A titanic defeat!
September 23, 2014 10:46 AM Subscribe
Blizzard cancels Titan. After 7 years of work on the MMO, the successor to World of Warcraft has been cancelled.
Additional details about Titan can be found here.
We didn't find the fun," Morhaime continued. "We didn't find the passion. We talked about how we put it through a reevaluation period, and actually, what we reevaluated is whether that's the game we really wanted to be making. The answer is no."
Additional details about Titan can be found here.
But not the most appropriately titled.
posted by T.D. Strange at 10:50 AM on September 23, 2014 [3 favorites]
posted by T.D. Strange at 10:50 AM on September 23, 2014 [3 favorites]
/me is still sore about Warcraft Adventures.
posted by octothorpe at 10:52 AM on September 23, 2014 [5 favorites]
posted by octothorpe at 10:52 AM on September 23, 2014 [5 favorites]
The inability of Blizzard to put out a credible follow-up to WoW feels similar to the inability of WotC to ever replace M:tG. In both cases, their original offering both mainstreamed a genre (invented it, in the case of M:tG), but also more or less destroyed it at the same time.
posted by tocts at 10:53 AM on September 23, 2014 [5 favorites]
posted by tocts at 10:53 AM on September 23, 2014 [5 favorites]
When you've got a cash cow like WoW, you can make these giant-sized bets and fail. What's refreshing is to see someone actually do exactly that -- fail, totally and utterly -- instead of just shitting something out that ultimately damages your brand and internal culture.
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 10:54 AM on September 23, 2014 [34 favorites]
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 10:54 AM on September 23, 2014 [34 favorites]
The way they're talking about it is really, really strange to me. Strikes me less like a big company making an enormous decision than a bunch of guys saying "eh, we lost the flow, you know? The chakras weren't aligned or whatever."
This in particular is so odd:
Metzen spoke of a "sense of inertia and obligation and identity that we hold in ourselves and the community may also hold toward us" that pushed Blizzard to focus development resources on a second MMO. "Is this really who we are?" he asked. "Is this really what we want? Is this really what we want to burn our passion and our work lives, our careers on, for years on end?"
"Are we the MMORPG company?" he added later, in conclusion to that line of questioning.
Yeah, like in fact, what are we on this Earth for? Shouldn't I be surfing? Let's dissolve the company and just backpack Europe for a few years...
posted by naju at 10:54 AM on September 23, 2014 [22 favorites]
This in particular is so odd:
Metzen spoke of a "sense of inertia and obligation and identity that we hold in ourselves and the community may also hold toward us" that pushed Blizzard to focus development resources on a second MMO. "Is this really who we are?" he asked. "Is this really what we want? Is this really what we want to burn our passion and our work lives, our careers on, for years on end?"
"Are we the MMORPG company?" he added later, in conclusion to that line of questioning.
Yeah, like in fact, what are we on this Earth for? Shouldn't I be surfing? Let's dissolve the company and just backpack Europe for a few years...
posted by naju at 10:54 AM on September 23, 2014 [22 favorites]
Sounds to me like they want to develop mobile apps.
posted by blue_beetle at 10:55 AM on September 23, 2014 [2 favorites]
posted by blue_beetle at 10:55 AM on September 23, 2014 [2 favorites]
Yeah, it is odd. I mean, to this day we basically know nothing about Titan, so this is basically like "We were working on an MMO but we canceled it." Okay?
That said they must have spent a LOT less money on Hearthstone and that seems to be doing great, so maybe they just decided the risk/reward on developing an MMO was not feasible, much like every other developer these days.
posted by selfnoise at 10:58 AM on September 23, 2014 [2 favorites]
That said they must have spent a LOT less money on Hearthstone and that seems to be doing great, so maybe they just decided the risk/reward on developing an MMO was not feasible, much like every other developer these days.
posted by selfnoise at 10:58 AM on September 23, 2014 [2 favorites]
The inability of Blizzard to put out a credible follow-up to WoW feels similar to the inability of WotC to ever replace M:tG.
Hearthstone is fine. Fun with friends, less fun with random people who play WAY WAY more than you do. Kinda like M:tG
Diablo 3 is fun. (More now than at release)
Starcraft 2 is fun.
Decisions like this are why I know I'll buy whatever Blizzard puts out next. Because they're willing to only put their name on something worth the money they're charging customers.
posted by DigDoug at 10:59 AM on September 23, 2014 [16 favorites]
Hearthstone is fine. Fun with friends, less fun with random people who play WAY WAY more than you do. Kinda like M:tG
Diablo 3 is fun. (More now than at release)
Starcraft 2 is fun.
Decisions like this are why I know I'll buy whatever Blizzard puts out next. Because they're willing to only put their name on something worth the money they're charging customers.
posted by DigDoug at 10:59 AM on September 23, 2014 [16 favorites]
Blizzard's past is pretty much a story of a company that has wanted to work in a diversity of genres and ended up with three tentpole franchises that live within variations of real-time strategy and the 2/3 (or whatever) perspective click-to-kill adventures. I haven't a clue if Warcraft 3 was the last of its line, but they're pretty much a Starcraft/WoW/Diablo 3 company right now, and no theme variations have made it to market for years.
posted by mikeh at 10:59 AM on September 23, 2014
posted by mikeh at 10:59 AM on September 23, 2014
The way they're talking about it is really, really strange to me. Strikes me less like a big company making an enormous decision than a bunch of guys saying "eh, we lost the flow, you know?
Yes, this is truly bizarre as a specimen of management rhetoric. But isn't this really just the new, "cool" form of buck-passing? Like, if you'd been more or less personally in charge of your industry's latest Edsel, you'd be looking for elaborate rhetorical "no one could've known" shrugs too. The problem is that it's a symptom of a whole giant industry where seemingly no one feels obligated to use their grownup words.
posted by RogerB at 10:59 AM on September 23, 2014 [1 favorite]
Yes, this is truly bizarre as a specimen of management rhetoric. But isn't this really just the new, "cool" form of buck-passing? Like, if you'd been more or less personally in charge of your industry's latest Edsel, you'd be looking for elaborate rhetorical "no one could've known" shrugs too. The problem is that it's a symptom of a whole giant industry where seemingly no one feels obligated to use their grownup words.
posted by RogerB at 10:59 AM on September 23, 2014 [1 favorite]
Oh yeah, Hearthstone! Haven't played that, but it's more of a sideline for now, despite being the type of game that could blow up on mobile, right?
posted by mikeh at 11:00 AM on September 23, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by mikeh at 11:00 AM on September 23, 2014 [1 favorite]
What's refreshing is to see someone actually do exactly that -- fail, totally and utterly -- instead of just shitting something out that ultimately damages your brand and internal culture.
That's what I was thinking too. I think the idea of sunk-cost-fallacy is catching on, so there's slightly more public understanding to the choice. Still, it's encouraging to see.
similar to the inability of WotC to ever replace M:tG
Totally different thing. MtG, especially since Hasbro has taken over, is a juggernaut. Their differentiation of player types by formats and their online model have made it a total cash machine for them (and still amazingly popular among a lot of different types of people).
posted by Reasonably Everything Happens at 11:00 AM on September 23, 2014 [3 favorites]
That's what I was thinking too. I think the idea of sunk-cost-fallacy is catching on, so there's slightly more public understanding to the choice. Still, it's encouraging to see.
similar to the inability of WotC to ever replace M:tG
Totally different thing. MtG, especially since Hasbro has taken over, is a juggernaut. Their differentiation of player types by formats and their online model have made it a total cash machine for them (and still amazingly popular among a lot of different types of people).
posted by Reasonably Everything Happens at 11:00 AM on September 23, 2014 [3 favorites]
I wonder if the brutally negative reaction to Destiny's release had something to do with this. We just saw firsthand what happens when a company puts out an ambitious, yet extremely flawed product amidst great expectations. It's not pretty.
posted by naju at 11:00 AM on September 23, 2014 [2 favorites]
posted by naju at 11:00 AM on September 23, 2014 [2 favorites]
Well this is good for my life.
posted by halfling at 11:02 AM on September 23, 2014 [4 favorites]
posted by halfling at 11:02 AM on September 23, 2014 [4 favorites]
It's pretty hard to make a sequel to a MMO. Players have invested tons of time and cash into WoW, why would they want to start from scratch in a new game? Releasing a sequel is also sort of own-goal "shelf moment", when players are confronted with the fact that the old game will inevitably decline due to falling player numbers, reduced support by the developer, and lack of new content. Some fraction of your players will decide that it's time to move on to other things. Migrating a player-base is also tricky, if all your friends and clan-mates are still in WoW, why would you go to the new thing where you will be alone? You're asking your players to solve a hard social coordination problem, in addition to all the other difficulties.
I think the far smarter strategy with a game like WoW, which I believe EvE has followed, is to just continue to improve and expand the game you have.
posted by rustcrumb at 11:03 AM on September 23, 2014 [5 favorites]
I think the far smarter strategy with a game like WoW, which I believe EvE has followed, is to just continue to improve and expand the game you have.
posted by rustcrumb at 11:03 AM on September 23, 2014 [5 favorites]
The way they're talking about it is really, really strange to me.
Not much point trying to read into the wording of the press release. With something like this, the PR spin reasons and the actual reasons may have little in common. Even the reasons understood by most of the employees themselves may be a semi-fiction concocted to preserve moral.
So, yeah, there's probably plenty that could be read between the lines, but you probably won't get to there from dissecting the publicly released information.
posted by anonymisc at 11:03 AM on September 23, 2014 [2 favorites]
Not much point trying to read into the wording of the press release. With something like this, the PR spin reasons and the actual reasons may have little in common. Even the reasons understood by most of the employees themselves may be a semi-fiction concocted to preserve moral.
So, yeah, there's probably plenty that could be read between the lines, but you probably won't get to there from dissecting the publicly released information.
posted by anonymisc at 11:03 AM on September 23, 2014 [2 favorites]
"Is this really who we are?" he asked. "Is this really what we want? Is this really what we want to burn our passion and our work lives, our careers on, for years on end?"
That sounds more like the dialog from one of those seventies "middle-age crisis" movies, right before the protagonist quits and starts an affair with a 20 year old.
posted by octothorpe at 11:04 AM on September 23, 2014 [9 favorites]
That sounds more like the dialog from one of those seventies "middle-age crisis" movies, right before the protagonist quits and starts an affair with a 20 year old.
posted by octothorpe at 11:04 AM on September 23, 2014 [9 favorites]
There's one obvious problem with producing a second MMO when they've already one behemoth. WoW isn't a complete game - they produce new stuff. Which means that most of the ideas of the Titan team will have fallen into two categories. Not WoW and so hard to do and often deliberately WoW inspired - and things that the WoW team could steal and so would seem old by the time it was done.
posted by Francis at 11:05 AM on September 23, 2014 [4 favorites]
posted by Francis at 11:05 AM on September 23, 2014 [4 favorites]
they're pretty much a Starcraft/WoW/Diablo 3 company right now, and no theme variations have made it to market for years.
Are you thinking what I'm thinking? (World of Stellar Diablo Crafters).
posted by Perko at 11:05 AM on September 23, 2014 [4 favorites]
Are you thinking what I'm thinking? (World of Stellar Diablo Crafters).
posted by Perko at 11:05 AM on September 23, 2014 [4 favorites]
The way they're talking about it is really, really strange to me. Strikes me less like a big company making an enormous decision than a bunch of guys saying "eh, we lost the flow, you know? The chakras weren't aligned or whatever."
I see your point but I think something that often happens is that companies become successful through innovation and then, when they get successful, their culture/identity become entrenched and they aren't innovative anymore. Their success itself can preclude the type of thinking that brought that success.
I think asking questions about their identity as an MMORPG company is actually really valuable and realizing that what made them successful was doing something well and doing something about which they cared instead of just churning out another version of whatever thing is a sign that they have the chance to do something innovative and creative and interesting instead of just being a big lumbering corporate behemoth releasing obligatory crap every however many years.
posted by Mrs. Pterodactyl at 11:09 AM on September 23, 2014 [1 favorite]
I see your point but I think something that often happens is that companies become successful through innovation and then, when they get successful, their culture/identity become entrenched and they aren't innovative anymore. Their success itself can preclude the type of thinking that brought that success.
I think asking questions about their identity as an MMORPG company is actually really valuable and realizing that what made them successful was doing something well and doing something about which they cared instead of just churning out another version of whatever thing is a sign that they have the chance to do something innovative and creative and interesting instead of just being a big lumbering corporate behemoth releasing obligatory crap every however many years.
posted by Mrs. Pterodactyl at 11:09 AM on September 23, 2014 [1 favorite]
7 years really seems to be the breakpoint for MMOs. There are a bunch that have gone that long and been canceled (Warhammer 40k leaps to mind) and a few that have gone that long and flopped spectacularly (Tabula Rasa, anyone?) but not many at all that have spent that much time in the tank and been any good. (Anyone played Wildstar? Is it decent? It doesn't seem to be taking over the world.)
The other thing that's happened is, in the last 7 years, the whole industry has shifted away from the original $15/month business model, and games that do well these days have alternatives to that model - and are designed around them. Conversions are tricky, and you may as well plan for them instead.
posted by restless_nomad at 11:11 AM on September 23, 2014 [1 favorite]
The other thing that's happened is, in the last 7 years, the whole industry has shifted away from the original $15/month business model, and games that do well these days have alternatives to that model - and are designed around them. Conversions are tricky, and you may as well plan for them instead.
posted by restless_nomad at 11:11 AM on September 23, 2014 [1 favorite]
There's one obvious problem with producing a second MMO when they've already one behemoth. WoW isn't a complete game - they produce new stuff. Which means that most of the ideas of the Titan team will have fallen into two categories. Not WoW and so hard to do and often deliberately WoW inspired - and things that the WoW team could steal and so would seem old by the time it was done.
That's exactly what I was getting out of it too. I know it's just a press release, but as far as cancelling it I wonder how much of it was just due to their inability to escape the MMORPG mold, that they themselves largely created.
Whenever a new MMORPG comes out, it's pretty much instantly branded "WoW Clone!!", ignoring the merits of either side of that argument, how much of a disaster would it be if Blizzard, the creators of WoW, came out with a WoW Clone?
posted by mayonnaises at 11:12 AM on September 23, 2014
That's exactly what I was getting out of it too. I know it's just a press release, but as far as cancelling it I wonder how much of it was just due to their inability to escape the MMORPG mold, that they themselves largely created.
Whenever a new MMORPG comes out, it's pretty much instantly branded "WoW Clone!!", ignoring the merits of either side of that argument, how much of a disaster would it be if Blizzard, the creators of WoW, came out with a WoW Clone?
posted by mayonnaises at 11:12 AM on September 23, 2014
There are a bunch that have gone that long and been canceled (Warhammer 40k leaps to mind)
What? I'm still getting developer updates on Eternal Crusade, or was there another WH40K MMO I somehow missed?
posted by Sternmeyer at 11:15 AM on September 23, 2014
What? I'm still getting developer updates on Eternal Crusade, or was there another WH40K MMO I somehow missed?
posted by Sternmeyer at 11:15 AM on September 23, 2014
Yup, the Vigil one was what I was thinking of.
posted by restless_nomad at 11:18 AM on September 23, 2014
posted by restless_nomad at 11:18 AM on September 23, 2014
I think asking questions about their identity as an MMORPG company is actually really valuable
I agree and I think they lost sight of their spirit of innovation somewhere down the line. I remember long before they found their triptych of successful franchises, when they were coming up with oddball stuff like Lost Vikings consistently.
That said, 7 years into their biggest project is a hell of a time to have an existential identity crisis.
posted by naju at 11:19 AM on September 23, 2014 [1 favorite]
I agree and I think they lost sight of their spirit of innovation somewhere down the line. I remember long before they found their triptych of successful franchises, when they were coming up with oddball stuff like Lost Vikings consistently.
That said, 7 years into their biggest project is a hell of a time to have an existential identity crisis.
posted by naju at 11:19 AM on September 23, 2014 [1 favorite]
I agree, it seems like a flippant way to decide the future of a big, expensive project and the people working on it, but games seem to be like this in general. There doesn't seem to be any way to judge whether a game will work or not without actually building it first.
In film they have tools like storyboarding and pre-vis that let them see whether something works before they start filming, but in games the best they can do is build a prototype, which is difficult to do for a complex, interconnected game like an MMO, I'd imagine.
posted by a dangerous ruin at 11:20 AM on September 23, 2014 [2 favorites]
In film they have tools like storyboarding and pre-vis that let them see whether something works before they start filming, but in games the best they can do is build a prototype, which is difficult to do for a complex, interconnected game like an MMO, I'd imagine.
posted by a dangerous ruin at 11:20 AM on September 23, 2014 [2 favorites]
The game really got effectively cancelled in May 2013, when they said they were completely starting over on the game design. I'm sad because Titan started with a lot of the strong core team that made World of Warcraft. Many years of effort and apparently no release to show for it.
If you want way more insider gossip and speculation, TitanFocus has done an excellent job covering the rumors for three years. Folks paying close attention have seen this coming for at least a year now.
Blizzard is fine. In addition to Diablo 3 and Starcraft 2, they've also created two new properties in the past year or two that are very exciting. Hearthstone is a huge, surprise success for them. And Heroes of the Storm is looking very promising, a casual-friendly MOBA in the genre of League of Legends, DotA2, and a zillion other in-the-works games. World of Warcraft is not looking so healthy, but then that whole MMO business model is falling apart so it may be just as well.
I'm just pleased all this news is still discussed in terms of "Blizzard" and not "Activision". They've retained their brand independence.
posted by Nelson at 11:21 AM on September 23, 2014 [1 favorite]
If you want way more insider gossip and speculation, TitanFocus has done an excellent job covering the rumors for three years. Folks paying close attention have seen this coming for at least a year now.
Blizzard is fine. In addition to Diablo 3 and Starcraft 2, they've also created two new properties in the past year or two that are very exciting. Hearthstone is a huge, surprise success for them. And Heroes of the Storm is looking very promising, a casual-friendly MOBA in the genre of League of Legends, DotA2, and a zillion other in-the-works games. World of Warcraft is not looking so healthy, but then that whole MMO business model is falling apart so it may be just as well.
I'm just pleased all this news is still discussed in terms of "Blizzard" and not "Activision". They've retained their brand independence.
posted by Nelson at 11:21 AM on September 23, 2014 [1 favorite]
Totally different thing. MtG, especially since Hasbro has taken over, is a juggernaut. Their differentiation of player types by formats and their online model have made it a total cash machine for them (and still amazingly popular among a lot of different types of people).
To be clear, I was not saying M:tG isn't profitable; it is, hugely so. I was saying, M:tG both invented the CCG, and destroyed it as a model outside of the one game. It will continue to soldier on, possibly until the heat death of the universe, and it will continue to be hugely profitable. Despite this, nobody (not even WotC) has been able to overcome its inertia and follow it up with a replacement (or even contender).
This is what I was pointing out, when comparing M:tG and WoW. I didn't say that Blizzard hasn't released other good, profitable games (they have). I'm simply pointing out that it feels like as far as MMOs go, WoW may have too much inertia for even Blizzard to be able to ever replace.
posted by tocts at 11:24 AM on September 23, 2014
To be clear, I was not saying M:tG isn't profitable; it is, hugely so. I was saying, M:tG both invented the CCG, and destroyed it as a model outside of the one game. It will continue to soldier on, possibly until the heat death of the universe, and it will continue to be hugely profitable. Despite this, nobody (not even WotC) has been able to overcome its inertia and follow it up with a replacement (or even contender).
This is what I was pointing out, when comparing M:tG and WoW. I didn't say that Blizzard hasn't released other good, profitable games (they have). I'm simply pointing out that it feels like as far as MMOs go, WoW may have too much inertia for even Blizzard to be able to ever replace.
posted by tocts at 11:24 AM on September 23, 2014
Despite this, nobody (not even WotC) has been able to overcome its inertia and follow it up with a replacement (or even contender).
Didn't Pokémon and Yu-Gi-Oh do monstrous business?
posted by murphy slaw at 11:26 AM on September 23, 2014 [2 favorites]
Didn't Pokémon and Yu-Gi-Oh do monstrous business?
posted by murphy slaw at 11:26 AM on September 23, 2014 [2 favorites]
The wikipedia page for StarCraft II: Legacy of the Void says that's been cancelled too.
posted by whuppy at 11:27 AM on September 23, 2014
posted by whuppy at 11:27 AM on September 23, 2014
I think this is more of an indicator that the arguably best game developer doesn't see a future for the MMO as a game archetype. So what's next?
The entire tech industry is pushing towards mobile. Thinking globally, the next several million gamers' (not to mention consumers) only Internet experience will be via mobile. What can they create that taps into that, is easily translated to multiple languages, and is attractive to different cultural tastes?
Folks, it's time to bring back pogs. Virtual. Pogs.
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 11:28 AM on September 23, 2014 [4 favorites]
The entire tech industry is pushing towards mobile. Thinking globally, the next several million gamers' (not to mention consumers) only Internet experience will be via mobile. What can they create that taps into that, is easily translated to multiple languages, and is attractive to different cultural tastes?
Folks, it's time to bring back pogs. Virtual. Pogs.
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 11:28 AM on September 23, 2014 [4 favorites]
Is Diablo 3 that much better now? I really enjoyed 1 and 2 but 3 felt very generic. Last I played was at least six months ago if not a year.
posted by mrbigmuscles at 11:29 AM on September 23, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by mrbigmuscles at 11:29 AM on September 23, 2014 [1 favorite]
That sounds more like the dialog from one of those seventies "middle-age crisis" movies, right before the protagonist quits and starts an affair with a 20 year old.
Hey. Don't judge me.
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 11:29 AM on September 23, 2014 [5 favorites]
Hey. Don't judge me.
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 11:29 AM on September 23, 2014 [5 favorites]
Oh man, Eternal Crusade. I don't want to be hopeful about this game. Space Marine, the game after which the mechanics and action are mostly modeled, was great but the lack of multiplayer support was awful. The dodge system, CQC, and melee systems were great in the single player but fell all the way down when any sort of latency entered the equation. And the horrible balance issues that were never fixed (plasma cannons for life yo). And the DLC fragmenting the multiplayer community and there being no way to do an 'all available games' search.
Whoever decided, at whatever point in the late ought's, that we no longer needed server lists for multiplayer should be forced to connect players manually like a switchboard operator for BF:Hardline matches.
posted by Slackermagee at 11:31 AM on September 23, 2014
Whoever decided, at whatever point in the late ought's, that we no longer needed server lists for multiplayer should be forced to connect players manually like a switchboard operator for BF:Hardline matches.
posted by Slackermagee at 11:31 AM on September 23, 2014
but there already was a successor to wow:
d&d 4e
posted by Sticherbeast at 11:31 AM on September 23, 2014 [5 favorites]
d&d 4e
posted by Sticherbeast at 11:31 AM on September 23, 2014 [5 favorites]
whuppy: I think that Starcraft 2 thing on Wikipedia was just a troll edit. Unsourced, and it's already been reverted. Although they sure are taking forever with Legacy of the Void.
mrbigmuscles: Diablo 3 is better now. The expansion adds good content, and they redesigned a lot of the core game systems to make it more fun. No auction house, more loot, etc. That being said if D3 felt generic to you I don't think that aspect has changed much.
posted by Nelson at 11:31 AM on September 23, 2014 [2 favorites]
mrbigmuscles: Diablo 3 is better now. The expansion adds good content, and they redesigned a lot of the core game systems to make it more fun. No auction house, more loot, etc. That being said if D3 felt generic to you I don't think that aspect has changed much.
posted by Nelson at 11:31 AM on September 23, 2014 [2 favorites]
Also, NetRunner is shaping up to be a true contender to M:tG. Its not there yet, player base wise, but in a couple of years I think you'll see as much of a community around that as around M:tG.
posted by Slackermagee at 11:32 AM on September 23, 2014
posted by Slackermagee at 11:32 AM on September 23, 2014
I've seen behind the scenes at [one of world's most respected game studios] while one team was making a sequel to [genre's biggest blockbuster] and another team was making a sequel to [related genre's megahit], and... funny things happen.
The team, especially production leadership, feels a lot of pressure that whatever they create, it's got to be bigger and better than the existing game or it's a failure. The task is essentially "You have make a game that you can be sure will be a bigger hit than the biggest hit game that history has ever seen."
Doing that with certainty is clearly an impossible task, but it's the standard that your intuition wants to work from (and certainly anyone with money invested wants you working to hit that standard!). Since it's impossible, anything and everything you produce is going to fall short of that certainty, and so... how big a risk are you comfortable taking, when everything hangs in the balance? Everything from your reputation to billions of dollars.
People who do great work, put in that crucible they start second-guessing themselves.
People who did work that was clearly better than the existing game, after being immersed in that work for six months, lose distance and it seems stale and old and gets discarded as probably not good enough, even though six months ago people were blown away by how awesome it was.
So much great work is dumped for more or less psychological reasons.
I'm not suggesting this was behind Titan being cancelled, just pointing out that "eh, we lost the flow, you know?" does happen.
posted by anonymisc at 11:33 AM on September 23, 2014 [6 favorites]
The team, especially production leadership, feels a lot of pressure that whatever they create, it's got to be bigger and better than the existing game or it's a failure. The task is essentially "You have make a game that you can be sure will be a bigger hit than the biggest hit game that history has ever seen."
Doing that with certainty is clearly an impossible task, but it's the standard that your intuition wants to work from (and certainly anyone with money invested wants you working to hit that standard!). Since it's impossible, anything and everything you produce is going to fall short of that certainty, and so... how big a risk are you comfortable taking, when everything hangs in the balance? Everything from your reputation to billions of dollars.
People who do great work, put in that crucible they start second-guessing themselves.
People who did work that was clearly better than the existing game, after being immersed in that work for six months, lose distance and it seems stale and old and gets discarded as probably not good enough, even though six months ago people were blown away by how awesome it was.
So much great work is dumped for more or less psychological reasons.
I'm not suggesting this was behind Titan being cancelled, just pointing out that "eh, we lost the flow, you know?" does happen.
posted by anonymisc at 11:33 AM on September 23, 2014 [6 favorites]
mrbigmuscles: Diablo 3 is better now. The expansion adds good content, and they redesigned a lot of the core game systems to make it more fun. No auction house, more loot, etc. That being said if D3 felt generic to you I don't think that aspect has changed much.
Yeah the atmosphere of the game still is what it is. If you want something that feels more like Diablo 2, I'd actually recommend trying Path of Exile, it's surprisingly good.
posted by selfnoise at 11:33 AM on September 23, 2014 [2 favorites]
Yeah the atmosphere of the game still is what it is. If you want something that feels more like Diablo 2, I'd actually recommend trying Path of Exile, it's surprisingly good.
posted by selfnoise at 11:33 AM on September 23, 2014 [2 favorites]
Oh slick, I hadn't heard of the Vigil one, too bad it died.
Is WoW doing that badly? I thought it had more subs than something like the ten most successful free to play MMOs combined had players.
posted by Sternmeyer at 11:34 AM on September 23, 2014
Is WoW doing that badly? I thought it had more subs than something like the ten most successful free to play MMOs combined had players.
posted by Sternmeyer at 11:34 AM on September 23, 2014
The wikipedia page for StarCraft II: Legacy of the Void says that's been cancelled too.
Huh. It doesn't say that now, but it did 4 days ago. For a minute I was afraid they were doomed to never have a Protoss expansion.
posted by aubilenon at 11:34 AM on September 23, 2014
Huh. It doesn't say that now, but it did 4 days ago. For a minute I was afraid they were doomed to never have a Protoss expansion.
posted by aubilenon at 11:34 AM on September 23, 2014
Number of World of Warcraft subscribers from 1st quarter 2005 to 2nd quarter 2014. It's down from a peak of 12M players to about 7M. That's still a huge enormous success by any reasonable standard, but it's also clearly in decline. No other MMO has ever recovered from a slide like that. (Subscriber graphs for many MMOs).
I think Titan was originally going to be Blizzard's hail mary successor to WoW, based on an MMO-FPS idea. And all along they've consistently said they couldn't quite make it gel, they couldn't find the fun. I think it's quite smart to just declare it's not working out, which they did last year, and then cancel it entirely when you realize the market has shifted. I can't overstate how huge Hearthstone has been for Blizzard, particularly as such a surprise given their original ambitions.
posted by Nelson at 11:38 AM on September 23, 2014 [2 favorites]
I think Titan was originally going to be Blizzard's hail mary successor to WoW, based on an MMO-FPS idea. And all along they've consistently said they couldn't quite make it gel, they couldn't find the fun. I think it's quite smart to just declare it's not working out, which they did last year, and then cancel it entirely when you realize the market has shifted. I can't overstate how huge Hearthstone has been for Blizzard, particularly as such a surprise given their original ambitions.
posted by Nelson at 11:38 AM on September 23, 2014 [2 favorites]
I wonder if the brutally negative reaction to Destiny's release had something to do with this. We just saw firsthand what happens when a company puts out an ambitious, yet extremely flawed product amidst great expectations. It's not pretty.
The critical backlash is present, and both players and the press are holding it up as an example of a hype bubble, but from what I hear there are tons and tons of people actually playing Destiny right now despite its flaws. Ultimately I think the numbers might end up vindicating it.
posted by Apocryphon at 11:38 AM on September 23, 2014
The critical backlash is present, and both players and the press are holding it up as an example of a hype bubble, but from what I hear there are tons and tons of people actually playing Destiny right now despite its flaws. Ultimately I think the numbers might end up vindicating it.
posted by Apocryphon at 11:38 AM on September 23, 2014
Didn't Pokémon and Yu-Gi-Oh do monstrous business?
My impression, and this is admittedly from game store owners (are there published stats?) is that both of those have had generally good runs, but orders of magnitude less sales than Magic. Meanwhile, the '90s through now are littered with the remains of what must have been a couple dozen big attempts to make "the next Magic".
posted by tocts at 11:46 AM on September 23, 2014
My impression, and this is admittedly from game store owners (are there published stats?) is that both of those have had generally good runs, but orders of magnitude less sales than Magic. Meanwhile, the '90s through now are littered with the remains of what must have been a couple dozen big attempts to make "the next Magic".
posted by tocts at 11:46 AM on September 23, 2014
The critical backlash is present, and both players and the press are holding it up as an example of a hype bubble, but from what I hear there are tons and tons of people actually playing Destiny right now despite its flaws. Ultimately I think the numbers might end up vindicating it.
The critical backlash is valid and warranted, imo (watch this if you want to know what the major issues are with Destiny). Once you hit level 20, you're forced into grinding for RNG loot (or for in-game currency so you can purchase the equivalent leveling gear) to get you up to level 26, at which you are -finally- permitted access to the first raid, which was touted as the highlight of the post-campaign experience. But between 20 and 26 there's not much else besides grinding missions, PvE or PvP bounties or PvP. It will be very interesting to see how many people are still playing Destiny next month and into November.
posted by longdaysjourney at 11:46 AM on September 23, 2014
The critical backlash is valid and warranted, imo (watch this if you want to know what the major issues are with Destiny). Once you hit level 20, you're forced into grinding for RNG loot (or for in-game currency so you can purchase the equivalent leveling gear) to get you up to level 26, at which you are -finally- permitted access to the first raid, which was touted as the highlight of the post-campaign experience. But between 20 and 26 there's not much else besides grinding missions, PvE or PvP bounties or PvP. It will be very interesting to see how many people are still playing Destiny next month and into November.
posted by longdaysjourney at 11:46 AM on September 23, 2014
there are tons and tons of people actually playing Destiny right now despite its flaws. Ultimately I think the numbers might end up vindicating it.
It's definitely meant to be a long-running franchise, with frequent paid content updates. That said, the game has sold pretty well, and it may be profitable on its own. In which case the question is whether it's merely profitable or some kind of ridiculous cash cow they can just keep milking for a decade. We'll see how the first DLC fares, when it comes out in December.
posted by aubilenon at 11:55 AM on September 23, 2014
It's definitely meant to be a long-running franchise, with frequent paid content updates. That said, the game has sold pretty well, and it may be profitable on its own. In which case the question is whether it's merely profitable or some kind of ridiculous cash cow they can just keep milking for a decade. We'll see how the first DLC fares, when it comes out in December.
posted by aubilenon at 11:55 AM on September 23, 2014
I have to imagine there were some people who put seven years of their lives into this project. Must be pretty depressing to have it not ever leave the nest.
posted by Chrysostom at 11:55 AM on September 23, 2014 [3 favorites]
posted by Chrysostom at 11:55 AM on September 23, 2014 [3 favorites]
The other thing that's happened is, in the last 7 years, the whole industry has shifted away from the original $15/month business model, and games that do well these days have alternatives to that model - and are designed around them.
Not really. If you look, the big MMOs are still subscription based. ARR head Naoki Yoshida has explained his own reasons for opposing FtP, which I agree with - he's pointed out that once an MMO goes FtP, it uncouples the revenue and user bases. This causes income to fluctuate, which ultimately leads to prioritization of income at the expense of content, and potentially gameplay (when free to play goes to pay to win.)
(To be fair, ARR does have a few pay add-ons, but they are minor, and one (purchasable character rerolls) was something that the fan base clamored for.)
posted by NoxAeternum at 11:57 AM on September 23, 2014
Not really. If you look, the big MMOs are still subscription based. ARR head Naoki Yoshida has explained his own reasons for opposing FtP, which I agree with - he's pointed out that once an MMO goes FtP, it uncouples the revenue and user bases. This causes income to fluctuate, which ultimately leads to prioritization of income at the expense of content, and potentially gameplay (when free to play goes to pay to win.)
(To be fair, ARR does have a few pay add-ons, but they are minor, and one (purchasable character rerolls) was something that the fan base clamored for.)
posted by NoxAeternum at 11:57 AM on September 23, 2014
I'd guess one of their big reasons (that they're not as likely to state publicly) is that they worried about competing with themselves and not getting enough customers they weren't stealing from WoW.
posted by jamjam at 11:59 AM on September 23, 2014
posted by jamjam at 11:59 AM on September 23, 2014
Once you hit level 20, you're forced into grinding for RNG loot (or for in-game currency so you can purchase the equivalent leveling gear) to get you up to level 26, at which you are -finally- permitted access to the first raid, which was touted as the highlight of the post-campaign experience.
Wow, that is a massive oversight. They better make the first DLC pack a "tock".
posted by NoxAeternum at 12:00 PM on September 23, 2014
Wow, that is a massive oversight. They better make the first DLC pack a "tock".
posted by NoxAeternum at 12:00 PM on September 23, 2014
No other MMO has ever recovered from a slide like that.
For a while there, it was a license to print money, and I don't think those days are coming back. I think the only real question is how many players does it take for WoW to remain profitable enough for Blizzard to keep bothering.
They've made a lot of changes to make casual WoW playing an actual thing - you can even raid now without having to be in a "raiding" guild. Gold buying is basically a thing of the past. And they've added a bunch of minigames to the engine (pet battles, etc.) as well.
Time will tell if these changes will be enough, I guess, but I suspect we'll see at least one more Xpac beyond WoD (due out in November).
posted by Pogo_Fuzzybutt at 12:02 PM on September 23, 2014
For a while there, it was a license to print money, and I don't think those days are coming back. I think the only real question is how many players does it take for WoW to remain profitable enough for Blizzard to keep bothering.
They've made a lot of changes to make casual WoW playing an actual thing - you can even raid now without having to be in a "raiding" guild. Gold buying is basically a thing of the past. And they've added a bunch of minigames to the engine (pet battles, etc.) as well.
Time will tell if these changes will be enough, I guess, but I suspect we'll see at least one more Xpac beyond WoD (due out in November).
posted by Pogo_Fuzzybutt at 12:02 PM on September 23, 2014
I wish they'd stop building games and start building worlds.
posted by BitterOldPunk at 12:04 PM on September 23, 2014 [11 favorites]
posted by BitterOldPunk at 12:04 PM on September 23, 2014 [11 favorites]
Someone please tell me that Rhode Island didn't back this one, too. *whimper*
posted by wenestvedt at 12:11 PM on September 23, 2014
posted by wenestvedt at 12:11 PM on September 23, 2014
Sticherbeast:
posted by charred husk at 12:16 PM on September 23, 2014 [3 favorites]
but there already was a successor to wow:Flagged for edition warring.
d&d 4e
posted by charred husk at 12:16 PM on September 23, 2014 [3 favorites]
I'm not saying that Destiny is underrated, or even necessarily good, it's just I've seen boards full of people mocking it but then going ahead and getting it and playing it and so forth. That sort of begrudging patronage, coupled with the chance of possible updates and improvements in the future, might end up saving it, is all.
I suppose it's admirable that WoW decided to axe a losing project instead of trying to push it out like Destiny, or WATCH_DOGS, or Titanfall, and making money with hype and then begrudging patronage. On the other hand, it's less admirable that they're not trying to create new IP. Maybe they should bring back the Lost Vikings.
posted by Apocryphon at 12:16 PM on September 23, 2014 [1 favorite]
I suppose it's admirable that WoW decided to axe a losing project instead of trying to push it out like Destiny, or WATCH_DOGS, or Titanfall, and making money with hype and then begrudging patronage. On the other hand, it's less admirable that they're not trying to create new IP. Maybe they should bring back the Lost Vikings.
posted by Apocryphon at 12:16 PM on September 23, 2014 [1 favorite]
Maybe they should bring back the Lost Vikings Blackthorne.
There we go.
posted by selfnoise at 12:18 PM on September 23, 2014
There we go.
posted by selfnoise at 12:18 PM on September 23, 2014
Reasonably Everything Happens: "Totally different thing. MtG, especially since Hasbro has taken over, is a juggernaut. Their differentiation of player types by formats and their online model have made it a total cash machine for them (and still amazingly popular among a lot of different types of people)."
Just off the top of my head:
Point is, MTG pretty much sucked all the oxygen out of the TCG space (pokemans and yugiohs not withstanding). It's too much of a juggernaut to allow other products, even from that same juggernaut.
posted by boo_radley at 12:24 PM on September 23, 2014
Just off the top of my head:
- netrunner
- maple story
- vampyre/jyhad
- dune
- battle... fighters? masters?
Point is, MTG pretty much sucked all the oxygen out of the TCG space (pokemans and yugiohs not withstanding). It's too much of a juggernaut to allow other products, even from that same juggernaut.
posted by boo_radley at 12:24 PM on September 23, 2014
Someone please tell me that Rhode Island didn't back this one, too. *whimper*
I'm not sure Rhode Island can afford the kind of budgets Blizzard can...
posted by kmz at 12:25 PM on September 23, 2014 [2 favorites]
I'm not sure Rhode Island can afford the kind of budgets Blizzard can...
posted by kmz at 12:25 PM on September 23, 2014 [2 favorites]
Subscriber graphs for many MMOs
From this chart, it seems like all MMOs are on a downward trend, subscription-wise. I didn't realize the genre was in a slump/decline. Where are those users going to?
posted by gwint at 12:27 PM on September 23, 2014
From this chart, it seems like all MMOs are on a downward trend, subscription-wise. I didn't realize the genre was in a slump/decline. Where are those users going to?
posted by gwint at 12:27 PM on September 23, 2014
battle... fighters? masters?
Duel Masters? That was their product designed for a younger crowd (to lure them into M:tG).
(I love and still play Magic a few times a week)
posted by Twain Device at 12:28 PM on September 23, 2014
Duel Masters? That was their product designed for a younger crowd (to lure them into M:tG).
(I love and still play Magic a few times a week)
posted by Twain Device at 12:28 PM on September 23, 2014
selfnoise: "Yeah the atmosphere of the game still is what it is. If you want something that feels more like Diablo 2, I'd actually recommend trying Path of Exile, it's surprisingly good."
PoE also has that supreme nerd-boner final fantasy style ring map of passive skills.
posted by boo_radley at 12:28 PM on September 23, 2014 [2 favorites]
PoE also has that supreme nerd-boner final fantasy style ring map of passive skills.
posted by boo_radley at 12:28 PM on September 23, 2014 [2 favorites]
From this chart, it seems like all MMOs are on a downward trend, subscription-wise.
That's some pretty aged data. MMO companies tend to be shyer about posting sub numbers these days, too. I'd be real curious what the numbers are for games that have come out in the last few years. Elder Scrolls Online, for example.
posted by restless_nomad at 12:30 PM on September 23, 2014
That's some pretty aged data. MMO companies tend to be shyer about posting sub numbers these days, too. I'd be real curious what the numbers are for games that have come out in the last few years. Elder Scrolls Online, for example.
posted by restless_nomad at 12:30 PM on September 23, 2014
selfnoise: "Yeah the atmosphere of the game still is what it is. If you want something that feels more like Diablo 2, I'd actually recommend trying Path of Exile, it's surprisingly good."
PoE also has that supreme nerd-boner final fantasy style ring map of passive skills.
Yeah, that skill chart... I actually said "What the F***" out loud when I first saw that and my wife came in to see that I was looking at a... chart.
The amazing thing is that it actually does work.
Subscriber graphs for many MMOs
From this chart, it seems like all MMOs are on a downward trend, subscription-wise. I didn't realize the genre was in a slump/decline. Where are those users going to?
DOTA? Who knows. That does seem to be the supreme time sink of the current age.
posted by selfnoise at 12:31 PM on September 23, 2014 [1 favorite]
PoE also has that supreme nerd-boner final fantasy style ring map of passive skills.
Yeah, that skill chart... I actually said "What the F***" out loud when I first saw that and my wife came in to see that I was looking at a... chart.
The amazing thing is that it actually does work.
Subscriber graphs for many MMOs
From this chart, it seems like all MMOs are on a downward trend, subscription-wise. I didn't realize the genre was in a slump/decline. Where are those users going to?
DOTA? Who knows. That does seem to be the supreme time sink of the current age.
posted by selfnoise at 12:31 PM on September 23, 2014 [1 favorite]
I didn't realize the genre was in a slump/decline. Where are those users going to?
Watching big MMOs fail is practically a sport these days. Not sure where they're going per se... probably to any of the big genres these days, be it MOBAs or FPSes.
(Meanwhile I still spend way too much time playing SWTOR.)
posted by kmz at 12:34 PM on September 23, 2014 [1 favorite]
Watching big MMOs fail is practically a sport these days. Not sure where they're going per se... probably to any of the big genres these days, be it MOBAs or FPSes.
(Meanwhile I still spend way too much time playing SWTOR.)
posted by kmz at 12:34 PM on September 23, 2014 [1 favorite]
restless_nomad: "Elder Scrolls Online, for example."
(shakes head sadly, emphatically)
posted by boo_radley at 12:34 PM on September 23, 2014 [6 favorites]
(shakes head sadly, emphatically)
posted by boo_radley at 12:34 PM on September 23, 2014 [6 favorites]
I sometimes think that the only company with a real theory of fun, still operating as a business, is Nintendo. Everyone else is just throwing money at the problem.
posted by effugas at 12:35 PM on September 23, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by effugas at 12:35 PM on September 23, 2014 [1 favorite]
All of The Young People® I know play DOTA. The WoW players I know are in their 30s to 40s.
posted by overeducated_alligator at 12:36 PM on September 23, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by overeducated_alligator at 12:36 PM on September 23, 2014 [1 favorite]
For a while there, it was a license to print money, and I don't think those days are coming back.
7MM subscribers @ $15 a month is more license than anyone else has at the moment. Nobody else is swinging a billion+ annually from a single game.
posted by Revvy at 12:39 PM on September 23, 2014
7MM subscribers @ $15 a month is more license than anyone else has at the moment. Nobody else is swinging a billion+ annually from a single game.
posted by Revvy at 12:39 PM on September 23, 2014
The problem with Destiny in three panels.
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 12:42 PM on September 23, 2014 [4 favorites]
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 12:42 PM on September 23, 2014 [4 favorites]
/me is still sore about Warcraft Adventures.
posted by octothorpe at 1:52 PM on September 23
You're picking at wounds so old I had forgotten I had them.
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 12:44 PM on September 23, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by octothorpe at 1:52 PM on September 23
You're picking at wounds so old I had forgotten I had them.
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 12:44 PM on September 23, 2014 [1 favorite]
I think the problem is literally nobody can compete with World of Warcraft through both inertia and through the amount of content that its long existence has given it, not even Blizzard. Every MMO gets compared to it and after a few months as The New Savior of the Genre, pretty much every MMO loses a ton of subscribers back to Warcraft or back to MMO forums where they bitch it's not old Everquest or SWG or whatever.
A lot of the MMO crowd is now people in their 30s and 40s chasing that first MMO thrill but you can never get it back because the world's not like that anymore.
And on the business side, most investors want to see huge returns, which means you have to swing for the fences and be the next Warcraft Killer, but the only thing that can kill Warcraft at this point is either slow bleeding or a monumental-level screwup on Blizzard's part.
posted by Ghostride The Whip at 12:46 PM on September 23, 2014
A lot of the MMO crowd is now people in their 30s and 40s chasing that first MMO thrill but you can never get it back because the world's not like that anymore.
And on the business side, most investors want to see huge returns, which means you have to swing for the fences and be the next Warcraft Killer, but the only thing that can kill Warcraft at this point is either slow bleeding or a monumental-level screwup on Blizzard's part.
posted by Ghostride The Whip at 12:46 PM on September 23, 2014
I suppose it's admirable that WoW decided to axe a losing project instead of trying to push it out like Destiny, or WATCH_DOGS, or Titanfall, and making money with hype and then begrudging patronage. On the other hand, it's less admirable that they're not trying to create new IP.
I feel like most AAA game development studios should be trying more low-stakes stuff when they branch out into new genres and new IP. It's hard enough to spend years working on a sequel to a game like Half Life where the core feel and concept is already something established. Something on the scale of a fan mod has a better chance of finding a new gameplay mechanic or other kind of twist that can be eventually form the basis of a new AAA game. If the big studios spent more of their money on small risks rather than giant ones, they would probably end up with more ways to branch out and avoid running an established franchise into the ground.
posted by burnmp3s at 12:49 PM on September 23, 2014 [2 favorites]
I feel like most AAA game development studios should be trying more low-stakes stuff when they branch out into new genres and new IP. It's hard enough to spend years working on a sequel to a game like Half Life where the core feel and concept is already something established. Something on the scale of a fan mod has a better chance of finding a new gameplay mechanic or other kind of twist that can be eventually form the basis of a new AAA game. If the big studios spent more of their money on small risks rather than giant ones, they would probably end up with more ways to branch out and avoid running an established franchise into the ground.
posted by burnmp3s at 12:49 PM on September 23, 2014 [2 favorites]
Also, NetRunner is shaping up to be a true contender to M:tG. Its not there yet, player base wise, but in a couple of years I think you'll see as much of a community around that as around M:tG.
I can't tell if this is a joke about the old, failed 90s CCG or if you're talking about Android:Netrunner which isn't really in the same class of game as M:TG.
Honestly, for all my years of playing/following CCGs, the only thing I have yet seen that could dethrone M:TG is Hearthstone.
posted by griphus at 12:51 PM on September 23, 2014 [3 favorites]
I can't tell if this is a joke about the old, failed 90s CCG or if you're talking about Android:Netrunner which isn't really in the same class of game as M:TG.
Honestly, for all my years of playing/following CCGs, the only thing I have yet seen that could dethrone M:TG is Hearthstone.
posted by griphus at 12:51 PM on September 23, 2014 [3 favorites]
I didn't realize the genre was in a slump/decline.
The MMO genre is definitely in a decline. That chart I posted is incomplete (more on the source) but the traditional MMO is basically over other than a few more years of inertia in WoW. There is no successor to World of Warcraft, those millions of people didn't go to Eve Online or Elder Scrolls Online or whatever. They stopped subscribing to MMOs. Blizzard's cancelling Titan is just more realization that market is over.
My hopeful wish is some of those users went to Minecraft. The original promise of MMOs like Ultima Online was open living worlds where you could do emergently fun stuff in them. Theme-park style MMOs like WoW ended up dominating. But Minecraft has millions of players and has all that wonderful sandbox stuff that was lost in the MMO genre. (Pathfinder Online is trying to be a new open MMO, but my guess is it's going to be small.)
Another place a lot of MMO player energy went to is free to play games, and cheap indie games, and mobile games, etc. One bad thing about WoW's dominance is that people who played it tended to play no other games. We're in a huge renaissance of diverse game types and I suspect some of it is fuelled by all those folks who stopped playing one single game. At least, that's my personal story.
posted by Nelson at 12:51 PM on September 23, 2014 [3 favorites]
The MMO genre is definitely in a decline. That chart I posted is incomplete (more on the source) but the traditional MMO is basically over other than a few more years of inertia in WoW. There is no successor to World of Warcraft, those millions of people didn't go to Eve Online or Elder Scrolls Online or whatever. They stopped subscribing to MMOs. Blizzard's cancelling Titan is just more realization that market is over.
My hopeful wish is some of those users went to Minecraft. The original promise of MMOs like Ultima Online was open living worlds where you could do emergently fun stuff in them. Theme-park style MMOs like WoW ended up dominating. But Minecraft has millions of players and has all that wonderful sandbox stuff that was lost in the MMO genre. (Pathfinder Online is trying to be a new open MMO, but my guess is it's going to be small.)
Another place a lot of MMO player energy went to is free to play games, and cheap indie games, and mobile games, etc. One bad thing about WoW's dominance is that people who played it tended to play no other games. We're in a huge renaissance of diverse game types and I suspect some of it is fuelled by all those folks who stopped playing one single game. At least, that's my personal story.
posted by Nelson at 12:51 PM on September 23, 2014 [3 favorites]
BitterOldPunk: "I wish they'd stop building games and start building worlds."
Spoken like a true Elder Scrolls fan!
posted by vanar sena at 12:57 PM on September 23, 2014
Spoken like a true Elder Scrolls fan!
posted by vanar sena at 12:57 PM on September 23, 2014
We're in a huge renaissance of diverse game types and I suspect some of it is fuelled by all those folks who stopped playing one single game. At least, that's my personal story.
I suspect you are right. At least, it is true in my experience among the people I know. I still have a WoW sub, and play sometimes. But mostly, my gaming is one of the 300 other games I have got on Steam or Kickstarter or whatever. I just don't have any desire to spend 30 hours a week raiding and wiping anymore.
posted by Pogo_Fuzzybutt at 1:05 PM on September 23, 2014
I suspect you are right. At least, it is true in my experience among the people I know. I still have a WoW sub, and play sometimes. But mostly, my gaming is one of the 300 other games I have got on Steam or Kickstarter or whatever. I just don't have any desire to spend 30 hours a week raiding and wiping anymore.
posted by Pogo_Fuzzybutt at 1:05 PM on September 23, 2014
Ha. I played DOTA when it was still a mod.
posted by effugas at 1:07 PM on September 23, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by effugas at 1:07 PM on September 23, 2014 [1 favorite]
The original promise of MMOs like Ultima Online was open living worlds where you could do emergently fun stuff in them.
Oh man, the history of gaming is littered with overpromising about the notion of creative possibility in open-world games. I haven't played Minecraft but I hear good things about it; I've also seen some fun things people do in crafty games/mods like LittleBigPlanet and Garry's Mod. Unfortunately for me, most of these things are necessarily "mechanical" -- like creating a computer using the building blocks of the game or level engine. That's cool and I respect the work that goes into it.
But what breaks my heart over and over are the empty promises for games like Spore and Black & White, which promised a more organic sort of exploration of life, morality and landscape. It's likely that this sort of thing will either never be possible in a game, or will only become possible beyond some as-yet-unknown horizon of computer modeling or AI.
posted by overeducated_alligator at 1:13 PM on September 23, 2014 [2 favorites]
Oh man, the history of gaming is littered with overpromising about the notion of creative possibility in open-world games. I haven't played Minecraft but I hear good things about it; I've also seen some fun things people do in crafty games/mods like LittleBigPlanet and Garry's Mod. Unfortunately for me, most of these things are necessarily "mechanical" -- like creating a computer using the building blocks of the game or level engine. That's cool and I respect the work that goes into it.
But what breaks my heart over and over are the empty promises for games like Spore and Black & White, which promised a more organic sort of exploration of life, morality and landscape. It's likely that this sort of thing will either never be possible in a game, or will only become possible beyond some as-yet-unknown horizon of computer modeling or AI.
posted by overeducated_alligator at 1:13 PM on September 23, 2014 [2 favorites]
I feel like most AAA game development studios should be trying more low-stakes stuff when they branch out into new genres and new IP.
While on the one hand I agree with this because I'd like to see lot of new IP with AAA-ish production values, trying low stakes stuff does come with its own set of risks. People right this second are out for Tim Schafer's head on a stake after DoubleFine cut bait on their Dwarf Fortress in Space game. I mean, I guess DoubleFine's not really AAA, but it's pretty close, and they didn't so much cut bait entirely as release a final version now instead of keeping it in continuous development for years as promised, but people are acting betrayed in ways that could easily hurt the company's bottom line in the future (talk of boycotts and Serious Discussion of the fundamental flaws of the studio's business model). I worry that no product from a AAA-level developer could ever really be seen as low stakes in the way where if it failed, or just didn't meet expectations, it wouldn't be immediately denounced as a horrible flop created by fools and knaves.
posted by Copronymus at 1:15 PM on September 23, 2014
While on the one hand I agree with this because I'd like to see lot of new IP with AAA-ish production values, trying low stakes stuff does come with its own set of risks. People right this second are out for Tim Schafer's head on a stake after DoubleFine cut bait on their Dwarf Fortress in Space game. I mean, I guess DoubleFine's not really AAA, but it's pretty close, and they didn't so much cut bait entirely as release a final version now instead of keeping it in continuous development for years as promised, but people are acting betrayed in ways that could easily hurt the company's bottom line in the future (talk of boycotts and Serious Discussion of the fundamental flaws of the studio's business model). I worry that no product from a AAA-level developer could ever really be seen as low stakes in the way where if it failed, or just didn't meet expectations, it wouldn't be immediately denounced as a horrible flop created by fools and knaves.
posted by Copronymus at 1:15 PM on September 23, 2014
From this chart, it seems like all MMOs are on a downward trend, subscription-wise. I didn't realize the genre was in a slump/decline. Where are those users going to?
My guess is that more socially oriented gamers are moving toward less grindy PvP or co-op. My partner and I are no longer doing WoW after the great "boy's trip" was announced, but it's a bit annoying that to play together in an MMO, we need to have equivalently leveled toons in equivalent zones. I don't have the time or the interest to get onto the daily or experience treadmill again.
I suspect also that misogyny, harassment, and lack of support is gradually turning off roleplay-oriented players in many games.
And I think part of it is that the shortcuts and cliches of trying to design hundreds of hours of content in a massive world are starting to become obvious. The handful of unique quests per zone in Pandaria and Cataclysm don't make up for the dozen "kill x of y (and collect z)" quests.
posted by CBrachyrhynchos at 1:15 PM on September 23, 2014 [1 favorite]
My guess is that more socially oriented gamers are moving toward less grindy PvP or co-op. My partner and I are no longer doing WoW after the great "boy's trip" was announced, but it's a bit annoying that to play together in an MMO, we need to have equivalently leveled toons in equivalent zones. I don't have the time or the interest to get onto the daily or experience treadmill again.
I suspect also that misogyny, harassment, and lack of support is gradually turning off roleplay-oriented players in many games.
And I think part of it is that the shortcuts and cliches of trying to design hundreds of hours of content in a massive world are starting to become obvious. The handful of unique quests per zone in Pandaria and Cataclysm don't make up for the dozen "kill x of y (and collect z)" quests.
posted by CBrachyrhynchos at 1:15 PM on September 23, 2014 [1 favorite]
I got out of WoW right before the player peak in that subscribers chart. I first quit at the end of Wrath of the Lich King, I enjoyed levelling up during Cataclysm, and then I confirmed my decision to quit after progressing back to raid-level. I played a healer.
The way they were tweaking the game difficulty and reward structures made it obvious they were catering the game to appeal to people who, on the main hand, were not core gamers and just wanted to click-to-win, and on the off hand, the elite 0.001% world-first competition guilds who served as thought leaders.
They alienated their middle class, (soft)core gamers who did not want to devote their entire lives to getting into a top-end raiding guild, in order to attract non-gamers.
"...it's really refreshing to work on a game where I don't have to worry whether someone's grandmother can pick it up or not." - Greg Street
I quit because I kept seeing the same pattern every expansion cycle. It was fun on release when the introductory end-game content was tough as nails, which they proceeded nerf into faceroll until the challenging content is only available to people willing to play at least 12 hours a day. I was in a casual raiding guild, and just the raiding session would often last for 8 hours. That's not counting the endless grinding to stock up consumables and build up crafted gear individually.
And so, the middle class left.
posted by I-Write-Essays at 1:18 PM on September 23, 2014 [5 favorites]
The way they were tweaking the game difficulty and reward structures made it obvious they were catering the game to appeal to people who, on the main hand, were not core gamers and just wanted to click-to-win, and on the off hand, the elite 0.001% world-first competition guilds who served as thought leaders.
They alienated their middle class, (soft)core gamers who did not want to devote their entire lives to getting into a top-end raiding guild, in order to attract non-gamers.
"...it's really refreshing to work on a game where I don't have to worry whether someone's grandmother can pick it up or not." - Greg Street
I quit because I kept seeing the same pattern every expansion cycle. It was fun on release when the introductory end-game content was tough as nails, which they proceeded nerf into faceroll until the challenging content is only available to people willing to play at least 12 hours a day. I was in a casual raiding guild, and just the raiding session would often last for 8 hours. That's not counting the endless grinding to stock up consumables and build up crafted gear individually.
And so, the middle class left.
posted by I-Write-Essays at 1:18 PM on September 23, 2014 [5 favorites]
Something on the scale of a fan mod has a better chance of finding a new gameplay mechanic or other kind of twist that can be eventually form the basis of a new AAA game.
AAA studios do that, except instead of engineering new experiments themselves, they take popular existing fan mods and then buy them out.
posted by Apocryphon at 1:19 PM on September 23, 2014
AAA studios do that, except instead of engineering new experiments themselves, they take popular existing fan mods and then buy them out.
posted by Apocryphon at 1:19 PM on September 23, 2014
(Anyone played Wildstar? Is it decent? It doesn't seem to be taking over the world.)
It wasn't decent enough for me to get over my perpetual mad-on at NCSoft for killing City of Heroes. I got in on the last couple of days of beta, and it seemed mostly like the more whimsical elements of WoW, reskinned for skiffy, and that wasn't enough to suck me in.
posted by Halloween Jack at 1:33 PM on September 23, 2014 [2 favorites]
It wasn't decent enough for me to get over my perpetual mad-on at NCSoft for killing City of Heroes. I got in on the last couple of days of beta, and it seemed mostly like the more whimsical elements of WoW, reskinned for skiffy, and that wasn't enough to suck me in.
posted by Halloween Jack at 1:33 PM on September 23, 2014 [2 favorites]
tocts: "Didn't Pokémon and Yu-Gi-Oh do monstrous business?
My impression, and this is admittedly from game store owners (are there published stats?) is that both of those have had generally good runs, but orders of magnitude less sales than Magic. Meanwhile, the '90s through now are littered with the remains of what must have been a couple dozen big attempts to make "the next Magic"."
I still have some Rage and The Crow cards. LOL...
posted by symbioid at 1:40 PM on September 23, 2014
My impression, and this is admittedly from game store owners (are there published stats?) is that both of those have had generally good runs, but orders of magnitude less sales than Magic. Meanwhile, the '90s through now are littered with the remains of what must have been a couple dozen big attempts to make "the next Magic"."
I still have some Rage and The Crow cards. LOL...
posted by symbioid at 1:40 PM on September 23, 2014
it's a bit annoying that to play together in an MMO, we need to have equivalently leveled toons in equivalent zones.
This is why I miss City of Heroes so very much. No MMO has been able to replicate the ease of teaming in that game. Level differences? Who cares, mentoring means we're all playing at the same level. No tank? Who cares, we'll either outlive the enemy or burn 'em down so fast they won't know whether to shit or go blind. Team of nothing but ranged DPS? Fuckin' A, this is gonna be a wrecking ball of JUSTICE! It was the polar opposite of the other MMO I started around the same time, FFXI.
posted by Sternmeyer at 1:41 PM on September 23, 2014 [3 favorites]
This is why I miss City of Heroes so very much. No MMO has been able to replicate the ease of teaming in that game. Level differences? Who cares, mentoring means we're all playing at the same level. No tank? Who cares, we'll either outlive the enemy or burn 'em down so fast they won't know whether to shit or go blind. Team of nothing but ranged DPS? Fuckin' A, this is gonna be a wrecking ball of JUSTICE! It was the polar opposite of the other MMO I started around the same time, FFXI.
posted by Sternmeyer at 1:41 PM on September 23, 2014 [3 favorites]
I'm still holding out hope for Heroes of the Storm, but I'm not optimistic. PVP was an unbalanced mess when I left WoW (Lich King) and all about the gear. I tried Hearthstone and liked it but deleted it when I saw it was pretty much a pay-to-play treadmill if you wanted to have any chance of competing. Blizzard makes games that grab you hard, but I don't have the time or willingness to grind for gear, and I'm not interested in simply purchasing epic items. I guess I've moved out of their demographic.
posted by peterdarbyshire at 1:41 PM on September 23, 2014
posted by peterdarbyshire at 1:41 PM on September 23, 2014
I still have some Rage and The Crow cards. LOL...
Cleaning out my old apartment, I found a deck of the Doctor Who CCG from 1996.
posted by griphus at 1:42 PM on September 23, 2014 [1 favorite]
Cleaning out my old apartment, I found a deck of the Doctor Who CCG from 1996.
posted by griphus at 1:42 PM on September 23, 2014 [1 favorite]
Hearthstone and liked it but deleted it when I saw it was pretty much a pay-to-play treadmill if you wanted to have any chance of competing.
That's not really accurate. It's harder to play with more basic cards but skilled players have taken free to play decks to the legendary ranks.
posted by Drinky Die at 1:43 PM on September 23, 2014 [4 favorites]
That's not really accurate. It's harder to play with more basic cards but skilled players have taken free to play decks to the legendary ranks.
posted by Drinky Die at 1:43 PM on September 23, 2014 [4 favorites]
And on the business side, most investors want to see huge returns, which means you have to swing for the fences and be the next Warcraft Killer, but the only thing that can kill Warcraft at this point is either slow bleeding or a monumental-level screwup on Blizzard's part.
Unfortunately, Warcraft has long been dead. Its name mostly refers to WoW nowadays, which has used most available storylines in the... world of Warcraft. I can understand why of course, but just as Warcraft Adventures died with the mainstream adventure genre, Warcraft suffered for the diminution of RTSs and the extraordinary (monetary) success of WoW.
.
posted by ersatz at 1:45 PM on September 23, 2014
Unfortunately, Warcraft has long been dead. Its name mostly refers to WoW nowadays, which has used most available storylines in the... world of Warcraft. I can understand why of course, but just as Warcraft Adventures died with the mainstream adventure genre, Warcraft suffered for the diminution of RTSs and the extraordinary (monetary) success of WoW.
.
posted by ersatz at 1:45 PM on September 23, 2014
This is why I miss City of Heroes so very much. No MMO has been able to replicate the ease of teaming in that game. Level differences? Who cares, mentoring means we're all playing at the same level. No tank? Who cares, we'll either outlive the enemy or burn 'em down so fast they won't know whether to shit or go blind. Team of nothing but ranged DPS? Fuckin' A, this is gonna be a wrecking ball of JUSTICE! It was the polar opposite of the other MMO I started around the same time, FFXI.
Oh god yes. CoH was pretty much MMO perfection for me and my mates as we could all play at different speeds and to our own preferences in class and build, and STILL group and have fun. It was basically a hardcore MMO for people who had other things to do in life as well as play games.
God I miss it.
posted by garius at 1:47 PM on September 23, 2014 [3 favorites]
Oh god yes. CoH was pretty much MMO perfection for me and my mates as we could all play at different speeds and to our own preferences in class and build, and STILL group and have fun. It was basically a hardcore MMO for people who had other things to do in life as well as play games.
God I miss it.
posted by garius at 1:47 PM on September 23, 2014 [3 favorites]
Hearthstone and liked it but deleted it when I saw it was pretty much a pay-to-play treadmill if you wanted to have any chance of competing.
That's not really accurate. It's harder to play with more basic cards but skilled players have taken free to play decks to the legendary ranks.
I play casually and don't have any issues with not spending money... honestly if you have balanced your decks for the mana curve you are probably going to win a bunch of matches since a lot of players the computer matches me with just have no idea what they are doing.
My friend who got me into this swears by the Arena mode for getting a ton of stuff and also hasn't paid a dime, but I haven't played Arena yet. And you can use the crafting system to maximize your return on expert packs you buy with your gold (that you get from beating up sill players in the ranked mode and completing quests).
posted by selfnoise at 1:48 PM on September 23, 2014 [4 favorites]
That's not really accurate. It's harder to play with more basic cards but skilled players have taken free to play decks to the legendary ranks.
I play casually and don't have any issues with not spending money... honestly if you have balanced your decks for the mana curve you are probably going to win a bunch of matches since a lot of players the computer matches me with just have no idea what they are doing.
My friend who got me into this swears by the Arena mode for getting a ton of stuff and also hasn't paid a dime, but I haven't played Arena yet. And you can use the crafting system to maximize your return on expert packs you buy with your gold (that you get from beating up sill players in the ranked mode and completing quests).
posted by selfnoise at 1:48 PM on September 23, 2014 [4 favorites]
The way they were tweaking the game difficulty and reward structures made it obvious they were catering the game to appeal to people who, on the main hand, were not core gamers and just wanted to click-to-win, and on the off hand, the elite 0.001% world-first competition guilds who served as thought leaders.
Here's one of the big things that alienated me as an occasionally raiding player through Wrath. Once upon a time, I loved five-man tanking, which demanded aggro management, communicating mob priority, keeping an eye on party resources, delegation of crowd control, and attention to how to pull, isolate, and position mobs.
None of which mattered in the blitz dungeons of Cata, which were primarily an exercise in mashing buttons while running through everything.
posted by CBrachyrhynchos at 1:49 PM on September 23, 2014
Here's one of the big things that alienated me as an occasionally raiding player through Wrath. Once upon a time, I loved five-man tanking, which demanded aggro management, communicating mob priority, keeping an eye on party resources, delegation of crowd control, and attention to how to pull, isolate, and position mobs.
None of which mattered in the blitz dungeons of Cata, which were primarily an exercise in mashing buttons while running through everything.
posted by CBrachyrhynchos at 1:49 PM on September 23, 2014
I'm not saying that Destiny is underrated, or even necessarily good, it's just I've seen boards full of people mocking it but then going ahead and getting it and playing it and so forth. That sort of begrudging patronage, coupled with the chance of possible updates and improvements in the future, might end up saving it, is all.
Activision picked a great launch window - there's not really that much competition right now for Destiny in the triple-A game space. Will it have staying power though, especially after the other major fall titles are released? The production values are spectacular and the gunplay is fantastic, but the core problems with the game are too great for me to ignore and I sold my copy to Best Buy yesterday. I have a feeling the game will be great next year as an "Ultimate" version, after they revamp the loot and leveling system and with the cut DLC story content included. But right now Destiny just seems painfully unfinished and in desperate need of retooling.
posted by longdaysjourney at 1:51 PM on September 23, 2014
Activision picked a great launch window - there's not really that much competition right now for Destiny in the triple-A game space. Will it have staying power though, especially after the other major fall titles are released? The production values are spectacular and the gunplay is fantastic, but the core problems with the game are too great for me to ignore and I sold my copy to Best Buy yesterday. I have a feeling the game will be great next year as an "Ultimate" version, after they revamp the loot and leveling system and with the cut DLC story content included. But right now Destiny just seems painfully unfinished and in desperate need of retooling.
posted by longdaysjourney at 1:51 PM on September 23, 2014
...honestly if you have balanced your decks for the mana curve you are probably going to win a bunch of matches since a lot of players the computer matches me with just have no idea what they are doing.
That's been my experience as well. I also know some people super-into Hearthstone (like Excel spreadsheets manually tracking stats into it) and they don't pay.
Although I find it a little unnerving defending Hearthstone. It's like "no, no, these cigarettes don't make you cough at all. They're really smooth."
posted by griphus at 1:51 PM on September 23, 2014 [3 favorites]
That's been my experience as well. I also know some people super-into Hearthstone (like Excel spreadsheets manually tracking stats into it) and they don't pay.
Although I find it a little unnerving defending Hearthstone. It's like "no, no, these cigarettes don't make you cough at all. They're really smooth."
posted by griphus at 1:51 PM on September 23, 2014 [3 favorites]
I was primary healer in a top tier raid guild when I left wow. By the end, It wasn't fun, just obligation and grind. I moved to gw2, which shared a lot of the things I loved about CoH, like levels not mattering, and non linear gameplay.
But recently, ncsoft nerfed the hell out of gw2, and what they didn't nerf they gated. I love these type of games, but I think they are all doomed to either die or become Korean style grinders. Nobody seems willing to make healthy profits, everyone wants to make Lamborghini level profits, players be damned.
posted by dejah420 at 1:57 PM on September 23, 2014 [1 favorite]
But recently, ncsoft nerfed the hell out of gw2, and what they didn't nerf they gated. I love these type of games, but I think they are all doomed to either die or become Korean style grinders. Nobody seems willing to make healthy profits, everyone wants to make Lamborghini level profits, players be damned.
posted by dejah420 at 1:57 PM on September 23, 2014 [1 favorite]
Bah, I wanted to see Titan. I trust Blizzard that it wasn't what they wanted, but I still wanted to see it.
I've played, er, lots of WoW. I still subscribe, but Skyrim took a big chunk of time away from it. And now I'm playing Elder Scrolls, and enjoying it lots. I don't think any single game is going to dominate my time like, say, the first 3 years of WoW did. That's probably a good thing, tbh.
I've got Wasteland 2 that I haven't started, and a few new books, and then there'll be Torment, Tides of Numenera...
posted by Ambient Echo at 2:19 PM on September 23, 2014
I've played, er, lots of WoW. I still subscribe, but Skyrim took a big chunk of time away from it. And now I'm playing Elder Scrolls, and enjoying it lots. I don't think any single game is going to dominate my time like, say, the first 3 years of WoW did. That's probably a good thing, tbh.
I've got Wasteland 2 that I haven't started, and a few new books, and then there'll be Torment, Tides of Numenera...
posted by Ambient Echo at 2:19 PM on September 23, 2014
I'm still holding out hope for Heroes of the Storm, but I'm not optimistic.
I've played about 10–15 hours of the HotS alpha. It's very good. (Nothing at all like WoW PvP, which never co uld be good because they couldn't balance the game solely for PvP.) HotS plays a whole lot like LoL or DotA 2. The primary change is they simplified a lot of game mechanics: removing last hitting entirely, removing gold and item purchases entirely, and sharing XP across your team. They added some complexity back in the maps, many more things happening with map events and buffs and stuff. I think it will be a strong contender in the new crop of MOBAs, although I have no idea how well it will compete with the established games.
posted by Nelson at 2:22 PM on September 23, 2014
I've played about 10–15 hours of the HotS alpha. It's very good. (Nothing at all like WoW PvP, which never co uld be good because they couldn't balance the game solely for PvP.) HotS plays a whole lot like LoL or DotA 2. The primary change is they simplified a lot of game mechanics: removing last hitting entirely, removing gold and item purchases entirely, and sharing XP across your team. They added some complexity back in the maps, many more things happening with map events and buffs and stuff. I think it will be a strong contender in the new crop of MOBAs, although I have no idea how well it will compete with the established games.
posted by Nelson at 2:22 PM on September 23, 2014
I have a feeling the game will be great next year as an "Ultimate" version
Yeah, but I'm sure they'd much rather be calling it the GOTY edition.
posted by aubilenon at 2:23 PM on September 23, 2014
Yeah, but I'm sure they'd much rather be calling it the GOTY edition.
posted by aubilenon at 2:23 PM on September 23, 2014
If the big studios spent more of their money on small risks rather than giant ones, they would probably end up with more ways to branch out and avoid running an established franchise into the ground.
I think this is actually the first time in my life that I've heard someone in an online discussion suggest that the big AAA corporations are way too innovative and need to be more cookie-cutter, instead of complaining how all the products are clones.
I get what you mean, and I'm not arguing with you, just for a moment it felt like I'd stepped into backwards-world :-)
posted by anonymisc at 2:44 PM on September 23, 2014
I think this is actually the first time in my life that I've heard someone in an online discussion suggest that the big AAA corporations are way too innovative and need to be more cookie-cutter, instead of complaining how all the products are clones.
I get what you mean, and I'm not arguing with you, just for a moment it felt like I'd stepped into backwards-world :-)
posted by anonymisc at 2:44 PM on September 23, 2014
Was there any clear answer as to what Titan was supposed to be, other than a lot of grandiose marketing speak about "new property," "wider than WoW," and "will not compete with WoW?"
posted by CBrachyrhynchos at 2:49 PM on September 23, 2014
posted by CBrachyrhynchos at 2:49 PM on September 23, 2014
but there already was a successor to wow:
d&d 4e
lol good burn man
This has always been a incoherent, bordering on silly criticism, since if 4e was like anything it was like SRPGs like XCom or Fire Emblem; but even more so now, since we have a perfect video game version of 4e and it's Divinity: Original Sin. And it's brilliant.
Behold the glowing pixels
all that remains
of the dreams of edition warriors
posted by Sebmojo at 3:33 PM on September 23, 2014 [2 favorites]
d&d 4e
lol good burn man
This has always been a incoherent, bordering on silly criticism, since if 4e was like anything it was like SRPGs like XCom or Fire Emblem; but even more so now, since we have a perfect video game version of 4e and it's Divinity: Original Sin. And it's brilliant.
Behold the glowing pixels
all that remains
of the dreams of edition warriors
posted by Sebmojo at 3:33 PM on September 23, 2014 [2 favorites]
CBrachyrynchos: what Titan was is all rumor. But this TitanFocus blog post does a good job rounding up a bunch of them from April 2013, just before it all fell apart. Here's another rumor roundup from February 2013. It's not a very coherent picture, which is either a reflection the game itself or more likely the quality of the rumor leaks. Blizzard had a hugely secretive process around the game, the only reason we know as much as we do is someone leaked Blizzard's secret product roadmap which included the name, which helped cement various rumors that had been swirling. The AAA developers I know mostly know a lot about their friends' projects because everyone gossips. Not so much with Titan.
Not sure anyone's said this before, but info from Blizzard is starting to come out in the run-up to BlizzCon, their fan event in November. I see this announcement today as them clearing the decks so no one asks any embarrassing questions about dead projects at the con.
posted by Nelson at 3:38 PM on September 23, 2014
Not sure anyone's said this before, but info from Blizzard is starting to come out in the run-up to BlizzCon, their fan event in November. I see this announcement today as them clearing the decks so no one asks any embarrassing questions about dead projects at the con.
posted by Nelson at 3:38 PM on September 23, 2014
Man, I just seriously want to know what this game was about and what was supposed to be innovative about it, even if it didn't get off the ground.
posted by SpacemanStix at 4:14 PM on September 23, 2014
posted by SpacemanStix at 4:14 PM on September 23, 2014
SpacemanStix: I just skimmed through PolyGon's article Everything we knew about Blizzard's canceled MMO, Titan.
When I ignore the hype machine parts (dream team of developers, they're very excited, it'll be big, they learned a lot from WoW, etc), here's what's left:
When I ignore the hype machine parts (dream team of developers, they're very excited, it'll be big, they learned a lot from WoW, etc), here's what's left:
- "sci-fi, near-future, post-apocalyptic and historical" influences
- unlikely to be a subscription-based MMORPG
I am trying to figure out how much money went down the drain over the 7 years. Any figures?
posted by vortexofdoom at 5:17 PM on September 23, 2014
posted by vortexofdoom at 5:17 PM on September 23, 2014
While on the one hand I agree with this because I'd like to see lot of new IP with AAA-ish production values, trying low stakes stuff does come with its own set of risks. People right this second are out for Tim Schafer's head on a stake after DoubleFine cut bait on their Dwarf Fortress in Space game.
The part I disagree with in that particular situation is that they charged $25 for not really playable alpha version of the game, and according to Tim Schafer that was intended to be able to pay for five years of development time before the "final" version. It's basically like running a Kickstarter, not reaching the funding goal but still taking everyone's money, and then not actually delivering a finished game. So I do think that particular project was mostly a bad idea in terms of business model. If it takes over a year and a half for a professional development team to get a game concept to the point where it is fun to play, then that's probably not low stakes enough to do it that way. There are plenty of indie developers that use less time and resources to create games that are worth buying.
posted by burnmp3s at 5:56 PM on September 23, 2014
The part I disagree with in that particular situation is that they charged $25 for not really playable alpha version of the game, and according to Tim Schafer that was intended to be able to pay for five years of development time before the "final" version. It's basically like running a Kickstarter, not reaching the funding goal but still taking everyone's money, and then not actually delivering a finished game. So I do think that particular project was mostly a bad idea in terms of business model. If it takes over a year and a half for a professional development team to get a game concept to the point where it is fun to play, then that's probably not low stakes enough to do it that way. There are plenty of indie developers that use less time and resources to create games that are worth buying.
posted by burnmp3s at 5:56 PM on September 23, 2014
It would be interesting if they announced Titan's launch at Blizzcon. "Eh, we just didn't feel like dealing with the usual release hassle."
posted by underflow at 6:01 PM on September 23, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by underflow at 6:01 PM on September 23, 2014 [1 favorite]
I haven't seen any numbers reported on Titan financials. In 2012 they had 100 developers, up to 150 in 2013 (unsourced). Total stab in the dark: 300 developer-years times $200k / developer (including salary and overhead) = $60M. Very low confidence in that number, but I'd guess somewhere between $20M – $100M.
Blizzard's revenues are on the order of $4B / year.
For comparison, Elder Scrolls Online is widely rumored to have cost $200M, although that is disputed. Star Wars Online was $200M, and GTA V was $265M (source). Those numbers include marketing costs, and Blizzard presumably never hired up to the 500+ staffing level you'd need to actually finish a game of the scale Titan was supposed to be. So it seems very likely they didn't get near the $200M level.
posted by Nelson at 6:02 PM on September 23, 2014
Blizzard's revenues are on the order of $4B / year.
For comparison, Elder Scrolls Online is widely rumored to have cost $200M, although that is disputed. Star Wars Online was $200M, and GTA V was $265M (source). Those numbers include marketing costs, and Blizzard presumably never hired up to the 500+ staffing level you'd need to actually finish a game of the scale Titan was supposed to be. So it seems very likely they didn't get near the $200M level.
posted by Nelson at 6:02 PM on September 23, 2014
This has always been a incoherent, bordering on silly criticism, since if 4e was like anything it was like SRPGs like XCom or Fire Emblem; but even more so now, since we have a perfect video game version of 4e and it's Divinity: Original Sin. And it's brilliant.
Oh, I was just kidding. I like 4E, and I was just making fun of the cliches about it.
And when I get some free time, I'll check out Divinity: Original Sin!
posted by Sticherbeast at 6:06 PM on September 23, 2014
Oh, I was just kidding. I like 4E, and I was just making fun of the cliches about it.
And when I get some free time, I'll check out Divinity: Original Sin!
posted by Sticherbeast at 6:06 PM on September 23, 2014
For a while there, it was a license to print money, and I don't think those days are coming back.
7MM subscribers @ $15 a month is more license than anyone else has at the moment. Nobody else is swinging a billion+ annually from a single game.
Total stab in the dark: 300 developer-years times $200k / developer (including salary and overhead) = $60M.
World of Warcraft has grossed about $10B over its lifetime. The next highest grossing game after that is Call of Duty: Black Ops at $1.5B. Obviously, revenues aren't the measure of a great game, but for Blizzard, the success of WoW becomes a kind of a trap. Think about it: 2014 WoW, at 7M subscribers, in one year will gross almost as much as the second most successful video game in history. So despite all of the comments about declining subscriber bases, it is is *still* a license to print money. The point Nelson makes about the cost of development of Titan is spot on. If we assume $60M is the right number, that is like 17 days worth of 2014 revenues for WoW. Activision is a publicly traded company and has shareholders; canceling Titan might be the most financially responsible thing they can do, rather than bleed off WoW subscribers.
Having said all of that, I played *cough* quite a lot of WoW between 2005 and 2010 *cough* and was really curious about Titan. Like some of the other commenters, I'm now a little burned out and cynical about the content. For me, the Burning Crusade and Wrath of the Lich King expansions were peak WoW. If Blizzard could recapture that magic for me in a new MMORPG, I'd be there in a heartbeat.
posted by kovacs at 7:52 PM on September 23, 2014 [1 favorite]
7MM subscribers @ $15 a month is more license than anyone else has at the moment. Nobody else is swinging a billion+ annually from a single game.
Total stab in the dark: 300 developer-years times $200k / developer (including salary and overhead) = $60M.
World of Warcraft has grossed about $10B over its lifetime. The next highest grossing game after that is Call of Duty: Black Ops at $1.5B. Obviously, revenues aren't the measure of a great game, but for Blizzard, the success of WoW becomes a kind of a trap. Think about it: 2014 WoW, at 7M subscribers, in one year will gross almost as much as the second most successful video game in history. So despite all of the comments about declining subscriber bases, it is is *still* a license to print money. The point Nelson makes about the cost of development of Titan is spot on. If we assume $60M is the right number, that is like 17 days worth of 2014 revenues for WoW. Activision is a publicly traded company and has shareholders; canceling Titan might be the most financially responsible thing they can do, rather than bleed off WoW subscribers.
Having said all of that, I played *cough* quite a lot of WoW between 2005 and 2010 *cough* and was really curious about Titan. Like some of the other commenters, I'm now a little burned out and cynical about the content. For me, the Burning Crusade and Wrath of the Lich King expansions were peak WoW. If Blizzard could recapture that magic for me in a new MMORPG, I'd be there in a heartbeat.
posted by kovacs at 7:52 PM on September 23, 2014 [1 favorite]
To be fair, you really should compare World of Warcraft revenue to the entire Call of Duty franchise, not just one game. MMOs are expensive in part because you have to keep generating content and expansions. Point still stands: Blizzard's made a shit ton of money off of WoW and they can afford to eat a loss on a project like Titan. The real concern is they don't have a new game to follow, but I think between the decline of MMOs and their new success with Hearthstone and (I hope) Heroes of the Storm, they'll be fine.
posted by Nelson at 8:39 PM on September 23, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by Nelson at 8:39 PM on September 23, 2014 [1 favorite]
Are there any numbers on exactly how financially succesfull Hearthstone is? I've definitely put some money into it, but I can't imagine it's more than a blip on the radar compared to WoW.
I would probably play a new Blizzard MMO. There is some truth to the idea that you shouldn't do a sequel for an MMO and instead just generate new content as you go but...one of the major reasons I got sick of WoW was that so many changes over the years made it a completely different game when I really wanted it to be the game it was during TBC just with new content and slight improvements. Objectively, the gameplay changes are probably improvements but I have too much nostalgia for old WoW. Take all those development lessons learned and put it into Starcraft Online or something and I'm there. Otherwise, nothing is getting me back into WoW.
Also, the other major reason I left WoW is all my friends did and so again I was drowned in nostalgia. Getting a fresh start with a new game would help there too.
posted by Drinky Die at 8:54 PM on September 23, 2014
I would probably play a new Blizzard MMO. There is some truth to the idea that you shouldn't do a sequel for an MMO and instead just generate new content as you go but...one of the major reasons I got sick of WoW was that so many changes over the years made it a completely different game when I really wanted it to be the game it was during TBC just with new content and slight improvements. Objectively, the gameplay changes are probably improvements but I have too much nostalgia for old WoW. Take all those development lessons learned and put it into Starcraft Online or something and I'm there. Otherwise, nothing is getting me back into WoW.
Also, the other major reason I left WoW is all my friends did and so again I was drowned in nostalgia. Getting a fresh start with a new game would help there too.
posted by Drinky Die at 8:54 PM on September 23, 2014
The hearthstone tangent makes me think that "free to play" and "pay to win" just don't describe free to play games anymore. What we need is Creative Commons style icons that tell you what variant of "free to play" a game actually is. They should be "pay to play" warts that say how a game is handicapped if you don't spend real money:
"Pay to Win" if there are power ups inaccessible
"Pay to Unlock" if some gameplay or levels are missing
"Grinding" if the game requires you to farm in-game currency
"Waiting" if the game limits how often you can play
Hearthstone's a free to play (with grinding) game. I suspect that's actually above average in player friendliness. There are very few games that are free and have no restrictions on gameplay.
posted by cotterpin at 2:16 AM on September 24, 2014 [2 favorites]
"Pay to Win" if there are power ups inaccessible
"Pay to Unlock" if some gameplay or levels are missing
"Grinding" if the game requires you to farm in-game currency
"Waiting" if the game limits how often you can play
Hearthstone's a free to play (with grinding) game. I suspect that's actually above average in player friendliness. There are very few games that are free and have no restrictions on gameplay.
posted by cotterpin at 2:16 AM on September 24, 2014 [2 favorites]
>HotS plays a whole lot like LoL or DotA 2.
I think you didn't play Dota 2 then.
They removed everything from the game. No last hitting. No items. Shared XP and gold. It's just uber casualized. Ofc some people will like it and they have strong back catalog so they can build upon it but it will be never be as big as Dota 2 or LoL.
Blizzard had a chance tho but the failed miserably with Dota. Actually they didn't care about it. Oh it's just a custom map who cares. Essentially both the spin off (LoL) and the original follow up (Dota 2) are both bigger than anything that anyone could have imagined back then.
And even when SC2 came out they had a second chance but the map editor was so underwhelming and you have to give a full license to them that no one even cared about doing anything like Dota.
In the other hand custom maps supports will be coming out in Dota 2 in the foreseeable future so the circle will be finally closed. And hopefully someone recreates War3 inside Dota 2.
posted by bdz at 2:49 AM on September 24, 2014 [1 favorite]
I think you didn't play Dota 2 then.
They removed everything from the game. No last hitting. No items. Shared XP and gold. It's just uber casualized. Ofc some people will like it and they have strong back catalog so they can build upon it but it will be never be as big as Dota 2 or LoL.
Blizzard had a chance tho but the failed miserably with Dota. Actually they didn't care about it. Oh it's just a custom map who cares. Essentially both the spin off (LoL) and the original follow up (Dota 2) are both bigger than anything that anyone could have imagined back then.
And even when SC2 came out they had a second chance but the map editor was so underwhelming and you have to give a full license to them that no one even cared about doing anything like Dota.
In the other hand custom maps supports will be coming out in Dota 2 in the foreseeable future so the circle will be finally closed. And hopefully someone recreates War3 inside Dota 2.
posted by bdz at 2:49 AM on September 24, 2014 [1 favorite]
The real concern is they don't have a new game to follow, but I think between the decline of MMOs and their new success with Hearthstone and (I hope) Heroes of the Storm, they'll be fine.
They could follow in the footsteps of Nintendo and slap Thrall's face onto a series of fighting and racing games. (The downside to this is we'll be stuck with Garosh forever.)
posted by CBrachyrhynchos at 6:28 AM on September 24, 2014
They could follow in the footsteps of Nintendo and slap Thrall's face onto a series of fighting and racing games. (The downside to this is we'll be stuck with Garosh forever.)
posted by CBrachyrhynchos at 6:28 AM on September 24, 2014
World of Warcraft has grossed about $10B over its lifetime. The next highest grossing game after that is Call of Duty: Black Ops at $1.5B
That's not really fair. You have to compare the gross of the CoD franchise over the same timeframe, not just one game. WoW has still grossed more but it's not as huge a gap.
posted by Justinian at 7:05 AM on September 24, 2014
That's not really fair. You have to compare the gross of the CoD franchise over the same timeframe, not just one game. WoW has still grossed more but it's not as huge a gap.
posted by Justinian at 7:05 AM on September 24, 2014
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