-six hours.
Q: What about fighting on the ground in Rafah? Is it still going on?
Even an hour ago I could hear stuff. I haven’t for about an hour, but it was pretty active today. The other part of all this is anywhere there’s a concentration of IDF — it becomes a target. So every crossing today was hit by something. There is a more robust IDF presence now. There’s two brigades, one’s a specialist in tunnels and the other one were the perpetrators of the [World Central Kitchen] incident. Those are the two brigades operating now and in South Rafa.
Two dozen have been killed in the last 24 hours, including seven children.
Q: What’s the general mood in the city now where you are?
Despondent is the best word. They went from thinking there was a cease-fire to what could be the start of something Rafah. So people are scared, anxious, despondent, depressed. Pick your negative adjective.
posted by cendawanita at 8:18 AM on May 9 [10 favorites]
Ah missed this one:-
+972: ‘The scenes of the Nakba are repeating’: Rafah in panic as Israeli invasion begins -
With Israeli forces entering Gaza’s southernmost city, Palestinians describe their hardships and fears in the Strip’s last vanishing refuge.
Residents of Rafah have long been in a state of panic in anticipation of this eventuality. That panic intensified Monday morning, when the Israeli army dropped leaflets from the sky ordering those living in Rafah’s eastern districts to immediately flee to the ill-equipped coastal area of Al-Mawasi.
Within hours, tens of thousands packed up what remains of their lives — many of them for the third, fourth, or fifth time since October — and headed northwest to what Israel is calling an “expanded safe zone.” But if Palestinians have learned anything from the past seven months, it is that nowhere in Gaza is ever safe from Israel’s onslaught.
(...) Al-Sufi and her family packed up their belongings and went to stay with relatives who own a cafe on the coast. “The street was crowded with cars and trucks transporting displaced people,” she recalled. “As we fled, we saw bombs falling in the eastern areas of the city.
“We are forced to cry,” she continued. “No one can protect us from the bombing. We used to say that Rafah is safe — we took in our friends and relatives [who fled from other parts of Gaza]. But the army attacked all areas and did not spare anyone.
“We are displaced out of fear for our children,” Al-Sufi added. “We saw what happened in Gaza City and Khan Younis. We hope that Rafah will not be destroyed and that we will not lose anyone.”
posted by cendawanita at 8:22 AM on May 9 [6 favorites]
+972: ‘The scenes of the Nakba are repeating’: Rafah in panic as Israeli invasion begins -
With Israeli forces entering Gaza’s southernmost city, Palestinians describe their hardships and fears in the Strip’s last vanishing refuge.
Residents of Rafah have long been in a state of panic in anticipation of this eventuality. That panic intensified Monday morning, when the Israeli army dropped leaflets from the sky ordering those living in Rafah’s eastern districts to immediately flee to the ill-equipped coastal area of Al-Mawasi.
Within hours, tens of thousands packed up what remains of their lives — many of them for the third, fourth, or fifth time since October — and headed northwest to what Israel is calling an “expanded safe zone.” But if Palestinians have learned anything from the past seven months, it is that nowhere in Gaza is ever safe from Israel’s onslaught.
(...) Al-Sufi and her family packed up their belongings and went to stay with relatives who own a cafe on the coast. “The street was crowded with cars and trucks transporting displaced people,” she recalled. “As we fled, we saw bombs falling in the eastern areas of the city.
“We are forced to cry,” she continued. “No one can protect us from the bombing. We used to say that Rafah is safe — we took in our friends and relatives [who fled from other parts of Gaza]. But the army attacked all areas and did not spare anyone.
“We are displaced out of fear for our children,” Al-Sufi added. “We saw what happened in Gaza City and Khan Younis. We hope that Rafah will not be destroyed and that we will not lose anyone.”
posted by cendawanita at 8:22 AM on May 9 [6 favorites]
Thick as mince though he may be, Piers Morgan has clearly had enough of Avi Hyman's horseshit (Piers Morgan Uncensored via Novara Media, YouTube/Piped/Invidious, 4m52s)
posted by flabdablet at 8:57 AM on May 9 [2 favorites]
posted by flabdablet at 8:57 AM on May 9 [2 favorites]
Thinking back to the repeated challenges to the question of whether this constitutes ethnic cleansing.. whether this is really genocide.. wherefore art thou, MeFite skeptics?
Dozens of academic scholars of genocide, many of them Israeli and/or Jewish, have been saying this for many months (May 7, 2024: Zeteo with Mehdi Hasan, guests: Israeli Holocaust scholar Raz Segal and Palestinian lawyer Diana Buttu, YouTube)
posted by elkevelvet at 9:09 AM on May 9 [6 favorites]
Dozens of academic scholars of genocide, many of them Israeli and/or Jewish, have been saying this for many months (May 7, 2024: Zeteo with Mehdi Hasan, guests: Israeli Holocaust scholar Raz Segal and Palestinian lawyer Diana Buttu, YouTube)
posted by elkevelvet at 9:09 AM on May 9 [6 favorites]
Pulitzer Winner Nathan Thrall on Israel's "System of Domination" and Biden Pausing Bomb Shipment (Democracy Now!, YouTube/Piped/Invidious, 20m48s)
posted by flabdablet at 10:15 AM on May 9 [3 favorites]
posted by flabdablet at 10:15 AM on May 9 [3 favorites]
We’ll find out the limits of America influence on Israel with Biden stopping weapons supplies and Netanyahu saying Israel can and will go it alone if necessary. I remember when George HW Bush halted aid to Israel because Shamir was busy settling newly arrived Soviet/Russian refugees in the occupied territories. It didn’t work. Hopefully there is enough of a division in the Israeli war cabinet over Netenyahu’s insistence to push ahead and Biden has built up enough goodwill to force some changes.
Meanwhile Trump is hammering Biden for halting arms shipments. RFK Jr has also been on the Netenyahu side. In an interview in March “Robert F. Kennedy Jr offered staunch support for Israel in a Reuters interview, calling it a "moral nation" that was justly responding to Hamas provocations with its attacks on Gaza and questioning the need for a six-week ceasefire backed by President Joe Biden.”
posted by interogative mood at 12:36 PM on May 9
Meanwhile Trump is hammering Biden for halting arms shipments. RFK Jr has also been on the Netenyahu side. In an interview in March “Robert F. Kennedy Jr offered staunch support for Israel in a Reuters interview, calling it a "moral nation" that was justly responding to Hamas provocations with its attacks on Gaza and questioning the need for a six-week ceasefire backed by President Joe Biden.”
posted by interogative mood at 12:36 PM on May 9
Biden would win this election tomorrow if he offered members of the Israeli government full amnesty. Give Netanyahu a teaching position at Penn today; there would be peace tomorrow.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 4:40 PM on May 9 [1 favorite]
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 4:40 PM on May 9 [1 favorite]
it's hard to point to anything Israel is doing that the US hasn't also done at some point within my short lifetime
Ethnic cleansing and genocide? The US hasn't done those on American soil within living memory.
In the 1970s, doctors in the United States sterilized an estimated 25 to 42 percent of Native American women of childbearing age, some as young as 15.
posted by CPAnarchist at 4:51 PM on May 9 [10 favorites]
Ethnic cleansing and genocide? The US hasn't done those on American soil within living memory.
In the 1970s, doctors in the United States sterilized an estimated 25 to 42 percent of Native American women of childbearing age, some as young as 15.
posted by CPAnarchist at 4:51 PM on May 9 [10 favorites]
Just... Generally speaking, it takes a lot of leg work to make a statement about the United States not being an absolute, geologically significant horror show. I recommend significant due diligence before saying anything that detracts from that fact.
posted by CPAnarchist at 4:52 PM on May 9 [7 favorites]
posted by CPAnarchist at 4:52 PM on May 9 [7 favorites]
Give Netanyahu a teaching position at Penn today; there would be peace tomorrow
This is how Kissenger was formed.
posted by clavdivs at 5:37 PM on May 9 [3 favorites]
This is how Kissenger was formed.
posted by clavdivs at 5:37 PM on May 9 [3 favorites]
The US isn’t significant it an outlier, the depressing thing is just how typical it has been.
posted by interogative mood at 5:44 PM on May 9
posted by interogative mood at 5:44 PM on May 9
This is how Kissenger was formed.
This might be the one way to remove a homicidal despot from control of a nuclear state.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 6:00 PM on May 9 [1 favorite]
This might be the one way to remove a homicidal despot from control of a nuclear state.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 6:00 PM on May 9 [1 favorite]
If only the problem is just one guy.... But idk, I'll take it at this point
posted by cendawanita at 7:27 PM on May 9 [2 favorites]
posted by cendawanita at 7:27 PM on May 9 [2 favorites]
If only the problem is just one guy....
To me, it's a situation where there are both a set of individual bad actors who should be sent to a place where they can't cause so much trouble (prison ideally, but I'll settle for visiting lecturer positions at second-tier schools), but also a broken system that is going to keep producing bad outcomes until or unless it gets fixed.
posted by Dip Flash at 8:26 PM on May 9 [1 favorite]
To me, it's a situation where there are both a set of individual bad actors who should be sent to a place where they can't cause so much trouble (prison ideally, but I'll settle for visiting lecturer positions at second-tier schools), but also a broken system that is going to keep producing bad outcomes until or unless it gets fixed.
posted by Dip Flash at 8:26 PM on May 9 [1 favorite]
A couple of big pieces out today:
CNN: Strapped down, blindfolded, held in diapers: Israeli whistleblowers detail abuse of Palestinians in shadowy detention center
Notable for not speaking to Palestinians directly but:
CNN spoke to three Israeli whistleblowers who worked at the Sde Teiman desert camp, which holds Palestinians detained during Israel’s invasion of Gaza. All spoke out at risk of legal repercussions and reprisals from groups supportive of Israel’s hardline policies in Gaza.
They paint a picture of a facility where doctors sometimes amputated prisoners’ limbs due to injuries sustained from constant handcuffing; of medical procedures sometimes performed by underqualified medics earning it a reputation for being “a paradise for interns”; and where the air is filled with the smell of neglected wounds left to rot.
According to the accounts, the facility some 18 miles from the Gaza frontier is split into two parts: enclosures where around 70 Palestinian detainees from Gaza are placed under extreme physical restraint, and a field hospital where wounded detainees are strapped to their beds, wearing diapers and fed through straws.
“They stripped them down of anything that resembles human beings,” said one whistleblower, who worked as a medic at the facility’s field hospital.
“(The beatings) were not done to gather intelligence. They were done out of revenge,” said another whistleblower. “It was punishment for what they (the Palestinians) did on October 7 and punishment for behavior in the camp.”
Haaretz: Haaretz Investigation | Disdain, Denial, Neglect: The Deep Roots of Israel's Devastating Intelligence Failure on Hamas and October 7
After the 2021 Gaza war, Israeli military intelligence made a series of fateful decisions about what constituted the real threat from Hamas in Gaza. From the silencing of divergent opinions to the culling of units, this is how a 'chain of failures' happened
The main findings presented here constitute, according to senior IDF sources, the core of the army's ongoing inquiry into the intelligence failure, which is still in its infancy. It encompasses failures across the entire security sector, both in the Shin Bet security service and the IDF, and was based on a sharp change of perception that there was no chance Hamas would be able to conduct a ground invasion into Israel, and that the terrorist group's main ability to conduct a campaign against Israel was firing long-range rockets.
It also touches upon the fact that according to several commanders, after the Gaza war in 2021, it was decided to cease gathering intelligence on Hamas' tactical array and the intermediate ranks of its military arm, and to focus on a few select individuals. As a result, intelligence collection resources were diverted to address the threat of rockets, and the magnifying glass was moved away from Hamas personnel.
"There was no sense of holy terror about the possibility of infiltration into [Israeli] communities or an invasion," says one source. "It was floating there among scenarios that no one really believed in or dealt with."
The investigation shows that this was a blind and absolute belief, and any opposing opinions – from Military Intelligence in the Southern Command and the Gaza Division to the General Staff forum – were silenced and not given a platform. The army also dried up and reduced the formations of sections and units, ultimately leaving only one unit with minimal resources and three officers to track a few senior members of Hamas' military ranks – and nothing more.
"There was a sense of disdain from the senior ranks in the military and political spheres," says an officer well-versed in the matter. "Disdain for an organization that we did not know at all."
Best candidates for "military aid". 👍
(Ok, I'll see you guys when I see you guys.)
posted by cendawanita at 7:21 AM on May 10 [6 favorites]
CNN: Strapped down, blindfolded, held in diapers: Israeli whistleblowers detail abuse of Palestinians in shadowy detention center
Notable for not speaking to Palestinians directly but:
CNN spoke to three Israeli whistleblowers who worked at the Sde Teiman desert camp, which holds Palestinians detained during Israel’s invasion of Gaza. All spoke out at risk of legal repercussions and reprisals from groups supportive of Israel’s hardline policies in Gaza.
They paint a picture of a facility where doctors sometimes amputated prisoners’ limbs due to injuries sustained from constant handcuffing; of medical procedures sometimes performed by underqualified medics earning it a reputation for being “a paradise for interns”; and where the air is filled with the smell of neglected wounds left to rot.
According to the accounts, the facility some 18 miles from the Gaza frontier is split into two parts: enclosures where around 70 Palestinian detainees from Gaza are placed under extreme physical restraint, and a field hospital where wounded detainees are strapped to their beds, wearing diapers and fed through straws.
“They stripped them down of anything that resembles human beings,” said one whistleblower, who worked as a medic at the facility’s field hospital.
“(The beatings) were not done to gather intelligence. They were done out of revenge,” said another whistleblower. “It was punishment for what they (the Palestinians) did on October 7 and punishment for behavior in the camp.”
Haaretz: Haaretz Investigation | Disdain, Denial, Neglect: The Deep Roots of Israel's Devastating Intelligence Failure on Hamas and October 7
After the 2021 Gaza war, Israeli military intelligence made a series of fateful decisions about what constituted the real threat from Hamas in Gaza. From the silencing of divergent opinions to the culling of units, this is how a 'chain of failures' happened
The main findings presented here constitute, according to senior IDF sources, the core of the army's ongoing inquiry into the intelligence failure, which is still in its infancy. It encompasses failures across the entire security sector, both in the Shin Bet security service and the IDF, and was based on a sharp change of perception that there was no chance Hamas would be able to conduct a ground invasion into Israel, and that the terrorist group's main ability to conduct a campaign against Israel was firing long-range rockets.
It also touches upon the fact that according to several commanders, after the Gaza war in 2021, it was decided to cease gathering intelligence on Hamas' tactical array and the intermediate ranks of its military arm, and to focus on a few select individuals. As a result, intelligence collection resources were diverted to address the threat of rockets, and the magnifying glass was moved away from Hamas personnel.
"There was no sense of holy terror about the possibility of infiltration into [Israeli] communities or an invasion," says one source. "It was floating there among scenarios that no one really believed in or dealt with."
The investigation shows that this was a blind and absolute belief, and any opposing opinions – from Military Intelligence in the Southern Command and the Gaza Division to the General Staff forum – were silenced and not given a platform. The army also dried up and reduced the formations of sections and units, ultimately leaving only one unit with minimal resources and three officers to track a few senior members of Hamas' military ranks – and nothing more.
"There was a sense of disdain from the senior ranks in the military and political spheres," says an officer well-versed in the matter. "Disdain for an organization that we did not know at all."
Best candidates for "military aid". 👍
(Ok, I'll see you guys when I see you guys.)
posted by cendawanita at 7:21 AM on May 10 [6 favorites]
A few more:
The Intercept: Israeli Military Refusers Appeal to Biden: “Stop Arming Israel’s War” -
Tal Mitnick and Sofia Orr, who are in prison for refusing to serve in Israel’s military, are pleading with Biden to help stop the war on Gaza.
“Your unconditional support for [Prime Minister Benjamin] Netanyahu’s policy of destruction, since the war began, has brought our society to the normalization of carnage and to the trivialization of human lives,” they wrote. “It is American diplomatic and material support that prolonged this war for so long. You are responsible for this, alongside our leaders. But while they’re interested in prolonging the war for political reasons, you have the power to make it stop.”
The teens wrote the letter before reporting to prison for their most recent sentences. They sent it to Biden on Thursday, a day after he confirmed in an interview for the first time that Israel has used U.S. bombs to kill civilians and said that he will not supply Israel with arms if it moves toward a major invasion of Rafah. Biden did not specify what he considers to be a major invasion; Israel already reportedly has troops on the ground in Rafah, which is considered the last refuge for displaced Palestinians in Gaza and which the Israeli military has long been bombing.
The White House’s National Security Council declined to comment.
Al-Jazeera : Bisan Owda and AJ+ win Peabody Award for Gaza war coverage -
Palestinian journalist dedicates award to protesters around the world who are supporting Gaza.
Owda dedicated the Peabody Award to university students and others who have been protesting in solidarity with Palestinians in Gaza.
“To all the people who took to the streets. To all the people at home who are participating in boycotts. To all the people worldwide, regardless of their religion, color, and ethnicity,” she said in a statement.
“Regardless of what makes them different, they’re united in one mission: in their demands for a free Palestine. You deserve this award. And so do we. And one day, this genocide will end. And Palestine will be free. And we will welcome you here. On Gazan soil. All of you.
“Thank you so much for this award and for always supporting us, standing by us, and for continuing to do so until we reach our demands: an end to the genocide, a ceasefire, and a free Palestine.”
MEE: UK Home Office revokes visa of Palestinian student after protest speech -
Dana Abuqamar, who lost 15 family members in Gaza, said the Home Office revoked her visa on ‘security grounds’
NOLA: Xavier University cancels UN ambassadors commencement speech after student outcry
Verret called the cancellation a "regrettable conclusion" and said the decision was made in partnership with the ambassador.
Thomas-Greenfield did not comment on the decision. She was also scheduled to deliver the commencement address at University of Vermont but that speech was also cancelled amid student protests last week.
Pro Publica : Blinken Says Israeli Units Accused of Serious Violations Have Done Enough to Avoid Sanctions. Experts and Insiders Disagree. -
The secretary of state told Congress that Israel had adequately punished a soldier who got community service for killing an unarmed Palestinian. Government officials call it a “mockery” and inconsistent with the law.
(For clavdivs honestly) BBC: Half of Gaza water sites damaged or destroyed, BBC satellite data reveals
The Intercept: As Biden Warns Against Rafah Invasion, AIPAC Pushes Congress to Support Israel’s Operation -
In talking points reviewed by The Intercept, the pro-Israel lobby argues that Israel has “no other option” but to invade Rafah.
The Maple: CIJA Contravened A Lobbying Requirement With No Repercussions
The pro-Israel group was barred from lobbying an MP for two years after taking him on an Israel trip, but did so just six months later.
The Nation: It’s Clearer Than Ever: Israel’s War Has Failed Catastrophically -
The invasion of Rafah is not a sign of strength. It’s a sign of desperation from a flailing government.
Euro-Med Monitor: With Gaza's only lifeline cut off, humanitarian catastrophe looms in Rafah
posted by cendawanita at 7:58 AM on May 10 [5 favorites]
The Intercept: Israeli Military Refusers Appeal to Biden: “Stop Arming Israel’s War” -
Tal Mitnick and Sofia Orr, who are in prison for refusing to serve in Israel’s military, are pleading with Biden to help stop the war on Gaza.
“Your unconditional support for [Prime Minister Benjamin] Netanyahu’s policy of destruction, since the war began, has brought our society to the normalization of carnage and to the trivialization of human lives,” they wrote. “It is American diplomatic and material support that prolonged this war for so long. You are responsible for this, alongside our leaders. But while they’re interested in prolonging the war for political reasons, you have the power to make it stop.”
The teens wrote the letter before reporting to prison for their most recent sentences. They sent it to Biden on Thursday, a day after he confirmed in an interview for the first time that Israel has used U.S. bombs to kill civilians and said that he will not supply Israel with arms if it moves toward a major invasion of Rafah. Biden did not specify what he considers to be a major invasion; Israel already reportedly has troops on the ground in Rafah, which is considered the last refuge for displaced Palestinians in Gaza and which the Israeli military has long been bombing.
The White House’s National Security Council declined to comment.
Al-Jazeera : Bisan Owda and AJ+ win Peabody Award for Gaza war coverage -
Palestinian journalist dedicates award to protesters around the world who are supporting Gaza.
Owda dedicated the Peabody Award to university students and others who have been protesting in solidarity with Palestinians in Gaza.
“To all the people who took to the streets. To all the people at home who are participating in boycotts. To all the people worldwide, regardless of their religion, color, and ethnicity,” she said in a statement.
“Regardless of what makes them different, they’re united in one mission: in their demands for a free Palestine. You deserve this award. And so do we. And one day, this genocide will end. And Palestine will be free. And we will welcome you here. On Gazan soil. All of you.
“Thank you so much for this award and for always supporting us, standing by us, and for continuing to do so until we reach our demands: an end to the genocide, a ceasefire, and a free Palestine.”
MEE: UK Home Office revokes visa of Palestinian student after protest speech -
Dana Abuqamar, who lost 15 family members in Gaza, said the Home Office revoked her visa on ‘security grounds’
NOLA: Xavier University cancels UN ambassadors commencement speech after student outcry
Verret called the cancellation a "regrettable conclusion" and said the decision was made in partnership with the ambassador.
Thomas-Greenfield did not comment on the decision. She was also scheduled to deliver the commencement address at University of Vermont but that speech was also cancelled amid student protests last week.
Pro Publica : Blinken Says Israeli Units Accused of Serious Violations Have Done Enough to Avoid Sanctions. Experts and Insiders Disagree. -
The secretary of state told Congress that Israel had adequately punished a soldier who got community service for killing an unarmed Palestinian. Government officials call it a “mockery” and inconsistent with the law.
(For clavdivs honestly) BBC: Half of Gaza water sites damaged or destroyed, BBC satellite data reveals
The Intercept: As Biden Warns Against Rafah Invasion, AIPAC Pushes Congress to Support Israel’s Operation -
In talking points reviewed by The Intercept, the pro-Israel lobby argues that Israel has “no other option” but to invade Rafah.
The Maple: CIJA Contravened A Lobbying Requirement With No Repercussions
The pro-Israel group was barred from lobbying an MP for two years after taking him on an Israel trip, but did so just six months later.
The Nation: It’s Clearer Than Ever: Israel’s War Has Failed Catastrophically -
The invasion of Rafah is not a sign of strength. It’s a sign of desperation from a flailing government.
Euro-Med Monitor: With Gaza's only lifeline cut off, humanitarian catastrophe looms in Rafah
posted by cendawanita at 7:58 AM on May 10 [5 favorites]
Happening right now...apparently Israel's ambassador to the UN brought a mini-shredder and shredded the UN charter as there's a UN General Assembly vote today on Palestinian statehood. The livestream is here if you want to watch. I don't know the full implications of this vote, but as I understand it, this would give the Palestinians more rights and privileges but stop short of making them a full member of the UN.
Data for Progress poll shows that support for a permanent ceasefire in Gaza increased across party lines.
A pro-Israel PAC is pouring millions into a surprise candidate in Maryland's Democratic primary:
According to documents filed with the Federal Election Commission, UDP has spent over $4.2m supporting state senator Sarah Elfreth.
UDP’s investment comes after the group spent $4.6m on its failed effort to block the Democratic congressional candidate Dave Min from advancing to the general election in California’s 47th district. But the group notched one of its biggest wins of the election cycle so far on Tuesday, when the former Republican representative John Hostettler lost his primary race in Indiana’s eighth district. UDP had devoted $1.6m to defeating Hostettler because of his voting record on Israel and some of his past comments that were criticized as antisemitic.
posted by toastyk at 8:24 AM on May 10 [3 favorites]
Data for Progress poll shows that support for a permanent ceasefire in Gaza increased across party lines.
A pro-Israel PAC is pouring millions into a surprise candidate in Maryland's Democratic primary:
According to documents filed with the Federal Election Commission, UDP has spent over $4.2m supporting state senator Sarah Elfreth.
UDP’s investment comes after the group spent $4.6m on its failed effort to block the Democratic congressional candidate Dave Min from advancing to the general election in California’s 47th district. But the group notched one of its biggest wins of the election cycle so far on Tuesday, when the former Republican representative John Hostettler lost his primary race in Indiana’s eighth district. UDP had devoted $1.6m to defeating Hostettler because of his voting record on Israel and some of his past comments that were criticized as antisemitic.
posted by toastyk at 8:24 AM on May 10 [3 favorites]
Singapore's speech is quite good.
posted by toastyk at 8:32 AM on May 10 [1 favorite]
posted by toastyk at 8:32 AM on May 10 [1 favorite]
The war cabinet in Israel voted to expand the Rafah operation (link to Barak Ravid a reporter on twitter/x). It seems like they are testing Biden's resolve by attempting to walk up to the red line he has set without actually stepping so far over it that they can't walk it back. Itamar Ben Gvir and Bezalel Smotrich voted against a separate resolution to continue hostage negotiations. Ben Gvir and Smotrich are ultranationalists whose parties combined hold about 13 seats in the Knesset. US Senator Tom Cotton has asked for impeachment hearings on Biden's refusal to supply more weapons to Israel for the Rafah operation.
One of Hamas' rockets hit a playground in Beersheba a 37 year old woman was injured. Rockets fired from Lebanon also hit a house in Northern Israel. Israel responded by blowing up some buildings in Lebanon.
Kerem Shalom crossing has reopened according to the IDF. They claimed dozens of trucks crossed yesterday. I assume this means just over 24 trucks -- the smallest number that could be considered "dozens". I don't think it is nearly enough.
posted by interogative mood at 10:30 AM on May 10 [2 favorites]
One of Hamas' rockets hit a playground in Beersheba a 37 year old woman was injured. Rockets fired from Lebanon also hit a house in Northern Israel. Israel responded by blowing up some buildings in Lebanon.
Kerem Shalom crossing has reopened according to the IDF. They claimed dozens of trucks crossed yesterday. I assume this means just over 24 trucks -- the smallest number that could be considered "dozens". I don't think it is nearly enough.
posted by interogative mood at 10:30 AM on May 10 [2 favorites]
Maritime YouTube channel “What’s GoIng On With Shipping” has an update on US operation to setup a temporary pier and deliver supplies into to Gaza.
posted by interogative mood at 2:00 PM on May 10
posted by interogative mood at 2:00 PM on May 10
It sounds like the report from State was presented to Congress? The reporting reads like it walked right up to the line of what would legally require aid to stop without quite crossing over, with the door being left open to making that final step. I assume it's another lever being used to try to stop Israel from expanding its Rafah operation.
posted by Justinian at 3:08 PM on May 10
posted by Justinian at 3:08 PM on May 10
Why Does the NYT Keep Lying About Biden “Trying to End the War”? (Adam Johnson at The Column)
This copy isn’t just implying, it’s explicitly telling the reader the White House’s policy is to “end the war” and that this aim is simply being stopped by some mysterious ceasefire negotiations or Israel’s stubbornness.posted by adrienneleigh at 3:16 PM on May 10 [6 favorites]
But here’s the thing: this isn’t true. And if it is true, it’s major news the Times should be reporting out and explaining, not just throwing around like a given.
The White House has repeatedly made clear that its goal is that of the Israeli government’s: to “eliminate” or “defeat” Hamas. The White House, at no point, has publicly said it is willing to accept a post-War Gaza with Hamas still in power, which is what “ending the war” today would entail—by definition.
ubi solitudinem faciunt pacem appellant is pretty traditional, sadly.
posted by Justinian at 3:19 PM on May 10 [3 favorites]
posted by Justinian at 3:19 PM on May 10 [3 favorites]
The UNGA vote in support of Palestinian membership passed overwhelmingly, with 143 nations voting in favor. Twenty-five countries abstained (including Canada and Ukraine), and nine voted against: Czechia, Hungary, Argentina, Micronesia, Nauru, Palau, Papua New Guinea, Israel and the United States.
Unfortunately the UNSC is still the gatekeeper for full membership, and the US is guaranteed to veto Palestine's application, but this does expand Palestine's procedural access to the General Assembly (although it will still not have a vote).
Israel's ambassador to the UN, in a shining example of comity and decorum, snuck in a tiny shredder and shredded the UN charter on the floor during debate.
The US delegation to the UN, obviously somewhat unclear on the meanings of words, issued a post-meeting statement decrying 143 countries for acting "unilaterally".
posted by adrienneleigh at 3:27 PM on May 10 [13 favorites]
Unfortunately the UNSC is still the gatekeeper for full membership, and the US is guaranteed to veto Palestine's application, but this does expand Palestine's procedural access to the General Assembly (although it will still not have a vote).
Israel's ambassador to the UN, in a shining example of comity and decorum, snuck in a tiny shredder and shredded the UN charter on the floor during debate.
The US delegation to the UN, obviously somewhat unclear on the meanings of words, issued a post-meeting statement decrying 143 countries for acting "unilaterally".
posted by adrienneleigh at 3:27 PM on May 10 [13 favorites]
Adam Johnson seems to be unaware of Biden’s numerous statements calling for a ceasefire, release of hostages and followed by negotiation towards a comprehensive peace agreement. Biden also has stated that he thinks the agreement would result in a two state solution. Practically for peace negotiations to start Israel and Hamas will need to show a willingness to engage in those negotiations. That goes beyond the ceasefire with other pre-conditions. For Israel that would be to stop settlement expansion, stop settler violence against Palestinians lift the blockade of Gaza, release a bunch of Palestinians who were arbitrarily detained, and stop a bunch of other similar activities that harass the Palestinians. For Hamas the big ones are renouncing terrorism, getting rid of rockets and rocket factories, and recognizing Israel has a right to exist. The biggest change there is moving away from their previous statements about just a “long term truce with the Zionist entity”; but holding on to their vision of eliminating Israel eventually.
posted by interogative mood at 3:49 PM on May 10 [3 favorites]
posted by interogative mood at 3:49 PM on May 10 [3 favorites]
Lol, Adam Johnson is entirely aware of Joe Biden's many "statements". He just knows that they're bullshit, as do most of the rest of us who are paying attention.
posted by adrienneleigh at 3:52 PM on May 10 [11 favorites]
posted by adrienneleigh at 3:52 PM on May 10 [11 favorites]
The US delegation to the UN, obviously somewhat unclear on the meanings of words, issued a post-meeting statement decrying 143 countries for acting "unilaterally".
Translation: "We're the US, we're obviously the most imporant ones here, how dare you do anything without us."
posted by corb at 4:08 PM on May 10 [9 favorites]
Translation: "We're the US, we're obviously the most imporant ones here, how dare you do anything without us."
posted by corb at 4:08 PM on May 10 [9 favorites]
Publicly expecting anyone to take Joseph Biden at his word in 2024 is an immoral act.
posted by CPAnarchist at 5:06 PM on May 10 [6 favorites]
posted by CPAnarchist at 5:06 PM on May 10 [6 favorites]
interogative mood: as usual, i find your language so revelatory about what you expect from the parties to the conflict. Your statement that Israel should offer to "stop settlement expansion", for instance. Not "give back the land they already stole", not even "pay reparations", just "stop stealing more land". Also blah blah, release "arbitrarily detained" Palestinians (who gets to decide which detentions were arbitrary? Israel?)
In return for which, Palestinians are supposed to "renounc[e] terrorism, getting rid of rockets and rocket factories". So: renounce their right of resistance to occupation (i'm pretty sure they'd already assert that they're not doing "terrorism"), and their only feasible mid-range weaponry, for hollow guarantees that maybe Israel won't steal yet more of their shit? What happens when Israel inevitably breaks their promise?
What are you asking Israel to actually give up, here, other than shit that they have no rights to in the first place?
Have you ever even said the words "Palestinian right of return"?
posted by adrienneleigh at 6:01 PM on May 10 [11 favorites]
In return for which, Palestinians are supposed to "renounc[e] terrorism, getting rid of rockets and rocket factories". So: renounce their right of resistance to occupation (i'm pretty sure they'd already assert that they're not doing "terrorism"), and their only feasible mid-range weaponry, for hollow guarantees that maybe Israel won't steal yet more of their shit? What happens when Israel inevitably breaks their promise?
What are you asking Israel to actually give up, here, other than shit that they have no rights to in the first place?
Have you ever even said the words "Palestinian right of return"?
posted by adrienneleigh at 6:01 PM on May 10 [11 favorites]
The right of return, among many other important questions, is not going to be fixed next week. What could, potentially, be fixed is a ceasefire. Do that, and maybe in the next couple months a bit more trust could be built that would enable a more lasting provisional agreement, and then, and then.
People are out here talking like a conflict that's lasted for a hundred years is going to be resolved if Biden would simply put on his big boy pants and wave his magic American wand. That's not how this works, and if you think so then you're sadly naive.
I do think he can do more. I hope he's doing more behind the scenes, but I also recognize that this administration has been more savvy about this than any other American government in my lifetime. Biden's strength is that he can be with people in their pain and anxiety, and that's something that is less flashy but more durable than we want. This is the world we live in. We have to take it as we is, and do what we can to open up space for peace.
posted by tivalasvegas at 7:47 PM on May 10 [4 favorites]
People are out here talking like a conflict that's lasted for a hundred years is going to be resolved if Biden would simply put on his big boy pants and wave his magic American wand. That's not how this works, and if you think so then you're sadly naive.
I do think he can do more. I hope he's doing more behind the scenes, but I also recognize that this administration has been more savvy about this than any other American government in my lifetime. Biden's strength is that he can be with people in their pain and anxiety, and that's something that is less flashy but more durable than we want. This is the world we live in. We have to take it as we is, and do what we can to open up space for peace.
posted by tivalasvegas at 7:47 PM on May 10 [4 favorites]
Biden has zero empathy for Palestinians. Including Palestinian-Americans, who are, you know, in theory people he's responsible for, as the president of the United States of America. He's not with them in their pain and anxiety, he's actively making it worse. Because he is a committed Zionist and he is 100% on board with Israel ethnically cleansing Palestine.
(Speaking as a queer person, the same is largely true of his feelings about queer people, frankly. He doesn't actively want us gone but he's happy to throw us under the bus for any and every other priority, while claiming to "feel our pain" and "have our backs". His much-vaunted compassion and empathy are, in practice, very limited.)
posted by adrienneleigh at 8:53 PM on May 10 [14 favorites]
(Speaking as a queer person, the same is largely true of his feelings about queer people, frankly. He doesn't actively want us gone but he's happy to throw us under the bus for any and every other priority, while claiming to "feel our pain" and "have our backs". His much-vaunted compassion and empathy are, in practice, very limited.)
posted by adrienneleigh at 8:53 PM on May 10 [14 favorites]
an extremely pointed tweet from @griffonatrix
The most significant difference between what Israel is doing to Palestinians today and what the United States did to Native Americans through the 18th and 19th century is that there's still time to stop one of them.posted by adrienneleigh at 8:54 PM on May 10 [9 favorites]
You don’t seem to understand minimal preconditions and baseline concessions needed to get parties to a negotiating table vs initial demands vs what might constitute the negotiated final agreement. Perhaps instead of trying to attack me you would care to discuss what preconditions you think Hamas and Israel would need to meet to show they are serious about negotiating a peace treaty and finally resolving this conflict.
posted by interogative mood at 9:24 PM on May 10
posted by interogative mood at 9:24 PM on May 10
minimal preconditions and baseline concessions needed to get parties to a negotiating table vs initial demands vs what might constitute the negotiated final agreement
That just seems like an excuse for you to offer nothing with vague can-kicking promises, that Israel will immediately back out of and go right back to October 6 status quo.
Do remember, this isn't the BBC, we're not politicians, we're not on the negotiating teams. You can say what you actually want, not just "i think as a temporary negotiating step this is reasonable start for Israel to offer, considering realpolitik".
I think it would be enlightening to find out what you, as the allegedly more informed, rational, realpolitik person in this conversation, think would be morally appropriate for Hamas and Israel to put on the table.
posted by Audreynachrome at 9:35 PM on May 10 [5 favorites]
That just seems like an excuse for you to offer nothing with vague can-kicking promises, that Israel will immediately back out of and go right back to October 6 status quo.
Do remember, this isn't the BBC, we're not politicians, we're not on the negotiating teams. You can say what you actually want, not just "i think as a temporary negotiating step this is reasonable start for Israel to offer, considering realpolitik".
I think it would be enlightening to find out what you, as the allegedly more informed, rational, realpolitik person in this conversation, think would be morally appropriate for Hamas and Israel to put on the table.
posted by Audreynachrome at 9:35 PM on May 10 [5 favorites]
The US delegation to the UN, obviously somewhat unclear on the meanings of words, issued a post-meeting statement decrying 143 countries for acting "unilaterally".
That's it, isn't it. That's the whole thing, right there. The people the world has empowered to deal with this shit on our behalf have now told so many lies that their minds no longer have room to contain anything else, which leaves them operating in a permanent nightmare fog where nothing means anything and they genuinely can't understand why the only people who appear to believe anything they say are the shrinking number still willing to maintain the gentleman's agreement that any of the lies are still even plausible. They rebranded kayfabe as realpolitik and forgot that kayfabe is for fun.
discuss what preconditions you think Hamas and Israel would need to meet to show they are serious about negotiating a peace treaty and finally resolving this conflict
Hamas has repeatedly put opening negotiating positions demonstrating exactly that seriousness to the world outside the Zionist bubble, even as Israel continues to show by its every action that it has no intention whatsoever of working toward any treaty that might result in a viable Palestinian state, much less a functioning single-state democracy across all the territory it currently controls.
Israel's right to defend itself would need exercising much less intensely and much less often if only it could be persuaded to stop punching itself in the face. The single biggest impediment to that persuasion is the US's consistently applied policy of shielding Israel from the consequences of its multiple, longstanding, egregious, horrific, enormous, obvious violations of international humanitarian law.
Unless and until that happens, I expect to see Israel continuing to deploy as many snipers, bulldozers and two thousand pound bombs as are needed to show exactly how fundamentally unserious both it and the US are about achieving a just peace in the Middle East.
posted by flabdablet at 10:01 PM on May 10 [9 favorites]
That's it, isn't it. That's the whole thing, right there. The people the world has empowered to deal with this shit on our behalf have now told so many lies that their minds no longer have room to contain anything else, which leaves them operating in a permanent nightmare fog where nothing means anything and they genuinely can't understand why the only people who appear to believe anything they say are the shrinking number still willing to maintain the gentleman's agreement that any of the lies are still even plausible. They rebranded kayfabe as realpolitik and forgot that kayfabe is for fun.
discuss what preconditions you think Hamas and Israel would need to meet to show they are serious about negotiating a peace treaty and finally resolving this conflict
Hamas has repeatedly put opening negotiating positions demonstrating exactly that seriousness to the world outside the Zionist bubble, even as Israel continues to show by its every action that it has no intention whatsoever of working toward any treaty that might result in a viable Palestinian state, much less a functioning single-state democracy across all the territory it currently controls.
Israel's right to defend itself would need exercising much less intensely and much less often if only it could be persuaded to stop punching itself in the face. The single biggest impediment to that persuasion is the US's consistently applied policy of shielding Israel from the consequences of its multiple, longstanding, egregious, horrific, enormous, obvious violations of international humanitarian law.
Unless and until that happens, I expect to see Israel continuing to deploy as many snipers, bulldozers and two thousand pound bombs as are needed to show exactly how fundamentally unserious both it and the US are about achieving a just peace in the Middle East.
posted by flabdablet at 10:01 PM on May 10 [9 favorites]
Literally shredding the UN charter in order to make some petulant bullshit point about the GA figuratively shredding it is peak Lunatic State. That's a Marjorie Taylor Greene move right there. Serious, my arse.
posted by flabdablet at 10:07 PM on May 10 [9 favorites]
posted by flabdablet at 10:07 PM on May 10 [9 favorites]
Hamas has repeatedly put opening negotiating positions demonstrating exactly that seriousness to the world outside the Zionist bubble, even as Israel continues to show by its every action that it has no intention whatsoever of working toward any treaty that might result in a viable Palestinian state, much less a functioning single-state democracy across all the territory it currently controls.
flabdablet, thank you for saying exactly what i would've said if i weren't too disgusted (and full of cold medicine, tbf) to make words anymore tonight
posted by adrienneleigh at 10:28 PM on May 10 [1 favorite]
flabdablet, thank you for saying exactly what i would've said if i weren't too disgusted (and full of cold medicine, tbf) to make words anymore tonight
posted by adrienneleigh at 10:28 PM on May 10 [1 favorite]
I think Biden has the mindset of a Silent Generation American toward Israel, which is that his formative years came in the aftermath of the Holocaust and he takes the Never Again pledge, as it applies to Israel, very seriously. I read somewhere recently, and quite possibly linked from the Blue or even from this thread, a discussion on some Twitter-like social media site about how people mistake episodes of genocide (like the Holocaust) and the process of genocide for each other. So Biden (and in this he is like many Americans and many people all over the world) seems to feel that by supporting Israel in what (the government of) Israel feels is an existential threat, he's honoring that pledge of Never Again by keeping a repeat of the episode of the Holocaust.
Other people feel like the Never Again pledge should apply to the process of genocide and are more concerned about preventing that process from playing out against any group. And like the generation of Democrats who no longer remember Republicans collectively as anything but mustache-twirling villains, tools of billionaires, and reactionary evangelical haters, there are multiple generations of Americans who have watched Israel engage in what they see (not arguing the correctness here) as a process of genocide toward Palestinians/Arabs/Muslims who have claims to the territory that makes up Israel.
Obviously those interpretations of Never Again are in conflict here. I don't think I'm saying anything we don't all know; I'm just trying to articulate as well as I can how a bunch of people proceeding from the starting place of that same Never Again moral principle end up with very different political priorities that folks who disagree with them find morally abhorrent.
posted by gentlyepigrams at 11:13 PM on May 10 [4 favorites]
Other people feel like the Never Again pledge should apply to the process of genocide and are more concerned about preventing that process from playing out against any group. And like the generation of Democrats who no longer remember Republicans collectively as anything but mustache-twirling villains, tools of billionaires, and reactionary evangelical haters, there are multiple generations of Americans who have watched Israel engage in what they see (not arguing the correctness here) as a process of genocide toward Palestinians/Arabs/Muslims who have claims to the territory that makes up Israel.
Obviously those interpretations of Never Again are in conflict here. I don't think I'm saying anything we don't all know; I'm just trying to articulate as well as I can how a bunch of people proceeding from the starting place of that same Never Again moral principle end up with very different political priorities that folks who disagree with them find morally abhorrent.
posted by gentlyepigrams at 11:13 PM on May 10 [4 favorites]
To think of the Holocaust as having been perpetrated because its victims were Jewish is to accept the perpetrator's framing.
Now Look What You Made Me Do is the domestic abuser's ethos and Hitler's Nazis, like every fascist movement, were abusers writ large.
Being Jewish made a particular group of people identifiable as a group. The Holocaust was perpetrated because its perpetrators chose to treat that group, along with several other, smaller groups, as subhuman.
It was never about what the victims were. It was about what they were not. They were not Me. They were not Us.
Never again.
posted by flabdablet at 12:00 AM on May 11 [6 favorites]
Now Look What You Made Me Do is the domestic abuser's ethos and Hitler's Nazis, like every fascist movement, were abusers writ large.
Being Jewish made a particular group of people identifiable as a group. The Holocaust was perpetrated because its perpetrators chose to treat that group, along with several other, smaller groups, as subhuman.
It was never about what the victims were. It was about what they were not. They were not Me. They were not Us.
Never again.
posted by flabdablet at 12:00 AM on May 11 [6 favorites]
Ehhhh. I can't agree with that. They were targeted because they were Jewish. (As were Romani, disabled, trans people, targeted because of who they were). Which was the culmination of many, many centuries of widespread antisemitism and pogroms across Europe.
Trying to downplay the identity of victims of atrocities to make a broader point about abusers erases a very real and important aspect of those atrocities. It'd be like trying to argue that the enslavement of Black people in the antebellum South didn't actually enslave them because they were Black. Or that Manifest Destiny didn't target Native Americans because they were Native Americans. I think affected people would react to that argument angrily and I think they'd be right to react that way.
I get that you're trying to make a point about blaming the perpetrators regardless of the identity of their victims but we should make that point without trying to whitewash things.
posted by Justinian at 12:14 AM on May 11 [7 favorites]
Trying to downplay the identity of victims of atrocities to make a broader point about abusers erases a very real and important aspect of those atrocities. It'd be like trying to argue that the enslavement of Black people in the antebellum South didn't actually enslave them because they were Black. Or that Manifest Destiny didn't target Native Americans because they were Native Americans. I think affected people would react to that argument angrily and I think they'd be right to react that way.
I get that you're trying to make a point about blaming the perpetrators regardless of the identity of their victims but we should make that point without trying to whitewash things.
posted by Justinian at 12:14 AM on May 11 [7 favorites]
A clear refusal to indulge in victim-blaming does not amount to whitewashing.
posted by flabdablet at 12:39 AM on May 11 [1 favorite]
posted by flabdablet at 12:39 AM on May 11 [1 favorite]
They were murdered because they were Jewish.
They were enslaved because they were Black.
They were massacred because they were Native Americans.
They were raped because they were women.
They were beaten because they were children.
Perpetrator's framing.
posted by flabdablet at 12:45 AM on May 11 [2 favorites]
They were enslaved because they were Black.
They were massacred because they were Native Americans.
They were raped because they were women.
They were beaten because they were children.
Perpetrator's framing.
posted by flabdablet at 12:45 AM on May 11 [2 favorites]
They were murdered because murderers chose to murder them.
They were enslaved because slavers chose to enslave them.
They were massacred because settlers chose to massacre them.
They were raped because rapists chose to rape them.
They were beaten because their "carers" chose abuse instead of care.
Never again.
posted by flabdablet at 12:50 AM on May 11 [3 favorites]
They were enslaved because slavers chose to enslave them.
They were massacred because settlers chose to massacre them.
They were raped because rapists chose to rape them.
They were beaten because their "carers" chose abuse instead of care.
Never again.
posted by flabdablet at 12:50 AM on May 11 [3 favorites]
The idea that refusing to erase the identity of victims is some sort of nod to the perpetrator's framing of crimes is so absurd I don't know where to begin. You're co-opting the language of justice in order to further perpetrate injustice.
I wonder if the Armenians would appreciate the refusal to recognize them as Armenians.
posted by Justinian at 12:53 AM on May 11 [5 favorites]
I wonder if the Armenians would appreciate the refusal to recognize them as Armenians.
posted by Justinian at 12:53 AM on May 11 [5 favorites]
Tareq Baconi on negotiating with Hamas, from his Ezra Klein interview:
Ezra Klein: So one view that Israelis have of Hamas is that what it wants, the only thing that it will accept is the end of the state of Israel, the end of the state of Israel as any kind of Jewish state, the end of the state of Israel on that land. And that underlies their belief that there’s nothing really to negotiate with Hamas, that Hamas is not a political actor that they have really anything to talk about with. Are they right about what Hamas wants? Are they right that the demands here are fundamentally irreconcilable?
Tareq Baconi: I don’t think the demands are fundamentally irreconcilable. I think it depends on the diplomatic process and how that unfolds. Now, Hamas itself, over the course of its history, has offered various concessions at different points and in different ways that suggests that the movement is aware of the need for a political settlement and is open to negotiations. The narrative that you’ve just outlined, which is the Israeli narrative, is one that means that none of these political interventions can be taken seriously.
So just to say one example: When Hamas was democratically elected and it entered into the body of the Palestinian Authority, the movement ended up offering a whole host of concessions in discussions directly with Fatah to try to achieve a reconciliation agreement. And several were achieved. The most important was achieved under Saudi custodianship. And that was aimed at creating a unity government committed to the creation of a Palestinian state on ’67 lands.
And in a concession by Hamas, they said, we will put any future referendum on any peace agreement to the Palestinian people. That was the Mecca agreement in 2007. And the international community, led by the U.S., commenced a regime change operation that was aimed at making sure that Hamas would be removed from power, to the point where a civil war happened and Hamas took over the Gaza Strip.
This narrative that the movement wants the destruction of the state of Israel, and therefore, there’s no point in negotiating with it, was one that was used against the PLO before Hamas. And that was the reason why the PLO, before Hamas, as a secular nationalist party, was also accused of being a terrorist organization that was not open to any diplomatic maneuvering or intervention. And that was partly the reason why the PLO ended up laying down its arms and deciding to commit to a diplomatic process. And that still doesn’t lead to Palestinian statehood. Hamas is a movement that grows out of that context. It sees what that historic concession does. It sees how it’s received, and it sees how it doesn’t necessarily lead to the outcome that the PLO had expected.
__________
From his interview with Michel Martin from Amanpour & Company:
On Hamas's vision:
Martin: What I’m asking you though, is it still the vision of Hamas that Israel should be eliminated?
Baconi: The way—
Martin: If not, what is their vision of what should occur?
Baconi: The way that Hamas talks about its vision, and I should say that it’s not, this is not necessarily the vision that is shared by many Palestinians. Hamas’ ideological vision is that it would liberate Palestine. What that means is that it would create a state as it defines it, that is grounded in Islam, and that has Islam as its founding principles under which Jews, Christians, and Palestinians would live in equality. That’s how Hamas defines its political project. Now, what that means in practice is unclear.
And it doesn’t necessarily mean the destruction of the state of Israel in the way that that phrase is manipulated to mean, which is throwing Israeli Jews into the sea, that’s not necessarily a part of their political project. I’m sure there are members in Hamas that would believe that they should be doing that. But the political project as it defines it, is the creation of a state in Palestine in which all three religions can live. And it would be a state that’s grounded in Islam.
On referring to Hamas as a terrorist organization:
Martin: I noticed that you used the term “national movement,” obviously others, other analysts do as well. There’s a lot of debate about what to call Hamas and I understand that from your writings that you think calling Hamas a terrorist group kind of misrepresents reality. So first of all, what do you call them and why do you say that calling them terrorists, misrepresents the reality as you see it?
Baconi: So I refer to Hamas as an Islamic resistance movement, and it’s a Palestinian national movement – so the best way to describe it is an Islamic national movement in Palestine. And the way that I refer to it in this way is because the movement is committed to the liberation of Palestine, it has never thought of its calling or its political project as extending beyond the land of Palestine. It’s specifically focused on liberating Palestine from Zionist colonization. So in that sense, it’s a national movement in the same way that other chapters of the Muslim Brotherhood in the region, like the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt, is confined to Egypt. And it defines its ideology through Islam. And that’s why it’s an Islamic national movement.
Martin: It’s not like Daaesh or ISIS, as it were, which is seeking sort of a regional caliphate?
Baconi: Absolutely. And that brings me up to the second point you asked about terrorism. The reason why it’s manipulative to use that term is because it misses that nuance and it decontextualizes Hamas. So it suggests that Hamas is engaging in armed resistance or violence for the sake of violence. It misses the point that Hamas is engaged in armed resistance against a colonial force – a force that’s maintaining an occupation that’s illegal under international law. When Western policymakers engage with Hamas only as a terrorist organization, they’re suggesting that that can be dealt with militarily. They’re abdicating on their responsibility of dealing with the question of Palestine, politically.
posted by i like crows very much at 1:11 AM on May 11 [8 favorites]
Ezra Klein: So one view that Israelis have of Hamas is that what it wants, the only thing that it will accept is the end of the state of Israel, the end of the state of Israel as any kind of Jewish state, the end of the state of Israel on that land. And that underlies their belief that there’s nothing really to negotiate with Hamas, that Hamas is not a political actor that they have really anything to talk about with. Are they right about what Hamas wants? Are they right that the demands here are fundamentally irreconcilable?
Tareq Baconi: I don’t think the demands are fundamentally irreconcilable. I think it depends on the diplomatic process and how that unfolds. Now, Hamas itself, over the course of its history, has offered various concessions at different points and in different ways that suggests that the movement is aware of the need for a political settlement and is open to negotiations. The narrative that you’ve just outlined, which is the Israeli narrative, is one that means that none of these political interventions can be taken seriously.
So just to say one example: When Hamas was democratically elected and it entered into the body of the Palestinian Authority, the movement ended up offering a whole host of concessions in discussions directly with Fatah to try to achieve a reconciliation agreement. And several were achieved. The most important was achieved under Saudi custodianship. And that was aimed at creating a unity government committed to the creation of a Palestinian state on ’67 lands.
And in a concession by Hamas, they said, we will put any future referendum on any peace agreement to the Palestinian people. That was the Mecca agreement in 2007. And the international community, led by the U.S., commenced a regime change operation that was aimed at making sure that Hamas would be removed from power, to the point where a civil war happened and Hamas took over the Gaza Strip.
This narrative that the movement wants the destruction of the state of Israel, and therefore, there’s no point in negotiating with it, was one that was used against the PLO before Hamas. And that was the reason why the PLO, before Hamas, as a secular nationalist party, was also accused of being a terrorist organization that was not open to any diplomatic maneuvering or intervention. And that was partly the reason why the PLO ended up laying down its arms and deciding to commit to a diplomatic process. And that still doesn’t lead to Palestinian statehood. Hamas is a movement that grows out of that context. It sees what that historic concession does. It sees how it’s received, and it sees how it doesn’t necessarily lead to the outcome that the PLO had expected.
__________
From his interview with Michel Martin from Amanpour & Company:
On Hamas's vision:
Martin: What I’m asking you though, is it still the vision of Hamas that Israel should be eliminated?
Baconi: The way—
Martin: If not, what is their vision of what should occur?
Baconi: The way that Hamas talks about its vision, and I should say that it’s not, this is not necessarily the vision that is shared by many Palestinians. Hamas’ ideological vision is that it would liberate Palestine. What that means is that it would create a state as it defines it, that is grounded in Islam, and that has Islam as its founding principles under which Jews, Christians, and Palestinians would live in equality. That’s how Hamas defines its political project. Now, what that means in practice is unclear.
And it doesn’t necessarily mean the destruction of the state of Israel in the way that that phrase is manipulated to mean, which is throwing Israeli Jews into the sea, that’s not necessarily a part of their political project. I’m sure there are members in Hamas that would believe that they should be doing that. But the political project as it defines it, is the creation of a state in Palestine in which all three religions can live. And it would be a state that’s grounded in Islam.
On referring to Hamas as a terrorist organization:
Martin: I noticed that you used the term “national movement,” obviously others, other analysts do as well. There’s a lot of debate about what to call Hamas and I understand that from your writings that you think calling Hamas a terrorist group kind of misrepresents reality. So first of all, what do you call them and why do you say that calling them terrorists, misrepresents the reality as you see it?
Baconi: So I refer to Hamas as an Islamic resistance movement, and it’s a Palestinian national movement – so the best way to describe it is an Islamic national movement in Palestine. And the way that I refer to it in this way is because the movement is committed to the liberation of Palestine, it has never thought of its calling or its political project as extending beyond the land of Palestine. It’s specifically focused on liberating Palestine from Zionist colonization. So in that sense, it’s a national movement in the same way that other chapters of the Muslim Brotherhood in the region, like the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt, is confined to Egypt. And it defines its ideology through Islam. And that’s why it’s an Islamic national movement.
Martin: It’s not like Daaesh or ISIS, as it were, which is seeking sort of a regional caliphate?
Baconi: Absolutely. And that brings me up to the second point you asked about terrorism. The reason why it’s manipulative to use that term is because it misses that nuance and it decontextualizes Hamas. So it suggests that Hamas is engaging in armed resistance or violence for the sake of violence. It misses the point that Hamas is engaged in armed resistance against a colonial force – a force that’s maintaining an occupation that’s illegal under international law. When Western policymakers engage with Hamas only as a terrorist organization, they’re suggesting that that can be dealt with militarily. They’re abdicating on their responsibility of dealing with the question of Palestine, politically.
posted by i like crows very much at 1:11 AM on May 11 [8 favorites]
The idea that refusing to erase the identity of victims is some sort of nod to the perpetrator's framing of crimes is so absurd I don't know where to begin.
Perhaps you could begin by teasing apart the idea of erasure from that of assigning responsibility.
I obviously do not, cannot, and have no desire to dispute that the Holocaust was perpetrated against Jews on the basis of their being Jews. The point is that Jewishness is no more a cause of industrial-scale murder than Blackness is of slavery or womanhood of rape, despite routine attempts by perpetrators of all stripes to assert that a victim's identity not only justifies but actually causes their crimes.
That framing is pernicious. It's also extremely widespread, even among people who would appear to have every reason to reject it. So no, I'm not attempting to erase anything, merely to draw attention to perpetrator framing as a framing, and invite those who have not spotted it as such to go looking for it in their own thinking.
It's very very prominent in the utterances of Israeli spokespeople: Hamas did October 7th, Palestine is Hamas, therefore Jews cannot possibly be safe unless we destroy Palestine. Look what they made us do!
And the framing is not merely morally unsound, it's factually incorrect. In order to keep Jews safe from genocide we need to build effective institutions that rid the world of it by shutting it down whenever somebody tries to start one, not actively impede such efforts by committing it against Palestine.
This is a principle general enough to encompass, not erase, the identities of all the groups that acting on it would protect. The only arguments I've ever heard against it have been made on the basis that it's an impractical, utopian pipedream because actually, ultimately, group identity does cause genocide. Which is pure perpetrator framing, and wrong! Most of the world's peoples manage to rub shoulders with their neighbours without killing or displacing them. If only the country that so persistently demands to be treated like any other could find it within itself to do likewise.
posted by flabdablet at 3:02 AM on May 11 [6 favorites]
Perhaps you could begin by teasing apart the idea of erasure from that of assigning responsibility.
I obviously do not, cannot, and have no desire to dispute that the Holocaust was perpetrated against Jews on the basis of their being Jews. The point is that Jewishness is no more a cause of industrial-scale murder than Blackness is of slavery or womanhood of rape, despite routine attempts by perpetrators of all stripes to assert that a victim's identity not only justifies but actually causes their crimes.
That framing is pernicious. It's also extremely widespread, even among people who would appear to have every reason to reject it. So no, I'm not attempting to erase anything, merely to draw attention to perpetrator framing as a framing, and invite those who have not spotted it as such to go looking for it in their own thinking.
It's very very prominent in the utterances of Israeli spokespeople: Hamas did October 7th, Palestine is Hamas, therefore Jews cannot possibly be safe unless we destroy Palestine. Look what they made us do!
And the framing is not merely morally unsound, it's factually incorrect. In order to keep Jews safe from genocide we need to build effective institutions that rid the world of it by shutting it down whenever somebody tries to start one, not actively impede such efforts by committing it against Palestine.
This is a principle general enough to encompass, not erase, the identities of all the groups that acting on it would protect. The only arguments I've ever heard against it have been made on the basis that it's an impractical, utopian pipedream because actually, ultimately, group identity does cause genocide. Which is pure perpetrator framing, and wrong! Most of the world's peoples manage to rub shoulders with their neighbours without killing or displacing them. If only the country that so persistently demands to be treated like any other could find it within itself to do likewise.
posted by flabdablet at 3:02 AM on May 11 [6 favorites]
I am still kind of reeling from the idea that the actions of the Biden administration have in any way been particularly politically savvy. It may be savvy for a certain segment of the American audience who want to buy into "incremental" progress and believes in whatever is happening behind-the-scenes, but to me, personally, it looks like a betrayal of every principle he ran on - empathy for everyone, a commitment to human rights and international law, etc.
Meanwhile, Israel Defense Minister is proposing a whole new settler city in the West Bank, in Samaria - so much for halting settler development.
NYT Gift Link: Isolated and Defiant, Israel Vows to Stand Alone in its War on Hamas: For many, it was a reminder that the context of Israeli life is still colored by the country’s own suffering. What Israelis discuss at dinner are friends called up to fight. What they see are cities and towns covered with the portraits of hostages unreturned, apps sending alerts for regular rocket attacks from Hezbollah along the northern border, and graffiti in Tel Aviv that reads, “Hamas = ISIS.”
“There is a total disconnect between how Israelis view the situation and how the world does,” Mr. Novik said. “Mentally, we are not in the seventh month since Oct. 7. Mentally, we are in Oct. 8.”
Zeteo/Substack video (I assume this will be posted on YouTube soon) - After serving in Israel’s war against Gaza in 2014 and seeing their country’s military operations up close, Benzion Sanders and Ariel Bernstein, two former special forces soldiers, turned into anti-occupation activists and have been speaking out ever since against their country’s brutal oppression of Palestinians.
They joined ‘Mehdi Unfiltered’ to discuss what they learned from their own Gaza experience and how they view the current Israeli campaign in Rafah – and the right-wing trends in Israeli society.
posted by toastyk at 7:26 AM on May 11 [10 favorites]
Meanwhile, Israel Defense Minister is proposing a whole new settler city in the West Bank, in Samaria - so much for halting settler development.
NYT Gift Link: Isolated and Defiant, Israel Vows to Stand Alone in its War on Hamas: For many, it was a reminder that the context of Israeli life is still colored by the country’s own suffering. What Israelis discuss at dinner are friends called up to fight. What they see are cities and towns covered with the portraits of hostages unreturned, apps sending alerts for regular rocket attacks from Hezbollah along the northern border, and graffiti in Tel Aviv that reads, “Hamas = ISIS.”
“There is a total disconnect between how Israelis view the situation and how the world does,” Mr. Novik said. “Mentally, we are not in the seventh month since Oct. 7. Mentally, we are in Oct. 8.”
Zeteo/Substack video (I assume this will be posted on YouTube soon) - After serving in Israel’s war against Gaza in 2014 and seeing their country’s military operations up close, Benzion Sanders and Ariel Bernstein, two former special forces soldiers, turned into anti-occupation activists and have been speaking out ever since against their country’s brutal oppression of Palestinians.
They joined ‘Mehdi Unfiltered’ to discuss what they learned from their own Gaza experience and how they view the current Israeli campaign in Rafah – and the right-wing trends in Israeli society.
posted by toastyk at 7:26 AM on May 11 [10 favorites]
When the PLO got serious about negotiating a peace deal Arafat made a statement recognizing Israel’s right to exist. When Saddat and Egypt got serious about peace he got on a plane and went to Tel Aviv. The same goes for Netanyahu. If he wants peace he has to recognize Palestine has a right to exist. The same goes for Hamas.
posted by interogative mood at 12:31 PM on May 11 [1 favorite]
posted by interogative mood at 12:31 PM on May 11 [1 favorite]
The Holocaust was perpetrated because its perpetrators chose to treat that group, along with several other, smaller groups, as subhuman.
No, the American ku Klux Klan coined subhuman which the Nazis co-opted and spread into the ideology in 1925. the apparatus of destruction was already in place by 1932, what perpetuated the Holocaust was laws enacted by the state to suppress, jail and kill human beings.
for example the euthanization of German citizens was discovered by the German Church whichHitler promptly stopped ibut continue that later on. even then apparently the German people had a problem with the subhuman context to their relatives being gassed.
posted by clavdivs at 1:33 PM on May 11
No, the American ku Klux Klan coined subhuman which the Nazis co-opted and spread into the ideology in 1925. the apparatus of destruction was already in place by 1932, what perpetuated the Holocaust was laws enacted by the state to suppress, jail and kill human beings.
for example the euthanization of German citizens was discovered by the German Church whichHitler promptly stopped ibut continue that later on. even then apparently the German people had a problem with the subhuman context to their relatives being gassed.
posted by clavdivs at 1:33 PM on May 11
Can I gently suggest that if we want to have a discussion about the origins of racial dehumanization/the holocaust/antisemitism that it happen in another thread?
posted by lalochezia at 4:06 PM on May 11 [11 favorites]
posted by lalochezia at 4:06 PM on May 11 [11 favorites]
I just want to again point out that even if Hamas leadership refuses to commit to agreeing Israel has a right to exist — which I think maybe is incorrect because I thought they some time ago agreed to a two state solution — but even if Hamas leadership continued to be as antisemitism and anti-Jewish as they are made out to be, it would not justify the death of probably 15,000 children, the maiming and orphaning of thousands more and the denial of health care and education and FOOD to nearly all Palestinian children in Gaza (and similar though lesser frequent crimes against children in the West Bank).
Whatever Israel is doing right now to “eliminate” Hamas is not working to remove Hamas but it is working to destroy the lives and cultural institutions of 2 million people most of whom probably don’t really support Hamas or have any control over what they do. Especially the children.
posted by R343L at 6:28 PM on May 11 [16 favorites]
Whatever Israel is doing right now to “eliminate” Hamas is not working to remove Hamas but it is working to destroy the lives and cultural institutions of 2 million people most of whom probably don’t really support Hamas or have any control over what they do. Especially the children.
posted by R343L at 6:28 PM on May 11 [16 favorites]
The same goes for Netanyahu. If he wants peace he has to recognize Palestine has a right to exist.
If Netanyahu, or indeed any member of Likud or the parties to its right, had ever wanted peace then they would have shown some sign of it long since. I'm not sure there's much understanding to be gained by continually positing this counterfactual as if it were in some way realistic.
What Likud does want is very easy to discern. All you need to do is match up what it says with what it does. It's perfectly clear that what Likud continues to do to Palestine is commit exactly those horrors it endlessly accuses Hamas of intending to visit upon Israel.
posted by flabdablet at 7:23 PM on May 11 [5 favorites]
If Netanyahu, or indeed any member of Likud or the parties to its right, had ever wanted peace then they would have shown some sign of it long since. I'm not sure there's much understanding to be gained by continually positing this counterfactual as if it were in some way realistic.
What Likud does want is very easy to discern. All you need to do is match up what it says with what it does. It's perfectly clear that what Likud continues to do to Palestine is commit exactly those horrors it endlessly accuses Hamas of intending to visit upon Israel.
posted by flabdablet at 7:23 PM on May 11 [5 favorites]
To be clear, I am not saying Jewish identity caused the Holocaust or even that Biden thinks it did. I'm saying that I think Biden came of age at a time when people believed the Holocaust was a unique event and that the best-known severely-affected group required special protection because of it. (As a person with disabilities, I have some feelings about that and how American eugenics were incorporated by the Nazis that are not relevant to this discussion.) I think Biden, like many people, has internalized the framing of his youth and is trying to do the moral thing with a lot of cognitive dissonance between the feeling that "Israel must be protected because it was created to protect Jews after the Holocaust" and everything going on in Gaza right now.
I'm also not saying I think Biden is right on the morals or the politics. I'm just saying I think he and a lot of other Americans of generally good will have this kind of cognitive framing, as opposed to "I want Israel to exist because the Rapture is about to happen" or other more mustache-twirling motives. People can have good motives and still end up being wrong.
posted by gentlyepigrams at 8:27 PM on May 11 [6 favorites]
I'm also not saying I think Biden is right on the morals or the politics. I'm just saying I think he and a lot of other Americans of generally good will have this kind of cognitive framing, as opposed to "I want Israel to exist because the Rapture is about to happen" or other more mustache-twirling motives. People can have good motives and still end up being wrong.
posted by gentlyepigrams at 8:27 PM on May 11 [6 favorites]
That's the tricky thing about framings. We don't need to agree with the position of the party whose framings we're using in order to have those framings warp and twist our own thinking to the point of making us capable of ignoring and/or discounting what's happening right under our noses even at the cost of considerable cognitive dissonance.
posted by flabdablet at 8:38 PM on May 11 [3 favorites]
posted by flabdablet at 8:38 PM on May 11 [3 favorites]
I need to find out more about this but per this tweet (quoting CBC Egypt): Something is up in Egypt
All of a sudden, the state media especially the regime loyalists are calling for the termination of Camp David after being silent or brushing off Israel crossing Egypt's red line for now 3 days
posted by cendawanita at 12:39 AM on May 12 [2 favorites]
All of a sudden, the state media especially the regime loyalists are calling for the termination of Camp David after being silent or brushing off Israel crossing Egypt's red line for now 3 days
posted by cendawanita at 12:39 AM on May 12 [2 favorites]
Yousef Munayyer on Twitter
All the posts coming out of Gaza suggest Israel's genocide has escalated significantly in the last 24 hours.
It's getting really, really bad, folks.
posted by adrienneleigh at 4:37 AM on May 12 [8 favorites]
All the posts coming out of Gaza suggest Israel's genocide has escalated significantly in the last 24 hours.
It's getting really, really bad, folks.
posted by adrienneleigh at 4:37 AM on May 12 [8 favorites]
I've been talking less because like I feel the cumulative damage of this to my sanity keeps increasing, any respect for any liberal or Zionist or international order org degrades another step every day. People are still playing dumb, on metafilter, on twitter, in "respectable" media outlets"
Half of every Israeli you ever see is saying that this is all hamas, lies, the Israelis would never do a crime, and the second half are laughing and saying they approve and its justified and demanding random Palestinian children and parents kill themselves in pointless uprising before they will have sympathy for dead toddlers. The second half makes clear that the first half are full of shit.
posted by Audreynachrome at 4:41 AM on May 12 [9 favorites]
Half of every Israeli you ever see is saying that this is all hamas, lies, the Israelis would never do a crime, and the second half are laughing and saying they approve and its justified and demanding random Palestinian children and parents kill themselves in pointless uprising before they will have sympathy for dead toddlers. The second half makes clear that the first half are full of shit.
posted by Audreynachrome at 4:41 AM on May 12 [9 favorites]
Morally bankrupt nation, I imagine it's like meeting Australians in 1870 shooting Indigenous Australians for spearing sheep, when they think they're being kind it's the most egregious paternalistic racism you've ever seen live
posted by Audreynachrome at 4:44 AM on May 12 [6 favorites]
posted by Audreynachrome at 4:44 AM on May 12 [6 favorites]
On Not Liking South Africa
Idk if anyone has linked this yet, but I think its great in the way that it's incredibly depressing about the best future we can expect from even a one-state US-led solution. The average Israeli seems so integrated into some angle of a white supremacist view. I say white, it's complex, but the fact that Israelis seem to consider themselves superior to Arab/Muslim people in a way that can't be altered by conditions does confirm them for me as aligned with white people in the global white supremacy axis.
posted by Audreynachrome at 4:51 AM on May 12 [10 favorites]
Idk if anyone has linked this yet, but I think its great in the way that it's incredibly depressing about the best future we can expect from even a one-state US-led solution. The average Israeli seems so integrated into some angle of a white supremacist view. I say white, it's complex, but the fact that Israelis seem to consider themselves superior to Arab/Muslim people in a way that can't be altered by conditions does confirm them for me as aligned with white people in the global white supremacy axis.
posted by Audreynachrome at 4:51 AM on May 12 [10 favorites]
the fact that Israelis seem to consider themselves superior to Arab/Muslim people in a way that can't be altered by conditions
Not just Israelis, white Western liberals in general. It's been especially disheartening over the past seven months to see some of the most vile pro-genocide, anti-Palestinian sentiment coming from people on Twitter with Ukrainian flag avatars. It's something that's really underlined the way that a significant swath of people in the West are deeply and fundamentally racist and/or Islamophobic.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 8:29 AM on May 12 [8 favorites]
Not just Israelis, white Western liberals in general. It's been especially disheartening over the past seven months to see some of the most vile pro-genocide, anti-Palestinian sentiment coming from people on Twitter with Ukrainian flag avatars. It's something that's really underlined the way that a significant swath of people in the West are deeply and fundamentally racist and/or Islamophobic.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 8:29 AM on May 12 [8 favorites]
My condolences to you and yours, Press. That is awful.
.
posted by kensington314 at 9:13 AM on May 12
.
posted by kensington314 at 9:13 AM on May 12
Meanwhile, Israel Defense Minister is proposing a whole new settler city in the West Bank, in Samaria - so much for halting settler development.
The occupied territories appear to be considered Lebensraum(*) in the classical Fascist expansionist and nationalist senses and have been for some time. This is from far-right ministers in Netanyahu's own cabinet. The question has only been how far to let settlers go, so that any outside opposition is neutralized, and whether populations in the occupied territories should be deported or exterminated, whichever can be cast as a "correct, just, moral and humane solution" using the words of security minister Ben Gvir. If you cannot deport effectively stateless human beings, there aren't many options left, unless you have a blank checkbook with (US) defense contractors and have the assistance of state actors that will block any attempts to stop you via the UN or other international bodies.
*: A criticism also leveled by Arab Israelis like Ahmad Tibi.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 4:53 PM on May 12 [4 favorites]
The occupied territories appear to be considered Lebensraum(*) in the classical Fascist expansionist and nationalist senses and have been for some time. This is from far-right ministers in Netanyahu's own cabinet. The question has only been how far to let settlers go, so that any outside opposition is neutralized, and whether populations in the occupied territories should be deported or exterminated, whichever can be cast as a "correct, just, moral and humane solution" using the words of security minister Ben Gvir. If you cannot deport effectively stateless human beings, there aren't many options left, unless you have a blank checkbook with (US) defense contractors and have the assistance of state actors that will block any attempts to stop you via the UN or other international bodies.
*: A criticism also leveled by Arab Israelis like Ahmad Tibi.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 4:53 PM on May 12 [4 favorites]
People are still playing dumb, on metafilter, on twitter, in "respectable" media outlets"
Here's Lewis Goodall playing dumb on LBC while getting schooled by Husam Zomlot (YouTube/Piped/Invidious, 11m52s). I link to that not because the video is particularly exceptional or informative but mainly for the comments, which as of linking are pretty much entirely shitting on Goodall for a performance deserving nothing else.
The last thing Zomlot says is entirely correct: "You see your kids now, and the students worldwide. You see the movement. This reminds me of the anti-apartheid movement. People get it. People get it! You in the media are not getting it."
Try not to be disheartened by the amount of pro-genocide chaff being thrown in your eyes by the dead bird site's engagement algorithm. Go to the pub. Talk to your neighbours. People get it.
posted by flabdablet at 4:59 PM on May 12 [6 favorites]
Here's Lewis Goodall playing dumb on LBC while getting schooled by Husam Zomlot (YouTube/Piped/Invidious, 11m52s). I link to that not because the video is particularly exceptional or informative but mainly for the comments, which as of linking are pretty much entirely shitting on Goodall for a performance deserving nothing else.
The last thing Zomlot says is entirely correct: "You see your kids now, and the students worldwide. You see the movement. This reminds me of the anti-apartheid movement. People get it. People get it! You in the media are not getting it."
Try not to be disheartened by the amount of pro-genocide chaff being thrown in your eyes by the dead bird site's engagement algorithm. Go to the pub. Talk to your neighbours. People get it.
posted by flabdablet at 4:59 PM on May 12 [6 favorites]
A criticism also leveled by Arab Israelis like Ahmad Tibi
There was a time not very long ago where alluding to the German word for "living space" in connection with Israel's policy of territorial expansion, a rhetorical move clearly chosen to draw a strong parallel between the policies of Hitler and those of Netanyahu, would have provoked howls of outrage and cries of "how dare you".
It is a tragedy of our time that all one has to do now is point to the endless gallery of pictures of children with blown-off limbs and say: That. That is how I dare.
It is a tragedy of our time that the rogue state of Israel continues to treat the history of the horror visited upon so many of its own people not as a stark illustration of the consequences of dehumanization but as an instruction manual for same.
Drawing parallels between the rhetoric and policies of Likud and those of Hitler's Nazis should be obscene. It should be a comparison so odious and offensive as never to occur to any fair-minded person. And it is a tragedy of our time that the offensiveness of that comparison is as nothing compared to that of the inexpressibly greater obscenity now being perpetrated in the name of the very people with the deepest reason to be hurt by it.
posted by flabdablet at 5:50 PM on May 12 [4 favorites]
There was a time not very long ago where alluding to the German word for "living space" in connection with Israel's policy of territorial expansion, a rhetorical move clearly chosen to draw a strong parallel between the policies of Hitler and those of Netanyahu, would have provoked howls of outrage and cries of "how dare you".
It is a tragedy of our time that all one has to do now is point to the endless gallery of pictures of children with blown-off limbs and say: That. That is how I dare.
It is a tragedy of our time that the rogue state of Israel continues to treat the history of the horror visited upon so many of its own people not as a stark illustration of the consequences of dehumanization but as an instruction manual for same.
Drawing parallels between the rhetoric and policies of Likud and those of Hitler's Nazis should be obscene. It should be a comparison so odious and offensive as never to occur to any fair-minded person. And it is a tragedy of our time that the offensiveness of that comparison is as nothing compared to that of the inexpressibly greater obscenity now being perpetrated in the name of the very people with the deepest reason to be hurt by it.
posted by flabdablet at 5:50 PM on May 12 [4 favorites]
a rhetorical comparison between the two seems opaque considering yet it's brought up by a highlighted quote up thread and to yourself and I have to ask myself why. why opine further for that matter, why am i. Lebensraum: "First popularized around 1901, Lebensraum became a geopolitical goal of Imperial Germany in World War I (1914–1918)."
if anything is closer to Septemberprogramm.
no long fact"The Nazi government aimed at repopulating these lands with Germanic colonists in the name of Lebensraum during and following World War II.[6][7][8][9]. Following? it's an interesting read though I have to ask myself why use using German words and German history to describe Expansionism
making comparison also creates a burden to correct these minor errors in historical analysis for accuracy.
posted by clavdivs at 6:43 PM on May 12
if anything is closer to Septemberprogramm.
no long fact"The Nazi government aimed at repopulating these lands with Germanic colonists in the name of Lebensraum during and following World War II.[6][7][8][9]. Following? it's an interesting read though I have to ask myself why use using German words and German history to describe Expansionism
making comparison also creates a burden to correct these minor errors in historical analysis for accuracy.
posted by clavdivs at 6:43 PM on May 12
There was a time not very long ago where alluding to the German word for "living space" in connection with Israel's policy of territorial expansion, a rhetorical move clearly chosen to draw a strong parallel between the policies of Hitler and those of Netanyahu, would have provoked howls of outrage and cries of "how dare you".
I wouldn't interpret the lack of complaints as anything but boredom of the same arguments. Comparing Israel to the Nazis is a really tired rhetorical play; I can remember seeing it on signs at a pro-Palestinian demonstration in the mid/late 1980s and I'm sure it was already old then. But it remains shocking so people still do it. Yay for them, I guess.
posted by Dip Flash at 7:02 PM on May 12 [2 favorites]
I wouldn't interpret the lack of complaints as anything but boredom of the same arguments. Comparing Israel to the Nazis is a really tired rhetorical play; I can remember seeing it on signs at a pro-Palestinian demonstration in the mid/late 1980s and I'm sure it was already old then. But it remains shocking so people still do it. Yay for them, I guess.
posted by Dip Flash at 7:02 PM on May 12 [2 favorites]
It's unclear what exactly this means, but it seems likely to be important: Egypt has formally stated its intention to join South Africa's ICJ case against Israel.
Nobody thinks Sisi actually cares about Palestinians, so this is definitely a maneuver for some other primary purpose, but it's already rippling in interesting ways across the news & social media.
posted by adrienneleigh at 7:07 PM on May 12 [2 favorites]
Nobody thinks Sisi actually cares about Palestinians, so this is definitely a maneuver for some other primary purpose, but it's already rippling in interesting ways across the news & social media.
posted by adrienneleigh at 7:07 PM on May 12 [2 favorites]
Mod note: Several deleted. Please try to stick to discussing facts, news, and events rather than just sniping at each other and centering the conversation about your personal feelings.
posted by taz (staff) at 10:45 PM on May 12
posted by taz (staff) at 10:45 PM on May 12
Eqbal Ahmad in 1982, on Israel's invasion of Lebanon (Audio):
This is the first time in my political life we are facing an oppressive power whose objectives towards its victims are not those of colonizing them, whose objectives towards their victims are not those of subjugating them, or of merely conquering them. Their objectives are eliminating them, exterminating them, challenging their survival. In that respect, I see no difference between Hitler's attitude towards the Jews and the Israeli attitude towards the Palestinians.
[applause]
We live in times that are more barbarian than we really know by the sheer body counts, for body counts never tell the whole story. Yes, the ancient cities of Sidon and Tyre and Nabatieh are in ruins. Yes, perhaps ten thousand have been killed or perhaps only two hundred have been killed. Yes, the Israelis have carried on a blitzkrieg. Yes, they have been very careful not to kill civilians. Yes, they have been very careless about killing civilians. None of the debate matters. What matters is the objective, the goal, the actuality of what the Israelis want.
[...]
Sharon would like to in a stated fashion drive these people out from Lebanon. That is also of course the commitment of the Phalangists. Drive them out or bury them under. Drive them out of that land, the refugees, or bury them under.
Drive them out— where shall they go? They come from Galilee, as Leah[?] was pointing out, the majority of them. Where are they going to go? Well, to Palestine, says Sharon. Where is Palestine? Sharon has created a new geography, not only a new history. Palestine is Jordan.
But what happens if they don't go or Jordan closes its borders? Well, what happens when one solution doesn't work? You find a second. And what happens when a second solution doesn't work? You find a third. That is what Hannah Arendt, the great Jewish scholar, discussing Nazi history, described as the banality of evil. The Nazis never wanted to kill the Jews; they only wanted to get rid of them.
In the first stages, their idea of getting rid of them was to send them away from Germany. And the Zionist organ movement, by the way, cooperated rather actively with the Nazis in that stage, to send them to Palestine. When transfer didn't work, when it turned out there were too many and there were too little places to go to, and there were too many difficulties in getting to Palestine, the next solution was concentration. When transfer doesn't work, concentration is tried. When concentration proved very expensive, it was extermination, physically.
What I am trying to say to you, my friends, comrades, brothers and sisters, is that what we are facing with Israel is a two-headed monster. It's both an imperial monster, a colonialist monster, but it is also an exterminist state.
posted by i like crows very much at 2:15 AM on May 13 [6 favorites]
This is the first time in my political life we are facing an oppressive power whose objectives towards its victims are not those of colonizing them, whose objectives towards their victims are not those of subjugating them, or of merely conquering them. Their objectives are eliminating them, exterminating them, challenging their survival. In that respect, I see no difference between Hitler's attitude towards the Jews and the Israeli attitude towards the Palestinians.
[applause]
We live in times that are more barbarian than we really know by the sheer body counts, for body counts never tell the whole story. Yes, the ancient cities of Sidon and Tyre and Nabatieh are in ruins. Yes, perhaps ten thousand have been killed or perhaps only two hundred have been killed. Yes, the Israelis have carried on a blitzkrieg. Yes, they have been very careful not to kill civilians. Yes, they have been very careless about killing civilians. None of the debate matters. What matters is the objective, the goal, the actuality of what the Israelis want.
[...]
Sharon would like to in a stated fashion drive these people out from Lebanon. That is also of course the commitment of the Phalangists. Drive them out or bury them under. Drive them out of that land, the refugees, or bury them under.
Drive them out— where shall they go? They come from Galilee, as Leah[?] was pointing out, the majority of them. Where are they going to go? Well, to Palestine, says Sharon. Where is Palestine? Sharon has created a new geography, not only a new history. Palestine is Jordan.
But what happens if they don't go or Jordan closes its borders? Well, what happens when one solution doesn't work? You find a second. And what happens when a second solution doesn't work? You find a third. That is what Hannah Arendt, the great Jewish scholar, discussing Nazi history, described as the banality of evil. The Nazis never wanted to kill the Jews; they only wanted to get rid of them.
In the first stages, their idea of getting rid of them was to send them away from Germany. And the Zionist organ movement, by the way, cooperated rather actively with the Nazis in that stage, to send them to Palestine. When transfer didn't work, when it turned out there were too many and there were too little places to go to, and there were too many difficulties in getting to Palestine, the next solution was concentration. When transfer doesn't work, concentration is tried. When concentration proved very expensive, it was extermination, physically.
What I am trying to say to you, my friends, comrades, brothers and sisters, is that what we are facing with Israel is a two-headed monster. It's both an imperial monster, a colonialist monster, but it is also an exterminist state.
posted by i like crows very much at 2:15 AM on May 13 [6 favorites]
Nobody thinks Sisi actually cares about Palestinians, so this is definitely a maneuver for some other primary purpose
Mark a countdown to Camp David's dissolution if the EU or the US can't commit to another round of trade deals/development aid like a few months back, if I were to consider anything. That's bad news as much as anything but it was a matter of time when Israel de facto occupied Rafah crossing out of Egypt's management.
posted by cendawanita at 2:22 AM on May 13 [4 favorites]
Mark a countdown to Camp David's dissolution if the EU or the US can't commit to another round of trade deals/development aid like a few months back, if I were to consider anything. That's bad news as much as anything but it was a matter of time when Israel de facto occupied Rafah crossing out of Egypt's management.
posted by cendawanita at 2:22 AM on May 13 [4 favorites]
If Camp David goes down, all bets are off for Israel. They lose a safe border and Suez passage if relations with Egypt denormalize, and i suspect relations with Jordan will go like dominoes.
posted by adrienneleigh at 3:17 AM on May 13 [1 favorite]
posted by adrienneleigh at 3:17 AM on May 13 [1 favorite]
I wouldn't interpret the lack of complaints as anything but boredom of the same arguments. Comparing Israel to the Nazis is a really tired rhetorical play
Denying any comparisons is doing the world no favours either. I will tell you what I don't find boring: the Holocaust is repeatable. Many of us who grew up in N. America consumed that history as a lesson of the Most Terrible Thing Ever and it could not possibly happen again. The late 20th century up to now, has clearly disabused people of that notion.
Why on earth wouldn't you point out the similarities? Are you suggesting there are zero similarities? Of all the words to enter this discussion, I find 'boredom' to be the grossest.
posted by elkevelvet at 7:27 AM on May 13 [10 favorites]
Denying any comparisons is doing the world no favours either. I will tell you what I don't find boring: the Holocaust is repeatable. Many of us who grew up in N. America consumed that history as a lesson of the Most Terrible Thing Ever and it could not possibly happen again. The late 20th century up to now, has clearly disabused people of that notion.
Why on earth wouldn't you point out the similarities? Are you suggesting there are zero similarities? Of all the words to enter this discussion, I find 'boredom' to be the grossest.
posted by elkevelvet at 7:27 AM on May 13 [10 favorites]
Any decision on Camp David is only going to come after a series of steps beyond just talking. It is not inconceivable that the whole framework of Mideast peace agreements could come apart; but there will be a lot of steps along the way. Egypt will seek to maximize its leverage by taking a lot of incremental steps. Keep in mind that Egypt is dealing with lots of big problems, the debt problem from overspending on the New Admin Capital, the fact that not just Gaza but all its other neighbors are in crisis (Sudan, Libya), don't forget the Nile and water security as Ethiopia fills the the Grand Ethiopian Renaissance Dam.
posted by interogative mood at 7:43 AM on May 13 [1 favorite]
posted by interogative mood at 7:43 AM on May 13 [1 favorite]
Yes, nobody thinks the treaty is going to fall apart tomorrow. (Although Israel has unequivocally broken it at this point by taking control of the Rafah crossing.)
posted by adrienneleigh at 9:57 AM on May 13
posted by adrienneleigh at 9:57 AM on May 13
Controlling the Gaza side of the Rafah crossing isn't a violation of the Israel-Egypt peace treaty. The Camp David Accord established the Philadelphi Corridor (including the Rafah crossing) as territory "D" and placed it under the control of the Israeli army, with Egypt restricted to patrolling the opposite side of the border territory "C" with police equipped with light weapons. The Israeli army pulled out in 2005 and responsibility for security on the Gaza side was transferred to the Palestinian Authority. The most recent amendment was in 2021 and increased the number and types of forces Egypt could deploy in area C to increase security and restrict Hamas' efforts to smuggle weapons into Gaza.
posted by interogative mood at 10:35 AM on May 13 [1 favorite]
posted by interogative mood at 10:35 AM on May 13 [1 favorite]
You are correct, i completely misremembered that as a treaty violation. That's my bad for not refreshing my memory on the details before posting!
posted by adrienneleigh at 10:54 AM on May 13 [2 favorites]
posted by adrienneleigh at 10:54 AM on May 13 [2 favorites]
I reiterate: nobody thinks the treaty is going to fall apart tomorrow. (Just as nobody thinks Sisi actually gives a single shit about Palestinians.) But this maneuver by Egypt definitely means something, even if it's not entirely clear what the ramifications will be.
posted by adrienneleigh at 10:55 AM on May 13 [3 favorites]
posted by adrienneleigh at 10:55 AM on May 13 [3 favorites]
I think it is best seen as part of the overall campaign to pressure Israel to do more. Turkey has suspended trade. Egypt is making noises about Camp David. The US stopped some weapons deliveries and issued a report that came right up to the edge of having to do something without committing to doing something. The UN upgraded the Palestinian’s status in the GA. The ICC is probably going to be up next.
posted by interogative mood at 12:05 PM on May 13 [1 favorite]
posted by interogative mood at 12:05 PM on May 13 [1 favorite]
For any other country we're well past boots on the ground or at least international no-fly zone as well as other sanctions but Palestinians aren't people and Israelis are the smolest beans.
posted by cendawanita at 12:40 PM on May 13 [3 favorites]
posted by cendawanita at 12:40 PM on May 13 [3 favorites]
For any other country we're well past boots on the ground or at least international no-fly zone as well as other sanctions but Palestinians aren't people and Israelis are the smolest beans.
None of the ongoing or potential genocides are getting that kind of treatment, I don't think (though I am probably forgetting a few cases where there are UN peacekeepers), aside from sanctions in some cases. People can't even agree on sending peacekeepers or an international force to Haiti, much less riskier situations.
posted by Dip Flash at 12:53 PM on May 13
None of the ongoing or potential genocides are getting that kind of treatment, I don't think (though I am probably forgetting a few cases where there are UN peacekeepers), aside from sanctions in some cases. People can't even agree on sending peacekeepers or an international force to Haiti, much less riskier situations.
posted by Dip Flash at 12:53 PM on May 13
boots on the ground for what. Israel's in the de facto state of war If United States intervened without worldwide consent that would be an act of War. the only country in the region that could support a no-fly zone is United States. I mean we could do it we're about the only ones that could do it and I think if Biden wanted to do that he would have engaged with the UN and something would have been done don't you think.
and Palestinians are people and I have no idea what smolest means but comparing people to a vegetable, are beans a vegetable, it's kind of weird.
posted by clavdivs at 1:03 PM on May 13
and Palestinians are people and I have no idea what smolest means but comparing people to a vegetable, are beans a vegetable, it's kind of weird.
posted by clavdivs at 1:03 PM on May 13
I think if Biden wanted to do that he would have engaged with the UN and something would have been done don't you think.
Yup.
smol beans = tiny violin except you're not the violin, you're the bean.
None of the ongoing or potential genocides are getting that kind of treatment,
Which treatment? Actual diplomatic actions by the world (eg filing briefs in support of the Gambia against Myanmar at the ICJ) or concerted effort to whitewash the genocide by the world (eg filing interventions on behalf of Israel at the ICJ)?
posted by cendawanita at 1:10 PM on May 13 [5 favorites]
Yup.
smol beans = tiny violin except you're not the violin, you're the bean.
None of the ongoing or potential genocides are getting that kind of treatment,
Which treatment? Actual diplomatic actions by the world (eg filing briefs in support of the Gambia against Myanmar at the ICJ) or concerted effort to whitewash the genocide by the world (eg filing interventions on behalf of Israel at the ICJ)?
posted by cendawanita at 1:10 PM on May 13 [5 favorites]
I think if you look at the ongoing crisis in Armenia and Azerbaijan especially with regard to Nagorno-Karabakh you will find that in fact under most circumstances the US does as little as possible. See also the Kurds in Turkey. Look at how long we let the Yugoslavia catastrophe go on before we got serious about it.
posted by interogative mood at 1:32 PM on May 13 [1 favorite]
posted by interogative mood at 1:32 PM on May 13 [1 favorite]
in fact under most circumstances the US does as little as possible
if only the US would do less
- stop blocking UN initiatives re: Israel/Palestine
- stop manipulating N. American media on the issue
- stop providing substantial material assistance to Israel
Do you read what you type?
posted by elkevelvet at 1:38 PM on May 13 [6 favorites]
if only the US would do less
- stop blocking UN initiatives re: Israel/Palestine
- stop manipulating N. American media on the issue
- stop providing substantial material assistance to Israel
Do you read what you type?
posted by elkevelvet at 1:38 PM on May 13 [6 favorites]
1. And what's the energy level of the public advocacy surrounding those crimes?
2. Yes you're right you win of course how terrible we are to consider the particularity of these genocidaires
posted by cendawanita at 1:39 PM on May 13 [4 favorites]
2. Yes you're right you win of course how terrible we are to consider the particularity of these genocidaires
posted by cendawanita at 1:39 PM on May 13 [4 favorites]
under most circumstances the US does as little as possible
In the present circumstance the US gives Israel over three billion dollars a year and the US Congress has just recently voted to send twenty-six billion in military aid to Israel. In most cases the USA is not actively complicit in ongoing genocide, unlike with Israel.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 2:08 PM on May 13 [6 favorites]
In the present circumstance the US gives Israel over three billion dollars a year and the US Congress has just recently voted to send twenty-six billion in military aid to Israel. In most cases the USA is not actively complicit in ongoing genocide, unlike with Israel.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 2:08 PM on May 13 [6 favorites]
We may not have boots on the ground within Gaza, 'but our service members’ safety and wellbeing are still directly impacted'
posted by infini at 2:40 PM on May 13 [2 favorites]
posted by infini at 2:40 PM on May 13 [2 favorites]
The original comment was that any other country doing this would be subject to x, y, z by the US. So I thought from the context it was obvious that by doing something I was talking about sanctions, binding UN resolutions and putting boots on the ground in response to genocide. Perhaps I should have phrased it as there is a lot of inertia in our strategic relationships and we don't change much, even when a particular country does something awful -- countries on our shit list like Cuba, North Korea, Iran, etc excluded.
posted by interogative mood at 2:46 PM on May 13
posted by interogative mood at 2:46 PM on May 13
We may not have boots on the ground within Gaza, 'but our service members’ safety and wellbeing are still directly impacted'
Unhappy coincidence to bring that up, as: (Intercept) American Medical Missions Trapped in Gaza, Facing Death by Dehydration as Population Clings to Life
But those were not the boots that matters, except as when they serve as projections of American soft power.
Perhaps I should have phrased it as there is a lot of inertia in our strategic relationships
And that was what my comment is about.
posted by cendawanita at 2:55 PM on May 13 [4 favorites]
Unhappy coincidence to bring that up, as: (Intercept) American Medical Missions Trapped in Gaza, Facing Death by Dehydration as Population Clings to Life
But those were not the boots that matters, except as when they serve as projections of American soft power.
Perhaps I should have phrased it as there is a lot of inertia in our strategic relationships
And that was what my comment is about.
posted by cendawanita at 2:55 PM on May 13 [4 favorites]
As for the boots that mattered, newest resignation notice: (Guardian) Ex-US military intelligence official says he quit over ‘moral injury’ of Gaza war -
Harrison Mann, who resigned from Defense Intelligence Agency in November, said he kept quiet about motives out of fear
Comments Wesley Morgan: I’ve known Maj. Harrison Mann since we were teenagers, through his 13-year Army career as an infantryman, civil affairs officer, and Middle East foreign area officer.
Whatever you think of his resignation, I can tell you that he is completely genuine.
Since I keep seeing people comment about the Nov. 1 resignation date—five days into the IDF ground campaign—let me offer a reminder of what the IDF had already told us about the scale of the air campaign within a week after Oct. 7: "6,000 bombs into Gaza in 6 days.
For comparison, during the air campaign against ISIS in 2014-19, the US-led coalition dropped 2,000-5,000 munitions per *month* across all of Iraq and Syria.
US monthly bomb drops only exceeded 4,000 during the 2017 destruction of Raqqa."
posted by cendawanita at 2:59 PM on May 13 [6 favorites]
Harrison Mann, who resigned from Defense Intelligence Agency in November, said he kept quiet about motives out of fear
Comments Wesley Morgan: I’ve known Maj. Harrison Mann since we were teenagers, through his 13-year Army career as an infantryman, civil affairs officer, and Middle East foreign area officer.
Whatever you think of his resignation, I can tell you that he is completely genuine.
Since I keep seeing people comment about the Nov. 1 resignation date—five days into the IDF ground campaign—let me offer a reminder of what the IDF had already told us about the scale of the air campaign within a week after Oct. 7: "6,000 bombs into Gaza in 6 days.
For comparison, during the air campaign against ISIS in 2014-19, the US-led coalition dropped 2,000-5,000 munitions per *month* across all of Iraq and Syria.
US monthly bomb drops only exceeded 4,000 during the 2017 destruction of Raqqa."
posted by cendawanita at 2:59 PM on May 13 [6 favorites]
“We don’t have double standards,” Blinken said. “We treat Israel, one of our closest allies and partners, just as we would treat any other country, including in assessing something like international humanitarian law and its compliance with that law.”
Luckily for observers, Blinken has left a substantial public record against which one can test this claim.
posted by infini at 3:03 PM on May 13 [7 favorites]
Luckily for observers, Blinken has left a substantial public record against which one can test this claim.
posted by infini at 3:03 PM on May 13 [7 favorites]
A variety of sources to ensure its not random BS here but that an elected member of the US government has actually gone where Israel wants to go
US senator claims Israel has right to strike Gaza with nuclear weapon
Times of India has the video
The GOP senator compared Israel’s military operations to the U.S. dropping atomic bombs on Japan in World War II, saying, “Israel, do whatever you have to do.”
Lindsey Graham, said in an interview yesterday that America was right when it hit Hiroshima and Nagasaki with nuclear bombs and that they should: ‘Give Israel the bombs they need to end the war.’
This interview from yesterday - whatever yesterday means in your time zone
posted by infini at 3:45 PM on May 13 [6 favorites]
US senator claims Israel has right to strike Gaza with nuclear weapon
Times of India has the video
The GOP senator compared Israel’s military operations to the U.S. dropping atomic bombs on Japan in World War II, saying, “Israel, do whatever you have to do.”
Lindsey Graham, said in an interview yesterday that America was right when it hit Hiroshima and Nagasaki with nuclear bombs and that they should: ‘Give Israel the bombs they need to end the war.’
This interview from yesterday - whatever yesterday means in your time zone
posted by infini at 3:45 PM on May 13 [6 favorites]
smol beans = tiny violin except you're not the violin, you're the bean.
I'd always thought that was a reference to extremely cute kitten/puppy toes, but the explanation makes sense in context.
posted by Dip Flash at 4:13 PM on May 13 [1 favorite]
I'd always thought that was a reference to extremely cute kitten/puppy toes, but the explanation makes sense in context.
posted by Dip Flash at 4:13 PM on May 13 [1 favorite]
Sec. Blinken Casually Admits Entire Gaza Strategy Is Premised on Pointless Mass Death (Adam Johnson for The Column)
The idea that Hamas will not be “eliminated” by bombing, starving, and collectively punishing hundreds of thousands of Palestinian civilians is a point others have made for months, including on the Substack. The whole moral reasoning of the continued mass death in Gaza is that it is pursuant to some type of regime change operation designed to “remove Hamas from power”—that there was a greater good rationalizing all the unprecedented violence. If the White House thinks such a thing is impossible, that defeating Hamas—whatever this means—is not possible with shelling, bombing, starving, and besieging Gaza, then why is it continuing to back the Israeli military operations with regime change as its nominal goal? This isn’t to say the nominal goal would, at all, justify killing over 25,000 civilians, but now that our own leaders don’t believe it, shouldn’t this be a major political scandal? Not a throw away line in a bigger report?posted by adrienneleigh at 10:13 PM on May 13 [10 favorites]
As I’ve argued elsewhere, it’s clear Israel’s true aim is not “hunting for Hamas,” but a combination of Bronze Age mass punishment as revenge and forcible population transfers. But the pretense that this was their goal, and this goal was shared across the US political system, from the White house to Bernie Sanders, was the only justification for the continued carnage. Otherwise, the end goal is either full-blown ethnic cleansing (still very much a threat), or a ceasefire with Hamas—or some Hamas-like entity still in charge of Gaza, at least what’s left of it. If the former is unacceptable, and the latter is inevitable then this raises the obvious question: What is the point of allowing Israel to continue killing hundreds a day until it’s hit some arbitrarily high number of dead Palestinian civilians? What is the point of not calling for a ceasefire two months ago, two weeks ago, or two seconds ago? What is the actual political aim, even if nominal, of any of this mass death?
Pro-Israel liberals holding on to the “hunt for Hamas” fantasy may counter this by claiming there is a gray area between completely defeating Hamas and reducing their capabilities. Indeed, this is how Israel has justified its previous mass bombing campaigns targeting civilians. But, 14 weeks on, there’s no evidence Hamas’ capacity is at all dimensioned[sic] with hundreds of rockets firing from Gaza by the day.
This item in the NYT suggests that at least some, if not many, of the military leadership in Israel are increasingly vocal about being hung out to dry in an unwinnable conflict with no plan for ending it:
Two Israeli officials, who spoke on the condition of anonymity to avoid professional repercussions, said some generals and members of the war cabinet were frustrated with Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu for failing to develop and announce a process for building an alternative to Hamas to govern Gaza.
They said Mr. Netanyahu’s unwillingness to have a serious conversation about the “day after” has made it easier for Hamas to reconstitute itself in places such as Jabaliya in northern Gaza, which Israel first attacked in October — and where it launched a new air and ground assault this week.
The piece ends with an "I told you so" from someone who made this exact warning at the very beginning. (And I'm reminded of how multiple people here were able to make the same prediction back then, too -- it doesn't require being a strategic expert to see something so obvious.)
posted by Dip Flash at 7:30 AM on May 14 [2 favorites]
Two Israeli officials, who spoke on the condition of anonymity to avoid professional repercussions, said some generals and members of the war cabinet were frustrated with Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu for failing to develop and announce a process for building an alternative to Hamas to govern Gaza.
They said Mr. Netanyahu’s unwillingness to have a serious conversation about the “day after” has made it easier for Hamas to reconstitute itself in places such as Jabaliya in northern Gaza, which Israel first attacked in October — and where it launched a new air and ground assault this week.
The piece ends with an "I told you so" from someone who made this exact warning at the very beginning. (And I'm reminded of how multiple people here were able to make the same prediction back then, too -- it doesn't require being a strategic expert to see something so obvious.)
posted by Dip Flash at 7:30 AM on May 14 [2 favorites]
Max Boot who is a right wing columnist reports on a recent conversation he had with General David Petraeus. In the opinion of the general Israel does not have a winning strategy saying, “They are just clearing and leaving to fight in other areas. And that inevitably means that they will have to go back and reclear endlessly.” .
That analysis avoids contemplating that Israel isn’t following a COIN model because they have a different outcome in mind. They want the Palestinians to leave. Their strategy is clear and reclear. Why hold and build something you want to knock down anyway or protect civilians you want to leave and never come back,
I didn’t think at the start of this that Israel would he able to get away with it, but here we are. Gaza has always been the lab for attempts to resolve this conflict. It was the first place given to the Palestinian Authority under the Oslo process. What we see in Gaza is probably the future of Jenin, Ramallah, Hebron, Jericho, etc,
posted by interogative mood at 11:15 AM on May 14 [5 favorites]
That analysis avoids contemplating that Israel isn’t following a COIN model because they have a different outcome in mind. They want the Palestinians to leave. Their strategy is clear and reclear. Why hold and build something you want to knock down anyway or protect civilians you want to leave and never come back,
I didn’t think at the start of this that Israel would he able to get away with it, but here we are. Gaza has always been the lab for attempts to resolve this conflict. It was the first place given to the Palestinian Authority under the Oslo process. What we see in Gaza is probably the future of Jenin, Ramallah, Hebron, Jericho, etc,
posted by interogative mood at 11:15 AM on May 14 [5 favorites]
The Hill: White House ‘strongly’ opposes GOP bill pressuring Biden on Israel aid
The U.S. already paused a shipment of bombs to Israel earlier this month over concerns of a looming full-scale invasion of Rafah. Officials said the large bombs were withheld because of the damage they could cause in high-density areas.
In response, the House this week is slated to vote on the Israel Security Assistance Support Act, which urges the “expeditious delivery” of defense articles and services to Israel, condemns the Biden administration’s decision to pause shipments to Israel and reaffirms Israel’s right to self-defense.
It also calls for funds for the secretaries of Defense and State and the National Security Council to be withheld until defense articles are delivered to Israel.
I think this is beyond "inertia"
posted by cendawanita at 11:27 AM on May 14 [7 favorites]
The U.S. already paused a shipment of bombs to Israel earlier this month over concerns of a looming full-scale invasion of Rafah. Officials said the large bombs were withheld because of the damage they could cause in high-density areas.
In response, the House this week is slated to vote on the Israel Security Assistance Support Act, which urges the “expeditious delivery” of defense articles and services to Israel, condemns the Biden administration’s decision to pause shipments to Israel and reaffirms Israel’s right to self-defense.
It also calls for funds for the secretaries of Defense and State and the National Security Council to be withheld until defense articles are delivered to Israel.
I think this is beyond "inertia"
posted by cendawanita at 11:27 AM on May 14 [7 favorites]
“Look, we don’t talk about red lines when it comes to Israel.”
posted by infini at 12:34 PM on May 14 [5 favorites]
posted by infini at 12:34 PM on May 14 [5 favorites]
Flashback to 1990 when George HW Bush and Sec of State James Baker tried to push a right wing government lead by Shamir into peace while Congress worked on a $400 million dollar aid bill for Israel to help resettle a huge wave of immigration of Soviet Jews to Israel.
Bush would hold up that bill for 11 months and demand it be tied to a settlement moratorium. Yet following the 1991 Gulf War and the SCUD missile attacks on Israel, Congress finally forced Bush to grant the money as humanitarian aid. No settlement moratorium. They even got a billion dollars more than they initially asked for iirc. Bush would also go on to lose his re-election bid. Clinton’s campaign got a lot of support from AIPAC.
posted by interogative mood at 12:36 PM on May 14 [2 favorites]
Bush would hold up that bill for 11 months and demand it be tied to a settlement moratorium. Yet following the 1991 Gulf War and the SCUD missile attacks on Israel, Congress finally forced Bush to grant the money as humanitarian aid. No settlement moratorium. They even got a billion dollars more than they initially asked for iirc. Bush would also go on to lose his re-election bid. Clinton’s campaign got a lot of support from AIPAC.
posted by interogative mood at 12:36 PM on May 14 [2 favorites]
George HW Bush and Sec of State James Baker tried to push a right wing government lead by Shamir into peace
This is the paternalism that I do realise a lot of Americans don't see any problem about
posted by cendawanita at 1:06 PM on May 14 [6 favorites]
This is the paternalism that I do realise a lot of Americans don't see any problem about
posted by cendawanita at 1:06 PM on May 14 [6 favorites]
(but I am just full of pie-in-the-sky ideals... I've had practice for seven months at least)
posted by cendawanita at 1:08 PM on May 14 [2 favorites]
posted by cendawanita at 1:08 PM on May 14 [2 favorites]
Alex Lo in SCMP being his good self
America’s ruling elite is getting unhinged. One after another, it is referencing the country’s past atrocities and war crimes to justify Israel’s genocidal war in Gaza.
posted by infini at 1:18 PM on May 14 [3 favorites]
America’s ruling elite is getting unhinged. One after another, it is referencing the country’s past atrocities and war crimes to justify Israel’s genocidal war in Gaza.
posted by infini at 1:18 PM on May 14 [3 favorites]
I’ve been on this since my first visit to East Jerusalem and the West Bank in 1990. I once had your pie in the sky ideals. After 30 years they are gone — replaced by an acceptance of the depressing reality. You go to Gaza a few times and you see how power became pooled in people who had a big interest in keeping the conflict going. Easy to hold onto power when you blame all the problems on the Israelis and you can use a blockade to control who gets food, medicine and little luxuries. You go to Tel Aviv and Jerusalem and see the other side. Netanyahu and his pals doing the same. Keep the conflict going to advance their own careers. Occasionally march through a Muslim holy place or in an Arab neighborhood, if things get quiet.
I woke up on October 7th, heard the news and cried and I have cried a bit every day since then. Not just for the Israeli victims, but because I understood the inevitability of the Israeli response. Not to excuse the Israelis for doing it; but just knowing this is what always happens. I reserve some of my outrage for Hamas. They set this off. Their leaders will mostly survive and thrive the rubble.
It brings to mind the big reveal in Snow Piercer. Watch the movie and you’ll get it.
posted by interogative mood at 1:49 PM on May 14
I woke up on October 7th, heard the news and cried and I have cried a bit every day since then. Not just for the Israeli victims, but because I understood the inevitability of the Israeli response. Not to excuse the Israelis for doing it; but just knowing this is what always happens. I reserve some of my outrage for Hamas. They set this off. Their leaders will mostly survive and thrive the rubble.
It brings to mind the big reveal in Snow Piercer. Watch the movie and you’ll get it.
posted by interogative mood at 1:49 PM on May 14
This is the paternalism that I do realise a lot of Americans don't see any problem about
The this part is over. It needs people to either want to listen or care about being coerced into listening.
Nobody's listening. Here's some links that tell this story
Malaysia will recognise sanctions imposed by the United Nations only and not by individual countries
today, the United States—the proclaimed upholder of the rules-based order—is not only defending and backing Israel. It’s also denying that any infringements are even taking place.
Washington has failed to consistently apply the Leahy laws—a set of laws intended to prohibit U.S. government funds from being given to foreign actors deemed to be in violation of human rights.
This kind of parallel reality, where even potential violations of U.S. law are seemingly being disregarded by a U.S. president, is destabilizing in a way that the Washington establishment doesn’t seem to have quite appreciated as of yet.
The contrast between the overwhelming consensus of international public opinion and that of U.S. political elites is stark—and it’s getting worse as the catastrophe in Gaza deepens and widens.
The damage that this denial does to global trust in the rules-based order should not be underestimated. The bedrock of the international system is a commitment to the idea that there are rules that are embedded in international law, and that to avoid regressing into a state of “might is right” law of the jungle, the West needs to uphold those international legal norms as much as it can.
The breaking of the rules isn’t new—but Washington’s failure to even acknowledge that such violations are even plausibly going on destroys trust in that system on the one hand and demolishes U.S. credibility on the other. None of that is going unnoticed in the world—which leads to a worrying outcome.
If Washington policymakers are genuinely concerned about realignments on a geopolitical level—as they’ve witnessed in regions such as West Africa in the past year—then they have seen nothing yet.
The U.S. claim that there is a rules-based order—and that Washington is its ultimate guarantor—is now being questioned widely to a fundamental degree. When these norms are being unapologetically broken, and those breaks go unacknowledged—alongside steadfast U.S. military support for Israel—it has a tremendous impact on U.S. partners and allies worldwide.
Unfortunately, if the U.S. government does not engage in a massive course correction soon, there won’t be a rules-based order for it to invoke or rely on, because no one will take Washington seriously—and why should they?
"Any entity, anyone considering business deals with Iran - they need to be aware of the potential risks that they are opening themselves up to and the potential risk of sanctions," he said.
India has not responded to the statement yet.
posted by infini at 2:02 PM on May 14 [7 favorites]
The this part is over. It needs people to either want to listen or care about being coerced into listening.
Nobody's listening. Here's some links that tell this story
Malaysia will recognise sanctions imposed by the United Nations only and not by individual countries
today, the United States—the proclaimed upholder of the rules-based order—is not only defending and backing Israel. It’s also denying that any infringements are even taking place.
Washington has failed to consistently apply the Leahy laws—a set of laws intended to prohibit U.S. government funds from being given to foreign actors deemed to be in violation of human rights.
This kind of parallel reality, where even potential violations of U.S. law are seemingly being disregarded by a U.S. president, is destabilizing in a way that the Washington establishment doesn’t seem to have quite appreciated as of yet.
The contrast between the overwhelming consensus of international public opinion and that of U.S. political elites is stark—and it’s getting worse as the catastrophe in Gaza deepens and widens.
The damage that this denial does to global trust in the rules-based order should not be underestimated. The bedrock of the international system is a commitment to the idea that there are rules that are embedded in international law, and that to avoid regressing into a state of “might is right” law of the jungle, the West needs to uphold those international legal norms as much as it can.
The breaking of the rules isn’t new—but Washington’s failure to even acknowledge that such violations are even plausibly going on destroys trust in that system on the one hand and demolishes U.S. credibility on the other. None of that is going unnoticed in the world—which leads to a worrying outcome.
If Washington policymakers are genuinely concerned about realignments on a geopolitical level—as they’ve witnessed in regions such as West Africa in the past year—then they have seen nothing yet.
The U.S. claim that there is a rules-based order—and that Washington is its ultimate guarantor—is now being questioned widely to a fundamental degree. When these norms are being unapologetically broken, and those breaks go unacknowledged—alongside steadfast U.S. military support for Israel—it has a tremendous impact on U.S. partners and allies worldwide.
Unfortunately, if the U.S. government does not engage in a massive course correction soon, there won’t be a rules-based order for it to invoke or rely on, because no one will take Washington seriously—and why should they?
"Any entity, anyone considering business deals with Iran - they need to be aware of the potential risks that they are opening themselves up to and the potential risk of sanctions," he said.
India has not responded to the statement yet.
posted by infini at 2:02 PM on May 14 [7 favorites]
it's absolutely insane to me to look at everything that has happened and think that Hamas was just spinning the conflict wheels to stay in power. it indicates the same thought patterns from the same people who have been saying the same things since october 7th.
posted by nourishedbytime at 2:13 PM on May 14 [8 favorites]
posted by nourishedbytime at 2:13 PM on May 14 [8 favorites]
it was never going to be enough for some people unless the Palestinians woke up one day and offered up Gaza to Israel on a silver platter, with no protections for Palestinians' rights, culture, history, or lives. those same people will find any reason to minimize Israel's direct and sole responsibility for what is happening right now. it's transparent - and exhausting.
posted by nourishedbytime at 2:19 PM on May 14 [6 favorites]
posted by nourishedbytime at 2:19 PM on May 14 [6 favorites]
power became pooled in people who had a big interest in keeping the conflict going
This is just so stupid and out of touch with reality that I don't even know where to begin, unless you're talking about Likud. You only need to look at settlement expansion over the past 30 years in both the West Bank and East Jerusalem to see which side has an investment in "keeping the conflict going". And yes, it's very easy to blame the problems on Israel, because they're the ones who've been continually building settlements in occupied Palestinian territory in violation of international law for decades.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 2:27 PM on May 14 [5 favorites]
This is just so stupid and out of touch with reality that I don't even know where to begin, unless you're talking about Likud. You only need to look at settlement expansion over the past 30 years in both the West Bank and East Jerusalem to see which side has an investment in "keeping the conflict going". And yes, it's very easy to blame the problems on Israel, because they're the ones who've been continually building settlements in occupied Palestinian territory in violation of international law for decades.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 2:27 PM on May 14 [5 favorites]
This is just so stupid and out of touch with reality that I don't even know where to begin
The reality I saw with my own eyes? You make the same mistake as the pro-Israel crowd in substituting reality with a romantic fantasy of what should be.
posted by interogative mood at 3:07 PM on May 14 [3 favorites]
The reality I saw with my own eyes? You make the same mistake as the pro-Israel crowd in substituting reality with a romantic fantasy of what should be.
posted by interogative mood at 3:07 PM on May 14 [3 favorites]
do brown colonized Others get a say?
posted by infini at 3:20 PM on May 14 [3 favorites]
posted by infini at 3:20 PM on May 14 [3 favorites]
To be very clear: i (along with, i believe, most of the pro-Palestine activists that make people so uncomfortable) am not out here calling for "peace" for the same reason i as a feminist am not heard to call for "equality". The goal is LIBERATION.
posted by adrienneleigh at 4:13 PM on May 14 [7 favorites]
posted by adrienneleigh at 4:13 PM on May 14 [7 favorites]
The reality I saw with my own eyes?
Yep; you're clearly blinded by your own bias (which is very evident). And Hamas didn't "set this off"; ethnic cleansing and/or extermination has always been the Zionist endgame. It's been what Likud and further-right parties have been calling for for decades. You're all too ready to assign most of the blame to the side with the least power in the equation, though.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 4:45 PM on May 14 [9 favorites]
Yep; you're clearly blinded by your own bias (which is very evident). And Hamas didn't "set this off"; ethnic cleansing and/or extermination has always been the Zionist endgame. It's been what Likud and further-right parties have been calling for for decades. You're all too ready to assign most of the blame to the side with the least power in the equation, though.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 4:45 PM on May 14 [9 favorites]
interogative mood said, "You go to Gaza a few times and you see how power became pooled in people who had a big interest in keeping the conflict going. Easy to hold onto power when you blame all the problems on the Israelis and you can use a blockade to control who gets food, medicine and little luxuries. You go to Tel Aviv and Jerusalem and see the other side. Netanyahu and his pals doing the same. Keep the conflict going to advance their own careers."
It's interesting, this portrayal of the conflict as a pure power struggle with all the ideological considerations "factored out" of both sides of the analysis. Both sides. It reminds me of the latter half of this question that Tareq Baconi answered in a Q&A:
Avraham Sela: [...] I wonder whether Mohammed Deif or Yahya Sinwar even come close to thinking in these [anticolonial, philosophical] terms? What made it logical or reasonable for Hamas leadership to go for such an operation? [...] Tell me please, apart from this ideological discussion of anticolonialism and so forth and the really unneeded use of jargonic terminology to tell us in more specific and simple words— what did Hamas think would happen after that operation?
Tareq Baconi: I actually really enjoyed reading your book. And I'm sorry I wasted your lunch hour. You maybe should have gone and had your lunch elsewhere if you didn't learn anything.
There's a couple of things I would say in response to that. First of all, I cannot see how Hamas would not have known that any kind of significant blow to the structure of the blockage would be met with disproportionate force and violence. Even if the operation had only been within the narrow confines of hitting military bases, the impact of that on Palestinian civilians would have been extreme. And obviously Hamas knew that.
Sela: How can you know that? You said you don't know anything about what they were thinking at that time. You only interpret postpartum [?].
Baconi: I know that because Hamas leaders are not stupid and neither are you and neither am I. And neither is anyone sitting in Gaza who's thinking: If there's a significant military blow to Israel, Israel will respond with force. No one in their right mind would think that any kind of successful operation against the Israeli regime would not be met with force. Palestinians have learned that Israel engages in building forms of deterrence to prevent exactly that kind of operation. So Hamas knew that any operation that it carried out against Israel successfully as it has over the past sixteen years would be met with disproportionate force.
Sela: To that extent?
Baconi: To this extent? Maybe not. And this is where their operation ended up going out of hand. I think the way their operation took place on October 7 is not what Hamas had anticipated and therefore their response is also not what Hamas had anticipated.
[...]
Now, I want to answer your point about anticolonial discourse and ideology. You might think this is fanciful discourse. You're sitting in a university. Our point is to try to inject intellectual work in understanding these movements and thinking about how they think. For you to say that someone like Mohammed Deif or other leaders do not think of this in anticolonial forms or using this language is really quite condescending and patronizing. They do talk about it in anticolonial ways. They do understand their struggle in anticolonial terms just like the PLO did before. The fact that you reject that discourse means that you're failing to understand the colonial structure under which Hamas is operating. They might not use Julia Kristeva and philosophers that I have quoted here to talk about what we're talking about. Darwish wrote this poem [Silence for the Sake of Gaza] in 1973, before Hamas was created, talking about anticolonialism and decolonization and the Palestinian struggle in a global context pushing back against settler colonies. The idea that Hamas does not have access to this thinking or does not think in these ways is actually quite racist.
posted by i like crows very much at 4:48 PM on May 14 [10 favorites]
It's interesting, this portrayal of the conflict as a pure power struggle with all the ideological considerations "factored out" of both sides of the analysis. Both sides. It reminds me of the latter half of this question that Tareq Baconi answered in a Q&A:
Avraham Sela: [...] I wonder whether Mohammed Deif or Yahya Sinwar even come close to thinking in these [anticolonial, philosophical] terms? What made it logical or reasonable for Hamas leadership to go for such an operation? [...] Tell me please, apart from this ideological discussion of anticolonialism and so forth and the really unneeded use of jargonic terminology to tell us in more specific and simple words— what did Hamas think would happen after that operation?
Tareq Baconi: I actually really enjoyed reading your book. And I'm sorry I wasted your lunch hour. You maybe should have gone and had your lunch elsewhere if you didn't learn anything.
There's a couple of things I would say in response to that. First of all, I cannot see how Hamas would not have known that any kind of significant blow to the structure of the blockage would be met with disproportionate force and violence. Even if the operation had only been within the narrow confines of hitting military bases, the impact of that on Palestinian civilians would have been extreme. And obviously Hamas knew that.
Sela: How can you know that? You said you don't know anything about what they were thinking at that time. You only interpret postpartum [?].
Baconi: I know that because Hamas leaders are not stupid and neither are you and neither am I. And neither is anyone sitting in Gaza who's thinking: If there's a significant military blow to Israel, Israel will respond with force. No one in their right mind would think that any kind of successful operation against the Israeli regime would not be met with force. Palestinians have learned that Israel engages in building forms of deterrence to prevent exactly that kind of operation. So Hamas knew that any operation that it carried out against Israel successfully as it has over the past sixteen years would be met with disproportionate force.
Sela: To that extent?
Baconi: To this extent? Maybe not. And this is where their operation ended up going out of hand. I think the way their operation took place on October 7 is not what Hamas had anticipated and therefore their response is also not what Hamas had anticipated.
[...]
Now, I want to answer your point about anticolonial discourse and ideology. You might think this is fanciful discourse. You're sitting in a university. Our point is to try to inject intellectual work in understanding these movements and thinking about how they think. For you to say that someone like Mohammed Deif or other leaders do not think of this in anticolonial forms or using this language is really quite condescending and patronizing. They do talk about it in anticolonial ways. They do understand their struggle in anticolonial terms just like the PLO did before. The fact that you reject that discourse means that you're failing to understand the colonial structure under which Hamas is operating. They might not use Julia Kristeva and philosophers that I have quoted here to talk about what we're talking about. Darwish wrote this poem [Silence for the Sake of Gaza] in 1973, before Hamas was created, talking about anticolonialism and decolonization and the Palestinian struggle in a global context pushing back against settler colonies. The idea that Hamas does not have access to this thinking or does not think in these ways is actually quite racist.
posted by i like crows very much at 4:48 PM on May 14 [10 favorites]
Meanwhile, Israeli settlers and civilians are blockading Palestinian villages in the West Bank, destroying food and water aid (and bringing their toddlers to help), and rallying in the thousands (along with government ministers) for the settlement of Gaza. That's just this week. So anyone with a conscience can pretty well discard the idea that "Netanyahu" or "Likud" or even "the Israeli government" is the problem on the Israeli side! The entirety of mainstream Israeli society is set up and organized around these outcomes.
Meanwhile, in Canada:
Meanwhile, in Canada:
If we consider that a similar rate of death would have resulted in 47,000 Torontonians murdered in just six months, maybe we could humanize Gazans for enough time to give ourselves pause — who on earth supports this slaughter?posted by adrienneleigh at 5:43 PM on May 14 [6 favorites]
Well, for one, the City of Toronto, which has allowed Israel to raise its flag at City Hall to celebrate its Independence Day. Independence from what, you’re wondering? Well, from the people who lived there before they did, and who still live there. And who are being murdered as I write these words by Israeli forces.
And in "every accusation is a confession" news, last week Israel used three children as human shields and rifle stands during an attack on Tulkarem refugee camp (which is, for those of you keeping track, in the West Bank, not in Gaza).
Photos of the kids are in that article. Mohammad is 12; Karam is 13; Ibrahim is 14. I don't know how anyone with a soul can look at these poor babies without wanting to scream.
posted by adrienneleigh at 6:04 PM on May 14 [7 favorites]
Photos of the kids are in that article. Mohammad is 12; Karam is 13; Ibrahim is 14. I don't know how anyone with a soul can look at these poor babies without wanting to scream.
posted by adrienneleigh at 6:04 PM on May 14 [7 favorites]
From the Baconi Q&A pasted just above, this snippet seems very appropriate to me:
Baconi: ...So Hamas knew that any operation that it carried out against Israel successfully as it has over the past sixteen years would be met with disproportionate force.
Sela: To that extent?
Baconi: To this extent? Maybe not. And this is where their operation ended up going out of hand. I think the way their operation took place on October 7 is not what Hamas had anticipated and therefore their response is also not what Hamas had anticipated.
To his point about Hamas leaders understanding anticolonial theory, that seems strange that he was put in the position of having to refute the claim that they don't. Some of the Hamas leaders are classically-educated and know their theorists, others are more what Gramsci would have called "organic intellectuals" who know it from living it, but either way they are obviously steeped in it. That just seems so obvious, regardless of your thoughts about Hamas, that I'm a little surprised it needed to be said, but clearly it did.
posted by Dip Flash at 6:15 PM on May 14 [4 favorites]
Baconi: ...So Hamas knew that any operation that it carried out against Israel successfully as it has over the past sixteen years would be met with disproportionate force.
Sela: To that extent?
Baconi: To this extent? Maybe not. And this is where their operation ended up going out of hand. I think the way their operation took place on October 7 is not what Hamas had anticipated and therefore their response is also not what Hamas had anticipated.
To his point about Hamas leaders understanding anticolonial theory, that seems strange that he was put in the position of having to refute the claim that they don't. Some of the Hamas leaders are classically-educated and know their theorists, others are more what Gramsci would have called "organic intellectuals" who know it from living it, but either way they are obviously steeped in it. That just seems so obvious, regardless of your thoughts about Hamas, that I'm a little surprised it needed to be said, but clearly it did.
posted by Dip Flash at 6:15 PM on May 14 [4 favorites]
I think the way their operation took place on October 7 is not what Hamas had anticipated
Yeah, i've been pointing this out for months in these threads, and keep getting accused of being an apologist for terrorism.
posted by adrienneleigh at 6:20 PM on May 14 [7 favorites]
Yeah, i've been pointing this out for months in these threads, and keep getting accused of being an apologist for terrorism.
posted by adrienneleigh at 6:20 PM on May 14 [7 favorites]
My biases were if anything to the left of yours in the beginning. My opinions are not born of some Zionist prejudice. They evolved over 30 years. For me this isn’t an abstract conflict on the other side of the world or something I recently discovered. I went, I studied I learned and I share my observations here. You can believe me, ignore me, pretend I’m lying. I can’t do anything about that.
I’m sure that Sinwar and others are fully versed in all sorts of ideology and well read. Palestinians are generally well educated, a lot of Hamas’ leaders are doctors, lawyers and engineers. Cynical atheists can become great preachers. That doesn’t mean they believe a word of it. You see the palaces and the luxuries they give themselves. How they manipulate events, to keep it going. From the Likud leaders’ perspective they keep it going becuase they assume in the end that it how they will get it all. I think a lot fo the Hamas guys keep it going because once you accept that it is hopeless, you might as well get what you can out of it. Others see the grandmas shift of public option and dream of getting it all, regardless of how many are martyred to get there. I don’t think someone who thought they were going to liberate their people would be sending kids out a suicide bombers. A suicide bomber is more like — we know there is no future for our children, so we’ll send them to blow our enemies up.
posted by interogative mood at 7:39 PM on May 14
I’m sure that Sinwar and others are fully versed in all sorts of ideology and well read. Palestinians are generally well educated, a lot of Hamas’ leaders are doctors, lawyers and engineers. Cynical atheists can become great preachers. That doesn’t mean they believe a word of it. You see the palaces and the luxuries they give themselves. How they manipulate events, to keep it going. From the Likud leaders’ perspective they keep it going becuase they assume in the end that it how they will get it all. I think a lot fo the Hamas guys keep it going because once you accept that it is hopeless, you might as well get what you can out of it. Others see the grandmas shift of public option and dream of getting it all, regardless of how many are martyred to get there. I don’t think someone who thought they were going to liberate their people would be sending kids out a suicide bombers. A suicide bomber is more like — we know there is no future for our children, so we’ll send them to blow our enemies up.
posted by interogative mood at 7:39 PM on May 14
It is not hopeless. Israelis are capable of being reformed and living in peace alongside their neighbours. They are human, and as long as we all recognise each other's humanity, there is hope.
Perhaps that is the difference you do not see, that makes you so despairing and suggest such inhuman solutions and thought processes.
There is hope, Palestine will be free, and giving up is not an option.
posted by Audreynachrome at 7:52 PM on May 14 [5 favorites]
Perhaps that is the difference you do not see, that makes you so despairing and suggest such inhuman solutions and thought processes.
There is hope, Palestine will be free, and giving up is not an option.
posted by Audreynachrome at 7:52 PM on May 14 [5 favorites]
Hamas hasn't used suicide bombing as a tactic since 2008! And most of the suicide bombers during the first and second intifadas were adults! Whether you think that's based in principle or pragmatism, tying Hamas, in 2024, to "sending kids out a[sic] suicide bombers" has zero purpose except dehumanization.
posted by adrienneleigh at 8:45 PM on May 14 [8 favorites]
posted by adrienneleigh at 8:45 PM on May 14 [8 favorites]
Hamas provided a video and identified three men who it said participated in a martyrdom operation (their term for this act) near Rantisi hospital on Nov 9th of last year. Other affiliated groups have conducted their own operations in the last few months. You are correct that the tactic had fallen out of use with only a few attacks in the last decade. However there were numerous times that Hamas threatened to resume such operations.
posted by interogative mood at 11:32 PM on May 14
posted by interogative mood at 11:32 PM on May 14
adrienneleigh, to your point, Baconi addresses this more directly in an answer to a previous question:
Audience member: Do you think the operation— and this ties to the smears, the media apparatus, and the narrative that Israel tries to put out as far as this is a Daesh-ISIS-like terrorist organization, "Look they're after our women," "Look they're after our babies," amplified all the way up to the US president. Do you think the operation was meant to be exactly as it was executed, or was this an operation that went beyond or wrong? [...] The attack on the music festival, the violence, the killing isn't really helpful for those who are trying to defend the cause of liberation. It seems like the operation turned more into a lashing out. [...]
Baconi: Obviously, there's a fog of war. That's very difficult to discount or do the forensic investigation that's needed. But I'll say a few things about October 7th. From my reading of it, Hamas's military operation was initially targeted at military bases around the Gaza Strip with the intention of gathering intelligence, of pushing back against the blockade, and of taking hostages back into the Gaza Strip.
Now, under any kind of planning for that operation, the assumption— and it's a very solid assumption— is that Israeli defense would kick in immediately, so there's a limited time to gather whatever it needed to gather. That's not what happened. Israeli defenses failed spectacularly for a very long period of time. It led to two things. One, Hamas losing control of that specific operation and allowing or being in a situation where its fighters were in civilian populations for an extended period of time without a clear guidance on what to do in that kind of environment because that wasn't a scenario that was considered. It also meant that it wasn't just Hamas. There were other factions and other Palestinians who are not fighters and who are not trained being inside that territory for an extended period of time. It's clear that massacres happened. There are war crimes that had been committed on October 7 against Israeli civilians. It's unclear, and I think leaning towards a no, that Hamas knew that there was a music festival around the Gaza Strip at the time.
Having said all of that, the war crimes that were committed on October 7 were different in the sense that they were within community centers and civilian centers of Israelis, but Hamas has committed war crimes in the past. Suicide bombings are also brutal. Hamas has not shied away in the past from using armed resistance as a form of weapon. The problem in this instance is not just the focus on the war crimes, which obviously Israeli also consistently carries out against Palestinians with no retribution. The problem is the war crimes that happened were then turned into the most brutal, sensationalist forms of violence— beheading babies, the use of rape as a systematic weapon of war, using tropes that have been debunked repeatedly since October 7 but that continue to be used by politicians. That is looking at Hamas in an ISIS-like way is a form of enabling the genocide that's happening.
I just want to say one other thing here. In all instances of anticolonial struggle, there is bloody violence that happens. The question that we need to engage with is: Morally and ethically, what are the structures of dehumanization that allow that to happen? When you say lashing out, of course there's lashing out. How can we expect Palestinians that have been imprisoned for so long, denied every right, walking into a civilian center where life exists quote-unquote "as normal" to not lash out? We have to understand the structures of oppression that allow that dehumanization to take root. That is why colonial structures and apartheid regimes are violent regimes, because they allow that kind of violence to happen.
posted by i like crows very much at 2:15 AM on May 15 [8 favorites]
Audience member: Do you think the operation— and this ties to the smears, the media apparatus, and the narrative that Israel tries to put out as far as this is a Daesh-ISIS-like terrorist organization, "Look they're after our women," "Look they're after our babies," amplified all the way up to the US president. Do you think the operation was meant to be exactly as it was executed, or was this an operation that went beyond or wrong? [...] The attack on the music festival, the violence, the killing isn't really helpful for those who are trying to defend the cause of liberation. It seems like the operation turned more into a lashing out. [...]
Baconi: Obviously, there's a fog of war. That's very difficult to discount or do the forensic investigation that's needed. But I'll say a few things about October 7th. From my reading of it, Hamas's military operation was initially targeted at military bases around the Gaza Strip with the intention of gathering intelligence, of pushing back against the blockade, and of taking hostages back into the Gaza Strip.
Now, under any kind of planning for that operation, the assumption— and it's a very solid assumption— is that Israeli defense would kick in immediately, so there's a limited time to gather whatever it needed to gather. That's not what happened. Israeli defenses failed spectacularly for a very long period of time. It led to two things. One, Hamas losing control of that specific operation and allowing or being in a situation where its fighters were in civilian populations for an extended period of time without a clear guidance on what to do in that kind of environment because that wasn't a scenario that was considered. It also meant that it wasn't just Hamas. There were other factions and other Palestinians who are not fighters and who are not trained being inside that territory for an extended period of time. It's clear that massacres happened. There are war crimes that had been committed on October 7 against Israeli civilians. It's unclear, and I think leaning towards a no, that Hamas knew that there was a music festival around the Gaza Strip at the time.
Having said all of that, the war crimes that were committed on October 7 were different in the sense that they were within community centers and civilian centers of Israelis, but Hamas has committed war crimes in the past. Suicide bombings are also brutal. Hamas has not shied away in the past from using armed resistance as a form of weapon. The problem in this instance is not just the focus on the war crimes, which obviously Israeli also consistently carries out against Palestinians with no retribution. The problem is the war crimes that happened were then turned into the most brutal, sensationalist forms of violence— beheading babies, the use of rape as a systematic weapon of war, using tropes that have been debunked repeatedly since October 7 but that continue to be used by politicians. That is looking at Hamas in an ISIS-like way is a form of enabling the genocide that's happening.
I just want to say one other thing here. In all instances of anticolonial struggle, there is bloody violence that happens. The question that we need to engage with is: Morally and ethically, what are the structures of dehumanization that allow that to happen? When you say lashing out, of course there's lashing out. How can we expect Palestinians that have been imprisoned for so long, denied every right, walking into a civilian center where life exists quote-unquote "as normal" to not lash out? We have to understand the structures of oppression that allow that dehumanization to take root. That is why colonial structures and apartheid regimes are violent regimes, because they allow that kind of violence to happen.
posted by i like crows very much at 2:15 AM on May 15 [8 favorites]
happy nakba day. Much thanks to Israel for really going all out this year. /s
posted by cendawanita at 1:51 PM on May 15 [5 favorites]
posted by cendawanita at 1:51 PM on May 15 [5 favorites]
In Gaza, a hidden threat could kill Palestinians even after a cease-fire (NPR)
The rule of thumb, explosives experts say, is that 10% of munitions do not detonate on impact. That means an estimated 7,500 metric tons of live munition may be scattered throughout the Gaza Strip, according to the United Nations.posted by adrienneleigh at 3:35 PM on May 15 [3 favorites]
"It's everything from mortars, artillery shells and grenades to improvised rockets and bombs and missiles," says Mungo Birch, head of the U.N. Mine Action Service (UNMAS) in the Palestinian territories. "One of the most dangerous times is when people return home."
These weapons could continue to kill and maim Palestinians even if a cease-fire eventually ends the Israel-Hamas war. The U.N. estimates it could take 14 years to make Gaza safe from these bombs.
Joe Biden has done more than arm Israel. Leaked documents reveal his own officials see him as complicit in Gaza’s devastating famine (The Independent)
The level of dissent within the US government agency responsible for administering civilian foreign aid and combating global hunger has been unprecedented.posted by adrienneleigh at 3:38 PM on May 15 [8 favorites]
At least 19 internal dissent memos have been sent since the start of the war by staff at USAID criticising US support for the war in Gaza.
In an internal collective dissent memo drafted this month by numerous employees of USAID, the staff assail the agency and the Biden administration for its “failure to uphold international humanitarian principles and to adhere to its mandate to save lives”.
The leaked draft memo, seen by The Independent, calls for the administration to apply pressure to bring “an end to the Israeli siege that is causing famine”.
Not acting upon repeated warnings like these was a political choice.
“The US has provided both the military and the diplomatic support that enabled famine to emerge in Gaza,” Jeremy Konyndyk, a former high-ranking USAID official under both Barack Obama and Joe Biden who worked on famine prevention in Yemen and South Sudan, told The Independent.
Nour Odeh on Twitter
🚨🚨Happening now: Israeli forces are raiding Ramallah, AlBireh, Nablus, Bethlehem, Tubas, Tulkarem, Jericho, and Qalqilya.
All of those are in the occupied West Bank, not Gaza. Israel has, at this point, gone full-on Final Solution.
On Nakba Day.
posted by adrienneleigh at 4:42 PM on May 15 [10 favorites]
🚨🚨Happening now: Israeli forces are raiding Ramallah, AlBireh, Nablus, Bethlehem, Tubas, Tulkarem, Jericho, and Qalqilya.
All of those are in the occupied West Bank, not Gaza. Israel has, at this point, gone full-on Final Solution.
On Nakba Day.
posted by adrienneleigh at 4:42 PM on May 15 [10 favorites]
A short summary of things that I’ve come across today.
Hezbollah launched a strike consisting of 60 rockets and drones into northern Israel. Israel is currently bombing a number targets in the Beqaah Valley in retaliation.
Gallant is demanding that Netanyahu make an unequivocal statement that Gaza will be turned over to Palestinian control at the conclusion of the war.
Israelis also excited about a video that showed armed men at a UN facility in Gaza. The Israelis are also highlighting a recent UNRWA statement that after a careful review of the Gaza Health Ministry reports the number of women and children killed appears to be about 50% lower than claimed. While this does seem to confirm that the Gaza Health Ministry padded the estimates — even the lower number is still awful, it is nothing to crow about.
Sullivan is going back to the Middle East this weekend for more shuttle diplomacy. He’ll be in Israel, Saudi Arabia and possibly other counties as they try to find some way out of this mess.
The long delayed temporary pier is expected to open in the next few days - but the exact timing is still not public. Several cargo ships including British freighter have recently departed from a port in Cyprus that is serving as a staging area.
posted by interogative mood at 7:48 PM on May 15
Hezbollah launched a strike consisting of 60 rockets and drones into northern Israel. Israel is currently bombing a number targets in the Beqaah Valley in retaliation.
Gallant is demanding that Netanyahu make an unequivocal statement that Gaza will be turned over to Palestinian control at the conclusion of the war.
Israelis also excited about a video that showed armed men at a UN facility in Gaza. The Israelis are also highlighting a recent UNRWA statement that after a careful review of the Gaza Health Ministry reports the number of women and children killed appears to be about 50% lower than claimed. While this does seem to confirm that the Gaza Health Ministry padded the estimates — even the lower number is still awful, it is nothing to crow about.
Sullivan is going back to the Middle East this weekend for more shuttle diplomacy. He’ll be in Israel, Saudi Arabia and possibly other counties as they try to find some way out of this mess.
The long delayed temporary pier is expected to open in the next few days - but the exact timing is still not public. Several cargo ships including British freighter have recently departed from a port in Cyprus that is serving as a staging area.
posted by interogative mood at 7:48 PM on May 15
after a careful review of the Gaza Health Ministry reports the number of women and children killed appears to be about 50% lower than claimed
This is not what the fucking statement says. The total count has not been adjusted downward; they simply added a new count of identified bodies (which is necessarily a subset of total bodies). This has been debunked repeatedly. Marc Owen Jones has a great thread about it on Twitter, but even the right-wing zombie corpse of Newsweek has a fact-check on it (they correctly note it as "false").
posted by adrienneleigh at 8:54 PM on May 15 [19 favorites]
This is not what the fucking statement says. The total count has not been adjusted downward; they simply added a new count of identified bodies (which is necessarily a subset of total bodies). This has been debunked repeatedly. Marc Owen Jones has a great thread about it on Twitter, but even the right-wing zombie corpse of Newsweek has a fact-check on it (they correctly note it as "false").
"The overall number of fatalities that's been tallied by the Ministry of Health in Gaza, which is our counterpart on dealing with the death tolls, that number remains unchanged and it's at more than 35,000 people since October 7," Haq said.The unidentified headless corpse of a preteen child, for instance, isn't any less "a preteen child" because nobody can identify it.
"What's changed is the Ministry of Health in Gaza has updated the breakdown of
fatalities for whom full details have been documented."
posted by adrienneleigh at 8:54 PM on May 15 [19 favorites]
Speaking for myself, i try to be scrupulous about correcting the record when i have inadvertently spread misinformation, because i regard it as both courteous to fellow MeFites (even though i believe that like 95% of y'all loathe me) and a vital component of personal integrity.
posted by adrienneleigh at 9:32 PM on May 15 [11 favorites]
posted by adrienneleigh at 9:32 PM on May 15 [11 favorites]
Israelis also excited about a video that showed armed men at a UN facility in Gaza.
This was apparently Palestinian security forces who had to dress in undercover due to the Israeli propensity to target them with lethal force. The other thing why they were at the facility was in order to escort UN staff to safety, again due to the Israeli propensity to target them with lethal force. Within this week, it was confirmed that an Indian national who works for the UN was killed in an attack: (BBC) Waibhav Kale: UN says Israeli tank attack killed staff member in Gaza. (But that's okay, Israel's own ambassador to the UN considers it a terrorist entity. /s)
posted by cendawanita at 11:30 PM on May 15 [6 favorites]
This was apparently Palestinian security forces who had to dress in undercover due to the Israeli propensity to target them with lethal force. The other thing why they were at the facility was in order to escort UN staff to safety, again due to the Israeli propensity to target them with lethal force. Within this week, it was confirmed that an Indian national who works for the UN was killed in an attack: (BBC) Waibhav Kale: UN says Israeli tank attack killed staff member in Gaza. (But that's okay, Israel's own ambassador to the UN considers it a terrorist entity. /s)
posted by cendawanita at 11:30 PM on May 15 [6 favorites]
Considering the media diet, I'm surprised the roundup doesn't include this news too: (AP) Interior Dept staffer becomes first Jewish Biden appointee to publicly resign over war in Gaza (she also set up a twt acct to post her full letter)
In an interview with The Associated Press, Call pointed to comments by Biden, including at a White House Hanukkah event where he said “Were there no Israel, there wouldn’t be a Jew in the world who was safe” and at an event at Washington’s Holocaust Memorial last week in which he said the Oct. 7 Hamas-led attacks that triggered the war were driven by an “ancient desire to wipe out the Jewish people.”
“He is making Jews the face of the American war machine. And that is so deeply wrong,” she said, noting that ancestors of hers were killed by “state-sponsored violence.”
(From the letter: “Jewish safety cannot—and will not—come at the expense of Palestinian freedom… I reject the premise that one people’s salvation must come at another’s destruction.”)
Or: (AP) Biden administration is moving ahead on new $1 billion arms sale to Israel, congressional aides say (Truthout version)
AP: The new package disclosed Tuesday includes about $700 million for tank ammunition, $500 million in tactical vehicles and $60 million in mortar rounds, the congressional aides said. They spoke on condition of anonymity to discuss an arms transfer that has not yet been made public.
Rep. Greg Meeks of New York, the top Democrat on the House Foreign Affairs Committee, said Wednesday that the package notified to lawmakers this week was in the works for some time and does not use money from the national security spending package signed into law by Biden last month, which included roughly $26 billion in aid to Israel and humanitarian relief for people in Gaza.
Meeks said if allowed to go forward, the arms would be transferred in the next two to three years.
(Speaking of, Lara Friedman: Fascinating phenomenon in the House: there's real debate happening about Israel & its war on Gaza, with members speaking substantively, on the record -- but it's happening in the Rules Committee, a technical committee few people pay attention to.)
Or, this Isaac Chotiner interview with Senator Van Hollen (He's also bent Akbar Shahid Ahmed's ear earlier for HuffPost immediately following the Biden report)
HP: “I think what they’re trying to do is make clear that they recognize how bad the situation is but they don’t want to have to take any action,” Sen. Chris Van Hollen (D-Md.) told reporters on Friday evening. “The administration ducked all the hard questions.”
Van Hollen ― a Biden ally who spurred the administration to produce the assessment and who has led advocacy against the Gaza policy in Congress ― called the intelligence community’s finding “an understatement based on everything we know.”
He also highlighted the administration’s decision not to deem that Israel has breached the law in even one specific incident, noting that human rights groups and independent experts, including former State Department officials, have produced multiple investigations confirming violations.
“It’s not credible that the U.S. government has less information than organizations like Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch and Oxfam,” Van Hollen said.
He added that Congress “is going to want to look into specific cases” because the report appears “lacking” a serious probe of them.
New Yorker: [on aid] Well, this is part of my concern with the report. The Administration made broad statements about the lack of coöperation over a period of months, but then concluded that, at this moment, the Israeli government is coöperating sufficiently enough that they’re not in violation.
And you and I can debate whether at this particular moment the government of Israel is coöperating sufficiently to meet the standard laid out in N.S.M.-20, which is the international-law standard. But what is undeniable is that for months the Netanyahu government was in violation of international standards. And this report glosses over that. It does not say that those standards were violated at any time. And this is my real concern, because if the standard for delivery of humanitarian assistance during this period of months is in any way acceptable, God help us all. All the credible humanitarian organizations that have looked at this question have been loud and clear that it does not meet the standard of facilitating the delivery of humanitarian assistance in accordance with international law.
(...)IC: One of the things that’s pretty tragically ironic about the report coming out now is highlighted by what I read in a Times piece this morning, Sunday morning, which begins, “The flow of aid into Gaza has almost entirely dried up in the past week, according to the United Nations.” And it seems like the report placed all this emphasis on late April and early May, when aid went up a little bit. But now it seems like it’s really almost got worse than before, which, again, is both incredibly worrisome and also kind of shines a light on the sort of absurdity of focussing on this very narrow period of time.
VH: That’s exactly right. I mean, if you look at today, nothing’s getting through the Rafah crossing. There may be a trickle of aid getting through Kerem Shalom, but they’re unable to distribute it within Gaza because of the ongoing military operations around Rafah. And so the humanitarian situation is now getting worse, not better.
N.S.M.-20 does require this sort of continuous review. It says that, if at any time the Secretary of State determines that the assurances that were provided by the government of Israel are no longer credible, then the Secretary’s supposed to recommend a policy review to the President of the United States, and actions, up to and including terminating offensive assistance, could be taken. The report focusses on this short period of time, post-World Central Kitchen killings, and it doesn’t speak to the months and months before. It never says that at points in time international standards were clearly violated and that U.S. standards were clearly violated. One reason I suspect the report did that, at least with respect to U.S. laws, is that many of us believe that Section 620I of the Foreign Assistance Act has been violated. If the report acknowledges that there were violations in the preceding months, the Administration will be asked why it didn’t apply 620I.
Or some light entertainment: (HuffPost) House Democrats Fume Over Unprecedented Israeli Rebuke Of Lawmakers
One week after Israel’s ambassador to the U.S. sent dozens of Democrats in the House of Representatives an unprecedented rebuke, congressional staff say they’re still fuming over the letter, a note that accused lawmakers of aiding the Palestinian militant group Hamas, of misrepresenting Israeli policy and of inappropriately trying to influence President Joe Biden.
(...) They cast the move from the Israeli diplomat, Michael Herzog, as a sign of both Israel’s disregard for U.S. concerns about matters like humanitarian aid for Palestinians and its lack of respect for members of Congress, including many who are generally supportive of the U.S.-Israel alliance.
“It really is a stunning document,” said one Democratic staffer. “The tone of this letter is not reflective of the fact that the U.S. is the primary guarantor of Israel’s security. An unaware reader would assume that Israel is the superpower in this relationship and the U.S. the recipient of aid.”
Multiple parts of Herzog’s message were “verging on offensive,” argued another Democratic aide, pointing as an example to an assertion that Congress is overlooking the brutal Hamas-led attack on Israel on Oct. 7.
(...) “Never before have we received such a harsh letter from the Israeli government. But then again, never before have we been so critical of their actions,” the second aide said. A third aide to another legislator who signed the congressional letter highlighted both Herzog’s Oct. 7 claim and his suggestion that House Democrats were aiding Hamas as particularly disturbing.
And a fourth staffer, a senior foreign policy aide, told HuffPost that, in addition to sending Herzog’s letter, the Israeli embassy had reached out to multiple signatories of the May 3 statement for meetings or calls.
(...) The first House aide called the Israeli gambit “embarrassing.”
“It’s disrespectful but unsurprising from a government that has repeatedly made clear they do not care about the attitudes of the American public, or their representatives,” that aide added.
My idealism precludes coddling delusional belligerent occupation forces.
Anyway, people probably missed this one because this is just about Palestinians: (Jezebel) 25 Preterm Babies in a Rafah Hospital Face Immediate Risk of Dying Amid Israeli Incursion -
"If fuel does not enter immediately, the lights will turn off. Generators will stop running. Incubators will fail. Babies will die,” one doctor said.
posted by cendawanita at 12:07 AM on May 16 [10 favorites]
In an interview with The Associated Press, Call pointed to comments by Biden, including at a White House Hanukkah event where he said “Were there no Israel, there wouldn’t be a Jew in the world who was safe” and at an event at Washington’s Holocaust Memorial last week in which he said the Oct. 7 Hamas-led attacks that triggered the war were driven by an “ancient desire to wipe out the Jewish people.”
“He is making Jews the face of the American war machine. And that is so deeply wrong,” she said, noting that ancestors of hers were killed by “state-sponsored violence.”
(From the letter: “Jewish safety cannot—and will not—come at the expense of Palestinian freedom… I reject the premise that one people’s salvation must come at another’s destruction.”)
Or: (AP) Biden administration is moving ahead on new $1 billion arms sale to Israel, congressional aides say (Truthout version)
AP: The new package disclosed Tuesday includes about $700 million for tank ammunition, $500 million in tactical vehicles and $60 million in mortar rounds, the congressional aides said. They spoke on condition of anonymity to discuss an arms transfer that has not yet been made public.
Rep. Greg Meeks of New York, the top Democrat on the House Foreign Affairs Committee, said Wednesday that the package notified to lawmakers this week was in the works for some time and does not use money from the national security spending package signed into law by Biden last month, which included roughly $26 billion in aid to Israel and humanitarian relief for people in Gaza.
Meeks said if allowed to go forward, the arms would be transferred in the next two to three years.
(Speaking of, Lara Friedman: Fascinating phenomenon in the House: there's real debate happening about Israel & its war on Gaza, with members speaking substantively, on the record -- but it's happening in the Rules Committee, a technical committee few people pay attention to.)
Or, this Isaac Chotiner interview with Senator Van Hollen (He's also bent Akbar Shahid Ahmed's ear earlier for HuffPost immediately following the Biden report)
HP: “I think what they’re trying to do is make clear that they recognize how bad the situation is but they don’t want to have to take any action,” Sen. Chris Van Hollen (D-Md.) told reporters on Friday evening. “The administration ducked all the hard questions.”
Van Hollen ― a Biden ally who spurred the administration to produce the assessment and who has led advocacy against the Gaza policy in Congress ― called the intelligence community’s finding “an understatement based on everything we know.”
He also highlighted the administration’s decision not to deem that Israel has breached the law in even one specific incident, noting that human rights groups and independent experts, including former State Department officials, have produced multiple investigations confirming violations.
“It’s not credible that the U.S. government has less information than organizations like Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch and Oxfam,” Van Hollen said.
He added that Congress “is going to want to look into specific cases” because the report appears “lacking” a serious probe of them.
New Yorker: [on aid] Well, this is part of my concern with the report. The Administration made broad statements about the lack of coöperation over a period of months, but then concluded that, at this moment, the Israeli government is coöperating sufficiently enough that they’re not in violation.
And you and I can debate whether at this particular moment the government of Israel is coöperating sufficiently to meet the standard laid out in N.S.M.-20, which is the international-law standard. But what is undeniable is that for months the Netanyahu government was in violation of international standards. And this report glosses over that. It does not say that those standards were violated at any time. And this is my real concern, because if the standard for delivery of humanitarian assistance during this period of months is in any way acceptable, God help us all. All the credible humanitarian organizations that have looked at this question have been loud and clear that it does not meet the standard of facilitating the delivery of humanitarian assistance in accordance with international law.
(...)IC: One of the things that’s pretty tragically ironic about the report coming out now is highlighted by what I read in a Times piece this morning, Sunday morning, which begins, “The flow of aid into Gaza has almost entirely dried up in the past week, according to the United Nations.” And it seems like the report placed all this emphasis on late April and early May, when aid went up a little bit. But now it seems like it’s really almost got worse than before, which, again, is both incredibly worrisome and also kind of shines a light on the sort of absurdity of focussing on this very narrow period of time.
VH: That’s exactly right. I mean, if you look at today, nothing’s getting through the Rafah crossing. There may be a trickle of aid getting through Kerem Shalom, but they’re unable to distribute it within Gaza because of the ongoing military operations around Rafah. And so the humanitarian situation is now getting worse, not better.
N.S.M.-20 does require this sort of continuous review. It says that, if at any time the Secretary of State determines that the assurances that were provided by the government of Israel are no longer credible, then the Secretary’s supposed to recommend a policy review to the President of the United States, and actions, up to and including terminating offensive assistance, could be taken. The report focusses on this short period of time, post-World Central Kitchen killings, and it doesn’t speak to the months and months before. It never says that at points in time international standards were clearly violated and that U.S. standards were clearly violated. One reason I suspect the report did that, at least with respect to U.S. laws, is that many of us believe that Section 620I of the Foreign Assistance Act has been violated. If the report acknowledges that there were violations in the preceding months, the Administration will be asked why it didn’t apply 620I.
Or some light entertainment: (HuffPost) House Democrats Fume Over Unprecedented Israeli Rebuke Of Lawmakers
One week after Israel’s ambassador to the U.S. sent dozens of Democrats in the House of Representatives an unprecedented rebuke, congressional staff say they’re still fuming over the letter, a note that accused lawmakers of aiding the Palestinian militant group Hamas, of misrepresenting Israeli policy and of inappropriately trying to influence President Joe Biden.
(...) They cast the move from the Israeli diplomat, Michael Herzog, as a sign of both Israel’s disregard for U.S. concerns about matters like humanitarian aid for Palestinians and its lack of respect for members of Congress, including many who are generally supportive of the U.S.-Israel alliance.
“It really is a stunning document,” said one Democratic staffer. “The tone of this letter is not reflective of the fact that the U.S. is the primary guarantor of Israel’s security. An unaware reader would assume that Israel is the superpower in this relationship and the U.S. the recipient of aid.”
Multiple parts of Herzog’s message were “verging on offensive,” argued another Democratic aide, pointing as an example to an assertion that Congress is overlooking the brutal Hamas-led attack on Israel on Oct. 7.
(...) “Never before have we received such a harsh letter from the Israeli government. But then again, never before have we been so critical of their actions,” the second aide said. A third aide to another legislator who signed the congressional letter highlighted both Herzog’s Oct. 7 claim and his suggestion that House Democrats were aiding Hamas as particularly disturbing.
And a fourth staffer, a senior foreign policy aide, told HuffPost that, in addition to sending Herzog’s letter, the Israeli embassy had reached out to multiple signatories of the May 3 statement for meetings or calls.
(...) The first House aide called the Israeli gambit “embarrassing.”
“It’s disrespectful but unsurprising from a government that has repeatedly made clear they do not care about the attitudes of the American public, or their representatives,” that aide added.
My idealism precludes coddling delusional belligerent occupation forces.
Anyway, people probably missed this one because this is just about Palestinians: (Jezebel) 25 Preterm Babies in a Rafah Hospital Face Immediate Risk of Dying Amid Israeli Incursion -
"If fuel does not enter immediately, the lights will turn off. Generators will stop running. Incubators will fail. Babies will die,” one doctor said.
posted by cendawanita at 12:07 AM on May 16 [10 favorites]
The total count has not been adjusted downward; they simply added a new count of identified bodies (which is necessarily a subset of total bodies). This has been debunked repeatedly. Marc Owen Jones has a great thread about it on Twitter, but even the right-wing zombie corpse of Newsweek has a fact-check on it (they correctly note it as "false").
to add to adrienneleigh's point, here's Reuters making the same clarification: "In May the ministry updated its breakdown of the fatalities to be based only on the 24,686 bodies it said had been fully identified, and not on the more-than 10,000 bodies it said have not yet been identified."
- and Al-Jazeera,
- and CNN,
- and NBC is explicit that "some Israeli officials incorrectly suggested that the data showed a significant drop in death toll numbers",
and the Guardian.
can we not have claims about highly charged matters of fact substantiated only by the assertion that we "came across" something, without even a link? the comment in question is careful to assert that "the israelis" have claimed something, rather than actually claiming that thing, but it then goes on to accept that as confirmation about figures being "padded", when it is in fact no such thing.
posted by busted_crayons at 12:33 AM on May 16 [14 favorites]
to add to adrienneleigh's point, here's Reuters making the same clarification: "In May the ministry updated its breakdown of the fatalities to be based only on the 24,686 bodies it said had been fully identified, and not on the more-than 10,000 bodies it said have not yet been identified."
- and Al-Jazeera,
- and CNN,
- and NBC is explicit that "some Israeli officials incorrectly suggested that the data showed a significant drop in death toll numbers",
and the Guardian.
can we not have claims about highly charged matters of fact substantiated only by the assertion that we "came across" something, without even a link? the comment in question is careful to assert that "the israelis" have claimed something, rather than actually claiming that thing, but it then goes on to accept that as confirmation about figures being "padded", when it is in fact no such thing.
posted by busted_crayons at 12:33 AM on May 16 [14 favorites]
Mind you I just woke up and I already gtg, but: Gallant is demanding that Netanyahu make an unequivocal statement that Gaza will be turned over to Palestinian control at the conclusion of the war. - missed this bit -
Per KAN (in Hebrew)
Meanwhile, the government is discussing "the collapse of the Palestinian Authority" today. The right-wing ministers demanded measures against the PA, which promotes a unilateral decision to recognize a Palestinian state. Minister Smotrich claimed that the time had come for the financial collapse of the Authority, and Netanyahu also attacked the Authority harshly and instructed the Minister of Justice to draw up a package of sanctions within 24 hours as a response against it.
Quotes from the government debate:
Minister Levin: "We need to treat the PA's measures against Israel the same way we treat terrorism. As they charge a price for terrorism - that's how a price should be charged"
Minister Smotrich: "The PA's damage exceeds its benefit. It's time for the State of Israel to bring about its collapse"
Prime Minister Yossi Fox: "Some of the PA's senior officials even issued messages of support and legitimacy for the massacre"
Smotrich to Netanyahu: "Announce that the State of Israel will establish a new settlement in Judea and Samaria as a response to any country that unilaterally declares recognition of a Palestinian state"
Netanyahu: "80% of the public educated in the Palestinian Authority supports the massacre. We will not reward it and we will not allow it to happen. I am appointing Yariv Levin to formulate with the government ministries recommendations for harming the Palestinian Authority by tomorrow
Or as summarised and translated properly by Ihab Hassan: Breaking: Israeli Channel 11 revealed that Netanyahu held meetings with ministers and decided that the Palestinian Authority must be eliminated.
Hebrew media quoted Israeli Finance Minister Smotrich:
"It is time for the Palestinian Authority to collapse financially and go bankrupt."
Ben Gvir:
"Smotrich is right - the Palestinian Authority supports terror and does not deserve a single shekel."
But cross referencing BBC, I can see why perhaps. Western media carrying water in order to minimise belligerent occupation forces who are their allies.
posted by cendawanita at 12:49 AM on May 16 [5 favorites]
Per KAN (in Hebrew)
Meanwhile, the government is discussing "the collapse of the Palestinian Authority" today. The right-wing ministers demanded measures against the PA, which promotes a unilateral decision to recognize a Palestinian state. Minister Smotrich claimed that the time had come for the financial collapse of the Authority, and Netanyahu also attacked the Authority harshly and instructed the Minister of Justice to draw up a package of sanctions within 24 hours as a response against it.
Quotes from the government debate:
Minister Levin: "We need to treat the PA's measures against Israel the same way we treat terrorism. As they charge a price for terrorism - that's how a price should be charged"
Minister Smotrich: "The PA's damage exceeds its benefit. It's time for the State of Israel to bring about its collapse"
Prime Minister Yossi Fox: "Some of the PA's senior officials even issued messages of support and legitimacy for the massacre"
Smotrich to Netanyahu: "Announce that the State of Israel will establish a new settlement in Judea and Samaria as a response to any country that unilaterally declares recognition of a Palestinian state"
Netanyahu: "80% of the public educated in the Palestinian Authority supports the massacre. We will not reward it and we will not allow it to happen. I am appointing Yariv Levin to formulate with the government ministries recommendations for harming the Palestinian Authority by tomorrow
Or as summarised and translated properly by Ihab Hassan: Breaking: Israeli Channel 11 revealed that Netanyahu held meetings with ministers and decided that the Palestinian Authority must be eliminated.
Hebrew media quoted Israeli Finance Minister Smotrich:
"It is time for the Palestinian Authority to collapse financially and go bankrupt."
Ben Gvir:
"Smotrich is right - the Palestinian Authority supports terror and does not deserve a single shekel."
But cross referencing BBC, I can see why perhaps. Western media carrying water in order to minimise belligerent occupation forces who are their allies.
posted by cendawanita at 12:49 AM on May 16 [5 favorites]
to add to adrienneleigh's point, here's Reuters making the same clarification:
I watched it all happen more or less in real time yesterday while browsing news sites on and off. It basically went:
Confusing UN press release → confident articles stating that death estimates were reduced → confused articles reporting that there was confusion about what was going on → clarification from UN → articles correcting earlier articles and correctly reporting what the UN was saying.
All that happened in a few hours, and it's a pity if someone only glanced at an early piece and never saw a follow up, because some of the early reporting was majorly wrong.
posted by Dip Flash at 6:32 AM on May 16
I watched it all happen more or less in real time yesterday while browsing news sites on and off. It basically went:
Confusing UN press release → confident articles stating that death estimates were reduced → confused articles reporting that there was confusion about what was going on → clarification from UN → articles correcting earlier articles and correctly reporting what the UN was saying.
All that happened in a few hours, and it's a pity if someone only glanced at an early piece and never saw a follow up, because some of the early reporting was majorly wrong.
posted by Dip Flash at 6:32 AM on May 16
I think it would be a pity if someone did it by accident. If it's part of a blatant, ongoing pattern of misquotes, minimization, and denial in support of the Israeli government's actions, I'd say it's something else.
posted by sagc at 6:43 AM on May 16 [13 favorites]
posted by sagc at 6:43 AM on May 16 [13 favorites]
I don’t even understand how it is that nitpicking the meaning of death count reporting from organizations trying to work with half the buildings destroyed and at risk of being attacked at any moment is even a story. It seems obvious that there’s no way their numbers could be accurate at this point and almost certainly a huge undercount (it’s not like there are hundreds of workers out everyday clearing rubble to find bodies or able to ask families if anyone has died of starvation which is what you need to get an accurate count). It just seems like a form of manufacturing consent to report on the “controversy” of interpretation and not the ongoing violence and thus likelihood of data being incomplete.
posted by R343L at 8:06 AM on May 16 [8 favorites]
posted by R343L at 8:06 AM on May 16 [8 favorites]
Reknowned historian Ilan Pappe, 70 years old, posted on his FB that he was stopped and questioned for two hours at Detroit airport last Monday.
This is a new level of US insanity and paranoia.
posted by adamvasco at 9:05 AM on May 16 [11 favorites]
This is a new level of US insanity and paranoia.
posted by adamvasco at 9:05 AM on May 16 [11 favorites]
NYT: I Was Shot in Vermont. What if It Had Been in the West Bank? (archive)
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 10:31 AM on May 16 [2 favorites]
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 10:31 AM on May 16 [2 favorites]
I was reporting on what the Israeli media was saying. As I pointed out even if the revised numbers are correct it is still horrible. I do apologize for missing the subsequent updates from the UN on Tuesday.
Tracing the story we can see it originating in a report in the Jerusalem Post last week. They were noting an update to a dataset published by the UN OHCA. Making its way to many outlets including
Fox News by Monday. With a number of media outlets not catching up until yesterday.
Estimates of the number of women and children killed is seen an important number because the ratio is seen as a proxy for the ratio of civilian to combatant deaths as the majority of combatants are adult males, although obviously women and children can be combatants, men may be non-combatants. Also it is pretty horrible anytime people are looking at a mass casualty situation and attempting to diminish it by saying well x% were actually bad guys so they don’t count.
posted by interogative mood at 11:41 AM on May 16
Tracing the story we can see it originating in a report in the Jerusalem Post last week. They were noting an update to a dataset published by the UN OHCA. Making its way to many outlets including
Fox News by Monday. With a number of media outlets not catching up until yesterday.
Estimates of the number of women and children killed is seen an important number because the ratio is seen as a proxy for the ratio of civilian to combatant deaths as the majority of combatants are adult males, although obviously women and children can be combatants, men may be non-combatants. Also it is pretty horrible anytime people are looking at a mass casualty situation and attempting to diminish it by saying well x% were actually bad guys so they don’t count.
posted by interogative mood at 11:41 AM on May 16
although obviously women and children can be combatants
Genuinely, what proportion of the murdered children in Gaza do you think might have been "combatants"?
posted by chaiminda at 12:06 PM on May 16 [16 favorites]
Genuinely, what proportion of the murdered children in Gaza do you think might have been "combatants"?
posted by chaiminda at 12:06 PM on May 16 [16 favorites]
fwiw interrogative_mood I wasn’t criticizing your seeing earlier reporting and relaying it here so much as the way the NBC link framed the story. It barely touches on the reality that given the circumstances in Gaza it’s unrealistic to expect reliable numbers but also quite reasonable to believe that any current numbers are undercounts and the reporting should reflect that IMO.
posted by R343L at 12:35 PM on May 16 [2 favorites]
posted by R343L at 12:35 PM on May 16 [2 favorites]
I was reporting on what the Israeli media was saying.
...which you explicitly claimed "seemed to confirm" that figures had been padded, i.e. you not only reported what was said, but also implied that what they were saying was evidence of something for which it was not actually evidence, i.e. you were not simply neutrally reporting that something had been claimed, but implying something about it's truth. it's right there in your comment.
posted by busted_crayons at 1:07 PM on May 16 [6 favorites]
...which you explicitly claimed "seemed to confirm" that figures had been padded, i.e. you not only reported what was said, but also implied that what they were saying was evidence of something for which it was not actually evidence, i.e. you were not simply neutrally reporting that something had been claimed, but implying something about it's truth. it's right there in your comment.
posted by busted_crayons at 1:07 PM on May 16 [6 favorites]
CNN: Egypt warns Israel of ‘dire repercussions’ over Rafah operation in Gaza
----
Catching up with the big news (for me) today --
Al-Jazeera : South Africa urges ICJ to order Gaza ceasefire, halt Israel’s Rafah assault
AP livestream || verbatim record (PDF)
posted by cendawanita at 1:39 PM on May 16 [2 favorites]
----
Catching up with the big news (for me) today --
Al-Jazeera : South Africa urges ICJ to order Gaza ceasefire, halt Israel’s Rafah assault
AP livestream || verbatim record (PDF)
posted by cendawanita at 1:39 PM on May 16 [2 favorites]
If Israel won't listen to the US about Rafah why would they listen to the ICJ? I suppose it's about sending a message.
posted by Justinian at 1:51 PM on May 16
posted by Justinian at 1:51 PM on May 16
There's that cynicism that really moves mountains.
posted by cendawanita at 1:52 PM on May 16 [6 favorites]
posted by cendawanita at 1:52 PM on May 16 [6 favorites]
That's fine - international law doesn't matter. Hope we all maintain the same energy with Russia. (But I thought International Relations realists are dorks. Then again Mearsheimer has been speaking out against the Israel lobby so I suppose from a certain point of view, he's 0 for 2.)
posted by cendawanita at 1:56 PM on May 16 [6 favorites]
posted by cendawanita at 1:56 PM on May 16 [6 favorites]
The Hill: House passes GOP bill to undo Biden’s weapons freeze to Israel
The bill — which cleared the chamber in a 224-187 vote — is expected to go nowhere in the Democratic-controlled Senate, where party leaders are vowing not to consider it at all. Still, the proposal acted to unite House Republicans — who have been fiercely divided over other issues, like government funding and aid to Ukraine — while splintering a handful of pro-Israel Democrats away from Biden and other party leaders, who had urged their troops to rally behind the president by opposing the measure.
Related, earlier: (Guardian) Anti-Defamation League ramps up lobbying to promote controversial definition of antisemitism -
Federal records show a dramatic spending increase that critics say is primarily intended to punish criticism of Israel and target pro-Palestinian groups
The spending positions the ADL as the largest pro-Israel lobbying force on domestic issues. Records show the surge’s broader aim is to promoting a controversial definition of antisemitism across a range of federal agencies and mobilizing the government to enforce it.
The 16-fold spending increase is “breathtaking” and currently unmatched on Capitol Hill, said Craig Holman, who monitors lobbying issues with Public Citizen, a government watchdog non-profit that does not take positions on the Israel-Palestine debate. It comes amid a “fundamental shift in public opinion about Israel”, Holman said, pointing to nationwide anti-war demonstrations on college campuses.
posted by cendawanita at 4:35 PM on May 16 [5 favorites]
The bill — which cleared the chamber in a 224-187 vote — is expected to go nowhere in the Democratic-controlled Senate, where party leaders are vowing not to consider it at all. Still, the proposal acted to unite House Republicans — who have been fiercely divided over other issues, like government funding and aid to Ukraine — while splintering a handful of pro-Israel Democrats away from Biden and other party leaders, who had urged their troops to rally behind the president by opposing the measure.
Related, earlier: (Guardian) Anti-Defamation League ramps up lobbying to promote controversial definition of antisemitism -
Federal records show a dramatic spending increase that critics say is primarily intended to punish criticism of Israel and target pro-Palestinian groups
The spending positions the ADL as the largest pro-Israel lobbying force on domestic issues. Records show the surge’s broader aim is to promoting a controversial definition of antisemitism across a range of federal agencies and mobilizing the government to enforce it.
The 16-fold spending increase is “breathtaking” and currently unmatched on Capitol Hill, said Craig Holman, who monitors lobbying issues with Public Citizen, a government watchdog non-profit that does not take positions on the Israel-Palestine debate. It comes amid a “fundamental shift in public opinion about Israel”, Holman said, pointing to nationwide anti-war demonstrations on college campuses.
posted by cendawanita at 4:35 PM on May 16 [5 favorites]
It sounds breathtaking, but it amounts to a $1.6 million lobbying budget up from $100,000. That isn’t breathtaking. The Pharmaceutical industry spent $382.59 million last year, up from $318 million in 2020.
posted by interogative mood at 6:26 PM on May 16
posted by interogative mood at 6:26 PM on May 16
that's a ludicrous comparison that exemplifies why so many people think you are carrying water for a genocidal state
posted by sagc at 8:15 PM on May 16 [10 favorites]
posted by sagc at 8:15 PM on May 16 [10 favorites]
Like, you're comparing a 1/6 increase to a 16x increase. And saying they're the same. That's not numerically sensible.
posted by sagc at 8:19 PM on May 16 [6 favorites]
posted by sagc at 8:19 PM on May 16 [6 favorites]
Anyone who thinks that $63 million is less than $1.5 million needs to get their head examined. The ADL has expanded its lobbying budget but they are focused on a number of bills, not just the one described in the Guardian article. Among bills it is currently lobbying for, you can see it goes beyond just pro-Israel legislation to bills related to AI model transparency, anti-doxing, the HEAL act — aiming to protect migrant women who have been subject to trafficking, etc.
Meanwhile AIPACC which is a single issue organization has an annual lobbying budget of $5 million and more significantly a PAC where they expect to spend $100 million just in advertising in primary elections.
posted by interogative mood at 10:34 PM on May 16
Meanwhile AIPACC which is a single issue organization has an annual lobbying budget of $5 million and more significantly a PAC where they expect to spend $100 million just in advertising in primary elections.
posted by interogative mood at 10:34 PM on May 16
I thought we were discussing degree of increase, not absolute scale. But yes, I will admit that the pharmaceutical lobby has a lot of money.
what the balls it has to do with a 16x increase in pro-Israel lobbyist funding, I have no idea.
posted by sagc at 10:46 PM on May 16 [5 favorites]
what the balls it has to do with a 16x increase in pro-Israel lobbyist funding, I have no idea.
posted by sagc at 10:46 PM on May 16 [5 favorites]
The ADL boosting an "anti-doxing" bill is some hilarious irony, given that Israel-linked groups are some of the worst offenders as far as doxing innocent people (many of them college students).
Also, based on your own link, many of the bills supported by their lobbying are, in fact, explicitly bills that will criminalize protest activity and/or otherwise make life worse for anyone who isn't unequivocally pro-Israel. You're doing the thing where you pretend to be transparent but actually obfuscate again! I mean, come the fuck on:
Also, based on your own link, many of the bills supported by their lobbying are, in fact, explicitly bills that will criminalize protest activity and/or otherwise make life worse for anyone who isn't unequivocally pro-Israel. You're doing the thing where you pretend to be transparent but actually obfuscate again! I mean, come the fuck on:
- To amend the Internal Revenue Code of 1986 to terminate the tax-exempt status of terrorist supporting organizations.
- STOP HATE Act of 2023
- Protecting Students on Campus Act of 2024
- Antisemitism Awareness Act of 2023
- Protecting Americans from Foreign Adversary Controlled Applications Act (this is one of the Tiktok-ban bills)
- Antisemitism Awareness Act of 2023 (this is the one that adopts the IHRA's definition of antisemitism)
Also, love how the ADL are protecting migrant women... By honouring Jared Kushner? It isn't an organization that has covered itself in glory lately.
posted by sagc at 10:50 PM on May 16 [6 favorites]
posted by sagc at 10:50 PM on May 16 [6 favorites]
Minimise the amount being spent on lobbying policymakers to avoid contextualizing the strategy these resources and energy are being spent so we don't have to talk about the other news where your policymakers are so in the tank for a foreign power they would compromise on your government's discretion to set its own foreign policy.
Maybe karmically all the prayers across the decades from people elsewhere who suffered the same are being answered. Slow-moving into being a carcéral puppet state in a way that Hollywood action movies didn't prepare us for.
Most of us in the global south has long made the compromise but the bedtime story we tell ourselves is, well at least they're not as bad as the other guy, even as ethnic cleansing, genocide, regime change, and other war crimes are happening elsewhere by the same guy.
Hey, welcome to the club.
posted by cendawanita at 12:22 AM on May 17 [6 favorites]
Maybe karmically all the prayers across the decades from people elsewhere who suffered the same are being answered. Slow-moving into being a carcéral puppet state in a way that Hollywood action movies didn't prepare us for.
Most of us in the global south has long made the compromise but the bedtime story we tell ourselves is, well at least they're not as bad as the other guy, even as ethnic cleansing, genocide, regime change, and other war crimes are happening elsewhere by the same guy.
Hey, welcome to the club.
posted by cendawanita at 12:22 AM on May 17 [6 favorites]
(Slow-moving into being a carcéral puppet state in a way that Hollywood action movies didn't prepare us
(Since of course, it's not Russia)
posted by cendawanita at 12:26 AM on May 17 [1 favorite]
(Since of course, it's not Russia)
posted by cendawanita at 12:26 AM on May 17 [1 favorite]
U.S. military begins Gaza aid deliveries from floating pier.
It sounds like the first delivery is off the pier and on trucks moving into Gaza, though the scale is of course not nearly sufficient yet.
posted by Justinian at 1:39 AM on May 17 [1 favorite]
It sounds like the first delivery is off the pier and on trucks moving into Gaza, though the scale is of course not nearly sufficient yet.
posted by Justinian at 1:39 AM on May 17 [1 favorite]
The floating pier is literally 0.5km from one of Israel's main temporary bases in Gaza, and the plan is apparently for aid from the pier to be delivered to the IDF and then distributed by them. So … how do you think that will actually work out in practice? Because my guess, and the guess of basically every humanitarian organization with experience on the ground, is "it will not work at all".
posted by adrienneleigh at 7:05 AM on May 17 [8 favorites]
posted by adrienneleigh at 7:05 AM on May 17 [8 favorites]
The US government is "sending aid" while simultaneously arming the Israeli assault that is the reason Gazans need aid? Give me a break.
posted by happyfrog at 2:51 PM on May 17 [5 favorites]
posted by happyfrog at 2:51 PM on May 17 [5 favorites]
Lol. LMAO even.
Guardian: Supplies arrive in Gaza via new pier but land routes essential, says US aid chief -
Samantha Power says barely 100 trucks of aid a day enter Gaza, far less than 600 needed to address threat of famine (the older headline that's still reflected in auto fetch: "aid arriving in Gaza via US-made pier but distribution blocked, says US aid chief")
The Associated Press, however, quoted an unnamed UN official as saying distribution of the shipment had not begun as of Friday afternoon.
Of all the things us "third worlders" had to share, I didn't realise it included being bullied by another country.
posted by cendawanita at 3:14 PM on May 17 [6 favorites]
Guardian: Supplies arrive in Gaza via new pier but land routes essential, says US aid chief -
Samantha Power says barely 100 trucks of aid a day enter Gaza, far less than 600 needed to address threat of famine (the older headline that's still reflected in auto fetch: "aid arriving in Gaza via US-made pier but distribution blocked, says US aid chief")
The Associated Press, however, quoted an unnamed UN official as saying distribution of the shipment had not begun as of Friday afternoon.
Of all the things us "third worlders" had to share, I didn't realise it included being bullied by another country.
posted by cendawanita at 3:14 PM on May 17 [6 favorites]
Found the AP article:
The Pentagon said no backups were expected in the distribution process. The U.S. plan is for the United Nations, through the World Food Program, to take charge of the aid once it leaves the pier. This will involve coordinating the arrival of empty trucks and their registration, overseeing the transfer of goods coming through the floating dock to the trucks and their dispatch to warehouses across Gaza, and, finally, handing over the supplies to aid groups for delivery.
The U.K. said some of its aid for Gaza was in the first shipment that went ashore, including the first of 8,400 kits to provide temporary shelter made of plastic sheeting. And it said more aid, including 2,000 additional shelter kits, 900 tents, five forklift trucks and 9,200 hygiene kits, will follow in the coming weeks.
“This is the culmination of a Herculean joint international effort,” said Prime Minister Rishi Sunak. “We know the maritime route is not the only answer. We need to see more land routes open, including via the Rafah crossing, to ensure much more aid gets safely to civilians in desperate need of help.”
Aid distribution had not yet begun as of Friday afternoon, said a U.N. official who spoke on the condition of anonymity because of the sensitivity of the matter. The official said the process of unloading and reloading cargo was still ongoing.
(...) Anastasia Moran, an associate director of the International Rescue Committee, argues that the pier is in fact diverting attention from the surging humanitarian crisis.
Over the past couple of months, “the maritime route has been taking time and energy and resources at a time when aid has not been scaled up,” she said. “And now that the maritime route is up and running, the land crossings have been effectively shut down.”
During the nine-day period between May 6, when Israel began the Rafah offensive, and May 15, a total of 154 trucks carrying food and 156 carrying flour have entered Gaza through three land crossings, U.N. deputy spokesperson Farhan Haq said Friday. Haq also warned this week that almost no fuel is getting through.
(...)U.S. President Joe Biden ordered the pier project, expected to cost $320 million. The boatloads of aid will be deposited at a port facility built by the Israelis just southwest of Gaza City. The U.S. has closely coordinated with Israel on how to protect the ships and personnel working on the beach.
Concern about the safety of aid workers was highlighted last month when an Israeli strike killed seven relief workers from World Central Kitchen whose trip had been coordinated with Israeli officials. The group had also brought aid in by sea.
Pentagon officials have made it clear that security conditions will be monitored closely and could prompt a shutdown of the maritime route, even if just temporarily. Already, the site has been targeted by mortar fire during its construction, and Hamas has threatened to target any foreign forces who “occupy” the Gaza Strip.
Israeli forces are in charge of security on shore, but there are also two U.S. Navy warships nearby that can protect U.S. troops and others.
Others like... The health workers who Senator Tammy Duckworth is trying to save? (Never mind the Palestinians)
Per Ryan Grim: Just want to underscore the level of heroism underway here: Sen. Tammy Duckworth has been working to evacuate Dr. Adam Hamawy (who saved her life after her helicopter crash) from the hospital the IDF is besieging and bombing. But he and his colleagues have insisted they not leave unless the IDF allows in a new rotation, otherwise the patients will all die and the IDF will overrun the hospital and leave it in ruins as they have done to every other hospital in Gaza.
Five staff were evacuated today but Hamawy refused to go, leaving his body on the line to defend and to treat his patients. He is effectively saying, if they are going to kill everyone in the hospital, they'll have to kill him too.
posted by cendawanita at 3:22 PM on May 17 [9 favorites]
The Pentagon said no backups were expected in the distribution process. The U.S. plan is for the United Nations, through the World Food Program, to take charge of the aid once it leaves the pier. This will involve coordinating the arrival of empty trucks and their registration, overseeing the transfer of goods coming through the floating dock to the trucks and their dispatch to warehouses across Gaza, and, finally, handing over the supplies to aid groups for delivery.
The U.K. said some of its aid for Gaza was in the first shipment that went ashore, including the first of 8,400 kits to provide temporary shelter made of plastic sheeting. And it said more aid, including 2,000 additional shelter kits, 900 tents, five forklift trucks and 9,200 hygiene kits, will follow in the coming weeks.
“This is the culmination of a Herculean joint international effort,” said Prime Minister Rishi Sunak. “We know the maritime route is not the only answer. We need to see more land routes open, including via the Rafah crossing, to ensure much more aid gets safely to civilians in desperate need of help.”
Aid distribution had not yet begun as of Friday afternoon, said a U.N. official who spoke on the condition of anonymity because of the sensitivity of the matter. The official said the process of unloading and reloading cargo was still ongoing.
(...) Anastasia Moran, an associate director of the International Rescue Committee, argues that the pier is in fact diverting attention from the surging humanitarian crisis.
Over the past couple of months, “the maritime route has been taking time and energy and resources at a time when aid has not been scaled up,” she said. “And now that the maritime route is up and running, the land crossings have been effectively shut down.”
During the nine-day period between May 6, when Israel began the Rafah offensive, and May 15, a total of 154 trucks carrying food and 156 carrying flour have entered Gaza through three land crossings, U.N. deputy spokesperson Farhan Haq said Friday. Haq also warned this week that almost no fuel is getting through.
(...)U.S. President Joe Biden ordered the pier project, expected to cost $320 million. The boatloads of aid will be deposited at a port facility built by the Israelis just southwest of Gaza City. The U.S. has closely coordinated with Israel on how to protect the ships and personnel working on the beach.
Concern about the safety of aid workers was highlighted last month when an Israeli strike killed seven relief workers from World Central Kitchen whose trip had been coordinated with Israeli officials. The group had also brought aid in by sea.
Pentagon officials have made it clear that security conditions will be monitored closely and could prompt a shutdown of the maritime route, even if just temporarily. Already, the site has been targeted by mortar fire during its construction, and Hamas has threatened to target any foreign forces who “occupy” the Gaza Strip.
Israeli forces are in charge of security on shore, but there are also two U.S. Navy warships nearby that can protect U.S. troops and others.
Others like... The health workers who Senator Tammy Duckworth is trying to save? (Never mind the Palestinians)
Per Ryan Grim: Just want to underscore the level of heroism underway here: Sen. Tammy Duckworth has been working to evacuate Dr. Adam Hamawy (who saved her life after her helicopter crash) from the hospital the IDF is besieging and bombing. But he and his colleagues have insisted they not leave unless the IDF allows in a new rotation, otherwise the patients will all die and the IDF will overrun the hospital and leave it in ruins as they have done to every other hospital in Gaza.
Five staff were evacuated today but Hamawy refused to go, leaving his body on the line to defend and to treat his patients. He is effectively saying, if they are going to kill everyone in the hospital, they'll have to kill him too.
posted by cendawanita at 3:22 PM on May 17 [9 favorites]
I just am still flabbergasted that “build a special pier” is a thing we actually did instead of insisting sufficient aid come in by existing ground entry points that are well connected to major shipping ports. It is just so absurd and it’s absurd that there’s going to be a news cycle about how the process is working and is it good enough when the entire idea is absurd and unnecessary if Israel (and Egypt) just stopped being awful.
posted by R343L at 3:58 PM on May 17 [11 favorites]
posted by R343L at 3:58 PM on May 17 [11 favorites]
R343L: Egypt is shitty in regard to many things related to Palestine and Palestinians, but afaik they're not really responsible for any of the recent issues with aid getting through. They dropped basically all restrictions on amount/type of aid allowed to pass through Rafah a few months back—the current restrictions are more or less entirely on Israel's side.
posted by adrienneleigh at 4:11 PM on May 17 [4 favorites]
posted by adrienneleigh at 4:11 PM on May 17 [4 favorites]
...oh, sorry, my bad, i wasn't thinking about this week. I believe there are new issues from Egypt's side now, since Israel took direct control of the Gaza side of the crossing. Can't say i really blame Egypt on that front, though? They have every reason to believe that Israel will just flat-out destroy any aid that comes through the crossing while they're in direct control of it.
posted by adrienneleigh at 4:13 PM on May 17 [4 favorites]
posted by adrienneleigh at 4:13 PM on May 17 [4 favorites]
Good job: IDF recovered three more bodies of Israeli hostages
Even gooder job: Israel's submission to the ICJ - South Africa had presented its case to the court on Thursday, saying Palestinians had nowhere safe to flee because intense bombing and ground campaigns had reduced the rest of Gaza to a famine-stricken wasteland without shelter or services.
Noam said the attack on Rafah was essential because battalions of Hamas fighters were hiding there. Israel has vowed to destroy the group after its cross-border attacks on 7 October, which killed about 1,200 people, mostly civilians, with 254 people taken hostage. Hamas leaders have said they want to repeat that attack.
“Israel is acutely aware of the large number of civilians that are concentrated in Rafah. It is also acutely aware of Hamas’ efforts to use these civilians as a shield,” he said. He added that Israel had ordered evacuations to protect civilians, and accused South Africa of exploiting civilian suffering to protect militants.
“South Africa … has a clear ulterior motive when it asks you to order Israel to stay away from Rafah and to withdraw all its troops from Gaza,” Noam told the court. “It does so in order to obtain military advantage for its ally, Hamas.”
Incredible job: (Haaretz) Israeli Army Appears to Be Using Gaza Hospital, School as Bases, Washington Post Reports - Satellite images show the construction of earth berms around the Turkish-Palestinian Friendship hospital in November and near the school in Juhor ad Dik in March. Last month, Haaretz published satellite images that show IDF troop concentrations along the Netzarim corridor, close by
But I was told this is pointless: (Reuters) Western nations urge Israel to comply with international law in Gaza
Israel must comply with international law in Gaza and address the devastating humanitarian crisis in the Palestinian enclave, a group of Western nations wrote in a letter to the Israeli government seen by Reuters on Friday.
All countries belonging to the Group of Seven (G7) major democracies, apart from the United States, signed the letter, along with Australia, South Korea, New Zealand, the Netherlands, Denmark, Sweden and Finland.
I thought I was seeing double of this story (Guardian: ‘Barbaric’: Palestinian lorry drivers recount settlers’ attack on Gaza aid convoy - Israeli soldiers escorting convoy accused of doing nothing to stop widely condemned incident), but no, it's happened again: (Haaretz) IDF: Soldiers who treated Israeli driver whose truck was torched by settlers later attacked by Israelis
WOWWWWW, you don't say: (NYT Magazine) The Unpunished: How Extremists Took Over Israel - After 50 years of failure to stop violence and terrorism against Palestinians by Jewish ultranationalists, lawlessness has become the law. (hopefully the gift link still works)
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The National UK: 'I lost my city': Gazan photographer Motaz Azaiza in tears at London event marking Nakba
posted by cendawanita at 4:41 PM on May 17 [6 favorites]
Even gooder job: Israel's submission to the ICJ - South Africa had presented its case to the court on Thursday, saying Palestinians had nowhere safe to flee because intense bombing and ground campaigns had reduced the rest of Gaza to a famine-stricken wasteland without shelter or services.
Noam said the attack on Rafah was essential because battalions of Hamas fighters were hiding there. Israel has vowed to destroy the group after its cross-border attacks on 7 October, which killed about 1,200 people, mostly civilians, with 254 people taken hostage. Hamas leaders have said they want to repeat that attack.
“Israel is acutely aware of the large number of civilians that are concentrated in Rafah. It is also acutely aware of Hamas’ efforts to use these civilians as a shield,” he said. He added that Israel had ordered evacuations to protect civilians, and accused South Africa of exploiting civilian suffering to protect militants.
“South Africa … has a clear ulterior motive when it asks you to order Israel to stay away from Rafah and to withdraw all its troops from Gaza,” Noam told the court. “It does so in order to obtain military advantage for its ally, Hamas.”
Incredible job: (Haaretz) Israeli Army Appears to Be Using Gaza Hospital, School as Bases, Washington Post Reports - Satellite images show the construction of earth berms around the Turkish-Palestinian Friendship hospital in November and near the school in Juhor ad Dik in March. Last month, Haaretz published satellite images that show IDF troop concentrations along the Netzarim corridor, close by
But I was told this is pointless: (Reuters) Western nations urge Israel to comply with international law in Gaza
Israel must comply with international law in Gaza and address the devastating humanitarian crisis in the Palestinian enclave, a group of Western nations wrote in a letter to the Israeli government seen by Reuters on Friday.
All countries belonging to the Group of Seven (G7) major democracies, apart from the United States, signed the letter, along with Australia, South Korea, New Zealand, the Netherlands, Denmark, Sweden and Finland.
I thought I was seeing double of this story (Guardian: ‘Barbaric’: Palestinian lorry drivers recount settlers’ attack on Gaza aid convoy - Israeli soldiers escorting convoy accused of doing nothing to stop widely condemned incident), but no, it's happened again: (Haaretz) IDF: Soldiers who treated Israeli driver whose truck was torched by settlers later attacked by Israelis
WOWWWWW, you don't say: (NYT Magazine) The Unpunished: How Extremists Took Over Israel - After 50 years of failure to stop violence and terrorism against Palestinians by Jewish ultranationalists, lawlessness has become the law. (hopefully the gift link still works)
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The National UK: 'I lost my city': Gazan photographer Motaz Azaiza in tears at London event marking Nakba
posted by cendawanita at 4:41 PM on May 17 [6 favorites]
Also, the Washington Post had a decent piece the other day about the pier, the so-called "Netzarim corridor", and the fact that both are clearly indicators that Israel plans a long-term military occupation of Gaza.
Israeli troops also appear to be using the Turkish-Palestinian Friendship Hospital, which once specialized in treatment for cancer patients, as a base of operations. The hospital shut down in the first week of November due to nearby airstrikes and lack of fuel, and thousands of cancer patients have been left without care. Sand berms appeared around the hospital in late November.posted by adrienneleigh at 4:42 PM on May 17 [3 favorites]
An Israeli soldier filmed himself tearing down large parts of the hospital with an earth mover in February. Images published online on May 8 by the Palestinian journalist Younis Tirawi and geolocated by The Post show Israeli soldiers using the hospital as a sniper position.
By March, Israeli forces had cleared hundreds of acres around the hospital — demolishing greenhouses and blowing up Israa University and the Palace of Justice, which housed Gaza’s high courts.
“Israel has not provided cogent reasons for such extensive destruction of civilian infrastructure,” Volker Türk, the U.N. high commissioner for human rights, said in February.
In all, the area cleared around the corridor and the pier encompasses at least four square miles, or a little more than 2,500 acres, according to the analysis by Ben-Nun from Hebrew University, though extensive damage to buildings and agricultural land extends farther.
“Everything is demolished along the way,” he said. “Completely demolished.”
interogative mood - since you're trying to "trace" the source of the reporting, it's probably better to just use the direct source: UN Spokesman Farhan Haq (video source on Twitter) - transcript as follows:
Q: The Director of UNICEF Catherine Russell indicated in mid-March, she was citing Hamas health ministry numbers, 13,000 children had died in Gaza. The UN released totals yesterday showing that less than 8,000 children have died in Gaza as a result of the war, citing the same Hamas health ministry. Can you clarify the process for how those numbers were revised?
A: Yeah, the revisions are taken… you know, as we, of course, in the fog of war, it’s difficult to come up with numbers. We get numbers from different sources on the ground, and then we try to crosscheck them. As we crosscheck them, we update the numbers, and we’ll continue to do that as that progresses.
Q: I mean, it’s almost half. It’s pretty significant.
A: Numbers get adjusted many times over the course of a conflict. Once a conflict is done, we’ll have the most accurate figures. But we’re just going with what we can absolutely confirm, which will always be the low end of what the numbers are.
Q: So can people consider those numbers reliable having been so off in this occasion?
A: Well, you can consider them reliable from the fact that we’re continually checking them. We’ll continue to do that over the course of the war. But the numbers, you know, ultimately have to be regularly checked so that we can be sure that what we’re putting out is valid.”
posted by xdvesper at 6:47 PM on May 17
Q: The Director of UNICEF Catherine Russell indicated in mid-March, she was citing Hamas health ministry numbers, 13,000 children had died in Gaza. The UN released totals yesterday showing that less than 8,000 children have died in Gaza as a result of the war, citing the same Hamas health ministry. Can you clarify the process for how those numbers were revised?
A: Yeah, the revisions are taken… you know, as we, of course, in the fog of war, it’s difficult to come up with numbers. We get numbers from different sources on the ground, and then we try to crosscheck them. As we crosscheck them, we update the numbers, and we’ll continue to do that as that progresses.
Q: I mean, it’s almost half. It’s pretty significant.
A: Numbers get adjusted many times over the course of a conflict. Once a conflict is done, we’ll have the most accurate figures. But we’re just going with what we can absolutely confirm, which will always be the low end of what the numbers are.
Q: So can people consider those numbers reliable having been so off in this occasion?
A: Well, you can consider them reliable from the fact that we’re continually checking them. We’ll continue to do that over the course of the war. But the numbers, you know, ultimately have to be regularly checked so that we can be sure that what we’re putting out is valid.”
posted by xdvesper at 6:47 PM on May 17
oh look, more apologism for a fake narrative. The total number has not been reduced. There is a separate number of "completely identified" bodies which is necessarily a subset of the total number!
posted by adrienneleigh at 7:23 PM on May 17 [6 favorites]
posted by adrienneleigh at 7:23 PM on May 17 [6 favorites]
CBC has whitewashed Israel’s crimes in Gaza. I saw it firsthand
(Breach Media)
(Breach Media)
Trying to work your way up to a permanent position at Canada’s public broadcaster requires knowing the sort of stories, angles and guests that are acceptable—and which are out of bounds. As a precarious “casual” employee—a class of worker that makes up over a quarter of CBC’s workforce—it hadn’t taken me long to realize that the subject of Israel-Palestine was to be avoided wherever possible. When it was covered, it was tacitly expected to be framed in such a way as to obscure history and sanitize contemporary reality.posted by adrienneleigh at 7:24 PM on May 17 [8 favorites]
After October 7, it was no longer possible for the corporation to continue avoiding it. But because CBC had never properly contextualized the world’s longest active military occupation in the lead-up to that atrocity, it was ill-equipped to report on what happened next.
The CBC would spend the following months whitewashing the horrors that Israel would visit on Palestinians in Gaza. In the days after Israel began its bombing campaign, this was already evident: while virtually no scrutiny was applied to Israeli officials and experts, an unprecedented level of suspicion was being brought to bear on the family members of those trapped in Gaza.
My job required me to vet the work of associate producers and to oversee interviews, so I was well-positioned to see the double standards up close.
Al Jazeera's Live Updates pages have been a fantastic source of news & updates. Here's today's:
Israel’s war on Gaza updates: Tanks, jets ‘wipe out everything’ in Jabalia
posted by adrienneleigh at 8:14 PM on May 17 [4 favorites]
Israel’s war on Gaza updates: Tanks, jets ‘wipe out everything’ in Jabalia
posted by adrienneleigh at 8:14 PM on May 17 [4 favorites]
Also, i think this article is too forgiving of "non-extremist" Israeli society, given that it's been based in settler-colonialism and terrorism since its founding, but it's still pretty good. The Unpunished: How Extremists Took Over Israel (NYTimes; archived)
posted by adrienneleigh at 10:05 PM on May 17 [7 favorites]
posted by adrienneleigh at 10:05 PM on May 17 [7 favorites]
I think the corridor and breaking Gaza into cantons is the backup plan for Netanyahu. I think his main plan is still to make Gaza uninhabitable and keep it going until there are so few Palestinians left that they can just annex it.
I have mixed feelings about the pier vs just relying on trucks. On the one hand not enough trucks are going through. Iirc the current flow of trucks is only 1/6 what is needed. It is clear that the crossings could be sending a lot more trucks through.
On the other hand if they can get all the cargo cleared in Cyprus for the whole ship and then use trucks to offload then I think the pier could be a much more efficient way to get aid into Gaza.
The bottom line for me on the numbers issue is that even if we allow for some margin of error or even active padding — the number of people dying is still totally unacceptable.
posted by interogative mood at 12:28 PM on May 18
I have mixed feelings about the pier vs just relying on trucks. On the one hand not enough trucks are going through. Iirc the current flow of trucks is only 1/6 what is needed. It is clear that the crossings could be sending a lot more trucks through.
On the other hand if they can get all the cargo cleared in Cyprus for the whole ship and then use trucks to offload then I think the pier could be a much more efficient way to get aid into Gaza.
The bottom line for me on the numbers issue is that even if we allow for some margin of error or even active padding — the number of people dying is still totally unacceptable.
posted by interogative mood at 12:28 PM on May 18
Gallant says he wants to see the postwar plan by June 8th or he leaves. On the one hand he has said Israel needs to have a plan to restore military/security and civilian authority to Palestinians in Gaza. On the other hand he’s still on the likkud / pro-settler /right wing side of Israeli politics. He doesn’t have the votes in the Knesset to topple Netenyahu’s coalition; so it is unclear what his resignation would mean.
posted by interogative mood at 2:33 PM on May 18
posted by interogative mood at 2:33 PM on May 18
Somebody's got to be the first to pull out of the coalition if it's going to fall.
posted by Justinian at 3:37 PM on May 18 [1 favorite]
posted by Justinian at 3:37 PM on May 18 [1 favorite]
there. is. no. numbers. issue. some dumb but understandable confusion got quickly clarified and anyone still trying to make it a thing is not acting how someone would act who thinks the killing is unacceptable.
posted by busted_crayons at 3:38 PM on May 18 [8 favorites]
posted by busted_crayons at 3:38 PM on May 18 [8 favorites]
Gallant says he wants to see the postwar plan by June 8th or he leaves.
Gallant or Gantz? Anyway Barak Ravid with an update: Netanyahu rejects Gantz's ultimatum. In his statement Netanyahu made clear he is against a Palestinian state as part of normalization agreement with Saudi Arabia
But this is reminding me of this earlier piece which I didn't share because I haven't gone thru it, but it's Atlantic so there's a sympathetic ear: The Israeli Defense Establishment Revolts Against Netanyahu - To appease his far-right flank, the prime minister has refused to commit to Palestinian governance of Gaza. Israel’s security figures are calling his bluff.
---
Well, I suppose this is a type of political judo: (Haaretz) 'Proud to Prevent Arab Takeover': Israel's Smotrich Confirms NYT Investigation, Dubs It 'Blood Libel' - 'I am proud to fight and prevent the Arab takeover of the territories and help legitimize the Jewish heroes who settle the West Bank,' wrote Smotrich in response to a released document that blames him for undermining the effort to clamp down on illegal settlement construction
Israel's Finance Minister Bezalel Smotrich has responded to a major investigation by the New York Times surrounding a meeting record from March in which Central Command chief Maj. Gen. Yehuda Fox blames Smotrich of trying "to undermine law enforcement in the occupied territory," and accused the "paper that regularly incites against Israel" of publishing a "blood libel."
The article, which was published on Thursday, describes the way in which the extremist religious right has transformed from a fringe movement to a major political force, de facto ruling Israel and leading the legal system to decay in the West Bank.
Smotrich responded in a tweet, saying, "the New York Times article with a so-called 'secret document' is a blood libel by a paper that regularly incites against Israel, this time plainly in collaboration with IDF officials. We will do everything to prevent a Palestinian state that will endanger our existence here. The battle over empty territories will determine that, so I am proud to fight and prevent the Arab takeover of the territories and help legitimize the Jewish heroes who settle the West Bank. Kfar Sava will not be Kfar Azza!
So let me get this straight, according to Zionists, 'blood libel' is for true things? Truly European antisemitism (which birthed this movement) is the fucking worst sequel to the Holocaust, because now antisemites can shake their legs giving remote support to Jewish people's ruin, and the Israelis and other Zionists will do it too, taking Palestinians along through no fault of their own. This is like when Hindutvas would rather erase their own cultural diversity for some Brahmanic puritanism born out of orientalism (an ideological origin shared with Muslim ethnofascists). You'd rather get led on the nose by European fascisms too huh.
----
Unfortunate update, per Ryan Grim: Since November, the Israeli govt, the New York Times, and others have relied heavily on a Physicians for Human Rights Israel report on Hamas sexual violence.
PHRI is now heavily walking back its report, noting it never reached any conclusions and only advocated for an investigation, and regrets the inclusion of erroneous and unreliable information.
We will continue to hear similar statements in the months and years to come -- when the issue can safely be talked about, and its purpose is horrifically complete.
The report: Physicians for Human Rights Israel’s Clarification on the Organization’s November 2023 Position Paper on Sexual Violence
We stressed that our goal was not to authenticate or discredit the referenced reports and allegations or meet a legal threshold. Instead, our focus was on raising awareness of the issue, advocating for an official investigation, and pressing for immediate action to ensure that potential victims receive professional care suited to the nature of their trauma.
(...)
Our call, alongside those of other groups, to investigate the suspicions of sexual violence did prompt an investigation by a professional body — a team led by the Special Representative of the Secretary-General on Sexual Violence in Conflict, Ms. Pramila Patten. Its task was to gather, assess, and authenticate information about instances of sexual violence occurring on and after October 7. The team released its findings in a report, confirming that “there are reasonable grounds to believe that conflict-related sexual violence occurred during the 7 October attacks in multiple locations across Gaza periphery, including rape and gang rape, in at least three locations.” Regarding the hostages held in Gaza, the team found “clear and convincing information that some have been subjected to various forms of conflict-related sexual violence including rape and sexualized torture and sexualized cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment and it also has reasonable grounds to believe that such violence may be ongoing.”
In the extensive investigations conducted in the months following the publication of the position paper in November, some testimonies referenced within it have been disputed or deemed unverifiable, and more may face similar scrutiny in the future. We regret their inclusion in the position paper. As mentioned, a substantial portion of the information that is now available was not accessible when the document was originally drafted. The new information that has come to light further reinforces our call for an investigation into the subject. It is crucial to recognize that due to the fragmented nature of traumatic memories, they are often expressed in incomplete, confused, or contradictory ways. Therefore, it is neither accurate nor just for persons lacking the required expertise and tools to assess the credibility of witnesses. Accordingly, moving forward, we will rely on the Patten report and, when available, additional reports and documents produced by competent investigative bodies. We will continue to monitor their findings and reports while drawing necessary professional conclusions.
Since October 7, the Israeli government and other entities have been exploiting reports of sexual violence in a manipulative and cynical manner. These reports have been utilized as part of a campaign to dehumanize Palestinians and as a propaganda tool to justify Israel’s brutal military assault on the Gaza Strip. This assault has resulted, and continues to result, in the deaths and injuries of tens of thousands of innocent civilians, the forced displacement and starvation of most of the Gaza Strip’s population, and extensive destruction of civilian infrastructure, including health facilities. We are appalled by this cynical exploitation of the victims’ suffering, condemn it, and view it as a complete abandonment of any moral integrity.
We emphasize once again: Sexual violence and allegations of sexual violence must never be weaponized as tools of warfare or propaganda. As a human rights organization, we remain committed to standing alongside victims, raising awareness about any suspected harm or rights infringements, and doing so impartially, regardless of the origin of the violations. This is our duty, and we will persist in fulfilling it to the best of our ability.
Anyway, idk which will come next first, correcting that awful article describing a "sexual Shoah" and the retraction of the film that Sheryl Sandberg is doing the promo circuit for, or people calling PHR Hamas. Probably whichever that is the easiest, laziest, and requires the least effort to think of Palestinians as people.
posted by cendawanita at 4:08 PM on May 18 [7 favorites]
Gallant or Gantz? Anyway Barak Ravid with an update: Netanyahu rejects Gantz's ultimatum. In his statement Netanyahu made clear he is against a Palestinian state as part of normalization agreement with Saudi Arabia
But this is reminding me of this earlier piece which I didn't share because I haven't gone thru it, but it's Atlantic so there's a sympathetic ear: The Israeli Defense Establishment Revolts Against Netanyahu - To appease his far-right flank, the prime minister has refused to commit to Palestinian governance of Gaza. Israel’s security figures are calling his bluff.
---
Well, I suppose this is a type of political judo: (Haaretz) 'Proud to Prevent Arab Takeover': Israel's Smotrich Confirms NYT Investigation, Dubs It 'Blood Libel' - 'I am proud to fight and prevent the Arab takeover of the territories and help legitimize the Jewish heroes who settle the West Bank,' wrote Smotrich in response to a released document that blames him for undermining the effort to clamp down on illegal settlement construction
Israel's Finance Minister Bezalel Smotrich has responded to a major investigation by the New York Times surrounding a meeting record from March in which Central Command chief Maj. Gen. Yehuda Fox blames Smotrich of trying "to undermine law enforcement in the occupied territory," and accused the "paper that regularly incites against Israel" of publishing a "blood libel."
The article, which was published on Thursday, describes the way in which the extremist religious right has transformed from a fringe movement to a major political force, de facto ruling Israel and leading the legal system to decay in the West Bank.
Smotrich responded in a tweet, saying, "the New York Times article with a so-called 'secret document' is a blood libel by a paper that regularly incites against Israel, this time plainly in collaboration with IDF officials. We will do everything to prevent a Palestinian state that will endanger our existence here. The battle over empty territories will determine that, so I am proud to fight and prevent the Arab takeover of the territories and help legitimize the Jewish heroes who settle the West Bank. Kfar Sava will not be Kfar Azza!
So let me get this straight, according to Zionists, 'blood libel' is for true things? Truly European antisemitism (which birthed this movement) is the fucking worst sequel to the Holocaust, because now antisemites can shake their legs giving remote support to Jewish people's ruin, and the Israelis and other Zionists will do it too, taking Palestinians along through no fault of their own. This is like when Hindutvas would rather erase their own cultural diversity for some Brahmanic puritanism born out of orientalism (an ideological origin shared with Muslim ethnofascists). You'd rather get led on the nose by European fascisms too huh.
----
Unfortunate update, per Ryan Grim: Since November, the Israeli govt, the New York Times, and others have relied heavily on a Physicians for Human Rights Israel report on Hamas sexual violence.
PHRI is now heavily walking back its report, noting it never reached any conclusions and only advocated for an investigation, and regrets the inclusion of erroneous and unreliable information.
We will continue to hear similar statements in the months and years to come -- when the issue can safely be talked about, and its purpose is horrifically complete.
The report: Physicians for Human Rights Israel’s Clarification on the Organization’s November 2023 Position Paper on Sexual Violence
We stressed that our goal was not to authenticate or discredit the referenced reports and allegations or meet a legal threshold. Instead, our focus was on raising awareness of the issue, advocating for an official investigation, and pressing for immediate action to ensure that potential victims receive professional care suited to the nature of their trauma.
(...)
Our call, alongside those of other groups, to investigate the suspicions of sexual violence did prompt an investigation by a professional body — a team led by the Special Representative of the Secretary-General on Sexual Violence in Conflict, Ms. Pramila Patten. Its task was to gather, assess, and authenticate information about instances of sexual violence occurring on and after October 7. The team released its findings in a report, confirming that “there are reasonable grounds to believe that conflict-related sexual violence occurred during the 7 October attacks in multiple locations across Gaza periphery, including rape and gang rape, in at least three locations.” Regarding the hostages held in Gaza, the team found “clear and convincing information that some have been subjected to various forms of conflict-related sexual violence including rape and sexualized torture and sexualized cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment and it also has reasonable grounds to believe that such violence may be ongoing.”
In the extensive investigations conducted in the months following the publication of the position paper in November, some testimonies referenced within it have been disputed or deemed unverifiable, and more may face similar scrutiny in the future. We regret their inclusion in the position paper. As mentioned, a substantial portion of the information that is now available was not accessible when the document was originally drafted. The new information that has come to light further reinforces our call for an investigation into the subject. It is crucial to recognize that due to the fragmented nature of traumatic memories, they are often expressed in incomplete, confused, or contradictory ways. Therefore, it is neither accurate nor just for persons lacking the required expertise and tools to assess the credibility of witnesses. Accordingly, moving forward, we will rely on the Patten report and, when available, additional reports and documents produced by competent investigative bodies. We will continue to monitor their findings and reports while drawing necessary professional conclusions.
Since October 7, the Israeli government and other entities have been exploiting reports of sexual violence in a manipulative and cynical manner. These reports have been utilized as part of a campaign to dehumanize Palestinians and as a propaganda tool to justify Israel’s brutal military assault on the Gaza Strip. This assault has resulted, and continues to result, in the deaths and injuries of tens of thousands of innocent civilians, the forced displacement and starvation of most of the Gaza Strip’s population, and extensive destruction of civilian infrastructure, including health facilities. We are appalled by this cynical exploitation of the victims’ suffering, condemn it, and view it as a complete abandonment of any moral integrity.
We emphasize once again: Sexual violence and allegations of sexual violence must never be weaponized as tools of warfare or propaganda. As a human rights organization, we remain committed to standing alongside victims, raising awareness about any suspected harm or rights infringements, and doing so impartially, regardless of the origin of the violations. This is our duty, and we will persist in fulfilling it to the best of our ability.
Anyway, idk which will come next first, correcting that awful article describing a "sexual Shoah" and the retraction of the film that Sheryl Sandberg is doing the promo circuit for, or people calling PHR Hamas. Probably whichever that is the easiest, laziest, and requires the least effort to think of Palestinians as people.
posted by cendawanita at 4:08 PM on May 18 [7 favorites]
even if we allow for some margin of error or even active padding
Still trying to sneak this in under the radar, huh? The actual state of affairs is that, far from being padded, the official number is probably a factor-of-two undercount at the very least, given a) over 10,000 people under the rubble still classified as "missing" rather than "dead", and b) the number of people dying from disease and famine who aren't being classified as direct casualties of Israeli attack, but are nonetheless victims of Israel's genocide.
posted by adrienneleigh at 4:08 PM on May 18 [12 favorites]
Still trying to sneak this in under the radar, huh? The actual state of affairs is that, far from being padded, the official number is probably a factor-of-two undercount at the very least, given a) over 10,000 people under the rubble still classified as "missing" rather than "dead", and b) the number of people dying from disease and famine who aren't being classified as direct casualties of Israeli attack, but are nonetheless victims of Israel's genocide.
posted by adrienneleigh at 4:08 PM on May 18 [12 favorites]
Meanwhile, the Forensic Architecture group announced (on Twitter; link contains video) that
NEW: Our analysis of reported data identifies at least 80 separate attacks by Israel on aid in Gaza since January. The frequency and widespread nature of these attacks suggests that Israel is systematically targeting aid.posted by adrienneleigh at 4:09 PM on May 18 [8 favorites]
Re: the FA thread, this is the website version as well. For recall, this is the group led by Eyal Weizman who's had his LRB piece ('Three Genocides') featured as FPP as well.
Speaking of Germany and Israel, this doozy of a longread is also something I'm still going through: (The Baffler) How German Isn’t It - The ceremonial performance of Jewishness in Germany
I'm still going through on account of going, WHAT IN THE DOLEZAL, every few minutes.
But back to aid: (Intercept) The State Department Says Israel Isn’t Blocking Aid. Videos Show the Opposite. - From targeting humanitarian vehicles to standing by as mobs attack trucks, Israel is blocking aid from reaching Gaza.
And speaking of videos and other warcrime scrapbooking activities: (BBC Verify) Israel troops continue posting abuse footage despite pledge to act
During our earlier investigation, we noticed - and began looking into - a similar pattern of behaviour in the West Bank, which has experienced a spike in violence over the same period.
Despite the BBC's previous reporting on Israeli soldiers' social media misconduct, and the military's subsequent promise to act on our findings, a former Israeli soldier, Ori Givati, says he is far from shocked to hear that this activity is continuing.
A spokesperson for Breaking The Silence - an organisation for former and serving Israeli soldiers which works to expose alleged wrongdoing in the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) - Mr Givati added that in fact he believed current far-right political rhetoric in the country is encouraging it further.
"There are no repercussions. They [Israeli soldiers] get encouraged and supported by the highest ministers of the government," he said.
And he says this plays into a mindset that the military already subscribes to.
"The culture in the military, when it comes to Palestinians, is that they are only targets. They are not human beings. This is how the military teaches you to behave."
And speaking of the West Bank: (Al-Jazeera's The Take Podcast) The US funding behind illegal Jewish settlements in the West Bank - The Take looks at the US citizens and other dual nationals living in illegal settlements in the occupied West Bank.
And back to the sexual violence: (The Nation) The Gaza Crisis We’re Not Talking About - There is disturbing evidence of a sustained Israeli campaign of sexual violence against men and boys.
Try to overcome one's "who cares, they're/it's just ___" reflex as you read the piece: Since October 7, more than 4,000 Palestinian men, women, and children have been detained in Gaza. In March, the UN reported that 1,002 Palestinian detainees (872 men and 26 boys) who had been released had alleged being brutally beaten, forced to remain in prolonged stress positions (a man was forced to sit on an electrical probe, causing burns to his anus), and/or sexually assaulted (beatings of the genitals and groping).
Last week, a report from CNN, leaked by Israeli whistleblowers, alleged gruesome tactics of torture against Palestinian detainees at the Sde Teiman military base in the Negev desert. One of the released detainees from the camp was Dr. Mohammed al-Ran, the head of the surgical unit at Gaza’s Indonesian Hospital, who recalled being blindfolded, involuntarily stripped, piled on top of other nearly naked men, and sometimes forced to witness torture inflicted on other detainees. Dr. al-Ran recounted the words of a fellow detainee who asked him to find his wife and let her know that “it’s better for them to be martyrs…than to be captured and held here [in the camp].”
(...) This type of violence against men has long been neglected as a subject of discourse, despite the historical evidence showing that it is a common occurrence.
[Conflict-Related Sexual Violence] CRSV against men and boys has been documented in more than 25 different armed conflicts, suggesting that its incidence is much higher than presumed. In one concentration camp in Sarajevo, 80 percent of the male detainees were reportedly raped. During the Rwandan genocide, Tutsi men and boys were often castrated and forced to have sex with HIV-positive women. A 2018 United Nations report on the genocide in Myanmar showed that men and boys were subject to rape, genital mutilation, and sexual torture. Reports from Syria show that young men, boys, and transgender women are victims of sexual violence, including sexual slavery, where detained people are held captive and used to “satisfy the sexual needs” of authorities.
Several studies over the years have shown the negative health consequences for male survivors of CRSV, including incapacity to sexually perform with their partners, genital and anal fissures, urinary and fecal incontinence, memory loss, post-traumatic stress disorder, depression, and suicidal ideations.
But if the evidence is clear, so are the reasons evidence gets overlooked. Interviews with judges and lawyers from the International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia (ICTY) revealed that many of them held patriarchal as well as misogynistic views of survivors and were influenced by their own cultural norms when examining CRSV cases.
Patriarchy positions men as the pillars of not only their families but also their communities. Thus, when a man becomes a victim of sexual violence, he is often deemed to have been emasculated, aligning with the gender that is socially and culturally deemed “inferior.” For example, many of the judges at the ICTY, a majority of whom were men, dismissed cases where the victims of sexual violence were men and expressed that they viewed female victims as fragile, something that made the judges uncomfortable to ask questions. This reluctance to hear testimonies hinders many survivors from speaking up.
(...) It wasn’t until the 2013 United Nations Security Council Resolution 2106 that CRSV against men and boys was explicitly recognized in international law. Yet even with the passing of the resolution, international justice processes continue to code CRSV against men and boys as torture instead of recognizing the sexual nature of the crime. This has influenced the sentencing of the perpetrators as well as the legal understanding of sexual violence as consisting of only rape.
Reducing CRSV to only rape not only ignores the many ways people can be sexually victimized and harmed but also restricts survivors from recognizing their experiences as such, which also influences their decision to report their experiences. Ní Aoláin, an Irish human rights lawyer, has noted that legal assessments must recognize that CRSV also consists of connected harms, which include cases where men are involuntarily stripped, sexually threatened during interrogation, subjected to “boy play” (sexual slavery), forced to masturbate, forced to witness their family members being sexually assaulted, and forced to commit a sexual assault on someone—often a family member.
I think back to Hakim, and how his family did not receive any aid as refugees beyond food and temporary shelter. I think of his mother and wonder how many Palestinian mothers are holding the same kind of pain and grief for their living sons. I also reflect on my experiences volunteering with CRSV survivors in Michigan and their perception of mental health services. They’d express concerns about when to seek out help, worry about what their neighbors might say, or even try to brush their experiences off by, for instance, saying they were lucky not to get raped.
(...) Palestinian men and boys who suffer this kind of abuse also have to contend with the racism that so often blinds people to their experiences. The depictions of Arab and Muslim men as savages, terrorists, and abusers systematically displace them from the narrative of the victim, which in turn, questions the survivors’ innocence. This project was evident as media sources began to question whether Palestinian men and boys who were involuntarily stripped and abused were civilians or terrorists. It appears that the Israeli military has solidified the impression that these are full-grown Palestinian men, after outrage on social media that led to more questions about mass detention and who the men are. It was later in December that children were found to be among the detainees. The series of events continued, with more news sources reporting that Israel’s treatment of Palestinian detainees amounted to torture.
The hierarchization of the forms of sexual violence and its targets are found widely in academic journals, research, and reports from humanitarian agencies, which in turn influence funding calls and policies that aim to address and mitigate sexual violence. Moreover, the “perfect victim” script of CRSV, which depicts the perpetrator as the aggressive male soldier and the victim as the innocent female civilian, often dictates how humanitarian and human rights agencies and public health practitioners collect CRSV data in armed conflict settings and respond to the cases through policies and interventions. Unfortunately, these approaches have resulted in a systematic erasure of male CRSV survivors.
Gideon Levy in the meantime, tries his best: (Haaretz, opinion) What About the Palestinian Hostages? - A Palestinian from Gaza dies in prison, yet the Israel Prison Service does not think it should report the circumstances of his death to the public because he was not a citizen of the state
So what? After all, almost 500 doctors and medical staffers have been killed in the war and their fate failed to arouse any attention. So why should Al-Bursh's death attract any attention? Because he was a department director? No war crime committed by Israel in Gaza has aroused any feelings here in Israel, with the exception of the joy felt by the bloodthirsty right-wing.
On top of the doctor's death came another heinous act: the response of the authorities. The Shin Bet was silent as usual. Ex-Shin Bet officers are now star commentators on television, asked to show us the way, to give us their opinion, but the Shin Bet never talks about those it has interrogated and tortured. The IDF shirked responsibility; the doctor was only "processed" at an army detention facility, and was immediately transferred to the Shin Bet interrogation facility in Kishon, and from there to Ofer Prison, which is under the charge of the Israel Prison Service. The IPS response was pure audacity: "The service does not address the circumstances of the deaths of detainees who are not Israeli citizens."
A man dies in prison, yet the Israel Prison Service does not think it should report the circumstances of his death to the public because he was not a citizen of the state. In other words, the lives of those who are not citizens have no value in Israeli prisons. We should remember this when an Israeli is arrested in Cyprus for rape, or in Peru for drugs, and we are outraged by the conditions of his detention. We remember this even more poignantly when we complain to the world, and rightly so, about the fate of our hostages.
How can people identify with the pain felt by Israelis over the fate of the hostages, when these same Israelis turn out to be cold-hearted and indifferent to the fate of the other side's hostages?
Why isn't there a single banner in Tel Aviv's "Hostage Square" calling for an investigation into the killing of the doctor from Gaza? Is his blood less red than the blood of the Israeli hostages who died? Why should the whole world take an interest and work only for our for hostages, and not for the Palestinian hostages, whose conditions of imprisonment and whose deaths in Israeli prisons should horrify everyone?
posted by cendawanita at 5:24 PM on May 18 [13 favorites]
Speaking of Germany and Israel, this doozy of a longread is also something I'm still going through: (The Baffler) How German Isn’t It - The ceremonial performance of Jewishness in Germany
I'm still going through on account of going, WHAT IN THE DOLEZAL, every few minutes.
But back to aid: (Intercept) The State Department Says Israel Isn’t Blocking Aid. Videos Show the Opposite. - From targeting humanitarian vehicles to standing by as mobs attack trucks, Israel is blocking aid from reaching Gaza.
And speaking of videos and other warcrime scrapbooking activities: (BBC Verify) Israel troops continue posting abuse footage despite pledge to act
During our earlier investigation, we noticed - and began looking into - a similar pattern of behaviour in the West Bank, which has experienced a spike in violence over the same period.
Despite the BBC's previous reporting on Israeli soldiers' social media misconduct, and the military's subsequent promise to act on our findings, a former Israeli soldier, Ori Givati, says he is far from shocked to hear that this activity is continuing.
A spokesperson for Breaking The Silence - an organisation for former and serving Israeli soldiers which works to expose alleged wrongdoing in the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) - Mr Givati added that in fact he believed current far-right political rhetoric in the country is encouraging it further.
"There are no repercussions. They [Israeli soldiers] get encouraged and supported by the highest ministers of the government," he said.
And he says this plays into a mindset that the military already subscribes to.
"The culture in the military, when it comes to Palestinians, is that they are only targets. They are not human beings. This is how the military teaches you to behave."
And speaking of the West Bank: (Al-Jazeera's The Take Podcast) The US funding behind illegal Jewish settlements in the West Bank - The Take looks at the US citizens and other dual nationals living in illegal settlements in the occupied West Bank.
And back to the sexual violence: (The Nation) The Gaza Crisis We’re Not Talking About - There is disturbing evidence of a sustained Israeli campaign of sexual violence against men and boys.
Try to overcome one's "who cares, they're/it's just ___" reflex as you read the piece: Since October 7, more than 4,000 Palestinian men, women, and children have been detained in Gaza. In March, the UN reported that 1,002 Palestinian detainees (872 men and 26 boys) who had been released had alleged being brutally beaten, forced to remain in prolonged stress positions (a man was forced to sit on an electrical probe, causing burns to his anus), and/or sexually assaulted (beatings of the genitals and groping).
Last week, a report from CNN, leaked by Israeli whistleblowers, alleged gruesome tactics of torture against Palestinian detainees at the Sde Teiman military base in the Negev desert. One of the released detainees from the camp was Dr. Mohammed al-Ran, the head of the surgical unit at Gaza’s Indonesian Hospital, who recalled being blindfolded, involuntarily stripped, piled on top of other nearly naked men, and sometimes forced to witness torture inflicted on other detainees. Dr. al-Ran recounted the words of a fellow detainee who asked him to find his wife and let her know that “it’s better for them to be martyrs…than to be captured and held here [in the camp].”
(...) This type of violence against men has long been neglected as a subject of discourse, despite the historical evidence showing that it is a common occurrence.
[Conflict-Related Sexual Violence] CRSV against men and boys has been documented in more than 25 different armed conflicts, suggesting that its incidence is much higher than presumed. In one concentration camp in Sarajevo, 80 percent of the male detainees were reportedly raped. During the Rwandan genocide, Tutsi men and boys were often castrated and forced to have sex with HIV-positive women. A 2018 United Nations report on the genocide in Myanmar showed that men and boys were subject to rape, genital mutilation, and sexual torture. Reports from Syria show that young men, boys, and transgender women are victims of sexual violence, including sexual slavery, where detained people are held captive and used to “satisfy the sexual needs” of authorities.
Several studies over the years have shown the negative health consequences for male survivors of CRSV, including incapacity to sexually perform with their partners, genital and anal fissures, urinary and fecal incontinence, memory loss, post-traumatic stress disorder, depression, and suicidal ideations.
But if the evidence is clear, so are the reasons evidence gets overlooked. Interviews with judges and lawyers from the International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia (ICTY) revealed that many of them held patriarchal as well as misogynistic views of survivors and were influenced by their own cultural norms when examining CRSV cases.
Patriarchy positions men as the pillars of not only their families but also their communities. Thus, when a man becomes a victim of sexual violence, he is often deemed to have been emasculated, aligning with the gender that is socially and culturally deemed “inferior.” For example, many of the judges at the ICTY, a majority of whom were men, dismissed cases where the victims of sexual violence were men and expressed that they viewed female victims as fragile, something that made the judges uncomfortable to ask questions. This reluctance to hear testimonies hinders many survivors from speaking up.
(...) It wasn’t until the 2013 United Nations Security Council Resolution 2106 that CRSV against men and boys was explicitly recognized in international law. Yet even with the passing of the resolution, international justice processes continue to code CRSV against men and boys as torture instead of recognizing the sexual nature of the crime. This has influenced the sentencing of the perpetrators as well as the legal understanding of sexual violence as consisting of only rape.
Reducing CRSV to only rape not only ignores the many ways people can be sexually victimized and harmed but also restricts survivors from recognizing their experiences as such, which also influences their decision to report their experiences. Ní Aoláin, an Irish human rights lawyer, has noted that legal assessments must recognize that CRSV also consists of connected harms, which include cases where men are involuntarily stripped, sexually threatened during interrogation, subjected to “boy play” (sexual slavery), forced to masturbate, forced to witness their family members being sexually assaulted, and forced to commit a sexual assault on someone—often a family member.
I think back to Hakim, and how his family did not receive any aid as refugees beyond food and temporary shelter. I think of his mother and wonder how many Palestinian mothers are holding the same kind of pain and grief for their living sons. I also reflect on my experiences volunteering with CRSV survivors in Michigan and their perception of mental health services. They’d express concerns about when to seek out help, worry about what their neighbors might say, or even try to brush their experiences off by, for instance, saying they were lucky not to get raped.
(...) Palestinian men and boys who suffer this kind of abuse also have to contend with the racism that so often blinds people to their experiences. The depictions of Arab and Muslim men as savages, terrorists, and abusers systematically displace them from the narrative of the victim, which in turn, questions the survivors’ innocence. This project was evident as media sources began to question whether Palestinian men and boys who were involuntarily stripped and abused were civilians or terrorists. It appears that the Israeli military has solidified the impression that these are full-grown Palestinian men, after outrage on social media that led to more questions about mass detention and who the men are. It was later in December that children were found to be among the detainees. The series of events continued, with more news sources reporting that Israel’s treatment of Palestinian detainees amounted to torture.
The hierarchization of the forms of sexual violence and its targets are found widely in academic journals, research, and reports from humanitarian agencies, which in turn influence funding calls and policies that aim to address and mitigate sexual violence. Moreover, the “perfect victim” script of CRSV, which depicts the perpetrator as the aggressive male soldier and the victim as the innocent female civilian, often dictates how humanitarian and human rights agencies and public health practitioners collect CRSV data in armed conflict settings and respond to the cases through policies and interventions. Unfortunately, these approaches have resulted in a systematic erasure of male CRSV survivors.
Gideon Levy in the meantime, tries his best: (Haaretz, opinion) What About the Palestinian Hostages? - A Palestinian from Gaza dies in prison, yet the Israel Prison Service does not think it should report the circumstances of his death to the public because he was not a citizen of the state
So what? After all, almost 500 doctors and medical staffers have been killed in the war and their fate failed to arouse any attention. So why should Al-Bursh's death attract any attention? Because he was a department director? No war crime committed by Israel in Gaza has aroused any feelings here in Israel, with the exception of the joy felt by the bloodthirsty right-wing.
On top of the doctor's death came another heinous act: the response of the authorities. The Shin Bet was silent as usual. Ex-Shin Bet officers are now star commentators on television, asked to show us the way, to give us their opinion, but the Shin Bet never talks about those it has interrogated and tortured. The IDF shirked responsibility; the doctor was only "processed" at an army detention facility, and was immediately transferred to the Shin Bet interrogation facility in Kishon, and from there to Ofer Prison, which is under the charge of the Israel Prison Service. The IPS response was pure audacity: "The service does not address the circumstances of the deaths of detainees who are not Israeli citizens."
A man dies in prison, yet the Israel Prison Service does not think it should report the circumstances of his death to the public because he was not a citizen of the state. In other words, the lives of those who are not citizens have no value in Israeli prisons. We should remember this when an Israeli is arrested in Cyprus for rape, or in Peru for drugs, and we are outraged by the conditions of his detention. We remember this even more poignantly when we complain to the world, and rightly so, about the fate of our hostages.
How can people identify with the pain felt by Israelis over the fate of the hostages, when these same Israelis turn out to be cold-hearted and indifferent to the fate of the other side's hostages?
Why isn't there a single banner in Tel Aviv's "Hostage Square" calling for an investigation into the killing of the doctor from Gaza? Is his blood less red than the blood of the Israeli hostages who died? Why should the whole world take an interest and work only for our for hostages, and not for the Palestinian hostages, whose conditions of imprisonment and whose deaths in Israeli prisons should horrify everyone?
posted by cendawanita at 5:24 PM on May 18 [13 favorites]
I'm honestly surprised that Gideon Levy isn't a political prisoner himself, yet. Israel has certainly done worse, to better people.
posted by adrienneleigh at 5:44 PM on May 18 [3 favorites]
posted by adrienneleigh at 5:44 PM on May 18 [3 favorites]
Both Gallant and Ganz are among demands about the post war plan for governing Gaza. Ganz is setting a June 8th deadline.
posted by interogative mood at 8:44 PM on May 18
posted by interogative mood at 8:44 PM on May 18
So let me get this straight, according to Zionists, 'blood libel' is for true things?
No, "blood libel" is for wheeling out to trigger a knee-jerk fear in anybody left of Meir Kahane that they've just said something antisemitic. The term used to have a specific meaning, but as is the way with any phrase co-opted by the right-wing noise machine, it now functions almost exclusively as a thought-terminating cliche.
Is his blood less red than the blood of the Israeli hostages who died?
aaah... ummm... quick, quick, need a rebuttal to this discomfiting point... oh! it mentions blood! that will do...
BLOOD LIBEL
I expect to see this "rebuttal" feature prominently in most responses to Gideon Levy's piece.
posted by flabdablet at 9:26 PM on May 18 [9 favorites]
No, "blood libel" is for wheeling out to trigger a knee-jerk fear in anybody left of Meir Kahane that they've just said something antisemitic. The term used to have a specific meaning, but as is the way with any phrase co-opted by the right-wing noise machine, it now functions almost exclusively as a thought-terminating cliche.
Is his blood less red than the blood of the Israeli hostages who died?
aaah... ummm... quick, quick, need a rebuttal to this discomfiting point... oh! it mentions blood! that will do...
BLOOD LIBEL
I expect to see this "rebuttal" feature prominently in most responses to Gideon Levy's piece.
posted by flabdablet at 9:26 PM on May 18 [9 favorites]
It's so wild that six years ago I was researching anti-semitism to avoid accidentally invoking tropes by talking about oranges (blood oranges - blood libel), so liberals would take me more seriously, and nowadays Zionists are just posting "I believe the only innocent Palestinians are those too young to crawl" but nothing else about the liberal discourse has changed.
Do Zionists know that we all have auto-translate? That we can read everything they say?
posted by Audreynachrome at 3:30 AM on May 19 [14 favorites]
Do Zionists know that we all have auto-translate? That we can read everything they say?
posted by Audreynachrome at 3:30 AM on May 19 [14 favorites]
Iran’s President, Foreign Minister and several other senior government leaders were just involved in a serious helicopter crash. Initial reports suggest an accident in heavy fog. Rescue crews are still looking for the wreckage.
posted by interogative mood at 9:52 AM on May 19 [1 favorite]
posted by interogative mood at 9:52 AM on May 19 [1 favorite]
This is fine.
posted by flabdablet at 10:06 AM on May 19
posted by flabdablet at 10:06 AM on May 19
This is potentially very bad. You hope everyone is ok and if not you hope the Iranians decide it was an accident. President Raisi was an heir apparent to the Supreme Leader. The FM Amir-Abdollahian is like their Henry Kissinger in the early 1970s — a monster but also towering figure and architect of Iranian foreign policy. The kind of terrible person have to negotiate with; but if you negotiate a deal; he can actually get it approved make it stick.
The Helicopter crashed after returning from the inauguration of a dam in Azerbaijan that was jointly built by the two countries. Azerbaijan is also a NATO partner and has significant economic and security ties to Israel. So in the post truth world of narrative over facts — it’s easy to see how the Iranians could decide this was an assassination, or some Iranian politician could decide to claim it was as part of a populist appeal.
posted by interogative mood at 11:13 AM on May 19
The Helicopter crashed after returning from the inauguration of a dam in Azerbaijan that was jointly built by the two countries. Azerbaijan is also a NATO partner and has significant economic and security ties to Israel. So in the post truth world of narrative over facts — it’s easy to see how the Iranians could decide this was an assassination, or some Iranian politician could decide to claim it was as part of a populist appeal.
posted by interogative mood at 11:13 AM on May 19
Barak Ravid's access journalism continues to bear fruit, and allows the theatre with the Israeli security apparatus to continue: Bibi blocks Israeli intel chiefs' meetings with U.S. officials
Loads of details, do with them what you wish. Anyway, *clears throat*: grr
Instead, the U.S. officials and some Netanyahu critics in Israel saw it as a sign of what appears to be his growing suspicion about Israel's intelligence, military and security establishment, which hold divergent views about how the prime minister is carrying out the war.
Also: (Economist) The Israeli army is caught in a doom loop in Gaza - And the refusal to plan for the day after the war is fuelling a crisis with America
posted by cendawanita at 12:11 PM on May 19 [1 favorite]
Loads of details, do with them what you wish. Anyway, *clears throat*: grr
Instead, the U.S. officials and some Netanyahu critics in Israel saw it as a sign of what appears to be his growing suspicion about Israel's intelligence, military and security establishment, which hold divergent views about how the prime minister is carrying out the war.
Also: (Economist) The Israeli army is caught in a doom loop in Gaza - And the refusal to plan for the day after the war is fuelling a crisis with America
posted by cendawanita at 12:11 PM on May 19 [1 favorite]
You hope everyone is ok and if not you hope the Iranians decide it was an accident.
It’s bad even if it is an accident - the helicopter was old and repair parts are hard to get because of US-led sanctions.
posted by corb at 12:32 PM on May 19 [2 favorites]
It’s bad even if it is an accident - the helicopter was old and repair parts are hard to get because of US-led sanctions.
posted by corb at 12:32 PM on May 19 [2 favorites]
If it were anything other than a helicopter, i'd be betting heavily on "Israeli assassination". As it is, i figure it's no higher than a 30% chance of assassination; helicopters are finicky at the best of times, and "cold foggy mountains" are NOT where they do best.
posted by adrienneleigh at 3:55 PM on May 19 [3 favorites]
posted by adrienneleigh at 3:55 PM on May 19 [3 favorites]
Fyi there's now an FPP for the crash.
---
Mondoweiss: How Israel turned hospitals into ‘military targets’ by lying about international law - The bar for hospitals to lose protected status under international law is set very high. Those conditions were not met for any of the 36 hospitals in Gaza that Israel destroyed.
Le Monde:
Delivery of aid to Gaza by sea is a 'smokescreen' given the scale of the needs -
The floating pier set up by the United States became operational on Friday, at a time when the Israeli army forced more than 600,000 people to leave the southern city of Rafah in chaos and particularly difficult sanitary conditions.
Washington's maritime initiative was an admission of impotence: The United States had failed to force its Israeli ally to open its borders sufficiently to international aid, in order to prevent the outbreak of famine in Gaza. Three months later, the United Nations has officially declared a full-fledged famine in the north of the enclave, the borders have never been so hermetically sealed since January, and the pier was being made operational before the eyes of disillusioned aid workers.
"This operation is a smokescreen, a distraction. Although the aid is welcome, it cannot compensate for what Israel is holding back at the borders," noted a senior UN official, speaking on condition of anonymity, even before this first delivery. Biden said on X on Friday that "our work with Israel to further increase the amount of aid getting into Gaza by land continues."
The World Food Program, the UN body that works most closely with the American and Israeli authorities, transported this first symbolic shipment to its warehouses in Deir al-Balah, in the center of the enclave, without incident – nutrient-rich bars, therapeutic rations, water and hygiene kits. Other UN organizations were expected to help distribute the supplies. The UN was hoping for short delays at army checkpoints in the enclave, as the aid has already been inspected by the Israel at its point of departure in Cyprus.
At full capacity, the sea route can carry the equivalent of 150 truckloads of food a day – less than a third of what entered Gaza before the war, and a 10th of what the UN estimates is needed to begin to alleviate the hunger and health emergency that has gripped Gaza over recent months. This is a far cry from the promise to "flood" Gaza with food, repeated by Washington and the Israeli government in March. The pier is only operational when the sea is calm, and is scheduled to be dismantled at the end of the summer season in September.
What seems to be more permanent, however, are the military installations that Israel has set up around the pier to secure its surroundings. The army has made this "an absolute priority," as Washington insists that no American soldier will land on the coast. Israel has integrated the pier at the exit of a militarized road, lined with outposts and observation centers, which splits the enclave down the middle and keeps northern Gaza largely cut off from the world. This is Israel's main point of entry and control in the enclave in the long term, from where the army conducts its raids in the northern Zeitoun and Jabalia districts.
(...) For a long time, President Biden himself had indicated that he was opposed to a large-scale operation in Rafah without a credible plan to protect the city's population and enable the orderly evacuation of civilians. This red line has vanished. Washington is now simply urging its ally not to launch troops too quickly into the western half of Rafah, at the risk of provoking a bloodbath in the crowd.
Common Dreams (Thomas Palley): The Consequences of Israel’s US-Enabled Genocide in Gaza - By backing Israel’s actions, Biden has likely surrendered U.S. democracy into the hands of proto-fascists.
European Jewry experienced the Holocaust, the worst genocide in history, and Israel was created in response to that evil. Given that, it is shocking so many Jews and Israel have embraced actions that qualify as genocide.
That embrace is a tragedy of extraordinary and historic proportions, and the cost to Israel and world Jewry stands to be enormous. The “special” has gone out of Israel, and it is now just a nation among others. Geopolitically, Israel stands to suffer as its special character has been a source of global support.
Given the history of Israel’s creation, the embrace is also a stain on the memory of the Holocaust which is likely to further encourage antisemitism. The Holocaust’s unique standing was a marker of moral authority. By embracing genocide, Israel and its supporters have weakened that marker.
As for the US, the Biden administration has openly and materially assisted Israel in its genocide. In doing so, the US has further lost international credibility re its claim to being exceptional regarding democracy and human rights. That claim was geopolitically beneficial to the US, even if exceptionalism was a myth based on geography which enabled the US to escape conflicts and complications that ensnared others. For decades, the US has been losing credibility owing to its behavior, and support of Israel’s genocide is another nail in the coffin of exceptionalism.
Haaretz: 'Ever Since 1967, Israel Hasn't Managed to Win Any War' -
Brig. Gen. (ret.) Dov Tamari says the heads of Israel's defense agencies should tell PM Netanyahu he isn't allowed to manage the Gaza war. In an interview, he talks about secret commando nuclear operations and claims you can't militarily vanquish a terrorist group
(HA.)
(On a bit about Israelis wiretapping their neighbours - mind you this is described in admiration - you know like how Americans present their spy work to home audiences) As the sophistication and efficiency of operations increased, the unit soldiers were flown to missions in helicopters that also transported their jeeps. The listening devices were attached to raised telephone lines, and eventually to surface communications cables used by the Syrian and Egyptian armies. "The sensors' Achilles heel," he writes, "was the lifespan of the electricity source, and that was a constant problem that made the operations complicated, lengthy, and difficult."
The problem was solved with the help of Zalman Shapiro, a Jewish American chemist and engineer who owned the Nuclear Materials and Equipment Corp. in Pennsylvania for processing uranium for nuclear fuel. "Shapiro noted and drew up everything we asked for, and within a year, or a bit more, the new source of energy landed in Israel," Tamari says. Years later, in a newspaper interview, Shapiro, a great admirer of the state of Israel, admitted that he had supplied the Jewish state with nuclear batteries, which prolonged the life span of the equipment.
"Had that been found out in the United States, this action would have made Shapiro spend years in prison," admits Tamari. The FBI eventually began an investigation against Shapiro on suspicion of smuggling uranium from his factory to the nuclear reactor in Dimona. The investigation was closed with no results.
Allies.
Anyway: "Israel is a country that always wins on the battlefield and always loses in the fight for the accomplishment of the victory," Tamari says. "The IDF is good at combat but terrible at war. The troops and the commanders are excellent, but ever since 1967, we have not managed to win any war. This is not just a problem for the military command, but is rather a diplomatic, political, and social problem."
Why aren't we winning wars?
"Every human society [that exists] in the framework of a state finds itself in a social narrative, willingly or unwillingly. Our narrative is from Holocaust to revival, which was born with the establishment of the state, and at a certain stage, that changed to what is called 'spatial nationalism.'"
Meaning what?
"Every nation is based on expanding. Call it a religion or an ideology. In the United States, it was 'going to the frontier,' going West in the 19th century."
And in Israel?
"The leader of the expansion was the IDF. I have gone through military documents, and it emerges from them that as early as 1950, the General Staff and the top brass were saying that it was imperative not to live at the borders that were determined by the armistice agreements signed in 1949 and that it was necessary to expand, all while justifying it by defense, diplomatic, and economic justifications for it. In this way, they create[d] a subversive culture that aims to constantly exploit any opportunity to accomplish the idea of expanding."
(...) But after 1973, Israel stopped expanding and agreed to return Sinai to the Egyptians.
"Israel realized that it wasn't possible to defend the expansion. Secular Israelis calmed down, but later they have been replaced by the messianic. Spatial nationalism has been decommissioned from the military and moved from the army to political parties."
Tamari adds: "Israel's deterrence doesn't work. Certainly not against a terror organization. The whole raison d'etre of a terror organization's existence is to fight. A terror organization that isn't fighting has ceased to be a terror organization."
And is that what has been happening in the Gaza Strip since Hamas took power?
"Yes. There is a war of attrition going on there now. What were they thinking in the General Staff on October 7? That we would be able to wage a long war while we are shutting off water and electricity for more than 2 million people and trying to starve them? I don't know where this is going to lead, but it is clear to me that the Israeli narrative of from Holocaust to revival, which was accepted in the world beforehand, has lost."
Speaking of expansion, via Lara Friedman, Shachar Keren: Today, the Committee of Ministers for Legislative Affairs will present a bill with a depressing title: "The Authority for the Development of the Negev and the Galilee, the definition of the Negev". This is a full annexation law which basically means that all the settlements and outposts that are below the black line on the map will be included under the Negev and Galilee Development Authority and will be budgeted accordingly
On that note:
MSF: Palestinians face increase in extreme violence and restrictions in the West Bank
While that violence might be nothing new, there has been a spike across the West Bank since 7 October, when the war in Gaza erupted. According to the United Nations Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs (OCHA), in the months following October 2023, 479 Palestinians have been killed, including 116 children, of whom 462 were killed by Israeli forces, 10 by settlers, and eight where it remains unknown whether the perpetrators were settlers or soldiers. Israeli forces and settlers killed one third of these Palestinians in refugee camps in or near Tulkarem and Jenin cities.
DCIP: Israeli forces use Palestinian children as human shields in Tulkarem
Karam, 13, Mohammad, 12, and Ibrahim, 14, were used as human shields by Israeli forces in separate incidents during an Israeli military incursion into Tulkarem refugee camp on May 6, according to documentation collected by Defense for Children International - Palestine. In all three incidents, armed Israeli soldiers forced the boys to walk in front of them as soldiers searched Palestinian homes and neighborhoods in Tulkarem refugee camp, and in two cases, Israeli forces fired weapons positioned on the boys’ shoulders.
Back to Haaretz (opinion piece by Hagai El-Ad): What Will Happen When the Holocaust No Longer Prevents the World From Seeing Israel as It Is?
Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu isn't inventing a thing: not the crimes, and not the exploitation of the Holocaust to silence the world's conscience. But he's been the prime minister for almost a generation. During this period, Israel, under his leadership, took another big step toward a future in which the Palestinian people are erased from the stage of history – certainly if the stage in question is Palestine, the historical homeland.
(...) In Arendt's words, what we're doing to the Palestinians – those who are still in Gaza – is still not rallying the world against Israel. But the world is already permitting itself to think about it aloud.
All this still isn't making us rethink the way we "treat the Arabs." Instead, we are once again trying to breathe new life into the used hasbara balloon. If in 2019 Netanyahu declared that the investigation at the International Criminal Court is an "antisemitic decree" (that didn't stop the investigation) and in 2021 he asserted that this was "pure antisemitism" (and that didn't stop the investigation), then a week ago he started to shout about an "antisemitic hate crime."
Netanyahu, as usual, embeds a few words of truth between one lie and the next. In his speech on the eve of Holocaust Remembrance Day at the Yad Vashem Holocaust memorial, it was true when he described the International Criminal Court as a body "established in response to the Holocaust and other horrors, to ensure that 'Never Again.'" But with exceptional chutzpah, if you think for a moment about the setting and the timing, everything Netanyahu said surrounding this statement was a lie, especially when he asserted that if an arrest warrant is issued against him, "This step would put an indelible stain on the very idea of justice and international law."
The truth is that the stain that is shaking the foundations of international law is the fact that even after years of investigation, as far as we know, there has yet to be an arrest warrant issued against Netanyahu or other Israeli war criminals. That's in spite of the fact that for decades, Israel has been perpetrating, in broad daylight, crimes against the Palestinians, crimes that are government policy, crimes that are approved by the High Court of Justice, which are protected by the opinions of attorney generals and whitewashed by military advocate generals – although all that is overt and known, reported and published, nobody is being held to account for it, neither in Israel nor abroad, at least so far.
We're approaching the moment, and perhaps it's already here, when the memory of the Holocaust won't stop the world from seeing Israel as it is. The moment when the historic crimes committed against our people will stop serving as our Iron Dome, protecting us from being held to account for crimes we are committing in the present against the nation with which we share the historical homeland.
Even if that moment is delayed, it's time for it to arrive. Israel will be without the Holocaust, by two of this year's torch lighters at the prestigious national Independence Day ceremony at Mt Herzl, hasbara genius Yoseph Haddad and the content creator Ella Travels.
Come on. Maybe we would do better to open our eyes and adopt a different attitude toward the Palestinians: to see them as equal human beings. That certainly a far better lesson for the Holocaust. Arendt would probably agree.
(Randomly, people were sharing this old 2014 ToI opinion piece that was later deleted - When Genocide is Permissible - that ends with: "I will conclude with a question for all the humanitarians out there. Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu clearly stated at the outset of this incursion that his objective is to restore a sustainable quiet for the citizens of Israel. We have already established that it is the responsibility of every government to ensure the safety and security of its people. If political leaders and military experts determine that the only way to achieve its goal of sustaining quiet is through genocide is it then permissible to achieve those responsible goals? ")
Guardian: How ‘Zionist’ became a slur on the US left
The shift in opinions on Zionism has been particularly confusing for many Jewish Americans. Though 58% of Jewish Americans describe themselves as Zionist, according to a 2022 survey conducted by Carleton University political scientist Mira Sucharov, the term means vastly different things to different people. A majority see Zionism as signifying a connection to Israel (about 70%), and about just as many view it as a belief in Israel as a Jewish and democratic state (72%), while a small minority describe it as “privileging Jewish rights over non-Jewish rights in Israel” (10%). Recent polling of Americans more broadly shows that many are unfamiliar with the term.
But for Palestinians, the notion that there’s a version of Zionism under which they can live in dignity is contradicted by history, because Zionism underpins the policies that drove their mass displacement from what became Israel in 1948 and has continued to displace them since. “When people think of Zionism now, they look at Gaza,” Saree Makdisi, a professor of English and comparative literature at the University of California at Los Angeles (UCLA), said. “This is what it means: that you want to have an ethnically exclusive state,” he said. “It’s ugly.”
Arguably for the first time, a Palestinian perspective on Zionism is taking center stage in mainstream discourse. “A lot more young people, including young Jews, are listening to their Palestinian friends and classmates who are saying: ‘This is what Zionism means to us,’” said Simone Zimmerman, the media director of Diaspora Alliance, an international organization focused on combating antisemitism and its weaponization. This explains how terms like “ethnostate”, “Jewish supremacy” and “settler-colonialism” have become central to the protests.
(...) Though only a small portion of Jewish Americans see Zionism as “privileging Jewish rights over non-Jewish rights in Israel”, Palestinians, including citizens of Israel, live a very different reality. This has put liberal Zionists in America in a tenuous position. Under ever more extreme right-wing Israeli governments, the long-simmering tensions between a Jewish and a democratic state have come to a boiling point. “The painful truth is that the project to which liberal Zionists like myself have devoted ourselves for decades – a state for Palestinians separated from a state for Jews – has failed,” Peter Beinart wrote in 2020. “It is time for liberal Zionists to abandon the goal of Jewish–Palestinian separation and embrace the goal of Jewish–Palestinian equality.”
Beinart now describes himself as a cultural Zionist, drawing upon debates in the 1940s that held out the possibility of a binational state that also supported a growth of Jewish and Hebrew culture in Mandatory Palestine. But a version of Zionism in practice that doesn’t favor Jewish interests has yet to materialize, and it’s not clear what it would look like.
Can Israel be separated from Zionism? “In principle, nobody has an objection to the Jewish people having a state,” Makdisi, of UCLA, said. “The problem is, where do they choose to have this state? And under what circumstances, and who is being asked to pay the price for it?”
“Jewish people don’t have a right that overrides the Palestinian people’s rights,” he continued.
The rhetoric common on the left today is also perhaps part of a more maximalist shift toward Palestinian liberation. Language of “resistance” has figured prominently in the anti-war protests, in contrast to an earlier emphasis on the co-existence of Israeli Jews and Palestinians.
Many of the protesters believe that a binational state with equal rights for Palestinians is the only way forward. “People have come to the conclusion that reform has not worked and radical action is the solution to make change for a just and peaceful world,” Allie Ryave, a Harvard Law School student protesting in the university’s encampment, said.
Many American Jews feel under attack by the attention on Zionism right now. They may identify with a range of paradigms – secular Zionism, religious Zionism, labor Zionism, liberal Zionism or other forms of Jewish nationalism – now collapsed into a single derisive word.
But Palestinian scholars say the Zionism that the protest movement has put at the center is simply the state of Israel’s overt ideology, which asserts the dominance of Jews over the land. “Zionism as practiced is not an abstraction,” Makdisi said. “It happened in the land of Palestine. It happened at the expense – and it’s happening at the expense – of the Palestinian people.”
At Harvard University’s protest encampment in Cambridge, Massachusetts, sophomore Violet Barron said that she defers to her Palestinian classmates and peers in thinking through these complex issues. “It took watching the scale of devastation in Gaza to understand what a staunch belief in Zionism can justify,” she said.
The Nation (piece by Omer Bertov): Antisemitism, Then and Now: A Guide for the Perplexed
Israel was supposed to solve the “Jewish question” once and for all. A state where the Jews would enjoy sovereignty, security, and prosperity, where they would become part of the international community as equal partners, and where they would “normalize” their existence by being no longer a people of luftmenschen engaging in “air businesses” such as peddling and money exchange, disconnected from the soil on which they lived, but become farmers and soldiers, policemen and construction workers, a new breed of Jews, healthy in body and spirit. In other words, “sabras.”
In fact, Israel never solved the problems that led to its birth. Having undone two millennia of exile, as Zionism would have it, Israel never managed to normalize Jewish existence. Having sought to become a Jewish majority state at any price, it paid the price of creating a vast Palestinian refugee problem that it still refuses to address. Having enjoyed a Jewish majority for the first two decades of its existence, its greed for additional territory transformed it after 1967 into a country half of whose population are Palestinians, none of them with equal rights—most of them with no rights at all. Having sought to provide a secure home for Jews around the world, it has become the most unsafe spot for Jews on the globe. Having claimed to be the final answer to antisemitism, Israel is now the best excuse for antisemites around the globe, a nation whose addiction to violence and oppression, reliance on great powers and financial clout, and constant harping on the horrors of the Holocaust as an excuse for untethered violence against Palestinians are making even its erstwhile supporters shrink from it in discomfort, not to say horror and disgust.
Anyway, back to the light unto the nations, not just about it - DCIP: Israeli forces physically assault and strangle 14-year-old Palestinian child detainee
“We felt very afraid and ran away, but the military vehicles chased us, and one of the military jeeps almost ran me over. I had to stop running, while my friends managed to escape and disappear,” Majd told DCIP. “Around 10 soldiers exited the two military vehicles, pointing their guns at me and started physically assaulting me for 30 minutes.”
“I was screaming and crying in fear and pain. They cuffed my hands behind my back with a single plastic tie, and I was blindfolded, thrown inside a military vehicle,” Majd said, and added that two soldiers assaulted him inside the vehicle for about 10 minutes.
Despite the reason for detention, detained children are protected by several fundamental guarantees in international human rights and humanitarian law, ensuring their right to life, freedom from arrest, and protection against torture, cruel and ill-treatment.
“One of them put his boot on my mouth while stomping on my chest with his other boot,” Majd said.
The military vehicle stopped at an Israeli military checkpoint located at the northern entrance to Azzoun. Majd was taken out of the vehicle, forced to stand still and a soldier repeatedly assaulted him with the stock of his rifle on the chest, head, and waist while directing insults at him.
“I was begging him to stop hitting me but to no avail. He then wrapped his hands around my neck, pressed with all his strength, and said to me in Arabic, ‘I'll kill you by strangulation.’" Majd passed out and regained consciousness around 5 p.m. and found himself in a room, lying on the ground and surrounded by a soldier, a cat, and a military dog.
“I felt really scared, mostly because the sounds made by the dog were terrifying. I started screaming out of fear because the cat scratched my face many times,” Majd told DCIP. “The soldier said in Arabic, 'I will let the dog eat you.'"
Israeli forces continued torturing Majd until around 2 a.m, slamming his head against a wall several times, causing him to collapse and ask for water, but his request was rejected and they forced him to remain silent.
Israeli forces transferred him to Emmanuel Police Station for interrogation at 3:30 a.m where his tie and blindfold were removed. The interrogator accused him of throwing stones at Israeli military vehicles and then allegedly subjected the boy to physical violence for two hours, forced him to sign an electronic screen with an electronic pen, and tied his hands and blindfolded again, according to documentation collected by DCIP.
Guardian: Israeli abuse of jailed Palestinian leader Marwan Barghouti ‘amounts to torture’
Marwan Barghouti spends his days huddled in a cramped, dark, solitary cell, with no way to tend to his wounds, and a shoulder injury from being dragged with his hands cuffed behind his back.
Barghouti holds almost mythic status within Palestinian politics, seen as a figure whose potential to unify different factions has only grown during his 24 years in prison.
The books, newspapers and television that he used to be able to access have been gone since last October, along with any former cellmates. The lights that flicker in his cell each evening are intended to make sleep near impossible.
“Mentally he’s a very strong person, but physically his condition is deteriorating, you can see it. He’s struggling to see out of his right eye, as a result of one of the assaults,” said his lawyer Igal Dotan, who visited Barghouti in Israel’s Megiddo prison two months ago. “He has lost weight – he doesn’t look good. You wouldn’t recognise him if you compare his current appearance with the famous photos of him,” he said.
(...) Every former detainee began their descriptions of detention with the lack of food, and their drastic weight loss in prison. Menus produced by the Israeli prison service show that Palestinian prisoners, referred to as “security prisoners” in the documentation, are given a different diet to other prisoners, one without meat or an ability to buy extra food from the canteen.
In his living room in Ramallah, 74-year-old activist Omar Assaf, who was released in late April, held up a small plastic cup of water, using his thumb to mark the halfway point to show how little rice he was given each day. “What I witnessed the past six months was unprecedented. There is no comparison to what it was like before,” he said. Assaf was arrested in a raid last October and held in Ofer prison in the West Bank without charge, although he laughed recalling Israeli officials accusing him of allegiance to Hamas due to his beard, despite his leftwing politics.
“The first night I got to Ofer prison, I met people with obvious signs of beatings – you could see the bruises, other people had black eyes,” he said. “Sometimes the guards would throw tear gas inside the cells, or fire rubber bullets at close range. I saw people being dragged along the floor by their handcuffs and beaten.”
Prisoners wounded with rubber bullets, he added, received no treatment for their lacerations. But none of this compared to how detainees from Gaza in an adjacent section were treated, he added. “We could hear them being attacked with dogs. We heard them screaming,” he said.
posted by cendawanita at 5:09 PM on May 19 [9 favorites]
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Mondoweiss: How Israel turned hospitals into ‘military targets’ by lying about international law - The bar for hospitals to lose protected status under international law is set very high. Those conditions were not met for any of the 36 hospitals in Gaza that Israel destroyed.
Le Monde:
Delivery of aid to Gaza by sea is a 'smokescreen' given the scale of the needs -
The floating pier set up by the United States became operational on Friday, at a time when the Israeli army forced more than 600,000 people to leave the southern city of Rafah in chaos and particularly difficult sanitary conditions.
Washington's maritime initiative was an admission of impotence: The United States had failed to force its Israeli ally to open its borders sufficiently to international aid, in order to prevent the outbreak of famine in Gaza. Three months later, the United Nations has officially declared a full-fledged famine in the north of the enclave, the borders have never been so hermetically sealed since January, and the pier was being made operational before the eyes of disillusioned aid workers.
"This operation is a smokescreen, a distraction. Although the aid is welcome, it cannot compensate for what Israel is holding back at the borders," noted a senior UN official, speaking on condition of anonymity, even before this first delivery. Biden said on X on Friday that "our work with Israel to further increase the amount of aid getting into Gaza by land continues."
The World Food Program, the UN body that works most closely with the American and Israeli authorities, transported this first symbolic shipment to its warehouses in Deir al-Balah, in the center of the enclave, without incident – nutrient-rich bars, therapeutic rations, water and hygiene kits. Other UN organizations were expected to help distribute the supplies. The UN was hoping for short delays at army checkpoints in the enclave, as the aid has already been inspected by the Israel at its point of departure in Cyprus.
At full capacity, the sea route can carry the equivalent of 150 truckloads of food a day – less than a third of what entered Gaza before the war, and a 10th of what the UN estimates is needed to begin to alleviate the hunger and health emergency that has gripped Gaza over recent months. This is a far cry from the promise to "flood" Gaza with food, repeated by Washington and the Israeli government in March. The pier is only operational when the sea is calm, and is scheduled to be dismantled at the end of the summer season in September.
What seems to be more permanent, however, are the military installations that Israel has set up around the pier to secure its surroundings. The army has made this "an absolute priority," as Washington insists that no American soldier will land on the coast. Israel has integrated the pier at the exit of a militarized road, lined with outposts and observation centers, which splits the enclave down the middle and keeps northern Gaza largely cut off from the world. This is Israel's main point of entry and control in the enclave in the long term, from where the army conducts its raids in the northern Zeitoun and Jabalia districts.
(...) For a long time, President Biden himself had indicated that he was opposed to a large-scale operation in Rafah without a credible plan to protect the city's population and enable the orderly evacuation of civilians. This red line has vanished. Washington is now simply urging its ally not to launch troops too quickly into the western half of Rafah, at the risk of provoking a bloodbath in the crowd.
Common Dreams (Thomas Palley): The Consequences of Israel’s US-Enabled Genocide in Gaza - By backing Israel’s actions, Biden has likely surrendered U.S. democracy into the hands of proto-fascists.
European Jewry experienced the Holocaust, the worst genocide in history, and Israel was created in response to that evil. Given that, it is shocking so many Jews and Israel have embraced actions that qualify as genocide.
That embrace is a tragedy of extraordinary and historic proportions, and the cost to Israel and world Jewry stands to be enormous. The “special” has gone out of Israel, and it is now just a nation among others. Geopolitically, Israel stands to suffer as its special character has been a source of global support.
Given the history of Israel’s creation, the embrace is also a stain on the memory of the Holocaust which is likely to further encourage antisemitism. The Holocaust’s unique standing was a marker of moral authority. By embracing genocide, Israel and its supporters have weakened that marker.
As for the US, the Biden administration has openly and materially assisted Israel in its genocide. In doing so, the US has further lost international credibility re its claim to being exceptional regarding democracy and human rights. That claim was geopolitically beneficial to the US, even if exceptionalism was a myth based on geography which enabled the US to escape conflicts and complications that ensnared others. For decades, the US has been losing credibility owing to its behavior, and support of Israel’s genocide is another nail in the coffin of exceptionalism.
Haaretz: 'Ever Since 1967, Israel Hasn't Managed to Win Any War' -
Brig. Gen. (ret.) Dov Tamari says the heads of Israel's defense agencies should tell PM Netanyahu he isn't allowed to manage the Gaza war. In an interview, he talks about secret commando nuclear operations and claims you can't militarily vanquish a terrorist group
(HA.)
(On a bit about Israelis wiretapping their neighbours - mind you this is described in admiration - you know like how Americans present their spy work to home audiences) As the sophistication and efficiency of operations increased, the unit soldiers were flown to missions in helicopters that also transported their jeeps. The listening devices were attached to raised telephone lines, and eventually to surface communications cables used by the Syrian and Egyptian armies. "The sensors' Achilles heel," he writes, "was the lifespan of the electricity source, and that was a constant problem that made the operations complicated, lengthy, and difficult."
The problem was solved with the help of Zalman Shapiro, a Jewish American chemist and engineer who owned the Nuclear Materials and Equipment Corp. in Pennsylvania for processing uranium for nuclear fuel. "Shapiro noted and drew up everything we asked for, and within a year, or a bit more, the new source of energy landed in Israel," Tamari says. Years later, in a newspaper interview, Shapiro, a great admirer of the state of Israel, admitted that he had supplied the Jewish state with nuclear batteries, which prolonged the life span of the equipment.
"Had that been found out in the United States, this action would have made Shapiro spend years in prison," admits Tamari. The FBI eventually began an investigation against Shapiro on suspicion of smuggling uranium from his factory to the nuclear reactor in Dimona. The investigation was closed with no results.
Allies.
Anyway: "Israel is a country that always wins on the battlefield and always loses in the fight for the accomplishment of the victory," Tamari says. "The IDF is good at combat but terrible at war. The troops and the commanders are excellent, but ever since 1967, we have not managed to win any war. This is not just a problem for the military command, but is rather a diplomatic, political, and social problem."
Why aren't we winning wars?
"Every human society [that exists] in the framework of a state finds itself in a social narrative, willingly or unwillingly. Our narrative is from Holocaust to revival, which was born with the establishment of the state, and at a certain stage, that changed to what is called 'spatial nationalism.'"
Meaning what?
"Every nation is based on expanding. Call it a religion or an ideology. In the United States, it was 'going to the frontier,' going West in the 19th century."
And in Israel?
"The leader of the expansion was the IDF. I have gone through military documents, and it emerges from them that as early as 1950, the General Staff and the top brass were saying that it was imperative not to live at the borders that were determined by the armistice agreements signed in 1949 and that it was necessary to expand, all while justifying it by defense, diplomatic, and economic justifications for it. In this way, they create[d] a subversive culture that aims to constantly exploit any opportunity to accomplish the idea of expanding."
(...) But after 1973, Israel stopped expanding and agreed to return Sinai to the Egyptians.
"Israel realized that it wasn't possible to defend the expansion. Secular Israelis calmed down, but later they have been replaced by the messianic. Spatial nationalism has been decommissioned from the military and moved from the army to political parties."
Tamari adds: "Israel's deterrence doesn't work. Certainly not against a terror organization. The whole raison d'etre of a terror organization's existence is to fight. A terror organization that isn't fighting has ceased to be a terror organization."
And is that what has been happening in the Gaza Strip since Hamas took power?
"Yes. There is a war of attrition going on there now. What were they thinking in the General Staff on October 7? That we would be able to wage a long war while we are shutting off water and electricity for more than 2 million people and trying to starve them? I don't know where this is going to lead, but it is clear to me that the Israeli narrative of from Holocaust to revival, which was accepted in the world beforehand, has lost."
Speaking of expansion, via Lara Friedman, Shachar Keren: Today, the Committee of Ministers for Legislative Affairs will present a bill with a depressing title: "The Authority for the Development of the Negev and the Galilee, the definition of the Negev". This is a full annexation law which basically means that all the settlements and outposts that are below the black line on the map will be included under the Negev and Galilee Development Authority and will be budgeted accordingly
On that note:
MSF: Palestinians face increase in extreme violence and restrictions in the West Bank
While that violence might be nothing new, there has been a spike across the West Bank since 7 October, when the war in Gaza erupted. According to the United Nations Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs (OCHA), in the months following October 2023, 479 Palestinians have been killed, including 116 children, of whom 462 were killed by Israeli forces, 10 by settlers, and eight where it remains unknown whether the perpetrators were settlers or soldiers. Israeli forces and settlers killed one third of these Palestinians in refugee camps in or near Tulkarem and Jenin cities.
DCIP: Israeli forces use Palestinian children as human shields in Tulkarem
Karam, 13, Mohammad, 12, and Ibrahim, 14, were used as human shields by Israeli forces in separate incidents during an Israeli military incursion into Tulkarem refugee camp on May 6, according to documentation collected by Defense for Children International - Palestine. In all three incidents, armed Israeli soldiers forced the boys to walk in front of them as soldiers searched Palestinian homes and neighborhoods in Tulkarem refugee camp, and in two cases, Israeli forces fired weapons positioned on the boys’ shoulders.
Back to Haaretz (opinion piece by Hagai El-Ad): What Will Happen When the Holocaust No Longer Prevents the World From Seeing Israel as It Is?
Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu isn't inventing a thing: not the crimes, and not the exploitation of the Holocaust to silence the world's conscience. But he's been the prime minister for almost a generation. During this period, Israel, under his leadership, took another big step toward a future in which the Palestinian people are erased from the stage of history – certainly if the stage in question is Palestine, the historical homeland.
(...) In Arendt's words, what we're doing to the Palestinians – those who are still in Gaza – is still not rallying the world against Israel. But the world is already permitting itself to think about it aloud.
All this still isn't making us rethink the way we "treat the Arabs." Instead, we are once again trying to breathe new life into the used hasbara balloon. If in 2019 Netanyahu declared that the investigation at the International Criminal Court is an "antisemitic decree" (that didn't stop the investigation) and in 2021 he asserted that this was "pure antisemitism" (and that didn't stop the investigation), then a week ago he started to shout about an "antisemitic hate crime."
Netanyahu, as usual, embeds a few words of truth between one lie and the next. In his speech on the eve of Holocaust Remembrance Day at the Yad Vashem Holocaust memorial, it was true when he described the International Criminal Court as a body "established in response to the Holocaust and other horrors, to ensure that 'Never Again.'" But with exceptional chutzpah, if you think for a moment about the setting and the timing, everything Netanyahu said surrounding this statement was a lie, especially when he asserted that if an arrest warrant is issued against him, "This step would put an indelible stain on the very idea of justice and international law."
The truth is that the stain that is shaking the foundations of international law is the fact that even after years of investigation, as far as we know, there has yet to be an arrest warrant issued against Netanyahu or other Israeli war criminals. That's in spite of the fact that for decades, Israel has been perpetrating, in broad daylight, crimes against the Palestinians, crimes that are government policy, crimes that are approved by the High Court of Justice, which are protected by the opinions of attorney generals and whitewashed by military advocate generals – although all that is overt and known, reported and published, nobody is being held to account for it, neither in Israel nor abroad, at least so far.
We're approaching the moment, and perhaps it's already here, when the memory of the Holocaust won't stop the world from seeing Israel as it is. The moment when the historic crimes committed against our people will stop serving as our Iron Dome, protecting us from being held to account for crimes we are committing in the present against the nation with which we share the historical homeland.
Even if that moment is delayed, it's time for it to arrive. Israel will be without the Holocaust, by two of this year's torch lighters at the prestigious national Independence Day ceremony at Mt Herzl, hasbara genius Yoseph Haddad and the content creator Ella Travels.
Come on. Maybe we would do better to open our eyes and adopt a different attitude toward the Palestinians: to see them as equal human beings. That certainly a far better lesson for the Holocaust. Arendt would probably agree.
(Randomly, people were sharing this old 2014 ToI opinion piece that was later deleted - When Genocide is Permissible - that ends with: "I will conclude with a question for all the humanitarians out there. Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu clearly stated at the outset of this incursion that his objective is to restore a sustainable quiet for the citizens of Israel. We have already established that it is the responsibility of every government to ensure the safety and security of its people. If political leaders and military experts determine that the only way to achieve its goal of sustaining quiet is through genocide is it then permissible to achieve those responsible goals? ")
Guardian: How ‘Zionist’ became a slur on the US left
The shift in opinions on Zionism has been particularly confusing for many Jewish Americans. Though 58% of Jewish Americans describe themselves as Zionist, according to a 2022 survey conducted by Carleton University political scientist Mira Sucharov, the term means vastly different things to different people. A majority see Zionism as signifying a connection to Israel (about 70%), and about just as many view it as a belief in Israel as a Jewish and democratic state (72%), while a small minority describe it as “privileging Jewish rights over non-Jewish rights in Israel” (10%). Recent polling of Americans more broadly shows that many are unfamiliar with the term.
But for Palestinians, the notion that there’s a version of Zionism under which they can live in dignity is contradicted by history, because Zionism underpins the policies that drove their mass displacement from what became Israel in 1948 and has continued to displace them since. “When people think of Zionism now, they look at Gaza,” Saree Makdisi, a professor of English and comparative literature at the University of California at Los Angeles (UCLA), said. “This is what it means: that you want to have an ethnically exclusive state,” he said. “It’s ugly.”
Arguably for the first time, a Palestinian perspective on Zionism is taking center stage in mainstream discourse. “A lot more young people, including young Jews, are listening to their Palestinian friends and classmates who are saying: ‘This is what Zionism means to us,’” said Simone Zimmerman, the media director of Diaspora Alliance, an international organization focused on combating antisemitism and its weaponization. This explains how terms like “ethnostate”, “Jewish supremacy” and “settler-colonialism” have become central to the protests.
(...) Though only a small portion of Jewish Americans see Zionism as “privileging Jewish rights over non-Jewish rights in Israel”, Palestinians, including citizens of Israel, live a very different reality. This has put liberal Zionists in America in a tenuous position. Under ever more extreme right-wing Israeli governments, the long-simmering tensions between a Jewish and a democratic state have come to a boiling point. “The painful truth is that the project to which liberal Zionists like myself have devoted ourselves for decades – a state for Palestinians separated from a state for Jews – has failed,” Peter Beinart wrote in 2020. “It is time for liberal Zionists to abandon the goal of Jewish–Palestinian separation and embrace the goal of Jewish–Palestinian equality.”
Beinart now describes himself as a cultural Zionist, drawing upon debates in the 1940s that held out the possibility of a binational state that also supported a growth of Jewish and Hebrew culture in Mandatory Palestine. But a version of Zionism in practice that doesn’t favor Jewish interests has yet to materialize, and it’s not clear what it would look like.
Can Israel be separated from Zionism? “In principle, nobody has an objection to the Jewish people having a state,” Makdisi, of UCLA, said. “The problem is, where do they choose to have this state? And under what circumstances, and who is being asked to pay the price for it?”
“Jewish people don’t have a right that overrides the Palestinian people’s rights,” he continued.
The rhetoric common on the left today is also perhaps part of a more maximalist shift toward Palestinian liberation. Language of “resistance” has figured prominently in the anti-war protests, in contrast to an earlier emphasis on the co-existence of Israeli Jews and Palestinians.
Many of the protesters believe that a binational state with equal rights for Palestinians is the only way forward. “People have come to the conclusion that reform has not worked and radical action is the solution to make change for a just and peaceful world,” Allie Ryave, a Harvard Law School student protesting in the university’s encampment, said.
Many American Jews feel under attack by the attention on Zionism right now. They may identify with a range of paradigms – secular Zionism, religious Zionism, labor Zionism, liberal Zionism or other forms of Jewish nationalism – now collapsed into a single derisive word.
But Palestinian scholars say the Zionism that the protest movement has put at the center is simply the state of Israel’s overt ideology, which asserts the dominance of Jews over the land. “Zionism as practiced is not an abstraction,” Makdisi said. “It happened in the land of Palestine. It happened at the expense – and it’s happening at the expense – of the Palestinian people.”
At Harvard University’s protest encampment in Cambridge, Massachusetts, sophomore Violet Barron said that she defers to her Palestinian classmates and peers in thinking through these complex issues. “It took watching the scale of devastation in Gaza to understand what a staunch belief in Zionism can justify,” she said.
The Nation (piece by Omer Bertov): Antisemitism, Then and Now: A Guide for the Perplexed
Israel was supposed to solve the “Jewish question” once and for all. A state where the Jews would enjoy sovereignty, security, and prosperity, where they would become part of the international community as equal partners, and where they would “normalize” their existence by being no longer a people of luftmenschen engaging in “air businesses” such as peddling and money exchange, disconnected from the soil on which they lived, but become farmers and soldiers, policemen and construction workers, a new breed of Jews, healthy in body and spirit. In other words, “sabras.”
In fact, Israel never solved the problems that led to its birth. Having undone two millennia of exile, as Zionism would have it, Israel never managed to normalize Jewish existence. Having sought to become a Jewish majority state at any price, it paid the price of creating a vast Palestinian refugee problem that it still refuses to address. Having enjoyed a Jewish majority for the first two decades of its existence, its greed for additional territory transformed it after 1967 into a country half of whose population are Palestinians, none of them with equal rights—most of them with no rights at all. Having sought to provide a secure home for Jews around the world, it has become the most unsafe spot for Jews on the globe. Having claimed to be the final answer to antisemitism, Israel is now the best excuse for antisemites around the globe, a nation whose addiction to violence and oppression, reliance on great powers and financial clout, and constant harping on the horrors of the Holocaust as an excuse for untethered violence against Palestinians are making even its erstwhile supporters shrink from it in discomfort, not to say horror and disgust.
Anyway, back to the light unto the nations, not just about it - DCIP: Israeli forces physically assault and strangle 14-year-old Palestinian child detainee
“We felt very afraid and ran away, but the military vehicles chased us, and one of the military jeeps almost ran me over. I had to stop running, while my friends managed to escape and disappear,” Majd told DCIP. “Around 10 soldiers exited the two military vehicles, pointing their guns at me and started physically assaulting me for 30 minutes.”
“I was screaming and crying in fear and pain. They cuffed my hands behind my back with a single plastic tie, and I was blindfolded, thrown inside a military vehicle,” Majd said, and added that two soldiers assaulted him inside the vehicle for about 10 minutes.
Despite the reason for detention, detained children are protected by several fundamental guarantees in international human rights and humanitarian law, ensuring their right to life, freedom from arrest, and protection against torture, cruel and ill-treatment.
“One of them put his boot on my mouth while stomping on my chest with his other boot,” Majd said.
The military vehicle stopped at an Israeli military checkpoint located at the northern entrance to Azzoun. Majd was taken out of the vehicle, forced to stand still and a soldier repeatedly assaulted him with the stock of his rifle on the chest, head, and waist while directing insults at him.
“I was begging him to stop hitting me but to no avail. He then wrapped his hands around my neck, pressed with all his strength, and said to me in Arabic, ‘I'll kill you by strangulation.’" Majd passed out and regained consciousness around 5 p.m. and found himself in a room, lying on the ground and surrounded by a soldier, a cat, and a military dog.
“I felt really scared, mostly because the sounds made by the dog were terrifying. I started screaming out of fear because the cat scratched my face many times,” Majd told DCIP. “The soldier said in Arabic, 'I will let the dog eat you.'"
Israeli forces continued torturing Majd until around 2 a.m, slamming his head against a wall several times, causing him to collapse and ask for water, but his request was rejected and they forced him to remain silent.
Israeli forces transferred him to Emmanuel Police Station for interrogation at 3:30 a.m where his tie and blindfold were removed. The interrogator accused him of throwing stones at Israeli military vehicles and then allegedly subjected the boy to physical violence for two hours, forced him to sign an electronic screen with an electronic pen, and tied his hands and blindfolded again, according to documentation collected by DCIP.
Guardian: Israeli abuse of jailed Palestinian leader Marwan Barghouti ‘amounts to torture’
Marwan Barghouti spends his days huddled in a cramped, dark, solitary cell, with no way to tend to his wounds, and a shoulder injury from being dragged with his hands cuffed behind his back.
Barghouti holds almost mythic status within Palestinian politics, seen as a figure whose potential to unify different factions has only grown during his 24 years in prison.
The books, newspapers and television that he used to be able to access have been gone since last October, along with any former cellmates. The lights that flicker in his cell each evening are intended to make sleep near impossible.
“Mentally he’s a very strong person, but physically his condition is deteriorating, you can see it. He’s struggling to see out of his right eye, as a result of one of the assaults,” said his lawyer Igal Dotan, who visited Barghouti in Israel’s Megiddo prison two months ago. “He has lost weight – he doesn’t look good. You wouldn’t recognise him if you compare his current appearance with the famous photos of him,” he said.
(...) Every former detainee began their descriptions of detention with the lack of food, and their drastic weight loss in prison. Menus produced by the Israeli prison service show that Palestinian prisoners, referred to as “security prisoners” in the documentation, are given a different diet to other prisoners, one without meat or an ability to buy extra food from the canteen.
In his living room in Ramallah, 74-year-old activist Omar Assaf, who was released in late April, held up a small plastic cup of water, using his thumb to mark the halfway point to show how little rice he was given each day. “What I witnessed the past six months was unprecedented. There is no comparison to what it was like before,” he said. Assaf was arrested in a raid last October and held in Ofer prison in the West Bank without charge, although he laughed recalling Israeli officials accusing him of allegiance to Hamas due to his beard, despite his leftwing politics.
“The first night I got to Ofer prison, I met people with obvious signs of beatings – you could see the bruises, other people had black eyes,” he said. “Sometimes the guards would throw tear gas inside the cells, or fire rubber bullets at close range. I saw people being dragged along the floor by their handcuffs and beaten.”
Prisoners wounded with rubber bullets, he added, received no treatment for their lacerations. But none of this compared to how detainees from Gaza in an adjacent section were treated, he added. “We could hear them being attacked with dogs. We heard them screaming,” he said.
posted by cendawanita at 5:09 PM on May 19 [9 favorites]
Holy shit, the ICC actually did it. Karim Khan has applied for arrest warrants for Sinwar, Haniyeh, Al-Masri, Netanyahu, and Gallant.
As a reminder, just two weeks ago a group of US senators threatened not only Khan but his employees and his family if he took this action against any Israeli officials.
posted by adrienneleigh at 4:13 AM on May 20 [16 favorites]
As a reminder, just two weeks ago a group of US senators threatened not only Khan but his employees and his family if he took this action against any Israeli officials.
posted by adrienneleigh at 4:13 AM on May 20 [16 favorites]
Some of that language is fucking *fire*.
I specifically underlined that starvation as a method of war and the denial of humanitarian relief constitute Rome Statute offences. I could not have been clearer.posted by corb at 5:09 AM on May 20 [16 favorites]
As I also repeatedly underlined in my public statements, those who do not comply with the law should not complain later when my Office takes action. That day has come.
“ICC Indictments Deepen The Crisis of The ‘Rules-Based International Order,’” Spencer Ackerman, FOREVER WARS, 20 May 2024
posted by ob1quixote at 9:15 AM on May 20 [4 favorites]
posted by ob1quixote at 9:15 AM on May 20 [4 favorites]
(lmao I am in transit and literally the first I saw of this upon landing is from A A Olomi's Muslim astrology newsletter)
posted by cendawanita at 9:24 AM on May 20 [2 favorites]
posted by cendawanita at 9:24 AM on May 20 [2 favorites]
The Biden Admin is of course now shitting all over the ICC and rejecting the announcement
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 9:54 AM on May 20 [3 favorites]
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 9:54 AM on May 20 [3 favorites]
Need to paste Karim Khan's face on that Mean Girls "You Don't Even Go Here" meme as a standby response.
(Yes reminder, USA does not ratify nor recognise the Rome statute)
posted by cendawanita at 10:22 AM on May 20 [3 favorites]
(Yes reminder, USA does not ratify nor recognise the Rome statute)
posted by cendawanita at 10:22 AM on May 20 [3 favorites]
I think Israel is a signatory to the ICC. I wonder what local Israeli human rights groups will do in terms of trying to take action in the courts or if they can.
I predict the next step for Israel will be to challenge the warrant before the judges and try to get it tossed. No doubt the US and others will put a lot of pressure on the judges to drop it or suspend it.
posted by interogative mood at 11:11 AM on May 20
I predict the next step for Israel will be to challenge the warrant before the judges and try to get it tossed. No doubt the US and others will put a lot of pressure on the judges to drop it or suspend it.
posted by interogative mood at 11:11 AM on May 20
interogative mood said, "I think Israel is a signatory to the ICC."
I don't think this is right. From Al Jazeera's live updates:
War crime arrest warrants sought. What’s next?
The ICC prosecutor must request the warrants from a pre-trial panel of three judges who take on average two months to consider the evidence and determine if the proceedings may move forward.
Israel is not a member of The Hague-based court, and even if the arrest warrants are issued, Netanyahu and Gallant do not face any immediate risk of prosecution.
But Khan’s announcement deepens Israel’s isolation as it presses ahead with its devastating war on Gaza. The threat of arrest could make it difficult for the Israeli leaders to travel abroad.
Of the three Hamas leaders who face arrest warrants, two – Yahya Sinwar and Mohammed Deif – are in Gaza. But Ismail Haniyeh, the political head of Hamas, is based in Qatar and frequently travels across the region.
posted by i like crows very much at 11:54 AM on May 20 [3 favorites]
I don't think this is right. From Al Jazeera's live updates:
War crime arrest warrants sought. What’s next?
The ICC prosecutor must request the warrants from a pre-trial panel of three judges who take on average two months to consider the evidence and determine if the proceedings may move forward.
Israel is not a member of The Hague-based court, and even if the arrest warrants are issued, Netanyahu and Gallant do not face any immediate risk of prosecution.
But Khan’s announcement deepens Israel’s isolation as it presses ahead with its devastating war on Gaza. The threat of arrest could make it difficult for the Israeli leaders to travel abroad.
Of the three Hamas leaders who face arrest warrants, two – Yahya Sinwar and Mohammed Deif – are in Gaza. But Ismail Haniyeh, the political head of Hamas, is based in Qatar and frequently travels across the region.
posted by i like crows very much at 11:54 AM on May 20 [3 favorites]
Israel is not a signatory of the Rome Statute. Palestine is, which gives the ICC jurisdiction over war crimes committed in Palestinian territory (Gaza and the West Bank) by other state actors (such as Israel).
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 12:03 PM on May 20 [9 favorites]
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 12:03 PM on May 20 [9 favorites]
Not being party to it will make any legal challenge a risk for them as it may open the possibility of normative or de facto recognition (if this is something that's possible within this arena) but more straightforwardly they'll have to file as an ex-parte which may require an actual party country to represent them in court. Which I guess means Germany will probably develop a stomach ulcer if it was a person in the next week trying to square its obligations. Is UK a party? It's not like it's got any self-respect left in this arena.
posted by cendawanita at 12:27 PM on May 20 [5 favorites]
posted by cendawanita at 12:27 PM on May 20 [5 favorites]
The threat of arrest could make it difficult for the Israeli leaders to travel abroad.
Bibi can trade WFH tips with Putin. It's been pointed out that my country also had reservations and didn't ratify the same statute so you know... Technically Bibi can come over and stay here. I mean, can't be that bit of a leap for someone who just met Elise Stefanik and whose Diaspora Minister was at a Spanish far-right (Vox) rally. Cuddling antisemites doesn't seem to be a problem.
posted by cendawanita at 12:36 PM on May 20 [3 favorites]
Bibi can trade WFH tips with Putin. It's been pointed out that my country also had reservations and didn't ratify the same statute so you know... Technically Bibi can come over and stay here. I mean, can't be that bit of a leap for someone who just met Elise Stefanik and whose Diaspora Minister was at a Spanish far-right (Vox) rally. Cuddling antisemites doesn't seem to be a problem.
posted by cendawanita at 12:36 PM on May 20 [3 favorites]
I misread things. Like the United States they signed the ICC statute in December of 2000, but they never followed through with actually ratifying it. The result is that they are not members of the ICC.
posted by interogative mood at 12:40 PM on May 20 [1 favorite]
posted by interogative mood at 12:40 PM on May 20 [1 favorite]
Bush and Netanyahu made an agreement that they wouldn't honor the court's arrest warrants with regard to American or Israeli citizens resident in eachother's countries. Sanctions were previously imposed by Donald Trump on the ICC by the United States over its attempts to prosecute Americans over actions related to the war in Afghanistan. These sanctions were canceled by the Biden administration in April of 2021. The US also opposed the decision by the ICC to accept Palestine as a member state in 2015.
posted by interogative mood at 12:46 PM on May 20 [1 favorite]
posted by interogative mood at 12:46 PM on May 20 [1 favorite]
cendawanita said, "Which I guess means Germany will probably develop a stomach ulcer if it was a person in the next week trying to square its obligations."
Hehe. From Al Jazeera's updates:
Germany says respects ICC but that Israel has ‘right to defend itself’
Germany’s foreign ministry has said that Berlin respects the ICC’s independence and procedures like all other international courts.
But, it said, the simultaneous application for arrest warrants against Hamas leaders and Israeli officials has created a false impression of an equivalency.
It added that Israel has a right to defend itself in so long as international humanitarian law and its obligations apply.
posted by i like crows very much at 12:51 PM on May 20 [2 favorites]
Hehe. From Al Jazeera's updates:
Germany says respects ICC but that Israel has ‘right to defend itself’
Germany’s foreign ministry has said that Berlin respects the ICC’s independence and procedures like all other international courts.
But, it said, the simultaneous application for arrest warrants against Hamas leaders and Israeli officials has created a false impression of an equivalency.
It added that Israel has a right to defend itself in so long as international humanitarian law and its obligations apply.
posted by i like crows very much at 12:51 PM on May 20 [2 favorites]
I'm under the perhaps incorrect impression that this isn't actually the arrest warrant, but a request for an arrest warrant. Germany, and other countries have no obligations until the judges hold a hearing and formally issue warrants. According to this Reuters article that process can take months.. I predict a lot of overt and behind the scenes pressure for the judges to sit on this for as long as possible.
posted by interogative mood at 1:05 PM on May 20 [1 favorite]
posted by interogative mood at 1:05 PM on May 20 [1 favorite]
From this Kjell Anderson thread: Unlike the Ukraine situation, the Prosecutor has chosen to publicize this request, rather than waiting for the warrants to be approved - a process that could take months.
The Prosecutor is likely hoping that his request will have an immediate effect. He is also anticipating inevitable blowback, by doing immediate press, as well as taking the unusual step of assembling a panel of outside experts to affirm his decision.
The panel has been reviewing evidence for months, and they emphasize that the reasons for the conflict must be separated from the conduct of hostilities. This is the first time the OTP has used such a panel and it is being criticized by some ICC insiders.
The panel was presumably convened to head off any critique that the Prosecutor was acting capriciously or in a partial manner. The Court will ultimately decide if the charges have merit.
Khan is likely to face harsh critique from Israel and its allies in the coming days, though the Times of Israel once reported that Khan was "Israel's preferred candidate."
The panel's op-ed is in FT: Why we support ICC prosecutions for crimes in Israel and Gaza -
From Lord Justice Fulford, Judge Theodor Meron CMG, Amal Clooney, Danny Friedman KC, Baroness Helena Kennedy LT KC, Elizabeth Wilmshurst CMG KC
posted by cendawanita at 3:36 PM on May 20 [4 favorites]
The Prosecutor is likely hoping that his request will have an immediate effect. He is also anticipating inevitable blowback, by doing immediate press, as well as taking the unusual step of assembling a panel of outside experts to affirm his decision.
The panel has been reviewing evidence for months, and they emphasize that the reasons for the conflict must be separated from the conduct of hostilities. This is the first time the OTP has used such a panel and it is being criticized by some ICC insiders.
The panel was presumably convened to head off any critique that the Prosecutor was acting capriciously or in a partial manner. The Court will ultimately decide if the charges have merit.
Khan is likely to face harsh critique from Israel and its allies in the coming days, though the Times of Israel once reported that Khan was "Israel's preferred candidate."
The panel's op-ed is in FT: Why we support ICC prosecutions for crimes in Israel and Gaza -
From Lord Justice Fulford, Judge Theodor Meron CMG, Amal Clooney, Danny Friedman KC, Baroness Helena Kennedy LT KC, Elizabeth Wilmshurst CMG KC
posted by cendawanita at 3:36 PM on May 20 [4 favorites]
Here is a story about kids trying to be kids and play games under horrible circumstances. The Gaza Chess club.
posted by interogative mood at 5:11 PM on May 20 [2 favorites]
posted by interogative mood at 5:11 PM on May 20 [2 favorites]
Mouin Rabbani points out, over on Twitter:
Israel, which together with the US and UK served as a chief sponsor of Karim Khan's campaign to become ICC prosecutor, now denounces him as "among the great antisemites of modern times".
posted by adrienneleigh at 7:09 PM on May 20 [5 favorites]
Israel, which together with the US and UK served as a chief sponsor of Karim Khan's campaign to become ICC prosecutor, now denounces him as "among the great antisemites of modern times".
posted by adrienneleigh at 7:09 PM on May 20 [5 favorites]
And to think just a few month ago the Palestine Chronicle was writing attack pieces about Khan.
posted by interogative mood at 11:02 PM on May 20 [1 favorite]
posted by interogative mood at 11:02 PM on May 20 [1 favorite]
I mean, he's been fucking around for months and he still is only charging two Israelis, so a lot of the criticism seems pretty warranted to me!
posted by adrienneleigh at 11:37 PM on May 20 [6 favorites]
posted by adrienneleigh at 11:37 PM on May 20 [6 favorites]
I mean, so far he hasn't even charged Itamar Ben-Gvir, who is an actual literal fucking terrorist and absolutely responsible for a bunch of the current war-criming!
posted by adrienneleigh at 1:28 AM on May 21 [6 favorites]
posted by adrienneleigh at 1:28 AM on May 21 [6 favorites]
According to this 'Nuts & Bolts' analysis of the announcement and the corresponding expert panel report (pdf), they are starting with starvation crimes:
There are many reasons to start with starvation crimes: In addition to the robust evidence of starvation methods in Gaza and the clear implication of those at the top of the Israeli government in that violation, the devastating scale and gravity of the starvation crime in this context has made it impossible to ignore. The Prosecutor has repeatedly offered Israeli officials the opportunity to reverse course on this practice. They have failed to seize that opportunity. Other crimes, such as those related to wanton destruction, detainee mistreatment, or the conduct of hostilities may be included in future requests.An early reaction to this announcement by Nimer Sultany (twitter thread):
Initial comments on the ICC prosecutor request to issue arrest warrants:posted by i like crows very much at 1:54 AM on May 21 [6 favorites]
1. It is surprising that the request names 2 Israelis but 3 Palestinians, and charges the Palestinians with 8 counts but the Israelis with 7 only. Although the Prosecutor says he "seeks to charge two of those most responsible", and the investigation is ongoing, no one can ignore the asymmetry in the infliction of violence, and the ferocity and length in which Israeli leaders committed their crimes. #Bothsideism ?
2. The charges against Hamas, but not Israel, include Torture; Cruel treatment as a war crime; and Outrages upon personal dignity. This is surprising given Israel has treated thousands of Palestinian detainees and prisoners, including 27+ who died in custody.
3. The assessment of the conflict between Hamas/ Palestine and Israel by the Prosecutor in his announcement makes no mention of the occupation.*
4. The Prosecutor says "Israel, like all States, has a right to take action to defend its population" - this formulation seems to avoid "self-defence" but again ignores occupation
5. Although there is an obvious urgency from crimes since October, the ICC Prosecutor says nothing regarding the ongoing and pre-October allegations against Israeli leaders with respect to settlements and apartheid.
6. The Prosecutor makes no mention of genocide, despite the credible allegations in the ICJ, and instead is content with the crimes of starvation and extermination. But these allegations of of violations of IHL may establish Genocide as well.
* It should be mentioned however that the Panel Report accompanying the Prosecutor statement does mention occupation
Mod note: One comment has been removed. Please avoid copying and pasting entire articles, thanks!
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 6:06 AM on May 21
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 6:06 AM on May 21
Just woke up and:
Israeli officials seize AP equipment and take down live shot of Gaza, citing new media law, which prohibits sharing images with Al-Jazeera: The Qatari satellite channel is among thousands of clients that receive live video feeds from the AP and other news organizations. The AP denounced the move.
“The Associated Press decries in the strongest terms the actions of the Israeli government to shut down our longstanding live feed showing a view into Gaza and seize AP equipment,” said Lauren Easton, vice president of corporate communications at the news organization. “The shutdown was not based on the content of the feed but rather an abusive use by the Israeli government of the country’s new foreign broadcaster law. We urge the Israeli authorities to return our equipment and enable us to reinstate our live feed immediately so we can continue to provide this important visual journalism to thousands of media outlets around the world.”
Israeli soldiers and police are tipping off the groups that attack Gaza aid trucks: Yazid al-Zoubi, 26, a Palestinian lorry driver who was attacked by the protesters last week at Tarqumiya checkpoint, said: “There is full cooperation between the settlers and the army. We are shocked and surprised that the army did not provide us with any kind of protection. Even though they were present and watching what was happening. The army was at the service of the settlers.”
Two soldiers from Israel’s Home Front Command refused an order to evacuate protesters who blocked aid trucks in the Makhash area last week, according to the IDF. One of them was sentenced to 20 days in prison, Israel’s national broadcaster, Kan, reported.
Patrick Leahy writes for WaPo (gift link): Unlike for most countries, U.S. weapons, ammunition and other aid is provided to Israeli security forces in bulk rather than to specific units. The secretary of state is therefore required to regularly inform Israel of any security force unit ineligible for U.S. aid due to having committed a gross violation of human rights, and the Israeli government is obligated to comply with that prohibition.
Since the Leahy law was passed, not a single Israeli security force unit has been deemed ineligible for U.S. aid, despite repeated, credible reports of gross violations of human rights and a pattern of failing to appropriately punish Israeli soldiers and police who violate the rights of Palestinians.
Algeria urges UNSC investigation of Israel's genocide in Gaza: Algeria has requested the UN Security Council to send an investigative mission to ascertain the facts of the genocide in the Gaza Strip.
"Regarding the situation in the Middle East, including Palestine, we urge the Security Council to act urgently to stop the genocide crimes in Gaza," said Nasim Kouaoui, the Algerian envoy to the United Nations, during an open session of the Security Council on Monday.
Algeria and Slovenia requested the session to discuss developments in Rafah in the southern Gaza Strip.
posted by toastyk at 6:48 AM on May 21 [12 favorites]
Israeli officials seize AP equipment and take down live shot of Gaza, citing new media law, which prohibits sharing images with Al-Jazeera: The Qatari satellite channel is among thousands of clients that receive live video feeds from the AP and other news organizations. The AP denounced the move.
“The Associated Press decries in the strongest terms the actions of the Israeli government to shut down our longstanding live feed showing a view into Gaza and seize AP equipment,” said Lauren Easton, vice president of corporate communications at the news organization. “The shutdown was not based on the content of the feed but rather an abusive use by the Israeli government of the country’s new foreign broadcaster law. We urge the Israeli authorities to return our equipment and enable us to reinstate our live feed immediately so we can continue to provide this important visual journalism to thousands of media outlets around the world.”
Israeli soldiers and police are tipping off the groups that attack Gaza aid trucks: Yazid al-Zoubi, 26, a Palestinian lorry driver who was attacked by the protesters last week at Tarqumiya checkpoint, said: “There is full cooperation between the settlers and the army. We are shocked and surprised that the army did not provide us with any kind of protection. Even though they were present and watching what was happening. The army was at the service of the settlers.”
Two soldiers from Israel’s Home Front Command refused an order to evacuate protesters who blocked aid trucks in the Makhash area last week, according to the IDF. One of them was sentenced to 20 days in prison, Israel’s national broadcaster, Kan, reported.
Patrick Leahy writes for WaPo (gift link): Unlike for most countries, U.S. weapons, ammunition and other aid is provided to Israeli security forces in bulk rather than to specific units. The secretary of state is therefore required to regularly inform Israel of any security force unit ineligible for U.S. aid due to having committed a gross violation of human rights, and the Israeli government is obligated to comply with that prohibition.
Since the Leahy law was passed, not a single Israeli security force unit has been deemed ineligible for U.S. aid, despite repeated, credible reports of gross violations of human rights and a pattern of failing to appropriately punish Israeli soldiers and police who violate the rights of Palestinians.
Algeria urges UNSC investigation of Israel's genocide in Gaza: Algeria has requested the UN Security Council to send an investigative mission to ascertain the facts of the genocide in the Gaza Strip.
"Regarding the situation in the Middle East, including Palestine, we urge the Security Council to act urgently to stop the genocide crimes in Gaza," said Nasim Kouaoui, the Algerian envoy to the United Nations, during an open session of the Security Council on Monday.
Algeria and Slovenia requested the session to discuss developments in Rafah in the southern Gaza Strip.
posted by toastyk at 6:48 AM on May 21 [12 favorites]
Please avoid copying and pasting entire articles, thanks
Noted. It's a short statement posted behind an FT paywall and I don't have a gift link to share so I thought it would be helpful.
posted by cendawanita at 8:16 AM on May 21 [3 favorites]
Noted. It's a short statement posted behind an FT paywall and I don't have a gift link to share so I thought it would be helpful.
posted by cendawanita at 8:16 AM on May 21 [3 favorites]
An Israeli sniper killed a kid for literally no reason (not that there's ever a reason, but i mean he wasn't doing anything that could have even been construed as threatening; he was playing on his bike) in the West Bank again today. (Twitter link with pic; CW on the pic).
They really have just gone full-on genocidal, with absolutely no brakes. If the US doesn't make this stop, we all deserve to die.
posted by adrienneleigh at 11:10 AM on May 21 [4 favorites]
They really have just gone full-on genocidal, with absolutely no brakes. If the US doesn't make this stop, we all deserve to die.
posted by adrienneleigh at 11:10 AM on May 21 [4 favorites]
The BBC has more on this story. Unclear if shot by a sniper or killed in the crossfire/stray bullet during a gun battle as the IDF/ISF conducted a raid in Jenin on Tuesday. A total of 7 Palestinians were killed and 9 injured. Supposedly 5 of those killed were militants and two bystanders — the child and a doctor on his way to work.
The depressing thing is that this isn’t the first time this has happened in Jenin.
posted by interogative mood at 1:28 PM on May 21
The depressing thing is that this isn’t the first time this has happened in Jenin.
posted by interogative mood at 1:28 PM on May 21
cendawanita said, "Noted. It's a short statement posted behind an FT paywall and I don't have a gift link to share so I thought it would be helpful."
I think this link should work:
Why we support ICC prosecutions for crimes in Israel and Gaza by the expert panel
posted by i like crows very much at 1:51 PM on May 21 [5 favorites]
I think this link should work:
Why we support ICC prosecutions for crimes in Israel and Gaza by the expert panel
posted by i like crows very much at 1:51 PM on May 21 [5 favorites]
Supposedly 5 of those killed were militants
Sorry, but this is utter and complete bullshit, Israel's definition of "militant" is "any male over the age of 15".
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 2:18 PM on May 21 [13 favorites]
Sorry, but this is utter and complete bullshit, Israel's definition of "militant" is "any male over the age of 15".
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 2:18 PM on May 21 [13 favorites]
Also i don't fucking care whether or not they were "militants" because the IOF shouldn't be randomly invading refugee camps to begin with!
posted by adrienneleigh at 2:56 PM on May 21 [9 favorites]
posted by adrienneleigh at 2:56 PM on May 21 [9 favorites]
Israel's definition of "militant" is "any male over the age of 15".
That's their definition for public consumption. In practice it's more like "any male over the age of 8".
posted by adrienneleigh at 3:02 PM on May 21 [7 favorites]
That's their definition for public consumption. In practice it's more like "any male over the age of 8".
posted by adrienneleigh at 3:02 PM on May 21 [7 favorites]
The UN has halted all aid distribution in Rafah after running out of supplies.
Also, i fucking told you so: the Pentagon press secretary says "I do not believe" any of the aid from the expensive showy pier has actually made it to any Palestinian citizen. (Twitter link with video clip)
Also, here is a Twitter thread about the pier from Jeremy Konyndyk (president of Refugees International and former head of disaster relief for USAID). I'm going to reproduce it in full below (it's a short thread) for those of you not on bird hell.
Also, i fucking told you so: the Pentagon press secretary says "I do not believe" any of the aid from the expensive showy pier has actually made it to any Palestinian citizen. (Twitter link with video clip)
Also, here is a Twitter thread about the pier from Jeremy Konyndyk (president of Refugees International and former head of disaster relief for USAID). I'm going to reproduce it in full below (it's a short thread) for those of you not on bird hell.
The pier doesn't solve the major bottleneck in Gaza: aid access for last-mile delivery.posted by adrienneleigh at 7:06 PM on May 21 [15 favorites]
"How many trucks got in" is the wrong question.
The right questions: Who will distribute the aid? Can they do so without being bombed? Are the allowed to access all people in need? ....
———
Are the roads passable? Are movement permissions being granted? Can aid groups safely access their warehouses? Do they have the fuel to run their their trucks?
Right now the answer to most/all of these questions is frequently no. The Rafah operation is making it much worse.
———
Humanitarian operations are at a point of near-collapse.
@WFP has suspended operations in Rafah due to the impediments created by the IDF offensive there. Rafah had been key hub for aid operations in most of Gaza; that's now falling apart.
———
I've taken some flak here for describing the pier as humanitarian theater. I stand by it.
The pier has sucked up a huge amount of diplomatic and political energy at huge financial cost - yet has delivered little and is irrelevant to the fundamental last-mile access impediments.
———
Last-mile access is the determining factor for reversing the famine. The main impediments to it flow primarily from how the IDF is conducting the war - as the Rafah border closure again demonstrates.
This is why, simply as an operational matter, a cease-fire is the only option.
Meanwhile the US is prepared to burn down the "rules-based international order" to protect Israel by imposing sanctions on the ICC.
And here is Karim Khan on CNN saying that an unnamed "senior elected leader" (presumably someone like Sunak, Scholz, or Macron) told him "the ICC is for Africa and thugs like Putin, not Israel".
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 7:43 PM on May 21 [7 favorites]
And here is Karim Khan on CNN saying that an unnamed "senior elected leader" (presumably someone like Sunak, Scholz, or Macron) told him "the ICC is for Africa and thugs like Putin, not Israel".
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 7:43 PM on May 21 [7 favorites]
In better news, Ireland plans to officially recognize Palestine as a state tomorrow; apparently at least two other EU nations will be following suit in the coming days.
Israel, of course, is now calling Ireland a "pawn in the hands of Iran and Hamas" (twitter link from Prem Thakker, with video clip from the Israeli Foreign Ministry.)
posted by adrienneleigh at 7:58 PM on May 21 [8 favorites]
Israel, of course, is now calling Ireland a "pawn in the hands of Iran and Hamas" (twitter link from Prem Thakker, with video clip from the Israeli Foreign Ministry.)
posted by adrienneleigh at 7:58 PM on May 21 [8 favorites]
Meanwhile the US is prepared to burn down the "rules-based international order"
To be fair, while the US has always been happy for others to assume that the rules upon which its international order are based have something to do with international humanitarian law, its failure to ratify the ICC and its own Hague Invasion Act have long revealed that they don't.
The actual rules-based international order, as revealed by decades of US policy, is this: US oil and arms corporations make the rules and nations take the orders, because fuck you that's why.
The US's ongoing response to Israel's ongoing genocide shows that top-level US policymakers do not consider the actual rules-based international order to be in any danger of burning down. I hope for the world's sake that they're wrong. It's about time the assumed order was given a fair shake.
posted by flabdablet at 8:40 PM on May 21 [13 favorites]
To be fair, while the US has always been happy for others to assume that the rules upon which its international order are based have something to do with international humanitarian law, its failure to ratify the ICC and its own Hague Invasion Act have long revealed that they don't.
The actual rules-based international order, as revealed by decades of US policy, is this: US oil and arms corporations make the rules and nations take the orders, because fuck you that's why.
The US's ongoing response to Israel's ongoing genocide shows that top-level US policymakers do not consider the actual rules-based international order to be in any danger of burning down. I hope for the world's sake that they're wrong. It's about time the assumed order was given a fair shake.
posted by flabdablet at 8:40 PM on May 21 [13 favorites]
I really want to be very clear that everyone with a fucking clue knew this would be the outcome of the stupid fucking pier, and that i'm not even a little bit sorry to say "i told you so" under these circumstances.
posted by adrienneleigh at 9:39 PM on May 21 [12 favorites]
posted by adrienneleigh at 9:39 PM on May 21 [12 favorites]
It's almost as if the recent round of resignations from the US defence establishment on moral grounds has left it without anybody capable of distinguishing plausible bullshit from flagrantly obvious bullshit.
posted by flabdablet at 11:48 PM on May 21 [6 favorites]
posted by flabdablet at 11:48 PM on May 21 [6 favorites]
flabdablet: and a few of the frequent participants in these threads have the same problem, in spades!
posted by adrienneleigh at 12:26 AM on May 22 [3 favorites]
posted by adrienneleigh at 12:26 AM on May 22 [3 favorites]
How pleasant the wider world would be if the best and most effective response to all forms of bad-faith discourse was to flag it and move on.
posted by flabdablet at 1:18 AM on May 22 [3 favorites]
posted by flabdablet at 1:18 AM on May 22 [3 favorites]
When I see political divides like the ones that are happening on this thread—divides between Israel sympathizers, for lack of a better word, and people who see what's happening in Gaza as a war crime and a genocide—I think of a certain passage from Roberto Bolaño's 2666, which has haunted me ever since I first read it.
This passage was originally about the mass murders of women in Ciudad Juárez: hundreds killed across a decade, none of which have ever been pinned to a single killer or killers. In 2666, a criminologist is talking to a student of his, explaining how exactly hundreds of people can be murdered without it sending ripples through society at large:
It's horrifying when a handful of real people die; when hundreds are mowed down by gunfire, it's an open wound on the face of the planet. But those hospitals in Gaza aren't real. Those mutilated children are merely an abstract consequence. Everybody knows that war is hell. Nobody likes war. But—shrug!—sometimes war has to happen, especially when someone commits an atrocity like 10/7.
God, it's terrible that Israel accidentally killed those Americans who were trying to do a nice thing for those Gazans, isn't it? So saintly, those Americans. So horrific, their deaths. But Israel says it was an accident, and we believe Israel, because nobody in Society would ever murder other people in Society. Actual murder—unlike all those mass graves that Israeli citizens throw parties to celebrate—is the domain of beasts, not men. Hamas is beastly. Israelis are Men.
Hamas is an abstraction, too. Hamas is defined solely by the horrible things it does to people living in Society. There isn't a reason that Hamas exists: they are truly demonic, because anything that wantonly hurts real people must be demonic. There can be no other explanation. And the fact that Palestinians have permitted Hamas to exist too is proof that Palestinians, too, are beasts. Though if they were meek and quiet and properly domestic, they still wouldn't be real people. They wouldn't be anything at all. Because we'd never think of them. We only notice them when they complain about Israel, which is abstractly sad, up until their complaints consist of throwing rocks at police, at which point Israeli cops gun them down, because they've become beasts once more.
This crosses the line into American citizenry, too. College students are presumed to belong to Society, up until they show sympathy for Gazans, at which point they're either puppets of Hamas or they're just bratty, unruly children looking for discipline. Their arrests are justified: when they grow up and re-enter Society, they'll agree about that, surely. If they get hurt, that's okay, because it means they'll remember their lesson. And journalists are part of Society so long as they're reporting on how brave and valiant Israel's efforts are, because that's free speech and freedom of press. Reporting sympathetically about Palestine isn't free speech: it's irresponsible lying. Nobody who does that should be considered a professional, and therefore nobody who does it deserves political protection.
The ICC is a noble institution that helps to make the world more just, unless it calls an Israeli politician a war criminal, in which case it's fomenting malignant disorder. The United Nations is an admirable political union, unless its members start recognizing Palestine as a state, which is practically endorsing terrorism. Because what matters, first and foremost, is the preservation of Society—and anything that dares besmirch the integrity of Society's members is a threat to everything orderly and good.
Israel doesn't want to have to commit genocide. It's not even genocide, really. It's just making sure that the non-people stay quiet. It's making sure we don't have to think about them. And if the non-people keep trying to be heard, eventually there's only one solution—a final solution, if you will—because you can only tell non-people to stop trying to be people so many times.
My pro-Zionist family members don't take glee in what's happening. They hate what's happening. They hate that Hamas made this happen. They hate that sooo many people are condemning Israel, because it's basically a kind of erasure: how could you possibly criticize Israel, didn't you see what Hamas did? I think I mentioned in an earlier thread that my cousin mentioned sending her son on Birthright during Passover dinner, and the fact that she could say a word like "birthright" out loud this year without flinching made my skin fucking crawl. But to her mind, it is her son's birthright: to see Israel, to learn about the beautiful history of the Jewish people, and to choose to live there, if he so desires. His living there doesn't have to displace Palestinians, in the sense that he wouldn't actively want Palestinians to have to be displaced. They'd only get displaced because, well, they're there, and he wants to be there, and they can't be there if he's gonna be there, and it's his birthright, and why do they act like that's so hard to understand? Who would question something this obvious, if not out of outright malice?
But this is not a new concept, where racism is concerned. It's why we talk about "structural" or "institutional" racism. It's why the idea of the "white moderate" was a thing for MLK. Racism does not mean that you actively hate a group of people. It just means that you don't really think of them as people. They're not part of Society. If you disapprove of outright hatred towards those people, it's not because the hatred is bad: it's because it's not genteel to think of those people whatsoever. And if someone does hate those people, if they celebrate those people dying, if they kill those people themselves... well, your sympathies are still with the person harboring genocidal hatred. Their hatred is bad table manners, but they're still people. It's not even a choice between them and the folks they hate, because the folks they hate aren't really people. They're not Society. Nothing is really awful unless it's happening to us.
posted by Tom Hanks Cannot Be Trusted at 6:53 AM on May 22 [42 favorites]
This passage was originally about the mass murders of women in Ciudad Juárez: hundreds killed across a decade, none of which have ever been pinned to a single killer or killers. In 2666, a criminologist is talking to a student of his, explaining how exactly hundreds of people can be murdered without it sending ripples through society at large:
Everything changes, you say. Of course everything changes, but not the archetypes of crime, not any more than human nature changes. Maybe it's because polite society was so small back then. I'm talking about the nineteenth century, eighteenth century, seventeenth century. No doubt about it, society was small. Most human beings existed on the outer fringes of society. In the seventeenth century, for example, at least twenty percent of the merchandise on every slave ship died. By that I mean the dark-skinned people who were being transported for sale, to Virginia, say. And that didn't get anyone upset or make headlines in the Virginia papers or make anyone go out and call for the ship captain to be hanged. But if a plantation owner went crazy and killed his neighbor and then went galloping back home, dismounted, and promptly killed his wife, two deaths in total, Virginia society spent the next six months in fear, and the legend of the murderer on horseback might linger for generations. Or look at the French. During the Paris Commune of 1871, thousands of people were killed and no one batted an eye. Around the same time a knife sharpener killed his wife and his elderly mother and then he was shot and killed by the police. The story didn't just make all the French newspapers, it was written up in papers across Europe, and even got a mention in the New York Examiner. How come? The ones killed in the Commune weren't part of society, the dark-skinned people who died on the ship weren't part of society, whereas the woman killed in a French provincial capital and the murderer on horseback in Virginia were. What happened to them could be written, you might say, it was legible. That said, words back then were mostly used in the art of avoidance, not of revelation. Maybe they revealed something all the same. I couldn't tell you.That question—who is considered part of "society?"—defines the discourse around wholesale slaughter of peoples. I don't think that Joe Biden is a racist or anti-Muslim in the sense that he's secretly gleeful about all those Palestinian kids getting murdered. I think that, in some abstract way, he's horrified and haunted by it. But that's just it: the Palestinians are an abstraction to him, rather than real people—whereas the Israelis who were killed on October 7 were real.
It's horrifying when a handful of real people die; when hundreds are mowed down by gunfire, it's an open wound on the face of the planet. But those hospitals in Gaza aren't real. Those mutilated children are merely an abstract consequence. Everybody knows that war is hell. Nobody likes war. But—shrug!—sometimes war has to happen, especially when someone commits an atrocity like 10/7.
God, it's terrible that Israel accidentally killed those Americans who were trying to do a nice thing for those Gazans, isn't it? So saintly, those Americans. So horrific, their deaths. But Israel says it was an accident, and we believe Israel, because nobody in Society would ever murder other people in Society. Actual murder—unlike all those mass graves that Israeli citizens throw parties to celebrate—is the domain of beasts, not men. Hamas is beastly. Israelis are Men.
Hamas is an abstraction, too. Hamas is defined solely by the horrible things it does to people living in Society. There isn't a reason that Hamas exists: they are truly demonic, because anything that wantonly hurts real people must be demonic. There can be no other explanation. And the fact that Palestinians have permitted Hamas to exist too is proof that Palestinians, too, are beasts. Though if they were meek and quiet and properly domestic, they still wouldn't be real people. They wouldn't be anything at all. Because we'd never think of them. We only notice them when they complain about Israel, which is abstractly sad, up until their complaints consist of throwing rocks at police, at which point Israeli cops gun them down, because they've become beasts once more.
This crosses the line into American citizenry, too. College students are presumed to belong to Society, up until they show sympathy for Gazans, at which point they're either puppets of Hamas or they're just bratty, unruly children looking for discipline. Their arrests are justified: when they grow up and re-enter Society, they'll agree about that, surely. If they get hurt, that's okay, because it means they'll remember their lesson. And journalists are part of Society so long as they're reporting on how brave and valiant Israel's efforts are, because that's free speech and freedom of press. Reporting sympathetically about Palestine isn't free speech: it's irresponsible lying. Nobody who does that should be considered a professional, and therefore nobody who does it deserves political protection.
The ICC is a noble institution that helps to make the world more just, unless it calls an Israeli politician a war criminal, in which case it's fomenting malignant disorder. The United Nations is an admirable political union, unless its members start recognizing Palestine as a state, which is practically endorsing terrorism. Because what matters, first and foremost, is the preservation of Society—and anything that dares besmirch the integrity of Society's members is a threat to everything orderly and good.
Israel doesn't want to have to commit genocide. It's not even genocide, really. It's just making sure that the non-people stay quiet. It's making sure we don't have to think about them. And if the non-people keep trying to be heard, eventually there's only one solution—a final solution, if you will—because you can only tell non-people to stop trying to be people so many times.
My pro-Zionist family members don't take glee in what's happening. They hate what's happening. They hate that Hamas made this happen. They hate that sooo many people are condemning Israel, because it's basically a kind of erasure: how could you possibly criticize Israel, didn't you see what Hamas did? I think I mentioned in an earlier thread that my cousin mentioned sending her son on Birthright during Passover dinner, and the fact that she could say a word like "birthright" out loud this year without flinching made my skin fucking crawl. But to her mind, it is her son's birthright: to see Israel, to learn about the beautiful history of the Jewish people, and to choose to live there, if he so desires. His living there doesn't have to displace Palestinians, in the sense that he wouldn't actively want Palestinians to have to be displaced. They'd only get displaced because, well, they're there, and he wants to be there, and they can't be there if he's gonna be there, and it's his birthright, and why do they act like that's so hard to understand? Who would question something this obvious, if not out of outright malice?
But this is not a new concept, where racism is concerned. It's why we talk about "structural" or "institutional" racism. It's why the idea of the "white moderate" was a thing for MLK. Racism does not mean that you actively hate a group of people. It just means that you don't really think of them as people. They're not part of Society. If you disapprove of outright hatred towards those people, it's not because the hatred is bad: it's because it's not genteel to think of those people whatsoever. And if someone does hate those people, if they celebrate those people dying, if they kill those people themselves... well, your sympathies are still with the person harboring genocidal hatred. Their hatred is bad table manners, but they're still people. It's not even a choice between them and the folks they hate, because the folks they hate aren't really people. They're not Society. Nothing is really awful unless it's happening to us.
posted by Tom Hanks Cannot Be Trusted at 6:53 AM on May 22 [42 favorites]
If that's not sidebar-worthy, idk what is.
posted by Audreynachrome at 7:32 AM on May 22 [8 favorites]
posted by Audreynachrome at 7:32 AM on May 22 [8 favorites]
Nothing is really awful unless it's happening to us.
Which ties in nicely with the worst consequence of the Just World delusion:
If monstrous things have been done, whoever they were done to must have deserved them. But we know that we are just and virtuous, so none of us could ever possibly deserve to have anything so monstrous inflicted upon us. Therefore, whoever did get those things inflicted on them was ipso facto not us. QED.
posted by flabdablet at 8:33 AM on May 22 [9 favorites]
Which ties in nicely with the worst consequence of the Just World delusion:
If monstrous things have been done, whoever they were done to must have deserved them. But we know that we are just and virtuous, so none of us could ever possibly deserve to have anything so monstrous inflicted upon us. Therefore, whoever did get those things inflicted on them was ipso facto not us. QED.
posted by flabdablet at 8:33 AM on May 22 [9 favorites]
Well. AP: Takeaways from AP examination of how 2 debunked accounts of sexual violence on Oct. 7 originated - basically the stuff from ZAKA is unusable and caused other instances (that still needs investigating, if Israel would actually allow international access) to be mixed up in the ensuing scepticism, but it's inescapable considering it's the ZAKA stories most of all that were deliberately fed to western/friendly press by the state.
Unrelated, but anyway that AP ban/seizure has been reversed.
---
WELL. CNN: Egypt changed terms of Gaza ceasefire deal presented to Hamas, surprising negotiators, sources say - this particular journo team (this time filed by Jeremy Diamond and Alex Marquandt) isn't so in bed with access journalism the way Barak Ravid is and has been filing critical stories, so this isn't exactly gossip straight from the IDF. The MENA accounts sharing this don't sound too surprised.
--
What the hell. FT: Biden administration signals it will support push to hit ICC with sanctions (more reportage following the Guardian article on the same item)
Congressional Republicans have signalled they plan to introduce legislation that will impose costs on the court for its decision and are expected to force a vote on a measure that could lay bare the divisions with the Democrats over the Israel-Hamas war.
Jim Risch, the top Republican on the Senate foreign relations committee, asked Blinken at a hearing whether he would support legislation to counter “the ICC sticking its nose in the business of countries that have an independent, legitimate democratic judicial system”.
Risch said he and other members were working on legislation to address the court’s actions, which he described as “wrong-headed”.
Blinken’s openness to bipartisan co-operation over the ICC is a sign of the level of anger in Washington over its request for arrest warrants for Israel’s Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and defence minister Yoav Gallant.
(...)Republicans have signalled they are united in their intention to censure the court. Republican House Speaker Mike Johnson is expected to hold a vote on sanctions as soon as this week.
But the view of the Democrats is less clear. While the Democratic leadership, including Senate majority leader Chuck Schumer and House minority leader Hakeem Jeffries, have criticised the court, they have not yet said whether they would support sanctions.
Progressives such as Senator Bernie Sanders of Vermont have said they supported the ICC and its actions.
I think this part is a war crime: Republican Senator Lindsey Graham praised Schumer’s response to the ICC warrant application and urged him “to follow strong words with strong deeds”.
“It is imperative that the Senate, in a bipartisan way, comes up with crippling sanctions against the ICC — not only to support Israel but to deter any future action against American personnel,” Graham said.
The article ends with a quote of Bibi in an MSNBC interview - Israel watchers noted he's done two US media interviews since the ICC Prosecutor announcement, but his last domestic appearance was back in April.
And here is Karim Khan on CNN saying that an unnamed "senior elected leader" (presumably someone like Sunak, Scholz, or Macron) told him "the ICC is for Africa and thugs like Putin, not Israel".
The full interview is on YT as well, around minute 19.
This is like the mirror universe version of when first-gen ethnonationalists become upset when third-gen really believe in the bullshit. But you know even then, it's still an application for a warrant that includes the Hamas leaders as well, so it's not like ICC is doing anything particularly non-Western order but it's just that there are other considerations that makes professing liberal values this time to be more than just lip service. Relatedly, the announcement of Spain, Ireland, and Norway in recognising Palestinian statehood may play into widening cracks within the NATO set on this issue because quite frankly Europe has to genuinely worry about Russia in ways the US may not appreciate and Israel doesn't care about.
Also,
interrogative mood: "And to think just a few month ago the Palestine Chronicle was writing attack pieces about Khan", which is responding to a Mouin Rabbani tweet shared by adrienneleigh ("Israel, which together with the US and UK served as a chief sponsor of Karim Khan's campaign to become ICC prosecutor, now denounces him as "among the great antisemites of modern times".") To my mind is really part of the same facet that's commented by others, for example:
Alonso Gurmendi - "The West was given a choice today between the international criminal law project it kicked off at Nuremberg and impunity for Israel. It is choosing the latter and thus will destroy the former."
Now that's a global south view and phrasing. In a similar vein, from the imperial core, Ben Rhodes: "Hard to imagine a greater geopolitical gift for China and Russia than the US sanctioning an international institution in service of hypocrisy."
In the meantime, Gallant has now removed the entry ban that forbid Israelis from entering the north West Bank since 2005, explicitly stating the aim is for “the development of settlement,”; Ben-Gvir was peacocking around the Al-Aqsa Mosque, saying that it "belongs only to the state of Israel". (on video, of course); and via Muhammad Shehada sharing translated screenshots of Hebrew reporting where it's evident IDF slowrolled the news that the recent bodies of the four hostages are found up north, and nowhere near Rafah, and Hamas is still active and operational up north. No wonder random civilians in the West Bank gets shot instead. It's frustration.
(Also by him, so apparently the Israel state twt account just posted, with mistranslations, a full video from Gaza militants on Oct 7 on a particular group of IDF soldiers caught and inadvertently: 🚨Israel now accidentally revealed the blood stains on Naama Levy's pants most likely came from wounds on her arms & ankles when Levy (an IDF soldier) was captured at the Nahal Oz base
This picture was central to Israel's weaponization of allegations of rape to justify genocide!)
Back to civilians: (BBC, its Eye Investigations team) Gazans ‘shackled and blindfolded’ at Israel hospital (still not 'Palestinians' huh.)
Medical workers in Israel have told the BBC that Palestinian detainees from Gaza are routinely kept shackled to hospital beds, blindfolded, sometimes naked, and forced to wear nappies – a practice one medic said amounted to “torture”.
A whistle-blower detailed how procedures in one military hospital were “routinely” carried out without painkillers, causing “an unacceptable amount of pain” to detainees.
Another whistle-blower said painkillers were used “selectively” and “in a very limited way” during an invasive medical procedure on a Gazan detainee in a public hospital.
He also said critically ill patients being held in makeshift military facilities were being denied proper treatment because of a reluctance by public hospitals to transfer and treat them.
One detainee, taken from Gaza for questioning by the Israeli army and later released, told the BBC his leg had to be amputated because he was denied treatment for an infected wound.
A senior doctor working inside the military hospital at the centre of the allegations denied that any amputations were the direct result of conditions there, but described the shackles and other restraints used by guards as “dehumanisation”.
The Israeli army said detainees at the facility were treated “appropriately and carefully”.
The two whistle-blowers the BBC spoke to were both in positions to assess the medical treatment of detainees. Both asked to remain anonymous because of the sensitivity of the issue among their colleagues.
(...) Two witnesses at the facility in the early weeks of the Gaza war told us that patients there were kept naked under the blankets.
One doctor with knowledge of conditions there said prolonged cuffing to beds would cause “huge suffering, horrible suffering”, describing it as “torture” and saying patients would start to feel pain after a few hours.
Others have spoken of the risk of long-term nerve-damage.
Managed to end on an exemplary example of "crying while shooting" too: “My fear is that what we’re doing in Sde Teiman won’t allow a return to the way it was before,” one doctor told the BBC. “Because things that looked unreasonable to us before, will look reasonable when this crisis is over.”
Yoel Donchin, the anaesthesiologist, said medical staff at the field hospital sometimes gathered together to cry over the situation there.
“The moment our hospital closes,” he said, “we’ll celebrate.”
Really makes you think, who's allowed to be in Society.
posted by cendawanita at 12:10 PM on May 22 [10 favorites]
Unrelated, but anyway that AP ban/seizure has been reversed.
---
WELL. CNN: Egypt changed terms of Gaza ceasefire deal presented to Hamas, surprising negotiators, sources say - this particular journo team (this time filed by Jeremy Diamond and Alex Marquandt) isn't so in bed with access journalism the way Barak Ravid is and has been filing critical stories, so this isn't exactly gossip straight from the IDF. The MENA accounts sharing this don't sound too surprised.
--
What the hell. FT: Biden administration signals it will support push to hit ICC with sanctions (more reportage following the Guardian article on the same item)
Congressional Republicans have signalled they plan to introduce legislation that will impose costs on the court for its decision and are expected to force a vote on a measure that could lay bare the divisions with the Democrats over the Israel-Hamas war.
Jim Risch, the top Republican on the Senate foreign relations committee, asked Blinken at a hearing whether he would support legislation to counter “the ICC sticking its nose in the business of countries that have an independent, legitimate democratic judicial system”.
Risch said he and other members were working on legislation to address the court’s actions, which he described as “wrong-headed”.
Blinken’s openness to bipartisan co-operation over the ICC is a sign of the level of anger in Washington over its request for arrest warrants for Israel’s Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and defence minister Yoav Gallant.
(...)Republicans have signalled they are united in their intention to censure the court. Republican House Speaker Mike Johnson is expected to hold a vote on sanctions as soon as this week.
But the view of the Democrats is less clear. While the Democratic leadership, including Senate majority leader Chuck Schumer and House minority leader Hakeem Jeffries, have criticised the court, they have not yet said whether they would support sanctions.
Progressives such as Senator Bernie Sanders of Vermont have said they supported the ICC and its actions.
I think this part is a war crime: Republican Senator Lindsey Graham praised Schumer’s response to the ICC warrant application and urged him “to follow strong words with strong deeds”.
“It is imperative that the Senate, in a bipartisan way, comes up with crippling sanctions against the ICC — not only to support Israel but to deter any future action against American personnel,” Graham said.
The article ends with a quote of Bibi in an MSNBC interview - Israel watchers noted he's done two US media interviews since the ICC Prosecutor announcement, but his last domestic appearance was back in April.
And here is Karim Khan on CNN saying that an unnamed "senior elected leader" (presumably someone like Sunak, Scholz, or Macron) told him "the ICC is for Africa and thugs like Putin, not Israel".
The full interview is on YT as well, around minute 19.
This is like the mirror universe version of when first-gen ethnonationalists become upset when third-gen really believe in the bullshit. But you know even then, it's still an application for a warrant that includes the Hamas leaders as well, so it's not like ICC is doing anything particularly non-Western order but it's just that there are other considerations that makes professing liberal values this time to be more than just lip service. Relatedly, the announcement of Spain, Ireland, and Norway in recognising Palestinian statehood may play into widening cracks within the NATO set on this issue because quite frankly Europe has to genuinely worry about Russia in ways the US may not appreciate and Israel doesn't care about.
Also,
interrogative mood: "And to think just a few month ago the Palestine Chronicle was writing attack pieces about Khan", which is responding to a Mouin Rabbani tweet shared by adrienneleigh ("Israel, which together with the US and UK served as a chief sponsor of Karim Khan's campaign to become ICC prosecutor, now denounces him as "among the great antisemites of modern times".") To my mind is really part of the same facet that's commented by others, for example:
Alonso Gurmendi - "The West was given a choice today between the international criminal law project it kicked off at Nuremberg and impunity for Israel. It is choosing the latter and thus will destroy the former."
Now that's a global south view and phrasing. In a similar vein, from the imperial core, Ben Rhodes: "Hard to imagine a greater geopolitical gift for China and Russia than the US sanctioning an international institution in service of hypocrisy."
In the meantime, Gallant has now removed the entry ban that forbid Israelis from entering the north West Bank since 2005, explicitly stating the aim is for “the development of settlement,”; Ben-Gvir was peacocking around the Al-Aqsa Mosque, saying that it "belongs only to the state of Israel". (on video, of course); and via Muhammad Shehada sharing translated screenshots of Hebrew reporting where it's evident IDF slowrolled the news that the recent bodies of the four hostages are found up north, and nowhere near Rafah, and Hamas is still active and operational up north. No wonder random civilians in the West Bank gets shot instead. It's frustration.
(Also by him, so apparently the Israel state twt account just posted, with mistranslations, a full video from Gaza militants on Oct 7 on a particular group of IDF soldiers caught and inadvertently: 🚨Israel now accidentally revealed the blood stains on Naama Levy's pants most likely came from wounds on her arms & ankles when Levy (an IDF soldier) was captured at the Nahal Oz base
This picture was central to Israel's weaponization of allegations of rape to justify genocide!)
Back to civilians: (BBC, its Eye Investigations team) Gazans ‘shackled and blindfolded’ at Israel hospital (still not 'Palestinians' huh.)
Medical workers in Israel have told the BBC that Palestinian detainees from Gaza are routinely kept shackled to hospital beds, blindfolded, sometimes naked, and forced to wear nappies – a practice one medic said amounted to “torture”.
A whistle-blower detailed how procedures in one military hospital were “routinely” carried out without painkillers, causing “an unacceptable amount of pain” to detainees.
Another whistle-blower said painkillers were used “selectively” and “in a very limited way” during an invasive medical procedure on a Gazan detainee in a public hospital.
He also said critically ill patients being held in makeshift military facilities were being denied proper treatment because of a reluctance by public hospitals to transfer and treat them.
One detainee, taken from Gaza for questioning by the Israeli army and later released, told the BBC his leg had to be amputated because he was denied treatment for an infected wound.
A senior doctor working inside the military hospital at the centre of the allegations denied that any amputations were the direct result of conditions there, but described the shackles and other restraints used by guards as “dehumanisation”.
The Israeli army said detainees at the facility were treated “appropriately and carefully”.
The two whistle-blowers the BBC spoke to were both in positions to assess the medical treatment of detainees. Both asked to remain anonymous because of the sensitivity of the issue among their colleagues.
(...) Two witnesses at the facility in the early weeks of the Gaza war told us that patients there were kept naked under the blankets.
One doctor with knowledge of conditions there said prolonged cuffing to beds would cause “huge suffering, horrible suffering”, describing it as “torture” and saying patients would start to feel pain after a few hours.
Others have spoken of the risk of long-term nerve-damage.
Managed to end on an exemplary example of "crying while shooting" too: “My fear is that what we’re doing in Sde Teiman won’t allow a return to the way it was before,” one doctor told the BBC. “Because things that looked unreasonable to us before, will look reasonable when this crisis is over.”
Yoel Donchin, the anaesthesiologist, said medical staff at the field hospital sometimes gathered together to cry over the situation there.
“The moment our hospital closes,” he said, “we’ll celebrate.”
Really makes you think, who's allowed to be in Society.
posted by cendawanita at 12:10 PM on May 22 [10 favorites]
Oh forgot, two German impulses enter. Only one wins:
Per summary by James Jackson: Germany confirms that it would arrest Netanyahu if there was an arrest warrant issued
The German tweet in question: "Grundsätzlich sind wir Unterstützer des Internationalen Strafgerichtshofs"
Zur Frage, ob die Haftbefehle umgesetzt werden:
"Natürlich [...] Wir halten uns an Recht und Gesetz"
- Regierungssprecher Hebestreit soeben in der BPK
Trans: ""Basically, we are supporters of the International Criminal Court"
On the question of whether the arrest warrants will be implemented:
"Of course [...] We abide by the law"
- Government spokesman Hebestreit just now in the BPK"
posted by cendawanita at 12:23 PM on May 22 [6 favorites]
Per summary by James Jackson: Germany confirms that it would arrest Netanyahu if there was an arrest warrant issued
The German tweet in question: "Grundsätzlich sind wir Unterstützer des Internationalen Strafgerichtshofs"
Zur Frage, ob die Haftbefehle umgesetzt werden:
"Natürlich [...] Wir halten uns an Recht und Gesetz"
- Regierungssprecher Hebestreit soeben in der BPK
Trans: ""Basically, we are supporters of the International Criminal Court"
On the question of whether the arrest warrants will be implemented:
"Of course [...] We abide by the law"
- Government spokesman Hebestreit just now in the BPK"
posted by cendawanita at 12:23 PM on May 22 [6 favorites]
basically the stuff from ZAKA is unusable and caused other instances (that still needs investigating, if Israel would actually allow international access) to be mixed up in the ensuing scepticism
ZAKA is a fundamentalist religious organization that was created by a rapist pedophile, and it's inexcusable that anything their people say gets taken as fact ever.
posted by adrienneleigh at 2:25 PM on May 22 [7 favorites]
ZAKA is a fundamentalist religious organization that was created by a rapist pedophile, and it's inexcusable that anything their people say gets taken as fact ever.
posted by adrienneleigh at 2:25 PM on May 22 [7 favorites]
Am I understanding that CNN link right, cendawanita, in that it appears to be saying Israel quietly accepted Egypt's ceasefire proposal... and then Egypt unilaterally changed the terms without telling Israel/US/Qatar when they presented it to Hamas. And then Hamas announced they accepted it without knowing that the terms were not what Israel had agreed to?
That's diplomatic malpractice on Egypt's part. It seems like a deal was within reach and they scuttled it.
posted by Justinian at 2:29 PM on May 22 [1 favorite]
That's diplomatic malpractice on Egypt's part. It seems like a deal was within reach and they scuttled it.
posted by Justinian at 2:29 PM on May 22 [1 favorite]
Sana Saeed on Twitter with a short thread on WaPo's new article about the capture of five female Israeli soldiers, which is full of mistranslations from Arabic that serve no purpose except to dehumanize and bestialize Palestinian resistance fighters.
(WaPo did slightly backtrack on one of the mistranslations after Saeed's thread came out, but her thread does have screencaps of the original wording.)
posted by adrienneleigh at 2:35 PM on May 22 [4 favorites]
(WaPo did slightly backtrack on one of the mistranslations after Saeed's thread came out, but her thread does have screencaps of the original wording.)
posted by adrienneleigh at 2:35 PM on May 22 [4 favorites]
The term they were using "Sabi'ia" سبيايا is one that fundamentalist groups like Islamic State have used to refer to non-muslim females who are captured in war. It has been used to justify the rape/ sexual slavery of those captives. IIRC أسير "Asir" is the word used more commonly to refer to prisoners. Some references:
- "In late 2014, ISIS published a five-page pamphlet consisting of thirty-two questions and answers in Arabic, titled “Questions and Answers on Captives and Slaves." reading on to the contents of the pamphlet provided by the author "Question 1: What is al-sabi? Al-Sabi is a woman from among ahl al-harb [the people of war] who has been captured by Muslims." and further down "Question 4: Is it permissible to have intercourse with a female captive? It is permissible to have sexual intercourse with the female captive...." (more explanations and details are provided. -- See Sexual Slavery in Islam and through the Islamic StateYou can also find a translation of this pamphlet by Human Rights Watch.. Note Al-Sabi is a singular form meaning "The captive"
- "The Arabic language is very precise. The vocabulary used to define the English catch-all of “prisoner” is broken down to differentiate detainee, “معتقل/ة,” prisoner, “سجين/ة,” both often with the additive “political,” “سياسي/ة,” and captive “ أسير/ة.” Captivity, أسر, refers to the capture of prisoners of war and is an explicit term for prisoners taken by a foreign power or in a colonial context. By definition and linguistic conventions, Palestinian prisoners taken by the Israeli military occupation are referred to as captives, asra, “أسرى,”" "Prisoner" and "Captive:" Defining Positionality and Conceptualizing Carceral Regimes in the Arab World.
The first article you cite is about how the ISIS interpretation is a deviation from normal Muslim practice. The second one says nothing to do with sexual abuse of prisoners.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 5:48 PM on May 22 [7 favorites]
posted by The Manwich Horror at 5:48 PM on May 22 [7 favorites]
Am I understanding that CNN link right, cendawanita, in that it appears to be saying Israel quietly accepted Egypt's ceasefire proposal... and then Egypt unilaterally changed the terms without telling Israel/US/Qatar when they presented it to Hamas. And then Hamas announced they accepted it without knowing that the terms were not what Israel had agreed to?
That's diplomatic malpractice on Egypt's part. It seems like a deal was within reach and they scuttled it.
That seems to be the case. As for why, I don't have a good read on why the unilateralism - the ones predisposed to believe the reporting are pointing out that it's not in Egypt's interest to have a physical and long-term return to outright occupation of Gaza again + it's another reflection of American failure in their overall strategy to outsource the work to their known regional allies (as with what happened with the security failure with Israel), which also indicates nothing will happen in public to penalise the Egyptians. Which all boils down to the fantasy of managing "the Palestinian problem" without honouring their rights and self-determination.
posted by cendawanita at 6:30 PM on May 22 [5 favorites]
That's diplomatic malpractice on Egypt's part. It seems like a deal was within reach and they scuttled it.
That seems to be the case. As for why, I don't have a good read on why the unilateralism - the ones predisposed to believe the reporting are pointing out that it's not in Egypt's interest to have a physical and long-term return to outright occupation of Gaza again + it's another reflection of American failure in their overall strategy to outsource the work to their known regional allies (as with what happened with the security failure with Israel), which also indicates nothing will happen in public to penalise the Egyptians. Which all boils down to the fantasy of managing "the Palestinian problem" without honouring their rights and self-determination.
posted by cendawanita at 6:30 PM on May 22 [5 favorites]
(because it's not like the US State Dept isn't feeling the impact of the decades-long pivot to staffing the MENA and related desks to those more partial to the Zionist line which means overall analytical failure + general staffing cuts - this is the scuttlebutt I've been picking up in the chatter)
posted by cendawanita at 6:34 PM on May 22 [5 favorites]
posted by cendawanita at 6:34 PM on May 22 [5 favorites]
interogative mood: if you aren't a native Arabic speaker, i think you probably shouldn't be lecturing people about why Sana Saeed (who is) is wrong about her own language.
Also, Hamas is explicitly an enemy of ISIS, and the groups disagree quite a bit on interpretation of Muslim law & practice. ISIS really doesn't get along with much of anyone. Bringing their practices, which i assure you horrify most other Muslims, into a conversation about Hamas also serves no purpose except to dehumanize and bestialize Palestinian resistance fighters.
posted by adrienneleigh at 7:18 PM on May 22 [11 favorites]
Also, Hamas is explicitly an enemy of ISIS, and the groups disagree quite a bit on interpretation of Muslim law & practice. ISIS really doesn't get along with much of anyone. Bringing their practices, which i assure you horrify most other Muslims, into a conversation about Hamas also serves no purpose except to dehumanize and bestialize Palestinian resistance fighters.
posted by adrienneleigh at 7:18 PM on May 22 [11 favorites]
Am contemplating if we're historically close to the US being more like Europe in actually embodying the literal text of the international order and actually practice diplomacy not of the gunboat kind (while maintaining colonial practice as long as it's overlooked, cf New Caledonia) because of similar staffing and resource issues (which, hey, as a postcolonial - and I'm sure Israelis who are aware of their history would agree - I'll take it as a contingently positive development):-
Al-Monitor: Yemen’s Houthis can range Mediterranean ships, Pentagon says
In February, the United States and the United Kingdom began a series of air and naval strikes targeting Houthi missile and drone stockpiles inside Yemen. Yet US military officials overseeing the campaign admit the attritional approach has its limits, as the US Navy's efforts to interdict Iran's steady supply of precision-guided components to the Houthis have barely made a dent.
(...) Saudi Arabia has restricted the US military's use of bases in the kingdom for launching airstrikes against Houthi targets in Yemen.
Weary of its yearslong campaign against the Houthis, Riyadh is seeking a diplomatic end to the war, which has largely halted since the UN brokered a cease-fire in April 2022 with the support of the Biden administration.
If Saudi Arabia and other Gulf states won't help the United States target and destroy the Houthis' mostly Iranian-made arsenal, Pentagon officials are hoping they can support a new multilateral interdiction effort.
In the thread I saw this in, I saw figures like USD1b being bandied around for the estimate costs of the Interceptor drones being used so far.
Hmm, looks like I gotta pay attention to who's the Barak Ravid of the US military: (Politico) Biden admin openly hammering Israel’s military strategy in Gaza
Top officials are publicly calling Israel’s strategy in Gaza self-defeating and likely to open the door to Hamas’ return — a level of criticism of the Middle East ally not seen since the war began in October.
The officials say Israel’s government has failed to hold parts of Gaza after clearing them, has turned the civilian population and the rest of the world against it with widespread bombing and inadequate humanitarian aid, and enabled Hamas to recruit more fighters.
The U.S. for months kept any criticism private, quietly pushing Israel to shift how it retaliates against Hamas for its Oct. 7 attack that started the war. But the frustration of watching Israel refuse to change course has increasingly spilled into the open, each broadside a crowbar widening the rift between Washington and Jerusalem.
(...) Biden officials have also become increasingly concerned that Hamas has been able to recruit during wartime — thousands over the last several months. That has allowed the group to withstand months of Israeli offensives, according to a person familiar with U.S. intelligence.
Filed under #noshit
posted by cendawanita at 9:48 PM on May 22 [3 favorites]
Al-Monitor: Yemen’s Houthis can range Mediterranean ships, Pentagon says
In February, the United States and the United Kingdom began a series of air and naval strikes targeting Houthi missile and drone stockpiles inside Yemen. Yet US military officials overseeing the campaign admit the attritional approach has its limits, as the US Navy's efforts to interdict Iran's steady supply of precision-guided components to the Houthis have barely made a dent.
(...) Saudi Arabia has restricted the US military's use of bases in the kingdom for launching airstrikes against Houthi targets in Yemen.
Weary of its yearslong campaign against the Houthis, Riyadh is seeking a diplomatic end to the war, which has largely halted since the UN brokered a cease-fire in April 2022 with the support of the Biden administration.
If Saudi Arabia and other Gulf states won't help the United States target and destroy the Houthis' mostly Iranian-made arsenal, Pentagon officials are hoping they can support a new multilateral interdiction effort.
In the thread I saw this in, I saw figures like USD1b being bandied around for the estimate costs of the Interceptor drones being used so far.
Hmm, looks like I gotta pay attention to who's the Barak Ravid of the US military: (Politico) Biden admin openly hammering Israel’s military strategy in Gaza
Top officials are publicly calling Israel’s strategy in Gaza self-defeating and likely to open the door to Hamas’ return — a level of criticism of the Middle East ally not seen since the war began in October.
The officials say Israel’s government has failed to hold parts of Gaza after clearing them, has turned the civilian population and the rest of the world against it with widespread bombing and inadequate humanitarian aid, and enabled Hamas to recruit more fighters.
The U.S. for months kept any criticism private, quietly pushing Israel to shift how it retaliates against Hamas for its Oct. 7 attack that started the war. But the frustration of watching Israel refuse to change course has increasingly spilled into the open, each broadside a crowbar widening the rift between Washington and Jerusalem.
(...) Biden officials have also become increasingly concerned that Hamas has been able to recruit during wartime — thousands over the last several months. That has allowed the group to withstand months of Israeli offensives, according to a person familiar with U.S. intelligence.
Filed under #noshit
posted by cendawanita at 9:48 PM on May 22 [3 favorites]
Sana Saeeed is a Canadian by birth who has spent most of her life in the United States. Her native language is English. Her family of origin immigrated from Kashmir. So maybe she isn’t the authority you think she is when it comes to translating Palestinian Arabic.
posted by interogative mood at 10:03 PM on May 22
posted by interogative mood at 10:03 PM on May 22
If it helps, every other Arabic speaker or Arabic-speaking Palestinian is saying the same. Heck, I even applauded a racist who specifically tagged a Christian scholar who speaks Arabic because according to him, Muslims lie, for the part of the mistranslation about them being made "pregnant" and the scholar pretty much agreed with that correction. By your logic though, this may not be enough on account of the Christianity or non-Arabness.
Now, I don't know how she's raised but Arabic familiarity is not a joke if you were a kid who completed the recitation of the Qur'an at least once. Secondly, I'm not touching the assertion that her native language is English. Because thirdly, if she's Kashmiri by culture and adjacent upbringing, that tells me you know very little about her language landscape, when it comes to Arabic, and general South Asian cultural groups' cohesion (in other aspects, have both it's plusses and minuses to this generally low effort at physical assimilation as a group the way European minorities assimilated into whiteness) plus her job.
But if we're done slandering a journalist.... I'd like to point out, it's been far more common for hasbarists and zionist-adjacent people to be illiterate in Arabic and yet persists in either mistranslation of phrases (this doesn't even have to do with Palestine directly - the State Dept pivot I mentioned had as its earliest casualty the analysis and commentaries during the War on Terror) or in this round of violence, trying to mimic being Arabic speakers only to be caught out in basic shit even I, who only understands Quranic Arabic (on account of possibly similar upbringing), could catch.
posted by cendawanita at 10:30 PM on May 22 [7 favorites]
Now, I don't know how she's raised but Arabic familiarity is not a joke if you were a kid who completed the recitation of the Qur'an at least once. Secondly, I'm not touching the assertion that her native language is English. Because thirdly, if she's Kashmiri by culture and adjacent upbringing, that tells me you know very little about her language landscape, when it comes to Arabic, and general South Asian cultural groups' cohesion (in other aspects, have both it's plusses and minuses to this generally low effort at physical assimilation as a group the way European minorities assimilated into whiteness) plus her job.
But if we're done slandering a journalist.... I'd like to point out, it's been far more common for hasbarists and zionist-adjacent people to be illiterate in Arabic and yet persists in either mistranslation of phrases (this doesn't even have to do with Palestine directly - the State Dept pivot I mentioned had as its earliest casualty the analysis and commentaries during the War on Terror) or in this round of violence, trying to mimic being Arabic speakers only to be caught out in basic shit even I, who only understands Quranic Arabic (on account of possibly similar upbringing), could catch.
posted by cendawanita at 10:30 PM on May 22 [7 favorites]
I mean, could MEMRI even still be around if not for this cultural habitude to distrust anything from the "Muslim world"?
posted by cendawanita at 10:32 PM on May 22 [3 favorites]
posted by cendawanita at 10:32 PM on May 22 [3 favorites]
It's lunchtime so as usual instead of catching up on news I spent it on twitter tracking any particularly useful ripostes because, once again, Palestinians aren't people until Israelis agree.
Anyway, Yair Horowitz: הנה משהו שמצייץ על מה שחשבתי, אני מבין ערבית, התרגום בסרטון לא נכון, או שהמחבל אמר صبايا (סבאיא) או سبايا (שבאיא)، משמעות סבאיא בערבית זה בנות, משמעות שבאיא זה שבויות מלחמה, בשתי המילים בערבית אין שום קשר לא להיריון ולא לאונס, לא מבין איך דחפו את עניין האונס וההיריון.
Trans.: "Here's something tweeting about what I was thinking, I understand Arabic, the translation in the video is wrong, or the terrorist said Sabaya (Sabaya) or Sabaya (Shabaya), the meaning of Sabaya in Arabic is girls, the meaning of Baya is prisoners of war, the two words in Arabic have nothing to do with pregnancy And not for rape, I don't understand how they pushed the matter of rape and pregnancy."
Take it up with google if you think the translation is wrong.
posted by cendawanita at 10:49 PM on May 22 [1 favorite]
Anyway, Yair Horowitz: הנה משהו שמצייץ על מה שחשבתי, אני מבין ערבית, התרגום בסרטון לא נכון, או שהמחבל אמר صبايا (סבאיא) או سبايا (שבאיא)، משמעות סבאיא בערבית זה בנות, משמעות שבאיא זה שבויות מלחמה, בשתי המילים בערבית אין שום קשר לא להיריון ולא לאונס, לא מבין איך דחפו את עניין האונס וההיריון.
Trans.: "Here's something tweeting about what I was thinking, I understand Arabic, the translation in the video is wrong, or the terrorist said Sabaya (Sabaya) or Sabaya (Shabaya), the meaning of Sabaya in Arabic is girls, the meaning of Baya is prisoners of war, the two words in Arabic have nothing to do with pregnancy And not for rape, I don't understand how they pushed the matter of rape and pregnancy."
Take it up with google if you think the translation is wrong.
posted by cendawanita at 10:49 PM on May 22 [1 favorite]
What the hell. FT: Biden administration signals it will support push to hit ICC with sanctions
I honestly don't understand how this deserves a "what the hell". What possible reason could any attentive observer have for expecting the Biden administration, or any other US administration of recent memory for that matter, to take any other line?
If anybody is ever in any doubt about the actual motivations behind US foreign policy, you can rely on the current crop of Republican knuckle draggers to yell the quiet parts out loud for you.
The Empire supports international institutions only insofar as they remain useful sticks with which to beat any uppity pretender who might threaten its dominance of global trade. Such beatings are additionally useful because they distract public attention from the dirty business constantly being conducted by and for the Empire itself. Any genuine attempt to hold the Empire accountable to the same standards its political wing professes to demand of others is, of course, intolerable and must be suppressed.
it's been far more common for hasbarists and zionist-adjacent people to be illiterate in Arabic and yet persists in either mistranslation of phrases
The one that really gave their game away is that incident where they overran a children's hospital to bust the dreaded Hamas operatives Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday and Sunday.
posted by flabdablet at 10:51 PM on May 22 [6 favorites]
I honestly don't understand how this deserves a "what the hell". What possible reason could any attentive observer have for expecting the Biden administration, or any other US administration of recent memory for that matter, to take any other line?
If anybody is ever in any doubt about the actual motivations behind US foreign policy, you can rely on the current crop of Republican knuckle draggers to yell the quiet parts out loud for you.
The Empire supports international institutions only insofar as they remain useful sticks with which to beat any uppity pretender who might threaten its dominance of global trade. Such beatings are additionally useful because they distract public attention from the dirty business constantly being conducted by and for the Empire itself. Any genuine attempt to hold the Empire accountable to the same standards its political wing professes to demand of others is, of course, intolerable and must be suppressed.
it's been far more common for hasbarists and zionist-adjacent people to be illiterate in Arabic and yet persists in either mistranslation of phrases
The one that really gave their game away is that incident where they overran a children's hospital to bust the dreaded Hamas operatives Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday and Sunday.
posted by flabdablet at 10:51 PM on May 22 [6 favorites]
I grant that Levantine Arabic is a very different creature from Classical Arabic, but as cendawanita points out, a Kashmiri Muslim child, even in Canada, is going to have been raised with Classical Arabic in order to read the Qu'ran. I'm totally comfortable with calling it one of her native languages (i suspect she also speaks fluent Kashmiri).
It seems pretty likely that she speaks it better than you, in any case.
posted by adrienneleigh at 10:56 PM on May 22 [4 favorites]
It seems pretty likely that she speaks it better than you, in any case.
posted by adrienneleigh at 10:56 PM on May 22 [4 favorites]
What possible reason could any attentive observer have for expecting the Biden administration, or any other US administration of recent memory for that matter, to take any other line?
Democrats have been really off their game but I've realised now that Obama was a lot more moderating force than given credit for (considering he had both Biden and Clinton) in terms of handling the public face of it. Mind you, I'm also speaking as a Southeast Asian.
posted by cendawanita at 10:56 PM on May 22 [3 favorites]
Democrats have been really off their game but I've realised now that Obama was a lot more moderating force than given credit for (considering he had both Biden and Clinton) in terms of handling the public face of it. Mind you, I'm also speaking as a Southeast Asian.
posted by cendawanita at 10:56 PM on May 22 [3 favorites]
I cannot dispute that Obama's public face game remained impeccable even as the Empire began to stretch its public arsehole Goatse style to shit explosives on Pakistan, Afghanistan, Yemen, Somalia, Iraq, Syria and Libya.
Israel is currently doing its best to stretch that metaphor even further, its own public face now having become cloaked in the folds of its rectal prolapse.
posted by flabdablet at 11:24 PM on May 22 [3 favorites]
Israel is currently doing its best to stretch that metaphor even further, its own public face now having become cloaked in the folds of its rectal prolapse.
posted by flabdablet at 11:24 PM on May 22 [3 favorites]
Kyiv-based journo Bartaway:
Despite not ratifying the Rome Statute, the US has successfully used the Putin arrest warrant to limit Russian diplomacy by not letting him physically go places. Armenia joining the ICC was a big deal.
We are about to piss all of that away out of bizarre loyalty to a criminal.
American hypocrisy has always been an impediment to building international support for Ukraine. Now the next time America points out South Africa or Brazil is obliged to arrest Putin if he shows up, they can just laugh it off.
Adam Johnson: The liberal out (that allows one to concern troll and undermine the ICC without the messiness of disagreeing on merits) that the ICC case “rallies Israelis behind Netanyahu” is probably true but morally asinine, Putin’s poll numbers shot up after sanctions/ICC warrant, so what?
Just using one account's activity as an example, there're now rape fantasies against women and girls floating around in Zionist spaces because the three European countries' recognition of Palestinian statehood. I have to ask, exactly how frequently and deeply is the racist trope of arab rapists embedded in Zionist worldview that this is accessed for too easily, even accounting for debunked systemic rape claims? "I hope they rape you," should not be an automatic riposte, that's just insane, but I see it repeated against the American student protestors. What is this tit-for-tat thinking? Who taught them this?
---
Gregg Carlstrom:
This talk of a "limited" Rafah offensive seems like spin from a White House that wants to backtrack from its warnings. And it dovetails with an Israeli talking point about how the evacuation from Rafah shows that Israel listened to America (it didn't). 🧵
As @haaretzcom explains, the "limited" Rafah offensive isn't limited at all: "In practice, it is a deep ground operation, with a pattern of destruction similar to what has been seen in other cities across the Gaza Strip during earlier stages of the war."
It also cut off aid flows into southern Gaza, with the two main crossings all but closed. Only ~130 trucks have entered since May 6. Food distribution has been halted in some areas, bakeries are closing, community kitchens are running out of cooking gas.
More aid was entering Gaza in the month before the Rafah offensive. No longer: "Thousands of trucks sit idle, some with perishable goods spoiling in the summer heat. The only two crossings that are nominally open are seen by aid agencies as unusable."
And the evacuation itself has not been smooth. Gazans fleeing Rafah are arriving in a long-hyped "humanitarian zone" that still doesn't have the most basic infrastructure for sanitation, and where they often cannot find or cannot afford tents.
The Biden administration will insist that a major military operation is in fact a limited one, and ignore how the operation and the hasty evacuation of Rafah are deepening the humanitarian crisis in Gaza. And, voila, it will avoid having to follow through on its threats.
That's someone who writes for FP and all his links are liberal western-approved btw.
For something more reflexively sideeyed: (Mondoweiss) Israel’s extortion leaflets and Namecheap: How to do corporate accountability during a genocide -
Arizona-based Internet domain company NameCheap ended all service to Russia over the invasion of Ukraine but has now registered an Israeli website targeting Palestinian children. Activists are calling out the company's complicity in war crimes.
They succeeded but the article still has details worth reading over, just for witnessing sake.
On Friday Israel dropped another set of leaflets on Gaza. Israel’s use of leaflets for its psychological torture of the besieged Palestinian population is well known in these genocidal days.
Ominous, gloating, taunting, and sadistic messaging is the lingua franca of these leaflets, which Israel claims is a humanitarian effort to evacuate the civilian population. Some of the most common leaflet content are calls to contact Israel’s secret service with information on Hamas or the Israeli hostages. The purpose of these particular leaflets is twofold: the coercion of protected civilians to obtain information (which is a violation of the law of armed conflict); but most of all, to undermine the trust and cohesion of a community under siege and annihilation.
Friday’s leaflets took the intel-gathering genre to another level, when the army included messaging of extortion and a list of children, among them toddlers as targets, with the threat to reveal personal information such as criminal records, extramarital affairs, and queer identities.
--
Huh, so according to Hebrew media (translated screenshot by Muhammad Shehada) - the footage of the 5 IDF women soldiers was actually made public by their families to pressure the government to actually agree to a hostage deal but instead was taken advantage of as hasbara fodder (complete with mistranslations as covered upthread).
posted by cendawanita at 1:58 AM on May 23 [6 favorites]
Despite not ratifying the Rome Statute, the US has successfully used the Putin arrest warrant to limit Russian diplomacy by not letting him physically go places. Armenia joining the ICC was a big deal.
We are about to piss all of that away out of bizarre loyalty to a criminal.
American hypocrisy has always been an impediment to building international support for Ukraine. Now the next time America points out South Africa or Brazil is obliged to arrest Putin if he shows up, they can just laugh it off.
Adam Johnson: The liberal out (that allows one to concern troll and undermine the ICC without the messiness of disagreeing on merits) that the ICC case “rallies Israelis behind Netanyahu” is probably true but morally asinine, Putin’s poll numbers shot up after sanctions/ICC warrant, so what?
Just using one account's activity as an example, there're now rape fantasies against women and girls floating around in Zionist spaces because the three European countries' recognition of Palestinian statehood. I have to ask, exactly how frequently and deeply is the racist trope of arab rapists embedded in Zionist worldview that this is accessed for too easily, even accounting for debunked systemic rape claims? "I hope they rape you," should not be an automatic riposte, that's just insane, but I see it repeated against the American student protestors. What is this tit-for-tat thinking? Who taught them this?
---
Gregg Carlstrom:
This talk of a "limited" Rafah offensive seems like spin from a White House that wants to backtrack from its warnings. And it dovetails with an Israeli talking point about how the evacuation from Rafah shows that Israel listened to America (it didn't). 🧵
As @haaretzcom explains, the "limited" Rafah offensive isn't limited at all: "In practice, it is a deep ground operation, with a pattern of destruction similar to what has been seen in other cities across the Gaza Strip during earlier stages of the war."
It also cut off aid flows into southern Gaza, with the two main crossings all but closed. Only ~130 trucks have entered since May 6. Food distribution has been halted in some areas, bakeries are closing, community kitchens are running out of cooking gas.
More aid was entering Gaza in the month before the Rafah offensive. No longer: "Thousands of trucks sit idle, some with perishable goods spoiling in the summer heat. The only two crossings that are nominally open are seen by aid agencies as unusable."
And the evacuation itself has not been smooth. Gazans fleeing Rafah are arriving in a long-hyped "humanitarian zone" that still doesn't have the most basic infrastructure for sanitation, and where they often cannot find or cannot afford tents.
The Biden administration will insist that a major military operation is in fact a limited one, and ignore how the operation and the hasty evacuation of Rafah are deepening the humanitarian crisis in Gaza. And, voila, it will avoid having to follow through on its threats.
That's someone who writes for FP and all his links are liberal western-approved btw.
For something more reflexively sideeyed: (Mondoweiss) Israel’s extortion leaflets and Namecheap: How to do corporate accountability during a genocide -
Arizona-based Internet domain company NameCheap ended all service to Russia over the invasion of Ukraine but has now registered an Israeli website targeting Palestinian children. Activists are calling out the company's complicity in war crimes.
They succeeded but the article still has details worth reading over, just for witnessing sake.
On Friday Israel dropped another set of leaflets on Gaza. Israel’s use of leaflets for its psychological torture of the besieged Palestinian population is well known in these genocidal days.
Ominous, gloating, taunting, and sadistic messaging is the lingua franca of these leaflets, which Israel claims is a humanitarian effort to evacuate the civilian population. Some of the most common leaflet content are calls to contact Israel’s secret service with information on Hamas or the Israeli hostages. The purpose of these particular leaflets is twofold: the coercion of protected civilians to obtain information (which is a violation of the law of armed conflict); but most of all, to undermine the trust and cohesion of a community under siege and annihilation.
Friday’s leaflets took the intel-gathering genre to another level, when the army included messaging of extortion and a list of children, among them toddlers as targets, with the threat to reveal personal information such as criminal records, extramarital affairs, and queer identities.
--
Huh, so according to Hebrew media (translated screenshot by Muhammad Shehada) - the footage of the 5 IDF women soldiers was actually made public by their families to pressure the government to actually agree to a hostage deal but instead was taken advantage of as hasbara fodder (complete with mistranslations as covered upthread).
posted by cendawanita at 1:58 AM on May 23 [6 favorites]
(this should be accessible to most western IP addresses) Israel Hayom: ICJ poised to order halt to Gaza war; Israel concerned over next steps -
The prevailing assessment among Israeli officials is that the non-binding decision could come as soon as Friday. A significant concern is that injunctions from The Hague could precipitate a similar resolution by the UN Security Council, where Israel would again require a United States veto to block it.
An Israeli diplomatic source told Israel Hayom that legal experts assessed there was a high probability the court would rule to issue injunctions following a petition filed by South Africa against Israel's military actions. (...)
The two potential scenarios, the source said, were that the court could order a cessation of Israeli operations in the city of Rafah in southern Gaza, or further, that it could seek to halt the broader war in Gaza entirely through court injunctions.
posted by cendawanita at 3:40 AM on May 23 [2 favorites]
The prevailing assessment among Israeli officials is that the non-binding decision could come as soon as Friday. A significant concern is that injunctions from The Hague could precipitate a similar resolution by the UN Security Council, where Israel would again require a United States veto to block it.
An Israeli diplomatic source told Israel Hayom that legal experts assessed there was a high probability the court would rule to issue injunctions following a petition filed by South Africa against Israel's military actions. (...)
The two potential scenarios, the source said, were that the court could order a cessation of Israeli operations in the city of Rafah in southern Gaza, or further, that it could seek to halt the broader war in Gaza entirely through court injunctions.
posted by cendawanita at 3:40 AM on May 23 [2 favorites]
The whole topic of sexual assault on October 7 feels like it's never going to be resolved. I'm imagining how I'm going to argue this point in 2050. Israel buried the dead without examination, let random hardline Hasbarists who were totally unqualified set the narrative, and have been posting nothing but lurid fantasies about what's happening to the hostages for the last 7 months.
I don't think *anyone* in any of these threads thinks that absolutely no sexual assault occurred. Right out of the gate very specific claims were being made, and a great number of those appear to have been debunked as time has passed. "Sexual assault occurred and the perpetrators deserve the Hague" and "Hamas (Palestinians) ((Arabs)), used mass rape as a weapon of war" are two very different claims, but who wants to be the face of picking that nit.
It's created this horrible situation, where Zionists have claimed that level 100 violation is constantly ongoing, and whenever news comes out about the real crimes and suffering hostages or victims of 8/7 comes out, it's not matched against 0, it's matched against what hasbarists have been claiming. From the Zionist perspective, we are vultures picking at details. From our perspective, every news release disproves the wild fantasies Zionists have used to justify genocide.
A recently linked article suggests hostages and survivors don't want to talk because they fear being picked apart in the global media. That's totally reasonable. I do, however, also wonder if perhaps relaying what might be considered an overly sympathetic report, yes, "they were kidnapped and help and starved but not tortured", might not also carry with it similar and more immediate fears.
I think that more extreme Zionists, Kahanists, EV Christians etc, *want* to hear that hostages were tortured and abused. The idea that any of the IDF soldiers in the recent video might have been detained as POWs and not harmed is incredibly threatening to them. (note, if nothing else, restraints that cause bleeding seem like some kinda crime to me, but I don't think that's a good argument for Zionists to make, given, the news).
posted by Audreynachrome at 4:12 AM on May 23 [4 favorites]
I don't think *anyone* in any of these threads thinks that absolutely no sexual assault occurred. Right out of the gate very specific claims were being made, and a great number of those appear to have been debunked as time has passed. "Sexual assault occurred and the perpetrators deserve the Hague" and "Hamas (Palestinians) ((Arabs)), used mass rape as a weapon of war" are two very different claims, but who wants to be the face of picking that nit.
It's created this horrible situation, where Zionists have claimed that level 100 violation is constantly ongoing, and whenever news comes out about the real crimes and suffering hostages or victims of 8/7 comes out, it's not matched against 0, it's matched against what hasbarists have been claiming. From the Zionist perspective, we are vultures picking at details. From our perspective, every news release disproves the wild fantasies Zionists have used to justify genocide.
A recently linked article suggests hostages and survivors don't want to talk because they fear being picked apart in the global media. That's totally reasonable. I do, however, also wonder if perhaps relaying what might be considered an overly sympathetic report, yes, "they were kidnapped and help and starved but not tortured", might not also carry with it similar and more immediate fears.
I think that more extreme Zionists, Kahanists, EV Christians etc, *want* to hear that hostages were tortured and abused. The idea that any of the IDF soldiers in the recent video might have been detained as POWs and not harmed is incredibly threatening to them. (note, if nothing else, restraints that cause bleeding seem like some kinda crime to me, but I don't think that's a good argument for Zionists to make, given, the news).
posted by Audreynachrome at 4:12 AM on May 23 [4 favorites]
Like I am *ALL* for us elevating unreasonable restraint of captives as an issue! Lets do that. It's totally fucked up that cops or soldiers or whatever can tie someone up and let them die or be maimed and call that fine. I really want us to implement that as a rule that gets a person Hagued in this conflict!!!
posted by Audreynachrome at 4:16 AM on May 23 [8 favorites]
posted by Audreynachrome at 4:16 AM on May 23 [8 favorites]
"is there a way to volunteer as an international ICC defence brigade for when the US inevitably tries to storm the hague? I am prepared to learn dutch" @quendergeer
posted by Audreynachrome at 5:09 AM on May 23 [3 favorites]
posted by Audreynachrome at 5:09 AM on May 23 [3 favorites]
"Israeli soldiers set fire [to] Aqsa University’s library in Gaza City and took pictures of themselves in front of the flames."
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 7:42 AM on May 23 [4 favorites]
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 7:42 AM on May 23 [4 favorites]
I've also learned today that individual units of the IDF have their own U.S. lobbying operations
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 9:01 AM on May 23 [6 favorites]
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 9:01 AM on May 23 [6 favorites]
I'm not a native speaker, but I did spend quite a lot of time studying Modern Standard Arabic and the Egyptian dialect, not Levantine /شامي . I was once pretty fluent, but it's been more than a decade since I used it regularly. If they said سبايا then that would be a pretty archaic term and carries islamist/jihadi overtones related to female captives taken by Muslim armies during the period of the conquest. However after talking with some Palestinian folks online they think they said صبية which is the local term for young women used by young men -- much like an English speaker would use "girls" or "chicks".
posted by interogative mood at 9:37 AM on May 23
posted by interogative mood at 9:37 AM on May 23
I appreciate that you reached out to Palestinians, but how did that not occur to you first considering your personal life experiences and connections, and you were ready instead to share material more readily circulating in the illiterate-to-non-fluent circles?
posted by cendawanita at 9:45 AM on May 23 [7 favorites]
posted by cendawanita at 9:45 AM on May 23 [7 favorites]
lmao, we know how
posted by adrienneleigh at 9:51 AM on May 23 [7 favorites]
posted by adrienneleigh at 9:51 AM on May 23 [7 favorites]
Khalil Sayegh: I was talking to a Palestinian Christian from Gaza who had just made it to Cairo, and he told me how the Israeli forces had burned down each apartment in their building except his apartment. Only for him to realize they stayed at his apartment and used his wife's lingerie, leaving very sexual, vulgar writing on the wall in addition to a bunch of condom boxes.
The psychological pain this left on him and his wife cannot be described. We are facing a barbarian enemy that enjoys such a deprived action.
--
The US is trying to rope the EU into managing the Rafah crossing (again). Mairav Zonsvein said that she's heard the same from an Israeli official.
---
Apparently there's a Catholic church still standing and the Pope has took it upon himself to call them daily. Excerpted by MEE, it's from a 60 Minutes interview.
---
The Intercept stuff:
- Conditioning Aid to Israel Would Boost Support for Biden in Key States, New Poll Finds -
In the survey of Democrats and independents in five battleground states, 2 in 5 voters said a ceasefire and conditioning aid would make them more likely to vote for Biden.
- This Undisclosed WhatsApp Vulnerability Lets Governments See Who You Message -
Engineers warned Meta that nations can monitor chats; staff fear Israel is using this trick to pick assassination targets in Gaza.
- An Israeli Company Is Hawking Its Self-Launching Drone System to U.S. Police Departments - A Louisiana sheriff’s department has been testing the drone system, which is already used by the Israeli police and many settlements.
---
+972 stuff:
- ‘The fourth generation remembers’: Nakba commemorated in shadow of Gaza war - Thousands of Palestinian citizens of Israel joined the annual March of Return, with many making connections to the violent displacement in Gaza.
In addition to the ongoing assault on Gaza, this year’s march took place under the oppressive weight of an extreme-right Israeli government. Since coming to power a year and a half ago, this government has slashed budgets for Palestinian communities; continued to neglect the spiraling problem of organized crime and violence; and ramped up house demolitions — most recently with the razing of an entire Bedouin village in the Naqab/Negev last week in order to expand a highway.
Following these demolitions, the High Follow-Up Committee for Arab Citizens — the non-governmental body regarded as the national representative of Israel’s 2 million Palestinian citizens — called on the entire Palestinian public in Israel to participate in the March of Return, even describing their mass participation as a “national test.”
- Cementing its military footprint, Israel is transforming Gaza’s geography - As Israel expands a buffer zone and erects army bases in the Strip, Palestinians fear the permanent loss of their homes and land.
Before October 7, Israel had long maintained a 300-meter buffer zone carved out of Gaza’s territory, and routinely shot and killed Palestinians who entered the area. Only a small number of farmers with approval from the military were allowed into the zone.
This was also the site of the 2018 Great March of Return, where Palestinians gathered every Friday for over a year to call for an end to Israel’s blockade on Gaza and the implementation of their right of return. Protesters were met with fierce violence: over the course of 18 months, Israeli snipers killed 223 Palestinians and injured over 8,000 with live ammunition, including medics and journalists.
Now, Israeli officials claim that massively expanding the buffer zone is necessary for Israelis to return to the towns surrounding the Gaza Strip, which were evacuated after the Hamas-led attacks on October 7. But it also seems to be a strategic move by Israel to strengthen its hand in future negotiations, according to Reham Owda, a political analyst in Gaza.
“On the day after the war, the international community will want to return to negotiating a two-state solution, and if the PA takes over Gaza, it will have to negotiate with Israel for its military to evacuate the buffer zone,” Owda explained. “These areas will have the same fate as those taken by Israel in the West Bank: the Palestinians will have to negotiate in order to get them back.”
- How Israel twists antisemitism claims to project its own crimes onto Palestinians - What Israel and its supporters accuse Palestinians of inciting, Israeli officials are openly declaring, and the Israeli army is prosecuting.
Crucially, the IHRA definition manifests the inversion and projection mechanism by which Israel and its supporters deny Israel’s crimes and attribute them to the Palestinians. One of the definition’s examples states, for instance, that “Denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination” is antisemitic. Yet Israel’s official policy of settlement, occupation, and annexation for the last several decades has denied the Palestinian people their own right to self-determination.
This policy has been intensified under Benjamin Netanyahu, who, in January 2024, publicly vowed to resist any attempt to establish a Palestinian state. The governing coalition’s fundamental guiding principles further declare, echoing the 2018 Jewish Nation-State Law, that “The Jewish people have an exclusive and inalienable right over all areas of the Land of Israel.” As Israel actively thwarts Palestinian self-determination, the IHRA definition inverts and projects this onto the Palestinians themselves, calling it antisemitism.
(...)We therefore suggest interpreting this inversion and projection not only as a classic case of hypocritical double standards against the Palestinians, but also — as is often the case with processes of projection — a defense mechanism of denial. Israel and its supporters cannot confront the state’s oppressive apartheid structure, its delegitimization of the Palestinians, or its genocidal rhetoric and crimes, so they twist these allegations and thrust them onto the Palestinians.
posted by cendawanita at 10:35 AM on May 23 [8 favorites]
The psychological pain this left on him and his wife cannot be described. We are facing a barbarian enemy that enjoys such a deprived action.
--
The US is trying to rope the EU into managing the Rafah crossing (again). Mairav Zonsvein said that she's heard the same from an Israeli official.
---
Apparently there's a Catholic church still standing and the Pope has took it upon himself to call them daily. Excerpted by MEE, it's from a 60 Minutes interview.
---
The Intercept stuff:
- Conditioning Aid to Israel Would Boost Support for Biden in Key States, New Poll Finds -
In the survey of Democrats and independents in five battleground states, 2 in 5 voters said a ceasefire and conditioning aid would make them more likely to vote for Biden.
- This Undisclosed WhatsApp Vulnerability Lets Governments See Who You Message -
Engineers warned Meta that nations can monitor chats; staff fear Israel is using this trick to pick assassination targets in Gaza.
- An Israeli Company Is Hawking Its Self-Launching Drone System to U.S. Police Departments - A Louisiana sheriff’s department has been testing the drone system, which is already used by the Israeli police and many settlements.
---
+972 stuff:
- ‘The fourth generation remembers’: Nakba commemorated in shadow of Gaza war - Thousands of Palestinian citizens of Israel joined the annual March of Return, with many making connections to the violent displacement in Gaza.
In addition to the ongoing assault on Gaza, this year’s march took place under the oppressive weight of an extreme-right Israeli government. Since coming to power a year and a half ago, this government has slashed budgets for Palestinian communities; continued to neglect the spiraling problem of organized crime and violence; and ramped up house demolitions — most recently with the razing of an entire Bedouin village in the Naqab/Negev last week in order to expand a highway.
Following these demolitions, the High Follow-Up Committee for Arab Citizens — the non-governmental body regarded as the national representative of Israel’s 2 million Palestinian citizens — called on the entire Palestinian public in Israel to participate in the March of Return, even describing their mass participation as a “national test.”
- Cementing its military footprint, Israel is transforming Gaza’s geography - As Israel expands a buffer zone and erects army bases in the Strip, Palestinians fear the permanent loss of their homes and land.
Before October 7, Israel had long maintained a 300-meter buffer zone carved out of Gaza’s territory, and routinely shot and killed Palestinians who entered the area. Only a small number of farmers with approval from the military were allowed into the zone.
This was also the site of the 2018 Great March of Return, where Palestinians gathered every Friday for over a year to call for an end to Israel’s blockade on Gaza and the implementation of their right of return. Protesters were met with fierce violence: over the course of 18 months, Israeli snipers killed 223 Palestinians and injured over 8,000 with live ammunition, including medics and journalists.
Now, Israeli officials claim that massively expanding the buffer zone is necessary for Israelis to return to the towns surrounding the Gaza Strip, which were evacuated after the Hamas-led attacks on October 7. But it also seems to be a strategic move by Israel to strengthen its hand in future negotiations, according to Reham Owda, a political analyst in Gaza.
“On the day after the war, the international community will want to return to negotiating a two-state solution, and if the PA takes over Gaza, it will have to negotiate with Israel for its military to evacuate the buffer zone,” Owda explained. “These areas will have the same fate as those taken by Israel in the West Bank: the Palestinians will have to negotiate in order to get them back.”
- How Israel twists antisemitism claims to project its own crimes onto Palestinians - What Israel and its supporters accuse Palestinians of inciting, Israeli officials are openly declaring, and the Israeli army is prosecuting.
Crucially, the IHRA definition manifests the inversion and projection mechanism by which Israel and its supporters deny Israel’s crimes and attribute them to the Palestinians. One of the definition’s examples states, for instance, that “Denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination” is antisemitic. Yet Israel’s official policy of settlement, occupation, and annexation for the last several decades has denied the Palestinian people their own right to self-determination.
This policy has been intensified under Benjamin Netanyahu, who, in January 2024, publicly vowed to resist any attempt to establish a Palestinian state. The governing coalition’s fundamental guiding principles further declare, echoing the 2018 Jewish Nation-State Law, that “The Jewish people have an exclusive and inalienable right over all areas of the Land of Israel.” As Israel actively thwarts Palestinian self-determination, the IHRA definition inverts and projects this onto the Palestinians themselves, calling it antisemitism.
(...)We therefore suggest interpreting this inversion and projection not only as a classic case of hypocritical double standards against the Palestinians, but also — as is often the case with processes of projection — a defense mechanism of denial. Israel and its supporters cannot confront the state’s oppressive apartheid structure, its delegitimization of the Palestinians, or its genocidal rhetoric and crimes, so they twist these allegations and thrust them onto the Palestinians.
posted by cendawanita at 10:35 AM on May 23 [8 favorites]
but how did that not occur to you first considering your personal life experiences and connections, and you were ready instead to share material more readily circulating in the illiterate-to-non-fluent circles
I had no reason to question the transcription provided in the tweet by an Al Jazeera journalist, but I disagreed with their attempt to spin it as just "captives". I knew that the word was one used by ISIS to justify actions against female Zaidi captives. I also know that Hamas and ISIS are not allies and do not like each other but they are both born out of the Suni salafist/jihadi traditions tracing their roots back to the writings of Sayyid Qutb. Their differences tend to be less about ideology and more about who should be in charge and of course ISIS is fighting Iran/Hezbollah, while Hamas receives most of its backing from those groups.
posted by interogative mood at 11:36 AM on May 23 [1 favorite]
I had no reason to question the transcription provided in the tweet by an Al Jazeera journalist, but I disagreed with their attempt to spin it as just "captives". I knew that the word was one used by ISIS to justify actions against female Zaidi captives. I also know that Hamas and ISIS are not allies and do not like each other but they are both born out of the Suni salafist/jihadi traditions tracing their roots back to the writings of Sayyid Qutb. Their differences tend to be less about ideology and more about who should be in charge and of course ISIS is fighting Iran/Hezbollah, while Hamas receives most of its backing from those groups.
posted by interogative mood at 11:36 AM on May 23 [1 favorite]
I also note that Saeed mentions several other mistranslations in the video's subtitles—none of which you even acknowledged, preferring to defend only one of the bad translations, and on the basis of "no trust me, they really are rapists".
posted by adrienneleigh at 1:40 PM on May 23 [2 favorites]
posted by adrienneleigh at 1:40 PM on May 23 [2 favorites]
This implication of sexual violence via some linguistic or ideological connection to ISIS seems pretty tenuous. I think it's worth repeating just this point from an interview with Tareq Baconi:
Having said all of that, the war crimes that were committed on October 7 were different in the sense that they were within community centers and civilian centers of Israelis, but Hamas has committed war crimes in the past. Suicide bombings are also brutal. Hamas has not shied away in the past from using armed resistance as a form of weapon. The problem in this instance is not just the focus on the war crimes, which obviously Israeli also consistently carries out against Palestinians with no retribution. The problem is the war crimes that happened were then turned into the most brutal, sensationalist forms of violence— beheading babies, the use of rape as a systematic weapon of war, using tropes that have been debunked repeatedly since October 7 but that continue to be used by politicians. That is looking at Hamas in an ISIS-like way is a form of enabling the genocide that's happening.
posted by i like crows very much at 2:35 PM on May 23 [4 favorites]
Having said all of that, the war crimes that were committed on October 7 were different in the sense that they were within community centers and civilian centers of Israelis, but Hamas has committed war crimes in the past. Suicide bombings are also brutal. Hamas has not shied away in the past from using armed resistance as a form of weapon. The problem in this instance is not just the focus on the war crimes, which obviously Israeli also consistently carries out against Palestinians with no retribution. The problem is the war crimes that happened were then turned into the most brutal, sensationalist forms of violence— beheading babies, the use of rape as a systematic weapon of war, using tropes that have been debunked repeatedly since October 7 but that continue to be used by politicians. That is looking at Hamas in an ISIS-like way is a form of enabling the genocide that's happening.
posted by i like crows very much at 2:35 PM on May 23 [4 favorites]
The problem is the war crimes that happened were then turned into the most brutal, sensationalist forms of violence— beheading babies, the use of rape as a systematic weapon of war
This has particularly bothered me from the get-go because, of course, these are also war crimes which are constantly committed by Israelis against Palestinians (and their supporters) without any criticism whatsoever.
posted by adrienneleigh at 2:41 PM on May 23 [1 favorite]
This has particularly bothered me from the get-go because, of course, these are also war crimes which are constantly committed by Israelis against Palestinians (and their supporters) without any criticism whatsoever.
posted by adrienneleigh at 2:41 PM on May 23 [1 favorite]
interrogative mood, I'm not trying to get at anybody necessarily but consider the mental framing, even as you try to be fair. At best and at most you can point out to, "both born out of the Suni salafist/jihadi traditions tracing their roots back to the writings of Sayyid Qutb", but everything practical, both from strategy, funding, and purpose, you yourself say Hamas isn't even a mild frenemy, but actively and practically is not an ally. The translation issue hinges on a particularly specific ISIS practice and interpretation of a word, a practical matter. Can you not see the bias? If you yourself say in practical terms bringing ISIS is an irrelevance, and you are probably aware Israel hasbara would very much like to dwell on the supposed equivalence, then why are you giving face to that reading?
The presentation of that video also reminds me the continual erasure of their identities as soldiers, who were caught at their duty station - out of everyone caught up on that day, those soldiers were closer to the combatant status than the concertgoers. But Israel would rather weaponise their gender in memory and in sexism rather than acknowledge the fact that colonial feminism made them an active part of being a belligerent occupation force.
posted by cendawanita at 3:11 PM on May 23 [5 favorites]
The presentation of that video also reminds me the continual erasure of their identities as soldiers, who were caught at their duty station - out of everyone caught up on that day, those soldiers were closer to the combatant status than the concertgoers. But Israel would rather weaponise their gender in memory and in sexism rather than acknowledge the fact that colonial feminism made them an active part of being a belligerent occupation force.
posted by cendawanita at 3:11 PM on May 23 [5 favorites]
I’m merely responding to the one that was highlighted that I had some direct knowledge about. I don’t have a twitter account anymore and I don’t see full timelines.
It took me a while to find the raw video, but the Jerusalem Post has it if anyone needs to watch it. My opinion is that obviously Israel has edited the footage and transcribed it for maximum impact. The audio quality is garbage with lots of people taking over each other and shouting. Even the conversation in English between a captor and captive is difficult to hear. I thought about downloading it, stripping the audio, breaking into segments and attempting to do my own probably shitty transcript; but watching it once was enough for me. I don’t need to see or hear it again.
My attempt at a less inflammatory summary is: Terrified women who are restrained and begging, lots of armed men, lots of shouting. Some of the men are celebrating their success. Body language and near contact by the men toward the captives that could be interpreted as sexual; but maybe just the usual threatening of captives to keep them compliant.
That being said the ICC arrest warrant request for Hamas and Israeli leaders should leave little doubt that rape and sexual assault of captives by both Israel and Hamas is happening.
posted by interogative mood at 3:13 PM on May 23
It took me a while to find the raw video, but the Jerusalem Post has it if anyone needs to watch it. My opinion is that obviously Israel has edited the footage and transcribed it for maximum impact. The audio quality is garbage with lots of people taking over each other and shouting. Even the conversation in English between a captor and captive is difficult to hear. I thought about downloading it, stripping the audio, breaking into segments and attempting to do my own probably shitty transcript; but watching it once was enough for me. I don’t need to see or hear it again.
My attempt at a less inflammatory summary is: Terrified women who are restrained and begging, lots of armed men, lots of shouting. Some of the men are celebrating their success. Body language and near contact by the men toward the captives that could be interpreted as sexual; but maybe just the usual threatening of captives to keep them compliant.
That being said the ICC arrest warrant request for Hamas and Israeli leaders should leave little doubt that rape and sexual assault of captives by both Israel and Hamas is happening.
posted by interogative mood at 3:13 PM on May 23
Can i just say that i hate the way absolutely everyone keeps framing them as "Terrified women who are restrained and begging"? I mean, they are that, sure; but they are also soldiers, they were captured on duty, out of all the fucking hostages these are actually legitimate prisoners of war.
And Israel really, really loves to do this Schrödinger's soldiers thing, where their people are fierce soldiers defending their country right up until someone shoots at them or whatever, at which point they are terrified teenagers. I mean, they are both, but whose fucking fault is that? It's not the fault of the Al-Qassam Brigades that Israel conscripts its teenagers to die!
posted by adrienneleigh at 3:59 PM on May 23 [15 favorites]
And Israel really, really loves to do this Schrödinger's soldiers thing, where their people are fierce soldiers defending their country right up until someone shoots at them or whatever, at which point they are terrified teenagers. I mean, they are both, but whose fucking fault is that? It's not the fault of the Al-Qassam Brigades that Israel conscripts its teenagers to die!
posted by adrienneleigh at 3:59 PM on May 23 [15 favorites]
Obviously if Hamas has mistreated their prisoners of war, sexually or otherwise, that is a war crime and i condemn it in the strongest possible terms. But there's absolutely zero evidence of any war crimes in this particular video; this is a capture of soldiers by soldiers. So no, i actually have very little sympathy for a garrison of soldiers maintaining an illegal occupation and blockade, and i resent the idea that i'm supposed to just because some of them are women.
posted by adrienneleigh at 4:04 PM on May 23 [11 favorites]
posted by adrienneleigh at 4:04 PM on May 23 [11 favorites]
You know, on a lighter note, this reminds me of Bill Burr roasting Bill Maher's geopolitical analysis
There are lots of people like Bill Maher whose egos are bound up in being clear-eyed experts. The Bill Mahers of this world will never be accountable for their behavior. If they admitted they were wrong, it would completely shatter their sense of self. It's pathetic, really. Worthy of ridicule.
posted by i like crows very much at 4:24 PM on May 23 [9 favorites]
There are lots of people like Bill Maher whose egos are bound up in being clear-eyed experts. The Bill Mahers of this world will never be accountable for their behavior. If they admitted they were wrong, it would completely shatter their sense of self. It's pathetic, really. Worthy of ridicule.
posted by i like crows very much at 4:24 PM on May 23 [9 favorites]
The thread about US protests got closed and i'm too lazy to make a new one right now, but Edan On has been arrested in California. He was one of the instigators caught on video during the assault on the UCLA encampment by pro-Israel counterprotestors.
posted by adrienneleigh at 12:55 AM on May 24 [11 favorites]
posted by adrienneleigh at 12:55 AM on May 24 [11 favorites]
My attempt at a less inflammatory summary is: Terrified women who are restrained and begging, lots of armed men, lots of shouting. Some of the men are celebrating their success.
Have you ever had feelings like this when you watch the clips of jeering IDF soldiers making random Palestinian men perform at gunpoint? We *know* that the IDF are going to torture them, rape them, set dogs on them, permanently cripple them. They're also civilians, unlike the IDF soldiers above.
But the IDF PoWs, that's what arouses your sympathy so strongly that the least inflammatory characterisation possible for you is one that completely infantilises these trained, professional soldiers, who thought killing Palestinians was a much more attractive choice than refusing the draft?
Do you have any thoughts on why that might be?
posted by Audreynachrome at 1:04 AM on May 24 [9 favorites]
Have you ever had feelings like this when you watch the clips of jeering IDF soldiers making random Palestinian men perform at gunpoint? We *know* that the IDF are going to torture them, rape them, set dogs on them, permanently cripple them. They're also civilians, unlike the IDF soldiers above.
But the IDF PoWs, that's what arouses your sympathy so strongly that the least inflammatory characterisation possible for you is one that completely infantilises these trained, professional soldiers, who thought killing Palestinians was a much more attractive choice than refusing the draft?
Do you have any thoughts on why that might be?
posted by Audreynachrome at 1:04 AM on May 24 [9 favorites]
Adam Tooze: Chartbook 284 Gaza: "the decade after" - the surreal geoeconomic imaginary of Netanyahu's "economic peace"
As in many previous historical instances, it will be total destruction that clears the way for the rebirth of Gaza in his historical role, as a key Mediterranean entrepôt. As Netanyahu himself observes, Gaza 2035 entails “rebuilding from nothing”. That void is what the IDF is creating with its daily work of destruction.posted by kmt at 2:50 AM on May 24 [3 favorites]
A tabula rasa is, literally translated, a scraped tablet. After the scraping being done by the Israeli military will come the building of energy systems (oil and gas rigs and solar panels) and infrastructure (ports, airports and railways) that will move Gaza “from crisis to prosperity.”
And Netanyahu is thinking big. If what he euphemistically refers to as a “Marshall Plan” in Gaza is successful, a similar model could be applied throughout the crisis-ridden region. Administered free trade zones set within regional political mandates could be constructed in “Yemen, Syria, and Lebanon.”
10/10, no notes
posted by cendawanita at 3:26 AM on May 24 [3 favorites]
10/10, no notes
posted by cendawanita at 3:26 AM on May 24 [3 favorites]
Looking forward to more twisting and turning (esp since earlier Biden reassured some of his constituents that there's been no genocide)- Craig Mokhiber: BREAKING: The #ICJ has just ruled in favor of additional provisional measures in the
#Genocide case against Israel, ordering Israel to immediately halt its military offensive and other activities in Rafah & to allow aid & genocide investigators in. #Palestine
The decision to was supported by almost all judges. Only Sebutinde (the Ugandan judge who always votes in favor of Israel)
and Barak (the Israeli ad hoc judge) voted against. Barak was absent from the courtroom.
posted by cendawanita at 6:47 AM on May 24 [7 favorites]
#Genocide case against Israel, ordering Israel to immediately halt its military offensive and other activities in Rafah & to allow aid & genocide investigators in. #Palestine
The decision to was supported by almost all judges. Only Sebutinde (the Ugandan judge who always votes in favor of Israel)
and Barak (the Israeli ad hoc judge) voted against. Barak was absent from the courtroom.
posted by cendawanita at 6:47 AM on May 24 [7 favorites]
Mod note: One comment removed. Please remember to speak for yourself and not others, per the Guidelines and avoid attacking or denigrating other members of the community.
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 7:24 AM on May 24 [3 favorites]
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 7:24 AM on May 24 [3 favorites]
Not Bibi: (MEE) Benny Gantz says Israel will continue fighting in Rafah despite ICJ ruling
Israeli war cabinet minister Benny Gantz told US Secretary of State Antony Blinken that Israel has no intention of following a ruling by the UN’s top court, and will continue fighting in Rafah.
Gantz said Israel is “obligated to continue fighting to return its hostages and ensure the safety of its citizens, at any time and place - including in Rafah”.
Despite vowing to disregard the ICJ’s ruling to stop fighting in the city, Gantz said Israel is acting according to international law.
International Law according to...? Never mind, don't try to answer that. If there's no movement from the Western governments on anything approaching sanctions, then good luck trying to corrall international consensus on other matters.
posted by cendawanita at 11:15 AM on May 24 [8 favorites]
Israeli war cabinet minister Benny Gantz told US Secretary of State Antony Blinken that Israel has no intention of following a ruling by the UN’s top court, and will continue fighting in Rafah.
Gantz said Israel is “obligated to continue fighting to return its hostages and ensure the safety of its citizens, at any time and place - including in Rafah”.
Despite vowing to disregard the ICJ’s ruling to stop fighting in the city, Gantz said Israel is acting according to international law.
International Law according to...? Never mind, don't try to answer that. If there's no movement from the Western governments on anything approaching sanctions, then good luck trying to corrall international consensus on other matters.
posted by cendawanita at 11:15 AM on May 24 [8 favorites]
International Law according to...?
International law according to the USA, where Israel always has carte blanche to commit crimes with impunity because the USA will always veto any vote in the UN Security Council against Israel.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 12:44 PM on May 24 [4 favorites]
Just making sure we all remember this is the same USA that had Nelson Mandela on a terrorist watch list until 2008. (via Time)
The US is not known for being on the right side of history (except in its own capitalist financed publications).
posted by CPAnarchist at 3:14 PM on May 24 [8 favorites]
The US is not known for being on the right side of history (except in its own capitalist financed publications).
posted by CPAnarchist at 3:14 PM on May 24 [8 favorites]
Have you ever had feelings like this when you watch the clips of jeering IDF soldiers
I haven’t just seen the clips, I’ve seen it up close. Ive been tear gassed by the IDF during a peaceful protest. I saw the IDF shoot a Palestinian in Bethlehem and had to run for my life and hide in a convent until the violence ended. I’ve worked with Palestinian teens, seen their scars from beatings and heard their stories. I’ve heard the stories of now old men who experienced the Nabka.
I have empathy for the Palestinians. I’ve been a supporter of a free Palestine for 30 years. I’ve contributed my time and money to helping the cause of peace.
I disagree with the Hamas apologetics and leftist rhetoric/framing. This seems to have marked me in the eyes of some as a Likkudnik.
Perhaps all there is to show for my very minor, almost insignificant efforts is a few more kilos in a ruble pile where a clinic was once stood in Gaza. The war will end, we will clear the ruble and help rebuild. What will you do?
posted by interogative mood at 4:44 PM on May 24 [1 favorite]
I haven’t just seen the clips, I’ve seen it up close. Ive been tear gassed by the IDF during a peaceful protest. I saw the IDF shoot a Palestinian in Bethlehem and had to run for my life and hide in a convent until the violence ended. I’ve worked with Palestinian teens, seen their scars from beatings and heard their stories. I’ve heard the stories of now old men who experienced the Nabka.
I have empathy for the Palestinians. I’ve been a supporter of a free Palestine for 30 years. I’ve contributed my time and money to helping the cause of peace.
I disagree with the Hamas apologetics and leftist rhetoric/framing. This seems to have marked me in the eyes of some as a Likkudnik.
Perhaps all there is to show for my very minor, almost insignificant efforts is a few more kilos in a ruble pile where a clinic was once stood in Gaza. The war will end, we will clear the ruble and help rebuild. What will you do?
posted by interogative mood at 4:44 PM on May 24 [1 favorite]
"leftist"
posted by sagc at 4:57 PM on May 24 [7 favorites]
posted by sagc at 4:57 PM on May 24 [7 favorites]
who is "we"? who will you be rebuilding for?
posted by sagc at 4:59 PM on May 24 [3 favorites]
posted by sagc at 4:59 PM on May 24 [3 favorites]
finally, you may think people are being unfair to you, but pretty much everyone you're talking to now has been interacting with you, in detail, for months now. there is a pattern here that people are responding to.
posted by sagc at 5:00 PM on May 24 [10 favorites]
posted by sagc at 5:00 PM on May 24 [10 favorites]
The thing is, we're now at a point of history where the political centre has shifted so much to the right that a skepticism against leftist viewpoints doesn't practically serve anything but in service of fascist institutional tendencies or at the very least illiberal norms. It's not doing Palestinians any favours if trying to be skeptical of Hamas (which is a valid choice) lands your thinking that repeats anti-Arab or specifically anti-Palestinian racist points. it's not doing them any favours if in trying to be liberal enough to plead for mainstream normative conduct if that conduct means the state institutions representing the mainstream would prefer that this to mean there should be no recourse to any self-determination ever, a not-at-all hyperbolic claim in this historical moment. You can't try to reason using a deranged party's metrics simply because that's the party whose access to violence is considered acceptable (being a state), and not just in weaponry but also rhetoric.
posted by cendawanita at 5:40 PM on May 24 [8 favorites]
posted by cendawanita at 5:40 PM on May 24 [8 favorites]
who is "we"? who will you be rebuilding for?
The orphans, permanently maimed, the widows, widowers, and the survivors who have to live with the consequences of the violence that promised liberation but only delivered destruction and death once again.
posted by interogative mood at 5:41 PM on May 24
The orphans, permanently maimed, the widows, widowers, and the survivors who have to live with the consequences of the violence that promised liberation but only delivered destruction and death once again.
posted by interogative mood at 5:41 PM on May 24
It's not doing Palestinians any favours if trying to be skeptical of Hamas (which is a valid choice) lands your thinking that repeats anti-Arab or specifically anti-Palestinian racist points.
Happy to discuss this with you over memail, if you have specific concerns about comments I've made. This sounds like a variant of the "any criticism of Israel is anti-semtism".
posted by interogative mood at 5:46 PM on May 24
Happy to discuss this with you over memail, if you have specific concerns about comments I've made. This sounds like a variant of the "any criticism of Israel is anti-semtism".
posted by interogative mood at 5:46 PM on May 24
instead of people doing the legwork to explain things yet again, perhaps you could reread people's responses to you? again, everyone is capable of reviewing your comments in these threads, including you.
no comment on the substance of the above; saying you've been repeating racist talking points is not the same as claiming that all criticisms of Hamas are racist.
were I to venture comment, though, I'd point out that this is yet another example of either an inability or unwillingness to understand what people are actually criticizing.
posted by sagc at 6:17 PM on May 24 [9 favorites]
no comment on the substance of the above; saying you've been repeating racist talking points is not the same as claiming that all criticisms of Hamas are racist.
were I to venture comment, though, I'd point out that this is yet another example of either an inability or unwillingness to understand what people are actually criticizing.
posted by sagc at 6:17 PM on May 24 [9 favorites]
The orphans, permanently maimed, the widows, widowers, and the survivors who have to live with the consequences of the violence that promised liberation but only delivered destruction and death once again.
I'm sorry, which djinn is currently sitting on the neck of the actual nation-state here that's making them do this? Because notably by degree what more kind, who's exacting this violence? Who's been saying no to ANY agreement even from October?
Here's my contention without even having to be an anarchist or electoral leftist: a balanced sympathy would NOT place the same burden of responsibility between an occupying state and an oppressed people, and the state knows this, and takes every opportunity to deny them the ability to assume the same locus of power. The state knows this. I have levied my most practical judgment on the party that can assume responsibility. If you are that sorry for the Palestinians you have ever met without examining the state that has consistently refused to see them as people then it's like the same westerners I meet in my line of work who has a critical empathy blindspot because the predisposition to establishment power which in our current design, still colonial. Chris Hedges for example, can seem to have similar experiences but somehow have a more substantive critique of power. Appealing to your past experiences mean little to me, only because I've experienced its paucity in assigning responsibility.
Anyway I don't have to take it to memail, the last round that has to do with favouring mistranslations because it's salient to your position without you taking pause how it repeats racist tropes is sufficient for all to consider.
posted by cendawanita at 6:44 PM on May 24 [12 favorites]
I'm sorry, which djinn is currently sitting on the neck of the actual nation-state here that's making them do this? Because notably by degree what more kind, who's exacting this violence? Who's been saying no to ANY agreement even from October?
Here's my contention without even having to be an anarchist or electoral leftist: a balanced sympathy would NOT place the same burden of responsibility between an occupying state and an oppressed people, and the state knows this, and takes every opportunity to deny them the ability to assume the same locus of power. The state knows this. I have levied my most practical judgment on the party that can assume responsibility. If you are that sorry for the Palestinians you have ever met without examining the state that has consistently refused to see them as people then it's like the same westerners I meet in my line of work who has a critical empathy blindspot because the predisposition to establishment power which in our current design, still colonial. Chris Hedges for example, can seem to have similar experiences but somehow have a more substantive critique of power. Appealing to your past experiences mean little to me, only because I've experienced its paucity in assigning responsibility.
Anyway I don't have to take it to memail, the last round that has to do with favouring mistranslations because it's salient to your position without you taking pause how it repeats racist tropes is sufficient for all to consider.
posted by cendawanita at 6:44 PM on May 24 [12 favorites]
"the violence that promised liberation" is a pretty strange way to describe Israeli bombs. 🤔
posted by sagc at 6:54 PM on May 24 [9 favorites]
posted by sagc at 6:54 PM on May 24 [9 favorites]
1. There are plenty enough centrists and liberals in the global south, or rather the global majority, you can consider in this larger conversation without having to assume we/they are all red leftists
2. Consider your passport and economic reach and ask why you can clap your chest and talk up your lived experiences and people like me at best can only do remote work.
posted by cendawanita at 6:54 PM on May 24 [6 favorites]
2. Consider your passport and economic reach and ask why you can clap your chest and talk up your lived experiences and people like me at best can only do remote work.
posted by cendawanita at 6:54 PM on May 24 [6 favorites]
the survivors who have to live with the consequences of the violence that promised liberation but only delivered destruction and death
So i-m, what's your proposed path to Palestinian liberation? Or is it your position that they will just never be free?
posted by adrienneleigh at 7:23 PM on May 24 [2 favorites]
So i-m, what's your proposed path to Palestinian liberation? Or is it your position that they will just never be free?
posted by adrienneleigh at 7:23 PM on May 24 [2 favorites]
I'm sorry, which djinn is currently sitting on the neck of the actual nation-state here that's making them do this?
You think I'm racist and that's your metaphor ...A djinn sitting on the neck-- good grief. As for the underlying sentiment expressed -- this has been discussed previously . I believe that part of the responsibility for this horror must be laid at the feet of Hamas' leaders. The knew how Israel/Netanyahu would retaliate and they went ahead with it. That isn't an excuse for Israel, but I understand you interpret it that way.
Because notably by degree what more kind, who's exacting this violence?
The fact that the consequences are so unbalanced has made me strongly opposed to actions like October 7th or rocket attacks and other attacks by Hamas. I understand why some justify those actions. I understand the frustration and rage that causes people to participate in it, and even celebrate it. It hasn't worked, it will never work and it just ends up getting a lot of people killed.
Who's been saying no to ANY agreement even from October?
The statement that Israel has said no to any agreement is not true. There was the November 13th agreement for a ceasefire and hostage swap, followed by the November 22nd agreement for more exchanges. That fell apart on December 1st with rockets and fighting resuming before the truce had even ended. There was also the May 6th agreement that they agreed to and then got screwed up by Egypt in the handoff to Hamas (maybe, although perhaps there will be more reporting). The negotiators are back at it in Egypt at the moment.
Before this latest nightmare started, do you know many truces and ceasefire agreements there have been? Israel and Hamas' leaders seem to barely wait for the ink to dry before they start finding ways to undermine them. There was a ceasefire in place on October 7th. The existence of that ceasefire doesn't excuse Israels response. It isn't meant to ignore the many things they did to undermine that ceasefire.
Moving on to a different comment by someone else.
So i-m, what's your proposed path to Palestinian liberation? Or is it your position that they will just never be free?
That's a question for Hamas, because they are the ones with the ability pick the path for the Palestinians at this time. I think the path taken from the start of the second Intifada to the October 7th attacks has been the wrong direction, if the destination is a free Palestine. The settlements expanded and tens of thousands of Palestinians died in multiple rounds of bombardment from Israel.
posted by interogative mood at 11:09 PM on May 24
You think I'm racist and that's your metaphor ...A djinn sitting on the neck-- good grief. As for the underlying sentiment expressed -- this has been discussed previously . I believe that part of the responsibility for this horror must be laid at the feet of Hamas' leaders. The knew how Israel/Netanyahu would retaliate and they went ahead with it. That isn't an excuse for Israel, but I understand you interpret it that way.
Because notably by degree what more kind, who's exacting this violence?
The fact that the consequences are so unbalanced has made me strongly opposed to actions like October 7th or rocket attacks and other attacks by Hamas. I understand why some justify those actions. I understand the frustration and rage that causes people to participate in it, and even celebrate it. It hasn't worked, it will never work and it just ends up getting a lot of people killed.
Who's been saying no to ANY agreement even from October?
The statement that Israel has said no to any agreement is not true. There was the November 13th agreement for a ceasefire and hostage swap, followed by the November 22nd agreement for more exchanges. That fell apart on December 1st with rockets and fighting resuming before the truce had even ended. There was also the May 6th agreement that they agreed to and then got screwed up by Egypt in the handoff to Hamas (maybe, although perhaps there will be more reporting). The negotiators are back at it in Egypt at the moment.
Before this latest nightmare started, do you know many truces and ceasefire agreements there have been? Israel and Hamas' leaders seem to barely wait for the ink to dry before they start finding ways to undermine them. There was a ceasefire in place on October 7th. The existence of that ceasefire doesn't excuse Israels response. It isn't meant to ignore the many things they did to undermine that ceasefire.
Moving on to a different comment by someone else.
So i-m, what's your proposed path to Palestinian liberation? Or is it your position that they will just never be free?
That's a question for Hamas, because they are the ones with the ability pick the path for the Palestinians at this time. I think the path taken from the start of the second Intifada to the October 7th attacks has been the wrong direction, if the destination is a free Palestine. The settlements expanded and tens of thousands of Palestinians died in multiple rounds of bombardment from Israel.
posted by interogative mood at 11:09 PM on May 24
The djinn thing isn't a metaphor, but my native proverbial language used in translation - ymmv how you think if that's strange.
I can see where we disagree and it continues to be relevant, our respective national backgrounds because fundamentally: It hasn't worked, it will never work and it just ends up getting a lot of people killed.
First half isn't true if you look at postcolonial histories, even Israel's founding where provided the state power they're warring against finds the war no longer feasible (politically and economically which then impacts logistically), an eventual truce and new formation ('independence') resulted. All the details you're listing need to be foregrounded against the status quo where Palestine cannot exist as a state from the pov of Israel because its security ethos has dictated it to be such, and critically, an ethos that is agreed by or tolerated by other states. Israel is and has been throwing everything it can, and critically this time, its habitude is being supported by an equally ideological US for reasons previously covered even if not completely agreed or conceded.
Deaths will continue, again, if you look at the status quo as permanent but they aren't. It becomes and remains violent when the policing of the status quo escapes the hall of diplomacy, which is where we are now. You want to say, well it's Hamas who should lay down their arms, because as you assert, this can never succeed? Ok - now tell that to the Irish and the South Africans, and even then, as I said, the success wasn't just because the IRA and ANC kept going but because the state they're battling found themselves footing a bill they can no longer pay. Part of the imbalance of power dynamics is going to be bitter to swallow, which is that the one who needs to be "bigger person" continues to be the one with the state power. The other side is basically Rocky in the first movie - they don't have to win the title, they just have to stay standing. That's why fighting guerrilla wars leaves states at the backfoot from the very start unless there's total domination, which again, Israel has been trying to do, but history cannot look at them kindly because this kind of Great Man History stuff only works when it works otherwise you're just the damn fool who decided to be Goliath this round. Israel doesn't get to play the plucky note, hasn't been able to for a while now and now they're just shambling into a situation where the population is half-deranged by conspiracies and racism while their badly trained military is picked off one by one by someone running around in sandals.
Yet, how is Hamas "winning" exactly except as the wartime flank (taking the longterm historical view) of Palestine because statehood recognition, ICC warrants, the UN presence, these are all instruments handled by Fatah/PA? It's in the interest of the non-lunatic side of the Western order to keep this in view, but again, Palestinians are synonymous with Hamas are synonymous with terrorists who deserve death. Because if not, then explain what the fuck is Israel doing killing, plundering, and stealing in the West Bank and East Jerusalem as well?
None of what I'm saying is radical polisci or even counterinsurgency stuff but as long as people can't let go the fantasy of the Israel of their ideals they cannot cope with the implications. The ball hasn't been in Hamas's court or any Palestinian's court since 1948 what more 1967. Israel wants the belligerent occupation force role so bad, now they have to live with the consequences. But they can't because global norms needed to leave behind the thinking that led to WW2 (and their Zionism!), so for all the generations of Palestinians who have been made stateless, limbless, and lifeless, Europe's greatest curse has continued to be the making of Jewish people the monsters of their racism or objects of their salvation. Even Jewish people aren't people here and it burns me to see Jewish people continuing to be bamboozled so badly by people who invented shit like blood libel because they don't know how to live with other cultures.
posted by cendawanita at 11:48 PM on May 24 [10 favorites]
I can see where we disagree and it continues to be relevant, our respective national backgrounds because fundamentally: It hasn't worked, it will never work and it just ends up getting a lot of people killed.
First half isn't true if you look at postcolonial histories, even Israel's founding where provided the state power they're warring against finds the war no longer feasible (politically and economically which then impacts logistically), an eventual truce and new formation ('independence') resulted. All the details you're listing need to be foregrounded against the status quo where Palestine cannot exist as a state from the pov of Israel because its security ethos has dictated it to be such, and critically, an ethos that is agreed by or tolerated by other states. Israel is and has been throwing everything it can, and critically this time, its habitude is being supported by an equally ideological US for reasons previously covered even if not completely agreed or conceded.
Deaths will continue, again, if you look at the status quo as permanent but they aren't. It becomes and remains violent when the policing of the status quo escapes the hall of diplomacy, which is where we are now. You want to say, well it's Hamas who should lay down their arms, because as you assert, this can never succeed? Ok - now tell that to the Irish and the South Africans, and even then, as I said, the success wasn't just because the IRA and ANC kept going but because the state they're battling found themselves footing a bill they can no longer pay. Part of the imbalance of power dynamics is going to be bitter to swallow, which is that the one who needs to be "bigger person" continues to be the one with the state power. The other side is basically Rocky in the first movie - they don't have to win the title, they just have to stay standing. That's why fighting guerrilla wars leaves states at the backfoot from the very start unless there's total domination, which again, Israel has been trying to do, but history cannot look at them kindly because this kind of Great Man History stuff only works when it works otherwise you're just the damn fool who decided to be Goliath this round. Israel doesn't get to play the plucky note, hasn't been able to for a while now and now they're just shambling into a situation where the population is half-deranged by conspiracies and racism while their badly trained military is picked off one by one by someone running around in sandals.
Yet, how is Hamas "winning" exactly except as the wartime flank (taking the longterm historical view) of Palestine because statehood recognition, ICC warrants, the UN presence, these are all instruments handled by Fatah/PA? It's in the interest of the non-lunatic side of the Western order to keep this in view, but again, Palestinians are synonymous with Hamas are synonymous with terrorists who deserve death. Because if not, then explain what the fuck is Israel doing killing, plundering, and stealing in the West Bank and East Jerusalem as well?
None of what I'm saying is radical polisci or even counterinsurgency stuff but as long as people can't let go the fantasy of the Israel of their ideals they cannot cope with the implications. The ball hasn't been in Hamas's court or any Palestinian's court since 1948 what more 1967. Israel wants the belligerent occupation force role so bad, now they have to live with the consequences. But they can't because global norms needed to leave behind the thinking that led to WW2 (and their Zionism!), so for all the generations of Palestinians who have been made stateless, limbless, and lifeless, Europe's greatest curse has continued to be the making of Jewish people the monsters of their racism or objects of their salvation. Even Jewish people aren't people here and it burns me to see Jewish people continuing to be bamboozled so badly by people who invented shit like blood libel because they don't know how to live with other cultures.
posted by cendawanita at 11:48 PM on May 24 [10 favorites]
saying you've been repeating racist talking points is not the same as claiming that all criticisms of Hamas are racist.
Likewise, identifying and objecting to standard racist talking points and/or standard racist framings does not amount to endorsement of Hamas.
Nor does objecting to Israel's ongoing and egregious violations of international humanitarian law, violations which it has been perpetrating with impunity since before it was even recognized as a nation state, and which on any fair analysis are the entire reason for Hamas's viability as an organization potent enough to be noteworthy.
Publicly deploring Israel's monstrous, casual, ongoing brutality does not imply support for Hamas's violence in response to that brutality. Nor does responding to Israel's endlessly asserted "right to defend itself" by pointing out that the right to resist military occupation, by means up to and including organized armed struggle, is far better supported by international law. Nor does pointing out that Israel has a consistent record not only of systematically and brutally shutting down all attempts to resist its occupation by non-violent means, but also of taking actions calculated to provoke violent responses.
This is not about "picking sides". There are no "sides". There is an ongoing condition of violent oppression perpetrated over decades by a nation-state that has the power to stop it, with the consistent backing of the global hegemon, and it needs to end. "You're either with us or with the terrorists" is just another horseshit right-wing framing, not a view that any reasonable person ought to subscribe to.
That's a question for Hamas, because they are the ones with the ability pick the path for the Palestinians at this time. I think the path taken from the start of the second Intifada to the October 7th attacks has been the wrong direction, if the destination is a free Palestine. The settlements expanded and tens of thousands of Palestinians died in multiple rounds of bombardment from Israel.
This is sophistry worthy of Dershowitz.
It doesn't matter what path you pick when setting foot on any of them gets you murdered by Israeli snipers.
As for careful use of the passive voice to cast two different forms of Israeli atrocity as somehow akin to the operation of the law of gravity: do you honestly not understand how fucked up that is?
posted by flabdablet at 12:16 AM on May 25 [12 favorites]
Likewise, identifying and objecting to standard racist talking points and/or standard racist framings does not amount to endorsement of Hamas.
Nor does objecting to Israel's ongoing and egregious violations of international humanitarian law, violations which it has been perpetrating with impunity since before it was even recognized as a nation state, and which on any fair analysis are the entire reason for Hamas's viability as an organization potent enough to be noteworthy.
Publicly deploring Israel's monstrous, casual, ongoing brutality does not imply support for Hamas's violence in response to that brutality. Nor does responding to Israel's endlessly asserted "right to defend itself" by pointing out that the right to resist military occupation, by means up to and including organized armed struggle, is far better supported by international law. Nor does pointing out that Israel has a consistent record not only of systematically and brutally shutting down all attempts to resist its occupation by non-violent means, but also of taking actions calculated to provoke violent responses.
This is not about "picking sides". There are no "sides". There is an ongoing condition of violent oppression perpetrated over decades by a nation-state that has the power to stop it, with the consistent backing of the global hegemon, and it needs to end. "You're either with us or with the terrorists" is just another horseshit right-wing framing, not a view that any reasonable person ought to subscribe to.
That's a question for Hamas, because they are the ones with the ability pick the path for the Palestinians at this time. I think the path taken from the start of the second Intifada to the October 7th attacks has been the wrong direction, if the destination is a free Palestine. The settlements expanded and tens of thousands of Palestinians died in multiple rounds of bombardment from Israel.
This is sophistry worthy of Dershowitz.
It doesn't matter what path you pick when setting foot on any of them gets you murdered by Israeli snipers.
As for careful use of the passive voice to cast two different forms of Israeli atrocity as somehow akin to the operation of the law of gravity: do you honestly not understand how fucked up that is?
posted by flabdablet at 12:16 AM on May 25 [12 favorites]
I mean, also, to the exact extent that they don't commit war crimes, i do support violence against Israel? I don't "support" Hamas or the Al-Qassam Brigades in specific, because as i have noted many times, organizationally they are right-wing shitheads. And i certainly don't support war crimes, including hostage-taking and the targeting of civilians. But people are, in fact, allowed to take up arms and fight for liberation, and i 100% support the Palestinian people's right to do that, even if their armed representatives aren't what i would wish for.
posted by adrienneleigh at 12:27 AM on May 25 [8 favorites]
posted by adrienneleigh at 12:27 AM on May 25 [8 favorites]
I think the path taken from the start of the second Intifada to the October 7th attacks has been the wrong direction, if the destination is a free Palestine.
This keeps going round and round in my head because it's just so fucked.
Israel has shown again and again and again that it considers a free Palestine, whether in the form of a viable State on its border or incorporated within itself, to be intolerable. Israel perceives a free Palestine to be an existential threat, not only to Israel but to Judaism.
Israel is the jailer and Palestinians are its prisoners, and there has never been any indication whatsoever that the government of Israel is interested in altering that relationship in any other way than by getting rid of Palestinians altogether.
This is wrong. Addressing that wrongness is entirely the responsibility of Israel and its enablers. Pronouncements on the correctness or otherwise of the prisoners' responses to their ongoing incarceration are completely beside the point.
posted by flabdablet at 12:49 AM on May 25 [16 favorites]
This keeps going round and round in my head because it's just so fucked.
Israel has shown again and again and again that it considers a free Palestine, whether in the form of a viable State on its border or incorporated within itself, to be intolerable. Israel perceives a free Palestine to be an existential threat, not only to Israel but to Judaism.
Israel is the jailer and Palestinians are its prisoners, and there has never been any indication whatsoever that the government of Israel is interested in altering that relationship in any other way than by getting rid of Palestinians altogether.
This is wrong. Addressing that wrongness is entirely the responsibility of Israel and its enablers. Pronouncements on the correctness or otherwise of the prisoners' responses to their ongoing incarceration are completely beside the point.
posted by flabdablet at 12:49 AM on May 25 [16 favorites]
It's actually really funny to me just how much this matches Bill Maher's position that "There's a very simple solution to all this problem in the Middle East— stop attacking Israel." The framing that the genocide is a "response" to or a "consequence" of violence completely flips history on its head. It's been refuted many times in this thread.
posted by i like crows very much at 2:47 AM on May 25 [12 favorites]
posted by i like crows very much at 2:47 AM on May 25 [12 favorites]
There's a very simple solution to solving the problem of the principal's son giving you wedgies and swirlies and stealing your lunch money every day like he's been doing ever since he first arrived at your school, and that's to promise never to give him another black eye.
posted by flabdablet at 4:06 AM on May 25 [3 favorites]
posted by flabdablet at 4:06 AM on May 25 [3 favorites]
I don't "support" Hamas or the Al-Qassam Brigades in specific, because as i have noted many times, organizationally they are right-wing shitheads
Yeah - I felt it uncouth to bring it up in the earlier months, but I'll say it now: it's been darkly hilarious to see the agitation about Hamas apologetics when I also recalled my youth that was the Russian invasion from 2022 and the earnest (and for my mind, valid) comments and takes here and elsewhere about how just because Ukraine (an actual functioning country with a remarkable reputation for corruption) has an active political strain of nationalism that involves neo-nazis doesn't mean they deserve to be invaded (correct) and still more comments sincerely saying well, you know, Bandera has a reason for him being celebrated still and us sharing posts of Azov Batalion wins. Those are fine, of course.
posted by cendawanita at 6:07 AM on May 25 [8 favorites]
Yeah - I felt it uncouth to bring it up in the earlier months, but I'll say it now: it's been darkly hilarious to see the agitation about Hamas apologetics when I also recalled my youth that was the Russian invasion from 2022 and the earnest (and for my mind, valid) comments and takes here and elsewhere about how just because Ukraine (an actual functioning country with a remarkable reputation for corruption) has an active political strain of nationalism that involves neo-nazis doesn't mean they deserve to be invaded (correct) and still more comments sincerely saying well, you know, Bandera has a reason for him being celebrated still and us sharing posts of Azov Batalion wins. Those are fine, of course.
posted by cendawanita at 6:07 AM on May 25 [8 favorites]
You want to say, well it's Hamas who should lay down their arms, because as you assert, this can never succeed? Ok - now tell that to the Irish and the South Africans, and even then, as I said, the success wasn't just because the IRA and ANC kept going but because the state they're battling found themselves footing a bill they can no longer pay. Part of the imbalance of power dynamics is going to be bitter to swallow, which is that the one who needs to be "bigger person" continues to be the one with the state power.
In the North Ireland and SA cases, as well as with the shift the PLO made over many years under Arafat, there was compromise (aka becoming a "bigger person") on the side of the insurgents as well as by the state. It wasn't so much that the insurgents "won" in simple terms, it was that the violence became more untenable on both sides, and also you had people who were getting older and were tired of living on the run or in jail and would rather be in office or operating an NGO. The point being, right now neither Israel or Hamas is showing serious signs of movement towards a situation like North Ireland, South Africa, or other countries where an insurgency ended through negotiations and power-sharing agreements. To get there will take movement by both, regardless of how you apportion blame for the current situation.
My perhaps foolish point of hopefulness is that those previous conflicts all seemed completely unresolveable and felt like escalation was inevitable, until it wasn't. So I keep hoping for that with this conflict, but clearly we are not there currently.
posted by Dip Flash at 6:59 AM on May 25
In the North Ireland and SA cases, as well as with the shift the PLO made over many years under Arafat, there was compromise (aka becoming a "bigger person") on the side of the insurgents as well as by the state. It wasn't so much that the insurgents "won" in simple terms, it was that the violence became more untenable on both sides, and also you had people who were getting older and were tired of living on the run or in jail and would rather be in office or operating an NGO. The point being, right now neither Israel or Hamas is showing serious signs of movement towards a situation like North Ireland, South Africa, or other countries where an insurgency ended through negotiations and power-sharing agreements. To get there will take movement by both, regardless of how you apportion blame for the current situation.
My perhaps foolish point of hopefulness is that those previous conflicts all seemed completely unresolveable and felt like escalation was inevitable, until it wasn't. So I keep hoping for that with this conflict, but clearly we are not there currently.
posted by Dip Flash at 6:59 AM on May 25
It wasn't so much that the insurgents "won" in simple terms, it was that the violence became more untenable on both sides
Do you…actually think…that these things are won just by everyone getting tired, regardless of where they are at positionally? I’m not trying to be a jerk, it just seems incomprehensible to me that you might not realize it’s actually crucial for the occupied to inflict losses on the occupier in order to win freedom. I don’t believe there’s a single country on the face of this earth whose occupiers just gave up because they were bored.
posted by corb at 7:55 AM on May 25 [9 favorites]
Do you…actually think…that these things are won just by everyone getting tired, regardless of where they are at positionally? I’m not trying to be a jerk, it just seems incomprehensible to me that you might not realize it’s actually crucial for the occupied to inflict losses on the occupier in order to win freedom. I don’t believe there’s a single country on the face of this earth whose occupiers just gave up because they were bored.
posted by corb at 7:55 AM on May 25 [9 favorites]
I’m not trying to be a jerk, it just seems incomprehensible to me that you might not realize it’s actually crucial for the occupied to inflict losses on the occupier in order to win freedom.
I'm not reading your comment as jerkish, but either I wrote poorly or you are missing my point. Yes, obviously both sides got worn down in N Ireland and S Africa, that's most of what eventually brought them to the table. The same thing happened in the era when the PLO/Israel relationship shifted from simple violence to negotiations. The individual people involved get worn down and older, they read the room and see that popular support for violence is slipping, outside actors create trust and space for negotiating, etc.
My point, which perhaps I was making poorly, is that in all of these cases, it took both sides making compromises and being willing to talk across and negotiate around, previously red-lines. And right now, the conditions between Israel and Hamas don't seem viable for that, beyond the stop-start ceasefire negotiations.
I'm not going to try and prognosticate, because I keep being wrong. I really, really thought that enough pressure would have been brought to bear on Israel months ago to force a stop in the main assaults, but so far they are still just shrugging that off. So, no predictions from me, just unhappiness with the current situation and slight hopefulness for a ceasefire leading to peace.
posted by Dip Flash at 8:27 AM on May 25 [2 favorites]
I'm not reading your comment as jerkish, but either I wrote poorly or you are missing my point. Yes, obviously both sides got worn down in N Ireland and S Africa, that's most of what eventually brought them to the table. The same thing happened in the era when the PLO/Israel relationship shifted from simple violence to negotiations. The individual people involved get worn down and older, they read the room and see that popular support for violence is slipping, outside actors create trust and space for negotiating, etc.
My point, which perhaps I was making poorly, is that in all of these cases, it took both sides making compromises and being willing to talk across and negotiate around, previously red-lines. And right now, the conditions between Israel and Hamas don't seem viable for that, beyond the stop-start ceasefire negotiations.
I'm not going to try and prognosticate, because I keep being wrong. I really, really thought that enough pressure would have been brought to bear on Israel months ago to force a stop in the main assaults, but so far they are still just shrugging that off. So, no predictions from me, just unhappiness with the current situation and slight hopefulness for a ceasefire leading to peace.
posted by Dip Flash at 8:27 AM on May 25 [2 favorites]
I think the thing is, the negotiations have to offer the possibility of more than can be gotten with violence. Right now, Israel isn’t offering even the possibility of a free Palestine as an incentive to come to the table, and the concession it wants is “just give up and die already, accept we will occupy you forever.” Those aren’t the postures of a state tired of fighting - so there’s really no need for the occupied to disarm.
posted by corb at 8:55 AM on May 25 [19 favorites]
posted by corb at 8:55 AM on May 25 [19 favorites]
On that note, in the midst of the news that Hamas has managed to lure and kill IDF soldiers that is still under "unconfirmed" though there is video circulating, Reuters: Hamas armed wing says it launched 'big missile' attack on Tel Aviv
In a statement on its Telegram channel on Sunday, al-Qassam Brigades said the rockets were launched in response to what it called "Zionist massacres against civilians".
Hamas Al-Aqsa TV said the rockets were launched from the Gaza Strip.
Rocket sirens had not been heard in Tel Aviv for the past four months. The reason for the sirens was not immediately stated by the Israeli military.
Israeli emergency medical services said they had received no reports of casualties.
(According this NBC article, their journalist visually witnessed one of them being intercepted)
posted by cendawanita at 5:32 AM on May 26 [2 favorites]
In a statement on its Telegram channel on Sunday, al-Qassam Brigades said the rockets were launched in response to what it called "Zionist massacres against civilians".
Hamas Al-Aqsa TV said the rockets were launched from the Gaza Strip.
Rocket sirens had not been heard in Tel Aviv for the past four months. The reason for the sirens was not immediately stated by the Israeli military.
Israeli emergency medical services said they had received no reports of casualties.
(According this NBC article, their journalist visually witnessed one of them being intercepted)
posted by cendawanita at 5:32 AM on May 26 [2 favorites]
Airstrikes on Rafah reportedly kill 30 after Hamas launches rockets at Tel Aviv
posted by clavdivs at 1:09 PM on May 26
posted by clavdivs at 1:09 PM on May 26
The Good Friday Agreement in Northern Ireland happened after leaders in Ireland and the UK made the major confession of accepting that the future status of Northern Ireland would be a matter of the consent of the population, Ireland had to amend its constitution
to accept that Northern Ireland wasn’t its rightful sovereign territory and the UK had to pass legislation along similar lines. In parallel the paramilitary organizations had to accept a truce. Northern Ireland remains part of the UK. There id a fear that in the post-Brexit world the agreements may not be able to hold together. Even with some movement towards unification after Brexit; the DUP and other Unionist groups seem ready to return to violence if that step is made.
Violence is a horrible tool and it isn’t a magic solvent or ingredient that enables liberation. It has proven effective under certain circumstances such as when the occupiers are a small minority and of the population as in South Africa or Algeria. It has also worked when ruled by some distant nation half a world away — as happened in the Americas and Vietnam.
This tactic has been a lot less successful when the geography is small or the territory is embedded inside the enemy territory. Consider the fates of the Basque, the Lakota, or most recently Armenians in the enclave or Nagorno-Karabakh.
It is also notable that Hamas’ position continues to be a maximalist view that all of the former Palestinian mandate should be under an Islamic government. They will only assent to the idea of ceasefire with a country they will not name. In recent documents they suggested the truce / ceasefire would have a term of 5 years.
Every act of Palestinian violence, provoked or not has been an excuse by Israel to flatten Palestinian homes and expand their settlements. The empirical evidence is that violence is not working. It just lets the Likud justify its slow motion ethnic cleansing operation.
I agree there is an unwillingness by current Israeli leaders to discuss peace. This isn’t universal among their leadership and their willingness to negotiate has risen and fallen in response to Palestinian leaders ability to do the same. Netanyahu himself has been quoted as saying that he loves that Hamas is in charge and inflexible because it means he doesn’t have to negotiate.
The idea that liberation can only come through more violence or that it is necessary ignores the fact that much of the world wants to see the conflict ended. There are an other ways to impose costs on an enemy than violence and terrorism; most of them have been shown to be much more effective.
The right to use violence for self defense or liberation exists, but as we teach children — having the right of way doesn’t stop a truck — be sure to make your session to cross only after looking both way. What ever punishment the driver gets, won’t bring you back to life.
posted by interogative mood at 4:32 PM on May 26
to accept that Northern Ireland wasn’t its rightful sovereign territory and the UK had to pass legislation along similar lines. In parallel the paramilitary organizations had to accept a truce. Northern Ireland remains part of the UK. There id a fear that in the post-Brexit world the agreements may not be able to hold together. Even with some movement towards unification after Brexit; the DUP and other Unionist groups seem ready to return to violence if that step is made.
Violence is a horrible tool and it isn’t a magic solvent or ingredient that enables liberation. It has proven effective under certain circumstances such as when the occupiers are a small minority and of the population as in South Africa or Algeria. It has also worked when ruled by some distant nation half a world away — as happened in the Americas and Vietnam.
This tactic has been a lot less successful when the geography is small or the territory is embedded inside the enemy territory. Consider the fates of the Basque, the Lakota, or most recently Armenians in the enclave or Nagorno-Karabakh.
It is also notable that Hamas’ position continues to be a maximalist view that all of the former Palestinian mandate should be under an Islamic government. They will only assent to the idea of ceasefire with a country they will not name. In recent documents they suggested the truce / ceasefire would have a term of 5 years.
Every act of Palestinian violence, provoked or not has been an excuse by Israel to flatten Palestinian homes and expand their settlements. The empirical evidence is that violence is not working. It just lets the Likud justify its slow motion ethnic cleansing operation.
I agree there is an unwillingness by current Israeli leaders to discuss peace. This isn’t universal among their leadership and their willingness to negotiate has risen and fallen in response to Palestinian leaders ability to do the same. Netanyahu himself has been quoted as saying that he loves that Hamas is in charge and inflexible because it means he doesn’t have to negotiate.
The idea that liberation can only come through more violence or that it is necessary ignores the fact that much of the world wants to see the conflict ended. There are an other ways to impose costs on an enemy than violence and terrorism; most of them have been shown to be much more effective.
The right to use violence for self defense or liberation exists, but as we teach children — having the right of way doesn’t stop a truck — be sure to make your session to cross only after looking both way. What ever punishment the driver gets, won’t bring you back to life.
posted by interogative mood at 4:32 PM on May 26
Israel has apparently bombed upwards of ten UNRWA refugee centers today.
posted by adrienneleigh at 4:49 PM on May 26 [8 favorites]
posted by adrienneleigh at 4:49 PM on May 26 [8 favorites]
They also just bombed a designated "safe zone" inside Rafah (designated by Israel four days ago) and the footage coming out is … really bad. A whole lot of burns, which means that people are going to take days or weeks to die in agony.
Please note that the ICJ told Israel last week to immediately halt all offensive operations in Rafah. They are unequivocally a rogue state.
posted by adrienneleigh at 4:56 PM on May 26 [12 favorites]
Please note that the ICJ told Israel last week to immediately halt all offensive operations in Rafah. They are unequivocally a rogue state.
posted by adrienneleigh at 4:56 PM on May 26 [12 favorites]
The mainstream media is starting to catch up on the fact that Israel is letting the settlers and far right groups run amuck. Front page news on the Washington Post right now detailing how right wing groups are coordinating attacks on food convoys. The young men carrying out the attacks don’t feel the need to even cover their faces. They expect zero consequences. Although some of the attackers in this case were arrested.
posted by interogative mood at 6:03 PM on May 26 [5 favorites]
posted by interogative mood at 6:03 PM on May 26 [5 favorites]
The empirical evidence is that violence is not working.
You have to admit, even if we disregard the earlier history (eg the initial wave of the first intifada, and even how the Oslo process was apparently conducted in bad faith, as later correspondence and anecdotes show), the 2018 March of Return pretty much settled the question that peaceful methods weren't going to work either.
Israel is a rogue state.
posted by cendawanita at 6:37 PM on May 26 [10 favorites]
You have to admit, even if we disregard the earlier history (eg the initial wave of the first intifada, and even how the Oslo process was apparently conducted in bad faith, as later correspondence and anecdotes show), the 2018 March of Return pretty much settled the question that peaceful methods weren't going to work either.
Israel is a rogue state.
posted by cendawanita at 6:37 PM on May 26 [10 favorites]
Can't even try diplomacy too, because this is where the US plays the heavy, with Germany and the rest of the EU playing the assist, with the most egregious examples relating to the various domestic laws to cut off funding to the UN system when it comes to Palestinian statehood or other "small" things like cutting off aid or grants to civil societies under the guise of counter-terrorism (back in the day, probably more straightforwardly 'supporting Palestine' these days).
So, what's left? I'm left to recall my country's history and our pride at how our transition was supposedly peaceful. Sure, comparatively, but it was against the background of communist guerilla fighters launching periodic attacks (pretty much the reason why the British set up internment camps for Chinese Malaysians -- MMM there's that racial profiling). Having them as a genuine threat pretty much demonstrated (to a broke post-war Britain) why a centre-right coalition is much more preferable a partner, if they have to unwind their administrative control here. That's why I've been taking the longview by calling the Hamas armed wing the wartime flank of Palestine. Once again, it's in the interest of the non-lunatic side of the West to admit Palestine as a state and not something you can pretend will evaporate tomorrow.
posted by cendawanita at 6:45 PM on May 26 [4 favorites]
So, what's left? I'm left to recall my country's history and our pride at how our transition was supposedly peaceful. Sure, comparatively, but it was against the background of communist guerilla fighters launching periodic attacks (pretty much the reason why the British set up internment camps for Chinese Malaysians -- MMM there's that racial profiling). Having them as a genuine threat pretty much demonstrated (to a broke post-war Britain) why a centre-right coalition is much more preferable a partner, if they have to unwind their administrative control here. That's why I've been taking the longview by calling the Hamas armed wing the wartime flank of Palestine. Once again, it's in the interest of the non-lunatic side of the West to admit Palestine as a state and not something you can pretend will evaporate tomorrow.
posted by cendawanita at 6:45 PM on May 26 [4 favorites]
A major component of the first Intifada was nonviolence and violence on the scale of throwing rocks.
eg the initial wave of the first intifada, and even how the Oslo process was apparently conducted in bad faith, as later correspondence and anecdotes show
The Oslo process started and was conducted with good faith by both sides until Likkud came to power in 1996 following the Assassination of Rabin in 1995 as the linked article explains.
Ehud Barak wasn’t strong enough to put things back on track. I think it was a mistake to reject his proposal in 1999 but I doubt he could have gotten it through the Knesset. The rejection of that deal and the rise of the much more violent second Intifada afterwards was weaponized by Israelis. You hear them say “we even offered to share Jerusalem…”.
I think part of what sustains this conflict is that defeat and loss is hard to accept. The article notes that Edward Said described Oslo as an instrument of surrender. It was a huge step by Arafat/PLO make it and no one gave him the credit for it.
I think the biggest flaw in Oslo was that Hamas and Likkud were never on board. The PA and Israeli government never had the ability to coerce those groups into the process. I think I you look at how Northern Irelands peace process moved forward a big part of it was getting the paramilitaries under the control and each side coercing its own extreme elements to participate.
posted by interogative mood at 7:14 PM on May 26
eg the initial wave of the first intifada, and even how the Oslo process was apparently conducted in bad faith, as later correspondence and anecdotes show
The Oslo process started and was conducted with good faith by both sides until Likkud came to power in 1996 following the Assassination of Rabin in 1995 as the linked article explains.
Ehud Barak wasn’t strong enough to put things back on track. I think it was a mistake to reject his proposal in 1999 but I doubt he could have gotten it through the Knesset. The rejection of that deal and the rise of the much more violent second Intifada afterwards was weaponized by Israelis. You hear them say “we even offered to share Jerusalem…”.
I think part of what sustains this conflict is that defeat and loss is hard to accept. The article notes that Edward Said described Oslo as an instrument of surrender. It was a huge step by Arafat/PLO make it and no one gave him the credit for it.
I think the biggest flaw in Oslo was that Hamas and Likkud were never on board. The PA and Israeli government never had the ability to coerce those groups into the process. I think I you look at how Northern Irelands peace process moved forward a big part of it was getting the paramilitaries under the control and each side coercing its own extreme elements to participate.
posted by interogative mood at 7:14 PM on May 26
Useful gossip--
Barak Ravid: A source with knowledge told me Israel asked the U.S. to boycott the meeting following Norway's recognition of a Palestinian state, but the U.S. refused. The participation of the Deputy Secretary of State in the meeting is the highest level of U.S. government participating at a conference on the Palestinian economy since 2016
QTing himself: BREAKING: Deputy Secretary of State Kurt Campbell at Norway hosted meeting on the Palestinian economy: Israel must end withholding of Palestinian tax revenues. The Israeli threat to halt correspondence for Palestinian banks is unacceptable
---
ETA: he QT's himself to add: Another source told me Blinken would have participated if the meeting wasn't on memorial day weekend
posted by cendawanita at 10:08 PM on May 26 [5 favorites]
Barak Ravid: A source with knowledge told me Israel asked the U.S. to boycott the meeting following Norway's recognition of a Palestinian state, but the U.S. refused. The participation of the Deputy Secretary of State in the meeting is the highest level of U.S. government participating at a conference on the Palestinian economy since 2016
QTing himself: BREAKING: Deputy Secretary of State Kurt Campbell at Norway hosted meeting on the Palestinian economy: Israel must end withholding of Palestinian tax revenues. The Israeli threat to halt correspondence for Palestinian banks is unacceptable
---
ETA: he QT's himself to add: Another source told me Blinken would have participated if the meeting wasn't on memorial day weekend
posted by cendawanita at 10:08 PM on May 26 [5 favorites]
Between Blinken not participating in this meeting because he wanted to have a 3 day weekend barbecue and Chris Coons' statements that no witnesses were called for Trump's second impeachment because senators wanted to get home for their Valentine's day dinners I'm starting to think our government officials don't always have their priorities precisely in line.
posted by Justinian at 10:41 PM on May 26 [10 favorites]
posted by Justinian at 10:41 PM on May 26 [10 favorites]
I think part of what sustains this conflict is that defeat and loss is hard to accept.
"defeat and loss" as euphemism for genocide and apartheid, let's be clear
posted by i like crows very much at 10:57 PM on May 26 [9 favorites]
"defeat and loss" as euphemism for genocide and apartheid, let's be clear
posted by i like crows very much at 10:57 PM on May 26 [9 favorites]
I think the biggest flaw in Oslo was that Hamas and Likkud were never on board.
I mean, the biggest flaw in Oslo was that at best it offered the Palestinians the possibility of a demilitarized Bantustan, while entirely erasing the right of return.
posted by adrienneleigh at 11:21 PM on May 26 [9 favorites]
I mean, the biggest flaw in Oslo was that at best it offered the Palestinians the possibility of a demilitarized Bantustan, while entirely erasing the right of return.
posted by adrienneleigh at 11:21 PM on May 26 [9 favorites]
I love how literal weeks of this thread are just detailed updates on the ongoing war crimes, followed by exactly one person going "it's a shame that Palestine made Israel do this" and everybody yelling at them.
posted by Tom Hanks Cannot Be Trusted at 11:37 PM on May 26 [19 favorites]
posted by Tom Hanks Cannot Be Trusted at 11:37 PM on May 26 [19 favorites]
To be fair, there used to be four or five people doing that, but the rest of them have gone suspiciously silent in these threads. I suspect they think we're unreasonable and/or antisemitic.
posted by adrienneleigh at 12:06 AM on May 27 [8 favorites]
posted by adrienneleigh at 12:06 AM on May 27 [8 favorites]
Noga Tarnopolsky: 💥#Breaking: Yinon Magal, a media proxy who describes himself as "a vehicle for Netanyahu's messages to the public," tweets that the catastrophe unfolding in Rafah is "The central bonfire of the year."
(Today is Lag Ba'Omer, a Jewish holiday traditionally celebrated with bonfires.)
Juliette McIntyre: Think I just frightened a journalist with my ranting but we need to stop asking why "the law" isn't fixing this - the law is being BROKEN by Israel and Hamas and the ICJ* and ICC are already doing what they exist to do within the confines to which they are subject.
International legal institutions are not superheroes and we need to stop acting as if they are. You want something to change at a faster pace start/keep putting pressure on political leaders. Protest, write letters, send funds to charities. Together it all makes a difference.
Unfortunate timing: this Atlantic piece by Graeme Wood (gift link) - other than repeating the canard that the casualty numbers have been revised downwards and being a remarkable piece of bothsideism which had to produce such fragments in order to do so: To rebut Hamas’s allegations by letting journalists see the war up close would be a calculated risk. Even when conducted legally, war is ugly. It is possible to kill children legally, if for example one is being attacked by an enemy who hides behind them. But the sight of a legally killed child is no less disturbing than the sight of a murdered one. And Israel has discovered that shutting out the press carries its own risks. An infanticide that no one can see is also going to attract suspicion. Unsympathetic observers will think Israel is conducting its war in the manner of other countries whose counterinsurgent forces have preferred to work out of view of independent media. Russia did this in the Second Chechen War; Sri Lanka, in its civil war. Both countries’ militaries had much to hide.
Suffice to say, international law scholars and people not invested in defending genocide are currently at, ??? It is not in fact possible to kill a child legally even in war settings.
Anyway, video of Fareed Zakaria interview with: Human Rights Watch co-founder Aryeh Neier, who fled the Nazis as a child, tells Fareed why he has come to the conclusion that Israel is committing genocide in Gaza.
posted by cendawanita at 12:17 AM on May 27 [7 favorites]
(Today is Lag Ba'Omer, a Jewish holiday traditionally celebrated with bonfires.)
Juliette McIntyre: Think I just frightened a journalist with my ranting but we need to stop asking why "the law" isn't fixing this - the law is being BROKEN by Israel and Hamas and the ICJ* and ICC are already doing what they exist to do within the confines to which they are subject.
International legal institutions are not superheroes and we need to stop acting as if they are. You want something to change at a faster pace start/keep putting pressure on political leaders. Protest, write letters, send funds to charities. Together it all makes a difference.
Unfortunate timing: this Atlantic piece by Graeme Wood (gift link) - other than repeating the canard that the casualty numbers have been revised downwards and being a remarkable piece of bothsideism which had to produce such fragments in order to do so: To rebut Hamas’s allegations by letting journalists see the war up close would be a calculated risk. Even when conducted legally, war is ugly. It is possible to kill children legally, if for example one is being attacked by an enemy who hides behind them. But the sight of a legally killed child is no less disturbing than the sight of a murdered one. And Israel has discovered that shutting out the press carries its own risks. An infanticide that no one can see is also going to attract suspicion. Unsympathetic observers will think Israel is conducting its war in the manner of other countries whose counterinsurgent forces have preferred to work out of view of independent media. Russia did this in the Second Chechen War; Sri Lanka, in its civil war. Both countries’ militaries had much to hide.
Suffice to say, international law scholars and people not invested in defending genocide are currently at, ??? It is not in fact possible to kill a child legally even in war settings.
Anyway, video of Fareed Zakaria interview with: Human Rights Watch co-founder Aryeh Neier, who fled the Nazis as a child, tells Fareed why he has come to the conclusion that Israel is committing genocide in Gaza.
posted by cendawanita at 12:17 AM on May 27 [7 favorites]
but the rest of them have gone suspiciously silent in these threads
I'm sure it wasn't intended to look like a collective, but I remember actual announcements of account closures or pause which is fine - you ought to be able to boycott things without anyone making it illegal for it to be done.
posted by cendawanita at 12:29 AM on May 27 [3 favorites]
I'm sure it wasn't intended to look like a collective, but I remember actual announcements of account closures or pause which is fine - you ought to be able to boycott things without anyone making it illegal for it to be done.
posted by cendawanita at 12:29 AM on May 27 [3 favorites]
Been waiting to see if it's surfaced in anglophone media after seeing the various eyewitness reports and video of parts of the US pier just falling apart, going hither and yon and finally crashing into the port of Ashdod, but a news report I finally saw linked via Muhammad Shehada is in Hebrew. And this was the pier that barely started delivering anything.
posted by cendawanita at 5:24 AM on May 27 [4 favorites]
posted by cendawanita at 5:24 AM on May 27 [4 favorites]
To flag: news broke sometime in the last hour (but later deleted at the request of the censors) on Israel's Channels 13 & 14 of a shooting at the Rafah crossing between IDF and the Egyptian army.
posted by cendawanita at 5:34 AM on May 27 [5 favorites]
posted by cendawanita at 5:34 AM on May 27 [5 favorites]
Cross-validation - Charles Lister: NEW - Arabic reporting suggests #Egypt security forces opened fire on #Israel personnel at the #Rafah crossing, following last night’s airstrike & death of 40+ #Gaza civilians.
Details are currently under a gag order.
posted by cendawanita at 5:44 AM on May 27 [2 favorites]
Details are currently under a gag order.
posted by cendawanita at 5:44 AM on May 27 [2 favorites]
various eyewitness reports and video of parts of the US pier just falling apart, going hither and yon and finally crashing into the port of Ashdod
Much as Trojan Horse has become the name for gifts that entice recipients to breach their own security in ways that benefit the giver, I would like to propose Gazan Pier for any loudly ballyhooed project instantly recognizable as insultingly inadequate by anybody not fully invested in denying the real causes of the issues it purports to address.
Most Australian Government responses to human-induced global warming, for example, have been assorted kinds of Gazan Pier, as are typical social media company responses to the flood of lies preferentially amplified by their services. There are a lot of them about.
posted by flabdablet at 6:21 AM on May 27 [4 favorites]
Much as Trojan Horse has become the name for gifts that entice recipients to breach their own security in ways that benefit the giver, I would like to propose Gazan Pier for any loudly ballyhooed project instantly recognizable as insultingly inadequate by anybody not fully invested in denying the real causes of the issues it purports to address.
Most Australian Government responses to human-induced global warming, for example, have been assorted kinds of Gazan Pier, as are typical social media company responses to the flood of lies preferentially amplified by their services. There are a lot of them about.
posted by flabdablet at 6:21 AM on May 27 [4 favorites]
Let's not curse the Palestinians with that legacy. Call it what it is: the Western Way.
posted by cendawanita at 8:11 AM on May 27 [4 favorites]
posted by cendawanita at 8:11 AM on May 27 [4 favorites]
Trump vows to crush pro-Palestinian protestors and deport them,
posted by interogative mood at 9:24 AM on May 27 [1 favorite]
posted by interogative mood at 9:24 AM on May 27 [1 favorite]
Well Biden signed a memo back in February giving Palestinians protection from deportation for 18 months, but otherwise, so many foreign students already have their scholarships/academic year cut short (which impacts their visa, no?) so practically, the future is here? What about Americans with solo citizenships?
Anyway, phone party chat call over, USA must have been :(, as Israel is very sorry:
Barak Ravid: BREAKING: Netanyahu says the air strike in Rafah on Sunday was "a tragic mistake" and adds that it will be investigated
To which Joshua P Hill noted that's the definitely not what the IDF claimed uh... An hour before that tweet: Last night, the @lAFsite carried out an inteligence-based precise strike that targeted senior Hamas terrorists in Tal as Sultan.
Contrary to Hamas' lies and misinformation, the strike did not take place in the Al-Mawasi Humanitarian Area.
I wonder how long was this phone call.
Hümeyra Pamuk: NEW: First substantive comment from Washington on Israel’s Rafah attack, from a White House National Security Spokesperson: “The devastating images following the IDF strike in Rafah last night that killed dozens of innocent Palestinians are heartbreaking.” 1/3
“Israel has a right to go after Hamas, and we understand this strike killed two senior Hamas terrorists who are responsible for attacks against Israeli civilians.” 2/3
“But as we’ve been clear, Israel must take every precaution possible to protect civilians. We are actively engaging the IDF and partners on the ground to assess what happened, and understand that the IDF is conducting an investigation.” 3/3
posted by cendawanita at 9:47 AM on May 27 [7 favorites]
Anyway, phone party chat call over, USA must have been :(, as Israel is very sorry:
Barak Ravid: BREAKING: Netanyahu says the air strike in Rafah on Sunday was "a tragic mistake" and adds that it will be investigated
To which Joshua P Hill noted that's the definitely not what the IDF claimed uh... An hour before that tweet: Last night, the @lAFsite carried out an inteligence-based precise strike that targeted senior Hamas terrorists in Tal as Sultan.
Contrary to Hamas' lies and misinformation, the strike did not take place in the Al-Mawasi Humanitarian Area.
I wonder how long was this phone call.
Hümeyra Pamuk: NEW: First substantive comment from Washington on Israel’s Rafah attack, from a White House National Security Spokesperson: “The devastating images following the IDF strike in Rafah last night that killed dozens of innocent Palestinians are heartbreaking.” 1/3
“Israel has a right to go after Hamas, and we understand this strike killed two senior Hamas terrorists who are responsible for attacks against Israeli civilians.” 2/3
“But as we’ve been clear, Israel must take every precaution possible to protect civilians. We are actively engaging the IDF and partners on the ground to assess what happened, and understand that the IDF is conducting an investigation.” 3/3
posted by cendawanita at 9:47 AM on May 27 [7 favorites]
Some confirmed reporting on that shooting: (New Arab) Border clash erupts between Egyptian and Israeli soldiers, injuries and deaths reported -
Similar border incidents had erupted over the past months, including one that took place in June last year - one Egyptian soldier killed. I think by Tel Aviv Logic...
Tal Hagin posted an infograph (based on OSINT) that shows on the map just how far the precision strikes were from the projected site of the rocket launches (5 km).
These (self-posted) pics via @tamerqdh of these soldiers grinning against the backdrop of burning buildings make my stomach turn. There are other as awful posts, as we know, which reminds me of this new Haaretz piece: ICJ Ruling Won't Immediately Change War in Gaza, but Danger Still Looms for Israel - While there are no immediate moves to rein in the IDF, in the longer term there are two dangers: an imposed cease-fire without a resolution of the hostage crisis and missing the Biden administration's proposal for a comprehensive U.S.-Saudi-Israeli agreement:
This weekend, Netanyahu's keyboard warriors fought mightily to see to the wide distribution of a new, seditious video. Prominent social media accounts, including those of journalist Yinon Magal and Yair Netanyahu, one of the prime minister's sons, shared the clip, which was allegedly filmed by army reservists. In it, a man in full fatigues is holding what appears to be an automatic rifle. His face masked, he addresses the camera. Claiming to represent "100,000 reservists," he declares loyalty only to Netanyahu and threatens that he and his brothers-in-arms will refuse to leave Gaza if the government hands authority in the Gaza Strip to any Palestinian body when the war ends.
"We want to tear apart anyone left here," he threatens. "Everyone who celebrated when they slaughtered us … all of them – we want to kill. No one will be left alive. Anyone who harms the people of Israel, we want to destroy." To top it all off, he calls on "Sir Yoav Gallant" to resign. In response, IDF Chief of Staff Herzl Halevi (whose orders the soldier in the video called to ignore) ordered an "immediate command-level dialogue" with army units about what was said in the video. The Military Police is investigating the source and distribution of the clip.
Halevi and the military high command woke up too late. The General Staff lost control over the units, especially reserve units, months ago. In Gaza, in the West Bank and in bases in Israel, soldiers record themselves destroying Palestinian property and civilian infrastructure, blowing up homes without permission and spreading political messages identified with the far right. What is photographed and distributed is only the tip of the iceberg: The vast majority of offenses are committed beyond the range of the cameras, and in the vast majority of these cases, the army responds weakly if at all. Some of the incidents are serving prosecutors in The Hague as proof of the allegations against Israel.
A hair-raising investigation by Raviv Drucker that aired on Channel 13 News, depicting the deeds of Transportation Minister Miri Regev, only added to the sense of rot in the government. The police and the state prosecution has begun reviewing the findings, according to which Regev allegedly engineered a detailed method to favor communities with a majority of Likud voters – and especially Regev supporters in the party primaries – in allocating transportation resources. Kibbutzim near the Gaza border in the south and the Lebanon border in the north, known not to be Likud strongholds, were also pushed to the back of the line.
(...) In a move presumably meant to deflect the bullets, a vicious attack by Regev on Halevi during the last meeting of the inner cabinet was somehow leaked to Channel 12. It did not help her in particular. The news department deviated from long-standing tradition and devoted long minutes of its "Ulpan Shishi" program on Friday to Drucker's investigation. The most cogent response was that of Reuven Yablonka, who had learned that morning – from rumors on social media, not from the IDF – that his son's body had been found. He has not received a single phone call from a cabinet member or lawmaker, he says. "Maybe if I belonged to the Likud Central Committee, they would have called me by now," he added. The incensed viewer at home had no choice but to throw something at the TV screen.
(Considering Hamas had been trying to return the hostages in an exchange of some kind since October 2023, I'm not particularly impressed by the supposed commitment to "bring them home")
Jpost: Knesset to hold preliminary vote designating UNRWA a terror organization
“The purpose of this bill is to declare UNRWA as a terrorist organization for all intents and purposes as well as order the termination of the relations [and the cooperation] of the State of Israel with the agency, either directly or indirectly,” Israel Beytenu MK Yulia Malinovksy wrote in the introduction to the bill, which she authored.
(...)Malinovksy, whose party is in the opposition--
Yet, according to wiki, they're classified as conservative right-wing, but secular.
Anyway, Karim Khan's interview with the Sunday Times: “What this comes down to is, ‘Do we want to live in a world where law is applied equally or one where we close our eyes and turn away because of our allegiances?’ ” he said.
(...) But in his first major interview since the announcement, Khan has hit back at critics, including Rishi Sunak, who called the decision “deeply unhelpful”, and President Biden, who called it “outrageous”.
“Our job is not to make friends,” he shrugged. “It’s to do our job whether we are applauded or condemned. We have to underline the equal worth of every child, every woman, every civilian in a world that is increasingly polarised and if we don’t do that, what’s the point of us?”
(...) He added: “Much more important than me or the ICC, the world is looking at this situation. In Latin America, Africa and Asia they are seeing this as a crystallising point. Are powerful states sincere when they say there’s a body of law or is this rules-based system all a nonsense, simply a tool of Nato and a post-colonial world, with no real intention of applying law equally?”
(...) “I am not saying that Israel with its democracy and its supreme court is akin to Hamas, of course not. I couldn’t be clearer, Israel has every right to protect its population and to get the hostages back. But nobody has a licence to commit war crimes or crimes against humanity. The means define us.”
When asked recently by a senior official what Israel could do given that it didn’t know where the hostages were, in tunnels or houses, or how they were being kept, he said he gave the example of Britain during the IRA.
“There were attempts to kill Margaret Thatcher, Airey Neave was blown up, Lord Mountbatten was blown up, there was the Enniskillen attack, we had kneecappings … But the British didn’t decide to say, ‘Well, on the Falls Road [the heart of Catholic Belfast] there undoubtedly may be some IRA members and Republican sympathisers, so therefore let’s drop a 2,000lb bomb on the Falls Road.’ You can’t do that.
“Law must have some purpose, that’s what separates states that respect the law from criminal groups and terrorists. And that’s all I have been trying to do, apply law based on facts, and that’s what we must do whatever condemnation we get.”
(...) Khan said: “Look what all major relief agencies say, what we are seeing of emaciated children. Even if we don’t trust Palestinian doctors, we have American and British doctors speaking of conducting amputations without anaesthetics, of babies dying in incubators because the power is turned off, of people dying because there is no insulin.”
“This is not how war is supposed to be waged,” he added. “If this is what compliance with international humanitarian law looks like, then the Geneva Conventions serve no purpose.”
(...) Khan acknowledges that civilian casualties are an unfortunate reality of armed conflict, particularly in urban areas, but adds: “It’s another thing for civilians to be deliberately targeted. You can’t have as a common plan collective punishment. It’s absolutely legitimate for Israel to have the objective to defeat Hamas and to get hostages out, I support that. But the way you engage must be compliant with law.”
He dismissed as a “red herring’ the recent dispute over the casualty figures for Gaza, which arose after the UN shifted from endorsing a figure of more than 35,000 dead to about 25,000 “identified’ dead Palestinians, plus an additional 10,000 unidentified dead. Even with the lower figure, “every one is a tragedy”, he said.
posted by cendawanita at 11:08 AM on May 27 [11 favorites]
Similar border incidents had erupted over the past months, including one that took place in June last year - one Egyptian soldier killed. I think by Tel Aviv Logic...
Tal Hagin posted an infograph (based on OSINT) that shows on the map just how far the precision strikes were from the projected site of the rocket launches (5 km).
These (self-posted) pics via @tamerqdh of these soldiers grinning against the backdrop of burning buildings make my stomach turn. There are other as awful posts, as we know, which reminds me of this new Haaretz piece: ICJ Ruling Won't Immediately Change War in Gaza, but Danger Still Looms for Israel - While there are no immediate moves to rein in the IDF, in the longer term there are two dangers: an imposed cease-fire without a resolution of the hostage crisis and missing the Biden administration's proposal for a comprehensive U.S.-Saudi-Israeli agreement:
This weekend, Netanyahu's keyboard warriors fought mightily to see to the wide distribution of a new, seditious video. Prominent social media accounts, including those of journalist Yinon Magal and Yair Netanyahu, one of the prime minister's sons, shared the clip, which was allegedly filmed by army reservists. In it, a man in full fatigues is holding what appears to be an automatic rifle. His face masked, he addresses the camera. Claiming to represent "100,000 reservists," he declares loyalty only to Netanyahu and threatens that he and his brothers-in-arms will refuse to leave Gaza if the government hands authority in the Gaza Strip to any Palestinian body when the war ends.
"We want to tear apart anyone left here," he threatens. "Everyone who celebrated when they slaughtered us … all of them – we want to kill. No one will be left alive. Anyone who harms the people of Israel, we want to destroy." To top it all off, he calls on "Sir Yoav Gallant" to resign. In response, IDF Chief of Staff Herzl Halevi (whose orders the soldier in the video called to ignore) ordered an "immediate command-level dialogue" with army units about what was said in the video. The Military Police is investigating the source and distribution of the clip.
Halevi and the military high command woke up too late. The General Staff lost control over the units, especially reserve units, months ago. In Gaza, in the West Bank and in bases in Israel, soldiers record themselves destroying Palestinian property and civilian infrastructure, blowing up homes without permission and spreading political messages identified with the far right. What is photographed and distributed is only the tip of the iceberg: The vast majority of offenses are committed beyond the range of the cameras, and in the vast majority of these cases, the army responds weakly if at all. Some of the incidents are serving prosecutors in The Hague as proof of the allegations against Israel.
A hair-raising investigation by Raviv Drucker that aired on Channel 13 News, depicting the deeds of Transportation Minister Miri Regev, only added to the sense of rot in the government. The police and the state prosecution has begun reviewing the findings, according to which Regev allegedly engineered a detailed method to favor communities with a majority of Likud voters – and especially Regev supporters in the party primaries – in allocating transportation resources. Kibbutzim near the Gaza border in the south and the Lebanon border in the north, known not to be Likud strongholds, were also pushed to the back of the line.
(...) In a move presumably meant to deflect the bullets, a vicious attack by Regev on Halevi during the last meeting of the inner cabinet was somehow leaked to Channel 12. It did not help her in particular. The news department deviated from long-standing tradition and devoted long minutes of its "Ulpan Shishi" program on Friday to Drucker's investigation. The most cogent response was that of Reuven Yablonka, who had learned that morning – from rumors on social media, not from the IDF – that his son's body had been found. He has not received a single phone call from a cabinet member or lawmaker, he says. "Maybe if I belonged to the Likud Central Committee, they would have called me by now," he added. The incensed viewer at home had no choice but to throw something at the TV screen.
(Considering Hamas had been trying to return the hostages in an exchange of some kind since October 2023, I'm not particularly impressed by the supposed commitment to "bring them home")
Jpost: Knesset to hold preliminary vote designating UNRWA a terror organization
“The purpose of this bill is to declare UNRWA as a terrorist organization for all intents and purposes as well as order the termination of the relations [and the cooperation] of the State of Israel with the agency, either directly or indirectly,” Israel Beytenu MK Yulia Malinovksy wrote in the introduction to the bill, which she authored.
(...)Malinovksy, whose party is in the opposition--
Yet, according to wiki, they're classified as conservative right-wing, but secular.
Anyway, Karim Khan's interview with the Sunday Times: “What this comes down to is, ‘Do we want to live in a world where law is applied equally or one where we close our eyes and turn away because of our allegiances?’ ” he said.
(...) But in his first major interview since the announcement, Khan has hit back at critics, including Rishi Sunak, who called the decision “deeply unhelpful”, and President Biden, who called it “outrageous”.
“Our job is not to make friends,” he shrugged. “It’s to do our job whether we are applauded or condemned. We have to underline the equal worth of every child, every woman, every civilian in a world that is increasingly polarised and if we don’t do that, what’s the point of us?”
(...) He added: “Much more important than me or the ICC, the world is looking at this situation. In Latin America, Africa and Asia they are seeing this as a crystallising point. Are powerful states sincere when they say there’s a body of law or is this rules-based system all a nonsense, simply a tool of Nato and a post-colonial world, with no real intention of applying law equally?”
(...) “I am not saying that Israel with its democracy and its supreme court is akin to Hamas, of course not. I couldn’t be clearer, Israel has every right to protect its population and to get the hostages back. But nobody has a licence to commit war crimes or crimes against humanity. The means define us.”
When asked recently by a senior official what Israel could do given that it didn’t know where the hostages were, in tunnels or houses, or how they were being kept, he said he gave the example of Britain during the IRA.
“There were attempts to kill Margaret Thatcher, Airey Neave was blown up, Lord Mountbatten was blown up, there was the Enniskillen attack, we had kneecappings … But the British didn’t decide to say, ‘Well, on the Falls Road [the heart of Catholic Belfast] there undoubtedly may be some IRA members and Republican sympathisers, so therefore let’s drop a 2,000lb bomb on the Falls Road.’ You can’t do that.
“Law must have some purpose, that’s what separates states that respect the law from criminal groups and terrorists. And that’s all I have been trying to do, apply law based on facts, and that’s what we must do whatever condemnation we get.”
(...) Khan said: “Look what all major relief agencies say, what we are seeing of emaciated children. Even if we don’t trust Palestinian doctors, we have American and British doctors speaking of conducting amputations without anaesthetics, of babies dying in incubators because the power is turned off, of people dying because there is no insulin.”
“This is not how war is supposed to be waged,” he added. “If this is what compliance with international humanitarian law looks like, then the Geneva Conventions serve no purpose.”
(...) Khan acknowledges that civilian casualties are an unfortunate reality of armed conflict, particularly in urban areas, but adds: “It’s another thing for civilians to be deliberately targeted. You can’t have as a common plan collective punishment. It’s absolutely legitimate for Israel to have the objective to defeat Hamas and to get hostages out, I support that. But the way you engage must be compliant with law.”
He dismissed as a “red herring’ the recent dispute over the casualty figures for Gaza, which arose after the UN shifted from endorsing a figure of more than 35,000 dead to about 25,000 “identified’ dead Palestinians, plus an additional 10,000 unidentified dead. Even with the lower figure, “every one is a tragedy”, he said.
posted by cendawanita at 11:08 AM on May 27 [11 favorites]
We are actively engaging the IDF and partners on the ground to assess what happened, and understand that the IDF is conducting an investigation.
...which will consist, as usual, of combing through its personnel files to find the lowest-ranked "bad apple" whose actions Blinken can maintain a straight face while regretfully deploring.
posted by flabdablet at 12:33 PM on May 27 [4 favorites]
...which will consist, as usual, of combing through its personnel files to find the lowest-ranked "bad apple" whose actions Blinken can maintain a straight face while regretfully deploring.
posted by flabdablet at 12:33 PM on May 27 [4 favorites]
Rafah is still undergoing heavy bombing
posted by cendawanita at 7:53 PM on May 27 [4 favorites]
posted by cendawanita at 7:53 PM on May 27 [4 favorites]
of combing through its personnel files to find the lowest-ranked "bad apple"
As they're looking for that one, they found this one: IDF reservist who called for mutiny dismissed from duty after interrogation
posted by cendawanita at 11:22 PM on May 27 [4 favorites]
As they're looking for that one, they found this one: IDF reservist who called for mutiny dismissed from duty after interrogation
posted by cendawanita at 11:22 PM on May 27 [4 favorites]
I'm sorry I've been a little busy and am late to reply, but
"I haven’t just seen the clips, I’ve seen it up close. Ive been tear gassed by the IDF during a peaceful protest. I saw the IDF shoot a Palestinian in Bethlehem and had to run for my life and hide in a convent until the violence ended. I’ve worked with Palestinian teens, seen their scars from beatings and heard their stories. I’ve heard the stories of now old men who experienced the Nabka."
sounds pretty admirable. What I don't understand is how someone with those experiences would come to parrot the Israeli line uncritically. Most recently with the death counts, with the mistranslation, you have to understand, you keep showing up a day late repeating the already debunked IDF line.
Like, unless your position is that you think the IDF was right to do all the things you describe, I don't understand how it wouldn't have imparted at least a layer of cynicism when it comes to their press releases. It seems like you're deep in some milieu where you're being fed the right responses to each new appalling headline, never to actively accept that a single Israeli has committed a crime.
posted by Audreynachrome at 5:58 AM on May 28 [6 favorites]
"I haven’t just seen the clips, I’ve seen it up close. Ive been tear gassed by the IDF during a peaceful protest. I saw the IDF shoot a Palestinian in Bethlehem and had to run for my life and hide in a convent until the violence ended. I’ve worked with Palestinian teens, seen their scars from beatings and heard their stories. I’ve heard the stories of now old men who experienced the Nabka."
sounds pretty admirable. What I don't understand is how someone with those experiences would come to parrot the Israeli line uncritically. Most recently with the death counts, with the mistranslation, you have to understand, you keep showing up a day late repeating the already debunked IDF line.
Like, unless your position is that you think the IDF was right to do all the things you describe, I don't understand how it wouldn't have imparted at least a layer of cynicism when it comes to their press releases. It seems like you're deep in some milieu where you're being fed the right responses to each new appalling headline, never to actively accept that a single Israeli has committed a crime.
posted by Audreynachrome at 5:58 AM on May 28 [6 favorites]
To tl:dr, I think at this point, whether you want to give Palestinians the benefit of the doubt, anyone who is still freely granting it to Israel is either so incredibly naive as to only be deserving of pity and help, or willingly blind and complicit.
posted by Audreynachrome at 6:05 AM on May 28 [3 favorites]
posted by Audreynachrome at 6:05 AM on May 28 [3 favorites]
It is not cynical to be doubtful of Israeli talking points. It only reflects a clear-eyed view of history. You can observe such skepticism from historians, journalists, military experts, and many regular people who have been following the news over the course of the genocide.
posted by i like crows very much at 7:11 AM on May 28 [4 favorites]
posted by i like crows very much at 7:11 AM on May 28 [4 favorites]
To be fair, historians, journalists and most kinds of expert are Hamas, that being the only plausible motivation for insisting that the words of the Rome Statute mean what they say.
posted by flabdablet at 8:31 AM on May 28 [2 favorites]
posted by flabdablet at 8:31 AM on May 28 [2 favorites]
Meanwhile, the Israelis have been surveilling and targeting the ICC and Palestinian rights groups to try to avoid war crimes probes over the past 9 years: The intelligence information obtained via surveillance was passed on to a secret team of top Israeli government lawyers and diplomats, who traveled to The Hague for confidential meetings with ICC officials in an attempt to “feed [the chief prosecutor] information that would make her doubt the basis of her right to be dealing with this question.” The intelligence was also used by the Israeli military to retroactively open investigations into incidents that were of interest to the ICC, to try to prove that Israel’s legal system is capable of holding its own to account.
Additionally, as the Guardian reported earlier today, the Mossad, Israel’s foreign intelligence agency, ran its own parallel operation which sought out compromising information on Bensouda and her close family members in an apparent attempt to sabotage the ICC’s investigation. The agency’s former head, Yossi Cohen, personally attempted to “enlist” Bensouda and manipulate her into complying with Israel’s wishes, according to sources familiar with his activities, causing the then-prosecutor to fear for her personal safety.
The Israeli spy chief 'threatened' ICC prosecutor over war crimes inquiry: The former head of the Mossad, Israel’s foreign intelligence agency, allegedly threatened a chief prosecutor of the international criminal court in a series of secret meetings in which he tried to pressure her into abandoning a war crimes investigation, the Guardian can reveal.
Yossi Cohen’s covert contacts with the ICC’s then prosecutor, Fatou Bensouda, took place in the years leading up to her decision to open a formal investigation into alleged war crimes and crimes against humanity in occupied Palestinian territories.
That investigation, launched in 2021, culminated last week when Bensouda’s successor, Karim Khan, announced that he was seeking an arrest warrant for the Israeli prime minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, over the country’s conduct in its war in Gaza.
Israel is still continuing to bomb Rafah even after international condemnation.
EU foreign ministers discuss sanctions on Israel if it doesn't comply with international law: “For the first time at an EU meeting, in a real way, I’ve seen significant discussion on sanctions and ‘what if,'” Martin said. He qualified that there is “some distance between people articulating the need for a sanctions-based approach if Israel does not comply with the ICJ’s ruling … to agreement in the Council meeting, given all of the different perspectives there.”
“But there is a lot of concern … amongst member states in respect of what is a clear situation where the ICJ have ruled, made provisional orders, and the EU has always upheld the independence of that court and the need for nations to comply with it,” he said.
posted by toastyk at 9:35 AM on May 28 [7 favorites]
Additionally, as the Guardian reported earlier today, the Mossad, Israel’s foreign intelligence agency, ran its own parallel operation which sought out compromising information on Bensouda and her close family members in an apparent attempt to sabotage the ICC’s investigation. The agency’s former head, Yossi Cohen, personally attempted to “enlist” Bensouda and manipulate her into complying with Israel’s wishes, according to sources familiar with his activities, causing the then-prosecutor to fear for her personal safety.
The Israeli spy chief 'threatened' ICC prosecutor over war crimes inquiry: The former head of the Mossad, Israel’s foreign intelligence agency, allegedly threatened a chief prosecutor of the international criminal court in a series of secret meetings in which he tried to pressure her into abandoning a war crimes investigation, the Guardian can reveal.
Yossi Cohen’s covert contacts with the ICC’s then prosecutor, Fatou Bensouda, took place in the years leading up to her decision to open a formal investigation into alleged war crimes and crimes against humanity in occupied Palestinian territories.
That investigation, launched in 2021, culminated last week when Bensouda’s successor, Karim Khan, announced that he was seeking an arrest warrant for the Israeli prime minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, over the country’s conduct in its war in Gaza.
Israel is still continuing to bomb Rafah even after international condemnation.
EU foreign ministers discuss sanctions on Israel if it doesn't comply with international law: “For the first time at an EU meeting, in a real way, I’ve seen significant discussion on sanctions and ‘what if,'” Martin said. He qualified that there is “some distance between people articulating the need for a sanctions-based approach if Israel does not comply with the ICJ’s ruling … to agreement in the Council meeting, given all of the different perspectives there.”
“But there is a lot of concern … amongst member states in respect of what is a clear situation where the ICJ have ruled, made provisional orders, and the EU has always upheld the independence of that court and the need for nations to comply with it,” he said.
posted by toastyk at 9:35 AM on May 28 [7 favorites]
FYI clawsoon just posted an FPP with the Guardian links (it's a two-parter) of the ICC snoop story.
As I said there, you can pair this with a slightly earlier Guardian piece too: Decades of spying and repression: the anti-Palestinian origins of American Islamophobia -
It’s often assumed that Islamophobia is the driving force behind US anti-Palestinian bigotry. In fact, it’s the other way around
In US history, anti-Palestinian bigotry, expressed primarily through repressive practices of the US government, almost always came first. This anti-Palestinianism then manifested into a generalized anti-Arab racism, which only later – especially after 9/11 – morphed into the more widespread Islamophobia that we recognize today. Understanding this history can not only help explain the complex ways that both anti-Palestinianism and Islamophobia operate in the United States but can also point to what is missed when anti-Palestinian bigotry is subsumed into the frame of Islamophobia.
(...) After 1967, with the numbers of Arabs in the United States growing and with Arab activists now challenging the American consensus on the region, Arabs in the US captured the paranoid eyes of the federal government. (African American Muslims were already under surveillance, more out of the anti-Black beliefs held by the government than Islamophobia.) It is this history, of anti-Palestinianism after 1967, that is often overlooked.
Shortly after the 1967 Arab-Israeli war, Arabs and Arab Americans organizing for Palestine became subject to warrantless government surveillance. The Arabs being spied upon, however, didn’t know they were subject to surveillance until after 1972, the year the Lebanese American attorney (and legendary activist for Palestinian rights) Abdeen Jabara sued the federal government after suspecting he had been targeted. Jabara, who was then the president of the Association of American Arab University Graduates, discovered that the National Security Agency had been keeping tabs on his political activity since 1967, including the organizations he belonged to, his foreign and domestic travel, summaries of his public speeches, and more. The NSA had tapped his phone and transcribed more than 40 different conversations, including with his clients, and exchanged information about him with at least three foreign governments.
The FBI also included Arabs in America in Cointelpro, a now notorious FBI program that sought to destroy largely Black and leftwing organizations that the government considered subversive. And in 1972, the Nixon administration began “Operation Boulder”. The government proudly announced this program, which screened the visa status of anyone with an Arabic surname, and it led to harassment and intimidation of Arab communities around the USA. FBI agents would even leave their calling cards with the letters F-B-I written out in Arabic with Palestinians and other Arabs in the country.
(...) But why are the anti-Palestinian origins of American Islamophobia glossed over? Could it be that, by thinking of Islamophobia primarily as a problem of religious acceptance, we shift the focus to religious tolerance, rather than reckoning with what the US might owe Palestine? There’s a long tradition of overcoming religious intolerance in this country, and this way Islamophobia becomes legible almost as the yin to antisemitism’s yang. Meanwhile, the hard work of reckoning with what the US might owe Palestine is deftly avoided. After all, it’s a lot easier to get your member of Congress to recognize the Muslim holiday of Eid al-Fitr than to recognize Palestine.
posted by cendawanita at 9:50 AM on May 28 [9 favorites]
As I said there, you can pair this with a slightly earlier Guardian piece too: Decades of spying and repression: the anti-Palestinian origins of American Islamophobia -
It’s often assumed that Islamophobia is the driving force behind US anti-Palestinian bigotry. In fact, it’s the other way around
In US history, anti-Palestinian bigotry, expressed primarily through repressive practices of the US government, almost always came first. This anti-Palestinianism then manifested into a generalized anti-Arab racism, which only later – especially after 9/11 – morphed into the more widespread Islamophobia that we recognize today. Understanding this history can not only help explain the complex ways that both anti-Palestinianism and Islamophobia operate in the United States but can also point to what is missed when anti-Palestinian bigotry is subsumed into the frame of Islamophobia.
(...) After 1967, with the numbers of Arabs in the United States growing and with Arab activists now challenging the American consensus on the region, Arabs in the US captured the paranoid eyes of the federal government. (African American Muslims were already under surveillance, more out of the anti-Black beliefs held by the government than Islamophobia.) It is this history, of anti-Palestinianism after 1967, that is often overlooked.
Shortly after the 1967 Arab-Israeli war, Arabs and Arab Americans organizing for Palestine became subject to warrantless government surveillance. The Arabs being spied upon, however, didn’t know they were subject to surveillance until after 1972, the year the Lebanese American attorney (and legendary activist for Palestinian rights) Abdeen Jabara sued the federal government after suspecting he had been targeted. Jabara, who was then the president of the Association of American Arab University Graduates, discovered that the National Security Agency had been keeping tabs on his political activity since 1967, including the organizations he belonged to, his foreign and domestic travel, summaries of his public speeches, and more. The NSA had tapped his phone and transcribed more than 40 different conversations, including with his clients, and exchanged information about him with at least three foreign governments.
The FBI also included Arabs in America in Cointelpro, a now notorious FBI program that sought to destroy largely Black and leftwing organizations that the government considered subversive. And in 1972, the Nixon administration began “Operation Boulder”. The government proudly announced this program, which screened the visa status of anyone with an Arabic surname, and it led to harassment and intimidation of Arab communities around the USA. FBI agents would even leave their calling cards with the letters F-B-I written out in Arabic with Palestinians and other Arabs in the country.
(...) But why are the anti-Palestinian origins of American Islamophobia glossed over? Could it be that, by thinking of Islamophobia primarily as a problem of religious acceptance, we shift the focus to religious tolerance, rather than reckoning with what the US might owe Palestine? There’s a long tradition of overcoming religious intolerance in this country, and this way Islamophobia becomes legible almost as the yin to antisemitism’s yang. Meanwhile, the hard work of reckoning with what the US might owe Palestine is deftly avoided. After all, it’s a lot easier to get your member of Congress to recognize the Muslim holiday of Eid al-Fitr than to recognize Palestine.
posted by cendawanita at 9:50 AM on May 28 [9 favorites]
(idk which thread to post this in, so i'm posting it both places.)
The thing i keep dwelling on, lately, which gets extra chilling when events like this foreground Israel's far-flung intelligence (and assassination) operations, is:
There are currently about six million Palestinians in diaspora. I assume Israel is hoping that if they genocide all the ones actually in Palestine, the diaspora will just … fade away or lose cohesiveness. But if they remain a people in diaspora, a people with a strong cultural identity that, among other things, crystallizes into its memory the fact of a genocide, what does Israel plan to do about them in the long term?
posted by adrienneleigh at 12:16 PM on May 28 [4 favorites]
The thing i keep dwelling on, lately, which gets extra chilling when events like this foreground Israel's far-flung intelligence (and assassination) operations, is:
There are currently about six million Palestinians in diaspora. I assume Israel is hoping that if they genocide all the ones actually in Palestine, the diaspora will just … fade away or lose cohesiveness. But if they remain a people in diaspora, a people with a strong cultural identity that, among other things, crystallizes into its memory the fact of a genocide, what does Israel plan to do about them in the long term?
posted by adrienneleigh at 12:16 PM on May 28 [4 favorites]
Probably the same thing European Imperialists effectively did with other black and brown diaspora... keep us constantly moving and constantly migrating at a transgenerational pace, while capitalizing off our struggles for the sake of Western Civilization (or White Supremacy, of White Christianity, or whatever). In the meantime, up here in the Great White North our domestic labor base is about to become well supplemented again. Good thing Trudeau knows that Muslim families produce doctors faster than any other diaspora (or apparently they must, considering how they qualify as being higher-priority housing than any other group in the local ethnic milieu, but I digress).
Also. Impressive how the US government is nearly matched by the Canadian government in their collective incompetence at providing Indigenous people anywhere with clean food and water, no matter where on this planet they happen to reside.
posted by human ecologist at 1:24 PM on May 28 [3 favorites]
Also. Impressive how the US government is nearly matched by the Canadian government in their collective incompetence at providing Indigenous people anywhere with clean food and water, no matter where on this planet they happen to reside.
posted by human ecologist at 1:24 PM on May 28 [3 favorites]
what does Israel plan to do about them in the long term
The same thing Zionists have been doing for decades, probably, denying the existence of any such thing as the Palestinian people and pointing to shoddy scholarship that was debunked almost 40 years ago as evidence for their claims.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 2:32 PM on May 28 [3 favorites]
The same thing Zionists have been doing for decades, probably, denying the existence of any such thing as the Palestinian people and pointing to shoddy scholarship that was debunked almost 40 years ago as evidence for their claims.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 2:32 PM on May 28 [3 favorites]
I have been critical of Israel and I’m not parroting the Israeli taking points. You sound like some Israeli calling anyone with even muted criticism of Israel an antisemite.
posted by interogative mood at 4:09 PM on May 28 [1 favorite]
posted by interogative mood at 4:09 PM on May 28 [1 favorite]
Israel rolls their tanks into Rafah - The Times video; Fox (first news link I got googling it)
I googled because according to John Kirby, the US govt hasn't seen anything but is keeping a close watch apparently.
As reported by Laura Rozen: “I don't want to talk about Israeli Defense Force operations. but my understanding is, and I believe the Israelis have spoken to this, that they are moving along something called a Philadelphia corridor which is on the outskirts of the town, not in the town proper, that's what the Israelis have said.”
And critiqued by Hafsa Halaqah: “Something called a Philadelphia corridor”
Any WH correspondents educated enough to push Kirby on Israel tanks rolling into an area they’re legally *not allowed to enter* as per terms of the peace treaty with Egypt?
No, didn’t think so. Egyptian soldiers are dead as a result.
(...) Honestly, what an unbelievable piece of shit John Kirby is. Lying, pretending, knowing his WH press corps won’t question it. I would hope by tomorrow every single journo there has read up on the *PHILADELPHI CORRIDOR*. The US is a signatory to the Camp David Accords. WTAF, ppl?
Note spelling.
posted by cendawanita at 8:44 PM on May 28 [7 favorites]
I googled because according to John Kirby, the US govt hasn't seen anything but is keeping a close watch apparently.
As reported by Laura Rozen: “I don't want to talk about Israeli Defense Force operations. but my understanding is, and I believe the Israelis have spoken to this, that they are moving along something called a Philadelphia corridor which is on the outskirts of the town, not in the town proper, that's what the Israelis have said.”
And critiqued by Hafsa Halaqah: “Something called a Philadelphia corridor”
Any WH correspondents educated enough to push Kirby on Israel tanks rolling into an area they’re legally *not allowed to enter* as per terms of the peace treaty with Egypt?
No, didn’t think so. Egyptian soldiers are dead as a result.
(...) Honestly, what an unbelievable piece of shit John Kirby is. Lying, pretending, knowing his WH press corps won’t question it. I would hope by tomorrow every single journo there has read up on the *PHILADELPHI CORRIDOR*. The US is a signatory to the Camp David Accords. WTAF, ppl?
Note spelling.
posted by cendawanita at 8:44 PM on May 28 [7 favorites]
Sad trombone: Noga Tarnopolsky (summarizing this Hebrew Haaretz livepost): 💥The US army is expected to announce the end of operations for the floating dock it built off Gaza, after numerous mishaps and malfunctions connected to heavy seas.
Maybe Biden gets a warrant too... I mean CIA doesn't go around threatening ICC Prosecutors right. /s
posted by cendawanita at 9:09 PM on May 28 [4 favorites]
Maybe Biden gets a warrant too... I mean CIA doesn't go around threatening ICC Prosecutors right. /s
posted by cendawanita at 9:09 PM on May 28 [4 favorites]
AP report on the pier: The U.S.-built temporary pier that has been taking humanitarian aid to starving Palestinians for less than two weeks will be removed from the coast of Gaza to be repaired after getting damaged in rough seas and weather, the Pentagon said Tuesday.
Over the next two days, the pier will be pulled from the beach and sent to the southern Israeli city of Ashdod, where U.S. Central Command will repair it, Pentagon spokeswoman Sabrina Singh told reporters. She said the fixes will take “at least over a week” and then the pier will need to be anchored back into the beach in Gaza.
“From when it was operational, it was working, and we just had sort of an unfortunate confluence of weather storms that made it inoperable for a bit,” Singh said. “Hopefully just a little over a week, we should be back up and running.”
The pier, used to carry in humanitarian aid arriving by sea, is one of the few ways that free food and other supplies are getting to Palestinians who the U.N. says are on the brink of famine amid the nearly 8-month-old war between Israel and Hamas in Gaza.
Background reporting from Ken Klippenstein: One of the few attempts to contextualize this figure that I could find came, from all places, the U.S. government. During a press conference on humanitarian aid to Gaza last Thursday, USAID made a startling admission: less aid is reaching Gaza since the pier was constructed than before.
“In terms of how that compares to what had been getting in prior to the recent military activities in Rafah governate [sic]” the Director of USAID's Levant Response Management Team, Daniel Dieckhaus, said, “the amount of assistance that had been getting in was higher in April than it is now,” noting that the amount that the U.N. agencies have been able to collect from border points was down, especially as the access points have declined in number.
So, broadly speaking, the aid situation has actually worsened despite the existence of the pier. Dieckhaus called the decline “logical” due to “recent military activities” — a tactful allusion to Israel’s slowing of aid deliveries into Gaza and the increasingly complex concentration in Rafah, where hundreds of thousands of civilians are crammed into a small area while fighting goes on all around them.
Is Israel responsible for the drop in aid, as many believe? And how much of the overall supply does it control? And what role has the United States played in supplementing the amount of aid that is not going into Gaza through Israel and Egypt? The simple answer is that it seems impossible to tell. We know that Palestinian civilians are not getting enough, but whatever the reason, the situation is a far cry from the “massive increase” in aid President Biden promised in his State of the Union speech in March, when he announced he’d directed the military to construct the pier.
Dieckhaus’s admission that the situation is worse today does not appear to have been reported on by any major media outlet. The media instead seems fixated on the pier’s comedy of slapstick mishaps reminiscent of a Three Stooges episode: the months of effort, the non combat injuries caused to three U.S. soldiers assigned to the pier (one for a sprained ankle); the two supporting vessels becoming unmoored and washing up on the beach; and the pier itself breaking apart from rough seas, resulting in the suspension of aid deliveries today.
posted by cendawanita at 10:00 PM on May 28 [6 favorites]
Over the next two days, the pier will be pulled from the beach and sent to the southern Israeli city of Ashdod, where U.S. Central Command will repair it, Pentagon spokeswoman Sabrina Singh told reporters. She said the fixes will take “at least over a week” and then the pier will need to be anchored back into the beach in Gaza.
“From when it was operational, it was working, and we just had sort of an unfortunate confluence of weather storms that made it inoperable for a bit,” Singh said. “Hopefully just a little over a week, we should be back up and running.”
The pier, used to carry in humanitarian aid arriving by sea, is one of the few ways that free food and other supplies are getting to Palestinians who the U.N. says are on the brink of famine amid the nearly 8-month-old war between Israel and Hamas in Gaza.
Background reporting from Ken Klippenstein: One of the few attempts to contextualize this figure that I could find came, from all places, the U.S. government. During a press conference on humanitarian aid to Gaza last Thursday, USAID made a startling admission: less aid is reaching Gaza since the pier was constructed than before.
“In terms of how that compares to what had been getting in prior to the recent military activities in Rafah governate [sic]” the Director of USAID's Levant Response Management Team, Daniel Dieckhaus, said, “the amount of assistance that had been getting in was higher in April than it is now,” noting that the amount that the U.N. agencies have been able to collect from border points was down, especially as the access points have declined in number.
So, broadly speaking, the aid situation has actually worsened despite the existence of the pier. Dieckhaus called the decline “logical” due to “recent military activities” — a tactful allusion to Israel’s slowing of aid deliveries into Gaza and the increasingly complex concentration in Rafah, where hundreds of thousands of civilians are crammed into a small area while fighting goes on all around them.
Is Israel responsible for the drop in aid, as many believe? And how much of the overall supply does it control? And what role has the United States played in supplementing the amount of aid that is not going into Gaza through Israel and Egypt? The simple answer is that it seems impossible to tell. We know that Palestinian civilians are not getting enough, but whatever the reason, the situation is a far cry from the “massive increase” in aid President Biden promised in his State of the Union speech in March, when he announced he’d directed the military to construct the pier.
Dieckhaus’s admission that the situation is worse today does not appear to have been reported on by any major media outlet. The media instead seems fixated on the pier’s comedy of slapstick mishaps reminiscent of a Three Stooges episode: the months of effort, the non combat injuries caused to three U.S. soldiers assigned to the pier (one for a sprained ankle); the two supporting vessels becoming unmoored and washing up on the beach; and the pier itself breaking apart from rough seas, resulting in the suspension of aid deliveries today.
posted by cendawanita at 10:00 PM on May 28 [6 favorites]
One time US presidential candidate Nikki Haley visits Israel and signs 155mm artillery shells with 'Finish Them'.
posted by phigmov at 12:33 AM on May 29 [3 favorites]
posted by phigmov at 12:33 AM on May 29 [3 favorites]
Oh I see: Israel says Gaza war likely to last another seven months as tanks probe Rafah
posted by cendawanita at 9:00 AM on May 29 [1 favorite]
posted by cendawanita at 9:00 AM on May 29 [1 favorite]
Haaretz went to print with chunks of text redacted by the censor. (via Varoufakis on Twitter)
posted by adamvasco at 9:10 AM on May 29 [1 favorite]
posted by adamvasco at 9:10 AM on May 29 [1 favorite]
Last weekend, Bisan posted: Look at what US Weapons Have Done
Today on CNN: US-made munitions were used in deadly strike on Rafah tent camp, CNN analysis shows
CNN geolocated videos showing tents in flames in the aftermath of the strike on the camp for internally displaced people (IDPs) known as “Kuwait Peace Camp 1.”
In video shared on social media, which CNN geolocated to the same scene by matching details including the camp’s entrance sign and the tiles on the ground, the tail of a US-made GBU-39 small-diameter bomb (SDB) is visible, according to four explosive weapons experts who reviewed the video for CNN.
The GBU-39, manufactured by Boeing, is a high-precision munition “designed to attack strategically important point targets,” and result in low collateral damage, explosive weapons expert Chris Cobb-Smith told CNN.
However, “using any munition, even of this size, will always incur risks in a densely populated area,” said Cobb-Smith, a former British Army artillery officer.
Trevor Ball, a former US Army senior explosive ordnance disposal team member who also identified the fragment as being from a GBU-39, explained to CNN how he drew his conclusion.
“The warhead portion [of the munition] is distinct, and the guidance and wing section is extremely unique compared to other munitions. Guidance and wing sections of munitions are often the remnants left over even after a munition detonates. I saw the tail actuation section and instantly knew it was one of the SDB/GBU-39 variants.”
CNN’s identification of the munition is consistent with a claim made by Israel Defense Forces spokesperson Rear Admiral Daniel Hagari in a briefing about the tragedy on Tuesday. Hagari said the strike – which he said targeted senior Hamas commanders – used two munitions with small warheads containing 17 kilos of explosives, adding these bombs were “the smallest munitions that our jets could use.”
Oh that's a relief.
Embedded video: CBS's Ed O'Keefe To WH: "How Many More Charred Corpses" Does Biden Have To See Before Changing Israel Policy?
Re: Haaretz - I wonder if it's an editorial stunt or even worse somehow than this report: Internal IDF Report Finds Two Gazans Died After Being Beaten en Route to Israeli Prison -
The detainees were on their way to the Sde Teiman detention facility, where the majority of. While several soldiers were questioned about the incident, no one has been arrested on suspicion of causing their deaths
Hmm maybe not - reading the article the details are fairly vague and in passive verb.
Another leak: In leaked conversation, ‘desperate’ IDF negotiator says there’ll be no hostage deal with the current government
Maj. Gen. (Res.) Nitzan Alon, who is a member of Israel’s negotiating team in the hostage deal talks, told IDF officials who oversee issues relating to the hostages and their families that the current Israeli government will not allow for any deal to come to fruition, Channel 12 reports.
The report quotes Alon as saying that negotiators “are desperate,” as the coalition in its current constellation will not allow for a hostage deal, due to Hamas’s demand for a complete ceasefire: “We are desperate. With this government formation, there will be no deal.”
“The deal I’m pushing for would provide for the return of all the hostages, while Hamas insists that it must provide for an end to the war,” Alon is further quoted as having said.
Threadreader version of one of l Younis Tirawi's recent threads:
First Publication |
The Israeli military is using the Noura Kaabi Dialysis Hospital in the Jabalia Refugee Camp as a military base and operational center amid the ongoing invasion. This is the second hospital that they hide behind, following Tika Hospital in Netzarim.
Speaking of accusations and confessions, Samuel Catlin : Really does make you feel insane that “beheaded babies” was *the* fiction breathlessly circulated in the media to render unthinkable any attitude toward Hamas other than condemnation, and now, finally, footage exists of headless infant corpses but they’re all Palestinian
Another resignation: Another State Department official resigns over Gaza, taking aim at aid - The official, Stacy Gilbert, resigned Tuesday. She told colleagues that the State Department was wrong to conclude Israel had not obstructed aid to Gaza.
Not a long article, but the second and final para if you can't see it:
The outgoing official, Stacy Gilbert, served in the State Department’s Bureau of Population, Refugees and Migration. Gilbert sent an email to staff Tuesday explaining her view that the State Department was wrong to conclude that Israel had not obstructed humanitarian assistance to Gaza, officials who read the letter said.
20 aid bodies signed this statement on Amnesty: New crossing points and ‘floating dock’ are cosmetic changes, as humanitarian access disintegrates in Gaza, warn aid agencies
The systematic obstruction at Israeli-controlled crossing points, intensified hostilities, and prolonged telecommunications blackouts have reduced the volume of aid entering Gaza, including food, fuel, and medical supplies, to some of the lowest levels witnessed in the last seven months, said 20 aid agencies.
posted by cendawanita at 9:32 AM on May 29 [9 favorites]
Today on CNN: US-made munitions were used in deadly strike on Rafah tent camp, CNN analysis shows
CNN geolocated videos showing tents in flames in the aftermath of the strike on the camp for internally displaced people (IDPs) known as “Kuwait Peace Camp 1.”
In video shared on social media, which CNN geolocated to the same scene by matching details including the camp’s entrance sign and the tiles on the ground, the tail of a US-made GBU-39 small-diameter bomb (SDB) is visible, according to four explosive weapons experts who reviewed the video for CNN.
The GBU-39, manufactured by Boeing, is a high-precision munition “designed to attack strategically important point targets,” and result in low collateral damage, explosive weapons expert Chris Cobb-Smith told CNN.
However, “using any munition, even of this size, will always incur risks in a densely populated area,” said Cobb-Smith, a former British Army artillery officer.
Trevor Ball, a former US Army senior explosive ordnance disposal team member who also identified the fragment as being from a GBU-39, explained to CNN how he drew his conclusion.
“The warhead portion [of the munition] is distinct, and the guidance and wing section is extremely unique compared to other munitions. Guidance and wing sections of munitions are often the remnants left over even after a munition detonates. I saw the tail actuation section and instantly knew it was one of the SDB/GBU-39 variants.”
CNN’s identification of the munition is consistent with a claim made by Israel Defense Forces spokesperson Rear Admiral Daniel Hagari in a briefing about the tragedy on Tuesday. Hagari said the strike – which he said targeted senior Hamas commanders – used two munitions with small warheads containing 17 kilos of explosives, adding these bombs were “the smallest munitions that our jets could use.”
Oh that's a relief.
Embedded video: CBS's Ed O'Keefe To WH: "How Many More Charred Corpses" Does Biden Have To See Before Changing Israel Policy?
Re: Haaretz - I wonder if it's an editorial stunt or even worse somehow than this report: Internal IDF Report Finds Two Gazans Died After Being Beaten en Route to Israeli Prison -
The detainees were on their way to the Sde Teiman detention facility, where the majority of. While several soldiers were questioned about the incident, no one has been arrested on suspicion of causing their deaths
Hmm maybe not - reading the article the details are fairly vague and in passive verb.
Another leak: In leaked conversation, ‘desperate’ IDF negotiator says there’ll be no hostage deal with the current government
Maj. Gen. (Res.) Nitzan Alon, who is a member of Israel’s negotiating team in the hostage deal talks, told IDF officials who oversee issues relating to the hostages and their families that the current Israeli government will not allow for any deal to come to fruition, Channel 12 reports.
The report quotes Alon as saying that negotiators “are desperate,” as the coalition in its current constellation will not allow for a hostage deal, due to Hamas’s demand for a complete ceasefire: “We are desperate. With this government formation, there will be no deal.”
“The deal I’m pushing for would provide for the return of all the hostages, while Hamas insists that it must provide for an end to the war,” Alon is further quoted as having said.
Threadreader version of one of l Younis Tirawi's recent threads:
First Publication |
The Israeli military is using the Noura Kaabi Dialysis Hospital in the Jabalia Refugee Camp as a military base and operational center amid the ongoing invasion. This is the second hospital that they hide behind, following Tika Hospital in Netzarim.
Speaking of accusations and confessions, Samuel Catlin : Really does make you feel insane that “beheaded babies” was *the* fiction breathlessly circulated in the media to render unthinkable any attitude toward Hamas other than condemnation, and now, finally, footage exists of headless infant corpses but they’re all Palestinian
Another resignation: Another State Department official resigns over Gaza, taking aim at aid - The official, Stacy Gilbert, resigned Tuesday. She told colleagues that the State Department was wrong to conclude Israel had not obstructed aid to Gaza.
Not a long article, but the second and final para if you can't see it:
The outgoing official, Stacy Gilbert, served in the State Department’s Bureau of Population, Refugees and Migration. Gilbert sent an email to staff Tuesday explaining her view that the State Department was wrong to conclude that Israel had not obstructed humanitarian assistance to Gaza, officials who read the letter said.
20 aid bodies signed this statement on Amnesty: New crossing points and ‘floating dock’ are cosmetic changes, as humanitarian access disintegrates in Gaza, warn aid agencies
The systematic obstruction at Israeli-controlled crossing points, intensified hostilities, and prolonged telecommunications blackouts have reduced the volume of aid entering Gaza, including food, fuel, and medical supplies, to some of the lowest levels witnessed in the last seven months, said 20 aid agencies.
posted by cendawanita at 9:32 AM on May 29 [9 favorites]
Really does make you feel insane that “beheaded babies” was *the* fiction breathlessly circulated in the media to render unthinkable any attitude toward Hamas other than condemnation, and now, finally, footage exists of headless infant corpses but they’re all Palestinian
Every day i discover in myself new depths of hatred toward the US and Israeli governments and all the people supporting them, and it makes me want to die.
posted by adrienneleigh at 9:59 AM on May 29 [5 favorites]
Every day i discover in myself new depths of hatred toward the US and Israeli governments and all the people supporting them, and it makes me want to die.
posted by adrienneleigh at 9:59 AM on May 29 [5 favorites]
Another senior State Department official has resigned (archive link), citing the NSM-20 report which concluded that Israel wasn't obstructing aid.
The outgoing official, Stacy Gilbert, served in the State Department’s Bureau of Population, Refugees and Migration. Gilbert sent an email to staff Tuesday explaining her view that the State Department was wrong to conclude that Israel had not obstructed humanitarian assistance to Gaza, officials who read the letter said.posted by adrienneleigh at 10:26 AM on May 29 [4 favorites]
Don't you dare allow any of the pricks responsible for these atrocities to outlive you. Don't you dare do their work for them by turning that rage and hatred inward.
Don't you dare.
posted by flabdablet at 10:27 AM on May 29 [9 favorites]
Don't you dare.
posted by flabdablet at 10:27 AM on May 29 [9 favorites]
The Israelis are doing quite a bit to spin it. The GBU-39 contains a small amount of high explosives in terms of weight but it is classed as a 250lb bomb. From the fragments and serial numbers collected they didn’t use one of the latest “focus lethality munition” (FLM) variants that are designed to limit collateral damage outside the 26ft radius blast zone.
posted by interogative mood at 10:43 AM on May 29
posted by interogative mood at 10:43 AM on May 29
i also just noticed that somehow i double-commented; sorry about that.
posted by adrienneleigh at 12:50 PM on May 29 [1 favorite]
posted by adrienneleigh at 12:50 PM on May 29 [1 favorite]
Would it matter if every rumor from October 7th about the scale of the atrocities was true? Is that all it takes to justify Israel’s response in your mind? Every mass casualty event or major terrorist incident has its share of myths, rumors, exaggerations and lies. Especially in the aftermath when people are still reeling from the shock.
Israel’s response has been disproportionate and unjustified in its scope. Hamas’ attack was also unjustified and disproportionate in its scope.
posted by interogative mood at 2:03 PM on May 29
Israel’s response has been disproportionate and unjustified in its scope. Hamas’ attack was also unjustified and disproportionate in its scope.
posted by interogative mood at 2:03 PM on May 29
Hamas’ attack was also unjustified and disproportionate in its scope
Israel's response has been actively genocidal. I don't know why you're still trying to draw some sort of equivalence, still, when it's very clear that what Israel is pursuing is a campaign of extermination and they don't intend to stop until there isn't a single Palestinian left alive in Gaza. This sort of gross bothsidesism is precisely why everyone except you has concluded you may as well be a Likudnik (you're clearly a Zionist, anyway, and there's functionally no difference, at this point).
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 2:27 PM on May 29 [13 favorites]
Israel's response has been actively genocidal. I don't know why you're still trying to draw some sort of equivalence, still, when it's very clear that what Israel is pursuing is a campaign of extermination and they don't intend to stop until there isn't a single Palestinian left alive in Gaza. This sort of gross bothsidesism is precisely why everyone except you has concluded you may as well be a Likudnik (you're clearly a Zionist, anyway, and there's functionally no difference, at this point).
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 2:27 PM on May 29 [13 favorites]
Hamas' attack ended up hurting and killing a bunch of illegitimate targets. That part is very bad! Other than that, it was neither unjustified nor disproportionate to nearly a century of colonial violence.
posted by adrienneleigh at 3:53 PM on May 29 [8 favorites]
posted by adrienneleigh at 3:53 PM on May 29 [8 favorites]
Would it matter if one side wasn't [more] guilty of sex crimes against children? Would it matter if one side's skin was also thoroughly and "purely" white?
None of that matters if what you want to do is precisely what you're doing now ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
"Would it matter if" doesn't really matter -- especially, say, in the context of contemporary Indian Residential School denialism, wherein would it have really mattered if the Indigenous people had been Christians already? Would it have mattered if their parents had consented to the rape and abuse of their children? Would it have even mattered if Indigenous leaders had actually said, "yes, please sexually mutilate our children -- we agree, it will be for their own good." No, probably not -- because the whole point was to be able to abuse and molest kids without [direct] consequences to one's self, family or community. People who want to abuse abuse, and once that mental switch has been firmly switched to "on", the excuse for justifying the behavior really becomes quite trivial. Details of age, gender, class, etc, somewhat fade to grey by that point.
If we were to rise up as a species and say, "Abusing* kids is what matters. When you cross that line, it doesn't matter how old, rich, or white/"white" you are -- these will not protect you because we have recognized as a species on this one and only planet we're on that this is the surest way to guarantee our self-annihilation," then it would matter.
*Abuse = active & passive, implicit & explicit, intentional & unintentional, through willful intent or negligence... in short, any interactive process that results in a short-circuiting of one's human potential, including via parasitic attachments such as with narcissists (e.g. Netanyahu, Putin, etc). Note that the constant withdraw of emotional energy from the targets/victims/host bodies is an absolute prerequisite for these types of relationship to endure. That's why it's so easy to recognize what Netanyahu is -- he needs Gaza, because otherwise without a constant supply of tortured children, he might have to feel his feels himself 🎻
posted by human ecologist at 4:46 PM on May 29 [1 favorite]
None of that matters if what you want to do is precisely what you're doing now ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
"Would it matter if" doesn't really matter -- especially, say, in the context of contemporary Indian Residential School denialism, wherein would it have really mattered if the Indigenous people had been Christians already? Would it have mattered if their parents had consented to the rape and abuse of their children? Would it have even mattered if Indigenous leaders had actually said, "yes, please sexually mutilate our children -- we agree, it will be for their own good." No, probably not -- because the whole point was to be able to abuse and molest kids without [direct] consequences to one's self, family or community. People who want to abuse abuse, and once that mental switch has been firmly switched to "on", the excuse for justifying the behavior really becomes quite trivial. Details of age, gender, class, etc, somewhat fade to grey by that point.
If we were to rise up as a species and say, "Abusing* kids is what matters. When you cross that line, it doesn't matter how old, rich, or white/"white" you are -- these will not protect you because we have recognized as a species on this one and only planet we're on that this is the surest way to guarantee our self-annihilation," then it would matter.
*Abuse = active & passive, implicit & explicit, intentional & unintentional, through willful intent or negligence... in short, any interactive process that results in a short-circuiting of one's human potential, including via parasitic attachments such as with narcissists (e.g. Netanyahu, Putin, etc). Note that the constant withdraw of emotional energy from the targets/victims/host bodies is an absolute prerequisite for these types of relationship to endure. That's why it's so easy to recognize what Netanyahu is -- he needs Gaza, because otherwise without a constant supply of tortured children, he might have to feel his feels himself 🎻
posted by human ecologist at 4:46 PM on May 29 [1 favorite]
French MP @alma_dufour with a dubbed version just down the thread.
posted by adamvasco at 6:27 PM on May 29 [3 favorites]
posted by adamvasco at 6:27 PM on May 29 [3 favorites]
Haaretz: Seven Israeli Cops Expected to Be Tried for Stamping Star of David on Palestinian's Face (archived)
Haaretz: IDF report confirms two Gazans beaten to death while in custody (archived)
NYT: NYU Nurse Is Fired After Calling the Gaza War a ‘Genocide’ in Speech (archived)
CBS: Adjunct professor fired by DePaul after optional assignment about Gaza
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 2:03 AM on May 30 [6 favorites]
Haaretz: IDF report confirms two Gazans beaten to death while in custody (archived)
NYT: NYU Nurse Is Fired After Calling the Gaza War a ‘Genocide’ in Speech (archived)
CBS: Adjunct professor fired by DePaul after optional assignment about Gaza
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 2:03 AM on May 30 [6 favorites]
Israel extends control of Gaza's entire land border
Oh wow does anyone know where this is going? Is there a roadmap anywhere -- *anywhere* -- in history to perhaps help us out here?
...
I have nothing to offer but my willingness to bear witness. May the student protests go on 🔥
posted by human ecologist at 6:49 AM on May 30 [2 favorites]
Oh wow does anyone know where this is going? Is there a roadmap anywhere -- *anywhere* -- in history to perhaps help us out here?
...
I have nothing to offer but my willingness to bear witness. May the student protests go on 🔥
posted by human ecologist at 6:49 AM on May 30 [2 favorites]
Andreas Malm (of the "How to Blow Up a Pipeline" fame, previously) wrote an incredibly rousing essay: Standing with the Palestinian resistance: A response to Matan Kaminer (verso blog).
It is a response to a critique of an earlier essay of his, but it most certainly stands on its own. Some quotes, emphasis not in the original:
It is a response to a critique of an earlier essay of his, but it most certainly stands on its own. Some quotes, emphasis not in the original:
Allow me to insert a personal note here. Since I first travelled and lived in occupied Palestine in the late 1990s and established contact with it, the PFLP has always been my favourite faction. For me, solidarity with the Palestinian resistance in general and its left in particular began long before October 7 and will continue long after; it is my deepest political conviction (alongside maybe two or three others). I wrote my first book (in Swedish) in 2002, based on my experiences during the month of April of that year. An American comrade and myself happened to be the first outsiders to enter mukhayam Jenin while the battle was still raging. We moved among the decomposed corpses, the pulverised buildings, the refugees who had their camp destroyed on top of their heads: the Palestinian ur-scene, eternally extrapolated on ever-larger scales, today in Jenin again – this endlessly tortured camp – but to an incomparably greater extent in Gaza. We tried to do what little we could to get some aid in. We also stumbled upon the severely wounded third leader of Jihad in his hiding place and brought him out for medical treatment. Sometimes I think that is the single most meaningful act I have performed in the realm of politics: obviously the life of a Jihad leader in mukhayam Jenin is worth more than one thousand texts. This is where I come from; this is who I am; climate, for me, came later. One reason I was so struck by that problem was that it appeared to me as a planetary version of the nakba. Here it is not one homeland that is being destroyed, but an entire liveable planet. It was something of this fractal pattern I sought to capture in my essay.and
So, personally, I came to climate through Palestine, and if I have sometimes called for the climate struggle to get real and militant, it is because Palestinians taught me the meaning of resistance. This emphatically does not mean that the climate movement should copy the tactics of the armed struggle – firing rockets or sniping soldiers or any other kind of targeting of human bodies – for a host of manifest reasons, one of them being that fossil capital is not a settler-colonial project. But there is one thing that should be emulated, and that is the spirit of resistance, the readiness to fight as though ones existential dignity hinges on it. If that spirit could be mobilised for a homeland, it should, one would think, also be possible to have something like it for the Earth. In any case, I have come to think that the meaning of life is to never give up – no matter if it’s too late to prevent catastrophe; no matter how many disasters pile up; no matter how overwhelmingly powerful the enemy is. And there is no force in the world today that practises this meaning like the Palestinian resistance.
One can familiarise oneself with actually existing Hamas by following, as I think everyone should, the speeches given by Abu Obeida. Since October 7, they have usually opened with the Islamic salutations and a token quotation from the Qur’an – some sura about how the weak will ultimately defeat the strong or about freedom finally coming – before quickly veering into expositions on the challenges facing the resistance, the achievements, the sacrifices, the crimes of the occupation, the virtues of solidarity, the path ahead. Don’t be scared! It’s great stuff, listen in. The messaging is thin on religion but laden with anti-colonial, anti-fascist rhetoric.and finally
When we speak of resistance against murderous oppression and the fight for survival and freedom, do we only bother about the past? Are we happy with it when it is so comfortably distant as to be amenable to kitsch? We have the Black Panthers in photo books and Malcolm X on our walls – then why not also the PFLP and Abu Obeida? Is revolutionary politics a posturing about the past, or about real struggles that happen as we speak? On what grounds do we admire the heroes from millennia of subaltern endeavours at self-emancipation, but not the Palestinian fighters who run all the way up to the tanks and deliver their bombs with their hands and dash off? Why should they not be in our pantheon? I see two possible reasons: we are actually not that serious about the commitment, or we do not consider Palestinian lives worthy enough to be fought for. This fight may well end in the defeat of a total destruction of Gaza and its people, and more beyond. Until then – so the streets of New York tell me – there will be quite a few of us who stay with the vow and stand with the resistance.posted by kmt at 6:51 AM on May 30 [4 favorites]
Protesters torch Israeli Embassy in Mexico City as Mexico seeks to join the ICJ genocide case against Israel.
posted by adamvasco at 7:27 AM on May 30 [2 favorites]
posted by adamvasco at 7:27 AM on May 30 [2 favorites]
More resignations from officials in the Biden admin.
Alexander Smith, a contractor for the US Agency for International Development (USAID), said he was given a choice between resignation and dismissal after preparing a presentation on maternal and child mortality among Palestinians, which was cancelled at the last minute by USAID leadership last week.
Smith, a senior adviser on gender, maternal health, child health, and nutrition chose to resign on Monday after four years at USAID. In his resignation letter to the head of the agency, Samantha Power, he complained about the inconsistencies in USAID’s approach to different countries and humanitarian crises, and the general treatment of Palestinians.
“I cannot do my job in an environment in which specific people cannot be acknowledged as fully human, or where gender and human rights principles apply to some, but not to others, depending on their race,” he wrote.
In another resignation on Tuesday, a state department official from the bureau of population, refugees and migration, Stacy Gilbert, sent an email to colleagues explaining that she was leaving because of an official finding by the department that Israel was not deliberately obstructing the flow of food or other aid into Gaza.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 7:59 AM on May 30 [6 favorites]
Alexander Smith, a contractor for the US Agency for International Development (USAID), said he was given a choice between resignation and dismissal after preparing a presentation on maternal and child mortality among Palestinians, which was cancelled at the last minute by USAID leadership last week.
Smith, a senior adviser on gender, maternal health, child health, and nutrition chose to resign on Monday after four years at USAID. In his resignation letter to the head of the agency, Samantha Power, he complained about the inconsistencies in USAID’s approach to different countries and humanitarian crises, and the general treatment of Palestinians.
“I cannot do my job in an environment in which specific people cannot be acknowledged as fully human, or where gender and human rights principles apply to some, but not to others, depending on their race,” he wrote.
In another resignation on Tuesday, a state department official from the bureau of population, refugees and migration, Stacy Gilbert, sent an email to colleagues explaining that she was leaving because of an official finding by the department that Israel was not deliberately obstructing the flow of food or other aid into Gaza.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 7:59 AM on May 30 [6 favorites]
Other than that, it was neither unjustified nor disproportionate to nearly a century of colonial violence.
The name calling of enemies does not excuse the murder. An eye for an eye makes the world blind. The Israelis are also capable of calling names and will cite the violence used against them to justify their response.
posted by interogative mood at 9:17 AM on May 30
The name calling of enemies does not excuse the murder. An eye for an eye makes the world blind. The Israelis are also capable of calling names and will cite the violence used against them to justify their response.
posted by interogative mood at 9:17 AM on May 30
Did you just elide "century of colonial violence" into "name calling"??? Metafilter is really going great.
posted by sagc at 9:22 AM on May 30 [9 favorites]
posted by sagc at 9:22 AM on May 30 [9 favorites]
Calling the Israelis colonizers is just name calling. Compress the lived experiences of Israelis and their hIstory into a straw man and thereby justify murdering them. Now you want to high road me, while praising murder and mayhem.
posted by interogative mood at 10:23 AM on May 30
posted by interogative mood at 10:23 AM on May 30
i24: Hundreds of descendants of Nazis hold solidarity march in Israel
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 10:25 AM on May 30
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 10:25 AM on May 30
I have certainly called Israelis "colonizers" at various times, but i definitely didn't do so in the above tweet. What i said was that there has been nearly a century of "colonial violence", which is to say that regardless of the lived experience of individual Israelis, the violence itself is of a colonialist nature. Like it or not, there is in fact an oppressive occupying State and an abjected Other in this situation, and you can't actually make history and sociology go away by accusing me of "name-calling".
posted by adrienneleigh at 10:30 AM on May 30 [10 favorites]
posted by adrienneleigh at 10:30 AM on May 30 [10 favorites]
it's denialism that has no place on metafilter, and has gone on with tacit mod approval for far too long.
posted by sagc at 10:34 AM on May 30 [7 favorites]
posted by sagc at 10:34 AM on May 30 [7 favorites]
it's denialism that has no place on metafilter, and has gone on with tacit mod approval
"Tacit", hell, criticising Israel, referring to it as a colonial settler state, and describing its actions vis-à-vis the Palestinians as "apartheid" or "ethnic cleansing" used to be grounds for being told you weren't allowed to post in any I/P related thread. There was an explicit moderation policy that any criticism of Israel and Zionism was to be presumed to be de facto antisemitic in nature. The only thing that's changed now is that the mods who were most invested in enforcing that (restless nomad in particular) are no longer mods, and Israel's gone full-on genocidal and it's just not possible to deny reality anymore.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 10:49 AM on May 30 [8 favorites]
"Tacit", hell, criticising Israel, referring to it as a colonial settler state, and describing its actions vis-à-vis the Palestinians as "apartheid" or "ethnic cleansing" used to be grounds for being told you weren't allowed to post in any I/P related thread. There was an explicit moderation policy that any criticism of Israel and Zionism was to be presumed to be de facto antisemitic in nature. The only thing that's changed now is that the mods who were most invested in enforcing that (restless nomad in particular) are no longer mods, and Israel's gone full-on genocidal and it's just not possible to deny reality anymore.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 10:49 AM on May 30 [8 favorites]
Remember that thread about how everyone opposing Israel's actions in Gaza was a rube taken in by Russian bot farms? Well: Meta Removes Hundreds of Fake Accounts Set Up by Israeli Firm
posted by The Manwich Horror at 10:50 AM on May 30 [11 favorites]
posted by The Manwich Horror at 10:50 AM on May 30 [11 favorites]
In the ICC expose thread I posted (with excerpts) about Haaretz saying they had a similar expose tee'd up in 2022 but were 'politely' encouraged not to do so. The writer phrased it as, if only we got to do it in peacetime when the world's attention wasn't on Israel, and really only half of that statement is even remotely true (2022 being the most lethal year on record, not to mention Operation Breaking Dawn, before 2023... And now).
I think that's pretty emblematic of even the parts of Israeli mainstream I personally can have a conversation with, the absolute oversight of Palestinians is endemic and denialism of what Israel is. Even in this thread - look, having poor whites doesn't negate white supremacy, having discriminated-against Indians doesn't negate hindutvas, having poor people joining the US military as a means to improve themselves doesn't negate the industrial military complex. It's not name calling unless you think to be described as a colonial is an insult - that's a reflection of changing mores but it's dumb to bridle at it considering the early Zionists were proud to call themselves colonizers. It's a descriptor, just like being white is a descriptor. Is there baggage? Yes. That's not a me-problem though.
---
ToI: Israel Land Authority tells UNRWA to evacuate Jerusalem premises for breaching lease -
Government body sends letter to UN agency for Palestinian refugees saying it must also pay over NIS 27 million for allegedly operating on state land without consent
Also Xi's keynote speech at the opening ceremony of the 10th ministerial conference of the China-Arab States Cooperation Forum
Friends,
The Middle East is a land bestowed with broad prospects for development, but the war is still raging on it. Since last October, the Palestinian-Israeli conflict has escalated drastically, throwing the people into tremendous sufferings. War should not continue indefinitely. Justice should not be absent forever. Commitment to the two-State solution should not be wavered at will. China firmly supports the establishment of an independent State of Palestine that enjoys full sovereignty based on the 1967 borders and with East Jerusalem as its capital. It supports Palestine's full membership in the U.N., and supports a more broad-based, authoritative and effective international peace conference. On top of the previous RMB100 million yuan of emergency humanitarian assistance, China will provide an additional RMB500 million yuan of assistance to help ease the humanitarian crisis in Gaza and support post-conflict reconstruction. We will donate U.S.$3 million to the U.N. Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees in the Near East in support of its emergency humanitarian assistance to Gaza.
At this rate, Biden has got to reach deep into his soul (ass?) and find an LBJ-ushering-in-the-Civil-Rights-Act moment (to use a Cold War read on how that came to pass). Bonus: he still doesn't have to think of Palestinians as people, to keep the analogy intact.
posted by cendawanita at 10:54 AM on May 30 [8 favorites]
I think that's pretty emblematic of even the parts of Israeli mainstream I personally can have a conversation with, the absolute oversight of Palestinians is endemic and denialism of what Israel is. Even in this thread - look, having poor whites doesn't negate white supremacy, having discriminated-against Indians doesn't negate hindutvas, having poor people joining the US military as a means to improve themselves doesn't negate the industrial military complex. It's not name calling unless you think to be described as a colonial is an insult - that's a reflection of changing mores but it's dumb to bridle at it considering the early Zionists were proud to call themselves colonizers. It's a descriptor, just like being white is a descriptor. Is there baggage? Yes. That's not a me-problem though.
---
ToI: Israel Land Authority tells UNRWA to evacuate Jerusalem premises for breaching lease -
Government body sends letter to UN agency for Palestinian refugees saying it must also pay over NIS 27 million for allegedly operating on state land without consent
Also Xi's keynote speech at the opening ceremony of the 10th ministerial conference of the China-Arab States Cooperation Forum
Friends,
The Middle East is a land bestowed with broad prospects for development, but the war is still raging on it. Since last October, the Palestinian-Israeli conflict has escalated drastically, throwing the people into tremendous sufferings. War should not continue indefinitely. Justice should not be absent forever. Commitment to the two-State solution should not be wavered at will. China firmly supports the establishment of an independent State of Palestine that enjoys full sovereignty based on the 1967 borders and with East Jerusalem as its capital. It supports Palestine's full membership in the U.N., and supports a more broad-based, authoritative and effective international peace conference. On top of the previous RMB100 million yuan of emergency humanitarian assistance, China will provide an additional RMB500 million yuan of assistance to help ease the humanitarian crisis in Gaza and support post-conflict reconstruction. We will donate U.S.$3 million to the U.N. Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees in the Near East in support of its emergency humanitarian assistance to Gaza.
At this rate, Biden has got to reach deep into his soul (ass?) and find an LBJ-ushering-in-the-Civil-Rights-Act moment (to use a Cold War read on how that came to pass). Bonus: he still doesn't have to think of Palestinians as people, to keep the analogy intact.
posted by cendawanita at 10:54 AM on May 30 [8 favorites]
Calling the Israelis colonizers is just name calling
Nope, it's a simple statement of fact. Words don't lose their meanings just because you don't happen to like them. What the fuck do you think is happening with all those settlements in the West Bank? With the deliberate expropriation of Palestinian land, the theft of Palestinian homes so some Zionist asshole from Brooklyn can live there, forced resettlement of Palestinians in refugee camps? Israel is a colonial settler state, Zionism is a colonial settler project. Crying "name calling!" is just the standard Zionist crybully tactic, and it doesn't work anymore.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 11:15 AM on May 30 [7 favorites]
Calling the Israelis colonizers is just name calling.
Covered above.
Compress the lived experiences of Israelis and their hIstory into a straw man and thereby justify murdering them.
Pointing to colonizers doing colonizing is not the same thing as justifying the murder of colonizers, and accusing others of constructing a straw man in the very same sentence that constructs a straw man is a dubious rhetorical tactic at best and demonstrates a near-total lack of self-awareness at worst.
Now you want to high road me, while praising murder and mayhem.
And there's the straw man instantly deployed. Nice work!
posted by flabdablet at 12:18 PM on May 30 [7 favorites]
Covered above.
Compress the lived experiences of Israelis and their hIstory into a straw man and thereby justify murdering them.
Pointing to colonizers doing colonizing is not the same thing as justifying the murder of colonizers, and accusing others of constructing a straw man in the very same sentence that constructs a straw man is a dubious rhetorical tactic at best and demonstrates a near-total lack of self-awareness at worst.
Now you want to high road me, while praising murder and mayhem.
And there's the straw man instantly deployed. Nice work!
posted by flabdablet at 12:18 PM on May 30 [7 favorites]
Alluding to the fact that international law gives an occupied people the right to resist the occupying power by force of arms does not amount to justifying the murder of the occupying power's civilians. Murdering civilians is a war crime.
posted by flabdablet at 12:32 PM on May 30 [8 favorites]
posted by flabdablet at 12:32 PM on May 30 [8 favorites]
I mean, if i had a time machine, i'd go back in time and give Kalashnikovs to the Native Americans, too! I have an extremely consistent position against colonialism even though i am a beneficiary of it!
posted by adrienneleigh at 12:36 PM on May 30 [5 favorites]
posted by adrienneleigh at 12:36 PM on May 30 [5 favorites]
You are the one openly endorsing murdering people as some kind of justified act, ignoring the consequences of that violence or any blow back
I can only refer you to my earlier remarks on that topic.
posted by flabdablet at 12:38 PM on May 30 [3 favorites]
I can only refer you to my earlier remarks on that topic.
posted by flabdablet at 12:38 PM on May 30 [3 favorites]
Hundreds of Palestinian Doctors Disappeared Into Israeli Detention
posted by adamvasco at 3:17 PM on May 30 [5 favorites]
posted by adamvasco at 3:17 PM on May 30 [5 favorites]
You don’t need a Time Machine to find Native Americans to give guns to. So brave of you to suggest you would do something possible only in your imagination while doing nothing in the real world.
posted by interogative mood at 4:12 PM on May 30 [1 favorite]
posted by interogative mood at 4:12 PM on May 30 [1 favorite]
You don't have any idea what i do in the real world. (And quite a few Native Americans, including many of the ones i personally know, already have guns, i assure you.)
posted by adrienneleigh at 4:17 PM on May 30 [5 favorites]
posted by adrienneleigh at 4:17 PM on May 30 [5 favorites]
You don’t need a Time Machine to find Native Americans to give guns to.
I am sure it wasn't your intent, but this comes off pretty badly. Native Americans aren't sitting around waiting for white people to arm them.
Genuine support for Native sovereignty is very common among US communists and anarchists. They are occupied people and also have the right to resist their colonizers.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 5:47 PM on May 30 [9 favorites]
I am sure it wasn't your intent, but this comes off pretty badly. Native Americans aren't sitting around waiting for white people to arm them.
Genuine support for Native sovereignty is very common among US communists and anarchists. They are occupied people and also have the right to resist their colonizers.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 5:47 PM on May 30 [9 favorites]
I was merely pointing out the absurdity of the previous posters comment. There are of course far more constructive things to do if you want to be an ally or advocate for sovereignty and native rights. Imagine all you could do with a time machine other than hand out AK’s — vaccines and antibiotics for example.
posted by interogative mood at 6:43 PM on May 30 [1 favorite]
posted by interogative mood at 6:43 PM on May 30 [1 favorite]
Hmmm reminds me of the Maoris and the Musket Wars, and just the general impact of having European guns. Good thing other indigenous people have history and international alliances on their side now.
Anyway, Akbar Shahid Ahmad scored an exclusive interview with Stacy Gilbert: Veteran State Department Official Says She Quit Over Biden Administration “Twisting The Facts” On Gaza - "In the end, I know the difference between right and wrong," Stacy Gilbert told HuffPost in her first interview since resigning.
Gilbert, who has over 20 years experience in U.S. policy toward global crises and conflicts, said she is convinced Israel’s U.S.-backed operation in the Palestinian enclave is violating international humanitarian law — particularly by restricting supplies for its civilian population. She added she sincerely believed President Joe Biden was serious about ensuring Israel complied with international and U.S. laws that shield civilians in war zones, but she had experienced deep disappointment that led her to conclude it was futile to continue trying to improve America’s policy in Gaza from inside the government.
(...) Like many of the administration staff who are exasperated with Biden’s resistance to changing course on near-total backing for Israel, Gilbert said her concerns are rooted in her expertise and the sense that it is being disregarded for political reasons.
“I understand that schools and hospitals can be legitimate military targets in the right circumstances, that war is messy,” she told HuffPost. “But there are rules. Sometimes a hospital can be a legitimate military target if combatants are using that hospital as a base from which to launch attacks … but I think because I try very hard to understand what international humanitarian law is about, it also gives me credibility in saying what is happening in Gaza is not according to international humanitarian law.”
(...) Despite the already dire conditions in Gaza that she and other officials were tracking, Gilbert saw the report as an opportunity.
“It’s possibly the first time in my life where I thought this kind of report is necessary,” she said, “and also because it was a new report, you’re setting it up from the ground up … so it was a chance to really influence that.”
She and hundreds of other Biden administration officials got to work on the report. But by the end of March, facing a deadline to say whether Israel had assured Washington it would respect the law, some personnel at the State Department began intensely pushing for the Biden to endorse the Israeli promises, like U.S. ambassador to Israel Jack Lew in a cable to the State Department first revealed by HuffPost on March 19.
To Gilbert, “that was the first indication that this may be more political and less about the facts on the ground as we saw them,” she said.
(...) As a May 8 deadline for the administration to send Congress its report approached, “the final document was edited at a higher level,” Gilbert said. She only became aware of its analysis around the same time that lawmakers, reporters and the general public did — by reading it on the national security-focused website Just Security.
“It’s a very unusual way to handle an official report,” she told HuffPost, expressing surprise the report was not released by the State Department.
After reading it, Gilbert said, she immediately determined she could no longer be part of the agency that produced it.
posted by cendawanita at 7:00 PM on May 30 [4 favorites]
Anyway, Akbar Shahid Ahmad scored an exclusive interview with Stacy Gilbert: Veteran State Department Official Says She Quit Over Biden Administration “Twisting The Facts” On Gaza - "In the end, I know the difference between right and wrong," Stacy Gilbert told HuffPost in her first interview since resigning.
Gilbert, who has over 20 years experience in U.S. policy toward global crises and conflicts, said she is convinced Israel’s U.S.-backed operation in the Palestinian enclave is violating international humanitarian law — particularly by restricting supplies for its civilian population. She added she sincerely believed President Joe Biden was serious about ensuring Israel complied with international and U.S. laws that shield civilians in war zones, but she had experienced deep disappointment that led her to conclude it was futile to continue trying to improve America’s policy in Gaza from inside the government.
(...) Like many of the administration staff who are exasperated with Biden’s resistance to changing course on near-total backing for Israel, Gilbert said her concerns are rooted in her expertise and the sense that it is being disregarded for political reasons.
“I understand that schools and hospitals can be legitimate military targets in the right circumstances, that war is messy,” she told HuffPost. “But there are rules. Sometimes a hospital can be a legitimate military target if combatants are using that hospital as a base from which to launch attacks … but I think because I try very hard to understand what international humanitarian law is about, it also gives me credibility in saying what is happening in Gaza is not according to international humanitarian law.”
(...) Despite the already dire conditions in Gaza that she and other officials were tracking, Gilbert saw the report as an opportunity.
“It’s possibly the first time in my life where I thought this kind of report is necessary,” she said, “and also because it was a new report, you’re setting it up from the ground up … so it was a chance to really influence that.”
She and hundreds of other Biden administration officials got to work on the report. But by the end of March, facing a deadline to say whether Israel had assured Washington it would respect the law, some personnel at the State Department began intensely pushing for the Biden to endorse the Israeli promises, like U.S. ambassador to Israel Jack Lew in a cable to the State Department first revealed by HuffPost on March 19.
To Gilbert, “that was the first indication that this may be more political and less about the facts on the ground as we saw them,” she said.
(...) As a May 8 deadline for the administration to send Congress its report approached, “the final document was edited at a higher level,” Gilbert said. She only became aware of its analysis around the same time that lawmakers, reporters and the general public did — by reading it on the national security-focused website Just Security.
“It’s a very unusual way to handle an official report,” she told HuffPost, expressing surprise the report was not released by the State Department.
After reading it, Gilbert said, she immediately determined she could no longer be part of the agency that produced it.
posted by cendawanita at 7:00 PM on May 30 [4 favorites]
I was merely pointing out the absurdity of the previous posters comment.
I'm pretty sure the point was that the American colonial project warranted violent resistance to the exact same extent as the Israeli colonial project, not anything to do with actual time travel.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 7:02 PM on May 30 [10 favorites]
I'm pretty sure the point was that the American colonial project warranted violent resistance to the exact same extent as the Israeli colonial project, not anything to do with actual time travel.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 7:02 PM on May 30 [10 favorites]
Precisely so, The Manwich Horror. The US and Canada need to be decolonized to the same extent Israel does; it's just that the genocide here is happening very slowly at this point (having happened very fast, in the past.)
posted by adrienneleigh at 7:14 PM on May 30 [3 favorites]
posted by adrienneleigh at 7:14 PM on May 30 [3 favorites]
Reminder - 26 May: (ToI) In leaked conversation, ‘desperate’ IDF negotiator says there’ll be no hostage deal with the current government
About 12 hours ago: Shaiel Ben-Ephraim (relaying a Channel 12 report) - After a difficult talk between National Security Council head Tzach Hanegbi and the hostage families, some family members stormed out in tears. It happened after the following exchange.
One of the hostage family members said that "During a war, you shouldn't be receiving money to build a pool." This referred to news that Bibi received state money to refurbish his pool in Ceaseara during the war.
Hanegbi replied, "he can even build 10 pools with his money. These are heinous things to say. You have no right to have this much hatred and pain."
The participant said: "I have every right. Unlike you I was in the protected space for 15 hours. I ran away from terrorists and stepped on dead bodies."
Hanegbi replied: "Then go ahead and curse me."
The hostage family member then ran out sobbing. When another went after her to comfort her, Hanegbi said, "are you also going to create drama?"
This came after a charged discussion over policy. Hanegbi admitted, "I don't believe that this government will manage to complete the entire deal. This government will not reach an agreement to finish the entire war for the return of the hostages. We must keep fighting so there will not be another October 7th in October 2027.
"The humanitarian phase, phase A, will be achieved within a few months, not many months and not years. If the hostages are not returned within a few weeks or months, we don't have a ready plan. We will keep fighting in Gaza and the north and then evaluate the situation."
A hostage family member said, "Then we are doomed." Hanegbi replied, "Correct."
It Netanyahu and his confidantes, among whom Hanegbi is perhaps the closest, are increasingly treating the hostage families as political enemies.
That's perfect - Bibi doesn't care for Israeli hostages in particular, Biden doesn't care for Palestinians in general, yet Israelis can have their live somewhat back to comparative civilization (while diaspora Zionists write about how they live in fear, or uh, whatever the hell this Tablet piece is* - quick question, can we retire 'jihad' for holy war and use whatever religiousy term Zionists are using?), while Palestinians are still dying in their lands or being systematically ostracized in the diaspora.
---
*More importantly, the very idea of the innocent civilian makes sense in an explicitly Christian context: “Render unto Caesar” plus the idea of a universal community of faith that transcends nationality means the conscience of the individual is paramount, and a person cannot so easily be classed as a targetable enemy “just because” of his membership in some nation waging war.
The contrast with the Jewish perspective here is sharp.
One particular Talmudic-era commentary comes to mind. Everyone knows that Pharaoh and his army were on horses as they chased Moses and the Israelites seaward. But it took the genius of Shimon ben Yochai, the sage, to ask where the horses came from. A plague of hail had killed off all the livestock in Egypt, other than that which belonged to upright individuals who held the Lord in awe. What this means, then, is that Pharaoh got his horses from the upright individuals. Ben Yochai concludes: [In times of war], it is correct to kill even the righteous among your enemy (Mekhilta 14:7).
This is a wince-inducingly Judaic—and very unchristian—position.
Ben Yochai witnessed the Roman annihilation of Judea. He understood that the way your enemy fights a war affects the definition of the righteous way to fight back. In other words, his recommendation was calibrated to the assumption that if the Jews are fighting a war, then their own future survival (and flourishing) is a nonnegotiable goal of the war. Thus, a Jew living by the Torah and confronted with an enemy armed with a human shield must ask: What does God want me to do now, given what I face? And how might I figure that out by studying the Torah?
As Abraham learns when arguing with God about Sodom, the ultimate decision about who lives and who perishes in calamity is the Creator’s choice, and while you can plead with God to spare the righteous, you must also have the moral humility to trust that He knows what He’s doing. As for you and what you can do: The Torah commands you to accept that the world’s Creator put you in the circumstances you are in, and that He only wants from you that you should do the most correct thing possible according to the Law, given the circumstances. And among the constraints and instructions given by the Torah is a specific one: “Choose life.” Accepting one’s own death because the other options are ugly and seem heartless is not on the menu.
In the current war in Gaza, a basic Judaic question therefore arises and must not be ignored: What is the bare minimum we must do in order to prevent our own mass murder?
The Jews do not venerate the image of a more-divine-than-usual human who achieved an abstract victory for all of humanity by dying horribly. And because we do not, we cannot accept the Western exhortation to be suicidally gentle with our enemies in order to receive a Christian burial on their “moral high ground.”
There are many things about the Jewish state, both as it currently is and as the Torah imagines it could be, that meet the loftiest ideals of the liberal, crypto-Christian West. Jews by and large love living in the liberal, secular West because our culture has great intuitive affection for freedom of speech and conscience, as well as the need for each unique individual to be given the freedom to discover his God-given purpose.
But as a reflection of the oneness of the God described therein, the Torah is obstinately balanced when it comes to simple principles. It insists on justice, but makes room for mercy. It cherishes human life, but acknowledges deadly violence can be correct. It sees all people as created in the image of God, but it commands the nation of Israel to play a unique priestly role, through example rather than through world-dominating force, in leading the world to greater knowledge and service of God.
Put into practice in 2024, this means that Israel must stop pretending it is a nation like any other, begging to be judged fairly by whatever standards the current hegemon has decreed we all agree upon. We need to look for standards from within our tradition to set a moral example for the whole world, while making it more practically possible to defend our homeland.
Instead of bragging about the extra danger our soldiers experience for the sake of sparing enemy noncombatants, we should reject the premise that we Jews bear any responsibility for protecting the human shields employed by our enemy.
Instead of threatening Jews with arrest for praying on the Temple Mount, we should take a hint from the “Al-Aqsa” moniker our attackers gave to their day of savage invasion and let Cohens up there on the hill to slaughter lambs for Passover.
And above all—given that land is nearly all that matters to this death-worshipping foe—instead of repeatedly withdrawing troops from areas we have just taken over so we can deny having unchristian territorial ambitions, we should conquer, annex, and resettle parts of Gaza so that Jews and friendly gentiles both can live there safely.
If our own, unsurpassably subtle ethical tradition guides us to these policies, then it is only our lingering ideological subjugation to the Western tradition that makes them seem scandalous. Like the Jew among nations, Israel constantly struggles with its half-successful attempt to blend in with the crowd and pretend to be a member like any other, and it is time to put an end to this paralyzing charade. We did not stick to our Law through 3,000 years of human civilization to continue national life as the perpetual defendant. It is our job to know that Law, to teach what we know—and, most of all, to live by it.
posted by cendawanita at 9:37 PM on May 30 [8 favorites]
About 12 hours ago: Shaiel Ben-Ephraim (relaying a Channel 12 report) - After a difficult talk between National Security Council head Tzach Hanegbi and the hostage families, some family members stormed out in tears. It happened after the following exchange.
One of the hostage family members said that "During a war, you shouldn't be receiving money to build a pool." This referred to news that Bibi received state money to refurbish his pool in Ceaseara during the war.
Hanegbi replied, "he can even build 10 pools with his money. These are heinous things to say. You have no right to have this much hatred and pain."
The participant said: "I have every right. Unlike you I was in the protected space for 15 hours. I ran away from terrorists and stepped on dead bodies."
Hanegbi replied: "Then go ahead and curse me."
The hostage family member then ran out sobbing. When another went after her to comfort her, Hanegbi said, "are you also going to create drama?"
This came after a charged discussion over policy. Hanegbi admitted, "I don't believe that this government will manage to complete the entire deal. This government will not reach an agreement to finish the entire war for the return of the hostages. We must keep fighting so there will not be another October 7th in October 2027.
"The humanitarian phase, phase A, will be achieved within a few months, not many months and not years. If the hostages are not returned within a few weeks or months, we don't have a ready plan. We will keep fighting in Gaza and the north and then evaluate the situation."
A hostage family member said, "Then we are doomed." Hanegbi replied, "Correct."
It Netanyahu and his confidantes, among whom Hanegbi is perhaps the closest, are increasingly treating the hostage families as political enemies.
That's perfect - Bibi doesn't care for Israeli hostages in particular, Biden doesn't care for Palestinians in general, yet Israelis can have their live somewhat back to comparative civilization (while diaspora Zionists write about how they live in fear, or uh, whatever the hell this Tablet piece is* - quick question, can we retire 'jihad' for holy war and use whatever religiousy term Zionists are using?), while Palestinians are still dying in their lands or being systematically ostracized in the diaspora.
---
*More importantly, the very idea of the innocent civilian makes sense in an explicitly Christian context: “Render unto Caesar” plus the idea of a universal community of faith that transcends nationality means the conscience of the individual is paramount, and a person cannot so easily be classed as a targetable enemy “just because” of his membership in some nation waging war.
The contrast with the Jewish perspective here is sharp.
One particular Talmudic-era commentary comes to mind. Everyone knows that Pharaoh and his army were on horses as they chased Moses and the Israelites seaward. But it took the genius of Shimon ben Yochai, the sage, to ask where the horses came from. A plague of hail had killed off all the livestock in Egypt, other than that which belonged to upright individuals who held the Lord in awe. What this means, then, is that Pharaoh got his horses from the upright individuals. Ben Yochai concludes: [In times of war], it is correct to kill even the righteous among your enemy (Mekhilta 14:7).
This is a wince-inducingly Judaic—and very unchristian—position.
Ben Yochai witnessed the Roman annihilation of Judea. He understood that the way your enemy fights a war affects the definition of the righteous way to fight back. In other words, his recommendation was calibrated to the assumption that if the Jews are fighting a war, then their own future survival (and flourishing) is a nonnegotiable goal of the war. Thus, a Jew living by the Torah and confronted with an enemy armed with a human shield must ask: What does God want me to do now, given what I face? And how might I figure that out by studying the Torah?
As Abraham learns when arguing with God about Sodom, the ultimate decision about who lives and who perishes in calamity is the Creator’s choice, and while you can plead with God to spare the righteous, you must also have the moral humility to trust that He knows what He’s doing. As for you and what you can do: The Torah commands you to accept that the world’s Creator put you in the circumstances you are in, and that He only wants from you that you should do the most correct thing possible according to the Law, given the circumstances. And among the constraints and instructions given by the Torah is a specific one: “Choose life.” Accepting one’s own death because the other options are ugly and seem heartless is not on the menu.
In the current war in Gaza, a basic Judaic question therefore arises and must not be ignored: What is the bare minimum we must do in order to prevent our own mass murder?
The Jews do not venerate the image of a more-divine-than-usual human who achieved an abstract victory for all of humanity by dying horribly. And because we do not, we cannot accept the Western exhortation to be suicidally gentle with our enemies in order to receive a Christian burial on their “moral high ground.”
There are many things about the Jewish state, both as it currently is and as the Torah imagines it could be, that meet the loftiest ideals of the liberal, crypto-Christian West. Jews by and large love living in the liberal, secular West because our culture has great intuitive affection for freedom of speech and conscience, as well as the need for each unique individual to be given the freedom to discover his God-given purpose.
But as a reflection of the oneness of the God described therein, the Torah is obstinately balanced when it comes to simple principles. It insists on justice, but makes room for mercy. It cherishes human life, but acknowledges deadly violence can be correct. It sees all people as created in the image of God, but it commands the nation of Israel to play a unique priestly role, through example rather than through world-dominating force, in leading the world to greater knowledge and service of God.
Put into practice in 2024, this means that Israel must stop pretending it is a nation like any other, begging to be judged fairly by whatever standards the current hegemon has decreed we all agree upon. We need to look for standards from within our tradition to set a moral example for the whole world, while making it more practically possible to defend our homeland.
Instead of bragging about the extra danger our soldiers experience for the sake of sparing enemy noncombatants, we should reject the premise that we Jews bear any responsibility for protecting the human shields employed by our enemy.
Instead of threatening Jews with arrest for praying on the Temple Mount, we should take a hint from the “Al-Aqsa” moniker our attackers gave to their day of savage invasion and let Cohens up there on the hill to slaughter lambs for Passover.
And above all—given that land is nearly all that matters to this death-worshipping foe—instead of repeatedly withdrawing troops from areas we have just taken over so we can deny having unchristian territorial ambitions, we should conquer, annex, and resettle parts of Gaza so that Jews and friendly gentiles both can live there safely.
If our own, unsurpassably subtle ethical tradition guides us to these policies, then it is only our lingering ideological subjugation to the Western tradition that makes them seem scandalous. Like the Jew among nations, Israel constantly struggles with its half-successful attempt to blend in with the crowd and pretend to be a member like any other, and it is time to put an end to this paralyzing charade. We did not stick to our Law through 3,000 years of human civilization to continue national life as the perpetual defendant. It is our job to know that Law, to teach what we know—and, most of all, to live by it.
posted by cendawanita at 9:37 PM on May 30 [8 favorites]
The Israelis who saw the writing on the wall when secular Zionism shifted into a biblical one had it right all along. In the meantime, parrots are born to repeat cliches about how this is a religious and civilizational war that is thousands of years old.
posted by cendawanita at 9:39 PM on May 30 [4 favorites]
posted by cendawanita at 9:39 PM on May 30 [4 favorites]
The United States decolonized Sept 3, 1783.
posted by interogative mood at 10:07 PM on May 30 [1 favorite]
posted by interogative mood at 10:07 PM on May 30 [1 favorite]
Well, yes, but then we recolonized the rest of the continent over the next two centuries.
posted by Justinian at 10:14 PM on May 30 [4 favorites]
posted by Justinian at 10:14 PM on May 30 [4 favorites]
Modi stans abusing "decolonisation" is more believable.
posted by cendawanita at 10:15 PM on May 30 [3 favorites]
posted by cendawanita at 10:15 PM on May 30 [3 favorites]
The United States decolonized Sept 3, 1783
No, it didn't; colonialism continued for the next 200+ years. My 6th great-uncle was the last settler killed by Native Americans in an unprovoked attack in the state of Kentucky, in 1794. The men who shot and scalped him would have been very surprised to hear about this "decolonization". So would the Shawnee and the Creeks and the Cherokee, who were dispossessed to make way for white settlers, and the Sioux, and the Cheyenne, etc.
Also, one of the grievances in the Declaration of Independence was Britain not allowing settlement beyond the 1763 treaty line; the Americans if anything wanted more colonization of the continent than Britain was prepared to allow.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 10:28 PM on May 30 [9 favorites]
No, it didn't; colonialism continued for the next 200+ years. My 6th great-uncle was the last settler killed by Native Americans in an unprovoked attack in the state of Kentucky, in 1794. The men who shot and scalped him would have been very surprised to hear about this "decolonization". So would the Shawnee and the Creeks and the Cherokee, who were dispossessed to make way for white settlers, and the Sioux, and the Cheyenne, etc.
Also, one of the grievances in the Declaration of Independence was Britain not allowing settlement beyond the 1763 treaty line; the Americans if anything wanted more colonization of the continent than Britain was prepared to allow.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 10:28 PM on May 30 [9 favorites]
Hanegbi admitted, "I don't believe that this government will manage to complete the entire deal. This government will not reach an agreement to finish the entire war for the return of the hostages. We must keep fighting so there will not be another October 7th in October 2027.
"The humanitarian phase, phase A, will be achieved within a few months, not many months and not years. If the hostages are not returned within a few weeks or months, we don't have a ready plan. We will keep fighting in Gaza and the north and then evaluate the situation."
A hostage family member said, "Then we are doomed." Hanegbi replied, "Correct."
We had to shoot ourselves in the face in order to save it.
posted by flabdablet at 11:07 PM on May 30 [2 favorites]
"The humanitarian phase, phase A, will be achieved within a few months, not many months and not years. If the hostages are not returned within a few weeks or months, we don't have a ready plan. We will keep fighting in Gaza and the north and then evaluate the situation."
A hostage family member said, "Then we are doomed." Hanegbi replied, "Correct."
We had to shoot ourselves in the face in order to save it.
posted by flabdablet at 11:07 PM on May 30 [2 favorites]
Does anyone have like an archive link or something for this Haaretz article.
Israel's Cause for Detention: ████ ██ █████
Four days after Bassem Tamimi's arrest, police ████, ████ ████: "███████ ███ ████ █████ ███ ████████, ██████, █████? "███████ ███ ██████: "████ ███ ██████." And that was that
I'm aware there's probably limited information inside, but I'd still like to see it. All the archive links I can find have the usual Haaretz problem.
posted by Audreynachrome at 3:35 AM on May 31 [1 favorite]
Israel's Cause for Detention: ████ ██ █████
Four days after Bassem Tamimi's arrest, police ████, ████ ████: "███████ ███ ████ █████ ███ ████████, ██████, █████? "███████ ███ ██████: "████ ███ ██████." And that was that
I'm aware there's probably limited information inside, but I'd still like to see it. All the archive links I can find have the usual Haaretz problem.
posted by Audreynachrome at 3:35 AM on May 31 [1 favorite]
It's the one adamvasco shared (via the Yanis Varoufakis tweet) - even the online version has those redacted. But it's basically an editorial stunt to show the control of the information flow so there's no "full" version.
posted by cendawanita at 3:44 AM on May 31 [4 favorites]
posted by cendawanita at 3:44 AM on May 31 [4 favorites]
Ahh, I see it now. Thanks! I didn't expect an uncensored version, I just wanted to see the whole thing anyway.
posted by Audreynachrome at 3:56 AM on May 31 [4 favorites]
posted by Audreynachrome at 3:56 AM on May 31 [4 favorites]
Try this one? Supposedly that tld has better success rate.
posted by cendawanita at 4:02 AM on May 31 [2 favorites]
posted by cendawanita at 4:02 AM on May 31 [2 favorites]
Hmm...
France bans Israeli companies from major weapons show over Rafah assault.
Israeli hostages' families told that Israel will not end the war for them: Hanegbi’s comments indicated that the government believes Hamas will refuse to release the rest of the hostages unless Israel agrees to end the war, and that the current coalition would refuse such a demand.
The terror group stiffened its demands on Thursday when it said it informed mediators that it would only return to the indirect negotiations for a hostage deal if Israel ceased all its operations in the Gaza Strip. Hamas said in a statement that it was ready to reach “a complete agreement” with Israel, including for the release of all the hostages in exchange for Palestinian security prisoners, but will only do so if Israel “stops its war and aggression against people in Gaza.”
National Security Advisor Tzachi Hanegbi arrives for a meeting with families of Israelis held hostage by Hamas terrorists in Gaza in Herzliya on December 5, 2023. (Avshalom Sassoni/Flash90)
In his meeting with the hostages’ relatives, Hanegbi assured them that Israel would soon secure implementation of the deal’s first phase. “The first stage of the deal, the humanitarian phase, we will be able to achieve within a few short months. It won’t take many months and not years,” the transcripts leaked to Channel 12 quoted him as having said.
However, he added, “I don’t believe that this government will succeed in completing the entire deal. This government will not make a decision to stop the war for the return of all the hostages.”
“We have to keep fighting so that there won’t be another October 7 in October 2027,” Hanegbi said.
“If the hostages don’t return within weeks or a few short months, we have no alternate plan,” he acknowledged. “We will continue to fight in Gaza and in the north, and only then will we reassess.”
In response, one of the participants reportedly said, “Well, then we’re lost.”
Hanegbi replied, “That’s correct.”
posted by toastyk at 7:17 AM on May 31 [3 favorites]
France bans Israeli companies from major weapons show over Rafah assault.
Israeli hostages' families told that Israel will not end the war for them: Hanegbi’s comments indicated that the government believes Hamas will refuse to release the rest of the hostages unless Israel agrees to end the war, and that the current coalition would refuse such a demand.
The terror group stiffened its demands on Thursday when it said it informed mediators that it would only return to the indirect negotiations for a hostage deal if Israel ceased all its operations in the Gaza Strip. Hamas said in a statement that it was ready to reach “a complete agreement” with Israel, including for the release of all the hostages in exchange for Palestinian security prisoners, but will only do so if Israel “stops its war and aggression against people in Gaza.”
National Security Advisor Tzachi Hanegbi arrives for a meeting with families of Israelis held hostage by Hamas terrorists in Gaza in Herzliya on December 5, 2023. (Avshalom Sassoni/Flash90)
In his meeting with the hostages’ relatives, Hanegbi assured them that Israel would soon secure implementation of the deal’s first phase. “The first stage of the deal, the humanitarian phase, we will be able to achieve within a few short months. It won’t take many months and not years,” the transcripts leaked to Channel 12 quoted him as having said.
However, he added, “I don’t believe that this government will succeed in completing the entire deal. This government will not make a decision to stop the war for the return of all the hostages.”
“We have to keep fighting so that there won’t be another October 7 in October 2027,” Hanegbi said.
“If the hostages don’t return within weeks or a few short months, we have no alternate plan,” he acknowledged. “We will continue to fight in Gaza and in the north, and only then will we reassess.”
In response, one of the participants reportedly said, “Well, then we’re lost.”
Hanegbi replied, “That’s correct.”
posted by toastyk at 7:17 AM on May 31 [3 favorites]
That Tabletmag piece is basically "we have a religious obligation to be genocidal maniacs". Not sure how utter amorality can be a "moral example" (I note that the author is an AI researcher and visiting professor of physics, not a rabbi or a professor of philosophy, so his lack of qualifications to actually speak to the subject he's addressing explain a lot).
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 7:27 AM on May 31 [6 favorites]
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 7:27 AM on May 31 [6 favorites]
I note that the author is an AI researcher and visiting professor of physics, not a rabbi or a professor of philosophy,
I'm one of those who would pipe up whenever mefites get a little too excited about bandying about "christian Taliban" sort of moniker, so with that said - noting how Israel hasbara loves the whole Hamas is ISIS nonsense, there's a perfect accord here with his qualifications and the typical ISIS/jihadists recruited from the West, who tends to come from STEM backgrounds. 😌🙃 Historically, the graduates from Al-Azhar and other actual juristic training tend to not fall into militant fundamentalism - ironic of course, it's those countries that housed those houses of learning that get bombed the most in the "global war against terror" - which, as we are seeing, is of a piece with the systemic denial of Palestinian rights.
That dark lining of gallows humour was in the back of my mind when I read that piece.
posted by cendawanita at 8:14 AM on May 31 [6 favorites]
I'm one of those who would pipe up whenever mefites get a little too excited about bandying about "christian Taliban" sort of moniker, so with that said - noting how Israel hasbara loves the whole Hamas is ISIS nonsense, there's a perfect accord here with his qualifications and the typical ISIS/jihadists recruited from the West, who tends to come from STEM backgrounds. 😌🙃 Historically, the graduates from Al-Azhar and other actual juristic training tend to not fall into militant fundamentalism - ironic of course, it's those countries that housed those houses of learning that get bombed the most in the "global war against terror" - which, as we are seeing, is of a piece with the systemic denial of Palestinian rights.
That dark lining of gallows humour was in the back of my mind when I read that piece.
posted by cendawanita at 8:14 AM on May 31 [6 favorites]
‘Solidarity over hatred’: the small band of Israelis stopping settlers obstructing aid trucks
“These are people who have lost their homes [and] their land, people facing starvation.
“But it’s not only about on this, it’s also a battle over the soul of our society, over the question of whether we can remain human in the face of fear, in the face of trauma; whether we can make sure that we choose life over death, or we choose solidarity over hatred and starvation.”
posted by lalochezia at 8:54 AM on May 31 [5 favorites]
“These are people who have lost their homes [and] their land, people facing starvation.
“But it’s not only about on this, it’s also a battle over the soul of our society, over the question of whether we can remain human in the face of fear, in the face of trauma; whether we can make sure that we choose life over death, or we choose solidarity over hatred and starvation.”
posted by lalochezia at 8:54 AM on May 31 [5 favorites]
Need to go sleep, but apparent Biden will be delivering remarks on "the middle east" soon.
posted by cendawanita at 9:46 AM on May 31 [1 favorite]
posted by cendawanita at 9:46 AM on May 31 [1 favorite]
Same shit, different day.
But hey, Bibi totes promised to be his BFF for life this time! Meanwhile, he's started to get real interested in these historical documents his team gave him. They say "Gilligan's Island" on them and he's just real broken up about those poor people.
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 11:21 AM on May 31 [1 favorite]
But hey, Bibi totes promised to be his BFF for life this time! Meanwhile, he's started to get real interested in these historical documents his team gave him. They say "Gilligan's Island" on them and he's just real broken up about those poor people.
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 11:21 AM on May 31 [1 favorite]
The United States decolonized Sept 3, 1783.
You say shit like this right after accusing me of playing fast and loose with the meanings of words?
posted by adrienneleigh at 12:18 PM on May 31 [7 favorites]
You say shit like this right after accusing me of playing fast and loose with the meanings of words?
posted by adrienneleigh at 12:18 PM on May 31 [7 favorites]
(I note that the author is an AI researcher and visiting professor of physics, not a rabbi or a professor of philosophy, so his lack of qualifications to actually speak to the subject he's addressing explain a lot).
Pseudonymous Cognomen: he's also an adult convert to Orthodox Judaism, and i note that adult converts are often the absolute worst people in any religion. (Also, he doesn't really seem to have read any of the Talmud at all; he's only using it for proof-texting, which is the exact wrong way to engage with the Talmud.)
posted by adrienneleigh at 12:21 PM on May 31
Pseudonymous Cognomen: he's also an adult convert to Orthodox Judaism, and i note that adult converts are often the absolute worst people in any religion. (Also, he doesn't really seem to have read any of the Talmud at all; he's only using it for proof-texting, which is the exact wrong way to engage with the Talmud.)
posted by adrienneleigh at 12:21 PM on May 31
adult converts are often the absolute worst people in any religion
Fundamentalists are the worst people in any religion, usually (whether Orthodox Jewish, Southern Baptist Christian, or Salafi Muslim).
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 12:31 PM on May 31 [3 favorites]
Fundamentalists are the worst people in any religion, usually (whether Orthodox Jewish, Southern Baptist Christian, or Salafi Muslim).
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 12:31 PM on May 31 [3 favorites]
Since these don't appear to be posted anywhere, here we go.
All Eyes on Rafah: The post that's been shared by more than 47m people
What is ‘All eyes on Rafah’? Decoding a viral social trend on Israel’s war
Looks like not only has this planet been getting fed up with our lack of progress as a species, but now AI is trying its own hand at empathy -- and, not to mention, outdoing a good proportion of the highest-ranking leaders in our human caste system while at it.
posted by human ecologist at 1:37 PM on May 31
All Eyes on Rafah: The post that's been shared by more than 47m people
What is ‘All eyes on Rafah’? Decoding a viral social trend on Israel’s war
Looks like not only has this planet been getting fed up with our lack of progress as a species, but now AI is trying its own hand at empathy -- and, not to mention, outdoing a good proportion of the highest-ranking leaders in our human caste system while at it.
posted by human ecologist at 1:37 PM on May 31
The United States decolonized Sept 3, 1783.
This statement is an intellectual and moral embarrassment to any and all of us spending time here.
posted by CPAnarchist at 3:01 PM on May 31 [13 favorites]
This statement is an intellectual and moral embarrassment to any and all of us spending time here.
posted by CPAnarchist at 3:01 PM on May 31 [13 favorites]
The United States decolonized Sept 3, 1783.
This statement is an intellectual and moral embarrassment to any and all of us spending time here.
I can't believe any of you didn't see past this and took the bait.
the statement is true. The treaty of Paris was the offical end of England's war to colonize America... didn't they move on to Canada next. I think they did that's when they started arming native Americans.
my direct ancestor was Nathaniel Pryor who was in the "corps of Discovery"commissioned by Thomas Jefferson to investigate passages to the West. There are varied opinions of the
success or failure of this mission but it was one of the most important road maps for the new United States to colonize the rest of the continent after we pushed out the british, the french, and the Spanish.
but I'm still puzzled why the comment was made in the first place.
posted by clavdivs at 5:42 PM on May 31 [1 favorite]
This statement is an intellectual and moral embarrassment to any and all of us spending time here.
I can't believe any of you didn't see past this and took the bait.
the statement is true. The treaty of Paris was the offical end of England's war to colonize America... didn't they move on to Canada next. I think they did that's when they started arming native Americans.
my direct ancestor was Nathaniel Pryor who was in the "corps of Discovery"commissioned by Thomas Jefferson to investigate passages to the West. There are varied opinions of the
success or failure of this mission but it was one of the most important road maps for the new United States to colonize the rest of the continent after we pushed out the british, the french, and the Spanish.
but I'm still puzzled why the comment was made in the first place.
posted by clavdivs at 5:42 PM on May 31 [1 favorite]
Gmorn (my time) - trying to catch up on the ceasefire proposal... Which seems to be a reformulation/rephrasing of basically the same terms that Hamas agreed to... At the start of this FPP. What price is a human life, as long as it saves Israeli face? Now I'm going to go see if they see it for the exit that it is, or if the national character really is about being stuck in quagmires and calling that winning.
Pew: Israeli Views of the Israel-Hamas War -
Jewish Israelis and Arab Israelis see the war very differently
posted by cendawanita at 6:49 PM on May 31 [1 favorite]
Pew: Israeli Views of the Israel-Hamas War -
Jewish Israelis and Arab Israelis see the war very differently
posted by cendawanita at 6:49 PM on May 31 [1 favorite]
the offical end of England's war to colonize America... didn't they move on to Canada next. I think they did that's when they started arming native Americans
Americans who fought for independence were still colonists, and Britain had been in Canada since the 1500's (St John's, Newfoundland, is the oldest permanent English settlement in North America, founded by royal charter in 1583), and defeated the French in Quebec in the Seven Years War in 1763; the line of settlement established by that treaty was one of the points of contention for American colonists who wanted to settle beyond it (in what became the Northwest Territory and Ohio Country, after the Revolution), and the taxation the colonists railed against was in part to support the cost of the war against the French as well as the cost of garrisoning the new territory.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 8:04 PM on May 31 [3 favorites]
Americans who fought for independence were still colonists, and Britain had been in Canada since the 1500's (St John's, Newfoundland, is the oldest permanent English settlement in North America, founded by royal charter in 1583), and defeated the French in Quebec in the Seven Years War in 1763; the line of settlement established by that treaty was one of the points of contention for American colonists who wanted to settle beyond it (in what became the Northwest Territory and Ohio Country, after the Revolution), and the taxation the colonists railed against was in part to support the cost of the war against the French as well as the cost of garrisoning the new territory.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 8:04 PM on May 31 [3 favorites]
Lol it's the same ceasefire terms, since Bibi's office said following that announcement, that the war will continue according to their objectives (which is?). Hamas otoh said they view the terms positively.
The only silver lining is the timing being at the start of Sabbath so the religious right-wing ministers weren't available to respond/make things worse.
In the meantime, in the very dictionary definition of 'gaslighting', key western allies keep stating and demanding on their public channels that now is the time for Hamas to accept the terms. But didn't I just write they're looking at them positively? I did. 🙃
posted by cendawanita at 9:33 PM on May 31 [5 favorites]
The only silver lining is the timing being at the start of Sabbath so the religious right-wing ministers weren't available to respond/make things worse.
In the meantime, in the very dictionary definition of 'gaslighting', key western allies keep stating and demanding on their public channels that now is the time for Hamas to accept the terms. But didn't I just write they're looking at them positively? I did. 🙃
posted by cendawanita at 9:33 PM on May 31 [5 favorites]
Netanyahu doesn't like that Biden is trying to force his hand with the public announcement. I expect that the pressure to follow through with a ceasefire if Hamas agrees to the terms would be immense, though that doesn't mean Netanyahu will bend since he knows what's gonna happen to him in an election,
posted by Justinian at 10:08 PM on May 31
posted by Justinian at 10:08 PM on May 31
Mod note: One removed. Please don't repeat horrific racist tropes, even in aid of criticizing racist tropes.
posted by taz (staff) at 12:08 AM on June 1
posted by taz (staff) at 12:08 AM on June 1
Biden unveils Israeli proposal to end Gaza war
No Gaza ceasefire until Israel war aims achieved, Netanyahu says
Eventually a price tag has to put on the value of black and brown human suffering over these past 500 years, especially with respect to the role of unfettered access to child r*pe and its priceless value in lubricating the gears of Western Civilization. Of course, that won't happen until the blacks and browns count as human, even up here in the Great White North. Until then, apparently we will continue raising our kids to pursue graduate degrees so we can all become the most educated generation of care aides the North American elderly have ever seen. Right on, why become a doctor when we can all migrate here and live the f**king dream ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
posted by human ecologist at 5:45 PM on June 1 [3 favorites]
No Gaza ceasefire until Israel war aims achieved, Netanyahu says
Eventually a price tag has to put on the value of black and brown human suffering over these past 500 years, especially with respect to the role of unfettered access to child r*pe and its priceless value in lubricating the gears of Western Civilization. Of course, that won't happen until the blacks and browns count as human, even up here in the Great White North. Until then, apparently we will continue raising our kids to pursue graduate degrees so we can all become the most educated generation of care aides the North American elderly have ever seen. Right on, why become a doctor when we can all migrate here and live the f**king dream ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
posted by human ecologist at 5:45 PM on June 1 [3 favorites]
The problem with the Biden proposal is that absent a settlement freeze and a ceasefire in the West Bank the ceasefire will fall apart.
posted by interogative mood at 8:31 AM on June 2 [1 favorite]
posted by interogative mood at 8:31 AM on June 2 [1 favorite]
Hard to believe Netanyahu will ever agree to a settlement freeze. Isn't the play to end the current fighting, get Netanyahu and the far right out of leadership, and then negotiate with someone more reasonable?
If Netanyahu and the far right are never out of leadership then no ceasefire will hold because they don't want it to hold.
posted by Justinian at 2:31 PM on June 2 [1 favorite]
If Netanyahu and the far right are never out of leadership then no ceasefire will hold because they don't want it to hold.
posted by Justinian at 2:31 PM on June 2 [1 favorite]
The problem is not just Netanyahu or the far right. You may as well hope Barack Obama is elected Israeli PM. If you want hope, look to the groundswell of popular support for Palestine. Not just the students, but unions, other minorities, international support from countries that are finally imposing sanctions.
Former chief prosecutor of the ICC, Luis Moreno Ocampo in an interview with Marc Lamont Hill:
Look, you cannot defeat terrorists using war. General McChrystal— not a human rights guy, General McChrystal, who conducted operations in Afghanistan and Iraq. He developed what he called insurgency maths. You have ten terrorists. You kill two. How many remain? Twenty. Ten minus two equals twenty. Why? Because the family and the friends became terrorists. In fact, Hamas leaders, all of them, are victims. Are families who were force displaced, had kids killed. All of them are also victims. They committed the crimes, but are victims at the same time. It's time to stop the revenge cycle. That's the opportunity. The ICC is offering the opportunity to transform the war into a justice operation.
posted by i like crows very much at 11:32 PM on June 2 [11 favorites]
Former chief prosecutor of the ICC, Luis Moreno Ocampo in an interview with Marc Lamont Hill:
Look, you cannot defeat terrorists using war. General McChrystal— not a human rights guy, General McChrystal, who conducted operations in Afghanistan and Iraq. He developed what he called insurgency maths. You have ten terrorists. You kill two. How many remain? Twenty. Ten minus two equals twenty. Why? Because the family and the friends became terrorists. In fact, Hamas leaders, all of them, are victims. Are families who were force displaced, had kids killed. All of them are also victims. They committed the crimes, but are victims at the same time. It's time to stop the revenge cycle. That's the opportunity. The ICC is offering the opportunity to transform the war into a justice operation.
posted by i like crows very much at 11:32 PM on June 2 [11 favorites]
As usual Netanyahu already undermining and backtracking on the proposed ceasefire deal claiming that Biden has not accurately presented it. It comes down to Netanyahu's reliance on far right parties to hold on to power.
I think the last time the US was able to force Israel to accept a ceasefire was during the Suez Crisis in 1956 when Eisenhower was President an the Israeli's didn't have the political clout in DC they have now. I remain pessimistic.
posted by interogative mood at 2:05 PM on June 3
I think the last time the US was able to force Israel to accept a ceasefire was during the Suez Crisis in 1956 when Eisenhower was President an the Israeli's didn't have the political clout in DC they have now. I remain pessimistic.
posted by interogative mood at 2:05 PM on June 3
Saw someone point out on Twitter the other day that even though it's been a few years now, Netanyahu is still kind of living under the Sword of Damocles due to the corruption indictment, and he only remains a free man due to his government position. Which is to say, the end of the war doesn't represent the end of his time leading the government, it represents the end of his life.
posted by DoctorFedora at 5:11 PM on June 3 [1 favorite]
posted by DoctorFedora at 5:11 PM on June 3 [1 favorite]
“Palestinian Liberation and Police Abolition Go Hand In Hand,” Jonathan Ben-Menachem and Trip Eggert , The Nation, 03 June 2024
posted by ob1quixote at 7:02 PM on June 3 [4 favorites]
posted by ob1quixote at 7:02 PM on June 3 [4 favorites]
Norman Finkelstein on political clout in an interview with Kyle Kulinski (Secular Talk, YouTube/Piped/Invidious, 12m59s)
Linked because Finkelstein makes a useful distinction between Zionists and Jewish supremacists, and also for this useful YouTube comment presenting a short history of Likud.
posted by flabdablet at 9:26 AM on June 4 [2 favorites]
Linked because Finkelstein makes a useful distinction between Zionists and Jewish supremacists, and also for this useful YouTube comment presenting a short history of Likud.
posted by flabdablet at 9:26 AM on June 4 [2 favorites]
Trump Is Desperate for Miriam Adelson's Cash. Her Condition: West Bank Annexation.
posted by Justinian at 11:29 AM on June 4
posted by Justinian at 11:29 AM on June 4
I assume she has no desire to see the Palestinian residents included in this annexation; but prove me wrong.
posted by interogative mood at 12:03 PM on June 4 [1 favorite]
posted by interogative mood at 12:03 PM on June 4 [1 favorite]
In other news Israel is claiming that at least 43 of the remaining 124 captives are dead. Haaretz maintains a webpage about the hostages with what is thought to be known of their fate. The death of four captives was announced yesterday (June 3). The four men were:
Just 4 more names to add to the list of tens of thousands of dead in this war. Almost all of them Palestinians and the much smaller number of Israelis -- all of them had stories like these. Just people trying to get by and live their lives.
And for what? Gaza reduced to rubble, suffering on an unimaginable level, all so Hamas and Israel can have basically the same fragile ceasefire that existed on October 6th. Perhaps the liberation you say justified this violence is obscured by the rubble, the bodies and the dust. Men like Chaim Peri who spent decades working for peace are among the dead, meanwhile the perpetrators Netanyahu and Sinwar will smirk at ICC. I see no liberation, only more suffering.
- Chaim Peri, aged 80, a resident of Nir Oz he was a peace activist and artist. Chaim Peri's work was featured in a exhibition in 2007 in Jerusalem entitled "40 Years of Occupation, 1967-2007 – Israeli and Palestinian Artists against the Occupation and for a Just Peace"
- Yoram Metzger, aged 80, a resident of Nir Oz and had setup the Kibbutz' winery and vinyard. He was taken with his wife Tamar, who was freed last year.
- Amiram Cooper, aged 84, born in Haifa in 1938 and a resident of Nir Oz -- was a retired economist, poet, playwright and composer (link to a page containing some of his works). His wife Nirit Cooper was also taken but released last year.
- Nadav Popplewell, aged 51 captured, a British-Israeli citizen a resident of Nirim. He was recently shown in a Hamas video (link to a story about the video, not the video). His mother Channah Peri was also taken but was released last year.
Just 4 more names to add to the list of tens of thousands of dead in this war. Almost all of them Palestinians and the much smaller number of Israelis -- all of them had stories like these. Just people trying to get by and live their lives.
And for what? Gaza reduced to rubble, suffering on an unimaginable level, all so Hamas and Israel can have basically the same fragile ceasefire that existed on October 6th. Perhaps the liberation you say justified this violence is obscured by the rubble, the bodies and the dust. Men like Chaim Peri who spent decades working for peace are among the dead, meanwhile the perpetrators Netanyahu and Sinwar will smirk at ICC. I see no liberation, only more suffering.
Song of Loveposted by interogative mood at 2:18 PM on June 4
A. Where is the song
Song of Love
That buds in hollows of the heart
Why does it wander streets alone
and creep into pages as sadness.
Through the stormy streets
and the gardens bloom in wind
It walks with sorrow
seeking a bosom to rest
B. An island of song
Song of Love
Hidden in the grey of Autumn
Why does the green pale on boughs
shedding falling leaves.
Through the stormy streets
and the trees stand bowed.
It walks with sorrow
seeking Spring to blossom" -- Amiran Cooper translated by David Arkin
describing an occupation where it was the occupied who is killed and harmed regularly (reminder of the various links shared) as a fragile ceasefire remains dishonest, especially as that is seen as status quo while the tragedy is the particular deaths of those from the occupying population. It is tragic, but it's not a ceasefire. Constant and daily executions of violence and cooptation as a means to ensure that there is no meaningful pushback, is no ceasefire; while the so-called peace factions make no headway to ensure the work of achieving self-determination for the occupied is being supported and incorporated in their national agenda, is no ceasefire; even as their international allies continue the work of erasing the institutional recognition of those people, even as their culture is appropriated, is no ceasefire.
Raphael Mimoun: Why I don't talk about the Israeli hostages
After a century of erasing Palestinian culture and history, insisting on talking about the hostages diverts our eyes and full attention yet again from the suffering of Palestinians at the hands of Israeli militarism. It also continues to create a false equivalency between the extent of violence faced by Israelis and Palestinians—the idea that this is a 'conflict' between two equal sides. This isn't a 'conflict': it is a multi-billion dollar military apparatus backed by the weapons and the political might of the world's superpower against a people that has been deprived for generations of all forms of sovereignty and self-determination.
245 Palestinian children have died every week since October 7th. As I'm writing these words, Israeli bombs are falling on Rafah, Jabalia, Beit Hanoon, and Gaza city. We do not ignore Israeli hostages because their lives don't matter. They do. We center the call for a ceasefire because Gaza is where the relentless, unbearable violence is happening. Because it is in Gaza that, every day, we witness more tragedy, more death and destruction. This is what the global movement of solidarity for Gaza is screaming about. This is what we all should be screaming about.
posted by cendawanita at 7:28 PM on June 4 [12 favorites]
Raphael Mimoun: Why I don't talk about the Israeli hostages
After a century of erasing Palestinian culture and history, insisting on talking about the hostages diverts our eyes and full attention yet again from the suffering of Palestinians at the hands of Israeli militarism. It also continues to create a false equivalency between the extent of violence faced by Israelis and Palestinians—the idea that this is a 'conflict' between two equal sides. This isn't a 'conflict': it is a multi-billion dollar military apparatus backed by the weapons and the political might of the world's superpower against a people that has been deprived for generations of all forms of sovereignty and self-determination.
245 Palestinian children have died every week since October 7th. As I'm writing these words, Israeli bombs are falling on Rafah, Jabalia, Beit Hanoon, and Gaza city. We do not ignore Israeli hostages because their lives don't matter. They do. We center the call for a ceasefire because Gaza is where the relentless, unbearable violence is happening. Because it is in Gaza that, every day, we witness more tragedy, more death and destruction. This is what the global movement of solidarity for Gaza is screaming about. This is what we all should be screaming about.
posted by cendawanita at 7:28 PM on June 4 [12 favorites]
It is dishonest to call the ceasefire a ceasefire now? Or is it dishonest to describe it as fragile because every day there were annd will be acts of violence that and violence that threatened the catastrophe we’ve seen unfold.
As for not caring about the hostages and their stories. The story of a man like Chaim Perri is always worth repeating, He braved the checkpoints multiple times a month. He took harassment from Hamas as a Jew and his fellow Israelis for helping Palestinians in Gaza. And now he’s dead at the hands of the system he tried to end.
Meanwhile Raphael Mimoun went to Los Angeles and made a website, a blog and a couple of apps. All of which are supposed to somehow help human rights with and full of aspirational statements and unproven claims of how they will magically protect human rights workers with encryption and secure storage.
posted by interogative mood at 8:13 PM on June 4
As for not caring about the hostages and their stories. The story of a man like Chaim Perri is always worth repeating, He braved the checkpoints multiple times a month. He took harassment from Hamas as a Jew and his fellow Israelis for helping Palestinians in Gaza. And now he’s dead at the hands of the system he tried to end.
Meanwhile Raphael Mimoun went to Los Angeles and made a website, a blog and a couple of apps. All of which are supposed to somehow help human rights with and full of aspirational statements and unproven claims of how they will magically protect human rights workers with encryption and secure storage.
posted by interogative mood at 8:13 PM on June 4
Ah, now I see why it's fragile.
posted by cendawanita at 8:30 PM on June 4 [3 favorites]
posted by cendawanita at 8:30 PM on June 4 [3 favorites]
Just an actor: (The Hollywood Reporter) Wallace Shawn on Gaza: “The Anger of the Palestinians Cannot Be Ended by Killing Their Children”
Over the decades, I’ve done quite a bit of work as a translator from various languages, and sometimes when I get home from work, I just can’t stop. Yesterday, for example, I saw an ad in The Hollywood Reporter. It was in English, but its meaning was not immediately obvious at all, so I felt an overwhelming impulse to translate it.
The ad featured a statement that former Israeli Prime Minister Golda Meir had made in the 1950s about “the Arabs,” but the ad (which leaves out the words “the Arabs”) suggests that “her haunting words” are “as current as today’s headlines. She could have been talking about Hamas.” The quotation, as it appears in the ad, is as follows: “We can forgive [them] for killing our children. We cannot forgive them from forcing us to kill their children. We will only have peace with [them] when they love their children more than they hate us.”
My quick personal translation of this would be: “When we kill the children of Arabs, the Arabs made us do it. They hate us so much, they are so angry, that they do things that enrage us and make us kill children. If they were decent people who loved their children, they would set aside their hatred and stop provoking us, and we would then stop killing the children.”
Sometimes a translator feels compelled to argue with the text he’s just translated, particularly when, as in the case of this ad, one is confronted by a photograph of the author that makes one vividly feel her presence. In this case, I can only say that despite her wise and thoughtful and grandmotherly face, Golda Meir can be interpreted as saying here that she plans to kill the children of Arabs up until the moment when, in her sole judgment, the Arabs stop feeling “hate” and become sufficiently unprovoking and pacified.
Applying her remarks to the present day, as the signers of the ad suggest we should do, the ad seems fundamentally to be saying that it ought to be up to the current prime minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, to decide when the current killing ought to stop. I have to say, I feel that this ad, directed to members of the show business community, perhaps especially to Jewish members of the show business community such as myself, takes as its premise a false view both of history and of the present situation.
Just an Israeli-Australian: Grief & Guilt by Association (and thank goodness for cognitive dissonance)
The evidence continued to mount about Israel’s settler-colonialism, and the facts were staring at me in the face, so I knew logically that speaking out was right. But emotionally, there was still turmoil. That sense of loyalty that you are born into in Israel is unconscious. It is the air you breathe, and it is inseparable from your very identity. In fact, Zionism and Israelism are your identity. You are an Israeli Jew first, and a human being second. So I had to work through it, or as I call it in my therapy language, ‘integrate it’. Thankfully, my education in family therapy came to my aid. It gave me both the intellectual, and the emotional tools to support myself through this journey.
The journey is not just about speaking out. If a deep sense of loyalty to your group lurks under the surface, it can water down the effectiveness of your activist voice. Ultimately, it weakens the message, which is precisely what group loyalty is there to do. Loyalty to a group like Israel is meant to prevent any criticism of the group, no matter how badly it behaves. The perceived survival of the group is the priority, no matter what the group does. ‘Liberal Zionists’, regularly toe an imaginary fine line between presenting themselves as moral, caring, and just, while at the same time enabling Israel, the perpetrator. They routinely self-censor to make sure they do not ‘go too far’, in a way that, they fear, could harm Israel.
When it was my time to wrestle with this, I knew I had to go ‘all the way’. You cannot be a ‘nice’, ‘caring’, or ‘enlightened’ settler-colonialist. Settler-colonialism is by its very nature brutal and genocidal. There is no settler-colonialism without a ‘policy of elimination’, as the late Patrick Wolfe called it. Imagine a kidnapper who tightly binds the hands of the victim they intend to rape and kill. The binds are so tight that they cut into the skin, and stop the circulation. It is painful. Now imagine another kidnapper with the same agenda, who is just a bit ‘nicer’, and ‘considerate’. This kidnapper ties their victim’s hands less tightly, and maybe even offers them a glass of water. But a psychopath is a psychopath. At the end of the day their goal is the same.
‘Liberal Zionists’ may express sympathy for the Palestinians. They might express concern about the burning of homes, and olive trees in the Colonised/Occupied West Bank, or about Israel holding hundreds of Palestinian children in adult prisons in Israel where they are routinely sexually abused and tortured. But they avoid addressing the abusive, and ultimately genocidal nature of Zionist settler-colonialism in Palestine that is behind everything that Israel does. ‘Liberal Zionists’ may express some misgivings about some of the things Israel has been doing to the Palestinians. But their motivation is to assuage their own pangs of conscience, caused by their cognitive dissonance. There is a more cynical view that suggests that some ‘Liberal Zionist’ Jews want to be seen to be speaking out, because they are afraid of antisemitism. They worry that if they do not criticise Israel at all, they would be subjected to hatred. Either way, what they do is not motivated by real concern or empathy for their fellow human beings. Whatever they do, or do not do, is still all about them.
(...) To be clear, I am saying that people have always sacrificed and betrayed victims, simply because they could not face their own uncomfortable feelings. The intensely uncomfortable feelings that cognitive dissonance makes us feel are our saving grace. They open a door for us, and invite us to our own redemption. Some people walk through the door, and others repeatedly slam it shut.
(...) When I began to understand that Israel was a settler-colonial, cult-like country; when I began to see more and more clearly how I was lied to and manipulated in my childhood and through my life in Israel, I began to grieve for myself. I now grieve for the Palestinians people, my fellow human beings. They are the victims of an unfolding genocide that has its origins in the late 1880s, when the Zionist movement began. The Palestinian people did nothing wrong. Their ‘big crime’, for which they are being eliminated is that they happened to live on the land that the Zionists coveted for an exclusively Jewish ghetto state.
I still feel guilt about the fact that I am from Israel. I know people should not be judged by where they are born, or what language they speak, but by what they do, and what they stand for. My partner always says that it does not matter what you used to believe. What matters is what you do when you find out the truth. I agree completely. But a part of me still wishes I was never born in Israel, and was never a member of the perpetrator group.
(I am happy to feel this, because I am OK with all of my feelings. I am not the victim in this story. The Palestinian people are).
Just some Hollywood folks who didn't forget: As the tides turn, a pro-Israel Hollywood open letter goes offline. But we saved it for you.
Just some British civil servants: (Declassified UK) Gaza: Revolt in the Foreign Office - Exclusive: Hundreds of civil servants have written to David Cameron urging the government to publish its legal advice on whether its support to Israel breaches international law, writes a former aid official.
Amid Britain’s ongoing complicity and support for Israel’s ‘plausible genocide’ in Gaza, an increasing number of staff in the Foreign Office, I’m told up to 300, have formally raised concerns with ministers, seeking a change of course.
They are questioning ministers’ actions and policy in relation to Gaza and asking to see the legal advice they received that this is based on – advice that they have so far refused to publish, despite calls to do so from some in parliament.
But foreign secretary David Cameron has not responded to these concerns directly. Instead, he sent the Foreign Office’s political director, Christian Turner, to have a meeting with a small contingent of those raising concerns about UK policy and breaches of international humanitarian law in Gaza.
The meeting, which took place in person at the department’s King Charles Street head office, was not minuted and participants were not allowed to take notes.
This may appear benign, but not having notes of a meeting in the civil service is highly unusual, never mind a senior civil servant telling officials they aren’t allowed to take notes. Notes are taken as a record of decision making and discussions, so it raises concerns that this was actively stopped from happening in this case.
This meeting was part of the effort to silence legitimate concerns from a range of officials from across the department, including any potential individual accountability for civil servants working on issues related to Israel and Palestine.
Some staff are even rejecting requests to work on the crisis due to concerns of complicity in war crimes.
Just a law journal: (The Intercept) Columbia Law Review Refused to Take Down Article on Palestine, So Its Board of Directors Nuked the Whole Website - The students who edit the journal sought out the article by a Palestinian scholar who was censored by Harvard Law Review last year.
The CLR board of directors told The Intercept in a statement that there were concerns about “deviation from the Review’s usual processes” and said it had taken the website down to give all CLR members the chance to read the article and that the decision was not a final decision on publication.
“We spoke to certain members of the student leadership to ask that they delay publication for a few days so that, at a minimum, the manuscript could be shared with all student editors, to provide them with a chance to read it and respond,” the board said. “Nevertheless, we learned this morning that the manuscript had been made public. In order to provide time for the Law Review to determine how to proceed, we have temporarily suspended its website.”
The apparent intervention by the board of directors surprised some Columba Law School faculty.
“I don’t suspect that they would have asserted this kind of control had the piece been about Tibet, Kashmir, Puerto Rico, or other contested political sites,” Katherine Franke, a professor, told The Intercept.
“When Columbia Law Professor Herbert Weschler published his important article questioning the underlying justification for Brown v. Board of Education in 1959 it was regarded by many as blasphemous, but is now regarded as canonical. This is what legal scholarship should do at its best, challenge us to think hard about hard things, even when it is uncomfortable doing so.”
posted by cendawanita at 9:44 PM on June 4 [8 favorites]
Over the decades, I’ve done quite a bit of work as a translator from various languages, and sometimes when I get home from work, I just can’t stop. Yesterday, for example, I saw an ad in The Hollywood Reporter. It was in English, but its meaning was not immediately obvious at all, so I felt an overwhelming impulse to translate it.
The ad featured a statement that former Israeli Prime Minister Golda Meir had made in the 1950s about “the Arabs,” but the ad (which leaves out the words “the Arabs”) suggests that “her haunting words” are “as current as today’s headlines. She could have been talking about Hamas.” The quotation, as it appears in the ad, is as follows: “We can forgive [them] for killing our children. We cannot forgive them from forcing us to kill their children. We will only have peace with [them] when they love their children more than they hate us.”
My quick personal translation of this would be: “When we kill the children of Arabs, the Arabs made us do it. They hate us so much, they are so angry, that they do things that enrage us and make us kill children. If they were decent people who loved their children, they would set aside their hatred and stop provoking us, and we would then stop killing the children.”
Sometimes a translator feels compelled to argue with the text he’s just translated, particularly when, as in the case of this ad, one is confronted by a photograph of the author that makes one vividly feel her presence. In this case, I can only say that despite her wise and thoughtful and grandmotherly face, Golda Meir can be interpreted as saying here that she plans to kill the children of Arabs up until the moment when, in her sole judgment, the Arabs stop feeling “hate” and become sufficiently unprovoking and pacified.
Applying her remarks to the present day, as the signers of the ad suggest we should do, the ad seems fundamentally to be saying that it ought to be up to the current prime minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, to decide when the current killing ought to stop. I have to say, I feel that this ad, directed to members of the show business community, perhaps especially to Jewish members of the show business community such as myself, takes as its premise a false view both of history and of the present situation.
Just an Israeli-Australian: Grief & Guilt by Association (and thank goodness for cognitive dissonance)
The evidence continued to mount about Israel’s settler-colonialism, and the facts were staring at me in the face, so I knew logically that speaking out was right. But emotionally, there was still turmoil. That sense of loyalty that you are born into in Israel is unconscious. It is the air you breathe, and it is inseparable from your very identity. In fact, Zionism and Israelism are your identity. You are an Israeli Jew first, and a human being second. So I had to work through it, or as I call it in my therapy language, ‘integrate it’. Thankfully, my education in family therapy came to my aid. It gave me both the intellectual, and the emotional tools to support myself through this journey.
The journey is not just about speaking out. If a deep sense of loyalty to your group lurks under the surface, it can water down the effectiveness of your activist voice. Ultimately, it weakens the message, which is precisely what group loyalty is there to do. Loyalty to a group like Israel is meant to prevent any criticism of the group, no matter how badly it behaves. The perceived survival of the group is the priority, no matter what the group does. ‘Liberal Zionists’, regularly toe an imaginary fine line between presenting themselves as moral, caring, and just, while at the same time enabling Israel, the perpetrator. They routinely self-censor to make sure they do not ‘go too far’, in a way that, they fear, could harm Israel.
When it was my time to wrestle with this, I knew I had to go ‘all the way’. You cannot be a ‘nice’, ‘caring’, or ‘enlightened’ settler-colonialist. Settler-colonialism is by its very nature brutal and genocidal. There is no settler-colonialism without a ‘policy of elimination’, as the late Patrick Wolfe called it. Imagine a kidnapper who tightly binds the hands of the victim they intend to rape and kill. The binds are so tight that they cut into the skin, and stop the circulation. It is painful. Now imagine another kidnapper with the same agenda, who is just a bit ‘nicer’, and ‘considerate’. This kidnapper ties their victim’s hands less tightly, and maybe even offers them a glass of water. But a psychopath is a psychopath. At the end of the day their goal is the same.
‘Liberal Zionists’ may express sympathy for the Palestinians. They might express concern about the burning of homes, and olive trees in the Colonised/Occupied West Bank, or about Israel holding hundreds of Palestinian children in adult prisons in Israel where they are routinely sexually abused and tortured. But they avoid addressing the abusive, and ultimately genocidal nature of Zionist settler-colonialism in Palestine that is behind everything that Israel does. ‘Liberal Zionists’ may express some misgivings about some of the things Israel has been doing to the Palestinians. But their motivation is to assuage their own pangs of conscience, caused by their cognitive dissonance. There is a more cynical view that suggests that some ‘Liberal Zionist’ Jews want to be seen to be speaking out, because they are afraid of antisemitism. They worry that if they do not criticise Israel at all, they would be subjected to hatred. Either way, what they do is not motivated by real concern or empathy for their fellow human beings. Whatever they do, or do not do, is still all about them.
(...) To be clear, I am saying that people have always sacrificed and betrayed victims, simply because they could not face their own uncomfortable feelings. The intensely uncomfortable feelings that cognitive dissonance makes us feel are our saving grace. They open a door for us, and invite us to our own redemption. Some people walk through the door, and others repeatedly slam it shut.
(...) When I began to understand that Israel was a settler-colonial, cult-like country; when I began to see more and more clearly how I was lied to and manipulated in my childhood and through my life in Israel, I began to grieve for myself. I now grieve for the Palestinians people, my fellow human beings. They are the victims of an unfolding genocide that has its origins in the late 1880s, when the Zionist movement began. The Palestinian people did nothing wrong. Their ‘big crime’, for which they are being eliminated is that they happened to live on the land that the Zionists coveted for an exclusively Jewish ghetto state.
I still feel guilt about the fact that I am from Israel. I know people should not be judged by where they are born, or what language they speak, but by what they do, and what they stand for. My partner always says that it does not matter what you used to believe. What matters is what you do when you find out the truth. I agree completely. But a part of me still wishes I was never born in Israel, and was never a member of the perpetrator group.
(I am happy to feel this, because I am OK with all of my feelings. I am not the victim in this story. The Palestinian people are).
Just some Hollywood folks who didn't forget: As the tides turn, a pro-Israel Hollywood open letter goes offline. But we saved it for you.
Just some British civil servants: (Declassified UK) Gaza: Revolt in the Foreign Office - Exclusive: Hundreds of civil servants have written to David Cameron urging the government to publish its legal advice on whether its support to Israel breaches international law, writes a former aid official.
Amid Britain’s ongoing complicity and support for Israel’s ‘plausible genocide’ in Gaza, an increasing number of staff in the Foreign Office, I’m told up to 300, have formally raised concerns with ministers, seeking a change of course.
They are questioning ministers’ actions and policy in relation to Gaza and asking to see the legal advice they received that this is based on – advice that they have so far refused to publish, despite calls to do so from some in parliament.
But foreign secretary David Cameron has not responded to these concerns directly. Instead, he sent the Foreign Office’s political director, Christian Turner, to have a meeting with a small contingent of those raising concerns about UK policy and breaches of international humanitarian law in Gaza.
The meeting, which took place in person at the department’s King Charles Street head office, was not minuted and participants were not allowed to take notes.
This may appear benign, but not having notes of a meeting in the civil service is highly unusual, never mind a senior civil servant telling officials they aren’t allowed to take notes. Notes are taken as a record of decision making and discussions, so it raises concerns that this was actively stopped from happening in this case.
This meeting was part of the effort to silence legitimate concerns from a range of officials from across the department, including any potential individual accountability for civil servants working on issues related to Israel and Palestine.
Some staff are even rejecting requests to work on the crisis due to concerns of complicity in war crimes.
Just a law journal: (The Intercept) Columbia Law Review Refused to Take Down Article on Palestine, So Its Board of Directors Nuked the Whole Website - The students who edit the journal sought out the article by a Palestinian scholar who was censored by Harvard Law Review last year.
The CLR board of directors told The Intercept in a statement that there were concerns about “deviation from the Review’s usual processes” and said it had taken the website down to give all CLR members the chance to read the article and that the decision was not a final decision on publication.
“We spoke to certain members of the student leadership to ask that they delay publication for a few days so that, at a minimum, the manuscript could be shared with all student editors, to provide them with a chance to read it and respond,” the board said. “Nevertheless, we learned this morning that the manuscript had been made public. In order to provide time for the Law Review to determine how to proceed, we have temporarily suspended its website.”
The apparent intervention by the board of directors surprised some Columba Law School faculty.
“I don’t suspect that they would have asserted this kind of control had the piece been about Tibet, Kashmir, Puerto Rico, or other contested political sites,” Katherine Franke, a professor, told The Intercept.
“When Columbia Law Professor Herbert Weschler published his important article questioning the underlying justification for Brown v. Board of Education in 1959 it was regarded by many as blasphemous, but is now regarded as canonical. This is what legal scholarship should do at its best, challenge us to think hard about hard things, even when it is uncomfortable doing so.”
posted by cendawanita at 9:44 PM on June 4 [8 favorites]
There are thirty dead Palestinians for every dead Israeli. Thirteen of them are children. Be aware of when someone eulogizes Israeli hostages but refers to Palestinians as statistics without names or stories.
To resist this, Dr. Refaat Alareer co-founded We Are Not Numbers (WANN). I have been watching his lectures. From one of his English poetry classes in 2021:
The fact that the occupation is arbitrary. Sometimes we think— and I know many people who do this— if Israel bombs some area here or there [...] Okay, there must be something that makes Israel bomb this particular area or this particular house. Most often, Israel will come out and write, [paraphrasing] 'Oops, we made a mistake. Oops, we killed these fifty people by mistake. We didn't mean to kill these. We didn't know that. Israel, that knows everything. With technology technology and everything.'
It could be something arbitrary in the sense that there could be no reason. There's this movement in Israel called Breaking the Silence. They had soldiers, Israeli soldiers, who participated, who killed people, who were part of the occupation. Horrifying testimonies about how they would just for fun kill this, kill that, would shoot somebody. One of the guys was saying like, [paraphrasing] 'We killed somebody because he was walking suspiciously.' For more than a year, I was haunted by how I walked because what does it mean to walk suspiciously? Honestly, what does it mean? Sometimes, they would be counting the cars. For example, okay, one car, two car, you hit the third car. Sometimes, they would be looking at a particular house and not like the paint job or not like something, and they would bomb the hell out of it just because it's ugly.
We've seen videos leaked. Cheering for soldiers, snipers. Cheering for simply killing Palestinians. So why do Israelis do this? The occupation. It's a brutal thing. it deprives, dehumanizes people, but also it could be because they lost. They lost something. I'm sure an Israeli soldier— because Messi last night won the Ballon d'Or, you know, the biggest individual prize for football— may be a Ronaldo fan. An Israeli Ronaldo fan would be angry this morning and turn a Palestinian's life into hell. Maybe they would be losing a match. Maybe somebody would be angry with his mother or girlfriend or kids or boss. This anger would be... in a way, the Palestinians would be paying for it, exactly like the Palestinians have been paying for European sins, the Holocaust, for decades and decades.
Okay, thank you very much for this. I'm sorry if I'm bringing these memories back. But remember, it's always good to write. It's always good to talk, to release.
The lecture is on the poem The Soldier, an idealistic war sonnet by the English soldier, Rupert Brooke, that opens:
To resist this, Dr. Refaat Alareer co-founded We Are Not Numbers (WANN). I have been watching his lectures. From one of his English poetry classes in 2021:
The fact that the occupation is arbitrary. Sometimes we think— and I know many people who do this— if Israel bombs some area here or there [...] Okay, there must be something that makes Israel bomb this particular area or this particular house. Most often, Israel will come out and write, [paraphrasing] 'Oops, we made a mistake. Oops, we killed these fifty people by mistake. We didn't mean to kill these. We didn't know that. Israel, that knows everything. With technology technology and everything.'
It could be something arbitrary in the sense that there could be no reason. There's this movement in Israel called Breaking the Silence. They had soldiers, Israeli soldiers, who participated, who killed people, who were part of the occupation. Horrifying testimonies about how they would just for fun kill this, kill that, would shoot somebody. One of the guys was saying like, [paraphrasing] 'We killed somebody because he was walking suspiciously.' For more than a year, I was haunted by how I walked because what does it mean to walk suspiciously? Honestly, what does it mean? Sometimes, they would be counting the cars. For example, okay, one car, two car, you hit the third car. Sometimes, they would be looking at a particular house and not like the paint job or not like something, and they would bomb the hell out of it just because it's ugly.
We've seen videos leaked. Cheering for soldiers, snipers. Cheering for simply killing Palestinians. So why do Israelis do this? The occupation. It's a brutal thing. it deprives, dehumanizes people, but also it could be because they lost. They lost something. I'm sure an Israeli soldier— because Messi last night won the Ballon d'Or, you know, the biggest individual prize for football— may be a Ronaldo fan. An Israeli Ronaldo fan would be angry this morning and turn a Palestinian's life into hell. Maybe they would be losing a match. Maybe somebody would be angry with his mother or girlfriend or kids or boss. This anger would be... in a way, the Palestinians would be paying for it, exactly like the Palestinians have been paying for European sins, the Holocaust, for decades and decades.
Okay, thank you very much for this. I'm sorry if I'm bringing these memories back. But remember, it's always good to write. It's always good to talk, to release.
The lecture is on the poem The Soldier, an idealistic war sonnet by the English soldier, Rupert Brooke, that opens:
If I should die, think only this of me:I think Refaat referenced this in his final poem:
That there’s some corner of a foreign field
That is for ever England [...]
If I Must Dieposted by i like crows very much at 11:08 PM on June 4 [9 favorites]
If I must die,
you must live
to tell my story
to sell my things
to buy a piece of cloth
and some strings,
(make it white with a long tail)
so that a child, somewhere in Gaza
while looking heaven in the eye
awaiting his dad who left in a blaze—
and bid no one farewell
not even to his flesh
not even to himself—
sees the kite, my kite you made, flying up above
and thinks for a moment an angel is there
bringing back love
If I must die
let it bring hope
let it be a tale
—Refaat Alareer
And for what? Gaza reduced to rubble, suffering on an unimaginable level, all so Hamas and Israel can have basically the same fragile ceasefire that existed on October 6th. Perhaps the liberation you say justified this violence is obscured by the rubble, the bodies and the dust.
Whether or not Israel's concomitant reduction to rubble of its own international reputation has at last created conditions for genuine political growth in its region remains to be seen.
I personally hold some degree of hope for such growth. Never in my life have I seen so many people willing to condemn Israel's unchecked brutality as the indefensible horror that it always has been, nor so many resources devoted to shutting down Palestinian voices to so little effect.
The suffering of Palestinians will continue for as long as Likud remains in a position to inflict it because Likud, like any other supremacist organization, is irredeemably monstrous and needs to be dismantled.
I cannot speak for anybody else, but if I were family to an activist artist who had spent their whole life trying to draw attention to the scale and cause of suffering that their own country was routinely and unjustifiably inflicting, I would be pissed off to see their death held up in support of some kind of waffly both-sidesist alternative account.
posted by flabdablet at 11:48 PM on June 4 [6 favorites]
Whether or not Israel's concomitant reduction to rubble of its own international reputation has at last created conditions for genuine political growth in its region remains to be seen.
I personally hold some degree of hope for such growth. Never in my life have I seen so many people willing to condemn Israel's unchecked brutality as the indefensible horror that it always has been, nor so many resources devoted to shutting down Palestinian voices to so little effect.
The suffering of Palestinians will continue for as long as Likud remains in a position to inflict it because Likud, like any other supremacist organization, is irredeemably monstrous and needs to be dismantled.
I cannot speak for anybody else, but if I were family to an activist artist who had spent their whole life trying to draw attention to the scale and cause of suffering that their own country was routinely and unjustifiably inflicting, I would be pissed off to see their death held up in support of some kind of waffly both-sidesist alternative account.
posted by flabdablet at 11:48 PM on June 4 [6 favorites]
it is a multi-billion dollar military apparatus backed by the weapons and the political might of the world's superpower against a people that has been deprived for generations of all forms of sovereignty and self-determination
Oh there are folks who can relate when it comes to being on the receiving end of the political might of a colonial superpower armed up against a people that have been deprived for generations of all forms of sovereignty and self-determination. It's so great though that the government of the occupying population wrote a report about it -- that'll surely get those children unraped/things changed. [/sarcasm]
There is no settler-colonialism without a ‘policy of elimination’
Nope, nope, nope, nope, I totally agree. There's a reason the pattern of forgetting/"forgetting"/not-seeing keeps repeating, no matter where or under what capitalist guise it is perpetrated. Not at all suggesting that IRSS should derail the focus from Gaza by any means; just holding up a reflection of what it all could possibly be looking like once it's been watered down a few generations for those outside the conflict. Anyhow, weighing in a little later than intended but here we go.
Gaza ceasefire plan turns into deadly game of survival
the end of the war doesn't represent the end of his time leading the government, it represents the end of his life
This framing speaks loud and almost hilariously clear to the dynamics of narcissistic projection, i.e. how ageing old man leaders who are not directly experiencing death presume themselves to be experiencing emotional and financial atrocities worse than death even more so than the children and adult casualties of the actual war. That an old man is willing to hurt vulnerable people in order to remain comfortable is precisely what Lloyd DeMause's psychogenic theory is trying to articulate when he suggests the many warleaders are men who *need* to hurt and kill children in order to avoid feeling the feelings associated with their own Bad Child Selves embedded as right-brain altars during early childhood:
Rather than read into these ageing-onset behaviors as indictments on the viable humanity of those targeted to serve as outlets for the inner tension sustained by unresolved traumas residing in the nervous system and to facilitate self-soothing desired by the perpetrating individual who was unable to secure resolution for their trauma during the plasticity phase of their lifespan... Rather than allow these behaviors to run amok, much to the embarrassment of the individual their community and upwards of the Nation... and Rather than read into them as sage yet fragile rabbitholes that each need to be preserved, followed into and rigorously pursued... instead recognize them as the voices of past abuses, accusations, and humiliations that they really are, and then as a species, work to adapt.
posted by human ecologist at 5:14 AM on June 5 [3 favorites]
Oh there are folks who can relate when it comes to being on the receiving end of the political might of a colonial superpower armed up against a people that have been deprived for generations of all forms of sovereignty and self-determination. It's so great though that the government of the occupying population wrote a report about it -- that'll surely get those children unraped/things changed. [/sarcasm]
There is no settler-colonialism without a ‘policy of elimination’
Nope, nope, nope, nope, I totally agree. There's a reason the pattern of forgetting/"forgetting"/not-seeing keeps repeating, no matter where or under what capitalist guise it is perpetrated. Not at all suggesting that IRSS should derail the focus from Gaza by any means; just holding up a reflection of what it all could possibly be looking like once it's been watered down a few generations for those outside the conflict. Anyhow, weighing in a little later than intended but here we go.
Gaza ceasefire plan turns into deadly game of survival
the end of the war doesn't represent the end of his time leading the government, it represents the end of his life
This framing speaks loud and almost hilariously clear to the dynamics of narcissistic projection, i.e. how ageing old man leaders who are not directly experiencing death presume themselves to be experiencing emotional and financial atrocities worse than death even more so than the children and adult casualties of the actual war. That an old man is willing to hurt vulnerable people in order to remain comfortable is precisely what Lloyd DeMause's psychogenic theory is trying to articulate when he suggests the many warleaders are men who *need* to hurt and kill children in order to avoid feeling the feelings associated with their own Bad Child Selves embedded as right-brain altars during early childhood:
Psychogenic theory posited the central force for change in history is neither technology nor economics but the "psychogenic" changes in personality occurring across successive generations of parent-child interactions. It is the first social theory that posits love [i.e. healthy secure attachment] as the central mechanism for historical change [which is well demonstrated by] clinical, experimental and social sciences of the past century have shown that love produces the individuation needed for human innovation -- that is, for cultural evolution.(btw what's going on in the US that trauma-informed practice doesn't take off? you guys actually have some really good programs that would couple well with it. curious about trauma-informed practice? check out the 2017 guide, updated from the 2013 guide I'm more familiar with)
[Human evolution] depends upon parents not reinflicting the damage done to them by their own families [through negligence or abuse, creating] alters [which] are the time bombs embedded in the right brain during childhood that are the sources of all later violence. [Nations bloodthirsty for war are frequently ruled by warleaders who will align their individual with the collective and facilitate the outlets needed for offloading childhood traumas]. Humiliation by the parent is always repeated is always repeated toward the out-groups, and so humiliation and counter-humiliation become the central tasks of international affairs.
It is the dissociated aspect of social violence and war that allows so many psychologists to conclude that men like Goering or Auschwitz guards or bin Laden are "perfectly normal," since their left-brain personalities are well organized, not "psychotic," while their right-brain dissociated alter modules periodically take over and commit their violence. [This is how our unresolved trauma particularly from our early developmental years can run amok in our later years, if left unacknowledged, unchecked, and unreconciled.] When childrearing doesn't change, economies and cultures do not change.
Rather than read into these ageing-onset behaviors as indictments on the viable humanity of those targeted to serve as outlets for the inner tension sustained by unresolved traumas residing in the nervous system and to facilitate self-soothing desired by the perpetrating individual who was unable to secure resolution for their trauma during the plasticity phase of their lifespan... Rather than allow these behaviors to run amok, much to the embarrassment of the individual their community and upwards of the Nation... and Rather than read into them as sage yet fragile rabbitholes that each need to be preserved, followed into and rigorously pursued... instead recognize them as the voices of past abuses, accusations, and humiliations that they really are, and then as a species, work to adapt.
posted by human ecologist at 5:14 AM on June 5 [3 favorites]
The corruption case against Netanyahu has not been suspended. It continues to slowly move forward. Testimony is ongoing, I don’t know how many more months or years it will take.
A person under indictment is not allowed to hold a cabinet post other than PM while under indictment. If he is convicted though then my understanding is that he’s gone, PM or not once the appeals are done. Hence his desire to push through judicial reforms so he can replace the appellate judges or just have the Knesset overturn the verdict.
posted by interogative mood at 7:02 AM on June 5
A person under indictment is not allowed to hold a cabinet post other than PM while under indictment. If he is convicted though then my understanding is that he’s gone, PM or not once the appeals are done. Hence his desire to push through judicial reforms so he can replace the appellate judges or just have the Knesset overturn the verdict.
posted by interogative mood at 7:02 AM on June 5
Lebanon arrests gunman following attack on US embassy in Beirut
posted by adamvasco at 8:11 AM on June 5 [1 favorite]
posted by adamvasco at 8:11 AM on June 5 [1 favorite]
cendawanita quoted the headline, "Columbia Law Review Refused to Take Down Article on Palestine, So Its Board of Directors Nuked the Whole Website"
The aforementioned article, Toward Nakba As A Legal Concept by Rabea Eghbariah (pdf), draws some powerful connections. I could see why the board felt threatened:
Should the legal articulation of Nakba entail a future transformation into, simply, “nakba” as a common noun? Should Nakba then transcend its settler-colonial origins? What cases might then qualify for a Nakba analogy? Might we understand the Armenian displacement from Artsakh as a Nakba? Might scholars understand an Indian implementation of the “Israel model” in Kashmir as a Nakba? Or perhaps we should invoke the concept of Nakba in relation to the Trail of Tears and the decimation of Native nations in North America? Should scholars understand the denial of the Sahrawi people’s right to self-determination—or perhaps Russia’s potentially indefinite occupation of Ukrainian territory—as a Nakba? Must all components of Nakba—foundation, structure, and purpose—be fulfilled for a case to qualify for that category? Or should the legal formulation of the crime broaden its application to cases that correspond with only some of these elements?
This Article leaves these questions open. The value of recognizing the Nakba does not necessarily lie in its generalizability, although generalizability is a natural byproduct of codification. Importing the concept of Nakba to other contexts is ultimately the decision of those who inhabit the crushing violence of those contexts.
posted by i like crows very much at 9:55 AM on June 5 [8 favorites]
The aforementioned article, Toward Nakba As A Legal Concept by Rabea Eghbariah (pdf), draws some powerful connections. I could see why the board felt threatened:
Should the legal articulation of Nakba entail a future transformation into, simply, “nakba” as a common noun? Should Nakba then transcend its settler-colonial origins? What cases might then qualify for a Nakba analogy? Might we understand the Armenian displacement from Artsakh as a Nakba? Might scholars understand an Indian implementation of the “Israel model” in Kashmir as a Nakba? Or perhaps we should invoke the concept of Nakba in relation to the Trail of Tears and the decimation of Native nations in North America? Should scholars understand the denial of the Sahrawi people’s right to self-determination—or perhaps Russia’s potentially indefinite occupation of Ukrainian territory—as a Nakba? Must all components of Nakba—foundation, structure, and purpose—be fulfilled for a case to qualify for that category? Or should the legal formulation of the crime broaden its application to cases that correspond with only some of these elements?
This Article leaves these questions open. The value of recognizing the Nakba does not necessarily lie in its generalizability, although generalizability is a natural byproduct of codification. Importing the concept of Nakba to other contexts is ultimately the decision of those who inhabit the crushing violence of those contexts.
posted by i like crows very much at 9:55 AM on June 5 [8 favorites]
Hezbolllah hit a soccer field in Druze village of Hurfeish in northern Israel with drones. According to a more graphic report (warning). A second drone hit the field as the rescuers showed up to help the wounded. Seemingly directly targeting the first responders.
The town is 98% Druze and it dates back to at least the 1500s.
posted by interogative mood at 2:44 PM on June 5
The town is 98% Druze and it dates back to at least the 1500s.
posted by interogative mood at 2:44 PM on June 5
Israel Secretly Targeted American Lawmakers With Gaza War Influence Campaign (Haaretz via archive):
Israel Secretly Targets U.S. Lawmakers With Influence Campaign on Gaza War (NYT via archive):
In an attempt to sway global public opinion on the war in Gaza, fake accounts and sites spread pro-Israel and Islamophobic content. The operation was orchestrated by Israel's Diaspora Affairs Ministry and run by a political campaigning firm
Israel Secretly Targets U.S. Lawmakers With Influence Campaign on Gaza War (NYT via archive):
The campaign began in October and remains active on the platform X. At its peak, it used hundreds of fake accounts that posed as real Americans on X, Facebook and Instagram to post pro-Israel comments. The accounts focused on U.S. lawmakers, particularly ones who are Black and Democrats, such as Representative Hakeem Jeffries, the House minority leader from New York, and Senator Raphael Warnock of Georgia, with posts urging them to continue funding Israel’s military.posted by kmt at 6:58 AM on June 6 [4 favorites]
The operation was orchestrated by Israel's Diaspora Affairs Ministry and run by a political campaigning firm... with posts urging them to continue funding Israel’s military.
So spoiled bored rich (i.e. high-caste) boys have all the time in the world to do this sh*t, while how many of us earn a living making them comfortable, pouring their coffee, cleaning their houses, tending their ego fragility, etc? Being they're so superior, it's so understandable why they don't have time to tend to such trivial things like living. It takes some real psychopathic spirit to put such drive and focus into such specific outcomes for populations never mingled in but such is how it goes in the context of unchecked colonial relations.
Is it still no wonder why it's so hard for those of us from the invisible "other" loser populations who don't ever really stand a chance to make our points "eloquently" enough to be heard -- even if/when we are imported/re-educated/re-purposed for white-caste comfort?
posted by human ecologist at 7:27 AM on June 6
So spoiled bored rich (i.e. high-caste) boys have all the time in the world to do this sh*t, while how many of us earn a living making them comfortable, pouring their coffee, cleaning their houses, tending their ego fragility, etc? Being they're so superior, it's so understandable why they don't have time to tend to such trivial things like living. It takes some real psychopathic spirit to put such drive and focus into such specific outcomes for populations never mingled in but such is how it goes in the context of unchecked colonial relations.
Is it still no wonder why it's so hard for those of us from the invisible "other" loser populations who don't ever really stand a chance to make our points "eloquently" enough to be heard -- even if/when we are imported/re-educated/re-purposed for white-caste comfort?
posted by human ecologist at 7:27 AM on June 6
Dozens killed in Israeli strike on UN school, witnesses say (Guardian US)
It seems we've reached so many points of no return. Targeting hospitals was not enough. Aid groups. Not enough. A UN school, and with US weapons. Are we already in WW3 and just don't know it yet?
Sorry if this is terribly naive, but is it possible some people in our government believe that if we withhold aid from Israel, it will be immediately attacked by its enemies, guaranteeing WW3? Or is it really as simple as the fact Netanyahu has nothing to lose and won't stop until he's removed in one way or another.
posted by Glinn at 8:49 AM on June 6
It seems we've reached so many points of no return. Targeting hospitals was not enough. Aid groups. Not enough. A UN school, and with US weapons. Are we already in WW3 and just don't know it yet?
Sorry if this is terribly naive, but is it possible some people in our government believe that if we withhold aid from Israel, it will be immediately attacked by its enemies, guaranteeing WW3? Or is it really as simple as the fact Netanyahu has nothing to lose and won't stop until he's removed in one way or another.
posted by Glinn at 8:49 AM on June 6
NAACP calls on Biden to halt weapons to Israel as he seeks to shore up support from Black voters: The NAACP, which has advocated for racial justice and rights for Black Americans, said the U.S. must use its influence with Israel to bring a permanent ceasefire to Gaza. According to health authorities in the Hamas-run enclave, Israel's campaign has killed more than 36,000 Palestinians, caused widespread hunger and displaced most of the population from their homes.
"The NAACP calls on President Biden to draw the red line and indefinitely end the shipment of all weapons and artillery to the state of Israel and other states that supply weapons to Hamas and other terrorist organizations. It is imperative that the violence that has claimed so many civilian lives, immediately stop," the organization said in a statement first provided to Reuters.
The Sunrise Movement, a climate organization which previously endorsed Biden, is withholding endorsement of him in 2024 due to his handling of Gaza: Biden is shooting himself in the foot: his actions on fossil fuels and Gaza mean he's not going to get the celebration he's looking for" from environmentally conscious voters, Stevie O'Hanlon, communications director for Sunrise, told Axios.
Congress is working on legislation to withhold aid to the Maldives after the country has decided to ban Israeli passport holders from entering.
Thousands of Israelis participate in the annual "Flag March" through occupied East Jerusalem, with some attacking local Palestinians and journalists.
posted by toastyk at 9:28 AM on June 6 [3 favorites]
"The NAACP calls on President Biden to draw the red line and indefinitely end the shipment of all weapons and artillery to the state of Israel and other states that supply weapons to Hamas and other terrorist organizations. It is imperative that the violence that has claimed so many civilian lives, immediately stop," the organization said in a statement first provided to Reuters.
The Sunrise Movement, a climate organization which previously endorsed Biden, is withholding endorsement of him in 2024 due to his handling of Gaza: Biden is shooting himself in the foot: his actions on fossil fuels and Gaza mean he's not going to get the celebration he's looking for" from environmentally conscious voters, Stevie O'Hanlon, communications director for Sunrise, told Axios.
Congress is working on legislation to withhold aid to the Maldives after the country has decided to ban Israeli passport holders from entering.
Thousands of Israelis participate in the annual "Flag March" through occupied East Jerusalem, with some attacking local Palestinians and journalists.
posted by toastyk at 9:28 AM on June 6 [3 favorites]
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posted by cendawanita at 11:51 PM on May 7 [4 favorites]