Federal gestapo illegally raid Gibson Guitar factories.
September 4, 2011 5:04 AM Subscribe
Armed federal agents have illegally raided Gibson Guitar factories and arbitrarily confiscate millions of dollars worth of wood used to make instruments. Though federal officials have ordered that Gibson stop manufacturing and selling guitars, the CEO Henry Juszkiewicz has instructed his employees to continue operations, indicating that he alone will take personal responsibility for any potential repercussions. Ceasing production indefinitely at the arbitrary command of federal officials, especially without a valid reason, would destroy Gibson Guitars Corp. Watch a 30 minute press conference here.
This post was deleted for the following reason: Editorializing -- mathowie
It really sounds like there's another side to this story and that link can obviously not be trusted to report it.
posted by DU at 5:10 AM on September 4, 2011 [9 favorites]
posted by DU at 5:10 AM on September 4, 2011 [9 favorites]
A bit more balanced report on this.
posted by tomswift at 5:11 AM on September 4, 2011 [11 favorites]
posted by tomswift at 5:11 AM on September 4, 2011 [11 favorites]
I wonder how ThenCameNow feels about this?
posted by muddgirl at 5:12 AM on September 4, 2011 [3 favorites]
posted by muddgirl at 5:12 AM on September 4, 2011 [3 favorites]
For the second time in two years, armed federal agents have illegally raided the manufacturing facilities of Gibson Guitars Corp., this time confiscating more than a million dollars worth of imported wood and ebony -- and they did so without proper notice or warning, without any valid reason, and without lawful charges of any kind.
OK, I can't speak to the "illegal" and "valid reasons" part of this, but isn't the point of a raid to do it without warning? We get mad at the idea of announced inspections, for example, giving malefactors a chance to clean up....
posted by GenjiandProust at 5:12 AM on September 4, 2011
OK, I can't speak to the "illegal" and "valid reasons" part of this, but isn't the point of a raid to do it without warning? We get mad at the idea of announced inspections, for example, giving malefactors a chance to clean up....
posted by GenjiandProust at 5:12 AM on September 4, 2011
Ooh, "Federal Gestapo"!! Such reporting! Thanks for the NPR link, tomswift.
posted by NoMich at 5:14 AM on September 4, 2011
posted by NoMich at 5:14 AM on September 4, 2011
Wake up, America! Your government wants your guitars so that only they can rock!
posted by stinkycheese at 5:15 AM on September 4, 2011 [7 favorites]
posted by stinkycheese at 5:15 AM on September 4, 2011 [7 favorites]
GOOGLE LES PAUL!
posted by muddgirl at 5:16 AM on September 4, 2011 [66 favorites]
posted by muddgirl at 5:16 AM on September 4, 2011 [66 favorites]
How would an unarmed agent do a raid? Would he open the door with his feet?
posted by tomswift at 5:17 AM on September 4, 2011
posted by tomswift at 5:17 AM on September 4, 2011
This is a pressing issue, but the links in this post suck and the editorial spin is so tight it's making me dizzy.
From another article I read a few days ago Gibson may actually be accidentally or intentionally guilty of importing banned hardwoods. Like banned animal product trades the whole exotic hardwood market is a massive shell game of a chain of import-export countries and companies anyway.
In any case, why is any old growth hardwood acceptable to use for this kind of thing? I know ebony makes a damn fine guitar fretboard and a pretty one at that, but I bet we can come up with a synthetic variant that exceeds the performance and consistency of wood. How about a hemp fiber and hemp-oil organic composite plastic or something? Carbon fiber? Comon' now.
Yeah, yeah, there's an impressive science behind wood in stringed instruments, but all that matched bookend flame-top veneer stuff and exotic hardwood inlay or laminate stringer work is pure vanity, especially on solid-body guitars.
I really don't have a lot of sympathy for Gibson no matter how nice a guitar they make and how ethically sourced their exotic woods are. They're still cutting down trees.
posted by loquacious at 5:18 AM on September 4, 2011 [1 favorite]
From another article I read a few days ago Gibson may actually be accidentally or intentionally guilty of importing banned hardwoods. Like banned animal product trades the whole exotic hardwood market is a massive shell game of a chain of import-export countries and companies anyway.
In any case, why is any old growth hardwood acceptable to use for this kind of thing? I know ebony makes a damn fine guitar fretboard and a pretty one at that, but I bet we can come up with a synthetic variant that exceeds the performance and consistency of wood. How about a hemp fiber and hemp-oil organic composite plastic or something? Carbon fiber? Comon' now.
Yeah, yeah, there's an impressive science behind wood in stringed instruments, but all that matched bookend flame-top veneer stuff and exotic hardwood inlay or laminate stringer work is pure vanity, especially on solid-body guitars.
I really don't have a lot of sympathy for Gibson no matter how nice a guitar they make and how ethically sourced their exotic woods are. They're still cutting down trees.
posted by loquacious at 5:18 AM on September 4, 2011 [1 favorite]
I read about this elsewhere. The issue is whether Gibson is importing protected tropical woods. Gibson has been a bit coy as to whether or not their wood supply is legit.
I find it hilarious that the story expects the Feds to give a warning before they raid a factory suspected of using banned materials.
posted by Thorzdad at 5:19 AM on September 4, 2011
I find it hilarious that the story expects the Feds to give a warning before they raid a factory suspected of using banned materials.
posted by Thorzdad at 5:19 AM on September 4, 2011
I like how your totally balanced post omits the point that they may have been using (actually) illegal tropical hardwoods.
Oh no, wait, not like. The other thing. Way to editorialise.
posted by Happy Dave at 5:19 AM on September 4, 2011 [1 favorite]
Oh no, wait, not like. The other thing. Way to editorialise.
posted by Happy Dave at 5:19 AM on September 4, 2011 [1 favorite]
I totally favorited this post because I was trying to flag it but accidentally clicked the wrong thing.
posted by Joey Michaels at 5:21 AM on September 4, 2011
posted by Joey Michaels at 5:21 AM on September 4, 2011
I have arbitrarily confiscated this post, without reason.
posted by FreezBoy at 5:23 AM on September 4, 2011
posted by FreezBoy at 5:23 AM on September 4, 2011
You know who else was called Hitler?
posted by Purposeful Grimace at 5:30 AM on September 4, 2011 [2 favorites]
posted by Purposeful Grimace at 5:30 AM on September 4, 2011 [2 favorites]
I understand that, once they find their arms, they are going after that old Paul McCartney and Stevie Wonder song.
posted by tomswift at 5:30 AM on September 4, 2011
posted by tomswift at 5:30 AM on September 4, 2011
You know who else was called Hitler?
Hitler?
posted by Joey Michaels at 5:30 AM on September 4, 2011 [1 favorite]
Hitler?
posted by Joey Michaels at 5:30 AM on September 4, 2011 [1 favorite]
Troubling news indeed.
posted by Meatafoecure at 5:33 AM on September 4, 2011
posted by Meatafoecure at 5:33 AM on September 4, 2011
Gestapo, illegally, arbitrary, without a valid reason
nice
posted by nathancaswell at 5:33 AM on September 4, 2011
nice
posted by nathancaswell at 5:33 AM on September 4, 2011
You know who else was called Hitler?
His infinitely more evil younger brother Gibson Hitler?
posted by Ahab at 5:34 AM on September 4, 2011 [1 favorite]
His infinitely more evil younger brother Gibson Hitler?
posted by Ahab at 5:34 AM on September 4, 2011 [1 favorite]
Goodness. This is maybe the worst linked article on a topic, ever. "Heavy hand of an out-of-control government" is my favorite phrase so far.
posted by hippybear at 5:36 AM on September 4, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by hippybear at 5:36 AM on September 4, 2011 [1 favorite]
You know who else was called Hitler?
Stephen Colbert?
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 5:36 AM on September 4, 2011
Stephen Colbert?
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 5:36 AM on September 4, 2011
Also, you'd think a news organization with the tagline "natural health, natural living, natural news" would care more about a Big Corporation suspected of cutting down rare, protected tropical trees to make guitars out of.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 5:39 AM on September 4, 2011
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 5:39 AM on September 4, 2011
Slightly less emotional article from the Calgary Herald.
Ideally, this wood would be grown, harvested and processed sustainably; wood is, if taken care of, a renewable resource and a truly wonderful material for all sorts of uses.
posted by jb at 5:39 AM on September 4, 2011 [1 favorite]
Ideally, this wood would be grown, harvested and processed sustainably; wood is, if taken care of, a renewable resource and a truly wonderful material for all sorts of uses.
posted by jb at 5:39 AM on September 4, 2011 [1 favorite]
Before anyone starts getting all righteous about trees, understand that the gov't has offered them a deal where they can get all charges dropped if they outsource the work to Madagascar or something. The problem is not importing rare hardwoods, they have been doing that for years. The problem is that Gibson is having American workers finish the hardwood boards shipped in from India in a half-finished state. This isn't about trees, its about politics, and Gibson can make its guitars in any manner they want to, as far as I am concerned.
posted by midnightscout at 5:43 AM on September 4, 2011
posted by midnightscout at 5:43 AM on September 4, 2011
Waitaminnit midnightscout, you're saying the US government is offering them immunity if the get rid of American jobs and outsource them? Cite?
posted by Purposeful Grimace at 5:48 AM on September 4, 2011
posted by Purposeful Grimace at 5:48 AM on September 4, 2011
I really don't have a lot of sympathy for Gibson no matter how nice a guitar they make and how ethically sourced their exotic woods are. They're still cutting down trees.
It's okay to cut down trees, loquacious, as long as it's done carefully. They do grow back. It's very much a renewable resource. It just has to be managed properly, and that's what the laws are trying to ensure.
It does sound like the Federales have overstepped here, wildly breathless article or no -- how can you justify shutting down a business and confiscating inventory without even telling someone why, or filing charges?
posted by Malor at 5:49 AM on September 4, 2011
It's okay to cut down trees, loquacious, as long as it's done carefully. They do grow back. It's very much a renewable resource. It just has to be managed properly, and that's what the laws are trying to ensure.
It does sound like the Federales have overstepped here, wildly breathless article or no -- how can you justify shutting down a business and confiscating inventory without even telling someone why, or filing charges?
posted by Malor at 5:49 AM on September 4, 2011
I bet we can come up with a synthetic variant that exceeds the performance and consistency of wood
They've been working on synthetic materials to substitute for wood in musical instruments for years, but it's not as easy as you'd think. There are qualities to wood which are difficult to match, the primary one being the way wood changes over time when it's incorporated into a musical instrument.
I'm sure huge improvements have been made in such materials since I was last really up on the subject, some 20 years ago...
This is an interesting pdf which suggests that high quality wood isn't the major factor in quality guitar making, but rather the skill of the luthier which matters most.
And apparently some people are striving very diligently to find quality composites for instrument making. (another pdf)
It looks like a fascinating subject, and one which I'm lacking the ambition to fully research at the moment.
posted by hippybear at 5:49 AM on September 4, 2011 [1 favorite]
They've been working on synthetic materials to substitute for wood in musical instruments for years, but it's not as easy as you'd think. There are qualities to wood which are difficult to match, the primary one being the way wood changes over time when it's incorporated into a musical instrument.
I'm sure huge improvements have been made in such materials since I was last really up on the subject, some 20 years ago...
This is an interesting pdf which suggests that high quality wood isn't the major factor in quality guitar making, but rather the skill of the luthier which matters most.
And apparently some people are striving very diligently to find quality composites for instrument making. (another pdf)
It looks like a fascinating subject, and one which I'm lacking the ambition to fully research at the moment.
posted by hippybear at 5:49 AM on September 4, 2011 [1 favorite]
Maybe you could use the axe you are grinding in this post to cut down some more trees?
posted by unSane at 5:49 AM on September 4, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by unSane at 5:49 AM on September 4, 2011 [1 favorite]
Will i get to see the big red box if I'm browsing on my phone? I'm so excited.
posted by snapped at 5:51 AM on September 4, 2011
posted by snapped at 5:51 AM on September 4, 2011
Oh, this may be what midnightscout is referring to:
So what did Gibson do wrong? According to the company, the U.S. Justice Department indicated that the wood was confiscated because it was not finished by Indian workers, in violation of the department's interpretation of Indian law. In other words, the tree may have been harvested in India, but shipped elsewhere to be fashioned into blank fretboards. But the Indian government, Gibson says, never complained.
Apparently, paying American workers to finish the wood is illegal.
posted by Malor at 5:53 AM on September 4, 2011
So what did Gibson do wrong? According to the company, the U.S. Justice Department indicated that the wood was confiscated because it was not finished by Indian workers, in violation of the department's interpretation of Indian law. In other words, the tree may have been harvested in India, but shipped elsewhere to be fashioned into blank fretboards. But the Indian government, Gibson says, never complained.
Apparently, paying American workers to finish the wood is illegal.
posted by Malor at 5:53 AM on September 4, 2011
Cite?
The Herald article paraphrases Gibson's people as saying that the raid was done because Gibson important unfinished flats from India and assembled them in-house, in what the feds believe is a violation of Indian law. There's no comment from the DOJ on this, and it's completely absent from the NPR article, which was published four days later, so I'm not sure how much credibility to give even the underlying issue, never mind the totally unsourced "deal" offer.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 5:53 AM on September 4, 2011
The Herald article paraphrases Gibson's people as saying that the raid was done because Gibson important unfinished flats from India and assembled them in-house, in what the feds believe is a violation of Indian law. There's no comment from the DOJ on this, and it's completely absent from the NPR article, which was published four days later, so I'm not sure how much credibility to give even the underlying issue, never mind the totally unsourced "deal" offer.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 5:53 AM on September 4, 2011
There is a staggering amount of voodoo in the kinds of woods guitar makers use. American makers like Gibson and Fender are in a nasty bind because people want facsimiles of the models they were making in the 50s/60s/70s, and if they don't use the same wood people feel they are inauthentic. But the truth is the kind of wood used in an electric guitar makes very little difference to the sound, given that it has a similar density and stiffness.
Acoustic guitars are much more sensitive to the kinds of woods used but again the problem for makers like Gibson is that their target market does not want them to innovate. It's as if Chevy had to keep making those boats from the 50s while still meeting current safety guidelines.
posted by unSane at 5:53 AM on September 4, 2011 [2 favorites]
Acoustic guitars are much more sensitive to the kinds of woods used but again the problem for makers like Gibson is that their target market does not want them to innovate. It's as if Chevy had to keep making those boats from the 50s while still meeting current safety guidelines.
posted by unSane at 5:53 AM on September 4, 2011 [2 favorites]
The problem is not importing rare hardwoods, they have been doing that for years. The problem is that Gibson is having American workers finish the hardwood boards shipped in from India in a half-finished state. This isn't about trees, its about politics
Where did you get that notion from? Both articles, the paranoid rant AND the NPR piece, make it clear that even legacy guitars may fall under the Lacey Act when resold or when coming back into the country from travel abroad.
That's all about the wood, and nothing about jobs. In fact, "jobs" (the word) doesn't appear one in either article.
posted by hippybear at 5:53 AM on September 4, 2011
Where did you get that notion from? Both articles, the paranoid rant AND the NPR piece, make it clear that even legacy guitars may fall under the Lacey Act when resold or when coming back into the country from travel abroad.
That's all about the wood, and nothing about jobs. In fact, "jobs" (the word) doesn't appear one in either article.
posted by hippybear at 5:53 AM on September 4, 2011
this gives a much better background - basically, they've been dealing with some fairly questionable people overseas and it's made the provenance of some of their wood questionable
posted by pyramid termite at 5:54 AM on September 4, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by pyramid termite at 5:54 AM on September 4, 2011 [1 favorite]
It's Sunday morning on a holiday weekend, that red box may be a while showing up. Anyone wanna place a bet? I'll take 9:32am est.
posted by tomswift at 5:55 AM on September 4, 2011
posted by tomswift at 5:55 AM on September 4, 2011
Part of me wishes this post didn't have to get deleted, so muddgirl's comment could get all the favorites it deserves. The rest of me wants to see this turd off the front page ASAP.
posted by Horace Rumpole at 5:56 AM on September 4, 2011
posted by Horace Rumpole at 5:56 AM on September 4, 2011
I dunno, I sent jessamyn a gift card to that new brunch place, Le Bottle du Chloroform. Might want to move that bet to noonish.
posted by Purposeful Grimace at 5:58 AM on September 4, 2011
posted by Purposeful Grimace at 5:58 AM on September 4, 2011
isn't that next to mickey's bar?
posted by pyramid termite at 6:00 AM on September 4, 2011
posted by pyramid termite at 6:00 AM on September 4, 2011
They should do Zildjian next. I don't have any real evidence, but an $800 snare drum has gotta be made of some rare-earth endangered shit.
posted by tumid dahlia at 6:02 AM on September 4, 2011
posted by tumid dahlia at 6:02 AM on September 4, 2011
These are the times at which, I wish President Obama would intervene and veto.
Since the wood mostly has already been harvested, why disrupt at this stage of the production?
Is halting the production of the instrument makers really going to keep the government trading policies in check?
posted by Meatafoecure at 6:02 AM on September 4, 2011
Since the wood mostly has already been harvested, why disrupt at this stage of the production?
Is halting the production of the instrument makers really going to keep the government trading policies in check?
posted by Meatafoecure at 6:02 AM on September 4, 2011
Brazilian Rosewood is probably the wood in question. And oh by the way, it wouldn't even be endangered if Brazil stopped allowing farmers to clear old forests. Our insatiable appetite for burgers is destroying the music instrument industry.
posted by Civil_Disobedient at 6:04 AM on September 4, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by Civil_Disobedient at 6:04 AM on September 4, 2011 [1 favorite]
Since the wood mostly has already been harvested, why disrupt at this stage of the production?
"Whoa whoa whoa, hey there, buddy, that's some protected wood you got there. It's illegal to harvest and import. What's that? Well, yeah, I guess you have already chopped it down. Okay, so, carry on, but just watch yourself next time!"
posted by tumid dahlia at 6:05 AM on September 4, 2011 [1 favorite]
"Whoa whoa whoa, hey there, buddy, that's some protected wood you got there. It's illegal to harvest and import. What's that? Well, yeah, I guess you have already chopped it down. Okay, so, carry on, but just watch yourself next time!"
posted by tumid dahlia at 6:05 AM on September 4, 2011 [1 favorite]
Daniels asked, “Did an agent of the US government suggest to you that your problems would go away if you used Madagascar labor instead of American labor?”
Juszkiewicz responded, “They actually wrote that in a pleading.”
http://www.examiner.com/conservative-in-national/gibson-ceo-drops-bombshell-feds-told-company-to-use-madagascar-labor
For the second time in two years, armed federal agents have illegally raided the manufacturing facilities of Gibson Guitars Corp., this time confiscating more than a million dollars worth of imported wood and ebony -- and they did so without proper notice or warning, without any valid reason, and without lawful charges of any kind.
http://www.naturalnews.com/033454_Gibson_Guitar_armed_raid.html
No US laws have been broken. None of these people give a damn about the trees, except Gibson that was using wood approved for export by Indian officals.
posted by midnightscout at 6:05 AM on September 4, 2011
Juszkiewicz responded, “They actually wrote that in a pleading.”
http://www.examiner.com/conservative-in-national/gibson-ceo-drops-bombshell-feds-told-company-to-use-madagascar-labor
For the second time in two years, armed federal agents have illegally raided the manufacturing facilities of Gibson Guitars Corp., this time confiscating more than a million dollars worth of imported wood and ebony -- and they did so without proper notice or warning, without any valid reason, and without lawful charges of any kind.
http://www.naturalnews.com/033454_Gibson_Guitar_armed_raid.html
No US laws have been broken. None of these people give a damn about the trees, except Gibson that was using wood approved for export by Indian officals.
posted by midnightscout at 6:05 AM on September 4, 2011
"Whoa whoa whoa, hey there, buddy, that's some protected wood you got there. It's illegal to harvest and import. What's that? Well, yeah, I guess you have already chopped it down. Okay, so, carry on, but just watch yourself next time!"
My brain read this in the voice of a police officer from Ren & Stimpy.
posted by hippybear at 6:06 AM on September 4, 2011
My brain read this in the voice of a police officer from Ren & Stimpy.
posted by hippybear at 6:06 AM on September 4, 2011
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