Post Mortem
May 4, 2011 9:28 AM Subscribe
In the aftermath of the execution of OBL; Frontline has aired a special report by correspondents Stephen Grey and Martin Smith (53 mins).
Some further reactions from around outside America
Mark Mardell (BBC) The White House backtracks on Bin Laden
Adam Curtis (Guardian): Who will be the baddie now?
Ahmed Rashid: What Did Pakistan Know?
Jason Burke:(Guardian) What next for al-Qaida and global jihad?
Hasnain Kazim:(Der Spigel) Pakistan, Bin Laden and the Fight against Terror
Syed Saleem Shahzad (Asia Times) Taliban and al-Qaeda: Friends in arms
Rafia Zakaria (Dawn) America after Osama
Cafe Pyala; The Pakistanian Defence And Its Alternatives (via)
Some further reactions from around outside America
Mark Mardell (BBC) The White House backtracks on Bin Laden
Adam Curtis (Guardian): Who will be the baddie now?
Ahmed Rashid: What Did Pakistan Know?
Jason Burke:(Guardian) What next for al-Qaida and global jihad?
Hasnain Kazim:(Der Spigel) Pakistan, Bin Laden and the Fight against Terror
Syed Saleem Shahzad (Asia Times) Taliban and al-Qaeda: Friends in arms
Rafia Zakaria (Dawn) America after Osama
Cafe Pyala; The Pakistanian Defence And Its Alternatives (via)
This post was deleted for the following reason: Man, this is really a pretty decent example of why framing matters. If someone wants to give something like this a shot without the fight-starting word choice, that'd probably be fine. -- cortex
So ignore it?
posted by klue at 9:43 AM on May 4, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by klue at 9:43 AM on May 4, 2011 [1 favorite]
I'm not usually prone to quibbling with FPP language, but is execution really the way it went down? Are the facts even out yet?
posted by Shutter at 9:43 AM on May 4, 2011
posted by Shutter at 9:43 AM on May 4, 2011
Great collection of resources, thanks for posting. Interesting to see the changing stories about what happened, seems like the kind of thing to get right from the get go. But, not the only misstep for sure, I was interested to read this statement from the Onondaga Nation on the problems with using the name "Geronimo" as the codename for Osama in the operation.
posted by jardinier at 9:43 AM on May 4, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by jardinier at 9:43 AM on May 4, 2011 [1 favorite]
Meaning, if the facts are out and execution is the right word, can you point me to them? My ignorance needs fixing.
posted by Shutter at 9:44 AM on May 4, 2011
posted by Shutter at 9:44 AM on May 4, 2011
Can we ignore the word you all object to and discuss the resources, please? I would like to hear what you thought about the links (specifically the FRONTLINE show/site) show, not what you feel is an appropriate term for bin Laden's demise. Thanks.
posted by Mayor Curley at 9:47 AM on May 4, 2011 [6 favorites]
posted by Mayor Curley at 9:47 AM on May 4, 2011 [6 favorites]
jardinier, I'll see your complaints about the use of code names and raise you eriko's MeFi comment on how to do code names right.
posted by straw at 9:47 AM on May 4, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by straw at 9:47 AM on May 4, 2011 [1 favorite]
Words like "execution" or "assassination" are colorful and as far as we know inaccurate. "Disposal" is equally colorful and slants in another direction. Any of those words convey enough opinion in themselves that they put a spin on whatever follows. It's too soon to use any of them outside of clear editorializing.
If the point is to use a code word that will let your reader know exactly what you think about the operation, right up front, those are all fine; if that's not your intent, "killing" or just "death" is probably best.
Thanks for the links.
posted by Ice Cream Socialist at 9:47 AM on May 4, 2011
If the point is to use a code word that will let your reader know exactly what you think about the operation, right up front, those are all fine; if that's not your intent, "killing" or just "death" is probably best.
Thanks for the links.
posted by Ice Cream Socialist at 9:47 AM on May 4, 2011
I agree, poor word use in the fpp is going to doom this, an edit or a delete is called for.
posted by tomswift at 9:50 AM on May 4, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by tomswift at 9:50 AM on May 4, 2011 [1 favorite]
For the sake of the conversation may I suggest:
In the aftermath of the execution [of the raid which lead to the death] of OBL;
posted by quin at 9:50 AM on May 4, 2011
In the aftermath of the execution [of the raid which lead to the death] of OBL;
posted by quin at 9:50 AM on May 4, 2011
The FRONTLINE show and the site were really a fantastic co-ordinated effort by everyone involved, from the people making editorial decisions to the folks up until 3AM (ahem) getting the show on the site. Nothing of that scale's ever been turned around so quickly or went that close to the wire.
I'm not sure how much of the behind-the-scenes is appropriate for me to discuss, but that was really tight.
posted by Mayor Curley at 9:51 AM on May 4, 2011 [1 favorite]
I'm not sure how much of the behind-the-scenes is appropriate for me to discuss, but that was really tight.
posted by Mayor Curley at 9:51 AM on May 4, 2011 [1 favorite]
I agree, poor word use in the fpp is going to doom this, an edit or a delete is called for.
It certainly will if everyone keeps focusing on it, but you really can stop that.
posted by Mayor Curley at 9:52 AM on May 4, 2011 [3 favorites]
It certainly will if everyone keeps focusing on it, but you really can stop that.
posted by Mayor Curley at 9:52 AM on May 4, 2011 [3 favorites]
Mr Bin laden is dead. He did not die in a traffic accident.
He was shot. He was unarmed. Get over it. He is no loss.
Small people cannot see the big picture
posted by adamvasco at 9:52 AM on May 4, 2011 [2 favorites]
He was shot. He was unarmed. Get over it. He is no loss.
Small people cannot see the big picture
posted by adamvasco at 9:52 AM on May 4, 2011 [2 favorites]
Don't forget John Stewart's coverage of said topics.
posted by jeffamaphone at 9:53 AM on May 4, 2011
posted by jeffamaphone at 9:53 AM on May 4, 2011
Mr Bin laden is dead. He did not die in a traffic accident.
He was shot. He was unarmed. Get over it. He is no loss.
Small people cannot see the big picture
Point is that the people shooting him did not know he was unarmed until after they searched him, and that persons want to turn this into a talking point.
posted by Ironmouth at 9:54 AM on May 4, 2011
He was shot. He was unarmed. Get over it. He is no loss.
Small people cannot see the big picture
Point is that the people shooting him did not know he was unarmed until after they searched him, and that persons want to turn this into a talking point.
posted by Ironmouth at 9:54 AM on May 4, 2011
I agree, poor word use in the fpp is going to doom this
I would hope so.
Pakistanian?
posted by biffa at 9:57 AM on May 4, 2011
I would hope so.
Pakistanian?
posted by biffa at 9:57 AM on May 4, 2011
See that sign on the wall in the Situation Room? It's pretty good advice, people.
posted by gman at 9:58 AM on May 4, 2011 [4 favorites]
posted by gman at 9:58 AM on May 4, 2011 [4 favorites]
I heard OBL was wearing a suit of kittens when he was shot.
posted by nathancaswell at 9:59 AM on May 4, 2011
posted by nathancaswell at 9:59 AM on May 4, 2011
(not a suit made from dead kittens, a warm, fluffy suit of living kittens)
posted by nathancaswell at 10:00 AM on May 4, 2011
posted by nathancaswell at 10:00 AM on May 4, 2011
I heard OBL was wearing a suit of kittens when he was shot.
Me, too. A suit of rescue kittens, right? Rescue kittens that Bin Laden had saved from some blood-thirsty capitalists who had been planning to feed them to their pet boa constrictors or to use them in making amateur crush-porn videos. That's what I heard.
posted by saulgoodman at 10:02 AM on May 4, 2011 [1 favorite]
Me, too. A suit of rescue kittens, right? Rescue kittens that Bin Laden had saved from some blood-thirsty capitalists who had been planning to feed them to their pet boa constrictors or to use them in making amateur crush-porn videos. That's what I heard.
posted by saulgoodman at 10:02 AM on May 4, 2011 [1 favorite]
Small people cannot see the big picture
Hey guys, there's a big person in the room! Check it out! I've never seen one!
Sure, people want to talk about the content of the post (I certainly do; this Frontline piece is taking awhile to load but I'm looking forward to it), but there's heavy editorializing in the first sentence. Any seasoned Mefite who would take the time to collect these links knows this is frowned upon because it is a good way to start argumentative derailing. So we are left to think that the poster has put "execution" right up front to spark exactly this kind of flare-up.
Some of the big thinkers among us small people might even come to the conclusion that it's there in order to be objected to, so that the semantic debate can be "won" by saying, "hey, focus on the content, not the vessel." But I'm not sure I fathom the workings of big people's minds, maybe they're way above that sort of thing.
posted by Ice Cream Socialist at 10:03 AM on May 4, 2011 [2 favorites]
Hey guys, there's a big person in the room! Check it out! I've never seen one!
Sure, people want to talk about the content of the post (I certainly do; this Frontline piece is taking awhile to load but I'm looking forward to it), but there's heavy editorializing in the first sentence. Any seasoned Mefite who would take the time to collect these links knows this is frowned upon because it is a good way to start argumentative derailing. So we are left to think that the poster has put "execution" right up front to spark exactly this kind of flare-up.
Some of the big thinkers among us small people might even come to the conclusion that it's there in order to be objected to, so that the semantic debate can be "won" by saying, "hey, focus on the content, not the vessel." But I'm not sure I fathom the workings of big people's minds, maybe they're way above that sort of thing.
posted by Ice Cream Socialist at 10:03 AM on May 4, 2011 [2 favorites]
From the "America after Osama" link --
...clips of American Muslims rejoicing at the death of Osama bin Laden aired continuously on a variety of American channels may have provided in a few seconds what a decade of denunciations of terrorism has been unable to do — extricate a community from the clutches of suspicion.
I'm not as confident ths is the case, but I certainly hope my pessimism gets proved wrong.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 10:06 AM on May 4, 2011 [1 favorite]
...clips of American Muslims rejoicing at the death of Osama bin Laden aired continuously on a variety of American channels may have provided in a few seconds what a decade of denunciations of terrorism has been unable to do — extricate a community from the clutches of suspicion.
I'm not as confident ths is the case, but I certainly hope my pessimism gets proved wrong.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 10:06 AM on May 4, 2011 [1 favorite]
Mr Bin laden is dead. He did not die in a traffic accident.
He was shot. He was unarmed. Get over it. He is no loss.
Small people cannot see the big picture
Yeah, I don't give a shit whether he was armed or not, and I'm not shedding any tears over the loss of his life. For me the details are important though given the immediate reaction (and one that I suspect will remain in the public consciousness like the USA single-handedly winning WWII and Reagan single-handedly tearing down the Berlin Wall). I am not a fan of trimuphalism and found the "USA! USA! USA!" chanting in front of the White House in poor taste. The death of OBL is not the end of the wars you committed to and it doesn't justify the terrible cost in human lives they have brought. That's the big picture, not "we got the bad guy, BOO-YA!"
posted by Hoopo at 10:07 AM on May 4, 2011 [2 favorites]
He was shot. He was unarmed. Get over it. He is no loss.
Small people cannot see the big picture
Yeah, I don't give a shit whether he was armed or not, and I'm not shedding any tears over the loss of his life. For me the details are important though given the immediate reaction (and one that I suspect will remain in the public consciousness like the USA single-handedly winning WWII and Reagan single-handedly tearing down the Berlin Wall). I am not a fan of trimuphalism and found the "USA! USA! USA!" chanting in front of the White House in poor taste. The death of OBL is not the end of the wars you committed to and it doesn't justify the terrible cost in human lives they have brought. That's the big picture, not "we got the bad guy, BOO-YA!"
posted by Hoopo at 10:07 AM on May 4, 2011 [2 favorites]
I heard OBL was wearing a suit of kittens when he was shot.
The kittens were declawed, so the kill was justified.
posted by desjardins at 10:08 AM on May 4, 2011 [1 favorite]
The kittens were declawed, so the kill was justified.
posted by desjardins at 10:08 AM on May 4, 2011 [1 favorite]
Hey, what did everyone think of the links?
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 10:10 AM on May 4, 2011 [2 favorites]
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 10:10 AM on May 4, 2011 [2 favorites]
Hey, what did everyone think of the links?
HOLY CRAP, there are links TOO?!
posted by tittergrrl at 10:12 AM on May 4, 2011
HOLY CRAP, there are links TOO?!
posted by tittergrrl at 10:12 AM on May 4, 2011
How The Rest of the World Views America: 'Osama's dead, baby. Osama's dead.'
posted by ericb at 10:16 AM on May 4, 2011
posted by ericb at 10:16 AM on May 4, 2011
Suit of rescue kittens notwithstanding, I don't quite get the quibbling over 'execute' and I'll go check the other thread in a minute. In the meantime, I was at the barbers today and the local tabloid had Obama in the situation room on the front page with the headline 'Obama watched Osama die!'. Which was kind of a shitty thing to read.
posted by From Bklyn at 10:16 AM on May 4, 2011
posted by From Bklyn at 10:16 AM on May 4, 2011
much of their work is done in academic silos.
I'll take that over unwarranted soap boxes.
posted by pwally at 10:22 AM on May 4, 2011
I'll take that over unwarranted soap boxes.
posted by pwally at 10:22 AM on May 4, 2011
And I'm in the wrong thread.. **runs out of the room cyring**
posted by pwally at 10:23 AM on May 4, 2011 [2 favorites]
posted by pwally at 10:23 AM on May 4, 2011 [2 favorites]
OP is ignorant of either the inflammatory nature of his word choice, or what the word actually means. In either case, this is not best of the blue, and has soured folks on reading past the 5th word, well-intended as those links might be.
posted by indiebass at 10:24 AM on May 4, 2011
posted by indiebass at 10:24 AM on May 4, 2011
Small people cannot see the big picture
Wow, way to keep people focused on the content of your fpp and not on your own axe grinding.
posted by bjrubble at 10:26 AM on May 4, 2011
Wow, way to keep people focused on the content of your fpp and not on your own axe grinding.
posted by bjrubble at 10:26 AM on May 4, 2011
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posted by Ironmouth at 9:39 AM on May 4, 2011 [2 favorites]