A real stopping gun
June 2, 2011 9:36 AM Subscribe
I have, by now, got rather fond of Mr. James Bond. I like most of the things about him, with the exception of his rather deplorable taste in firearms. In particular, I dislike a man who comes into contact with all sorts of formidable people using a .25 Beretta. This sort of gun is really a lady's gun, and not a really nice lady at that. If Mr. Bond has to use a light gun he would be better off with a .22 rim fire; the lead bullet would cause more shocking effect than the jacketed type of the .25. - The letter that changed James Bond's gun, and gave his armourer a name.
Damn it the video linked in the article isn't available in Canada. Anyone know another source?
posted by Mitheral at 9:48 AM on June 2, 2011
posted by Mitheral at 9:48 AM on June 2, 2011
As Bond's biographer
I like that throughout, Flemming sticks with the idea that he's simply writing about this Bond guy, and will advise him on the gun suggestions.
I'm trying to imagine Bond with a .38 Centennial Airweight as suggested, and I'm just not able to do it. The PPK is such a quintessential part of 007 in my eyes.
posted by quin at 9:52 AM on June 2, 2011 [3 favorites]
I like that throughout, Flemming sticks with the idea that he's simply writing about this Bond guy, and will advise him on the gun suggestions.
I'm trying to imagine Bond with a .38 Centennial Airweight as suggested, and I'm just not able to do it. The PPK is such a quintessential part of 007 in my eyes.
posted by quin at 9:52 AM on June 2, 2011 [3 favorites]
I liked the "in the event that films are made from Bond's memoirs".
posted by DU at 9:56 AM on June 2, 2011 [7 favorites]
posted by DU at 9:56 AM on June 2, 2011 [7 favorites]
The Bond books are of variable quality, but Dr. No is definatly one of the good ones. Fleming cribbed from Boothroyd rather a lot:
“Morning, Armourer. Now I want to ask you some questions.” M's voice was casual. “First of all, what do you think of the Beretta, the -25?”
“Ladies' gun, sir.”
M raised ironic eyebrows at Bond. Bond smiled thinly.
“Really! And why do you say that?”
“No stopping power, sir. But it's easy to operate. A bit fancy looking too, if you know what I mean, sir. Appeals to the ladies.”
“How would it be with a silencer?”
“Still less stopping power, sir. And I don't like silencers. They're heavy and get stuck in your clothing when you're in a hurry. I wouldn't recommend anyone to try a combination like that, sir. Not if they were meaning business.”
The selection of the new gun is classic Bondian vermissitude-via-product-placement:
“Well, Armourer, what do you recommend?”
Major Boothroyd put on the expert's voice. “As a matter of fact, sir,” he said modestly, “I've just been testing most of the small automatics. Five thousand rounds each at twenty-five yards. Of all of them, I'd choose the Walther PPK 7.65 mm. It only came fourth after the Japanese M-14, the Russian Tokarev and the Sauer M-38. But I like its light trigger pull and the extension spur of the magazine gives a grip that should suit 007. It's a real stopping gun. Of course it's about a .32 calibre as compared with the Beretta's .25, but I wouldn't recommend anything lighter. And you can get ammunition for the Walther anywhere in the world. That gives it an edge on the Japanese and the Russian guns.” M turned to Bond. “Any comments?”
“It's a good gun, sir,” Bond admitted. “Bit more bulky than the Beretta. How does the Armourer suggest I carry it?”
“Berns Martin Triple-draw holster,” said Major Boothroyd succinctly. “Best worn inside the trouser band to the left. But it's all right below the shoulder. Stiff saddle leather. Holds the gun in with a spring. Should make for a quicker draw than that,” he gestured towards the desk. “Three-fifths of a second to hit a man at twenty feet would be about right.”
“That's settled then.” M's voice was final. “And what about something bigger?”
“There's only one gun for that, sir,” said Major Boothroyd stolidly. “Smith & Wesson Centennial Airweight. Revolver. .38 calibre. Hammerless, so it won't catch in clothing. Overall length of six and a half inches and it only weighs thirteen ounces. To keep down the weight, the cylinder holds only five cartridges. But by the time they're gone,” Major Boothroyd allowed himself a wintry smile, “somebody's been killed. Fires the .38 S & W Special. Very accurate cartridge indeed. With standard loading it has a muzzle velocity of eight hundred and sixty feet per second and muzzle energy of two hundred and sixty foot-pounds. There are various barrel lengths, three and a half inch, five inch...”
posted by Artw at 9:56 AM on June 2, 2011 [20 favorites]
“Morning, Armourer. Now I want to ask you some questions.” M's voice was casual. “First of all, what do you think of the Beretta, the -25?”
“Ladies' gun, sir.”
M raised ironic eyebrows at Bond. Bond smiled thinly.
“Really! And why do you say that?”
“No stopping power, sir. But it's easy to operate. A bit fancy looking too, if you know what I mean, sir. Appeals to the ladies.”
“How would it be with a silencer?”
“Still less stopping power, sir. And I don't like silencers. They're heavy and get stuck in your clothing when you're in a hurry. I wouldn't recommend anyone to try a combination like that, sir. Not if they were meaning business.”
The selection of the new gun is classic Bondian vermissitude-via-product-placement:
“Well, Armourer, what do you recommend?”
Major Boothroyd put on the expert's voice. “As a matter of fact, sir,” he said modestly, “I've just been testing most of the small automatics. Five thousand rounds each at twenty-five yards. Of all of them, I'd choose the Walther PPK 7.65 mm. It only came fourth after the Japanese M-14, the Russian Tokarev and the Sauer M-38. But I like its light trigger pull and the extension spur of the magazine gives a grip that should suit 007. It's a real stopping gun. Of course it's about a .32 calibre as compared with the Beretta's .25, but I wouldn't recommend anything lighter. And you can get ammunition for the Walther anywhere in the world. That gives it an edge on the Japanese and the Russian guns.” M turned to Bond. “Any comments?”
“It's a good gun, sir,” Bond admitted. “Bit more bulky than the Beretta. How does the Armourer suggest I carry it?”
“Berns Martin Triple-draw holster,” said Major Boothroyd succinctly. “Best worn inside the trouser band to the left. But it's all right below the shoulder. Stiff saddle leather. Holds the gun in with a spring. Should make for a quicker draw than that,” he gestured towards the desk. “Three-fifths of a second to hit a man at twenty feet would be about right.”
“That's settled then.” M's voice was final. “And what about something bigger?”
“There's only one gun for that, sir,” said Major Boothroyd stolidly. “Smith & Wesson Centennial Airweight. Revolver. .38 calibre. Hammerless, so it won't catch in clothing. Overall length of six and a half inches and it only weighs thirteen ounces. To keep down the weight, the cylinder holds only five cartridges. But by the time they're gone,” Major Boothroyd allowed himself a wintry smile, “somebody's been killed. Fires the .38 S & W Special. Very accurate cartridge indeed. With standard loading it has a muzzle velocity of eight hundred and sixty feet per second and muzzle energy of two hundred and sixty foot-pounds. There are various barrel lengths, three and a half inch, five inch...”
posted by Artw at 9:56 AM on June 2, 2011 [20 favorites]
quin: yeah, and definitely not something in .357 magnum either. WAY to friggin' loud and flashy for a spy dood.
posted by BeerFilter at 9:57 AM on June 2, 2011
posted by BeerFilter at 9:57 AM on June 2, 2011
I'm actually suprised he didn't use the nasty lady bit, that's very Bond.
posted by Artw at 9:57 AM on June 2, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by Artw at 9:57 AM on June 2, 2011 [1 favorite]
Is calling a man a lady still an insult?
posted by KokuRyu at 10:00 AM on June 2, 2011 [2 favorites]
posted by KokuRyu at 10:00 AM on June 2, 2011 [2 favorites]
Yeah, I have never been a fan of semi-automatics for concealed weapons. The advantage of the semi automatic is its magazine capacity, but for defense, you don't want to load the magazine to full capacity anyway, it can weaken the spring and lead to jamming.
The revolver is definitely the way to go for maximum reliability, especially with the concealed hammer. It's just a shame the Airweight is so damned ugly.
posted by Xoebe at 10:04 AM on June 2, 2011 [1 favorite]
The revolver is definitely the way to go for maximum reliability, especially with the concealed hammer. It's just a shame the Airweight is so damned ugly.
posted by Xoebe at 10:04 AM on June 2, 2011 [1 favorite]
I'm trying to imagine Bond with a .38 Centennial Airweight as suggested, and I'm just not able to do it. The PPK is such a quintessential part of 007 in my eyes.
Yeah, ugh. I've had a few occasions to fire the titanium-cylinder version of the .38 Centennial (the Airlite 342 Ti, I think). It has an absolutely horrendous kick, actually kind of painful to fire.
Revolvers in general just seem too old-fashioned and crude for Bond. Also, you can't really fit them with suppressors, which is a showstopper for a spy, I would think.
posted by jedicus at 10:05 AM on June 2, 2011
Yeah, ugh. I've had a few occasions to fire the titanium-cylinder version of the .38 Centennial (the Airlite 342 Ti, I think). It has an absolutely horrendous kick, actually kind of painful to fire.
Revolvers in general just seem too old-fashioned and crude for Bond. Also, you can't really fit them with suppressors, which is a showstopper for a spy, I would think.
posted by jedicus at 10:05 AM on June 2, 2011
Oh, and for spy stuff, another advantage of the revolver is that it doesn't eject the spent cartridge.
posted by Xoebe at 10:06 AM on June 2, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by Xoebe at 10:06 AM on June 2, 2011 [1 favorite]
That gun ain't got enough fire power to make my joint useless. It definitely won't keep me from emptying out half my mag.
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 10:08 AM on June 2, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 10:08 AM on June 2, 2011 [1 favorite]
Is calling a man a lady still an insult?
Although think that the use of the word lady, as an insult for a man, is wrong, I don't think that this is what is happening in this post.
posted by Hicksu at 10:11 AM on June 2, 2011 [3 favorites]
Although think that the use of the word lady, as an insult for a man, is wrong, I don't think that this is what is happening in this post.
posted by Hicksu at 10:11 AM on June 2, 2011 [3 favorites]
That gun ain't got enough fire power to make my joint useless. It definitely won't keep me from emptying out half my mag.
I pack one of these ... for close encounters.
posted by Artw at 10:16 AM on June 2, 2011
I pack one of these ... for close encounters.
posted by Artw at 10:16 AM on June 2, 2011
Damn it the video linked in the article isn't available in Canada. Anyone know another source?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VuO34MDezzU
posted by billcicletta at 10:22 AM on June 2, 2011 [4 favorites]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VuO34MDezzU
posted by billcicletta at 10:22 AM on June 2, 2011 [4 favorites]
James Bond with a Revolver
I pack one of these ... for close encounters.
Okay Artw just admit that you've never seen a James Bond movie.
posted by shakespeherian at 10:23 AM on June 2, 2011
I pack one of these ... for close encounters.
Okay Artw just admit that you've never seen a James Bond movie.
posted by shakespeherian at 10:23 AM on June 2, 2011
Okay Artw just admit that you've never seen a James Bond movie.
You do know that Artw is British, male and over the age of 20... it would have been illegal for him not have seen a Bond movie
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 10:25 AM on June 2, 2011 [5 favorites]
You do know that Artw is British, male and over the age of 20... it would have been illegal for him not have seen a Bond movie
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 10:25 AM on June 2, 2011 [5 favorites]
Ooh, the whole letter from Boothroyd and lots more is in an old Sports Illustrated article from 1962
posted by shothotbot at 10:25 AM on June 2, 2011 [16 favorites]
posted by shothotbot at 10:25 AM on June 2, 2011 [16 favorites]
(SI article by Mr. Ian Fleming!)
posted by shothotbot at 10:26 AM on June 2, 2011
posted by shothotbot at 10:26 AM on June 2, 2011
Damn it the video linked in the article isn't available in Canada. Anyone know another source?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VuO34MDezzU
Dude just straight-up murdered the cameraman!
posted by Artw at 10:29 AM on June 2, 2011
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VuO34MDezzU
Dude just straight-up murdered the cameraman!
posted by Artw at 10:29 AM on June 2, 2011
Artw is over 20? No wonder I don't trust him!
posted by shakespeherian at 10:29 AM on June 2, 2011
posted by shakespeherian at 10:29 AM on June 2, 2011
"with very sincere thanks for your extremely helpful and workmanlike letter."
I'm going to close all my professional correspondence that way from now on.
posted by Nelson at 10:36 AM on June 2, 2011 [4 favorites]
I'm going to close all my professional correspondence that way from now on.
posted by Nelson at 10:36 AM on June 2, 2011 [4 favorites]
I like that Boothroyd is rich enough to have an extensive gun collection, eccentric enough to fire them in the house (to light fires, no less) and frugal enough to use the same tomato can for all 3 test shots. Oh and honest enough to admit that handguns are all about killing human beings.
posted by DU at 10:36 AM on June 2, 2011 [4 favorites]
posted by DU at 10:36 AM on June 2, 2011 [4 favorites]
James Bond with a Revolver
Actually, if we are talking the theatrical versions, in Live and Let Die Roger Moore packed a big ass .44 S&W which looked completely absurd on a stealthy spy.
posted by quin at 10:44 AM on June 2, 2011
Actually, if we are talking the theatrical versions, in Live and Let Die Roger Moore packed a big ass .44 S&W which looked completely absurd on a stealthy spy.
posted by quin at 10:44 AM on June 2, 2011
DU: "I like that Boothroyd is rich enough to have an extensive gun collection, eccentric enough to fire them in the house (to light fires, no less) and frugal enough to use the same tomato can for all 3 test shots. Oh and honest enough to admit that handguns are all about killing human beings."
Yet another reason to be a jealous American Anglophile: While U.S. gun nuts are too often psychopathic-ly obsessed with their interpretation of the 2nd Amendment, the UK ones are charming eccentrics.
posted by MCMikeNamara at 10:44 AM on June 2, 2011
Yet another reason to be a jealous American Anglophile: While U.S. gun nuts are too often psychopathic-ly obsessed with their interpretation of the 2nd Amendment, the UK ones are charming eccentrics.
posted by MCMikeNamara at 10:44 AM on June 2, 2011
OH man, everyone go read that SI article right now, which reproduces Boothroyd's letter in its entirety. It awesomely concludes, ""If you have managed to read this far I hope that you will accept the above in the spirit that it is offered. I have enjoyed your books immensely and will say right now that I have no criticism of the women in them, except that I've never met any like them and would doubtless get into trouble if I did."
posted by leesh at 10:45 AM on June 2, 2011 [2 favorites]
posted by leesh at 10:45 AM on June 2, 2011 [2 favorites]
Is calling a man a lady still an insult?
posted by KokuRyu at 6:00 PM on June 2
Depends on the man. Depends on the lady.
posted by Decani at 10:46 AM on June 2, 2011 [10 favorites]
posted by KokuRyu at 6:00 PM on June 2
Depends on the man. Depends on the lady.
posted by Decani at 10:46 AM on June 2, 2011 [10 favorites]
At the present moment Bond is particularly anxious for expertise on the weapons likely to be carried by Russian agents and I wonder if you have any information on this.
Ian Fleming, recognizing his limitations and elegantly seeking help. Smart, smart, smart.
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 10:46 AM on June 2, 2011 [2 favorites]
Ian Fleming, recognizing his limitations and elegantly seeking help. Smart, smart, smart.
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 10:46 AM on June 2, 2011 [2 favorites]
quin, Bond had the .44 because Tee Hee had rendered his Walther PPK useless with his hook.
posted by infinitewindow at 10:50 AM on June 2, 2011
posted by infinitewindow at 10:50 AM on June 2, 2011
The Walther PPK is also the weapon of choice of Leonard Cohen.
posted by Capt. Renault at 10:54 AM on June 2, 2011
posted by Capt. Renault at 10:54 AM on June 2, 2011
MCMikeNamara writes "While U.S. gun nuts are too often psychopathic-ly obsessed with their interpretation of the 2nd Amendment, the UK ones are charming eccentrics."
Well that was in the 50s. There aren't any handgun eccentrics in the UK anymore, charming or otherwise, because the vast majority of handguns are illegal to possess in the UK. The 2nd amendment obsessed still have their handguns.
posted by Mitheral at 10:55 AM on June 2, 2011 [2 favorites]
Well that was in the 50s. There aren't any handgun eccentrics in the UK anymore, charming or otherwise, because the vast majority of handguns are illegal to possess in the UK. The 2nd amendment obsessed still have their handguns.
posted by Mitheral at 10:55 AM on June 2, 2011 [2 favorites]
> Actually, if we are talking the theatrical versions, in Live and Let Die Roger Moore packed a
> big ass .44 S&W which looked completely absurd on a stealthy spy.
There is a .44 revolver that could be quite appropriate, the Charter Arms .44 special Bulldog Pug five shot. I have one for just walking around in the woods. (A retired UGa professor and his wife were killed by feral dogs near here last year.) The .44 special is a big cartridge, like the .45 Colt and the .45 auto, but is actually quite mild (if you don't load it up, which I don't) and doesn't beat a small frame to death. Mine is blue, not stainless, and though it has an exposed hammer it has no tab for thumb cocking (not a mod, came that way from the factory) so it doesn't snag on clothes and you pretty much have to fire it double-action. That last is useful for legal reasons. If I were unaccountably in a Bond-style situation with nothing but a pocket handgun, this one is as good as any other I can think of.
posted by jfuller at 11:03 AM on June 2, 2011 [2 favorites]
> big ass .44 S&W which looked completely absurd on a stealthy spy.
There is a .44 revolver that could be quite appropriate, the Charter Arms .44 special Bulldog Pug five shot. I have one for just walking around in the woods. (A retired UGa professor and his wife were killed by feral dogs near here last year.) The .44 special is a big cartridge, like the .45 Colt and the .45 auto, but is actually quite mild (if you don't load it up, which I don't) and doesn't beat a small frame to death. Mine is blue, not stainless, and though it has an exposed hammer it has no tab for thumb cocking (not a mod, came that way from the factory) so it doesn't snag on clothes and you pretty much have to fire it double-action. That last is useful for legal reasons. If I were unaccountably in a Bond-style situation with nothing but a pocket handgun, this one is as good as any other I can think of.
posted by jfuller at 11:03 AM on June 2, 2011 [2 favorites]
The video shows it best, look at the .25 vs. the .38 , vs the .44 mag damage. LEO folks know this, and usually have 9mm at the least. (not .380 ACP, even though it shoots same dia. boolit.)
When I worked in AK, all the LEOs there packed 2 sidearms, a 1911 or Glock type for humans, and a Giant revolver on the other hip for Ursa, .44 mag being the minimum caliber for these fellow fish-eaters. Even .223 (now the standard-issue military round) is not legal for deer hunting in many states, stopping power issues and all. Humans weigh about the same as deer.
I conclude James Bond was underpowered, except at close range. YMMV
-lcc
posted by primdehuit at 11:05 AM on June 2, 2011
When I worked in AK, all the LEOs there packed 2 sidearms, a 1911 or Glock type for humans, and a Giant revolver on the other hip for Ursa, .44 mag being the minimum caliber for these fellow fish-eaters. Even .223 (now the standard-issue military round) is not legal for deer hunting in many states, stopping power issues and all. Humans weigh about the same as deer.
I conclude James Bond was underpowered, except at close range. YMMV
-lcc
posted by primdehuit at 11:05 AM on June 2, 2011
The problem with revolvers is thickness - the cylinder is just too hard to hide effectively, even in small calibers. The problem with small automatics is reliability.
I can't for the life of me remember who makes it, but there's a single-shot pistol in .357 Magnum about the size of a business card case. This strikes me as a better weapon for a man who relies on stealth, bluff and quick thinking - if he needs a handgun, he'll only need it once, it can't be spotted by alert henchmen, and it better damn well do the job.
If he needs firepower, he can always smuggle in a HK machine pistol or a tactical shotgun in a special briefcase or golfbag or something.
Actually, a mortar disguised as a golf bag would be awesome.
posted by Slap*Happy at 11:15 AM on June 2, 2011 [1 favorite]
I can't for the life of me remember who makes it, but there's a single-shot pistol in .357 Magnum about the size of a business card case. This strikes me as a better weapon for a man who relies on stealth, bluff and quick thinking - if he needs a handgun, he'll only need it once, it can't be spotted by alert henchmen, and it better damn well do the job.
If he needs firepower, he can always smuggle in a HK machine pistol or a tactical shotgun in a special briefcase or golfbag or something.
Actually, a mortar disguised as a golf bag would be awesome.
posted by Slap*Happy at 11:15 AM on June 2, 2011 [1 favorite]
the UK ones are charming eccentrics
Hmmmm not all
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 11:16 AM on June 2, 2011 [1 favorite]
Hmmmm not all
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 11:16 AM on June 2, 2011 [1 favorite]
(Must try harder to get him out to a Manchester meetup)....
posted by Jofus at 11:17 AM on June 2, 2011
posted by Jofus at 11:17 AM on June 2, 2011
The SI article (with pictures) starts on page 76 of the scanned version.
posted by djb at 11:17 AM on June 2, 2011 [2 favorites]
posted by djb at 11:17 AM on June 2, 2011 [2 favorites]
I have nothing to add here other than that this post has made me very happy. What a neat story!
posted by EatTheWeek at 11:23 AM on June 2, 2011
posted by EatTheWeek at 11:23 AM on June 2, 2011
You know folks, for hideability,
Here's one I've had for years and fits inside rubber wellies when taken apart. Only .22 cal however. But ask Bobby Kennedy if that's enough. (Stirring the pot...)
http://www.browning.com/products/catalog/firearms/detail.asp?value=B&cat_id=021&type_id=001
-lcc
posted by primdehuit at 11:23 AM on June 2, 2011
Here's one I've had for years and fits inside rubber wellies when taken apart. Only .22 cal however. But ask Bobby Kennedy if that's enough. (Stirring the pot...)
http://www.browning.com/products/catalog/firearms/detail.asp?value=B&cat_id=021&type_id=001
-lcc
posted by primdehuit at 11:23 AM on June 2, 2011
Thanks! As a total James Bond nerd, this totally makes my day.
Is calling a man a lady still an insult?
It certainly is amongst my coworkers. One particular manager is constantly yelling at his (all male) crew, asking them if they're a bunch of girls. Then his crew uses female pronouns to bitch about him behind his back. And we're among the more liberally staffed opera companies. A few years later we're still talking about the visiting TD who randomly offered up this comment, "We don't have any girls working for us. And no niggers neither."
posted by mollymayhem at 11:39 AM on June 2, 2011
Is calling a man a lady still an insult?
It certainly is amongst my coworkers. One particular manager is constantly yelling at his (all male) crew, asking them if they're a bunch of girls. Then his crew uses female pronouns to bitch about him behind his back. And we're among the more liberally staffed opera companies. A few years later we're still talking about the visiting TD who randomly offered up this comment, "We don't have any girls working for us. And no niggers neither."
posted by mollymayhem at 11:39 AM on June 2, 2011
And gun companies around the world rejoiced that killing people would be viewed as a culturally acceptable way of solving problems. And they continue to rejoice.
posted by a womble is an active kind of sloth at 11:56 AM on June 2, 2011
posted by a womble is an active kind of sloth at 11:56 AM on June 2, 2011
Interesting that he's advocating the Airweight. That's the weapon Matt Helm is forced by his agency's ballistics-conscious armorer to start using instead of his much-loved .22 Colt Woodsman. The first two Helm books were published a couple of years later than Dr. No (1960 vs. 1958) so I do wonder whether Hamilton was just ripping off Fleming there, or what.
posted by dersins at 12:04 PM on June 2, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by dersins at 12:04 PM on June 2, 2011 [1 favorite]
I'll stick up for the little Beretta .25 here to say that, for a camping firearm where you don't expect, e.g., bears, it's a neat little piece. Very small, lightweight and, with a half-full mag, quite adequate to fend off rabid critters like coyotes, skunks, etc. As it happens, it WAS a lady's gu: belonged to my Mom and she gave it to me.
Loved Bond when I was younger and asked my brother, who owned a gun shop in Georgia, for a PPK for my birthday. Carried it (illegally, alas: I was young and foolish) in L.A. the whole time I was in grad school. (USC is in an extremely dangerous neighborhood.) Fortunately, I never had cause to use it and wouldn't carry concealed now, even though it's legal in AZ.
Though I was actually mugged once, I talked my way out of it to the conclusion that the mugger offered me a handshake and an apology instead of taking my wallet.
posted by darkstar at 12:04 PM on June 2, 2011
Loved Bond when I was younger and asked my brother, who owned a gun shop in Georgia, for a PPK for my birthday. Carried it (illegally, alas: I was young and foolish) in L.A. the whole time I was in grad school. (USC is in an extremely dangerous neighborhood.) Fortunately, I never had cause to use it and wouldn't carry concealed now, even though it's legal in AZ.
Though I was actually mugged once, I talked my way out of it to the conclusion that the mugger offered me a handshake and an apology instead of taking my wallet.
posted by darkstar at 12:04 PM on June 2, 2011
Though, to be honest, if I had one, I'd probably prefer the little Taurus .32 Magnum for a lightweight camping handgun.
posted by darkstar at 12:09 PM on June 2, 2011
posted by darkstar at 12:09 PM on June 2, 2011
> And gun companies around the world rejoiced that killing people would be viewed as a
> culturally acceptable way of solving problems. And they continue to rejoice.
> posted by a womble is an active kind of sloth at 2:56 PM on June 2 [+] [!]
This is the brandy and cigars room. The anti-smoking anti-drinking revival is down the hall.
posted by jfuller at 12:12 PM on June 2, 2011 [10 favorites]
> culturally acceptable way of solving problems. And they continue to rejoice.
> posted by a womble is an active kind of sloth at 2:56 PM on June 2 [+] [!]
This is the brandy and cigars room. The anti-smoking anti-drinking revival is down the hall.
posted by jfuller at 12:12 PM on June 2, 2011 [10 favorites]
The advantage of the semi automatic is its magazine capacity
The advantage of a semi-auto as a personal weapon today, as it was in the 1950s, is that they're thinner. If you're going to wear a snazzy tailored suit, it's easier to conceal a PPK or its descendents (like the Kahr PM9 or the little Kel-Tec guns) than a revolver.
The minimum thickness for a 5- or 6-shot revolver in a given caliber is significantly more than the thickness for a semi-auto in the same or similar caliber.
posted by Kadin2048 at 12:12 PM on June 2, 2011 [1 favorite]
The advantage of a semi-auto as a personal weapon today, as it was in the 1950s, is that they're thinner. If you're going to wear a snazzy tailored suit, it's easier to conceal a PPK or its descendents (like the Kahr PM9 or the little Kel-Tec guns) than a revolver.
The minimum thickness for a 5- or 6-shot revolver in a given caliber is significantly more than the thickness for a semi-auto in the same or similar caliber.
posted by Kadin2048 at 12:12 PM on June 2, 2011 [1 favorite]
Since I am not in the habit of stealing another man's expertise, I shall ask you in due course to accept remuneration for your most valuable technical aid.
How refresingly old fashoined.
posted by Muddler at 12:19 PM on June 2, 2011 [2 favorites]
How refresingly old fashoined.
posted by Muddler at 12:19 PM on June 2, 2011 [2 favorites]
I'll stick up for the little Beretta .25 here to say that, for a camping firearm where you don't expect, e.g., bears
I was once at a very large, crowded, redneck bar in Smyrna, Tennessee. It was getting late and most of the crowd had started to shift out to the parking lot. Those of you who have been to such an establishment will be shocked, SHOCKED!, to know that a fight broke out and one patron was bounced. He returned as the people were filing out and again started to try and fight his rival, who basically rebuffed and ignored him and climbed into his car to leave. The assailant suddenly brandished a pistol and CRACK-CRACK-CRACK shots were fired! The crowd scattered, some people (including a couple of bouncers) charged and tackled the shooter, disarming him and pinning him to the ground until the police and EMTs arrived. The victim was slumped in huis car with blood all over his face.
Though the shooter had stood a foot or two in front of the car and had placed all three shots directly into the windshield in a neat pattern where his target's face was, the victim was awake, concious, and himself being restrained in order to keep him from beating the crap out of the shooter. According to those more knowledgeable in the crowd that night (including a police officer I know) had the shooter had anything other than a .25, it would have been a murder rather than an attempted murder.
Go get yourself a cheap .32, .380, or .38 before you piss off any bears.
posted by The 10th Regiment of Foot at 12:22 PM on June 2, 2011 [2 favorites]
I was once at a very large, crowded, redneck bar in Smyrna, Tennessee. It was getting late and most of the crowd had started to shift out to the parking lot. Those of you who have been to such an establishment will be shocked, SHOCKED!, to know that a fight broke out and one patron was bounced. He returned as the people were filing out and again started to try and fight his rival, who basically rebuffed and ignored him and climbed into his car to leave. The assailant suddenly brandished a pistol and CRACK-CRACK-CRACK shots were fired! The crowd scattered, some people (including a couple of bouncers) charged and tackled the shooter, disarming him and pinning him to the ground until the police and EMTs arrived. The victim was slumped in huis car with blood all over his face.
Though the shooter had stood a foot or two in front of the car and had placed all three shots directly into the windshield in a neat pattern where his target's face was, the victim was awake, concious, and himself being restrained in order to keep him from beating the crap out of the shooter. According to those more knowledgeable in the crowd that night (including a police officer I know) had the shooter had anything other than a .25, it would have been a murder rather than an attempted murder.
Go get yourself a cheap .32, .380, or .38 before you piss off any bears.
posted by The 10th Regiment of Foot at 12:22 PM on June 2, 2011 [2 favorites]
I agree with Boothroyd that there are times when lightness and comfort must be sacrificed for stopping-power. It is certainly bulkier than a small pistol like the Beretta or the PPK, and uses a magazine, but I find that this is sufficient as a personal-carry piece for most situations where a little more "punch" is required.
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 12:24 PM on June 2, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 12:24 PM on June 2, 2011 [1 favorite]
I can't for the life of me remember who makes it, but there's a single-shot pistol in .357 Magnum about the size of a business card case.
That'd be the Downsizer WSP, available in .357 and .45. Well, I say 'available.' It's not made anymore.
Here's one I've had for years and fits inside rubber wellies when taken apart.
For spy-gadgetry I prefer the Henry AR-7. It fits into its own stock.
posted by jedicus at 12:25 PM on June 2, 2011 [1 favorite]
That'd be the Downsizer WSP, available in .357 and .45. Well, I say 'available.' It's not made anymore.
Here's one I've had for years and fits inside rubber wellies when taken apart.
For spy-gadgetry I prefer the Henry AR-7. It fits into its own stock.
posted by jedicus at 12:25 PM on June 2, 2011 [1 favorite]
I have never read an Ian Fleming book, or seen a James Bond movie. I may do so now. What a wonderful exchange. (And the fact that this was in Sports Illustrated just blows my mind.)
posted by dlugoczaj at 12:26 PM on June 2, 2011
posted by dlugoczaj at 12:26 PM on June 2, 2011
Andy Sipowicz used a .38 Police Special (very similar I think to the .38 Centennial Airweight) on NYPD Blue. I never could get completely used to that small gun in his beefy hand, but somehow he made it work.
posted by Brocktoon at 12:29 PM on June 2, 2011
posted by Brocktoon at 12:29 PM on June 2, 2011
For spy-gadgetry I prefer the Henry AR-7. It fits into its own stock
Meh,
Only has 8 shots :-{){{
Seriously, though, quality Apocolypse Rifle, Every family should have one...
You know, just me, though
-lcc
posted by primdehuit at 12:46 PM on June 2, 2011
Meh,
Only has 8 shots :-{){{
Seriously, though, quality Apocolypse Rifle, Every family should have one...
You know, just me, though
-lcc
posted by primdehuit at 12:46 PM on June 2, 2011
Meanwhile, I wonder what the gadget inventor who lived next door to Ian was named? Quincy, perhaps?
Q is short of Quartermaster.
But you knew that.
I have never read an Ian Fleming book, or seen a James Bond movie. I may do so now.
Be aware that the quality of both books and movies varies wildly. The movies improve after a few drinks.
Fleming's brother Peter was the better writer, though not as wildly successful. You might want to take a look at Ian's non-fiction, such as Thrilling Cities and The Diamond Smugglers.
posted by IndigoJones at 12:53 PM on June 2, 2011
Q is short of Quartermaster.
But you knew that.
I have never read an Ian Fleming book, or seen a James Bond movie. I may do so now.
Be aware that the quality of both books and movies varies wildly. The movies improve after a few drinks.
Fleming's brother Peter was the better writer, though not as wildly successful. You might want to take a look at Ian's non-fiction, such as Thrilling Cities and The Diamond Smugglers.
posted by IndigoJones at 12:53 PM on June 2, 2011
For high-test James Bond gun nerditry, there's always imfdb.
James Bond (Sean Connery) is assigned a 7.65 mm "Walther PPK" by M, ordering him to hand over his Beretta (which M accuses of being underpowered, despite the 1934's Italian 9mm Corto being superior to the replacement PPK's 7.65mm chambering). However in the film he actually uses a longer-barreled Walther PP chambered in .380 ACP (same as carried by the Metropolitan Police in 1961).posted by zamboni at 12:58 PM on June 2, 2011
You know, this might be a repost, (which I understand, is taboo), but
http://www.vincelewis.net/bond3.html
He didn't always use Mouse Guns....
-lcc
posted by primdehuit at 1:00 PM on June 2, 2011
http://www.vincelewis.net/bond3.html
He didn't always use Mouse Guns....
-lcc
posted by primdehuit at 1:00 PM on June 2, 2011
The diamond smugglers is good.
did anyone mention that Stephenson was a model for Bond/M and was not peter wright an inspiration for Q.
patrick mcgoohan was the original pick for Bond.
posted by clavdivs at 1:00 PM on June 2, 2011
did anyone mention that Stephenson was a model for Bond/M and was not peter wright an inspiration for Q.
patrick mcgoohan was the original pick for Bond.
posted by clavdivs at 1:00 PM on June 2, 2011
If you are concerned about bears, get Bear Mace, not a handgun. It's more effective at dissuading a bear from mauling you than anything besides a shotgun or a large-caliber hunting rifle, and it's a hell of a lot smaller. Works on dogs and just about anything else that does most of its thinking via its nose.
That said, if you are concerned about homo sapiens, a handgun has the distinct advantage of being universally recognized as a lethal instrument, which means you might not have to actually use it.
I wonder if a bear that has been maced would learn to recognize the can and run away the second you pull it out? My suspicion is yes.
posted by Kadin2048 at 1:02 PM on June 2, 2011
That said, if you are concerned about homo sapiens, a handgun has the distinct advantage of being universally recognized as a lethal instrument, which means you might not have to actually use it.
I wonder if a bear that has been maced would learn to recognize the can and run away the second you pull it out? My suspicion is yes.
posted by Kadin2048 at 1:02 PM on June 2, 2011
primdehuit writes "http://www.vincelewis.net/bond3.html"
No one cares in comments. I linkified it for you.
posted by Mitheral at 1:03 PM on June 2, 2011
No one cares in comments. I linkified it for you.
posted by Mitheral at 1:03 PM on June 2, 2011
Oh! I almost forgot - the Semmerling LM4. It looks like an auto, but it's actually manually cycled with the thumb, obviating the need for a mechanism to move the slide. It fires a big, beefy .45 cartridge, and has a 5 round capacity, yet is smaller and lighter than most small-caliber compact automatics. American Derringer Co. makes a repro in stainless, at special request.
Not as nice as hideout gun as that Downsizer, but not bad.
posted by Slap*Happy at 1:04 PM on June 2, 2011
Not as nice as hideout gun as that Downsizer, but not bad.
posted by Slap*Happy at 1:04 PM on June 2, 2011
Go get yourself a cheap .32, .380, or .38 before you piss off any bears.
I'm not sure, but I think you perhaps misunderstood my comment. I, too, would counsel anyone expecting to have occasion to meaningfully shoot at humans through windshields, or bears, to go with a higher calibre weapon.
posted by darkstar at 1:05 PM on June 2, 2011
I'm not sure, but I think you perhaps misunderstood my comment. I, too, would counsel anyone expecting to have occasion to meaningfully shoot at humans through windshields, or bears, to go with a higher calibre weapon.
posted by darkstar at 1:05 PM on June 2, 2011
If you are concerned about bears, get Bear Mace, not a handgun. It's more effective at dissuading a bear from mauling you than anything besides a shotgun or a large-caliber hunting rifle, and it's a hell of a lot smaller. Works on dogs and just about anything else that does most of its thinking via its nose.
I've been in AK, and many days have wind in excess of 5 mph. Look at the info on quality bear spray, and they will tell you Not to use in tailwind. Well, there you have it, don't use it if it's going to spray into your face (25% chance), or if it will spray off into a 90 degree wind off your side. I'm not into those sorta odds. BTW, if you work for the AK dept of Trans, they Issue you firearms, whether or not you're familiar with them. Something BAD must have happened to make this the Policy in Anchorage, etc.
Just my Take,
-lcc
posted by primdehuit at 1:14 PM on June 2, 2011
I've been in AK, and many days have wind in excess of 5 mph. Look at the info on quality bear spray, and they will tell you Not to use in tailwind. Well, there you have it, don't use it if it's going to spray into your face (25% chance), or if it will spray off into a 90 degree wind off your side. I'm not into those sorta odds. BTW, if you work for the AK dept of Trans, they Issue you firearms, whether or not you're familiar with them. Something BAD must have happened to make this the Policy in Anchorage, etc.
Just my Take,
-lcc
posted by primdehuit at 1:14 PM on June 2, 2011
Sorry, Mistook Bears tail for my own.
Re-read Headwind.
-lcc
posted by primdehuit at 1:19 PM on June 2, 2011
Re-read Headwind.
-lcc
posted by primdehuit at 1:19 PM on June 2, 2011
primdehuit -- no need to append a "sig' at the end of every comment.
Love and Kisses,
Todd Lokken
posted by briank at 1:21 PM on June 2, 2011 [1 favorite]
Love and Kisses,
Todd Lokken
posted by briank at 1:21 PM on June 2, 2011 [1 favorite]
some people quite like being mauled by bears.
Funny, I was thinking more about how being called a lady probably makes some men wet.
All things under the sun.
posted by rokusan at 1:41 PM on June 2, 2011 [2 favorites]
Funny, I was thinking more about how being called a lady probably makes some men wet.
All things under the sun.
posted by rokusan at 1:41 PM on June 2, 2011 [2 favorites]
MF Folks:
You know, I'll have to admit to being confused. Thanks for the protocol advice, but do you post as each other (Briank) (Stenseng)?? often? Or am I being played at the bottom of the thread where I always lurk?
PS I know I gotta lot to learn, but I figure the bottom of the thread is the best place to ask.
Just Wonderin'
-
posted by primdehuit at 1:48 PM on June 2, 2011
You know, I'll have to admit to being confused. Thanks for the protocol advice, but do you post as each other (Briank) (Stenseng)?? often? Or am I being played at the bottom of the thread where I always lurk?
PS I know I gotta lot to learn, but I figure the bottom of the thread is the best place to ask.
Just Wonderin'
-
posted by primdehuit at 1:48 PM on June 2, 2011
Todd Lokken is an in-joke about signing your posts. Neither briank or stenseng are actually Todd Lokken, as far as I know.
posted by zamboni at 1:52 PM on June 2, 2011
posted by zamboni at 1:52 PM on June 2, 2011
Zamboni,
Thanks for clearing that up, I was afraid I'd breeched some (unknown) protocol.
-
posted by primdehuit at 1:55 PM on June 2, 2011
Thanks for clearing that up, I was afraid I'd breeched some (unknown) protocol.
-
posted by primdehuit at 1:55 PM on June 2, 2011
For spy-gadgetry I prefer the Henry AR-7. It fits into its own stock
And was featured in Thunderball, though not mentioned by name in the movie. I think it's just called a sniper rifle.
posted by bonehead at 1:57 PM on June 2, 2011
And was featured in Thunderball, though not mentioned by name in the movie. I think it's just called a sniper rifle.
posted by bonehead at 1:57 PM on June 2, 2011
> PS I know I gotta lot to learn, but I figure the bottom of the thread is the best place to ask.
Also, though signing your posts is not done very often there's nothing at all wrong with it. Whatever floats your boat.
posted by jfuller at 1:58 PM on June 2, 2011
Also, though signing your posts is not done very often there's nothing at all wrong with it. Whatever floats your boat.
posted by jfuller at 1:58 PM on June 2, 2011
The page primdehuit mentioned earlier on Bond guns is actually a set of three pages starting here.
posted by exogenous at 1:59 PM on June 2, 2011
posted by exogenous at 1:59 PM on June 2, 2011
Jfuller,
It (post signing- to me), is a very old habit- been on the net since -81, PDP-11 mainframes, etc.
:-{){{ hairy old unix dude.
Just signifying,
-
posted by primdehuit at 2:03 PM on June 2, 2011
It (post signing- to me), is a very old habit- been on the net since -81, PDP-11 mainframes, etc.
:-{){{ hairy old unix dude.
Just signifying,
-
posted by primdehuit at 2:03 PM on June 2, 2011
That'd be the Downsizer WSP, available in .357 and .45.
Your link refers to it as a "single-shot revolver." In what sense is a single shot pistol a revolver? Is that a misnomer or is there something interesting going on there that I don't understand?
posted by Naberius at 2:05 PM on June 2, 2011
Your link refers to it as a "single-shot revolver." In what sense is a single shot pistol a revolver? Is that a misnomer or is there something interesting going on there that I don't understand?
posted by Naberius at 2:05 PM on June 2, 2011
I miss in-message sigs. I got out of the habit when a few web-board admins started permabanning people who signed their posts, which still strikes me as being stupid and arbitrary and raises all kinds of grar-hackles to this day.
posted by Slap*Happy at 2:10 PM on June 2, 2011
posted by Slap*Happy at 2:10 PM on June 2, 2011
Spot on,
Oxymoron if I ever heard one. A Single-Shot handgun is what I'd refer to it as. Pistol in English refers to semi-autos, at least among gun folks. Revolvers are wheel-guns. Single shots like the Thomson or even earlier, I think should be, (and usually are) referred to as single-shot hanguns.
-
posted by primdehuit at 2:13 PM on June 2, 2011
Oxymoron if I ever heard one. A Single-Shot handgun is what I'd refer to it as. Pistol in English refers to semi-autos, at least among gun folks. Revolvers are wheel-guns. Single shots like the Thomson or even earlier, I think should be, (and usually are) referred to as single-shot hanguns.
-
posted by primdehuit at 2:13 PM on June 2, 2011
"Is that a lady's gun, Mr Wint?"
"Oh you bitch, Mr Kidd!"
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 2:14 PM on June 2, 2011 [1 favorite]
"Oh you bitch, Mr Kidd!"
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 2:14 PM on June 2, 2011 [1 favorite]
jfuller writes "Also, though signing your posts is not done very often there's nothing at all wrong with it. Whatever floats your boat."
Every single comment has your name attached already. Additional signing is wasted effort that does nothing but clutter up the page and is pretty well universally not done here to the point that doing so is an injoke.
posted by Mitheral at 2:28 PM on June 2, 2011 [2 favorites]
Every single comment has your name attached already. Additional signing is wasted effort that does nothing but clutter up the page and is pretty well universally not done here to the point that doing so is an injoke.
posted by Mitheral at 2:28 PM on June 2, 2011 [2 favorites]
You do know that Artw is British,
*record scratch*
No. No I did not know that. But I will now imagine everything he says in the accent of a Dickensian street urchin.
Regardless of whether or not it's true.
posted by quin at 2:48 PM on June 2, 2011 [1 favorite]
*record scratch*
No. No I did not know that. But I will now imagine everything he says in the accent of a Dickensian street urchin.
Regardless of whether or not it's true.
posted by quin at 2:48 PM on June 2, 2011 [1 favorite]
There aren't any handgun eccentrics in the UK anymore, charming or otherwise, because the vast majority of handguns are illegal to possess in the UK.
Almost true, but not quite. I was a member of a pistol club at university (I was after a sport that didn't involve much in the way of actual movement...), and we mostly shot air pistols (the Steyr LP5, which takes a 5-pellet magazine), but every now and again we'd go off to the National Shooting Centre at Bisley for a training day with actual firearms.
Although these were generally small-calibre lightweight rifles such as .22 lightweight sport rifles and .38 gallery rifles, we did see people shooting the one type of handgun it is legal to own in the UK nowadays, the muzzle-loading revolver. These are presumably still legal because no-one is seriously going to go to the effort of acquiring and maintaining the various bits required to use one (it uses black powder, for goodness' sake) and then hold up a bank with it.
As for the eccentrics...boy howdy, we had a few of those. The reason I eventually stopped going along to the club (and probably got myself put on several government watchlists by not telling anyone I was leaving) was after a club dinner where we had former members along, who would tell us with misty eyes about the times they'd walked through the town centre with six pistols stuffed in their waistbands because they needed to transport them to someone's house, or the times they'd stayed up late at night firing .44 revolvers into someone's fireplace. And then they would go all miserable and steely and lament the nanny state that wouldn't let them do that any more, and complain about the terrible hassle of having people come out and inspect their weaponry and make sure it was stored securely.
Yeah, it wasn't long before I decided that fun though the sport was, these were not my people.
posted by ZsigE at 3:30 PM on June 2, 2011 [2 favorites]
Almost true, but not quite. I was a member of a pistol club at university (I was after a sport that didn't involve much in the way of actual movement...), and we mostly shot air pistols (the Steyr LP5, which takes a 5-pellet magazine), but every now and again we'd go off to the National Shooting Centre at Bisley for a training day with actual firearms.
Although these were generally small-calibre lightweight rifles such as .22 lightweight sport rifles and .38 gallery rifles, we did see people shooting the one type of handgun it is legal to own in the UK nowadays, the muzzle-loading revolver. These are presumably still legal because no-one is seriously going to go to the effort of acquiring and maintaining the various bits required to use one (it uses black powder, for goodness' sake) and then hold up a bank with it.
As for the eccentrics...boy howdy, we had a few of those. The reason I eventually stopped going along to the club (and probably got myself put on several government watchlists by not telling anyone I was leaving) was after a club dinner where we had former members along, who would tell us with misty eyes about the times they'd walked through the town centre with six pistols stuffed in their waistbands because they needed to transport them to someone's house, or the times they'd stayed up late at night firing .44 revolvers into someone's fireplace. And then they would go all miserable and steely and lament the nanny state that wouldn't let them do that any more, and complain about the terrible hassle of having people come out and inspect their weaponry and make sure it was stored securely.
Yeah, it wasn't long before I decided that fun though the sport was, these were not my people.
posted by ZsigE at 3:30 PM on June 2, 2011 [2 favorites]
jedicus: There is at least one revolver that can be silenced but Bond wouldn't have ever used it. Would have been a good gun for a bad guy though.
posted by Grimgrin at 4:11 PM on June 2, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by Grimgrin at 4:11 PM on June 2, 2011 [1 favorite]
> I got out of the habit when a few web-board admins started permabanning people who
> signed their posts, which still strikes me as being stupid and arbitrary and raises all kinds
> of grar-hackles to this day.
It makes perfectly good sense...if you're running your dialup BBS on an 8088 and keeping your message base on a 5 MB drive. Otherwise not so much.
posted by jfuller at 5:47 PM on June 2, 2011
> signed their posts, which still strikes me as being stupid and arbitrary and raises all kinds
> of grar-hackles to this day.
It makes perfectly good sense...if you're running your dialup BBS on an 8088 and keeping your message base on a 5 MB drive. Otherwise not so much.
posted by jfuller at 5:47 PM on June 2, 2011
Xoebe: "Yeah, I have never been a fan of semi-automatics for concealed weapons. The advantage of the semi automatic is its magazine capacity, but for defense, you don't want to load the magazine to full capacity anyway, it can weaken the spring and lead to jamming."
Agreed. When firing at a range I only load five rounds into any magazine. No need to stress the spring when you have all the time in the world to reload.
posted by Splunge at 6:23 PM on June 2, 2011
Agreed. When firing at a range I only load five rounds into any magazine. No need to stress the spring when you have all the time in the world to reload.
posted by Splunge at 6:23 PM on June 2, 2011
Other than that, you never know when a bear may be lurking close by. Watch out for men with beards wearing flannel and Carhartts and workboots who seem overly friendly.
Damnit, I KNEW that was a gay lumberyard!
posted by The 10th Regiment of Foot at 7:27 PM on June 2, 2011 [1 favorite]
Damnit, I KNEW that was a gay lumberyard!
posted by The 10th Regiment of Foot at 7:27 PM on June 2, 2011 [1 favorite]
How's the veal? Hmmm? Just asking.
posted by Splunge at 9:12 PM on June 2, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by Splunge at 9:12 PM on June 2, 2011 [1 favorite]
But seriously,
How can you really know in a place like Alaska, where this is the normal plumage?
posted by primdehuit at 10:19 PM on June 2, 2011
How can you really know in a place like Alaska, where this is the normal plumage?
posted by primdehuit at 10:19 PM on June 2, 2011
They order red wine with fish.
posted by Artw at 10:29 PM on June 2, 2011 [4 favorites]
posted by Artw at 10:29 PM on June 2, 2011 [4 favorites]
How can you really know in a place like Alaska
Do you need to know in a place that has a majority men working long, lonely hours in gold mines, fishing trawlers, oil platforms, and remote lumber camps with only the comfort of each other's bulging, flannel clad, hirsuit bodies to keep them warm against the howl of the north wind?
posted by The 10th Regiment of Foot at 6:47 AM on June 3, 2011 [1 favorite]
Do you need to know in a place that has a majority men working long, lonely hours in gold mines, fishing trawlers, oil platforms, and remote lumber camps with only the comfort of each other's bulging, flannel clad, hirsuit bodies to keep them warm against the howl of the north wind?
posted by The 10th Regiment of Foot at 6:47 AM on June 3, 2011 [1 favorite]
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