A Progressive Defense of Respectability Politics
September 15, 2015 12:52 PM Subscribe
Lifting as We Climb by Harvard Law's Randall L. Kennedy argues for, and covers the history of, respectability politics. From this month's Harper's.
But these misapplications of respectability politics should not obscure an essential fact: any marginalized group should be attentive to how it is perceived. The politics of respectability is a tactic of public relations that is, per se, neither necessarily good nor necessarily bad.
This is an interesting article. Thanks for posting it. I think this issue touches upon a central theme in #BLM and other POC activist circles, namely, why should we try to be respectable and project a good image when whites will hate us anyway?
I'm very sympathetic to this point of view. In my own experience (reading and studying American urban history) no amount of good behavior will allow people of color to be accepted as first-class citizens. Historically, it's just never happened. MLK was a well-dressed, highly educated and politely-spoken Christian minister and at least half the country hated his guts until the day he died, and probably long after. If whites are always going to hate blacks no matter what, and if blacks can only attain equality by demanding equality and taking it back through direct action and street violence (or the threat of street violence), then appealing to the good graces of whites is a futile gesture.
There is a problem hidden in this frame of mind, however. If this analysis is true, and whites are simply incorrigibly, permanently anti-black -- if white supremacy is truly "built into" the constitution of every white person and negotiation with white society is fundamentally useless -- then the prospects for long-term black empowerment are extremely, extremely slim.
Whites of non-hispanic descent make up about 65 to 75% of the US population, while African Americans make up about 10%. In a numerical situation such as this, any kind of mass empowerment of African Americans (such as national slavery reparations, for example) will need to be supported by a majority of white people to be politically viable. Reparations (for example) could not simply be "imposed" upon an unwilling 70% of the population without serious repercussions. It also ignores the fact that this 70% of the population controls virtually all political activity in the United States, which calls the viability of imposed racial justice into question.
This, I think, is the broader point that Kennedy is trying to make. An eventual racial reconciliation in the United States will need broad white backing and support, along with broad black backing and support. This inevitably entails some kind of negotiation between black and white standards of fairness and justice. There really is no way around this, short of some kind of civil war and the creation of a black national homeland.
The idea that there should be any give and take between white supremacy and black liberation is odious. I agree with that. But if white people are just white supremacist down to their bones -- down to their DNA -- and if American society and government is truly and fundamentally white supremacist since the beginning, and there is really no changing it, then this is what justice will eventually require.
The other option is that most white people and white institutions aren't inherently white supremacist, so that appealing to the standards and norms of whites isn't inherently problematic and will eventually cause more whites to "come around" to the cause of justice. But this idea is basically off the table. There is no longer any faith in the ability of whites to not be racist, which means that respectability politics is pointless, which in turn means that somehow, in some way, 10% of the population will have to force 75% to treat them with respect, forever.
posted by Avenger at 1:24 PM on September 15, 2015 [11 favorites]
This is an interesting article. Thanks for posting it. I think this issue touches upon a central theme in #BLM and other POC activist circles, namely, why should we try to be respectable and project a good image when whites will hate us anyway?
I'm very sympathetic to this point of view. In my own experience (reading and studying American urban history) no amount of good behavior will allow people of color to be accepted as first-class citizens. Historically, it's just never happened. MLK was a well-dressed, highly educated and politely-spoken Christian minister and at least half the country hated his guts until the day he died, and probably long after. If whites are always going to hate blacks no matter what, and if blacks can only attain equality by demanding equality and taking it back through direct action and street violence (or the threat of street violence), then appealing to the good graces of whites is a futile gesture.
There is a problem hidden in this frame of mind, however. If this analysis is true, and whites are simply incorrigibly, permanently anti-black -- if white supremacy is truly "built into" the constitution of every white person and negotiation with white society is fundamentally useless -- then the prospects for long-term black empowerment are extremely, extremely slim.
Whites of non-hispanic descent make up about 65 to 75% of the US population, while African Americans make up about 10%. In a numerical situation such as this, any kind of mass empowerment of African Americans (such as national slavery reparations, for example) will need to be supported by a majority of white people to be politically viable. Reparations (for example) could not simply be "imposed" upon an unwilling 70% of the population without serious repercussions. It also ignores the fact that this 70% of the population controls virtually all political activity in the United States, which calls the viability of imposed racial justice into question.
This, I think, is the broader point that Kennedy is trying to make. An eventual racial reconciliation in the United States will need broad white backing and support, along with broad black backing and support. This inevitably entails some kind of negotiation between black and white standards of fairness and justice. There really is no way around this, short of some kind of civil war and the creation of a black national homeland.
The idea that there should be any give and take between white supremacy and black liberation is odious. I agree with that. But if white people are just white supremacist down to their bones -- down to their DNA -- and if American society and government is truly and fundamentally white supremacist since the beginning, and there is really no changing it, then this is what justice will eventually require.
The other option is that most white people and white institutions aren't inherently white supremacist, so that appealing to the standards and norms of whites isn't inherently problematic and will eventually cause more whites to "come around" to the cause of justice. But this idea is basically off the table. There is no longer any faith in the ability of whites to not be racist, which means that respectability politics is pointless, which in turn means that somehow, in some way, 10% of the population will have to force 75% to treat them with respect, forever.
posted by Avenger at 1:24 PM on September 15, 2015 [11 favorites]
I think this is a matter of folks talking past one another. The term respectability is used throughout, but it's not clear it is always used to mean the same thing. It can refer to manner of comportment, clothing, heatedness of rhetoric, or behavior unbecoming. The author, perhaps ironically, highlights this issue in the following passage intended to defend against this criticism.
He further complains
In any event, it isn't the '50s and '60s anymore and blacks do not have to tiptoe around trying to look and act like their white counterparts to be taken seriously. It's okay for them to impolitely express anger about the shitty hands they are still being dealt. And I'm pretty sure the author agrees, but I'm not sure he understands what he is asking for. If he wants blacks to accommodate whites' demands that blacks be held to a higher standing, he is, in the current lingo of psychobabble, enabling them, just as much as the black commentator he criticizes is enabling bad cops when he blames his own targeting on "bad negroes." I fear he may be drawing a line that doesn't exist.
posted by Mental Wimp at 1:25 PM on September 15, 2015 [1 favorite]
More pressingly, the misapplication of the politics of respectability has occasionally inflicted deep wounds on the black community. Among the most ruthless enemies of civil-rights activists were the administrators of historically black public colleges who denounced black dissidents as disgraceful lawbreakers. These and other black adversaries of the black-liberation struggle failed to recognize that law and order is only presumptively legitimate — that under certain circumstances, like those that obtained in the Jim Crow South, “law and order” is undemocratic, oppressive, and evil, and thus a suitable target for revolt. In the context of the battle over segregation, lawbreakers such as Martin Luther King Jr. and John Lewis are heroes.What I believe the author misses is that scrupulous adherence to white society's standards of dress and behavior while protesting via civil disobedience was necessary then because the mere fact of being black and acting contrary to social custom was a threat to the social hierarchy and brought the threat of death. These strictures are no longer present, thank random forces of the universe, but racism still taints much of our social norms and has a heavily oppressive effect on blacks and not just because they are killed by cops so often.
He further complains
Opponents of respectability politics often talk as though it has never been an effective tool for black activists.His presumption seems to be that it was the respectability part that worked and not the civil disobedience part, or at least, that the civil disobedience would have failed without the respectability part. That is a counterfactual that we cannot directly test, of course, but it is certainly one that can be doubted. I didn't become a successful human being because of the clothing style choices my parents made. While I am sure respectability politics played a role in minimizing the deaths among civil rights activists, it's not as clear to me that it was responsible for its earliest successes. A cynic might argue that more deaths would have led to earlier and stronger public revulsion and political action.
In any event, it isn't the '50s and '60s anymore and blacks do not have to tiptoe around trying to look and act like their white counterparts to be taken seriously. It's okay for them to impolitely express anger about the shitty hands they are still being dealt. And I'm pretty sure the author agrees, but I'm not sure he understands what he is asking for. If he wants blacks to accommodate whites' demands that blacks be held to a higher standing, he is, in the current lingo of psychobabble, enabling them, just as much as the black commentator he criticizes is enabling bad cops when he blames his own targeting on "bad negroes." I fear he may be drawing a line that doesn't exist.
posted by Mental Wimp at 1:25 PM on September 15, 2015 [1 favorite]
Kennedy addresses Coates directly in the article. Horribly mistaken? The article is, I think, really well though out and considers in detail the objections of Coates and others. What part, exactly, was horribly mistaken? Was it this part:
Yes, racism is white people's fault, and white people ought to be the one's to fix it. But, in an analogy Kennedy uses, if I run you over with my car, while I owe you restitution and deserve punishment, only you can do the hard work of convalescence, of returning your mind and body to health.
I dunno. I'm pretty ambivalent about this piece but I don't think it deserves a curt dismissal as though it were thoughtless drivel.
posted by dis_integration at 1:26 PM on September 15, 2015 [14 favorites]
Opponents of respectability politics often talk as though it has never been an effective tool for black activists. “Black folks have already tested out . . . respectability,” Brittney Cooper, a professor at Rutgers, wrote recently. “We’ve been trying to save our lives by dressing right, talking right and never, ever fucking up since about 1877. That shit has not worked.”Let's give this a fair shake (and that would require reading the whole thing), not dismiss it because it runs counter to the conventional wisdom of contemporary civil rights talk. Kennedy knows he is running counter to conventional wisdom and does not fail to acknowledge that and attempt to address it.
One wonders what Cooper has in mind. If she is complaining that blacks still confront racism, even after having ardently practiced respectability politics, then I fully concur. But if she is saying that the precautions undertaken and the cultivation of image pursued by countless blacks have not mattered, then I must object. By dint of intelligent, brave, persistent collective action, African Americans have helped tremendously to transform the United States in ways that offer grounds for encouragement and hope. Indeed, the tone of indignant futility struck by some opponents of black respectability politics is worrying. The politics of black respectability has not banished antiblack racism, but it has improved the racial situation dramatically and has kept alive some black people who might otherwise be dead.
[...]
[There] is an oft-heard critique of the politics of respectability: that it wrongly shifts attention from illegitimate social conditions to the perceived deficiencies of those victimized by those conditions. We err, however, in forcing a Manichaean choice between outward-facing protest and inward-facing character building. The achievements of the civil-rights movement stemmed from and reinforced the reformation of white America, to be sure, but those achievements stemmed from and reinforced the reformation of black America as well. In demanding more of African Americans, most proponents of black respectability politics are not “letting the oppressor off the hook.” They are being realistic in telling blacks that the support or at least the acceptance of many whites is necessary to enact policies that will bring about substantial positive change.
Yes, racism is white people's fault, and white people ought to be the one's to fix it. But, in an analogy Kennedy uses, if I run you over with my car, while I owe you restitution and deserve punishment, only you can do the hard work of convalescence, of returning your mind and body to health.
I dunno. I'm pretty ambivalent about this piece but I don't think it deserves a curt dismissal as though it were thoughtless drivel.
posted by dis_integration at 1:26 PM on September 15, 2015 [14 favorites]
For a contemporary example of this, consider gay marriage. Gays have been granted respectability in American life after concerted efforts to normalize gay life and gay issues over a period of decades. The cost of this respectability was the shoe-horning of gay relationships into the traditional spouse-spouse model of marriage.
So, respectability was gained, but it came at a cost. Something like that will inevitably happen with African Americans in the United States.
Will it be worth it? I have no idea.
posted by Avenger at 1:28 PM on September 15, 2015 [3 favorites]
So, respectability was gained, but it came at a cost. Something like that will inevitably happen with African Americans in the United States.
Will it be worth it? I have no idea.
posted by Avenger at 1:28 PM on September 15, 2015 [3 favorites]
But, in an analogy Kennedy uses, if I run you over with my car, while I owe you restitution and deserve punishment, only you can do the hard work of convalescence, of returning your mind and body to health.
But the problem with that analogy is that it is assuming that there is something broken in black culture in the US, which needs to be repaired. But there isn't, beyond the thousands of cuts that society inflicts on the community. And that is ultimately why respectability politics has been in decline - at its core is the argument that there is something defective, something unrespectable in the group, and thus this needs to be corrected. But if you reject that point - if you say that that there is no intrinsic flaw, then respectability politics begins to look less attractive.
posted by NoxAeternum at 1:50 PM on September 15, 2015 [11 favorites]
But the problem with that analogy is that it is assuming that there is something broken in black culture in the US, which needs to be repaired. But there isn't, beyond the thousands of cuts that society inflicts on the community. And that is ultimately why respectability politics has been in decline - at its core is the argument that there is something defective, something unrespectable in the group, and thus this needs to be corrected. But if you reject that point - if you say that that there is no intrinsic flaw, then respectability politics begins to look less attractive.
posted by NoxAeternum at 1:50 PM on September 15, 2015 [11 favorites]
Gender and sexual minorities have not gained respectability yet, either. There is still a long, hard road ahead. And since a not-insignificant number of those in GSM communities ARE Black, we can't really use one as reliable predictors as what will happen to the other. Intersectionality is real.
posted by Ashen at 1:59 PM on September 15, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by Ashen at 1:59 PM on September 15, 2015 [2 favorites]
This makes me wonder what exactly James Blake could have done differently.
posted by Ouverture at 2:08 PM on September 15, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by Ouverture at 2:08 PM on September 15, 2015 [3 favorites]
And that is ultimately why respectability politics has been in decline - at its core is the argument that there is something defective, something unrespectable in the group, and thus this needs to be corrected. But if you reject that point - if you say that that there is no intrinsic flaw, then respectability politics begins to look less attractive.
NoxAeternum
I think this ignores what Kennedy is arguing for, which Avenger quotes above: respectability politics is, ultimately, a public relations tactic. It is not making a claim about the intrinsic worth of black culture, but that adopting the tactics of respectability will yield better results when interacting with the white majority than otherwise.
And as Avenger says, some level of engagement and negotiation with the white majority is ultimately necessary to improve the condition of black people in the US because the white majority controls the reins of institutional power. If respectability politics can be a useful tactic in achieving black goals, why not at least consider it?
posted by Sangermaine at 2:12 PM on September 15, 2015 [1 favorite]
NoxAeternum
I think this ignores what Kennedy is arguing for, which Avenger quotes above: respectability politics is, ultimately, a public relations tactic. It is not making a claim about the intrinsic worth of black culture, but that adopting the tactics of respectability will yield better results when interacting with the white majority than otherwise.
And as Avenger says, some level of engagement and negotiation with the white majority is ultimately necessary to improve the condition of black people in the US because the white majority controls the reins of institutional power. If respectability politics can be a useful tactic in achieving black goals, why not at least consider it?
posted by Sangermaine at 2:12 PM on September 15, 2015 [1 favorite]
If respectability politics can be a useful tactic in achieving black goals, why not at least consider it?
Because it has failed miserably and contains a very corrosive mindset. If it had actually shown some use, then weighing the utility against the damage it does would be worth doing, but considering that it had failed over and over, why should we consider it?
posted by NoxAeternum at 2:25 PM on September 15, 2015 [5 favorites]
Because it has failed miserably and contains a very corrosive mindset. If it had actually shown some use, then weighing the utility against the damage it does would be worth doing, but considering that it had failed over and over, why should we consider it?
posted by NoxAeternum at 2:25 PM on September 15, 2015 [5 favorites]
From the very first line:
My parents inculcated in me and my two siblings a particular sense of racial kinship: in our dealings with the white world, we were encouraged to think of ourselves as ambassadors of blackness. Our achievements would advance the race, and our failures would hinder it.
It's a pretty screwed up line of thinking, because it effectively stripped those kids of the creative freedom and playing room to define, explore and grow into their Blackness. Rather than explore and connect, fall and rise again, it taught them to place high value on "respectability." But respectability evolves, too: sometimes, it's looking down on HBCUs because they're "too exclusive" when in white company. Sometimes, it's attending those same HBCUs and joining one of the Divine Nine. The question that respectability politics attempts to answer, usually, is this: what can I do to make white people respect me/stop killing me? And it denies that the answer is usually "nothing." It denies that even if one strides towards being a Favored Negro, the goalposts will move, and that respectability politics is really about stamina when chasing a wheel.
He also writes:
Opponents of respectability politics often talk as though it has never been an effective tool for black activists. “Black folks have already tested out . . . respectability,” Brittney Cooper, a professor at Rutgers, wrote recently. “We’ve been trying to save our lives by dressing right, talking right and never, ever fucking up since about 1877. That shit has not worked.” One wonders what Cooper has in mind. If she is complaining that blacks still confront racism, even after having ardently practiced respectability politics, then I fully concur. But if she is saying that the precautions undertaken and the cultivation of image pursued by countless blacks have not mattered, then I must object. . .Indeed, the tone of indignant futility struck by some opponents of black respectability politics is worrying. The politics of black respectability has not banished antiblack racism, but it has improved the racial situation dramatically and has kept alive some black people who might otherwise be dead.
It hasn't, not in the long run. I don't really feel like dredging up the list of our recent dead and injured due to race-related violence, but it's exhaustive enough to fly in the face of this. Respectability, like a perceived lack thereof, can and has been used as a cudgel against Black people. The results that respectability yielded us came with a hefty price: the near-constant invocation of our ghosts, by anyone who wishes that Black activists were as quiet as the grave. To the grave, even. "Hell You Talmbout" exists as a eulogy (of sorts) and a warcry because even despite the fancy suits and flawless SAE and pedigrees of prominent Black people, the fullness of Black humanity is largely unacknowledged.
But I push back against respectability politics passionately and often because I believe that Blackness can and does exist even outside of the context of whiteness; that anti-racism can be taught and embraced without editing Blackness into "PR-friendly" little boxes so that white people aren't put off by witnessing the full range of their humanity. That when the answer to the question "what can I do to stop them from killing me" is "nothing," Black people can seek to live and push for agency on their own terms. Even if those terms don't endear them to white people.
posted by Ashen at 2:33 PM on September 15, 2015 [12 favorites]
My parents inculcated in me and my two siblings a particular sense of racial kinship: in our dealings with the white world, we were encouraged to think of ourselves as ambassadors of blackness. Our achievements would advance the race, and our failures would hinder it.
It's a pretty screwed up line of thinking, because it effectively stripped those kids of the creative freedom and playing room to define, explore and grow into their Blackness. Rather than explore and connect, fall and rise again, it taught them to place high value on "respectability." But respectability evolves, too: sometimes, it's looking down on HBCUs because they're "too exclusive" when in white company. Sometimes, it's attending those same HBCUs and joining one of the Divine Nine. The question that respectability politics attempts to answer, usually, is this: what can I do to make white people respect me/stop killing me? And it denies that the answer is usually "nothing." It denies that even if one strides towards being a Favored Negro, the goalposts will move, and that respectability politics is really about stamina when chasing a wheel.
He also writes:
Opponents of respectability politics often talk as though it has never been an effective tool for black activists. “Black folks have already tested out . . . respectability,” Brittney Cooper, a professor at Rutgers, wrote recently. “We’ve been trying to save our lives by dressing right, talking right and never, ever fucking up since about 1877. That shit has not worked.” One wonders what Cooper has in mind. If she is complaining that blacks still confront racism, even after having ardently practiced respectability politics, then I fully concur. But if she is saying that the precautions undertaken and the cultivation of image pursued by countless blacks have not mattered, then I must object. . .Indeed, the tone of indignant futility struck by some opponents of black respectability politics is worrying. The politics of black respectability has not banished antiblack racism, but it has improved the racial situation dramatically and has kept alive some black people who might otherwise be dead.
It hasn't, not in the long run. I don't really feel like dredging up the list of our recent dead and injured due to race-related violence, but it's exhaustive enough to fly in the face of this. Respectability, like a perceived lack thereof, can and has been used as a cudgel against Black people. The results that respectability yielded us came with a hefty price: the near-constant invocation of our ghosts, by anyone who wishes that Black activists were as quiet as the grave. To the grave, even. "Hell You Talmbout" exists as a eulogy (of sorts) and a warcry because even despite the fancy suits and flawless SAE and pedigrees of prominent Black people, the fullness of Black humanity is largely unacknowledged.
But I push back against respectability politics passionately and often because I believe that Blackness can and does exist even outside of the context of whiteness; that anti-racism can be taught and embraced without editing Blackness into "PR-friendly" little boxes so that white people aren't put off by witnessing the full range of their humanity. That when the answer to the question "what can I do to stop them from killing me" is "nothing," Black people can seek to live and push for agency on their own terms. Even if those terms don't endear them to white people.
posted by Ashen at 2:33 PM on September 15, 2015 [12 favorites]
That when the answer to the question "what can I do to stop them from killing me" is "nothing," Black people can seek to live and push for agency on their own terms. Even if those terms don't endear them to white people.
posted by Ashen at 2:33 PM on September 15 [1 favorite +] [!]
A serious question: if there is really nothing that can be done to stop white people from murdering black people, then ... what is to be done?
What does self-defined black agency look like in a country where 70% of the population is morally and spiritually committed to the violent oppression of 10%?
posted by Avenger at 2:43 PM on September 15, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by Ashen at 2:33 PM on September 15 [1 favorite +] [!]
A serious question: if there is really nothing that can be done to stop white people from murdering black people, then ... what is to be done?
What does self-defined black agency look like in a country where 70% of the population is morally and spiritually committed to the violent oppression of 10%?
posted by Avenger at 2:43 PM on September 15, 2015 [1 favorite]
Not to be dismissive, but it's as simple as staring down the barrel of that particular gun and living anyway: who you are, your interests, your public presentation, your professional goals, all of those things stop being tightly controlled by the fact that "70% of the population is morally and spiritually committed to the violent oppression of 10%."
posted by Ashen at 2:49 PM on September 15, 2015 [6 favorites]
posted by Ashen at 2:49 PM on September 15, 2015 [6 favorites]
Or, if this is more helpful, a personal example:
I used to be convinced that the only way that I could ever be perceived as a professional was to perm my hair. Only until - what, college, I guess - did I start to challenge that, upon the realization that having bone-straight hair didn't actually help. Choosing to adopt a variety of hairstyles, regardless of the presence of the white gaze, is an act of agency.
posted by Ashen at 2:54 PM on September 15, 2015 [8 favorites]
I used to be convinced that the only way that I could ever be perceived as a professional was to perm my hair. Only until - what, college, I guess - did I start to challenge that, upon the realization that having bone-straight hair didn't actually help. Choosing to adopt a variety of hairstyles, regardless of the presence of the white gaze, is an act of agency.
posted by Ashen at 2:54 PM on September 15, 2015 [8 favorites]
So ...if I'm reading you correctly, you'd argue that there really is no hope of true racial justice in the U.S., and that the only sensible thing to do is reclaim internal dignity and humanity in the face of this reality?
posted by Avenger at 2:55 PM on September 15, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by Avenger at 2:55 PM on September 15, 2015 [1 favorite]
No, he's not saying that. What he's saying is that respectability isn't going to get you where you want to go, and it poisons your soul in an incredibly insidious way. It's seductive, just like Lucy holding the football was seductive to Charlie Brown. And just like Chuck, the football always gets moved.
posted by NoxAeternum at 3:15 PM on September 15, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by NoxAeternum at 3:15 PM on September 15, 2015 [1 favorite]
NoxAeternum what do you think about the specific examples cited in the article, such as Thurgood Marshall screening people he would represent. How can you say that he, of all people, didn't make progress?
posted by sp160n at 3:17 PM on September 15, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by sp160n at 3:17 PM on September 15, 2015 [2 favorites]
You'd argue that there really is no hope of true racial justice in the U.S., and that the only sensible thing to do is reclaim internal dignity and humanity in the face of this reality?
It depends on how "true racial justice" is defined.
Where "true racial justice" is defined as "90% or more of people in the US are tolerant, if not downright welcoming of POC, and where people actively challenge their biases and have an invested interest in cultivating meaningful relationships with different racial groups:" I argue that this will not happen, and the best method of dealing with this is to live your life and navigate the world on your own terms, and not restrict this for fear of failing to be enough of a credit to Black people (as to justify better treatment of them by everyone else).
Where "true racial justice" is defined as "practical legislative and other reform measures that address the deep history of racism and its lasting legacy, measures which also seek to halt if not reverse the damage dealt to the psychological, cultural and economic health of Black communities:" I argue that there is in fact hope, and one of the crucial steps towards seeing that come true is not reclaiming but affirming one's dignity and humanity, however one comes to define those things for oneself.
posted by Ashen at 3:17 PM on September 15, 2015 [4 favorites]
It depends on how "true racial justice" is defined.
Where "true racial justice" is defined as "90% or more of people in the US are tolerant, if not downright welcoming of POC, and where people actively challenge their biases and have an invested interest in cultivating meaningful relationships with different racial groups:" I argue that this will not happen, and the best method of dealing with this is to live your life and navigate the world on your own terms, and not restrict this for fear of failing to be enough of a credit to Black people (as to justify better treatment of them by everyone else).
Where "true racial justice" is defined as "practical legislative and other reform measures that address the deep history of racism and its lasting legacy, measures which also seek to halt if not reverse the damage dealt to the psychological, cultural and economic health of Black communities:" I argue that there is in fact hope, and one of the crucial steps towards seeing that come true is not reclaiming but affirming one's dignity and humanity, however one comes to define those things for oneself.
posted by Ashen at 3:17 PM on September 15, 2015 [4 favorites]
Gays have been granted respectability in American life
hahaaahahaha no we have not
A serious question: if there is really nothing that can be done to stop white people from murdering black people, then ... what is to be done? ... What does self-defined black agency look like in a country where 70% of the population is morally and spiritually committed to the violent oppression of 10%?
Remember "we're here, we're queer, get used to it"? Same thing.
NoxAeternum what do you think about the specific examples cited in the article, such as Thurgood Marshall screening people he would represent. How can you say that he, of all people, didn't make progress?
Outliers are generally a poor way of seeing trends.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 3:19 PM on September 15, 2015 [2 favorites]
hahaaahahaha no we have not
A serious question: if there is really nothing that can be done to stop white people from murdering black people, then ... what is to be done? ... What does self-defined black agency look like in a country where 70% of the population is morally and spiritually committed to the violent oppression of 10%?
Remember "we're here, we're queer, get used to it"? Same thing.
NoxAeternum what do you think about the specific examples cited in the article, such as Thurgood Marshall screening people he would represent. How can you say that he, of all people, didn't make progress?
Outliers are generally a poor way of seeing trends.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 3:19 PM on September 15, 2015 [2 favorites]
In terms of racial reconciliation and the white majority:
Whites aren't identical. It's possible to split off sympathetic or at least tolerant whites from other whites. That's how you build a coalition - you don't say "only if I can get over with the most conservative of my opponents can I succeed", you build your coalition with people who are sympathetic. No one needs to win over all the white people, just a large enough percentage to win in coalition with Black people and other people of color. As a white person, my suspicion is that respectability politics is never going to win over some white people, and with the other white people it's largely neutral.
My experience of Black Lives Matter events is that no matter how cooperative Black organizers are, the protests are inherently read as "unrespectable", because specifying that Black lives matter is too much of a challenge to many white people.
My experience of every racial justice based thing I have observed or been part of is that organizers aren't dummies - they use a mix of tactics from the unrespectablely truculent to the besuited and polite depending on what they think they can achieve. You can have a broadly "unrespectable" belief system that none the less incorporates putting on your suit and going down to City Hall.
Some gays have been granted much respectability. Most of us aren't white, middle class, monogamous, thin, youngish, family-oriented, not overtly sexual, able-bodied, gender-conforming AND politically centrist city-dwellers, so we don't really fit the bill. That's the cost - it's not that all gays get some respectability, it's that some gays get virtually all of it
posted by Frowner at 3:23 PM on September 15, 2015 [17 favorites]
Whites aren't identical. It's possible to split off sympathetic or at least tolerant whites from other whites. That's how you build a coalition - you don't say "only if I can get over with the most conservative of my opponents can I succeed", you build your coalition with people who are sympathetic. No one needs to win over all the white people, just a large enough percentage to win in coalition with Black people and other people of color. As a white person, my suspicion is that respectability politics is never going to win over some white people, and with the other white people it's largely neutral.
My experience of Black Lives Matter events is that no matter how cooperative Black organizers are, the protests are inherently read as "unrespectable", because specifying that Black lives matter is too much of a challenge to many white people.
My experience of every racial justice based thing I have observed or been part of is that organizers aren't dummies - they use a mix of tactics from the unrespectablely truculent to the besuited and polite depending on what they think they can achieve. You can have a broadly "unrespectable" belief system that none the less incorporates putting on your suit and going down to City Hall.
Some gays have been granted much respectability. Most of us aren't white, middle class, monogamous, thin, youngish, family-oriented, not overtly sexual, able-bodied, gender-conforming AND politically centrist city-dwellers, so we don't really fit the bill. That's the cost - it's not that all gays get some respectability, it's that some gays get virtually all of it
posted by Frowner at 3:23 PM on September 15, 2015 [17 favorites]
To expand, a very few specific types of gender/sexual minorities have been granted respectability: nonthreatening (Anderson Cooper) presents-as-straight guys, not-overly-butch lesbians (Ellen, Rosie), and campy best friends (Jack from Will & Grace). Flaming-and-not-fucking-around-with-it is still not respectable (Adam Lambert, Johnny Weir), lesbians have to conform to either butch, corporate ice queen, or giggly girl with lipstick for the male gaze. The only respectable trans people are those who fully conform/pass as their true gender identity, and are therefore mainstream sexy (LaVerne Cox, Aydian Dowling).
We have--as long as you're The Right Sort Of Gay/Lesbian/Trans/____ Person---attained a sort of tolerance detente. We are far from respectable, outside of extremely tightly defined roles that may as well just be another closet.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 3:25 PM on September 15, 2015 [2 favorites]
We have--as long as you're The Right Sort Of Gay/Lesbian/Trans/____ Person---attained a sort of tolerance detente. We are far from respectable, outside of extremely tightly defined roles that may as well just be another closet.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 3:25 PM on September 15, 2015 [2 favorites]
feckless: I wasn't speaking of Thurgood Marshall's personal benefit from choosing 'respectable' clients, but rather the good he was able to bring others through that.
posted by sp160n at 3:29 PM on September 15, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by sp160n at 3:29 PM on September 15, 2015 [1 favorite]
And what of the cost of reinforcing the notion that one must adhere to respectability politics in order to get the--in this case, legal--services you need?
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 3:38 PM on September 15, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 3:38 PM on September 15, 2015 [1 favorite]
I think the respectability that gays have won only extends so far as straight people feel comfortable entering our spaces and adopting our culture without being met with resistance. I think when something is inaccessible or uncomfortable to those in the majority, it's quickly looked down upon and fought until it is destroyed or assimilated.
posted by C'est la D.C. at 3:50 PM on September 15, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by C'est la D.C. at 3:50 PM on September 15, 2015 [4 favorites]
Seconded. See: NYC ball culture.
Also, this reminds me that respectability for Black people also involves strict gender performance. So straight out the gate, an argument in favor of respectability politics immediately penalizes Black people who aren't cis or straight.
posted by Ashen at 4:36 PM on September 15, 2015 [3 favorites]
Also, this reminds me that respectability for Black people also involves strict gender performance. So straight out the gate, an argument in favor of respectability politics immediately penalizes Black people who aren't cis or straight.
posted by Ashen at 4:36 PM on September 15, 2015 [3 favorites]
The real downside of "respectability" wasn't touched on at all in this article, it seems to me: the fact that it led to much of the leadership within the black community lending support to the war on drugs and other policies that led to mass incarceration. It is very rarely mentioned, but white drug warriors benefitted greatly from the support of black drug warriors like Rep. Charles Rangel (a huge fan, in the 80s and 90s, of ever tougher drug sentencing and opponent of needle exchange).
Without the support of "respectable" black leaders, it would have been much harder to hide the racism that became all-too-obvious in the crack/powder sentencing disparity, which wound up with 90% of those sentenced for federal crack crimes being black (even though whites and blacks use cocaine at about the same rates and IV cocaine from powder is every bit as addictive as crack).
Respectability unfortunately led many black people to support policies that wound up locking up huge numbers of African Americans and spreading HIV. Obviously, that wasn't their intent— but the focus on being "respectable" and distancing themselves from the "bad" black people who take drugs seems to have ended up supporting a lot of oppression.
I'd like to hear what supporters of respectability say about this issue: it seems to me to be the best case those who oppose it have against it. How do you support "respectability" while not supporting the oppression of the most troubled and vulnerable?
posted by Maias at 4:38 PM on September 15, 2015 [4 favorites]
Without the support of "respectable" black leaders, it would have been much harder to hide the racism that became all-too-obvious in the crack/powder sentencing disparity, which wound up with 90% of those sentenced for federal crack crimes being black (even though whites and blacks use cocaine at about the same rates and IV cocaine from powder is every bit as addictive as crack).
Respectability unfortunately led many black people to support policies that wound up locking up huge numbers of African Americans and spreading HIV. Obviously, that wasn't their intent— but the focus on being "respectable" and distancing themselves from the "bad" black people who take drugs seems to have ended up supporting a lot of oppression.
I'd like to hear what supporters of respectability say about this issue: it seems to me to be the best case those who oppose it have against it. How do you support "respectability" while not supporting the oppression of the most troubled and vulnerable?
posted by Maias at 4:38 PM on September 15, 2015 [4 favorites]
I found the part about whitespreading on public transportation as a deliberate tactic interesting. Right down to people trying to passively aggressively sit on the spreaders.
posted by Drinky Die at 4:49 PM on September 15, 2015
posted by Drinky Die at 4:49 PM on September 15, 2015
And I just realized all but one of the examples I listed are, as far as I know, people who identify as white. Which says something, doesn't it?
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 5:35 PM on September 15, 2015
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 5:35 PM on September 15, 2015
feckless: I think you're missing the point of the article. Esp. WRT Thurgood Marshall.
The author points to respectability as a tactic. All tactics have plusses and minuses. If you're going to sit there with a straight face and say that Thurgood Marshall set civil rights back, you're free to do so, but pardon me if I walk away shaking my head.
Was there some dignity lost in his decision? Yes. Was a greater good achieved as a result of his savvy? Yes. Maybe I'm showing my utilitarian leanings, but I'll take effective tactics to ineffective principled stands any day of the week.
posted by sp160n at 5:47 PM on September 15, 2015 [3 favorites]
The author points to respectability as a tactic. All tactics have plusses and minuses. If you're going to sit there with a straight face and say that Thurgood Marshall set civil rights back, you're free to do so, but pardon me if I walk away shaking my head.
Was there some dignity lost in his decision? Yes. Was a greater good achieved as a result of his savvy? Yes. Maybe I'm showing my utilitarian leanings, but I'll take effective tactics to ineffective principled stands any day of the week.
posted by sp160n at 5:47 PM on September 15, 2015 [3 favorites]
If you're going to sit there with a straight face and say that Thurgood Marshall set civil rights back
If I were going to say that I would have said it, so please don't do this.
One can wonder about the possible network benefits to society of 'unrespectable' defendants gaining access to one of the top legal minds of the day as combating institutionalized racism on a grassroots level without resorting to absurdities and sideways claiming that someone said Thurgood Marshall set civil rights back.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 5:51 PM on September 15, 2015 [1 favorite]
If I were going to say that I would have said it, so please don't do this.
One can wonder about the possible network benefits to society of 'unrespectable' defendants gaining access to one of the top legal minds of the day as combating institutionalized racism on a grassroots level without resorting to absurdities and sideways claiming that someone said Thurgood Marshall set civil rights back.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 5:51 PM on September 15, 2015 [1 favorite]
I believe that respectability works. After all, didn't we just discuss how positive images of diverse characters reduces bias?
For people who think it didn't affect the civil rights movement of the sixties, I'd remind them that George Wallace famously said that he knew segregation was untenable after film footage of the police attacking peaceful black protestors with fire hoses. That image wouldn't have been as effective if they were burning cars. People could dismiss that and say the force was clearly necessary.
That is not to say that respectability politics is without it's price. It's dehumanizing at a fundamental level, because it accepts the power imbalance between the oppressor and the victim. It also hopes to change the power imbalance, but it's a long time to deny the human instinct to act out against the injustice.
So I don't think the black community should feel beholden to respectability politics. The rioting in Baltimore was completely understandable. It was probably immensely powerful to finally unleash your rage at the system. It was certainly cathartic to see the racist system burn at least a small amount.
But we can't lie and say that rioting didn't directly harm Black Lives Matter.
posted by politikitty at 6:27 PM on September 15, 2015 [3 favorites]
For people who think it didn't affect the civil rights movement of the sixties, I'd remind them that George Wallace famously said that he knew segregation was untenable after film footage of the police attacking peaceful black protestors with fire hoses. That image wouldn't have been as effective if they were burning cars. People could dismiss that and say the force was clearly necessary.
That is not to say that respectability politics is without it's price. It's dehumanizing at a fundamental level, because it accepts the power imbalance between the oppressor and the victim. It also hopes to change the power imbalance, but it's a long time to deny the human instinct to act out against the injustice.
So I don't think the black community should feel beholden to respectability politics. The rioting in Baltimore was completely understandable. It was probably immensely powerful to finally unleash your rage at the system. It was certainly cathartic to see the racist system burn at least a small amount.
But we can't lie and say that rioting didn't directly harm Black Lives Matter.
posted by politikitty at 6:27 PM on September 15, 2015 [3 favorites]
Respectability is one tactic that may work in certain contexts to a certain extent. It is not and cannot be the only tool in the box.
posted by rtha at 6:38 PM on September 15, 2015 [6 favorites]
posted by rtha at 6:38 PM on September 15, 2015 [6 favorites]
Agreed. People talk about respectability politics as if it were meant to find a golden mean of acceptance for all or most of X, which doesn't exist, and that's why it falls apart when attempted. You platform up with sympathetic swaths of X, where, when and if possible. That's how I've seen it applied in practice anyway.
posted by Aya Hirano on the Astral Plane at 7:06 PM on September 15, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by Aya Hirano on the Astral Plane at 7:06 PM on September 15, 2015 [1 favorite]
No segment of the Mittel-European community pursued bourgeois respectability more than the Jews. Some ridiculous percentage of Hungarian professionals were Jewish, because they were avidly seeking the dream of a nice house with a cook and a maid and an apartment in Budapest for the theatre. The German and Austrian Jews were like that but more so. This didn't help them one bit when the Nazis came.
To quote an American philosopher: haters gonna hate.
posted by Joe in Australia at 9:51 PM on September 15, 2015 [1 favorite]
To quote an American philosopher: haters gonna hate.
posted by Joe in Australia at 9:51 PM on September 15, 2015 [1 favorite]
What does it take to gain respectability? Maybe driving a BMW? Apparently not.
I'm not big on Anecdotal Evidence, but this shit is something that only has to happen ONCE to speak volumes.
posted by oneswellfoop at 10:43 PM on September 15, 2015 [3 favorites]
I'm not big on Anecdotal Evidence, but this shit is something that only has to happen ONCE to speak volumes.
posted by oneswellfoop at 10:43 PM on September 15, 2015 [3 favorites]
I was heretofore unable of the term "respectability politics". I am inclined to agree with Mr. Kennedy's point of view, and the aptness of this label is partially why.
To me, as with all things political, he's describing a code of conduct that involves rhetoric, comportment, posturing, and acting with an eye on a bigger picture. Other commenters here have characterized it as a tactic, I conceptualize it as the endpoint on a spectrum. For me the other endpoint might be thought of as "personal (or racial) identity", where the filter is off, the emotions are live, the expression is immediate.
A person's point on the spectrum varies. It varies if you're with a circle of friends, or on a freedom march with cameras all around. If you're in school, in church, on a street downtown in the south, or a street in a college town. If you're a wizened elder, or a young man. Learning to navigate, deftly and smoothly along this spectrum is a vital, critical skill, and I interpret Mr. Kennedy's main point (some of his paragraphs feel long-winded, he drifts around a bit) as saying exactly this.
Holding onto my spectrum idea, you might say (and I'm flinging full colanders of spaghetti at the wall, here) that, vis-a-vis POC and respectability politics, this spectrum has a greater amplitude (or gradient, what word am I grasping for...) than for other folks. Or, a person of color might be seen (whether fairly or not) to be on one extreme of this spectrum or the other based on a single action (e.g. sagging pants, conspicuously polite demeanor) rather than being afforded the ability to demonstrate they can occupy various points on the spectrum, at various times -- cf the "at school, at church, with friends, on the street, etc" example above. I would think it's patently obvious to most folks humans will adjust comportment given the circumstances, but Kennedy is keenly aware that while this adjustment is a conjunction for the racial majority (you can be polite and proper in public AND a good ol boy with friends), it is seen as more of a disjunction for the racial minority (you're polite OR you're a thug).
posted by Theophrastus Johnson at 11:28 PM on September 15, 2015 [1 favorite]
To me, as with all things political, he's describing a code of conduct that involves rhetoric, comportment, posturing, and acting with an eye on a bigger picture. Other commenters here have characterized it as a tactic, I conceptualize it as the endpoint on a spectrum. For me the other endpoint might be thought of as "personal (or racial) identity", where the filter is off, the emotions are live, the expression is immediate.
A person's point on the spectrum varies. It varies if you're with a circle of friends, or on a freedom march with cameras all around. If you're in school, in church, on a street downtown in the south, or a street in a college town. If you're a wizened elder, or a young man. Learning to navigate, deftly and smoothly along this spectrum is a vital, critical skill, and I interpret Mr. Kennedy's main point (some of his paragraphs feel long-winded, he drifts around a bit) as saying exactly this.
Holding onto my spectrum idea, you might say (and I'm flinging full colanders of spaghetti at the wall, here) that, vis-a-vis POC and respectability politics, this spectrum has a greater amplitude (or gradient, what word am I grasping for...) than for other folks. Or, a person of color might be seen (whether fairly or not) to be on one extreme of this spectrum or the other based on a single action (e.g. sagging pants, conspicuously polite demeanor) rather than being afforded the ability to demonstrate they can occupy various points on the spectrum, at various times -- cf the "at school, at church, with friends, on the street, etc" example above. I would think it's patently obvious to most folks humans will adjust comportment given the circumstances, but Kennedy is keenly aware that while this adjustment is a conjunction for the racial majority (you can be polite and proper in public AND a good ol boy with friends), it is seen as more of a disjunction for the racial minority (you're polite OR you're a thug).
posted by Theophrastus Johnson at 11:28 PM on September 15, 2015 [1 favorite]
I think that's the wrong way to look at the effect of respectability.
Respectability politics is enduring racism while staying above reproach. It's denying racists the argument that he was no angel.
With James Blake, I'm seeing that happen. While the police union issued their usual bullshit, there is not the level of police support that I've seen after recent shootings.
It is absolutely unfair to expect people to act so composed for the opportunity to be a perfect victim. But when it happens, it absolutely shifts views.
posted by politikitty at 12:04 AM on September 16, 2015 [3 favorites]
Respectability politics is enduring racism while staying above reproach. It's denying racists the argument that he was no angel.
With James Blake, I'm seeing that happen. While the police union issued their usual bullshit, there is not the level of police support that I've seen after recent shootings.
It is absolutely unfair to expect people to act so composed for the opportunity to be a perfect victim. But when it happens, it absolutely shifts views.
posted by politikitty at 12:04 AM on September 16, 2015 [3 favorites]
Respectability politics is enduring racism while staying above reproach. It's denying racists the argument that he was no angel.
The effort will nonetheless be made, and that anyone who devalues Black lives will try to squeeze blood from a stone to justify violence and death in that circumstance. They certainly did it to Sandra Bland. They would do it to any of us.
Should we all be living for our day in the news if we fall to a hate crime, so that our deaths will be useful in a fight for equality? It's effectively what's being asked of us.
posted by Ashen at 5:25 AM on September 16, 2015 [1 favorite]
The effort will nonetheless be made, and that anyone who devalues Black lives will try to squeeze blood from a stone to justify violence and death in that circumstance. They certainly did it to Sandra Bland. They would do it to any of us.
Should we all be living for our day in the news if we fall to a hate crime, so that our deaths will be useful in a fight for equality? It's effectively what's being asked of us.
posted by Ashen at 5:25 AM on September 16, 2015 [1 favorite]
Respectability politics is enduring racism while staying above reproach. It's denying racists the argument that he was no angel.
Pfft. Tamir Rice was 11 years old and they made him out to be a thug. Trayvon Martin looked so young and clean-cut that they replaced his pictures with a tattooed rapper almost twice his age. Racists will always have an argument that PoC are no angels, even if they have to manufacture it on the spot.
posted by zombieflanders at 6:01 AM on September 16, 2015 [3 favorites]
Pfft. Tamir Rice was 11 years old and they made him out to be a thug. Trayvon Martin looked so young and clean-cut that they replaced his pictures with a tattooed rapper almost twice his age. Racists will always have an argument that PoC are no angels, even if they have to manufacture it on the spot.
posted by zombieflanders at 6:01 AM on September 16, 2015 [3 favorites]
While I think it's dangerous to draw parallels between Black and gay experience - given all that "gay is the new Black" nonsense - we certainly saw a lot of respectability politics during the AIDS epidemic, with only victims who looked attractive and either were heterosexual or could be portrayed as Tragic Gays being acceptable in public discourse. This absolutely shaped people's access to care, employability, safety on the street, etc. Also, the face of the acceptable AIDS victim was always white, which is part of why we don't have adequate resources for people of color with HIV now. The discourse about AIDS prevention, the rights of the HIV-positive and access to care was absolutely shaped by respectability politics, and as a result, people died or were harmed.
I think that even if there are "perfect" Black victims of police brutality, that will probably do very little for regular people who are not perfect, because public policy and expectations will be shaped around the experience of the "perfect".
Also, what if you were "perfect except".....what if you lived an exemplary life but five years ago when you were fifteen you had a shoplifting conviction? What if you were a great, reliable person except you had an anxiety disorder and smoked a little weed in the evenings to cope? What if you were a woman who left her kids in the car so she could go to a job interview? People can be as perfect as their lives allow but still have enough "wrong" to get smeared in the media. And I think that the more marginalized someone is, the less "perfect" they've going to be able to be - several of the best humans I know have criminal convictions and one has been in jail, in each case due to survival while homeless.
And honestly, the law means fuck-all unless it applies equally to a lousy human being and a great human being - that's the whole point of civil society and the only excuse for it in my mind. If it's going to be that the law is used by the elite to punish the poor and to protect themselves, then we might as well have anarchism.
posted by Frowner at 6:18 AM on September 16, 2015 [5 favorites]
I think that even if there are "perfect" Black victims of police brutality, that will probably do very little for regular people who are not perfect, because public policy and expectations will be shaped around the experience of the "perfect".
Also, what if you were "perfect except".....what if you lived an exemplary life but five years ago when you were fifteen you had a shoplifting conviction? What if you were a great, reliable person except you had an anxiety disorder and smoked a little weed in the evenings to cope? What if you were a woman who left her kids in the car so she could go to a job interview? People can be as perfect as their lives allow but still have enough "wrong" to get smeared in the media. And I think that the more marginalized someone is, the less "perfect" they've going to be able to be - several of the best humans I know have criminal convictions and one has been in jail, in each case due to survival while homeless.
And honestly, the law means fuck-all unless it applies equally to a lousy human being and a great human being - that's the whole point of civil society and the only excuse for it in my mind. If it's going to be that the law is used by the elite to punish the poor and to protect themselves, then we might as well have anarchism.
posted by Frowner at 6:18 AM on September 16, 2015 [5 favorites]
I was going to mention Tamir Rice, too, who never got the option to be an angel in the service of his race.
And down the hall, there's a post about a 14-year-old boy with a Muslim name who had the temerity to bring a clock he'd made to school and got arrested for bringing a thing that looked like a bomb. He should have known better, or his parents should have, I guess. Who knows, he probably wears his pants baggy too.
posted by rtha at 6:23 AM on September 16, 2015 [2 favorites]
And down the hall, there's a post about a 14-year-old boy with a Muslim name who had the temerity to bring a clock he'd made to school and got arrested for bringing a thing that looked like a bomb. He should have known better, or his parents should have, I guess. Who knows, he probably wears his pants baggy too.
posted by rtha at 6:23 AM on September 16, 2015 [2 favorites]
I think something people in context have to understand is that as much as black people have tired of the politics of respectability,they have more tired of respectable black people. There is an inevitable tension in any black political leadership that makes a respectability a primary goal. Do you serve black people or do you appear respectable? I think from the 60s on black people have tired of coming in second place.
posted by Rubbstone at 7:18 AM on September 16, 2015
posted by Rubbstone at 7:18 AM on September 16, 2015
I can't say that I find it particularly surprising to find a defense of respectability politics from a Harvard Law Prof. I mean there are few people better positioned to say "it's worked for me."
In a sense it's good to see active debate on the topic from both sides, and not just pontification from one viewpoint or another. What I'd really love to see is for the debate to garner some attention from people who's viewpoints on it I can't even begin to guess at. One particular example who comes to mind is Dr. Dre. Also, having lived outside of the USA for my entire life, I can't help but wonder at how this affects (and is thought of) by non-American black people by virtue of American cultural/media hegemony. I can confidently say from the times that I've visited the States that what I've seen of American black people is *really* different from what I can see of Canadian black people (though I don't know how much sampling bias fits in there--I see a lot more Canadian black people of the sort who'd fit within my social circle, for the simple reason that my social circle exists up here and I'm heavily exposed to it). Are there aspects of this debate that are e.g. mirrored in the perception of sub-Saharan African nations as "basket cases", and the struggles of members of their political classes to overcome this perception?
Maybe it's time for me to audit some black history courses or somesuch (say, does anyone know of any good podcasts of this sort? I like giving my brain something to chew on when I'm washing the dishes...)
posted by kiwano at 9:03 AM on September 16, 2015
In a sense it's good to see active debate on the topic from both sides, and not just pontification from one viewpoint or another. What I'd really love to see is for the debate to garner some attention from people who's viewpoints on it I can't even begin to guess at. One particular example who comes to mind is Dr. Dre. Also, having lived outside of the USA for my entire life, I can't help but wonder at how this affects (and is thought of) by non-American black people by virtue of American cultural/media hegemony. I can confidently say from the times that I've visited the States that what I've seen of American black people is *really* different from what I can see of Canadian black people (though I don't know how much sampling bias fits in there--I see a lot more Canadian black people of the sort who'd fit within my social circle, for the simple reason that my social circle exists up here and I'm heavily exposed to it). Are there aspects of this debate that are e.g. mirrored in the perception of sub-Saharan African nations as "basket cases", and the struggles of members of their political classes to overcome this perception?
Maybe it's time for me to audit some black history courses or somesuch (say, does anyone know of any good podcasts of this sort? I like giving my brain something to chew on when I'm washing the dishes...)
posted by kiwano at 9:03 AM on September 16, 2015
Tamir Rice was 11 years old and they made him out to be a thug. Trayvon Martin looked so young and clean-cut that they replaced his pictures with a tattooed rapper almost twice his age.
You can't say that respectability failed there because racists exist. You have to show that no people gave pause to Tamir Rice's age, when considering whether or not the police were justified.
We've seen a real shift in public opinion among whites. 60% of whites thought these killings were isolated instances as late as December. In May, only 45% of whites still believed that.
When we're talking about something so deeply ingrained as race relations, that's a huge shift. It was enough to get a lot of great legislation about body cams, and even criminal charges against police.
I'm not saying we've fixed everything and there's nothing to worry about. But that's real tangible change both in the culture and legal system.
posted by politikitty at 10:26 AM on September 16, 2015
You can't say that respectability failed there because racists exist. You have to show that no people gave pause to Tamir Rice's age, when considering whether or not the police were justified.
We've seen a real shift in public opinion among whites. 60% of whites thought these killings were isolated instances as late as December. In May, only 45% of whites still believed that.
When we're talking about something so deeply ingrained as race relations, that's a huge shift. It was enough to get a lot of great legislation about body cams, and even criminal charges against police.
I'm not saying we've fixed everything and there's nothing to worry about. But that's real tangible change both in the culture and legal system.
posted by politikitty at 10:26 AM on September 16, 2015
You can't say that respectability failed there because racists exist. You have to show that no people gave pause to Tamir Rice's age, when considering whether or not the police were justified.
I don't have to show that "no people" gave pause, just enough. And that's exactly what happened.
We've seen a real shift in public opinion among whites. 60% of whites thought these killings were isolated instances as late as December. In May, only 45% of whites still believed that.
Actually, if you pay attention to the trend lines from the study you link to, it says that there hasn't been a real shift at all. We're at almost exactly the same place we were when the LA riots happened 23 years ago, and perceptions are more likely highly dependent on what kinds of incidents happen and when. In other words, all it really takes for white people to change their minds en masse is something else that re-introduces the image of blacks-as-thugs into the popular imagination.
When we're talking about something so deeply ingrained as race relations, that's a huge shift. It was enough to get a lot of great legislation about body cams, and even criminal charges against police.
That depends on how you define "a lot" and if so, whether or not the implementation has been successful, and whether charges are part of a trend. There are pretty strong arguments against all of those. And in fact, I'd argue that it's civilian cameras that have had a much, much higher effect on the conversation.
posted by zombieflanders at 10:41 AM on September 16, 2015 [1 favorite]
I don't have to show that "no people" gave pause, just enough. And that's exactly what happened.
We've seen a real shift in public opinion among whites. 60% of whites thought these killings were isolated instances as late as December. In May, only 45% of whites still believed that.
Actually, if you pay attention to the trend lines from the study you link to, it says that there hasn't been a real shift at all. We're at almost exactly the same place we were when the LA riots happened 23 years ago, and perceptions are more likely highly dependent on what kinds of incidents happen and when. In other words, all it really takes for white people to change their minds en masse is something else that re-introduces the image of blacks-as-thugs into the popular imagination.
When we're talking about something so deeply ingrained as race relations, that's a huge shift. It was enough to get a lot of great legislation about body cams, and even criminal charges against police.
That depends on how you define "a lot" and if so, whether or not the implementation has been successful, and whether charges are part of a trend. There are pretty strong arguments against all of those. And in fact, I'd argue that it's civilian cameras that have had a much, much higher effect on the conversation.
posted by zombieflanders at 10:41 AM on September 16, 2015 [1 favorite]
Or you could say that it's private cameras that proved the utility of having more public cameras.
posted by politikitty at 10:51 AM on September 16, 2015
posted by politikitty at 10:51 AM on September 16, 2015
I could also say that private cameras proved the utility of the surveillance state, insofar that it has so far only exacerbated the justice system's effect on PoC.
posted by zombieflanders at 11:07 AM on September 16, 2015
posted by zombieflanders at 11:07 AM on September 16, 2015
Furthermore, it's not the absolute change in white opinion that matters, but the difference between white and black opinion of the justice system. In the 90's, there was a 40 point gap. now there is a 30 point gap.
That says that there's a better understanding by whites of the black experience. As black citizens are feeling like they're getting a fairer shake in the legal system, and getting some redress, whites are recognizing the gulf between their experiences with the police.
Sandra Bland is a perfect personal example. While I've always believed the legal system is racist, and that there are racists cops who abuse the system, I also felt that the police in the community I grew up in were decent guys. Similar to the "Congress is terrible, but my congressman is decent" phenomenon.
She was pulled over on a road where I was guilty of a lot of teenage speeding. I'd gotten plenty of warnings, and had respectful interactions with the police.
It haunted me how shocked and betrayed I felt about my community. Even though I agreed in principal, I was also guilty of underestimating the amount of racism in my midst.
posted by politikitty at 11:09 AM on September 16, 2015
That says that there's a better understanding by whites of the black experience. As black citizens are feeling like they're getting a fairer shake in the legal system, and getting some redress, whites are recognizing the gulf between their experiences with the police.
Sandra Bland is a perfect personal example. While I've always believed the legal system is racist, and that there are racists cops who abuse the system, I also felt that the police in the community I grew up in were decent guys. Similar to the "Congress is terrible, but my congressman is decent" phenomenon.
She was pulled over on a road where I was guilty of a lot of teenage speeding. I'd gotten plenty of warnings, and had respectful interactions with the police.
It haunted me how shocked and betrayed I felt about my community. Even though I agreed in principal, I was also guilty of underestimating the amount of racism in my midst.
posted by politikitty at 11:09 AM on September 16, 2015
Furthermore, it's not the absolute change in white opinion that matters, but the difference between white and black opinion of the justice system. In the 90's, there was a 40 point gap. now there is a 30 point gap.
Again, that's not what the trends are showing us. 9 months ago, there was also a 40 point gap. There has been some narrowing over the years, but not anything that drastic or with any staying power to speak of.
posted by zombieflanders at 11:17 AM on September 16, 2015
Again, that's not what the trends are showing us. 9 months ago, there was also a 40 point gap. There has been some narrowing over the years, but not anything that drastic or with any staying power to speak of.
posted by zombieflanders at 11:17 AM on September 16, 2015
The average over the last three years is 32.6, marred by a fairly brief period where the gap jumped to 40. Sept 2014, the gap was 30 points and by May it was down to 29 points.
Meanwhile in the nineties, the average is 38. There the average stays close to 40, except a brief period where the Good Ol Boy Roundup reminded whites that racism still exists.
5.4 points is drastic change. We know that attitudes about race are very difficult to change.
I never said that this is going to be easy. People want to believe that they are good. Every step forward will be met with a feeling of Mission Accomplished, because the oppressors want to believe that they have fixed injustice.
But that doesn't mean that respectability has failed. It means the problem is difficult, and the cancer is deep.
Respectability is one of many tools. It's slow and comes at a great cost to human dignity. So it should always be weighed against other tools. But you haven't come close to proving that it doesn't work.
posted by politikitty at 12:07 PM on September 16, 2015 [1 favorite]
Meanwhile in the nineties, the average is 38. There the average stays close to 40, except a brief period where the Good Ol Boy Roundup reminded whites that racism still exists.
5.4 points is drastic change. We know that attitudes about race are very difficult to change.
I never said that this is going to be easy. People want to believe that they are good. Every step forward will be met with a feeling of Mission Accomplished, because the oppressors want to believe that they have fixed injustice.
But that doesn't mean that respectability has failed. It means the problem is difficult, and the cancer is deep.
Respectability is one of many tools. It's slow and comes at a great cost to human dignity. So it should always be weighed against other tools. But you haven't come close to proving that it doesn't work.
posted by politikitty at 12:07 PM on September 16, 2015 [1 favorite]
Good article! This section reminded of something I read this year:
It's a good book, and I highly recommend it.
posted by Rustic Etruscan at 7:53 PM on October 2, 2015
The effort to present the civil-rights movement in a fashion that would generate sympathy and admiration paid off. Segregationists attempted repeatedly to suppress the NAACP by making affiliation with the group a disqualification for public employment. They also tried to obtain NAACP membership lists so that members could be publicly identified and intimidated. Courts, however, thwarted those efforts with decisions that protected the NAACP, and thereby ratified Marshall’s long-term cultivation of its reputation.A few months ago, I read Black Struggle, Red Scare by Jeff Woods, which casts the efforts of Thurgood Marshall and the segregationists who opposed him in a different light. I wish I had recorded the specific passages, but the book says segregationists used anti-communist bodies to pursue the NAACP and other civil-rights organizations. They portrayed their fight against integration as a fight against Red subversion. The book goes on to say Marshall countered this ploy early on by removing as many communists and leftists from the NAACP as he could.
It's a good book, and I highly recommend it.
posted by Rustic Etruscan at 7:53 PM on October 2, 2015
I'm Fine How I Am, Chris Lebron -"So, am I the that’s-what’s-wrong-with-black-people pariah or the that-goes-to-show-you-what-a-lot-of-hard-work-can-get-you-racism-be-damned exemplar? Am I respectable, or not? Some black elites believe I should care what you think. I don’t."
posted by the man of twists and turns at 1:42 PM on October 3, 2015
posted by the man of twists and turns at 1:42 PM on October 3, 2015
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posted by NoxAeternum at 1:08 PM on September 15, 2015 [6 favorites]