Stereotype Threat, Imposter Syndrome and Stereotype Tax

October 7, 2015 6:54 PM

How Poker Player Annie Duke Used Gender Stereotypes To Win Matches - "By the time she got to that championship game 10 years later, she had also figured out a way to make people pay, quite literally, for the stereotypes they had about her." (previously)
posted by kliuless (66 comments total)

I remember that game between Annie and Phil. It was delicious watching her whip Hellmuth.
posted by Thorzdad at 7:42 PM on October 7, 2015 [5 favorites]

I know more than I want to about poker, thanks to the mister. But I loved this. One, for female solidarity. And two, the takedown of Hellmuth.
posted by Ruki at 7:46 PM on October 7, 2015 [1 favorite]

The match in question. Hellmuth is quite the talker.
posted by Orange Pamplemousse at 8:02 PM on October 7, 2015 [6 favorites]

Ha. Basically this exact thing happened at my office poker tournament a few years back. A goofy girl who was widely misapprehended as the office ditz (she was a very bright woman who just liked acting silly and frivolous) smoked the usual champs in what I gather was a very intense game.

It was the upset of the century. Nobody who didn't know her well enough to know her office personality was an act could believe it. She made a huge pedestal for her trophy and kept it on display for MONTHS. So satisfying.
posted by town of cats at 8:03 PM on October 7, 2015 [64 favorites]

Hellmuth is a dick.

Of course my understanding is that he's an honest dick while Duke was implicated in some rather serious scandals.
posted by Justinian at 8:05 PM on October 7, 2015 [2 favorites]

Links, Justinian?
posted by Sebmojo at 8:09 PM on October 7, 2015 [4 favorites]

(to be fair to Duke, the guy who talked about her in regard to the God Mode scandal is a cheating liar so his statements are not exactly something to hang your hat on.)

Here is a video of the final hand where she whups Hellmuth for those interested.

on preview: sebmojo.
posted by Justinian at 8:14 PM on October 7, 2015 [1 favorite]

Oh, Duke's response (which I hadn't seen before now) is that the lying liar is simply mischaracterizing Duke having access to hole cards on a delay for events in which she was a commentator rather than a player.

I actually find that plausible and am gladdened since I've always liked what I've seen of Annie Duke. So I'm glad this FPP got posted since otherwise I would likely never have gone looking at it again.
posted by Justinian at 8:16 PM on October 7, 2015

I remember an interview a few years ago where she was asked why she was on TV less, her answer was that TV games are bad games because the table is full of great players and that she can make more money faster with a table of high rolling amatures any day.
posted by Cosine at 8:22 PM on October 7, 2015 [5 favorites]

I listened to this earlier this week as part of the Hidden Brain podcast - I don't know why it tickles me so to hear Hellmuth cussing up a storm.
posted by drewbage1847 at 8:22 PM on October 7, 2015

I think the key moment of that heads-up play is comes after Annie's K-9 vs Phil's K-7. The flop has K & 9, so Phil see's he's got top pair, but Annie's hit two pair. They spar for a bit, and then Phil folds. What happens next is the key moment: Phil shows his king — bragging about his top pair — and Annie shows her 9 but not the king. Phil instantly assumes he's just been bluffed, doesn't even consider that Annie might have been fucking with him. She plays right into his bullshit machismo "women suck at cards" assumption that Phil doesn't have a clue that he's being played. It's clear at that point that Annie's playing at a completely different level. She's so deep into Phil's head that she probably knows what Phil's thinking before he does.

Delicious. What an amazing moment.
posted by jacobian at 8:27 PM on October 7, 2015 [95 favorites]

Great link, kliuless, thanks. Also thanks for the vid link, Justinian. Love that gigantic pile of cash in the middle of the table - no pressure! I'm surprised that sunglasses are allowed at the table though. Seems like an unfair advantage if one player's eyes can't be seen.
posted by longdaysjourney at 8:30 PM on October 7, 2015

I remember an interview a few years ago where she was asked why she was on TV less, her answer was that TV games are bad games because the table is full of great players and that she can make more money faster with a table of high rolling amateurs any day.

Yeah, this is true for all the TV players. Say you're Phil Laak. You're maybe the 50th best poker player in the world. Would you rather sit down to a $200/$400 game with 5 other people who are all in the top 100, or walk down the strip and find a $50/$100 game with 5 people who don't crack the top 10,000?

Even if you're Phil Ivey or Tom Dwan, and thus pretty sure you've got an edge even on a table of top 100-ers, your profits going to be better against rich amateurs, even if it means you have to play a smaller game.

So, you can always be sure that the players on TV are either there because they are selling a brand or because they just love the camera. It's not because they want to play in that poker game.
posted by 256 at 8:31 PM on October 7, 2015 [2 favorites]

jacobian: maaaan...that hand is a level of mind mastery that is absolutely chilling, she is just running circles around an exceptionally skilled player and then gets to twist the knife without him ever knowing.
posted by Cosine at 8:37 PM on October 7, 2015 [1 favorite]

It's so striking to me that he is in sunglasses and hidden under a cap while she's open faced.

Kind of reminds me of the Ginger Rogers quote about doing everything Fred did backwards and in heels - Duke can beat Hellmuth's sunglasses-and-hat poker face, with a clear gaze and an open face.
posted by Dashy at 8:38 PM on October 7, 2015 [23 favorites]

Thanks for pointing that out, jacobian, I missed her reveal on the king 9. That was just incredible.
posted by Dashy at 8:41 PM on October 7, 2015 [2 favorites]

I think the key moment of that heads-up play is comes after Annie's K-9 vs Phil's K-7.

The extra delicious part is, (if you believe his verbalizations and this isn't some meta-meta game), that he talked himself out of his correct read by looking at a laydown of one of her cards!
posted by lalochezia at 8:54 PM on October 7, 2015 [5 favorites]

The first comment on the linked commentary is about how she was a bad choice as someone who is an outsider and a different woman should have been chosen to profile.

Lewis' Law is the gift that keeps on giving, even on things not explicitly about feminism.
posted by Deoridhe at 8:57 PM on October 7, 2015 [5 favorites]

The first comment on the linked commentary is about how she was a bad choice as someone who is an outsider and a different woman should have been chosen to profile.


But but but... she has bad hygiene... (staggering)
posted by Cosine at 8:59 PM on October 7, 2015

Seems like an unfair advantage if one player's eyes can't be seen.

It's only an advantage if she can't control what information her eyes convey
posted by aubilenon at 9:17 PM on October 7, 2015 [2 favorites]

The first season of Celebrity Poker Showdown championship table Nicole Sullivan from "King of Queens" won, in part by laying on the "I'm just a girl" act, to the point of her saying "You're very handsome" to Paul Rudd when they were heads up, and getting him to make a bad call.

By the end, Kevin Pollack and Phil Gordon (the commentators), are speculating out loud that she's secretly been practicing and the whole "This is all so very different from video poker" act is exactly that.

After winning $100k for Alley Cat Allies, Sullivan confirmed that yes, she had been practicing and the "Ooh, do I bet now?" was all an act.
posted by Pirate-Bartender-Zombie-Monkey at 9:26 PM on October 7, 2015 [3 favorites]

It sort of blows my mind (but maybe shouldn't) that the editing in the video that Justinian linked to the commentary is effectively:

- she's talking to her bigger brother (little sis, and 3-4th phrase she utters after winning has the word sorry)
versus
- he is swearing up a storm about how it's impossible.

Pretty interesting contrast.

And ... maybe it's my not-native-English, but it sounded so wrong - "the only female at the table". Why not "woman"?
posted by olya at 10:36 PM on October 7, 2015 [5 favorites]

Oh, for sure, Annie Duke was involved with the Full Tilt debacle, and I wouldn't want to have her over for dinner, because she comes across as an unpleasant person, but I do enjoy Phil Loudmouth getting a comeuppance.
posted by Ruki at 10:48 PM on October 7, 2015

I'm very much curious to hear the explanation for all the other times that her strategy didn't work for her.

I mean, geez, she's a great poker player but this is an example of shoehorning an anecdote into research. It's an analysis done completely in hindsight based on the testimony of one person about an incident that had happened 10 years prior with no background information for relevance, the exact sort of thing game/sports analysts have been pointing out as flawed for a few years now (and scientists for much longer).

Whatever you think of pro poker players, I'm fairly certain that the ones who are at the top of the game don't fall for tricks like that on the regular, if at all, because if they did they wouldn't be at the top of the game.
posted by Maugrim at 11:31 PM on October 7, 2015 [2 favorites]

The first comment on the linked commentary is about how she was a bad choice as someone who is an outsider and a different woman should have been chosen to profile.

The second one is hilariously bad, in the way it downplays her winning this trophy:
"This was in 2004 as poker was exploding. ESPN hand picked the 10 players they thought would get the best ratings, not the 10 player they thought were the best at poker..."

Duke beat Hellmuth, Negreanu, Brunson, Reece, Chan, Cloutier. That's a pretty damn good collection of poker players IMHO.
posted by Pink Frost at 11:42 PM on October 7, 2015 [1 favorite]

Although huge among casual players I'm pretty skeptical that stereotype threat is a significant advantage for women at the top level. Someone that prone to manipulation via one stereotype would probably also be prone to others, and hence, not a top player. It's also kind of sexist to say that bamboozling the males is how women succeed at poker.

As far as I can remember from my poker watching days, that's how Phil Helmuth ALWAYS reacted to getting knocked out (even when it was before the final table).

Finally, regardless of how ESPN picked the 10 players, the result of a single table tournement is not significant because math. Poker's just statistically noisier than that.
posted by lastobelus at 12:35 AM on October 8, 2015

For example, here's 5 Helmuth blowups, and notice the poster included the Annie Duke one because another poster forgot it in a larger post of Helmuth blowups: helmuth blowups
posted by lastobelus at 12:38 AM on October 8, 2015

olya:And ... maybe it's my not-native-English, but it sounded so wrong - "the only female at the table". Why not "woman"?

I think this is a US-english thing. And yeah, it grates on the ears of this UK-english speaker too.
posted by pharm at 1:18 AM on October 8, 2015

I think this is a US-english thing. And yeah, it grates on the ears of this UK-english speaker too.

I'm American and a woman, and on hearing "the only female at the table" I promptly started cussing nearly as much as Hellmuth. Something along the lines of "fuck you assholes, she just kicked ass and you're referring to her as 'female'? Fuck this shit, goddamn, we're in the fucking 21st century and still being treated as less than, no matter what we achieve."
posted by fraula at 2:24 AM on October 8, 2015 [28 favorites]

Did I miss something? Why is "female" insulting? Is it always insulting? Or just the way it is used here?
posted by trif at 3:31 AM on October 8, 2015 [1 favorite]

It's only insulting because guys are never "males", they're "men". It makes "female" sound like "the female of the species", ie, an animal.
posted by chainsofreedom at 3:45 AM on October 8, 2015 [37 favorites]

"Female" is a put-them-in-their-place sort of word.
posted by ardgedee at 3:48 AM on October 8, 2015 [24 favorites]

It's not the word female. It's using "female" as the noun. "A female." It's weirdly clinical, as if the word "woman" is embarrassing to say.
posted by ctmf at 3:58 AM on October 8, 2015 [24 favorites]

"Female" as a noun is used a lot by PUA and MRA types. Really gross.
posted by lunasol at 4:23 AM on October 8, 2015 [19 favorites]

Yes, it would not be at all weird if the phrase was "the only female poker player."
posted by 256 at 4:23 AM on October 8, 2015 [1 favorite]

<ferengi>feeeeemaaaaales</ferengi>
posted by Justinian at 4:43 AM on October 8, 2015 [28 favorites]

I've started saying "Alright there, Dr. Strangelove" to men that refer to women as females.
posted by STFUDonnie at 4:56 AM on October 8, 2015 [4 favorites]

I've long had a hard time with the "female" used as a noun thing, too. It always comes across as saying "We subjected her to a battery of gynecological exams to confirm she is, in fact, female, before letting her into our boy's club."

Quite honestly, I don't think gender should be a topic at all, unless it's some kind of barrier-breaking event (like, say, first to play in major league baseball). But, even then, I think "woman" is a far better, less dog-whistly, term.
posted by Thorzdad at 5:18 AM on October 8, 2015

I feel like I've never heard it used in that context, but I'll undoubtedly hear it all the time now, thus exposing my tone deafness
posted by trif at 5:57 AM on October 8, 2015 [1 favorite]

AskMetafilter: Why do anti-feminists use "female" rather than "woman"?
posted by jaguar at 6:08 AM on October 8, 2015 [4 favorites]

"It's only insulting because guys are never "males", they're "men"."

Uhm, guys are referred to as "males" on a lot of occasions.
posted by I-baLL at 6:16 AM on October 8, 2015

I'm very much curious to hear the explanation for all the other times that her strategy didn't work for her.

She didn't get the hands she needed, or the money balance wasn't right, or her opponent read through her strategy, or a million other factors that make poker a combined game of luck and skill. Maybe because I'm a woman who works in a predominantly male environment so I do see how my different gender can be both a negative and a positive when dealing with some situations, but I didn't read anything in this article as saying that women are always better poker players than men because they're discounted, or that using stereotypes to your advantage always works. It's a curious interpretation.

My parents used to count cards at the blackjack tables in Reno (counting cards is very much frowned upon), and using stereotypes to their advantage netted them quite a bit of money, not to mention comped rooms and food and booze and such. No one seems to expect a fat housewife and her henpecked husband to understand gambling, and it's much easier to wave away the major tells of card counting (like splitting two tens) as making a stupid mistake if the floor boss reads you as a novice just looking to have a good time. But did it work every single time? No, of course not. Otherwise it wouldn't be gambling.
posted by muddgirl at 6:20 AM on October 8, 2015 [15 favorites]

TL;DR it's a tool in her tool chest. It's not the right tool for every situation. Sometimes it works best in a combination with other tools. Or maybe another tool would have worked equally well or even better. But that doesn't invalidate it.
posted by muddgirl at 6:32 AM on October 8, 2015 [2 favorites]

I got so irritated when, after Helmuth had already begun moving around in an agitated manner and muttering to himself, Duke won, smiled, and the announcer said something like "she's so emotional over this victory." Yo, HELMUTH is emotional. She was like... seriously restrained compared to him. But male emotion is invisible.
posted by prefpara at 6:32 AM on October 8, 2015 [29 favorites]

Anger doesn't count as an emotion in men. It's just mannily manly manliness.
posted by jaguar at 6:34 AM on October 8, 2015 [27 favorites]

When I was a student I attended a week long conference meeting where a group of people played a lot of poker in the off times. It was for money but not big stakes. I had played poker before but not enough that I didn't need a refresher and a few reminders of rules and what hands beat what.

I recognize all three of the types she mentions from experience though in this case it mostly the first and second showed their face. I was well aware that I came off as a beginner and inexperienced and played that up. Then as it became obvious to some that I understood more then I first appeared I would change what I was doing. Even then there were a few that just couldn't get past the initial stereotype and one in particular who prided himself on being and awesome player just couldn't handle getting beaten by me. He was good but not as good as he thought. He was looked upon as being a bit of egotistical jerk in general so at times there were others (guys) playing who figured out exactly how I was using his ego and pride against him and they would take advantage of how I was playing in order to beat him themselves.

I have no problems admitting that there was great satisfaction in winning by taking advantage of the blindness these stereotypes of me appeared to create. Go ahead think I'm a dumb girl that's experiencing a run of blind/beginners luck or whatever. Just means I have more money to spend on beer. The swearing and muttering was a bonus.
posted by Jalliah at 6:40 AM on October 8, 2015 [8 favorites]

(to be fair to Duke, the guy who talked about her in regard to the God Mode scandal is a cheating liar so his statements are not exactly something to hang your hat on.)

Although it is certainly true that Russ is a scumbag, remember that Greg Pierson and two UB attorneys were in the room on the tape recording when he said it and no one contradicted him. I'd also point out that Annie and Phil were very old friends when this event took place. It wasn't like he didn't know who she was.
posted by Lame_username at 7:59 AM on October 8, 2015

The first and so far only time I've been to a casino, I took a 'regular' out. There were 2 kings down and 9, 5, 2 unsuited, and this guy (to me) clearly had a 3rd king but nothing else. He made big bets, I followed them 'dumbly' and had a few 'little lady's tossed at me. He went all in at the end, so I called that because I had a pocket pair of 9s. It was sweet.
posted by Dashy at 8:04 AM on October 8, 2015 [3 favorites]

Wait, but triple kings beat triples 9s, don't they?

Also, I once spent a lot of time watching "Helmuth blows up" videos. It was a zany day.
posted by I-baLL at 8:31 AM on October 8, 2015

Dashy had a full house, which beats 3 of a kind.

Also, I find it amusing that being friends with Annie Duke is a defense against being an unconscious mysoginist or stereotyping women. The world is so easy and simple from that perspective - mysoginists hate all women, therefore if you are friends with a woman then you are immune from bias. It doesn't hold true for me at all.
posted by muddgirl at 8:33 AM on October 8, 2015 [1 favorite]

"Dashy had a full house, which beats 3 of a kind."


..aaaand this is why I don't play poker.
posted by I-baLL at 8:34 AM on October 8, 2015

I don't know if Helmuth is a misogynist, but I don't think that's what we're seeing here. Listen to what he says on the way out: He's griping not because she's a woman, but because she had the cards to win every race. Duke's a great player and she totally got into Helmuth's head in this game. BUT she had the cards (aka luck), and that will send any losing poker player muttering to his/her grave.

If the "stereotype tax" was so easily exploitable, I think we'd be seeing more women at WSOP. Only 1 woman (medical malpractice attorney Kelly Minkin) made it through Day 5.

I think the key moment of that heads-up play is comes after Annie's K-9 vs Phil's K-7.

I agree with this, but if Helmuth goes on to win, everyone would be congratulating him on his lay-down.
posted by sixpack at 8:43 AM on October 8, 2015 [1 favorite]

> I find it amusing that being friends with Annie Duke is a defense against being an unconscious mysoginist or stereotyping women.

That would be a minor variation on the "Some of my best friends are [ethnicity|race|gender]" excuse making commonly spoken by politicians and businesspeople when caught out on their prejudices.
posted by ardgedee at 8:58 AM on October 8, 2015 [2 favorites]

Meanwhile, Phil Ivey accuses the Borgata of trying to distract him with booze and "pretty cocktail waitresses."
posted by sixpack at 9:03 AM on October 8, 2015

Annie Duke was one of the few poker players that I actually liked watching. Her brother was another. Daniel Negreanu and Phil Ivey were next.

I have the softest spot for Phil Laak though.

I never had a problem playing with women at the table. I treated them like I treated everyone else at the table. Asshole thieves out to take my money. I'm generally not nice to these sorts of people. I have never made a friend at a poker table, and when I sit with my friends they become asshole thieves out to take my money.

I once made a woman at a poker table cry. Never managed that with the men. Twice had guys physically threaten me. Never had that with women.

Helmut is number two on my list of people I want to kick in the crotch. The number one spot changes as my mood, but that number two spot has Hellmuth in there for over a decade.

Man, I miss watching (and playing poker).
posted by cjorgensen at 9:10 AM on October 8, 2015 [1 favorite]

I don't want to watch the video again, but I thought that the "female" line was right before they declared her the "last man standing"--a phrase that they should've found a replacement for, but I think maybe they thought they were being "cute" by saying it this way--like "...the last man standing is actually a female! Oh, mercy, but aren't we clever!". Anyway...
posted by blueberry at 9:39 AM on October 8, 2015

The last human standing is actually a human!

Doesn't seem so clever anymore.
posted by grouse at 9:41 AM on October 8, 2015

Yes, they should change to "Last One Standing", but I assume they like "Last Man Standing" because it makes viewers of a televised card game think of themselves more like oiled-up hard-body warriors in the movie 300.
posted by blueberry at 10:08 AM on October 8, 2015

here's a crazy idea. LAST WOMAN STANDING. sidesteps female and clearly plays on last man standing without erasing the fact that she is not a man.
posted by twist my arm at 10:10 AM on October 8, 2015

"Last woman standing" has the implication to me that there are still men around.
posted by zug at 10:13 AM on October 8, 2015 [3 favorites]

does last man standing imply that there are women still playing?
posted by twist my arm at 10:15 AM on October 8, 2015 [7 favorites]

30 + years ago I used to play chess with Phil Helmuth occasionally in the student union at the University of Wisconsin; he was just starting to play poker seriously. He discovered that he could really rattle the average chess player by being aggressively obnoxious, since we didn't enforce decorum rules. He'd slam the clock hard enough to make it bounce and he'd natter and trash talk the whole match. He'd toss the board now and then. Here's the thing, though... It's not an act, although it is an exaggeration. He really is a petulant little asshole. He had trouble losing to me (female) and to the guy who was the best player in the circle, a Rastafarian, because we weren't rattled. The Rasta guy was both supremely confident and mellow, and I'd was older and had held a job running public meetings about raising property tax assessments, so I was impervious to tantrums, insults and screaming.

Phil took those findings to poker, which he discovered was a lot more lucrative. Tantrums are his brand. He's still dining out on the schtick with the whales, who think it's a complement to their playing skills (I got under Phil's skin!) or a rite of passage, like the way obnoxious NYC cabbies used to be.

I got serious about poker during the online boom, doing pretty well. My father put himself through school counting cards playing blackjack and via poker tables full of fish, so it runs in my veins. Now I play live games (mostly tournaments, which I prefer for risk management reasons) for fun because it exploits the fact that I'm a dumpy mid-fifties woman with greying hair, invisible to most. I'm nowhere near these folks' level, but I've won a few small tournaments and make money at it. I refuse to play with friends (don't want to take their money), but I have to say, there's nothing more fun that wiping out some Oakleys-and-hoodie wearing bro's stack.
posted by carmicha at 2:05 PM on October 8, 2015 [29 favorites]

I got serious about poker during the online boom, doing pretty well. My father put himself through school counting cards playing blackjack and via poker tables full of fish, so it runs in my veins. Now I play live games (mostly tournaments, which I prefer for risk management reasons) for fun because it exploits the fact that I'm a dumpy mid-fifties woman with greying hair, invisible to most. I'm nowhere near these folks' level, but I've won a few small tournaments and make money at it. I refuse to play with friends (don't want to take their money), but I have to say, there's nothing more fun that wiping out some Oakleys-and-hoodie wearing bro's stack.

Hey, you, you're fuckin' awesome!
posted by atoxyl at 2:23 PM on October 8, 2015 [2 favorites]

Aw, thanks, atoxyl!
posted by carmicha at 2:28 PM on October 8, 2015

I have to say, there's nothing more fun that wiping out some Oakleys-and-hoodie wearing bro's stack.

All-in on that!
posted by sixpack at 3:12 PM on October 8, 2015

>does last man standing imply that there are women still playing?

No. It's definitely one of those sexist phrases where "man" substitutes as "person".
posted by zug at 4:49 PM on October 8, 2015