Dear Retailers: Screw You
September 28, 2015 11:22 AM Subscribe
I sewed my own clothes for years. It's fun and I got pretty good at it. But it's not the same as being able to wander around the mall with your friends and actually buy things. Also, even with the long tail of the internet, it's a project to find the fabrics for a lot of the stuff that your smaller friends can buy ready made.
posted by elizilla at 11:43 AM on September 28, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by elizilla at 11:43 AM on September 28, 2015 [1 favorite]
Don'tcha love it when the first comment on a thread is a derail that questions the premise of TFA instead of engaging with it? [Written before the mods removed those comments.]
This woman's experience is similar to mine in that I've been on both sides of what is truly a grand shopping divide. Shopping isn't a frivolous exercise - it's intrinsically tied up into how we present ourselves in the physical world. And if the very experience of attempting to find things to clothe yourself in becomes an exercise in feeling walled off from "those who are normal", that just becomes another piece in the puzzle of marginalization of larger people in our society. Also, lots of plus size clothes are just kind of crappy clothes.
posted by matildaben at 11:45 AM on September 28, 2015 [9 favorites]
This woman's experience is similar to mine in that I've been on both sides of what is truly a grand shopping divide. Shopping isn't a frivolous exercise - it's intrinsically tied up into how we present ourselves in the physical world. And if the very experience of attempting to find things to clothe yourself in becomes an exercise in feeling walled off from "those who are normal", that just becomes another piece in the puzzle of marginalization of larger people in our society. Also, lots of plus size clothes are just kind of crappy clothes.
posted by matildaben at 11:45 AM on September 28, 2015 [9 favorites]
I can count the number of times I haven't cried in a fitting room on one hand and there are still a lot of fingers left over.
posted by Kitteh at 11:45 AM on September 28, 2015 [10 favorites]
posted by Kitteh at 11:45 AM on September 28, 2015 [10 favorites]
I've been teaching myself to sew. A simple pattern, with zero fabric problems, like trying to match patterns or grains or whatever, can take easily 4-10 hours, depending on how it's finished. Fabric for a project can run $25 - $125, plus trim, thread, etc.
That's on top of the 5 hours it took to make a dress dummy that matches my form, because none of the commercial ones are actually shaped like women, they are shaped like manikens that have never given birth. "Plus size" dress dummies are a size 8 dummy, puffed up...just like dress patterns are WWII size 8 patterns that are just expanded by X inches...which is why so many women get frustrated because the darts aren't in the right place, or the armhole is open to the waist, etc.
"Just make your own,"...not so simple, actually. And not cheap. Fabric is not inexpensive. And a single piece is an entire day's labor.
"Have someone make it for you" " Well, you need a couture seamstress, rather than an alteration seamstress or repair seamstress. Those are more difficult to find, as dress making and shirt making are difficult.
I've had bespoke clothes made. They were lovely, but they were more expensive than two car payments for an outfit...so....not a terribly practical way to dress myself.
Thus; I would prefer it if clothes for women of size were not ghettoized, thanks. My money spends just the same as a size 4.
(That said; when I am flush, I do the whole Nordstrom's thing; you wait in the dressing room with a bottle of sparkling water while they go and find things in your size and the colors you want. It's amazeballs, but I can't afford to dress in Eileen Fischer all the time either.)
So yeah, if a clothing manufacturer can make something in a size 2, they should be able to make in in a size 2X, and there's no reason to segregate the bigger sizes.
posted by SecretAgentSockpuppet at 11:50 AM on September 28, 2015 [30 favorites]
That's on top of the 5 hours it took to make a dress dummy that matches my form, because none of the commercial ones are actually shaped like women, they are shaped like manikens that have never given birth. "Plus size" dress dummies are a size 8 dummy, puffed up...just like dress patterns are WWII size 8 patterns that are just expanded by X inches...which is why so many women get frustrated because the darts aren't in the right place, or the armhole is open to the waist, etc.
"Just make your own,"...not so simple, actually. And not cheap. Fabric is not inexpensive. And a single piece is an entire day's labor.
"Have someone make it for you" " Well, you need a couture seamstress, rather than an alteration seamstress or repair seamstress. Those are more difficult to find, as dress making and shirt making are difficult.
I've had bespoke clothes made. They were lovely, but they were more expensive than two car payments for an outfit...so....not a terribly practical way to dress myself.
Thus; I would prefer it if clothes for women of size were not ghettoized, thanks. My money spends just the same as a size 4.
(That said; when I am flush, I do the whole Nordstrom's thing; you wait in the dressing room with a bottle of sparkling water while they go and find things in your size and the colors you want. It's amazeballs, but I can't afford to dress in Eileen Fischer all the time either.)
So yeah, if a clothing manufacturer can make something in a size 2, they should be able to make in in a size 2X, and there's no reason to segregate the bigger sizes.
posted by SecretAgentSockpuppet at 11:50 AM on September 28, 2015 [30 favorites]
Plus-size women have raised their voices, but that doesn't mean retailers are listening.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 11:55 AM on September 28, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 11:55 AM on September 28, 2015 [2 favorites]
I'm almost completely sized out of plus size clothing now (vaya con dios, about half of my boobs and a large chunk of my self-identity), and you know what? Plus size clothing sucks, and so does straight size clothing. There's a shitload more clothing that fits my body, but a lot of it is still cheap, poorly made, and prone to falling apart quickly.
I do still love ModCloth for carrying a whole lot of garments that are available from XXS to 4X, even if their quality is not the best... it's heartening to be wearing a plus size dress and run into a straight size person who's either wearing the same dress or who owns it and catches your eye and goes "i LOVE your dress, i have the same one!", and then you get to share that moment of mutual admiration.
I have a bunch of friends who sew, and I have a sewing machine, and I'd like to have the skills to just whip up a new outfit on a whim when I feel like it, but they've convinced me to wait until I'm more solidly in straight sizes to learn to sew. If sewing a straight size from a pattern sounds maddening, they said, imagine taking that pattern and having to basically redraft it to actually fit your measurements first. Ugh. I'm bad with spatial reasoning and nervous about my math skills, and my free time is at a serious premium what with the full time job and full time school. Sorry, I'm sure sewing is great and fun for a lot of people, but I don't even knit anymore due to lack of free time and I loved knitting, you know? I don't need another hobby on my hands that's really just a stealth way for me to feel bad about myself for not performing yet another aspect of femininity in a proper way. Some of us just aren't as good at the crafting as we want to be, you dig?
posted by palomar at 12:08 PM on September 28, 2015 [7 favorites]
I do still love ModCloth for carrying a whole lot of garments that are available from XXS to 4X, even if their quality is not the best... it's heartening to be wearing a plus size dress and run into a straight size person who's either wearing the same dress or who owns it and catches your eye and goes "i LOVE your dress, i have the same one!", and then you get to share that moment of mutual admiration.
I have a bunch of friends who sew, and I have a sewing machine, and I'd like to have the skills to just whip up a new outfit on a whim when I feel like it, but they've convinced me to wait until I'm more solidly in straight sizes to learn to sew. If sewing a straight size from a pattern sounds maddening, they said, imagine taking that pattern and having to basically redraft it to actually fit your measurements first. Ugh. I'm bad with spatial reasoning and nervous about my math skills, and my free time is at a serious premium what with the full time job and full time school. Sorry, I'm sure sewing is great and fun for a lot of people, but I don't even knit anymore due to lack of free time and I loved knitting, you know? I don't need another hobby on my hands that's really just a stealth way for me to feel bad about myself for not performing yet another aspect of femininity in a proper way. Some of us just aren't as good at the crafting as we want to be, you dig?
posted by palomar at 12:08 PM on September 28, 2015 [7 favorites]
Oh, damn, this resonates so so so so so hard. I just posted this a couple days ago elsewhere on the internet:
So, I wore leggings out in public tonight.
1) I apologize to anyone I've ever said "leggings are not pants" to; they are hella comfy.
2) I didn't feel fat. I didn't feel uncomfy. My ass looks amazing. I am so incredibly happy and confident in how I look lately.
3) I enjoyed working out yesterday and I'm looking forward to going to the gym tomorrow (we're trying Zumba!) and I'm overjoyed to realize that the gym is 24/7 and I can go swimming whenever I want (the campus pool hours are funky).
4) Funny how #2 had to happen for #3 to happen.
But man, it's been a process to get there, and part of it has been looking better and dressing better (fake the confidence until you make it, right?) which means a lot of time in dressing rooms feeling terrible or ordering and returning things (if stores are going to only stock plus sized stuff online, then hell yea, I'm going to order up to their shipping minimum and return half of it. Eff them.)
(I Goodwill a lot too, but Goodwill around here in big sizes is total hit and miss.)
posted by joycehealy at 12:09 PM on September 28, 2015 [7 favorites]
So, I wore leggings out in public tonight.
1) I apologize to anyone I've ever said "leggings are not pants" to; they are hella comfy.
2) I didn't feel fat. I didn't feel uncomfy. My ass looks amazing. I am so incredibly happy and confident in how I look lately.
3) I enjoyed working out yesterday and I'm looking forward to going to the gym tomorrow (we're trying Zumba!) and I'm overjoyed to realize that the gym is 24/7 and I can go swimming whenever I want (the campus pool hours are funky).
4) Funny how #2 had to happen for #3 to happen.
But man, it's been a process to get there, and part of it has been looking better and dressing better (fake the confidence until you make it, right?) which means a lot of time in dressing rooms feeling terrible or ordering and returning things (if stores are going to only stock plus sized stuff online, then hell yea, I'm going to order up to their shipping minimum and return half of it. Eff them.)
(I Goodwill a lot too, but Goodwill around here in big sizes is total hit and miss.)
posted by joycehealy at 12:09 PM on September 28, 2015 [7 favorites]
I am glad that she brings up that this is an issue for both genders. Because as a man who ranges both big and tall, finding clothes winds up being an exercise in frustration as well.
posted by NoxAeternum at 12:11 PM on September 28, 2015 [5 favorites]
posted by NoxAeternum at 12:11 PM on September 28, 2015 [5 favorites]
As a man I can't say I can fully relate, but I'm 6'7" and 300 pounds so finding clothes that fit is a major pain. Pants long enough for my legs are invariably made for guys close to half my weight, and any wide enough in the waist are too short. Few if any T-shirts are long enough for my torso. "Big and Tall" is most often "Big OR Tall" so if I want clothes that fit I have few choices other than mail order.
It sucks, and I can only imagine how much worse it is with society telling me I'm broken and unlovable too.
posted by Mr.Encyclopedia at 12:11 PM on September 28, 2015 [14 favorites]
It sucks, and I can only imagine how much worse it is with society telling me I'm broken and unlovable too.
posted by Mr.Encyclopedia at 12:11 PM on September 28, 2015 [14 favorites]
It's weird to me that, with fashion designers considering themselves capital-A Artists, you wouldn't get some that wanted to prove their skill by designing clothes that look great on larger or differently-shaped bodies.
posted by straight at 12:11 PM on September 28, 2015 [11 favorites]
posted by straight at 12:11 PM on September 28, 2015 [11 favorites]
That's actually crazy, that two thirds of women wear plus-sized clothing but giant department stores only carry a limited selection hidden in the basement! I realize that displays are part of branding but just going off the numbers, those places should be reversed! Well, obviously the proposed solution of all the women's clothing in the women's clothing section is better than banishing one group to the basement.
I hadn't thought about how much it sucks to lose shopping as a social activity, but that makes a lot of sense.
posted by carolr at 12:14 PM on September 28, 2015
I hadn't thought about how much it sucks to lose shopping as a social activity, but that makes a lot of sense.
posted by carolr at 12:14 PM on September 28, 2015
So yeah, if a clothing manufacturer can make something in a size 2, they should be able to make in in a size 2X, and there's no reason to segregate the bigger sizes.
This is why I and most of my fleshy friends buy a lot of our clothes online. Eshakti and ModCloth have been like rains to the desert for quirky fat girl fashion, especially for those of us who have effectively sized out of the vintage clothing market. My favorite feature of ModCloth is the photos of different customers wiith different body types wearing the same item - how normalizing is is to see the size 22 and the size 6 in the same row of photos, advertising the same dress.
posted by palindromic at 12:15 PM on September 28, 2015 [13 favorites]
This is why I and most of my fleshy friends buy a lot of our clothes online. Eshakti and ModCloth have been like rains to the desert for quirky fat girl fashion, especially for those of us who have effectively sized out of the vintage clothing market. My favorite feature of ModCloth is the photos of different customers wiith different body types wearing the same item - how normalizing is is to see the size 22 and the size 6 in the same row of photos, advertising the same dress.
posted by palindromic at 12:15 PM on September 28, 2015 [13 favorites]
One of the nice things about getting older is that my social life no longer includes nearly as much time spent at the mall. Nothing in daily life plants you so firmly in "sidekick" territory, as going to the mall and dressing your small cute friends like they were Barbies, while dreading the moment when they try to return the favor and discover that actually there's nothing for you there.
posted by elizilla at 12:16 PM on September 28, 2015 [7 favorites]
posted by elizilla at 12:16 PM on September 28, 2015 [7 favorites]
It's weird to me that, with fashion designers considering themselves capital-A Artists, you wouldn't get some that wanted to prove their skill by designing clothes that look great on larger or differently-shaped bodies.
I'd say it's part fear and part culture within the high fashion world.
posted by NoxAeternum at 12:17 PM on September 28, 2015
I'd say it's part fear and part culture within the high fashion world.
posted by NoxAeternum at 12:17 PM on September 28, 2015
Sounds like a lot of retailers are leaving money on the table for online etailers to snatch up.
Doubt they'll even realize their mistake until they read some press release or market analysis report that shows how much company X (or Amazon, if they catch on and brand/market properly) is earning off their foolishness. You would be amazed at how much money companies leave on the table by having close-minded executives. I would be amazed myself if I hadn't already had first-hand experience about how they ignore research materials they themselves commission. I have since come to terms with the customary incompetence of the managerial class.
Bad as Amazon et al. can be, at least the internet has given us the promised options for consumer goods.
posted by Strudel at 12:18 PM on September 28, 2015 [2 favorites]
Doubt they'll even realize their mistake until they read some press release or market analysis report that shows how much company X (or Amazon, if they catch on and brand/market properly) is earning off their foolishness. You would be amazed at how much money companies leave on the table by having close-minded executives. I would be amazed myself if I hadn't already had first-hand experience about how they ignore research materials they themselves commission. I have since come to terms with the customary incompetence of the managerial class.
Bad as Amazon et al. can be, at least the internet has given us the promised options for consumer goods.
posted by Strudel at 12:18 PM on September 28, 2015 [2 favorites]
I want to hug (if you're into that) everyone who's had to deal with this. hugs and more hugs and positive feels and even more hugs.
posted by Annika Cicada at 12:18 PM on September 28, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by Annika Cicada at 12:18 PM on September 28, 2015 [4 favorites]
OMG Witchen, I didn't even know that MyBodyGallery existed. That's an awesome thing.
posted by SecretAgentSockpuppet at 12:31 PM on September 28, 2015
posted by SecretAgentSockpuppet at 12:31 PM on September 28, 2015
Retailers really seem to believe that all they need to think about in terms of fit for plus size women is "does her body literally fit inside this item??" Everything is "baggy" or "flowy" or otherwise unstructured. Then it's covered with unnecessary decorative buttons or sparkly embroidery on the ass pockets or whatever else they can throw on it cheaply. But the idea of fit within most plus lines is nonexistent, and you're supposed to be grateful for anything at all, no matter how frumpy or unfinished it is.
posted by almostmanda at 12:32 PM on September 28, 2015 [18 favorites]
posted by almostmanda at 12:32 PM on September 28, 2015 [18 favorites]
As someone a little too old for ModCloth stuff, I've had good luck with Roamans for inexpensive, not horrible, plus size stuff. I mean, none of it is going to last for long, it's disposable ready to wear, but if you wait for the bogo sales or whatever, it's a great place to stock up on t-shirts and tunics and leggings and stuff. Some of my tshirts and leggings are years old. They've faded too much to wear in public pretty much after the 6th wash or so, but they're soft and comfy and still holding together. And their "crinkle" dresses are practically my summer uniform. They only design/sell plus size clothes, and the cut flatters my shape in most cases. I'm a short, short person though, like hobbit size, so your mileage may vary.
posted by SecretAgentSockpuppet at 12:43 PM on September 28, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by SecretAgentSockpuppet at 12:43 PM on September 28, 2015 [2 favorites]
Not to trivialize what the author is going through - and I do struggle with that, because I sympathize even if I can't entirely empathize - but if there's such a tremendous market opportunity, why isn't it being attacked by numerous retailers? Profit motive is incredibly powerful and it beggars belief to think that the market is being neglected out of spite for larger people.
The author dismisses stores like Lane Bryant and Ashley Stewart - are their clothes just unfashionable? Or is the stigma of going to an all-plus-size store too great?
posted by jgooden at 12:45 PM on September 28, 2015
The author dismisses stores like Lane Bryant and Ashley Stewart - are their clothes just unfashionable? Or is the stigma of going to an all-plus-size store too great?
posted by jgooden at 12:45 PM on September 28, 2015
Lane Bryant is expensive and cut for bigger butts/smaller chest, and those of us shaped differently have a hard time.
The last time I went there I paid 50.00 for a blouse of thin material that got a run in it when I put it on. It wasn't tight, just so crappily made it could not take being touched by other clothes.
I took it back, and I haven't shopped there since. I'm done with being overcharged for shitty clothes by them.
posted by emjaybee at 12:53 PM on September 28, 2015 [9 favorites]
The last time I went there I paid 50.00 for a blouse of thin material that got a run in it when I put it on. It wasn't tight, just so crappily made it could not take being touched by other clothes.
I took it back, and I haven't shopped there since. I'm done with being overcharged for shitty clothes by them.
posted by emjaybee at 12:53 PM on September 28, 2015 [9 favorites]
I don't know about anyone else, but I can't afford Lane Bryant on the regular and when I can, I'm not a big fan of animal prints or stripes or very bold colors or the usage of glitter thread. Maybe my LB sucks though.
Plus their bras don't go up to a GG cup so their occasional good sales are useless to me. Plus what is up with the weird color and print combos on some of those bras anyway? Ticky-tacky.
They do have decent panties, and sometimes I can find a nice enough little cardigan or shell on the clearance rack. But otherwise, they're expensive and either boring or tacky, and I feel I deserve better.
posted by angeline at 12:55 PM on September 28, 2015 [8 favorites]
Plus their bras don't go up to a GG cup so their occasional good sales are useless to me. Plus what is up with the weird color and print combos on some of those bras anyway? Ticky-tacky.
They do have decent panties, and sometimes I can find a nice enough little cardigan or shell on the clearance rack. But otherwise, they're expensive and either boring or tacky, and I feel I deserve better.
posted by angeline at 12:55 PM on September 28, 2015 [8 favorites]
I wonder how far away we are from it being economical to take someone's measurements with a laser scanner and automatically fabricate a piece from a general design to a bespoke fit. It can't be impossible if others are teaching computers to drive.
posted by indubitable at 12:56 PM on September 28, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by indubitable at 12:56 PM on September 28, 2015 [3 favorites]
I need a new winter coat, so I went looking for one yesterday. I fit in standard sizes (at the top end), and couldn't find a single one that zipped over my chest. I don't know why we're doing slim fit winter parkas in Canada, but I hated everyone and it ruined my day.
posted by jeather at 12:57 PM on September 28, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by jeather at 12:57 PM on September 28, 2015 [4 favorites]
For years and years I thought I had no style. But then I realized the reason for my frumpiness--that it was so hard for me to find clothes that fit at the mall stores that I would buy almost anything as long as it fit me. Flattering? Who cares, as long as I could squeeze myself into it.
Thank God for Modcloth and stores like J Crew who are starting to design lines that go up to size 16/18 (at least online! but maybe in brick and mortar stores eventually). Baby steps.
posted by zoetrope at 12:59 PM on September 28, 2015 [2 favorites]
Thank God for Modcloth and stores like J Crew who are starting to design lines that go up to size 16/18 (at least online! but maybe in brick and mortar stores eventually). Baby steps.
posted by zoetrope at 12:59 PM on September 28, 2015 [2 favorites]
jgooden, the author is addressing the fact that there are plus size stores or basement nooks (which a lot of the time are incredibly unfashionable and pricey for cheap feeling clothing) rather than stores just carrying a broader range of sizes in the same styles of clothing. There are a lot of women's clothing stores and many department stores have huge sections (floors!) devoted to women's clothing, but that clothing usually only goes up to XL (if you're lucky!). That XL can also vary between stores and brands and sometimes even have fluctuations within the same article of clothing-- I'm looking at you, Old Navy.
In recent years, I've managed to find things online, but it still stinks to not be able to swoop into big sales and come out with lots of new outfits for crazy cheap. Anytime that happens in stores for plus sizes, you're basically leaving with ponchos and gem sweaters and kimono sleeves.
I think anyone wanting to dress on the more "male" side is worse off. At least there's ModCloth and the like for dresses and skirts and girly things, while for guys it's just hideous Hawaiian shirts, ill fitting cargo pants, and dress shirts that will never fit quite right.
posted by thefang at 1:00 PM on September 28, 2015 [4 favorites]
In recent years, I've managed to find things online, but it still stinks to not be able to swoop into big sales and come out with lots of new outfits for crazy cheap. Anytime that happens in stores for plus sizes, you're basically leaving with ponchos and gem sweaters and kimono sleeves.
I think anyone wanting to dress on the more "male" side is worse off. At least there's ModCloth and the like for dresses and skirts and girly things, while for guys it's just hideous Hawaiian shirts, ill fitting cargo pants, and dress shirts that will never fit quite right.
posted by thefang at 1:00 PM on September 28, 2015 [4 favorites]
The author dismisses stores like Lane Bryant and Ashley Stewart - are their clothes just unfashionable?
I don't know Ashley Stewart from Adam's housecat, but I can answer for Lane Bryant: Yes. Yes, their clothes are unfashionable. They have notorious problems with their fit model, most plus size women aren't shaped like extremely short-torsoed rectangles but you wouldn't know that from picking up a t-shirt in a Lane Bryant store. I've never been able to shop there because their t-shirts end 4 inches above the waistband of my jeans and are boxy as all hell on me. And then there's their bras, which... oh boy, no. Just no.
Then there's the issue of most of their non-casual clothing looking like a Bedazzler factory exploded all over some polyester rags... I can't go into the office in an off-the-shoulder flowy chiffon poncho with a handkerchief hem and rhinestones all over it. I have too much self-respect.
posted by palomar at 1:01 PM on September 28, 2015 [21 favorites]
I don't know Ashley Stewart from Adam's housecat, but I can answer for Lane Bryant: Yes. Yes, their clothes are unfashionable. They have notorious problems with their fit model, most plus size women aren't shaped like extremely short-torsoed rectangles but you wouldn't know that from picking up a t-shirt in a Lane Bryant store. I've never been able to shop there because their t-shirts end 4 inches above the waistband of my jeans and are boxy as all hell on me. And then there's their bras, which... oh boy, no. Just no.
Then there's the issue of most of their non-casual clothing looking like a Bedazzler factory exploded all over some polyester rags... I can't go into the office in an off-the-shoulder flowy chiffon poncho with a handkerchief hem and rhinestones all over it. I have too much self-respect.
posted by palomar at 1:01 PM on September 28, 2015 [21 favorites]
Lane Bryant used to carry tall sizes, but they closed that part of their business some time around 1983. I wore the items from that clearance sale, to ragged shreds. They haven't had anything for me since then.
posted by elizilla at 1:17 PM on September 28, 2015
posted by elizilla at 1:17 PM on September 28, 2015
I am slowly getting to that part of my life where I can buy myself a few nice pieces of clothing that fit me and I swear to God, I am never getting back in a fitting room again.
And I too now wear leggings proudly because my god my ass looks fantastic in them.
posted by Kitteh at 1:32 PM on September 28, 2015 [2 favorites]
And I too now wear leggings proudly because my god my ass looks fantastic in them.
posted by Kitteh at 1:32 PM on September 28, 2015 [2 favorites]
The anecdote from the end of the article palomar linked, about the salesperson trying to convince the author to try on a pair of jeans, conveniently sized 1-6:
In stark contrast, you can walk into a Starbucks anywhere, order a "medium", and they won't blink an eye, they'll just hand you a cup of coffee.
posted by Dashy at 1:34 PM on September 28, 2015 [28 favorites]
"Which of these is a size 18?” I asked the salesperson. She looked like I had taken a shit on the floor of the store.This is really revealing about the other-ing that even Lane Bryant does to their target consumers.
“We don’t have size 18. We have sizes 1-6.”
“Yes. I see that you’ve changed your sizing in a confusing way. Which of these new strange sizes is comparable to a size 18?”
“We have sizes 1-6. Also we have colored shapes that coordinate to the fit. Isn’t that innovative? No other store is doing this.”
“Yes. I would imagine no other store is doing this, as it makes it utterly impossible to shop and I’m sure is losing you business. So…in order to find out what size I am, I would have to…”
“Try on some of our new jeans!”
“Do you have a hint as to which size MIGHT be a size 18? I see you’re not allowed to tell me. You’ve had a long swallow of the new-size Koolaid. Maybe you could kind of nod when I get close to the right pair? Or wink? Blink, maybe? No? Great. Thank you. You’ve been very helpful.”
In stark contrast, you can walk into a Starbucks anywhere, order a "medium", and they won't blink an eye, they'll just hand you a cup of coffee.
posted by Dashy at 1:34 PM on September 28, 2015 [28 favorites]
I wonder how far away we are from it being economical to take someone's measurements with a laser scanner and automatically fabricate a piece from a general design to a bespoke fit.
This is called Made to Measure (MTM) and it's a much harder nut to crack than people realize -- see for example this discussion on Fashion Incubator.
I would also point out that clothing still isn't "fabricated" in any sort of automated way -- it's cut (whether with a computer-guided cutting machine or by hand) and then stitched. There is no giant sewing factory; garment factory workers are using those sewing and serging and coverstitch machines.
That's actually crazy, that two thirds of women wear plus-sized clothing but giant department stores only carry a limited selection hidden in the basement! I realize that displays are part of branding but just going off the numbers, those places should be reversed!
SHOULD be. But. I suspect more garments actually sell in straight sizes. How is that possible, if there are more plus-sized consumers? Easy -- plus-sized consumers are buying fewer items per person, likely because there are so few good clothing options out there and as a result, it's not much fun to shop recreationally if you're plus-sized (as people have pointed out in this thread).
There's obviously a market out there for non-shitty plus-sized clothing, but nobody seems to be cracking it, except maybe Target although I guess the jury's still out on them.
posted by pie ninja at 1:41 PM on September 28, 2015 [5 favorites]
This is called Made to Measure (MTM) and it's a much harder nut to crack than people realize -- see for example this discussion on Fashion Incubator.
I would also point out that clothing still isn't "fabricated" in any sort of automated way -- it's cut (whether with a computer-guided cutting machine or by hand) and then stitched. There is no giant sewing factory; garment factory workers are using those sewing and serging and coverstitch machines.
That's actually crazy, that two thirds of women wear plus-sized clothing but giant department stores only carry a limited selection hidden in the basement! I realize that displays are part of branding but just going off the numbers, those places should be reversed!
SHOULD be. But. I suspect more garments actually sell in straight sizes. How is that possible, if there are more plus-sized consumers? Easy -- plus-sized consumers are buying fewer items per person, likely because there are so few good clothing options out there and as a result, it's not much fun to shop recreationally if you're plus-sized (as people have pointed out in this thread).
There's obviously a market out there for non-shitty plus-sized clothing, but nobody seems to be cracking it, except maybe Target although I guess the jury's still out on them.
posted by pie ninja at 1:41 PM on September 28, 2015 [5 favorites]
Lane Bryant's clothing is terrible, and now out of my price range. Ashley Stewart is...no. And I can't shop online without being prepared to send half of my items back because the number on the label isn't a real predictor of whether it will fit me properly.
As my PCOS went untreated (thanks, doctors who fatshamed me all the way to the pre-diabetic line!), I could only watch with horror as I sized out of a bunch of stores: J. Crew, New York and Company, etc. If I find anything at H+M that fits me, it's an oversize item or one of their casual tops/bottoms. As a result, all I actually feel good in anymore is some combination of huge sweaters/leggings/boots, or tunics/leggings. This has and will create problems for me: I will have to put on Big Kid Clothing when I resume working, because nothing currently in my wardrobe will pass as business casual.
But being in a dressing room also makes me shed huge ugly tears, so often that I usually just plan shopping trips during the evening and go straight to a bar afterwards. But the time wasted seems a lot less (albeit more painful) than making my own clothing. Which, if I controlled for local costs, is prohibitively expensive.
And I feel like the concerns raised in the time confetti thread could be folded into this one - who truly has the money or time to create their wardrobe from scratch?
posted by Ashen at 1:47 PM on September 28, 2015 [6 favorites]
As my PCOS went untreated (thanks, doctors who fatshamed me all the way to the pre-diabetic line!), I could only watch with horror as I sized out of a bunch of stores: J. Crew, New York and Company, etc. If I find anything at H+M that fits me, it's an oversize item or one of their casual tops/bottoms. As a result, all I actually feel good in anymore is some combination of huge sweaters/leggings/boots, or tunics/leggings. This has and will create problems for me: I will have to put on Big Kid Clothing when I resume working, because nothing currently in my wardrobe will pass as business casual.
But being in a dressing room also makes me shed huge ugly tears, so often that I usually just plan shopping trips during the evening and go straight to a bar afterwards. But the time wasted seems a lot less (albeit more painful) than making my own clothing. Which, if I controlled for local costs, is prohibitively expensive.
And I feel like the concerns raised in the time confetti thread could be folded into this one - who truly has the money or time to create their wardrobe from scratch?
posted by Ashen at 1:47 PM on September 28, 2015 [6 favorites]
The author dismisses stores like Lane Bryant and Ashley Stewart - are their clothes just unfashionable? Or is the stigma of going to an all-plus-size store too great?
She doesn't dismiss them, she omits them entirely. Why, you ask?
Because I miss the social aspect of shopping with my friends. I miss not having to say, “Oh, I’ll meet you somewhere else — this store doesn’t have my size.”
posted by feral_goldfish at 1:49 PM on September 28, 2015 [1 favorite]
She doesn't dismiss them, she omits them entirely. Why, you ask?
Because I miss the social aspect of shopping with my friends. I miss not having to say, “Oh, I’ll meet you somewhere else — this store doesn’t have my size.”
posted by feral_goldfish at 1:49 PM on September 28, 2015 [1 favorite]
I appreciate Anthropologie. Their sizing has always been a little generous to start with (I'm on the cusp of straight sizes at a 12 and very rarely have problems being sized out), but more and more often they are carrying sizes up to a 16, I've noticed.
posted by Windigo at 1:52 PM on September 28, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by Windigo at 1:52 PM on September 28, 2015 [2 favorites]
conveniently sized 1-6
Taking a bad system and making it worse. Women's "sizes" are already bad enough, you can't _really_ say anyone wears size X since there is so much variance. As a man it's usually so much easier, they just use actual measurements because they aren't invested in some sort of psychological game playing with us.
My wife has the opposite problem of this (even the smallest sizes can be too big). Which leads to a similarly annoying "solution" - "Just shop in the children's department!". I mean, its true, but its not like they have the same clothes there.
Of course, the larger size problem is a much bigger one, since as the article points out it affects more or less the majority of women in the US... (tough to get an exact number I think because after all womens "sizes" are basically made up).
But it would be at least a little easier for everyone if they just used measurements, rather than the guess-and-check system in place in what seems to be almost every womens clothing store/department.
posted by thefoxgod at 1:53 PM on September 28, 2015
Taking a bad system and making it worse. Women's "sizes" are already bad enough, you can't _really_ say anyone wears size X since there is so much variance. As a man it's usually so much easier, they just use actual measurements because they aren't invested in some sort of psychological game playing with us.
My wife has the opposite problem of this (even the smallest sizes can be too big). Which leads to a similarly annoying "solution" - "Just shop in the children's department!". I mean, its true, but its not like they have the same clothes there.
Of course, the larger size problem is a much bigger one, since as the article points out it affects more or less the majority of women in the US... (tough to get an exact number I think because after all womens "sizes" are basically made up).
But it would be at least a little easier for everyone if they just used measurements, rather than the guess-and-check system in place in what seems to be almost every womens clothing store/department.
posted by thefoxgod at 1:53 PM on September 28, 2015
There is a personal stylist in my town and I sort of want to treat myself for my birthday this year to talking about finding a wardrobe for a late 30s lady who has specific likes in clothing and have her take me around to shops, but then I think of my body and her possible reaction and I just wilt.
posted by Kitteh at 1:55 PM on September 28, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by Kitteh at 1:55 PM on September 28, 2015 [1 favorite]
As someone who is between a size 40 and 42 waist the most frustrating thing is how bland the colours are--those chinos which are bubble gum pink, too small, that bright yellowish tan buckskin jacket too small, the electric blue suit tiny, the pants with the flying ducks, also too small--the only t shirts they have are like black, and the only jeans they have are like darkish blue.
posted by PinkMoose at 2:00 PM on September 28, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by PinkMoose at 2:00 PM on September 28, 2015 [1 favorite]
pie ninja, that is fascinating, thanks for the link.
posted by indubitable at 2:01 PM on September 28, 2015
posted by indubitable at 2:01 PM on September 28, 2015
I wonder how far away we are from it being economical to take someone's measurements with a laser scanner and automatically fabricate a piece from a general design to a bespoke fit. It can't be impossible if others are teaching computers to drive.
I dream about this. Especially once someone (here?) explained how all famous people have their clothes, even their t-shirts, tailored, which is part of the reason they look so amazing even in regular clothes. Off-the-rack only sort of fits people (skinny ones too) and some sort of computerized made-to-order clothes would make everyone look a lot more put together, regardless of body type.
I'll probably die in my frumpy, ill-fitting off-the-rack crap before it exists, but maybe someday my descendants will need footnotes to understand comic strips of women crying in something called a "changing room."
posted by emjaybee at 2:02 PM on September 28, 2015 [2 favorites]
I dream about this. Especially once someone (here?) explained how all famous people have their clothes, even their t-shirts, tailored, which is part of the reason they look so amazing even in regular clothes. Off-the-rack only sort of fits people (skinny ones too) and some sort of computerized made-to-order clothes would make everyone look a lot more put together, regardless of body type.
I'll probably die in my frumpy, ill-fitting off-the-rack crap before it exists, but maybe someday my descendants will need footnotes to understand comic strips of women crying in something called a "changing room."
posted by emjaybee at 2:02 PM on September 28, 2015 [2 favorites]
indubitable: "I wonder how far away we are from it being economical to take someone's measurements with a laser scanner and automatically fabricate a piece from a general design to a bespoke fit. "
This is basically the eShakti model, only they have you measure yourself and seamstresses in India whip up the dress. I assume the adjusting of the pattern is done automatically by computer, and the fabric pieces cut by laser (or whatever they use these days to cut fabric automatically).
(I will honestly probably never buy an off-the-rack dress again now that I've discovered eShakti. Things fit my boobs AND my hips! It's amazeballs!)
Jessica Simpson has been getting a lot of press for insisting her line (at Macy's, Dillard's, etc.) go into the plus sizes; she refused to license an activewear line until she found a designer who would design activewear in plus sizes as well as standard, and that has just happened this year. I am relatively indifferent to Jessica Simpson in general but that made me admire her and want to make sure to check out her clothing line next time I'm shopping. I saw her giving an interview and she said basically "Look, women's bodies change sizes, especially during the child-bearing years, and it's stupid to ignore such a huge part of the market or to make women feel bad about the fact that our bodies change and we're not always the same sizes."
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 2:16 PM on September 28, 2015 [16 favorites]
This is basically the eShakti model, only they have you measure yourself and seamstresses in India whip up the dress. I assume the adjusting of the pattern is done automatically by computer, and the fabric pieces cut by laser (or whatever they use these days to cut fabric automatically).
(I will honestly probably never buy an off-the-rack dress again now that I've discovered eShakti. Things fit my boobs AND my hips! It's amazeballs!)
Jessica Simpson has been getting a lot of press for insisting her line (at Macy's, Dillard's, etc.) go into the plus sizes; she refused to license an activewear line until she found a designer who would design activewear in plus sizes as well as standard, and that has just happened this year. I am relatively indifferent to Jessica Simpson in general but that made me admire her and want to make sure to check out her clothing line next time I'm shopping. I saw her giving an interview and she said basically "Look, women's bodies change sizes, especially during the child-bearing years, and it's stupid to ignore such a huge part of the market or to make women feel bad about the fact that our bodies change and we're not always the same sizes."
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 2:16 PM on September 28, 2015 [16 favorites]
I've seen more than one ghost website from techie women who decided to work on MTM. A year or two of planning the work, a conference presentation for a specialized industry, and silence. I've been hoping it was because their work had gone private and was soon going to revolutionize clothing. So far, no.
Surprisingly difficult math problems: adding seam allowances to pattern pieces; calculating how bias will work; piece layout on the fabric. Some of these are hard as pure math, and some because cloth is neither isotropic nor scale-free.
I wouldn't be surprised if either ModCloth or eShakti started with one of these researchers. Note that both of them are best with a few basic patterns that resize well (or maybe they've accumulated an expert library, as Fashion -Incubator suggests). EShakti also uses a lot of poplin and chambray which are relatively workable for the seamstress but look old-fashioned, and need piping and ironing, IME.
Also, we're used to astoundingly cheap clothes, historically speaking. I'm not surprised the market serves only a fraction of its customers well, because it's a (hypertrophied) fraction of the massive complex of skills we used to use.
posted by clew at 2:17 PM on September 28, 2015 [4 favorites]
Surprisingly difficult math problems: adding seam allowances to pattern pieces; calculating how bias will work; piece layout on the fabric. Some of these are hard as pure math, and some because cloth is neither isotropic nor scale-free.
I wouldn't be surprised if either ModCloth or eShakti started with one of these researchers. Note that both of them are best with a few basic patterns that resize well (or maybe they've accumulated an expert library, as Fashion -Incubator suggests). EShakti also uses a lot of poplin and chambray which are relatively workable for the seamstress but look old-fashioned, and need piping and ironing, IME.
Also, we're used to astoundingly cheap clothes, historically speaking. I'm not surprised the market serves only a fraction of its customers well, because it's a (hypertrophied) fraction of the massive complex of skills we used to use.
posted by clew at 2:17 PM on September 28, 2015 [4 favorites]
A second for Anthropologie. Some of my very favorite things come from there.
Shopko for underwear, and long leggings.
There is a small boutique in my town selling vintage sundresses and dresses up to 4x. They do an online business. I think it is called Sweet Indulgences. Things are getting better for regular sized clothes, I mean what reality sized people want.
posted by Oyéah at 2:20 PM on September 28, 2015 [2 favorites]
Shopko for underwear, and long leggings.
There is a small boutique in my town selling vintage sundresses and dresses up to 4x. They do an online business. I think it is called Sweet Indulgences. Things are getting better for regular sized clothes, I mean what reality sized people want.
posted by Oyéah at 2:20 PM on September 28, 2015 [2 favorites]
Profit motive is incredibly powerful and it beggars belief to think that the market is being neglected out of spite for larger people.
Maybe they are worried that the fat dollar will chase away the thin dollar? If you make your store too appealing to women size 12 or greater, then they will lose their cachet with the young, thin and fashionable, who are seen as being the more reliable fashion dollar.
Maybe their shitty options sell poorly, and they make decisions about expanding size options based on the poor sales of their loudly patterned drapery-based outfits? They don't want to be stuck with all these size 24 versions of regular dresses, and their data clearly show that fat women don't buy from them (but they don't know it's because their plus-size fare is insultingly ugly and poorly structured).
Maybe larger women don't have access to the necessary decision-making power in most clothing companies? Maybe they think fat women don't care about their appearance enough to buy fashionable clothing?
The market is not always rational or efficient, but it doesn't have to be failing out of spite. It's almost always safer to keep doing things the way they've always been done. If some store just started offering up to size 24 or 30 or whatever for most of their women's apparel, and it didn't succeed for whatever reason, the person/s who suggested the change is more likely to be shit-canned than if they had just stayed the course, even when the course is known to be leaving money on the table.
posted by palindromic at 2:24 PM on September 28, 2015 [3 favorites]
Maybe they are worried that the fat dollar will chase away the thin dollar? If you make your store too appealing to women size 12 or greater, then they will lose their cachet with the young, thin and fashionable, who are seen as being the more reliable fashion dollar.
Maybe their shitty options sell poorly, and they make decisions about expanding size options based on the poor sales of their loudly patterned drapery-based outfits? They don't want to be stuck with all these size 24 versions of regular dresses, and their data clearly show that fat women don't buy from them (but they don't know it's because their plus-size fare is insultingly ugly and poorly structured).
Maybe larger women don't have access to the necessary decision-making power in most clothing companies? Maybe they think fat women don't care about their appearance enough to buy fashionable clothing?
The market is not always rational or efficient, but it doesn't have to be failing out of spite. It's almost always safer to keep doing things the way they've always been done. If some store just started offering up to size 24 or 30 or whatever for most of their women's apparel, and it didn't succeed for whatever reason, the person/s who suggested the change is more likely to be shit-canned than if they had just stayed the course, even when the course is known to be leaving money on the table.
posted by palindromic at 2:24 PM on September 28, 2015 [3 favorites]
It's weird to me that, with fashion designers considering themselves capital-A Artists, you wouldn't get some that wanted to prove their skill by designing clothes that look great on larger or differently-shaped bodies.
Vivienne Westwood. Yes, the proto-punk couturier of 1974, who has been designing clothes of great brilliance ever since. (Her runway shows always horrifying to current fashion, yet a couple years later they're right there behind her, while she's moved on to something else.) Buxom models, baggy exotica of history plus not giving a fuck. Genius at ransacking the past, true artisan of curves. Infamous for constructing clothes that you can't try on without falling in love with how well they understand your own form.
posted by feral_goldfish at 2:27 PM on September 28, 2015 [3 favorites]
Vivienne Westwood. Yes, the proto-punk couturier of 1974, who has been designing clothes of great brilliance ever since. (Her runway shows always horrifying to current fashion, yet a couple years later they're right there behind her, while she's moved on to something else.) Buxom models, baggy exotica of history plus not giving a fuck. Genius at ransacking the past, true artisan of curves. Infamous for constructing clothes that you can't try on without falling in love with how well they understand your own form.
posted by feral_goldfish at 2:27 PM on September 28, 2015 [3 favorites]
There are plenty of plus size clothes out there if your style is that of a rockabilly roller girl or my grandmother. I was extremely sad when I sized out of the Gap's sizes. There's something to be said for normcore: slim-but-not-skinny cuts, androgynous styles, neutral colors, and natural fibers. I'm tired of compulsory fat girl dresses, god-awful polyester drapey tops and twee cherry prints. And for the record: just because my boobs are fat too does not mean I would like to put them on display.
posted by theraflu at 2:36 PM on September 28, 2015 [7 favorites]
posted by theraflu at 2:36 PM on September 28, 2015 [7 favorites]
I have to give props to Ann Taylor - they carry sizes 00 through 18, and have three different models of leg fit for most of their pants. This is my central issue - I'm 12-14ish? but have strong thighs, so especially in the days of "slim" pants, there are entire stores and brands I can't consider. Ann Taylor is so reliable for me that they comprise half of my pants.
posted by Dashy at 2:41 PM on September 28, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by Dashy at 2:41 PM on September 28, 2015 [2 favorites]
Ann Taylor - they carry sizes 00 through 18
Or larger, in translation.
posted by feral_goldfish at 4:26 PM on September 28, 2015
Or larger, in translation.
posted by feral_goldfish at 4:26 PM on September 28, 2015
OH GOD SO MUCH ALL OF THIS.
After years of being poor and underpaid I finally have a job where I can buy clothes! That fit! And aren't hideous! and it is AMAZING. Thank you Modcloth and Eshakti and ESPECIALLY Ureshii (custom clothing to measurements!!) for making me look awesome. I've discovered pencil skirts this year, and am almost to the point of not caring if anyone notices my VBL (visible belly line) because it's pretty obvious I'm pretty round.
One of the best things I've done for myself in the last few years is banish the phrase "Does this make me look fat?" because IT DOES BECAUSE I AM FAT. That's ok. I'm ok with it. MY LIFE IS PRETTY AWESOME.
But UGH Old Navy with your terrible terrible sizing (I wear xxl straight size leggings, and the plus size 2x leggings are too damn short or baggy or tight half the time. Who knows!). I love Torrid but they are so expensive for really cheaply made clothing. The only thing Lane Bryant has that I'll wear is their underwear. Sometimes Kohls or TJ Maxx or JC Penney or Sears will have something not terrible, but those times are RARE and I don't have a million hours to pour through hideous polyester racks.
And all because I'm fat doesn't mean that I only want to wear fucking v-neck t-shirts.
I could rant about this ALL YEAR. And if anyone needs shopping tips, memail me. I've gotten really really good at finding not hideous things. (and I've also come to grips with the fact that I enjoy shopping, but that's another FPP altogether).
posted by bibliogrrl at 4:26 PM on September 28, 2015 [16 favorites]
After years of being poor and underpaid I finally have a job where I can buy clothes! That fit! And aren't hideous! and it is AMAZING. Thank you Modcloth and Eshakti and ESPECIALLY Ureshii (custom clothing to measurements!!) for making me look awesome. I've discovered pencil skirts this year, and am almost to the point of not caring if anyone notices my VBL (visible belly line) because it's pretty obvious I'm pretty round.
One of the best things I've done for myself in the last few years is banish the phrase "Does this make me look fat?" because IT DOES BECAUSE I AM FAT. That's ok. I'm ok with it. MY LIFE IS PRETTY AWESOME.
But UGH Old Navy with your terrible terrible sizing (I wear xxl straight size leggings, and the plus size 2x leggings are too damn short or baggy or tight half the time. Who knows!). I love Torrid but they are so expensive for really cheaply made clothing. The only thing Lane Bryant has that I'll wear is their underwear. Sometimes Kohls or TJ Maxx or JC Penney or Sears will have something not terrible, but those times are RARE and I don't have a million hours to pour through hideous polyester racks.
And all because I'm fat doesn't mean that I only want to wear fucking v-neck t-shirts.
I could rant about this ALL YEAR. And if anyone needs shopping tips, memail me. I've gotten really really good at finding not hideous things. (and I've also come to grips with the fact that I enjoy shopping, but that's another FPP altogether).
posted by bibliogrrl at 4:26 PM on September 28, 2015 [16 favorites]
Oh god, Old Navy's sizing... it infuriates me that the 1X in the Plus line is smaller than the XXL in the straight sizes.
posted by palomar at 4:38 PM on September 28, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by palomar at 4:38 PM on September 28, 2015 [3 favorites]
three different models of leg fit
Nice. Tying together points from dashy and palindromic, the variance in fit goes up a lot as sizes go up - the more flesh you have, the more ways there are to distribute it over your skeleton. So a company deciding to make larger sizes has to decide which ones and figure out how to communicate the choice.
I daydream that exercise wear/Star Trek pajamas will be accepted citizen wear and we might throw something over it to amuse and delight: chiton, smock, housedress, kaftan, twirly skirt, lab coat, photographer's vest.
posted by clew at 4:42 PM on September 28, 2015 [3 favorites]
Nice. Tying together points from dashy and palindromic, the variance in fit goes up a lot as sizes go up - the more flesh you have, the more ways there are to distribute it over your skeleton. So a company deciding to make larger sizes has to decide which ones and figure out how to communicate the choice.
I daydream that exercise wear/Star Trek pajamas will be accepted citizen wear and we might throw something over it to amuse and delight: chiton, smock, housedress, kaftan, twirly skirt, lab coat, photographer's vest.
posted by clew at 4:42 PM on September 28, 2015 [3 favorites]
Ugh, don't even get me started on Lane Bryant's aesthetic, which often seems to just default to "deranged circus performer."
I have a hellacious time finding clothes and have pretty much abandoned brick-and-mortar stores. I'm 30-something and need to dress fairly conservatively for my job. That still doesn't mean I'm ready for the older-lady vibe of the clothes of the Talbot's-range of stores. I would kill for J. Crew or Ann Taylor to actually cater to the plus size professional market. I have a sizeable amount of cash I would be happy to throw at them.
And again, in the real stores the shaming/inequity continues: I buy a bunch of my work basics at Land's End, which is frumpy-adjacent, to my tastes, but the best I can find. I return stuff at my local Land's End section of Sears. This local one has 4 huge sections with a range of pretty much everything in the LE catalogue for straight-size women. The plus section? Literally hidden in the corner, and it's about three racks and two shelves. I have never, in 4 years, found something that I wanted in the store (and I'm someone who'll do big online orders probably 3-4 times a year). What the hell, Land's End/Sears? Given their financial plights you'd think they'd want more foot traffic business...
posted by TwoStride at 5:02 PM on September 28, 2015 [5 favorites]
I have a hellacious time finding clothes and have pretty much abandoned brick-and-mortar stores. I'm 30-something and need to dress fairly conservatively for my job. That still doesn't mean I'm ready for the older-lady vibe of the clothes of the Talbot's-range of stores. I would kill for J. Crew or Ann Taylor to actually cater to the plus size professional market. I have a sizeable amount of cash I would be happy to throw at them.
And again, in the real stores the shaming/inequity continues: I buy a bunch of my work basics at Land's End, which is frumpy-adjacent, to my tastes, but the best I can find. I return stuff at my local Land's End section of Sears. This local one has 4 huge sections with a range of pretty much everything in the LE catalogue for straight-size women. The plus section? Literally hidden in the corner, and it's about three racks and two shelves. I have never, in 4 years, found something that I wanted in the store (and I'm someone who'll do big online orders probably 3-4 times a year). What the hell, Land's End/Sears? Given their financial plights you'd think they'd want more foot traffic business...
posted by TwoStride at 5:02 PM on September 28, 2015 [5 favorites]
Also: I've been that person at Ann Taylor. While my friends are trying on all manner of cute blazers and work-appropriate pants, I buy... sunglasses. And once, a bracelet.
posted by TwoStride at 5:05 PM on September 28, 2015
posted by TwoStride at 5:05 PM on September 28, 2015
It's weird to me that, with fashion designers considering themselves capital-A Artists, you wouldn't get some that wanted to prove their skill by designing clothes that look great on larger or differently-shaped bodies.
It's a bit odd, but it doesn't seem entirely weird to me. Capital-A Artists happily design custom outfits for the (plus-sized) stars, but that same capital-A Artist obsession with a garment line being as perfect as possible and made with only the best (often unusual) materials and workmanship means the closest thing regular people to get to clothing lines from capital-A Artist designers is the section of the Nordstroms where each designer garment costs a month's wages (for many people). My hunch is that a multi-thousand-dollar outfit becomes a much harder sell in a society that tells people they're not going to be beautiful regardless of spending that money, because size.
WRT the brand-name designer lines and stores, I'm pretty ignorant but I assume they operate less like capital-A Artist and more like industrial design and marketing houses (while trying to project a facade of capital-A Artist :) )
(And designers fresh out of college will mostly be trying to break into the glamour side of thing. AT least that's what it's like in my (unrelated) field.)
posted by anonymisc at 5:27 PM on September 28, 2015
It's a bit odd, but it doesn't seem entirely weird to me. Capital-A Artists happily design custom outfits for the (plus-sized) stars, but that same capital-A Artist obsession with a garment line being as perfect as possible and made with only the best (often unusual) materials and workmanship means the closest thing regular people to get to clothing lines from capital-A Artist designers is the section of the Nordstroms where each designer garment costs a month's wages (for many people). My hunch is that a multi-thousand-dollar outfit becomes a much harder sell in a society that tells people they're not going to be beautiful regardless of spending that money, because size.
WRT the brand-name designer lines and stores, I'm pretty ignorant but I assume they operate less like capital-A Artist and more like industrial design and marketing houses (while trying to project a facade of capital-A Artist :) )
(And designers fresh out of college will mostly be trying to break into the glamour side of thing. AT least that's what it's like in my (unrelated) field.)
posted by anonymisc at 5:27 PM on September 28, 2015
Thank God for Modcloth and stores like J Crew who are starting to design lines that go up to size 16/18 (at least online! but maybe in brick and mortar stores eventually). Baby steps.
Ugh. Last winter I put my coat on and it wouldn't button over my chest. I went to JCrew to buy a new one (lots in the catalog I liked!) and they didn't have larger than a size 10 in the store. The sales people not only told me that I needed to buy a coat before it got cold, but that if I wanted to try on a larger coat I should ship multiple sizes to my house, try them on, and return the ones that don't work. I managed to get a few, but hell most people can't spend $700 on coats, just to try them on.
posted by Bunglegirl at 5:56 PM on September 28, 2015 [2 favorites]
Ugh. Last winter I put my coat on and it wouldn't button over my chest. I went to JCrew to buy a new one (lots in the catalog I liked!) and they didn't have larger than a size 10 in the store. The sales people not only told me that I needed to buy a coat before it got cold, but that if I wanted to try on a larger coat I should ship multiple sizes to my house, try them on, and return the ones that don't work. I managed to get a few, but hell most people can't spend $700 on coats, just to try them on.
posted by Bunglegirl at 5:56 PM on September 28, 2015 [2 favorites]
Maybe they are worried that the fat dollar will chase away the thin dollar? If you make your store too appealing to women size 12 or greater, then they will lose their cachet with the young, thin and fashionable, who are seen as being the more reliable fashion dollar.
I think that has to be it. The former CEO of Abercrombie infamously said as much, and even though his reign of fuckwittery is over, the mindset is still followed by business leaders who are smart enough not to say things like that out loud.
The whole situation reminds me of a post from The Mary Sue that explained why Marvel and Disney were not selling merchandise featuring Black Widow or Gamora, despite clear demand for such a product. Girls buy princess toys, boys buy superhero toys. If you market boy toys to girls, then boys won't want to buy them any more. So I'm guessing that many clothing companies figure that the cachet they garner for being an aspirational brand will offset the lose of an actual consumer base.
Me, I just want some really comfy pj pants with Peggy Carter on them.
posted by bibliowench at 6:33 PM on September 28, 2015 [5 favorites]
I think that has to be it. The former CEO of Abercrombie infamously said as much, and even though his reign of fuckwittery is over, the mindset is still followed by business leaders who are smart enough not to say things like that out loud.
The whole situation reminds me of a post from The Mary Sue that explained why Marvel and Disney were not selling merchandise featuring Black Widow or Gamora, despite clear demand for such a product. Girls buy princess toys, boys buy superhero toys. If you market boy toys to girls, then boys won't want to buy them any more. So I'm guessing that many clothing companies figure that the cachet they garner for being an aspirational brand will offset the lose of an actual consumer base.
Me, I just want some really comfy pj pants with Peggy Carter on them.
posted by bibliowench at 6:33 PM on September 28, 2015 [5 favorites]
My hunch is that a multi-thousand-dollar outfit becomes a much harder sell in a society that tells people they're not going to be beautiful regardless of spending that money, because size.
The trick is to get them inside said outfit, so the outfit itself can tell them otherwise, even before they look in the mirror. Vivienne Westwood's ready-to-wear clothes routinely include XXL, said to be US 14-16.
Sadly I do not know if that is vanity sizing so if anyone wants to bankroll me I'd be delighted to order up some research materials.
Largish people (the online celebrity image reservoir slants skinny):
Vivienne Westwood model Christina Hendricks.
Vivienne Westwood model Brienne of Tarth.
Dita Von Teese in Vivienne Westwood:
Cream, beside the runway.
Subtly retro-1700s, at a book-signing.
'Bird of Paradise' dress, with tricorner hat, suitable for wedding Marilyn Manson.
(There are many more, most not designed specifically for Von Teese.)
posted by feral_goldfish at 6:36 PM on September 28, 2015
The trick is to get them inside said outfit, so the outfit itself can tell them otherwise, even before they look in the mirror. Vivienne Westwood's ready-to-wear clothes routinely include XXL, said to be US 14-16.
Sadly I do not know if that is vanity sizing so if anyone wants to bankroll me I'd be delighted to order up some research materials.
Largish people (the online celebrity image reservoir slants skinny):
Vivienne Westwood model Christina Hendricks.
Vivienne Westwood model Brienne of Tarth.
Dita Von Teese in Vivienne Westwood:
Cream, beside the runway.
Subtly retro-1700s, at a book-signing.
'Bird of Paradise' dress, with tricorner hat, suitable for wedding Marilyn Manson.
(There are many more, most not designed specifically for Von Teese.)
posted by feral_goldfish at 6:36 PM on September 28, 2015
I'm back in straight sizes now, somewhere between an 8 and a 10 (was 16-18), but I still have the curvy shape, so lots of straight size clothes don't fit my chest or my rear end. I don't think I have worn a shirt with buttons for at least a decade. I have figured out what does work, so I basically do a variant on the capsule wardrobe idea, where I get the same type of thing in lots of different colors, and mix and match. It is not very creative, but it helps to avoid lots of guesswork.
posted by matildaben at 6:37 PM on September 28, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by matildaben at 6:37 PM on September 28, 2015 [1 favorite]
I'm a size 12-14 and just want to sing praise to ASOS, which has an excellent plus-size collection. The flipside of so many retailers being assholes about plus sizes (either not offering them or shoving them away in a dark corner), is I think we're starting to see a lot more excellent plus-size-only places. So what that means is I got a gorgeous and I mean GORGEOUS dress this summer from ASOS Curve, and it looks fantastic on me. I liked it so much I bought it in a 12 AND a 14 so I CAN ALWAYS WEAR IT. Anyway, I get this dress and I go to a party and met up with one of my friends, who is naturally tall and willowy. And she was like I LOVE YOUR DRESS WHERE DID YOU GET IT. And I was like, oh darn. I got it from ASOS but it's only available in plus size. Sorry, friend!
I say this a little jokingly as she's a good friend and has never made me feel bad in any way about anything and I would have loved for her to have been able to buy this dress. But at the same time, I'd be lying if I didn't say I feel a little bit of glee that after a lifetime of having to wear the throw-offs and wishing I could get the cute stuff in my size, there are not only beautiful clothes finally available to us but they're available to only us.
posted by triggerfinger at 6:59 PM on September 28, 2015 [4 favorites]
I say this a little jokingly as she's a good friend and has never made me feel bad in any way about anything and I would have loved for her to have been able to buy this dress. But at the same time, I'd be lying if I didn't say I feel a little bit of glee that after a lifetime of having to wear the throw-offs and wishing I could get the cute stuff in my size, there are not only beautiful clothes finally available to us but they're available to only us.
posted by triggerfinger at 6:59 PM on September 28, 2015 [4 favorites]
Also, from my teenager years onward, I've fluctuated from a size 8 to 16 and like the author, I have intentionally fed myself a positive visual diet for the last 20 years. As a result, I've built up a pretty good collection of not only clothing stores, but blogs, sites and other things that cater to women of all sizes. I've made myself a facebook interest list so whenever I want to see new fashion ideas or just things that are body-positive, I can go to that feed and get a news stream 100% dedicated to showing women of all ages, sizes, races, etc modeling clothes, trying out new fashion or just doing their thing and I love it. Total pick-me-up.
posted by triggerfinger at 7:07 PM on September 28, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by triggerfinger at 7:07 PM on September 28, 2015 [1 favorite]
The author dismisses stores like Lane Bryant and Ashley Stewart - are their clothes just unfashionable?
Imagine having to buy your entire wardrobe at Tommy Bahama. It's like that.
posted by almostmanda at 8:03 PM on September 28, 2015 [8 favorites]
Imagine having to buy your entire wardrobe at Tommy Bahama. It's like that.
posted by almostmanda at 8:03 PM on September 28, 2015 [8 favorites]
I literally just got the latest in what is an embarrassingly large number of eShakti dresses, because it's almost too easy to order them. I get mad at other lesser retailers, who do not offer custom necklines and pockets and which require calculus to try to size any garment more complicated than a scarf. eShakti has never made me cry. Never. (The same cannot be said of past ventures into sewing.)
posted by jetlagaddict at 9:01 PM on September 28, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by jetlagaddict at 9:01 PM on September 28, 2015 [2 favorites]
As a man who likes to wear women's clothing (size 12ish), I often wonder how much of the size discrimination (try to find women's shoes larger than US 10) occurs because stores don't want trannies in there trying on stuff. ;) Hm. That's probably not it, but I always have to imagine some women have size 11 feet...
Maybe they are worried that the fat dollar will chase away the thin dollar? If you make your store too appealing to women size 12 or greater, then they will lose their cachet with the young, thin and fashionable, who are seen as being the more reliable fashion dollar.
That's absolutely it, of course. Not only are the young and thin (and white) the more reliable dollar, they are the influencers.
I'm not sure if it's so much retailers that are at the heart of the problem (i.e. fashion), it's the overarching need to sell your soul (and steal other people's) to make that extra buck. Optimization, etc. Advertising and marketing are the true evils. And all of us who pay attention to them.
posted by mrgrimm at 9:17 PM on September 28, 2015
Maybe they are worried that the fat dollar will chase away the thin dollar? If you make your store too appealing to women size 12 or greater, then they will lose their cachet with the young, thin and fashionable, who are seen as being the more reliable fashion dollar.
That's absolutely it, of course. Not only are the young and thin (and white) the more reliable dollar, they are the influencers.
I'm not sure if it's so much retailers that are at the heart of the problem (i.e. fashion), it's the overarching need to sell your soul (and steal other people's) to make that extra buck. Optimization, etc. Advertising and marketing are the true evils. And all of us who pay attention to them.
posted by mrgrimm at 9:17 PM on September 28, 2015
As a man it's usually so much easier, they just use actual measurements because they aren't invested in some sort of psychological game playing with us.
Hahhahhaha... Yeah, funny thing about that, it's not true. I think it used to be, and god knows they pretend it is. Oh, I'm a '36' waste, that means '36 inches', right? Nope. It used to. But then manufacturers found out that men had a little boost of self esteem if they fit into the 34, so suddenly the 35-36 inch wastes are actually size 34.
I have a friend of mine that goes down from Canada (which apparently doesn't inflate it's sizes as much as the US - yet) to the US so he can buy pants that have a smaller number waste.
Oh, and of course this varies by manufacturer.
posted by el io at 10:55 PM on September 28, 2015 [2 favorites]
Hahhahhaha... Yeah, funny thing about that, it's not true. I think it used to be, and god knows they pretend it is. Oh, I'm a '36' waste, that means '36 inches', right? Nope. It used to. But then manufacturers found out that men had a little boost of self esteem if they fit into the 34, so suddenly the 35-36 inch wastes are actually size 34.
I have a friend of mine that goes down from Canada (which apparently doesn't inflate it's sizes as much as the US - yet) to the US so he can buy pants that have a smaller number waste.
Oh, and of course this varies by manufacturer.
posted by el io at 10:55 PM on September 28, 2015 [2 favorites]
Project Runway this season has a plus-size (both in clothes and as a plus-size woman herself) designer (TEAM ASHLEY 4EVA!!!) who is super wonderful sparkly-hearts great, both for being a decent to good designer and bringing some discussions about fit and being a plus-size woman in fashion on the screen. I am so hoping she wins.
That aside - I lost 50 pounds this year on the wonderful trauma diet, and am still losing weight. Buying clothes has become so fucking simple, it's crazy. I bought jeans off the internet in twenty minutes yesterday. Dark wash, a size smaller than my current jeans which are too loose now, and on sale with free shipping, yay. Previously, jeans meant hunting for plus sizing and either measuring and looking for pants that were going to be at least 3-4x more expensive or slinking around stores looking for the bigger racks and hoping they had something that fit, never mind if I actually liked it.
I mean it is ridiculous how easy it is to buy clothes now. I can walk into a store and find something that fits and then I have enough choices now I can choose based on style immediately. I don't have to spend hours online or going through racks looking for sizes and wondering what will fit, how it will fit, if I can afford the mistake because it turns out that it doesn't quite fit but it's all I could find after three hours of shopping....
It's basically going from a 5% hit rate to a 75% hit rate in clothes. I'm all yay, this is great for the time and choices, but fuck that for not being an option to me before when I was bigger.
Some part of it is definitely distribution - the clothes I can fit now are very generic shaped. An inch difference here or there at a bust makes little difference to their overall shape, but when you're a lot bigger, that difference can be several inches and someone who has big shoulders and strong thighs vs someone who has narrow shoulders and big hips will look starkly different in fit at a size 20 level, while at a size 8 level, that difference is much more muted.
But mostly, it's just idiocy. I want to applaud when I see a plus-size woman in great clothes because she has worked so hard to find and get those clothes and that style, but now I'm not so big I feel like a 'passing' plus-size person. It's weird.
Oh and cheap. I can buy a whole outfit for the cost of like one decent plus-size top! It's crazy.
posted by dorothyisunderwood at 11:09 PM on September 28, 2015 [1 favorite]
That aside - I lost 50 pounds this year on the wonderful trauma diet, and am still losing weight. Buying clothes has become so fucking simple, it's crazy. I bought jeans off the internet in twenty minutes yesterday. Dark wash, a size smaller than my current jeans which are too loose now, and on sale with free shipping, yay. Previously, jeans meant hunting for plus sizing and either measuring and looking for pants that were going to be at least 3-4x more expensive or slinking around stores looking for the bigger racks and hoping they had something that fit, never mind if I actually liked it.
I mean it is ridiculous how easy it is to buy clothes now. I can walk into a store and find something that fits and then I have enough choices now I can choose based on style immediately. I don't have to spend hours online or going through racks looking for sizes and wondering what will fit, how it will fit, if I can afford the mistake because it turns out that it doesn't quite fit but it's all I could find after three hours of shopping....
It's basically going from a 5% hit rate to a 75% hit rate in clothes. I'm all yay, this is great for the time and choices, but fuck that for not being an option to me before when I was bigger.
Some part of it is definitely distribution - the clothes I can fit now are very generic shaped. An inch difference here or there at a bust makes little difference to their overall shape, but when you're a lot bigger, that difference can be several inches and someone who has big shoulders and strong thighs vs someone who has narrow shoulders and big hips will look starkly different in fit at a size 20 level, while at a size 8 level, that difference is much more muted.
But mostly, it's just idiocy. I want to applaud when I see a plus-size woman in great clothes because she has worked so hard to find and get those clothes and that style, but now I'm not so big I feel like a 'passing' plus-size person. It's weird.
Oh and cheap. I can buy a whole outfit for the cost of like one decent plus-size top! It's crazy.
posted by dorothyisunderwood at 11:09 PM on September 28, 2015 [1 favorite]
I have no interest in making excuses for the clothing industry; they don't need this fat woman's tears. Read about what free trade and globalization did for it sometime, look up the profits, see how few corporations own all the stores, see what peanuts they pay their retail employees (you'll never find out what the factory workers make). This isn't your neighborhood tailor still working out how to design a flattering size 24 dress; this is a horrible, horrible industry. The problems didn't go away when people stopped talking about sweatshops. Learning to sew is one answer, but I'd rather we all reform the fuck out of it.
Rant aside, it is cathartic to read this thread. As somebody who has worn both women's and men's clothing, I will note that you don't realize just how screwed over plus-size women are until you get fitted for a men's suit and realize it's the only not-terrible shopping experience you can remember.
posted by thetortoise at 12:03 AM on September 29, 2015 [8 favorites]
Rant aside, it is cathartic to read this thread. As somebody who has worn both women's and men's clothing, I will note that you don't realize just how screwed over plus-size women are until you get fitted for a men's suit and realize it's the only not-terrible shopping experience you can remember.
posted by thetortoise at 12:03 AM on September 29, 2015 [8 favorites]
I think anyone wanting to dress on the more "male" side is worse off. At least there's ModCloth and the like for dresses and skirts and girly things, while for guys it's just hideous Hawaiian shirts, ill fitting cargo pants, and dress shirts that will never fit quite right.
Men's clothing tends to be easier to tailor and can be made to measure at much lower price points than equivalent quality women's clothing.
posted by atrazine at 2:31 AM on September 29, 2015
Men's clothing tends to be easier to tailor and can be made to measure at much lower price points than equivalent quality women's clothing.
posted by atrazine at 2:31 AM on September 29, 2015
Oh mrgrimm... size 11-13, depending on the shoe. I'm with you, my friend. Fluevogs are reliably available in larger sizes, at least. It complicates things, having a bubble butt the size of Texas AND big feet. I know I must have drifted into the pajama section on accident when I start finding things that look comfy and fun to wear.
posted by bitter-girl.com at 5:04 AM on September 29, 2015
posted by bitter-girl.com at 5:04 AM on September 29, 2015
Also, if anyone is interested, I'm linking a few sites that I like that have great plus-size clothing (in addition to the other ones mentioned in this thread):
Rebdolls
Universal Standard
Jibri
Pinup Girl Clothing
Unique Vintage
Hips and Curves (lingerie)
Smart Glamour
Tatyana
Fashion to Figure
Igigi
Anna Scholz
Swimsuits For All
Mei Smith
posted by triggerfinger at 6:56 AM on September 29, 2015 [18 favorites]
Rebdolls
Universal Standard
Jibri
Pinup Girl Clothing
Unique Vintage
Hips and Curves (lingerie)
Smart Glamour
Tatyana
Fashion to Figure
Igigi
Anna Scholz
Swimsuits For All
Mei Smith
posted by triggerfinger at 6:56 AM on September 29, 2015 [18 favorites]
One thing I noticed, when I got down to Swimsuits For All, is that their bikini selection was almost entirely high waisted or skirt. Like it's noticeable to the point where it sticks out like a sore thumb.
Does it make anyone else feel... awkward? Like even when the world is trying to consciously not judge they still can't get away from it.
posted by Talez at 7:27 AM on September 29, 2015
Does it make anyone else feel... awkward? Like even when the world is trying to consciously not judge they still can't get away from it.
posted by Talez at 7:27 AM on September 29, 2015
I think the only time I have ever been in a dressing room without a crippling sense of body shame is when I got pregnant. Suddenly I get to be larger! I still had to track down the XLs in the midst of the rest of the clothes in the front, but that got me angry at the industry, not at myself. (Other anger point: I never knew clothes could be so... comfortable and durable. No restrictive waist, just stretchy fabric to go over the belly! Woo argh!)
posted by XtinaS at 7:36 AM on September 29, 2015
posted by XtinaS at 7:36 AM on September 29, 2015
We have this on both ends at our house. I'm borderline misses/plus and I need tall clothes for long sleeves and trouser length (particularly if I'm buying to wear with even moderate heels). My husband is big and his body length is in the torso so he's tall in shirts. We both do a lot of our buying online.
Used to be there was a really nice store in Dallas that dealt with big and tall men's clothes (Rochester Big & Tall; I used to recommend it on the green all the time) but they merged with the casual big & tall store and now everything is either super-expensive suits or cheap stuff. My poor husband really is reduced to what someone said up thread: buying most everything shirtwise from Tommy Bahama. I'm the same way but I have several online shops I can hit, at least. Thank goodness for the internet or I think I'd be running around naked or never leaving the house.
posted by immlass at 7:41 AM on September 29, 2015
Used to be there was a really nice store in Dallas that dealt with big and tall men's clothes (Rochester Big & Tall; I used to recommend it on the green all the time) but they merged with the casual big & tall store and now everything is either super-expensive suits or cheap stuff. My poor husband really is reduced to what someone said up thread: buying most everything shirtwise from Tommy Bahama. I'm the same way but I have several online shops I can hit, at least. Thank goodness for the internet or I think I'd be running around naked or never leaving the house.
posted by immlass at 7:41 AM on September 29, 2015
Hahhahhaha... Yeah, funny thing about that, it's not true. I think it used to be, and god knows they pretend it is. Oh, I'm a '36' waste, that means '36 inches', right? Nope. It used to. But then manufacturers found out that men had a little boost of self esteem if they fit into the 34, so suddenly the 35-36 inch wastes are actually size 34.
I have dude's cargos from the same manufacturer that have this issue. Sigh.
That's probably not it, but I always have to imagine some women have size 11 feet...
My wife's gf is 6 foot tall. And a big woman. Buying clothes is difficult, and she does 99% of her shopping online, including shoes.
posted by joycehealy at 11:27 AM on September 29, 2015
I have dude's cargos from the same manufacturer that have this issue. Sigh.
That's probably not it, but I always have to imagine some women have size 11 feet...
My wife's gf is 6 foot tall. And a big woman. Buying clothes is difficult, and she does 99% of her shopping online, including shoes.
posted by joycehealy at 11:27 AM on September 29, 2015
That's probably not it, but I always have to imagine some women have size 11 feet...
My friend with the size 12 feet loves Pay-Less because they at least have some shoes in her size. Maybe she doesn't love them, but they fit, damn it, and they don't cost $100 a pair.
posted by palindromic at 11:50 AM on September 29, 2015
My friend with the size 12 feet loves Pay-Less because they at least have some shoes in her size. Maybe she doesn't love them, but they fit, damn it, and they don't cost $100 a pair.
posted by palindromic at 11:50 AM on September 29, 2015
Nordstrom Rack was always the go-to place for my friends who wore larger ladies shoe sizes and needed something nicer than the Payless offerings, so if anyone needs nice shoes for larger feet and has a Nordstrom Rack in their area, try them.
posted by palomar at 11:57 AM on September 29, 2015
posted by palomar at 11:57 AM on September 29, 2015
The best thing about Nordstrom Rack and Payless is that they sort shoes by size, so you can go directly to the size 11s and see what they have, as opposed to places like Marshall's where you go through the dreary routine of seeing a potentially cute shoe (everything's cute in a size 6; it doesn't always scale), then sorting through all the boxes to see that they don't have your size.
The good news is that as a woman who wears a size 11, I can cross over to the men's section and grab a nice pair of athletic shoes in men's 9 1/2 (sorry guys), and usually pay less than I would for the (unavailable) women's style. This is also how I found a my favorite pair of oxblood penny loafers that are my go-to casual shoe.
There's a whole 'nother post about the hell of shoe-shopping if you wear a smaller or larger size than what most retailers stock, but we'll save that for another day.
posted by mogget at 12:34 PM on September 29, 2015 [2 favorites]
The good news is that as a woman who wears a size 11, I can cross over to the men's section and grab a nice pair of athletic shoes in men's 9 1/2 (sorry guys), and usually pay less than I would for the (unavailable) women's style. This is also how I found a my favorite pair of oxblood penny loafers that are my go-to casual shoe.
There's a whole 'nother post about the hell of shoe-shopping if you wear a smaller or larger size than what most retailers stock, but we'll save that for another day.
posted by mogget at 12:34 PM on September 29, 2015 [2 favorites]
What finally drove me to eShakti was sleeves.
I am fat. Quite fat. Fat enough that it's probably the first thing people notice about me. But even given my size, my upper arms are disproportionately large. This wasn't such a big problem when garments were cut with more ease, but the trend now is for sleeves to be cut very close to the body. As a result, I was having a very hard time finding clothes I could physically jam my arms through. Even in plus sizes! Even in plus sizes 2-3 sizes above the size all my other measurements indicated!
This is complicated by the fact that even many stores that carry plus sizes do not have them in the actual physical store where you can try them on. You have to order them from online -- and pay shipping. And while the store will publish bust/waist/hip measurements, they never, ever publish sleeve diameter. So I had to order tops by eyeballing which garments appeared to be particularly loose in the arms on the size 10 mannequin, and resign myself to paying not just the plus-size tax but also shipping both ways when something inevitably once again did not go on over my arms. Spending $60 on a sweater is bad enough, but spending $15 extra in shipping for the privilege of being reminded that ha ha, fatty, not for you is beyond what I can take.
eShakti, though? Upper arm circumference is one of the customizeable measurements they have. Now all the shirts I have fit in the sleeves. In addition, I discovered that when something is actually the right size for both my shoulders (tiny) and my boobs (giant), V-necks actually stay V-necks instead of walking backwards until they are weird boat-necks with a . . . reverse cowl back, I guess? Literally everything I wear is from them because I am simply not willing to take my chances on the Tiny Sleeve Craptacular any more.
posted by KathrynT at 2:50 PM on September 29, 2015 [7 favorites]
I am fat. Quite fat. Fat enough that it's probably the first thing people notice about me. But even given my size, my upper arms are disproportionately large. This wasn't such a big problem when garments were cut with more ease, but the trend now is for sleeves to be cut very close to the body. As a result, I was having a very hard time finding clothes I could physically jam my arms through. Even in plus sizes! Even in plus sizes 2-3 sizes above the size all my other measurements indicated!
This is complicated by the fact that even many stores that carry plus sizes do not have them in the actual physical store where you can try them on. You have to order them from online -- and pay shipping. And while the store will publish bust/waist/hip measurements, they never, ever publish sleeve diameter. So I had to order tops by eyeballing which garments appeared to be particularly loose in the arms on the size 10 mannequin, and resign myself to paying not just the plus-size tax but also shipping both ways when something inevitably once again did not go on over my arms. Spending $60 on a sweater is bad enough, but spending $15 extra in shipping for the privilege of being reminded that ha ha, fatty, not for you is beyond what I can take.
eShakti, though? Upper arm circumference is one of the customizeable measurements they have. Now all the shirts I have fit in the sleeves. In addition, I discovered that when something is actually the right size for both my shoulders (tiny) and my boobs (giant), V-necks actually stay V-necks instead of walking backwards until they are weird boat-necks with a . . . reverse cowl back, I guess? Literally everything I wear is from them because I am simply not willing to take my chances on the Tiny Sleeve Craptacular any more.
posted by KathrynT at 2:50 PM on September 29, 2015 [7 favorites]
Well, I'm now sold on eShakti thanks to this thread.
posted by TwoStride at 3:09 PM on September 29, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by TwoStride at 3:09 PM on September 29, 2015 [1 favorite]
I always have to imagine some women have size 11 feet
Hey those are my feet - I am 5'9". My mom, 5'7", wears a 12 narrow!
For me, hello Ebay. Hells yes I'll pay $20 for $80 shoes worn once.
posted by Glinn at 5:53 PM on September 29, 2015
Hey those are my feet - I am 5'9". My mom, 5'7", wears a 12 narrow!
For me, hello Ebay. Hells yes I'll pay $20 for $80 shoes worn once.
posted by Glinn at 5:53 PM on September 29, 2015
I keep meaning to try eshakti and all the recs here make me more determined to. While Lane Bryant stuff can work well for me (their jeans tend to fit me absoluty dead-on) I refuse to buy anything there not on sale or with a coupon. Quality can really be hit or miss and yeah, I hate the tendency to bejewel everything .
As for feet, god. I only wear a 9.5-10 (hah) but my feet are wide. No, wider than that. Sometimes I can squeeze them into plus size shoe store shoes but thank god for zappos - except it means I sent back four shoes for every one I keep. I have always felt awkward shopping with my two best friends, both of them five foot nothing and slender. We have to spend time in stores that are the exact opposites of each other.
posted by PussKillian at 6:30 PM on September 29, 2015 [2 favorites]
As for feet, god. I only wear a 9.5-10 (hah) but my feet are wide. No, wider than that. Sometimes I can squeeze them into plus size shoe store shoes but thank god for zappos - except it means I sent back four shoes for every one I keep. I have always felt awkward shopping with my two best friends, both of them five foot nothing and slender. We have to spend time in stores that are the exact opposites of each other.
posted by PussKillian at 6:30 PM on September 29, 2015 [2 favorites]
I'm somewhere between a 12-16 (US), depending on the store and depending on the garment, which puts me at the frequently-frustrating upper end of straight sizes (Me: "Can I try this skirt in a larger size? Like maybe a 14?" Condescencing boutique salesgirl: "None of our designers make clothes for plus sizes. Have you tried a department store?")
eShakti is absolutely marvelous. I always ALWAYS get compliments. Also it's comparatively cheap as hell and they bombard you with $20 coupons and buy two get one deals and the like. I'm enough of a dress glutton that I very nearly have a problem with eShakti.
posted by thivaia at 7:01 AM on September 30, 2015 [1 favorite]
eShakti is absolutely marvelous. I always ALWAYS get compliments. Also it's comparatively cheap as hell and they bombard you with $20 coupons and buy two get one deals and the like. I'm enough of a dress glutton that I very nearly have a problem with eShakti.
posted by thivaia at 7:01 AM on September 30, 2015 [1 favorite]
eShakti is having a three for one sale that ends today and I want to try them for the first time. But oh shit, I need to do my measurements!
posted by Kitteh at 7:29 AM on September 30, 2015
posted by Kitteh at 7:29 AM on September 30, 2015
I'm absolutely fascinated by eShakti but can't stand the idea of paying all the duties etc to ship here.
posted by jeather at 10:12 AM on September 30, 2015
posted by jeather at 10:12 AM on September 30, 2015
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posted by cortex (staff) at 11:41 AM on September 28, 2015 [18 favorites]