whereas, the alt right prepper alone in his basement with tons of food
March 27, 2024 10:15 AM Subscribe
Zoe, The Leftist Prepper, on supporting one another after disaster. From the Struggle Care podcast, with an auto-generated transcript. It's this rugged individualism that I think combined with gun love, because they are in my comments every single day... 'Oh, I'm gonna come to the blue state when the apocalypse hits and just take all your stuff.' And it baffles me... like, don't you care about the old granny next door who may need help opening her cans? I just, I don't get it.
On having safely evacuated from New Orleans to Tennessee and what comes next:
On having safely evacuated from New Orleans to Tennessee and what comes next:
So the day after the hurricane [Ida], I'm on Facebook and I'm in a mutual aid group for New Orleans and I see so many people posting that they're out of batteries already. They're out of diapers, they're almost out of formula and all of the Walmarts all the stores in New Orleans are either closed or completely sold out... So I realized the Walmarts near me [in] Tennessee are fully staffed. So I posted and I said, I'm coming down tomorrow, let me know what people need.
Ah meant to include this quote too (small edits for clarity and in the quotes above):posted by spamandkimchi at 10:17 AM on March 27 [6 favorites]
I've clearly thought about this a lot - the book Moon Of The Crusted Snow, by Anishinaabe writer Waubgeshig Rice gave me a good deal to think about in this vein, as I've alluded to it twice. It's about the fallout of a massive global power grid failure and how it impacts an Anishinaabe reservation - no one on the rez really thinks anything of it since power fails on them all the time and they've come up with their own community social safety net, and it's not until one of the kids off at college comes home that they realize the shit's hit the fan. Then this alt-right prepper dude follows that kid's tracks and tries to take over.
But the Anishinaabe are a tight enough community and they know how to forage for food, and they know other survival skills this dude's prepper books never told him, so they just sort of....wait him out, and then when he ultimately fails they go back to what they were doing anyway (well, sort of - they abandon the rez and go back to the parts of Canada that were better suited for them to live on anyway).
Over in AskMe someone also was looking for a short story in a similar vein and it turned out to be The Year Without Sunshine by Naomi Kritzer. I read it based on that AskMe and it was so good I'm considering sharing it with my PostApocalyptic Fiction book club.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 10:43 AM on March 27 [57 favorites]
But the Anishinaabe are a tight enough community and they know how to forage for food, and they know other survival skills this dude's prepper books never told him, so they just sort of....wait him out, and then when he ultimately fails they go back to what they were doing anyway (well, sort of - they abandon the rez and go back to the parts of Canada that were better suited for them to live on anyway).
Over in AskMe someone also was looking for a short story in a similar vein and it turned out to be The Year Without Sunshine by Naomi Kritzer. I read it based on that AskMe and it was so good I'm considering sharing it with my PostApocalyptic Fiction book club.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 10:43 AM on March 27 [57 favorites]
There is never a bad time to revisit Dee Xtrovert's comment about living through the Siege of Sarajevo.
Some people (very few) were prepared for what they thought would be the "long haul" - this tended to be a couple of months. These people were widely seen as lunatics and dangerously pessimistic ones at that. [...]posted by The Pluto Gangsta at 10:52 AM on March 27 [70 favorites]
Those who'd prepared, well, the majority of them shared their food and whatever else they had as soon as someone else was clearly in need. I can't swear it, but I think they felt a little foolish to have been so self-obsessed, and giving away that stuff might have lessened that feeling. There were a few people who hoarded things until they ran out of stuff - eventually everybody ran out of anything worth hoarding - and they soon became wishful beggars like the rest of us.
As for that granny, it's pretty obvious they don't care about her. Prepping strikes me as preparing to be a selfish jerk in the face of extreme adversity (which will likely never come).
posted by JustSayNoDawg at 10:57 AM on March 27 [7 favorites]
posted by JustSayNoDawg at 10:57 AM on March 27 [7 favorites]
Am I going to have to be running for miles again? Because I guarantee it's not during the hurricane. Like I guarantee you it's not during the power outage.
So as a result of traveling the country for the presidential campaign happening at the time my wife wound up in NYC in the immediate aftermath of 2012's Hurricane Sandy. There were a lot of resources being sent to the area but distribution left a lot to be desired and my wife was on a mutual aid team.
There are a lot of tall buildings in New York and with the power out many residents couldn't get down the stairs in order to get the food, water, etc. that were being distributed. The mutual aid teams would find a building, take flashlights and walk up seven (or however many) flights of unlit stairs and go door to door on a floor checking to see which apartments had people who couldn't make it to the distribution center. Then they'd walk down those seven flights of stairs and head to the distribution center, get the items the residents needed, take them back to the building and walk back up those seven flights of stairs (this time carrying some fairly heavy supplies) and distribute them to the people who couldn't leave their apartments.
Then they did it again for the sixth floor. Then they did it again for the fifth floor. Then they did it again and again and again until all of the building was supplied.
Then they moved to the next building.
There's a lot of unnecessary ablism in the mainstream prepper movement but least some of the people involved in mutual aid are going to have to be in pretty good physically capable shape if it's going to be effective.
posted by Parasite Unseen at 11:06 AM on March 27 [61 favorites]
So as a result of traveling the country for the presidential campaign happening at the time my wife wound up in NYC in the immediate aftermath of 2012's Hurricane Sandy. There were a lot of resources being sent to the area but distribution left a lot to be desired and my wife was on a mutual aid team.
There are a lot of tall buildings in New York and with the power out many residents couldn't get down the stairs in order to get the food, water, etc. that were being distributed. The mutual aid teams would find a building, take flashlights and walk up seven (or however many) flights of unlit stairs and go door to door on a floor checking to see which apartments had people who couldn't make it to the distribution center. Then they'd walk down those seven flights of stairs and head to the distribution center, get the items the residents needed, take them back to the building and walk back up those seven flights of stairs (this time carrying some fairly heavy supplies) and distribute them to the people who couldn't leave their apartments.
Then they did it again for the sixth floor. Then they did it again for the fifth floor. Then they did it again and again and again until all of the building was supplied.
Then they moved to the next building.
There's a lot of unnecessary ablism in the mainstream prepper movement but least some of the people involved in mutual aid are going to have to be in pretty good physically capable shape if it's going to be effective.
posted by Parasite Unseen at 11:06 AM on March 27 [61 favorites]
I just want to tell you that people aren't going to "come to the blue states and take all our stuff". That is a misunderstanding of both the practical constraints of getting here/finding stuff/moving stuff and what they will encounter when they arrive. Just because people aren't always talking big about stealing from their neighbors at gunpoint doesn't mean that we're all helpless around here.
In terms of being in good shape - we can work together. I do mutual aid and have a physical disability; several of the people I work with have limits on what they can lift and how far/fast they can move. It is possible to divide up work to play to people's strengths.
For instance, if I had to get a lot of stuff up a tall building and had a crew on site with limited mobility, I'd pick out the stair climbers and have other people unload/organize at the bottom of the steps. People who could do limited stairs I would have bring things up a few flights to stage in order to give the stair-climbers a little help. People who could climb but could only carry light things would carry light loads. I'd plan how we were going to get stuff to the top of the building and have the strongest people do that, then have less mobile people do the second/third/fourth etc floors. I'd also see if there were anyone in the building who could help with staging - maybe someone couldn't do stairs but could help carry on their floor, or someone could do stairs but only light stuff, or someone could do two or three flights and could help bring stuff up part way.
In a really "no one can do a lot of stairs" scenario, I'd do a bucket brigade - stage the stuff on the ground, have climbers doing one or two flights then others doing one or two, etc.
Being physically strong is great, it's great when you can have just a few people do a big job of work, but I know from my personal experience that a lot of people working in stages or shifts can do a great deal even if many individuals have a lot of limits.
Another option: could there be a "floor captain" resident for each floor who would gather the lists for the delivery people? That would at least save time if you had a lot of ground to cover.
All this assumes, of course, that you're not just dealing with a medium-length one-off situation like Sandy, where of course you're going to work as fast as you can with as much capacity as you've got. But if you need to do things over and over and over in the same place, a group can learn to do a lot.
posted by Frowner at 11:22 AM on March 27 [48 favorites]
In terms of being in good shape - we can work together. I do mutual aid and have a physical disability; several of the people I work with have limits on what they can lift and how far/fast they can move. It is possible to divide up work to play to people's strengths.
For instance, if I had to get a lot of stuff up a tall building and had a crew on site with limited mobility, I'd pick out the stair climbers and have other people unload/organize at the bottom of the steps. People who could do limited stairs I would have bring things up a few flights to stage in order to give the stair-climbers a little help. People who could climb but could only carry light things would carry light loads. I'd plan how we were going to get stuff to the top of the building and have the strongest people do that, then have less mobile people do the second/third/fourth etc floors. I'd also see if there were anyone in the building who could help with staging - maybe someone couldn't do stairs but could help carry on their floor, or someone could do stairs but only light stuff, or someone could do two or three flights and could help bring stuff up part way.
In a really "no one can do a lot of stairs" scenario, I'd do a bucket brigade - stage the stuff on the ground, have climbers doing one or two flights then others doing one or two, etc.
Being physically strong is great, it's great when you can have just a few people do a big job of work, but I know from my personal experience that a lot of people working in stages or shifts can do a great deal even if many individuals have a lot of limits.
Another option: could there be a "floor captain" resident for each floor who would gather the lists for the delivery people? That would at least save time if you had a lot of ground to cover.
All this assumes, of course, that you're not just dealing with a medium-length one-off situation like Sandy, where of course you're going to work as fast as you can with as much capacity as you've got. But if you need to do things over and over and over in the same place, a group can learn to do a lot.
posted by Frowner at 11:22 AM on March 27 [48 favorites]
I don't really get the mindset of watching Fury Road and thinking "those Warboys have a sweet deal." I mean, that can't all imagine that they will be Immortan Joe, can they? And anyways, he's life also sucked; did you notice the state of his skin. Yeesh.
posted by GenjiandProust at 11:24 AM on March 27 [6 favorites]
posted by GenjiandProust at 11:24 AM on March 27 [6 favorites]
There's a lot of unnecessary ablism in the mainstream prepper movement but least some of the people involved in mutual aid are going to have to be in pretty good physically capable shape if it's going to be effective.
Right, there is no question that depending upon the type of disaster and where you are located, a disaster survival situation may benefit from being, fr ex., in good cardio health, able to climb, able to lift.
The unnecessary ableism comes through when people say, as the podcaster reports, that losing weight and getting as fit as humanly possible is the single most important thing she can do to prepare. Which is just obviously untrue, and not possible for many.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 11:25 AM on March 27 [21 favorites]
Right, there is no question that depending upon the type of disaster and where you are located, a disaster survival situation may benefit from being, fr ex., in good cardio health, able to climb, able to lift.
The unnecessary ableism comes through when people say, as the podcaster reports, that losing weight and getting as fit as humanly possible is the single most important thing she can do to prepare. Which is just obviously untrue, and not possible for many.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 11:25 AM on March 27 [21 favorites]
(Also Frowner I'm glad I'm not the only one who was reading the account of everyone individually going up and down 7 flights of stairs constantly and thinking, y'all didn't even THINK of a relay?)
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 11:26 AM on March 27 [16 favorites]
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 11:26 AM on March 27 [16 favorites]
I don't really get the mindset of watching Fury Road and thinking "those Warboys have a sweet deal." I mean, that can't all imagine that they will be Immortan Joe, can they?
Yup. For most of them this is all about living out a fantasy life. They are the heroes of their own stories.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 11:28 AM on March 27 [13 favorites]
Yup. For most of them this is all about living out a fantasy life. They are the heroes of their own stories.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 11:28 AM on March 27 [13 favorites]
Also, you get stronger as you do the work. Based on a couple of short shifts most weeks, my back and core have gotten slightly better; this has given me some confidence that if I had to do more, I would make more gains. We're not all infinitely physically malleable, of course - I will never fitness away my disability - but probably just doing mutual aid is good preparation for doing mutual aid. Strength isn't static.
posted by Frowner at 11:32 AM on March 27 [13 favorites]
posted by Frowner at 11:32 AM on March 27 [13 favorites]
the survivalist style of prepping is absolutely a power fantasy - "I'm Rambo/Thoreau and no one can touch me" sort of thing.
I want to shake them and say "do you think we got all of this" (waving wildly at civilization) "by going it on our own?"
posted by drewbage1847 at 11:40 AM on March 27 [9 favorites]
I want to shake them and say "do you think we got all of this" (waving wildly at civilization) "by going it on our own?"
posted by drewbage1847 at 11:40 AM on March 27 [9 favorites]
Dee Xtrovert's comment about living through the Siege of Sarajevo.
I post links to it elsewhere more often than any other MeFi comment, and so should we all.
posted by snuffleupagus at 11:41 AM on March 27 [12 favorites]
I post links to it elsewhere more often than any other MeFi comment, and so should we all.
posted by snuffleupagus at 11:41 AM on March 27 [12 favorites]
"Socialism never took root in America because the poor right-wing see themselves not as an exploited proletariat, but as temporarily embarrassed millionaires immortan joes" ??
posted by lalochezia at 11:44 AM on March 27 [24 favorites]
posted by lalochezia at 11:44 AM on March 27 [24 favorites]
I'm eagerly awaiting The Rapture of the Preppers, so the rest of us can get on with our lives.
posted by aeshnid at 11:44 AM on March 27 [20 favorites]
posted by aeshnid at 11:44 AM on March 27 [20 favorites]
> That is a misunderstanding of both the practical constraints of getting here/finding stuff/moving stuff and what they will encounter when they arrive. Just because people aren't always talking big about stealing from their neighbors at gunpoint doesn't mean that we're all helpless around here.
Well, it's the same people who think the Texas National Guard is going to just waltz in and "protect" the California border with Mexico because our police forces at every level are famously chill and they always defer power to other agencies.
You know, rather than what would actually happen, which is Governor Newsom and Mayor Bass would have a giant power struggle over if it's the CHP or LAPD who is going to blow the bridges over the Colorado River in Bythe and who is going to blockade the 15 right before Primm.
posted by Back At It Again At Krispy Kreme at 11:49 AM on March 27 [4 favorites]
Well, it's the same people who think the Texas National Guard is going to just waltz in and "protect" the California border with Mexico because our police forces at every level are famously chill and they always defer power to other agencies.
You know, rather than what would actually happen, which is Governor Newsom and Mayor Bass would have a giant power struggle over if it's the CHP or LAPD who is going to blow the bridges over the Colorado River in Bythe and who is going to blockade the 15 right before Primm.
posted by Back At It Again At Krispy Kreme at 11:49 AM on March 27 [4 favorites]
CalTrans is probably a larger mechanized force than most state's national guards.
posted by snuffleupagus at 12:11 PM on March 27 [12 favorites]
posted by snuffleupagus at 12:11 PM on March 27 [12 favorites]
You know, rather than what would actually happen, which is Governor Newsom and Mayor Bass would have a giant power struggle over if it's the CHP or LAPD who is going to blow the bridges over the Colorado River in Bythe and who is going to blockade the 15 right before Primm.
Why would they do that? There's a giant inhospitable desert between Nevada/Arizona and the CA coast. Also how do cars work so well in disaster scenarios? They require about $9000 a year in costs and an army of people to fuel and maintain them.
posted by The_Vegetables at 12:22 PM on March 27 [2 favorites]
Why would they do that? There's a giant inhospitable desert between Nevada/Arizona and the CA coast. Also how do cars work so well in disaster scenarios? They require about $9000 a year in costs and an army of people to fuel and maintain them.
posted by The_Vegetables at 12:22 PM on March 27 [2 favorites]
In the USA think it is prudent to be able to hunker down in the short-term in lots of realistic scenarios. Extreme weather events, a run on groceries like we saw at the beginning of the Covid lockdown, etc. most if not all of these are going to resolve one way or another in 10-15 days max- either the power will come back on, or you’re going to pack your shit and head for the FEMA trailer park.
I’m no prepper, but we easily if not a bit uncomfortably survived 2 week-long power outages and the Covid run on groceries because I keep a prudent backlog of food, and being a bit outdoorsy, have an ice chest, camp stove, flashlights, batteries etc. on the shelf in the garage. And a tank full of gas. If a big storm is coming, fill your car up a few days before it occurs to most everyone else.
If shit goes permanently sideways, I would rather be amongst the first to go in a massive die-off than among the last, honestly.
posted by Devils Rancher at 12:36 PM on March 27 [18 favorites]
I’m no prepper, but we easily if not a bit uncomfortably survived 2 week-long power outages and the Covid run on groceries because I keep a prudent backlog of food, and being a bit outdoorsy, have an ice chest, camp stove, flashlights, batteries etc. on the shelf in the garage. And a tank full of gas. If a big storm is coming, fill your car up a few days before it occurs to most everyone else.
If shit goes permanently sideways, I would rather be amongst the first to go in a massive die-off than among the last, honestly.
posted by Devils Rancher at 12:36 PM on March 27 [18 favorites]
I will never run out of food because I've bought so many sardines in the vain hope that one day I'll eat them. Nobody's going to steal my sardines and I am so unexcited about eating them I'd probably forget about them and eat the cat's food first, or the cat. Or dirt. I wish I liked sardines, I really do. They're so good for you.
posted by Don Pepino at 12:48 PM on March 27 [59 favorites]
posted by Don Pepino at 12:48 PM on March 27 [59 favorites]
20+ years ago, we had a huge rainstorm that washed out sewer and water mains that were adjacent. Police cruised the streets telling people not to use tap water. Everything shut down. I went to the store because I needed to anyway. A woman was coming out with a shopping cart overloaded with bottled water, easily enough for a bunch of people for a week. okay. As I shopped the manager came on the intercom saying they'd gotten a truckload of water from the warehouse and customers should stop and get some, courtesy of Hannaford. I laughed about that woman who missed the free water and the great feeling of camaraderie. I had enough water pressure to flush, water was back in a day, with plenty of chlorine. I will be a Hannaford shopper for life.
I'm a low key prepper. It's easy to store some extra water, long-storage food, canned goods, camping gear, a good 1st aid kit, some cans of sterno. I've been through hurricanes where I lost power for a week, the Bigass Ice Storm of 1998. the Blizzard of 1978. Prepping a little meant that when they said geezers should hunker down for a few weeks, cough, in 2020, I had plenty of food. I read Dee Xtrovert's comment and have never forgotten it. The horror of Hurrican Katrina was on MeFi and on tv.
Just lost power for @ 40 hours in a nasty ice storm. My neighbor checked on me, we all offered resources on our neighborhood facebook group. I feel so much safer and happier because of that. Much more so than having a gun. Zuck and others build bunkers. I think I'll do better and have more fun in my neighborhood.
Be in shape because you may have to walk places carrying your baby and your groceries. Take 1st Aid. Know what disasters are likely where you live and be prepared; 1st responders will be busy.
posted by theora55 at 12:53 PM on March 27 [14 favorites]
I'm a low key prepper. It's easy to store some extra water, long-storage food, canned goods, camping gear, a good 1st aid kit, some cans of sterno. I've been through hurricanes where I lost power for a week, the Bigass Ice Storm of 1998. the Blizzard of 1978. Prepping a little meant that when they said geezers should hunker down for a few weeks, cough, in 2020, I had plenty of food. I read Dee Xtrovert's comment and have never forgotten it. The horror of Hurrican Katrina was on MeFi and on tv.
Just lost power for @ 40 hours in a nasty ice storm. My neighbor checked on me, we all offered resources on our neighborhood facebook group. I feel so much safer and happier because of that. Much more so than having a gun. Zuck and others build bunkers. I think I'll do better and have more fun in my neighborhood.
Be in shape because you may have to walk places carrying your baby and your groceries. Take 1st Aid. Know what disasters are likely where you live and be prepared; 1st responders will be busy.
posted by theora55 at 12:53 PM on March 27 [14 favorites]
My suspicion is that there are right wing preppers who care about their communities but aren't vocal cranks online, but usually tied to some kind of religious institution like Mormonism or maybe boy scouts.
I will never run out of food because I've bought so many sardines in the vain hope that one day I'll eat them.
I too have a bunch of sardines, but I like them enough to just barely stay ahead of the expiration dates. I remember in the early-covid grocery panic how the only remaining protein on the store shelves was gefilte fish. Even spam was scarce.
posted by BrotherCaine at 1:09 PM on March 27 [3 favorites]
I will never run out of food because I've bought so many sardines in the vain hope that one day I'll eat them.
I too have a bunch of sardines, but I like them enough to just barely stay ahead of the expiration dates. I remember in the early-covid grocery panic how the only remaining protein on the store shelves was gefilte fish. Even spam was scarce.
posted by BrotherCaine at 1:09 PM on March 27 [3 favorites]
For protein sources, don't forget about peanut butter… shelf stable (potentially even after opening), can be eaten with minimal utensils, tastes quite good (to most people)…
posted by demi-octopus at 1:20 PM on March 27 [13 favorites]
posted by demi-octopus at 1:20 PM on March 27 [13 favorites]
I think most right wing preppers ARE going to be out helping people and it's absurd to think they won't help granny. Such us vs them thinking to say that they won't help.
The oft quoted Dee Xtovert:
"Those who'd prepared, well, the majority of them shared their food and whatever else they had as soon as someone else was clearly in need."
posted by halehale at 1:26 PM on March 27 [7 favorites]
The oft quoted Dee Xtovert:
"Those who'd prepared, well, the majority of them shared their food and whatever else they had as soon as someone else was clearly in need."
posted by halehale at 1:26 PM on March 27 [7 favorites]
I walked most of the way across Santa Cruz in the evening after the Loma Prieta quake. There was no city electricity or gas but roughly once a block there was a group of neighbors holding a barbecue of what they expected to go bad in their respective freezers. Everyone had a radio on and we were hearing what happened in San Francisco and Oakland. We were all a bit on edge waiting for aftershocks, but people were fine in general.
Undoubtedly there were some hardcore preppers who had retreated to their bunkers, which was probably a good place for them.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 1:28 PM on March 27 [19 favorites]
Undoubtedly there were some hardcore preppers who had retreated to their bunkers, which was probably a good place for them.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 1:28 PM on March 27 [19 favorites]
I think most right wing preppers ARE going to be out helping people and it's absurd to think they won't help granny. Such us vs them thinking to say that they won't help.
I don't know how to break this to you, but the real right-wing prepper is desperate to reach an "us vs. them" scenario and to get to enforce that boundary, ideally shooting a few brown-skinned people along the way to make their point. It's their fantasy to get to deny food or make others beg for it.
posted by praemunire at 1:35 PM on March 27 [24 favorites]
I don't know how to break this to you, but the real right-wing prepper is desperate to reach an "us vs. them" scenario and to get to enforce that boundary, ideally shooting a few brown-skinned people along the way to make their point. It's their fantasy to get to deny food or make others beg for it.
posted by praemunire at 1:35 PM on March 27 [24 favorites]
Year Without Sunshine annoyed me, because it's written as if the absolute most important thing that would happen after complete societal collapse would be the people that you used to argue with on the Internet coming groveling to your homestead because you've proven your earthly perfection. Which is half the appeal of prepper mindset left and right, I guess.
posted by kingdead at 1:40 PM on March 27 [7 favorites]
posted by kingdead at 1:40 PM on March 27 [7 favorites]
I live in Boston, but spent a significant amount of 2012 and 2013 driving down to New York to volunteer on mutual aid in the aftermath of Sandy. The group that I worked with was active in Mississippi in the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina; and in general their model optimizes for supporting visiting volunteers who want to provide labor and help to communities impacted by disasters. We'd go in and help clean up people's flooded homes, remediate for mold, tear down flood damaged structures and rebuild and reinstall. In between those kinds of jobs, I'd take part in needs surveys (walking door to door to find out what folks needed), warehouse sorting, and kitchen duty. One of my favorite memories was cooking turkeys on a ramshackle collection of donated Weber grills for a Thanksgiving at a church in Red Hook.
All kinds of folks came from all kinds of places to help there. I did not know who they voted for in an election. I did not know if they thought that I, a brown skinned guy with a weird name, was "one of them or one of us." Never really came up. But it was a combination of off-duty nurses, retired firefighters, college kids on break, church folk, white collar office workers, and tradespeople in between jobs. All of them living in places that weren't touched by disaster but saw a neighbor in need and decided to go and help. They're, like, the first group of people that I would seek out if a zombie apocalypse happened.
Our org wasn't alone. Of course, there was Occupy Sandy, but also a lot of church groups, Salvation Army, and other disaster volunteer groups. I remember spending one evening sharing dinner with folks from Team Rubicon, who are basically made up of veterans who still want to serve, and a bunch of them would talk about how their happiest memories of service was being part of Navy or Army efforts in the Thailand tsunami or the Haiti earthquake, and those folks are probably what I think about as far as a mentally healthier version of this personality: prepared for disaster and violence if needed, but also primarily motivated with helping other people.
posted by bl1nk at 2:04 PM on March 27 [20 favorites]
All kinds of folks came from all kinds of places to help there. I did not know who they voted for in an election. I did not know if they thought that I, a brown skinned guy with a weird name, was "one of them or one of us." Never really came up. But it was a combination of off-duty nurses, retired firefighters, college kids on break, church folk, white collar office workers, and tradespeople in between jobs. All of them living in places that weren't touched by disaster but saw a neighbor in need and decided to go and help. They're, like, the first group of people that I would seek out if a zombie apocalypse happened.
Our org wasn't alone. Of course, there was Occupy Sandy, but also a lot of church groups, Salvation Army, and other disaster volunteer groups. I remember spending one evening sharing dinner with folks from Team Rubicon, who are basically made up of veterans who still want to serve, and a bunch of them would talk about how their happiest memories of service was being part of Navy or Army efforts in the Thailand tsunami or the Haiti earthquake, and those folks are probably what I think about as far as a mentally healthier version of this personality: prepared for disaster and violence if needed, but also primarily motivated with helping other people.
posted by bl1nk at 2:04 PM on March 27 [20 favorites]
I would happily pay for a service that would deliver a pallet of shelf-stable food once a year, and pick up last year's pallet and donate it to folks in need. Not sure why that's not a thing yet.
posted by novalis_dt at 2:12 PM on March 27 [23 favorites]
posted by novalis_dt at 2:12 PM on March 27 [23 favorites]
I will never run out of food because I have two cans of kipper snacks and I will eat paint chips and telephone wire and other previously inedible things before I open those those.
posted by JustSayNoDawg at 2:30 PM on March 27 [18 favorites]
posted by JustSayNoDawg at 2:30 PM on March 27 [18 favorites]
From later in the interview:
I have chickens so I give my neighbor's eggs to stay with good rapport and apologize for the sounds of chickens all the time. And just keeping up that rapport... so I know the first thing if we get a hurricane I'm texting Judy next door... I'm also talking to the elderly man next door to make sure he doesn't need me to go to Walmart for him. You know stuff like that.posted by spamandkimchi at 3:10 PM on March 27
groveling to your homestead because you've proven your earthly perfection. Which is half the appeal of prepper mindset left and right, I guess.
yrrr basic grasshopper and the ants scenario. The fable has various outcomes, the one I heard as a kid was that the grasshoppers (who partied and danced and feasted all summer) ended up starving to death once winter came, whereas the ants (who'd worked hard) survived.
The more likely scenario to my mind being that if the ants let the grasshoppers starve, they will indeed survive the winter at first. But eventually, after long bleak months of being all jammed in together with no singers, no dancers, no art, not even any decent chefs -- they all turn on each other in distrust, enmity, paranoia. Eventually, the food stores are spoiled because they're too busy plotting against each other to take care of them. So in the end, it all goes to cannibalism.
posted by philip-random at 3:12 PM on March 27 [6 favorites]
yrrr basic grasshopper and the ants scenario. The fable has various outcomes, the one I heard as a kid was that the grasshoppers (who partied and danced and feasted all summer) ended up starving to death once winter came, whereas the ants (who'd worked hard) survived.
The more likely scenario to my mind being that if the ants let the grasshoppers starve, they will indeed survive the winter at first. But eventually, after long bleak months of being all jammed in together with no singers, no dancers, no art, not even any decent chefs -- they all turn on each other in distrust, enmity, paranoia. Eventually, the food stores are spoiled because they're too busy plotting against each other to take care of them. So in the end, it all goes to cannibalism.
posted by philip-random at 3:12 PM on March 27 [6 favorites]
A recent SMBC spoke to the primitive barbarian model for humans.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 3:23 PM on March 27 [1 favorite]
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 3:23 PM on March 27 [1 favorite]
Like many others in this thread, Dee Xtrovert’s comment was the first thing that popped to mind for me when I read the post. No speculation for them, but lived experience. I miss their thoughtful presence here.
posted by hurdy gurdy girl at 3:35 PM on March 27 [11 favorites]
posted by hurdy gurdy girl at 3:35 PM on March 27 [11 favorites]
So in the end, it all goes to cannibalism.
I walk just a stupid amount and when people ask me why I like to say it is because people are persistence hunters so I need to keep my cardio up if I'm going to be a persistence hunter hunter when everything falls apart.
Pretty much anyone who can't casually walk a marathon should probably shoot me if they see me coming, because I am a very hungry boy.
posted by Parasite Unseen at 3:46 PM on March 27 [9 favorites]
I walk just a stupid amount and when people ask me why I like to say it is because people are persistence hunters so I need to keep my cardio up if I'm going to be a persistence hunter hunter when everything falls apart.
Pretty much anyone who can't casually walk a marathon should probably shoot me if they see me coming, because I am a very hungry boy.
posted by Parasite Unseen at 3:46 PM on March 27 [9 favorites]
My prepping strategy is to be on good terms with my neighbors and live within walking distance of my parents, brother, brother's ex-wife, in-laws and brother in-law.
Seems to be working so far.
posted by signal at 4:42 PM on March 27 [6 favorites]
Seems to be working so far.
posted by signal at 4:42 PM on March 27 [6 favorites]
the survivalist style of prepping is absolutely a power fantasy - "I'm Rambo/the survivalist style of prepping is absolutely a power fantasy - "I'm Rambo/Thoreau and no one can touch me" sort of thing. and no one can touch me" sort of thing.
I guess that tracks given Thoreau had his mom doing his laundry all the time.
posted by Dr. Twist at 5:03 PM on March 27 [17 favorites]
I guess that tracks given Thoreau had his mom doing his laundry all the time.
posted by Dr. Twist at 5:03 PM on March 27 [17 favorites]
One of the things which I found truly telling was how long preppers tended to last after March 2020.
"Society shuts down because of a pandemic" is supposed to be one of the scenarios you prep for. And no preppers were ready for it.
Or rather, no preppers who thought prepping involved stockpiling guns did any better than their neighbors. There were some leftist, or even, y'know, normal people who had as part of their prep kit, "crafts and stuff for the kids that they can entertain themselves for weeks if they can't go to school." Okay, "entertainment for the kids" might include, "so, guess what? We still have our math textbooks from when we were your age so you are still doing homework" and "you are now helping us reorganize all the closets", but still... something to do is better than nothing to do.
I totally get people who didn't anticipate that one pre-2020. But if "stuff to keep me and my family from getting incredibly bored when everything collapses" isn't part of your prep kit now, you missed something.
2020 was the tutorial level. Anyone who didn't breeze through it - and that is "everyone", except that statistically insignificant number of people I was just mentioning - needs to spend some time thinking about how they will deal with the next one, when it will be worse.
posted by Xiphias Gladius at 5:04 PM on March 27 [13 favorites]
"Society shuts down because of a pandemic" is supposed to be one of the scenarios you prep for. And no preppers were ready for it.
Or rather, no preppers who thought prepping involved stockpiling guns did any better than their neighbors. There were some leftist, or even, y'know, normal people who had as part of their prep kit, "crafts and stuff for the kids that they can entertain themselves for weeks if they can't go to school." Okay, "entertainment for the kids" might include, "so, guess what? We still have our math textbooks from when we were your age so you are still doing homework" and "you are now helping us reorganize all the closets", but still... something to do is better than nothing to do.
I totally get people who didn't anticipate that one pre-2020. But if "stuff to keep me and my family from getting incredibly bored when everything collapses" isn't part of your prep kit now, you missed something.
2020 was the tutorial level. Anyone who didn't breeze through it - and that is "everyone", except that statistically insignificant number of people I was just mentioning - needs to spend some time thinking about how they will deal with the next one, when it will be worse.
posted by Xiphias Gladius at 5:04 PM on March 27 [13 favorites]
I will never run out of food because I've bought so many sardines in the vain hope that one day I'll eat them. Nobody's going to steal my sardines and I am so unexcited about eating them I'd probably forget about them and eat the cat's food first, or the cat.
I feel like if you have both too many sardines and a cat, there should be an easy process by which to combine them and end up with just a happy cat.
posted by nickmark at 5:48 PM on March 27 [13 favorites]
I feel like if you have both too many sardines and a cat, there should be an easy process by which to combine them and end up with just a happy cat.
posted by nickmark at 5:48 PM on March 27 [13 favorites]
And then eat it.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 5:58 PM on March 27 [7 favorites]
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 5:58 PM on March 27 [7 favorites]
MetaFilter: So in the end, it all goes to cannibalism.
posted by GenjiandProust at 6:05 PM on March 27 [8 favorites]
posted by GenjiandProust at 6:05 PM on March 27 [8 favorites]
Oh, yeah, there was somebody was in my comments literally last week telling me like, 'well, the best thing you need to do is to get in really good shape.' And I'm like, what scenario?
I don't know if that's the best thing, but it could be a very useful thing. After an earthquake I found myself helping to wedge in very heavy boards to keep houses from sliding off their foundations. And if you're currently deskbound and then suddenly going to be on your feet all day moving sandbags or delivering food there's something to be said for physical fitness.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 6:07 PM on March 27 [1 favorite]
I don't know if that's the best thing, but it could be a very useful thing. After an earthquake I found myself helping to wedge in very heavy boards to keep houses from sliding off their foundations. And if you're currently deskbound and then suddenly going to be on your feet all day moving sandbags or delivering food there's something to be said for physical fitness.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 6:07 PM on March 27 [1 favorite]
In the case of the podcaster though, I think it's more that women basically never encounter a situation in which we are NOT told that "get in really good shape" is our prime directive. Seriously, it can't be the first and best answer for EVERYTHING, there are other important things.
But I do note that both people in this podcast are speaking to a very specific Southern US milieu and type of disaster, and acknowledge as much. Not so many skyscrapers in New Orleans.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 6:25 PM on March 27 [10 favorites]
But I do note that both people in this podcast are speaking to a very specific Southern US milieu and type of disaster, and acknowledge as much. Not so many skyscrapers in New Orleans.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 6:25 PM on March 27 [10 favorites]
Not so many skyscrapers in New Orleans.
Hey, even just walking up and down 5 or 6 flights of stairs can be hard on the out-of-shape too. (Doing that during a plain old vacation wiped me out once.)
But yes, it's accurate that "get in the best possible shape" is not the only thing one might to do to prepare themselves for apocalypses. Food and clothing and shelter are big issues - and I've noticed that things I know about those fields are things that make people around me joke that "I want to hang out with you when the zombies attack". Like - I know how to knit, I know how to can things, and I know how to cook. I also am learning more about how to garden, and I dip my toe into learning about foraging every now and then.
I've also put some weirdly specific thought into where to procure foodstuffs, or basic ingredients, after any kind of disaster. Everyone's going to be heading to raid supermarkets - but what about all the different food factories out there? They're going to have raw ingredients in huge quantities. So while everyone else is heading to the abandoned Walmarts for the bread, I'm going to be checking out the pita factory 30 minutes' walk from here and hitting it up for flour and other ingredients and making my own. And the walking there and back will get me into shape over time, as a bonus.
And I'll be able to bake more than one loaf of whatever and can use that for barter, maybe. If the shut-in neighbor I've learned needs food can sew, maybe she can fix my torn shirt if I bake her bread, and then we'll both be set.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 4:14 AM on March 28 [1 favorite]
Hey, even just walking up and down 5 or 6 flights of stairs can be hard on the out-of-shape too. (Doing that during a plain old vacation wiped me out once.)
But yes, it's accurate that "get in the best possible shape" is not the only thing one might to do to prepare themselves for apocalypses. Food and clothing and shelter are big issues - and I've noticed that things I know about those fields are things that make people around me joke that "I want to hang out with you when the zombies attack". Like - I know how to knit, I know how to can things, and I know how to cook. I also am learning more about how to garden, and I dip my toe into learning about foraging every now and then.
I've also put some weirdly specific thought into where to procure foodstuffs, or basic ingredients, after any kind of disaster. Everyone's going to be heading to raid supermarkets - but what about all the different food factories out there? They're going to have raw ingredients in huge quantities. So while everyone else is heading to the abandoned Walmarts for the bread, I'm going to be checking out the pita factory 30 minutes' walk from here and hitting it up for flour and other ingredients and making my own. And the walking there and back will get me into shape over time, as a bonus.
And I'll be able to bake more than one loaf of whatever and can use that for barter, maybe. If the shut-in neighbor I've learned needs food can sew, maybe she can fix my torn shirt if I bake her bread, and then we'll both be set.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 4:14 AM on March 28 [1 favorite]
I AM COMING FOR YOUR SARDINES DON'T TRY AND STOP ME.
posted by adept256 at 4:19 AM on March 28 [3 favorites]
posted by adept256 at 4:19 AM on March 28 [3 favorites]
Rebecca Solnit's A Paradise Built in Hell is a good examination of how people come together for mutual support in the aftermath of disaster, and how common it seems that "authorities" can come along and fuck it all up. Reading it pushed me a fair bit down the path to becoming an anarchist.
I don't know how to break this to you, but the real right-wing prepper is desperate to reach an "us vs. them" scenario and to get to enforce that boundary, ideally shooting a few brown-skinned people along the way to make their point. It's their fantasy to get to deny food or make others beg for it.
This is very well illustrated in the reaction of some neighborhoods after Katrina which she covers in the book.
posted by calamari kid at 6:45 AM on March 28 [5 favorites]
I don't know how to break this to you, but the real right-wing prepper is desperate to reach an "us vs. them" scenario and to get to enforce that boundary, ideally shooting a few brown-skinned people along the way to make their point. It's their fantasy to get to deny food or make others beg for it.
This is very well illustrated in the reaction of some neighborhoods after Katrina which she covers in the book.
posted by calamari kid at 6:45 AM on March 28 [5 favorites]
I'd back relationship building and doing volunteer work against "getting in shape" any day of the week, for these reasons:
1. What kind of apocalypse are we talking here? Total permanent collapse of the state? War? Ice storm? Flooding? Extended power outage? Crop failure? Are other parts of the country going to be able or willing to scramble aid? If it's literally just you and your neighbors and nothing ever again, you are, frankly, fucked. If it's not, staying alive and connected until you can access more resources is what's important.
2. It puts the responsibility on the individual and cues us to believe that injury or illness during a crisis is a sign of weakness or moral failure. We saw how this played out in New Orleans. It also suggests that people who are strong should be in charge, because strength is most important. I think we've seen how this plays out about ten billion times over the years.
3. Most people are not going to be able to "get in shape" in some kind of apocalypse-defying way, because most people are going to be little kids, mothers, caregivers, disabled people, the elderly, etc who either don't have the time to themselves, are too little or just physically can't. Like, I cannot walk ten miles (without extended, extended rests every mile, and I'd be a pain-filled wreck afterwards.) Ten years ago, I could walk ten miles. Now I am disabled and I can't. No amount of "getting in shape" is going to make me able to do, eg, a walking evaculation at speed.
4. We are just so, so much stronger together. I did a mutual aid shift last night which did in fact involve lifting and carrying, and our group did a huge amount of work. I lifted and carried where I could, rolled carts where I couldn't lift, etc. Any kind of complex project can be divided up such that people can make real, significant contributions according to their strength.
I want to stress this. Let's say we'd had a volunteer who couldn't lift or carry at all - well, they would have spent the time doing the stationary task that we do on an assembly line model as a group, and the rest of us would have spent all our time on other work. If we had someone who could only do light lifting, we'd have had them doing the light lifting part.
Situations where you truly truly need to be physically strong without significant lacks or frailties are rare and you're either going to be able to scramble help from elsewhere or else you are pretty fucked.
I'm not saying "don't exercise" or "if you want to get stronger, don't get stronger" - I myself bike a lot and do PT/strength-building to deal with my disability.
But really "being very strong" is just like "having a lot of stuff", in that it is not actually a realistic solution to a long-term crisis.
posted by Frowner at 6:48 AM on March 28 [9 favorites]
1. What kind of apocalypse are we talking here? Total permanent collapse of the state? War? Ice storm? Flooding? Extended power outage? Crop failure? Are other parts of the country going to be able or willing to scramble aid? If it's literally just you and your neighbors and nothing ever again, you are, frankly, fucked. If it's not, staying alive and connected until you can access more resources is what's important.
2. It puts the responsibility on the individual and cues us to believe that injury or illness during a crisis is a sign of weakness or moral failure. We saw how this played out in New Orleans. It also suggests that people who are strong should be in charge, because strength is most important. I think we've seen how this plays out about ten billion times over the years.
3. Most people are not going to be able to "get in shape" in some kind of apocalypse-defying way, because most people are going to be little kids, mothers, caregivers, disabled people, the elderly, etc who either don't have the time to themselves, are too little or just physically can't. Like, I cannot walk ten miles (without extended, extended rests every mile, and I'd be a pain-filled wreck afterwards.) Ten years ago, I could walk ten miles. Now I am disabled and I can't. No amount of "getting in shape" is going to make me able to do, eg, a walking evaculation at speed.
4. We are just so, so much stronger together. I did a mutual aid shift last night which did in fact involve lifting and carrying, and our group did a huge amount of work. I lifted and carried where I could, rolled carts where I couldn't lift, etc. Any kind of complex project can be divided up such that people can make real, significant contributions according to their strength.
I want to stress this. Let's say we'd had a volunteer who couldn't lift or carry at all - well, they would have spent the time doing the stationary task that we do on an assembly line model as a group, and the rest of us would have spent all our time on other work. If we had someone who could only do light lifting, we'd have had them doing the light lifting part.
Situations where you truly truly need to be physically strong without significant lacks or frailties are rare and you're either going to be able to scramble help from elsewhere or else you are pretty fucked.
I'm not saying "don't exercise" or "if you want to get stronger, don't get stronger" - I myself bike a lot and do PT/strength-building to deal with my disability.
But really "being very strong" is just like "having a lot of stuff", in that it is not actually a realistic solution to a long-term crisis.
posted by Frowner at 6:48 AM on March 28 [9 favorites]
I do think being physically fit sound useful of course, but afaik all the serious collapse bloggers, like Nate Hagens, suggest being close friends with your neighbors, or even establishing some more communal situation.
"We better get together or we'll end up on the roof with a shotgun" (via)
posted by jeffburdges at 7:09 AM on March 28 [1 favorite]
"We better get together or we'll end up on the roof with a shotgun" (via)
posted by jeffburdges at 7:09 AM on March 28 [1 favorite]
Ain't collapse yet, since they could spend huge sums trucking in water, but Mexico city has a serious water problem.
I'd expect most collapses come on slowly like that, not like a hurricate or flood.
posted by jeffburdges at 7:10 AM on March 28
I'd expect most collapses come on slowly like that, not like a hurricate or flood.
posted by jeffburdges at 7:10 AM on March 28
Oh, also:
I live in Boston, but spent a significant amount of 2012 and 2013 driving down to New York to volunteer on mutual aid in the aftermath of Sandy. The group that I worked with was active in Mississippi in the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina; and in general their model optimizes for supporting visiting volunteers who want to provide labor and help to communities impacted by disasters. [...] All kinds of folks came from all kinds of places to help there. I did not know who they voted for in an election. I did not know if they thought that I, a brown skinned guy with a weird name, was "one of them or one of us." Never really came up. But it was a combination of off-duty nurses, retired firefighters, college kids on break, church folk, white collar office workers, and tradespeople in between jobs. All of them living in places that weren't touched by disaster but saw a neighbor in need and decided to go and help.
I have a feeling that the kind of alt-right preppers who would target outsiders as dangerous types would not be joining in with mutual aid movements in other areas anyway, so while you may have met people from many walks of life, the alt-right preppers were likely not among them.
....To be frank, I'm not even sure that alt-right preppers would participate in aid within their own communities either. Even here in NYC during Sandy there were some jerkoffs whose attitude was all "sucks to be you" when they saw others' damage - my hunch is that that's the attitude they'd have in their own communities as well, to shrug and then pat themselves on the back for being more "well prepared" or whatever.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 7:21 AM on March 28 [2 favorites]
I live in Boston, but spent a significant amount of 2012 and 2013 driving down to New York to volunteer on mutual aid in the aftermath of Sandy. The group that I worked with was active in Mississippi in the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina; and in general their model optimizes for supporting visiting volunteers who want to provide labor and help to communities impacted by disasters. [...] All kinds of folks came from all kinds of places to help there. I did not know who they voted for in an election. I did not know if they thought that I, a brown skinned guy with a weird name, was "one of them or one of us." Never really came up. But it was a combination of off-duty nurses, retired firefighters, college kids on break, church folk, white collar office workers, and tradespeople in between jobs. All of them living in places that weren't touched by disaster but saw a neighbor in need and decided to go and help.
I have a feeling that the kind of alt-right preppers who would target outsiders as dangerous types would not be joining in with mutual aid movements in other areas anyway, so while you may have met people from many walks of life, the alt-right preppers were likely not among them.
....To be frank, I'm not even sure that alt-right preppers would participate in aid within their own communities either. Even here in NYC during Sandy there were some jerkoffs whose attitude was all "sucks to be you" when they saw others' damage - my hunch is that that's the attitude they'd have in their own communities as well, to shrug and then pat themselves on the back for being more "well prepared" or whatever.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 7:21 AM on March 28 [2 favorites]
I think being as healthy and strong as you can be will probably be useful in such scenarios; it's just not the most important thing. Given the possible range of scenarios, I'm not sure there is a the most important thing.
posted by praemunire at 7:41 AM on March 28
posted by praemunire at 7:41 AM on March 28
Given the possible range of scenarios, I'm not sure there is a the most important thing.
For one thing if you are well prepared to shelter in place (and the disaster is one where "shelter in place" is a thing -- as they note, they're mostly talking about hurricanes, ice storms, power outages, severe heat waves) and equipped to/in community to help your immediate neighbors, well then nobody has to walk 26.2 miles for supplies, now do they?
I don't know how to break this to you, but the real right-wing prepper is desperate to reach an "us vs. them" scenario and to get to enforce that boundary, ideally shooting a few brown-skinned people along the way to make their point. It's their fantasy to get to deny food or make others beg for it.
So, I'm sure this is how some people would/will/do play it out. However, it's also, as you say, a fantasy. Which means that when push comes to shove some of these people will actually just be normal, and go help granny with her meds, because Mad Max is fun to cosplay in your garage but it's not actually very fun to watch Mrs. Stevenson die on her porch.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 8:01 AM on March 28 [2 favorites]
For one thing if you are well prepared to shelter in place (and the disaster is one where "shelter in place" is a thing -- as they note, they're mostly talking about hurricanes, ice storms, power outages, severe heat waves) and equipped to/in community to help your immediate neighbors, well then nobody has to walk 26.2 miles for supplies, now do they?
I don't know how to break this to you, but the real right-wing prepper is desperate to reach an "us vs. them" scenario and to get to enforce that boundary, ideally shooting a few brown-skinned people along the way to make their point. It's their fantasy to get to deny food or make others beg for it.
So, I'm sure this is how some people would/will/do play it out. However, it's also, as you say, a fantasy. Which means that when push comes to shove some of these people will actually just be normal, and go help granny with her meds, because Mad Max is fun to cosplay in your garage but it's not actually very fun to watch Mrs. Stevenson die on her porch.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 8:01 AM on March 28 [2 favorites]
well then nobody has to walk 26.2 miles for supplies, now do they?
I live in NYC, so it's unlikely I'd have an immediate need to walk 26.2 miles for anything, but I also live in a high-rise, so if I want to help the nice older lady on the 15th floor who looks after my dog when I'm away I probably do need to be decent on the stairs and carrying things.
Also said dog can be reliably predicted to be in a blind panic, so if we have to go even short distances I'll need to be able to carry him.
posted by praemunire at 8:06 AM on March 28 [1 favorite]
I live in NYC, so it's unlikely I'd have an immediate need to walk 26.2 miles for anything, but I also live in a high-rise, so if I want to help the nice older lady on the 15th floor who looks after my dog when I'm away I probably do need to be decent on the stairs and carrying things.
Also said dog can be reliably predicted to be in a blind panic, so if we have to go even short distances I'll need to be able to carry him.
posted by praemunire at 8:06 AM on March 28 [1 favorite]
So much depends on how things go bad.
Again, drawing on active mutual aid experience, I think that the hardcore prepper situation isn't super important (unless you live in a place where they are the majority and you'll have to deal with them.)
One of the most oddball things about doing the stuff I've been doing is working with people who have very, very different views on a whole range of things, and occasionally running into a person who has views I find pretty unpleasant, whether that's on the distro side or on the person-getting-stuff side. There are absolutely lines we won't cross, but sometimes even a real asshole needs a tent, you know?
My feeling tends to be that there's a big chunk of people who have weakly held bad views and their immediate response when out in the world is to just sort of put them to one side. Not perhaps ideal, but certainly better than frothing at the mouth about them all the time.
What would probably be important would be to interrupt any kind of organizing by people who had destructive views - you don't want people to go from "if you ask me what I think in a formal way, I probably have stupid views about Thing, but if I encounter Thing in my normal daily life, it turns out that I don't really care" to "some demagogue whipped me up into a froth about Thing, and now my vague, not-real-world views are getting actionable".
posted by Frowner at 8:12 AM on March 28 [1 favorite]
Again, drawing on active mutual aid experience, I think that the hardcore prepper situation isn't super important (unless you live in a place where they are the majority and you'll have to deal with them.)
One of the most oddball things about doing the stuff I've been doing is working with people who have very, very different views on a whole range of things, and occasionally running into a person who has views I find pretty unpleasant, whether that's on the distro side or on the person-getting-stuff side. There are absolutely lines we won't cross, but sometimes even a real asshole needs a tent, you know?
My feeling tends to be that there's a big chunk of people who have weakly held bad views and their immediate response when out in the world is to just sort of put them to one side. Not perhaps ideal, but certainly better than frothing at the mouth about them all the time.
What would probably be important would be to interrupt any kind of organizing by people who had destructive views - you don't want people to go from "if you ask me what I think in a formal way, I probably have stupid views about Thing, but if I encounter Thing in my normal daily life, it turns out that I don't really care" to "some demagogue whipped me up into a froth about Thing, and now my vague, not-real-world views are getting actionable".
posted by Frowner at 8:12 AM on March 28 [1 favorite]
IMO, and as someone who spent about a week in 0F weather without electricity recently, IMO the biggest threat is not hunger but boredom. I didn't spend one second of it hungry or thirsty, but it was hard to go outside, and we were somewhat cut off from friends who generally lived farther away. So we basically had to make new fast friends with neighbors, and find things for kids to do while bundled up. It was basically too dark to read after about 5:00pm by candlelight, no tv, cell phones would charge for the 1 hour of electricity we got (sporadically), but that's not enough for the whole night. So not much to do, sitting alone in the mostly dark.
It was boring.
posted by The_Vegetables at 8:31 AM on March 28 [5 favorites]
It was boring.
posted by The_Vegetables at 8:31 AM on March 28 [5 favorites]
Speaking of which, I strongly suggest camping lights and batteries - there are all kinds of clever little lights with hooks now. Obviously you would still have to have batteries and stock up on them and even then it wouldn't provide hours and hours of reading light, but they do come in handy.
I bet there are solar lanterns now too.
posted by Frowner at 9:09 AM on March 28 [1 favorite]
I bet there are solar lanterns now too.
posted by Frowner at 9:09 AM on March 28 [1 favorite]
I'm sure this is how some people would/will/do play it out. However, it's also, as you say, a fantasy. Which means that when push comes to shove some of these people will actually just be normal, and go help granny with her meds, because Mad Max is fun to cosplay in your garage but it's not actually very fun to watch Mrs. Stevenson die on her porch.
Oh, I'm sure that some people would indeed revert to some state of normalcy and help Mrs. Stevenson out. However, I'm also sure that you'd still have a handful of total jerks who'd think "aw, fuck that old bat" and do nothing.
I mean, we have recordings of phone calls between people who worked at Enron joking amongst themselves about how their power grid failing was causing active harm to disabled elderly customers - like, down to adopting "little old lady" voices and laughing. I grant that this was not an apocalyptic scenario, but it's certainly underscored for me the notion that some people, no matter what happens, are just going to be shits.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 9:31 AM on March 28 [2 favorites]
Oh, I'm sure that some people would indeed revert to some state of normalcy and help Mrs. Stevenson out. However, I'm also sure that you'd still have a handful of total jerks who'd think "aw, fuck that old bat" and do nothing.
I mean, we have recordings of phone calls between people who worked at Enron joking amongst themselves about how their power grid failing was causing active harm to disabled elderly customers - like, down to adopting "little old lady" voices and laughing. I grant that this was not an apocalyptic scenario, but it's certainly underscored for me the notion that some people, no matter what happens, are just going to be shits.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 9:31 AM on March 28 [2 favorites]
Another thought about the fantasy preppers - it is indeed a fantasy, up to and including how they're going to be Absolutely Perfect At Everything. So - some might snap out of it and help their neighbors, some are probably going to be shits and keep everyone away. And some are going to end up hurting themselves because no, actually, they're not as good at carpentry as they thought they were after watching a few Youtube videos.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 9:52 AM on March 28
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 9:52 AM on March 28
I was away from my desk and am only just getting to this but my rule is anybody who talks about needing a fortress and weapons to protect their "property" is actually telling you they will kill you and take your stuff at their first opportunity.
posted by ob1quixote at 10:15 AM on March 28 [1 favorite]
posted by ob1quixote at 10:15 AM on March 28 [1 favorite]
Wishing I had chosen Rambo Thoreau as a user name back in the day...
posted by gimonca at 10:20 AM on March 28 [7 favorites]
posted by gimonca at 10:20 AM on March 28 [7 favorites]
I mean, we have recordings of phone calls between people who worked at Enron joking amongst themselves about how their power grid failing was causing active harm to disabled elderly customers - like, down to adopting "little old lady" voices and laughing.
Humor is a common response to tragedy, hence the long list of tasteless jokes that arrive after every disaster.
For some of us when faced with the unthinkable all we can do is laugh, particularly if we feel we have no control over what is going on.
It would have been nicer if those employees quit so they wouldn't be part of the problem, but not everyone can do that.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 11:10 AM on March 28 [1 favorite]
Humor is a common response to tragedy, hence the long list of tasteless jokes that arrive after every disaster.
For some of us when faced with the unthinkable all we can do is laugh, particularly if we feel we have no control over what is going on.
It would have been nicer if those employees quit so they wouldn't be part of the problem, but not everyone can do that.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 11:10 AM on March 28 [1 favorite]
When we had no power for a week during Sandy, we got excellent use out of some camping lanterns and hurricane lamps. We had a generator but it was only enough to run the refrigerator, the sump pump and our wifi router. (The only wire that had not been ripped out of our house was the phone line, which was also our internet so we figured, eh, why not?) We also charged a lot of our neighbors' devices and even ran an extension cord across our road (thoroughly closed by a downed tree) to run our across-the-road neighbor's sump pump when their basement threatened to flood. Camping lanterns can be really bright if you have the right kind, or you can turn them down to save fuel.
posted by Karmakaze at 11:18 AM on March 28 [2 favorites]
posted by Karmakaze at 11:18 AM on March 28 [2 favorites]
Moon Of The Crusted Snow, by Anishinaabe writer Waubgeshig Rice gave me a good deal to think about in this vein
Thanks for this recommendation! Just downloaded it to my Kindle. For obvious reasons, The Survivalists by Kashana Cauley also comes to mind. I found it more hilarious than enlightening but highly recommend it.
posted by joannemerriam at 11:35 AM on March 28 [1 favorite]
Thanks for this recommendation! Just downloaded it to my Kindle. For obvious reasons, The Survivalists by Kashana Cauley also comes to mind. I found it more hilarious than enlightening but highly recommend it.
posted by joannemerriam at 11:35 AM on March 28 [1 favorite]
I don’t know anyone else who has read The Survivalists! I really enjoyed it. If anything would put you off that flavour of survivalism it would be that book! I liked the race/class/gender commentary in it as well.
posted by hurdy gurdy girl at 12:41 PM on March 28 [1 favorite]
posted by hurdy gurdy girl at 12:41 PM on March 28 [1 favorite]
Today's conservatism is the ideology of a psychopath.
posted by little eiffel at 1:22 PM on March 28 [1 favorite]
posted by little eiffel at 1:22 PM on March 28 [1 favorite]
For a great story of mutual aid in the absence of the government after a disaster, I can recommend the documentary "100 Boats: A Hurricane Harvey Story" by Syed Hasan. I think you'll enjoy watching it on YouTube as much as I did when I saw its premiere in Houston, Texas.
It's about how a bunch of Houstonians, groups and community activists, with various skills (and power boats) banded together to save people in the wake of a terrible hurricane that flooded the city.
And I think this is apropos to some of the disparaging comments in this thread: one of the volunteer rescuers they interviewed has a prominent tattoo, a III in a ring of stars.
posted by Harvey Kilobit at 11:37 PM on March 28
It's about how a bunch of Houstonians, groups and community activists, with various skills (and power boats) banded together to save people in the wake of a terrible hurricane that flooded the city.
And I think this is apropos to some of the disparaging comments in this thread: one of the volunteer rescuers they interviewed has a prominent tattoo, a III in a ring of stars.
posted by Harvey Kilobit at 11:37 PM on March 28
Humor is a common response to tragedy, hence the long list of tasteless jokes that arrive after every disaster.
For some of us when faced with the unthinkable all we can do is laugh, particularly if we feel we have no control over what is going on.
It would have been nicer if those employees quit so they wouldn't be part of the problem, but not everyone can do that.
I....don't think you know what I am referring to.
There's a difference between the "what does 'NASA' stand for" kinds of macabre jokes people make in the wake of a mass tragedy they had nothing to do with....and being a trader at an energy company which is deliberately manipulating the market to line their own pockets and laughing at how the general public is going to react to your actions.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 4:10 AM on March 29
For some of us when faced with the unthinkable all we can do is laugh, particularly if we feel we have no control over what is going on.
It would have been nicer if those employees quit so they wouldn't be part of the problem, but not everyone can do that.
I....don't think you know what I am referring to.
There's a difference between the "what does 'NASA' stand for" kinds of macabre jokes people make in the wake of a mass tragedy they had nothing to do with....and being a trader at an energy company which is deliberately manipulating the market to line their own pockets and laughing at how the general public is going to react to your actions.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 4:10 AM on March 29
I....don't think you know what I am referring to.
Ah. Thank you for the transcript. That was definitely not what I had in my head.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 8:52 AM on March 29
Ah. Thank you for the transcript. That was definitely not what I had in my head.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 8:52 AM on March 29
Ah. Thank you for the transcript. That was definitely not what I had in my head.
Yeah - the Enron shit is one of the very, very, very many grudges I have against Dick Cheney. TO THIS DAY I am convinced that the reason the White House suddenly started being all "Saddam Hussein was behind 9/11!" in 2003 was because people had started tracing the Enron scandal to Dick Cheney in 2002, and Cheney spent a whole year trying to say that his own records re: Enron were privileged information because he was now in the government, and it was only after he lost an appeal that he started talking about the Iran-9/11 connection so much and nothing ever happened with Enron.
And to bring things back within shouting distance of the topic: Dick Cheney also compelled Google Earth to pixelate the satellite image of the Vice President's residence in Washington, so I bet he'd also be likely to take pot-shots at anyone who tried to approach his residence in the event of a societal collapse and would hole up by himself, the fucking fucker.
(I do not like Dick Cheney very much at all.)
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 10:06 AM on March 29 [3 favorites]
Yeah - the Enron shit is one of the very, very, very many grudges I have against Dick Cheney. TO THIS DAY I am convinced that the reason the White House suddenly started being all "Saddam Hussein was behind 9/11!" in 2003 was because people had started tracing the Enron scandal to Dick Cheney in 2002, and Cheney spent a whole year trying to say that his own records re: Enron were privileged information because he was now in the government, and it was only after he lost an appeal that he started talking about the Iran-9/11 connection so much and nothing ever happened with Enron.
And to bring things back within shouting distance of the topic: Dick Cheney also compelled Google Earth to pixelate the satellite image of the Vice President's residence in Washington, so I bet he'd also be likely to take pot-shots at anyone who tried to approach his residence in the event of a societal collapse and would hole up by himself, the fucking fucker.
(I do not like Dick Cheney very much at all.)
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 10:06 AM on March 29 [3 favorites]
I have a little chest freezer that runs off a big battery charged by solar. I store 11 gallons fresh water in the van. I give away what I can't store and I help out where I can.
The disasters keep happening. Many folks have not recovered from the last one, are experiencing new ones, and anticipating further disasters all at the same time. It's tiring just to watch, let alone to help out or to experience it.
I "prep" more than most because I can't really live among people in the long term, I kind of get moved along a lot. I go out to the waste lands for weeks at a time sometimes, as long as the supplies hold out
i see a lot of walking wounded at the free campgrounds is i guess what i am saying
posted by Rev. Irreverent Revenant at 4:31 PM on March 29 [1 favorite]
The disasters keep happening. Many folks have not recovered from the last one, are experiencing new ones, and anticipating further disasters all at the same time. It's tiring just to watch, let alone to help out or to experience it.
I "prep" more than most because I can't really live among people in the long term, I kind of get moved along a lot. I go out to the waste lands for weeks at a time sometimes, as long as the supplies hold out
i see a lot of walking wounded at the free campgrounds is i guess what i am saying
posted by Rev. Irreverent Revenant at 4:31 PM on March 29 [1 favorite]
It's important to specialize your niche in the post-apocalypse world.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 5:29 PM on March 29 [2 favorites]
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 5:29 PM on March 29 [2 favorites]
Moon Of The Crusted Snow, by Anishinaabe writer Waubgeshig Rice gave me a good deal to think about in this vein
Following up on this, I finished this last night - thanks again for the recommendation! - and it's really good *and* has a sequel! Which I have on hold.
posted by joannemerriam at 1:34 PM on March 30
Following up on this, I finished this last night - thanks again for the recommendation! - and it's really good *and* has a sequel! Which I have on hold.
posted by joannemerriam at 1:34 PM on March 30
so I bet he'd also be likely to take pot-shots at anyone who tried to approach his residence in the event of a societal collapse and would hole up by himself, the fucking fucker.
Hiding in an undisclosed location is part of his MO, so maybe he wouldn't potshoot, maybe just cower.
posted by GenjiandProust at 2:26 PM on March 30
Hiding in an undisclosed location is part of his MO, so maybe he wouldn't potshoot, maybe just cower.
posted by GenjiandProust at 2:26 PM on March 30
All productivism is the ideology of a psychopath. FTFY
Almost all 18th, 19th, and 20th century ideologies are deeply productivist, including capitalism, communism, neoliberalism, etc.
As Steve Keen mentioned, Adam Smith derailed economics away from being physical reality, after which everybody else followed his lead, including Marx.
I've mentioned being friends with your neighbors, but also indulge hobbies like gardenning, knitting, leatherwork, woodwork, bycicle repair, etc, or even just reading about those, professions like nursing, or more creative low-tech, and also try being less dependent upon so much stuff.
I'd think biology maybe an interesting compramise if you want a high tech field to studdy in university, but which also looks more resiliant than say machine learning. lol
posted by jeffburdges at 8:53 AM on April 1
Almost all 18th, 19th, and 20th century ideologies are deeply productivist, including capitalism, communism, neoliberalism, etc.
As Steve Keen mentioned, Adam Smith derailed economics away from being physical reality, after which everybody else followed his lead, including Marx.
I've mentioned being friends with your neighbors, but also indulge hobbies like gardenning, knitting, leatherwork, woodwork, bycicle repair, etc, or even just reading about those, professions like nursing, or more creative low-tech, and also try being less dependent upon so much stuff.
I'd think biology maybe an interesting compramise if you want a high tech field to studdy in university, but which also looks more resiliant than say machine learning. lol
posted by jeffburdges at 8:53 AM on April 1
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