The Death and Life of the Great British Pub
October 13, 2015 4:08 AM Subscribe
Counting the closures of rural inns, high-street noise boxes, sticky-carpet boozers of the backstreets, it can be said that roughly 30 pubs shut every week in the UK; a rate of decline that, as one group of worried analysts has calculated, would mean total elimination of the British pub by the 2040s.[sl longform grauniad]
The massive number of pubs in Britain, something between 50,000 and 60,000, is credited by some to the Black Death. Plague-struck, the 14th-century Britons who had not been annihilated were left in an emptier land, earning higher wages, perhaps better inclined to enjoy themselves. They spent more time and money than ever before in purpose-built taverns or private residences that would sell them drink. Some 700 years later, the pubs themselves have contracted a form of plague. Call it the Black Development.
The massive number of pubs in Britain, something between 50,000 and 60,000, is credited by some to the Black Death. Plague-struck, the 14th-century Britons who had not been annihilated were left in an emptier land, earning higher wages, perhaps better inclined to enjoy themselves. They spent more time and money than ever before in purpose-built taverns or private residences that would sell them drink. Some 700 years later, the pubs themselves have contracted a form of plague. Call it the Black Development.
Call it the Black Development.
There are interesting parallels with Thomas Piketty's attribution of post-WW2 affluence and egalitarianism to the massive destruction of hoarded wealth in the two world wars. Which brings us to the uncomfortable suggestion that perhaps humanity needs periodic catastrophes to make progress.
posted by acb at 4:11 AM on October 13, 2015 [11 favorites]
There are interesting parallels with Thomas Piketty's attribution of post-WW2 affluence and egalitarianism to the massive destruction of hoarded wealth in the two world wars. Which brings us to the uncomfortable suggestion that perhaps humanity needs periodic catastrophes to make progress.
posted by acb at 4:11 AM on October 13, 2015 [11 favorites]
Although this is happening across the UK, the vehemence of it in London is another symptom of the city's housing crisis. Building numbers haven't been this low since WWII. Foreign capital is squatting at the top end using properties as investments. The Boomers are squatting in their empty five-bed nests in the suburbs (this is deeply toxic but little talked about).
Combine it all and you have a recipe for spiralling prices and deeply skewed incentives for mercenary developers like the odious Anthony Stark and co. And the government's godawful starter home plans will, like all their other moves (stamp duty and inheritance tax cuts) will only make it worse.
posted by bonaldi at 4:20 AM on October 13, 2015 [4 favorites]
Combine it all and you have a recipe for spiralling prices and deeply skewed incentives for mercenary developers like the odious Anthony Stark and co. And the government's godawful starter home plans will, like all their other moves (stamp duty and inheritance tax cuts) will only make it worse.
posted by bonaldi at 4:20 AM on October 13, 2015 [4 favorites]
There is an interesting report from late 2014 arguing that taxation and the smoking ban (its from the Institute of Economic Affairs and is not their first report to criticise taxation, shall we say) added considerably to problems and the role of the economic slump, but that cultural changes have seen the number of boozers per capita decline over a very long period. Some good data analysis, worth a look
posted by biffa at 4:22 AM on October 13, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by biffa at 4:22 AM on October 13, 2015 [2 favorites]
Fortunately, my favourite pub (a bit of a gem in very central London) has a leasehold so larded about with complex covenants and restrictions that the brewery cannot sell it for redevelopment. Everything around it has been pulled down and turned into glassy offices and chain hotels, and excruciatingly overpriced student accommodation, but it sails on in its 19th century rickety glory.
On the other hand, the last landlord went bankrupt. He certainly blamed the smoking ban, but also the redevelopment around the building took a huge chunk of clientèle away - plus, nobody goes to the pub at lunchtime any more (except Fridays). A lot of his business used to come from old-school IT workers who managed a large data centre next door and a big telephone exchange nearby, and both those got completely depopulated.
On the other other hand, the thundering phenomenon of Wetherspoons is still going strong, through canny location management and decent prices. They're all a bit howya-doin', but their dedication to proper beer has earned them my appreciation. And at least three pubs around here have escaped redevelopment through local action, with community support for buy-outs, again on the back of reasonable (for London) prices and not going down the commodity lager route.
The figures are dire, but the war's not lost.
Not while I have my liver, it isn't.
posted by Devonian at 4:35 AM on October 13, 2015 [8 favorites]
On the other hand, the last landlord went bankrupt. He certainly blamed the smoking ban, but also the redevelopment around the building took a huge chunk of clientèle away - plus, nobody goes to the pub at lunchtime any more (except Fridays). A lot of his business used to come from old-school IT workers who managed a large data centre next door and a big telephone exchange nearby, and both those got completely depopulated.
On the other other hand, the thundering phenomenon of Wetherspoons is still going strong, through canny location management and decent prices. They're all a bit howya-doin', but their dedication to proper beer has earned them my appreciation. And at least three pubs around here have escaped redevelopment through local action, with community support for buy-outs, again on the back of reasonable (for London) prices and not going down the commodity lager route.
The figures are dire, but the war's not lost.
Not while I have my liver, it isn't.
posted by Devonian at 4:35 AM on October 13, 2015 [8 favorites]
a rate of decline that, as one group of worried analysts has calculated, would mean total elimination of the British pub by the 2040s
I'm going to be a good boy and go read TFA now, but I hope this conclusion is drawn from something a little more sophisticated than a linear or even exponential extrapolation of the current rate. Surely as pubs become fewer, the situation changes for the ones that remain.
posted by Dr Dracator at 4:38 AM on October 13, 2015 [8 favorites]
I'm going to be a good boy and go read TFA now, but I hope this conclusion is drawn from something a little more sophisticated than a linear or even exponential extrapolation of the current rate. Surely as pubs become fewer, the situation changes for the ones that remain.
posted by Dr Dracator at 4:38 AM on October 13, 2015 [8 favorites]
And the government's godawful starter home plans will, like all their other moves (stamp duty and inheritance tax cuts) will only make it worse.
Tories to build thousands of affordable second homes.
posted by acb at 4:39 AM on October 13, 2015 [8 favorites]
Tories to build thousands of affordable second homes.
posted by acb at 4:39 AM on October 13, 2015 [8 favorites]
Saddest of all, to my mind, is seeing a mini-supermarket occupying the shell of what was once a perfectly good pub like some grotesque hermit crab.
posted by misteraitch at 4:41 AM on October 13, 2015 [9 favorites]
posted by misteraitch at 4:41 AM on October 13, 2015 [9 favorites]
Not just the UK. The bistrots in France are disappearing too: from 500,000 in the early 1900s to 200,000 in the 1960s, down to 35,000 today. 6000 closed between 2003 and 2011, about 14 per week. Some blame the smoking ban of 2007, but the decline started well before the ban. Customer habits change and people are just less interested in going to the local pub/bistrot to drink and chat (source).
posted by elgilito at 4:50 AM on October 13, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by elgilito at 4:50 AM on October 13, 2015 [1 favorite]
I'm not a big drinker, but it's always sad to see history going down the drain.
Then again, today saw news of a £68bn deal between SABMiller and AB InBev, "one of the top five deals in corporate history". It will mean that one third of the world's beers are made by one massive conglomerate.
Are these facts unrelated? Most drinking gets done in bars and clubs, not pubs. Most of it is mass produced swill. Local ale pubs can't compete with that.
Craft beer is on the up, though - the pubs I still frequent have massive ranges of independently produced ales from all over the world. They are thriving as far as I can tell.
I don't know, maybe quality over quantity is a good thing? Like I say, I don't go to pubs often, I haven't had a "local" for ten years. But those tens of thousands of pubs are somebodies' local, a place they meet and socialise, part of what ties communities together.
On the other hand, many bars are propped up by local alcoholics. I'm not going to get too upset about those.
I dunno. We try to preserve our history, but it seems history has little interest in preserving us. It carries on regardless.
posted by Acey at 4:57 AM on October 13, 2015 [2 favorites]
Then again, today saw news of a £68bn deal between SABMiller and AB InBev, "one of the top five deals in corporate history". It will mean that one third of the world's beers are made by one massive conglomerate.
Are these facts unrelated? Most drinking gets done in bars and clubs, not pubs. Most of it is mass produced swill. Local ale pubs can't compete with that.
Craft beer is on the up, though - the pubs I still frequent have massive ranges of independently produced ales from all over the world. They are thriving as far as I can tell.
I don't know, maybe quality over quantity is a good thing? Like I say, I don't go to pubs often, I haven't had a "local" for ten years. But those tens of thousands of pubs are somebodies' local, a place they meet and socialise, part of what ties communities together.
On the other hand, many bars are propped up by local alcoholics. I'm not going to get too upset about those.
I dunno. We try to preserve our history, but it seems history has little interest in preserving us. It carries on regardless.
posted by Acey at 4:57 AM on October 13, 2015 [2 favorites]
Customer habits change and people are just less interested in going to the local pub/bistrot to drink and chat.
Welcome to the desert of social life under an increasingly relentless market economy.
posted by leotrotsky at 5:00 AM on October 13, 2015 [12 favorites]
Welcome to the desert of social life under an increasingly relentless market economy.
posted by leotrotsky at 5:00 AM on October 13, 2015 [12 favorites]
I've mostly come to dislike the Wetherspoon's version of pubs, which seems to be something a lot of boozers are keen to adopt. I suppose it's because they all feel the same.
A friend of mine in Stoke Newington lost his local to a developer. When I was last in the UK, I was pleased to learn about and discover the micropub, which seems to be some landlords' response to massive corporate pubs. I'd love for them to keep on growing because if anything, they tend to feel like those old boozers but with better beer.
posted by Kitteh at 5:02 AM on October 13, 2015 [1 favorite]
A friend of mine in Stoke Newington lost his local to a developer. When I was last in the UK, I was pleased to learn about and discover the micropub, which seems to be some landlords' response to massive corporate pubs. I'd love for them to keep on growing because if anything, they tend to feel like those old boozers but with better beer.
posted by Kitteh at 5:02 AM on October 13, 2015 [1 favorite]
It seems ironic that pubs are vanishing at a point where we have more breweries than ever.
The article mentions the pubco habit of locking in a landlord as their monopoly supplier and then over-charging them for beer. It does not mention the associated tactic of providing cheap loans to landlords as a bid to keep hold of them. The shittiest pubcos seem to have had a particular affinity with the shittiest property developers, in mane cases.
posted by rongorongo at 5:02 AM on October 13, 2015
The article mentions the pubco habit of locking in a landlord as their monopoly supplier and then over-charging them for beer. It does not mention the associated tactic of providing cheap loans to landlords as a bid to keep hold of them. The shittiest pubcos seem to have had a particular affinity with the shittiest property developers, in mane cases.
posted by rongorongo at 5:02 AM on October 13, 2015
Iron Man can be such an asshole.
posted by Dr Dracator at 5:05 AM on October 13, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by Dr Dracator at 5:05 AM on October 13, 2015 [2 favorites]
Pubs are so expensive that I see little groups of young men (mostly builders) standing on the street drinking cans after work now. It's £5.20 a pint in my local.
posted by colie at 5:05 AM on October 13, 2015 [5 favorites]
posted by colie at 5:05 AM on October 13, 2015 [5 favorites]
I'm going to be a good boy and go read TFA now, but I hope this conclusion is drawn from something a little more sophisticated than a linear or even exponential extrapolation of the current rate. Surely as pubs become fewer, the situation changes for the ones that remain.
Sadly, no, it goes downhill from there — the rest of the article is taken up with speculation about what a "negative pub" could be and what shape it might take.
posted by indubitable at 5:10 AM on October 13, 2015 [15 favorites]
Sadly, no, it goes downhill from there — the rest of the article is taken up with speculation about what a "negative pub" could be and what shape it might take.
posted by indubitable at 5:10 AM on October 13, 2015 [15 favorites]
On the other hand, many bars are propped up by local alcoholics.
I don't go out drinking all that often, but I've wondered about the large percentage of revenues that must come from a fairly small percent of the regular clientele. Are people in the UK simply drinking less overall, or are they drinking less in pubs and more at home?
The business arrangements in the article, though, sound very convoluted to me, very different than how the local bars I know here operate. The pubs they are describing are more like franchises, where the pub operators have the businesses bought and sold under them with distribution requirements going with those sales. Here a bar might rent from a landlord, but the distribution and business side is fully their own -- the landlord can evict them, but can't otherwise take over the business. Understanding that additional layer helps explain how so many pubs are shutting down, and this is an interesting article.
the majority were remade as restaurants, cafes, minimarkets, community centres, flats (lots of flats), betting shops, loan shops, estate agents
I understand how a four story building could be worth a lot more broken up into flats, but most of the other uses surprised me -- are rents to estate agents or community centers really higher than to pubs?
posted by Dip Flash at 5:21 AM on October 13, 2015
I don't go out drinking all that often, but I've wondered about the large percentage of revenues that must come from a fairly small percent of the regular clientele. Are people in the UK simply drinking less overall, or are they drinking less in pubs and more at home?
The business arrangements in the article, though, sound very convoluted to me, very different than how the local bars I know here operate. The pubs they are describing are more like franchises, where the pub operators have the businesses bought and sold under them with distribution requirements going with those sales. Here a bar might rent from a landlord, but the distribution and business side is fully their own -- the landlord can evict them, but can't otherwise take over the business. Understanding that additional layer helps explain how so many pubs are shutting down, and this is an interesting article.
the majority were remade as restaurants, cafes, minimarkets, community centres, flats (lots of flats), betting shops, loan shops, estate agents
I understand how a four story building could be worth a lot more broken up into flats, but most of the other uses surprised me -- are rents to estate agents or community centers really higher than to pubs?
posted by Dip Flash at 5:21 AM on October 13, 2015
would mean total elimination of the British pub by the 2040s.
"Last orders, please!"
posted by octobersurprise at 5:25 AM on October 13, 2015 [4 favorites]
"Last orders, please!"
posted by octobersurprise at 5:25 AM on October 13, 2015 [4 favorites]
the large percentage of revenues that must come from a fairly small percent of the regular clientele
This is how the whole alcoholic beverage industry works. Most people don't drink like hundreds of beers a month.
posted by thelonius at 5:26 AM on October 13, 2015 [2 favorites]
This is how the whole alcoholic beverage industry works. Most people don't drink like hundreds of beers a month.
posted by thelonius at 5:26 AM on October 13, 2015 [2 favorites]
When the zombies come, the pubs will be needed.
posted by delfin at 5:26 AM on October 13, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by delfin at 5:26 AM on October 13, 2015 [1 favorite]
When the zombies come, the pubs will be needed.
oh for an img tag
posted by ellieBOA at 5:31 AM on October 13, 2015 [1 favorite]
oh for an img tag
posted by ellieBOA at 5:31 AM on October 13, 2015 [1 favorite]
Most people don't drink like hundreds of beers a month..
"When the world is too dark
And I need the light inside of me
I'll walk into a bar
And drink fifteen pints of beer"
But I don't believe a large percentage of revenues come from a small percent of the regular clientele - Shane McGowan excepted - rather a large percentage of revenues comes from the regular clientele.
As there are fewer regular clientele, pubs become an inefficient use of real estate. Blame the developers if you want, I think I'll blame the lack of customers.
posted by three blind mice at 5:37 AM on October 13, 2015 [1 favorite]
"When the world is too dark
And I need the light inside of me
I'll walk into a bar
And drink fifteen pints of beer"
But I don't believe a large percentage of revenues come from a small percent of the regular clientele - Shane McGowan excepted - rather a large percentage of revenues comes from the regular clientele.
As there are fewer regular clientele, pubs become an inefficient use of real estate. Blame the developers if you want, I think I'll blame the lack of customers.
posted by three blind mice at 5:37 AM on October 13, 2015 [1 favorite]
I'm going to be a good boy and go read TFA now, but I hope this conclusion is drawn from something a little more sophisticated than a linear or even exponential extrapolation of the current rate. Surely as pubs become fewer, the situation changes for the ones that remain.
The report I link to above suggests some caution is needed with the closure stats, there is apparently an issue with a pub counting as closed if one of the big pubcos sells it to an independent, even if it is a straight transfer and the pub is never shut. That report says 21,000 closures since 1980, half of which were after 2006. Serious but not at the 50,000-60,000 range. Also, the author doesn't go for the linear extrapolation.
Are these facts unrelated? Most drinking gets done in bars and clubs, not pubs. Most of it is mass produced swill. Local ale pubs can't compete with that.
I live in a town in Cornwall, so less urban than you, but this picture seems pretty alien to my experience of the last decade. There are struggling pubs here and most do food if they can now, but they are definitely the drinking hole of choice here in comparison with bars and clubs. (My understanding was that clubs are also under the cosh nationally, something reflected in 2 out of 3 clubs shutting here; this report says nationally 50% have shut in ten years.) There are some good bars here but county wide the accent is on pubs, and there is a good variety of real ales in virtually all pubs, as well as lagers and ciders. I'm not sure why the drinking culture is so different here, there are a lot of small breweries in the county and these have been growing since the downturn, presumably as people look to be self employed. My first guess might have been demographics but the county has actually been shifting younger in the last decade.
posted by biffa at 5:38 AM on October 13, 2015
The report I link to above suggests some caution is needed with the closure stats, there is apparently an issue with a pub counting as closed if one of the big pubcos sells it to an independent, even if it is a straight transfer and the pub is never shut. That report says 21,000 closures since 1980, half of which were after 2006. Serious but not at the 50,000-60,000 range. Also, the author doesn't go for the linear extrapolation.
Are these facts unrelated? Most drinking gets done in bars and clubs, not pubs. Most of it is mass produced swill. Local ale pubs can't compete with that.
I live in a town in Cornwall, so less urban than you, but this picture seems pretty alien to my experience of the last decade. There are struggling pubs here and most do food if they can now, but they are definitely the drinking hole of choice here in comparison with bars and clubs. (My understanding was that clubs are also under the cosh nationally, something reflected in 2 out of 3 clubs shutting here; this report says nationally 50% have shut in ten years.) There are some good bars here but county wide the accent is on pubs, and there is a good variety of real ales in virtually all pubs, as well as lagers and ciders. I'm not sure why the drinking culture is so different here, there are a lot of small breweries in the county and these have been growing since the downturn, presumably as people look to be self employed. My first guess might have been demographics but the county has actually been shifting younger in the last decade.
posted by biffa at 5:38 AM on October 13, 2015
Yeah, I have no idea if what I said is correct, and I am in a city so it's a bit different. Britain still has a big drinking problem though, whichever way you slice it. I can't imagine there's a shortage of customers. But I'd guess most probably buy their booze in the supermarket for a quarter of the price.
posted by Acey at 5:51 AM on October 13, 2015
posted by Acey at 5:51 AM on October 13, 2015
Can you elaborate on what you mean when you talk about pubs vs bars? I'm Irish and we don't really have a clear distinction. Traditionally a bar is a section of a larger pub (as opposed to the lounge or any food areas with set tables). A pub that has a license to serve later is always called a late bar rather than a late pub for some reason, although many of the larger examples of these were called superpubs a few years ago. I've heard of ones with more of a food focus being called a cafe bar, although they're more rarely called gastropubs too.
posted by kersplunk at 5:54 AM on October 13, 2015
posted by kersplunk at 5:54 AM on October 13, 2015
I'm using bar/club to mean loud music, late opening, city centre type stuff. Pubs being quieter, maybe serving food, and being more amenable to conversation.
Come to think of it, I bet the fact that many sporting events can be seen at home or streamed illegally is another factor - didn't people used to depend on pubs for watching sports on TV?
posted by Acey at 5:59 AM on October 13, 2015
Come to think of it, I bet the fact that many sporting events can be seen at home or streamed illegally is another factor - didn't people used to depend on pubs for watching sports on TV?
posted by Acey at 5:59 AM on October 13, 2015
This article is problematic.
The UK was over pubbed. Pub counts were flat from 2008-2012 - the heart of the financial crisis. Pub count in general is down over the last 30 years. The decline from 1982 to 2002 was almost the same as the decline from 2002 to 2014.
Today the UK at 50k pubs on a population of 65 million so a bit more than 1000 people per pub. To put that in context New York State has about 5000 people per bar - that's slightly more than the median for the US.
Pubs served a social role that no longer exists. There are just too many of them today.
posted by JPD at 6:02 AM on October 13, 2015 [5 favorites]
The UK was over pubbed. Pub counts were flat from 2008-2012 - the heart of the financial crisis. Pub count in general is down over the last 30 years. The decline from 1982 to 2002 was almost the same as the decline from 2002 to 2014.
Today the UK at 50k pubs on a population of 65 million so a bit more than 1000 people per pub. To put that in context New York State has about 5000 people per bar - that's slightly more than the median for the US.
Pubs served a social role that no longer exists. There are just too many of them today.
posted by JPD at 6:02 AM on October 13, 2015 [5 favorites]
would mean total elimination of the British pub by the 2040s.
"Last orders, please!"
This is an outrage, last orders isn't until 2300!
posted by EndsOfInvention at 6:04 AM on October 13, 2015 [25 favorites]
"Last orders, please!"
This is an outrage, last orders isn't until 2300!
posted by EndsOfInvention at 6:04 AM on October 13, 2015 [25 favorites]
Meanwhile across the pond, our National Trust promotes preservation of historic bars.
the large percentage of revenues that must come from a fairly small percent of the regular clientele.
Yep, this is true. It is not the occasional, once-a-week regulars that keep a place like this in business. I had recalled hearing a stat once for the US that 5% of the population consumes 95% of the alcohol. I tried to find it, and found this chart of average number of drinks per capita per week instead, which breaks it down another way, but should be enlightening as to rates of consumption spread across the population. In other words, bars don't stay in business because of the middle 30 per cent.
I know rates are different in the UK but I think this sort of analysis helps make sense of how the marketplace behaves.
posted by Miko at 6:06 AM on October 13, 2015 [1 favorite]
the large percentage of revenues that must come from a fairly small percent of the regular clientele.
Yep, this is true. It is not the occasional, once-a-week regulars that keep a place like this in business. I had recalled hearing a stat once for the US that 5% of the population consumes 95% of the alcohol. I tried to find it, and found this chart of average number of drinks per capita per week instead, which breaks it down another way, but should be enlightening as to rates of consumption spread across the population. In other words, bars don't stay in business because of the middle 30 per cent.
I know rates are different in the UK but I think this sort of analysis helps make sense of how the marketplace behaves.
posted by Miko at 6:06 AM on October 13, 2015 [1 favorite]
additionally on premise/on site beer consumption has declined about 40% in the UK since 2000, while pub count is only down about 14%. Granted some of that beer decline has been subbed with spirits so its not true like-like.
Also don't discount the importance of using the tied partners balance sheet as an inefficient way to drive beer volumes - that's ended now. Kept a lot of pubs that should have never been opened in business.
posted by JPD at 6:06 AM on October 13, 2015
Also don't discount the importance of using the tied partners balance sheet as an inefficient way to drive beer volumes - that's ended now. Kept a lot of pubs that should have never been opened in business.
posted by JPD at 6:06 AM on October 13, 2015
What's the situation elsewhere? Is there no longer a Kneipe on every corner in Germany? How are bars in American towns holding up? Is the Japanese izakaya in fighting shape?
posted by acb at 6:11 AM on October 13, 2015
posted by acb at 6:11 AM on October 13, 2015
Bars in the developed world are in decline. Less alcohol consumption, more of it done in the home, more entertainment options as well.
posted by JPD at 6:14 AM on October 13, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by JPD at 6:14 AM on October 13, 2015 [2 favorites]
A Wetherspoons is not a pub.
posted by Artw at 6:14 AM on October 13, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by Artw at 6:14 AM on October 13, 2015 [3 favorites]
Can you elaborate on what you mean when you talk about pubs vs bars?
I'd say:
Pub - open all day, serves food, specifically whole meals (not just snacks/tapas type stuff), more open plan with normal tables and chairs/stools, may have outdoor tables if there's space, serves beer and spirits, might specialise in high-quality/local/speciality beers, maybe have some cocktails. You might go there for drinks or equally to have lunch with your family.
Bar - only open late afternoon/evening, often open later than pubs, maybe serves food but probably just snacks not whole meals, any outdoor space is just for smoking not sitting in the sun, if there's seating it's booths and/or bar stools at high tables, likely to serve or specialise in cocktails in additional to beer & spirits, often loud music in the evenings (although pubs might have that too if they are trying to cultivate a more bar-y vibe in the evenings). You'd only go there specifically for drinks, not for a meal or with your kids.
posted by EndsOfInvention at 6:15 AM on October 13, 2015 [1 favorite]
I'd say:
Pub - open all day, serves food, specifically whole meals (not just snacks/tapas type stuff), more open plan with normal tables and chairs/stools, may have outdoor tables if there's space, serves beer and spirits, might specialise in high-quality/local/speciality beers, maybe have some cocktails. You might go there for drinks or equally to have lunch with your family.
Bar - only open late afternoon/evening, often open later than pubs, maybe serves food but probably just snacks not whole meals, any outdoor space is just for smoking not sitting in the sun, if there's seating it's booths and/or bar stools at high tables, likely to serve or specialise in cocktails in additional to beer & spirits, often loud music in the evenings (although pubs might have that too if they are trying to cultivate a more bar-y vibe in the evenings). You'd only go there specifically for drinks, not for a meal or with your kids.
posted by EndsOfInvention at 6:15 AM on October 13, 2015 [1 favorite]
Can anyone explain what an "eyelash-shaped bar" is?
posted by cardboard at 6:16 AM on October 13, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by cardboard at 6:16 AM on October 13, 2015 [1 favorite]
Are people in the UK simply drinking less overall, or are they drinking less in pubs and more at home?
Anecdotally, it seems that younger people are drinking less. (Perhaps that has to do with work and recreation being more cognitively demanding in the computer age, or just a health-consciousness.) There'd also be an effect from some traditionally working-class areas being home mainly to ethnic groups who don't drink alcohol socially, or don't do so in pubs, meaning that demand for pubs in those areas declines steeply.
posted by acb at 6:18 AM on October 13, 2015 [1 favorite]
Anecdotally, it seems that younger people are drinking less. (Perhaps that has to do with work and recreation being more cognitively demanding in the computer age, or just a health-consciousness.) There'd also be an effect from some traditionally working-class areas being home mainly to ethnic groups who don't drink alcohol socially, or don't do so in pubs, meaning that demand for pubs in those areas declines steeply.
posted by acb at 6:18 AM on October 13, 2015 [1 favorite]
I had recalled hearing a stat once for the US that 5% of the population consumes 95% of the alcohol.
It's a small consolation for not being part of the 1%.
posted by octobersurprise at 6:26 AM on October 13, 2015 [4 favorites]
It's a small consolation for not being part of the 1%.
posted by octobersurprise at 6:26 AM on October 13, 2015 [4 favorites]
Food in pubs is a bit of a late 90s phenomena - prior to that it was mostly Walkers crisps, dry roasted peanuts and pork scratchings.
posted by Artw at 6:27 AM on October 13, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by Artw at 6:27 AM on October 13, 2015 [1 favorite]
Most people don't drink like hundreds of beers a month.
*Counts on fingers and toes* ... Good, not hundreds then, no.
5% of the population consumes 95% of the alcohol
Not a fair statistic as it clearly blames the hard-working for the laziness of the slackers.
Is the Japanese izakaya in fighting shape?
I don't have figures to hand, only anecdata. But the situation here is complicated by the "lost two generations" -- deflation and general economic malaise since the bursting of the bubble. That said, the lion's share of the drinking here remains social, and that keeps the izakaya trade booming (relatively).
posted by oheso at 6:29 AM on October 13, 2015
*Counts on fingers and toes* ... Good, not hundreds then, no.
5% of the population consumes 95% of the alcohol
Not a fair statistic as it clearly blames the hard-working for the laziness of the slackers.
Is the Japanese izakaya in fighting shape?
I don't have figures to hand, only anecdata. But the situation here is complicated by the "lost two generations" -- deflation and general economic malaise since the bursting of the bubble. That said, the lion's share of the drinking here remains social, and that keeps the izakaya trade booming (relatively).
posted by oheso at 6:29 AM on October 13, 2015
How are bars in American towns holding up?
I don't have any statistics but anecdotally, it seems like all of the smoky dark "old man bars" are giving way to hipster bars, brew pubs, cocktail bars, etc.
posted by octothorpe at 6:32 AM on October 13, 2015 [1 favorite]
I don't have any statistics but anecdotally, it seems like all of the smoky dark "old man bars" are giving way to hipster bars, brew pubs, cocktail bars, etc.
posted by octothorpe at 6:32 AM on October 13, 2015 [1 favorite]
Plus izakaya are definitely about the food in addition to the alcohol. "Bar & Grill", we used to call them in the States, although I feel fairly sure most of them were not a patch on the typical izakaya.
posted by oheso at 6:37 AM on October 13, 2015
posted by oheso at 6:37 AM on October 13, 2015
There's a theory that stricter drink-driving laws are also to blame, especially in the case of rural pubs. A lot of countryside pubs have tried converting to fairly expensive gastropubs to survive on food trade as the drinking trade dries up. Which then puts them into something of a pub in name only category.
On the other hand, the local in our village seems to be bucking the trend. They tried going gastropub for a while, and nearly went out of business. About a year ago, they brought in a new chef who went back to simple, good, reasonably priced food, and re-made the place back into the community living room. Now, business is booming with locals who wanted a place to go in the evenings for a bite and a drink.
posted by penguinicity at 6:38 AM on October 13, 2015 [1 favorite]
On the other hand, the local in our village seems to be bucking the trend. They tried going gastropub for a while, and nearly went out of business. About a year ago, they brought in a new chef who went back to simple, good, reasonably priced food, and re-made the place back into the community living room. Now, business is booming with locals who wanted a place to go in the evenings for a bite and a drink.
posted by penguinicity at 6:38 AM on October 13, 2015 [1 favorite]
I thought british pubs were doing so well that they were commercially viable as cookie-cutter franchises all over the world? Wait, those are irish pubs.
posted by reiichiroh at 6:44 AM on October 13, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by reiichiroh at 6:44 AM on October 13, 2015 [1 favorite]
Food in pubs is a bit of a late 90s phenomena - prior to that it was mostly Walkers crisps, dry roasted peanuts and pork scratchings.
The joys of fishing around in a jar of murky brine for a pickled egg! Of course now we have the Manchester Egg, which is a sort of gentrified panko-breadcrumbed version which maintains the essential unwholesomeness of the original.
posted by sobarel at 6:46 AM on October 13, 2015 [1 favorite]
The joys of fishing around in a jar of murky brine for a pickled egg! Of course now we have the Manchester Egg, which is a sort of gentrified panko-breadcrumbed version which maintains the essential unwholesomeness of the original.
posted by sobarel at 6:46 AM on October 13, 2015 [1 favorite]
MetaFilter: a sort of gentrified panko-breadcrumbed version which maintains the essential unwholesomeness of the original.
posted by oheso at 6:48 AM on October 13, 2015 [9 favorites]
posted by oheso at 6:48 AM on October 13, 2015 [9 favorites]
Complicated feelings time!
I live in Edinburgh, in Scotland. We've got a lot of drinking establishments per capita, but even so absolute numbers are well down on what they were thirty or forty years ago.
Five years ago I moved into an area on the edge of the city's New Town, where it blends gently into tenement buildings that segue down into the sandstone buildings that make up most of Leith and North Edinburgh. It's the definition of a gentrifying area - a cheaper fringe to an upmarket part of town where middle-income bods like me can be relatively close to the centre of town without paying the eye-bleeding rents/mortgages of the centre itself.
That said, when I moved in, the area still had the last vestiges of its original, far more working class background very visible, most obviously in the form of three pubs within a literal stone's throw of each other. All three were proper boozers, although all three were feeling the effects of the smoking ban, the necessity of big screen TVs for sports coverage and a limited selection of mostly crap beer. All three were, not coincidentally, dying on their arses, propped up by a tiny group of regulars and a bit of trade from the shift workers at the local supermarket. But they were clearly struggling badly. I would drink in all three, but rarely. The beer wasn't great or cheap enough to make up for the fact it wasn't great, the TVs were loud and annoying and the regulars sat and nursed pints and stared at anyone who came in. So I drank elsewhere.
Fast-forward five years and my area has become gentrified almost beyond recognition. The crumbling row of shops down by the river has become an organic grocery store and cafe. The failed hairdressers is an artisan marshmallow shop. And two of the three boozers have been ripped out and turned into gastropubs. In one particularly stark example of the ravages of redevelopment, they literally ripped the walls out of the pub next door to us and put in big folding doors so people can sit with them open when it's sunny.
Here's the complicated feelings bit. I go to all three pubs still, but I go to the two new 'bars that do food' a lot more. As do all of my neighbours. All three pubs are now thriving. The market changed in the area and now that there are pubs serving the market that actually lived here (people who want food and more beer options than Tennents, Carling and 80 Shilling), they're rammed every night of the week and all weekend as well. Plus the regulars from the two bars closest to me all decamped to the surviving boozer a block down, saving it from a slow death. It's even repainted and is looking quite healthy.
So... on the face of it, a success story. Three living pubs where there were once three near-death ones. They could have all become estate agent offices or Sainsbury's Metros or what have you. So far as these things go, it could be a lot worse. But they're not 'pubs' anymore, really. Buy a couple of burgers and a couple of pints and you won't come out of there with much change out of forty quid. And everyone in there is staring at Instagram half the time. I started socialising and drinking pre-Internet and I can't help but feel that it's one of the biggest drivers of changes in our uses of social space. And I'm really not sure I like it. If all a pub is for is a once-a-month backdrop for your Facebook updates, then it's bound to change and probably not for the better.
posted by Happy Dave at 6:50 AM on October 13, 2015 [12 favorites]
I live in Edinburgh, in Scotland. We've got a lot of drinking establishments per capita, but even so absolute numbers are well down on what they were thirty or forty years ago.
Five years ago I moved into an area on the edge of the city's New Town, where it blends gently into tenement buildings that segue down into the sandstone buildings that make up most of Leith and North Edinburgh. It's the definition of a gentrifying area - a cheaper fringe to an upmarket part of town where middle-income bods like me can be relatively close to the centre of town without paying the eye-bleeding rents/mortgages of the centre itself.
That said, when I moved in, the area still had the last vestiges of its original, far more working class background very visible, most obviously in the form of three pubs within a literal stone's throw of each other. All three were proper boozers, although all three were feeling the effects of the smoking ban, the necessity of big screen TVs for sports coverage and a limited selection of mostly crap beer. All three were, not coincidentally, dying on their arses, propped up by a tiny group of regulars and a bit of trade from the shift workers at the local supermarket. But they were clearly struggling badly. I would drink in all three, but rarely. The beer wasn't great or cheap enough to make up for the fact it wasn't great, the TVs were loud and annoying and the regulars sat and nursed pints and stared at anyone who came in. So I drank elsewhere.
Fast-forward five years and my area has become gentrified almost beyond recognition. The crumbling row of shops down by the river has become an organic grocery store and cafe. The failed hairdressers is an artisan marshmallow shop. And two of the three boozers have been ripped out and turned into gastropubs. In one particularly stark example of the ravages of redevelopment, they literally ripped the walls out of the pub next door to us and put in big folding doors so people can sit with them open when it's sunny.
Here's the complicated feelings bit. I go to all three pubs still, but I go to the two new 'bars that do food' a lot more. As do all of my neighbours. All three pubs are now thriving. The market changed in the area and now that there are pubs serving the market that actually lived here (people who want food and more beer options than Tennents, Carling and 80 Shilling), they're rammed every night of the week and all weekend as well. Plus the regulars from the two bars closest to me all decamped to the surviving boozer a block down, saving it from a slow death. It's even repainted and is looking quite healthy.
So... on the face of it, a success story. Three living pubs where there were once three near-death ones. They could have all become estate agent offices or Sainsbury's Metros or what have you. So far as these things go, it could be a lot worse. But they're not 'pubs' anymore, really. Buy a couple of burgers and a couple of pints and you won't come out of there with much change out of forty quid. And everyone in there is staring at Instagram half the time. I started socialising and drinking pre-Internet and I can't help but feel that it's one of the biggest drivers of changes in our uses of social space. And I'm really not sure I like it. If all a pub is for is a once-a-month backdrop for your Facebook updates, then it's bound to change and probably not for the better.
posted by Happy Dave at 6:50 AM on October 13, 2015 [12 favorites]
One interesting phenomenon in the UK has been the introduction of community owned pubs. Getting a pub listed as an Asset of Community Value can help protect it from ending up as flats but communities can go a step further and actually take it over in some circumstances.
posted by biffa at 6:50 AM on October 13, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by biffa at 6:50 AM on October 13, 2015 [3 favorites]
"Irish pubs" are a British invention (which have been imported back to some bits of Ireland). Real Irish pubs are a lot more functional...
posted by Devonian at 6:50 AM on October 13, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by Devonian at 6:50 AM on October 13, 2015 [1 favorite]
I thought they'd all moved overseas- to beach towns where brits have their time-shares.
"Wake up Maggie, I think I got somethin' to say to you...". Eeerrg.
posted by bonobothegreat at 6:53 AM on October 13, 2015
"Wake up Maggie, I think I got somethin' to say to you...". Eeerrg.
posted by bonobothegreat at 6:53 AM on October 13, 2015
I'd also be willing to bet overall that if you mapped productivity gains vs wages onto pub attendance, you'd see a major correlation. We're simply paid less, relative to the amount of work we do, than we were thirty years ago. The drinks are more expensive, sometimes eye-wateringly so. So with limited spending power and limited time, plus many, many cheaper options for socialising, why would you go to a pub that was 'just a pub', serving crap beer? Even in the 90s I can remember spending £20 was a major night out. Spending that now is 'Tuesday, two beers then home.'
Brits still drink, we just do it all in one night a week or a fortnight or a month, rather than a couple of pints after work every day of the week. Or we get swallied in the house.
posted by Happy Dave at 6:56 AM on October 13, 2015 [4 favorites]
Brits still drink, we just do it all in one night a week or a fortnight or a month, rather than a couple of pints after work every day of the week. Or we get swallied in the house.
posted by Happy Dave at 6:56 AM on October 13, 2015 [4 favorites]
one group of worried analysts
I'm going to go out on a limb, and say that this phrase likely occurs about a dozen times in every issue of every UK newspaper. It is a staggeringly British phrase.
posted by schmod at 6:58 AM on October 13, 2015 [7 favorites]
I'm going to go out on a limb, and say that this phrase likely occurs about a dozen times in every issue of every UK newspaper. It is a staggeringly British phrase.
posted by schmod at 6:58 AM on October 13, 2015 [7 favorites]
How are bars in American towns holding up?
My guess is that this might vary regionally. I've always lived in the South and if anything I'd say we're getting more bars (though mostly of the hipster/expensive type or chain bar and grills) but that's likely because a lot of people are moving here and historically we have not had many because of all the religious fundamentalism (we've still got dry counties in my state).
On the other hand, I wouldn't be surprised if more northern cities, particularly in the rust belt (which seems to me to have an awful lot of bars), might be seeing a reduction.
posted by ghharr at 7:11 AM on October 13, 2015 [1 favorite]
My guess is that this might vary regionally. I've always lived in the South and if anything I'd say we're getting more bars (though mostly of the hipster/expensive type or chain bar and grills) but that's likely because a lot of people are moving here and historically we have not had many because of all the religious fundamentalism (we've still got dry counties in my state).
On the other hand, I wouldn't be surprised if more northern cities, particularly in the rust belt (which seems to me to have an awful lot of bars), might be seeing a reduction.
posted by ghharr at 7:11 AM on October 13, 2015 [1 favorite]
I've always lived in the South and if anything I'd say we're getting more bars
Hell, they just opened a bar with a mechanical bull where I live
posted by thelonius at 7:14 AM on October 13, 2015
Hell, they just opened a bar with a mechanical bull where I live
posted by thelonius at 7:14 AM on October 13, 2015
It is a staggeringly British phrase.
Also: MeFi username material.
posted by acb at 7:15 AM on October 13, 2015 [4 favorites]
Also: MeFi username material.
posted by acb at 7:15 AM on October 13, 2015 [4 favorites]
It's a pity that you have to have large flat screen TVs, karaoke nights, fruit machines, and a proper menu to stay in business as a pub anymore (and even then, that's no guarantee), but it's the same over here too for bars.
But there is one bar here in Kingston I particularly love because it seems to be a very polished antidote to the usual bar; The Alibi is all dark wood and mirrors, cozy seating, big enough for a large group but intimate enough for a drink alone or with your significant other or friend. The beer list is carefully curated, they will even do some interesting cocktails if that's your thing, but the music is not overly obtrusive and there are no TVs. They don't serve food (hence, they can only open at 8 pm according to Ontario licencing laws) but don't mind if you bring in something to eat. It feels very...I dunno, nice to drink in. The prices are fair: not cheap enough for undergrads to get rowdy on the offerings, but inexpensive enough to keep them in the black.
I do wish they were open earlier but mostly because I love getting a pint after work before heading home. 8 pm on a weeknight is very hard to manage.
posted by Kitteh at 7:17 AM on October 13, 2015 [2 favorites]
But there is one bar here in Kingston I particularly love because it seems to be a very polished antidote to the usual bar; The Alibi is all dark wood and mirrors, cozy seating, big enough for a large group but intimate enough for a drink alone or with your significant other or friend. The beer list is carefully curated, they will even do some interesting cocktails if that's your thing, but the music is not overly obtrusive and there are no TVs. They don't serve food (hence, they can only open at 8 pm according to Ontario licencing laws) but don't mind if you bring in something to eat. It feels very...I dunno, nice to drink in. The prices are fair: not cheap enough for undergrads to get rowdy on the offerings, but inexpensive enough to keep them in the black.
I do wish they were open earlier but mostly because I love getting a pint after work before heading home. 8 pm on a weeknight is very hard to manage.
posted by Kitteh at 7:17 AM on October 13, 2015 [2 favorites]
I agree that in the US bars are doing fine except for "old man bars." The few I know a bit about face this situation: there's one owner running it as an independent business, carrying massive liability, and it's paid off but doesn't generate much profit, and the kids don't want it, and nobody wants to buy it unless it's to renovate it as a hipster place. So they end up closing when the owner dies/retires/gets too sick to manage it.
posted by Miko at 7:20 AM on October 13, 2015
posted by Miko at 7:20 AM on October 13, 2015
Can you elaborate on what you mean when you talk about pubs vs bars?
(Never thought I'd start a sentence on Metafilter with these words, but...) A viral facebook post I saw the other day summed it up well for me - it was a list of observations about Britain from a visiting American, who said "Pubs are not bars - they're communal living rooms."
I'm really sad to read about their decline, but having said that, I hardly go to the pub myself these days. I'd put it down to age, but maybe I'm part of a trend without realising it.
Also - really interesting to read your account, Happy Dave. I'm guessing from your description that's Canonmills? A mile to the east of that, there are attempts to gentrify the boozers on Leith Walk, but I get the impression they're having mixed results. The fancy tapas bar, which only sells one (Spanish) brand of beer and lots of wine and sherry (lawks!) is doing well. Further down, what used to be 'The Volley' (Volunteer Arms) of Trainspotting fame has been converted into a bare brick-walled bar serving artisan pork pies on slabs of wood, and is doing okayish. Further down still, another 'old man pub' has just reopened as Bar Brig, selling "scrumptious, locally sourced street eats" and seems permanently empty.
Plenty of the (slightly terrifying, to me) serious old locals still seem to be thriving, based entirely on a very regular clientele - the Central Bar, the Foot of the Walk, the Tam O'Shanter, the Vine Bar on Junction Bridge and the Prom Bar in Newhaven all seems to have an endless supply of very heavy drinkers who all know each other and are in at all hours, most days. I swear the last two of those only have half a dozen customers each.
posted by penguin pie at 7:20 AM on October 13, 2015 [2 favorites]
(Never thought I'd start a sentence on Metafilter with these words, but...) A viral facebook post I saw the other day summed it up well for me - it was a list of observations about Britain from a visiting American, who said "Pubs are not bars - they're communal living rooms."
I'm really sad to read about their decline, but having said that, I hardly go to the pub myself these days. I'd put it down to age, but maybe I'm part of a trend without realising it.
Also - really interesting to read your account, Happy Dave. I'm guessing from your description that's Canonmills? A mile to the east of that, there are attempts to gentrify the boozers on Leith Walk, but I get the impression they're having mixed results. The fancy tapas bar, which only sells one (Spanish) brand of beer and lots of wine and sherry (lawks!) is doing well. Further down, what used to be 'The Volley' (Volunteer Arms) of Trainspotting fame has been converted into a bare brick-walled bar serving artisan pork pies on slabs of wood, and is doing okayish. Further down still, another 'old man pub' has just reopened as Bar Brig, selling "scrumptious, locally sourced street eats" and seems permanently empty.
Plenty of the (slightly terrifying, to me) serious old locals still seem to be thriving, based entirely on a very regular clientele - the Central Bar, the Foot of the Walk, the Tam O'Shanter, the Vine Bar on Junction Bridge and the Prom Bar in Newhaven all seems to have an endless supply of very heavy drinkers who all know each other and are in at all hours, most days. I swear the last two of those only have half a dozen customers each.
posted by penguin pie at 7:20 AM on October 13, 2015 [2 favorites]
Fast-forward five years and my area has become gentrified almost beyond recognition. The crumbling row of shops down by the river has become an organic grocery store and cafe.
HappyDave: You know your neighbourhood has become really gentrified when there is a vociferous campaing to prevent the demolution and en-flat-ification of not the old boozer but rather the organic food store and cafe.
posted by rongorongo at 7:21 AM on October 13, 2015 [2 favorites]
HappyDave: You know your neighbourhood has become really gentrified when there is a vociferous campaing to prevent the demolution and en-flat-ification of not the old boozer but rather the organic food store and cafe.
posted by rongorongo at 7:21 AM on October 13, 2015 [2 favorites]
The failed hairdressers is an artisan marshmallow shop.
And I thought the new Artisan Cheesecake shop in Bruntsfield took the (cheese)cake. Not that I have anything against marshmallows, or cheesecake. Is it this one?
posted by rory at 7:33 AM on October 13, 2015 [1 favorite]
And I thought the new Artisan Cheesecake shop in Bruntsfield took the (cheese)cake. Not that I have anything against marshmallows, or cheesecake. Is it this one?
posted by rory at 7:33 AM on October 13, 2015 [1 favorite]
Also - really interesting to read your account, Happy Dave. I'm guessing from your description that's Canonmills?
Correct.
A mile to the east of that, there are attempts to gentrify the boozers on Leith Walk, but I get the impression they're having mixed results.
Aye, Leith Walk is pretty resistant to change, for some reason. The large volume of people living in and around it who can't/won't pay £4.20 for a pint of lager is probably a big one, plus a lingering reputation for being a bit scary. It can be a bit radge after dark at the weekends but it's miles safer and quieter than when I was wee. I suspect it's only a matter of time before the rents go up and the character of the place changes entirely. Even now people who lived, worked and drank on the Walk in the Eighties wouldn't recognise it.
HappyDave: You know your neighbourhood has become really gentrified when there is a vociferous campaing to prevent the demolution and en-flat-ification of not the old boozer but rather the organic food store and cafe.
It was the twee chalk graffiti telling me I looked beautiful today that tipped me off. As with the pubs, I'm in two minds about that campaign. The building itself that the cafe is in crap condition, but they have done a fairly good job of renovating it. And the proposed replacement was a bogging, boring sandstone slab chunk of nondescript dullness. That said, I'm not really the target audience for £6 artichokes and there's better places nearby to get breakfast. They don't seem to be lacking for custom though, so all power to them.
And I thought the new Artisan Cheesecake shop in Bruntsfield took the (cheese)cake. Not that I have anything against marshmallows, or cheesecake. Is it this one?
Yep. They're quite nice actually, but as I understand it the shopfront is basically a brick-and-mortar frontend for a primarily online business, so it doesn't need to make big bucks on its own. It's weird, like an intrusion of a specialist website into the real world.
posted by Happy Dave at 7:36 AM on October 13, 2015 [3 favorites]
Correct.
A mile to the east of that, there are attempts to gentrify the boozers on Leith Walk, but I get the impression they're having mixed results.
Aye, Leith Walk is pretty resistant to change, for some reason. The large volume of people living in and around it who can't/won't pay £4.20 for a pint of lager is probably a big one, plus a lingering reputation for being a bit scary. It can be a bit radge after dark at the weekends but it's miles safer and quieter than when I was wee. I suspect it's only a matter of time before the rents go up and the character of the place changes entirely. Even now people who lived, worked and drank on the Walk in the Eighties wouldn't recognise it.
HappyDave: You know your neighbourhood has become really gentrified when there is a vociferous campaing to prevent the demolution and en-flat-ification of not the old boozer but rather the organic food store and cafe.
It was the twee chalk graffiti telling me I looked beautiful today that tipped me off. As with the pubs, I'm in two minds about that campaign. The building itself that the cafe is in crap condition, but they have done a fairly good job of renovating it. And the proposed replacement was a bogging, boring sandstone slab chunk of nondescript dullness. That said, I'm not really the target audience for £6 artichokes and there's better places nearby to get breakfast. They don't seem to be lacking for custom though, so all power to them.
And I thought the new Artisan Cheesecake shop in Bruntsfield took the (cheese)cake. Not that I have anything against marshmallows, or cheesecake. Is it this one?
Yep. They're quite nice actually, but as I understand it the shopfront is basically a brick-and-mortar frontend for a primarily online business, so it doesn't need to make big bucks on its own. It's weird, like an intrusion of a specialist website into the real world.
posted by Happy Dave at 7:36 AM on October 13, 2015 [3 favorites]
I wonder if the rise of anti-depressants has anything to do with it?
Alcohol has always seemed a bit like self-medication for a country suffering with constant Seasonal Affective Disorder. Maybe Prozac just does the same thing better?
posted by leotrotsky at 7:53 AM on October 13, 2015 [4 favorites]
Alcohol has always seemed a bit like self-medication for a country suffering with constant Seasonal Affective Disorder. Maybe Prozac just does the same thing better?
posted by leotrotsky at 7:53 AM on October 13, 2015 [4 favorites]
I loves me some pubs, but are we really lamenting the death of an establishment geared towards providing expensive intoxicating beverages?
In some spheres, the death of the British pub would be a victory for British health and community.
Just sayin'.
posted by Phreesh at 7:58 AM on October 13, 2015 [1 favorite]
In some spheres, the death of the British pub would be a victory for British health and community.
Just sayin'.
posted by Phreesh at 7:58 AM on October 13, 2015 [1 favorite]
In some spheres, the death of the British pub would be a victory for British health and community.
It'd also depend on British (and, indeed, northern-European) culture not depending on the social effects (actual or placebo) of alcohol. Certainly in Britain, having had a drink or two gives one permission to relax the usual negative-politeness reserve, and/or an excuse for striking up a conversation with someone you'd have no pretext to do so normally.
posted by acb at 8:04 AM on October 13, 2015 [1 favorite]
It'd also depend on British (and, indeed, northern-European) culture not depending on the social effects (actual or placebo) of alcohol. Certainly in Britain, having had a drink or two gives one permission to relax the usual negative-politeness reserve, and/or an excuse for striking up a conversation with someone you'd have no pretext to do so normally.
posted by acb at 8:04 AM on October 13, 2015 [1 favorite]
Sadly, no, it goes downhill from there — the rest of the article is taken up with speculation about what a "negative pub" could be and what shape it might take.
Applebee's.
posted by officer_fred at 8:11 AM on October 13, 2015 [12 favorites]
Applebee's.
posted by officer_fred at 8:11 AM on October 13, 2015 [12 favorites]
I worked out at one point that as a not particularly heavy, but exceedingly regular drinker I accounted for around 3% of my usual bar's gross.
posted by wotsac at 8:34 AM on October 13, 2015
posted by wotsac at 8:34 AM on October 13, 2015
And I thought the new Artisan Cheesecake shop in Bruntsfield took the (cheese)cake. Not that I have anything against marshmallows, or cheesecake. Is it this one?
Yep. They're quite nice actually, but as I understand it the shopfront is basically a brick-and-mortar frontend for a primarily online business, so it doesn't need to make big bucks on its own. It's weird, like an intrusion of a specialist website into the real world.
There's a storefront in my old neighborhood in Brooklyn (which, it should be mentioned, is very much not a hipster part of Brooklyn, though it's changing rapidly) which only sells artisanal mayonnaise and mayo-base sauces. Even weirder, it's only open for like an hour and a half a day, four days a week. I thought this was sufficiently bizarre to be worth Googling, and it turns out that the space is primarily a commercial kitchen that makes sauces for a specific food truck that sells frites; selling some of the sauces is just a very minor sideline.
I still think it's totally bizarre.
posted by Itaxpica at 8:42 AM on October 13, 2015 [2 favorites]
Yep. They're quite nice actually, but as I understand it the shopfront is basically a brick-and-mortar frontend for a primarily online business, so it doesn't need to make big bucks on its own. It's weird, like an intrusion of a specialist website into the real world.
There's a storefront in my old neighborhood in Brooklyn (which, it should be mentioned, is very much not a hipster part of Brooklyn, though it's changing rapidly) which only sells artisanal mayonnaise and mayo-base sauces. Even weirder, it's only open for like an hour and a half a day, four days a week. I thought this was sufficiently bizarre to be worth Googling, and it turns out that the space is primarily a commercial kitchen that makes sauces for a specific food truck that sells frites; selling some of the sauces is just a very minor sideline.
I still think it's totally bizarre.
posted by Itaxpica at 8:42 AM on October 13, 2015 [2 favorites]
Are there good stats available about pub closures? By region? Which ones re-opened again as a pub?
In my area (Gloucestershire) it seems like new ones have been opening or re-opening in the four or so years I've been here. There's almost a glut of pubs. This is an affluent area so most of them serve food (some, very very good food) and have real ales and craft beers. Many host live music and beer and food festivals too.
This pub near me just won CAMRA's best in Britain.This pub was only opened a couple years ago by a guy from London.
It is in many ways typical of the pubs around here now. It feels like as young creative types get pushed out of London, they are coming here. In the past couple years, we have gotten tons of new cafes, coffee roasters, craft brewers, small artisan meat and cheese producers and bakers. And lots of new or revitalized pubs. We've been going to this one a lot recently and, behold, it just won a CAMRA award too.
posted by vacapinta at 8:54 AM on October 13, 2015 [1 favorite]
In my area (Gloucestershire) it seems like new ones have been opening or re-opening in the four or so years I've been here. There's almost a glut of pubs. This is an affluent area so most of them serve food (some, very very good food) and have real ales and craft beers. Many host live music and beer and food festivals too.
This pub near me just won CAMRA's best in Britain.This pub was only opened a couple years ago by a guy from London.
It is in many ways typical of the pubs around here now. It feels like as young creative types get pushed out of London, they are coming here. In the past couple years, we have gotten tons of new cafes, coffee roasters, craft brewers, small artisan meat and cheese producers and bakers. And lots of new or revitalized pubs. We've been going to this one a lot recently and, behold, it just won a CAMRA award too.
posted by vacapinta at 8:54 AM on October 13, 2015 [1 favorite]
I think the pub will definitely survive but it may not be the traditional model that people commonly associate with their idea of a British pub. I mentioned micropubs upthread, and the ones that vacapinta linked to as well, seem to be how the pub will go forward. I think that's perfectly fine, tbh.
posted by Kitteh at 9:06 AM on October 13, 2015
posted by Kitteh at 9:06 AM on October 13, 2015
Perhaps the English will stop drinking beer. After all, nobody thought the French would give up fags.
However, since we built the Enlightenment, the Industrial Revolution and the Empire on an absolute sea of drunkenness (why do you think all those Quaker industrialists were so agin it?) I rather think we'll get back to serious drinking when we decide to deliver the benefits of Britishness to the rest of the world again. Whether it wants it or not.
posted by Devonian at 9:26 AM on October 13, 2015 [4 favorites]
However, since we built the Enlightenment, the Industrial Revolution and the Empire on an absolute sea of drunkenness (why do you think all those Quaker industrialists were so agin it?) I rather think we'll get back to serious drinking when we decide to deliver the benefits of Britishness to the rest of the world again. Whether it wants it or not.
posted by Devonian at 9:26 AM on October 13, 2015 [4 favorites]
On smoking bans, in my experience? They've *helped* bars far more than they've hurt them. Before, the smokers would go, but non-smokers wouldn't because they couldn't stand the air inside. Now, smokers still go to bars (and go outside to smoke) and non-smokers do too since they can breath.
Every single city had bartenders saying the same thing. "We'll lose our all business" and afterwards "Hey, it's busy."
I think JPD nails it. Back when the pub was for all intents the social space for your house, since you didn't have room at your house for such, you needed far more of them than you do now. The retraction is simply because the role of the pub has changed -- it isn't as much your front room as it is just a place to get drinks with friends.
posted by eriko at 9:31 AM on October 13, 2015 [2 favorites]
Every single city had bartenders saying the same thing. "We'll lose our all business" and afterwards "Hey, it's busy."
I think JPD nails it. Back when the pub was for all intents the social space for your house, since you didn't have room at your house for such, you needed far more of them than you do now. The retraction is simply because the role of the pub has changed -- it isn't as much your front room as it is just a place to get drinks with friends.
posted by eriko at 9:31 AM on October 13, 2015 [2 favorites]
My local was closed for 6 months and then got reopened by hipsters. I went in and they had 20 different beers on draught, so I panicked, but when I finally found a mass market one on the list the barman wouldn't let me order it till I'd at least tried a sample of the more interesting ones. I've never had friendly, caring service in 20 years in a traditional-style pub till then. So there's hope, good luck to these boys. (And it was the same £5 price as the multinational lager).
posted by colie at 9:43 AM on October 13, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by colie at 9:43 AM on October 13, 2015 [3 favorites]
Back when the pub was for all intents the social space for your house, since you didn't have room at your house for such, you needed far more of them than you do now.
Given that the average London flat affordable by people not at the upper echelons of finance is shrinking, to the point where even the once abject bedsit ("studio flat") is now looking ostentatiously aspirational, perhaps there's an argument for safeguarding pubs as places where all those clerks/teachers/baristas/dog walkers/software testers and such can do those things that living in tiny spaces no longer allows them to aspire to do at their own home. You know, with sofas you can sit up on whilst reading a book or watching movies on your iPad, tables you can sit down at to eat (the pub wouldn't need a kitchen; services like Deliveroo, and the network of eateries they interface to, could provide the food), maybe even some rooms you can rent for anything from listening to music on speakers to doing a spot of light DIY?
posted by acb at 9:45 AM on October 13, 2015 [1 favorite]
Given that the average London flat affordable by people not at the upper echelons of finance is shrinking, to the point where even the once abject bedsit ("studio flat") is now looking ostentatiously aspirational, perhaps there's an argument for safeguarding pubs as places where all those clerks/teachers/baristas/dog walkers/software testers and such can do those things that living in tiny spaces no longer allows them to aspire to do at their own home. You know, with sofas you can sit up on whilst reading a book or watching movies on your iPad, tables you can sit down at to eat (the pub wouldn't need a kitchen; services like Deliveroo, and the network of eateries they interface to, could provide the food), maybe even some rooms you can rent for anything from listening to music on speakers to doing a spot of light DIY?
posted by acb at 9:45 AM on October 13, 2015 [1 favorite]
To the Winchester!
posted by coust at 9:52 AM on October 13, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by coust at 9:52 AM on October 13, 2015 [1 favorite]
many bars are propped up by local alcoholics.
...and vice versa.
posted by Paul Slade at 11:26 AM on October 13, 2015 [7 favorites]
...and vice versa.
posted by Paul Slade at 11:26 AM on October 13, 2015 [7 favorites]
How are bars in American towns holding up?
Around here at least, windowless workingman's bars are on the way out.
Brewery (of which we have more than a dozen) tasting rooms are in.
The giant sportsbar/brewpub wave seems to have missed us entirely, which is odd, but not entirely unexpected.
posted by madajb at 12:14 PM on October 13, 2015
Around here at least, windowless workingman's bars are on the way out.
Brewery (of which we have more than a dozen) tasting rooms are in.
The giant sportsbar/brewpub wave seems to have missed us entirely, which is odd, but not entirely unexpected.
posted by madajb at 12:14 PM on October 13, 2015
the role of the pub has changed -- it isn't as much your front room as it is just a place to get drinks with friends.
I'd also call out the role of gender, especially in family life. Here in the US, women did not go to the "old man" bars (neighborhood bars). Women were at best home with children, at worst working AND taking care of children. The bars weren't living rooms exactly - for a lot of the 20th century, they were places men went to escape from family life, truly the "third place" for them between work and home. Family life and demographics have changed. I like to think we have fewer of the kinds of families that found morose 50-year-old men on barstools at four-thirty in the afternoon than we did in my grandfather's bar-drinking era. Both men and women have more choices about how to spend their time. Work plays a bigger role in all of our lives and people aren't as often starting families at age 19 or 20. So the place that a neighborhood bar fit in someone's life has shifted.
posted by Miko at 1:44 PM on October 13, 2015 [5 favorites]
I'd also call out the role of gender, especially in family life. Here in the US, women did not go to the "old man" bars (neighborhood bars). Women were at best home with children, at worst working AND taking care of children. The bars weren't living rooms exactly - for a lot of the 20th century, they were places men went to escape from family life, truly the "third place" for them between work and home. Family life and demographics have changed. I like to think we have fewer of the kinds of families that found morose 50-year-old men on barstools at four-thirty in the afternoon than we did in my grandfather's bar-drinking era. Both men and women have more choices about how to spend their time. Work plays a bigger role in all of our lives and people aren't as often starting families at age 19 or 20. So the place that a neighborhood bar fit in someone's life has shifted.
posted by Miko at 1:44 PM on October 13, 2015 [5 favorites]
What's the situation elsewhere? Is there no longer a Kneipe on every corner in Germany?
People are drinking less beer and pubs are closing in Germany. In German, but with a chart at the bottom showing the change by state.
posted by frimble at 2:01 PM on October 13, 2015 [1 favorite]
People are drinking less beer and pubs are closing in Germany. In German, but with a chart at the bottom showing the change by state.
posted by frimble at 2:01 PM on October 13, 2015 [1 favorite]
Yeah, like the Gloucestershire example (but not strictly affluent), my mid-sized Berkshire town is oversupplied with pubs. There are some very good ones - even very good ones that don't serve food - and some ones on the way out, some that have been rescued and are in the way back up, sports specialists, commuter pubs (2 - rammed 4pm - 7pm every night then a small crew of drunks until closing), a hipster one, a couple of unostentatious gay pubs, two student vomitoria, a military one, two cheapie Wetherspoons knock offs, two actual Wetherspoons, a community pub, a CAMRA-supported one in rehab, and one odd one that becomes an Indian pub when the temple up the top of the hill finishes and then does a meat raffle a few hours later. We lost a couple to alternative uses in the last eight years, but actually it's seems a healthy ecosystem.
The big deal, I think, is that they're all walkable from major residential areas. None of them even have parking, apart from the Indian one.
posted by cromagnon at 2:20 PM on October 13, 2015
The big deal, I think, is that they're all walkable from major residential areas. None of them even have parking, apart from the Indian one.
posted by cromagnon at 2:20 PM on October 13, 2015
The business arrangements in the article, though, sound very convoluted to me, very different than how the local bars I know here operate. The pubs they are describing are more like franchises, where the pub operators have the businesses bought and sold under them with distribution requirements going with those sales.
A lot of that's the toxic remnants of the old tied house model, in which the brewery itself was the owner of the pub and the sole supplier to the tenant. Some background in this earlier Guardian article:
(This House of Commons note [PDF] includes a surprisingly readable section on the rise of pubcos as a result of forced brewery divestment.)
posted by We had a deal, Kyle at 5:36 PM on October 13, 2015 [1 favorite]
A lot of that's the toxic remnants of the old tied house model, in which the brewery itself was the owner of the pub and the sole supplier to the tenant. Some background in this earlier Guardian article:
The pub ownership model isn't working either. Brimming with free market zeal the Tories forced the breweries to sell off their pubs in the early 1990s. Thatcherite dogma said it was anti-competitive that pub tenants had to buy beer exclusively from their brewery owners. Smart City types formed 'PubCos' which acquired these estates (Punch Taverns, for example, owes more than £3bn, or £464,000 for each of its pubs), but in the majority of cases, and catastrophically for the industry, the "tie" which obliges the tenant to buy beer from its landlord remained in place. So now most pubs are not only paying large rents but also have to buy their beer at grossly inflated prices.The UK does have independent pubs -- "free houses" but because of this legacy a majority of pubs are still tied houses owned by either brewers or pubcos.
(This House of Commons note [PDF] includes a surprisingly readable section on the rise of pubcos as a result of forced brewery divestment.)
posted by We had a deal, Kyle at 5:36 PM on October 13, 2015 [1 favorite]
Phreesh: "I loves me some pubs, but are we really lamenting the death of an establishment geared towards providing expensive intoxicating beverages?
In some spheres, the death of the British pub would be a victory for British health and community."
Eh, a lot of public health analysis is more sophisticated than that and recognizes the importance of community meeting-places and social support as positive health influences offsetting the fact that pubs trade in beer and crisps. My local (which is in Australia and serves good meals but is undeniably a pub in the English tradition, difficult though that is to describe) is chockablock with three-generation families all weekend. It entirely depends on the role of the particular pub in the particular community.
posted by gingerest at 8:01 PM on October 13, 2015 [3 favorites]
In some spheres, the death of the British pub would be a victory for British health and community."
Eh, a lot of public health analysis is more sophisticated than that and recognizes the importance of community meeting-places and social support as positive health influences offsetting the fact that pubs trade in beer and crisps. My local (which is in Australia and serves good meals but is undeniably a pub in the English tradition, difficult though that is to describe) is chockablock with three-generation families all weekend. It entirely depends on the role of the particular pub in the particular community.
posted by gingerest at 8:01 PM on October 13, 2015 [3 favorites]
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posted by ellieBOA at 4:08 AM on October 13, 2015