Best of The Webb -- To You!
December 25, 2021 2:06 AM Subscribe
Happy JamesWebbLaunchMass! (Other holidays may apply in your household.) NASA have the live stream ready to go from 6.0am USA Eastern Time for and enduring piece of human legacy -- both the insights into the cosmos around us and for the management and funding processes which got this device where it is today.
Details of the science mission at WebbTelescope.org with some context set by a listicle of science numbers.
The post-launch installation will take 6 months to move the device to a microgravity site called a Lagrange Point trailing Earth's orbit and needs to go through a 350-item no-room-for-failure/no-options-for-recovery bootstrap list. It had a shock on the launchpad but should be okay to unfurl its hexagonal mirrors and a sun awning they nearly broke in testing as the project cost grew and timescales slipped.
Thanks to the ongoing efforts of Eric Berger and John Timmer at Ars Technica.
Details of the science mission at WebbTelescope.org with some context set by a listicle of science numbers.
The post-launch installation will take 6 months to move the device to a microgravity site called a Lagrange Point trailing Earth's orbit and needs to go through a 350-item no-room-for-failure/no-options-for-recovery bootstrap list. It had a shock on the launchpad but should be okay to unfurl its hexagonal mirrors and a sun awning they nearly broke in testing as the project cost grew and timescales slipped.
Thanks to the ongoing efforts of Eric Berger and John Timmer at Ars Technica.
vido about the telescope
It can correct its focus by remote control, but it's too fair away to send people to repair it, and it has to unfold on its own.
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 4:04 AM on December 25, 2021
It can correct its focus by remote control, but it's too fair away to send people to repair it, and it has to unfold on its own.
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 4:04 AM on December 25, 2021
Go teams! Here's hoping for a decade or more of exciting, unprecedented science.
posted by sindark at 4:10 AM on December 25, 2021
posted by sindark at 4:10 AM on December 25, 2021
T minus 10 minutes! Waiting on final weather report!
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 4:11 AM on December 25, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 4:11 AM on December 25, 2021 [1 favorite]
Good luck to all, but these folks don't need good luck!
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 4:12 AM on December 25, 2021
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 4:12 AM on December 25, 2021
It can correct its focus by remote control, but it's too fair away to send people to repair it, and it has to unfold on its own.
I've heard hopeful rumors there was a secret side project and some kind of design spec that may allow it to be refueled by a robotic craft. Which is good because the JWST only has a ten year fuel supply.
posted by loquacious at 4:13 AM on December 25, 2021 [4 favorites]
I've heard hopeful rumors there was a secret side project and some kind of design spec that may allow it to be refueled by a robotic craft. Which is good because the JWST only has a ten year fuel supply.
posted by loquacious at 4:13 AM on December 25, 2021 [4 favorites]
The board is green, everything is go for launch! T minus 2 minutes!
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 4:19 AM on December 25, 2021
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 4:19 AM on December 25, 2021
Also I'm glad I'm not the only person awake and up too early or too late for this.
Please don't blow up. Please don't blow up.
Finally, finally we get an optical space telescope that isn't a left over NRO hand me down that's a proper light bucket.
Imagine a world where we didn't put up dozens and dozens of military/spy reconnaissance satellites pointed at the ground and we aimed them at space instead. We could have had a huge multi-telescope interferometry array with just a few of those NRO satellites to make a super Hubble.
posted by loquacious at 4:20 AM on December 25, 2021 [15 favorites]
Please don't blow up. Please don't blow up.
Finally, finally we get an optical space telescope that isn't a left over NRO hand me down that's a proper light bucket.
Imagine a world where we didn't put up dozens and dozens of military/spy reconnaissance satellites pointed at the ground and we aimed them at space instead. We could have had a huge multi-telescope interferometry array with just a few of those NRO satellites to make a super Hubble.
posted by loquacious at 4:20 AM on December 25, 2021 [15 favorites]
It didn't blow up!
posted by zardoz at 4:22 AM on December 25, 2021 [10 favorites]
posted by zardoz at 4:22 AM on December 25, 2021 [10 favorites]
Liftoff and looking good!
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 4:23 AM on December 25, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 4:23 AM on December 25, 2021 [1 favorite]
Fairings ejected at 3:30 into flight, it's freeeeeee!
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 4:25 AM on December 25, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 4:25 AM on December 25, 2021 [2 favorites]
That was exciting! Yay space binoculars!
posted by Kattullus at 4:26 AM on December 25, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by Kattullus at 4:26 AM on December 25, 2021 [1 favorite]
1st stage jettisoned, 8+ minutes into flight, 2nd stage firing for 16 minutes and everything i going silky smooth (technical term).
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 4:30 AM on December 25, 2021 [3 favorites]
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 4:30 AM on December 25, 2021 [3 favorites]
I can’t tell you how many years I’ve been looking forward to this telescope being up in space, it feels almost unreal that it’s finally left the planet.
posted by Kattullus at 4:35 AM on December 25, 2021 [6 favorites]
posted by Kattullus at 4:35 AM on December 25, 2021 [6 favorites]
l'étage est calme
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 4:38 AM on December 25, 2021 [3 favorites]
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 4:38 AM on December 25, 2021 [3 favorites]
I almost forgot this was happening this morning until I came across a reference to it on reddit, and turned on NASA TV literally within 30 seconds of liftoff. This is great!
posted by Ipsifendus at 4:39 AM on December 25, 2021 [3 favorites]
posted by Ipsifendus at 4:39 AM on December 25, 2021 [3 favorites]
Can’t say what a big deal this is to me. So glad it got off the ground smoothly. Excited to follow its unfurling over the next few weeks.
posted by Devils Rancher at 4:41 AM on December 25, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by Devils Rancher at 4:41 AM on December 25, 2021 [2 favorites]
This is the earliest I've gotten up on Christmas since I was about 10 years old.
posted by Hatashran at 4:42 AM on December 25, 2021 [23 favorites]
posted by Hatashran at 4:42 AM on December 25, 2021 [23 favorites]
Go Webb!
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 4:48 AM on December 25, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 4:48 AM on December 25, 2021 [1 favorite]
If you want an idea of how big this spacecraft is, check this out: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:JWST_people.jpg
posted by loquacious at 4:49 AM on December 25, 2021 [6 favorites]
posted by loquacious at 4:49 AM on December 25, 2021 [6 favorites]
I'm watching NASA TV and it's eerily calm
whoops, the telescope just separated from the 2nd stage and everyone broke out in applause. Neat view from the 2nd stage as the telescope floats away.
Solar array deploying, we can see it from that 2nd stage, it's on its own power now!
Evidently the launch was textbook, with no errors. Go baby go!
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 4:52 AM on December 25, 2021 [4 favorites]
whoops, the telescope just separated from the 2nd stage and everyone broke out in applause. Neat view from the 2nd stage as the telescope floats away.
Solar array deploying, we can see it from that 2nd stage, it's on its own power now!
Evidently the launch was textbook, with no errors. Go baby go!
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 4:52 AM on December 25, 2021 [4 favorites]
The telescope has successfully separated from the launch vehicle.
Of course, there are still dozens of steps in the deployment process. Does anyone know of a publicly available list, schedule, etc.? I'd kinda like to follow the mission over the coming days and weeks, and keep abreast of each step.
posted by escape from the potato planet at 4:52 AM on December 25, 2021 [3 favorites]
Of course, there are still dozens of steps in the deployment process. Does anyone know of a publicly available list, schedule, etc.? I'd kinda like to follow the mission over the coming days and weeks, and keep abreast of each step.
posted by escape from the potato planet at 4:52 AM on December 25, 2021 [3 favorites]
What Happens After the James Webb Telescope Is Launched? A Six-Month Roadmap
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 4:54 AM on December 25, 2021 [7 favorites]
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 4:54 AM on December 25, 2021 [7 favorites]
I found this timeline, but it's fairly high-level.
posted by escape from the potato planet at 4:54 AM on December 25, 2021 [5 favorites]
posted by escape from the potato planet at 4:54 AM on December 25, 2021 [5 favorites]
Perfect – thanks, Tshbo!
posted by escape from the potato planet at 4:55 AM on December 25, 2021
posted by escape from the potato planet at 4:55 AM on December 25, 2021
https://jwst.nasa.gov/content/webbLaunch/whereIsWebb.html
posted by Clowder of bats at 4:55 AM on December 25, 2021 [13 favorites]
posted by Clowder of bats at 4:55 AM on December 25, 2021 [13 favorites]
>Excited to follow its unfurling over the next few weeks.
Only 344 steps in total, those in the next two weeks, NASA blogs lists key milestones after launch.
posted by k3ninho at 4:55 AM on December 25, 2021 [3 favorites]
Only 344 steps in total, those in the next two weeks, NASA blogs lists key milestones after launch.
posted by k3ninho at 4:55 AM on December 25, 2021 [3 favorites]
Is there an issue with early deploy of a solar panel?
Yea, good liftoff!
posted by sammyo at 4:56 AM on December 25, 2021
Yea, good liftoff!
posted by sammyo at 4:56 AM on December 25, 2021
Is there an issue with early deploy of a solar panel?
None was reported, it evidently opened right on time.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 5:01 AM on December 25, 2021
None was reported, it evidently opened right on time.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 5:01 AM on December 25, 2021
This so exciting. I really needed something positive happening.
posted by octothorpe at 5:10 AM on December 25, 2021 [4 favorites]
posted by octothorpe at 5:10 AM on December 25, 2021 [4 favorites]
What a wonderful Christmas gift! The human race might be pretty much a disaster, but somehow we can get together and do things like this.
Waiting eagerly for first light.
posted by BrashTech at 5:26 AM on December 25, 2021 [3 favorites]
Waiting eagerly for first light.
posted by BrashTech at 5:26 AM on December 25, 2021 [3 favorites]
The view of the solar panel unfurling is breathtaking.
posted by Catblack at 5:30 AM on December 25, 2021 [4 favorites]
posted by Catblack at 5:30 AM on December 25, 2021 [4 favorites]
Up at 6:30 on Xmas morning, super excited, felt like being a kid again! Then Chris Gebhardt just weeping on the nasaspaceflight.com stream was the sweetest thing. Catching the solar panels deploying was amazing. What a launch!
posted by rhamphorhynchus at 5:42 AM on December 25, 2021
posted by rhamphorhynchus at 5:42 AM on December 25, 2021
!!!! awesome
posted by lalochezia at 5:48 AM on December 25, 2021
posted by lalochezia at 5:48 AM on December 25, 2021
A nearly flawless launch except for an anomaly during re-entry of the upper stage where a man flying a sleigh pulled by 8 reindeer entered the restricted airspace and appears to have been involved in a collision.
posted by interogative mood at 5:59 AM on December 25, 2021 [4 favorites]
posted by interogative mood at 5:59 AM on December 25, 2021 [4 favorites]
Been waiting for this to get off the ground safely for a while. 6.5 meter primary mirror at the L2 point, well shielded from the sun? Provided all goes well *knock on wood* we should be getting some mind blowing images. I know that’s not exactly the main mission, they’re after more scientific observations and data, but I’m looking forward to seeing what they get that they want to show off.
Also this post has the perfect headline for Metafilter.
posted by azpenguin at 6:03 AM on December 25, 2021 [3 favorites]
Also this post has the perfect headline for Metafilter.
posted by azpenguin at 6:03 AM on December 25, 2021 [3 favorites]
So stressful, but everything looks great so far. A lovely reminder that humanity can work together on big things... we need that heading into 2022.
posted by bcd at 6:16 AM on December 25, 2021 [7 favorites]
posted by bcd at 6:16 AM on December 25, 2021 [7 favorites]
It's been so long to get to this moment. I worked on a tiny piece of the JWST program. My role on JWST was to test one of the many crucial subsystems we happened to contribute. That was back in 2008-2010 when we thought JWST would launch in 2014.
Believe me, each group that worked on a specific part of this machine will be holding their breath during their babies task in this long sequence of events to "first-light" and confirmation of "ready-for-science".
I also have software running on the Hubble Space Telescope. That was a scary feeling when they first turned on the new instruments we built. My software was the software that made it come alive and told earth that everything started up as expected and we were ready to roll.
I feel so blessed to have had the opportunity.
posted by Increase at 6:36 AM on December 25, 2021 [104 favorites]
Believe me, each group that worked on a specific part of this machine will be holding their breath during their babies task in this long sequence of events to "first-light" and confirmation of "ready-for-science".
I also have software running on the Hubble Space Telescope. That was a scary feeling when they first turned on the new instruments we built. My software was the software that made it come alive and told earth that everything started up as expected and we were ready to roll.
I feel so blessed to have had the opportunity.
posted by Increase at 6:36 AM on December 25, 2021 [104 favorites]
I feel so blessed to have had the opportunity.
(heart react)
posted by panama joe at 7:02 AM on December 25, 2021 [1 favorite]
(heart react)
posted by panama joe at 7:02 AM on December 25, 2021 [1 favorite]
an anomaly during re-entry of the upper stage
No that was taken care of pre- launch.
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 7:24 AM on December 25, 2021 [3 favorites]
No that was taken care of pre- launch.
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 7:24 AM on December 25, 2021 [3 favorites]
MetaFilter: Blast off the Webb
posted by chavenet at 7:53 AM on December 25, 2021 [14 favorites]
posted by chavenet at 7:53 AM on December 25, 2021 [14 favorites]
I can’t tell you how many years I’ve been looking forward to this
Slate, yesterday: Why Astronomers are 'Crying and Throwing Up Everywhere' over tomorrow's launch.
posted by Rash at 8:22 AM on December 25, 2021 [2 favorites]
Slate, yesterday: Why Astronomers are 'Crying and Throwing Up Everywhere' over tomorrow's launch.
posted by Rash at 8:22 AM on December 25, 2021 [2 favorites]
Imagine having to build, say, a car that A) you can never take to the shop, B) you can never take to the gas station, C) you only ever get one shot at building it, D) it needs to self-assemble after getting the shit kicked out of it, and then, E) it needs to keep working reliably for 10+ years. In Alaska. Imagine that, and you're not even close.
If this ends up working, it'll be one of the awesomest things humanity has ever achieved. BUT holy fuck, is this necessary? I mean, is there honestly no less scary way to do this?
What I'm saying is, NASA has this streak of extreme cowboy cockiness that I find disturbing. Is it strictly necessary to eliminate ALL redundancy? Would it not be cheaper and easier and less nerve-racking to launch a bunch of redundant modules, assembled in orbit by people who have the latest information and know how to fix shit?
In the current mission, there are literally hundreds of single critical failure points, and they can't all be necessary. A single spring-loaded rod thingy doesn't work, so the heat shield doesn't deploy right, and the mission is fucked forever. Because at that point we're half-way to L2. Well, I guess they do have plans to wiggle the spacecraft a little if things go wrong. Which is basically like adding a robot that'll hit it with a wrench.
Anyway I really really hope it'll all work perfectly. I'll be super-impressed, and I'll be happy for weeks just thinking about it. But NASA projects often seem like somebody saying 'Yeah buddy, we're THAT good and we don't even give a fuck.' And nobody's good enough to be OK with hundreds of sequential failure points. I think. At the very least it's a sign of strange-ass risk management. Anyway, seriously, fingers crossed.
posted by kleinsteradikaleminderheit at 8:23 AM on December 25, 2021 [9 favorites]
If this ends up working, it'll be one of the awesomest things humanity has ever achieved. BUT holy fuck, is this necessary? I mean, is there honestly no less scary way to do this?
What I'm saying is, NASA has this streak of extreme cowboy cockiness that I find disturbing. Is it strictly necessary to eliminate ALL redundancy? Would it not be cheaper and easier and less nerve-racking to launch a bunch of redundant modules, assembled in orbit by people who have the latest information and know how to fix shit?
In the current mission, there are literally hundreds of single critical failure points, and they can't all be necessary. A single spring-loaded rod thingy doesn't work, so the heat shield doesn't deploy right, and the mission is fucked forever. Because at that point we're half-way to L2. Well, I guess they do have plans to wiggle the spacecraft a little if things go wrong. Which is basically like adding a robot that'll hit it with a wrench.
Anyway I really really hope it'll all work perfectly. I'll be super-impressed, and I'll be happy for weeks just thinking about it. But NASA projects often seem like somebody saying 'Yeah buddy, we're THAT good and we don't even give a fuck.' And nobody's good enough to be OK with hundreds of sequential failure points. I think. At the very least it's a sign of strange-ass risk management. Anyway, seriously, fingers crossed.
posted by kleinsteradikaleminderheit at 8:23 AM on December 25, 2021 [9 favorites]
And all these cool 'maker' style robots (which are very cool) should include the launch simulation: 10 minutes in a paint shaker, then run autonomously for a few months...
posted by sammyo at 8:31 AM on December 25, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by sammyo at 8:31 AM on December 25, 2021 [1 favorite]
METAFILTER: it feels almost unreal that it’s finally left the planet
posted by philip-random at 8:43 AM on December 25, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by philip-random at 8:43 AM on December 25, 2021 [2 favorites]
Would it not be cheaper and easier and less nerve-racking to launch a bunch of redundant modules, assembled in orbit by people..?
Nah. Putting people on orbit is about as expensive, difficult, and nerve-wracking as it gets (though things are probably better now than the Shuttle days). Northrop Grumman supposedly got the JWST contract because they built a bunch of large NRO SIGINT birds, which [are rumoured to] have similar deployment mechanisms. Thankfully, JWST did not meet the same fate as Zuma!
posted by rhamphorhynchus at 8:59 AM on December 25, 2021 [4 favorites]
Nah. Putting people on orbit is about as expensive, difficult, and nerve-wracking as it gets (though things are probably better now than the Shuttle days). Northrop Grumman supposedly got the JWST contract because they built a bunch of large NRO SIGINT birds, which [are rumoured to] have similar deployment mechanisms. Thankfully, JWST did not meet the same fate as Zuma!
posted by rhamphorhynchus at 8:59 AM on December 25, 2021 [4 favorites]
In the current mission, there are literally hundreds of single critical failure points, and they can't all be necessary.
It sounds like a lot of the Single Points of Failure are related to sunshield deployment. Release points are either open or closed - if one of them doesn't open, then ¯\_(ツ_/¯.
Would it not be cheaper and easier and less nerve-racking to launch a bunch of redundant modules, assembled in orbit by people who have the latest information and know how to fix shit?
JWST FAQ: Why not assemble Webb in orbit?
posted by zamboni at 9:00 AM on December 25, 2021 [4 favorites]
It sounds like a lot of the Single Points of Failure are related to sunshield deployment. Release points are either open or closed - if one of them doesn't open, then ¯\_(ツ_/¯.
Would it not be cheaper and easier and less nerve-racking to launch a bunch of redundant modules, assembled in orbit by people who have the latest information and know how to fix shit?
JWST FAQ: Why not assemble Webb in orbit?
posted by zamboni at 9:00 AM on December 25, 2021 [4 favorites]
What I'm saying is, NASA has this streak of extreme cowboy cockiness that I find disturbing. Is it strictly necessary to eliminate ALL redundancy? Would it not be cheaper and easier and less nerve-racking to launch a bunch of redundant modules, assembled in orbit by people who have the latest information and know how to fix shit?
Launching people in orbit to assemble this in order would have added a huge amount of time and expense to an already late and over budgeted item.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 9:02 AM on December 25, 2021 [2 favorites]
Launching people in orbit to assemble this in order would have added a huge amount of time and expense to an already late and over budgeted item.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 9:02 AM on December 25, 2021 [2 favorites]
"That’s what Christmas is all about,
Charlie Brown.”
-Linus
posted by clavdivs at 9:05 AM on December 25, 2021 [5 favorites]
Charlie Brown.”
-Linus
posted by clavdivs at 9:05 AM on December 25, 2021 [5 favorites]
Time for my space rant: we need machine shops in space.
Which implies an entire infrastructure and a full supply chain economy, but we are a ways away, (cough) SpaceX, may change that.
posted by sammyo at 9:06 AM on December 25, 2021
Which implies an entire infrastructure and a full supply chain economy, but we are a ways away, (cough) SpaceX, may change that.
posted by sammyo at 9:06 AM on December 25, 2021
Although JWST was largely design complete before spacex even existed.
posted by sammyo at 9:11 AM on December 25, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by sammyo at 9:11 AM on December 25, 2021 [2 favorites]
If we had bases on the moon, paticularly on the dark side, then we could field telescopes better than Webb much easier. Easy to access to fix, to tinker with instruments while it's in operation, etc. A real working astronomer's scope.
Whether that would have worked for the Webb I'm not sure. It operates at -225C and the moon is -183C at night. So it might be in a range that needs space.
There are plans for lunar telescopes for looking further back than Webb:
NASA Might Put a Huge Telescope on the Far Side of the Moon.
But NASA's funding model has ... issues that make this kind of progessive development hard. See the past lunar programs. See also Artemis IMHO.
posted by joeyh at 9:26 AM on December 25, 2021 [1 favorite]
Whether that would have worked for the Webb I'm not sure. It operates at -225C and the moon is -183C at night. So it might be in a range that needs space.
There are plans for lunar telescopes for looking further back than Webb:
NASA Might Put a Huge Telescope on the Far Side of the Moon.
But NASA's funding model has ... issues that make this kind of progessive development hard. See the past lunar programs. See also Artemis IMHO.
posted by joeyh at 9:26 AM on December 25, 2021 [1 favorite]
I likewise worked on JWST for a couple years, nearly 8 years ago on the MIRI instrument.
It feels weird to have worked on MIRI for a couple years, and then after that I worked on Mars 2020, a project which kicked off, was built, launched, landed, and has taken core samples on Mars, all before JWST launched.
posted by tclark at 10:01 AM on December 25, 2021 [23 favorites]
It feels weird to have worked on MIRI for a couple years, and then after that I worked on Mars 2020, a project which kicked off, was built, launched, landed, and has taken core samples on Mars, all before JWST launched.
posted by tclark at 10:01 AM on December 25, 2021 [23 favorites]
> particularly on the dark side
Not to nitpick, but there's no dark side of the moon. I mean, yes, one side of the moon is dark at any point in time, but there's no permanently dark side. I blame Pink Floyd, for this and many other things.
posted by kleinsteradikaleminderheit at 11:07 AM on December 25, 2021 [11 favorites]
Not to nitpick, but there's no dark side of the moon. I mean, yes, one side of the moon is dark at any point in time, but there's no permanently dark side. I blame Pink Floyd, for this and many other things.
posted by kleinsteradikaleminderheit at 11:07 AM on December 25, 2021 [11 favorites]
Not to nitpick, but there's no dark side of the moon.
Matter of fact, it's all dark.
posted by panama joe at 11:20 AM on December 25, 2021 [7 favorites]
Matter of fact, it's all dark.
posted by panama joe at 11:20 AM on December 25, 2021 [7 favorites]
Godspeed, Jimmy Weeb!
posted by rodlymight at 11:24 AM on December 25, 2021
posted by rodlymight at 11:24 AM on December 25, 2021
I'd really like to underscore the Where Is Webb page that was linked above. It's a dashboard that updates constantly, and as stages of the mission go on, there will be video links and stuff. It's really informative, and is the best page I've seen for keeping track of the mission.
posted by hippybear at 11:36 AM on December 25, 2021 [15 favorites]
posted by hippybear at 11:36 AM on December 25, 2021 [15 favorites]
>Time for my space rant: we need machine shops in space.
This is the content I'm here for. I'd like to get involved in building robots that can refine the asteroids of the asteroid belt. We need to grind up, dissolve and fractionally purify slag in centrifuges (or pull it apart atom by atom with laser spectrometry), but first let's build those centrifuge robots in Earth orbit to learn what works and doesn't ... and to recycle the mass we've already given kinetic energy to get it outside the atmosphere.
posted by k3ninho at 11:46 AM on December 25, 2021 [1 favorite]
This is the content I'm here for. I'd like to get involved in building robots that can refine the asteroids of the asteroid belt. We need to grind up, dissolve and fractionally purify slag in centrifuges (or pull it apart atom by atom with laser spectrometry), but first let's build those centrifuge robots in Earth orbit to learn what works and doesn't ... and to recycle the mass we've already given kinetic energy to get it outside the atmosphere.
posted by k3ninho at 11:46 AM on December 25, 2021 [1 favorite]
Not to trivialize but I'd think centrifuges in a vacuum would be extraordinarily cost effective. Stuff like super high quality bearings that need to fight the pull of gravity and the absence of any dust would make refining work well.
A nice water asteroid, or anything that can make large amounts of cheap reaction mass in orbit would make all the difference.
Anyway, the second step: Solar Panel deploy is successful! Yay!!
posted by sammyo at 11:56 AM on December 25, 2021
A nice water asteroid, or anything that can make large amounts of cheap reaction mass in orbit would make all the difference.
Anyway, the second step: Solar Panel deploy is successful! Yay!!
posted by sammyo at 11:56 AM on December 25, 2021
Calvin and Hobbes > “There’s Venus, there’s Mars, and there’s Jupiter….”
posted by cenoxo at 12:08 PM on December 25, 2021 [4 favorites]
posted by cenoxo at 12:08 PM on December 25, 2021 [4 favorites]
Zamboni: What Brandon said. For perspective, from way back in the 80s, when DOD *mandated* every Air Force satellite be launched on the Shuttle..... one comm sat program I was familiar with ended up costing roughly 3x per vehicle, mostly due to the triple redundancy and endless extra testing and red tape associated with being "man-rated". And then I think I remember only two or three of the six got shuttle rides after all. What a waste.
Assembling in orbit might make sense from a reliability and not putting all your eggs in one basket POV, but lowering cost? Yeah, no. The opposite.
posted by cfraenkel at 1:00 PM on December 25, 2021 [3 favorites]
Assembling in orbit might make sense from a reliability and not putting all your eggs in one basket POV, but lowering cost? Yeah, no. The opposite.
posted by cfraenkel at 1:00 PM on December 25, 2021 [3 favorites]
Is it feasible or desirable to use JWST and Hubble together either as ends of a baseline / parallax system and/or to supplement each other’s viewing spectra?
posted by Rumple at 1:05 PM on December 25, 2021
posted by Rumple at 1:05 PM on December 25, 2021
> "Is it feasible or desirable to use JWST and Hubble together either as ends of a baseline / parallax system..."
No; there wouldn't really be any point to using them this way. There are much easier methods of measuring parallax.
"... and/or to supplement each other’s viewing spectra?"
Absolutely. If you wanted to get a spectra of something all the way from the Mid-IR up through the ultraviolet, using those two together would not only work but would probably be the only way to do it right now.
posted by kyrademon at 3:07 PM on December 25, 2021 [4 favorites]
No; there wouldn't really be any point to using them this way. There are much easier methods of measuring parallax.
"... and/or to supplement each other’s viewing spectra?"
Absolutely. If you wanted to get a spectra of something all the way from the Mid-IR up through the ultraviolet, using those two together would not only work but would probably be the only way to do it right now.
posted by kyrademon at 3:07 PM on December 25, 2021 [4 favorites]
Is it feasible or desirable to use JWST and Hubble together either as ends of a baseline / parallax system and/or to supplement each other’s viewing spectra?
I'm no space telescope surgeon but from what I understand I don't think so, at least not beyond the multi-spectrum research and cross referencing that already happens with astronomy data sets and research work.
Their visible spectrum and and goals are far enough apart that I don't think it would be feasible to use them for direct interferometry or binocular sensing.
The JWST's instrument package and research goals are really specifically tuned to far infrared to try to detect very cold and red-shifted objects to facilitate the farthest and oldest views possible with optical wavelengths with a focus on the earliest possible formation of stars and galaxies that arose after the "dark age" epoch of the proposed big bang model that exists between cosmic microwave background radiation and visible light.
Something we shouldn't expect from JWST is the glorious false color human-visible spectrum images we've been getting from Hubble. It doesn't even have the sensors for it, and there really isn't a way to design a far infrared telescope with the same mirrors, structure and optics/sensor packages to do human-visible light because the energy levels would wreck the far infrared sensors and packages, and all of the optical mirrors and filters used for JWST need to filter out and block that visible spectrum light on purpose.
We will (hopefully) get all kinds of fantastic data and visual imagery from it but it's going to all be false color and a bit more like a radio telescope or x-ray observatory in that it's mainly just data and not pretty pictures like Hubble has provided.
posted by loquacious at 3:44 PM on December 25, 2021 [3 favorites]
I'm no space telescope surgeon but from what I understand I don't think so, at least not beyond the multi-spectrum research and cross referencing that already happens with astronomy data sets and research work.
Their visible spectrum and and goals are far enough apart that I don't think it would be feasible to use them for direct interferometry or binocular sensing.
The JWST's instrument package and research goals are really specifically tuned to far infrared to try to detect very cold and red-shifted objects to facilitate the farthest and oldest views possible with optical wavelengths with a focus on the earliest possible formation of stars and galaxies that arose after the "dark age" epoch of the proposed big bang model that exists between cosmic microwave background radiation and visible light.
Something we shouldn't expect from JWST is the glorious false color human-visible spectrum images we've been getting from Hubble. It doesn't even have the sensors for it, and there really isn't a way to design a far infrared telescope with the same mirrors, structure and optics/sensor packages to do human-visible light because the energy levels would wreck the far infrared sensors and packages, and all of the optical mirrors and filters used for JWST need to filter out and block that visible spectrum light on purpose.
We will (hopefully) get all kinds of fantastic data and visual imagery from it but it's going to all be false color and a bit more like a radio telescope or x-ray observatory in that it's mainly just data and not pretty pictures like Hubble has provided.
posted by loquacious at 3:44 PM on December 25, 2021 [3 favorites]
If this ends up working, it'll be one of the awesomest things humanity has ever achieved. BUT holy fuck, is this necessary? I mean, is there honestly no less scary way to do this?
We could have had a constellation of space stations in GEO, staffed with the finest union workers, to build them without having to worry about lifting them out of the gravity well.
posted by mikelieman at 4:21 PM on December 25, 2021
We could have had a constellation of space stations in GEO, staffed with the finest union workers, to build them without having to worry about lifting them out of the gravity well.
posted by mikelieman at 4:21 PM on December 25, 2021
We could do lots of things. Total costs for the Webb Telescope will run about 10 billion.
The United States Navy is building 10 Gerald R Ford class aircraft carriers at 12-13 billion a pop, plus untold billions to operate them.
The mind boggles at the science we could do if our priorities as a nation and a world were different.
posted by rockindata at 4:42 PM on December 25, 2021 [13 favorites]
The United States Navy is building 10 Gerald R Ford class aircraft carriers at 12-13 billion a pop, plus untold billions to operate them.
The mind boggles at the science we could do if our priorities as a nation and a world were different.
posted by rockindata at 4:42 PM on December 25, 2021 [13 favorites]
> "... with a focus on the earliest possible formation of stars and galaxies..."
I feel that this unintentionally understates the variety of uses for this telescope.
If you look at what's scheduled for the Early Release Science (DD-ERS) program, the Cycle 1 General Observers (GO) program, and the Guaranteed Time Observations (GTO) program, the broad categories include:
Planets and Planet Formation; Exoplanets and Disks; Brown Dwarfs; Debris Disks and Photodissociation Regions; Extra-solar Planets
Solar System; Solar System Astronomy
Stellar Physics; Stellar Populations; Stellar Physics and Stellar Types; Stellar Populations and the Interstellar Medium; Protostars, Protostellar Disks, and Young Stellar Objects; Star Clusters, Star Formation Regions, Planetary Nebulae, and Galactic Transients
Galaxies and Intergalactic Medium; Galaxies; Intergalactic Medium and Circumgalactic Medium; Clusters of Galaxies; Large Scale Structure of the Universe; Deep Fields; High-redshift Quasars and Galaxy Assembly; Targeted Galaxies
Massive Black Holes and Their Host Galaxies; Supermassive Black Holes and AGN
posted by kyrademon at 5:21 PM on December 25, 2021 [9 favorites]
I feel that this unintentionally understates the variety of uses for this telescope.
If you look at what's scheduled for the Early Release Science (DD-ERS) program, the Cycle 1 General Observers (GO) program, and the Guaranteed Time Observations (GTO) program, the broad categories include:
Planets and Planet Formation; Exoplanets and Disks; Brown Dwarfs; Debris Disks and Photodissociation Regions; Extra-solar Planets
Solar System; Solar System Astronomy
Stellar Physics; Stellar Populations; Stellar Physics and Stellar Types; Stellar Populations and the Interstellar Medium; Protostars, Protostellar Disks, and Young Stellar Objects; Star Clusters, Star Formation Regions, Planetary Nebulae, and Galactic Transients
Galaxies and Intergalactic Medium; Galaxies; Intergalactic Medium and Circumgalactic Medium; Clusters of Galaxies; Large Scale Structure of the Universe; Deep Fields; High-redshift Quasars and Galaxy Assembly; Targeted Galaxies
Massive Black Holes and Their Host Galaxies; Supermassive Black Holes and AGN
posted by kyrademon at 5:21 PM on December 25, 2021 [9 favorites]
If we had bases on the moon, paticularly on the dark side, then we could field telescopes better than Webb much easier.
Not better than Webb at what Webb does. There's way too much ambient heat even in the moon's night side for the IR astronomy it is going to do.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 7:04 PM on December 25, 2021 [10 favorites]
Not better than Webb at what Webb does. There's way too much ambient heat even in the moon's night side for the IR astronomy it is going to do.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 7:04 PM on December 25, 2021 [10 favorites]
I am so happy today about this.
posted by y2karl at 1:17 AM on December 26, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by y2karl at 1:17 AM on December 26, 2021 [2 favorites]
An astrophysicist’s live reaction to the James Webb Space Telescope Launch - YouTube. Dr. Becky also has a few videos back covering Webb's reasoning, functioning, importance, and all that stuff.
posted by zengargoyle at 1:34 AM on December 26, 2021 [4 favorites]
posted by zengargoyle at 1:34 AM on December 26, 2021 [4 favorites]
Not to nitpick, but there's no dark side of the moon. I mean, yes, one side of the moon is dark at any point in time, but there's no permanently dark side. I blame Pink Floyd, for this and many other things.
Well, it depends what you mean by dark. The moon is tidally locked, so most of the far side of the moon is always invisible to us here on earth (due to its orbital angle etc, we can see a bit more than one hemisphere in total over time). It wasn't until the soviets sent a satellite probe to take photos that we knew what the far side even looked like, and only 24 people have ever seen it with their own eyes in lunar orbit. So dark as in 'unseen'.
Of course, it does receive sunlight same as the earth-facing side as you say; the phase of the moon doesn't just apply to the hemisphere facing us! For an ultra sensitive infrared telescope it's no good, as the lunar surface is 90 degC too warm even during the lunar night (and much warmer in the lunar day), so the heat from earth would be neglible in comparison. Though apparently the reflected heat from the earth and moon is still too much even in earth orbit, which is why the JWST was sent out to L2 so it can keep all three bodies always on the 'hot' side of the sunshield while the telescope gets an unobstructed view of deep space.
For a radio telescope though, the far side of the moon would be amazing. It's well outside the ionosphere so could see much longer wavelengths than we can on earth - probing much further back in time - and being in the radio shadow of the moon would be an excellent shield against all the earth and earth-orbit emissions, and sun source emissions during local lunar night.
There is a proposal to do exactly that, the Lunar Crater Radio Telescope - send wall-climbing robots to string wire mesh across a 3.5km-wide crater to build the biggest radio telescope in the solar system, though it's only a concept at this point AFAIK.
posted by Absolutely No You-Know-What at 7:46 AM on December 26, 2021 [10 favorites]
Well, it depends what you mean by dark. The moon is tidally locked, so most of the far side of the moon is always invisible to us here on earth (due to its orbital angle etc, we can see a bit more than one hemisphere in total over time). It wasn't until the soviets sent a satellite probe to take photos that we knew what the far side even looked like, and only 24 people have ever seen it with their own eyes in lunar orbit. So dark as in 'unseen'.
Of course, it does receive sunlight same as the earth-facing side as you say; the phase of the moon doesn't just apply to the hemisphere facing us! For an ultra sensitive infrared telescope it's no good, as the lunar surface is 90 degC too warm even during the lunar night (and much warmer in the lunar day), so the heat from earth would be neglible in comparison. Though apparently the reflected heat from the earth and moon is still too much even in earth orbit, which is why the JWST was sent out to L2 so it can keep all three bodies always on the 'hot' side of the sunshield while the telescope gets an unobstructed view of deep space.
For a radio telescope though, the far side of the moon would be amazing. It's well outside the ionosphere so could see much longer wavelengths than we can on earth - probing much further back in time - and being in the radio shadow of the moon would be an excellent shield against all the earth and earth-orbit emissions, and sun source emissions during local lunar night.
There is a proposal to do exactly that, the Lunar Crater Radio Telescope - send wall-climbing robots to string wire mesh across a 3.5km-wide crater to build the biggest radio telescope in the solar system, though it's only a concept at this point AFAIK.
posted by Absolutely No You-Know-What at 7:46 AM on December 26, 2021 [10 favorites]
Nerdily excited by this!
To avoid my spoil-sport side, I'm looking for alternative suggestions for what to call it, given how problematic the namesake was. I do feel like I'm seeing a lot of JWST usage, perhaps to avoid using his full name.
So, who's got something better than Telescopy McSpacehead?
posted by Mngo at 8:26 AM on December 26, 2021 [1 favorite]
To avoid my spoil-sport side, I'm looking for alternative suggestions for what to call it, given how problematic the namesake was. I do feel like I'm seeing a lot of JWST usage, perhaps to avoid using his full name.
So, who's got something better than Telescopy McSpacehead?
posted by Mngo at 8:26 AM on December 26, 2021 [1 favorite]
BFT for Big Fucking Telescope. Seems appropriate and easy to remember.
posted by hippybear at 12:24 PM on December 26, 2021 [4 favorites]
posted by hippybear at 12:24 PM on December 26, 2021 [4 favorites]
I'd go with the Infra-Red Telescope (the IRT). It's really the first one, right?
Why do these great space-based observatories get human names attached to them, like the sponsor of a stadium? The Space Telescope was called just that for a long time, through its lengthy development and eventual shuttle launch. Then suddenly it was named after Edwin Hubble (1889-1953) who, like James Webb, had zero involvement in the project, having passed away years prior.
posted by Rash at 7:48 PM on December 26, 2021 [1 favorite]
Why do these great space-based observatories get human names attached to them, like the sponsor of a stadium? The Space Telescope was called just that for a long time, through its lengthy development and eventual shuttle launch. Then suddenly it was named after Edwin Hubble (1889-1953) who, like James Webb, had zero involvement in the project, having passed away years prior.
posted by Rash at 7:48 PM on December 26, 2021 [1 favorite]
NASA published (in 2010) a wonderfully detailed guide to the Integrated Science Instrument Module System (ISIM) for space nerds about the compute and electrical components on the JWST and the complexity of thermal management for equipment running at 300K near IR sensors at 50K or lower. Not sure exactly how accurate it is as of launch date, although these things tend to be fairly static once approved.
For the programming language nerds there are some interesting details, such as:
Jokes aside, the ISIM document is a really fascinating overview and well worth reading!
posted by autopilot at 12:50 AM on December 27, 2021 [1 favorite]
For the programming language nerds there are some interesting details, such as:
The ISIM Flight Software (IFSW) is composed of a set of independent tasks [...] that have all been developed using IBM® Rational® Rose Real-Time® (RRT), an object-oriented development environment that features visual design of tasks as state machines and definition of inter-task messaging as “ports” with “protocols”, and which utilizes conventions established in the Unified Modeling Language (UML)There is also discussion of dynamic control from the ground:
The primary command source in normal operations is the Script Processor Task (SP), which runs scripts written in JavaScript upon receiving a command to do so. The script execution is performed by a JavaScript engine running as separate task that supports ten concurrent JavaScripts running independently of each other. A set of extensions to the JavaScript language have been implemented that provide the interface to SP, which in turn can access ISIM FSW services through the standard task interface ports. [...]Which has led some jokers to ask "will the JWST's JavaScript framework be deprecated before it reaches L2?". Others asked a follow-up question about the propagation speed of deprecation and pondered if there is no preferred framework of reference.
The fact that the OSS is written in JavaScript and stored on-board as text files is significant because this gives the operations personnel greater visibility, control and flexibility over the telescope operations. As they learn the ramifications and subtleties of operating the instruments, they can modify the JavaScripts and, after thorough testing in a ground facility, they can simply replace an onboard file to make the change.
Jokes aside, the ISIM document is a really fascinating overview and well worth reading!
posted by autopilot at 12:50 AM on December 27, 2021 [1 favorite]
When it comes to software, there's also the Python library for science observations from the James Webb Space Telescope. Dunno what it does.
posted by the antecedent of that pronoun at 5:08 AM on December 27, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by the antecedent of that pronoun at 5:08 AM on December 27, 2021 [1 favorite]
I don't know who came up with it, but various bits of Space Twitter have been calling JWST the Just Wonderful Space Telescope.
posted by rhamphorhynchus at 8:04 PM on December 27, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by rhamphorhynchus at 8:04 PM on December 27, 2021 [2 favorites]
fore and aft sunshield pallets are reported to have deployed successfully
posted by the antecedent of that pronoun at 6:52 PM on December 28, 2021 [6 favorites]
posted by the antecedent of that pronoun at 6:52 PM on December 28, 2021 [6 favorites]
If you wondered about the "early(?)" deployment of the solar panel, this is the first explanation of it I've seen:
posted by the antecedent of that pronoun at 8:43 AM on December 29, 2021 [2 favorites]
The accuracy of the launch trajectory had another result: the timing of the solar array deployment. That deployment was executed automatically after separation from the Ariane 5 based on a stored command to deploy either when Webb reached a certain attitude toward the Sun ideal for capturing sunlight to power the observatory – or automatically at 33 minutes after launch. Because Webb was already in the correct attitude after separation from the Ariane 5 second stage, the solar array was able to deploy about a minute and a half after separation, approximately 29 minutes after launch.Other good news from the same article: The remaining fuel in JWST's tanks should allow for longer than a 10 year mission.
posted by the antecedent of that pronoun at 8:43 AM on December 29, 2021 [2 favorites]
First three layers of sunshield tightened!!!!
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:23 PM on January 3, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:23 PM on January 3, 2022 [2 favorites]
All five layers are deployed and tensioned!
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 11:12 AM on January 4, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 11:12 AM on January 4, 2022 [4 favorites]
Yeah, a lot of people are breathing easier now.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 11:53 AM on January 4, 2022
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 11:53 AM on January 4, 2022
The sunshield was by far my biggest worry. My second biggest is still to go, though, which is the mirror deploy. Definitely breathing a lot easier, but I'll still worry a bit until then.... and I probably won't entirely relax until the mirror segment actuation for focus is complete (this will take many weeks).
posted by tclark at 11:59 AM on January 4, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by tclark at 11:59 AM on January 4, 2022 [4 favorites]
The port mirrors are out, the starboard mirror is in progress.
NASA Live | NASA
News conference no earlier than 1:30 p.m. EST (US)
posted by zengargoyle at 8:59 AM on January 8, 2022 [1 favorite]
NASA Live | NASA
News conference no earlier than 1:30 p.m. EST (US)
posted by zengargoyle at 8:59 AM on January 8, 2022 [1 favorite]
And out and locked. What does that leave? Final insertion, test instruments... It's unfolded.
posted by zengargoyle at 12:14 PM on January 8, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by zengargoyle at 12:14 PM on January 8, 2022 [3 favorites]
Thanks for the link, zengargoyle! Always fun to listen to excited scientists.
posted by Kattullus at 12:20 PM on January 8, 2022
posted by Kattullus at 12:20 PM on January 8, 2022
And out and locked. What does that leave? Final insertion, test instruments... It's unfolded.
I've been to that sex party!
posted by hippybear at 12:40 PM on January 8, 2022
I've been to that sex party!
posted by hippybear at 12:40 PM on January 8, 2022
Precision with which Ariane 5 rocket delivered JWST means expected life now 20 years instead of 10. ESA was able to get this level of accuracy by essentially blueprinting the rocket.
posted by Mitheral at 9:18 PM on January 10, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by Mitheral at 9:18 PM on January 10, 2022 [1 favorite]
What does “blueprinting the rocket” mean?!
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 10:23 PM on January 10, 2022
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 10:23 PM on January 10, 2022
I haven't heard that phrase, but what they did was give NASA the very best of available parts when building it. They had a rocket engine that was spectacularly accurate in testing, for example, and so they saved that for NASA. ESA was being paid by getting 20 percent of of the observation slots, so they were highly motivated to extend the life of the mission.
posted by tavella at 7:57 AM on January 11, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by tavella at 7:57 AM on January 11, 2022 [2 favorites]
What does “blueprinting the rocket” mean?!
Engines (motor and rocket) work "good enough" if their parts are machined to relatively wide tolerances.
When you "blueprint an engine" you machine everything to the tightest possible tolerances. Your combustion chamber(s) are as close to EXACTLY the volume and geometry they're specified as possible. Your injectors inject *exactly* the right amount. This accuracy adds up and you end up with the performance which allows it to match the predicted trajectory with stunning accuracy.
posted by mikelieman at 8:10 AM on January 11, 2022 [2 favorites]
Engines (motor and rocket) work "good enough" if their parts are machined to relatively wide tolerances.
When you "blueprint an engine" you machine everything to the tightest possible tolerances. Your combustion chamber(s) are as close to EXACTLY the volume and geometry they're specified as possible. Your injectors inject *exactly* the right amount. This accuracy adds up and you end up with the performance which allows it to match the predicted trajectory with stunning accuracy.
posted by mikelieman at 8:10 AM on January 11, 2022 [2 favorites]
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