On Hillary Clinton's 'likeability'
December 22, 2015 8:51 AM Subscribe
Remember when Texts from Hillary was first lauded and she was liked (even loved) in certain circles? That got reversed with the email debacle, which is a sham[e].
posted by filthy light thief at 9:08 AM on December 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by filthy light thief at 9:08 AM on December 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
Clinton is a non-starter for me, because there's no universe where I'm going to vote for her, but the gendered crap she gets is complete bullshit and should be ignored and denounced at every turn.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 9:10 AM on December 22, 2015 [8 favorites]
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 9:10 AM on December 22, 2015 [8 favorites]
I don't trust Hillary because periodically she tells whoppers, but she's got my vote for certain, and I appreciate Doyle's detailed and accurate dissection of the incredible sexism Clinton has weathered and is still facing.
posted by bearwife at 9:12 AM on December 22, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by bearwife at 9:12 AM on December 22, 2015 [2 favorites]
I'm definitely team Bernie and I understand the concerns that many have about Hillary Clinton, but I will gladly vote for her (should she get the nom) over any of those despicable asshats in the GOP. Hillary is far from perfect but she's gotta be a LOT better than President Cruz :P
posted by supermedusa at 9:13 AM on December 22, 2015 [10 favorites]
posted by supermedusa at 9:13 AM on December 22, 2015 [10 favorites]
This surprisingly okay Slate piece covered a bit about the differences in perception of Bernie v Hillary as well:
There are lots of reasons why Bernie might out-cool Hillary: He’s more progressive, he’s a long-shot, and he’s so new to national celebrity that he has the luxury of being introduced to the world as a solidly “authentic” political specimen. But there’s also one last thing. It’s difficult to imagine a 74-year-old woman who yells all of her opinions and refuses to brush her hair being embraced by pundits for her “refreshing” and “authentic” look. American culture does not exactly appreciate the image of the “authentic” older woman, but boy does it hate the older woman who strains to stay relevant. Sanders is six years Hillary’s senior, but somehow, the cool looks better on him.
posted by Think_Long at 9:13 AM on December 22, 2015 [20 favorites]
There are lots of reasons why Bernie might out-cool Hillary: He’s more progressive, he’s a long-shot, and he’s so new to national celebrity that he has the luxury of being introduced to the world as a solidly “authentic” political specimen. But there’s also one last thing. It’s difficult to imagine a 74-year-old woman who yells all of her opinions and refuses to brush her hair being embraced by pundits for her “refreshing” and “authentic” look. American culture does not exactly appreciate the image of the “authentic” older woman, but boy does it hate the older woman who strains to stay relevant. Sanders is six years Hillary’s senior, but somehow, the cool looks better on him.
posted by Think_Long at 9:13 AM on December 22, 2015 [20 favorites]
I could give a shit about Hillary's likeability.
posted by idiopath at 9:14 AM on December 22, 2015 [23 favorites]
She must disprove the Thatcher Theorem – because one female head of state was a wretched conservative, all female heads of state will be wretched conservatives...This is nonsense. She's a centrist poster child of the DLC, if you are on the left she is to your right.
posted by idiopath at 9:14 AM on December 22, 2015 [23 favorites]
... in a hundred years she'll be remembered as the famous, important President Clinton, and Bill will be a trivia question ...
On that tangent:
posted by filthy light thief at 9:16 AM on December 22, 2015
On that tangent:
Clinton's claims to a lasting, positive legacy for the Democratic Party have been severely undermined by two realities: the shift in control of Congress to the Republican Party on his watch and the loss by his would-be successor, Vice President Al Gore, in the 2000 presidential election. Thus, Clinton's partisan legacy remains complex and uncertain.I think Hillary is already overshadowing her husband, in part for weathering various tempests (in teacups).
posted by filthy light thief at 9:16 AM on December 22, 2015
Thanks for sharing this article, it's great. It's been very dismaying how much of the right-wing bullshit about Clinton has been taken up by elements of the left.
Obama ends a press conference early to go see Star Wars: such a bro!
Hillary ends her debate closing statement with 'may the force be with you': she's a calculating, desperate millennial-baiter! I bet she's never even seen Star Wars!
posted by sonmi at 9:19 AM on December 22, 2015 [27 favorites]
Obama ends a press conference early to go see Star Wars: such a bro!
Hillary ends her debate closing statement with 'may the force be with you': she's a calculating, desperate millennial-baiter! I bet she's never even seen Star Wars!
posted by sonmi at 9:19 AM on December 22, 2015 [27 favorites]
Sady Doyle: "The pressures she lives under, every moment of her life, are so numerous and so all-encompassing that she barely has room to breathe. She doesn’t have an inch of leeway, a single safe option; there is no version of Hillary Clinton that won’t receive visceral hatred, and loud, personal criticism."
The only safe way for her to be in the public sphere ... is not to be. That's horrifying. For her. For all women.
posted by MonkeyToes at 9:22 AM on December 22, 2015 [30 favorites]
The only safe way for her to be in the public sphere ... is not to be. That's horrifying. For her. For all women.
posted by MonkeyToes at 9:22 AM on December 22, 2015 [30 favorites]
Hillary ends her debate closing statement with 'may the force be with you': she's a calculating, desperate millennial-baiter! I bet she's never even seen Star Wars!
Was Hillary's 'May the Force Be With You' a Nod to Donor J.J. Abrams?
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 9:23 AM on December 22, 2015
Was Hillary's 'May the Force Be With You' a Nod to Donor J.J. Abrams?
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 9:23 AM on December 22, 2015
Even though I don't like her politics all that much — yeah, you think 15 dollars an hour is too much? You think 12 dollars an hour is enough? You wanna try living off of 12 dollars an hour? — I respect Clinton a great deal, and love how deftly she manages to take no shit from anyone when everyone's giving her constant shit. I guess I'm a Bernie person, but maybe I need to make a deal with myself: the way I can justify being a Bernie person is to make a point of just utterly ripping into other Bernie people when they say dumb misogynist things about Clinton, or really whenever they question how good she is at her job.
Also Sady Doyle is a rockstar. Doyle for president 2024.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 9:27 AM on December 22, 2015 [10 favorites]
Also Sady Doyle is a rockstar. Doyle for president 2024.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 9:27 AM on December 22, 2015 [10 favorites]
>Bill will be a trivia question - the other Clinton, you know, the caretaker blowjob president during that decade nothing really important happened.
You mean, aside from having the lowest employment rate in the previous 30 years (4% in 2000) , connecting 95% of schools to the internet in 1999 (Gore initiative) , the elimination of the federal deficit and having the first surplus in decades, the first proposals (defeated in Congress) for National Health Care which led directly to Obama's success today and the most sweeping gun safety legislation ever - the Brady Bill which led to half a millions felons being ineligible to buy guns and of course the Family Medical Leave act and the highest income growth for middle class Americans in decades.
But if you discount all that stuff I suppose I can see your point.
posted by AGameOfMoans at 9:35 AM on December 22, 2015 [29 favorites]
You mean, aside from having the lowest employment rate in the previous 30 years (4% in 2000) , connecting 95% of schools to the internet in 1999 (Gore initiative) , the elimination of the federal deficit and having the first surplus in decades, the first proposals (defeated in Congress) for National Health Care which led directly to Obama's success today and the most sweeping gun safety legislation ever - the Brady Bill which led to half a millions felons being ineligible to buy guns and of course the Family Medical Leave act and the highest income growth for middle class Americans in decades.
But if you discount all that stuff I suppose I can see your point.
posted by AGameOfMoans at 9:35 AM on December 22, 2015 [29 favorites]
Fascinating how some of the comments in this thread already go a good way toward buttressing Sady Doyle's thesis. The simple reality is that Hillary can't win for trying, no matter what she does, how she acts, what politics she espouses (or "pretends" to espouse), or even who the alternatives are on the other side. With Hillary, there's always that "but." I'll vote for her, but. I dislike her, but. She'd be otherwise viable, but. It goes without saying that had she been male, Obama would never have made his condescending crack about her being "likeable enough."
posted by blucevalo at 9:40 AM on December 22, 2015 [10 favorites]
posted by blucevalo at 9:40 AM on December 22, 2015 [10 favorites]
I would say "likability" has been a huge, if not THE, factor in the last what, 6 presidential elections? Seems a big deal to me.
posted by Windopaene at 9:46 AM on December 22, 2015 [5 favorites]
posted by Windopaene at 9:46 AM on December 22, 2015 [5 favorites]
I agree that the way that Hillary Clinton is covered in the media is double standard BS. I don't care if she's likeable or not; a president's job is to be effective, not pleasant. And Americans tend to overrate "toughness" in their leaders - unreflexive carpet-bombing generally makes foreign policy problems worse, not better.
But my real issue with the way she's covered is not that it's double standard BS, but that it's the wrong kind of double standard BS. Hillary has been trying to position herself as a friend of the middle class and an advocate for the working man for years even though her record on these issues is abominable. Forget all of the stuff about how Bill's deregulation of the financial industry caused the 2008 crash; it isn't entirely fair to hang her husband's failings around her neck. But it is fair to point out that she served six years on the Wal Mart board of directors at a time when they were actively crushing small scale locally owned businesses left and right. This is the woman that's going to help re-balance the scales?
Honestly, I don't care if she's "relateable" or if she's "robotic". I don't care if she's "deferential" or "bitchy". But I do care about the fact that real world wages have been falling for the majority of Americans since the early 70s. I also care about the fact that her proposed economic policies probably won't do much of anything to undo that slide because she's afraid to actually address the root causes of the problem.
So do I wish that the media would cover her in a less hypocritical fashion? Yes, I do. But I also wish that her followers would be a little more willing to admit that she, too, is a hypocrite - that she is someone who is all too willing to pretend she's going to be a big reformer when her entire professional history suggests that she's basically just an enabler.
posted by Kiablokirk at 9:48 AM on December 22, 2015 [35 favorites]
But my real issue with the way she's covered is not that it's double standard BS, but that it's the wrong kind of double standard BS. Hillary has been trying to position herself as a friend of the middle class and an advocate for the working man for years even though her record on these issues is abominable. Forget all of the stuff about how Bill's deregulation of the financial industry caused the 2008 crash; it isn't entirely fair to hang her husband's failings around her neck. But it is fair to point out that she served six years on the Wal Mart board of directors at a time when they were actively crushing small scale locally owned businesses left and right. This is the woman that's going to help re-balance the scales?
Honestly, I don't care if she's "relateable" or if she's "robotic". I don't care if she's "deferential" or "bitchy". But I do care about the fact that real world wages have been falling for the majority of Americans since the early 70s. I also care about the fact that her proposed economic policies probably won't do much of anything to undo that slide because she's afraid to actually address the root causes of the problem.
So do I wish that the media would cover her in a less hypocritical fashion? Yes, I do. But I also wish that her followers would be a little more willing to admit that she, too, is a hypocrite - that she is someone who is all too willing to pretend she's going to be a big reformer when her entire professional history suggests that she's basically just an enabler.
posted by Kiablokirk at 9:48 AM on December 22, 2015 [35 favorites]
Thanks for posting this. It helped me indentify some of my harsh judgements of her. I still don't trust her - she is a terrible liar, but if she wins the nom I will vote for her.
I am grateful that Bernie is around to push her towards the center.
posted by cairnoflore at 9:53 AM on December 22, 2015 [2 favorites]
I am grateful that Bernie is around to push her towards the center.
posted by cairnoflore at 9:53 AM on December 22, 2015 [2 favorites]
Right now, right this second, Fox is giving her shit by saying her daughter has timed her second pregnancy to help her mom's campaign.
I meant, that's just today.
She sat through the ridiculous email/Benghazi hearings because she had to, but the Republicans had nothing, because there was nothing. She hardly seemed fazed.
There are lots of people, in 2015, who still say she killed Vince Foster, that she is some kind of 12th-level master of dark forces, but that also she is so dumb like all broads and also the real reason for everything bad that's happened in the last 20 years.
Which is the same shit they throw at Obama, but he's only been dodging it during his campaign and presidency; she's been the target of a massive hatestorm ever since Bill got the presidency (and probably before). Decades. Decades of vile shit, of murder accusations, of nasty nasty remarks, of attacks on her family, on of death threats. Of never being able to laugh, relax, or lose her temper in public without it being a new massive shitstorm.
And she's still going. She might very well win this thing.
Meanwhile, Tough Guy Trump demanded she apologize this week for saying he was an ISIS recruiting tool and basically hurting his feelings.
I hope she laughs in the face of anyone who asks her if she's going to do that. She may be too canny to do so, but I hope she does.
Aside from being a puerile reason to pick a candidate, "likeability" is something that is denied to her because she is a woman. If we wait for a woman that everyone likes to run, we will never have a woman president. Because a lot of people simply hate/mistrust/doubt the abilities of women.
And utterly and sincerely I say: fuck those people.
I want her to win just to stick it to them.
posted by emjaybee at 9:53 AM on December 22, 2015 [67 favorites]
I meant, that's just today.
She sat through the ridiculous email/Benghazi hearings because she had to, but the Republicans had nothing, because there was nothing. She hardly seemed fazed.
There are lots of people, in 2015, who still say she killed Vince Foster, that she is some kind of 12th-level master of dark forces, but that also she is so dumb like all broads and also the real reason for everything bad that's happened in the last 20 years.
Which is the same shit they throw at Obama, but he's only been dodging it during his campaign and presidency; she's been the target of a massive hatestorm ever since Bill got the presidency (and probably before). Decades. Decades of vile shit, of murder accusations, of nasty nasty remarks, of attacks on her family, on of death threats. Of never being able to laugh, relax, or lose her temper in public without it being a new massive shitstorm.
And she's still going. She might very well win this thing.
Meanwhile, Tough Guy Trump demanded she apologize this week for saying he was an ISIS recruiting tool and basically hurting his feelings.
I hope she laughs in the face of anyone who asks her if she's going to do that. She may be too canny to do so, but I hope she does.
Aside from being a puerile reason to pick a candidate, "likeability" is something that is denied to her because she is a woman. If we wait for a woman that everyone likes to run, we will never have a woman president. Because a lot of people simply hate/mistrust/doubt the abilities of women.
And utterly and sincerely I say: fuck those people.
I want her to win just to stick it to them.
posted by emjaybee at 9:53 AM on December 22, 2015 [67 favorites]
No universe roomthreeseventeen? Not Clinton vs. Trump? Clinton vs. Nixon's head in a jar? Clinton vs. evil goatee Clinton?
posted by Wretch729 at 9:56 AM on December 22, 2015 [6 favorites]
posted by Wretch729 at 9:56 AM on December 22, 2015 [6 favorites]
She must disprove the Thatcher Theorem – because one female head of state was a wretched conservative, all female heads of state will be wretched conservativesEven if you think leftists' comparison of Clinton to Thatcher is disingenuous, this is a hilariously disingenuous way to dismiss it.
posted by Rustic Etruscan at 9:58 AM on December 22, 2015 [3 favorites]
No universe roomthreeseventeen? Not Clinton vs. Trump? Clinton vs. Nixon's head in a jar? Clinton vs. evil goatee Clinton?
Well, I live in a state/neighborhood where it truly doesn't matter, so I'm pretty confident I can vote third party without messing crap up.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 10:06 AM on December 22, 2015
Well, I live in a state/neighborhood where it truly doesn't matter, so I'm pretty confident I can vote third party without messing crap up.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 10:06 AM on December 22, 2015
Even though I don't like her politics all that much — yeah, you think 15 dollars an hour is too much? You think 12 dollars an hour is enough? You wanna try living off of 12 dollars an hour?
Clinton's politics are those of an incrementalist. Sanders' are those of a political revolutionary. I don't think Clinton's calculus is that $12 is "enough" or that is $15 is "too much," but that $12 falls in the realm of what she considers plausible enough to put in her platform.
posted by AndrewInDC at 10:06 AM on December 22, 2015 [15 favorites]
Clinton's politics are those of an incrementalist. Sanders' are those of a political revolutionary. I don't think Clinton's calculus is that $12 is "enough" or that is $15 is "too much," but that $12 falls in the realm of what she considers plausible enough to put in her platform.
posted by AndrewInDC at 10:06 AM on December 22, 2015 [15 favorites]
Hillary belongs to a movement that has been incrementally pushing the Democratic party to the right. The best we can hope is that she takes us down the path to hell slower than a Republican would.
posted by idiopath at 10:13 AM on December 22, 2015 [25 favorites]
posted by idiopath at 10:13 AM on December 22, 2015 [25 favorites]
Nobody deserves sexism. Nobody deserves the shitshow that Republicans have thrown at her about Benghazi.
My criticism of her is that she is a career politician rather than a career activist. She was on the wrong side of history on issues when that was the "safe" position to take. She's still uncomfortably far to my right, and I don't see good things coming from having her in office beyond her not being Trump or Cruz.
posted by Foosnark at 10:23 AM on December 22, 2015 [7 favorites]
My criticism of her is that she is a career politician rather than a career activist. She was on the wrong side of history on issues when that was the "safe" position to take. She's still uncomfortably far to my right, and I don't see good things coming from having her in office beyond her not being Trump or Cruz.
posted by Foosnark at 10:23 AM on December 22, 2015 [7 favorites]
Even the threat of a Bush presidency couldn't get Kerry elected, and Kerry is male. There is something to be said for how a candidate has to be considered a legitimate option, in order to have a successful run for office.
posted by a lungful of dragon at 10:26 AM on December 22, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by a lungful of dragon at 10:26 AM on December 22, 2015 [3 favorites]
This is where I will drop my not-so-subtle reminder that your local congressional elections are really important, and you should be paying attention to those instead of hand-wringing about Hillary's possibly-a-bit-too-centrist ideology (and I say this as somebody who is fairly lukewarm about Hillary -- IMO, her support for the war should have been an automatic disqualifier, but that's another topic)
At this point, there's no amount of fretting that's going to influence the course of the Democratic vote in the 2016 Presidential election. We need a better congress, and there are things that we can do about that. I'm not sure if Clinton is "guaranteed" the presidency, but right now there are much more important things for us to focus on.
posted by schmod at 10:28 AM on December 22, 2015 [20 favorites]
At this point, there's no amount of fretting that's going to influence the course of the Democratic vote in the 2016 Presidential election. We need a better congress, and there are things that we can do about that. I'm not sure if Clinton is "guaranteed" the presidency, but right now there are much more important things for us to focus on.
posted by schmod at 10:28 AM on December 22, 2015 [20 favorites]
Well sure, but the post is kind of about Hillary, so.
posted by Spathe Cadet at 10:37 AM on December 22, 2015 [6 favorites]
posted by Spathe Cadet at 10:37 AM on December 22, 2015 [6 favorites]
Meanwhile, Tough Guy Trump demanded she apologize this week for saying he was an ISIS recruiting tool and basically hurting his feelings.
I hope she laughs in the face of anyone who asks her if she's going to do that. She may be too canny to do so, but I hope she does.
Hillary Clinton should apologize to Trump. Making shit up and not apologizing for it is supposed to be Trump's routine, not hers.
posted by Drinky Die at 10:38 AM on December 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
I hope she laughs in the face of anyone who asks her if she's going to do that. She may be too canny to do so, but I hope she does.
Hillary Clinton should apologize to Trump. Making shit up and not apologizing for it is supposed to be Trump's routine, not hers.
posted by Drinky Die at 10:38 AM on December 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
Spathe Cadet: "Well sure, but the post is kind of about Hillary, so."
Yeah, and my point is that the amount of attention the Presidential elections are receiving has vastly eclipsed its usefulness.
We're splitting hairs over the candidate that is going to win both elections by a wide margin.
posted by schmod at 10:45 AM on December 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
Yeah, and my point is that the amount of attention the Presidential elections are receiving has vastly eclipsed its usefulness.
We're splitting hairs over the candidate that is going to win both elections by a wide margin.
posted by schmod at 10:45 AM on December 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
We're splitting hairs over the candidate that is going to win both elections by a wide margin.
It would be the height of silliness to insist that right now. Americans are weird.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 10:47 AM on December 22, 2015 [9 favorites]
It would be the height of silliness to insist that right now. Americans are weird.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 10:47 AM on December 22, 2015 [9 favorites]
Ideally we'd be talking about how the candidate has to walk a gendered tight-rope instead of where her policy notions fall on the political spectrum.
posted by Think_Long at 10:48 AM on December 22, 2015 [5 favorites]
posted by Think_Long at 10:48 AM on December 22, 2015 [5 favorites]
and my point is that the amount of attention the Presidential elections are receiving has vastly eclipsed its usefulness.
This is true. It's still a derail in this particular discussion.
posted by Spathe Cadet at 10:49 AM on December 22, 2015
This is true. It's still a derail in this particular discussion.
posted by Spathe Cadet at 10:49 AM on December 22, 2015
I don't care if she's likeable or not; a president's job is to be effective, not pleasant.
I agree! Now let's get the rest of America on board.
Because elections are very much about likeability. Even if people disagree with it, even if people say they actively disregard it - it still matters, especially when we're talking about a woman. People might not think they're judging her by deeply, deeply ingrained sexist standards, and I believe they really believe it, but in some ways I don't know how possible that really is and there is literally no way to tell. People will say it's not about her gender, it's just something else about her that doesn't sit well. Would they apply these exact same standards to someone like Bernie? There's no way of knowing. I think there is a minority of people who can honestly examine their assumptions and where they come from and whether they're fair, but I think it is a very small minority. I still have a hard time with it sometimes and I'm hyper-aware of these things.
I mean, how often do people say they don't like Hillary because she's not trustworthy? Because she lies? That seems like a common thing applied to her. How many times has that been stated in just this thread? But according to Politifact, the number of statements made by Hillary rated Mostly False, False or Pants On Fire is 28%. How does Bernie measure up in the same categories? 28%! How often do you hear left-leaning people call Bernie a liar? A Google search for "Bernie Sanders lies" gets around 11 million results. How about Hillary? 35 million results. If we were straight up judging people on truthiness, you'd think that we'd hear about Bernie and all his lies and untrustworthiness about as much as we do for Hillary, but we don't. So again, I think that a lot of people think they're being objective and fair (and some of them probably are), but there's something going on a deeper level that most people don't recognize around expectations we have around women and how they should act or look and likeability plays into that very much.
I want her to win just to stick it to them.
I want her to win because I have to deal with this same kind of stuff all the time, even when I'm being very charitable in my interpretation (which I think I usually am) and I get really sick of it. Hillary is front and center and has been for decades taking the full force of the nasty (sometimes hidden, sometimes not) misogyny that all women have to deal with on a smaller level every day. And she keeps doing it. She in her own way is paving the road for other women, almost by brute force, in that she just won't back down. And that is something that I and probably most other people would not have been able to do and I am grateful to her for it. My beliefs align more with Bernie's and if I thought he had a chance at getting the nomination, I might reconsider, but I don't think he does. And even if he did have a chance, I'm still not sure that I would change my mind. Because what people say to get elected can and does change (I pretty much expect it to as no one would be able to govern without becoming more centrist - how many people have been disappointed by Obama?); but the changes in public consciousness and expectations that we have of women that come about by a strong woman who can take the backlash forcing her way into the public eye are real changes, even if they're not measurable by a truth-o-meter. Representation matters.
posted by triggerfinger at 10:56 AM on December 22, 2015 [27 favorites]
I agree! Now let's get the rest of America on board.
Because elections are very much about likeability. Even if people disagree with it, even if people say they actively disregard it - it still matters, especially when we're talking about a woman. People might not think they're judging her by deeply, deeply ingrained sexist standards, and I believe they really believe it, but in some ways I don't know how possible that really is and there is literally no way to tell. People will say it's not about her gender, it's just something else about her that doesn't sit well. Would they apply these exact same standards to someone like Bernie? There's no way of knowing. I think there is a minority of people who can honestly examine their assumptions and where they come from and whether they're fair, but I think it is a very small minority. I still have a hard time with it sometimes and I'm hyper-aware of these things.
I mean, how often do people say they don't like Hillary because she's not trustworthy? Because she lies? That seems like a common thing applied to her. How many times has that been stated in just this thread? But according to Politifact, the number of statements made by Hillary rated Mostly False, False or Pants On Fire is 28%. How does Bernie measure up in the same categories? 28%! How often do you hear left-leaning people call Bernie a liar? A Google search for "Bernie Sanders lies" gets around 11 million results. How about Hillary? 35 million results. If we were straight up judging people on truthiness, you'd think that we'd hear about Bernie and all his lies and untrustworthiness about as much as we do for Hillary, but we don't. So again, I think that a lot of people think they're being objective and fair (and some of them probably are), but there's something going on a deeper level that most people don't recognize around expectations we have around women and how they should act or look and likeability plays into that very much.
I want her to win just to stick it to them.
I want her to win because I have to deal with this same kind of stuff all the time, even when I'm being very charitable in my interpretation (which I think I usually am) and I get really sick of it. Hillary is front and center and has been for decades taking the full force of the nasty (sometimes hidden, sometimes not) misogyny that all women have to deal with on a smaller level every day. And she keeps doing it. She in her own way is paving the road for other women, almost by brute force, in that she just won't back down. And that is something that I and probably most other people would not have been able to do and I am grateful to her for it. My beliefs align more with Bernie's and if I thought he had a chance at getting the nomination, I might reconsider, but I don't think he does. And even if he did have a chance, I'm still not sure that I would change my mind. Because what people say to get elected can and does change (I pretty much expect it to as no one would be able to govern without becoming more centrist - how many people have been disappointed by Obama?); but the changes in public consciousness and expectations that we have of women that come about by a strong woman who can take the backlash forcing her way into the public eye are real changes, even if they're not measurable by a truth-o-meter. Representation matters.
posted by triggerfinger at 10:56 AM on December 22, 2015 [27 favorites]
15 is incrementalism. Hell, 22 is incrementalism. Sanders can front about being a democratic socialist all he wants, but what he really is is an ordinary social democratic incrementalist.
Politicians who support the 12 dollar an hour minimum wage aren't incrementalists. The difference between 12 and 15 isn't a difference of preferred tactics, it's a difference in values. I learned this in Oakland, where a move toward 15 last cycle was stopped cold when the center-right candidate for mayor pre-emptively supported 12.25. 12 isn't an incrementalist move to get us what we need. It's a compromise by the liberals who realize they have to throw leftists a bone ever so often so that we don't start organizing against them.
Ugh, this whole thing makes me feel like such a dude. like, from the outside I know I'm totally indistinguishable from the liberal bros who pretend that they don't support Clinton's values, but in reality just think she's got girl cooties or whatever.
Clinton seems like a really cool person who'd be real fun to get a drink with, and an utter delight to work for — she's clearly a great, no-nonsense boss (in both the literal sense of the word and in the Internet-jargon "like a boss!" sense) who knows what she's doing and knows how to find and manage other people who know what they're doing. It's just, I've had personal experience working on campaigns that got completely rolled by hypercompetent liberals who know how to stop leftists from taking back what is rightfully ours by throwing us an occasional scrap.
She'll be an interesting president, and some significant good will come of her administration, but it'll come from leftists forcing her to the left rather than from Clinton herself.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 11:00 AM on December 22, 2015 [9 favorites]
Politicians who support the 12 dollar an hour minimum wage aren't incrementalists. The difference between 12 and 15 isn't a difference of preferred tactics, it's a difference in values. I learned this in Oakland, where a move toward 15 last cycle was stopped cold when the center-right candidate for mayor pre-emptively supported 12.25. 12 isn't an incrementalist move to get us what we need. It's a compromise by the liberals who realize they have to throw leftists a bone ever so often so that we don't start organizing against them.
Ugh, this whole thing makes me feel like such a dude. like, from the outside I know I'm totally indistinguishable from the liberal bros who pretend that they don't support Clinton's values, but in reality just think she's got girl cooties or whatever.
Clinton seems like a really cool person who'd be real fun to get a drink with, and an utter delight to work for — she's clearly a great, no-nonsense boss (in both the literal sense of the word and in the Internet-jargon "like a boss!" sense) who knows what she's doing and knows how to find and manage other people who know what they're doing. It's just, I've had personal experience working on campaigns that got completely rolled by hypercompetent liberals who know how to stop leftists from taking back what is rightfully ours by throwing us an occasional scrap.
She'll be an interesting president, and some significant good will come of her administration, but it'll come from leftists forcing her to the left rather than from Clinton herself.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 11:00 AM on December 22, 2015 [9 favorites]
Clinton vs. evil goatee Clinton?
Evil Goatee Bill or Evil Goatee Hillary? Because I'd vote for EGH in a heartbeat
posted by InfidelZombie at 11:01 AM on December 22, 2015
Evil Goatee Bill or Evil Goatee Hillary? Because I'd vote for EGH in a heartbeat
posted by InfidelZombie at 11:01 AM on December 22, 2015
The day Trump apologizes for the many, many, much more heinous and damaging things he's made up about other people/entire countries/entire genders is the day I'll get upset about Clinton's ISIS remark.
The fact that this off-the-cuff slam, along with everything she has ever said, is getting treated like it needs to be picked apart and then investigated by a Congressional committee, is well, sadly typical.
And yeah, if you hate her, fine. Vote for your downticket races, people. Close your eyes and think of the Supreme Court. Don't let guys with stupid haircuts and fascist ideals get into the White House.
If we achieve that goal, then hey, we've got 8 years to bitch about whatever Clinton does at our leisure. Instead of dealing with massive immigrant roundups and giant walls on the Mexico border and coathanger abortions for all.
posted by emjaybee at 11:15 AM on December 22, 2015 [8 favorites]
The fact that this off-the-cuff slam, along with everything she has ever said, is getting treated like it needs to be picked apart and then investigated by a Congressional committee, is well, sadly typical.
And yeah, if you hate her, fine. Vote for your downticket races, people. Close your eyes and think of the Supreme Court. Don't let guys with stupid haircuts and fascist ideals get into the White House.
If we achieve that goal, then hey, we've got 8 years to bitch about whatever Clinton does at our leisure. Instead of dealing with massive immigrant roundups and giant walls on the Mexico border and coathanger abortions for all.
posted by emjaybee at 11:15 AM on December 22, 2015 [8 favorites]
Clinton is a non-starter for me, because there's no universe where I'm going to vote for her
Do what you want in the primaries, but please, please, please do vote for her in the general. The importance of the Supreme Court means that anyone remotely liberal, whether they support Clinton, Sanders, O'Malley, or Jill Stein, should throw 100% of their support behind the Democratic nominee for president.
I mean, there's a decent change that we could get Citizens United overturned if a Democrat wins and a few of the right right-wing justices die in the next 4 years. How awesome would that be?
posted by Aizkolari at 11:19 AM on December 22, 2015 [7 favorites]
Do what you want in the primaries, but please, please, please do vote for her in the general. The importance of the Supreme Court means that anyone remotely liberal, whether they support Clinton, Sanders, O'Malley, or Jill Stein, should throw 100% of their support behind the Democratic nominee for president.
I mean, there's a decent change that we could get Citizens United overturned if a Democrat wins and a few of the right right-wing justices die in the next 4 years. How awesome would that be?
posted by Aizkolari at 11:19 AM on December 22, 2015 [7 favorites]
The day Trump apologizes for the many, many, much more heinous and damaging things he's made up about other people/entire countries/entire genders is the day I'll get upset about Clinton's ISIS remark.
The fact that this off-the-cuff slam, along with everything she has ever said, is getting treated like it needs to be picked apart and then investigated by a Congressional committee, is well, sadly typical.
She's running for President. Yes, people will watch every single thing she says.
posted by Drinky Die at 11:21 AM on December 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
The fact that this off-the-cuff slam, along with everything she has ever said, is getting treated like it needs to be picked apart and then investigated by a Congressional committee, is well, sadly typical.
She's running for President. Yes, people will watch every single thing she says.
posted by Drinky Die at 11:21 AM on December 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
Hillary Clinton should apologize to Trump. Making shit up and not apologizing for it is supposed to be Trump's routine, not hers.
No, Clinton did not say ISIS was making videos of Donald Trump
No, Clinton did not say ISIS was making videos of Donald Trump
[T]here's no need to make "ISIS videos" to spread the word about Donald Trump and Clinton never claimed they did. There's plenty of footage out there they can use to "show people" if they want to.posted by zombieflanders at 11:36 AM on December 22, 2015 [11 favorites]
And the experts all confirm that ISIS is definitely using Donald Trump's Islamophobia to recruit new members. It is highly unlikely that they aren't watching the videos that exist of Trump being the bigoted ass he is (as well as his bigoted American followers) to gin up jihad.
The press is trying very hard to be "even-handed" in their fact checks and it's hard because the Republicans are lying so prolifically this year. And they love the narrative of Clinton the lying witch in any case. But this Politifact check is wrong. She didn't say what they claimed she said.
Clinton's support for the war is not the deal-breaker for me. I could be brought to believe that she's changed a great deal since then, and now sincerely regrets the mode of thought that led her to do that, but in fact the opposite is true. It is deeply disturbing to me that the one class of opinion she seems to actually hold in earnest (which, by the way, I don't think she's exceptional in her mendacity, she's a politician) is that we engage in more foreign aggression. That is so fucked up. I'd vote for her if I lived in a swing state because I don't think it's fair to the people who would experience active and severe consequences under a Republican president to do otherwise, but man, I can't help wonder what's going on with the people who can swallow that and actively root for her.
posted by invitapriore at 11:48 AM on December 22, 2015 [8 favorites]
posted by invitapriore at 11:48 AM on December 22, 2015 [8 favorites]
I would say "likability" has been a huge, if not THE, factor in the last what, 6 presidential elections? Seems a big deal to me.
When the electorate (by which I mean all of us, to varying degrees, not some hypothetical mouth-breathing other) has no appetite for information, no tolerance for complexity and no interest in philosophy, economics, history or political science, "likeability" is really all that's left.
she tells whoppers
As pessimistic as he was, Orwell would have been horrified to learn that the 21st Century's political dictionary was written by none other than John Stossel.
posted by klanawa at 11:48 AM on December 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
When the electorate (by which I mean all of us, to varying degrees, not some hypothetical mouth-breathing other) has no appetite for information, no tolerance for complexity and no interest in philosophy, economics, history or political science, "likeability" is really all that's left.
she tells whoppers
As pessimistic as he was, Orwell would have been horrified to learn that the 21st Century's political dictionary was written by none other than John Stossel.
posted by klanawa at 11:48 AM on December 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
Read post, loved and agreed with it, came here studiously ignoring every comment to write this. Still saw a few comments by accident. Still consider it a victory.
Which is how I'm going to treat all eight years of her presidency.
posted by jragon at 11:54 AM on December 22, 2015 [12 favorites]
Which is how I'm going to treat all eight years of her presidency.
posted by jragon at 11:54 AM on December 22, 2015 [12 favorites]
No, Clinton did not say ISIS was making videos of Donald Trump
That's an absolutely laughable dodge. The Tweets cited don't even come close to justifying Hillary's claim that he is ISIS's best recruiter or that ISIS is showing people videos of him as a recruitment tool. It sounds much more like they heard the remarks the same place the rest of us did, in the media.
The tweets were culled by SITE Intelligence. Below is sampling of tweets they found during a three day time period (Dec 9 – 12).
SITE Intelligence Group: “Following Donald Trump’s statement to ban Muslims from entering the U.S., jihadists on Twitter expressed a lack of surprise, characterizing his proposal as Western oppression against Muslims. The following statements were made from December 9-12, 2015.
· User “Ali Abdillahi,” an Islamic State (IS) supporter, was nonplussed by Trump’s statement, claiming most non-Muslims likely share the same sentiment:
o “Why are people shocked with trump he only said what most kufar [disbelievers] are afraid of saying.”
· A fighter for al-Nusra Front, “Abu Saeed Al-Halabi,” found Trump’s statement hypocritical and proposed a rhetorical “deal” with Trump in the context of U.S. foreign policy:
o “I agree with Trumps muslim remarks if the Americans stop invading muslim countries. We have a deal here Mr. Trump?”
· A pro-IS account under the name “Warrior” made a similar request of Trump. He argued if Muslims are banned in the U.S., they should be allowed to make travel to Muslim countries:
o “i wonder if president trump will allow muslims to leave the US for dalwah. he hates muslims so much, allow those that want to leave and live with other committed brothers and sisters without kuffar oppression. put your money where your mouth is Trump. more likely he will throw all muslims in US in prison as matter of “national security” #cowards”
· Furthermore, the account of “Amriki Mujaher,” who implies himself to be American turned IS fighter, seemed to make a similar message:
o “You can be a good Muslim in America if you join the army or if you interpret for the troops. Otherwise, Trump has a point about you”
· ISIS supporter, @bintemergent: pleez Massa Trump doan trow i inta dat briarpatch! #IS #refugee strat &GreyZone destructionhttp://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/nov/15/terrorists-isis
posted by Drinky Die at 12:31 PM on December 22, 2015
That's an absolutely laughable dodge. The Tweets cited don't even come close to justifying Hillary's claim that he is ISIS's best recruiter or that ISIS is showing people videos of him as a recruitment tool. It sounds much more like they heard the remarks the same place the rest of us did, in the media.
The tweets were culled by SITE Intelligence. Below is sampling of tweets they found during a three day time period (Dec 9 – 12).
SITE Intelligence Group: “Following Donald Trump’s statement to ban Muslims from entering the U.S., jihadists on Twitter expressed a lack of surprise, characterizing his proposal as Western oppression against Muslims. The following statements were made from December 9-12, 2015.
· User “Ali Abdillahi,” an Islamic State (IS) supporter, was nonplussed by Trump’s statement, claiming most non-Muslims likely share the same sentiment:
o “Why are people shocked with trump he only said what most kufar [disbelievers] are afraid of saying.”
· A fighter for al-Nusra Front, “Abu Saeed Al-Halabi,” found Trump’s statement hypocritical and proposed a rhetorical “deal” with Trump in the context of U.S. foreign policy:
o “I agree with Trumps muslim remarks if the Americans stop invading muslim countries. We have a deal here Mr. Trump?”
· A pro-IS account under the name “Warrior” made a similar request of Trump. He argued if Muslims are banned in the U.S., they should be allowed to make travel to Muslim countries:
o “i wonder if president trump will allow muslims to leave the US for dalwah. he hates muslims so much, allow those that want to leave and live with other committed brothers and sisters without kuffar oppression. put your money where your mouth is Trump. more likely he will throw all muslims in US in prison as matter of “national security” #cowards”
· Furthermore, the account of “Amriki Mujaher,” who implies himself to be American turned IS fighter, seemed to make a similar message:
o “You can be a good Muslim in America if you join the army or if you interpret for the troops. Otherwise, Trump has a point about you”
· ISIS supporter, @bintemergent: pleez Massa Trump doan trow i inta dat briarpatch! #IS #refugee strat &GreyZone destructionhttp://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/nov/15/terrorists-isis
posted by Drinky Die at 12:31 PM on December 22, 2015
It’s difficult to imagine a 74-year-old woman who yells all of her opinions and refuses to brush her hair being embraced by pundits for her “refreshing” and “authentic” look. American culture does not exactly appreciate the image of the “authentic” older woman, but boy does it hate the older woman who strains to stay relevant. Sanders is six years Hillary’s senior, but somehow, the cool looks better on him.
I don't know what this says about me, but I just cannot stand the sloppy look of so many men on the left, from Bernie Sanders on down to a lot of my coworkers. Going to the barber, or maybe actually combing one's hair, buying clothes that fit, visiting the dentist regularly - these are all the most basic elements of looking professional.
I also wish the pundits would hold male and female candidates to the same standard - but I'd move the bar in the opposite direction than many, & start holding men to the same (higher) standards as women.
posted by kanewai at 12:48 PM on December 22, 2015 [6 favorites]
I don't know what this says about me, but I just cannot stand the sloppy look of so many men on the left, from Bernie Sanders on down to a lot of my coworkers. Going to the barber, or maybe actually combing one's hair, buying clothes that fit, visiting the dentist regularly - these are all the most basic elements of looking professional.
I also wish the pundits would hold male and female candidates to the same standard - but I'd move the bar in the opposite direction than many, & start holding men to the same (higher) standards as women.
posted by kanewai at 12:48 PM on December 22, 2015 [6 favorites]
We must not underestimate the impact of the 23+ year Hillary Hate Machine of the right wing. It goes beyond right-wing true believers. As I've said in other threads, hating on Hillary has become that easy concession people make to their fire-breathing conservative relatives at Thanksgiving and Christmas and the ones they have to work with in the office. "Okay, it's not that I like her..." or "I wish we had someone other than Hillary" or whatever.
It happens. And it has an impact.
Hillary was bound to get a lot of this, too, because her involvement at the top--at that Presidential level--goes back so far. She was basically the first woman to take on open, unambiguous involvement at the executive level, and the right hated her for it. They will always hate her for it. Doesn't matter that she was the First Lady and there by virtue of marriage rather than elections or whatever. She took on a policy role. SHE. A WOMAN. How dare she.
And to be very blunt, Fiorina and other women shooting that high in politics owe Hillary a huge debt for blazing that trail, whether they want to admit it or not.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 1:03 PM on December 22, 2015 [7 favorites]
It happens. And it has an impact.
Hillary was bound to get a lot of this, too, because her involvement at the top--at that Presidential level--goes back so far. She was basically the first woman to take on open, unambiguous involvement at the executive level, and the right hated her for it. They will always hate her for it. Doesn't matter that she was the First Lady and there by virtue of marriage rather than elections or whatever. She took on a policy role. SHE. A WOMAN. How dare she.
And to be very blunt, Fiorina and other women shooting that high in politics owe Hillary a huge debt for blazing that trail, whether they want to admit it or not.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 1:03 PM on December 22, 2015 [7 favorites]
Fantastic piece. Thanks for this. This helped me reconsider where some of my reluctance to loudly support Hillary is coming from.
I used to be very lukewarm on her, but since then I've worked with a bunch of people who had incidentally worked under her at the Department of State (not her appointees) and my respect for her has risen tenfold out of the things I hear about how she ran the joint. I get the valid reasons why people dislike her politics, but I wish everyone who complains about her being "too ambitious" or "too fake" or "too (whatever)" get to read this and really think about it.
I'm reminded of a friend who said he feels okay about Hillary, but "wishes she would stop campaigning on being a woman." Nevermind that "being a woman" was enough to disqualify people from being president for 239 years and counting, no, women should just uncritically accept that massive liability that is their gender, stay silent, and never use any part of it to their advantage. Or else they're being unsportsmanlike.
That sentimenet is one I hear all the time from Bernie Sanders supporters. And I love the man, and I'm very glad he's pushing this conversation to the left, and I think his politics are on point. But jesus, he has a HUGE continent of bro-y, reddit-y supporters who feel very comfortable expressing their racist and misogynist thoughts. Fuck those guys.
posted by Solon and Thanks at 1:29 PM on December 22, 2015 [30 favorites]
I used to be very lukewarm on her, but since then I've worked with a bunch of people who had incidentally worked under her at the Department of State (not her appointees) and my respect for her has risen tenfold out of the things I hear about how she ran the joint. I get the valid reasons why people dislike her politics, but I wish everyone who complains about her being "too ambitious" or "too fake" or "too (whatever)" get to read this and really think about it.
I'm reminded of a friend who said he feels okay about Hillary, but "wishes she would stop campaigning on being a woman." Nevermind that "being a woman" was enough to disqualify people from being president for 239 years and counting, no, women should just uncritically accept that massive liability that is their gender, stay silent, and never use any part of it to their advantage. Or else they're being unsportsmanlike.
That sentimenet is one I hear all the time from Bernie Sanders supporters. And I love the man, and I'm very glad he's pushing this conversation to the left, and I think his politics are on point. But jesus, he has a HUGE continent of bro-y, reddit-y supporters who feel very comfortable expressing their racist and misogynist thoughts. Fuck those guys.
posted by Solon and Thanks at 1:29 PM on December 22, 2015 [30 favorites]
he has a HUGE continent of bro-y, reddit-y supporters
this is a typo for "contingent" but now I'm picturing Manboy Continent, the awful counterpart to Crone Island.
posted by Solon and Thanks at 1:43 PM on December 22, 2015 [19 favorites]
this is a typo for "contingent" but now I'm picturing Manboy Continent, the awful counterpart to Crone Island.
posted by Solon and Thanks at 1:43 PM on December 22, 2015 [19 favorites]
I respect her many impressive accomplishments, but I don't particularly like her politics. And since she's a politician, that's what I'm going to judge her on. I will vote for her--maybe even campaign for her in some small way--should she get the nomination, but that is purely tactical on my part.
posted by soren_lorensen at 1:44 PM on December 22, 2015 [5 favorites]
posted by soren_lorensen at 1:44 PM on December 22, 2015 [5 favorites]
but that is purely tactical on my part.
Politics doesn't generally offer you a candidate whom you will agree with 100% of the time. Hell, even if you feel that way about Sanders, he might not win the nomination. The reverse can be said for Hillary, too; should Sanders win the nom, her supporters really need to suck it up and support him. Either of them are better than literally any and all of the Republican field.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 1:50 PM on December 22, 2015 [6 favorites]
Politics doesn't generally offer you a candidate whom you will agree with 100% of the time. Hell, even if you feel that way about Sanders, he might not win the nomination. The reverse can be said for Hillary, too; should Sanders win the nom, her supporters really need to suck it up and support him. Either of them are better than literally any and all of the Republican field.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 1:50 PM on December 22, 2015 [6 favorites]
Why are you ever not voting tactically? If you want to make change in the world, you need to use the power you have as a voter as effectually as possible. I don't give a crap whether I love a candidate or if I have some personal beef with them; I'll vote for them if I think that my vote will do the most to move things in the direction that I want things to go. There's too much at stake here to let personalities to get in the way of things.
posted by octothorpe at 2:50 PM on December 22, 2015 [12 favorites]
posted by octothorpe at 2:50 PM on December 22, 2015 [12 favorites]
That's exactly why I would vote for the Green Party candidate if Hillary Clinton were nominated. She's part of an organization that has made an active agenda of pushing the left out of American politics, and I oppose that.
posted by idiopath at 3:13 PM on December 22, 2015 [7 favorites]
posted by idiopath at 3:13 PM on December 22, 2015 [7 favorites]
15 is incrementalism. Hell, 22 is incrementalism.
Sure, for NY and SF. But this is a federal minimum wage so it also applies to all those fly-over places where cost of living is lower and the above is more than some established, middle-class people make an hour. Which is also a shame.
It's a starting point for the entire country, not just the big cities on the coast.
She's part of an organization that has made an active agenda of pushing the left out of American politics, and I oppose that.
Bernie Sanders, as the nominee, would also be member to said group. He would answer to the same congress and military industrial complex that Hillary would and that Obama does now.
posted by bgal81 at 3:19 PM on December 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
Sure, for NY and SF. But this is a federal minimum wage so it also applies to all those fly-over places where cost of living is lower and the above is more than some established, middle-class people make an hour. Which is also a shame.
It's a starting point for the entire country, not just the big cities on the coast.
She's part of an organization that has made an active agenda of pushing the left out of American politics, and I oppose that.
Bernie Sanders, as the nominee, would also be member to said group. He would answer to the same congress and military industrial complex that Hillary would and that Obama does now.
posted by bgal81 at 3:19 PM on December 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
The Tweets cited don't even come close to justifying Hillary's claim that he is ISIS's best recruiter or that ISIS is showing people videos of him as a recruitment tool.
I think she was being hyperbolic.
Actually, watching the clip, I think it was supposed to be a snarky comment but the delivery isn't there. But yeah. Is there some reason people thought Clinton was making a serious statement?
posted by bgal81 at 3:26 PM on December 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
I think she was being hyperbolic.
Actually, watching the clip, I think it was supposed to be a snarky comment but the delivery isn't there. But yeah. Is there some reason people thought Clinton was making a serious statement?
posted by bgal81 at 3:26 PM on December 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
The fact that it was an extremely serious accusation to accuse a rival of becoming the best recruiter for an organization committed to the mass murder of Americans. With the attack in California having just happened, ISIS is not a joking matter.
posted by Drinky Die at 3:30 PM on December 22, 2015
posted by Drinky Die at 3:30 PM on December 22, 2015
Thanks for posting this - I expected to skim the first para and it was so well-done I just kept reading. Excellent piece.
posted by joseph conrad is fully awesome at 3:31 PM on December 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by joseph conrad is fully awesome at 3:31 PM on December 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
The fact that it was an extremely serious accusation to accuse a rival of becoming the best recruiter for an organization committed to the mass murder of Americans. It's not a joking matter.
It's not a joking matter, but it's not really a fact-checkable matter, either. As pointed out above, I think it's universally taken as a given that ISIS uses the perception of a "war on Islam" by the United States as part of its propaganda. To the extent that videos of Donald Trump exist, whatever the source, they are part of what "they" "show" their target audience in order to try to radicalize them.
The claim that Trump is ISIS's best recruiter belongs in the same category of claims like "Obama/Bush is the worst President ever." It's a logical albeit absolutist conclusion based on your starting assumptions and values.
posted by AndrewInDC at 3:36 PM on December 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
It's not a joking matter, but it's not really a fact-checkable matter, either. As pointed out above, I think it's universally taken as a given that ISIS uses the perception of a "war on Islam" by the United States as part of its propaganda. To the extent that videos of Donald Trump exist, whatever the source, they are part of what "they" "show" their target audience in order to try to radicalize them.
The claim that Trump is ISIS's best recruiter belongs in the same category of claims like "Obama/Bush is the worst President ever." It's a logical albeit absolutist conclusion based on your starting assumptions and values.
posted by AndrewInDC at 3:36 PM on December 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
ISIS is not a joking matter.
Has someone told Larry Wilmore, John Oliver, Bill Maher, and Trevor Noah? Heck, has someone told Trump.
This entire "scandal" is bullshit and shows what is wrong with the American electorate today that crap like this is given any attention.
posted by bgal81 at 3:36 PM on December 22, 2015 [11 favorites]
Has someone told Larry Wilmore, John Oliver, Bill Maher, and Trevor Noah? Heck, has someone told Trump.
This entire "scandal" is bullshit and shows what is wrong with the American electorate today that crap like this is given any attention.
posted by bgal81 at 3:36 PM on December 22, 2015 [11 favorites]
To the extent that videos of Donald Trump exist, whatever the source, they are part of what "they" "show" their target audience in order to try to radicalize them.
The claim that Trump is ISIS's best recruiter belongs in the same category of claims like "Obama is the worst President ever." It's a logical conclusion based on your starting assumptions and values.
I think I'm going to enjoy another Clinton Presidency.
posted by Drinky Die at 3:38 PM on December 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
The claim that Trump is ISIS's best recruiter belongs in the same category of claims like "Obama is the worst President ever." It's a logical conclusion based on your starting assumptions and values.
I think I'm going to enjoy another Clinton Presidency.
posted by Drinky Die at 3:38 PM on December 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
Bernie Sanders, as the nominee, would also be member to said group.
Citation needed.
I draw a distinction between the compromises that are necessary to work in national politics and actively pushing the discourse into the court of the opponent. The DLC decided that the best way to fight the Republican push to the right was to push the Democratic party to the right and attempt to exclude leftist perspectives from the party. This alienates leftist voters and reduces their engagement in national politics. Bernie Sanders makes compromises to move his larger agenda. This is politics, and he is good at it. Hillary Clinton as part of the DLC has been actively trying to destroy leftism in US politics, and that's different.
posted by idiopath at 3:47 PM on December 22, 2015 [8 favorites]
Citation needed.
I draw a distinction between the compromises that are necessary to work in national politics and actively pushing the discourse into the court of the opponent. The DLC decided that the best way to fight the Republican push to the right was to push the Democratic party to the right and attempt to exclude leftist perspectives from the party. This alienates leftist voters and reduces their engagement in national politics. Bernie Sanders makes compromises to move his larger agenda. This is politics, and he is good at it. Hillary Clinton as part of the DLC has been actively trying to destroy leftism in US politics, and that's different.
posted by idiopath at 3:47 PM on December 22, 2015 [8 favorites]
She's part of an organization that has made an active agenda of pushing the left out of American politics, and I oppose that.
"It doesn't matter whether a cat is white or black, as long as it catches mice."
-Deng Xiao Ping
posted by FJT at 3:59 PM on December 22, 2015
"It doesn't matter whether a cat is white or black, as long as it catches mice."
-Deng Xiao Ping
posted by FJT at 3:59 PM on December 22, 2015
I appreciate the article but at this point it seems clear to me that there is literally no democrat that republicans won't absolutely lose their shit over. So if you're trying to find a democrat that can build bilateral consensus and work with the republicans, you're going to be in for a hard time.
posted by LastOfHisKind at 4:31 PM on December 22, 2015 [8 favorites]
posted by LastOfHisKind at 4:31 PM on December 22, 2015 [8 favorites]
I appreciate the article but at this point it seems clear to me that there is literally no democrat that republicans won't absolutely lose their shit over. So if you're trying to find a democrat that can build bilateral consensus and work with the republicans, you're going to be in for a hard time.
And yet, contrary to the very nature of spacetime/entropy/the laws of physics, I have seen multiple anecdotes of conservatives saying almost verbatim, "You know what, Bernie's actually pretty cool. I might vote for him if Trump gets the nomination."
Which is a statement I'd love to substantiate with examples but I haven't any in hand, just the small, delicate, perfect inkling of a feeling that maybe someday in my lifetime the people of this country could come together over a shared hatred of greed & corruption in politics in support of a bipartisan movement to dismantle the ruling class as it stands.
Which is a fantasy I will keep mostly to myself, because hope is dangerous thing to spread.
posted by an animate objects at 5:04 PM on December 22, 2015 [2 favorites]
And yet, contrary to the very nature of spacetime/entropy/the laws of physics, I have seen multiple anecdotes of conservatives saying almost verbatim, "You know what, Bernie's actually pretty cool. I might vote for him if Trump gets the nomination."
Which is a statement I'd love to substantiate with examples but I haven't any in hand, just the small, delicate, perfect inkling of a feeling that maybe someday in my lifetime the people of this country could come together over a shared hatred of greed & corruption in politics in support of a bipartisan movement to dismantle the ruling class as it stands.
Which is a fantasy I will keep mostly to myself, because hope is dangerous thing to spread.
posted by an animate objects at 5:04 PM on December 22, 2015 [2 favorites]
ISIS is not a joking matter.
yes it is
posted by Rustic Etruscan at 5:15 PM on December 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
yes it is
posted by Rustic Etruscan at 5:15 PM on December 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
Context.
posted by Drinky Die at 5:31 PM on December 22, 2015
posted by Drinky Die at 5:31 PM on December 22, 2015
She's a centrist poster child of the DLC, if you are on the left she is to your right.
Hillary has been trying to position herself as a friend of the middle class and an advocate for the working man for years even though her record on these issues is abominable.
Hillary belongs to a movement that has been incrementally pushing the Democratic party to the right.
it'll come from leftists forcing her to the left rather than from Clinton herself.
I find these statements utterly baffling, and as often as I've asked, no one has ever been able to give me a good rationale for them. By all available metrics, including her voting record, public statements, policies, and fundraising, she is a solid far-left liberal dirty hippy- just as liberal as Liz Warren.
"Clinton was one of the most liberal members during her time in the Senate. According to an analysis of roll call votes by Voteview, Clinton’s record was more liberal than 70 percent of Democrats in her final term in the Senate. She was more liberal than 85 percent of all members. Her 2008 rival in the Democratic presidential primary, Barack Obama, was nearby with a record more liberal than 82 percent of all members — he was not more liberal than Clinton.
Clinton also has a history of very liberal public statements. Clinton rates as a “hard core liberal” per the OnTheIssues.org scale. She is as liberal as Elizabeth Warren and barely more moderate than Bernie Sanders. And while Obama is also a “hard core liberal,” Clinton again was rated as more liberal than Obama."
Hillary Clinton Was Liberal. Hillary Clinton Is Liberal. (FiveThirtyEight)
As far as likeability, that has never been a problem for me. I am only six years younger than she is. I lived through and dealt with some of the same shit she did, being a 2nd wave feminist and the first woman in most jobs I've had. My respect and admiration for her ability to keep on standing up and fighting are endless. I LOVE Hillary. She is my hero.
posted by caryatid at 6:43 PM on December 22, 2015 [19 favorites]
Hillary has been trying to position herself as a friend of the middle class and an advocate for the working man for years even though her record on these issues is abominable.
Hillary belongs to a movement that has been incrementally pushing the Democratic party to the right.
it'll come from leftists forcing her to the left rather than from Clinton herself.
I find these statements utterly baffling, and as often as I've asked, no one has ever been able to give me a good rationale for them. By all available metrics, including her voting record, public statements, policies, and fundraising, she is a solid far-left liberal dirty hippy- just as liberal as Liz Warren.
"Clinton was one of the most liberal members during her time in the Senate. According to an analysis of roll call votes by Voteview, Clinton’s record was more liberal than 70 percent of Democrats in her final term in the Senate. She was more liberal than 85 percent of all members. Her 2008 rival in the Democratic presidential primary, Barack Obama, was nearby with a record more liberal than 82 percent of all members — he was not more liberal than Clinton.
Clinton also has a history of very liberal public statements. Clinton rates as a “hard core liberal” per the OnTheIssues.org scale. She is as liberal as Elizabeth Warren and barely more moderate than Bernie Sanders. And while Obama is also a “hard core liberal,” Clinton again was rated as more liberal than Obama."
Hillary Clinton Was Liberal. Hillary Clinton Is Liberal. (FiveThirtyEight)
As far as likeability, that has never been a problem for me. I am only six years younger than she is. I lived through and dealt with some of the same shit she did, being a 2nd wave feminist and the first woman in most jobs I've had. My respect and admiration for her ability to keep on standing up and fighting are endless. I LOVE Hillary. She is my hero.
posted by caryatid at 6:43 PM on December 22, 2015 [19 favorites]
By all available metrics, including her voting record, public statements, policies, and fundraising, she is a solid far-left liberal dirty hippy- just as liberal as Liz Warren. (Who, BTW, was a Republican up until 1995).
That's not close to what someone like Can't Tip A Buick considers "far left." I do think people's ideas about the degree of her leftishness sometimes confuse her with Bill though.
posted by atoxyl at 6:49 PM on December 22, 2015 [3 favorites]
That's not close to what someone like Can't Tip A Buick considers "far left." I do think people's ideas about the degree of her leftishness sometimes confuse her with Bill though.
posted by atoxyl at 6:49 PM on December 22, 2015 [3 favorites]
I don't really care to get to know Bernie or what Bernie stands for, because I want so badly for a woman to be president (well, not Sarah Palin, but someone worthwhile), and I want Hillary to get it because she's been through a billion layers of hell and it would just be so damn awesome if she did. And given how amazingly terrible the opposing side candidates are, heck, it might happen! (I just loved the SNL skit with the two Hillarys.) Which makes me want to squeal.
Go, Hillary, go!
posted by jenfullmoon at 9:13 PM on December 22, 2015 [4 favorites]
Go, Hillary, go!
posted by jenfullmoon at 9:13 PM on December 22, 2015 [4 favorites]
With all due respect to Can't Tip A Buick, what makes him the arbiter of liberalism?
Greg Nog, no one said we were past it. They said it was not as important to a presidential candidacy as it was eight years ago, and this is objectively true.
And I have to say it's amusing how the attitudes in the article are being borne out here. Saying you love Hillary feels like a subversive act, but it shouldn't.
posted by caryatid at 9:36 PM on December 22, 2015 [4 favorites]
Greg Nog, no one said we were past it. They said it was not as important to a presidential candidacy as it was eight years ago, and this is objectively true.
And I have to say it's amusing how the attitudes in the article are being borne out here. Saying you love Hillary feels like a subversive act, but it shouldn't.
posted by caryatid at 9:36 PM on December 22, 2015 [4 favorites]
Greg Nog, no one said we were past it. They said it was not as important to a presidential candidacy as it was eight years ago, and this is objectively true.
I think that objective measurement would be worth explaining to veterans and children who will be paying off the war, as well as to victims, perhaps especially those people.
posted by a lungful of dragon at 9:54 PM on December 22, 2015 [4 favorites]
I think that objective measurement would be worth explaining to veterans and children who will be paying off the war, as well as to victims, perhaps especially those people.
posted by a lungful of dragon at 9:54 PM on December 22, 2015 [4 favorites]
OK, here's the thing, Hillary is center/right. All of you people confusing the center with the left need to do some reading. Those of us on the far left have a hard time with both of those things. I'd like to see a candidate that was actually on the
left. Not left in comparison to Cruz. That's why I want Bernie. Does that mean I won't vote for Hillary if she's nominated? Let's not be silly. I would happily help put Hillary in the White House again, this time as President. Still, I'd prefer a liberal.
posted by evilDoug at 10:39 PM on December 22, 2015 [5 favorites]
left. Not left in comparison to Cruz. That's why I want Bernie. Does that mean I won't vote for Hillary if she's nominated? Let's not be silly. I would happily help put Hillary in the White House again, this time as President. Still, I'd prefer a liberal.
posted by evilDoug at 10:39 PM on December 22, 2015 [5 favorites]
This is a good time to obnoxiously suggest that everyone (in the whole world) look up the difference between "leftist" and "liberal." It will obviate a number of recurring discussions!
(Sorry this ongoing talking past one another is a pet peeve)
posted by atoxyl at 11:18 PM on December 22, 2015 [4 favorites]
(Sorry this ongoing talking past one another is a pet peeve)
posted by atoxyl at 11:18 PM on December 22, 2015 [4 favorites]
Ah come on. She is doubling down on US intervention worldwide and refuses to see the consequences of such actions. Iraq, Libya and now Syria. How many more places should US engage in destabilizing?
posted by asra at 11:25 PM on December 22, 2015 [6 favorites]
posted by asra at 11:25 PM on December 22, 2015 [6 favorites]
The bro-y support put me right out of his campaign. The awful things they said about Hillary. And I love Bernie and only mostly like Hillary.
Hillary will be a good president, like Obama has been. I know liberals like to hate Obama, but he's done a hell of a lot. And Hillary will, too.
Still voting Bernie in the primary!
posted by persona au gratin at 2:15 AM on December 23, 2015 [3 favorites]
Hillary will be a good president, like Obama has been. I know liberals like to hate Obama, but he's done a hell of a lot. And Hillary will, too.
Still voting Bernie in the primary!
posted by persona au gratin at 2:15 AM on December 23, 2015 [3 favorites]
It's not clear to me that Hillary should be read as a hippie-punching DLC type. Maybe she is, but I don't think we have sufficient evidence to say she is.
And frankly the party has shifted leftward such that it'd be silly for her to try to govern that way.
posted by persona au gratin at 2:25 AM on December 23, 2015 [1 favorite]
And frankly the party has shifted leftward such that it'd be silly for her to try to govern that way.
posted by persona au gratin at 2:25 AM on December 23, 2015 [1 favorite]
I had to stop following some pretty funny, pretty politically-astute people on Twitter because their criticism of Hillary and Hillary supporters crossed the line, with disturbing frequency, from "snark about these people" to "gang up on these supporters or anybody who likes these supporters, insult their looks or weight or faces, or joke about them dying". These were prominent Weird Twitterers at that, bona fide lefties, politically radical in a way I largely appreciate. And their behavior was a step or two removed from the #GamerGaters.
I know a few people in that group are MeFites here, and it bothers me immensely that they don't call their friends out when the conversation gets sexist and bullying. The porous line between "funny and incisive person" and "self-righteous jerk" is always an uncomfortable one. Maybe it's just me, but I feel it's more common among people for whom humorous out-down is considered an acceptable response to somebody voicing an opinion, odious or not. All it takes is for a person or group to decide that something's odious, and suddenly what's funny when you're in agreement becomes really nasty and alienating behavior. I love comedy and admire snark, but as time passes I grow warier and warier of the people who freely employ it, particularly when they're straight white men who consider themselves allies.
posted by rorgy at 4:33 AM on December 23, 2015 [8 favorites]
I know a few people in that group are MeFites here, and it bothers me immensely that they don't call their friends out when the conversation gets sexist and bullying. The porous line between "funny and incisive person" and "self-righteous jerk" is always an uncomfortable one. Maybe it's just me, but I feel it's more common among people for whom humorous out-down is considered an acceptable response to somebody voicing an opinion, odious or not. All it takes is for a person or group to decide that something's odious, and suddenly what's funny when you're in agreement becomes really nasty and alienating behavior. I love comedy and admire snark, but as time passes I grow warier and warier of the people who freely employ it, particularly when they're straight white men who consider themselves allies.
posted by rorgy at 4:33 AM on December 23, 2015 [8 favorites]
Any other Gilmore Girls fans think that Hillary Clinton comes off like a grown-up Paris Geller? And that Paris Geller is awesome?
posted by OnceUponATime at 5:49 AM on December 23, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by OnceUponATime at 5:49 AM on December 23, 2015 [3 favorites]
And their behavior was a step or two removed from the #GamerGaters.
I was thinking more about Sady Doyle's piece last night and realized how much it reminded me of a list (was it in Harper's?) of traits police find suspicious, and use as justifications for further questioning: Makes eye contact. Fails to make eye contact. Sweats. Doesn't sweat. Fiddles with fingers. Holds hands still.
that there is literally no democrat that republicans won't absolutely lose their shit over.
I don't disagree. But this way of losing their shit over any way that Hillary Clinton presents herself as a human being seems rooted in misogynistic objections to her existence. That's ugly, above and beyond the usual trash-talking. If Trump's rhetoric gives cover for his fans to express their bigotry and racism, then what permissions is this particular strain of anti-Hillaryism giving?
posted by MonkeyToes at 6:11 AM on December 23, 2015 [2 favorites]
I was thinking more about Sady Doyle's piece last night and realized how much it reminded me of a list (was it in Harper's?) of traits police find suspicious, and use as justifications for further questioning: Makes eye contact. Fails to make eye contact. Sweats. Doesn't sweat. Fiddles with fingers. Holds hands still.
that there is literally no democrat that republicans won't absolutely lose their shit over.
I don't disagree. But this way of losing their shit over any way that Hillary Clinton presents herself as a human being seems rooted in misogynistic objections to her existence. That's ugly, above and beyond the usual trash-talking. If Trump's rhetoric gives cover for his fans to express their bigotry and racism, then what permissions is this particular strain of anti-Hillaryism giving?
posted by MonkeyToes at 6:11 AM on December 23, 2015 [2 favorites]
Seriously the one thing that makes me uncomfortable about Hillary Clinton is her interventionist foreign policy. Iraq was a mistake, a huge one. But I can understand how one might make it... She was in the White House all through the nineties, starting in 1992. For her almost as much as for Bush, Saddam Hussein must have felt like a sore which had been festering for more than a decade by 2003. I think she, like Bush, must have been too close to the situation, wanting to "win" against this old enemy, not able to step back and think what war would mean in an abstract way, here. The thing is, she's admitted she was wrong, and Bush hasn't, nor has his brother... How often does any politician? That's big for me. And of courses, she is not culpable in the same degree Bush is.
And maybe she feels less reluctant to intervene than I do because she just knows a hell of a lot more than I do about what's actually going on out there in the world. This email from one of her subordinates at the State Department seems to suggest that her interventionism is principled. And my reluctance to intervene (like Donald Trump's?) is mostly based on not knowing things -- how can we know what will happen? How can we really know which side is in the right? But maybe it's just that I personally don't know because I haven't taken the time to try to figure it out. Are there any world class experts on foreign policy, on global affairs, who are significantly less interventionist than Hillary Clinton? I am seriously asking. I would like to read a critique of her policies from that point of view, from someone who is in the same league as her in terms of expertise.
posted by OnceUponATime at 6:36 AM on December 23, 2015 [3 favorites]
And maybe she feels less reluctant to intervene than I do because she just knows a hell of a lot more than I do about what's actually going on out there in the world. This email from one of her subordinates at the State Department seems to suggest that her interventionism is principled. And my reluctance to intervene (like Donald Trump's?) is mostly based on not knowing things -- how can we know what will happen? How can we really know which side is in the right? But maybe it's just that I personally don't know because I haven't taken the time to try to figure it out. Are there any world class experts on foreign policy, on global affairs, who are significantly less interventionist than Hillary Clinton? I am seriously asking. I would like to read a critique of her policies from that point of view, from someone who is in the same league as her in terms of expertise.
posted by OnceUponATime at 6:36 AM on December 23, 2015 [3 favorites]
OK, here's the thing, Hillary is center/right.
Here's the thing - not in the US and she's running in the US.
It doesn't really matter how far to the right she or Bernie "Yay Guns" Sanders would be considered in Canada and Sweden, because we're not Canada or Sweden, sadly. And yeah, I am lumping Sanders in with her because when they were in the Senate they voted the same way 93% of the time. The difference is night and later that night.
posted by bgal81 at 7:02 AM on December 23, 2015 [8 favorites]
Here's the thing - not in the US and she's running in the US.
It doesn't really matter how far to the right she or Bernie "Yay Guns" Sanders would be considered in Canada and Sweden, because we're not Canada or Sweden, sadly. And yeah, I am lumping Sanders in with her because when they were in the Senate they voted the same way 93% of the time. The difference is night and later that night.
posted by bgal81 at 7:02 AM on December 23, 2015 [8 favorites]
You know, on the unlikeability of an older women trying to stay relevant, I was thinking of a common sitcom trope of the ageing, once-beautiful, actress-singer-dancer mom (e.g. Grace's mom from Will & Grace), how the ridiculous fact, and the one that is seen as 'funny', is that this older woman still acts as if she were desirable, when, obviously, who could desire or admire an older woman, even if she's cute, and funny, and can sing and dance, etc., she's seen as slightly pathetic for refusing to settle into 'dignified' old-ladyhood, dress drably, be less loud, etc., whereas an older man who's talented and flirty is seen as charming and sexy.
Some of that is in play here.
posted by signal at 7:16 AM on December 23, 2015 [5 favorites]
Some of that is in play here.
posted by signal at 7:16 AM on December 23, 2015 [5 favorites]
> I think the first female head of state was a Communist.
dammit, don't do that to me, I don't have enough time to spend all day reading about communism in Tuva, and now I wanna spend all day reading about communism in Tuva.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 10:02 AM on December 23, 2015 [2 favorites]
dammit, don't do that to me, I don't have enough time to spend all day reading about communism in Tuva, and now I wanna spend all day reading about communism in Tuva.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 10:02 AM on December 23, 2015 [2 favorites]
Tactical voting; voting with your feet; other diversions.
The left and right wings of our political system belong to the same bird. The bird, having only two heads, doesn't mind if you chop one or the other off, because one head will always be there to bite you on the ass while the other grows back.
We are willing to vote for the least opprobrious candidate on the theory that maybe, sooner or later, things will improve--no justification actually exists for this hope, it's just a theory coming to us in our dreams, while we gradually come around to the realization that we never were the country we used to be. The joke is lost on us.
Hillary is a banner waver for the circus, true, but those other guys are demons at the gates of Hell. On the way to Perdition, I guess we may at least console ourselves that we finally elected a Black man to the Highest Office In The Land, and I suppose it would be a feather in our hats if we get around to electing a woman.
We don't get to vote for the Koch brothers, International Pharma-complexes, and such, I guess is the point of it all. We get to spin round and round nipping at the cuffs of the movers, ptiffing spit wads at the shakers, and wishing their candidates evil or well with effectively equal results.
Humbug.
posted by mule98J at 10:08 AM on December 23, 2015 [2 favorites]
The left and right wings of our political system belong to the same bird. The bird, having only two heads, doesn't mind if you chop one or the other off, because one head will always be there to bite you on the ass while the other grows back.
We are willing to vote for the least opprobrious candidate on the theory that maybe, sooner or later, things will improve--no justification actually exists for this hope, it's just a theory coming to us in our dreams, while we gradually come around to the realization that we never were the country we used to be. The joke is lost on us.
Hillary is a banner waver for the circus, true, but those other guys are demons at the gates of Hell. On the way to Perdition, I guess we may at least console ourselves that we finally elected a Black man to the Highest Office In The Land, and I suppose it would be a feather in our hats if we get around to electing a woman.
We don't get to vote for the Koch brothers, International Pharma-complexes, and such, I guess is the point of it all. We get to spin round and round nipping at the cuffs of the movers, ptiffing spit wads at the shakers, and wishing their candidates evil or well with effectively equal results.
Humbug.
posted by mule98J at 10:08 AM on December 23, 2015 [2 favorites]
It really must be nice to have the sort of privilege - whether it be white or male or heterosexual or class or cis or whatever - to think it's all the same.
posted by bgal81 at 10:35 AM on December 23, 2015 [10 favorites]
posted by bgal81 at 10:35 AM on December 23, 2015 [10 favorites]
Did you ever notice how, the triter and more simplistic the worldview a person holds is, the loftier and more convoluted their "poetic" articulations of it become?
posted by rorgy at 10:48 AM on December 23, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by rorgy at 10:48 AM on December 23, 2015 [4 favorites]
This is a good time to obnoxiously suggest that everyone (in the whole world) look up the difference between "leftist" and "liberal." It will obviate a number of recurring discussions!
Uhhh yeah sorry for contributing pretty heavily for that. The distinction between left and liberal is important and useful, especially now that Sanders has put at least the rhetoric of leftism on the table, but it is I admit obnoxious when um a certain untippable somewhat old fashioned American sedan launches into critiques of liberalism from the left without making it clear up-front that that's what's going on.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 10:51 AM on December 23, 2015
Uhhh yeah sorry for contributing pretty heavily for that. The distinction between left and liberal is important and useful, especially now that Sanders has put at least the rhetoric of leftism on the table, but it is I admit obnoxious when um a certain untippable somewhat old fashioned American sedan launches into critiques of liberalism from the left without making it clear up-front that that's what's going on.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 10:51 AM on December 23, 2015
I think it's also kind of privileged to unabashedly cheer for a candidate who intends to implement policies that will unnecessarily kill civilians in Syria, Iraq and god knows where else. I think the "lol their all the same" rhetoric is dumb for similar reasons, but if there's one thing the mainstream left and the mainstream right share in the US it's that they mostly don't give a fuck about the lives of people who don't live here, at least not ahead of liking the cut of someone's jib or whatever.
posted by invitapriore at 12:08 PM on December 23, 2015 [11 favorites]
posted by invitapriore at 12:08 PM on December 23, 2015 [11 favorites]
Everything is complicated, true. Context can be overwhelming. But nothing significant ever has changed without redefining the paradigm. Women vote and people are no longer chattel. Civil rights became indexed by race, gender, ethnic diversity. This happened by virtue of those who were courageous enough to step outside the box with their thinking, then show up at the demonstrations. People attended seminars on re-thinking the paradigm in order to advance their cause. Brotherhood, sisterhood is powerful, right? People got hit with clubs and bitten by dogs, lost their jobs, lost their lives, because they didn't accept the bullshit coming at them from the left and right. All this for a minor advancement, and we still have a long way to go. Which political party ought to get the credit for this?
Following roads that lead to Rome get you only to Rome. If you think our political power is invested in the two primary political parties, or their representatives, maybe it would be useful to notice where dogma and trite reside in your universe.
Obama was my hero. He tried and failed to meet his stated aspirations. It wasn't only his fault. But Gitmo is still inhabited. Drones are creating a new paradigm for warfare--out of sight, no incoming caskets. Hidden powers fuel our economy and drive laws and regulations. Hey, they now want to fix up a censor for the Internet here in America. I don't see a disillusionment with the two-party system as a simplistic stance.
posted by mule98J at 12:57 PM on December 23, 2015 [3 favorites]
Following roads that lead to Rome get you only to Rome. If you think our political power is invested in the two primary political parties, or their representatives, maybe it would be useful to notice where dogma and trite reside in your universe.
Obama was my hero. He tried and failed to meet his stated aspirations. It wasn't only his fault. But Gitmo is still inhabited. Drones are creating a new paradigm for warfare--out of sight, no incoming caskets. Hidden powers fuel our economy and drive laws and regulations. Hey, they now want to fix up a censor for the Internet here in America. I don't see a disillusionment with the two-party system as a simplistic stance.
posted by mule98J at 12:57 PM on December 23, 2015 [3 favorites]
Oh my god when I just now briefly gave into my desire to read about communism in Tuva, I saw that the anthem of the Tuvan People's Republic was the Tuvan translation of the Internationale, and when I went looking on youtube for recordings of the Internationale in Tuvan, I found that Huun Huur Tu (the internationally famous Tuvan throat singing group) has recorded a version.
This is hands-down my new favorite thing.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 1:23 PM on December 23, 2015 [5 favorites]
This is hands-down my new favorite thing.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 1:23 PM on December 23, 2015 [5 favorites]
Tuva gets Huun Huur Tu and America gets Bruce Springsteen. There is no God.
posted by rorgy at 1:56 PM on December 23, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by rorgy at 1:56 PM on December 23, 2015 [2 favorites]
In 2008 it was well past time for this country to have either an African-American or a woman as president. It's still well past time for a woman. Sure it'll stir up a shit-storm of sexism that will absolutely leave this country reeking for years, just like Obama's tenure stirred up the racism. Tough shit. Personally, I think Trump's campaign is the last desperate lunge for the idiocracy, for everyone in America that is stupid, afraid, stupid, angry, stupid, racist, stupid and misogynist. They're in their death throes and this is their last stand (for the presidency, they'll battle for congressional seats and state houses for far longer). But the world is leaving them behind and this election will be the line in the sand.
I'm not a Hillary fan but I will stand tall in the booth next November to punch the ballot.
Let's keep these things in mind for those planning on not voting if Sanders doesn't get the nom. Would you rather have Trump with his finger on the nuclear trigger? Would you rather see the Supreme Court appointments of Ted Cruz? Would you like to see Rudio rubber-stamping every bad bill Paul Ryan sends his way? Priorities and pragmatism folks. Get out the vote and save our asses.
One last thing. Has anyone noticed that Hillary is holding back her biggest weapon? No one since JFK/RFK could stir up the electorate, speechify and rally, slit the opposition's throat with a thumb in the air and a smile on his face like Bill. I can't wait until Hillary lifts the gate and sets him loose on the campaign trail, especially against lying liars like Trump or Cruz. It's going to be the greatest political theater ever when the Big Dawg gets let off his leash.
posted by Ber at 4:22 PM on December 23, 2015 [2 favorites]
I'm not a Hillary fan but I will stand tall in the booth next November to punch the ballot.
Let's keep these things in mind for those planning on not voting if Sanders doesn't get the nom. Would you rather have Trump with his finger on the nuclear trigger? Would you rather see the Supreme Court appointments of Ted Cruz? Would you like to see Rudio rubber-stamping every bad bill Paul Ryan sends his way? Priorities and pragmatism folks. Get out the vote and save our asses.
One last thing. Has anyone noticed that Hillary is holding back her biggest weapon? No one since JFK/RFK could stir up the electorate, speechify and rally, slit the opposition's throat with a thumb in the air and a smile on his face like Bill. I can't wait until Hillary lifts the gate and sets him loose on the campaign trail, especially against lying liars like Trump or Cruz. It's going to be the greatest political theater ever when the Big Dawg gets let off his leash.
posted by Ber at 4:22 PM on December 23, 2015 [2 favorites]
"Both parties are the same" is obviously wrong. At some point, though, the degree to which both parties are beholden to rich people's money, which draws them both to the right, away from the interests of the working class and the poor of the United States, never mind the working class and the poor of the Third World, has to be a legitimate subject of discussion. We really can't concede our way to victory against the Right.
It frustrates me that we don't have a more left-wing Democratic Party, because we end up with elections in which left-wing criticism of the Democratic candidate must count for nothing because the Republican candidate is too bad to allow to take office. Still, I'm as much to blame for that state of affairs as anyone else who isn't agitating for and organizing a leftist opposition to their local liberal party, so I suppose I shouldn't complain.
posted by Rustic Etruscan at 4:39 PM on December 23, 2015 [4 favorites]
It frustrates me that we don't have a more left-wing Democratic Party, because we end up with elections in which left-wing criticism of the Democratic candidate must count for nothing because the Republican candidate is too bad to allow to take office. Still, I'm as much to blame for that state of affairs as anyone else who isn't agitating for and organizing a leftist opposition to their local liberal party, so I suppose I shouldn't complain.
posted by Rustic Etruscan at 4:39 PM on December 23, 2015 [4 favorites]
"At some point, though, the degree to which both parties are beholden to rich people's money, which draws them both to the right, away from the interests of the working class and the poor of the United States, never mind the working class and the poor of the Third World, has to be a legitimate subject of discussion. We really can't concede our way to victory against the Right."
I agree with you of course. This dynamic is similar to the way it looked to me, in about 1960, when first I began to think about a president other than Ike. I was about to hit my majority, and politics was beginning to seep into my world. In my case it was on the level of civil inequities, not international relations. I knew the difference between historical fact and the propaganda taught us in school: Columbus, the California missions, the Trail of Tears. At least, I was at the point of a dawning awareness. We--my family--were itinerant field workers by the time I was born, mostly uprooted from Oklahoma and Arkansas. We weren't total ignoramuses. Our family had stories, and they didn't sound much like the shit I was being fed in the 5th grade. By high school I was wary.
Living out west, I watched the civil rights movement rise. I had no experience with de facto segregation until, after high school, I went back east for further military training. I posted a comment on the Blue about how that worked out for me. But by then, even out west, I knew what China Town and Nigger town were. This was part of my world, in the wedge between whites and people of various colors. Even though I was white, I wasn't properly white. Never mind that part though, because it served only to give me a place to stand. I had a better view than some.
The clashes between segregationists and integrationists to me were like the supercollider ramming atoms to see what came of it. Bang. Out came women's activists and other reps. Lost in the heat were those who put their lives in the breach, and came out dead or scarred. I learned a new vocabulary, and even if I never did quite get on the bus, I surely cheered them on, because I wasn't "one of those guys" with my foot on anybody's neck. I did okay with this for a few years, until the gaps in my learning began to catch up with me. MeFi is a good place to fill in a few blind spots, for example.
So here we are, in the 21st century, running headlong down yet another road to Rome, while cake eaters look down on us and laugh. That's what I meant by wings on the same bird. Same bird, not same wings. Of course they are different, but they need to help each other if they want to move the bird. They do not have our best interests at heart. I can't do this without metaphors, don't have the talent. Our problem is not a few bad apples. We are drinking piss out of a bucket and calling wine.
Oh hell. I forgot about Bill. I can't resist him. Every time I hear him speak I want to do my happy dance. I would vote for him ten times in a row if I could.
posted by mule98J at 5:50 PM on December 23, 2015 [5 favorites]
I agree with you of course. This dynamic is similar to the way it looked to me, in about 1960, when first I began to think about a president other than Ike. I was about to hit my majority, and politics was beginning to seep into my world. In my case it was on the level of civil inequities, not international relations. I knew the difference between historical fact and the propaganda taught us in school: Columbus, the California missions, the Trail of Tears. At least, I was at the point of a dawning awareness. We--my family--were itinerant field workers by the time I was born, mostly uprooted from Oklahoma and Arkansas. We weren't total ignoramuses. Our family had stories, and they didn't sound much like the shit I was being fed in the 5th grade. By high school I was wary.
Living out west, I watched the civil rights movement rise. I had no experience with de facto segregation until, after high school, I went back east for further military training. I posted a comment on the Blue about how that worked out for me. But by then, even out west, I knew what China Town and Nigger town were. This was part of my world, in the wedge between whites and people of various colors. Even though I was white, I wasn't properly white. Never mind that part though, because it served only to give me a place to stand. I had a better view than some.
The clashes between segregationists and integrationists to me were like the supercollider ramming atoms to see what came of it. Bang. Out came women's activists and other reps. Lost in the heat were those who put their lives in the breach, and came out dead or scarred. I learned a new vocabulary, and even if I never did quite get on the bus, I surely cheered them on, because I wasn't "one of those guys" with my foot on anybody's neck. I did okay with this for a few years, until the gaps in my learning began to catch up with me. MeFi is a good place to fill in a few blind spots, for example.
So here we are, in the 21st century, running headlong down yet another road to Rome, while cake eaters look down on us and laugh. That's what I meant by wings on the same bird. Same bird, not same wings. Of course they are different, but they need to help each other if they want to move the bird. They do not have our best interests at heart. I can't do this without metaphors, don't have the talent. Our problem is not a few bad apples. We are drinking piss out of a bucket and calling wine.
Oh hell. I forgot about Bill. I can't resist him. Every time I hear him speak I want to do my happy dance. I would vote for him ten times in a row if I could.
posted by mule98J at 5:50 PM on December 23, 2015 [5 favorites]
The "nuclear trigger" and "but Supreme Court nominations!" thing comes out every time though. Of course I don't want Trump or Cruz in office. But frankly, I think the only thing "moderate" Democrats have going for them is the specter of the Republican Party; they like their status quo just the way it is and the scarier and crazier the GOP gets, the farther right they can slide and still be the bitter pill that people are willing to swallow.
As I've said here and elsewhere, I'm tired of playing to lose. (And also as I've said here and elsewhere, the system is rigged such that my precinct reliably votes Democrat anyway, and it probably doesn't matter that much to the state, and the state pretty much never matters to the election as a whole, and so it's safe for me to make the gesture of voting for a third-party candidate. Which is an unfortunate side effect.)
posted by Foosnark at 7:11 PM on December 23, 2015 [4 favorites]
As I've said here and elsewhere, I'm tired of playing to lose. (And also as I've said here and elsewhere, the system is rigged such that my precinct reliably votes Democrat anyway, and it probably doesn't matter that much to the state, and the state pretty much never matters to the election as a whole, and so it's safe for me to make the gesture of voting for a third-party candidate. Which is an unfortunate side effect.)
posted by Foosnark at 7:11 PM on December 23, 2015 [4 favorites]
Do what you want in the primaries, but please, please, please do vote for her in the general. The importance of the Supreme Court means that anyone remotely liberal, whether they support Clinton, Sanders, O'Malley, or Jill Stein, should throw 100% of their support behind the Democratic nominee for president.
I mean, there's a decent change that we could get Citizens United overturned if a Democrat wins and a few of the right right-wing justices die in the next 4 years. How awesome would that be?
Actually, my presidential vote will count more in the primaries than it will in the general, thank you very much electoral college and living in a solidly red state.
posted by LizBoBiz at 8:14 AM on December 28, 2015
I mean, there's a decent change that we could get Citizens United overturned if a Democrat wins and a few of the right right-wing justices die in the next 4 years. How awesome would that be?
Actually, my presidential vote will count more in the primaries than it will in the general, thank you very much electoral college and living in a solidly red state.
posted by LizBoBiz at 8:14 AM on December 28, 2015
I mean, there's a decent change that we could get Citizens United overturned if a Democrat wins and a few of the right right-wing justices die in the next 4 years. How awesome would that be?
I wish this wouldn't get brought up. The question in Citizens United was, literally, "Can the government prevent or punish the release of a film critical of a political candidate during the election season?" Of course the answer was, and will be, no.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 9:08 AM on December 28, 2015
I wish this wouldn't get brought up. The question in Citizens United was, literally, "Can the government prevent or punish the release of a film critical of a political candidate during the election season?" Of course the answer was, and will be, no.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 9:08 AM on December 28, 2015
Clinton, Sanders, and the “Progressive Give-Up” Formula (with Clinton’s Warning of a “Grand Bargain” to Come)
posted by the man of twists and turns at 9:55 AM on December 28, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by the man of twists and turns at 9:55 AM on December 28, 2015 [2 favorites]
I forgot about Bill. I can't resist him. Every time I hear him speak I want to do my happy dance. I would vote for him ten times in a row if I could.
Bill Clinton is the dictionary definition of the third-way, triangulatin', both-sides-do-it shit that you're decrying. Want to shake your fist at the two-headed bird? Realize one of those faces is Bill's. He didn't step outside the paradigm - he used it to sell you a shit sandwich and you're still here telling me how good it tasted.
How Hillary Clinton Went Undercover to Examine Race in Education
posted by the man of twists and turns at 2:37 PM on December 28, 2015
Bill Clinton is the dictionary definition of the third-way, triangulatin', both-sides-do-it shit that you're decrying. Want to shake your fist at the two-headed bird? Realize one of those faces is Bill's. He didn't step outside the paradigm - he used it to sell you a shit sandwich and you're still here telling me how good it tasted.
How Hillary Clinton Went Undercover to Examine Race in Education
posted by the man of twists and turns at 2:37 PM on December 28, 2015
« Older Spoofing Border Drones | "I Woke Up in a Parallel Universe" Newer »
This thread has been archived and is closed to new comments
posted by theodolite at 9:08 AM on December 22, 2015 [30 favorites]