Home is always, always, always worth it.
October 3, 2022 1:26 AM Subscribe
Things that no longer comfort me Finding comfort in the wrong things kept me complacent. Perhaps it’s the same for you. This is a list of things that no longer comfort me, and why.
Don’t get me wrong, we all need to find some level of comfort in our daily surroundings & activities, otherwise we can no longer function. But if our culture and thought habits are the ones that are driving planetary-scale breakdown, not to mention wars, genocide and famines— not through any fault of our own, but because they have been shaped by extractive, exploitative, overproducing, overconsuming economies which moreover support anti-democratic governments— it’s high time to put them under scrutiny.
I actively felt worse reading this, and felt like that was sort of the point. Like maybe this article was telling me I was bad and should feel bad, and if I tried to feel any sort of optimism about anything then that made me worse.
posted by HypotheticalWoman at 2:43 AM on October 3, 2022 [43 favorites]
posted by HypotheticalWoman at 2:43 AM on October 3, 2022 [43 favorites]
Opposite reaction here. I have been feeling really bad for as long as I can remember. I learned about pollution in elementary school in the 1980s. The adults around me made it crystal clear that my generation was expected to fix it all. Remember the whole "I believe the children are the future" era? We kids were given a lot of songs but no instruction books. The adults around me continued to prioritize their personal comfort. My tiny heart broke.
I've spent my life (I'm 40 now) feeling helpless and horrified. I also feel responsible. I am responsible. I don't have kids because I can't imagine handing this mess down to them. We are all responsible for our home.
The article spoke to me and reminded me to take courage. Thanks for the post.
posted by RobinofFrocksley at 2:56 AM on October 3, 2022 [30 favorites]
I've spent my life (I'm 40 now) feeling helpless and horrified. I also feel responsible. I am responsible. I don't have kids because I can't imagine handing this mess down to them. We are all responsible for our home.
The article spoke to me and reminded me to take courage. Thanks for the post.
posted by RobinofFrocksley at 2:56 AM on October 3, 2022 [30 favorites]
Good for her I guess? I mean she is right that individual choices have jack shit to do with effective climate activism, and personal virtue is a HUGE pitfall for climate activists that distracts and exhausts energies in the utterly wrong direction.
But I really dislike the generalized wording she used in section titles.
posted by MiraK at 3:21 AM on October 3, 2022 [7 favorites]
But I really dislike the generalized wording she used in section titles.
posted by MiraK at 3:21 AM on October 3, 2022 [7 favorites]
I actively felt worse reading this, and felt like that was sort of the point. Like maybe this article was telling me I was bad and should feel bad, and if I tried to feel any sort of optimism about anything then that made me worse.
I'm sorry you walked away with that feeling, HypotheticalWoman. I found the article hopeful and encouraging, perhaps only because it gave voice to ways that I was feeling already, especially numbers 1, 2, 5, and 6. I hope you feel better.
posted by lazaruslong at 3:22 AM on October 3, 2022 [3 favorites]
I'm sorry you walked away with that feeling, HypotheticalWoman. I found the article hopeful and encouraging, perhaps only because it gave voice to ways that I was feeling already, especially numbers 1, 2, 5, and 6. I hope you feel better.
posted by lazaruslong at 3:22 AM on October 3, 2022 [3 favorites]
The problem is always finding the middle ground between denial and despair. This article is firmly anti-denial. But that's no good if it just plunges you into despair instead... and corporations seem to be encouraging people into climate doom and its resulting apathy:
posted by TheophileEscargot at 3:23 AM on October 3, 2022 [29 favorites]
You say that fossil fuel interests are not just fighting against renewable energy. They are also pushing the idea that it is too late—that climate change cannot be stopped, and it is pointless to try to do so at this stage.I think you need to maintain some kind of optimism, however limited. Sometimes I just think of Gandalf:
Conservative media are promoting people such as Guy McPherson, who says that we have 10 years left before exponential climate change literally extinguishes life on Earth and that we should somehow find a way to cope with our imminent demise. I call it “climate doom porn.” It’s very popular, it really sells magazines, but it’s incredibly disabling. If you believe that we have no agency, then why take any action? I’m not saying that fossil fuel companies are funding people like McPherson; I have no evidence of that. But when you look at who is actually pushing this message, it’s the conservative media networks that air his interviews.
The rule of no realm is mine, neither of Gondor nor any other, great or small. But all worthy things that are in peril as the world now stands, these are my care. And for my part, I shall not wholly fail of my task, though Gondor should perish, if anything passes through this night that can still grow fair or bear fruit and flower again in days to come. For I also am a steward. Did you not know?If your actions can save one blade of grass, don't wallow in self-pity about it: be thankful that you could save that one blade of grass.
posted by TheophileEscargot at 3:23 AM on October 3, 2022 [29 favorites]
The conclusion is also important to get the anti-despair message.
Where can we find real comfort?posted by lazaruslong at 3:24 AM on October 3, 2022 [17 favorites]
I wrote this as the conclusion of another post, “Cogs in the Climate Machine”. It’s still word for word what I would write here, so here you go.
Comfort and security are the past, if you ever had them. Many people never did. The Holocene is behind us. What lies in front is still undetermined, and can still be changed. But it will take the fight of our lives, for all of our lives, to change this. This will not be fun, or fulfilling, or a worthy adventure of self-discovery, or a cute feel-good movie, or a task of personal validation. I mean, maybe from time to time there will be those things, who knows. Who cares. This is a fight for life itself. We get to be depressed, despondent, little creatures against the crushing change of geological epochs and mighty economic systems. But we need to be little creatures who are learning to fight very very very fast and very very very well together against the brutal forces of domination which steer our current course.
What does it mean to be loving a vanishing world a this time? As Mary Annaïse Heglar has written: “I don’t need a guarantee of success before I risk everything to save the things, the people, the places that I love. … This planet is the only home we’ll ever have. There’s no place like it. Home is always, always, always worth it.”
So. Read Naomi Klein, Arundhati Roy, George Monbiot, Frantz Fanon, Rosa Luxemburg. Learn to become a revolutionary, get some courage and guts and analysis. Consult my handy “Audacious Toolkit” on types of action & activism and how to find your place in them. Join Extinction Rebellion (caveat: only the groups that put social & racial justice front & centre, obviously), and/or the Sunrise Movement, and/or Fridays for Future, and/or all of them. Let’s do this. GO.
Also, join a union if you can, and work towards a general strike. That’s the scale and scope of power we’re going to need. Make the struggle for life itself the thing that brings you comfort, because that’s all we have now.
Each to their own, I suppose. I spend most of my working hours trying to do something, at very different levels, from teaching young people to build differently to lobbying politicians. It seems the writer is in a similar situation. But I feel one has to keep up hope, to believe things are possible. And I think a lot about how we can make the challenge into something positive, something to enjoy.
I keep telling myself (and others) that we, humanity, have achieved radical change before, and we can do it again.
That said, it is OK to be angry -- we should be angry. There are good reasons to be angry. And enough powerful people to be angry at. It's just that I see almost everyday how those powerful people use our anger at us, so we achieve less than nothing. We need hope, and imagination if we want to succeed.
I liked the post title, and it made me think of this poem, which is an anti-war anthem from Norway. (Scroll down for English version). The author, Nordahl Grieg, was a complex person who was a Stalinist when he wrote the poem, but became a member of the Norwegian resistance and anti-stalinist when WW2 broke out. I'm just putting that in here to say that important issues are always complicated and difficult, and we always make mistakes along the way.
posted by mumimor at 3:40 AM on October 3, 2022 [10 favorites]
I keep telling myself (and others) that we, humanity, have achieved radical change before, and we can do it again.
That said, it is OK to be angry -- we should be angry. There are good reasons to be angry. And enough powerful people to be angry at. It's just that I see almost everyday how those powerful people use our anger at us, so we achieve less than nothing. We need hope, and imagination if we want to succeed.
I liked the post title, and it made me think of this poem, which is an anti-war anthem from Norway. (Scroll down for English version). The author, Nordahl Grieg, was a complex person who was a Stalinist when he wrote the poem, but became a member of the Norwegian resistance and anti-stalinist when WW2 broke out. I'm just putting that in here to say that important issues are always complicated and difficult, and we always make mistakes along the way.
posted by mumimor at 3:40 AM on October 3, 2022 [10 favorites]
> Comfort and security are the past... Who cares. This is a fight for life itself. We get to be depressed, despondent, little creatures against the crushing change of geological epochs and mighty economic systems
Ugh. This bit. She's literally saying "abandon all hope ye who live on earth". It's the tone and sentiment that pervades this piece.
Look, she's allowed to gain perverse personal comfort in such a notion, I get my comforts from perverse notions sometimes too. But oh wow this is not the way to advocate a way of being or feeling to other activists. It's absolutely not mentally healthy, and promoting this is actively harmful to the movement itself. What kind of ass backward advocacy tells you to join up and let's be depressed and fight?
The kicker is we DON'T need to abandon all hope of comfort and safety! We just need to find our comfort and hope in places other than "ah, I feel virtuous because I am carpooling" and "I have hope that we will reverse all climate change within the next five years".
Comfort and hope are the fuel human beings need to keep living and keep fighting. And thankfully we have many, many sources of comfort and hope that are still going strong untouched by climate change, some sources that are indeed eternal. Arundhati Roy and Rosa Luxemburg aren't going around shouting let's be depressed and despondent while we work! What makes that list of writers truly great is their ability to feel and communicate and inspire hope and comfort.
posted by MiraK at 3:44 AM on October 3, 2022 [56 favorites]
Ugh. This bit. She's literally saying "abandon all hope ye who live on earth". It's the tone and sentiment that pervades this piece.
Look, she's allowed to gain perverse personal comfort in such a notion, I get my comforts from perverse notions sometimes too. But oh wow this is not the way to advocate a way of being or feeling to other activists. It's absolutely not mentally healthy, and promoting this is actively harmful to the movement itself. What kind of ass backward advocacy tells you to join up and let's be depressed and fight?
The kicker is we DON'T need to abandon all hope of comfort and safety! We just need to find our comfort and hope in places other than "ah, I feel virtuous because I am carpooling" and "I have hope that we will reverse all climate change within the next five years".
Comfort and hope are the fuel human beings need to keep living and keep fighting. And thankfully we have many, many sources of comfort and hope that are still going strong untouched by climate change, some sources that are indeed eternal. Arundhati Roy and Rosa Luxemburg aren't going around shouting let's be depressed and despondent while we work! What makes that list of writers truly great is their ability to feel and communicate and inspire hope and comfort.
posted by MiraK at 3:44 AM on October 3, 2022 [56 favorites]
What does it mean to be loving a vanishing world a this time? As Mary Annaïse Heglar has written: “I don’t need a guarantee of success before I risk everything to save the things, the people, the places that I love. … This planet is the only home we’ll ever have. There’s no place like it. Home is always, always, always worth it.”
I felt this entire essay in my very soul. I saw a lot of the kinds of styles of messages that I find extremely triggering when people deploy them at me.
posted by bleep at 4:08 AM on October 3, 2022 [1 favorite]
I felt this entire essay in my very soul. I saw a lot of the kinds of styles of messages that I find extremely triggering when people deploy them at me.
posted by bleep at 4:08 AM on October 3, 2022 [1 favorite]
MiraK, you seem to be doing some selective reading of this piece in as negative a light as possible.
The kicker is we DON'T need to abandon all hope of comfort and safety! We just need to find our comfort and hope in places other than "ah, I feel virtuous because I am carpooling" and "I have hope that we will reverse all climate change within the next five years".
This sentiment is...exactly what the conclusion of the article is.
For the author ( who is a Swiss-American-UK ecological economist at the University of Lausanne, with a research focus on "living well within planetary limits.") , the "other place" you allude to is "...to be found in the struggle for the existence of life."
It's cool you don't like the rhetorical tone used, but you and the author seem to be reaching very similar conclusions -- take comfort in solidarity with others in this fight for the existence of light, take action in that fight, and re-examine thought patterns and comfort cycles that may actually be harmful more than they are helpful.
posted by lazaruslong at 5:17 AM on October 3, 2022 [6 favorites]
The kicker is we DON'T need to abandon all hope of comfort and safety! We just need to find our comfort and hope in places other than "ah, I feel virtuous because I am carpooling" and "I have hope that we will reverse all climate change within the next five years".
This sentiment is...exactly what the conclusion of the article is.
For the author ( who is a Swiss-American-UK ecological economist at the University of Lausanne, with a research focus on "living well within planetary limits.") , the "other place" you allude to is "...to be found in the struggle for the existence of life."
It's cool you don't like the rhetorical tone used, but you and the author seem to be reaching very similar conclusions -- take comfort in solidarity with others in this fight for the existence of light, take action in that fight, and re-examine thought patterns and comfort cycles that may actually be harmful more than they are helpful.
posted by lazaruslong at 5:17 AM on October 3, 2022 [6 favorites]
Like, she's literally an IPCC author with decades of experience in this fight and in building movement solidarity with a special eye towards ecological and social justice but you're just casually tossing bombs like 🤷🤷
But oh wow this is not the way to advocate a way of being or feeling to other activists. It's absolutely not mentally healthy, and promoting this is actively harmful to the movement itself. What kind of ass backward advocacy tells you to join up and let's be depressed and fight?
posted by lazaruslong at 5:21 AM on October 3, 2022 [6 favorites]
But oh wow this is not the way to advocate a way of being or feeling to other activists. It's absolutely not mentally healthy, and promoting this is actively harmful to the movement itself. What kind of ass backward advocacy tells you to join up and let's be depressed and fight?
posted by lazaruslong at 5:21 AM on October 3, 2022 [6 favorites]
I'm reminded of a professor I had in law school. He was really funny and knowledgeable, highly esteemed too. When he mentioned that he was available to discuss career choices during his office hours, he told us, "I'm not gonna give you a hug and some pumpkin pie and tell you it's gonna be all right ..." and went on to say something else hardass, which I forget. I made a note thereof, and I never spoke to him about career choices, or in fact anything that I can recall.
This isn't because I wanted hugs and pumpkin pie. It was because he was telling us that he wasn't a safe person to be open with, especially if you didn't know you might be in the wrong. I wasn't offended by his making this clear; far from it. It was a bit of an eyeroll moment, but it was helpful to know. It wasn't his job to be comforting, after all; he was a professional and an academic, not a counselor.
lazaruslong, I would never have known she was an expert in "building movement solidarity with a special eye towards ecological and social justice" if you hadn't said. Her bio says "ecological economist," which sounds right to me -- a grim job for people who do not traffic in comfort. I would not expect it of her, and I didn't get it. Her essay is self-contradictory: "comfort is necessary to human functioning but you cannot take it in anything except the Cause or else you will help destroy the world." It's basically an argument for having clinical depression: life as a gray slog with flashes of color that have to suffice for a reason to go on. I've already got that, thanks.
Bear in mind I am not saying she is wrong about the climate. I am just saying that outreach is not perhaps her forte.
posted by Countess Elena at 5:55 AM on October 3, 2022 [46 favorites]
This isn't because I wanted hugs and pumpkin pie. It was because he was telling us that he wasn't a safe person to be open with, especially if you didn't know you might be in the wrong. I wasn't offended by his making this clear; far from it. It was a bit of an eyeroll moment, but it was helpful to know. It wasn't his job to be comforting, after all; he was a professional and an academic, not a counselor.
lazaruslong, I would never have known she was an expert in "building movement solidarity with a special eye towards ecological and social justice" if you hadn't said. Her bio says "ecological economist," which sounds right to me -- a grim job for people who do not traffic in comfort. I would not expect it of her, and I didn't get it. Her essay is self-contradictory: "comfort is necessary to human functioning but you cannot take it in anything except the Cause or else you will help destroy the world." It's basically an argument for having clinical depression: life as a gray slog with flashes of color that have to suffice for a reason to go on. I've already got that, thanks.
Bear in mind I am not saying she is wrong about the climate. I am just saying that outreach is not perhaps her forte.
posted by Countess Elena at 5:55 AM on October 3, 2022 [46 favorites]
I think the framing is the unique part and the downside of this article - I enjoyed the framing of "things that no longer comfort me" because it is correct, the things she lists as making us feel better in some small way (the carpooling thing hit me for some reason - carpooling is of course a very tiny climate action). But by listing all of this it does concentrate the article on how useless small actions are, making it east to glide past the larger point - that we need to NOT find too much comfort in our small actions, because we need HUGE, collective actions. The paradox is, of course, its hard to get people motivated for those. I don't know if negative or a scolding motivation is helpful for many, and she is going to be criticized up and down for her "tone," (eyeroll), but I do appreciate the brutal honesty displayed in the piece (we need that) and got something out of it, so thanks for the post!
posted by tiny frying pan at 6:06 AM on October 3, 2022
posted by tiny frying pan at 6:06 AM on October 3, 2022
Countess Elena, you’ve hit the nail on the head. I too have clinical depression already and the whole essay just sounded like a litany of all the thought patterns I desperately try to claw myself away from. Maybe the essay is inspirational solidarity for some, but for me, I need others to not think like me at my lows. The idea of this being a desirable mindset to someone upsets me, frankly.
Certainly there is space for her thoughts and experiences. It’s clear that some people are into it and also she is speaking as an expert. But I really disliked the inclusivity of her language, because it felt like my depression had come grasping out at me. I hope for the world’s sake that I am the unusual one.
posted by Mizu at 6:11 AM on October 3, 2022 [18 favorites]
Certainly there is space for her thoughts and experiences. It’s clear that some people are into it and also she is speaking as an expert. But I really disliked the inclusivity of her language, because it felt like my depression had come grasping out at me. I hope for the world’s sake that I am the unusual one.
posted by Mizu at 6:11 AM on October 3, 2022 [18 favorites]
Effective outreach can take many forms. Lots of people are very uncomfortable with the fact that our house is on fire. Some young people feel like their concerns and fears about the environment are being dismissed by adults. Telling people who are sad and scared that they shouldn't be is not generally helpful.
I am not an expert. I am an activist and in my personal experience criticizing people for expressing that things are very bad and that the state of the world is depressing doesn't make things better and it doesn't make people feel better either.
We can be upset or not and also do our very best to put out the fire together.
posted by RobinofFrocksley at 6:12 AM on October 3, 2022 [3 favorites]
I am not an expert. I am an activist and in my personal experience criticizing people for expressing that things are very bad and that the state of the world is depressing doesn't make things better and it doesn't make people feel better either.
We can be upset or not and also do our very best to put out the fire together.
posted by RobinofFrocksley at 6:12 AM on October 3, 2022 [3 favorites]
Carpooling is a good example of why she is wrong while being right, I think. Because people who carpool are more likely to vote for the right people, to discuss meaningful change in the car, and to inspire each other to other small things that can add up to big things.
Getting to systemic change is going to require a lot of distribution of knowledge, a lot of political action and a lot of vision. If you live or work in a suburb with no practical collective infrastructure carpooling is a tiny, almost useless step, except that it may lead to bigger motions. Maybe the next thing is that you all move together to create an other way of life, like some young people I know. And that too is a tiny step in the larger context, but their collective action may inspire others, and so on.
posted by mumimor at 6:18 AM on October 3, 2022 [3 favorites]
Getting to systemic change is going to require a lot of distribution of knowledge, a lot of political action and a lot of vision. If you live or work in a suburb with no practical collective infrastructure carpooling is a tiny, almost useless step, except that it may lead to bigger motions. Maybe the next thing is that you all move together to create an other way of life, like some young people I know. And that too is a tiny step in the larger context, but their collective action may inspire others, and so on.
posted by mumimor at 6:18 AM on October 3, 2022 [3 favorites]
(As long as people don't praise themselves too much for their carpooling and solidarity, etc, she might agree, I think)
posted by tiny frying pan at 6:24 AM on October 3, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by tiny frying pan at 6:24 AM on October 3, 2022 [1 favorite]
This article is a catalogue of personal neurosis projected onto the world at large. To find its historical equivalent, you have to go back to some pretty sick medieval christian attitudes and practices, based on hatred of the self, society and sensuality. The author calls for a "general strike". Yeah, that'll solve all the mood issues and personal problems. Your first obligation in life is to be happy in your self and your circle. Engage with the people and tasks that are closest at hand. Don't worry about your "duty" like some moralistic Victorian.
posted by Modest House at 6:33 AM on October 3, 2022 [6 favorites]
posted by Modest House at 6:33 AM on October 3, 2022 [6 favorites]
I don’t know about that. I think there’s something in what I take (perhaps mistakenly) to be the stoic attitude: the world is probably unredeemable, and certainly no action of mine will redeem it. I take right action nevertheless because I am at least in control of me. I can’t solve the problem, but I don’t have to be part of it.
posted by Phanx at 6:43 AM on October 3, 2022 [6 favorites]
posted by Phanx at 6:43 AM on October 3, 2022 [6 favorites]
I take right action nevertheless because I am at least in control of me. I can’t solve the problem, but I don’t have to be part of it.
But there's no right action. There are only slightly less terrible actions.
I agree with everything in the article, but I just don't know how to respond to it's fatalism. If the small actions I can take as an individual are worthless--if I can't even take some comfort in my decisions to drive a smaller car or carpool--if incremental progress is a ball of lies being sold to us and we shouldn't even pretend that putting up a solar panel or choosing not to travel overseas on an airplane doesn't amount to anything, then what's the point?
Even worse, this is exactly the kind of not-wrong message that can easily be co-opted by climate deniers to justify making things even worse.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 6:52 AM on October 3, 2022 [2 favorites]
But there's no right action. There are only slightly less terrible actions.
I agree with everything in the article, but I just don't know how to respond to it's fatalism. If the small actions I can take as an individual are worthless--if I can't even take some comfort in my decisions to drive a smaller car or carpool--if incremental progress is a ball of lies being sold to us and we shouldn't even pretend that putting up a solar panel or choosing not to travel overseas on an airplane doesn't amount to anything, then what's the point?
Even worse, this is exactly the kind of not-wrong message that can easily be co-opted by climate deniers to justify making things even worse.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 6:52 AM on October 3, 2022 [2 favorites]
I think it's interesting that some people are taking the article as "Here are things you can't have anymore because I said they're bad" whereas I took the article as "List of common cold comforts people try to offer me that just make me feel worse."
posted by bleep at 6:54 AM on October 3, 2022 [5 favorites]
posted by bleep at 6:54 AM on October 3, 2022 [5 favorites]
See also "ways people have tried to convince me to accept the unacceptable"
posted by bleep at 6:58 AM on October 3, 2022 [6 favorites]
posted by bleep at 6:58 AM on October 3, 2022 [6 favorites]
It's getting really difficult to convince people that the unprecedented levels of global cooperation we're going to need to fix climate change will be achieved, given the response to Covid.
posted by MrVisible at 7:15 AM on October 3, 2022 [10 favorites]
posted by MrVisible at 7:15 AM on October 3, 2022 [10 favorites]
So it seems like "who is right, this article or something else" is a bit of a red herring, because the issue is actually a pervasive discourse of "whatever you are doing it is wrong". If you don't feel better when you take small daily steps, you are bad; if you do feel better when you, eg, reduce the number of cars driving through your neighborhood*, you are bad.
The primary immediate problem seems to be the urge to make others feel bad, possibly as a way of deferring people's own fear/anger/guilt. (I maintain, for reasons outlined below, that you might as well choose carpooling or Extinction Rebellion based on whatever works for you.)
*I live on a busy street in a really polluted area. Frankly, fewer cars would be great for all of us - safer on the street, less asthma, less literal car fume dirt building up on my porch, etc. If you are carpooling, thank you even if the planet is still on fire.
__
For these reasons, I think that for the average citizen (rather than for the type of person who is really, truly ready to start sabotaging things - if you are that type of person, you know) it does not in fact matter whether you read Naomi Klein and do the occasional climate march or carpool and plant a garden:
We all know what's going to happen because it is happening already - accelerating climate disasters, increasing state violence, increasing state withdrawal and looting by the powerful.
We know what's going to happen because it happens every time - with Sandy, with Katrina, etc. Radicals of various stripes will scramble a really incredible amount of effort and supplies and will create structures to distribute them; in the heat of the moment this will work fairly well, they will be carried by their own momentum and they will be left largely alone by the state. As things settle out, the state will do its best to crush any counter-state/counter-elite structures that have sprung up and will loot whatever has been built.
The vast majority of humans are going to be occupied enough by mere survival that they won't get much caught up in this stuff until it happens to them. The good news is that it's going to be happening to more and more of us with more and more intensity as we go. Eventually the safe spaces will be small enough that many of the remaining safe people will throw in their lot with the struggle because safety will obviously be crumbling.
In these circumstances, there isn't much difference between carpooling and reading Naomi Klein, actually, and you might as well pick the one that works for you. What, do you think that the government is going to let us vote in the environmental utopia? Do you think that if there's a "climate strike" they're just going to fold up like paper? What precisely in history leads you to believe this?
You might as well do whatever small thing works for you and wait for the horn to sound, frankly. If you are the type of person who is moved to sabotage trucks or chain yourself to things, you're probably already working on that, and if you're not, you are just as likely to get in on the endgame with your carpool buddies as with your radical book group because circumstances are going to overtake you.
posted by Frowner at 7:24 AM on October 3, 2022 [29 favorites]
The primary immediate problem seems to be the urge to make others feel bad, possibly as a way of deferring people's own fear/anger/guilt. (I maintain, for reasons outlined below, that you might as well choose carpooling or Extinction Rebellion based on whatever works for you.)
*I live on a busy street in a really polluted area. Frankly, fewer cars would be great for all of us - safer on the street, less asthma, less literal car fume dirt building up on my porch, etc. If you are carpooling, thank you even if the planet is still on fire.
__
For these reasons, I think that for the average citizen (rather than for the type of person who is really, truly ready to start sabotaging things - if you are that type of person, you know) it does not in fact matter whether you read Naomi Klein and do the occasional climate march or carpool and plant a garden:
We all know what's going to happen because it is happening already - accelerating climate disasters, increasing state violence, increasing state withdrawal and looting by the powerful.
We know what's going to happen because it happens every time - with Sandy, with Katrina, etc. Radicals of various stripes will scramble a really incredible amount of effort and supplies and will create structures to distribute them; in the heat of the moment this will work fairly well, they will be carried by their own momentum and they will be left largely alone by the state. As things settle out, the state will do its best to crush any counter-state/counter-elite structures that have sprung up and will loot whatever has been built.
The vast majority of humans are going to be occupied enough by mere survival that they won't get much caught up in this stuff until it happens to them. The good news is that it's going to be happening to more and more of us with more and more intensity as we go. Eventually the safe spaces will be small enough that many of the remaining safe people will throw in their lot with the struggle because safety will obviously be crumbling.
In these circumstances, there isn't much difference between carpooling and reading Naomi Klein, actually, and you might as well pick the one that works for you. What, do you think that the government is going to let us vote in the environmental utopia? Do you think that if there's a "climate strike" they're just going to fold up like paper? What precisely in history leads you to believe this?
You might as well do whatever small thing works for you and wait for the horn to sound, frankly. If you are the type of person who is moved to sabotage trucks or chain yourself to things, you're probably already working on that, and if you're not, you are just as likely to get in on the endgame with your carpool buddies as with your radical book group because circumstances are going to overtake you.
posted by Frowner at 7:24 AM on October 3, 2022 [29 favorites]
Just a short reminder that the EU elections in 2019 actually set the EU on a new course, and that if anything, the current crises are reinforcing the EU leadership in their belief that we need to get rid of fossil fuels ASAP. Voting worked. Change isn't happening as fast as I want it to, or in the manner I want it to, but we could see that we could act politically together, and that it is worth doing more of whatever we do, together and as individuals. And that small succes has not stopped any activists I know. Contrariwise, it has made climate denialism less acceptable in the EU.
Maybe the author's background in Switzerland, the UK and the USA means that she didn't notice the election or the results?
I saw recently that (European) fast-fashion companies (like ZARA, H&M etc.) are experiencing epic losses this year. People are not buying as many clothes as before. This will eventually lead to huge reductions in CO2 and in toxic pollutants. It will also lead to job losses in developing countries where the clothes are made. It's complicated.
But the point is that because millions of individuals are making individual choices, change is happening. (Article from last year about this, I can't find the more recent source that shows that what this article predicted has already begun).
posted by mumimor at 7:49 AM on October 3, 2022 [14 favorites]
Maybe the author's background in Switzerland, the UK and the USA means that she didn't notice the election or the results?
I saw recently that (European) fast-fashion companies (like ZARA, H&M etc.) are experiencing epic losses this year. People are not buying as many clothes as before. This will eventually lead to huge reductions in CO2 and in toxic pollutants. It will also lead to job losses in developing countries where the clothes are made. It's complicated.
But the point is that because millions of individuals are making individual choices, change is happening. (Article from last year about this, I can't find the more recent source that shows that what this article predicted has already begun).
posted by mumimor at 7:49 AM on October 3, 2022 [14 favorites]
It's getting really difficult to convince people that the unprecedented levels of global cooperation we're going to need to fix climate change will be achieved, given the response to Covid.
MrVisible
Surely the message that comfort and security are in the past, that what small actions individuals can reasonably take are not only meaningless but may be actively harmful, and that the only future we can hope for is a grim, possibly endless, war of attrition will convince the holdouts.
posted by star gentle uterus at 7:49 AM on October 3, 2022 [16 favorites]
MrVisible
Surely the message that comfort and security are in the past, that what small actions individuals can reasonably take are not only meaningless but may be actively harmful, and that the only future we can hope for is a grim, possibly endless, war of attrition will convince the holdouts.
posted by star gentle uterus at 7:49 AM on October 3, 2022 [16 favorites]
It is also complex, because we should rejoice at the good things in the world around us: babies screaming, smiling, drooling and making their loving carers work hard, migratory birds making their way back & forth across the globe, trees reaching far into the air and soil, tasty healthy meals with friends and family, beautiful cool mornings and lovely rainy days. All of these are extremely very good and we should rejoice in them, without a doubt.
At the same time, at times of great change and upheaval, it is entirely possible to be too comforted, and hence too pacified, by the remnants of normality around us. The fact that our city, our home, has not yet flooded doesn’t mean we shouldn’t be going all out to prevent the climate crisis from worsening.
posted by tiny frying pan at 7:52 AM on October 3, 2022 [3 favorites]
At the same time, at times of great change and upheaval, it is entirely possible to be too comforted, and hence too pacified, by the remnants of normality around us. The fact that our city, our home, has not yet flooded doesn’t mean we shouldn’t be going all out to prevent the climate crisis from worsening.
posted by tiny frying pan at 7:52 AM on October 3, 2022 [3 favorites]
I mean but she's not telling anyone else what to think, say, feel, or do. She's describing her own experiences. She's saying "This shit isn't enough for me anymore, and maybe we should think about what we're actually doing". People are adding in "And by the way life is an empty hell scape of suffering" and then getting mad at something they added to it.
posted by bleep at 7:53 AM on October 3, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by bleep at 7:53 AM on October 3, 2022 [1 favorite]
I mean but she's not telling anyone else what to think, say, feel, or do. She's describing her own experiences.
That's pretty disingenuous. We didn't break into her home and steal her private diary, she published this for the world to see for a reason. It's not even written as simply her own personal feelings, it's entirely written as objective, third-person declarations, e.g.:
That's pretty disingenuous. We didn't break into her home and steal her private diary, she published this for the world to see for a reason. It's not even written as simply her own personal feelings, it's entirely written as objective, third-person declarations, e.g.:
If we had cancer, this would be like being told our huge tumour is slightly smaller than another patient’s. Not so comforting, eh.posted by star gentle uterus at 8:00 AM on October 3, 2022 [6 favorites]
Just a short reminder that the EU elections in 2019 actually set the EU on a new course, and that if anything, the current crises are reinforcing the EU leadership in their belief that we need to get rid of fossil fuels ASAP. Voting worked.
But what about climate migrants? If the US/China/global system goes on unchecked except for the EU, there are still masses of climate refugees in the EU and from the outside it looks like the response to climate migrants is an increase in statist violence, a rightward move socially and crackdowns on people who are trying to help in the Mediterranean. A lot of times I feel like the things that happen in the EU are really dependent on externalizing violence and inequality. (Which, I mean, the United States does the same thing except without having any kind of internal justice or improvements, I'm not trying to single out the EU, god knows.)
posted by Frowner at 8:01 AM on October 3, 2022 [7 favorites]
But what about climate migrants? If the US/China/global system goes on unchecked except for the EU, there are still masses of climate refugees in the EU and from the outside it looks like the response to climate migrants is an increase in statist violence, a rightward move socially and crackdowns on people who are trying to help in the Mediterranean. A lot of times I feel like the things that happen in the EU are really dependent on externalizing violence and inequality. (Which, I mean, the United States does the same thing except without having any kind of internal justice or improvements, I'm not trying to single out the EU, god knows.)
posted by Frowner at 8:01 AM on October 3, 2022 [7 favorites]
Obviously my point was not "So don't critique it" my point was "Critique her actual point"
posted by bleep at 8:02 AM on October 3, 2022
posted by bleep at 8:02 AM on October 3, 2022
I find it weird that a few people are insisting the depressing takeaway many people got from this is weird. I think it's the meta-est of metafilter phenomena though that this is almost the entirety of the thread.
To engage more with the content, I found item 3 grating because I believe the endgame of such thinking amounts to unilateral disarmament. To use a Limbaugh-era criticism as a takeoff point, Al Gore can absolutely stay home and not go to a climate change conference and reduce his carbon footprint, but Charles Koch isn't going to be doing the same, so who gets to keep winning?
posted by The Monster at the End of this Thread at 8:04 AM on October 3, 2022 [4 favorites]
To engage more with the content, I found item 3 grating because I believe the endgame of such thinking amounts to unilateral disarmament. To use a Limbaugh-era criticism as a takeoff point, Al Gore can absolutely stay home and not go to a climate change conference and reduce his carbon footprint, but Charles Koch isn't going to be doing the same, so who gets to keep winning?
posted by The Monster at the End of this Thread at 8:04 AM on October 3, 2022 [4 favorites]
Not sure how to respond to this one because her examples are so… incredibly unrelatable to me and my community, which is almost entirely people who make 20k or less per year. Long car trips? Flying? SUVs? A job in the financial sector? International travel??? I can’t imagine a lifestyle like that. The only one of those things I have had the money for in the last 10 years is a long car trip and that last happened three years ago, 2 hours there and back. Oh, I’ll also give her eating dairy, though I rarely eat meat because it’s expensive and goes bad quickly.
I’m not trying to say this as some sort of “wow she’s so privileged” I just… can’t even translate this into something that’s meaningful given my current lifestyle. Is this article not for people like me or is that just me comforting myself? Idk.
posted by brook horse at 8:11 AM on October 3, 2022 [12 favorites]
I’m not trying to say this as some sort of “wow she’s so privileged” I just… can’t even translate this into something that’s meaningful given my current lifestyle. Is this article not for people like me or is that just me comforting myself? Idk.
posted by brook horse at 8:11 AM on October 3, 2022 [12 favorites]
Man, that was one big example of “perfect is the enemy of good”
posted by Thorzdad at 8:20 AM on October 3, 2022 [17 favorites]
posted by Thorzdad at 8:20 AM on October 3, 2022 [17 favorites]
> Your first obligation in life is to be happy in your self and your circle. Engage with the people and tasks that are closest at hand
Yeah, this is something I have come to strongly believe: that being cool within oneself is the ideal baseline from which to live life. But that's a personal preference, and phanx is right to point out that Stoics are valid in feeling differently. Now that phanx points it out it seems that's what this writer might have been going for. Fair enough.
-----------
Up thread I was trying to articulate (and failed to) that there is something very wrong with those list item headings. I think I can explain it better now: those list item headings are imo provocatively misleading. They're a bit like clickbait headlines. They say absolutely outrageous things that seem designed to provoke a wtf reaction, but then the bombastic, sweeping proclamations are followed up by explanations that feel like a nothingburger in contrast, a bait-and-switch.
For example:
- Being slightly less worse does not comfort me (reaction: GTFO, nobody can fix everything all at once!)
Explanation clarifies: making less environmentally damaging personal choices compared to some other individual does not comfort me (reaction: oh okay that's a much more reasonable take than the title implies)
- Being slightly more efficient does not comfort me. (reaction: WTF, every little bit of improvement and progress does matter, that is literally how we fix anything anywhere)
Explanation clarifies: We must be careful not to let slight improvements in efficiency normalize systems and structures that cause enormous harm (reaction: oh ok that's a much more reasonable take than the title implies)
- "Progress is happening" is not a comforting notion. (reaction: WTF. If you don't want progress in climate action/awareness/policy/results, what DO you want??)
Explanation clarifies: we shouldn't rely on technology to save us from climate catastrophe. (reaction: oh okay that's a much more reasonable take than your title)
I think it would have served the writer better to write more specific, less vague titles. And I know this sounds like nitpicking, but I don't think it is. If you look at the writings of, say, Arundhati Roy, you'll find similar levels of (justified!) alarmism and a fuckton of what would easily qualify as doomerism. But the difference is that her writing has specificity and precision and enormous research to give it heft. When she makes a grand outrageous sweeping statement, she always earns her right to make it by fully and authoritatively owning it, and she will bring all the receipts too. She is never going to pull a bait and switch on you. That integrity is no small matter; all writers should be mindful and responsible with words. This is why I don't think I'm nitpicking when I fault this article for those misleading titles.
posted by MiraK at 8:23 AM on October 3, 2022 [10 favorites]
Yeah, this is something I have come to strongly believe: that being cool within oneself is the ideal baseline from which to live life. But that's a personal preference, and phanx is right to point out that Stoics are valid in feeling differently. Now that phanx points it out it seems that's what this writer might have been going for. Fair enough.
-----------
Up thread I was trying to articulate (and failed to) that there is something very wrong with those list item headings. I think I can explain it better now: those list item headings are imo provocatively misleading. They're a bit like clickbait headlines. They say absolutely outrageous things that seem designed to provoke a wtf reaction, but then the bombastic, sweeping proclamations are followed up by explanations that feel like a nothingburger in contrast, a bait-and-switch.
For example:
- Being slightly less worse does not comfort me (reaction: GTFO, nobody can fix everything all at once!)
Explanation clarifies: making less environmentally damaging personal choices compared to some other individual does not comfort me (reaction: oh okay that's a much more reasonable take than the title implies)
- Being slightly more efficient does not comfort me. (reaction: WTF, every little bit of improvement and progress does matter, that is literally how we fix anything anywhere)
Explanation clarifies: We must be careful not to let slight improvements in efficiency normalize systems and structures that cause enormous harm (reaction: oh ok that's a much more reasonable take than the title implies)
- "Progress is happening" is not a comforting notion. (reaction: WTF. If you don't want progress in climate action/awareness/policy/results, what DO you want??)
Explanation clarifies: we shouldn't rely on technology to save us from climate catastrophe. (reaction: oh okay that's a much more reasonable take than your title)
I think it would have served the writer better to write more specific, less vague titles. And I know this sounds like nitpicking, but I don't think it is. If you look at the writings of, say, Arundhati Roy, you'll find similar levels of (justified!) alarmism and a fuckton of what would easily qualify as doomerism. But the difference is that her writing has specificity and precision and enormous research to give it heft. When she makes a grand outrageous sweeping statement, she always earns her right to make it by fully and authoritatively owning it, and she will bring all the receipts too. She is never going to pull a bait and switch on you. That integrity is no small matter; all writers should be mindful and responsible with words. This is why I don't think I'm nitpicking when I fault this article for those misleading titles.
posted by MiraK at 8:23 AM on October 3, 2022 [10 favorites]
But what about climate migrants? If the US/China/global system goes on unchecked except for the EU, there are still masses of climate refugees in the EU and from the outside it looks like the response to climate migrants is an increase in statist violence, a rightward move socially and crackdowns on people who are trying to help in the Mediterranean.
You are so right about this, and it is a huge issue, in many ways. And it's also an absurd problem. Europe has a big population problem: there are not enough young people, so we can't even maintain our current productivity, let alone the growth economists religiously believe in. So migration is objectively a good thing. Except the old people, who depend on young people for their care and in many countries also their tax money, are scared of the migrants. Mostly because of fascist scaremongering. At least in this country, there was an audible sigh of relief from agriculture and industry when it turned out that the old scared people were willing to welcome refugees from Ukraine.
And though only a tiny percentage of young people vote for the fascists, because of the unbalance, there are more older voters who can keep the anti-immigration agenda alive, even far out on the left.
And of course, on this small globe, there are no safe havens when climate changes. But I think Europe is big enough that if it makes progress, it will put pressure on other regions, sort of like when California regulates something, the rest of the US has to follow, because it doesn't pay to make two different product lines, for inside and outside of California. If Europe rids itself of fossil fuels and builds the systems to handle it, then those systems will be available to everyone.
posted by mumimor at 8:38 AM on October 3, 2022 [3 favorites]
You are so right about this, and it is a huge issue, in many ways. And it's also an absurd problem. Europe has a big population problem: there are not enough young people, so we can't even maintain our current productivity, let alone the growth economists religiously believe in. So migration is objectively a good thing. Except the old people, who depend on young people for their care and in many countries also their tax money, are scared of the migrants. Mostly because of fascist scaremongering. At least in this country, there was an audible sigh of relief from agriculture and industry when it turned out that the old scared people were willing to welcome refugees from Ukraine.
And though only a tiny percentage of young people vote for the fascists, because of the unbalance, there are more older voters who can keep the anti-immigration agenda alive, even far out on the left.
And of course, on this small globe, there are no safe havens when climate changes. But I think Europe is big enough that if it makes progress, it will put pressure on other regions, sort of like when California regulates something, the rest of the US has to follow, because it doesn't pay to make two different product lines, for inside and outside of California. If Europe rids itself of fossil fuels and builds the systems to handle it, then those systems will be available to everyone.
posted by mumimor at 8:38 AM on October 3, 2022 [3 favorites]
Man, that was one big example of “perfect is the enemy of good”
pretty much.
Or put it this way. I don't think you can be useful "soldier" for any kind of big deal change for the better until you acknowledge, accept and internalize that you will always harbour within you poisons. They're always going to be there, there's no trick or method or philosophy or school that's going to purify you. Jesus hung out with thieves and hookers and didn't think twice about using his first bona fide miracle to turn water into wine, keep the party going, Gandhi may have been a pedophile, MLK had extramarital affairs, Paul McCartney wrote Ob-Bla-Di Ob-La-Da.
Blah Blah Blah.
Until you admit yrrrr part of the problem and always will be, there will be no solution. Wear sunscreen, try to be kind, remember who your friends are and don't be afraid of paradox.
posted by philip-random at 9:12 AM on October 3, 2022 [2 favorites]
pretty much.
Or put it this way. I don't think you can be useful "soldier" for any kind of big deal change for the better until you acknowledge, accept and internalize that you will always harbour within you poisons. They're always going to be there, there's no trick or method or philosophy or school that's going to purify you. Jesus hung out with thieves and hookers and didn't think twice about using his first bona fide miracle to turn water into wine, keep the party going, Gandhi may have been a pedophile, MLK had extramarital affairs, Paul McCartney wrote Ob-Bla-Di Ob-La-Da.
Blah Blah Blah.
Until you admit yrrrr part of the problem and always will be, there will be no solution. Wear sunscreen, try to be kind, remember who your friends are and don't be afraid of paradox.
posted by philip-random at 9:12 AM on October 3, 2022 [2 favorites]
The dismal "science," y'know?
posted by aspersioncast at 9:39 AM on October 3, 2022
posted by aspersioncast at 9:39 AM on October 3, 2022
One of the hardest lessons for me to internalize in the past decade or so is that victory is not always possible, but this doesn't mean that fighting isn't worthwhile anyway.
Like, we need to acknowledge the possibility that we are all, collectively and individually, really fucked. Anybody who says they know for sure that we haven't overshot some critical ecological threshold, and are on our way to a major ecosystem collapse/realignment, is either uninformed or lying. For all we know, the hammer may have already fallen on the methane clathrate "gun" and we're just looking down the barrel, waiting for the powder to catch. We don't know. Everything we do today might just be part of a minor coda on the great "oops" that started with the development of agriculture, or the steam engine, or the first oil well. We don't and can't know for sure.
And on a cultural level, we might be fucked too. The era of liberal, humanist values that started with the European Enlightenment might be an exception, rather than the rule. Perhaps expecting a bunch of overgrown monkeys who spent the better part of 300,000 years living in tribes and extended-family units to somehow build a working system for planetary governance and resource distribution and stop murdering each other over theological disputes was… optimistic, at best.
But, fuck it—if we're going to go down, let's go down swinging. There is beauty and honor and some level of grace in the attempt, even if we cannot win.
This, to me, is what life is. Existence is, if you look at it too hard, horrifying. In the end, all of us will die, most of us horribly while still fighting for those last breaths, even under the best circumstances. And yet most of us manage to get out of bed every day, regardless, knowing full well what is coming. We need to do the same collectively, as societies and a civilization. Even if the situation seems—even if it truly is, in bare fact—hopeless. Right up until the very end.
posted by Kadin2048 at 9:41 AM on October 3, 2022 [8 favorites]
Like, we need to acknowledge the possibility that we are all, collectively and individually, really fucked. Anybody who says they know for sure that we haven't overshot some critical ecological threshold, and are on our way to a major ecosystem collapse/realignment, is either uninformed or lying. For all we know, the hammer may have already fallen on the methane clathrate "gun" and we're just looking down the barrel, waiting for the powder to catch. We don't know. Everything we do today might just be part of a minor coda on the great "oops" that started with the development of agriculture, or the steam engine, or the first oil well. We don't and can't know for sure.
And on a cultural level, we might be fucked too. The era of liberal, humanist values that started with the European Enlightenment might be an exception, rather than the rule. Perhaps expecting a bunch of overgrown monkeys who spent the better part of 300,000 years living in tribes and extended-family units to somehow build a working system for planetary governance and resource distribution and stop murdering each other over theological disputes was… optimistic, at best.
But, fuck it—if we're going to go down, let's go down swinging. There is beauty and honor and some level of grace in the attempt, even if we cannot win.
This, to me, is what life is. Existence is, if you look at it too hard, horrifying. In the end, all of us will die, most of us horribly while still fighting for those last breaths, even under the best circumstances. And yet most of us manage to get out of bed every day, regardless, knowing full well what is coming. We need to do the same collectively, as societies and a civilization. Even if the situation seems—even if it truly is, in bare fact—hopeless. Right up until the very end.
posted by Kadin2048 at 9:41 AM on October 3, 2022 [8 favorites]
Here's my take, as a pretty much professional politician: despair does not drive organizing. People don't walk and canvass, or even vote, if they're not comfort by the hope, by the imagination, of a better outcome. Hope and hedonism drive people. That's one way that capitalism steals a lead over the forces of progress, socialism, and liberalism: we're all too insistent on everybody wearing a hair shirt and being miserable all the time in the name of a putative 'realism', while the other side is happy to indulge every errant whim. Let's leave the 'sinners in the hands of an angry god' mindset to the religious fundamentalists.
Making ourselves and our comrades feel worse about ourselves in some vanguardist quest for being 'more progressive than thou' is a counter-productive game that media has successfully germinated. Let's encourage, not discourage.
posted by LeRoienJaune at 9:41 AM on October 3, 2022 [17 favorites]
Making ourselves and our comrades feel worse about ourselves in some vanguardist quest for being 'more progressive than thou' is a counter-productive game that media has successfully germinated. Let's encourage, not discourage.
posted by LeRoienJaune at 9:41 AM on October 3, 2022 [17 favorites]
"comfort is necessary to human functioning but you cannot take it in anything except the Cause or else you will help destroy the world."
I find these essays that are more focused on cultivating the Exact Right Attitude to the Task/to the World, usually in some sort of self-abasing/self-critical way, than on figuring out what the hell to do and how to do it to be just....very misguided. Sometimes you do need to be aware of your attitude, because it can undermine what you're trying to do in the moment, e.g., sailing in to solve someone else's problems as a white savior generally leads to being offensive at best and often genuinely counterproductive. But often this just seems to be a way of lecturing other people to feel more correctly...as you do.
posted by praemunire at 10:10 AM on October 3, 2022 [6 favorites]
I find these essays that are more focused on cultivating the Exact Right Attitude to the Task/to the World, usually in some sort of self-abasing/self-critical way, than on figuring out what the hell to do and how to do it to be just....very misguided. Sometimes you do need to be aware of your attitude, because it can undermine what you're trying to do in the moment, e.g., sailing in to solve someone else's problems as a white savior generally leads to being offensive at best and often genuinely counterproductive. But often this just seems to be a way of lecturing other people to feel more correctly...as you do.
posted by praemunire at 10:10 AM on October 3, 2022 [6 favorites]
Don't miss her other related section: An Audacious Toolkit: Actions Against Climate Breakdown (Part 1: A is for Advocacy). - three parts.
posted by tiny frying pan at 10:14 AM on October 3, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by tiny frying pan at 10:14 AM on October 3, 2022 [2 favorites]
Like, I read a tweet thread the other day about trans rights that was literally all "first, you must understand that you are not the protagonist!" and continued in that vein. And, yeah, sure, you're not, but, while I'm cis, I'm guessing that trans people would probably think of first steps as things like treating those in your lives according to their gender, providing material support for their health care, and voting for politicians who support their rights, waaaay before tweaking your attitude towards the movement to perfection. I felt like the author was engaging more in an extended cringe at an earlier version of herself than in any sort of useful exercise. This piece has a lot of the same feel.
posted by praemunire at 10:16 AM on October 3, 2022 [7 favorites]
posted by praemunire at 10:16 AM on October 3, 2022 [7 favorites]
Just a short reminder that the EU elections in 2019 actually set the EU on a new course, and that if anything, the current crises are reinforcing the EU leadership in their belief that we need to get rid of fossil fuels ASAP. Voting worked. Change isn't happening as fast as I want it to, or in the manner I want it to, but we could see that we could act politically together, and that it is worth doing more of whatever we do, together and as individuals.
The same could be said of the U.S. elections in 2020. The Biden administration has gone far beyond any previous administration in pushing forward a whole host of policies that are confronting climate change and its consequences.
Because of my job, I monitor legal and regulatory changes made by the federal government, and am more optimistic than I've been in a very long time about our capacity to mount a strong response to climate challenges. It doesn't mean we've solved all the problems out there -- but we're moving decisively in the right direction.
Unfortunately, I also feel more strongly than ever that public discourse about these issues -- including in left circles -- is pretty disconnected from realistic, constructive assessments of the policy situation. It seems like takes with a strongly negative emotional tone dominate, and anything that doesn't have this kind of doom-laden outlook is viewed as "naive" or even some form of deliberate deception.
The kind of discourse represented by this essay just doesn't seem very practical. The things she's saying we shouldn't take comfort in -- slight improvements, slightly greater efficiency, gradual progress, etc. -- are in fact the most realistic type of constructive change available. Indeed, this is what most positive change has looked like throughout history.
She seems to feel that the only "realistic" way to confront the moment is to live in a state of existential struggle, in pursuit of some radical or revolutionary solution. I don't think that's realism at all. It's more of a faith-based belief in a certain type of movement politics. But that type of politics has had, at best, mixed efficacy over time. Occasionally it helps bring about important changes, but perhaps just as often it has led to years or decades of tilting against windmills, and pursuing the perfect while scorning the good.
posted by Artifice_Eternity at 2:09 PM on October 3, 2022 [13 favorites]
The same could be said of the U.S. elections in 2020. The Biden administration has gone far beyond any previous administration in pushing forward a whole host of policies that are confronting climate change and its consequences.
Because of my job, I monitor legal and regulatory changes made by the federal government, and am more optimistic than I've been in a very long time about our capacity to mount a strong response to climate challenges. It doesn't mean we've solved all the problems out there -- but we're moving decisively in the right direction.
Unfortunately, I also feel more strongly than ever that public discourse about these issues -- including in left circles -- is pretty disconnected from realistic, constructive assessments of the policy situation. It seems like takes with a strongly negative emotional tone dominate, and anything that doesn't have this kind of doom-laden outlook is viewed as "naive" or even some form of deliberate deception.
The kind of discourse represented by this essay just doesn't seem very practical. The things she's saying we shouldn't take comfort in -- slight improvements, slightly greater efficiency, gradual progress, etc. -- are in fact the most realistic type of constructive change available. Indeed, this is what most positive change has looked like throughout history.
She seems to feel that the only "realistic" way to confront the moment is to live in a state of existential struggle, in pursuit of some radical or revolutionary solution. I don't think that's realism at all. It's more of a faith-based belief in a certain type of movement politics. But that type of politics has had, at best, mixed efficacy over time. Occasionally it helps bring about important changes, but perhaps just as often it has led to years or decades of tilting against windmills, and pursuing the perfect while scorning the good.
posted by Artifice_Eternity at 2:09 PM on October 3, 2022 [13 favorites]
She seems to feel that the only "realistic" way to confront the moment is to live in a state of existential struggle, in pursuit of some radical or revolutionary solution.
I really don't think so? She has many, many points of action in her toolkit articles.
posted by tiny frying pan at 2:19 PM on October 3, 2022
I really don't think so? She has many, many points of action in her toolkit articles.
posted by tiny frying pan at 2:19 PM on October 3, 2022
In particular, this section, about individual vs. collective action.
posted by tiny frying pan at 2:23 PM on October 3, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by tiny frying pan at 2:23 PM on October 3, 2022 [1 favorite]
She seems to feel that the only "realistic" way to confront the moment is to live in a state of existential struggle, in pursuit of some radical or revolutionary solution.
Eh, I don't know that she sees this as the "realistic" way to confront the moment so much as the only way that is a source of authentic comfort rather than a pleasant fiction.
As someone who doesn't find that either authentic or comforting I just kind of have to assume this essay isn't for me, but I do hope that she at least is finding sustenance that way. She references her children in various of the linked pieces and I kind of wonder how she reconciles her parenting philosophy with all of this...
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 2:47 PM on October 3, 2022 [2 favorites]
Eh, I don't know that she sees this as the "realistic" way to confront the moment so much as the only way that is a source of authentic comfort rather than a pleasant fiction.
As someone who doesn't find that either authentic or comforting I just kind of have to assume this essay isn't for me, but I do hope that she at least is finding sustenance that way. She references her children in various of the linked pieces and I kind of wonder how she reconciles her parenting philosophy with all of this...
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 2:47 PM on October 3, 2022 [2 favorites]
♫ All I knew, and all I believed... are crumbling images that no longer comfort me ♬
posted by L.P. Hatecraft at 5:12 PM on October 3, 2022
posted by L.P. Hatecraft at 5:12 PM on October 3, 2022
"only beauty can save the world"
(Alexander Solzhenitsyn or maybe Dostoevsky or maybe it was that Nick Cave song)
posted by philip-random at 6:41 PM on October 3, 2022 [3 favorites]
(Alexander Solzhenitsyn or maybe Dostoevsky or maybe it was that Nick Cave song)
posted by philip-random at 6:41 PM on October 3, 2022 [3 favorites]
I find it interesting how many articles about how we should be miserable and feel bad about climate change are written by people who are obviously working from a middle class lifestyle at minimum. There's a lot of self-flagellation that comes across as very performative to me.
Like, if you really wanted to be miserable, you could just live like a working-class person*? But instead you're writing articles about how you should feel bad about doing [a bunch of things that many people can't do]. It doesn't really bother me, per se, but I am a bit baffled by the whole genre of writing.
*Honestly, the lifestyle isn't miserable. It's only not having a financial cushion that's incredibly stressful, for the most part.
posted by brook horse at 7:01 PM on October 3, 2022 [9 favorites]
Like, if you really wanted to be miserable, you could just live like a working-class person*? But instead you're writing articles about how you should feel bad about doing [a bunch of things that many people can't do]. It doesn't really bother me, per se, but I am a bit baffled by the whole genre of writing.
*Honestly, the lifestyle isn't miserable. It's only not having a financial cushion that's incredibly stressful, for the most part.
posted by brook horse at 7:01 PM on October 3, 2022 [9 favorites]
On first read I thought, "I don't need this doomerism."
On second read I thought, "this isn't doomerism; this is refusing to be held accountable for the wrong things while allowing others to escape proper accountability."
posted by mph at 9:09 PM on October 3, 2022 [1 favorite]
On second read I thought, "this isn't doomerism; this is refusing to be held accountable for the wrong things while allowing others to escape proper accountability."
posted by mph at 9:09 PM on October 3, 2022 [1 favorite]
I kind of wonder how she reconciles her parenting philosophy with all of this...
Or having kids at all. I’m pretty sure the simplest and most effective thing any wealthy Westerner can do to fight climate change is not reproduce. Angst away, lady.
posted by Jess the Mess at 4:14 AM on October 4, 2022 [2 favorites]
Or having kids at all. I’m pretty sure the simplest and most effective thing any wealthy Westerner can do to fight climate change is not reproduce. Angst away, lady.
posted by Jess the Mess at 4:14 AM on October 4, 2022 [2 favorites]
I don't expect people to love this. But deeply disappointed with those who aren't engaging with her point at all. It's far more nuanced then is being given credit here.
posted by tiny frying pan at 4:38 AM on October 4, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by tiny frying pan at 4:38 AM on October 4, 2022 [3 favorites]
(Hint: she isn't full of despair. She is fighting.)
posted by tiny frying pan at 4:40 AM on October 4, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by tiny frying pan at 4:40 AM on October 4, 2022 [1 favorite]
I learned about pollution in elementary school in the 1980s
garbage
But look at what the Lorax remake brought us: more disposable crap, and a weird fanfic culture around sexualizing the Onceler.
posted by snuffleupagus at 7:28 AM on October 4, 2022
garbage
But look at what the Lorax remake brought us: more disposable crap, and a weird fanfic culture around sexualizing the Onceler.
posted by snuffleupagus at 7:28 AM on October 4, 2022
she isn't full of despair. She is fighting.
I don't know her, so I don't know what she is or is not doing, or how she truly feels in the watches of the night. What I can say is this essay reads like one of two things. Either scolding about the wrong things of the kind I described above, where the war against perceived complacency usurps the war against the actual problem. Or a particular form of catastrophizing (that I recognize from my own brain) that rejects all joy, all comfort, in the march towards whatever grim conclusion.
This will not be fun, or fulfilling, or a worthy adventure of self-discovery, or a cute feel-good movie, or a task of personal validation.
Human beings generally need to believe in some sort of frame of meaning or enjoyment for their hard tasks. The frame is always, to some extent, an illusion. Nonetheless, that doesn't mean it's merely self-indulgence or folly.
posted by praemunire at 8:06 AM on October 4, 2022 [4 favorites]
I don't know her, so I don't know what she is or is not doing, or how she truly feels in the watches of the night. What I can say is this essay reads like one of two things. Either scolding about the wrong things of the kind I described above, where the war against perceived complacency usurps the war against the actual problem. Or a particular form of catastrophizing (that I recognize from my own brain) that rejects all joy, all comfort, in the march towards whatever grim conclusion.
This will not be fun, or fulfilling, or a worthy adventure of self-discovery, or a cute feel-good movie, or a task of personal validation.
Human beings generally need to believe in some sort of frame of meaning or enjoyment for their hard tasks. The frame is always, to some extent, an illusion. Nonetheless, that doesn't mean it's merely self-indulgence or folly.
posted by praemunire at 8:06 AM on October 4, 2022 [4 favorites]
(Hint: she isn't full of despair. She is fighting.)
I feel you. This thread is really a good lesson in how people understand things in such a personal way. It's easy to tear something down, but harder to explain how it spoke to you.
posted by bleep at 8:31 AM on October 4, 2022 [1 favorite]
I feel you. This thread is really a good lesson in how people understand things in such a personal way. It's easy to tear something down, but harder to explain how it spoke to you.
posted by bleep at 8:31 AM on October 4, 2022 [1 favorite]
Like, she's really not projecting these ideas out on other people. She's rejecting them when other people put them on her. Maybe you have had to experience other people tryyjng to force you to accept their bullshit to hear this in her words.
posted by bleep at 8:35 AM on October 4, 2022
posted by bleep at 8:35 AM on October 4, 2022
When you say things like
posted by praemunire at 8:42 AM on October 4, 2022 [2 favorites]
The statement “my activities used to cause immense harm, and now that level is still immense, just slightly less so” should no longer fool or comfort anyone. Raise the bar for your own ambition, and the standards you hold others to as well.You really are no longer just talking about yourself and your own feelings. We all need to find inspiration where we can, but this is not an essay of gentle personal musings offered up in the hopes that others might find some parts of it useful. "If the purity of your intents is allowing you to support harmful systems, it’s probably time to get a reality check" is the language of a lecture, in the vein of This thing is bad, actually.
posted by praemunire at 8:42 AM on October 4, 2022 [2 favorites]
Ok but her statement is also valid & something people should actually do. Look I will get kicked out of this thread if I comment too much ok. Like I said it's hard to explain why something spoke to you. But what she's saying in this essay is true, and I enjoyed it.
posted by bleep at 9:00 AM on October 4, 2022
posted by bleep at 9:00 AM on October 4, 2022
That's absolutely up to you. All I'm saying is that I don't think the majority of responses here are mischaracterizing her point--just disagreeing with it.
posted by praemunire at 9:20 AM on October 4, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by praemunire at 9:20 AM on October 4, 2022 [4 favorites]
TBH, I think the saddest part of this is her suggestions for what to do:
-- read a book
-- become an activist
-- join a union
Now I won't say any of these things are bad. I do all three. But they are hardly going to change the world more or less than eating vegetables or riding a bike instead of driving a car, unless everyone does it, and then the same applies to eating vegetables or riding a bike. If everyone became climate activists, massive change could happen. If everyone stopped eating meat, massive change would happen.
If we can persuade most people to do something good, I support whatever that is. And I think persuading many people involves some promise of happiness. And also some government involvement, in the forms of taxes and tariffs and regulations.
As some have noted above, she writes from a position of privilege. I travel by plane for work once or twice a year, but my holidays are fashionable staycations -- I can't afford a trip to Thailand and I don't miss it. I am dependent on my car for work and it is a constant stressor. I wish I could afford an EV, but I can't at all. Mostly I walk, saving the car for necessary use.
For me, systemic, political change is all important, I can't afford individual solutions beyond those I have, other than on food, and I bet a huge majority of the world's population are more like me than like professor with dual citizenship and chairs in two countries. I am happy for her privilege, that isn't it, but it is perhaps relevant to think of how little it takes to loose touch. The other day I said at one of my two jobs* that we have to remember we are in the ten percent, and my co-worker flinched. She doesn't feel privileged. But she is, even in a country where ninety percent are in the global ten percent.
*I'm in a precarious job-situation because of mental health issues. I don't feel sorry for me, so neither should you, but my change of fortunes has made me more conscious of the privilege I still have
posted by mumimor at 9:26 AM on October 4, 2022 [3 favorites]
-- read a book
-- become an activist
-- join a union
Now I won't say any of these things are bad. I do all three. But they are hardly going to change the world more or less than eating vegetables or riding a bike instead of driving a car, unless everyone does it, and then the same applies to eating vegetables or riding a bike. If everyone became climate activists, massive change could happen. If everyone stopped eating meat, massive change would happen.
If we can persuade most people to do something good, I support whatever that is. And I think persuading many people involves some promise of happiness. And also some government involvement, in the forms of taxes and tariffs and regulations.
As some have noted above, she writes from a position of privilege. I travel by plane for work once or twice a year, but my holidays are fashionable staycations -- I can't afford a trip to Thailand and I don't miss it. I am dependent on my car for work and it is a constant stressor. I wish I could afford an EV, but I can't at all. Mostly I walk, saving the car for necessary use.
For me, systemic, political change is all important, I can't afford individual solutions beyond those I have, other than on food, and I bet a huge majority of the world's population are more like me than like professor with dual citizenship and chairs in two countries. I am happy for her privilege, that isn't it, but it is perhaps relevant to think of how little it takes to loose touch. The other day I said at one of my two jobs* that we have to remember we are in the ten percent, and my co-worker flinched. She doesn't feel privileged. But she is, even in a country where ninety percent are in the global ten percent.
*I'm in a precarious job-situation because of mental health issues. I don't feel sorry for me, so neither should you, but my change of fortunes has made me more conscious of the privilege I still have
posted by mumimor at 9:26 AM on October 4, 2022 [3 favorites]
Shouldn't a thread be for the people who liked something?
posted by bleep at 9:46 AM on October 4, 2022
posted by bleep at 9:46 AM on October 4, 2022
I feel like these aren't exactly knee-jerk criticisms, though? People have articulated quite well why they think things like this can become actively harmful, or don't work for them.
posted by sagc at 9:49 AM on October 4, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by sagc at 9:49 AM on October 4, 2022 [3 favorites]
Shouldn't a thread be for the people who liked something?
Depends on the thread — yes, in a thread about your favorite/least favorite band, maybe not one about a climate polemic.
posted by snuffleupagus at 10:05 AM on October 4, 2022 [1 favorite]
Depends on the thread — yes, in a thread about your favorite/least favorite band, maybe not one about a climate polemic.
posted by snuffleupagus at 10:05 AM on October 4, 2022 [1 favorite]
A question for Europeans: In Europe, does everyone just have a union and some people choose not to join to save on the dues or out of anti-union sentiment? (Also, are these unions typically left-leaning?)
In US-specific articles written by US residents, I regularly see something like "join a union" as climate or left-leaning advice and that always seems weird. I had a union gig for fifteen years and I chose that job because it was union, but for most Americans "join a union" means "unionize your workplace" and that's a very heavy lift in this country and apt to take a long time. (It took them ten years and two NLRB elections to unionize my old job.) Some campaigns go a lot faster but many are years-long struggles.
And when you get a union, it's still made up of people. The unionizing process often moves people left, but it isn't going to transform a basically conservative person into an Earth Firster. Unions in the US are mostly about worker issues and these are not always climate issues. My old union was pretty left wing for the US even at the national level, and my old local did some climate specific stuff, but by no means every local was interested in climate justice. Frankly, we had more or less MAGA-except-for-union-issues workplaces in conservative areas.
And then there's the question of striking - again, this may be different in Europe, but it is extremely unlikely that the average union is going to strike over climate issues tout court. If it were a union where the climate crisis was directly putting them at risk, then sure, and it may be that climate demands would go in with other strike demands, but for the most part union demands are about working conditions and justice on the job.
You should definitely join a union if you have one available and if you feel that you can work to unionize your workplace you should do that. Climate-wise, that organizing and those ties are really valuable. But in your particular situation, it might be more effective to have close ties with a book group or a carpool group - running a successful union campaign is hard - unions have paid organizers to help with this - and it usually requires a little bit of union-readiness at work. It's not something where you show up individually and have a few nice chats and voila you have several hundred people ready to do a general strike.
posted by Frowner at 10:07 AM on October 4, 2022 [4 favorites]
In US-specific articles written by US residents, I regularly see something like "join a union" as climate or left-leaning advice and that always seems weird. I had a union gig for fifteen years and I chose that job because it was union, but for most Americans "join a union" means "unionize your workplace" and that's a very heavy lift in this country and apt to take a long time. (It took them ten years and two NLRB elections to unionize my old job.) Some campaigns go a lot faster but many are years-long struggles.
And when you get a union, it's still made up of people. The unionizing process often moves people left, but it isn't going to transform a basically conservative person into an Earth Firster. Unions in the US are mostly about worker issues and these are not always climate issues. My old union was pretty left wing for the US even at the national level, and my old local did some climate specific stuff, but by no means every local was interested in climate justice. Frankly, we had more or less MAGA-except-for-union-issues workplaces in conservative areas.
And then there's the question of striking - again, this may be different in Europe, but it is extremely unlikely that the average union is going to strike over climate issues tout court. If it were a union where the climate crisis was directly putting them at risk, then sure, and it may be that climate demands would go in with other strike demands, but for the most part union demands are about working conditions and justice on the job.
You should definitely join a union if you have one available and if you feel that you can work to unionize your workplace you should do that. Climate-wise, that organizing and those ties are really valuable. But in your particular situation, it might be more effective to have close ties with a book group or a carpool group - running a successful union campaign is hard - unions have paid organizers to help with this - and it usually requires a little bit of union-readiness at work. It's not something where you show up individually and have a few nice chats and voila you have several hundred people ready to do a general strike.
posted by Frowner at 10:07 AM on October 4, 2022 [4 favorites]
I think that a lot of people see Starbucks organizing on twitter, for instance, and think that's a lot easier than it really is and think that because a lot of the high-profile organizers are radical young people that any union campaign is going to be mediagenic and run by young radicals with a clear anti-capitalist and climate justice viewpoint.
Starbucks and Amazon organizing are great and they are definitely having a major, major impact on what people believe to be possible, but it is easy to generalize wrongly from those campaigns.
posted by Frowner at 10:11 AM on October 4, 2022 [2 favorites]
Starbucks and Amazon organizing are great and they are definitely having a major, major impact on what people believe to be possible, but it is easy to generalize wrongly from those campaigns.
posted by Frowner at 10:11 AM on October 4, 2022 [2 favorites]
I think I'm in one of the most unionised countries in Europe (and thus perhaps in the world), and also according to local records in a very highly unionised sector. And you have good points about it, Frowner. Unions' interests are not always global climate interests, though that is changing a bit AFAIK. Our union and our pension fund are pretty closely intertwined and the young people are demanding that the pension fund invest solely in climate-positive businesses and trusts. Earlier, unions often fought for the protection of highly polluting industries.
I think everyone should be in a union, but for other reasons than the climate. However, all things are linked. As I wrote above, precarious people have less choice, when it comes to protecting the planet. Here in this amazingly privileged country, most people stopped eating eggs from caged hens in 2016. They are still produced here, but only for industry and export. But that is because most people can afford to pay the equivalent of a dollar for an egg. Even dishwashers, nannies and supermarket cashiers. So unions are important for climate change, but in an oblique manner.
posted by mumimor at 10:19 AM on October 4, 2022 [3 favorites]
I think everyone should be in a union, but for other reasons than the climate. However, all things are linked. As I wrote above, precarious people have less choice, when it comes to protecting the planet. Here in this amazingly privileged country, most people stopped eating eggs from caged hens in 2016. They are still produced here, but only for industry and export. But that is because most people can afford to pay the equivalent of a dollar for an egg. Even dishwashers, nannies and supermarket cashiers. So unions are important for climate change, but in an oblique manner.
posted by mumimor at 10:19 AM on October 4, 2022 [3 favorites]
And then there's the question of striking - again, this may be different in Europe, but it is extremely unlikely that the average union is going to strike over climate issues tout court.
And general strikes (mentioned at the end of her piece) are actually illegal under most circumstances in the U.S.
posted by praemunire at 10:31 AM on October 4, 2022 [1 favorite]
And general strikes (mentioned at the end of her piece) are actually illegal under most circumstances in the U.S.
posted by praemunire at 10:31 AM on October 4, 2022 [1 favorite]
(And, yep, I'm very happily paying union dues now, but you can't simply will a unionized workplace into existence.)
posted by praemunire at 10:32 AM on October 4, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by praemunire at 10:32 AM on October 4, 2022 [2 favorites]
I know the Gilets Jaunes strikes in France are not generally Union-driven, but they are happening in a country where unions and strikes are strong and inspiring, and they are definitely climate denialist.
posted by mumimor at 10:37 AM on October 4, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by mumimor at 10:37 AM on October 4, 2022 [1 favorite]
Depends on the thread — yes, in a thread about your favorite/least favorite band, maybe not one about a climate polemic.
It's about how people talk to each other & relate to the truth about the current situation. It's not just about one thing. And it for sure isn't about unions or general strikes.
posted by bleep at 12:18 PM on October 4, 2022
It's about how people talk to each other & relate to the truth about the current situation. It's not just about one thing. And it for sure isn't about unions or general strikes.
posted by bleep at 12:18 PM on October 4, 2022
Wait, you think those comments are out of place? Those are great engagements with the question of how, exactly, these things would work in practice.
What sort of commentary *is* acceptable, of those aren't?
posted by sagc at 12:20 PM on October 4, 2022 [3 favorites]
What sort of commentary *is* acceptable, of those aren't?
posted by sagc at 12:20 PM on October 4, 2022 [3 favorites]
It's not just about one thing. And it for sure isn't about unions or general strikes.
I am sympathetic to the idea of "let's read with rather than against the text", but joining a union in preparation for a general strike is literally one of her recommendations instead of being comforted by the illusion that your carpool does anything.
It is the last line, so I think it's reasonable to have focused more on the body of the text, but I didn't just make it up.
She is literally saying "don't do X, do Y - join a union and prepare for a general strike". I tend to think that joining a union to prepare for a general strike is sadly not as clear or effective advice as it sounds and I think that's a reasonable thing to bring up when we're talking specifically about how some things are false comforters.
posted by Frowner at 12:30 PM on October 4, 2022 [10 favorites]
I am sympathetic to the idea of "let's read with rather than against the text", but joining a union in preparation for a general strike is literally one of her recommendations instead of being comforted by the illusion that your carpool does anything.
It is the last line, so I think it's reasonable to have focused more on the body of the text, but I didn't just make it up.
She is literally saying "don't do X, do Y - join a union and prepare for a general strike". I tend to think that joining a union to prepare for a general strike is sadly not as clear or effective advice as it sounds and I think that's a reasonable thing to bring up when we're talking specifically about how some things are false comforters.
posted by Frowner at 12:30 PM on October 4, 2022 [10 favorites]
But, fuck it—if we're going to go down, let's go down swinging. There is beauty and honor and some level of grace in the attempt, even if we cannot win.
Well, yeah, that's my opinion as well. Who knows, we might just squeak through with a surprise win after all, right? What a movie that would make! But we don't have to be miserable all the time while we do it. The beauty and honour in fighting the good fight can make us, maybe not happy, but at least somewhat content and that doesn't dilute the fight at all.
There's no doubt that we have to do more than a bit of carpooling, but that is still demonstrably better than doing nothing, although I agree there's no reason that should make us feel like we've done our part or even done our best, because that's clearly not true. We can take comfort in the small things while acknowledging that they are very small indeed and, if every car on the freeway was crammed with people, there would be a measurable change in the harmful effects of car usage. So, we shouldn't give up doing the small things - as long as we are working on the big things as well.
I think some people are making too much of the union thing - it's an 'also' statement meant to reinforce the scope of the job at hand, not a proposal for solving climate change.
posted by dg at 9:55 PM on October 4, 2022
Well, yeah, that's my opinion as well. Who knows, we might just squeak through with a surprise win after all, right? What a movie that would make! But we don't have to be miserable all the time while we do it. The beauty and honour in fighting the good fight can make us, maybe not happy, but at least somewhat content and that doesn't dilute the fight at all.
There's no doubt that we have to do more than a bit of carpooling, but that is still demonstrably better than doing nothing, although I agree there's no reason that should make us feel like we've done our part or even done our best, because that's clearly not true. We can take comfort in the small things while acknowledging that they are very small indeed and, if every car on the freeway was crammed with people, there would be a measurable change in the harmful effects of car usage. So, we shouldn't give up doing the small things - as long as we are working on the big things as well.
I think some people are making too much of the union thing - it's an 'also' statement meant to reinforce the scope of the job at hand, not a proposal for solving climate change.
posted by dg at 9:55 PM on October 4, 2022
Activism and knowledge have more potential for larger impact than merely personal changes, mumimor.
We do need everyone to be vegetarian, stop driving cars, etc. regardless, but achieving this remains possible even without everyone participating intentionally or voluntarily. We need vastly more climate activists than exist today, enough they could coerce everyone else, but way less than everyone..
We'll face pro-economy aka denialist/minimizer populist movements too, including by many union actions, but maybe she hopes climate activists win unions over?
As a union semi-friendly example, if we make concrete or metal using refracted solar, instead of coal, then at night the concrete factory shuts down, which means workers live more normal lives.
We need nationalists to take climate action too because firstly international trade must collapse, which kinda benefits unions and nationalists, and secondly nationalists provide a "dark side" that massively reduces the total required climate activists.
posted by jeffburdges at 10:41 PM on October 4, 2022
We do need everyone to be vegetarian, stop driving cars, etc. regardless, but achieving this remains possible even without everyone participating intentionally or voluntarily. We need vastly more climate activists than exist today, enough they could coerce everyone else, but way less than everyone..
We'll face pro-economy aka denialist/minimizer populist movements too, including by many union actions, but maybe she hopes climate activists win unions over?
As a union semi-friendly example, if we make concrete or metal using refracted solar, instead of coal, then at night the concrete factory shuts down, which means workers live more normal lives.
We need nationalists to take climate action too because firstly international trade must collapse, which kinda benefits unions and nationalists, and secondly nationalists provide a "dark side" that massively reduces the total required climate activists.
posted by jeffburdges at 10:41 PM on October 4, 2022
¿Por qué no los dos?
I can read a book and eat my vegs. And I can walk to my activist job.
Some people, I can persuade to eat more vegetables and some I can persuade to join in the fight. I'll take both, thank you. And not judge who can only manage one step at a time, for any reason.
The change we need is so huge, it is really hard to imagine for most people. So they do what they can imagine. We have to expand the range of the possible, open people's eyes to wider options.
Using food as an analogy: I grew up in a family where meat and seafood of all sorts were highly prized. They were not just delicious food, they were symbols of having overcome the privations of the war. My hippie aunt sometimes flirted with vegetarianism, but the alternatives to meat she presented were sad, like a slab of celeriac with a white gravy, or lentils stewed with no seasoning. She could convert no one, not even herself with that food. But then while I was a teen, my uncle got a liver disease and part of the cure was to restrain from meat. And they found an amazing macrobiotic restaurant, where we were served 8-course vegan (macrobiotic) meals. The beauty of the presentation and the delicious complexity of the tastes were very convincing and inspiring. Two generations later, vegetables play the main role in my whole wider family, with animal protein as sides or special day treats. Some family members are vegans, others are omnivores, but all have changed their ways because of inspiration and joy, rather than moralizing and doomsaying.
I know we don't have the time for change to happen through two generations, but my solution would then be much more beauty, not more doom.
posted by mumimor at 11:58 PM on October 4, 2022 [4 favorites]
I can read a book and eat my vegs. And I can walk to my activist job.
Some people, I can persuade to eat more vegetables and some I can persuade to join in the fight. I'll take both, thank you. And not judge who can only manage one step at a time, for any reason.
The change we need is so huge, it is really hard to imagine for most people. So they do what they can imagine. We have to expand the range of the possible, open people's eyes to wider options.
Using food as an analogy: I grew up in a family where meat and seafood of all sorts were highly prized. They were not just delicious food, they were symbols of having overcome the privations of the war. My hippie aunt sometimes flirted with vegetarianism, but the alternatives to meat she presented were sad, like a slab of celeriac with a white gravy, or lentils stewed with no seasoning. She could convert no one, not even herself with that food. But then while I was a teen, my uncle got a liver disease and part of the cure was to restrain from meat. And they found an amazing macrobiotic restaurant, where we were served 8-course vegan (macrobiotic) meals. The beauty of the presentation and the delicious complexity of the tastes were very convincing and inspiring. Two generations later, vegetables play the main role in my whole wider family, with animal protein as sides or special day treats. Some family members are vegans, others are omnivores, but all have changed their ways because of inspiration and joy, rather than moralizing and doomsaying.
I know we don't have the time for change to happen through two generations, but my solution would then be much more beauty, not more doom.
posted by mumimor at 11:58 PM on October 4, 2022 [4 favorites]
She's not saying everyone feel like shit all the time. She's saying she's not content to pretend everything is ok when it isn't.
posted by bleep at 6:52 AM on October 5, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by bleep at 6:52 AM on October 5, 2022 [1 favorite]
I didn't say any comments were out of place. I just wish people had given this piece a chance.
posted by bleep at 6:53 AM on October 5, 2022
posted by bleep at 6:53 AM on October 5, 2022
And people can also think your assessment isn't correct. So it goes.
Nobody will fight for a joyless future. Fortunately, it is possible to honestly promise that the future will be joyful:
She specifically says that joy remains, so that's why I don't understand why people didn't take that part in. Parts of the response are only to parts of her piece.
Mostly I get frustrated at the utter eviscerating of any piece about climate change and feelings about climate change that contains any negative emotion. I don't feel that negative emotions or thoughts about this are ugly or ridiculous, or need to be countered so vehemently. My own hang up, I suppose.
posted by tiny frying pan at 5:23 AM on October 6, 2022 [1 favorite]
Nobody will fight for a joyless future. Fortunately, it is possible to honestly promise that the future will be joyful:
She specifically says that joy remains, so that's why I don't understand why people didn't take that part in. Parts of the response are only to parts of her piece.
Mostly I get frustrated at the utter eviscerating of any piece about climate change and feelings about climate change that contains any negative emotion. I don't feel that negative emotions or thoughts about this are ugly or ridiculous, or need to be countered so vehemently. My own hang up, I suppose.
posted by tiny frying pan at 5:23 AM on October 6, 2022 [1 favorite]
I distinguish climate change pieces into those referencing cannibalism, including clear but veiled ones like The Dark Forest by Cixin Liu, as well as those not referencing cannibalism, with no cannibalism discussion reasonably approximating joyful.
posted by jeffburdges at 5:58 AM on October 6, 2022
posted by jeffburdges at 5:58 AM on October 6, 2022
Well, one measure could be the impact of the piece: who, and how many will change their ways because of it? I'm thinking close to zero. I'm not going to fly more or less after reading it. And I'm not going to read more or less. That isn't a problem, because I am part of the choir.
If I were to show this to those of my friends who are conservative, and who have just begun to acknowledge the gravity of our common situation, they would turn their back on me and her right away. They are not going to be scared or shamed into action.
IMO this is a feel-good piece for flagellants. Specifically for globe-trotting academic flagellants.
posted by mumimor at 7:43 AM on October 6, 2022 [4 favorites]
If I were to show this to those of my friends who are conservative, and who have just begun to acknowledge the gravity of our common situation, they would turn their back on me and her right away. They are not going to be scared or shamed into action.
IMO this is a feel-good piece for flagellants. Specifically for globe-trotting academic flagellants.
posted by mumimor at 7:43 AM on October 6, 2022 [4 favorites]
I think part of the reason we're at cross-purposes is that she greatly circumscribes the things that are allowed to bring people joy, and quite firmly declares comfort to be over. For a lot of people, there's no joy whatsoever in activism or struggle or striking or grasping at survival. I certainly don't derive any joy from those things.
And aside from the unending doomed struggle here are the enumerated things we are allowed to rejoice in:
because we should rejoice at the good things in the world around us: babies screaming, smiling, drooling and making their loving carers work hard, migratory birds making their way back & forth across the globe, trees reaching far into the air and soil, tasty healthy meals with friends and family, beautiful cool mornings and lovely rainy days.
So that's:
1. Literally the most obnoxious things babies do
2. How hard it is to be a parent (?!?!)
3. Birds
4. Trees
5. Meals (but only, of course, vegan ones that don't come from exploitative farming!)
6. Weather
Frankly, 1-2 are a fucking nightmare to me, 3 and 4 are rare in my dense urban life, she would absolutely NOT approve of me rejoicing in any of the meals I eat, and ok, that leaves weather. Woot?
Like, her whole experience of the world is valid and I again, am glad she is finding structure and strength in whatever this is, but it bears 0% resemblance to my experience of the world, and therefore I just don't find it resonant or useful to me.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 10:23 AM on October 6, 2022 [4 favorites]
And aside from the unending doomed struggle here are the enumerated things we are allowed to rejoice in:
because we should rejoice at the good things in the world around us: babies screaming, smiling, drooling and making their loving carers work hard, migratory birds making their way back & forth across the globe, trees reaching far into the air and soil, tasty healthy meals with friends and family, beautiful cool mornings and lovely rainy days.
So that's:
1. Literally the most obnoxious things babies do
2. How hard it is to be a parent (?!?!)
3. Birds
4. Trees
5. Meals (but only, of course, vegan ones that don't come from exploitative farming!)
6. Weather
Frankly, 1-2 are a fucking nightmare to me, 3 and 4 are rare in my dense urban life, she would absolutely NOT approve of me rejoicing in any of the meals I eat, and ok, that leaves weather. Woot?
Like, her whole experience of the world is valid and I again, am glad she is finding structure and strength in whatever this is, but it bears 0% resemblance to my experience of the world, and therefore I just don't find it resonant or useful to me.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 10:23 AM on October 6, 2022 [4 favorites]
Er, or to actually make my point: People who are saying she describes a joyless future aren't saying that because SHE is joyless, but because THEY would find living as she does deeply joyless. And I mean, if she's allowed to have her feelings, aren't we allowed to have ours as well?
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 10:24 AM on October 6, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 10:24 AM on October 6, 2022 [2 favorites]
Ain't my favorite article either. As an engineer of sorts, I'll always find joy in "being slightly more efficient", or "less worse". It's innately human to enjoy optimization imho.
I also think riding bikes or not eating meat do help us move society towards do facto banning cars and meat. Yet, I do support her overarching point that only systemic change really counts though. We need political moves towards bans on cars and meat, not merely more people riding bikes or not eating meat.
Above, I linked Roger Hallam speaking about converting nationalists, although not conservatives more broadly.
We need nationalists to help impose policies like rationing, which they'll ultimately provide because (a) our native shortages causes messes, and (b) either feed people further south or else they move north. We do however share many common causes with them here, like nationalists love trade restrictions and on-shoring production.
I'm also a hardcore optimist really.. It'll become way easier to ban meat eating once some larger islands have adopted cannibalism for example. Yet, we'd prefer if meat were taxed into oblivion long before they inevitably do so.
posted by jeffburdges at 6:02 AM on October 8, 2022
I also think riding bikes or not eating meat do help us move society towards do facto banning cars and meat. Yet, I do support her overarching point that only systemic change really counts though. We need political moves towards bans on cars and meat, not merely more people riding bikes or not eating meat.
Above, I linked Roger Hallam speaking about converting nationalists, although not conservatives more broadly.
We need nationalists to help impose policies like rationing, which they'll ultimately provide because (a) our native shortages causes messes, and (b) either feed people further south or else they move north. We do however share many common causes with them here, like nationalists love trade restrictions and on-shoring production.
I'm also a hardcore optimist really.. It'll become way easier to ban meat eating once some larger islands have adopted cannibalism for example. Yet, we'd prefer if meat were taxed into oblivion long before they inevitably do so.
posted by jeffburdges at 6:02 AM on October 8, 2022
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