She don’t say a word, and she won’t say a word, until you kiss the girl
January 25, 2016 10:33 AM Subscribe
"The plot of "The Little Mermaid," of course, involves Ariel literally losing her voice — but in the five Disney princess movies that followed, the women speak even less. On average in those films, men have three times as many lines as women."
This is a good analysis, and a troubling trend that fortunately seems to have been bucked a bit. However, I think Mulan should kind of get a pass. Aside that Mushu could have been female, the point of Mulan is that she's a woman infiltrating a men-only environment.
On the flip side, Aladdin should have been much more even. It's a story that takes place in a city. There's no story reason why there can't be a roughly 50-50 split.
posted by explosion at 10:43 AM on January 25, 2016 [5 favorites]
On the flip side, Aladdin should have been much more even. It's a story that takes place in a city. There's no story reason why there can't be a roughly 50-50 split.
posted by explosion at 10:43 AM on January 25, 2016 [5 favorites]
Frozen surprised me, until I remembered that yes you have two female leads but they're separated for most of the film, leaving the male supporting actors, the comic sidekick, and the antagonist to chatter at them and each other. I would love to dig deeper into a larger data set. How does Pixar do, I wonder?
I also wish there was a little more detail about how they counted song lyrics. As best I recall aren't most of the songs in Frozen sung by women? If they count those as lines then the non-singing conversations must be even more lopsided.
posted by Wretch729 at 10:49 AM on January 25, 2016 [2 favorites]
I also wish there was a little more detail about how they counted song lyrics. As best I recall aren't most of the songs in Frozen sung by women? If they count those as lines then the non-singing conversations must be even more lopsided.
posted by Wretch729 at 10:49 AM on January 25, 2016 [2 favorites]
No one's...
Keen like Gatson,
Sets the scene like Gaston,
No one tells you what you really mean like Gaston,
"I'm especially good at e-quiv-o-cating!"
Oh what a guy, Gaston!
posted by Navelgazer at 10:49 AM on January 25, 2016 [68 favorites]
Keen like Gatson,
Sets the scene like Gaston,
No one tells you what you really mean like Gaston,
"I'm especially good at e-quiv-o-cating!"
Oh what a guy, Gaston!
posted by Navelgazer at 10:49 AM on January 25, 2016 [68 favorites]
Desperate times can call for desperate measures, and in my case that has meant calling my 3 year old daughter's attention to HRH Catharina Amalia, crown princess of the Netherlands.
It's made it easier to get my kid to wear everyday winter clothing, but friends of mine report that princess Catharina's pictures have worked even further towards inoculating their kids, and I will repeat the treatment this weekend. (Prescription calls for a google image search on a laptop, with the patient on your lap.)
If this works, I owe King Willem a thank you card.
posted by ocschwar at 10:50 AM on January 25, 2016 [12 favorites]
It's made it easier to get my kid to wear everyday winter clothing, but friends of mine report that princess Catharina's pictures have worked even further towards inoculating their kids, and I will repeat the treatment this weekend. (Prescription calls for a google image search on a laptop, with the patient on your lap.)
If this works, I owe King Willem a thank you card.
posted by ocschwar at 10:50 AM on January 25, 2016 [12 favorites]
I'm kinda glad that Tangled and Brave made significant improvements in regards to % of dialogue even if Frozen made a bit of a backwards step. % of characters as female and voiced seemed pretty dismal across all three even if the women are the central part of all three movies.
Tangled has a very small number of voiced female characters (Rapunzel, Mother Gothel, the Queen) altogether which is pretty much dwarved by the ruffians at the Ugly Duckling by themselves.
Frozen has a big cast but yeah having Olaf be a complete chatterbox kinda skews the results and honestly they could've easily gone with a female comedian to do Olav instead of Josh Gad.
posted by vuron at 10:50 AM on January 25, 2016 [1 favorite]
Tangled has a very small number of voiced female characters (Rapunzel, Mother Gothel, the Queen) altogether which is pretty much dwarved by the ruffians at the Ugly Duckling by themselves.
Frozen has a big cast but yeah having Olaf be a complete chatterbox kinda skews the results and honestly they could've easily gone with a female comedian to do Olav instead of Josh Gad.
posted by vuron at 10:50 AM on January 25, 2016 [1 favorite]
Man, this really reminds me how much I wish Brave had been a better movie. :( Like, imagine How to Train your Dragon except genderflip the protagonist. Aaaargh.
Pixar did eventually make a IMO genuinely great movie with mainly female protagonists (Inside Out).
posted by selfnoise at 10:51 AM on January 25, 2016 [6 favorites]
Pixar did eventually make a IMO genuinely great movie with mainly female protagonists (Inside Out).
posted by selfnoise at 10:51 AM on January 25, 2016 [6 favorites]
There's no story reason why there can't be a roughly 50-50 split.
Economy of characters. Random Agrabah citizens aren't going to get nearly as many lines as the main characters: Aladdin, Jasmine, the Genie, the Sultan, Jafar, and Iago. Of those, the Genie and Iago are the only ones that could have been made women without resulting in a very different movie, but that alone would have gotten the movie to equal representation or very close to it.
posted by jedicus at 10:51 AM on January 25, 2016
Economy of characters. Random Agrabah citizens aren't going to get nearly as many lines as the main characters: Aladdin, Jasmine, the Genie, the Sultan, Jafar, and Iago. Of those, the Genie and Iago are the only ones that could have been made women without resulting in a very different movie, but that alone would have gotten the movie to equal representation or very close to it.
posted by jedicus at 10:51 AM on January 25, 2016
Now I'm imagining Ellen as the Genie and Robin Williams as Dory.
posted by selfnoise at 10:52 AM on January 25, 2016 [23 favorites]
posted by selfnoise at 10:52 AM on January 25, 2016 [23 favorites]
Yeah, a LOT of characters in Aladdin didn't need to be men. The Genie, Iago, hell, even Abu and the tiger were coded male even though they didn't speak. Really the only characters that absolutely HAD to be male were Jasmine's father, Jafar, and Aladdin, and for authenticity I guess the soldiers had to be men too?
Is it seen as too weird for men to have female sidekicks (Aladdin with a female genie) in a way it isn't for women to have male sidekicks (Mulan with a male dragon)?
posted by chainsofreedom at 10:53 AM on January 25, 2016 [4 favorites]
Is it seen as too weird for men to have female sidekicks (Aladdin with a female genie) in a way it isn't for women to have male sidekicks (Mulan with a male dragon)?
posted by chainsofreedom at 10:53 AM on January 25, 2016 [4 favorites]
For a film centered on a young woman, there’s an awful lot of talking by men.
The major plotpoint of this movie is that Ursula has taken Ariel's voice.
This is weak.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 10:55 AM on January 25, 2016
The major plotpoint of this movie is that Ursula has taken Ariel's voice.
This is weak.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 10:55 AM on January 25, 2016
Even though Aladdin is in the princess category of movie (and Jasmine is still considered a princess unlike Megara) Aladdin feels like a typical animated adventure movie aimed at boys with just the barest glimpse of a romantic subplot. In that regard I'd tend to group it with the Atlantis and Adventure Planet movies.
Still they could've done sooooo much more with Aladdin which other than the virtuoso performance of Robin Williams really doesn't have much that recommends it as a disney movie. I think my daughter watched it once and was honestly kinda bored by it.
posted by vuron at 10:56 AM on January 25, 2016 [2 favorites]
Still they could've done sooooo much more with Aladdin which other than the virtuoso performance of Robin Williams really doesn't have much that recommends it as a disney movie. I think my daughter watched it once and was honestly kinda bored by it.
posted by vuron at 10:56 AM on January 25, 2016 [2 favorites]
The major plotpoint of this movie is that Ursula has taken Ariel's voice.
This is weak.
That's the whole point of the article? In the movie where the female protagonist is literally mute for half the movie, there are still more women's lines in that movie than in the ones that follow.
posted by explosion at 10:57 AM on January 25, 2016 [36 favorites]
This is weak.
That's the whole point of the article? In the movie where the female protagonist is literally mute for half the movie, there are still more women's lines in that movie than in the ones that follow.
posted by explosion at 10:57 AM on January 25, 2016 [36 favorites]
This is a really interesting article. I don't know why some films would get "a pass" since they just analyzed Disney films from a certain time period and then tried to get some meaning out of the data. I think it's exactly the point that they don't handwave away certain characterizations or entire films because of circumstance or "historical accuracy."
posted by sweetkid at 10:57 AM on January 25, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by sweetkid at 10:57 AM on January 25, 2016 [1 favorite]
I think it may be worse than it seems. Shouldn't we also delete the protagonist's own words and evaluate these movies on everyone else's lines? At least in the stories where the main character is clearly a singular female one?
posted by SkinnerSan at 10:58 AM on January 25, 2016
posted by SkinnerSan at 10:58 AM on January 25, 2016
Yeah, I'd say a lot of screenwriters would whine that a female sidekick could confuse people as to who the love interest is. This is bunk, of course, but they'd say it anyway.
Really, the worst example of needlessly coding a character male in Aladdin is the magic carpet, who is referred to by the Genie as "Rug-man"
posted by Mr.Encyclopedia at 10:59 AM on January 25, 2016 [9 favorites]
Really, the worst example of needlessly coding a character male in Aladdin is the magic carpet, who is referred to by the Genie as "Rug-man"
posted by Mr.Encyclopedia at 10:59 AM on January 25, 2016 [9 favorites]
Now I'm imagining Ellen as the Genie and Robin Williams as Dory.
Mmm, that is interesting. The male Marlin with the female Dory as a sidekick. A quick look at the list of Disney movies on Wikipedia seems to indicate that it's the only movie that has this gender-flipped arrangement.
posted by chainsofreedom at 10:59 AM on January 25, 2016 [1 favorite]
Mmm, that is interesting. The male Marlin with the female Dory as a sidekick. A quick look at the list of Disney movies on Wikipedia seems to indicate that it's the only movie that has this gender-flipped arrangement.
posted by chainsofreedom at 10:59 AM on January 25, 2016 [1 favorite]
Oh, and Wreck-It Ralph. Male lead, female sidekick.
posted by chainsofreedom at 11:01 AM on January 25, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by chainsofreedom at 11:01 AM on January 25, 2016 [1 favorite]
Hrmm
Now I'm kinda visualizing Aladdin with the following changes.
Aladdin is actually a female that is masquerading as a male in order to survive Agrabah.
Jasmine is still a female princess trying to get out of the pampered life of a princess.
Instead of Jasmine's father trying to marry her off it's actually Jasmine's mother who is conforming to patriarchal values.
Iago is gone because fuck gilbert gottfried.
The genie is female.
Aladdin somehow assists Jasmine and Jasmine falls in love with Aladdin thinking that this girl is actually a boy. Aladdin finally reveals her gender. Maybe even uses a wish from the genie to change gender if we want to be really progressive.
Ohh this is so much fun.
posted by vuron at 11:01 AM on January 25, 2016 [11 favorites]
Now I'm kinda visualizing Aladdin with the following changes.
Aladdin is actually a female that is masquerading as a male in order to survive Agrabah.
Jasmine is still a female princess trying to get out of the pampered life of a princess.
Instead of Jasmine's father trying to marry her off it's actually Jasmine's mother who is conforming to patriarchal values.
Iago is gone because fuck gilbert gottfried.
The genie is female.
Aladdin somehow assists Jasmine and Jasmine falls in love with Aladdin thinking that this girl is actually a boy. Aladdin finally reveals her gender. Maybe even uses a wish from the genie to change gender if we want to be really progressive.
Ohh this is so much fun.
posted by vuron at 11:01 AM on January 25, 2016 [11 favorites]
That's the whole point of the article? In the movie where the female protagonist is literally mute for half the movie, there are still more women's lines in that movie than in the ones that follow.
That's an interesting point. I guess I don't really know if things like this have a substantial impact on viewers. Everyone my age (b. 1980) that I know was a huge fan of TLM from a feminist perspective.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 11:02 AM on January 25, 2016
That's an interesting point. I guess I don't really know if things like this have a substantial impact on viewers. Everyone my age (b. 1980) that I know was a huge fan of TLM from a feminist perspective.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 11:02 AM on January 25, 2016
But Vanellope von Schweetz is the main character in Wreck-It-Ralph the screenwriters just chose to tell the story from the sidekick's perspective kinda like Sancho Panza and Don Quixote
posted by vuron at 11:04 AM on January 25, 2016 [10 favorites]
posted by vuron at 11:04 AM on January 25, 2016 [10 favorites]
I think that's the point, we don't really know. Male has been the default for so long that we don't really know what kind of self image women would have not growing up with that default.
posted by sweetkid at 11:05 AM on January 25, 2016 [6 favorites]
posted by sweetkid at 11:05 AM on January 25, 2016 [6 favorites]
Instead of Jasmine's father trying to marry her off it's actually Jasmine's mother who is conforming to patriarchal values.
Actually, I take it back. Jasmine's father could very easily be changed to her mother with no substantial difference in the storyline of Aladdin. Jasmine's father, the sultan, has died, her mother is trying to marry off her daughter to ensure the stability of the kingdom. Jafar looks like a good bet in that light.
posted by chainsofreedom at 11:05 AM on January 25, 2016 [6 favorites]
Actually, I take it back. Jasmine's father could very easily be changed to her mother with no substantial difference in the storyline of Aladdin. Jasmine's father, the sultan, has died, her mother is trying to marry off her daughter to ensure the stability of the kingdom. Jafar looks like a good bet in that light.
posted by chainsofreedom at 11:05 AM on January 25, 2016 [6 favorites]
TLM specifically is so, so open to interpretation. It's really what you take away from it. "Dream bigger than your (patriarchal) society tells you is acceptable" is a perfectly legit reading, but so is "You can have it all if you just shut up and drastically alter your physical body to please a man!"
posted by Wretch729 at 11:05 AM on January 25, 2016 [18 favorites]
posted by Wretch729 at 11:05 AM on January 25, 2016 [18 favorites]
Aladdin somehow assists Jasmine and Jasmine falls in love with Aladdin thinking that this girl is actually a boy. Aladdin finally reveals her gender. Maybe even uses a wish from the genie to change gender if we want to be really progressive.
How very... Shakespearean.
posted by Mr.Encyclopedia at 11:06 AM on January 25, 2016 [11 favorites]
How very... Shakespearean.
posted by Mr.Encyclopedia at 11:06 AM on January 25, 2016 [11 favorites]
How does Pixar do, I wonder?
Toy Story: 3 main characters are dudes. 3 biggest supporting characters are dudes.
A Bug's Life: maybe, what with the queen and princess ant, but main character (and bad guy) are both dudes
Toy Story 2: again, all dudes, but now featuring Joan Cusack as the female sidekick who says goofy things
Monster's Inc: main characters are dudes, biggest female role is a pre-verbal toddler.
Finding Nemo: still mostly dudes, but also featuring Ellen as the female sidekick who says goofy things
The Incredibles: probably has a good balance
Cars: main characters are dudes, but also featuring Bonnie Hunt as the porsche with a tramp stamp
Ratatouille: almost all dudes. For a movie about a vegetarian dish it's a real sausage fest, amirite
Wall-E: the main female character is a robot who doesn't talk.
Up: old dude and young dude meet even older dude and make friends with a talking dog who is also a dude.
Toy Story 3: there's a girl dinosaur now, and finally Barbie gets some speaking roles.
Cars 2: I haven't seen it.
Brave: YES, finally we have two female characters who actually, like, talk to each other and are featured on the screen at the same time--actual percentage in the article.
Monsters University: not only is it still nearly all dudes but this time it takes place at a frat house.
I haven't seen Inside Out or The Good Dinosaur yet, but I'm just gonna go out on a limb here and say no, Pixar does not do well at this, but in their "defense" it's hard to have an even balance of speaking roles for your female characters when you don't have any damn female characters.
posted by phunniemee at 11:06 AM on January 25, 2016 [45 favorites]
Toy Story: 3 main characters are dudes. 3 biggest supporting characters are dudes.
A Bug's Life: maybe, what with the queen and princess ant, but main character (and bad guy) are both dudes
Toy Story 2: again, all dudes, but now featuring Joan Cusack as the female sidekick who says goofy things
Monster's Inc: main characters are dudes, biggest female role is a pre-verbal toddler.
Finding Nemo: still mostly dudes, but also featuring Ellen as the female sidekick who says goofy things
The Incredibles: probably has a good balance
Cars: main characters are dudes, but also featuring Bonnie Hunt as the porsche with a tramp stamp
Ratatouille: almost all dudes. For a movie about a vegetarian dish it's a real sausage fest, amirite
Wall-E: the main female character is a robot who doesn't talk.
Up: old dude and young dude meet even older dude and make friends with a talking dog who is also a dude.
Toy Story 3: there's a girl dinosaur now, and finally Barbie gets some speaking roles.
Cars 2: I haven't seen it.
Brave: YES, finally we have two female characters who actually, like, talk to each other and are featured on the screen at the same time--actual percentage in the article.
Monsters University: not only is it still nearly all dudes but this time it takes place at a frat house.
I haven't seen Inside Out or The Good Dinosaur yet, but I'm just gonna go out on a limb here and say no, Pixar does not do well at this, but in their "defense" it's hard to have an even balance of speaking roles for your female characters when you don't have any damn female characters.
posted by phunniemee at 11:06 AM on January 25, 2016 [45 favorites]
The main character in Inside Out is a little girl.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 11:07 AM on January 25, 2016
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 11:07 AM on January 25, 2016
I'm having a really hard time articulating what I want to say about this for some reason but yes, this speaks to me. I think the "why" can be found in the fairy godmothers from Sleeping Beauty - here you have these little plump old women running around doing stuff and arguing with each other. Now have more little old ladies in every movie, a mom here and there, women shopkeepers, dragons, monkeys, talking fish, parrots, domestic servants; have them bursting from every scene until the kind of character-counting we're doing in this thread becomes pointless. The focus on "female empowerment" in Disney has been so completely centered on the princess in each movie, to the exclusion of all else, that it makes it seem like being an empowered woman is about being exceptional, special, smart, a Strong Woman, like some kind of cult of individualism. Obviously you've got to have your heroes, but the very idea of a woman in an animated film shouldn't be exceptional - it should be normal. "The _____ in ______ is female!" shouldn't be a defense for anything.
posted by sunset in snow country at 11:09 AM on January 25, 2016 [29 favorites]
posted by sunset in snow country at 11:09 AM on January 25, 2016 [29 favorites]
I am a proud feminist and a proud lover of THE LITTLE MERMAID. It's causing me some cognitive dissonance. I blame Alan Menken and Howard Ashman. The songs, the score -- they are irresistible! Also, MERMAIDS! C'mon, they are the coolest. And let's not forget that Ariel might not talk much, but she rescues Eric. Totally saves his a** from Ursula. That should count for something!! Regarding other Disney princesses ... yah, there is work to be done here.
posted by pjsky at 11:09 AM on January 25, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by pjsky at 11:09 AM on January 25, 2016 [3 favorites]
Ages ago, I played a idiotic drinking game with a group of fellow idiots ostensibly trying to kill a keg where we decided to watch The Little Mermaid, and we'd all pick a character and take a drink every time your character had a line of dialogue.
All of the guys were trashed by the end. Ariel was trashed too, but she was nominally the star.
I've harbored a malevolent hatred of Sebastian to this day.
posted by Sphinx at 11:10 AM on January 25, 2016 [3 favorites]
All of the guys were trashed by the end. Ariel was trashed too, but she was nominally the star.
I've harbored a malevolent hatred of Sebastian to this day.
posted by Sphinx at 11:10 AM on January 25, 2016 [3 favorites]
Yeah Inside Out is a massive change and honestly a change for the better.
Female centric and honestly surprisingly deep. I definitely would have no qualms about suggesting Inside out as a very solid family movie.
Hopefully Pixar/Disney pays attention to the relative commercial and critical success of Inside Out as a model moving forward. I'm sure they'll continue to have completely crass attempts at maximizing profits from their IP with additional Cars movies but I can safely ignore those.
posted by vuron at 11:11 AM on January 25, 2016 [3 favorites]
Female centric and honestly surprisingly deep. I definitely would have no qualms about suggesting Inside out as a very solid family movie.
Hopefully Pixar/Disney pays attention to the relative commercial and critical success of Inside Out as a model moving forward. I'm sure they'll continue to have completely crass attempts at maximizing profits from their IP with additional Cars movies but I can safely ignore those.
posted by vuron at 11:11 AM on January 25, 2016 [3 favorites]
Wall-E: the main female character is a robot who doesn't talk.
To be fair, none of the main characters in that movie really talk.
posted by chainsofreedom at 11:12 AM on January 25, 2016 [12 favorites]
To be fair, none of the main characters in that movie really talk.
posted by chainsofreedom at 11:12 AM on January 25, 2016 [12 favorites]
ocschwar: "If this works, I owe King Willem a thank you card."
King Willem's just there to look pretty; Queen Max is the driving force of awesomeness in that household.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 11:15 AM on January 25, 2016 [2 favorites]
King Willem's just there to look pretty; Queen Max is the driving force of awesomeness in that household.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 11:15 AM on January 25, 2016 [2 favorites]
I am kind of tired of the pitchforking of Disney movies. No, they're not perfect. Just like hundreds of other movies made in the 90s and early 2000s. I think you have to look at these things with the overall message being sent by the film.
It's more then just the number of lines a character has, but what they say.
Take, for example, John Diggle from Arrow (tv, CW) - here's a black man that's more often then not quiet and reserved. He's one of the most badass yet normal characters on the show. When John talks, he has something important to say. He's the father-figure of the group. If you based Arrow solely on the number of lines the black man says vs the white male protagonist, you'd miss out on a upstanding example of a minority in story telling.
posted by INFJ at 11:18 AM on January 25, 2016 [7 favorites]
It's more then just the number of lines a character has, but what they say.
Take, for example, John Diggle from Arrow (tv, CW) - here's a black man that's more often then not quiet and reserved. He's one of the most badass yet normal characters on the show. When John talks, he has something important to say. He's the father-figure of the group. If you based Arrow solely on the number of lines the black man says vs the white male protagonist, you'd miss out on a upstanding example of a minority in story telling.
posted by INFJ at 11:18 AM on January 25, 2016 [7 favorites]
I mean, I wrote an entire presentation in high school on the connections between Beauty and the Beast and the AIDS epidemic. Let's not criticize Menken and Ashman too broadly.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 11:21 AM on January 25, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 11:21 AM on January 25, 2016 [4 favorites]
While INSIDE OUT is a great movie, with wonderful female representation -- it's not a "princess movie" and I do think that makes a difference. Princess movies are their own genre and send a different message to kids than most of the Pixar movies, which besides BRAVE, are devoid of "royalty".
posted by pjsky at 11:21 AM on January 25, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by pjsky at 11:21 AM on January 25, 2016 [2 favorites]
I agree with vuron that Aladdin wasn't really a princess movie, and I kinda wonder if Jasmine (who is really only in the movie to provide a convenient love interest) was only added to Disney's "princess" lineup as an attempt at diversification (of course, that doesn't give the movie a pass, by any means).
On a side note, the only thing I really liked about Aladdin was Robin Williams as himself. I don't know of any female comics who could give that sort of over-the-top performance - if anyone knows of one, I'm all ears. I'd watch any movie with someone like that in it.
posted by Greg_Ace at 11:21 AM on January 25, 2016 [3 favorites]
On a side note, the only thing I really liked about Aladdin was Robin Williams as himself. I don't know of any female comics who could give that sort of over-the-top performance - if anyone knows of one, I'm all ears. I'd watch any movie with someone like that in it.
posted by Greg_Ace at 11:21 AM on January 25, 2016 [3 favorites]
Vuron, if your goal with your comment is to suggest what the most transphobic Disney movie ever made might look like then I suppose yeah, it's good fodder for an ironic larf.
From where I sit, compared to the plot line you've put forward, Beauty and the Beast and the Little Mermaid are stellar media examples for a young closeted trans girl.
posted by Annika Cicada at 11:22 AM on January 25, 2016 [4 favorites]
From where I sit, compared to the plot line you've put forward, Beauty and the Beast and the Little Mermaid are stellar media examples for a young closeted trans girl.
posted by Annika Cicada at 11:22 AM on January 25, 2016 [4 favorites]
Not to derail too far but I thought Linda Holmes over at NPR's pop culture blog had some really insightful things to say about Inside Out, touching on gender but mostly on adolescence and how important it is that the movie doesn't have a traditional villain.
(This is the same Linda Holmes who wrote the widely shared plea to Pixar back in 2009 to make a female-centered movie that wasn't about a princess. She has commented on her podcast about how much Inside Out really felt like Pixar was finally answering her request.)
posted by Wretch729 at 11:23 AM on January 25, 2016 [2 favorites]
(This is the same Linda Holmes who wrote the widely shared plea to Pixar back in 2009 to make a female-centered movie that wasn't about a princess. She has commented on her podcast about how much Inside Out really felt like Pixar was finally answering her request.)
posted by Wretch729 at 11:23 AM on January 25, 2016 [2 favorites]
Another thought: I was recently paging through this book, which presents sketches from the artists on Pixar movies, specifically centered around gags and funny moments (a lot of which were eventually cut or never made it into the finished film). The whole point is that they just let it all out and brainstormed and then decided what was actually funny and effective later, and I don't fault the artists for making these jokes, per se, but... anyway, in the early films, the ones I grew up on, you see male name after male name in the art credits, and all these male characters, and when women appear they're the butt of sexist jokes. (I remember specifically one with Woody from Toy Story looking at a big-boobed Barbie who says "I'm an anatomical figure," and one where Elastigirl is tied up and punches a bad guy with one of her boobs.)
And then in the more recent movies, you start to see the names of female artists pop up, and the art and the humor becomes noticeably less dude-oriented. There was one piece of art - I'm not sure what movie it was from, possibly Inside Out - that showed two little girls dressed in costumes, putting on a performance for their dolls and stuffed animals, and it wasn't overly cutesy or precious, they looked like they were kind of getting into some mischief, I don't know, but it just captured the essence of girlhood play in a way that I honestly never expect to see in movies because they're so often made by people (men) who have never had that experience. I mean, I think you just get better stuff when you approach women and girls as people and not as some Feminist Problem to be solved.
Reading some of these comments, I think people are missing the point. You can always come up with story-related reasons why women (or PoC, or whoever) have fewer roles or lines in any given movie or TV show, but when it's a pattern across all media ever, something's wrong. I mean, why aren't we sitting here having this conversation trying to justify why men have so few speaking parts and women speak over 80% of the lines in media aimed at boys?
posted by sunset in snow country at 11:26 AM on January 25, 2016 [32 favorites]
And then in the more recent movies, you start to see the names of female artists pop up, and the art and the humor becomes noticeably less dude-oriented. There was one piece of art - I'm not sure what movie it was from, possibly Inside Out - that showed two little girls dressed in costumes, putting on a performance for their dolls and stuffed animals, and it wasn't overly cutesy or precious, they looked like they were kind of getting into some mischief, I don't know, but it just captured the essence of girlhood play in a way that I honestly never expect to see in movies because they're so often made by people (men) who have never had that experience. I mean, I think you just get better stuff when you approach women and girls as people and not as some Feminist Problem to be solved.
Reading some of these comments, I think people are missing the point. You can always come up with story-related reasons why women (or PoC, or whoever) have fewer roles or lines in any given movie or TV show, but when it's a pattern across all media ever, something's wrong. I mean, why aren't we sitting here having this conversation trying to justify why men have so few speaking parts and women speak over 80% of the lines in media aimed at boys?
posted by sunset in snow country at 11:26 AM on January 25, 2016 [32 favorites]
I wonder what the breakdown is for Lilo & Stitch. I know it passes the Bechdel test, but I also know there's more male characters (if you consider male sounding aliens as male) in the film.
posted by FJT at 11:27 AM on January 25, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by FJT at 11:27 AM on January 25, 2016 [2 favorites]
Thanks for this. More ammunition for me to share with my relatives and friends who allow their daughters to get caught up in what I call "The Princess Industrial Complex". Princess birthday parties, princess dress up day at school, princess spa days.
I ask if the parents of daughters in my group if they mean to teach their daughters, "Just dress up all pretty and catch that man." I love that look of confusion when they hear me say "The Princess Industrial Complex" for the first time. And then I enjoy their inevitable realization that I am not crazy and actually have a point about not steering their daughters into frills and frippery with no thought to the life long impact.
posted by narancia at 11:27 AM on January 25, 2016 [2 favorites]
I ask if the parents of daughters in my group if they mean to teach their daughters, "Just dress up all pretty and catch that man." I love that look of confusion when they hear me say "The Princess Industrial Complex" for the first time. And then I enjoy their inevitable realization that I am not crazy and actually have a point about not steering their daughters into frills and frippery with no thought to the life long impact.
posted by narancia at 11:27 AM on January 25, 2016 [2 favorites]
Ok this is a self-link, but if you'd like an actually unconventional film about a princess that addresses some of these issues head-on, might I suggest Princess Arete?
posted by selfnoise at 11:29 AM on January 25, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by selfnoise at 11:29 AM on January 25, 2016 [5 favorites]
I admit I am surprised at the size of the imbalance, though I have complained before about the Amusing Sidekick being male (to try to keep boys interested, I assume), and it isn't hugely shocking that there is an imbalance.
The main character in Inside Out is a little girl.
Half her feelings are male (but her parents get only gender-appropriate feelings), and her imaginary friend also is male. They don't normally mind having all-male movies, but god forbid Pixar does the reverse. I liked Inside Out fine, but if you look at the movies that are following, it's like they did their girl movie and they're back to usual.
posted by jeather at 11:39 AM on January 25, 2016 [4 favorites]
The main character in Inside Out is a little girl.
Half her feelings are male (but her parents get only gender-appropriate feelings), and her imaginary friend also is male. They don't normally mind having all-male movies, but god forbid Pixar does the reverse. I liked Inside Out fine, but if you look at the movies that are following, it's like they did their girl movie and they're back to usual.
posted by jeather at 11:39 AM on January 25, 2016 [4 favorites]
I mean, why aren't we sitting here having this conversation trying to justify why men have so few speaking parts and women speak over 80% of the lines in media aimed at boys?
This is made a little more complicated because the "strong silent type" is kind of seen as a traditional masculine trait. So for boys' media the non-speaking male is sometimes the proactive one, like a silent protagonist.
posted by FJT at 11:41 AM on January 25, 2016
This is made a little more complicated because the "strong silent type" is kind of seen as a traditional masculine trait. So for boys' media the non-speaking male is sometimes the proactive one, like a silent protagonist.
posted by FJT at 11:41 AM on January 25, 2016
On a side note, the only thing I really liked about Aladdin was Robin Williams as himself.
I felt that way as a kid, but now that I'm rewatching it with my toddler... oof. So many early 90's references that will forever fly over my kids' heads. I'm afraid that movie does not really hold up from all the silly ad libbing, and I find that even more aggravating than the lack of women characters.
And really, Iago can just be omitted entirely to the betterment of the movie.
posted by gatorae at 11:41 AM on January 25, 2016
I felt that way as a kid, but now that I'm rewatching it with my toddler... oof. So many early 90's references that will forever fly over my kids' heads. I'm afraid that movie does not really hold up from all the silly ad libbing, and I find that even more aggravating than the lack of women characters.
And really, Iago can just be omitted entirely to the betterment of the movie.
posted by gatorae at 11:41 AM on January 25, 2016
And really, Iago can just be omitted entirely to the betterment of the movie.
Now you're really just making stuff up for no good reason.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 11:43 AM on January 25, 2016 [3 favorites]
Now you're really just making stuff up for no good reason.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 11:43 AM on January 25, 2016 [3 favorites]
I find the best thing to do with Iago is to think of every insult and injury he suffers as actually occurring to Gilbert Godfried.
posted by Hactar at 12:01 PM on January 25, 2016 [9 favorites]
posted by Hactar at 12:01 PM on January 25, 2016 [9 favorites]
Every time I think about Frozen I realize it's not even a whole movie, it makes no damn sense. But it's a huge hit.
Maybe because girls are starved for powerful smiting queens as heroes. We'll take any half-baked, stupid-snowman-sidekick* plot if it will just give us the possibility of creating ice monsters and castles and missiles and singing a Fuck You, World, For Repressing Me song.
That's my theory, anyway. There's still such a dearth of good female heroes out there that little girls latch on to whatever they can get.
*fuck Olaf, seriously.
posted by emjaybee at 12:12 PM on January 25, 2016 [12 favorites]
Maybe because girls are starved for powerful smiting queens as heroes. We'll take any half-baked, stupid-snowman-sidekick* plot if it will just give us the possibility of creating ice monsters and castles and missiles and singing a Fuck You, World, For Repressing Me song.
That's my theory, anyway. There's still such a dearth of good female heroes out there that little girls latch on to whatever they can get.
*fuck Olaf, seriously.
posted by emjaybee at 12:12 PM on January 25, 2016 [12 favorites]
There's still such a dearth of good female heroes out there that little girls latch on to whatever they can get.
Elsa also has really good hair. It's super pretty but it's also pulled back into a practical braid so as not to interfere with her queenly smiting. It's an achievable look for a girl playing action princess.
posted by phunniemee at 12:18 PM on January 25, 2016 [12 favorites]
Elsa also has really good hair. It's super pretty but it's also pulled back into a practical braid so as not to interfere with her queenly smiting. It's an achievable look for a girl playing action princess.
posted by phunniemee at 12:18 PM on January 25, 2016 [12 favorites]
I am a proud feminist and a proud lover of THE LITTLE MERMAID. It's causing me some cognitive dissonance. I blame Alan Menken and Howard Ashman. The songs, the score -- they are irresistible! Also, MERMAIDS! C'mon, they are the coolest. And let's not forget that Ariel might not talk much, but she rescues Eric. Totally saves his a** from Ursula. That should count for something!! Regarding other Disney princesses ... yah, there is work to be done here.
pjsky
People sometimes deride The Little Mermaid as a woman abandoning her life for a man, but that's completely wrong. The first part of the movie is all about how Ariel has always dreamed of living on the surface world. She's devoted her life to this dream. Everyone around her, her friends, her family, her society, tell her she's a fool and she should just accept her assigned role.
Except she doesn't. She works damn hard and puts everything she has on the line to fulfill her dream, and in the end she makes the life she wants for herself, she becomes "part of that world", and the people around her learn to deal with it.
That seems like a pretty positive feminist message to me.
posted by Sangermaine at 12:29 PM on January 25, 2016 [18 favorites]
pjsky
People sometimes deride The Little Mermaid as a woman abandoning her life for a man, but that's completely wrong. The first part of the movie is all about how Ariel has always dreamed of living on the surface world. She's devoted her life to this dream. Everyone around her, her friends, her family, her society, tell her she's a fool and she should just accept her assigned role.
Except she doesn't. She works damn hard and puts everything she has on the line to fulfill her dream, and in the end she makes the life she wants for herself, she becomes "part of that world", and the people around her learn to deal with it.
That seems like a pretty positive feminist message to me.
posted by Sangermaine at 12:29 PM on January 25, 2016 [18 favorites]
Half her feelings are male (but her parents get only gender-appropriate feelings)
Yeah, that jumped out at me while watching the very first preview that included her parents' inner lives, and I wondered wtf that was all about. Was it because of that tired old "there aren't many funny women" thing?
posted by Greg_Ace at 12:47 PM on January 25, 2016
Yeah, that jumped out at me while watching the very first preview that included her parents' inner lives, and I wondered wtf that was all about. Was it because of that tired old "there aren't many funny women" thing?
posted by Greg_Ace at 12:47 PM on January 25, 2016
King Willem's just there to look pretty; Queen Max is the driving force of awesomeness in that household.
I should get a transcript of their next presser, and see who gets more lines.
posted by ocschwar at 12:58 PM on January 25, 2016
I should get a transcript of their next presser, and see who gets more lines.
posted by ocschwar at 12:58 PM on January 25, 2016
Real question: Does anyone here know of any videos that show girls or women in princess dresses riding bikes or skateboarding or building stuff?
I ask because my 3 year old has decided that she is a princess, and likes to wear (mostly improvised) princess dresses. But she also loves riding her push scooter scary fast, climbing trees and boulders, helping me build projects, and kicking ass in her balance bike.
Recently she figured out (thanks Disney) that girls in dresses don't do scary action stuff. Now she is very conflicted, she thinks she has to decide whether to be a princess or do cool stuff when picking her clothes in the morning, and the dresses have been winning.
My twmporary solution is not scalable. If this was not the scary internet, I would upload pictures of her riding her scooter in the mall, in her underwear, while I hold the pink skirt and sparkly T-shirt.
posted by Doroteo Arango II at 1:03 PM on January 25, 2016 [3 favorites]
I ask because my 3 year old has decided that she is a princess, and likes to wear (mostly improvised) princess dresses. But she also loves riding her push scooter scary fast, climbing trees and boulders, helping me build projects, and kicking ass in her balance bike.
Recently she figured out (thanks Disney) that girls in dresses don't do scary action stuff. Now she is very conflicted, she thinks she has to decide whether to be a princess or do cool stuff when picking her clothes in the morning, and the dresses have been winning.
My twmporary solution is not scalable. If this was not the scary internet, I would upload pictures of her riding her scooter in the mall, in her underwear, while I hold the pink skirt and sparkly T-shirt.
posted by Doroteo Arango II at 1:03 PM on January 25, 2016 [3 favorites]
See my comments above, Doroteo Arango II. There are enough pictures out there of Princess Catharina as a normal Dutch schoolgirl. My kid's still a bit hazy on real-life versus make-believe, but it did help.
posted by ocschwar at 1:11 PM on January 25, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by ocschwar at 1:11 PM on January 25, 2016 [2 favorites]
Real question: Does anyone here know of any videos that show girls or women in princess dresses riding bikes or skateboarding or building stuff?
I write stories like that all the time, but the girls don't see themselves as princesses, but queens, and they are girl scientists, inventors, and builders who aren't afraid of dressing up as queen Tyrannosauruses or chasing monsters wearing tiaras.
But the demand for those stories are not like the ones where it is a princess who doesn't have anything profound, witty, or brilliant to say.
posted by Alexandra Kitty at 1:12 PM on January 25, 2016 [3 favorites]
I write stories like that all the time, but the girls don't see themselves as princesses, but queens, and they are girl scientists, inventors, and builders who aren't afraid of dressing up as queen Tyrannosauruses or chasing monsters wearing tiaras.
But the demand for those stories are not like the ones where it is a princess who doesn't have anything profound, witty, or brilliant to say.
posted by Alexandra Kitty at 1:12 PM on January 25, 2016 [3 favorites]
Doroteo Arango II: Check out Rayssa Leal, a skateboard champ in Brazil! Plenty of pics of this young girl doing amazing skate tricks while wearing a floofy dress and pixie wings.
posted by cadge at 1:18 PM on January 25, 2016 [9 favorites]
posted by cadge at 1:18 PM on January 25, 2016 [9 favorites]
Real question: Does anyone here know of any videos that show girls or women in princess dresses riding bikes or skateboarding or building stuff?
Merida (from Brave) rides a horse & shoots arrows in a dress--does that help? (there is one scene, also, where she's put into too restrictive a dress, which she tears so she can shoot better)
posted by n. moon at 1:18 PM on January 25, 2016
Merida (from Brave) rides a horse & shoots arrows in a dress--does that help? (there is one scene, also, where she's put into too restrictive a dress, which she tears so she can shoot better)
posted by n. moon at 1:18 PM on January 25, 2016
MeFi to the rescue of the lazy googlers!
cadge: Thank you so much! This picture is exactly what I was looking for.
ocschwar, I showed some pictures to my kid, and she immediately identified with Princess Ariane. Now we have a new problem, she is demanding two sisters.
Just to be clear, she got obsessed with princesses before watching the movies, just from seeing the toys and watching her older cousins. She was perfectly happy doing 'scary fun' things in her princess clothes. After watching some of the the movies and cartoons, she started thinking it is an either/or thing. Either do scary fun stuff OR dress like a princess.
In my ideal world, everyone would feel free to participate in whatever they want, dressed whichever way they like.
posted by Doroteo Arango II at 1:34 PM on January 25, 2016 [7 favorites]
cadge: Thank you so much! This picture is exactly what I was looking for.
ocschwar, I showed some pictures to my kid, and she immediately identified with Princess Ariane. Now we have a new problem, she is demanding two sisters.
Just to be clear, she got obsessed with princesses before watching the movies, just from seeing the toys and watching her older cousins. She was perfectly happy doing 'scary fun' things in her princess clothes. After watching some of the the movies and cartoons, she started thinking it is an either/or thing. Either do scary fun stuff OR dress like a princess.
In my ideal world, everyone would feel free to participate in whatever they want, dressed whichever way they like.
posted by Doroteo Arango II at 1:34 PM on January 25, 2016 [7 favorites]
To me, it's a sign that we need to think about diversity in the supporting cast as well as the main cast, because all of those minor lines do add up.
posted by CBrachyrhynchos at 1:34 PM on January 25, 2016 [7 favorites]
posted by CBrachyrhynchos at 1:34 PM on January 25, 2016 [7 favorites]
Greg_Ace: Yeah, that jumped out at me while watching the very first preview that included her parents' inner lives, and I wondered wtf that was all about. Was it because of that tired old "there aren't many funny women" thing?
Pete Docter was interviewed about this a while back:
posted by tittergrrl at 1:53 PM on January 25, 2016 [5 favorites]
Pete Docter was interviewed about this a while back:
Lassetter’s thoughts on the matter were actually shared with m[e] by Pete Docter when I had the chance to sit down with him for a one-on-one interview a couple weeks before Inside Out was released. Discussing the genders of the emotions in both the mind of Riley and her parents, I explained how I interpreted it as people maturing into more gender-specific individuals, and the filmmaker explained that Lassetter had similar thoughts on the matter. Said Docter,Not every person in the film has fully one-gendered emotions. The pizza place cashier may have emotions of different genders as well, depending on how you read the voices, and no one knows the genders of the dog or cat's emotions.I remember, we talked to John and he said, ‘Well, I thought you did it because, as adults, we become more kind of set in our ways. As a kid, you can... anywhere is possible.’Explaining his own approach to the dinner scene in Inside Out, however, Pete Docter said that they were ultimately two things that were absolutely vital to the scene: clarity and comedy. Had Riley’s parents both had multi-gendered emotions like their daughter, the scene would have been going back between 18 different characters, and it was a bit unruly unless everyone was identifiable. Not only did making the emotions gender specific in the parents make the sequence easier to follow, but it also opened up an opportunity to create a few extra laughs. Explained the director,For the comedy of it, we’re cutting between 18 characters and 4 locations in that dinner scene, so we just went broad with it - kind of how SNL would do it. They all have like dopey obvious mustaches or big red glasses so that you’re instantly clear on, ‘Oh, it’s mom; it’s dad.’
posted by tittergrrl at 1:53 PM on January 25, 2016 [5 favorites]
People sometimes deride The Little Mermaid as a woman abandoning her life for a man, but that's completely wrong. The first part of the movie is all about how Ariel has always dreamed of living on the surface world. She's devoted her life to this dream. Everyone around her, her friends, her family, her society, tell her she's a fool and she should just accept her assigned role.
Except she doesn't. She works damn hard and puts everything she has on the line to fulfill her dream, and in the end she makes the life she wants for herself, she becomes "part of that world", and the people around her learn to deal with it.
That seems like a pretty positive feminist message to me.
Well, but her story still sells the idea that a girl's happiest day is her wedding day. Even for 1989, that's a little behind the trend for even adult films at the time - for ex. Working Girl had Melanie Griffith and Harrison Ford as a power couple at the end, and that was something of a fish out of water fairytale, too.
I get why people see it as feminist for the time and are attached to Ariel as a heroine, but the thing is, culture and times go on. Like, it's been over 25 years. And I think the fact that some adults are gripping so strongly to the idea that those late 80s early 90s princesses were totally feminist and there's no issue, is exactly why we need to look at what messages kids are getting from those movies, so we know exactly what kind of worldview we're giving to little kids today.
posted by sweetkid at 2:05 PM on January 25, 2016 [6 favorites]
Except she doesn't. She works damn hard and puts everything she has on the line to fulfill her dream, and in the end she makes the life she wants for herself, she becomes "part of that world", and the people around her learn to deal with it.
That seems like a pretty positive feminist message to me.
Well, but her story still sells the idea that a girl's happiest day is her wedding day. Even for 1989, that's a little behind the trend for even adult films at the time - for ex. Working Girl had Melanie Griffith and Harrison Ford as a power couple at the end, and that was something of a fish out of water fairytale, too.
I get why people see it as feminist for the time and are attached to Ariel as a heroine, but the thing is, culture and times go on. Like, it's been over 25 years. And I think the fact that some adults are gripping so strongly to the idea that those late 80s early 90s princesses were totally feminist and there's no issue, is exactly why we need to look at what messages kids are getting from those movies, so we know exactly what kind of worldview we're giving to little kids today.
posted by sweetkid at 2:05 PM on January 25, 2016 [6 favorites]
I don't think excessive examination of the anthropomorphization of core emotions in Inside Out really stand up to much scrutiny. I would argue that brief scene makes the case that those emotions are human rather than gendered. And also the "ringleader" emotion is different from person to person without being a bad thing.
posted by CBrachyrhynchos at 2:28 PM on January 25, 2016
posted by CBrachyrhynchos at 2:28 PM on January 25, 2016
Doroteo Arango II: "Real question: Does anyone here know of any videos that show girls or women in princess dresses riding bikes or skateboarding or building stuff?"
The Dutch princesses's mother, Queen Maxima, is very glamorous and fashionable, and is always going off-script at public appearances to hop on bicycles in skirts or paint walls or wrestle with dogs. Before the kids, Princess Kate was often doing sports and other active things too (although usually more appropriately dressed). If you follow a blog of the European royals' photo calls/press conferences/etc. (I like "The Royal Order of Sartorial Splendor," which is fashion-focused, but picks up some of these), you'll see lots of the Scandinavian royals, in particular, doing cool things, sometimes in regular clothes, sometimes in pretty dresses. They all have youngish and cool crown princesses right now, and lots of sporty little princesses behind them. You'll also see neat things like Crown Princess Victoria at the Nobels wearing super-fancy clothes and recognizing men and women in science. Or Princess Estelle just Princess Estelling.
The Spanish royal family also has two little girls right now (the elder of whom is the Infanta), but they seem a little more press-restricted and proper. The Scandinavian royal families have a lot of kids and they're often having fun in photo calls and show lots of vacation pictures with winter sports and everyday regular people activities and historical costume-wearing, as well as more prim and proper and princess-dress state events.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 3:11 PM on January 25, 2016 [6 favorites]
The Dutch princesses's mother, Queen Maxima, is very glamorous and fashionable, and is always going off-script at public appearances to hop on bicycles in skirts or paint walls or wrestle with dogs. Before the kids, Princess Kate was often doing sports and other active things too (although usually more appropriately dressed). If you follow a blog of the European royals' photo calls/press conferences/etc. (I like "The Royal Order of Sartorial Splendor," which is fashion-focused, but picks up some of these), you'll see lots of the Scandinavian royals, in particular, doing cool things, sometimes in regular clothes, sometimes in pretty dresses. They all have youngish and cool crown princesses right now, and lots of sporty little princesses behind them. You'll also see neat things like Crown Princess Victoria at the Nobels wearing super-fancy clothes and recognizing men and women in science. Or Princess Estelle just Princess Estelling.
The Spanish royal family also has two little girls right now (the elder of whom is the Infanta), but they seem a little more press-restricted and proper. The Scandinavian royal families have a lot of kids and they're often having fun in photo calls and show lots of vacation pictures with winter sports and everyday regular people activities and historical costume-wearing, as well as more prim and proper and princess-dress state events.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 3:11 PM on January 25, 2016 [6 favorites]
I watched "The Little Mermaid" for the first time a few weeks ago.
I have heard about sexism in Disney movies, and I'm mildly allergic to princess-y stuff for my daughter, but I remembered my high school choir's rendition of "Under the Sea" and thought, my daughter likes the ocean... how bad can the rest of it be?
Oof.
SHE DOESN'T SPEAK! THE WHOLE MESSAGE OF THE MOVIE IS THAT IF YOU MAKE FLUTTERY EYES AND KEEP YOUR MOUTH SHUT, A MAN WILL SAVE YOU FROM EVERYTHING THAT'S BAD! JUST SHUT UP, AND YOUR LIFE WILL BECOME WONDERFUL!
It really is that bad. I was shocked.
We haven't watched it again since.
posted by clawsoon at 3:16 PM on January 25, 2016 [3 favorites]
I have heard about sexism in Disney movies, and I'm mildly allergic to princess-y stuff for my daughter, but I remembered my high school choir's rendition of "Under the Sea" and thought, my daughter likes the ocean... how bad can the rest of it be?
Oof.
SHE DOESN'T SPEAK! THE WHOLE MESSAGE OF THE MOVIE IS THAT IF YOU MAKE FLUTTERY EYES AND KEEP YOUR MOUTH SHUT, A MAN WILL SAVE YOU FROM EVERYTHING THAT'S BAD! JUST SHUT UP, AND YOUR LIFE WILL BECOME WONDERFUL!
It really is that bad. I was shocked.
We haven't watched it again since.
posted by clawsoon at 3:16 PM on January 25, 2016 [3 favorites]
Thanks for this. More ammunition for me to share with my relatives and friends who allow their daughters to get caught up in what I call "The Princess Industrial Complex". Princess birthday parties, princess dress up day at school, princess spa days.
Yes, because the one thing that parents don't hear enough of is that they're raising their daughters wrong.
If you want to help, just get the girl cool non-princess toys and books.
posted by Gygesringtone at 3:18 PM on January 25, 2016 [5 favorites]
Yes, because the one thing that parents don't hear enough of is that they're raising their daughters wrong.
If you want to help, just get the girl cool non-princess toys and books.
posted by Gygesringtone at 3:18 PM on January 25, 2016 [5 favorites]
Are people really trying to argue that Disney and Pixar movies aren't sexist? I BLEED Disney and I don't think there's any way around that fact. You can still love them while acknowledging that they're effed up--at least, that's what I do.
Not sure if my daughter is going to be watching most of them at a formative age, though.
posted by chaiminda at 3:18 PM on January 25, 2016 [3 favorites]
Not sure if my daughter is going to be watching most of them at a formative age, though.
posted by chaiminda at 3:18 PM on January 25, 2016 [3 favorites]
Thanks for this. More ammunition for me to share with my relatives and friends who allow their daughters to get caught up in what I call "The Princess Industrial Complex". Princess birthday parties, princess dress up day at school, princess spa days.
I ask if the parents of daughters in my group if they mean to teach their daughters, "Just dress up all pretty and catch that man." I love that look of confusion when they hear me say "The Princess Industrial Complex" for the first time. And then I enjoy their inevitable realization that I am not crazy and actually have a point about not steering their daughters into frills and frippery with no thought to the life long impact.
I would be shocked if the parents you are wowing have never actually encountered these ideas before. At any rate, I think it's a bit naive to think you can just "not allow" your kid to get caught up in something. They have a lot more influences in this world than just you.
posted by JenMarie at 3:21 PM on January 25, 2016 [5 favorites]
I ask if the parents of daughters in my group if they mean to teach their daughters, "Just dress up all pretty and catch that man." I love that look of confusion when they hear me say "The Princess Industrial Complex" for the first time. And then I enjoy their inevitable realization that I am not crazy and actually have a point about not steering their daughters into frills and frippery with no thought to the life long impact.
I would be shocked if the parents you are wowing have never actually encountered these ideas before. At any rate, I think it's a bit naive to think you can just "not allow" your kid to get caught up in something. They have a lot more influences in this world than just you.
posted by JenMarie at 3:21 PM on January 25, 2016 [5 favorites]
Merida (from Brave) rides a horse & shoots arrows in a dress--does that help? (there is one scene, also, where she's put into too restrictive a dress, which she tears so she can shoot better)
I know Princess dresses for little girls ain't cheap, but I wonder about modifying one with modest slits (assuming worn with leggings or something) and velcro so she could go from Pretty Princess to Action Princess! It could double as getting the dress out of the way of the bike chain or scooter wheels if you found a clever way to have reverse velcro on either side.
posted by the uncomplicated soups of my childhood at 3:22 PM on January 25, 2016 [3 favorites]
I know Princess dresses for little girls ain't cheap, but I wonder about modifying one with modest slits (assuming worn with leggings or something) and velcro so she could go from Pretty Princess to Action Princess! It could double as getting the dress out of the way of the bike chain or scooter wheels if you found a clever way to have reverse velcro on either side.
posted by the uncomplicated soups of my childhood at 3:22 PM on January 25, 2016 [3 favorites]
For the comedy of it, we’re cutting between 18 characters and 4 locations in that dinner scene, so we just went broad with it - kind of how SNL would do it. They all have like dopey obvious mustaches or big red glasses so that you’re instantly clear on, ‘Oh, it’s mom; it’s dad.’
Yeah, that was cringingly stereotyped, maybe the worst scene in the movie.
And though I don't think Disney or Pixar are any way non-sexist (and they're less sexist than they are racist, homophobic), I also really love a number of their movies. I watched a bunch of Disney movies as a kid and as a teen (and as an adult), and Pixar movies at the end of my teens, and I managed to enjoy them and also not grow up as a stereotyped princess, even if I do like some frills and frippery and fairy tales; you aren't dooming children by letting them watch these movies.
posted by jeather at 3:28 PM on January 25, 2016
Yeah, that was cringingly stereotyped, maybe the worst scene in the movie.
And though I don't think Disney or Pixar are any way non-sexist (and they're less sexist than they are racist, homophobic), I also really love a number of their movies. I watched a bunch of Disney movies as a kid and as a teen (and as an adult), and Pixar movies at the end of my teens, and I managed to enjoy them and also not grow up as a stereotyped princess, even if I do like some frills and frippery and fairy tales; you aren't dooming children by letting them watch these movies.
posted by jeather at 3:28 PM on January 25, 2016
Why are we not getting a WICKED movie, anyway? Come on, Elpheba versus Elsa?
totally Elsa
posted by alasdair at 3:37 PM on January 25, 2016 [1 favorite]
totally Elsa
posted by alasdair at 3:37 PM on January 25, 2016 [1 favorite]
Wouldn't that just be Idina Menzel fighting herself?
posted by Wretch729 at 4:22 PM on January 25, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by Wretch729 at 4:22 PM on January 25, 2016 [5 favorites]
I loved Brave, which definitely does show a princess in a dress riding fast on a horse, climbing cliffs, etc. (Though not so realistically: she should have yanked her skirts above her knees like a peasant woman so they didn't catch while climbing).
Also: the plot revolves around two women.
posted by jb at 6:45 PM on January 25, 2016
Also: the plot revolves around two women.
posted by jb at 6:45 PM on January 25, 2016
Not every person in the film has fully one-gendered emotions.
I just watched the clip you linked, and young women get (have to have) male emotional avatars, and everyone else is gender specific. We don't see a single male character with female avatars.
posted by thecjm at 8:20 PM on January 25, 2016 [5 favorites]
I just watched the clip you linked, and young women get (have to have) male emotional avatars, and everyone else is gender specific. We don't see a single male character with female avatars.
posted by thecjm at 8:20 PM on January 25, 2016 [5 favorites]
I don't think excessive examination of the anthropomorphization of core emotions in Inside Out really stand up to much scrutiny. I would argue that brief scene makes the case that those emotions are human rather than gendered. And also the "ringleader" emotion is different from person to person without being a bad thing.
It also tells you something about the person. The mother is driven by sadness, the father by anger. I'm not sure I could work out which of the teenagers emotions was which.
I think it's a big problem that these trends exist in disney, and indeed, in media in general (disney is reflecting the culture around it after all), but I don't think it's necessarily productive to focus on choices in an individual film and thus say that film is terrible. Lots of films fail a feminist reading but are still really good films after all, just like how the Incredibles has this incredibly disturbing libertarian message to it but it still really great when describing the relationships in one family (and putting the best superhero action scenes ever created on camera).
I think it's a shame to find some of the readings of a film repellent and then determine that the film is repellent. It's absolutely true that you can look at the Little Mermaid as a parable about how women should just be quiet and hope that men will save them, although arguably the film contradicts that (by not taking action and hoping Eric does, he almost ends up marrying Ursula. It's only when she takes action that she can get her voice back), but I don't think that reading denies it's value.
What I'm saying is that it's rare to find non problematic media, so I guess I take what I can where I can. Should Firefly have had Asian characters in it? Absolutely? Are Whedon's thoughts on sex works at best utterly confused and contradictory? Yup. But there's still lot's to love there!
What I like to say about media is "wouldn't it be great if?" Not that this movie is bad, but wouldn't it be great if the women could have done a bit more, said a bit more, been a bit more active? And we should absolutely push filmmakers to do better and, say, cast the leads in the latest star wars film to be a black man and a white woman.
It's also a little odd, looking at the chart, that they've picked out that particular era as, as the graph shows, things seem to have gotten better recently. I would have thought doing it to pixar would have worked well, as pixar have been obssessed with the buddy movie (where the buddys are men) for way too long.
posted by Cannon Fodder at 2:36 AM on January 26, 2016 [3 favorites]
It also tells you something about the person. The mother is driven by sadness, the father by anger. I'm not sure I could work out which of the teenagers emotions was which.
I think it's a big problem that these trends exist in disney, and indeed, in media in general (disney is reflecting the culture around it after all), but I don't think it's necessarily productive to focus on choices in an individual film and thus say that film is terrible. Lots of films fail a feminist reading but are still really good films after all, just like how the Incredibles has this incredibly disturbing libertarian message to it but it still really great when describing the relationships in one family (and putting the best superhero action scenes ever created on camera).
I think it's a shame to find some of the readings of a film repellent and then determine that the film is repellent. It's absolutely true that you can look at the Little Mermaid as a parable about how women should just be quiet and hope that men will save them, although arguably the film contradicts that (by not taking action and hoping Eric does, he almost ends up marrying Ursula. It's only when she takes action that she can get her voice back), but I don't think that reading denies it's value.
What I'm saying is that it's rare to find non problematic media, so I guess I take what I can where I can. Should Firefly have had Asian characters in it? Absolutely? Are Whedon's thoughts on sex works at best utterly confused and contradictory? Yup. But there's still lot's to love there!
What I like to say about media is "wouldn't it be great if?" Not that this movie is bad, but wouldn't it be great if the women could have done a bit more, said a bit more, been a bit more active? And we should absolutely push filmmakers to do better and, say, cast the leads in the latest star wars film to be a black man and a white woman.
It's also a little odd, looking at the chart, that they've picked out that particular era as, as the graph shows, things seem to have gotten better recently. I would have thought doing it to pixar would have worked well, as pixar have been obssessed with the buddy movie (where the buddys are men) for way too long.
posted by Cannon Fodder at 2:36 AM on January 26, 2016 [3 favorites]
The point of criticism isn't necessarily, "this thing is bad, and you're a bad person for watching it." (Although some things really are bad, just very little of what's been named here.) It should be, "gee, this is interesting, let's do a deeper reading of it." Even explicitly feminist artists sometimes let a clunker idea slip into their work.
I don't think the original article is against the Disney Renaissance of the 1990s (as it's often called), only in noting that the big-broadway style may have involved some biases, in spite of the fact that it likely launched the Disney Princess as a big marketing thing.
posted by CBrachyrhynchos at 5:57 AM on January 26, 2016
I don't think the original article is against the Disney Renaissance of the 1990s (as it's often called), only in noting that the big-broadway style may have involved some biases, in spite of the fact that it likely launched the Disney Princess as a big marketing thing.
posted by CBrachyrhynchos at 5:57 AM on January 26, 2016
The point of criticism isn't necessarily, "this thing is bad, and you're a bad person for watching it." (Although some things really are bad, just very little of what's been named here.) It should be, "gee, this is interesting, let's do a deeper reading of it." Even explicitly feminist artists sometimes let a clunker idea slip into their work.
no I agree with this, I just get the feeling from some in this thread that they feel bad for liking certain pieces of media which are imperfect, and I want to argue against that. Love the little monsters, but acknowledge their failures.
posted by Cannon Fodder at 6:31 AM on January 26, 2016 [1 favorite]
no I agree with this, I just get the feeling from some in this thread that they feel bad for liking certain pieces of media which are imperfect, and I want to argue against that. Love the little monsters, but acknowledge their failures.
posted by Cannon Fodder at 6:31 AM on January 26, 2016 [1 favorite]
Regarding Inside Out: why were Sadness and Joy female, and why did Anger have to be male? The gendered-ness of Riley's emotions was stereotypical. It would have been useful for boys to see a male Sadness, and for girls to see a female Anger.
posted by MrBobinski at 4:07 PM on January 26, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by MrBobinski at 4:07 PM on January 26, 2016 [2 favorites]
I take your point, but Joy and Sadness are kind of the most important characters in the movie, so making them be female (like Riley) seems important too.
posted by Wretch729 at 4:15 PM on January 26, 2016
posted by Wretch729 at 4:15 PM on January 26, 2016
But not Anger for some reason? That always confused me. If the emotions are manifestations of Riley herself, why aren't they all female?
posted by sciatrix at 4:28 PM on January 26, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by sciatrix at 4:28 PM on January 26, 2016 [1 favorite]
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