Ceci n'est pas un curry

February 29, 2024 7:54 AM

From Britain's to Japan's, in between there is no single dish or word "curry" in its county-of-origin, India. Yet this family of dishes comprises one of world's favorite foods. It can describe anything from “a sauce or gravy—it can be with or without spices" (Raghavan Iyer, 660 Curries) to "shorthand glossing over an entire subcontinent’s worth of food. It’s the type of concept that takes what it wants from the original, and mixes in whatever else is ready-to-hand" (MyAnnoyingOpinions). Historians believe that inerudite British colonizers anglicized the Tamil கறி kaṟi, meaning "sauce," and exported it as a blanket term for any spiced dish from South Asia. Thai and Malaysian curries have their own origin. Yet, curries still have a history older than colonialism (previously). From bunny chow to monty python, what's your favorite curry?
posted by rubatan (38 comments total)

Can't wait to dive into this one! Just last night, I watched a Townsends episode where they cooked up a 350-year-old curry recipe.
posted by xedrik at 8:07 AM on February 29 [2 favorites]

I am loving these deep-dive food posts--thank you to everyone who crafted them!
posted by indexy at 8:11 AM on February 29 [4 favorites]

Thanks cupcakeninja and clavdivs for getting us started.
posted by rubatan at 8:14 AM on February 29 [2 favorites]

My favorite curry is usually the one I am preparing to eat.
posted by GenjiandProust at 8:22 AM on February 29 [6 favorites]

Panang (พะแนง) curry, by far. I LOVE IT SO MUCH.
posted by grumpybear69 at 8:30 AM on February 29 [3 favorites]

For MFers in the Twin Cities area, the “myannoyingopinions” fellow has some really terrific local restaurant reviews. He is much foodier than me but super reliable and a fine writer.
posted by Gilgamesh's Chauffeur at 8:42 AM on February 29 [2 favorites]

Oh, also he posts his own recipes. I’ve made a couple and they were good and made me feel a *touch* more authentic (whatever that means).
posted by Gilgamesh's Chauffeur at 8:43 AM on February 29

from the MyAnnoyingOpinions link:

Even if you believe that the word “curry” is of colonial origin—and even this is not a settled thing—it is highly blinkered to think that any current use of the term “curry” by Indians is therefore in thrall to (neo)colonialism. If anything, that kind of conviction cedes too much ground and power to the discourse of colonialism, allowing it to always set the terms.

Sorry but as someone of Indian descent (albeit in the diaspora), I can't agree with this. By this thinking, you can't object to anything that colonialism has popularized.

Like - colonialism IS powerful, and has literally set the terms! That's the problem!

I find the arguments in that link that the word 'curry', when referring to Indian dishes, is fine and used by Indians themselves to be specious and unconvincing. My viewpoint is, to the extent you see the word 'curry' on an English menu in India, it's often likely to be the result of the translator thinking "hmm, English-speaking non-Indians won't have any idea what this means, let's just go with 'curry'", not because Indians themselves call that dish a curry. Or in some cases, it's because colonialism has a tendency to reprogram its subjects and modify/reduce their language. I'm fine with being corrected on all this, I'm just skeptical and feel like there's an agenda there.
posted by naju at 8:48 AM on February 29 [5 favorites]

When we were students [cripes!] 50 years ago, my SO and I went out for dinner at the (Dublin) Taj Mahal with a mutual friend who'd been born in Middlesborough but grown up in Galway - 'twas a long way from Indian restaurants she was r'ared. This was long and long before chicken tikka marsala became the most popular meal in Britain, and the Taj put helpful notes in brackets (mild, medium, hot, very hot) after the dishes on the menu so as not to frighten the horses surprise the clientelle too much.

It was bit like the three bears in the fairy story. The Beloved plunked for Vindaloo (very hot) because her mother sprinkled chili on her cornflakes; I'm so boring (as child I always asked for plaice&chips at any restaurant) that I ordered something 'medium' and our pal cautiously picked a 'mild'. It wasn't a bit like the three bears in the actuality. We all struggled, none of the dishes was 'too cold' or 'just right', they were all, as we perceived them, 🔥flaming🔥hot🔥. How does that work? Is it nature or nurture? Can you train yourself up to tolerate chilis that create physical blisters in the naive?
posted by BobTheScientist at 9:00 AM on February 29 [2 favorites]

How does that work? Is it nature or nurture? Can you train yourself up to tolerate chilis that create physical blisters in the naive?
I asked an Indian friend this exact question, and her reply was: a bit of both. Not all Indian traditions are spicy, but it is likely that the people in the regions that love spicy food are more tolerant. However, children are gradually habituated to more spicy food deliberately, at least where she comes from. After that conversation, 25 years ago, I have been training, and I can definitely eat spicier food today.

An other thank you for the great food posts. I'm a bit under the weather these days, and the food FPPs brighten my day.
posted by mumimor at 9:54 AM on February 29 [2 favorites]

We (Indians) do use the British word "curry", but differently. It indicates something liquidy, and is always said in conjunction with the principal ingredient, like "chicken curry".

Nobody would say the word by itself, like "I love curry", because that's meaningless, like saying "I love sauce".

There's no such thing as "curry powder" any more than there is "sauce powder". We do use wet and dry ground spices, including blends called masalas, but they are tailored to the specific ingredients and regional styles.

The only single ingredient referred to as "curry" is the leaves of the curry/kari plant, Murraya koenigii, which has nothing to do with the other use of the word.

The sooner you stop thinking of "curry" as a thing, the better your understanding of Indian food will be.
posted by splitpeasoup at 10:02 AM on February 29 [15 favorites]

I became enamored of Japanese curry when I studied abroad over there, and was dismayed when I came home that it would be really hard to find it again. Fortunately, a few years later, I found a small Asian grocer who carried the brand I liked.

Then they closed!

But then global commerce had advanced to such a point that I could just order big packs of it online and have it shipped straight to me. Now it's a staple in the house. Nothing better on a cold winter night than settling in with a big ol' bowl of rice and a heaping pile of curry.
posted by Zargon X at 10:10 AM on February 29 [3 favorites]

How does that work? Is it nature or nurture? Can you train yourself up to tolerate chilis that create physical blisters in the naive?

blisters, wow.

your capsaicin receptors will down regulate if you eat spicy food more regularly (and upregulate when you stop) so you can train yourself to handle certain types of spicy foods better. I have done this myself: I used to be a barely-jalapeno level, now I am a little bit of habanero level. its nice because although I'm not trying to win any contests I don't have to worry so much that a moderately spicy meal is going to overwhelm me. YMMV.
posted by supermedusa at 11:34 AM on February 29 [3 favorites]

Well, Thai and Malaysian and Japanese curries are a thing though. Outside of South Asia, the word curry today is synechdocic: in these East Asian cuisines "curry" refers to the flavor profile primarily consisting of turmeric, cumin, and shallots, and variations on top of that base (such as mustard seed, kari leaf and fenugreek, alliums, chile, etc). There's no linguistic confusion because today it is clear from context. It is bad that this borrowed word has a distorted meaning through tone-deaf British colonialism, but the fact is there is a particular base flavor profile, with Indian origins, that is beloved around the world today.
posted by polymodus at 11:42 AM on February 29 [3 favorites]

that's meaningless, like saying "I love sauce"

but...but i do love sauce
posted by mittens at 11:45 AM on February 29 [12 favorites]

"Sauce powder" sounds pretty awesome.

And I have "curry powder" in my spice drawer, and it is some pretty good shit. Whatever it is.

And the Chinese chili spice powder that is pretty awesome.
posted by Windopaene at 11:45 AM on February 29

Ditto supermedusa.

I'd be very wary if you're creating blisters, that would suggest a level of cytotoxicity you don't want to mess with. There are multiple mechanisms of acclimatization, one is down-regulation of TrpV1, another is up-regulation of inhibitory (endorphin) signalling to suppress the response. There is a neural ablation animal model performed by injecting capsaicin into the peritoneal cavity. It causes the death of all neurons expressing TrpV1. Typically the animal stops breathing (because the vagus nerve is important and signalling gets overwhelmed) and the animal is held on a respirator to keep it alive until the acute effects wear off. Presumably, the post-response endorphin signaling would not prevent the cytotoxicity. I'd say getting those levels of capsaicin would be hard, but I think the abundance of chile pepper challenges and hospitalizations each year would suggest its not. In a more minor sense, I've also been told by some pretty famous neuroscientists that they were unexpectedly sensitized to capsaicin & inflammation, irreversibly, after particular chile eating sessions and they can no longer eat spicy food.

That said, huge fan of capsaicin and its accompanying inebriating stupor. I once asked Ardem Patapoutian "what's your favorite ligand?" Mine was capsaicin.
posted by rubatan at 11:53 AM on February 29 [5 favorites]

Fortunately, a few years later, I found a small Asian grocer who carried the brand I liked.
Zargon X, what is your favorite brand? I've sort of settled on Java Hot, heavily doctored up, as the closest I'll find to what I want. I've tried Golden, Vermont, Kokumaro, House... curious where you landed!
posted by xedrik at 11:58 AM on February 29 [2 favorites]

Just gonna leave this here (IYKYK)
posted by torokunai at 12:33 PM on February 29 [2 favorites]

My father, who learned to cook in the Australian 1940s and 1950s, used to make a ‘curry’ which involved lamb, butter, curry powder, sultanas, apple, flour, all kinds of things. Obviously it bore absolutely no resemblance to any food from SE Asia or the subcontinent, and was more like a big French sauce or meat curry gravy. It was only as an adult studying that I found a recipe from the early 19th century that was supposed to teach English people ‘curries’ and Indian food, which looked very very similar, and realised my Dad’s recipe was probably about ~150 years old, a transplanted copy of a recipe from colony to metropolis back to colony.
posted by Fiasco da Gama at 12:42 PM on February 29 [4 favorites]

I've tried Golden, Vermont, Kokumaro, House... curious where you landed!

xedrik I started as a House fan, but I've ultimately settled on Golden as my go-to. I'm slowly building up the ambition to actually try making my own roux from scratch someday soon...
posted by Zargon X at 1:00 PM on February 29 [2 favorites]

Mark me down as another Golden fan. It may just be first time bias, since it was the first I had, but I ate a lot of 100 yen curry on my rice when I was broke and in Tokyo. I'd grab whatever was on sale at the store, so I tried Vermont, House, and Kokumaro, but I like Golden best of all.

These days even Wal-Mart carries Japanese curry roux, so it's not hard to get anymore.

I'm rather fond of some Thai curries, which are definitely at least somewhat related to some Indian dishes but like Japanese curry are their own thing so I think applying the term "curry" isn't improper.

And I've noticed that some brands of Indian sauce in a jar are either putting the word curry into smaller font or even omitting it entirely and just saying "tikka masala" for example. Which I know isn't a traditional Indian thing either but baby steps.
posted by sotonohito at 1:42 PM on February 29 [1 favorite]

Review of "Taste Makers: Seven Immigrant Women Who Revolutionised Food in America"

https://www.lrb.co.uk/the-paper/v44/n06/bee-wilson/too-specific-and-too-vague

"At the base of the dish, whether it is made with vegetables or fish or meat or a can of chickpeas, there is almost always a sliced or chopped onion, cooked until sweet and soft in oil. Then lots of garlic, finely grated, and maybe the same amount of freshly grated ginger."

This is the base that I worked out for myself once I got divorced and no longer had to worry about how "spicy" I was making food. Obviously wonderful for Indian and Asian cooking - but it also does good things to meat loaf or ragout or bolognese.
posted by Barbara Spitzer at 2:00 PM on February 29 [1 favorite]

Just gonna leave this here (IYKYK)

torokunai, that's a naan starter.
;)
posted by Greg_Ace at 2:02 PM on February 29 [8 favorites]

If it takes tone deaf British colonialists to identify a useful generalisation to get people to eat something new then I am on their side.

Here in England "curry" basically means what polymodus said, if homemade (though I'd mention coriander); or specifically saucy things you might choose at an Indian restaurant. If you see curry on a menu you're either in a chip shop or a Thai restaurant (where curry is pressed into service as a good enough translation of gaeng)
posted by doiheartwentyone at 2:21 PM on February 29

that's a naan starter.

Goddamit what’s with all the sparkling food puns all of a sudden! Take my favorite you glorious monster!
posted by Ice Cream Socialist at 2:25 PM on February 29 [2 favorites]

"curry" refers to the flavor profile primarily consisting of turmeric, cumin, and shallots

Nope. Many a kootu, poriyal, or aviyal have none of the above, yet would still be called curries by Westerners, based solely on their Indian-ness.

In fact, there is no specific ingredient, nor combination of ingredients that make a curry. Nor is there any good reason to say that a goulash or Bolognese sauce is not a curry, outside of ethnic origin.

Curry is a colonial construct.
posted by splitpeasoup at 2:26 PM on February 29 [6 favorites]

“I DON’T KNOW ABOUT YOU, he said, BUT I COULD MURDER A CURRY.” ― Death, in Terry Pratchett's Mort.

(official t-shirt!)
posted by Penumbra at 5:52 PM on February 29 [2 favorites]

I am absolutely going to make faux "bunny chow" for lunch tomorrow. It's going to blow my wife's miiiiiind.
posted by outgrown_hobnail at 7:07 PM on February 29 [3 favorites]

As an Indian passport holder who grew up in the Malaysian peninsula, my 'curry' repertoire extends from Thai green curry from the north all the way down to Chinese vegetarian curry popular in Singapore.

Mind you, I only come in here to pontificate rebelliously in solidarity with naju... ;p

Like - colonialism IS powerful, and has literally set the terms! That's the problem!

Yes, it is. It still is. I've been diving deep into the colonial education system imposed deliberately as a strategy in India in the 1800s and their aims were exactly this (naju's words again):

it's because colonialism has a tendency to reprogram its subjects and modify/reduce their language.

Its called the colonial power matrix still in force today.

However, let's talk about rendang, and whether it can technically be called a curry or not?
posted by infini at 12:01 AM on March 1 [4 favorites]

I like Japanese curry fine, but the spice level--namely the cumin flavor--is pretty mild. To me it leans more toward a simple beef stew, and stew beef is a standard ingredient for Japanese curry. But for flavor (and that cumin that I just can't get enough of), nothing beats Indian curry. I know, I know that’s absurdly reductive as there are a bazillion Indian curries. I also like Thai but that feels like a completely different dish; lemongrass and coconut, sweet and sour.
posted by zardoz at 2:49 AM on March 1

Pretty sure rendang is, if not a variant then a riff off of, curry imo. But the thing worth noting is that the (pre-colonial) maritime southeast Asia right up to parts of Korea was very much part of the greater Indic world so it's as much as "curry" as anything else that was bequeathed the name. There's even Malay kari which shouldn't be confused with our (southern-style) Indian curry or even the Chinese version of curry in their curry mee, and that kari isn't even the same as gulai which is definitely distinct from rendang, lol. I'll confess I'm too Malaysian non-Indian to grasp the sourceland distinctions north of Tamil Nadu... But definitely Southeast Asians have localised this colonial construct such that to my mind the flavour profile is as described as polymodus. That said though... On the subject of spag Bolognese, add some curry powder after sauteeing the aromatics and once it's cooked according to how you'd use it for typical dishes*, proceed as usual, thank me later.

*The story I'm told is that Malaysian powders aren't packaged toasted/prepared, unlike Madras ones. I don't know if this is true? I'm only told this as an explanation because I was agog at the idea of coronation chicken and why would cold chicken salad be constructed with cold mayo and curry powder straight from the packet??? Anyway, that's the backstory for something invented to commemorate Liz 2's coronation. In any case, this does impact the cooking step - I know sourceland Indians who claim Malaysian Indian curries taste "raw".
posted by cendawanita at 4:45 AM on March 1 [4 favorites]

But the thing worth noting is that the (pre-colonial) maritime southeast Asia right up to parts of Korea was very much part of the greater Indic world

Because casual reminder, the Journey to the West's whole thing about going to India was for a reason.
posted by cendawanita at 4:47 AM on March 1 [1 favorite]

My mom made Golden curry when I was growing up, so that's what I make. After she passed away, my dad totally surprised me by making it in the slow cooker! So that's how I make it now.

In the past year and a half I've branched out in trying currywurst and bunny chow. They're terrific.

When Mr. Dragonplayer was a lad, he watched Sailor Moon, always wondering what curry was. Reader, I curried him, he likes it and wants more of it
posted by dragonplayer at 4:56 AM on March 1 [1 favorite]

Many a kootu, poriyal, or aviyal have none of the above, yet would still be called curries by Westerners, based solely on their Indian-ness

That is non-trivially because it's a matter of a colonial empire taking over an invading empire and subsuming their domininons. The reason most "Indian" places serve specifically North Indian style food is not entirely accidental.
posted by aramaic at 7:06 AM on March 1 [1 favorite]

I know what I’m eating tonight.
posted by kinnakeet at 8:56 AM on March 1

Living in Birmingham, I am a big fan of a balti. It is not authentically Indian (or Pakistani or Bangladeshi), it is native to here, and very delicious.
posted by plonkee at 11:02 AM on March 1 [1 favorite]

more like a big French sauce

Probably worth mentioning that there is Vadouvan (otherwise known as French Curry).
posted by Ashwagandha at 11:44 AM on March 1