They're very expensive-sounding sounds
August 25, 2015 6:52 AM Subscribe
Skrillex, Diplo, and Justin Bieber collaborate on a song and talk about the process in this NYT mini-doc.
"This is wrong, Pooh-Bear."
"No. This is right. It's just, like, wrong-right."
posted by Evstar at 7:15 AM on August 25, 2015 [6 favorites]
"No. This is right. It's just, like, wrong-right."
posted by Evstar at 7:15 AM on August 25, 2015 [6 favorites]
To be fair, these guys might be ineloquent but it's not like they're untalented.
posted by Evstar at 7:18 AM on August 25, 2015 [6 favorites]
posted by Evstar at 7:18 AM on August 25, 2015 [6 favorites]
I love this goddamn track. I love that Bieber is so clueless. I love the care that goes into what's ultimately disposable music. I love the sense of play, throwing everything at the wall and seeing what sticks. And I love the obnoxious hook that's just a screwed-up vocal.
I also really like all the sparse sounds in the charts right now. This, Cheerleader, Ghost Town ... they all have these sparse hooks with (the impression of) not a whole lot going on. And they sound great.
posted by uncleozzy at 7:19 AM on August 25, 2015 [5 favorites]
I also really like all the sparse sounds in the charts right now. This, Cheerleader, Ghost Town ... they all have these sparse hooks with (the impression of) not a whole lot going on. And they sound great.
posted by uncleozzy at 7:19 AM on August 25, 2015 [5 favorites]
Yeah...I LOVE these "in the studio" type breakdowns of how tracks are made....but Bieber really came off as a lightweight here. Diplo is talking about music intervals, double time and beats, Skrillex about manipulating midi in Ableton and Bieber.....what?
Manipulating the singer to sound like a synth is really cool though, reminds me of the Bruno Mars track "locked out of heaven"....the "beep beep beep beep, beep beep beep beep" that fills the gaps is actually Bruno's voice sampled, manipulated and spat back out.
Nice little doc., thanks.
posted by remlapm at 7:21 AM on August 25, 2015 [3 favorites]
Manipulating the singer to sound like a synth is really cool though, reminds me of the Bruno Mars track "locked out of heaven"....the "beep beep beep beep, beep beep beep beep" that fills the gaps is actually Bruno's voice sampled, manipulated and spat back out.
Nice little doc., thanks.
posted by remlapm at 7:21 AM on August 25, 2015 [3 favorites]
Does Skrillex ever not come off like needing a big, encouraging hug?
posted by griphus at 7:24 AM on August 25, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by griphus at 7:24 AM on August 25, 2015 [3 favorites]
Yeah...I LOVE these "in the studio" type breakdowns of how tracks are made....but Bieber really came off as a lightweight here. Diplo is talking about music intervals, double time and beats, Skrillex about manipulating midi in Ableton and Bieber.....what?
I'd say that Beiber'e expertise is whatever he does to connect with people which makes him uber-famous.
posted by beau jackson at 7:30 AM on August 25, 2015 [2 favorites]
I'd say that Beiber'e expertise is whatever he does to connect with people which makes him uber-famous.
posted by beau jackson at 7:30 AM on August 25, 2015 [2 favorites]
These aren't the most articulate dudes, but they are certainly good at what they do.
And kudos to the NYT. The audio visualizations were well crafted and absolutely served the story.
posted by gwint at 7:31 AM on August 25, 2015 [8 favorites]
And kudos to the NYT. The audio visualizations were well crafted and absolutely served the story.
posted by gwint at 7:31 AM on August 25, 2015 [8 favorites]
So Skrillex and, to an even greater extent, Diplo, come off as very smart and thoughtful here -- whether or not you like the music. Are they? Or is it just by comparison with what a total moron Bieber obviously is?
posted by The Bellman at 7:34 AM on August 25, 2015
posted by The Bellman at 7:34 AM on August 25, 2015
Diplo has yet to convince me he's not an unrepentant sexist, plagiarizing asshole.
posted by nicebookrack at 7:39 AM on August 25, 2015 [9 favorites]
posted by nicebookrack at 7:39 AM on August 25, 2015 [9 favorites]
meh. Skrillex and Diplo kinda ripped off Caribou for this track.
posted by aielen at 7:46 AM on August 25, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by aielen at 7:46 AM on August 25, 2015 [2 favorites]
Skrillex: "We purposefully tried to almost put bad sounds in it in the beginning, to know that we have to make something sound better."
This reminded me of one of Brian Eno's Oblique Strategies cards, or the Worse Is Better philosophy of software engineering. Using and trusting a counter-intuitive process to discover something new.
Yes, they're smart.
posted by swift at 7:48 AM on August 25, 2015 [4 favorites]
This reminded me of one of Brian Eno's Oblique Strategies cards, or the Worse Is Better philosophy of software engineering. Using and trusting a counter-intuitive process to discover something new.
Yes, they're smart.
posted by swift at 7:48 AM on August 25, 2015 [4 favorites]
Does Skrillex ever not come off like needing a big, encouraging hug?
It wasn't until last year sometime that I realized I had gone to the same very tiny school with Skrillex, one of the side effects of a bizarre childhood. We were never friends, largely because I'm a few years older, but also because he was exceptionally snotty and arrogant back in the day, so it's actually a little jarring for me to see him as so soft-spoken in this video. When I knew him, he was still Sonny, the bratty scene kid in the suburbs. Looking back, he was probably just raging at the same toxic Scientology atmosphere I was, so I'm really glad he was able to get out so successfully.
posted by Diagonalize at 7:48 AM on August 25, 2015 [9 favorites]
It wasn't until last year sometime that I realized I had gone to the same very tiny school with Skrillex, one of the side effects of a bizarre childhood. We were never friends, largely because I'm a few years older, but also because he was exceptionally snotty and arrogant back in the day, so it's actually a little jarring for me to see him as so soft-spoken in this video. When I knew him, he was still Sonny, the bratty scene kid in the suburbs. Looking back, he was probably just raging at the same toxic Scientology atmosphere I was, so I'm really glad he was able to get out so successfully.
posted by Diagonalize at 7:48 AM on August 25, 2015 [9 favorites]
This reveals a lot about the way I consume online information and not much about Diplo, but I had no idea he was white.
posted by lownote at 7:54 AM on August 25, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by lownote at 7:54 AM on August 25, 2015 [1 favorite]
I've always just loved Diplo's willingness to work with basically anybody and everybody. Justin Beiber, check. Die Antwoord, check. Ellie Goulding. Skerrit Bwoy both before and after he found Jesus. Busy Signal and Ezra Koenig on the same album. Dude is down for anything. At this point you could tell me his next single featured Death Grips, Yo Yo Ma, and the ghost of Edward Khil and I'd probably believe you.
posted by Itaxpica at 7:55 AM on August 25, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by Itaxpica at 7:55 AM on August 25, 2015 [2 favorites]
This is the Caribou track I was referring to.. The beginning of the Skrillex/Diplo (+Bieber) track pretty much takes from this aesthetic... it's not that original. But they are good at drumming up press and publicity for themselves, and good at taking less well-known styles and commercializing them.
(well, like Madonna.)
posted by aielen at 8:03 AM on August 25, 2015
(well, like Madonna.)
posted by aielen at 8:03 AM on August 25, 2015
No, Diplo, it isn't a 7th, it's an octave.
posted by grumpybear69 at 8:08 AM on August 25, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by grumpybear69 at 8:08 AM on August 25, 2015 [3 favorites]
This is a really nicely produced piece: perfectly paced, easy to follow (thanks to some obvious details, like the visualisations, and some less obvious ones, like the coordination of subject and backdrop), and with strong interviews. And it's always fascinating to hear how successful artists tinker with and refine their work, or how they even achieve certain techniques in the first place.
I think there's some really interesting stuff to flesh out in some of what's being said. At the start, Bieber describes how the sounds sound expensive, and Skrillex talks about how the collaborators actually tried to 'put bad sounds in at the beginning, to know that we have to make something sound better'—everything here is in service to sound. There's nothing about meaning or emotion at all going into the discussion of how the song was made. There's just a lot of searching—so much searching!—for a new, unique sound or combination of sounds (the 'flute' sound, for example) that are going to work well enough to make the song a hit. To me, Skrillex's assertion at the end that computer music is going to be 'relevant for a long time' seems very empty. Why should this be the case? If he hasn't talked about any meaning or emotion behind the work that people can identify with, it must be that he thinks the sounds themselves are just compelling enough on their own. I'm sure this sentence will make me sound like the worst kind of liberal arts hipster idiot, but isn't this just pandering to consumerist values, in a sense? People buy the latest tech product, they buy into the latest fashions because they look good. If artists want to put out music that simply sounds good—'expensive'—nothing's stopping them, but don't we expect music to have some sort of message worth listening to as well?
Hopefully some of that makes sense.
posted by Quilford at 8:11 AM on August 25, 2015 [1 favorite]
I think there's some really interesting stuff to flesh out in some of what's being said. At the start, Bieber describes how the sounds sound expensive, and Skrillex talks about how the collaborators actually tried to 'put bad sounds in at the beginning, to know that we have to make something sound better'—everything here is in service to sound. There's nothing about meaning or emotion at all going into the discussion of how the song was made. There's just a lot of searching—so much searching!—for a new, unique sound or combination of sounds (the 'flute' sound, for example) that are going to work well enough to make the song a hit. To me, Skrillex's assertion at the end that computer music is going to be 'relevant for a long time' seems very empty. Why should this be the case? If he hasn't talked about any meaning or emotion behind the work that people can identify with, it must be that he thinks the sounds themselves are just compelling enough on their own. I'm sure this sentence will make me sound like the worst kind of liberal arts hipster idiot, but isn't this just pandering to consumerist values, in a sense? People buy the latest tech product, they buy into the latest fashions because they look good. If artists want to put out music that simply sounds good—'expensive'—nothing's stopping them, but don't we expect music to have some sort of message worth listening to as well?
Hopefully some of that makes sense.
posted by Quilford at 8:11 AM on August 25, 2015 [1 favorite]
In summary, to me, this video ultimately just convinces me that pop music is commodified more now than ever, with artists looking for new products (new sounds) to sell. Maybe this is a well known thing and I'm just hopelessly naive, but I do think it's interesting how what's being said in the video tacitly confirms it.
posted by Quilford at 8:15 AM on August 25, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by Quilford at 8:15 AM on August 25, 2015 [1 favorite]
pop music is commodified more now than ever,
Pop has always been commodified and there's nothing wrong with that, in fact it's almost everything that's right about it... read KLF's The Manual.
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 8:18 AM on August 25, 2015 [6 favorites]
Pop has always been commodified and there's nothing wrong with that, in fact it's almost everything that's right about it... read KLF's The Manual.
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 8:18 AM on August 25, 2015 [6 favorites]
That's been true of popular music since pretty much the dawn of time, though. Look at what Tchaikovsky said about the 1812 Overture. Nothing here is new, the technology is just better.
posted by Itaxpica at 8:18 AM on August 25, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by Itaxpica at 8:18 AM on August 25, 2015 [2 favorites]
don't we expect music to have some sort of message worth listening to as well?
Sure, plenty of people do. But plenty don't. As long as the lyrics aren't explicitly obnoxious and hard-to-ignore, I really don't care what the "message" is as long as there are some cool sounds to listen to or a nice groove to feel or a catchy melody to sing.
(The new Nick Jonas song ... man, what a great feel. No idea what he's singing about. But I want to keep listening.)
posted by uncleozzy at 8:26 AM on August 25, 2015 [2 favorites]
Sure, plenty of people do. But plenty don't. As long as the lyrics aren't explicitly obnoxious and hard-to-ignore, I really don't care what the "message" is as long as there are some cool sounds to listen to or a nice groove to feel or a catchy melody to sing.
(The new Nick Jonas song ... man, what a great feel. No idea what he's singing about. But I want to keep listening.)
posted by uncleozzy at 8:26 AM on August 25, 2015 [2 favorites]
Okay, but I feel like pop music was once crafted to tell stories/communicate, at least in part. Now it's crafted to just sound what people like?
posted by Quilford at 8:27 AM on August 25, 2015
posted by Quilford at 8:27 AM on August 25, 2015
"I really don't care what the "message" is as long as there are some cool sounds to listen to or a nice groove to feel or a catchy melody to sing."
You should come hang out with me when I have the Gypsy Kings greatest hits on. I've made up an entirely new language to sing along with "bummmbalaaaayaaaaa, bumballaaayaaa, esta me no blah meh quando oy!" Absolutely no idea what those lads are on about.
posted by remlapm at 8:31 AM on August 25, 2015 [2 favorites]
You should come hang out with me when I have the Gypsy Kings greatest hits on. I've made up an entirely new language to sing along with "bummmbalaaaayaaaaa, bumballaaayaaa, esta me no blah meh quando oy!" Absolutely no idea what those lads are on about.
posted by remlapm at 8:31 AM on August 25, 2015 [2 favorites]
Okay, but I feel like pop music was once crafted to tell stories/communicate, at least in part. Now it's crafted to just sound what people like?
Pop music has always had streams doing both. KISS had a major hit fifty years ago about how they wanna rock and roll all night... and party every day. Kanye blew up the airwaves a few years ago with a ballad about struggling with his inner demons and the toll that takes on the people around him (Runaway, for the people keeping score at home). Taking about what pop "is" or "used to be" is an exercise in futility.
posted by Itaxpica at 8:37 AM on August 25, 2015 [1 favorite]
Pop music has always had streams doing both. KISS had a major hit fifty years ago about how they wanna rock and roll all night... and party every day. Kanye blew up the airwaves a few years ago with a ballad about struggling with his inner demons and the toll that takes on the people around him (Runaway, for the people keeping score at home). Taking about what pop "is" or "used to be" is an exercise in futility.
posted by Itaxpica at 8:37 AM on August 25, 2015 [1 favorite]
If he hasn't talked about any meaning or emotion behind the work that people can identify with, it must be that he thinks the sounds themselves are just compelling enough on their own. I'm sure this sentence will make me sound like the worst kind of liberal arts hipster idiot, but isn't this just pandering to consumerist values, in a sense?
If you ask 10 people why they listen to music you'll get 22 answers. Some people look for the particular emotive, literary, or personal aspects of a artist or work. Others might value the "scene" or community that forms around genres. Still others seek out unique sounds or structures they haven't heard before. I don't think there's really a valid value system that puts any of these types of enjoyment over another.
In summary, music is a land of contrasts.
posted by arcolz at 8:40 AM on August 25, 2015 [1 favorite]
If you ask 10 people why they listen to music you'll get 22 answers. Some people look for the particular emotive, literary, or personal aspects of a artist or work. Others might value the "scene" or community that forms around genres. Still others seek out unique sounds or structures they haven't heard before. I don't think there's really a valid value system that puts any of these types of enjoyment over another.
In summary, music is a land of contrasts.
posted by arcolz at 8:40 AM on August 25, 2015 [1 favorite]
Also, Bieber falling off a skateboard under the credits lol.
posted by arcolz at 8:44 AM on August 25, 2015
posted by arcolz at 8:44 AM on August 25, 2015
The thing that has changed is that writing a song and creating the canonical performance of it have collapsed into parts of a single process. Writing in the studio used to be a rarity (even after the 1960s shift where it became the rule, rather than the exception, for the writer and performer to be the same person) but is now the norm.
posted by enf at 8:47 AM on August 25, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by enf at 8:47 AM on August 25, 2015 [2 favorites]
Related: Chasing The Future, Diplo Makes The Hits Of Today (NPR)
nicebookrack: Diplo has yet to convince me he's not an unrepentant sexist, plagiarizing asshole.
I used to be a Diplo fanboy. I caught him back when he was touring with Ninja Tune and promoting Florida, opening with Blockhead for Amon Tobin (I think), so for the longest time Diplo and Blockhead occupied the same mental space for me. Then Diplo blew up, and I've learned more about his thoughts on the world at large. My opinions of him as a person have dropped, but damn if he can't make some fine pop hits.
It's hard to separate the music from the music-makers. At points you should, others you shouldn't.
posted by filthy light thief at 8:52 AM on August 25, 2015 [5 favorites]
nicebookrack: Diplo has yet to convince me he's not an unrepentant sexist, plagiarizing asshole.
I used to be a Diplo fanboy. I caught him back when he was touring with Ninja Tune and promoting Florida, opening with Blockhead for Amon Tobin (I think), so for the longest time Diplo and Blockhead occupied the same mental space for me. Then Diplo blew up, and I've learned more about his thoughts on the world at large. My opinions of him as a person have dropped, but damn if he can't make some fine pop hits.
It's hard to separate the music from the music-makers. At points you should, others you shouldn't.
posted by filthy light thief at 8:52 AM on August 25, 2015 [5 favorites]
enf: Ethan's approach to songwriting seems extremely jaded and lazy. He puts quotes around the word songwriting and offers cringe-worthy advice like you should probably just find a more happening set of loops.
Not to mention that the song he created in GarageBand as an example falls well below the threshold of "adequate."
Which is to say that I wouldn't cite him as an authority on the craft.
posted by grumpybear69 at 9:11 AM on August 25, 2015 [1 favorite]
Not to mention that the song he created in GarageBand as an example falls well below the threshold of "adequate."
Which is to say that I wouldn't cite him as an authority on the craft.
posted by grumpybear69 at 9:11 AM on August 25, 2015 [1 favorite]
It feels like it's really a Diplo / Skrillex remix of an unreleased Bieber song.
posted by smackfu at 9:26 AM on August 25, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by smackfu at 9:26 AM on August 25, 2015 [3 favorites]
"Say what you want about Skrillex and Bieber, Dude, but at least they've got an ethos."
posted by koeselitz at 9:45 AM on August 25, 2015
posted by koeselitz at 9:45 AM on August 25, 2015
One of the things I'm seeing in this thread is the conflation of song with recording/arrangement. They are two distinct entities whose definitions, while nebulous to those not involved in songcraft, have not changed.
The song is the melody, chord changes and lyrics, and maybe a riff or two said riff is an inseparable element of the core song. It is what a performer performs, and can be likened to a concept. The recording/arrangement is the realization of that concept through the capture of a performance on a medium. It is what a producer generates.
In this case, Justin and Pooh Bear wrote a song together and produced a demo with just piano and vocals. That demo was then sent over to Skrillex and Diplo to turn into a hit. From that perspective, sound is their only tool. They're not re-writing the lyrics or melody - they are taking a song and creating a recording/arrangement. That the sounds be novel and captivating is absolutely their core priority. It is what producers and engineers have been doing since the dawn of recording studios - choosing the right mic, placing it, choosing amps, drum heads, stomp boxes, EQing and compressing stuff. Getting the right sound for a recording - particularly in the pop realm - is as crucial as having compelling melody and lyrics.
Nobody* complains that Kevin Shields was somehow sucking the life out of music by spending untold hours getting the exact right guitar tones for Loveless. What Skrillex and Diplo did is no different. When you are creating a recording, the sounds you use are fundamentally important. Even with extremely lo-fi acts like Daniel Johnston or early Mountain Goats - had they not sounded like they did, the reception would likely have been very different.
TL;DR: Sounds are important, ignore them to your peril.
posted by grumpybear69 at 9:53 AM on August 25, 2015 [11 favorites]
The song is the melody, chord changes and lyrics, and maybe a riff or two said riff is an inseparable element of the core song. It is what a performer performs, and can be likened to a concept. The recording/arrangement is the realization of that concept through the capture of a performance on a medium. It is what a producer generates.
In this case, Justin and Pooh Bear wrote a song together and produced a demo with just piano and vocals. That demo was then sent over to Skrillex and Diplo to turn into a hit. From that perspective, sound is their only tool. They're not re-writing the lyrics or melody - they are taking a song and creating a recording/arrangement. That the sounds be novel and captivating is absolutely their core priority. It is what producers and engineers have been doing since the dawn of recording studios - choosing the right mic, placing it, choosing amps, drum heads, stomp boxes, EQing and compressing stuff. Getting the right sound for a recording - particularly in the pop realm - is as crucial as having compelling melody and lyrics.
Nobody* complains that Kevin Shields was somehow sucking the life out of music by spending untold hours getting the exact right guitar tones for Loveless. What Skrillex and Diplo did is no different. When you are creating a recording, the sounds you use are fundamentally important. Even with extremely lo-fi acts like Daniel Johnston or early Mountain Goats - had they not sounded like they did, the reception would likely have been very different.
TL;DR: Sounds are important, ignore them to your peril.
posted by grumpybear69 at 9:53 AM on August 25, 2015 [11 favorites]
Look at what Tchaikovsky said about the 1812 Overture. Nothing here is new, the technology is just better.
Sure, artillery has gotten more effective at killing people, but I'm not sure we've topped the cannon of Tchaikovsky's time in terms of effective musical punctuation.
posted by ssg at 9:54 AM on August 25, 2015 [1 favorite]
Sure, artillery has gotten more effective at killing people, but I'm not sure we've topped the cannon of Tchaikovsky's time in terms of effective musical punctuation.
posted by ssg at 9:54 AM on August 25, 2015 [1 favorite]
He puts quotes around the word songwriting and offers cringe-worthy advice like you should probably just find a more happening set of loops.
Not to mention that the song he created in GarageBand as an example falls well below the threshold of "adequate."
I haven't had a chance to listen to what he put together but in a nutshell what he has there is very close to the process I've used over the years. With sample-based music, finding the right set of loops is extremely important so it's not bad advice and sort of addresses the fact that what he's putting together as an example isn't very good.
As for putting "songwriting" in quotes, it's something I've struggled with myself. The kind of music I've been making over the years has had a bit of stigma to it (that's not even real music blablabla), and the question of who is the writer/creator/composer/owner is argued over in lawsuits even now. My work, put visually, would look roughly like what he has in that post. I don't really call it songwriting, but maybe I should, I don't know. I call it making beats and I'm OK with that.
posted by Hoopo at 10:01 AM on August 25, 2015 [2 favorites]
Not to mention that the song he created in GarageBand as an example falls well below the threshold of "adequate."
I haven't had a chance to listen to what he put together but in a nutshell what he has there is very close to the process I've used over the years. With sample-based music, finding the right set of loops is extremely important so it's not bad advice and sort of addresses the fact that what he's putting together as an example isn't very good.
As for putting "songwriting" in quotes, it's something I've struggled with myself. The kind of music I've been making over the years has had a bit of stigma to it (that's not even real music blablabla), and the question of who is the writer/creator/composer/owner is argued over in lawsuits even now. My work, put visually, would look roughly like what he has in that post. I don't really call it songwriting, but maybe I should, I don't know. I call it making beats and I'm OK with that.
posted by Hoopo at 10:01 AM on August 25, 2015 [2 favorites]
"read KLF's The Manual"
...I'm totally stealing that to shut down every discussion of music from now on.
/not3AMeternalist
posted by roger ackroyd at 10:04 AM on August 25, 2015 [2 favorites]
...I'm totally stealing that to shut down every discussion of music from now on.
/not3AMeternalist
posted by roger ackroyd at 10:04 AM on August 25, 2015 [2 favorites]
Was the symbol language used in the overlay visualization directly from some music software? Or was it an abstract thing the NYT made up itself?
posted by Nelson at 10:15 AM on August 25, 2015
posted by Nelson at 10:15 AM on August 25, 2015
The snippet of Bieber vocal that they transform into a flute-y sound loop is not much of an advance on the 'seagull' sound you hear at the beginning of Tomorrow Never Knows, which is Paul's laugh distorted through acceleration, 49 years ago. I wish these guys well but it's a bit much the way they labour the point about taking a snippet of voice and messing around with it on a laptop. The context is everything and equally Paul's 1966 loops would not have been anything special without their setting.
posted by colie at 10:31 AM on August 25, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by colie at 10:31 AM on August 25, 2015 [2 favorites]
I give Bieber props for having a great team around him and writing pretty catchy pop. And I'd have been much more interested in this if it were just Skrillex (who yes looks like he needs a big ol' hug) and Diplo nerding out about how they did the remix/arrangement. Bieber's very talented and not terribly bright (or perhaps bright and not terribly articulate) and it's kind of painful to listen to him talk about anything.
Really, really fun remix though, especially in a world where the pop-remix (as opposed to the underground/late night kind of remix) kind of has to avoid screwing with the original too much. Lots of really lovely vocal manipulation going on here.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 10:57 AM on August 25, 2015
Really, really fun remix though, especially in a world where the pop-remix (as opposed to the underground/late night kind of remix) kind of has to avoid screwing with the original too much. Lots of really lovely vocal manipulation going on here.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 10:57 AM on August 25, 2015
I don't think they labored the point about the hook. They acknowledged that people were fascinated and dying to know what it was. They seemed to take pleasure in the fact that it was actually quite simple to create. Manipulate the vocalist until the sound passes *just* beyond human-like. Coming full circle back to Diplo's comment about how synths are pretty stale but voices are infinitely mutable and rich.
posted by erebora at 11:00 AM on August 25, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by erebora at 11:00 AM on August 25, 2015 [2 favorites]
KISS had a major hit fifty years ago about how they wanna rock and roll all night... and party every day.
Yes, but most of us thought they wanted to rock and roll all night and part of every day. Which totally makes sense. Because they have to sleep some time. No? Just me?
posted by The Bellman at 11:01 AM on August 25, 2015 [2 favorites]
Yes, but most of us thought they wanted to rock and roll all night and part of every day. Which totally makes sense. Because they have to sleep some time. No? Just me?
posted by The Bellman at 11:01 AM on August 25, 2015 [2 favorites]
In summary, to me, this video ultimately just convinces me that pop music is commodified more now than ever, with artists looking for new products (new sounds) to sell. Maybe this is a well known thing and I'm just hopelessly naive, but I do think it's interesting how what's being said in the video tacitly confirms it.
I can see how Bieber is throwing you off but if you're an electronic music person the emotion is in the sound.
posted by atoxyl at 11:21 AM on August 25, 2015 [4 favorites]
I can see how Bieber is throwing you off but if you're an electronic music person the emotion is in the sound.
posted by atoxyl at 11:21 AM on August 25, 2015 [4 favorites]
Yes, but most of us thought they wanted to rock and roll all night and part of every day. Which totally makes sense. Because they have to sleep some time.
KISS's legendary paen to partying responsibly.
posted by Itaxpica at 11:21 AM on August 25, 2015 [1 favorite]
KISS's legendary paen to partying responsibly.
posted by Itaxpica at 11:21 AM on August 25, 2015 [1 favorite]
I can see how Bieber is throwing you off but if you're an electronic music person the emotion is in the sound.
Yes, this. So very much this. Sound design is an enormous part of producing electronic music. In some ways (and the specific ways vary from genre to genre) the melody/chord progression is much less important than how the sounds twist your brain.
I think a lot of the reason why a lot of people don't 'get' electronic music is, no joke, because they haven't heard it on the right drugs. Reggae makes more sense if you listen to it stoned as shit, punk + drunk, and with most of the dance forms of electronic music you need to be on something at least mildly hallucinogenic for any of it to make sense.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 11:28 AM on August 25, 2015 [1 favorite]
Yes, this. So very much this. Sound design is an enormous part of producing electronic music. In some ways (and the specific ways vary from genre to genre) the melody/chord progression is much less important than how the sounds twist your brain.
I think a lot of the reason why a lot of people don't 'get' electronic music is, no joke, because they haven't heard it on the right drugs. Reggae makes more sense if you listen to it stoned as shit, punk + drunk, and with most of the dance forms of electronic music you need to be on something at least mildly hallucinogenic for any of it to make sense.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 11:28 AM on August 25, 2015 [1 favorite]
melody/chord progression is much less important than how the sounds twist your brain
Chord progressions maybe don't matter much, but the musical gesture that the guys dissect in the video only functions as a conjunct of melody, harmony, rhythm and counterpoint, not just timbre.
posted by colie at 11:38 AM on August 25, 2015 [1 favorite]
Chord progressions maybe don't matter much, but the musical gesture that the guys dissect in the video only functions as a conjunct of melody, harmony, rhythm and counterpoint, not just timbre.
posted by colie at 11:38 AM on August 25, 2015 [1 favorite]
"Reggae makes more sense if you listen to it stoned as shit, punk + drunk, and with most of the dance forms of electronic music you need to be on something at least mildly hallucinogenic for any of it to make sense."
STRONGLY disagree. You are conflating the culture of a music with the music itself. It seems quite naive to assume that a complete listening experience be tied to intoxication.
posted by erebora at 11:44 AM on August 25, 2015 [4 favorites]
STRONGLY disagree. You are conflating the culture of a music with the music itself. It seems quite naive to assume that a complete listening experience be tied to intoxication.
posted by erebora at 11:44 AM on August 25, 2015 [4 favorites]
I've been involved in the electronic music scene since like 1997. 'Naive' is perhaps not the most useful word to use.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 11:45 AM on August 25, 2015
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 11:45 AM on August 25, 2015
You are conflating the culture of a music with the music itself.
Music is culture.
posted by grumpybear69 at 11:47 AM on August 25, 2015 [1 favorite]
Music is culture.
posted by grumpybear69 at 11:47 AM on August 25, 2015 [1 favorite]
Chord progressions maybe don't matter much, but the musical gesture that the guys dissect in the video only functions as a conjunct of melody, harmony, rhythm and counterpoint, not just timbre.
which would be why I said quote "In some ways" yes
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 11:47 AM on August 25, 2015
which would be why I said quote "In some ways" yes
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 11:47 AM on August 25, 2015
> It seems quite naive to assume that a complete listening experience be tied to intoxication.
You're going to have a particularly difficult time convincing people of that with respect to reggae, the official liturgical music of the Rastafarian Church, which considers cannabis a sacrament.
I do enjoy electronic dance music, but it does also gain a new dimension when you experience it on psychedelics.
For those styles, I'd say that the listeners on drugs are a majority. Whether or not you like it, the composers are on drugs quite a bit, and even more, writing for people on drugs.
The one thing I don't agree about is punk. There are punks of all types - drunks, lots of speed freaks, lots of straight-edge, lots of junkies...
posted by lupus_yonderboy at 11:49 AM on August 25, 2015 [3 favorites]
You're going to have a particularly difficult time convincing people of that with respect to reggae, the official liturgical music of the Rastafarian Church, which considers cannabis a sacrament.
I do enjoy electronic dance music, but it does also gain a new dimension when you experience it on psychedelics.
For those styles, I'd say that the listeners on drugs are a majority. Whether or not you like it, the composers are on drugs quite a bit, and even more, writing for people on drugs.
The one thing I don't agree about is punk. There are punks of all types - drunks, lots of speed freaks, lots of straight-edge, lots of junkies...
posted by lupus_yonderboy at 11:49 AM on August 25, 2015 [3 favorites]
I don't know if that was supposed to be watched on an iPhone but that's how I watched it and it was baller. 💯
posted by (Arsenio) Hall and (Warren) Oates at 12:00 PM on August 25, 2015
posted by (Arsenio) Hall and (Warren) Oates at 12:00 PM on August 25, 2015
And after seeing the video (as much as I could take) I had to laugh at the comments that "writing music hasn't changed at all".
At what time in history before today would three people get together to write music without musical instruments? I'm using "instrument" in the technical musical sense, as in "instrumentalist" - drums, guitar, theremin, gamelan, nose flute, etc.
It might be I missed a moment which had a keyboard or something in it, but I at least skimmed all of it, and certainly none of these guys seem to hang out with instruments at all...
Don't get me wrong - a computer is an amazing tool for creating music and none of the music I do today would be possible without it - I have nothing against computers and digital music production systems!
But it's a sea change from all of human history before the last quarter century.
For example, Bach would have completely understood a Beatles compositional session - musicians working out material on instruments.
But this video would be alien to Bach - even to Elvis.
Honestly, this was pretty awfully bland and I need something to take the taste out of my mouth.
posted by lupus_yonderboy at 12:08 PM on August 25, 2015
At what time in history before today would three people get together to write music without musical instruments? I'm using "instrument" in the technical musical sense, as in "instrumentalist" - drums, guitar, theremin, gamelan, nose flute, etc.
It might be I missed a moment which had a keyboard or something in it, but I at least skimmed all of it, and certainly none of these guys seem to hang out with instruments at all...
Don't get me wrong - a computer is an amazing tool for creating music and none of the music I do today would be possible without it - I have nothing against computers and digital music production systems!
But it's a sea change from all of human history before the last quarter century.
For example, Bach would have completely understood a Beatles compositional session - musicians working out material on instruments.
But this video would be alien to Bach - even to Elvis.
Honestly, this was pretty awfully bland and I need something to take the taste out of my mouth.
posted by lupus_yonderboy at 12:08 PM on August 25, 2015
I too have never quite been able to shake the sense that Diplo is a bit of a dickbag. He's really good at what he does, though - I don't get the sense that he's much either for music theory or engineering but he looks at music as a DJ (and as an A&R type) with a very good sense of what will play to the crowd.
posted by atoxyl at 12:09 PM on August 25, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by atoxyl at 12:09 PM on August 25, 2015 [1 favorite]
(Oh, and I don't think most people are tripping most of the time that they listen to EDM. However, I do think that most of them enjoy tripping and consider it a big part of who they are, even if they don't do it all the time... I know I certainly do! :-) )
posted by lupus_yonderboy at 12:10 PM on August 25, 2015
posted by lupus_yonderboy at 12:10 PM on August 25, 2015
For example, Bach would have completely understood a Beatles compositional session - musicians working out material on instruments.
He'd probably also recognize working with AvB or PVD or loads of other musicians who use midi keyboards.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 12:12 PM on August 25, 2015
He'd probably also recognize working with AvB or PVD or loads of other musicians who use midi keyboards.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 12:12 PM on August 25, 2015
Also also musical manipulation of vocals is what pretty much everybody is doing right now. The thing that makes this one work is how borderline irritating it is and the sparse arrangement, but I thought Skrillex's original Melodyne-tweaked chipmunk chop thing was more impressive as sound design.
posted by atoxyl at 12:14 PM on August 25, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by atoxyl at 12:14 PM on August 25, 2015 [1 favorite]
At what time in history before today would three people get together to write music without musical instruments?
This comment reminds me of something one of the grad students said during a composer's forum when I was doing a presentation on ambient music (FSOL, Willam Orbit, etc) (in 1995):
"Real music is composed, not programmed."
To which I can only sigh and hope that neither person is in any position of authority, culturally speaking.
posted by grumpybear69 at 12:16 PM on August 25, 2015 [3 favorites]
This comment reminds me of something one of the grad students said during a composer's forum when I was doing a presentation on ambient music (FSOL, Willam Orbit, etc) (in 1995):
"Real music is composed, not programmed."
To which I can only sigh and hope that neither person is in any position of authority, culturally speaking.
posted by grumpybear69 at 12:16 PM on August 25, 2015 [3 favorites]
Also also musical manipulation of vocals is what pretty much everybody is doing right now.
Right now?
Cher. Believe. 1998. Most of Ray of Light by Madonna, also 1998. And that's just mainstream + electronic, going back oh my god 17 years.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 12:18 PM on August 25, 2015
Right now?
Cher. Believe. 1998. Most of Ray of Light by Madonna, also 1998. And that's just mainstream + electronic, going back oh my god 17 years.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 12:18 PM on August 25, 2015
What I mean is loading vocals (and other random things) into a sampler and playing them - which obviously is also nothing new, and also never went away - has kind of been the trend (along with 808 revivalism) in mainstream club music (including "EDM") since the nasty electro/dubstep synth thing died down.
posted by atoxyl at 12:28 PM on August 25, 2015
posted by atoxyl at 12:28 PM on August 25, 2015
I think a lot of the reason why a lot of people don't 'get' electronic music is, no joke, because they haven't heard it on the right drugs.
I've been listening to electronic music since before Wendy Carlos was Wendy Carlos, and making it since before Skrillex was born. I've never done drugs. It's really not necessary.
posted by Foosnark at 12:40 PM on August 25, 2015 [2 favorites]
I've been listening to electronic music since before Wendy Carlos was Wendy Carlos, and making it since before Skrillex was born. I've never done drugs. It's really not necessary.
posted by Foosnark at 12:40 PM on August 25, 2015 [2 favorites]
...okay, correction, Wendy transitioned earlier than I had thought. Then I've been listening since approximately when Kraftwerk recorded "Radio-Activity."
posted by Foosnark at 12:42 PM on August 25, 2015
posted by Foosnark at 12:42 PM on August 25, 2015
see later in the paragraph where I said "most of the dance forms of electronic music" which is decidedly not Wendy's oeuvre, nor Kraftwerk really.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 12:44 PM on August 25, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 12:44 PM on August 25, 2015 [1 favorite]
Some Kraftwerk songs sound great played simply on a piano. As does Tomorrow Never Knows come to that. The 1966 tape loops, including the 'seagull' Paul voice, are transcribed here.
posted by colie at 12:51 PM on August 25, 2015
posted by colie at 12:51 PM on August 25, 2015
At what time in history before today would three people get together to write music without musical instruments?
In this case, the song was written on piano, then arranged in Ableton. But people have been composing songs without the aid of instruments since forever, right?
The arrangement process is much easier than it was 100 years ago, but the basic metaphor is the same. You have sequences of sound events laid out in a time series, one or more sequences for each source, and as the arranger you edit and combine these sequences in an interesting way. In a live musical performance, you are constrained by time, but as an arranger/producer, you are free to manipulate a composition in a non-linear way, like a kid with building blocks.
I think what the computer does is make the performance/production feedback loop almost instant, whereas in traditional composition you'd need to copy out all the parts, give them to a band, rehearse, etc., then go back to the drawing board to tweak any parts that don't work. So you get the advantage of directly manipulating the sound, like Stockhausen cutting tape, but also the freedom to not worry about the ceremony and overhead of live instruments and performers, much like Mozart hitting billiard balls while writing down the music he hears in his head.
So it's interesting to see this sense of play and randomness in pop music, which must appeal to a broad audience while also pushing to the next big thing. "Real" musical instruments just slow the process down for these kinds of artists.
posted by swift at 1:12 PM on August 25, 2015 [6 favorites]
In this case, the song was written on piano, then arranged in Ableton. But people have been composing songs without the aid of instruments since forever, right?
The arrangement process is much easier than it was 100 years ago, but the basic metaphor is the same. You have sequences of sound events laid out in a time series, one or more sequences for each source, and as the arranger you edit and combine these sequences in an interesting way. In a live musical performance, you are constrained by time, but as an arranger/producer, you are free to manipulate a composition in a non-linear way, like a kid with building blocks.
I think what the computer does is make the performance/production feedback loop almost instant, whereas in traditional composition you'd need to copy out all the parts, give them to a band, rehearse, etc., then go back to the drawing board to tweak any parts that don't work. So you get the advantage of directly manipulating the sound, like Stockhausen cutting tape, but also the freedom to not worry about the ceremony and overhead of live instruments and performers, much like Mozart hitting billiard balls while writing down the music he hears in his head.
So it's interesting to see this sense of play and randomness in pop music, which must appeal to a broad audience while also pushing to the next big thing. "Real" musical instruments just slow the process down for these kinds of artists.
posted by swift at 1:12 PM on August 25, 2015 [6 favorites]
give them to a band, rehearse, etc., then go back to the drawing board to tweak any parts that don't work
That's the good bit. Mozart liked that bit too.
posted by colie at 1:26 PM on August 25, 2015
That's the good bit. Mozart liked that bit too.
posted by colie at 1:26 PM on August 25, 2015
It can be a good bit. For high-end producers, they send a DJ friend a copy and ask them to play it out (or play it out themselves) and tweak from there.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 1:29 PM on August 25, 2015
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 1:29 PM on August 25, 2015
I think y'all are forgetting about sheet music.
That's some complicated shit. Quite a technical skill to work though a piece for one instrument, let alone a whole arrangement. I spent years learning to read music and still just tumble through it. Learning to use a DAW was way easier and more intuitive. Neither of them are up there with learning to play an instrument, but I bet you there are very few producers (world famous or otherwise) whose love of music wasn't sparked by the social act of performing and listening to music.
posted by kittensofthenight at 2:02 PM on August 25, 2015
That's some complicated shit. Quite a technical skill to work though a piece for one instrument, let alone a whole arrangement. I spent years learning to read music and still just tumble through it. Learning to use a DAW was way easier and more intuitive. Neither of them are up there with learning to play an instrument, but I bet you there are very few producers (world famous or otherwise) whose love of music wasn't sparked by the social act of performing and listening to music.
posted by kittensofthenight at 2:02 PM on August 25, 2015
At what time in history before today would three people get together to write music without musical instruments?
How is a computer not an instrument? Just like every other instrument it generates and manipulates sound waves.
posted by ultraviolet catastrophe at 3:01 PM on August 25, 2015 [3 favorites]
How is a computer not an instrument? Just like every other instrument it generates and manipulates sound waves.
posted by ultraviolet catastrophe at 3:01 PM on August 25, 2015 [3 favorites]
It is an instrument, and yet it contains instruments. Think on that one.
posted by hellphish at 3:04 PM on August 25, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by hellphish at 3:04 PM on August 25, 2015 [2 favorites]
It's like allllllllll the instruments... yeah, shit, I'm on the right drugs now (totally not on drugs)
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 3:09 PM on August 25, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 3:09 PM on August 25, 2015 [2 favorites]
Looking back, he was probably just raging at the same toxic Scientology atmosphere I was, so I'm really glad he was able to get out so successfully.
He's only a couple of times talked about growing up in CoS as far as I can tell, and mostly defended it while saying he's not personally into it anymore. But then his family is still heavily involved.
posted by atoxyl at 4:56 PM on August 25, 2015
He's only a couple of times talked about growing up in CoS as far as I can tell, and mostly defended it while saying he's not personally into it anymore. But then his family is still heavily involved.
posted by atoxyl at 4:56 PM on August 25, 2015
> How is a computer not an instrument? Just like every other instrument it generates and manipulates sound waves.
I did spend a long time explaining it in my post. Or, if you don't like that word, suggest your own word for the concept I'm using.
My point was that this session was different from 99% of the music sessions in history because of the lack of what most people would call "instruments".
> But people have been composing songs without the aid of instruments since forever, right?
The great majority of composers before the mid-twentieth century composed with a piano in front of them. I'm sure much or perhaps most of the material came to them before they sat down, but all the composers whose process I know sat in front of a piano. Mozart's about the only composer I can think of who regularly wrote music right out of his head, but even he would use a keyboard too most of the time.
> "Real" musical instruments just slow the process down for these kinds of artists.
I agree completely - I think the work completely reveals the amount of time and focus given to it.
A favorite anecdote of mine: I know an engineer who worked on a Kraftwerk album in a New York recording studio in the 80s. He told me that they spent 40 hours of studio time on the kick drum track - just the kick drum - for a single song.
Someone I told this to scoffed, "What a waste of time!" I said, "On the contrary, I think that attention to detail shines out in every single instant of the music."
----
I do feel a lot like trying to explain color to a blind man sometimes. I'm sitting here in front of a serious music workstation, it's not like I'm a Luddite!
Using a computer makes you very powerful in terms of sound generation, but it doesn't make you free.
There's a form of expressiveness that comes from composition, arrangement and production - which has very great power. Computers rule in this area.
But there's also a form of immediate, temporal expressiveness with an instrument - old-fashioned, off-my-lawn-you-rotten kids instruments like the one I play - that is not achievable by the production tools that I see being used in this video.
And honestly, this isn't trying to be expressive, which is fine. It's disposable pop music!
Putting my money where my mouth is, here's a piece entirely composed on my instrument (including bass and drums).
I had a specific musical thing I wanted to express, and all the production tools in the world would not have allowed me to express that without a musical instrument. These three guys are doing something else, more power to them, but it's something else.
This "music without instruments(*)" - where production tools are your main work area - is a new thing - and it's something I do myself, it's not like I hate it! - but don't try to claim it's "business as usual" 'cause it ain't. For the first time in history, a great deal of music is NOT a representation of performances on musical instruments, and it's neither good nor bad - but it is new!
posted by lupus_yonderboy at 5:40 PM on August 25, 2015
I did spend a long time explaining it in my post. Or, if you don't like that word, suggest your own word for the concept I'm using.
My point was that this session was different from 99% of the music sessions in history because of the lack of what most people would call "instruments".
> But people have been composing songs without the aid of instruments since forever, right?
The great majority of composers before the mid-twentieth century composed with a piano in front of them. I'm sure much or perhaps most of the material came to them before they sat down, but all the composers whose process I know sat in front of a piano. Mozart's about the only composer I can think of who regularly wrote music right out of his head, but even he would use a keyboard too most of the time.
> "Real" musical instruments just slow the process down for these kinds of artists.
I agree completely - I think the work completely reveals the amount of time and focus given to it.
A favorite anecdote of mine: I know an engineer who worked on a Kraftwerk album in a New York recording studio in the 80s. He told me that they spent 40 hours of studio time on the kick drum track - just the kick drum - for a single song.
Someone I told this to scoffed, "What a waste of time!" I said, "On the contrary, I think that attention to detail shines out in every single instant of the music."
----
I do feel a lot like trying to explain color to a blind man sometimes. I'm sitting here in front of a serious music workstation, it's not like I'm a Luddite!
Using a computer makes you very powerful in terms of sound generation, but it doesn't make you free.
There's a form of expressiveness that comes from composition, arrangement and production - which has very great power. Computers rule in this area.
But there's also a form of immediate, temporal expressiveness with an instrument - old-fashioned, off-my-lawn-you-rotten kids instruments like the one I play - that is not achievable by the production tools that I see being used in this video.
And honestly, this isn't trying to be expressive, which is fine. It's disposable pop music!
Putting my money where my mouth is, here's a piece entirely composed on my instrument (including bass and drums).
I had a specific musical thing I wanted to express, and all the production tools in the world would not have allowed me to express that without a musical instrument. These three guys are doing something else, more power to them, but it's something else.
This "music without instruments(*)" - where production tools are your main work area - is a new thing - and it's something I do myself, it's not like I hate it! - but don't try to claim it's "business as usual" 'cause it ain't. For the first time in history, a great deal of music is NOT a representation of performances on musical instruments, and it's neither good nor bad - but it is new!
posted by lupus_yonderboy at 5:40 PM on August 25, 2015
synthesizers are musical instruments though, is the important thing. It's like saying that writing is suddenly different because we're using computers instead of pencils. It's really not. There is absolutely zero difference between composing with a traditional instrument and a MIDI controller hooked up to a VST through a DAW.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 5:45 PM on August 25, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 5:45 PM on August 25, 2015 [1 favorite]
Bike horns are far superior musical instruments.
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 8:10 PM on August 25, 2015
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 8:10 PM on August 25, 2015
There is absolutely zero difference between composing with a traditional instrument and a MIDI controller hooked up to a VST through a DAW.
Yes, except that a fair bit of this composition -- Skrillex mentions it, briefly -- happens without a traditional controller. It seems that he's more likely to draw it in the piano roll than to play it in. Which is, again, somewhere between composing straight out of your head and composing in front of a keyboard, in that you're writing first, but you have immediate feedback. It's different, and I do think that the output is different, too. It's a lot easier to draw 32nd note triplets on a piano roll than to play them.
posted by uncleozzy at 4:35 AM on August 26, 2015 [1 favorite]
Yes, except that a fair bit of this composition -- Skrillex mentions it, briefly -- happens without a traditional controller. It seems that he's more likely to draw it in the piano roll than to play it in. Which is, again, somewhere between composing straight out of your head and composing in front of a keyboard, in that you're writing first, but you have immediate feedback. It's different, and I do think that the output is different, too. It's a lot easier to draw 32nd note triplets on a piano roll than to play them.
posted by uncleozzy at 4:35 AM on August 26, 2015 [1 favorite]
Yes, except that a fair bit of this composition -- Skrillex mentions it, briefly -- happens without a traditional controller. It seems that he's more likely to draw it in the piano roll than to play it in. Which is, again, somewhere between composing straight out of your head and composing in front of a keyboard, in that you're writing first, but you have immediate feedback. It's different, and I do think that the output is different, too. It's a lot easier to draw 32nd note triplets on a piano roll than to play them.
This is pretty much what I was going to say but - the argument really seems to be about playing versus sequencing, no? Which are different but - because of that immediate feedback factor - not entirely different. I'll point out though that the way I usually work with this stuff is on a laptop, with no MIDI controller, using the computer keyboard for MIDI input to mess around with melodies or at least specific note choices. And Skrillex appears to be doing things similarly in the video. This doesn't seem all that different from sitting down with a piano while writing a score, except the interpretation side is missing altogether. And he seems to handle drums almost entirely by penciling in while playing a loop, which is another pretty common approach derived more from step-sequenced drum machines. That was a new way to write music in the 1970s perhaps but not so much now.
posted by atoxyl at 11:00 AM on August 26, 2015
This is pretty much what I was going to say but - the argument really seems to be about playing versus sequencing, no? Which are different but - because of that immediate feedback factor - not entirely different. I'll point out though that the way I usually work with this stuff is on a laptop, with no MIDI controller, using the computer keyboard for MIDI input to mess around with melodies or at least specific note choices. And Skrillex appears to be doing things similarly in the video. This doesn't seem all that different from sitting down with a piano while writing a score, except the interpretation side is missing altogether. And he seems to handle drums almost entirely by penciling in while playing a loop, which is another pretty common approach derived more from step-sequenced drum machines. That was a new way to write music in the 1970s perhaps but not so much now.
posted by atoxyl at 11:00 AM on August 26, 2015
I should say I tend more to use the keyboard to work things out but sequence them in the end. As a method to express and record musical ideas I don't think this differs that much from tradition. But music on a strictly quantized beat obviously ends up with a distinct feel. Some producers are very skilled in knowing how to slide notes around to make them feel more organic - not even to get into algorithmic swing and such - but this is still going to end up differently than improvisation.
posted by atoxyl at 11:06 AM on August 26, 2015
posted by atoxyl at 11:06 AM on August 26, 2015
It's a lot easier to draw 32nd note triplets on a piano roll than to play them.
This is a fantastic example, though - because it's exactly something you hear a lot right now that you wouldn't before the laptop DAW era.
posted by atoxyl at 11:12 AM on August 26, 2015
This is a fantastic example, though - because it's exactly something you hear a lot right now that you wouldn't before the laptop DAW era.
posted by atoxyl at 11:12 AM on August 26, 2015
But music on a strictly quantized beat obviously ends up with a distinct feel.
I don't think it's the pulse that causes problems, since the software has sophisticated ways of getting an organic feel going on. What suffers when you make music based on a grid is the listener's sense of rhythmic variation against a hypermetric (longer than a single bar) norm.
Phrase rhythm - how musical gestures are unfold in time against a pulse - is something that people respond to very strongly in music because it mimics how we use language and therefore think. It's a shortcut to this that the guys in the video have found with Bieber's vocal mannerism that they extend into what is no more than a soulful melisma, enabled by technology instead of vocal technique.
People have Garageband now where once they had pianolas, which were hugely popular for a while and kind of blurred the line between consumer and producer of music.
posted by colie at 11:27 AM on August 26, 2015 [3 favorites]
I don't think it's the pulse that causes problems, since the software has sophisticated ways of getting an organic feel going on. What suffers when you make music based on a grid is the listener's sense of rhythmic variation against a hypermetric (longer than a single bar) norm.
Phrase rhythm - how musical gestures are unfold in time against a pulse - is something that people respond to very strongly in music because it mimics how we use language and therefore think. It's a shortcut to this that the guys in the video have found with Bieber's vocal mannerism that they extend into what is no more than a soulful melisma, enabled by technology instead of vocal technique.
People have Garageband now where once they had pianolas, which were hugely popular for a while and kind of blurred the line between consumer and producer of music.
posted by colie at 11:27 AM on August 26, 2015 [3 favorites]
For the first time in history, a great deal of music is NOT a representation of performances on musical instruments, and it's neither good nor bad - but it is new!
This is the really fascinating thing about it to me. I see it like this: a live musical performance is analogous to theater, a traditional studio recording is like a film (where there are edits and maybe some special effects but what we see/hear are mostly representations of actual events that at some point took place in meatspace), and this new kind of DAW/computer music is like animation, where the any similarity between the end result and the physical world as we experience it has to be deliberately engineered, and/or can be completely done away with. It's almost philosophical when you think about it.
I kind of love this track btw.
posted by STFUDonnie at 7:05 PM on August 26, 2015 [1 favorite]
This is the really fascinating thing about it to me. I see it like this: a live musical performance is analogous to theater, a traditional studio recording is like a film (where there are edits and maybe some special effects but what we see/hear are mostly representations of actual events that at some point took place in meatspace), and this new kind of DAW/computer music is like animation, where the any similarity between the end result and the physical world as we experience it has to be deliberately engineered, and/or can be completely done away with. It's almost philosophical when you think about it.
I kind of love this track btw.
posted by STFUDonnie at 7:05 PM on August 26, 2015 [1 favorite]
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