GLOOMCAMPING

September 15, 2014 1:57 PM

The SummHarry, all the Harry Potter books summarized in cartoon form by Lucy "Stop Paying Attention" Knisley. Full size; previously on the blue.
posted by Halloween Jack (47 comments total)

ADORABLE

(Lucy Knisley is a treasure)
posted by Kitteh at 2:09 PM on September 15, 2014 [1 favorite]

Yesss, these are so good.

Was on a date yesterday, Mexican Independence Day, and I started talking about the whole Scottish independence thing that's happening now. This turned into me throwing down some srs trivia knowledge about how unicorns are the national animal of Scotland, and how maybe if Scotland becomes a real, independent country if it'll make unicorns real animals, too, or maybe that they'll have to pick a legit animal to be their national animal. And then THIS turned into me thinking OH MY GOD, how will Scottish sovereignty affect Hogwarts? Because I don't know if it's stated in the books, but it's clear that Hogwarts is up nebulously north-ish in Britain, so maybe Scotland? But it's clearly overseen by the Ministry of Magic, so if it's technically located in Scotland now does the Ministry still have oversight over Hogwarts? Would wee British wizards still be able to attend? Is it like a public schooling deal? Does Ireland have its own wizarding school? They have their own quidditch team. Do wizard kids from Northern Ireland go to Hogwarts? What is the political situation at Hogwarts right now?

And I just sort of talked at myself for a good 5-7 minutes about this, looked up, and date's eyes had sort of glazed over, and I was like "well, what do you think?" and he was like "um I've only seen one of the movies, I don't really...hey have you seen Game of Thrones?"
posted by phunniemee at 2:16 PM on September 15, 2014 [37 favorites]

Basically, phunniemee, I am totally going to make my husband listen to me when I bring up your Hogwarts concerns. (Because yeah, isn't Hogwarts pretty much in Scotland?)
posted by Kitteh at 2:21 PM on September 15, 2014 [1 favorite]

Hogwarts is definitely in Scotland.

But I don't see why the Ministry of Magic should follow national borders. Sure, covering the island makes sense in a sort of natural border kind of thing, but why would they bother now?

Of course this brings up questions like how the magical governments worked in Germany before and after reunification and what happened in the USSR when it broke up and -- well, I guess I would have bored your date, too.
posted by jeather at 2:22 PM on September 15, 2014 [5 favorites]

(Also Ursula Vernon just wrote HP fanfiction. About the founding of Hogwarts, and it is great.)
posted by jeather at 2:23 PM on September 15, 2014 [4 favorites]

phunniemee + jeather = <3
posted by Sara C. at 2:26 PM on September 15, 2014 [2 favorites]

Furthermore, is the Floo Network restricted to domestic travel, or can it potentially be used internationally? Do other countries have their own Floo Networks? The technology magic depends on the wide availability of fireplaces (which are rare in warm regions), so I wonder if Northern Europe's apparent dominance in the wizarding world could be partially attributed to this efficient system of transportation.
posted by theodolite at 2:27 PM on September 15, 2014 [2 favorites]

Voldemort dies?
George R. R. Martin has taken it too far.
Fuck.
posted by Foci for Analysis at 2:30 PM on September 15, 2014 [2 favorites]

I always figured that Hogwarts was in the vicinity of Northampton, because of the proximity of a notable wizard; see also this compared to this. Ah, but you're saying, what about a certain controversial treatment of [a certain character] in LoEG: Century 2009? Misdirection!
posted by Halloween Jack at 2:30 PM on September 15, 2014 [1 favorite]

Furthermore, is the Floo Network restricted to domestic travel, or can it potentially be used internationally?

I've always wondered how travel works. Didn't the Weasleys blow all their prize money on the trip to Egypt? How expensive can it possibly be to travel to Egypt? YOU'RE FUCKING WIZARDS, PORTKEY THAT SHIT.
posted by phunniemee at 2:31 PM on September 15, 2014 [13 favorites]

I wonder why we don't have apparateports, where people can go from country to country. It seems you need to apparate somewhere you can imagine, but it would be easy enough to imagine each country with a similar port with one distinctive feature. I should check up how portkeys were described as working during the Quidditch World Cup.

But really the question of how Hogwarts would function in an independent Scotland is something that should be answered before the referendum.
posted by jeather at 2:32 PM on September 15, 2014 [5 favorites]

Just to derail this with a comment that's actually about Lucy Knisley. I'm very fond of the one with all the Wonder Wimmin, what with WW being my favorite superhero and all. Also, props to any artist with the balls to put up ginormous copies of his or her stuff.
posted by jfuller at 2:34 PM on September 15, 2014 [1 favorite]

see also this compared to this

Look, we all know that Hagrid is actually the estranged brother of Dr. Vink (with a vvv, vvv, vvv!), showing what horrible things can happen when you let your demented little brother drop out of magic school and run away to Canada.
posted by phunniemee at 2:35 PM on September 15, 2014 [3 favorites]

My understanding is that Seamus Finnegan is Irish and that the age-old school probably a.) doesn't care that much about Muggle political boundaries (Draco makes reference at one point to how he could have gone to Durmstrang and that would have been better for him, but that is Draco) and b.) would be unlikely to shift admissions standards based on the whims of said Muggles.

And yes, Hogwarts is most definitely in Scotland.
posted by Navelgazer at 2:40 PM on September 15, 2014

Does that mean the Hogwarts Express is going to have to go through Immigration now? Will owls be allowed through Customs?
posted by Sara C. at 2:46 PM on September 15, 2014 [1 favorite]

Dear JK, I want to see a political history of the Ministry and Hogwarts. There is a market for this. All nine of us in this thread. Thank you.
posted by phunniemee at 2:51 PM on September 15, 2014 [8 favorites]

How expensive can it possibly be to travel to Egypt?

I assumed the cost was due to lodgings, guides and food.
posted by jeather at 2:52 PM on September 15, 2014 [1 favorite]

They could have traveled by plane or boat, Arthur Weasley is fascinated by all things muggle. I could see him wanting to try it.
posted by troika at 3:00 PM on September 15, 2014

Wow. It took me like a half-hour to find Waldo.
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 3:07 PM on September 15, 2014 [1 favorite]

oh no this is the best thread
posted by poffin boffin at 3:21 PM on September 15, 2014 [2 favorites]

Yup, just as incomprehensible as ever.

Yeah, I saw the films.

No, I didn't read the books. What am I, ten?
posted by tspae at 3:49 PM on September 15, 2014

Oh, we're all ten here...
posted by Navelgazer at 3:51 PM on September 15, 2014 [3 favorites]

oh no guys we have to close up this thread now because A GROWN UP is here
posted by poffin boffin at 3:57 PM on September 15, 2014 [10 favorites]

Grown-ups are lame all they talk about is mortgages and why I have to do my homework and why we can't go to Disneyworld this weekend even though I've been soooooo good I swear!
posted by Navelgazer at 4:07 PM on September 15, 2014 [3 favorites]

I want this on my wall.
posted by PugAchev at 4:28 PM on September 15, 2014 [1 favorite]

Hogwarts is certainly in Scotland. As you'll recall, the flying Ford Anglia, closely following the route of the Hogwarts Express, passes over Peebles (Chamber of Secrets, Chapter 5.)

Now, as we all know, the Hogwarts Express travels at a speed that lets it pass Norfolk about an hour after leaving London (Chamber of Secrets, Chapter 5.) It leaves at 11 AM (Philosopher's Stone, Chapter 6, and Prisoner of Azkaban, Chapter 1) and arrives just after nightfall (Philosopher's Stone, Chapter 6, and Half-Blood Prince, Chapter 7). With that speed and journey length, this still leaves a number of possible locations in Scotland.

We can probably rule out Caithness and Sutherland because the landscape only starts getting wild about half an hour before Hogwarts (Half-Blood Prince, Chapter 7). The Buchan area is too flat, since Hogwarts is in a mountainous region (Philosopher's Stone, Chapter 6). And the weather at Hogwarts doesn't really fit the Grampians or Cairngorms -- and we can safely ignore the claim made in the film version of Prisoner of Azkaban that the school is near Dufftown, that's not in the book and honestly it makes no sense. Plus, since there's a beech tree already in leaf at Hogwarts at the end of March (Philosopher's Stone, Chapter 13), that suggests Hogwarts is in the west of Scotland. The Forbidden Forest contains deciduous trees (Philosopher's Stone, Chapter 15, Chamber of Secrets, Chapter 15, Order of The Phoenix, Chapter 21), which could indicate Galloway. But Galloway is awfully far south given the journey length. The map of Argyll on the second floor wall (Prisoner of Azkaban, Chapter 9), may suggest the West Highlands, and there are fairly some fairly warm microclimates in the West Highlands, because of the Gulf Stream.

Logically, it's therefore most likely just north of Kintail.
posted by kyrademon at 4:39 PM on September 15, 2014 [93 favorites]

[Flagged as fantastic comment]
posted by donajo at 4:44 PM on September 15, 2014

Now, as far as the Ministry of Magic goes, even if you discount their connections with the Prime Minister (Half-Blood Prince, Chapter 1) as inconclusive in and of itself, it's clearly a British organization, since the Ministry's Department of International Magical Cooperation includes the British seats of the International Confederation of Wizards (Goblet of Fire, Chapter 7). So whether the Ministry of Magic would retain jurisdiction over an independent Scotland is an interesting question.

There is no mention of a current, separate Scottish organization, and given the Ministry's direct interference at Hogwarts (Order of the Phoenix, Chapters 2 and 11), it is reasonable to assume that there has as of yet been no devolution of Ministry powers in Scotland. While it's not inconceivable that some types of all-UK organizations could survive in some form in the event of independence, the post of Minister appears to be an elected position (Order of the Phoenix, Chapter 10), and it's difficult to believe that the Ministry would retain power over a wizarding constituency that, being in a different nation, no longer had a vote. You could argue that they would retain it anyway, but surely this is contrary to the very concept of independence? It seems more likely that Scotland would need to create its own equivalent Ministry.

That sounds likely to be a huge headache for the current Ministry of Magic. Not only is the single all-wizard town in Britain, Hogsmeade, in Scotland (Prisoner of Azkaban, Chapter 5), but perhaps more importantly, the only educational facility for British wizards is Hogwarts (Deathly Hallows, Chapter 11.) Scottish independence might mean that the Ministry would no longer have any say whatsoever in the education of its own constituency.

This could, perhaps, be one reason that J. K. Rowling has been such a strong and prominent voice for Scotland staying in the UK (The Guardian, 11 June 2014).
posted by kyrademon at 5:47 PM on September 15, 2014 [22 favorites]

(Full disclosure, the theories regarding the location of Hogwarts were adapted from various web sources. The theories as to the political jurisdiction of the Ministry of Magic and the possible repercussions of Scottish independence are, heaven help me, my own.)
posted by kyrademon at 6:10 PM on September 15, 2014 [4 favorites]

Kyrademon: Your scholarship is greater than mine own on this subject, and that itself is a hell of a compliment.

Let me pose this question: There are eleven known wizarding schools, though we Muggles are not aware of all of them. Beyond Hogwarts (U.K., Scotland, as has been confirmed, I believe, to satisfaction) Beauxbatons (France) and Durmstrang (Scandanavia, though seemingly serving the Teutonophonic world) there is the Salem Witches Institute in the U.S., possibly another there as well, Mahoutokoro in Japan, and a school in Brazil and one in Africa.

That leaves three or four schools unknown. An educated guess would place them in China, India and Oceania, though that could of course be way off.

Now, we know that Ireland plays Quidditch independently, as they were finalist and in fact winners of the QWC. That said, We also know from (I believe) Goblet of Fire that England plays independently as well, "You flew as well as Charlie Weasley, and he could have played for England if he hadn't gone off fighting Dragons!") In terms of International Quidditch, I think we have to assume that the British Isles mirror FIFA in their organization for competition. (This also implies that The Burrow is in England and not in Scotland, which could otherwise be debated.)

So given the international Wizarding Community, and the fact that there are only eleven schools to cover it, which seem to be, based on what we know, and that Durmstrang serves not only Scandanavia, but students all the way to Bulgaria at the least, do we believe that Hogwarts no longer admits Irish students? Seamus Finnegan could be from Ulster, sure, but do we think there is an Irish wizarding school, or do we think that the Wizarding World sees itself as beyond Muggle politics for these concerns?

Moreover, considering the makeup of students and faculty at Hogwarts, in the case of Scottish Independence, do you imagine them limiting their enrollment to only Scottish Witches and Wizards? They do have an endowment to keep, after all.

Eager for your thoughts.
posted by Navelgazer at 7:18 PM on September 15, 2014 [3 favorites]

FYI: back in muggleland Lucy just got hitched. Mazel tov!
posted by pullayup at 7:41 PM on September 15, 2014 [4 favorites]

Re: the questions about the expense of travel:

Portkeys are expensive, and hard to come by unless it's ministry related business. And there can be quite a wait. Likely the Weaselys did take a portkey, but it wasn't cheap.

You can't apparate over long distances.

Floos have to be connected to the network, which is fairly easy to do in the UK. I think it's harder to do internationally, because again, anything the ministry gets its hands into....
Also, no one likes using the floo. You pretty much have to shower after.
posted by greermahoney at 8:40 PM on September 15, 2014 [1 favorite]

Excellent questions, Navelgazer!

> "... do we believe that Hogwarts no longer admits Irish students?"

J. K. Rowling has actually answered this in interviews, but if we stick only to canon texts it's a bit murky.

It's known that wizarding students are allowed to "study abroad". In Goblet of Fire, Draco mentions that his parents considered sending him to Durmstrang, and Remus Lupin confirms that students can study abroad in Deathly Hallows. And given the rarity of wizarding schools, allowing out-of-country students would be a practical necessity. So whatever the political situation and the jurisdictional area of the Ministry of Magic, I have trouble believing that Hogwarts would forbid Irish students.

> "Seamus Finnegan could be from Ulster, sure, but do we think there is an Irish wizarding school[?]"

There's no direct textual evidence for or against it, but it does seem unlikely. With eleven wizarding schools in the entire world, it would be odd to have two of them serving the English-speaking region of northwestern Europe. That such a school would never be mentioned or remarked upon at Hogwarts, and would not be a part of the European school tournament system, seems to defy credibility.

> "[D]o we think that the Wizarding World sees itself as beyond Muggle politics for these concerns?"

There is definitely the possibility that the national borders of the wizarding world are not identical with those of the Muggle world. Evidence is scant but intriguing. For example, in Order of the Phoenix, Neville Longbottom's Uncle Algie said he got the Mimbulus Mimbletonia from "Assyria". Is that a national entity still extant in the wizarding world, or just a quirky, old-fashioned wizarding way of speaking? Going by Quidditch Through the Ages, Transvylvania and Flanders are known to have had their own Quidditch teams in 1473 -- at which time Muggle Transylvania was part of the Kingdom of Hungary and Flanders was partly a vassal of the Kingdom of France and partly a fief of the Holy Roman Empire within the Burgundian Netherlands. But on the other hand, a Quidditch team does not necessarily define a country -- you yourself noted that England likely has a team.

The strongest evidence against separate borders for the wizarding world are the fact that the Ministry's seats on the International Confederation of Wizards appear to be the British seats. However, that's hardly conclusive. Hm. I'm now less sure that the Ministry would not retain power in an independent Scotland.

In terms of Ireland, whether they are under the Ministry or have their own separate system, my guess based on the textual evidence would be that Irish students can go to Hogwarts (for the reasons I stated above), but that the Irish wizarding community has a strong home-schooling tradition which accounts for the relatively small number of Irish students there. It's established in Deathly Hallows that home-schooling wizards is allowed, and what student is written as being in a constant battle with his parents who want to pull him from the school and home-school him whenever anything goes wrong at Hogwarts? That, according to Order of the Phoenix, would be Seamus Finnigan.

> "Moreover, considering the makeup of students and faculty at Hogwarts, in the case of Scottish Independence, do you imagine them limiting their enrollment to only Scottish Witches and Wizards?"

I can't see that happening -- there are too few wizarding schools, educating young wizards is too important, and it'd be ridiculous for English students to go to Beauxbatons when there's an English-language school close at hand. (And based on where the students seem to come from in the books, enrollment would drop precipitously and Hogwarts would go bankrupt.) If the wizarding world actually does follow Muggle national borders and the Ministry loses power over an independent Scotland, there would have to be some kind of deal cut between the Ministry and its new Scottish equivalent.

Right now the Daily Prophet may be filled with speculation as to what kind of concessions the Ministry may have to make in the event of a Yes vote. Assuming they aren't ignoring it entirely as Muggle business.
posted by kyrademon at 2:38 AM on September 16, 2014 [6 favorites]

So I have to ask: is there a place where I can read more stuff like this? The combination of actual facts with Potter Canon is delightful.

And I better hear some of these on the podcast next month, you Mods!
posted by wenestvedt at 9:52 AM on September 16, 2014 [1 favorite]

In terms of International Quidditch, I think we have to assume that the British Isles mirror FIFA in their organization for competition.

Well, this makes very little sense if you assume that a country for wizarding purposes will have a Quidditch team and also a government. Now, I don't remember if we talked about a Welsh or a Scottish team, but if not you could make an argument that there are two magic governments overlapping the British Isles, one that covers England, Scotland and Wales which magicians call England and one that covers Ireland and Northern Ireland which magicians call Ireland. (I'll ignore all the smaller islands.) Probably these governments are very close. In this case, of course, there's no reason to assume anything would change if Scotland does separate. (I would need to reread GoF to check up on things like this.)

But we can ignore Quidditch which already makes no sense and has no historical reason to share weird FIFA rules.

Really the question is whether and how magical borders should cover national borders. At some point, it probably made sense to use those borders, but eventually wars and other things would change borders, and changing all your magical government because of a muggle change makes very little sense. So perhaps there is no magical Finland; I'd be shocked if there were a magic EU that just so happened to include all and only the countries in the real EU.

Overall, I don't see an argument that the Ministry of Magic would consider Scotland no longer under its control, or that witches and wizards there would think that they are bound by a muggle referendum.

Question: do witches and wizards vote in muggle elections at all? Are they counted in the census?
posted by jeather at 11:27 AM on September 16, 2014 [1 favorite]

I'd forgotten that early chapters if GoF confirm that Scotland, England and Wales play international quidditch as separate entities, and information from Pottermore lists FIQA (Federation International de Quidditch Association) as the governing body. I believe that, whether we decide that it is by confluence, coincidence, or what have you, FIQA and FIFA operate pretty similarly.

As for your second point, what you say makes sense to me. Wizarding Brittons tend to live within a few communities, though by Quidditch we know that those communities are spread across the Isles.

Finally, Witches and Wizards intermarry with Muggles. I'm pretty sure that'd be a mess if they weren't part of the Muggle census.
posted by Navelgazer at 12:31 PM on September 16, 2014

NEEEEEEEEEEEEEERRRRRRRRRRRRRDS

Now if you'll excuse me, I'm going to go listen to the Broadway cast album of Sweeney Todd while learning my lines for the Shakespeare play I'm in in November...
posted by Mr. Bad Example at 1:06 PM on September 16, 2014 [4 favorites]

Finally, Witches and Wizards intermarry with Muggles. I'm pretty sure that'd be a mess if they weren't part of the Muggle census.

Well, I'm not sure; you could certainly magic stuff away that would make the census work. They shouldn't be counted in, say, Hogsmeade, but would be counted if they lived in Ottery St Catchpole or Godric's Hollow where the Muggles would notice if the population was too low. But what about people who live in houses that are charmed to be invisible to Muggles? How do witches and wizards answer questions about income level and education and jobs?

I'm really not sure about voting. In a small town, one would think it would be noticeable if a large group of people who all were a bit weird and lived in the same part of town didn't vote. Perhaps they are small enough in numbers that they can just put through blank ballots, or maybe they just do memory charms on Muggles. (You could absolutely take over a small town with magic, just by having everyone vote for you. I wonder how the MoM would figure this out; there have to be some witches or wizards who just want power over Muggles. On the one hand, they don't seem to care so much about the Muggle world, but on the other that could risk breaking the International Statute of Secrecy.)
posted by jeather at 2:24 PM on September 16, 2014

Well, it's tricky, isn't it? Muggle politics affect the wizarding world and vice versa. The reason that Muggles have no say in the MoM isn't that they have no right to representation, but that the MoM's existence is itself kept secret from them. So that's a moral issue of it's own.

But the reverse isn't true. Witches and Wizards live in the same world as Muggles and have a right to representation there as well. Most probably think so little of the affairs of Muggles that they wouldn't exercise it, but they have a right to their say regardless.
posted by Navelgazer at 5:39 PM on September 16, 2014

I always figured--as a person who was concerned about these sorts of things while reading the books, because what good is fantasy without being able to imagine someone else's tedious drudge of bureaucracy--that the Ministry of Magic just took care of all of that sort of thing for them. Minister of Magic is an elected position, elected by the wizarding population, and presumably there is some further sort of representation of the people in magical government. Well, you elect those people to make the decisions about muggle voting for you, and then they magic their magical votes into muggle politics, as would best work for the magical population. That would explain why so much of the wizarding world is dumbfounded by muggle ways. They literally have no need to be involved in it; they've elected wizards to take care of that kind of thinking for them.

OH oh oh or maybe there are actual wizards who are MPs, all walking around wearing suits and terrible haircuts, pretending to be [imagine that I know more about parliamentary government here] when actually they're out there legislating on behalf of the magical population, undercover-like.
posted by phunniemee at 6:30 PM on September 16, 2014 [1 favorite]

thatcher was definitely a death eater
posted by poffin boffin at 6:53 PM on September 16, 2014 [4 favorites]

But how much do Muggle politics affect the wizarding world? The wizarding world can affect the Muggle world -- we see that in HBP -- but I am not sure how much the reverse is true. And since they are generally utterly indifferent to Muggles or Muggle rights beyond "let's not kill them", would they waste their time voting? Would they waste the politicians' time magicking up all of Westminster? I would think not. (The bombing of cities where wizards live during war also raises questions, but seems to point to "you are not involved in our governments or wars, and we won't bother with yours".)

I'd think if there are wizards who are regularly in parliament, that would have come up when Kingsley Shacklebolt took a job as a secretary.

Minister of Magic is an elected position, elected by the wizarding population, and presumably there is some further sort of representation of the people in magical government.

And do I have a lot of questions about how this works.

thatcher was definitely a death eater

This is clearly true, but does not work with my arguments above. I'll just call her one of those exceptional witches who wants to live in the Muggle world -- probably she was Muggle-born and her parents refused to send her to Hogwarts so she did only a little magic, enough to keep her under the radar but also to give her power as needed.
posted by jeather at 5:45 AM on September 17, 2014

thatcher was definitely a death eater

I think she was more like Umbridge, personally.
posted by immlass at 2:36 PM on September 17, 2014 [1 favorite]

Did Scotland come under the rule of John Uskglass? The Raven King must have had something to do with the founding of Hogwarts. As Jonathan Strange reminds us, "without the Raven King there would be no magic and no magicians."

If Scotland secedes, Yorkshire and the King's Other Lands should follow suit.
posted by justsomebodythatyouusedtoknow at 4:56 PM on September 17, 2014 [2 favorites]

Where is Azkaban located? Is it the only wizard/witch prison we know of? Because if so, that would suggest fewer political factions within the Wizarding world than within our Muggle one, too.
posted by misha at 12:17 AM on September 18, 2014

Azkaban is on an island in the North Sea (Prisoner of Azkaban, Chapter 10, Half Blood Prince, Chapter 1). The exact location is unspecified, but certain assumptions can be made from the fact that when Sirius Black escaped, he swam to Britain, passed through Little Whinging in Surrey (Prisoner of Azkaban, Chapter 22), and then traveled north to get to Hogwarts (Prisoner of Azkaban, Chapter 19).

Given North Sea currents, that means it's probably not more than 50 miles from the British coast. If we accept interviews as evidence, Rowling has stated it was in the northern part of the North Sea, meaning Sirius was carried a good distance south before he reached land. If it's somewhere around Bell Rock and the Isle of May, that would mean that Sirius in dog form is a tough customer indeed to survive the swim, but it's not outside the realm of possibility.

I'd say other wizarding prisons exist. Certainly there's Nurmengard, where Gellert Grindelwald was held (Deathly Hallows, Chapter 18). However, Igor Karkaroff, who was probably foreign-born, did his time in Azkaban (Goblet of Fire, Chapter 19), but it was for crimes committed in the UK so that may have been a jurisdictional matter.
posted by kyrademon at 6:50 AM on September 18, 2014 [3 favorites]

Sirius in dog form is a tough customer indeed

Given the significant amount of violence in the wizarding world (not just the wars but things like the violence in quidditch and parents finding out about their children's magic by them falling off the roof and bouncing), I've always assumed wizards in general are physically very tough customers. Either that or their magic reflexively protects them, which seems to be the case with the bouncing.
posted by immlass at 9:03 AM on September 18, 2014