Last Call for the First Family?
August 6, 2015 5:50 PM Subscribe
The exception that proves Betteridge's law of headlines.
posted by ArmandoAkimbo at 6:03 PM on August 6, 2015 [5 favorites]
posted by ArmandoAkimbo at 6:03 PM on August 6, 2015 [5 favorites]
No, the old school Kirby will always live.
posted by Mblue at 6:03 PM on August 6, 2015 [8 favorites]
posted by Mblue at 6:03 PM on August 6, 2015 [8 favorites]
I just want a full-on, straight-up Kirby-style Doctor Doom movie. I don't even care what hero he fights any more. He's the single best villain in any American comic book mythos (there, I said it) and he deserves better than the attempts that have been made so far.
posted by No-sword at 6:11 PM on August 6, 2015 [22 favorites]
posted by No-sword at 6:11 PM on August 6, 2015 [22 favorites]
It is so weird that the author of this article saw the trailers and posters for this new Fantastic Four movie and thought "Yeah, there's a pretty good chance this will be loved enough that its take on Reed Richards will supplant our current one."
Let's just be polite and say that that isn't quite what I got from them.
[Doctor Doom]'s the single best villain in any American comic book mythos (there, I said it) and he deserves better than the attempts that have been made so far.
Absolutely. By a huge margin, the worst thing about the new Fantastic Four movie is that it represents the continuation of Doctor Doom being unavailable to appear in an amazing film where he casually bats away the established heroes of the MCU as he pursues some grand plot, only to give up on it of his own volition when he realizes that is it beneath him.
posted by IAmUnaware at 6:14 PM on August 6, 2015 [23 favorites]
Let's just be polite and say that that isn't quite what I got from them.
[Doctor Doom]'s the single best villain in any American comic book mythos (there, I said it) and he deserves better than the attempts that have been made so far.
Absolutely. By a huge margin, the worst thing about the new Fantastic Four movie is that it represents the continuation of Doctor Doom being unavailable to appear in an amazing film where he casually bats away the established heroes of the MCU as he pursues some grand plot, only to give up on it of his own volition when he realizes that is it beneath him.
posted by IAmUnaware at 6:14 PM on August 6, 2015 [23 favorites]
I hope this movie bombs hard, yet Fox refuses to give up the license somehow, so Marvel can't reboot it.
The FF are a boring, whitebread team that is symbolic of '60s comics and therefore something that should be taken out back and shot. Then burned. And buried.
They've had three movies and they were all are lame. Stand aside and let the kids lead the way.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:25 PM on August 6, 2015 [12 favorites]
The FF are a boring, whitebread team that is symbolic of '60s comics and therefore something that should be taken out back and shot. Then burned. And buried.
They've had three movies and they were all are lame. Stand aside and let the kids lead the way.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:25 PM on August 6, 2015 [12 favorites]
Like Ant-Man!
posted by Artw at 6:27 PM on August 6, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by Artw at 6:27 PM on August 6, 2015 [2 favorites]
The only FF project I'm looking forward to is the porn parody.
posted by MikeMc at 6:30 PM on August 6, 2015 [5 favorites]
posted by MikeMc at 6:30 PM on August 6, 2015 [5 favorites]
The best FF depiction was the parody on the Venture Bros. But then the guy playing the Reed Richards analogue went and got famous for some tv show or other.
posted by rmd1023 at 6:37 PM on August 6, 2015 [19 favorites]
posted by rmd1023 at 6:37 PM on August 6, 2015 [19 favorites]
The best FF movie was The Incredibles.
posted by coust at 6:39 PM on August 6, 2015 [64 favorites]
posted by coust at 6:39 PM on August 6, 2015 [64 favorites]
Is the ‘Fantastic Four’ Movie the End of the Fantastic Four?
No.
Or to expand on that, the only thing more predictable than a comic character coming back from the dead is a Hollywood franchise coming from from the dead.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 6:46 PM on August 6, 2015 [2 favorites]
No.
Or to expand on that, the only thing more predictable than a comic character coming back from the dead is a Hollywood franchise coming from from the dead.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 6:46 PM on August 6, 2015 [2 favorites]
I am jealous of his having had 100-plus ideas. But I
And, even worse, none of those ideas was "write a kind of meandering and vague column on the Fantastic Four," sir Richards is even further ahead!
posted by GenjiandProust at 6:55 PM on August 6, 2015
And, even worse, none of those ideas was "write a kind of meandering and vague column on the Fantastic Four," sir Richards is even further ahead!
posted by GenjiandProust at 6:55 PM on August 6, 2015
Or to expand on that, the only thing more predictable than a comic character coming back from the dead is a Hollywood franchise coming from from the dead.
Cancelled is worse than dead though.
posted by Artw at 6:59 PM on August 6, 2015
Cancelled is worse than dead though.
posted by Artw at 6:59 PM on August 6, 2015
The FF are a boring, whitebread team that is symbolic of '60s comics and therefore something that should be taken out back and shot. Then burned. And buried.
Brandon Blatcher
You should check out Jonathan Hickman's now-legendary run on FF from a few years ago. It will really change your mind on the team. I used to feel the same way.
Except for Doom. Doom has always been the best. All hail God Emperor Doom.
posted by Sangermaine at 7:05 PM on August 6, 2015 [6 favorites]
Brandon Blatcher
You should check out Jonathan Hickman's now-legendary run on FF from a few years ago. It will really change your mind on the team. I used to feel the same way.
Except for Doom. Doom has always been the best. All hail God Emperor Doom.
posted by Sangermaine at 7:05 PM on August 6, 2015 [6 favorites]
That was a toot unworthy of Doom.
posted by GenjiandProust at 7:12 PM on August 6, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by GenjiandProust at 7:12 PM on August 6, 2015 [3 favorites]
Fool! Doom toots as he ploots! Wait, I'll come in again.
posted by No-sword at 7:13 PM on August 6, 2015 [15 favorites]
posted by No-sword at 7:13 PM on August 6, 2015 [15 favorites]
At this point, having had this much success while his competitors falter despite using the same instruments, we have to wonder whether Kevin Feige actually sold his soul to a dark stranger at the crossroads.
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 7:22 PM on August 6, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 7:22 PM on August 6, 2015 [3 favorites]
Chris Lough @ Tor.com
posted by CBrachyrhynchos at 7:27 PM on August 6, 2015 [21 favorites]
Reed isn’t even interested in his life’s work! The construction of an actual, giant, working interdimensional teleporter is handled via montage. We don’t get to see Reed rattle off insane theories at lightning speed, or construct impossible gadgets to assist the functioning of other impossible gadgets, or worry himself sleepless over an engineering problem he knows he should be able to beat. ... If you’ve seen Ghostbusters (hah, “if”) then you recall how Egon is constantly spouting gibberish that makes it seem as if his breadth of knowledge is far beyond ours. What the heck is Tobin’s Spirit Guide? How did he build the proton packs? “This structure has exactly the same kind of telemetry that NASA uses to identify dead pulsars in deep space.” That is an actual sentence that Egon utters in jail and it has no importance to the plot but it’s GREAT because it’s yet another sign that Egon’s brain never stops working, never stops exploring. You get no such indication from this movie’s Reed Richards. In fact, when the interdimensional pod breaks down after its first hop, the circuitry of its power supply fails. In response, Reed just pounds a button screaming “I don’t know what to do!” even though he built the damn thing.The SecondThanos and Darkseid: Carpool Buddies of Doom: "Doom finds Breaking Bad glorius."
posted by CBrachyrhynchos at 7:27 PM on August 6, 2015 [21 favorites]
The best FF depiction was the parody on the Venture Bros.
So, so good. Don't forget there is also a Doctor Doom parody as well.
posted by Nevin at 7:29 PM on August 6, 2015 [1 favorite]
So, so good. Don't forget there is also a Doctor Doom parody as well.
posted by Nevin at 7:29 PM on August 6, 2015 [1 favorite]
A year ago I had a fantastic version of this. And it would've recieved great reviews. You’ll probably never see it. That’s reality though
posted by Artw at 7:33 PM on August 6, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by Artw at 7:33 PM on August 6, 2015 [2 favorites]
FF would have been a perfect fit for the MCU -- a team of very public super-science heroes who fight (a) cosmic threats and (b) the single best villain in the superhero genre.
But instead they got Spider-Man, and now the FF are a dead letter in movies. Maybe they'll get a comic again once Fox gives up.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 7:38 PM on August 6, 2015
But instead they got Spider-Man, and now the FF are a dead letter in movies. Maybe they'll get a comic again once Fox gives up.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 7:38 PM on August 6, 2015
Really interesting, varied powers, a weird blend of science fiction and superheroing, a love triangle with Namor, some of the best villains in comics... yeah, the FF suck. Meanwhile people are peeing themselves like puppies over Deadpool, a two-bit Wolverine knockoff with a mouth like Spiderman if Spiderman was mean instead of funny.
posted by Sing Or Swim at 7:40 PM on August 6, 2015 [10 favorites]
posted by Sing Or Swim at 7:40 PM on August 6, 2015 [10 favorites]
Turns Out The Fantastic Four And X-Men Movies Are In Different Universes
Like matter and antimatter, only the matter is money.
posted by Artw at 7:40 PM on August 6, 2015 [1 favorite]
Like matter and antimatter, only the matter is money.
posted by Artw at 7:40 PM on August 6, 2015 [1 favorite]
a two-bit Wolverine knockoff with a mouth like Spiderman if Spiderman was mean instead of funny.
I think of him as "Ambush Bug but more murdery".
/Hopes to god Warner don't remember Ambush Bug exists.
posted by Artw at 7:41 PM on August 6, 2015 [9 favorites]
I think of him as "Ambush Bug but more murdery".
/Hopes to god Warner don't remember Ambush Bug exists.
posted by Artw at 7:41 PM on August 6, 2015 [9 favorites]
Time to poach Michael B. Jordan for the MCU! It can be a rite of passage for each successive Johnny Storm.
posted by nicebookrack at 7:47 PM on August 6, 2015 [17 favorites]
posted by nicebookrack at 7:47 PM on August 6, 2015 [17 favorites]
It really is a shame that Fox's possession of the FF franchise rights locks up so many great characters (besides the FF themselves and Doom): the Silver Surfer, Galactus, Annihilus, the High Evolutionary, the Skrulls, hell, even the Mole Man.
There are a ton of amazing characters that are being dragged down by these shitty clunkers Fox keeps putting out.
posted by Sangermaine at 7:56 PM on August 6, 2015 [3 favorites]
There are a ton of amazing characters that are being dragged down by these shitty clunkers Fox keeps putting out.
posted by Sangermaine at 7:56 PM on August 6, 2015 [3 favorites]
Why in the name of God-Emperor Doom would you ever make a grimdark version of the Fantastic Four? They're the glitterati celebutante family of superheroes. It's like a grimdark reboot of the Kardashians!
Disney should just merge The Incredibles into the MCU with a wave of the canon-wand. And give Fox all the money ever in exchange for Doctor Doom. The Age of Ultron Sokovian refugees can find salvation in the benevolent steel embrace of glorious Latveria.
posted by nicebookrack at 7:57 PM on August 6, 2015 [9 favorites]
Disney should just merge The Incredibles into the MCU with a wave of the canon-wand. And give Fox all the money ever in exchange for Doctor Doom. The Age of Ultron Sokovian refugees can find salvation in the benevolent steel embrace of glorious Latveria.
posted by nicebookrack at 7:57 PM on August 6, 2015 [9 favorites]
Someone on Reddit suggested luring Michael B. Jordan away to play Patriot, which would both be amazing and continue the Captain America theme!
posted by nicebookrack at 8:00 PM on August 6, 2015 [10 favorites]
posted by nicebookrack at 8:00 PM on August 6, 2015 [10 favorites]
The Age of Ultron Sokovian refugees can find salvation in the benevolent steel embrace of glorious Latveria.
That is exactly my dream pitch for the FF in the MCU. Reed takes the team to space by duplicating Loki's portal from the first Avengers, while Victor arrives on the world scene by turning the ruins of Sokovia into an idyllic city-state where all serve Doom.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 8:02 PM on August 6, 2015 [9 favorites]
That is exactly my dream pitch for the FF in the MCU. Reed takes the team to space by duplicating Loki's portal from the first Avengers, while Victor arrives on the world scene by turning the ruins of Sokovia into an idyllic city-state where all serve Doom.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 8:02 PM on August 6, 2015 [9 favorites]
It's like a grimdark reboot of the Kardashians!
Yes, that's a...terrible...idea...
Excuse me, I have to make a phone call.
posted by Sangermaine at 8:11 PM on August 6, 2015 [15 favorites]
Yes, that's a...terrible...idea...
Excuse me, I have to make a phone call.
posted by Sangermaine at 8:11 PM on August 6, 2015 [15 favorites]
Nah, it's just a shitty movie. Some day Marvel will reclaim the rights they sold away and do it right (or cut some kind of weird deal with Fox like they did with Sony), but that probably won't be for many years.
Oh, and there's something magical about those early issues of Fantastic Four, in addition to (or maybe because of) the work of Kirby in his prime. They hate each other, they love each other, the world hates them, the world loves them. Doom definitely hates them. They're rich, they're poor, then rich again. Status quo lurches from one pole to another depending on the issue and there's always more wonderful characters just around the corner. Wyatt Wingfoot. Namor. Black Panther. Every one of the Inhumans. Silver Surfer. Galactus! On and on.
posted by Kevin Street at 8:12 PM on August 6, 2015 [3 favorites]
Oh, and there's something magical about those early issues of Fantastic Four, in addition to (or maybe because of) the work of Kirby in his prime. They hate each other, they love each other, the world hates them, the world loves them. Doom definitely hates them. They're rich, they're poor, then rich again. Status quo lurches from one pole to another depending on the issue and there's always more wonderful characters just around the corner. Wyatt Wingfoot. Namor. Black Panther. Every one of the Inhumans. Silver Surfer. Galactus! On and on.
posted by Kevin Street at 8:12 PM on August 6, 2015 [3 favorites]
Relive those early Fantadtic Fours with the Baxter Building on the Wait! What? podcast!
posted by Artw at 8:21 PM on August 6, 2015
posted by Artw at 8:21 PM on August 6, 2015
There needs to be some sort of minimum moratorium on reboots, Fantastic Four has been reset twice in what, 10 years? Spiderman twice in ten years across 5 movies. The Hulk, what, three times? I know Hollywood is bankrupt of ideas, but remaking literally the same movies within a decade is absurd.
posted by T.D. Strange at 8:27 PM on August 6, 2015 [6 favorites]
posted by T.D. Strange at 8:27 PM on August 6, 2015 [6 favorites]
Trank seems to be already spinning that Fox ruined his original cut. That may well be true. However, I agree with the writer of the Grantland article that making Reed Richards a teenager was probably a mistake, and I also agree with most of the people in this thread that the version of Doom that's closer to the 616 version would have been better, as well.
posted by Halloween Jack at 8:27 PM on August 6, 2015
posted by Halloween Jack at 8:27 PM on August 6, 2015
I'm still waiting for some brave studio to undertake the filming of all the MCU Hostess Fruit Pie ads. Now that was some storytelling.
posted by George_Spiggott at 8:41 PM on August 6, 2015 [18 favorites]
posted by George_Spiggott at 8:41 PM on August 6, 2015 [18 favorites]
I don't understand why Fox wouldn't sell the rights to MCU à la Spider-Man. It's clear they don't know how to make money off of the property, not fuck-you levels of money anyway. Cut a deal w/ MCU to take 10% of the net or something. MCU gets Doom, which is fuck-tons better than Thanos, everybody wins.
posted by nushustu at 8:46 PM on August 6, 2015
posted by nushustu at 8:46 PM on August 6, 2015
Chris Lough @ Tor.com
One thing I could only allude to in my review was The Thing's persistent pantslessness in the movie. Everyone else gets custom suits to help them control their powers, but they can't make Ben some shorts?
Maybe Ben refused them. "No! I'm a monster. Let them see my dick nub."
Also notable: No Stan Lee cameo!
posted by greenland at 8:49 PM on August 6, 2015 [5 favorites]
One thing I could only allude to in my review was The Thing's persistent pantslessness in the movie. Everyone else gets custom suits to help them control their powers, but they can't make Ben some shorts?
Maybe Ben refused them. "No! I'm a monster. Let them see my dick nub."
Also notable: No Stan Lee cameo!
posted by greenland at 8:49 PM on August 6, 2015 [5 favorites]
Am I the only one who noticed what a lazy and amateurish take the F4 powers were on the classical elements of Earth, Air, Fire, and Water? That fail is fundamental. I will be going to see the movie with my father this weekend. I've seen the others. Expect to enjoy it. Promises lots of flashy eye candy and snark. Tom like.
But really, this shit isn't Shakespeare. Some of the other Marvel characters almost are, and especially by comparison, but not F4. As often happens the first draft -- yeah, I know F4 were the breakout characters that created the whole Marvel universe -- are the rough drafts, the least polished, and the most embarrassing. If they are being written out of the MCU that might be one reason.
Then again, Marvel made a movie featuring a tree and a raccoon work, and then made a movie about a superhero the size of an ant work. So what do I know.
posted by Bringer Tom at 8:49 PM on August 6, 2015
But really, this shit isn't Shakespeare. Some of the other Marvel characters almost are, and especially by comparison, but not F4. As often happens the first draft -- yeah, I know F4 were the breakout characters that created the whole Marvel universe -- are the rough drafts, the least polished, and the most embarrassing. If they are being written out of the MCU that might be one reason.
Then again, Marvel made a movie featuring a tree and a raccoon work, and then made a movie about a superhero the size of an ant work. So what do I know.
posted by Bringer Tom at 8:49 PM on August 6, 2015
But lending the F4 to Marvel will cover the MCU in glory without giving Fox any credit. Not an exciting prospect for Fox. I wager Fox will continue to sabotage the MCU by holding the F4 and X-Men hostage and with them a huge swathe of the interesting villains in Marvel. Fox can make fuck-you F4 movies for the rights grab while exploiting the real moneymaker of the X-Men, because they can populate an entire Earth with X-characters and still have X-Forces left over.
posted by nicebookrack at 8:57 PM on August 6, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by nicebookrack at 8:57 PM on August 6, 2015 [1 favorite]
Adam X the X-Treme, your day will come.
posted by Artw at 9:02 PM on August 6, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by Artw at 9:02 PM on August 6, 2015 [4 favorites]
(Crap, my comment is kinda spoilery. Can mods delete?)
posted by greenland at 9:03 PM on August 6, 2015
posted by greenland at 9:03 PM on August 6, 2015
You should check out Jonathan Hickman's now-legendary run on FF from a few years ago. It will really change your mind on the team. I used to feel the same way
Thanks, I'll check this out. I've always found the FF insufferable.
Meanwhile people are peeing themselves like puppies over Deadpool, a two-bit Wolverine knockoff with a mouth like Spiderman if Spiderman was mean instead of funny.
Touché. To be fair, the writing for Wolverine has been shitty for basically ever.
posted by Maugrim at 9:03 PM on August 6, 2015
Thanks, I'll check this out. I've always found the FF insufferable.
Meanwhile people are peeing themselves like puppies over Deadpool, a two-bit Wolverine knockoff with a mouth like Spiderman if Spiderman was mean instead of funny.
Touché. To be fair, the writing for Wolverine has been shitty for basically ever.
posted by Maugrim at 9:03 PM on August 6, 2015
The Fantastic Four are so goddamn boring. I understand this movie is made mostly to cement their ownership of it but do you really want them?
posted by the uncomplicated soups of my childhood at 9:04 PM on August 6, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by the uncomplicated soups of my childhood at 9:04 PM on August 6, 2015 [1 favorite]
>Trank seems to be already spinning that Fox ruined his original cut.
If you aren't brave enough to let Alan Smithee take over as director the faults of the finished film are yours to shoulder for the rest of your career.
posted by Catblack at 9:08 PM on August 6, 2015 [9 favorites]
If you aren't brave enough to let Alan Smithee take over as director the faults of the finished film are yours to shoulder for the rest of your career.
posted by Catblack at 9:08 PM on August 6, 2015 [9 favorites]
TBH between the movie bombing and the rep he built for himself making it that probably isn't a long time.
posted by Artw at 9:14 PM on August 6, 2015
posted by Artw at 9:14 PM on August 6, 2015
First they take away Superman's red shorts, and now they make Ben Grimm go commando.
posted by straight at 9:16 PM on August 6, 2015
posted by straight at 9:16 PM on August 6, 2015
Alan Smithee died in 1998 and can't ever be used again.
posted by octothorpe at 9:22 PM on August 6, 2015
posted by octothorpe at 9:22 PM on August 6, 2015
I was pretty sure this movie was gonna suck when the trailers made it clear that the movie was at least 60% backstory and origin retread.
posted by straight at 9:25 PM on August 6, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by straight at 9:25 PM on August 6, 2015 [1 favorite]
Not boring characters, just boring writers. Comic characters are only as inherently boring as the least talented writer makes them. It's the special delight of shared-world universes like Marvel and DC for writers to take other writers' characters and tweak them from something bland/C-list/forgettable/etc. into something amazing. I mean, veering way off-topic here for a second, freaking Archie Comics are amid a goddamn creative renaissance these days, and that is not because Jughead, Betty, Veronica, et al are inherently complex and fascinating.
Sigh. Among other things, I'm sad that movie Sue Storm is apparently once again kinda just there, when she is literally the page image for Took a Level in Badass, for good reason.
posted by nicebookrack at 9:30 PM on August 6, 2015 [8 favorites]
Sigh. Among other things, I'm sad that movie Sue Storm is apparently once again kinda just there, when she is literally the page image for Took a Level in Badass, for good reason.
posted by nicebookrack at 9:30 PM on August 6, 2015 [8 favorites]
I'm down on the new young Reed, but what really gives me conniptions is that for the life of me, I just do not understand why they they can't just do your standard old school Doctor Doom in the movies. He's got it all - mad scientist, evil wizard, megalomaniacal dictator - you just can't ask for a more comic book supervillain.
posted by Trinity-Gehenna at 9:32 PM on August 6, 2015 [8 favorites]
posted by Trinity-Gehenna at 9:32 PM on August 6, 2015 [8 favorites]
His origin has to be linked to their origin, for reasons of stupid.
posted by Artw at 9:38 PM on August 6, 2015 [9 favorites]
posted by Artw at 9:38 PM on August 6, 2015 [9 favorites]
In fairness it's the same way in Ultimate Fantastic Four, which seems to be the comicbook template for this outing.
posted by Artw at 9:38 PM on August 6, 2015
posted by Artw at 9:38 PM on August 6, 2015
Yeah, it's like, kids won't relate to a guy in a green cape and a riveted mask, it's too hokey. Let's make him a telekinetic guy who actually has metal welded to him!
Meanwhile, everyone under the sun loved the talking goddamn raccoon and fucking tree in GotG (no fronting, I did too) and a guy dressed pretty much exactly like old-school Dr Doom was one of the most critically acclaimed hip-hop acts of the 00s. The kids are ready for, nay, demand Doom!
posted by No-sword at 9:42 PM on August 6, 2015 [6 favorites]
Meanwhile, everyone under the sun loved the talking goddamn raccoon and fucking tree in GotG (no fronting, I did too) and a guy dressed pretty much exactly like old-school Dr Doom was one of the most critically acclaimed hip-hop acts of the 00s. The kids are ready for, nay, demand Doom!
posted by No-sword at 9:42 PM on August 6, 2015 [6 favorites]
Deadpool is a two bit Deathstroke ripoff. Deadpool is an enhanced mercenary named Wade Wilson, Deathstroke is an enhanced mercenary named Slade Wilson, and Rob Liefield is a fucking hack. These are all things that are known.
I'm excited for the Deadpool movie because I kinda feel bad for Ryan Reynolds and hope he has a chance to atone for Green Lantern and X-Men Origins: Wolverine. Plus the fact that they're making it an R rated film and actually seem to be going with the "horribly scarred asshole who's humour is a front" Deadpool makes me think it might actually work.
posted by Grimgrin at 9:51 PM on August 6, 2015 [1 favorite]
I'm excited for the Deadpool movie because I kinda feel bad for Ryan Reynolds and hope he has a chance to atone for Green Lantern and X-Men Origins: Wolverine. Plus the fact that they're making it an R rated film and actually seem to be going with the "horribly scarred asshole who's humour is a front" Deadpool makes me think it might actually work.
posted by Grimgrin at 9:51 PM on August 6, 2015 [1 favorite]
What everyone seems to forget when adapting FF is that it is a family soap opera with some punchy bits & cosmic level Mad Science added for seasoning. I honestly think FF would work better as a TV series than a movie franchise.
posted by KingEdRa at 10:00 PM on August 6, 2015 [5 favorites]
posted by KingEdRa at 10:00 PM on August 6, 2015 [5 favorites]
Am I the only one who noticed what a lazy and amateurish take the F4 powers were on the classical elements of Earth, Air, Fire, and Water? That fail is fundamental.
Not really--basing superheroes or supervillains on the four elements wasn't a cliche fifty years ago the way it is today. And the FF were startling for their day, in that the use of their powers drastically altered the appearance of the entire team, in the Thing's case permanently. This was a big visual contrast to the Justice League, who all appeared to be good-looking white people, with the exception of the Martian Manhunter, who was bald and green but otherwise usually had Caucasian features. The FF looked like the sort of people that the Justice League usually fought.
posted by Halloween Jack at 10:03 PM on August 6, 2015 [8 favorites]
Not really--basing superheroes or supervillains on the four elements wasn't a cliche fifty years ago the way it is today. And the FF were startling for their day, in that the use of their powers drastically altered the appearance of the entire team, in the Thing's case permanently. This was a big visual contrast to the Justice League, who all appeared to be good-looking white people, with the exception of the Martian Manhunter, who was bald and green but otherwise usually had Caucasian features. The FF looked like the sort of people that the Justice League usually fought.
posted by Halloween Jack at 10:03 PM on August 6, 2015 [8 favorites]
Time to poach Michael B. Jordan for the MCU!
Or hire him for one of literally dozens of great leading man parts he'd be wonderful in but that are *not* superhero movies. You guys do know that superhero movies aren't the only movies in the world, right?
posted by incessant at 10:08 PM on August 6, 2015 [5 favorites]
Or hire him for one of literally dozens of great leading man parts he'd be wonderful in but that are *not* superhero movies. You guys do know that superhero movies aren't the only movies in the world, right?
posted by incessant at 10:08 PM on August 6, 2015 [5 favorites]
You're saying he could be in a YA adaptation?
posted by Artw at 10:14 PM on August 6, 2015 [26 favorites]
posted by Artw at 10:14 PM on August 6, 2015 [26 favorites]
I think he means, like, a Pixar cameo.
posted by No-sword at 10:25 PM on August 6, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by No-sword at 10:25 PM on August 6, 2015 [4 favorites]
No! I demand more quality superhero movies for my individual entertainment! Quality actors must populate these superhero movies at my whim! And I demand a pony! A UNICORN PONY!
posted by nicebookrack at 10:33 PM on August 6, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by nicebookrack at 10:33 PM on August 6, 2015 [1 favorite]
I imagine the guy who has a website explaining at great length how the first few hundred issues of The Fantastic Four are the Great American Novel would say that it takes more than another crummy movie to finish them off.
posted by Copronymus at 10:38 PM on August 6, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by Copronymus at 10:38 PM on August 6, 2015 [3 favorites]
hey seriously though I don't crash artsy film threads to proclaim "but Werner Herzog would have sooooooo much more audience reach and financial backing if he'd just direct a Dark Avengers movie already jeeze" so let me have my fun :(
although actually that movie would be amazing and I'm sad I can't have it now
posted by nicebookrack at 10:43 PM on August 6, 2015 [6 favorites]
although actually that movie would be amazing and I'm sad I can't have it now
posted by nicebookrack at 10:43 PM on August 6, 2015 [6 favorites]
"What everyone seems to forget when adapting FF is that it is a family soap opera with some punchy bits & cosmic level Mad Science added for seasoning."
Yeah, and not just a family, but a blended family that was somewhat unusual for the 60's but feels very modern today. Ben isn't related to any of them, but he's still "Uncle Benji" to the kids. Johnny is Reed's brother in law, but (especially in the early years) he acted more like Sue's son from another marriage. Even Doom is connected to the family now, since he's sort of Valeria's godfather.
posted by Kevin Street at 10:46 PM on August 6, 2015 [2 favorites]
Yeah, and not just a family, but a blended family that was somewhat unusual for the 60's but feels very modern today. Ben isn't related to any of them, but he's still "Uncle Benji" to the kids. Johnny is Reed's brother in law, but (especially in the early years) he acted more like Sue's son from another marriage. Even Doom is connected to the family now, since he's sort of Valeria's godfather.
posted by Kevin Street at 10:46 PM on August 6, 2015 [2 favorites]
And the Richardses are one of the few superhero families who grew up and made it stick: got married, had two kids, are successful working parents, didn't have kids or marriage retconned by Satan.
Plus Valeria and Uncle Doom are adorable.
posted by nicebookrack at 10:50 PM on August 6, 2015 [5 favorites]
Plus Valeria and Uncle Doom are adorable.
posted by nicebookrack at 10:50 PM on August 6, 2015 [5 favorites]
"...didn't have kids or marriage retconned by Satan."
It's the little things we're thankful for.
posted by Kevin Street at 10:51 PM on August 6, 2015 [7 favorites]
It's the little things we're thankful for.
posted by Kevin Street at 10:51 PM on August 6, 2015 [7 favorites]
Time to poach Michael B. Jordan for the MCU!
Well if any character should be brought back and join the Major Crimes Unit, it should be Wallace!
posted by FJT at 11:01 PM on August 6, 2015 [6 favorites]
Well if any character should be brought back and join the Major Crimes Unit, it should be Wallace!
posted by FJT at 11:01 PM on August 6, 2015 [6 favorites]
I just want to see Fantastic Four made by the team who did Big Hero 6. that's someone who understands how to blend superheroics with mad science with "we're a family now".
Alternatively, I want to see a Rebecca Sugar Fantastic Four. Is that too much to ask?
posted by happyroach at 11:33 PM on August 6, 2015 [2 favorites]
Alternatively, I want to see a Rebecca Sugar Fantastic Four. Is that too much to ask?
posted by happyroach at 11:33 PM on August 6, 2015 [2 favorites]
Marvel's First Family. It's right there in the byline... First Family. Sure it's typically alliterative, but Lee and Kirby couldn't have been more up front about it, and yet everybody completely ignores the key component of the F4. This isn't The Richards Family. It's not The Storm Family. It's Marvel's First Family. And what does that mean? It means two things - first, they're a family; and second, they're originals. They're the start of something new.
Comparisons to The Incredibles are both apt and completely, totally wrong. Superficially yes, they're both super-powered families, with a stretchy person, a strong person, an invisible person, and a brat. But if you think the F4 is stuck in the 1960s, the Parrs took the wayback to the 1950s and earlier because they are a typical, boring, whitebread nuclear family. Pixar's team is the Republican/Libertarian vision of family, while the F4 is left-of-Democrat.
Look at the core F4 relationships. Johnny and Sue are related by blood. Sue and Reed are related by marriage. Reed and Ben are related by bonds of enduring friendship in spite of terrible events. Reed and Johnny are in-laws. Ben and Johnny are de facto brothers-in-arms, at war with each other but united against outsiders. Ben and Sue are... well, not much. And that's the part everyone who doesn't understand the F4 gets wrong. It's not "a guy gets married, brings along best friend". DOMA was about fifty years too late, because Marvel redefined marriage in the 1960s.
The Fantastic Four are a family, not a team, because they say so. That's it. Ben's not "related" in any way, but he's the absolute, undisputed heart of the family. Without him, the apparent outsider, they aren't a family. Together, they have defined a new family unit, and it includes precisely anyone they want. They're not family by blood. They're not family by marriage. They're family by choice, and damn you if you want to claim otherwise.
That's what I thought was so good about the casting of Michael B. Jordan as Johnny. Maybe it was a stunt or the producers trying to be edgy and stir things up, but it actually reinforces the core identity of the F4. Yes, you can be a mixed race family. Yes, adopted children are every bit as family as natural born ones. Family, true family, is a core unit of people who accept each other as members. What's that old line, home is the place where, if you have to go, they have to let you in? That's family, through and through. That's why the four are fantastic.
Fifty years ago, Lee and Kirby washed away the nuclear family and celebrated a new normal. They were not united against a common enemy or through common cause, but by choice. They were not the world's police force. They're not guardians or hired enforcers. They're not the outsiders looking for their place. Some of those things are nice, and are important stories in their own right. No, the F4 said family is something important and worth celebrating, and best of all you get to decide what your family looks like.
And what did they bring? Hope and adventure. Whether it's looking to cure Ben's permanent transformation or raising children or developing incredible new technologies, hope drives the F4. Where there's even one member standing, there's hope for all. The universe might be a terrible place of untold dangers and threats, but that's the great adventure and it's our role to go out there and encounter it, to learn from it, and improve ourselves through it. That's our school ground where we get to learn and advance and meet exciting new people. We get to explore and share and grow, and sometimes get hurt. But we don't stop.
We have our flaws, certainly, but they can be turned to strengths. It's the brash, headstrong Johnny who brings the native American Wyatt Wingfoot into the family, who makes the Inhumans part of the extended clan. Sure, he has poor impulse control but his instincts lead him to befriend others first. And while it has a huge dose of self-interest, Ben's love of Alicia Masters reminds us that disabilities don't detract from a person's value (and not every extended family member is worth keeping around).
Anybody who dismisses the F4 as boring and past their prime really don't understand what's at the team's core. The movies have all missed it as well, especially when they try to shoehorn Doom in there. The family unit is an expression of hope for the future. It declares that, yes times are difficult, but we'd rather be optimists and strive to improve things for others than worry about hoarding enough treasure to sustain ourselves. It looks at life as a big adventure, to be embraced and welcomed and, above all, enjoyed.
Hope and adventure, that's the Fantastic Four. If you turn your back on that, you turn your back on the best part of life.
posted by GhostintheMachine at 11:42 PM on August 6, 2015 [50 favorites]
Comparisons to The Incredibles are both apt and completely, totally wrong. Superficially yes, they're both super-powered families, with a stretchy person, a strong person, an invisible person, and a brat. But if you think the F4 is stuck in the 1960s, the Parrs took the wayback to the 1950s and earlier because they are a typical, boring, whitebread nuclear family. Pixar's team is the Republican/Libertarian vision of family, while the F4 is left-of-Democrat.
Look at the core F4 relationships. Johnny and Sue are related by blood. Sue and Reed are related by marriage. Reed and Ben are related by bonds of enduring friendship in spite of terrible events. Reed and Johnny are in-laws. Ben and Johnny are de facto brothers-in-arms, at war with each other but united against outsiders. Ben and Sue are... well, not much. And that's the part everyone who doesn't understand the F4 gets wrong. It's not "a guy gets married, brings along best friend". DOMA was about fifty years too late, because Marvel redefined marriage in the 1960s.
The Fantastic Four are a family, not a team, because they say so. That's it. Ben's not "related" in any way, but he's the absolute, undisputed heart of the family. Without him, the apparent outsider, they aren't a family. Together, they have defined a new family unit, and it includes precisely anyone they want. They're not family by blood. They're not family by marriage. They're family by choice, and damn you if you want to claim otherwise.
That's what I thought was so good about the casting of Michael B. Jordan as Johnny. Maybe it was a stunt or the producers trying to be edgy and stir things up, but it actually reinforces the core identity of the F4. Yes, you can be a mixed race family. Yes, adopted children are every bit as family as natural born ones. Family, true family, is a core unit of people who accept each other as members. What's that old line, home is the place where, if you have to go, they have to let you in? That's family, through and through. That's why the four are fantastic.
Fifty years ago, Lee and Kirby washed away the nuclear family and celebrated a new normal. They were not united against a common enemy or through common cause, but by choice. They were not the world's police force. They're not guardians or hired enforcers. They're not the outsiders looking for their place. Some of those things are nice, and are important stories in their own right. No, the F4 said family is something important and worth celebrating, and best of all you get to decide what your family looks like.
And what did they bring? Hope and adventure. Whether it's looking to cure Ben's permanent transformation or raising children or developing incredible new technologies, hope drives the F4. Where there's even one member standing, there's hope for all. The universe might be a terrible place of untold dangers and threats, but that's the great adventure and it's our role to go out there and encounter it, to learn from it, and improve ourselves through it. That's our school ground where we get to learn and advance and meet exciting new people. We get to explore and share and grow, and sometimes get hurt. But we don't stop.
We have our flaws, certainly, but they can be turned to strengths. It's the brash, headstrong Johnny who brings the native American Wyatt Wingfoot into the family, who makes the Inhumans part of the extended clan. Sure, he has poor impulse control but his instincts lead him to befriend others first. And while it has a huge dose of self-interest, Ben's love of Alicia Masters reminds us that disabilities don't detract from a person's value (and not every extended family member is worth keeping around).
Anybody who dismisses the F4 as boring and past their prime really don't understand what's at the team's core. The movies have all missed it as well, especially when they try to shoehorn Doom in there. The family unit is an expression of hope for the future. It declares that, yes times are difficult, but we'd rather be optimists and strive to improve things for others than worry about hoarding enough treasure to sustain ourselves. It looks at life as a big adventure, to be embraced and welcomed and, above all, enjoyed.
Hope and adventure, that's the Fantastic Four. If you turn your back on that, you turn your back on the best part of life.
posted by GhostintheMachine at 11:42 PM on August 6, 2015 [50 favorites]
If there were any way of doing it I'd love to see Warren Ellis' "Planetary" as a movie/TV show. The concept of the F4 being evil self-serving shits was at least interesting.
posted by longbaugh at 12:58 AM on August 7, 2015 [5 favorites]
posted by longbaugh at 12:58 AM on August 7, 2015 [5 favorites]
How was it that Sue Storm's kid brother ended up being black? Is one of them adopted?
And I find it amazing that this was yet another rehash of the origin story. Couldn't they find anything else in the entire canon worthy of telling in a movie?
posted by Chocolate Pickle at 1:51 AM on August 7, 2015
And I find it amazing that this was yet another rehash of the origin story. Couldn't they find anything else in the entire canon worthy of telling in a movie?
posted by Chocolate Pickle at 1:51 AM on August 7, 2015
longbaugh, Planetary for me was a lot like a revelation, it was as someone finally showed me the correct perspective to be used to look at the FF.
It cannot be really argued that Reed Richards IS an asshole for being that much a genius, and having built all that amazing technology, and living in the same universe where the people of the earth are still struggling with poverty, violence and illness. And Sue, Ben and John are silent accomplices.
posted by yann at 3:32 AM on August 7, 2015 [1 favorite]
It cannot be really argued that Reed Richards IS an asshole for being that much a genius, and having built all that amazing technology, and living in the same universe where the people of the earth are still struggling with poverty, violence and illness. And Sue, Ben and John are silent accomplices.
posted by yann at 3:32 AM on August 7, 2015 [1 favorite]
How was it that Sue Storm's kid brother ended up being black? Is one of them adopted?
Sue is. And one of the reasons I hate how badly the movie turned out is that racist dickbags will take it as justifying their backlash against that casting decision.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 4:43 AM on August 7, 2015 [4 favorites]
Sue is. And one of the reasons I hate how badly the movie turned out is that racist dickbags will take it as justifying their backlash against that casting decision.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 4:43 AM on August 7, 2015 [4 favorites]
Also, re: the Planetary approach, Jonathan Hickman's run also includes a nice rebuttal to that, in the form of looking at what happens when Reed Richards decides it's time to fix the world.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 4:44 AM on August 7, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 4:44 AM on August 7, 2015 [4 favorites]
I dunno, I feel like you could tell a more interesting story than that. Are we all assholes for arguing about the Fantastic Four on our iPhones while kids all over the world are starving to death? OK, maybe, but it's also not like we could all just sell our phones tomorrow and that would fix everything. Reed Richards might be a genius but he's still just one guy, and not a particularly make-friends-and-influence-people type of guy either. Flying cars and dimension-hopping pods sound great but how would you leverage them into a radically new global economy where the incentives to exploit others are gone? If technological advances alone were enough, we'd already have Utopia in the real world.
And another thing. You know who's smarter than Richards and is sometimes seen using those smarts to improve the lives of the masses? That's right, Doctor Doom. But he's pretty much invariably shown doing it by brutal repression of any social phenomenon he doesn't like, not just by setting up public cornucopia. That's the implicit critique of "If Reed Richards is so smart, why ain't we rich?" in my opinion.
posted by No-sword at 4:48 AM on August 7, 2015 [5 favorites]
And another thing. You know who's smarter than Richards and is sometimes seen using those smarts to improve the lives of the masses? That's right, Doctor Doom. But he's pretty much invariably shown doing it by brutal repression of any social phenomenon he doesn't like, not just by setting up public cornucopia. That's the implicit critique of "If Reed Richards is so smart, why ain't we rich?" in my opinion.
posted by No-sword at 4:48 AM on August 7, 2015 [5 favorites]
Ah, beaten to it by a fish. Doom will unleash some wrathful toots tonight, let Doom tell you.
posted by No-sword at 4:49 AM on August 7, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by No-sword at 4:49 AM on August 7, 2015 [2 favorites]
Oh, the sweet deliciousness of this movie bombing. Please, please, PLEASE let it be the nail in this franchise's coffin. Maybe, just maybe, Hollywood will pause and decide they should add something new to the genre, rather than mining ideas from 50 years ago.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 5:22 AM on August 7, 2015
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 5:22 AM on August 7, 2015
Is it a rights issue that they haven't touched Galactus? Because that's the obvious Fantastic Four movie: what is more amenable to the blockbuster format than a giant god-like creature whose goal is to destroy Earth, not out of malevolence but because it is on a different level than we are? And is defeated by sheer audacity?
It's a shame that they screwed it up, just like it's a shame that the third X-Men movie managed to botch the Dark Phoenix saga. Marvel has put out stories that would translate well as summer films but the Fox movies just can't do any of it justice.
posted by graymouser at 5:34 AM on August 7, 2015
It's a shame that they screwed it up, just like it's a shame that the third X-Men movie managed to botch the Dark Phoenix saga. Marvel has put out stories that would translate well as summer films but the Fox movies just can't do any of it justice.
posted by graymouser at 5:34 AM on August 7, 2015
The second movie in their first try at FF was "Rise of the Silver Surfer," in which Galactus was a big amorphous space cloud. Because a giant guy in a purple hat would have been silly, unlike a cosmic-powered silver guy on a space surfboard, or a wisecracking rock monster, or a dude who can fly around because he's on fire.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 5:43 AM on August 7, 2015 [8 favorites]
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 5:43 AM on August 7, 2015 [8 favorites]
I know Hollywood is bankrupt of ideas, but remaking literally the same movies within a decade is absurd.
Yeah, nothing good ever comes of that.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 5:43 AM on August 7, 2015 [2 favorites]
Yeah, nothing good ever comes of that.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 5:43 AM on August 7, 2015 [2 favorites]
Is it a rights issue that they haven't touched Galactus?
Movies with big purple guys don't sell.
posted by Artw at 5:46 AM on August 7, 2015 [4 favorites]
Movies with big purple guys don't sell.
posted by Artw at 5:46 AM on August 7, 2015 [4 favorites]
They sold Guardians of the Galaxy. They could sell Galactus with a Jack Kirby helmet.
posted by graymouser at 6:06 AM on August 7, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by graymouser at 6:06 AM on August 7, 2015 [2 favorites]
No, no, no... You can have a cloud instead, or some space bees.
posted by Artw at 6:08 AM on August 7, 2015
posted by Artw at 6:08 AM on August 7, 2015
What if Galactus was composed of space bees? Who have secretly been destroying Earth by causing all the problems Earth bees have been having. Because Earth bees rejected Space bees long ago after a brief affair and Space Bees haven't never gotten over that.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:11 AM on August 7, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:11 AM on August 7, 2015 [2 favorites]
And before anyone says "That was Marvel, FF is Fox," remember, Fox is putting this on screen next year. And her.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 6:11 AM on August 7, 2015 [1 favorite]
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posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 6:11 AM on August 7, 2015 [1 favorite]
What if Galactus was composed of space bees?
In a way this was Warren Ellis's Ultimate Marvel approach to Galactus.
posted by Sangermaine at 6:15 AM on August 7, 2015 [1 favorite]
In a way this was Warren Ellis's Ultimate Marvel approach to Galactus.
posted by Sangermaine at 6:15 AM on August 7, 2015 [1 favorite]
Dressing Oscar Isaacs up as a novelty sex toy for Apocalypse has not been entirely uncontroversial amongst fandom. About the best anyone is saying about it is that it might look better on screen.
posted by Artw at 6:17 AM on August 7, 2015
posted by Artw at 6:17 AM on August 7, 2015
Also:
Hope and adventure, that's the Fantastic Four. If you turn your back on that, you turn your back on the best part of life.
GhostintheMachine
No, all hope lies in Doom.
But seriously, one of the things that made the Hickman run so great was that it was built on GhostintheMachine's thesis: what makes the FF great, what keeps Reed on the right path, is family.
posted by Sangermaine at 6:24 AM on August 7, 2015 [2 favorites]
Hope and adventure, that's the Fantastic Four. If you turn your back on that, you turn your back on the best part of life.
GhostintheMachine
No, all hope lies in Doom.
But seriously, one of the things that made the Hickman run so great was that it was built on GhostintheMachine's thesis: what makes the FF great, what keeps Reed on the right path, is family.
posted by Sangermaine at 6:24 AM on August 7, 2015 [2 favorites]
Dressing Oscar Isaacs up as a novelty sex toy for Apocalypse has not been entirely uncontroversial amongst fandom. About the best anyone is saying about it is that it might look better on screen.
Well, yeah, but you can't argue that it's a conservative design ethic.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 6:29 AM on August 7, 2015
Well, yeah, but you can't argue that it's a conservative design ethic.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 6:29 AM on August 7, 2015
Disney should just merge . . .
I've been calling on the Disney Corp to go merge itself since the 1960s.
Wyatt Wingfoot. Namor.
Say . . . have you ever seen them in the room at the same time? Could it be? Naa. . . .
a giant guy in a purple hat would have been silly
A giant guy in a purple hat is silly. Even sillier is a giant guy in a purple hat from before the Big Bang who wears a giant t-shirt with a giant "G" for Galactus on it**. It totally worked in a comic book, though.
I honestly think FF would work better as a TV series than a movie franchise
I honestly think all of these Marvel superheroes work best as 1960s comic books and should have been left that way. They work(ed) great as 1960s comics, especially while it was still the 1960s. Later, and in the movies, not at all.
Two things happen when they make superhero comics into movies.
First, the plotting and story telling are exposed for the comic-book* level work it is. Stan Lee was/is a fantastic comic book writer. Amazing. Uncanny. Incredible. Without fear. Journey into mystery with. But on-screen, this stuff just looks and sounds -- kinda dumb.
Second, comic books are the perfect way to show the kind of action that occurs in superhero stories. Because of how much is left to the imagination. Movies are not.
Between 1965 and (let's say) 1975, I could completely believe in a Wasp, a Hawkeye, a Captain America fighting on the same team as a Thor, an Ironman, or a Hulk, etc. and not just being rubbed out in the first five minutes of their first fight against a super-powered villian. In a live action movie it just looks ludicrous.
Lee, Kirby, Ditko, et al often included a kind of greek chorus of bystanders reacting to the action, and it was great stuff in the comics. Superhero movie provide us with the 'great special effects' post-Star Wars movie-goers demand -- explosions, massive fast moving objects close to the ground, unfathomable cosmic forces unleashed -- that would clearly have caused mass casualties in the hundreds or thousands in real life. In the movies, you wouldn't want to be standing close enough to the Fantastic Four to have any idea what they were up to.
The first Christopher Reeve Superman movie and the first couple Toby McGuire Spiderman movies came closest to showing something that I could believe could actually happen, given the requisite suspension of disbelieve to accept the notion of super powered humans. The others I've seen just seem an exhausting assault on the senses.
I loved the Fantastic Four comics, in their milieu. I will not be going to see this movie. Not because Johnny Storm is black, or because Sue Storm doesn't get enough lines, or because Ben Grimm doesn't wear clothes as the Thing. I just don't think comic book super heroes belong in the movies.
----------------------------
*Yeah, I know, 'graphic novel'. Don't even try. We're talking about Stan Lee and Co. here.
*Yeah, I know, they later dropped the "G".
posted by Herodios at 6:41 AM on August 7, 2015 [1 favorite]
I've been calling on the Disney Corp to go merge itself since the 1960s.
Wyatt Wingfoot. Namor.
Say . . . have you ever seen them in the room at the same time? Could it be? Naa. . . .
a giant guy in a purple hat would have been silly
A giant guy in a purple hat is silly. Even sillier is a giant guy in a purple hat from before the Big Bang who wears a giant t-shirt with a giant "G" for Galactus on it**. It totally worked in a comic book, though.
I honestly think FF would work better as a TV series than a movie franchise
I honestly think all of these Marvel superheroes work best as 1960s comic books and should have been left that way. They work(ed) great as 1960s comics, especially while it was still the 1960s. Later, and in the movies, not at all.
Two things happen when they make superhero comics into movies.
First, the plotting and story telling are exposed for the comic-book* level work it is. Stan Lee was/is a fantastic comic book writer. Amazing. Uncanny. Incredible. Without fear. Journey into mystery with. But on-screen, this stuff just looks and sounds -- kinda dumb.
Second, comic books are the perfect way to show the kind of action that occurs in superhero stories. Because of how much is left to the imagination. Movies are not.
Between 1965 and (let's say) 1975, I could completely believe in a Wasp, a Hawkeye, a Captain America fighting on the same team as a Thor, an Ironman, or a Hulk, etc. and not just being rubbed out in the first five minutes of their first fight against a super-powered villian. In a live action movie it just looks ludicrous.
Lee, Kirby, Ditko, et al often included a kind of greek chorus of bystanders reacting to the action, and it was great stuff in the comics. Superhero movie provide us with the 'great special effects' post-Star Wars movie-goers demand -- explosions, massive fast moving objects close to the ground, unfathomable cosmic forces unleashed -- that would clearly have caused mass casualties in the hundreds or thousands in real life. In the movies, you wouldn't want to be standing close enough to the Fantastic Four to have any idea what they were up to.
The first Christopher Reeve Superman movie and the first couple Toby McGuire Spiderman movies came closest to showing something that I could believe could actually happen, given the requisite suspension of disbelieve to accept the notion of super powered humans. The others I've seen just seem an exhausting assault on the senses.
I loved the Fantastic Four comics, in their milieu. I will not be going to see this movie. Not because Johnny Storm is black, or because Sue Storm doesn't get enough lines, or because Ben Grimm doesn't wear clothes as the Thing. I just don't think comic book super heroes belong in the movies.
----------------------------
*Yeah, I know, 'graphic novel'. Don't even try. We're talking about Stan Lee and Co. here.
*Yeah, I know, they later dropped the "G".
posted by Herodios at 6:41 AM on August 7, 2015 [1 favorite]
Herodios:
I honestly think all of these Marvel superheroes work best as 1960s comic books and should have been left that way. They work(ed) great as 1960s comics, especially while it was still the 1960s. Later, and in the movies, not at all.
Come on, this is just ax grinding. You're stating your personal opinion as objective fact. The movies have made a bajillion dollars and are the dominant film properties right now. I'm not saying they're all great, but it's simply silly to say they're not working. Clearly they're working for many, many people, and not just financially but critically.
Second, comic books are the perfect way to show the kind of action that occurs in superhero stories. Because of how much is left to the imagination. Movies are not.
This has long been Alan Moore's line with regard to adapting his works: he wrote them for the comic book medium, not film, and they are very different things.
In fact your whole post reads like something Moore would write. Are you Alan Moore? Because if so I love you, haters be damned.
posted by Sangermaine at 6:52 AM on August 7, 2015 [5 favorites]
I honestly think all of these Marvel superheroes work best as 1960s comic books and should have been left that way. They work(ed) great as 1960s comics, especially while it was still the 1960s. Later, and in the movies, not at all.
Come on, this is just ax grinding. You're stating your personal opinion as objective fact. The movies have made a bajillion dollars and are the dominant film properties right now. I'm not saying they're all great, but it's simply silly to say they're not working. Clearly they're working for many, many people, and not just financially but critically.
Second, comic books are the perfect way to show the kind of action that occurs in superhero stories. Because of how much is left to the imagination. Movies are not.
This has long been Alan Moore's line with regard to adapting his works: he wrote them for the comic book medium, not film, and they are very different things.
In fact your whole post reads like something Moore would write. Are you Alan Moore? Because if so I love you, haters be damned.
posted by Sangermaine at 6:52 AM on August 7, 2015 [5 favorites]
what makes the FF great, what keeps Reed on the right path, is family
It's an entertaining fact of life that compared to the rest of the multiverse, the classic Marvel-616 universe is the Bizarro World in which Reed Richards is a (usually) good guy. In basically every alternate universe or timeline in which Sue and Reed don't end up together or Sue and the kids die, Reed immediately goes full-on evil genocidal mad scientist supervillain.
In that vein, if Fox insists on pushing ahead with its grimdark FF reboot, I would kinda love to see them adapt the grimdark yet goofy Marvel Zombies storyline. Marvel Zombies started in Ultimate FF, and it was all Evil Reed's fault!
posted by nicebookrack at 6:54 AM on August 7, 2015 [1 favorite]
It's an entertaining fact of life that compared to the rest of the multiverse, the classic Marvel-616 universe is the Bizarro World in which Reed Richards is a (usually) good guy. In basically every alternate universe or timeline in which Sue and Reed don't end up together or Sue and the kids die, Reed immediately goes full-on evil genocidal mad scientist supervillain.
In that vein, if Fox insists on pushing ahead with its grimdark FF reboot, I would kinda love to see them adapt the grimdark yet goofy Marvel Zombies storyline. Marvel Zombies started in Ultimate FF, and it was all Evil Reed's fault!
posted by nicebookrack at 6:54 AM on August 7, 2015 [1 favorite]
Grant Morrison's 4-issue mini-series Fantastic Four: 1234, with wonderful art by Jae Lee, is maybe my fave distillation of what makes the group so good. I'm sad to see so many folks using the awful, rights-placeholding movies as an excuse to dismiss the group, because at its best FF is at least as good a superhero comic as anything the Hulk, Thor or Iron Man comics have ever done. Hope and adventure (and basic human family bitchiness) indeed.
posted by mediareport at 6:54 AM on August 7, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by mediareport at 6:54 AM on August 7, 2015 [4 favorites]
Sweet Aunt Petunia, I just read what 'Clobbering Time' is in the FF movie. Who the hell wrote this...?
posted by MattWPBS at 6:56 AM on August 7, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by MattWPBS at 6:56 AM on August 7, 2015 [2 favorites]
In a very loopy, indirect way, this post makes me sad again that Mike Wieringo is dead... The FF run he did with Waid is maybe my favorite stretch of any comic. Balls to this grimdark cinema shit.
posted by the phlegmatic king at 7:27 AM on August 7, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by the phlegmatic king at 7:27 AM on August 7, 2015 [1 favorite]
what makes the FF great, what keeps Reed on the right path, is family
That's an interesting dynamic, but that puts all the focus on Reed, the older white male, which has been done to death. At this point, the only thing that could make me excited about an FF film is if Sue is the leader or genderswapping her and reed. Miss Fantastic has a nice ring to it.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:51 AM on August 7, 2015
That's an interesting dynamic, but that puts all the focus on Reed, the older white male, which has been done to death. At this point, the only thing that could make me excited about an FF film is if Sue is the leader or genderswapping her and reed. Miss Fantastic has a nice ring to it.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:51 AM on August 7, 2015
In a proper adaptation Sue would be the leader. She's the most dangerous member of the team by far (and this is compared to somebody who can turn into a high-yield nuclear bomb) and the best at getting important shit done. Reed's the high-minded supergenius but if he gets to do whatever he wants and the rest of the FF just follows, bad shit consistently results.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 8:04 AM on August 7, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 8:04 AM on August 7, 2015 [4 favorites]
Oooh, I like the idea of Reed having a dark side he has to struggle with and Doom being a harsh, but fair egalitarian who really does want the best for humanity, but thinks brutal methods are the way to go. Sue as the level headed one works great, but it sounds like she's babying Reed in a way, so nuts to that. Reed should be an adult, one who recognizes his weakness and is checking in with the others to keep himself in check. That's what friends are for.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 8:16 AM on August 7, 2015
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 8:16 AM on August 7, 2015
Brandon Blatcher,
You might like the Ultimate Fantastic Four, then, which the movie is based on but butchers. In the Ultimate world, Sue is also a genius scientist and ultimately rejects the egotistical and obsessive Reed, who becomes a major villain.
The first three collected volumes are really good (#1-18), but the next few by Mike Carey are unfortunately terrible. The Ultimate Comics: Doomsday set of limited series where Ultimate Reed goes bad (Ultimate Enemy, Ultimate Mystery and Ultimate Doom) are great too.
posted by Sangermaine at 8:16 AM on August 7, 2015 [1 favorite]
You might like the Ultimate Fantastic Four, then, which the movie is based on but butchers. In the Ultimate world, Sue is also a genius scientist and ultimately rejects the egotistical and obsessive Reed, who becomes a major villain.
The first three collected volumes are really good (#1-18), but the next few by Mike Carey are unfortunately terrible. The Ultimate Comics: Doomsday set of limited series where Ultimate Reed goes bad (Ultimate Enemy, Ultimate Mystery and Ultimate Doom) are great too.
posted by Sangermaine at 8:16 AM on August 7, 2015 [1 favorite]
Not quite sure why Carey was so wobbly on it, he's usually pretty good.
posted by Artw at 8:21 AM on August 7, 2015
posted by Artw at 8:21 AM on August 7, 2015
Doom being a harsh, but fair egalitarian who really does want the best for humanity, but thinks brutal methods are the way to go.
Confirmed by Bast, Panther God of Wakanda and Black Panther's patron deity.
posted by Sangermaine at 8:21 AM on August 7, 2015
Confirmed by Bast, Panther God of Wakanda and Black Panther's patron deity.
posted by Sangermaine at 8:21 AM on August 7, 2015
In the Ultimate world, Sue is also a genius scientist and ultimately rejects the egotistical and obsessive Reed, who becomes a major villain.
Am I remembering it right , though, that also in the Ultimate world, they're all eventually drawn by Greg Land and Johnny somehow looks like the dude from The Blue Lagoon?
posted by the phlegmatic king at 8:25 AM on August 7, 2015
Am I remembering it right , though, that also in the Ultimate world, they're all eventually drawn by Greg Land and Johnny somehow looks like the dude from The Blue Lagoon?
posted by the phlegmatic king at 8:25 AM on August 7, 2015
Yeah...that was during the Carey run when the book went off the rails. Unfortunately the whole Ultimate line largely fell apart after a while. But as someone above said, a book is only as good as its creators. Having some bad writers or artists work on a book doesn't mean the underlying characters and concepts are destroyed.
posted by Sangermaine at 8:28 AM on August 7, 2015
posted by Sangermaine at 8:28 AM on August 7, 2015
A few years ago, Marvel did a series called "4" in the Marvel Knights line. It was a Fantastic Four series, and started with the FF getting all their money embezzled, having to move out of the Baxter Building, and get actual jobs. Reed got a temp job doing tech support for a law form, Sue was a substitute teacher, Ben went into construction, and Johnny... used a little-known bit of the NYFD code to become a fireman, arguing that his invulnerability to fire, ability to see and breathe in smoky conditions, fly, and actually absorb fire would be useful talents.
We also got to see some brilliant, incredible stories: a Psycho-Man who was terrifying; the Puppet Master's madness going farther than it was before; Namor being a complete dick and then being incredibly compassionate; the return of Salem's Seven in a way that made them both a threat and far less lame. We got to see Sue using her brains in a way that showed that she may not be the supergenius that Reed is but has a greater grasp of tactical matters. A story was told as to why some heroes don't get involved in what some things, in a domestic violence story.
And yes, at the end, the status quo returned. But that last issue, where it does, had a great moment in it as well: Reed in his isolation "think tank", pondering, as Namor arrives:
I.P. 1: Sue in a white dress, running with Namor at the beach, hand in hand; Reed grunts unhappily
I.P. 2: Namor holds Sue in his traditional "kidnapping Sue" pose. Reed grunts even more unhappily.
I.P. 3: As Reed and Sue embrace, Namor gets beaten up by the Red Ghost and his Super-Apes. Reed smiles.
And the last pages are Reed pondering what would have happened if, instead, he'd held off a few days and they went for a picnic instead.
It was a great book - a couple of clunker issues, but other than Hawkguy, what comic didn't? - and it really was a great piece of work. This piece was used as one of the covers. While it does the boobs-n-butt pose, the line of bullets is a show of Sue's powers, and I do enjoy it.
posted by mephron at 8:31 AM on August 7, 2015 [2 favorites]
We also got to see some brilliant, incredible stories: a Psycho-Man who was terrifying; the Puppet Master's madness going farther than it was before; Namor being a complete dick and then being incredibly compassionate; the return of Salem's Seven in a way that made them both a threat and far less lame. We got to see Sue using her brains in a way that showed that she may not be the supergenius that Reed is but has a greater grasp of tactical matters. A story was told as to why some heroes don't get involved in what some things, in a domestic violence story.
And yes, at the end, the status quo returned. But that last issue, where it does, had a great moment in it as well: Reed in his isolation "think tank", pondering, as Namor arrives:
I.P. 1: Sue in a white dress, running with Namor at the beach, hand in hand; Reed grunts unhappily
I.P. 2: Namor holds Sue in his traditional "kidnapping Sue" pose. Reed grunts even more unhappily.
I.P. 3: As Reed and Sue embrace, Namor gets beaten up by the Red Ghost and his Super-Apes. Reed smiles.
And the last pages are Reed pondering what would have happened if, instead, he'd held off a few days and they went for a picnic instead.
It was a great book - a couple of clunker issues, but other than Hawkguy, what comic didn't? - and it really was a great piece of work. This piece was used as one of the covers. While it does the boobs-n-butt pose, the line of bullets is a show of Sue's powers, and I do enjoy it.
posted by mephron at 8:31 AM on August 7, 2015 [2 favorites]
Superhero movies and television shows tend to hew to the Law of Conservation of Weirdness. The number of deviations from the Real World are kept to a minimum. If there are superhumans, for example, they usually all derive from the same source. That same source may also be the big hoohar over which the superhumans come into conflict. Also, you can get the heroes and villains inextricably linked, which is good for, uh, reasons.
For the FF, that law must be broken. And you could totally make it work.
Imagine if the setup is that super-weirdness is exploding all over the world, courtesy of recent breakthroughs in science. Giant monsters from deep within the Earth are accidentally awakened; portals to a strange anti-matter dimension are created; an undersea civilization of blue humanoids is discovered; and so forth. The world is suddenly much, much bigger than ever before. One of the towering geniuses of the age, Reed Richards, and his team try to explore a part of it and blammo, superpowers. That's the backstory, dispensed in the credits.
Start the movie off with the FF fighting a giant monster that burst from the ground in midtown. This, the movie explains, is the kind of ride you're in for.
The rest of the movie is about exploration, fighting Doom to stop him from making a giant mistake that will annihilate all life on the planet through carelessness (as in college, the man does not check his math), and Johnny busting Ben's balls. Big four-color action. Reed's out to solve everything, and Doom is a reminder of why he can't. Sue is the one who can implement the crazy plans of Reed, because she's the only one who can remotely grasp his ideas and yet also function in the real world. Johnny is the hot-shit guy who digs it and is along for the ride.
And Ben, Ben is the audience surrogate. We see the whole story mostly from Ben's perspective. He's the one who appreciates how weird everything is, he's the one who has strong misgivings about this Brave New World, he's the one who doesn't get what the hell is going on in the macro sense but understands the micro. He doesn't know why the Negative Zone will split the Earth in half, but he knows that punching out the guy who will release the N-Zone onto Earth is a good idea. By the end, Ben is fully on board with the World of Tomorrow the FF represents. He wishes to be human again, of course, but not at the cost of taking the Thing away from the world. He also pays back Johnny for all the annoying pranks. Oh yeah.
posted by Harvey Jerkwater at 8:31 AM on August 7, 2015 [8 favorites]
For the FF, that law must be broken. And you could totally make it work.
Imagine if the setup is that super-weirdness is exploding all over the world, courtesy of recent breakthroughs in science. Giant monsters from deep within the Earth are accidentally awakened; portals to a strange anti-matter dimension are created; an undersea civilization of blue humanoids is discovered; and so forth. The world is suddenly much, much bigger than ever before. One of the towering geniuses of the age, Reed Richards, and his team try to explore a part of it and blammo, superpowers. That's the backstory, dispensed in the credits.
Start the movie off with the FF fighting a giant monster that burst from the ground in midtown. This, the movie explains, is the kind of ride you're in for.
The rest of the movie is about exploration, fighting Doom to stop him from making a giant mistake that will annihilate all life on the planet through carelessness (as in college, the man does not check his math), and Johnny busting Ben's balls. Big four-color action. Reed's out to solve everything, and Doom is a reminder of why he can't. Sue is the one who can implement the crazy plans of Reed, because she's the only one who can remotely grasp his ideas and yet also function in the real world. Johnny is the hot-shit guy who digs it and is along for the ride.
And Ben, Ben is the audience surrogate. We see the whole story mostly from Ben's perspective. He's the one who appreciates how weird everything is, he's the one who has strong misgivings about this Brave New World, he's the one who doesn't get what the hell is going on in the macro sense but understands the micro. He doesn't know why the Negative Zone will split the Earth in half, but he knows that punching out the guy who will release the N-Zone onto Earth is a good idea. By the end, Ben is fully on board with the World of Tomorrow the FF represents. He wishes to be human again, of course, but not at the cost of taking the Thing away from the world. He also pays back Johnny for all the annoying pranks. Oh yeah.
posted by Harvey Jerkwater at 8:31 AM on August 7, 2015 [8 favorites]
Superhero movies and television shows tend to hew to the Law of Conservation of Weirdness.
I'd argue that an ability to clomp over this by a process of steady addition is one of the core benefits of the MCU's shared universe.
posted by Artw at 8:35 AM on August 7, 2015 [3 favorites]
I'd argue that an ability to clomp over this by a process of steady addition is one of the core benefits of the MCU's shared universe.
posted by Artw at 8:35 AM on August 7, 2015 [3 favorites]
I honestly think FF would work better as a TV series than a movie franchise.
Just raid the mad men prop closet and give me the live action, utterly uncynical Silver Age show I crave.
posted by The Whelk at 9:19 AM on August 7, 2015 [9 favorites]
Just raid the mad men prop closet and give me the live action, utterly uncynical Silver Age show I crave.
posted by The Whelk at 9:19 AM on August 7, 2015 [9 favorites]
Josh Trank - 'a year ago I had a fantastic version'
posted by brilliantmistake at 9:27 AM on August 7, 2015
posted by brilliantmistake at 9:27 AM on August 7, 2015
Artw: this is weirdly one of things that made Ultron fall kinda flat for me. The MCU firmly established in the first Iron Man movie that Tony Stark had already created a friendly artificial intelligence with personality, his friend JARVIS*, and this is treated as no big deal for 4+ movies. By the time we got to Ultron, "Stark creates A.I. = instant death robot" just doesn't fly, and the Vision comes off as "TL;DR JARVIS finally gets a body."
* We could argue at derailing length without resolution over whether JARVIS counts as a "real" A.I. But in story terms, other characters and the narrative itself treat JARVIS as a character/person, with implied sentience.
posted by nicebookrack at 9:33 AM on August 7, 2015 [1 favorite]
* We could argue at derailing length without resolution over whether JARVIS counts as a "real" A.I. But in story terms, other characters and the narrative itself treat JARVIS as a character/person, with implied sentience.
posted by nicebookrack at 9:33 AM on August 7, 2015 [1 favorite]
I've not seen Ultron but from the sound of things it represents the first real failure of the MCU model, in part due to one of the issues inherent in comic book shared universes: Continuity.
posted by Artw at 9:40 AM on August 7, 2015
posted by Artw at 9:40 AM on August 7, 2015
raid the mad men prop closet
The success of Agent Carter and the Ant-Man reveal that SHIELD was involved in secret superhero hijinks by at least the Cold War makes me hope so much for more vintage Marvel stories in the intervening decades. Who's to say the Fantastic 4 wasn't a heavily classified supergroup back in the day?
posted by nicebookrack at 9:41 AM on August 7, 2015 [1 favorite]
The success of Agent Carter and the Ant-Man reveal that SHIELD was involved in secret superhero hijinks by at least the Cold War makes me hope so much for more vintage Marvel stories in the intervening decades. Who's to say the Fantastic 4 wasn't a heavily classified supergroup back in the day?
posted by nicebookrack at 9:41 AM on August 7, 2015 [1 favorite]
Just raid the mad men prop closet and give me the live action, utterly uncynical Silver Age show I crave.
Actually, the MCU has shown that a period piece works well for superheroes with Cap. We'll know how psychedelic the genre can get after Dr. Strange. If it can get ... weird ... and still make money, a 1960's based 'Mad Men of Science: Fantastic Four' thing would go over like gangbusters, and allow a twenty-year bridge after Cap/Agent Carter (to tentpole even more of the MCU).
On preview: D'oh. Jinx by about four posts. Apparently this is obvious to alot of people.
posted by eclectist at 9:42 AM on August 7, 2015 [1 favorite]
Actually, the MCU has shown that a period piece works well for superheroes with Cap. We'll know how psychedelic the genre can get after Dr. Strange. If it can get ... weird ... and still make money, a 1960's based 'Mad Men of Science: Fantastic Four' thing would go over like gangbusters, and allow a twenty-year bridge after Cap/Agent Carter (to tentpole even more of the MCU).
On preview: D'oh. Jinx by about four posts. Apparently this is obvious to alot of people.
posted by eclectist at 9:42 AM on August 7, 2015 [1 favorite]
Doom being a harsh, but fair egalitarian who really does want the best for humanity, but thinks brutal methods are the way to go.
Confirmed by Bast, Panther God of Wakanda and Black Panther's patron deity.
It's such a great motivation for a villain - it's not that he believes the world is better off under his rule, but he knows for a fact that his brutal dictatorship is the only way for humanity to survive. And really they should run all the way with this - make it explicit that this is not just Doom's interpretation of facts, it's not that he's overlooked other possible futures, he's not suffering delusions of grandeur, it's just true that the world will die unless Doom dominates it, and anyone who has the technology or magic to see potential futures for themselves and double check his work can see it. That's like the freedom vs. security metaphor of Civil War but cranked up to 11 and way more tonally fitting with the Marvel Universe. And, as his main opposition, it puts Reed Richards on the right side of this fight instead of that awful Civil War characterization. Reed Richards isn't about pragmatically finding a harsh but necessary solution to a problem, he's about striving for something better even against impossible odds.
posted by jason_steakums at 9:44 AM on August 7, 2015 [6 favorites]
Confirmed by Bast, Panther God of Wakanda and Black Panther's patron deity.
It's such a great motivation for a villain - it's not that he believes the world is better off under his rule, but he knows for a fact that his brutal dictatorship is the only way for humanity to survive. And really they should run all the way with this - make it explicit that this is not just Doom's interpretation of facts, it's not that he's overlooked other possible futures, he's not suffering delusions of grandeur, it's just true that the world will die unless Doom dominates it, and anyone who has the technology or magic to see potential futures for themselves and double check his work can see it. That's like the freedom vs. security metaphor of Civil War but cranked up to 11 and way more tonally fitting with the Marvel Universe. And, as his main opposition, it puts Reed Richards on the right side of this fight instead of that awful Civil War characterization. Reed Richards isn't about pragmatically finding a harsh but necessary solution to a problem, he's about striving for something better even against impossible odds.
posted by jason_steakums at 9:44 AM on August 7, 2015 [6 favorites]
I've not seen Ultron but from the sound of things it represents the first real failure of the MCU model, in part due to one of the issues inherent in comic book shared universes: Continuity.
I wouldn't say it was continuity that hurt it. It was just bloated and uneven. I'm not really a fan of Whedon, but there have been many reports that the studio meddled heavily with his work that movie.
posted by Sangermaine at 9:48 AM on August 7, 2015
I wouldn't say it was continuity that hurt it. It was just bloated and uneven. I'm not really a fan of Whedon, but there have been many reports that the studio meddled heavily with his work that movie.
posted by Sangermaine at 9:48 AM on August 7, 2015
Artw, it might be a continuity problem with Ultron the robot, but emotionally it felt more like a failure of that clomping over the Law of Conservation of Weirdness. This shared universe already asked me to suspend disbelief about friendly robots 9+ movies ago; why am I suddenly supposed to think it's a Big Deal now?
posted by nicebookrack at 9:50 AM on August 7, 2015
posted by nicebookrack at 9:50 AM on August 7, 2015
I've heard it completely ignores Iron Man 3, as well as having acplotvdine to death in Marvel movies (Tony creates something then has to destroy it) and characters that are off from the other movies. As a standalone all of these would matter less.
posted by Artw at 9:52 AM on August 7, 2015
posted by Artw at 9:52 AM on August 7, 2015
aaaaagh jason_steakums you are making me mourn for the Doom Civil War that shall never be!
posted by nicebookrack at 9:55 AM on August 7, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by nicebookrack at 9:55 AM on August 7, 2015 [1 favorite]
The best part of a Doom Civil War is that instead of mostly arbitrarily assigning characters to each side and making these former good guys do heel turns for no particular character-based reasons, anyone who lines up with Doom has a VERY good excuse in that literally everyone on Earth will die a horrible death if they don't. Doom's got one hell of a compelling pitch to go out recruiting with.
Also I really would want a Doom Civil War to be super silver agey, like it starts with Doom putting giant time platforms under the United Nations building, the Baxter Building and Avengers Mansion to prove his findings to the world by taking their UN reps and heroes on a trip through potential futures, so the world will formally submit to Doom once they see he's right. Doom's been slacking in the "disappearing NYC landmarks" department lately and it's a classic Doom move. Maybe you've got Kang, Immortus and Nathaniel Richards there for expert testimony, and of course Reed is called in front of the UN and is forced to admit publicly that Doom's work checks out and he really does appear to be correct.
posted by jason_steakums at 10:17 AM on August 7, 2015
Also I really would want a Doom Civil War to be super silver agey, like it starts with Doom putting giant time platforms under the United Nations building, the Baxter Building and Avengers Mansion to prove his findings to the world by taking their UN reps and heroes on a trip through potential futures, so the world will formally submit to Doom once they see he's right. Doom's been slacking in the "disappearing NYC landmarks" department lately and it's a classic Doom move. Maybe you've got Kang, Immortus and Nathaniel Richards there for expert testimony, and of course Reed is called in front of the UN and is forced to admit publicly that Doom's work checks out and he really does appear to be correct.
posted by jason_steakums at 10:17 AM on August 7, 2015
"Stark creates A.I. = instant death robot" just doesn't fly, and the Vision comes off as "TL;DR JARVIS finally gets a body."
I thought Ultron and SentientJarvis came about from Stark and Banner poking around with the scepter/mind gem?
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 10:25 AM on August 7, 2015
I thought Ultron and SentientJarvis came about from Stark and Banner poking around with the scepter/mind gem?
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 10:25 AM on August 7, 2015
It did, but the idea that JARVIS wasn't already sentient just doesn't hold up when you look at how they've dealt with him since the first half-hour of the MCU. You can say his consciousness was vastly expanded by the Mind Gem and that could work, but they didn't -- and it wouldn't explain what was stopping them from making Ultron.
(The MCU's first failure was Iron Man 2 anyway)
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 10:32 AM on August 7, 2015
(The MCU's first failure was Iron Man 2 anyway)
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 10:32 AM on August 7, 2015
Sing Or Swim: "Really interesting, varied powers, a weird blend of science fiction and superheroing, a love triangle with Namor, some of the best villains in comics... yeah, the FF suck. Meanwhile people are peeing themselves like puppies over Deadpool, a two-bit Wolverine knockoff with a mouth like Spiderman if Spiderman was mean instead of funny."
Pistols at dawn.
posted by Splunge at 11:06 AM on August 7, 2015 [1 favorite]
Pistols at dawn.
posted by Splunge at 11:06 AM on August 7, 2015 [1 favorite]
Doom being a harsh, but fair egalitarian who really does want the best for humanity, but thinks brutal methods are the way to go.
Or, better still, Doom is a megalomaniac, a psychopath, a greedy, vain, pompous bastard of the first water, who wouldn't know "fair" or "egalitarian" if it bit him on the ass...but he may also be right in the long run.
He's not "tough but fair." He's evil. Delusional scum. And he's wrong about everything.
Except for one thing.
(Or not. Doom looked into thousands of futures? Only thousands? Yeah, no risk of confirmation bias there. How many hundreds of thousands of futures did he choose not to see? Bast claims she saw a million. That's only a fraction of the possibilities...)
posted by Harvey Jerkwater at 11:08 AM on August 7, 2015 [1 favorite]
Or, better still, Doom is a megalomaniac, a psychopath, a greedy, vain, pompous bastard of the first water, who wouldn't know "fair" or "egalitarian" if it bit him on the ass...but he may also be right in the long run.
He's not "tough but fair." He's evil. Delusional scum. And he's wrong about everything.
Except for one thing.
(Or not. Doom looked into thousands of futures? Only thousands? Yeah, no risk of confirmation bias there. How many hundreds of thousands of futures did he choose not to see? Bast claims she saw a million. That's only a fraction of the possibilities...)
posted by Harvey Jerkwater at 11:08 AM on August 7, 2015 [1 favorite]
It did, but the idea that JARVIS wasn't already sentient just doesn't hold up when you look at how they've dealt with him since the first half-hour of the MCU.
Huh. Oddly enough it works for me, I just fill in the gaps, there's enough groundwork laid.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 11:19 AM on August 7, 2015
Huh. Oddly enough it works for me, I just fill in the gaps, there's enough groundwork laid.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 11:19 AM on August 7, 2015
Or was it actually Jarvis and not something new that sort of had Jarvis's template/memories or something? TonyJarvis could work within certain parameters, but bodyJarvis could operate however he chooses. Thus those awkward few moments, then he decides to be a good guy.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 11:23 AM on August 7, 2015
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 11:23 AM on August 7, 2015
If they killed JARVIS to make JARVISion I will hold a grudge foreverrrrr
Also apparently in the FF movie Sue doesn't even go on the adventure trip?! She just gets hit with cosmic backwash when they return?! What is this foolishness?
Apparently my reaction to this movie is to repeat all of the plot points aloud with incredulous question marks?!
posted by nicebookrack at 11:35 AM on August 7, 2015 [1 favorite]
Also apparently in the FF movie Sue doesn't even go on the adventure trip?! She just gets hit with cosmic backwash when they return?! What is this foolishness?
Apparently my reaction to this movie is to repeat all of the plot points aloud with incredulous question marks?!
posted by nicebookrack at 11:35 AM on August 7, 2015 [1 favorite]
Also apparently in the FF movie Sue doesn't even go on the adventure trip?! She just gets hit with cosmic backwash when they return?!
Then there's No Pants Thing and "Clobberin' Time" was something his abusive brother said before kicking the snot out of him. Change can be good, but only if the change is good.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 11:39 AM on August 7, 2015
Then there's No Pants Thing and "Clobberin' Time" was something his abusive brother said before kicking the snot out of him. Change can be good, but only if the change is good.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 11:39 AM on August 7, 2015
(Or not. Doom looked into thousands of futures? Only thousands? Yeah, no risk of confirmation bias there. How many hundreds of thousands of futures did he choose not to see? Bast claims she saw a million. That's only a fraction of the possibilities...)
But! The new Secret Wars just shows that he was right. His path towards saving the world was the only path that succeeded in doing so. Every single other alternate reality died, all of those alternate futures were winnowed down to a single timeline heading straight for oblivion and Doom's way was the only way. Doom's way being to adopt the guise of a god of cosmic annihilation to start up an interdimensional death cult that murdered entire realities, fight the indescribably powerful beings from beyond the multiverse that were the cause of the trouble, and become the ultimate dictator, the actual god of a world of his own making, naturally.
He's got a bit of a blind spot for what happens after he saves the world, but he was 100% right that he needed to be the one to do it.
posted by jason_steakums at 11:39 AM on August 7, 2015
But! The new Secret Wars just shows that he was right. His path towards saving the world was the only path that succeeded in doing so. Every single other alternate reality died, all of those alternate futures were winnowed down to a single timeline heading straight for oblivion and Doom's way was the only way. Doom's way being to adopt the guise of a god of cosmic annihilation to start up an interdimensional death cult that murdered entire realities, fight the indescribably powerful beings from beyond the multiverse that were the cause of the trouble, and become the ultimate dictator, the actual god of a world of his own making, naturally.
He's got a bit of a blind spot for what happens after he saves the world, but he was 100% right that he needed to be the one to do it.
posted by jason_steakums at 11:39 AM on August 7, 2015
I've been avoiding the more plot-relevant books during Secret Wars until it's all over because mytharc gives me hives, but reading the random Battleworld pocket universes has been really entertaining with the theological shift toward random profanity using God-Emperor Doom, ruler of all. Praise Doom! Where the Doom is it? Doom damn it!
posted by nicebookrack at 11:53 AM on August 7, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by nicebookrack at 11:53 AM on August 7, 2015 [1 favorite]
Is a Doomworld a saved world? Or is Doom's blinds spot that becoming a Doomworld one of the horrible fates that can befall a world?
posted by Artw at 11:55 AM on August 7, 2015
posted by Artw at 11:55 AM on August 7, 2015
Nicebookrack - one of the worlds is basically Mega-City One, so Al Ewing has been having fun coming up with Battleworld equivalents for Drokk, Stomm, etc... Apparently Grudd is giving him trouble as it would basically be Doom.
posted by Artw at 11:58 AM on August 7, 2015
posted by Artw at 11:58 AM on August 7, 2015
I think the Panther God wasn't necessarily saying Doom was right in his belief. Remember, it was a test of purity of intention, not absolute truth. The Panther God was saying that Doom is sincere in his belief that he is acting for the benefit of humanity and not just selfish desires.
posted by Sangermaine at 12:00 PM on August 7, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by Sangermaine at 12:00 PM on August 7, 2015 [1 favorite]
He's not "tough but fair." He's evil. Delusional scum. And he's wrong about everything.
Go away Mark Waid, you never got Doom.
posted by Sangermaine at 12:02 PM on August 7, 2015 [1 favorite]
Go away Mark Waid, you never got Doom.
posted by Sangermaine at 12:02 PM on August 7, 2015 [1 favorite]
Maybe Panther God has Daredevil's problem of being unable to detect a falsehood if the person believes what they're saying.
posted by nicebookrack at 12:03 PM on August 7, 2015
posted by nicebookrack at 12:03 PM on August 7, 2015
I don't think it's a flaw, I think it's just the god's function. She's detecting purity of heart. If someone came in and said they wanted access to Wakanda's vibranium to help the world but they really just wanted it for themselves, they would die. Doom is sincere when he says he wants to rule the world to help it.
posted by Sangermaine at 12:09 PM on August 7, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by Sangermaine at 12:09 PM on August 7, 2015 [1 favorite]
It's also the sort of thing Lex Luthor says, but I suspect he's full of shit.
posted by Artw at 12:12 PM on August 7, 2015
posted by Artw at 12:12 PM on August 7, 2015
"The world is a mess and I just need to rule it."
posted by nicebookrack at 12:14 PM on August 7, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by nicebookrack at 12:14 PM on August 7, 2015 [1 favorite]
I'd agree that the first step in making a good Fantastic Four movie is to abandon the law of conservation of weirdness. But the second step is to focus more on Doom, give him some screentime and development.
I'd start it with various TV news programs talking about disasters and/or weird shit happening. Nemor appearing before the UN to demand the world stop polluting his oceans, a giant monster attacking Paris, the police arresting the mysterious "puppeteer" who had enslaved half of [insert city here]. Intercut that with Doom, in full green cloaked armor and face mask [1], first before a computer analyzing data and printing "ODDS OF HUMANITY SURVIVING: 0%", then in a complex but fairly normal pentagram casting spells and seeing a future of extinction (maybe Galactus eating the Earth or something).
Finally, Doom in a crazy complex pentagram with lines made of circuit boards, a giant supercomputer hooked to one node, various glowing flashing technoshit things in other nodes, magic making cool CG effects, he sees several death of humanity futures, alien invasions, atomic war, nanotech devistation, etc all have the computer print "ODDS OF HUMANITY SURVIVING: 0.0%". Until finally he sees a bright technoutopian future, shining monorails, people happy and well fed in cool future clothes, tall buildings, Doombots patroling the street and killing some kid grafiti-ing a building and a giant statue of Dr. Doom standing where the Statue of Liberty used to be. "ODDS OF HUMANITY SURVIVING: 12.4%"
"So be it," Doom growls and stomps off stage.
Then we can do the story of Reed Richards and his buddies trying to find out why everything is so messed up, and how to solve the new problems. They get exposed to the handwavium and gain powers while trying to backtrack a monster that rampaged through Los Angeles to find out how it came to our dimension and why. Doom wants the handwavium for his planned world conquest. They fight, Doom wins and takes the handwavium. Sue is the leader, Reed is the ideas and science guy, Johnny and Ben do engineering.
Reed questions their cause, at Dooms sneering urging he has run numbers on his own computers and they suggest the only hope for mankind lies in Doom's rule. He and the others fight another monster or something, in the process they overcome seemingly impossible odds, and after talking it over with the others realizes that fighting Doom is the only right choice, that impossible odds can be beaten. They fight Doom again and he retreats (not defeated, just decided it wasn't worth fighting for), they've obtained the handwavium and use it to seal off the monsters.
Tagline for the movie: "The world is ending. Will you choose doom, or Von Doom?"
[1] No, the mask never comes off. If the actor who plays Doom can't deal with that then fuck him, he isn't worthy of the part. Doom wears the mask. Always.
posted by sotonohito at 2:35 PM on August 7, 2015 [8 favorites]
I'd start it with various TV news programs talking about disasters and/or weird shit happening. Nemor appearing before the UN to demand the world stop polluting his oceans, a giant monster attacking Paris, the police arresting the mysterious "puppeteer" who had enslaved half of [insert city here]. Intercut that with Doom, in full green cloaked armor and face mask [1], first before a computer analyzing data and printing "ODDS OF HUMANITY SURVIVING: 0%", then in a complex but fairly normal pentagram casting spells and seeing a future of extinction (maybe Galactus eating the Earth or something).
Finally, Doom in a crazy complex pentagram with lines made of circuit boards, a giant supercomputer hooked to one node, various glowing flashing technoshit things in other nodes, magic making cool CG effects, he sees several death of humanity futures, alien invasions, atomic war, nanotech devistation, etc all have the computer print "ODDS OF HUMANITY SURVIVING: 0.0%". Until finally he sees a bright technoutopian future, shining monorails, people happy and well fed in cool future clothes, tall buildings, Doombots patroling the street and killing some kid grafiti-ing a building and a giant statue of Dr. Doom standing where the Statue of Liberty used to be. "ODDS OF HUMANITY SURVIVING: 12.4%"
"So be it," Doom growls and stomps off stage.
Then we can do the story of Reed Richards and his buddies trying to find out why everything is so messed up, and how to solve the new problems. They get exposed to the handwavium and gain powers while trying to backtrack a monster that rampaged through Los Angeles to find out how it came to our dimension and why. Doom wants the handwavium for his planned world conquest. They fight, Doom wins and takes the handwavium. Sue is the leader, Reed is the ideas and science guy, Johnny and Ben do engineering.
Reed questions their cause, at Dooms sneering urging he has run numbers on his own computers and they suggest the only hope for mankind lies in Doom's rule. He and the others fight another monster or something, in the process they overcome seemingly impossible odds, and after talking it over with the others realizes that fighting Doom is the only right choice, that impossible odds can be beaten. They fight Doom again and he retreats (not defeated, just decided it wasn't worth fighting for), they've obtained the handwavium and use it to seal off the monsters.
Tagline for the movie: "The world is ending. Will you choose doom, or Von Doom?"
[1] No, the mask never comes off. If the actor who plays Doom can't deal with that then fuck him, he isn't worthy of the part. Doom wears the mask. Always.
posted by sotonohito at 2:35 PM on August 7, 2015 [8 favorites]
jason_steakums:
posted by Kevin Street at 2:49 PM on August 7, 2015 [2 favorites]
It's such a great motivation for a villain - it's not that he believes the world is better off under his rule, but he knows for a fact that his brutal dictatorship is the only way for humanity to survive. And really they should run all the way with this - make it explicit that this is not just Doom's interpretation of facts, it's not that he's overlooked other possible futures, he's not suffering delusions of grandeur, it's just true that the world will die unless Doom dominates it, and anyone who has the technology or magic to see potential futures for themselves and double check his work can see it. That's like the freedom vs. security metaphor of Civil War but cranked up to 11 and way more tonally fitting with the Marvel Universe...I like your thinking, Sir! Excellent characterization. And ultimately I guess the "solution" to the problem Doom represents is accepting the inevitability of change. If he conquers the world he can save it, by freezing it in time so to speak, under harsh laws and an endless succession of leaders like himself. (Or maybe the Doctor becomes immortal.) The world would be the same for thousands of years, since nothing disruptive is allowed to happen. Meanwhile, in the other timelines people have the freedom to grow and change, and eventually screw up by destroying the Earth. But at the same time Earth is destroyed, it gives birth to new worlds (by colonization, immigration, or even just being an inspiring example) that themselves rise and fall, grow and die. So one world under Doom would be just that - humanity living on one world forever. But in the other timelines humanity grows and spreads throughout the universe, and eventually evolves into whatever comes next.
posted by Kevin Street at 2:49 PM on August 7, 2015 [2 favorites]
The best part of a Doom Civil War is that instead of mostly arbitrarily assigning characters to each side and making these former good guys do heel turns for no particular character-based reasons, anyone who lines up with Doom has a VERY good excuse in that literally everyone on Earth will die a horrible death if they don't. Doom's got one hell of a compelling pitch to go out recruiting with.
Except that's exactly what they did with the real Civil War comic story, except it was Reed doing some Azimovian psychohistorical math that "proved" the registration act was necessary to save humanity, as an explanation for why Reed split with Sue to join Team Fascism. And The Thinker checked his math. The story still sucked.
posted by straight at 3:13 PM on August 7, 2015 [1 favorite]
Except that's exactly what they did with the real Civil War comic story, except it was Reed doing some Azimovian psychohistorical math that "proved" the registration act was necessary to save humanity, as an explanation for why Reed split with Sue to join Team Fascism. And The Thinker checked his math. The story still sucked.
posted by straight at 3:13 PM on August 7, 2015 [1 favorite]
He's not "tough but fair." He's evil. Delusional scum. And he's wrong about everything.
Go away Mark Waid, you never got Doom.
I think for Doom to work, the story must never decisively refute or validate his vision of himself. Is Doom's deepest desire peace and flourishing for humanity, an end which justifies any means? Or is his nobility just a rationalization for his desire to rule? Not even Doom himself knows. But the story must allow Doom to believe it while giving room for Ben, Johnny, Sue, and Reed to reasonably think he's full of shit.
I think Doom will always do the noble thing, defined however he rationalizes it, not because he actually cares about anyone else, but because he has to maintain his noble self-image. Doom always keeps his word because he says to himself, "Doom always keeps his word." The FF can trust him to do the "right" thing, if they correctly ascertain what Doom thinks is right.
posted by straight at 3:26 PM on August 7, 2015 [3 favorites]
Go away Mark Waid, you never got Doom.
I think for Doom to work, the story must never decisively refute or validate his vision of himself. Is Doom's deepest desire peace and flourishing for humanity, an end which justifies any means? Or is his nobility just a rationalization for his desire to rule? Not even Doom himself knows. But the story must allow Doom to believe it while giving room for Ben, Johnny, Sue, and Reed to reasonably think he's full of shit.
I think Doom will always do the noble thing, defined however he rationalizes it, not because he actually cares about anyone else, but because he has to maintain his noble self-image. Doom always keeps his word because he says to himself, "Doom always keeps his word." The FF can trust him to do the "right" thing, if they correctly ascertain what Doom thinks is right.
posted by straight at 3:26 PM on August 7, 2015 [3 favorites]
Except that's exactly what they did with the real Civil War comic story, except it was Reed doing some Azimovian psychohistorical math that "proved" the registration act was necessary to save humanity, as an explanation for why Reed split with Sue to join Team Fascism. And The Thinker checked his math. The story still sucked.
Right but the problem with what they did there is that they put Reed in the Doom role. Even allowing that the bullshit math makes sense because sure, why not, fictional world and all, Reed Richards should run the numbers and see that the logic points to the fascist conclusion and still ultimately decide "No. We can do better." Partly because Reed is a good guy, sure, but mainly because for Reed Richards, when you see that all possible avenues lead somewhere awful you go out there into the unknown with your family at your back and expand our understanding of what is possible.
posted by jason_steakums at 5:03 PM on August 7, 2015 [3 favorites]
Right but the problem with what they did there is that they put Reed in the Doom role. Even allowing that the bullshit math makes sense because sure, why not, fictional world and all, Reed Richards should run the numbers and see that the logic points to the fascist conclusion and still ultimately decide "No. We can do better." Partly because Reed is a good guy, sure, but mainly because for Reed Richards, when you see that all possible avenues lead somewhere awful you go out there into the unknown with your family at your back and expand our understanding of what is possible.
posted by jason_steakums at 5:03 PM on August 7, 2015 [3 favorites]
jason, exactly, and that's why the Civil War Reed was so bad. Just more stupid, bad, executive meddling by the same editor who brought you One More Day.
posted by sotonohito at 5:13 PM on August 7, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by sotonohito at 5:13 PM on August 7, 2015 [3 favorites]
Imagine if the setup is that super-weirdness is exploding all over the world, courtesy of recent breakthroughs in science. Giant monsters from deep within the Earth are accidentally awakened; portals to a strange anti-matter dimension are created; an undersea civilization of blue humanoids is discovered; and so forth. The world is suddenly much, much bigger than ever before. One of the towering geniuses of the age, Reed Richards, and his team try to explore a part of it and blammo, superpowers. That's the backstory, dispensed in the credits.
Start the movie off with the FF fighting a giant monster that burst from the ground in midtown. This, the movie explains, is the kind of ride you're in for.
This is an excellent pitch for what a Fantastic Four movie should be, and it made me realize that I can really only think of one director who could pull it off -- namely, Guillermo Del Toro. Something pitched somewhere between Pacific Rim and Hellboy sounds just about right.
posted by webmutant at 5:42 PM on August 7, 2015 [4 favorites]
Start the movie off with the FF fighting a giant monster that burst from the ground in midtown. This, the movie explains, is the kind of ride you're in for.
This is an excellent pitch for what a Fantastic Four movie should be, and it made me realize that I can really only think of one director who could pull it off -- namely, Guillermo Del Toro. Something pitched somewhere between Pacific Rim and Hellboy sounds just about right.
posted by webmutant at 5:42 PM on August 7, 2015 [4 favorites]
I am on board for Del Toro's glittering clockwork Doombots!
posted by nicebookrack at 6:48 PM on August 7, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by nicebookrack at 6:48 PM on August 7, 2015 [1 favorite]
Deadpool and Weasel’s attempts to insult the new Thing is sidelined by an unnervingly unsung bit of character assassination.
My god, it's even worse than we imagined.
posted by nicebookrack at 10:11 PM on August 7, 2015
My god, it's even worse than we imagined.
posted by nicebookrack at 10:11 PM on August 7, 2015
Relive those early Fantadtic Fours with the Baxter Building on the Wait! What? podcast!
Thanks for linking this. It was a really fascinating listen to me as kind of a dilettante when it comes to comics, and I'm glad I put in the time to listen to it. Most of what I know/have experienced of superhero comics outside of the movies is... various mostly-awful 90s cartoons (sadly, they couldn't all be Batman:TAS), especially Marvel stuff. I've read some of the more famous trades, but never felt compelled to wander very far down this particular rabbit hole.
My memory of the cartoon from the mid-90s is that it was... Okay by my standards at the time, but not anywhere near one of my favorites. I definitely remember Doctor Doom, but if he's one of the best villains ever, that cartoon must've made a very poor case for it. So not that cool a cartoon... Except for the Silver Surfer and Galactus bits. Those were definitely cool to 10-11 year old me.
Even without watching them, it was obvious from trailers that the movies they've been making definitely don't bear any resemblance to the feel of the cartoon as I remember it, but also I had no sense of how much like the comic that was. So this gave me that in an entertaining way, but also was a nice overview of another example of Kirby and Lee kind of figuring out what the hell a new title was as they were making it.
posted by sparkletone at 3:35 AM on August 8, 2015 [1 favorite]
Thanks for linking this. It was a really fascinating listen to me as kind of a dilettante when it comes to comics, and I'm glad I put in the time to listen to it. Most of what I know/have experienced of superhero comics outside of the movies is... various mostly-awful 90s cartoons (sadly, they couldn't all be Batman:TAS), especially Marvel stuff. I've read some of the more famous trades, but never felt compelled to wander very far down this particular rabbit hole.
My memory of the cartoon from the mid-90s is that it was... Okay by my standards at the time, but not anywhere near one of my favorites. I definitely remember Doctor Doom, but if he's one of the best villains ever, that cartoon must've made a very poor case for it. So not that cool a cartoon... Except for the Silver Surfer and Galactus bits. Those were definitely cool to 10-11 year old me.
Even without watching them, it was obvious from trailers that the movies they've been making definitely don't bear any resemblance to the feel of the cartoon as I remember it, but also I had no sense of how much like the comic that was. So this gave me that in an entertaining way, but also was a nice overview of another example of Kirby and Lee kind of figuring out what the hell a new title was as they were making it.
posted by sparkletone at 3:35 AM on August 8, 2015 [1 favorite]
Wow, this is getting crushed at the box office this weekend. BoxOfficeMojo's revised prediction given Friday numbers is down to 27 million! That's just a little bit better than Pixels, and it probably won't take first place against MI:5! For a superhero tentpole to NOT take first place in this climate is a major, major loss for the studio.
Over the longterm, the HSX valuation of it has dropped from ~130 million over four weeks to 97 and falling. With its 120 million dollar budget, and the insane amount they must have spent on the recent marketing push, that's a huge loss in raw numbers. The withering reviews will kill the secondary market and I can't imagine that the F4 really has brand recognition to sell toys and merchandise to make up for it. Foreign numbers aren't in, however, which could help salvage some of the movie's cost.
I feel bad for the actors (who have a lot of raw talent that is going to waste), and to some extent the director (given what I've heard of its production), but I'm hoping that this is a major wake-up call to studios that you can't just slap some superhero on a total piece of shit and expect it to magically make money for you.
posted by codacorolla at 11:15 AM on August 8, 2015
Over the longterm, the HSX valuation of it has dropped from ~130 million over four weeks to 97 and falling. With its 120 million dollar budget, and the insane amount they must have spent on the recent marketing push, that's a huge loss in raw numbers. The withering reviews will kill the secondary market and I can't imagine that the F4 really has brand recognition to sell toys and merchandise to make up for it. Foreign numbers aren't in, however, which could help salvage some of the movie's cost.
I feel bad for the actors (who have a lot of raw talent that is going to waste), and to some extent the director (given what I've heard of its production), but I'm hoping that this is a major wake-up call to studios that you can't just slap some superhero on a total piece of shit and expect it to magically make money for you.
posted by codacorolla at 11:15 AM on August 8, 2015
I can't see anyone wanting to do another FF movie, period. Marvel may get those film rights back at the worst time.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 11:43 AM on August 8, 2015
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 11:43 AM on August 8, 2015
Civil War. Infinity War. Secret Wars. Secret Invasion. There's a ton of crossover events Marvel's done that include the Avengers, Spider-Man, and the Fantastic Four. If Marvel gets the rights to those characters back, then they can do those stories, and do them right. It's not just about doing a F4 movie, it's about the rights to the characters - heroes and villains. Doom, Kang, Skrulls, Galactus... if what's been missing from the MCU is worthwhile villains, they're available in spades with the F4.
posted by GhostintheMachine at 12:31 PM on August 8, 2015
posted by GhostintheMachine at 12:31 PM on August 8, 2015
They're already doing outta four of those just fine, so not having the FF hasn't been a big loss. Though including them in another movie would be a good way to rebuild their image.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 12:42 PM on August 8, 2015
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 12:42 PM on August 8, 2015
The loss has been a lot more subtle, in that there are lots of character interactions that can't happen in the MCU today. Spider-Man and Johnny Storm one-upping each other, the Thing teaming up with just about everybody (his comic lasted for over 100 issues), the Avengers consulting with Reed when they're stumped by a problem, Sue's involvement with SHIELD. Just a lot of stuff that made the universe richer.
posted by Kevin Street at 1:35 PM on August 8, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by Kevin Street at 1:35 PM on August 8, 2015 [2 favorites]
Maybe the worst thing about Marvel not having the F4 rights, even worse than not having access to Doom, is that we can't have an MCU scene of one of Ben Grimm's poker nights.
I wonder, if Marvel does get the rights back, if they'll go the Netflix series route with the F4 just because of potential box office stigma. I do think that some of the decision makers at Fox have to at least be considering selling the rights back after this, the odds aren't great that they'll make any worthwhile money off of the property any time soon.
posted by jason_steakums at 3:10 PM on August 8, 2015
I wonder, if Marvel does get the rights back, if they'll go the Netflix series route with the F4 just because of potential box office stigma. I do think that some of the decision makers at Fox have to at least be considering selling the rights back after this, the odds aren't great that they'll make any worthwhile money off of the property any time soon.
posted by jason_steakums at 3:10 PM on August 8, 2015
Maybe someone could start an online petition, urging Fox to "Just give up, in the name of all that is holy, and let Marvel have the Fantastic Four rights back".
posted by Grangousier at 4:28 PM on August 8, 2015
posted by Grangousier at 4:28 PM on August 8, 2015
Nooo, don't want Marvel to have the rights either. Not having their big names forced them to grow in great ways. Guardins wouldn't have happened if they had those heavy hitters.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 4:48 PM on August 8, 2015
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 4:48 PM on August 8, 2015
I do think that some of the decision makers at Fox have to at least be considering selling the rights back
Wasn't the whole point of this film to retain the rights to Fantastic Four? If that was the real goal, then actually making any money back is at most a secondary objective.
posted by happyroach at 4:53 PM on August 8, 2015
Wasn't the whole point of this film to retain the rights to Fantastic Four? If that was the real goal, then actually making any money back is at most a secondary objective.
posted by happyroach at 4:53 PM on August 8, 2015
Why hold onto the rights if not to make money?
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 5:16 PM on August 8, 2015
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 5:16 PM on August 8, 2015
Sunk costs fallacy.
Also I guess if Marvel was able to fill one more summer opening date it would be one less Sony could fill, though it's not like they aren't turning out movies at a fair clip anyway.
posted by Artw at 5:25 PM on August 8, 2015
Also I guess if Marvel was able to fill one more summer opening date it would be one less Sony could fill, though it's not like they aren't turning out movies at a fair clip anyway.
posted by Artw at 5:25 PM on August 8, 2015
A consistent criticism of the MCU thus far has been the disposability of the villains, with the exceptions of Loki and the Winter Soldier. The larger problem with that is that the biggest and most popular Marvel villains left—the charismatic megafauna of supervillains—aren't associated with the Avengers' rights currently in the MCU. Marvel needs access to the FF and Spider-Man Rogues' Gallery: villain popular enough they can't just kill them off in each movie.
posted by nicebookrack at 7:45 PM on August 8, 2015
posted by nicebookrack at 7:45 PM on August 8, 2015
Marvel absolutely doesn't need access to those. They've literally made billions without those characters so there's zero reason for them to be jumping through hoops for them.
It would be nice, but it's not necessary.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 8:26 PM on August 8, 2015
It would be nice, but it's not necessary.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 8:26 PM on August 8, 2015
A consistent criticism of the MCU thus far has been the disposability of the villains, with the exceptions of Loki and the Winter Soldier. The larger problem with that is that the biggest and most popular Marvel villains left—the charismatic megafauna of supervillains—aren't associated with the Avengers' rights currently in the MCU. Marvel needs access to the FF and Spider-Man Rogues' Gallery: villain popular enough they can't just kill them off in each movie.
Loki, the Winter Soldier, the best Spidey villains, Doom, Magneto - the one thing they've all got is a deeper personal connection to the protagonists than just being a threat that needs to be stopped, and that makes the stories with them more compelling. Which is what worries me about Marvel using Thanos as the big bad, because so far his only personal connection is to Gamora and it feels like a lot of buildup for something that might be a little hollow. Thanos has always felt hollow to me - don't get me wrong, he's fun and he's great for spectacle, but he's just a Galactus-style threat with worse motivation and stakes that feel lower despite being higher. Sure, Thanos was ready, willing and able to kill literally everything instead of just Earth, but every hero in the Marvel Universe was there to throw everything they had at him. Galactus was like a hungry god just showing up in your living room unannounced and it was up to you and your family to think fast and do something about it with whatever you had on hand.
TBH I think they should have built up to World War Hulk instead of The Infinity Gauntlet, Hulk's got deep personal connections to the team by this point and the circumstances that set up WWH and all the good will the audience has for Hulk from the first batch of movies actually makes him a sympathetic, relatable villain. And Hulk doesn't need power gems to be a world-ending threat, he just needs to get more control than Banner and access some of them Banner smarts to get clever. A version of the Wanda-initiated Hulk rampage in Age of Ultron can be one of the catalysts which sets up the Civil War plot in Cap 3 which ends with Tony and SHIELD shooting Hulk into space which leads into a sweet Planet Hulk movie, where Hulk actually gets smart enough and finds the resources and allies necessary to come back and smash puny Earth. Maybe Hulk makes a quick stop in Asgard on the way home to take out Thor and wreck Bifrost to cut Earth off from Asgardian help, because I'd love to see Hulk in that setting. The Guardians of the Galaxy all racing Hulk back to Earth to warn them that he's coming because they showed up in Planet Hulk and got trounced... I'd love to see that instead of Thanos.
posted by jason_steakums at 11:03 PM on August 8, 2015 [2 favorites]
Loki, the Winter Soldier, the best Spidey villains, Doom, Magneto - the one thing they've all got is a deeper personal connection to the protagonists than just being a threat that needs to be stopped, and that makes the stories with them more compelling. Which is what worries me about Marvel using Thanos as the big bad, because so far his only personal connection is to Gamora and it feels like a lot of buildup for something that might be a little hollow. Thanos has always felt hollow to me - don't get me wrong, he's fun and he's great for spectacle, but he's just a Galactus-style threat with worse motivation and stakes that feel lower despite being higher. Sure, Thanos was ready, willing and able to kill literally everything instead of just Earth, but every hero in the Marvel Universe was there to throw everything they had at him. Galactus was like a hungry god just showing up in your living room unannounced and it was up to you and your family to think fast and do something about it with whatever you had on hand.
TBH I think they should have built up to World War Hulk instead of The Infinity Gauntlet, Hulk's got deep personal connections to the team by this point and the circumstances that set up WWH and all the good will the audience has for Hulk from the first batch of movies actually makes him a sympathetic, relatable villain. And Hulk doesn't need power gems to be a world-ending threat, he just needs to get more control than Banner and access some of them Banner smarts to get clever. A version of the Wanda-initiated Hulk rampage in Age of Ultron can be one of the catalysts which sets up the Civil War plot in Cap 3 which ends with Tony and SHIELD shooting Hulk into space which leads into a sweet Planet Hulk movie, where Hulk actually gets smart enough and finds the resources and allies necessary to come back and smash puny Earth. Maybe Hulk makes a quick stop in Asgard on the way home to take out Thor and wreck Bifrost to cut Earth off from Asgardian help, because I'd love to see Hulk in that setting. The Guardians of the Galaxy all racing Hulk back to Earth to warn them that he's coming because they showed up in Planet Hulk and got trounced... I'd love to see that instead of Thanos.
posted by jason_steakums at 11:03 PM on August 8, 2015 [2 favorites]
"...a sweet Planet Hulk movie, where Hulk actually gets smart enough and finds the resources and allies necessary to come back and smash puny Earth."
Whoa! That would be amazing. Perhaps even... incredible?
posted by Kevin Street at 11:57 AM on August 9, 2015
Whoa! That would be amazing. Perhaps even... incredible?
posted by Kevin Street at 11:57 AM on August 9, 2015
A Hulk solo movie isn't likely to happen soon, because of distribution rights reasons and Incredible Hulk's underperformance at the box office. In a World War Hulk scenario in which Hulk stays hulked for most of the story, that's an incredibly expensive CGI gamble on a digital main character who speaks mostly in grunts. Or if Banner stays Banner most of the movie, he becomes "that annoying human who refuses to hulk out and smash things excitingly all the time." Plus there are no other recognizable characters unless you pull in the GOTG.
I'd rather see Banner / Hulk in a limited Netflix series, maybe a team-up (Black Widow?), in the spirit of the original Incredible Hulk TV show—for which the plot of every episode could be summarized as "(David) Banner tries to avoid becoming the Hulk and fails." It mostly worked because the serial format gave Banner time to endear himself to the audience as a character distinct from the Hulk. The audience needs to sympathize with Banner wanting to avoid the Hulk, not resent him for preventing the cool Hulk smashing that the audience is here to see.
posted by nicebookrack at 3:18 PM on August 9, 2015 [1 favorite]
I'd rather see Banner / Hulk in a limited Netflix series, maybe a team-up (Black Widow?), in the spirit of the original Incredible Hulk TV show—for which the plot of every episode could be summarized as "(David) Banner tries to avoid becoming the Hulk and fails." It mostly worked because the serial format gave Banner time to endear himself to the audience as a character distinct from the Hulk. The audience needs to sympathize with Banner wanting to avoid the Hulk, not resent him for preventing the cool Hulk smashing that the audience is here to see.
posted by nicebookrack at 3:18 PM on August 9, 2015 [1 favorite]
The Kung Fu paradox - the cool action the audience cake to see also represents the greatest failure for the protagonist.
posted by Artw at 3:44 PM on August 9, 2015
posted by Artw at 3:44 PM on August 9, 2015
Just saw it. Not good.
posted by Halloween Jack at 3:46 PM on August 9, 2015
posted by Halloween Jack at 3:46 PM on August 9, 2015
Actually, given the Hulk/Kung Fu basic plot outline and the problems with it, you know who combines Buddhist principles including an aversion to violence with kick-ass action sequences really, really well? We need a Stephen Chow Hulk movie.
posted by Artw at 3:59 PM on August 9, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by Artw at 3:59 PM on August 9, 2015 [4 favorites]
Anyone know the terms of the FF rights? The last film was in 2007, so I'm guessing a new movie needs to appear every 8-10 years for Fox to keep the rights.
So it probably doesn't make much sense for Fox to give up the rights by not making a new film.
Previously an FF sequel was scheduled for 2017. Who knows. All they need is a solid hit and the bad films will be forgotten.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 4:51 PM on August 9, 2015
So it probably doesn't make much sense for Fox to give up the rights by not making a new film.
Previously an FF sequel was scheduled for 2017. Who knows. All they need is a solid hit and the bad films will be forgotten.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 4:51 PM on August 9, 2015
Trank Sank: Fantastic Four blame flies after poor box office showing
posted by Artw at 9:31 AM on August 10, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by Artw at 9:31 AM on August 10, 2015 [1 favorite]
Anyone know the terms of the FF rights?
According to comicbook.com, they have to start production within seven years of the last release, and release it up to a year later. But it's probably in both studio's interest to broker a deal before then.
posted by GhostintheMachine at 9:42 AM on August 10, 2015 [1 favorite]
According to comicbook.com, they have to start production within seven years of the last release, and release it up to a year later. But it's probably in both studio's interest to broker a deal before then.
posted by GhostintheMachine at 9:42 AM on August 10, 2015 [1 favorite]
Fantastic Four: A Spoilereview
If you intend to see the movie and do not want plot details revealed to you in advance, stop reading now. If, by contrast, you would like to admire the awfulness of Fantastic Four without actually having to watch it—or if you’ve already seen the movie and are still reeling from the experience—read on. I apologize in advance for the length: There’s a lot of awful to cover.posted by a fiendish thingy at 9:49 AM on August 10, 2015 [1 favorite]
Interesting look at scenes from the trailer that didn't appear in the movie. Trank may have a point about the studio changing things.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 1:40 AM on August 11, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 1:40 AM on August 11, 2015 [4 favorites]
The Most Important Scenes from Fantastic Four (As I Remember Them)
posted by Artw at 9:23 AM on August 11, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by Artw at 9:23 AM on August 11, 2015 [1 favorite]
There will probably be talk of it being a lost Trank masterpiece forever*, fandom being what it is, but I see a strong possibility that without studio intervention what we would have got is a different terrible movie, not a better one.
* or until Trank makes another film and it's not solid gold.
posted by Artw at 9:26 AM on August 11, 2015 [2 favorites]
* or until Trank makes another film and it's not solid gold.
posted by Artw at 9:26 AM on August 11, 2015 [2 favorites]
Oh, Artw, that's awesome.
Ben Grimm: “Planet Zero” is a dumber name than “Negative Zone.” Why aggravate the comics fans when it’s not even an improvement?
Ben Grimm's my favourite character in the comics and in the snarky recaps!
posted by GhostintheMachine at 6:24 PM on August 11, 2015 [1 favorite]
Ben Grimm: “Planet Zero” is a dumber name than “Negative Zone.” Why aggravate the comics fans when it’s not even an improvement?
Ben Grimm's my favourite character in the comics and in the snarky recaps!
posted by GhostintheMachine at 6:24 PM on August 11, 2015 [1 favorite]
Trank may have a point about the studio changing things.
That trailer comparison you link definitely makes a suggestive case. Also, if you follow the links in Artw's 'Trank Sank' link just above, you find this: "Fox May Have Messed With Josh Trank's Fantastic Four Much More Than We Thought," which includes a link to a video [relevant clip starts around 3:15] where a talking head I don't know claims this:
I've got a source, fairly close to the production of this film, who had told me that the movie that Josh Trank and Fox had agreed on making — included 3 really big action set pieces. That was all agreed upon, it was part of the flow of the movie. And a movie is like a puzzle, you have all the pieces in place. You start messing with pieces and suddenly the whole puzzle can look out of whack. And they had agreed upon this vision for a film. And days before production began, Fox came in and made him pull 3 main action sequences out of the film. I was also told, the ending of the film was not even Josh Trank's. At some point they hijacked the editing bay from him. To the point that the editing of the film was done without him.
If Fox indeed yanked three major action scenes in Trank's version of the film just days before production was supposed to start, that would give some creedence to Trank's public tantrum.
Of course, that Cinemablend article includes a link to this Cinemablend article focusing on accusations of Trank's bad behavior (the trashing of the rented production house, etc), which includes a link to anonymous comments (since deleted but still quoted in replies) at this forum alleging that
A buddy of mine was on the crew. Trank showed up to set late or so high he couldn't speak almost everyday. Some days he didn't show up at all. He treated crew terribly.
Probably a combination of shittiness on all sides, but who can tell for sure? I await the Hollywood Reporter exposé sometime next January.
posted by mediareport at 8:19 PM on August 11, 2015
That trailer comparison you link definitely makes a suggestive case. Also, if you follow the links in Artw's 'Trank Sank' link just above, you find this: "Fox May Have Messed With Josh Trank's Fantastic Four Much More Than We Thought," which includes a link to a video [relevant clip starts around 3:15] where a talking head I don't know claims this:
I've got a source, fairly close to the production of this film, who had told me that the movie that Josh Trank and Fox had agreed on making — included 3 really big action set pieces. That was all agreed upon, it was part of the flow of the movie. And a movie is like a puzzle, you have all the pieces in place. You start messing with pieces and suddenly the whole puzzle can look out of whack. And they had agreed upon this vision for a film. And days before production began, Fox came in and made him pull 3 main action sequences out of the film. I was also told, the ending of the film was not even Josh Trank's. At some point they hijacked the editing bay from him. To the point that the editing of the film was done without him.
If Fox indeed yanked three major action scenes in Trank's version of the film just days before production was supposed to start, that would give some creedence to Trank's public tantrum.
Of course, that Cinemablend article includes a link to this Cinemablend article focusing on accusations of Trank's bad behavior (the trashing of the rented production house, etc), which includes a link to anonymous comments (since deleted but still quoted in replies) at this forum alleging that
A buddy of mine was on the crew. Trank showed up to set late or so high he couldn't speak almost everyday. Some days he didn't show up at all. He treated crew terribly.
Probably a combination of shittiness on all sides, but who can tell for sure? I await the Hollywood Reporter exposé sometime next January.
posted by mediareport at 8:19 PM on August 11, 2015
Man, Jamie Bell is so lucky. If Fox decides to go ahead with the sequel despite their complete botching of this one, he doesn't even have to show up for filming! He'll get to record some voiceover lines and be done.
posted by a fiendish thingy at 5:46 AM on August 12, 2015
posted by a fiendish thingy at 5:46 AM on August 12, 2015
Has that sort of last minute studio tinkering ever fixed a film? I can think of lots of examples of studio re-edits damaging or destroying a film (Greed, Metropolis, Ambersons, A Star is Born, Bladerunner) but I can't think of any that were actually aided by that kind of interference.
posted by octothorpe at 7:36 AM on August 12, 2015
posted by octothorpe at 7:36 AM on August 12, 2015
Annie Hall was famously saved by the editor who cut it down dramatically to turn it into a rim-com, but that's not exactly studio. Donnie Darko was also saved in the editing suite by producers, the director's cut was neigh unwatchable
posted by The Whelk at 8:15 AM on August 12, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by The Whelk at 8:15 AM on August 12, 2015 [1 favorite]
I await the Hollywood Reporter exposé sometime next January.
You and me both. Making movies isn't easy, but making a decent, not great, but at least decent FF film isn't that hard. I'd love to read a tell all story or book at they way Fox botched this. Yeah, I say Fox because was Trank obviously had some part in things going south, the movie studio itself is supposed to be on the ball about this stuff. The X-men films are fine, not great, but fine, so how the hell does the same studio botch such a potentially easy win profit and critic wise?
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 9:06 AM on August 12, 2015
You and me both. Making movies isn't easy, but making a decent, not great, but at least decent FF film isn't that hard. I'd love to read a tell all story or book at they way Fox botched this. Yeah, I say Fox because was Trank obviously had some part in things going south, the movie studio itself is supposed to be on the ball about this stuff. The X-men films are fine, not great, but fine, so how the hell does the same studio botch such a potentially easy win profit and critic wise?
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 9:06 AM on August 12, 2015
Oh, if we're going to debate who screwed up the F4 movie more, my money is on the studio 100%. But the reason's a little different.
Trank's vision for this movie was complete crap. What we know of the movie while Trank had control was terrible. He didn't understand the characters, their relationships, or their motivations. The story he wanted to tell was ridiculously far removed from the source. I'm not a purist wanting an exact reproduction of the comic story - I was on board with the younger/Ultimate spin and Michael B. Jordan as Johnny - but there still has to be some relevance to the F4 otherwise there's no point in using the name. He may have been able to produce an incredible (no pun) movie, but it was never going to be a Fantastic Four movie. Any grief he's getting for making a terrible F4 movie is entirely deserved.
However, it's not like the studio handed the keys to Trank and let him go where he wanted. They knew the script and the vision well in advance, and they chose to let Trank make this. If they had any reservations about the movie he was going to make, they could and should have made changes much earlier. They only decided when it was far too late that he was making a movie they didn't want, and then they took steps to correct it. So it's a credit to them that they realized their mistake, but they compounded the problem by botching the correction.
Trank's responsible for wanting to take an established property and turn it into something different. West Side Story is a great reimagining of Romeo and Juliet, for example. But Fox is at fault for not realizing that was something nobody wanted right now.
posted by GhostintheMachine at 11:05 AM on August 12, 2015 [1 favorite]
Trank's vision for this movie was complete crap. What we know of the movie while Trank had control was terrible. He didn't understand the characters, their relationships, or their motivations. The story he wanted to tell was ridiculously far removed from the source. I'm not a purist wanting an exact reproduction of the comic story - I was on board with the younger/Ultimate spin and Michael B. Jordan as Johnny - but there still has to be some relevance to the F4 otherwise there's no point in using the name. He may have been able to produce an incredible (no pun) movie, but it was never going to be a Fantastic Four movie. Any grief he's getting for making a terrible F4 movie is entirely deserved.
However, it's not like the studio handed the keys to Trank and let him go where he wanted. They knew the script and the vision well in advance, and they chose to let Trank make this. If they had any reservations about the movie he was going to make, they could and should have made changes much earlier. They only decided when it was far too late that he was making a movie they didn't want, and then they took steps to correct it. So it's a credit to them that they realized their mistake, but they compounded the problem by botching the correction.
Trank's responsible for wanting to take an established property and turn it into something different. West Side Story is a great reimagining of Romeo and Juliet, for example. But Fox is at fault for not realizing that was something nobody wanted right now.
posted by GhostintheMachine at 11:05 AM on August 12, 2015 [1 favorite]
More:
As Fox hurried to put the project into production before rights to the material reverted to Marvel, the studio was scrambling with multiple rewrites and delays in starting the film. They "were afraid of losing the rights so they pressed forward and didn't surround [Trank] with help or fire him. They buried their heads in the sand." Fox declined to comment.
Another source says the notion of firing Trank came up even before the cameras started to roll. But Fox put its faith in him...And the studio was trying to shake off its reputation for micromanaging filmmakers. So executives were reluctant to interfere onFantastic Four despite warnings of trouble.
When the seriousness of the problems could no longer be ignored, says a key source on the project, it was too late to fire the director. "How do you ask someone to take over half of a movie shot by someone else?" he says...
As filming wound toward an unhappy close, the studio and producers Simon Kinbergand Hutch Parker engaged in a last-minute scramble to come up with an ending...a lot of material was shot with doubles and the production moved to Los Angeles to film scenes with Teller against a green screen. "It was chaos," says a crewmember, adding that Trank was still in attendance "but was neutralized by a committee."
...A Fantastic Four crew member concurs but says that doesn't relieve the studio of its responsibility for what went wrong with this film. "To me, it is a classic indictment of the entire system," he says. "Give Josh Trank a $20 million movie. Groom him. But they don't make those movies anymore. … Nobody should escape scrutiny on this one. Everyone should take a good look in the mirror, myself included. Even I probably did the movie for the wrong reasons.
posted by mediareport at 7:45 AM on August 13, 2015
As Fox hurried to put the project into production before rights to the material reverted to Marvel, the studio was scrambling with multiple rewrites and delays in starting the film. They "were afraid of losing the rights so they pressed forward and didn't surround [Trank] with help or fire him. They buried their heads in the sand." Fox declined to comment.
Another source says the notion of firing Trank came up even before the cameras started to roll. But Fox put its faith in him...And the studio was trying to shake off its reputation for micromanaging filmmakers. So executives were reluctant to interfere onFantastic Four despite warnings of trouble.
When the seriousness of the problems could no longer be ignored, says a key source on the project, it was too late to fire the director. "How do you ask someone to take over half of a movie shot by someone else?" he says...
As filming wound toward an unhappy close, the studio and producers Simon Kinbergand Hutch Parker engaged in a last-minute scramble to come up with an ending...a lot of material was shot with doubles and the production moved to Los Angeles to film scenes with Teller against a green screen. "It was chaos," says a crewmember, adding that Trank was still in attendance "but was neutralized by a committee."
...A Fantastic Four crew member concurs but says that doesn't relieve the studio of its responsibility for what went wrong with this film. "To me, it is a classic indictment of the entire system," he says. "Give Josh Trank a $20 million movie. Groom him. But they don't make those movies anymore. … Nobody should escape scrutiny on this one. Everyone should take a good look in the mirror, myself included. Even I probably did the movie for the wrong reasons.
posted by mediareport at 7:45 AM on August 13, 2015
Thanks mediareport. Reading all this stuff has become a weird fetish for me. Now I finally understand rubbernecking accidents.
I'm not fan of the Fantastic Four and think a darker tone could have worked for the movie. But if you're going to go that way, then commit to it, don't half ass it.
"How do you ask someone to take over half of a movie shot by someone else?" he says...
By...asking them? If they say no, move on down the list. Somewhere, there's a talent director open to the possibility of getting their foot in the door by fixing a mess.
It's fine if you want to make a reboot just to hold on to the rights. Really, it's ok, very reasonable business idea. But it would be a good idea to make the movie good, which means its profitable. Whoever signed off on that final cut should be fired.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 8:05 AM on August 13, 2015
I'm not fan of the Fantastic Four and think a darker tone could have worked for the movie. But if you're going to go that way, then commit to it, don't half ass it.
"How do you ask someone to take over half of a movie shot by someone else?" he says...
By...asking them? If they say no, move on down the list. Somewhere, there's a talent director open to the possibility of getting their foot in the door by fixing a mess.
It's fine if you want to make a reboot just to hold on to the rights. Really, it's ok, very reasonable business idea. But it would be a good idea to make the movie good, which means its profitable. Whoever signed off on that final cut should be fired.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 8:05 AM on August 13, 2015
Seriously, this has been a fascinating train wreck, much better than the movie itself could've been. I think it's because superhero movies were so reliably killing it, having one actually full-on bomb, complete with bitter recriminations, gives us an interesting glimpse into the movie industry today.
It's like how you would write a film about it: a movie made to hold the rights, promising young director going postal, studio interference before film rolls, actors being forced onto the director, a casting controversy, turning a catchphrase into a bullying thing, abuse of the cast, property damage, director playing like he's Achilles and hiding in a tent, reshoots by someone else, an awful wig, the rants posted on message boards, the ultimate reveal that it's a flop. Beat for beat, I don't think you could do better.
Disney has to be thinking, if Fox is going to eat $60 million on this, that's got to be a good first offer to buy the rights back.
posted by graymouser at 9:23 AM on August 13, 2015 [1 favorite]
It's like how you would write a film about it: a movie made to hold the rights, promising young director going postal, studio interference before film rolls, actors being forced onto the director, a casting controversy, turning a catchphrase into a bullying thing, abuse of the cast, property damage, director playing like he's Achilles and hiding in a tent, reshoots by someone else, an awful wig, the rants posted on message boards, the ultimate reveal that it's a flop. Beat for beat, I don't think you could do better.
Disney has to be thinking, if Fox is going to eat $60 million on this, that's got to be a good first offer to buy the rights back.
posted by graymouser at 9:23 AM on August 13, 2015 [1 favorite]
Really, it's pretty impressive that this kind of total disaster doesn't happen more often. I guess it's a testament to a whole lot of people in Hollywood who are good at their jobs and know how to make these enormous projects mostly work most of the time.
I guess maybe it's not that common for a licensing issue to prevent a studio from delaying a troubled production, but there has to be almost as much pressure to make sure that, for instance, nothing stops Captain America: Civil War from being ready next summer.
posted by straight at 1:52 PM on August 13, 2015 [1 favorite]
I guess maybe it's not that common for a licensing issue to prevent a studio from delaying a troubled production, but there has to be almost as much pressure to make sure that, for instance, nothing stops Captain America: Civil War from being ready next summer.
posted by straight at 1:52 PM on August 13, 2015 [1 favorite]
Ant-Man was heavily delayed, but that's mostly the result of Edgar Wright doing other things and then the nature of Marvel films changing out from under him.
posted by Artw at 1:55 PM on August 13, 2015
posted by Artw at 1:55 PM on August 13, 2015
Marvel does as much interfering with the creating process on their movies as Fox did with this, it's just that they're much better at it. I mean Iron Man 2 was kind of a mess but it didn't feel like it was duct-taped together like this thing sound like.
posted by octothorpe at 4:57 PM on August 13, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by octothorpe at 4:57 PM on August 13, 2015 [1 favorite]
Plus their meddling is meant to make the movie fit a corporate voice rather than to just get it out the door. Say what you will about the homogenous storytelling of the Marvel Cinematic Universe, at least it's an ethos.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 5:25 PM on August 13, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 5:25 PM on August 13, 2015 [2 favorites]
Yes, meddling isn't so much the problem, though it's not doubt annoying for the director. It happens to everyone hired to do a job.
It's the stunningly inept meddling that Fox did on this particular project that's the problem. Or entertainment, depending on your perspective.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:03 PM on August 13, 2015
It's the stunningly inept meddling that Fox did on this particular project that's the problem. Or entertainment, depending on your perspective.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:03 PM on August 13, 2015
Here's a different take on the situation, it's pretty pro Trank, unless I'm missing the sarcasm or satire: Fantastic Four Should Have Been Great.
Honestly, as a non-fan of FF, the more I read about the comic, the more I'm beginning to think it's unfilmable for modern audiences without major retooling. It was series firmly planted in the '60s and those tropes come off as extremely archaic. Would a story set in the '60s work then? Possibly, but that my reluctance on that might be own dislike of Mad Men and the focus on white males in superhero films, which is product of the '60s.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 3:27 AM on August 14, 2015
Honestly, as a non-fan of FF, the more I read about the comic, the more I'm beginning to think it's unfilmable for modern audiences without major retooling. It was series firmly planted in the '60s and those tropes come off as extremely archaic. Would a story set in the '60s work then? Possibly, but that my reluctance on that might be own dislike of Mad Men and the focus on white males in superhero films, which is product of the '60s.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 3:27 AM on August 14, 2015
He's the single best villain in any American comic book mythos
Why is Doctor Doom the single best villain in any American comic book mythos?
posted by the man of twists and turns at 7:52 AM on August 28, 2015
Why is Doctor Doom the single best villain in any American comic book mythos?
posted by the man of twists and turns at 7:52 AM on August 28, 2015
But studio supervision, a useful form of quality control on mediocre filmmakers, risks diluting the distinctive qualities of unusually gifted filmmakers such as Trank, regressing to the mean without fulfilling the norm.
Mmmmm. Chronicle was just sort of okay, I think it may be a bit early to paint Trank as a mistreated genius.
posted by Artw at 8:12 AM on August 28, 2015
Mmmmm. Chronicle was just sort of okay, I think it may be a bit early to paint Trank as a mistreated genius.
posted by Artw at 8:12 AM on August 28, 2015
With a bit of work, the FF film could have been an ok film. It wouldn't have been a great FF film, but still a good film. The early part holds promise and builds towards something, which is invariably dropped, burned and run over in the final half hour or so.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 12:50 PM on August 28, 2015
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 12:50 PM on August 28, 2015
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posted by Artw at 5:58 PM on August 6, 2015 [5 favorites]