Depp v Heard: who trolled Amber?
February 27, 2024 3:52 PM Subscribe
No surprises there. Amber Heard was smeared all over the internets by what was obviously a campaign to convince the masses that she was the one who was abusive, etc.; and it was even successful, much to my disgust (have you guys even read about Johnny Depp)?
posted by jokeefe at 4:38 PM on February 27 [23 favorites]
posted by jokeefe at 4:38 PM on February 27 [23 favorites]
I can believe that the whole thing was a well-funded artificial campaign by a secretive set of bad-faith actors, using disinformation and black propaganda to advance the causes of autocratic governments and dictatorships, because let's face it international relations works this way now, but I have never had a good explanation for 'why Heard'. Why this particular actor. I don't get it.
posted by Fiasco da Gama at 4:46 PM on February 27 [1 favorite]
posted by Fiasco da Gama at 4:46 PM on February 27 [1 favorite]
I suspect it may be as simple as "Depp's got stans."
posted by praemunire at 4:55 PM on February 27 [13 favorites]
posted by praemunire at 4:55 PM on February 27 [13 favorites]
or it could be testing the waters on something less significant before trying it on something like a political campaign
posted by kokaku at 4:57 PM on February 27 [30 favorites]
posted by kokaku at 4:57 PM on February 27 [30 favorites]
I can believe that the whole thing was a well-funded artificial campaign by a secretive set of bad-faith actors, using disinformation and black propaganda to advance the causes of autocratic governments and dictatorships, because let's face it international relations works this way now, but I have never had a good explanation for 'why Heard'. Why this particular actor. I don't get it.
The link says that Saudi Arabia has financed two of Johnny Depp's movies, which gives them a direct incentive to defend Depp by maligning Amber Heard. Depp even calls himself a friend of Crown Prince Mohammad bin Salman. As far why Saudi Arabia is financing movies, I suppose it's a way to use the Kingdom's vast oil wealth to flex some "soft power."
posted by jonp72 at 5:05 PM on February 27 [8 favorites]
The link says that Saudi Arabia has financed two of Johnny Depp's movies, which gives them a direct incentive to defend Depp by maligning Amber Heard. Depp even calls himself a friend of Crown Prince Mohammad bin Salman. As far why Saudi Arabia is financing movies, I suppose it's a way to use the Kingdom's vast oil wealth to flex some "soft power."
posted by jonp72 at 5:05 PM on February 27 [8 favorites]
Didn't we already know this?
posted by kittens for breakfast at 5:13 PM on February 27 [3 favorites]
posted by kittens for breakfast at 5:13 PM on February 27 [3 favorites]
There was a recent "Insiders say Depp is now weighing a seven-figure annual contract” post, which was about a Vanity Fair article with the title “Inside Johnny Depp’s Epic Bromance With Saudi Crown Prince MBS”. Maybe the bot army was part of the courting ritual?
But I dunno because I didn’t read it because it was about the former pirate guy.
posted by house-goblin at 5:15 PM on February 27 [3 favorites]
But I dunno because I didn’t read it because it was about the former pirate guy.
posted by house-goblin at 5:15 PM on February 27 [3 favorites]
So many people are vying to be the literal worst person.
posted by aramaic at 5:28 PM on February 27 [27 favorites]
posted by aramaic at 5:28 PM on February 27 [27 favorites]
So gross, but yes, please more of this has to come out. It was so obvious at the time - not that many people care that deeply about Johnny Depp, the only explanation was a bot army.
posted by Toddles at 5:31 PM on February 27 [16 favorites]
posted by Toddles at 5:31 PM on February 27 [16 favorites]
I believe the Daily Wire was also mixed up in the astroturfing/smear campaign too.
posted by TheKaijuCommuter at 5:33 PM on February 27 [8 favorites]
posted by TheKaijuCommuter at 5:33 PM on February 27 [8 favorites]
from the article:
So what? This is more than a celebrity spat. Manufactured online hate against Heard could have jeopardised her right to a fair trial. More broadly, the widespread use of bots and trolls has a potential impact on everything we consume online, from news to political debate.
three things:
1) for the latter, the impact of bots and trolls is not at all potential, it's actual and ubiquitous
2) a threat to the right to a fair trial concerns everyone, regardless of the celebrity gossip parties involved
3) "manufactured" online hate. Hm. What about 'naturally occurring' online hate? Is there a difference?
posted by bartleby at 5:38 PM on February 27 [9 favorites]
So what? This is more than a celebrity spat. Manufactured online hate against Heard could have jeopardised her right to a fair trial. More broadly, the widespread use of bots and trolls has a potential impact on everything we consume online, from news to political debate.
three things:
1) for the latter, the impact of bots and trolls is not at all potential, it's actual and ubiquitous
2) a threat to the right to a fair trial concerns everyone, regardless of the celebrity gossip parties involved
3) "manufactured" online hate. Hm. What about 'naturally occurring' online hate? Is there a difference?
posted by bartleby at 5:38 PM on February 27 [9 favorites]
I fucking knew it. Validating to see actual evidence, but also so awful.
posted by augustimagination at 5:40 PM on February 27 [9 favorites]
posted by augustimagination at 5:40 PM on February 27 [9 favorites]
3) "manufactured" online hate. Hm. What about 'naturally occurring' online hate? Is there a difference?
All online hate being of human production, it is all manufactured. It's just a question of whether it's factory mass-produced or artisinal cottage industry hate.
posted by Dysk at 5:43 PM on February 27 [25 favorites]
All online hate being of human production, it is all manufactured. It's just a question of whether it's factory mass-produced or artisinal cottage industry hate.
posted by Dysk at 5:43 PM on February 27 [25 favorites]
Does anyone remember when Ivanka was in Saudi Arabia giving a speech, and it was during the unveiling of a new Saudi (?) initiative where somehow a room full of PC workstations was involved, and certainly this room of people was destined for nothing other than online propaganda and trolling, and she said something like "Now that's what I call entrepreneurship!"
Maybe it was all just a bad dream. Anyway this reminded me of that. Maybe they're practicing their Gamergating before the elections.
posted by credulous at 5:59 PM on February 27 [4 favorites]
Maybe it was all just a bad dream. Anyway this reminded me of that. Maybe they're practicing their Gamergating before the elections.
posted by credulous at 5:59 PM on February 27 [4 favorites]
It is disheartening to see how effective the bot army is.
posted by LegallyBread at 6:37 PM on February 27 [6 favorites]
posted by LegallyBread at 6:37 PM on February 27 [6 favorites]
I'm old enough to remember when "trolling" was an effort to evoke a supposedly humorous reaction from a person or community through some sort of contrarian behavior, not carrier-grade targeted-harassment-as-a-service in service of state-actor psy-op/disinformation campaigns.
Things change, I guess, but I still feel like we should call things by their real names.
posted by mhoye at 7:00 PM on February 27 [14 favorites]
Things change, I guess, but I still feel like we should call things by their real names.
posted by mhoye at 7:00 PM on February 27 [14 favorites]
I've used Depp/Heard twice now in literature classes to explain poststructuralism: there's no transcendental referent here, because all the "truth" is subjective. What they said to each other, what people choose to believe about it, etc. It's been really effective.
posted by outgrown_hobnail at 7:23 PM on February 27 [1 favorite]
posted by outgrown_hobnail at 7:23 PM on February 27 [1 favorite]
Timeline's interesting. Depp accepted the role of Louis XV in Jeanne du Barry in 2019. The official casting announcement was in January 2022: "Paris-based Why Not Productions (A Prophet) are producing. Wild Bunch International are handling worldwide sales and will introduce the project to buyers at next month’s European Film Market in Berlin." In the Vanity Fair article (Feb. 14, 2024), Prince Badr bin Farhan Al Saud [cousin to MBS] was eager to meet with Depp in July 2022: "By investing millions in the project via Saudi Arabia’s Red Sea Film Fund, he has earned the right to an audience with the star." The official announcement of Red Sea Film Foundation's financial backing of Jeanne du Barry was in January 2023.
The Virginia trial ran April 11 to June 1, 2022; that December, Heard and Depp reached a settlement and dropped their respective appeals. The bot army was hard at work in Spring 2022 -- for example, BuzzFeed covered the social media commentary on April 29, 2022, noting "On Facebook, there have been 1,667 posts this week using the hashtag supporting Depp, with a total of over 7 million interactions (likes and shares)."
posted by Iris Gambol at 7:35 PM on February 27 [3 favorites]
The Virginia trial ran April 11 to June 1, 2022; that December, Heard and Depp reached a settlement and dropped their respective appeals. The bot army was hard at work in Spring 2022 -- for example, BuzzFeed covered the social media commentary on April 29, 2022, noting "On Facebook, there have been 1,667 posts this week using the hashtag supporting Depp, with a total of over 7 million interactions (likes and shares)."
posted by Iris Gambol at 7:35 PM on February 27 [3 favorites]
The Soviets had a word for it: Dezi, short for "DEZINFORMATSIYA"
posted by torokunai at 7:45 PM on February 27 [4 favorites]
posted by torokunai at 7:45 PM on February 27 [4 favorites]
The Depp State
posted by star gentle uterus at 9:05 PM on February 27 [28 favorites]
posted by star gentle uterus at 9:05 PM on February 27 [28 favorites]
> As far why Saudi Arabia is financing movies, I suppose it's a way to use the Kingdom's vast oil wealth to flex some "soft power."
I imagine it’s this, and also the same reason why they're doing this with soccer too.
posted by d_hill at 10:29 PM on February 27 [1 favorite]
I imagine it’s this, and also the same reason why they're doing this with soccer too.
posted by d_hill at 10:29 PM on February 27 [1 favorite]
I'm old enough to remember when "trolling" was an effort to evoke a supposedly humorous reaction from a person or community through some sort of contrarian behavior, not carrier-grade targeted-harassment-as-a-service in service of state-actor psy-op/disinformation campaigns.
I'm not convinced those two things are that different, really.
posted by Dysk at 11:32 PM on February 27 [4 favorites]
I'm not convinced those two things are that different, really.
posted by Dysk at 11:32 PM on February 27 [4 favorites]
I don't understand why Tortoise felt a need to accompany its article with a digitally mangled photo portraying the victim as unsettling and freakish. Is that its house style, or just another totally gratuitous bit of Amber bashing?
posted by flabdablet at 2:48 AM on February 28 [2 favorites]
posted by flabdablet at 2:48 AM on February 28 [2 favorites]
I acknowledge this is likely an "as long as I'm dreaming I'd also like a pony" kind of thought, but -
DAMN I want Amber Heard to sue the Saudi government for defamation.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 4:32 AM on February 28 [3 favorites]
DAMN I want Amber Heard to sue the Saudi government for defamation.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 4:32 AM on February 28 [3 favorites]
So many people are vying to be the literal worst person.
Apparently, there’s really good money in it.
posted by Thorzdad at 4:44 AM on February 28 [5 favorites]
Apparently, there’s really good money in it.
posted by Thorzdad at 4:44 AM on February 28 [5 favorites]
"DEZINFORMATSIYA"
The Lithuanians have been have been trying to combat that wave of bullshit for quite some time.
In 2009, the ministry of defense founded the Counter Hybrid Response Group to monitor and combat the propaganda and disinformation directed toward Lithuanians.
in addition there is the Strategic Communications Department (STRATCOM) of the Lithuanian Armed Forces,
along with thousands of volunteers loosely organized calling themselves elves
posted by yyz at 7:11 AM on February 28 [1 favorite]
The Lithuanians have been have been trying to combat that wave of bullshit for quite some time.
In 2009, the ministry of defense founded the Counter Hybrid Response Group to monitor and combat the propaganda and disinformation directed toward Lithuanians.
in addition there is the Strategic Communications Department (STRATCOM) of the Lithuanian Armed Forces,
along with thousands of volunteers loosely organized calling themselves elves
posted by yyz at 7:11 AM on February 28 [1 favorite]
Iris Gambol's timeline is useful; I'd append to the front end of it this Rolling Stone profile that probably did as much damage to Depp's public image as anything. (Discussion of that article previously on the blue; see also this and this about the trial.)
posted by Halloween Jack at 7:17 AM on February 28 [3 favorites]
posted by Halloween Jack at 7:17 AM on February 28 [3 favorites]
> So many people are vying to be the literal worst person.
AI's gonna take that job, too.
posted by The Card Cheat at 8:24 AM on February 28 [7 favorites]
AI's gonna take that job, too.
posted by The Card Cheat at 8:24 AM on February 28 [7 favorites]
One thing that still bothers me about this entire things is how it really proves how mundane the male violence was, when compared to the more exotic allure of the "crazy ex girlfriend" mythos that was crafted around Heard.
Like you could point out to an Amber Heard hater that Depp straight up confessed to lying about multiple parts of his story (i.e. the cut finger story) and that there's photo and video evidence of him physically endangering and harming Heard... but they won't care because that's boring.
I had a few friends that were deep into the pro-Depp shit, and a lot of the appeal was due to the sheer novelty of a beautiful hollywood actress potentially being some psychopathic bed-shitter. They talked about Depp's abuse like it was just a given. It was basically "Angry men hurt their wives, whatever, can we get back to speculating about Heard's sex life?".
The absolute scale of misogyny in this world is such that there is always an acceptable baseline level of violence against women, and we have to ignore it to get to the more interesting/flashy parts of a story.
posted by Pemberly at 9:56 AM on February 28 [12 favorites]
Like you could point out to an Amber Heard hater that Depp straight up confessed to lying about multiple parts of his story (i.e. the cut finger story) and that there's photo and video evidence of him physically endangering and harming Heard... but they won't care because that's boring.
I had a few friends that were deep into the pro-Depp shit, and a lot of the appeal was due to the sheer novelty of a beautiful hollywood actress potentially being some psychopathic bed-shitter. They talked about Depp's abuse like it was just a given. It was basically "Angry men hurt their wives, whatever, can we get back to speculating about Heard's sex life?".
The absolute scale of misogyny in this world is such that there is always an acceptable baseline level of violence against women, and we have to ignore it to get to the more interesting/flashy parts of a story.
posted by Pemberly at 9:56 AM on February 28 [12 favorites]
It was obvious someone with deep pockets was funding the smears against Heard and every journalist who said anything supportive of Heard on Twitter but the mystery was always who was paying for it all. A friend speculated it was related to MRA and this was a test case. But the Saudis makes even more sense because there's unlimited money there, so why not?
posted by subdee at 4:25 PM on February 28 [2 favorites]
posted by subdee at 4:25 PM on February 28 [2 favorites]
Also I said this in the last Depp v Heard thread but I hope we won't have to wait for too long for the complete reversal of public opinion where Amber Heard is concerned, because it will happen eventually, imo it's just a question of how long it will take. Already the people who keep following this case because they care and not because it's the gossip du jour, are coming away with a very different impression of the facts of the case than what we saw at the height of the bot campaign.
posted by subdee at 4:48 PM on February 28 [4 favorites]
posted by subdee at 4:48 PM on February 28 [4 favorites]
the complete reversal of public opinion where Amber Heard is concerned
Hmm again. I'm curious about this theory's ideas regarding a) what public opinion is now, and b) what is the reverse of that position
posted by bartleby at 8:58 AM on February 29
Hmm again. I'm curious about this theory's ideas regarding a) what public opinion is now, and b) what is the reverse of that position
posted by bartleby at 8:58 AM on February 29
Catching Empathy, and How Bots Made You Hate Amber Heard (Rebecca Watson, Piped/YouTube, 8m43s)
posted by flabdablet at 12:46 PM on March 1 [1 favorite]
posted by flabdablet at 12:46 PM on March 1 [1 favorite]
The public opinion - or the manufactured perception of public opinion during the trial - was that Amber Heard was a lying psychopath and abuser.
The reversal of public opinion would be that she is neither a lying psychopath nor an abuser. Those were lies specifically spread by Johnny Depp and his legal team to discredit her.
posted by subdee at 5:02 PM on March 1
The reversal of public opinion would be that she is neither a lying psychopath nor an abuser. Those were lies specifically spread by Johnny Depp and his legal team to discredit her.
posted by subdee at 5:02 PM on March 1
My guess is that it'll take 2-3 decades to sometime after she's dead for that level of change to come about. It's taken a few decades for people to realize that maybe they shouldn't have treated Britney, et al. in the ways they have, after all.
posted by jenfullmoon at 5:55 PM on March 1 [1 favorite]
posted by jenfullmoon at 5:55 PM on March 1 [1 favorite]
Be realistic. This corn harvest isn't going to bountiful itself now is it?
posted by flabdablet at 11:47 PM on March 1 [1 favorite]
posted by flabdablet at 11:47 PM on March 1 [1 favorite]
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