Making sense of the Oregon standoff
February 14, 2016 5:30 PM Subscribe
A Montana based, politically conservative journalist went to Oregon looking for kindred spirits. He didn't find them. He does, however, connect some dots between economic despair, the Arizona Strip and the Taylor Grazing Act, the Mormon Church, the Koch family, CS Lewis, the US Constitution, and the likely undiagnosed mental illness that led some of the occupiers to risk their lives in defense of principles they simply have no basic understanding of.
Like terrorists from elsewhere, people with bleak economic prospects turn elsewhere to find meaning and perhaps make some money along the way.
posted by GuyZero at 5:43 PM on February 14, 2016 [7 favorites]
posted by GuyZero at 5:43 PM on February 14, 2016 [7 favorites]
I’m a reader of the U.S. Constitution, one who truly believes that the Second Amendment guarantees the survival of the rest of the Bill of Rights.
No. That was always the Fourth.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 5:44 PM on February 14, 2016 [51 favorites]
His name is Hal Herring and he reads "a laundry-list of anarchists, from Tolstoy and Kropotkin to Bakunin and Proudhon"? Please, please, tell me his nickname is "Red".
posted by dannyboybell at 5:51 PM on February 14, 2016 [56 favorites]
posted by dannyboybell at 5:51 PM on February 14, 2016 [56 favorites]
It's a nice piece of writing; threaded throughout it as a central theme is Herring's disappointment at the lack of any clear and meaningful purpose behind the whole protracted ruckus, something that for all I've been following it the last month and a half I'll admit I experienced more as a generalized contempt for the strutting and tactics of the motley crew and their Bundy Ranch pedigree than as anything like being let down that there wasn't any there there to their notional movement. Herring's initial approach to the whole clusterfuck was certainly more generous than mine, and his frustration more nuanced and interesting as a result.
And as an obsessive watcher's side-note, I giggled a little when I read this summing up from Herring:
posted by cortex at 5:54 PM on February 14, 2016 [25 favorites]
And as an obsessive watcher's side-note, I giggled a little when I read this summing up from Herring:
As I write this, the Malheur occupation has come to an end, with Sean and Sandy Anderson, with whom I spent a pleasant hour or so talking politics and smoking cigarettes, surrendering as the last of the holdouts, along with the youthful techie, the seemingly demented Ohioan, David Fry.Yet again, Jeff Banta fades into the background, forgotten in his abiding taciturnity.
posted by cortex at 5:54 PM on February 14, 2016 [25 favorites]
The most important part of this article is
That the militants are asking for is almost exactly what more mainstream political leaders like Utah state Rep. Rob Bishop or the American Lands Council, now headed by Montana state Sen. Jennifer Fielder, say they want, too. The Malheur occupation, with the incessant press coverage in its early weeks, was the soapbox for disseminating payloads of misinformation about America’s public lands, about their management, about how and why we have them. Every soundbite was delivered to further the goal of privatization.
The Bundys and the militants who follow and support them are the agents of their own destruction.
When our public lands go on sale, which is exactly what the Republican are working towards, kiss all our National Parks goodbye. Every square inch. Great article. thanks for posting. Now I am going to go curl up in a corner and cry.
posted by pjsky at 6:01 PM on February 14, 2016 [50 favorites]
That the militants are asking for is almost exactly what more mainstream political leaders like Utah state Rep. Rob Bishop or the American Lands Council, now headed by Montana state Sen. Jennifer Fielder, say they want, too. The Malheur occupation, with the incessant press coverage in its early weeks, was the soapbox for disseminating payloads of misinformation about America’s public lands, about their management, about how and why we have them. Every soundbite was delivered to further the goal of privatization.
The Bundys and the militants who follow and support them are the agents of their own destruction.
When our public lands go on sale, which is exactly what the Republican are working towards, kiss all our National Parks goodbye. Every square inch. Great article. thanks for posting. Now I am going to go curl up in a corner and cry.
posted by pjsky at 6:01 PM on February 14, 2016 [50 favorites]
I'm starting to think Jeff might have been a figment of our collective imagination.
posted by Atom Eyes at 6:02 PM on February 14, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by Atom Eyes at 6:02 PM on February 14, 2016 [4 favorites]
I made the glib remark earlier that 2016 seems to be chock full of people who are sworn to defend a Constitution they've never read.
After first set of arrests - when Robert Finicum was killed - Josh Marshall at Talking Points Memo wrote:
These guys are the capitalist version of what Lenin called "useful idiots", propagandists for a cause they don't understand.
posted by mhoye at 6:08 PM on February 14, 2016 [64 favorites]
After first set of arrests - when Robert Finicum was killed - Josh Marshall at Talking Points Memo wrote:
Even with the rankest violent white supremacists or jihadis who blow themselves up or get themselves killed, I can get that there's a thing they're doing, a set of beliefs, albeit crazy and totally evil. Here, though, these guys have this bucket of nonsense hocum about Magna Carta and Sheriffs somehow being the true "sovereigns" over state governments, federal governments, the people themselves and all of this means the federal government can't manage and charge grazing fees for land that it in fact owns. These aren't archaic ideas that were once true but are now outdated. This stuff was never true or even made any sense.... and it's really not surprising to find out that so many of these self-styled revolutionaries or their hangers-on have no grasp of the context or history of what they're doing.
These guys are the capitalist version of what Lenin called "useful idiots", propagandists for a cause they don't understand.
posted by mhoye at 6:08 PM on February 14, 2016 [64 favorites]
This is something that has puzzled me about this movement. These (supposed) small ranchers cannot possibly believe that they could compete in an open auction for the sale of these lands, or that the new owners would charge them anything less than market rate for use of them. At the very least, that would mean a serious cut in their profits; I suspect it would mean the loss of their ranches in fairly short order. Is their sense of entitlement so deep and blinding that they assume that they are the ones who would get these lands, that they personally are entitled to the vast government handout that would be below-market sales to them?
posted by praemunire at 6:08 PM on February 14, 2016 [73 favorites]
posted by praemunire at 6:08 PM on February 14, 2016 [73 favorites]
praemunire - to answer your question, Yes.
posted by pjsky at 6:11 PM on February 14, 2016 [22 favorites]
posted by pjsky at 6:11 PM on February 14, 2016 [22 favorites]
This is what this is about.
"How dare a government run by a black man dare to charge me?"
That's it. Plain and simple.
posted by eriko at 6:12 PM on February 14, 2016 [49 favorites]
"How dare a government run by a black man dare to charge me?"
That's it. Plain and simple.
posted by eriko at 6:12 PM on February 14, 2016 [49 favorites]
These (supposed) small ranchers cannot possibly believe that they could compete in an open auction for the sale of these lands
They don't really want open sale. They want grazing rights to be akin to intellectual property rights, where you gain (or retain) control and revenue but don't have to pay property taxes.
The nominal title would still be the government's, just a more local one where they have a proportionately better chance of using regulatory capture.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 6:16 PM on February 14, 2016 [13 favorites]
They don't really want open sale. They want grazing rights to be akin to intellectual property rights, where you gain (or retain) control and revenue but don't have to pay property taxes.
The nominal title would still be the government's, just a more local one where they have a proportionately better chance of using regulatory capture.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 6:16 PM on February 14, 2016 [13 favorites]
The first photo on the article features a man with an embroidered beanie of the state of Jefferson, which should tell you everything you need to know about these wannabe hippies from Ashland, Oregon that suddenly discovered the 2nd Amendment after Jerry Garcia died in 1995.
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 6:18 PM on February 14, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 6:18 PM on February 14, 2016 [3 favorites]
COD, thanks for posting this. The High Country News has had really great coverage of Malheur. If you're interested in news about Western lands, water, the environment, and more, there is no better news source.
posted by heurtebise at 6:19 PM on February 14, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by heurtebise at 6:19 PM on February 14, 2016 [3 favorites]
Is their sense of entitlement so deep and blinding that they assume that they are the ones who would get these lands
Libertarians as a group regard property rights as sacrosanct, but it seems like the fringey end of it has mixed that notion with the mantra "Finders Keepers" to regard squatters' rights as sacrosanct. I think they honestly believe tht they would get the land by virtue of having cows on it and "staking their claim" when it gets privatized. They basically expect a return to the Homestead Act, despite the fact that (a) that's a wholly unfeasible way to distribute land in modern America, and (b) homestead land distribution was kinda socialist, when you get right down to it.
posted by jackbishop at 6:27 PM on February 14, 2016 [27 favorites]
Libertarians as a group regard property rights as sacrosanct, but it seems like the fringey end of it has mixed that notion with the mantra "Finders Keepers" to regard squatters' rights as sacrosanct. I think they honestly believe tht they would get the land by virtue of having cows on it and "staking their claim" when it gets privatized. They basically expect a return to the Homestead Act, despite the fact that (a) that's a wholly unfeasible way to distribute land in modern America, and (b) homestead land distribution was kinda socialist, when you get right down to it.
posted by jackbishop at 6:27 PM on February 14, 2016 [27 favorites]
I've been following this whole situation pretty closely since it started, but this is some of the best writing I have read about the entire matter. Thank you for posting!
I agree. HCN consistently has excellent reporting on western resource issues of all kinds.
The weapons and the tactical vests lent a seriousness to men disappearing into the irrelevance of late middle age.
This stood out to me in a lot of the photos of the occupation, as well as of the related camps (like the medical tent one group set up).
Once the precedent for divesting federal lands is well-set, the eastern public lands, most of them far more valuable than those in the West, will go on the international auction block.
I disagree with the author that federal land divestment is a likely outcome, but his point that the eastern public lands would be the most valuable is interesting and not something I had ever considered. It makes sense, though, and if privitization gains traction there is going to be tensions in how it is proposed in the east versus the west.
posted by Dip Flash at 6:30 PM on February 14, 2016 [1 favorite]
I agree. HCN consistently has excellent reporting on western resource issues of all kinds.
The weapons and the tactical vests lent a seriousness to men disappearing into the irrelevance of late middle age.
This stood out to me in a lot of the photos of the occupation, as well as of the related camps (like the medical tent one group set up).
Once the precedent for divesting federal lands is well-set, the eastern public lands, most of them far more valuable than those in the West, will go on the international auction block.
I disagree with the author that federal land divestment is a likely outcome, but his point that the eastern public lands would be the most valuable is interesting and not something I had ever considered. It makes sense, though, and if privitization gains traction there is going to be tensions in how it is proposed in the east versus the west.
posted by Dip Flash at 6:30 PM on February 14, 2016 [1 favorite]
Libertarians as a group regard property rights as sacrosanct, but it seems like the fringey end of it has mixed that notion with the mantra "Finders Keepers" to regard squatters' rights as sacrosanct. I think they honestly believe tht they would get the land by virtue of having cows on it and "staking their claim" when it gets privatized.
Henry II: "The Vexin's mine."
Philip II: "By what authority?"
Henry II: "It's got my troops all over it; that makes it mine."
posted by AlonzoMosleyFBI at 6:33 PM on February 14, 2016 [9 favorites]
Henry II: "The Vexin's mine."
Philip II: "By what authority?"
Henry II: "It's got my troops all over it; that makes it mine."
posted by AlonzoMosleyFBI at 6:33 PM on February 14, 2016 [9 favorites]
if privitization gains traction there is going to be tensions in how it is proposed in the east versus the west.
It may be, but a LOT of Eastern development is about up selling tracts that abut National/State forests with the implicit promise that they'll never revert.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 6:35 PM on February 14, 2016 [1 favorite]
It may be, but a LOT of Eastern development is about up selling tracts that abut National/State forests with the implicit promise that they'll never revert.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 6:35 PM on February 14, 2016 [1 favorite]
I've kind of wondered whether some number of these guys might be found not competent to stand trial, and this does nothing to quiet that question.
posted by dilettante at 6:39 PM on February 14, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by dilettante at 6:39 PM on February 14, 2016 [5 favorites]
It was a good piece. There are a couple of real eye openers. The all too familiar names of the rich people snarfing up the land.
posted by Trochanter at 6:49 PM on February 14, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by Trochanter at 6:49 PM on February 14, 2016 [2 favorites]
Travis Longcore, I Stand with Linda Sue Beck: The Attack on Science at Malheur National Wildlife Refuge
posted by the man of twists and turns at 7:07 PM on February 14, 2016 [11 favorites]
posted by the man of twists and turns at 7:07 PM on February 14, 2016 [11 favorites]
Making sense of the Oregon standoff? Simply believers running afoul of reality. Happens all the time...
posted by jim in austin at 7:12 PM on February 14, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by jim in austin at 7:12 PM on February 14, 2016 [2 favorites]
As far as selling off public land just cast your memory back to James Watt during the Reagan years. I did a weak google search and couldn't find it so my certainty is uncertain but my memory is that a public green in a town next to Boston got sold off for development during the heady early days of the Reagan administration.
Aside from that the only peculiar part of this excellent read was this: "For loving wilderness and empty lands and birdsong rather than teeming cities, I risk being called a xenophobe, a noxious nativist." which didn't make much sense to me. Is it a reference to the Sierra Club?
posted by Pembquist at 7:14 PM on February 14, 2016 [3 favorites]
Aside from that the only peculiar part of this excellent read was this: "For loving wilderness and empty lands and birdsong rather than teeming cities, I risk being called a xenophobe, a noxious nativist." which didn't make much sense to me. Is it a reference to the Sierra Club?
posted by Pembquist at 7:14 PM on February 14, 2016 [3 favorites]
Libertarians live with the delusion that they are better than everyone else. If only the rest of us didn't hold them back with rules, they would be Lords of their castles. So of course they will benefits from free markets. They will buy the land.
posted by humanfont at 7:18 PM on February 14, 2016 [8 favorites]
posted by humanfont at 7:18 PM on February 14, 2016 [8 favorites]
The libertarian argument is that the Sierra Club will take better care of "public" land than the government does. On the surface, it seems like a reasonable point. However, the nuance that libertarians never get is that the Sierra Club won't end up owning the National Parks. The Koch Brothers will.
posted by COD at 7:20 PM on February 14, 2016 [16 favorites]
posted by COD at 7:20 PM on February 14, 2016 [16 favorites]
I think they honestly believe tht they would get the land by virtue of having cows on it and "staking their claim" when it gets privatized.
David Lloyd George: “To prove a legal title to land, one must trace it back to the man who stole it.”
I get the sense that a good degree of environmentalism is ensuring you're the last one in, i.e. corrupt. CCC I'm looking at you!
they would be Lords of their castles
http://geolib.com/essays/sullivan.dan/royallib.html is a link I throw at the libertarian crowd.
posted by Heywood Mogroot III at 7:25 PM on February 14, 2016 [2 favorites]
David Lloyd George: “To prove a legal title to land, one must trace it back to the man who stole it.”
I get the sense that a good degree of environmentalism is ensuring you're the last one in, i.e. corrupt. CCC I'm looking at you!
they would be Lords of their castles
http://geolib.com/essays/sullivan.dan/royallib.html is a link I throw at the libertarian crowd.
posted by Heywood Mogroot III at 7:25 PM on February 14, 2016 [2 favorites]
Cortex: Yet again, Jeff Banta fades into the background, forgotten in his abiding taciturnity.
My favorite comment was from Seamus who projected into the future -- Jeff Banta served 20 years of a 5 year sentence when no one noticed that he was still in the prison.
posted by JackFlash at 7:50 PM on February 14, 2016 [12 favorites]
My favorite comment was from Seamus who projected into the future -- Jeff Banta served 20 years of a 5 year sentence when no one noticed that he was still in the prison.
posted by JackFlash at 7:50 PM on February 14, 2016 [12 favorites]
homestead land distribution was kinda socialist, when you get right down to it.
It really wasn't - it was capitalist to the core. Some of it was about pushing people onto land to stay ahead of the free-state/slave state balance, and some of it was about increasing land value for the railroad companies to come. It was never a charitable, humanitarian effort to create a better society; it served business interests through political structures, until it didn't, and then those programs were ended.
posted by Miko at 7:52 PM on February 14, 2016 [17 favorites]
It really wasn't - it was capitalist to the core. Some of it was about pushing people onto land to stay ahead of the free-state/slave state balance, and some of it was about increasing land value for the railroad companies to come. It was never a charitable, humanitarian effort to create a better society; it served business interests through political structures, until it didn't, and then those programs were ended.
posted by Miko at 7:52 PM on February 14, 2016 [17 favorites]
This is what this is about. "How dare a government run by a black man dare to charge me?" That's it. Plain and simple.
No it isn't. The Sagebrush Rebellion comes from way before Obama was President. It goes back to Ronald Reagan. Obama might have amped up the Second Amendment paranoia, but the root goes back to resentment of Federal control of public lands.
posted by JackFlash at 7:58 PM on February 14, 2016 [31 favorites]
No it isn't. The Sagebrush Rebellion comes from way before Obama was President. It goes back to Ronald Reagan. Obama might have amped up the Second Amendment paranoia, but the root goes back to resentment of Federal control of public lands.
posted by JackFlash at 7:58 PM on February 14, 2016 [31 favorites]
Is their sense of entitlement so deep and blinding that they assume that they are the ones who would get these lands
I think they honestly believe tht they would get the land by virtue of having cows on it and "staking their claim" when it gets privatized.
They absolutely believed this, that was the entire point of when they built "improvements" and "roads" at Malhuer. Their next step was to be grazing cattle. In the Bundy / SovCit mind, apparently all you have to do gain legal title is get a cow with your brand on it to take a shit on a tract of land and it's yours, like some sort of demented seisen ritual.
posted by T.D. Strange at 8:01 PM on February 14, 2016 [13 favorites]
I think they honestly believe tht they would get the land by virtue of having cows on it and "staking their claim" when it gets privatized.
They absolutely believed this, that was the entire point of when they built "improvements" and "roads" at Malhuer. Their next step was to be grazing cattle. In the Bundy / SovCit mind, apparently all you have to do gain legal title is get a cow with your brand on it to take a shit on a tract of land and it's yours, like some sort of demented seisen ritual.
posted by T.D. Strange at 8:01 PM on February 14, 2016 [13 favorites]
I am isolated by a culture that is as inscrutable to me as any in the mountains of Afghanistan. For loving wilderness and empty lands and birdsong rather than teeming cities, I risk being called a xenophobe, a noxious nativist.
what
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 8:04 PM on February 14, 2016 [9 favorites]
what
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 8:04 PM on February 14, 2016 [9 favorites]
I think that there were some people involved that view this as divinely granted land that they are in effect owed because they "belong" to the LDS church and it's members. Those central members were more than willing to use the poor and desperate castoffs that flocked to their banner as a way of amplifying their message.
That some of the castoffs were violent and crazy just underlined the fact that this was never a coherent movement.
posted by vuron at 8:07 PM on February 14, 2016 [1 favorite]
That some of the castoffs were violent and crazy just underlined the fact that this was never a coherent movement.
posted by vuron at 8:07 PM on February 14, 2016 [1 favorite]
Is this the follow up thread to the two occupation threads? This is Talk'n Sov'rn?
Because I read. so. many. SovCit. articles. So. Many.
I have such sights to show you.
posted by robocop is bleeding at 8:09 PM on February 14, 2016 [19 favorites]
Because I read. so. many. SovCit. articles. So. Many.
I have such sights to show you.
posted by robocop is bleeding at 8:09 PM on February 14, 2016 [19 favorites]
That some of the castoffs were violent and crazy just underlined the fact that this was never a coherent movement.
The leaders were also violent and irrational. Their religious beliefs do not exempt them from that assessment.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 8:09 PM on February 14, 2016 [2 favorites]
The leaders were also violent and irrational. Their religious beliefs do not exempt them from that assessment.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 8:09 PM on February 14, 2016 [2 favorites]
jackbishop: "homestead land distribution was kinda socialist, when you get right down to it."
None of these guys object (out loud anyways) to socialism that benefits themselves. It's socialism that benefits the poor or POC or both that they object to where "poor" is anyone with less material worth. Because anyone more well off has obviously pulled themselves up by their bootstraps.
You want to get these guys heads asploding? Tell them the Feds are going to divest themselves of this land by mortgaging section sized homesteads to inner city welfare recipients for a nominal fee as a way of allowing them to bootstrap themselves out of poverty. All they have to do is erect a structure, breed some animal five years running and spend at least 330 days out of every year sleeping on the property.
posted by Mitheral at 8:16 PM on February 14, 2016 [28 favorites]
None of these guys object (out loud anyways) to socialism that benefits themselves. It's socialism that benefits the poor or POC or both that they object to where "poor" is anyone with less material worth. Because anyone more well off has obviously pulled themselves up by their bootstraps.
You want to get these guys heads asploding? Tell them the Feds are going to divest themselves of this land by mortgaging section sized homesteads to inner city welfare recipients for a nominal fee as a way of allowing them to bootstrap themselves out of poverty. All they have to do is erect a structure, breed some animal five years running and spend at least 330 days out of every year sleeping on the property.
posted by Mitheral at 8:16 PM on February 14, 2016 [28 favorites]
I'm starting to think Jeff might have been a figment of our collective imagination.
Jeff is one of The Militants Men Don't See
posted by AGameOfMoans at 8:18 PM on February 14, 2016 [1 favorite]
Jeff is one of The Militants Men Don't See
posted by AGameOfMoans at 8:18 PM on February 14, 2016 [1 favorite]
My favorite so far has been this chapter of a SovCit article where after pages of How To Beat Them At Their Own Game, the author points out how right he is because of how quickly the courts shut him down. It wasn't because he was ranting Moon Law - no! - it was because he was so correct they had to silence him through fines (seriously, the dude gets 13+ k in fines) and threats in order to protect the whole scheme.
I mean, if it was a real conspiracy that secretly controls untold trillions of dollars... why is he still walking around?
posted by robocop is bleeding at 8:20 PM on February 14, 2016 [12 favorites]
I mean, if it was a real conspiracy that secretly controls untold trillions of dollars... why is he still walking around?
posted by robocop is bleeding at 8:20 PM on February 14, 2016 [12 favorites]
I read
No wonder he didn't fit in with those idiots.
posted by benzenedream at 8:31 PM on February 14, 2016 [3 favorites]
No wonder he didn't fit in with those idiots.
posted by benzenedream at 8:31 PM on February 14, 2016 [3 favorites]
I am isolated by a culture that is as inscrutable to me as any in the mountains of Afghanistan. For loving wilderness and empty lands and birdsong rather than teeming cities, I risk being called a xenophobe, a noxious nativist.
This is apparently confusing some people. He's saying that by virtue of living in the countryside he's immediately assumed to be the worst stereotype of an obnoxious hick racist. He is not happy about this, and he's right to be.
posted by Pope Guilty at 8:31 PM on February 14, 2016 [30 favorites]
This is apparently confusing some people. He's saying that by virtue of living in the countryside he's immediately assumed to be the worst stereotype of an obnoxious hick racist. He is not happy about this, and he's right to be.
posted by Pope Guilty at 8:31 PM on February 14, 2016 [30 favorites]
robocop is bleeding: "My favorite so far has been this chapter of a SovCit article where after pages of How To Beat Them At Their Own Game, the author points out how right he is because of how quickly the courts shut him down."
I don't have a high enough Saving Throw vs. Insanity to read through all of that, but is there any point where he reconciles "How To Beat Them At Their Own Game" with "Actually, My Advice Doesn't Work And I Have The Experience To Prove It?"
posted by Bugbread at 8:35 PM on February 14, 2016 [8 favorites]
I don't have a high enough Saving Throw vs. Insanity to read through all of that, but is there any point where he reconciles "How To Beat Them At Their Own Game" with "Actually, My Advice Doesn't Work And I Have The Experience To Prove It?"
posted by Bugbread at 8:35 PM on February 14, 2016 [8 favorites]
He's saying that by virtue of living in the countryside he's immediately assumed to be the worst stereotype of an obnoxious hick racist. He is not happy about this, and he's right to be.
Thanks for that, Pope Guilty. That makes sense.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 8:41 PM on February 14, 2016 [1 favorite]
Thanks for that, Pope Guilty. That makes sense.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 8:41 PM on February 14, 2016 [1 favorite]
It was never a charitable, humanitarian effort to create a better society; it served business interests through political structures, until it didn't, and then those programs were ended.
I think it was pretty Jeffersonian ("yeoman farmer"), actually.
Problem was we ran out of good land to give out, plus it was gamed pretty bad / administered rather poorly.
posted by Heywood Mogroot III at 8:47 PM on February 14, 2016
I think it was pretty Jeffersonian ("yeoman farmer"), actually.
Problem was we ran out of good land to give out, plus it was gamed pretty bad / administered rather poorly.
posted by Heywood Mogroot III at 8:47 PM on February 14, 2016
One thing to remember about all lands, everywhere; the military geo-surveyed the whole earth, in some huge unlawful search, to my way of thinking. Later we will see what they seize. I have read about the planned uranium and gold mines over there. After the military used their satelites with ground penetrating radar, they announced Afghanistan has the world's largest lodes of Lithium. Then Karzai immediately said the Japanese would develop it. The Apache's sacred mountain sits on a copper deposit that was given to a foreign mining company, via a legislative sleight of hand, courtesy of Sen. John McCain.
I don't know if the Hammond ranch is right over the Uranium. I have always wondered how that radar survey was legal. Then I wonder who benefits from the data? It sure sets up our public and private lands for random exploitation. It is like some going out of business sale. When you read AI is going to put half of the world out of work, pretty much immediately in the relative scheme of things, what is going to happen? I can see how the middle aged guys who didn't get a college education, and who missed the memo about the end of their lifestyle, ranching as a tax deduction are in shock. A lot of small farmers are in the same kind of shock.
This was a really good article, as I want to remember those occupiers as people, (so the pictures were good,) but not forget they hoped to foment an unpleasant civil war, that would end with their ownership of what was once public land, the short version, an unsuccessful armed robbery.
posted by Oyéah at 8:50 PM on February 14, 2016 [4 favorites]
I don't know if the Hammond ranch is right over the Uranium. I have always wondered how that radar survey was legal. Then I wonder who benefits from the data? It sure sets up our public and private lands for random exploitation. It is like some going out of business sale. When you read AI is going to put half of the world out of work, pretty much immediately in the relative scheme of things, what is going to happen? I can see how the middle aged guys who didn't get a college education, and who missed the memo about the end of their lifestyle, ranching as a tax deduction are in shock. A lot of small farmers are in the same kind of shock.
This was a really good article, as I want to remember those occupiers as people, (so the pictures were good,) but not forget they hoped to foment an unpleasant civil war, that would end with their ownership of what was once public land, the short version, an unsuccessful armed robbery.
posted by Oyéah at 8:50 PM on February 14, 2016 [4 favorites]
It might be worth noting that the author of this piece isn't really "politically conservative". Reading this and his other articles, I believe he might be more like a left-wing market anarchist, based on his love of Proudhon, Kropotkin and preferring the commons over enclosure - making him fairly radical. You can see more of this kind of thought at the Center for a Stateless Society. I happen to think they're fundamentally wrong, but very occasionally are right like the proverbial stopped clock.
posted by elephantday at 8:58 PM on February 14, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by elephantday at 8:58 PM on February 14, 2016 [5 favorites]
What's their Loompanics Overlap Factor?
posted by rhizome at 9:13 PM on February 14, 2016 [15 favorites]
posted by rhizome at 9:13 PM on February 14, 2016 [15 favorites]
I've considered a post on the Sovereign Citizen/"Freemen on the land" stuff before. There is something ridiculously cool about all that stuff, in the same way that Larkin charts are, a weirdly insular and self-referential body of fictional knowledge seeking, to one degree or another, to pass itself off as real. It's like the world building impulse of Tolkien's Middle Earth or the Cthulhu Mythos taken to extremes.
posted by JHarris at 9:24 PM on February 14, 2016 [12 favorites]
posted by JHarris at 9:24 PM on February 14, 2016 [12 favorites]
Oh, and I'd also like to add my appreciation for the article. One gets a good sense of the people involved, from the perspective of someone almost, but not quite, of their circle. Maybe like Hunter S. Thompson writing about the Hell's Angels?
posted by JHarris at 9:27 PM on February 14, 2016 [7 favorites]
posted by JHarris at 9:27 PM on February 14, 2016 [7 favorites]
A well-written article - but I tried really, really hard to be sympathetic to the people portrayed in the article, who after all are both victims and losers, and I failed miserably.
It's not that they're stupid - which is no one's fault - but it's their willful ignorance of their own history, of the law, of pretty well everything; it's their belief that their guns make them big men; it's the fact that they are in reality subsidized by the state, but they want more things from the state, and they want to contribute less to it. (The fact that they make their living by killing animals is just icing on the cake...)
posted by lupus_yonderboy at 9:41 PM on February 14, 2016 [20 favorites]
It's not that they're stupid - which is no one's fault - but it's their willful ignorance of their own history, of the law, of pretty well everything; it's their belief that their guns make them big men; it's the fact that they are in reality subsidized by the state, but they want more things from the state, and they want to contribute less to it. (The fact that they make their living by killing animals is just icing on the cake...)
posted by lupus_yonderboy at 9:41 PM on February 14, 2016 [20 favorites]
He is not happy about this, and he's right to be.
Well, when you say things like "calling up our sons and daughters to attack chaotic peoples that clearly have nothing to do with me or anybody I know," you're inviting the label of xenophobe. At the least. Other words do come to mind.
his love of...Kropotkin
...it's been a long time since I read him, but I'm pretty sure he wasn't in favor of anything recognizable as a free market. Bakunin neither.
I tried really, really hard to be sympathetic to the people portrayed in the article, who after all are both victims and losers, and I failed miserably
I struggle with this often. These men are just pawns, and late capitalism really couldn't care less if they and their families laid down and died. It's rough when the system you've reposed a quasi-religious faith in considers you little more than ambulatory garbage. But the curdled sense of entitlement--not to basics like food and housing and health care, but to superiority over everyone who's not a straight white Christian male--makes it extremely hard for me to sympathize. How do you sympathize with someone for being poor when they'd be content with being poor if only they didn't suspect that some black people were getting ahead? At some point, you are responsible for the quality of your own beliefs.
posted by praemunire at 10:04 PM on February 14, 2016 [18 favorites]
Well, when you say things like "calling up our sons and daughters to attack chaotic peoples that clearly have nothing to do with me or anybody I know," you're inviting the label of xenophobe. At the least. Other words do come to mind.
his love of...Kropotkin
...it's been a long time since I read him, but I'm pretty sure he wasn't in favor of anything recognizable as a free market. Bakunin neither.
I tried really, really hard to be sympathetic to the people portrayed in the article, who after all are both victims and losers, and I failed miserably
I struggle with this often. These men are just pawns, and late capitalism really couldn't care less if they and their families laid down and died. It's rough when the system you've reposed a quasi-religious faith in considers you little more than ambulatory garbage. But the curdled sense of entitlement--not to basics like food and housing and health care, but to superiority over everyone who's not a straight white Christian male--makes it extremely hard for me to sympathize. How do you sympathize with someone for being poor when they'd be content with being poor if only they didn't suspect that some black people were getting ahead? At some point, you are responsible for the quality of your own beliefs.
posted by praemunire at 10:04 PM on February 14, 2016 [18 favorites]
praemunire: "Well, when you say things like "calling up our sons and daughters to attack chaotic peoples that clearly have nothing to do with me or anybody I know," you're inviting the label of xenophobe. At the least. Other words do come to mind."
His quote is about assuming he's xenophobic because he prefers country life to city life. If you're finding him xenophobic because he says xenophobic stuff then great, that's a perfectly cromulent judgment call, but it has nothing to do with preferring country life to city life, which is the whole point of that sentence.
posted by Bugbread at 10:27 PM on February 14, 2016 [2 favorites]
His quote is about assuming he's xenophobic because he prefers country life to city life. If you're finding him xenophobic because he says xenophobic stuff then great, that's a perfectly cromulent judgment call, but it has nothing to do with preferring country life to city life, which is the whole point of that sentence.
posted by Bugbread at 10:27 PM on February 14, 2016 [2 favorites]
There is something ridiculously cool about all that stuff, in the same way that Larkin charts are
I have definitely seen a couple of Larkin's charts in passing but I never knew what they were or got a good look at them. I think you just steered me to a rabbit hole; careful and striking draftsmanship will get me all the more quickly onboard with some weirdness.
posted by cortex at 10:31 PM on February 14, 2016
I have definitely seen a couple of Larkin's charts in passing but I never knew what they were or got a good look at them. I think you just steered me to a rabbit hole; careful and striking draftsmanship will get me all the more quickly onboard with some weirdness.
posted by cortex at 10:31 PM on February 14, 2016
I gotta say there is still just a whiff of something funny with a few of his statements. Am I wrong to get hint of the sense of persecution or alienation we see in the occupiers? Does anyone automatically think someone is "a xenophobe, a noxious nativist" "[f]or loving wilderness and empty lands and birdsong rather than teeming cities"?
He also seems to like and know guns and think private ownership of guns is crucial to the functioning of the Republic. Lots of countries work just fine without them.
He's definitely on a different intellectual plane than at least the final four, but still.
I don't understand his use of chaotic in that way actually, just as an aside.
posted by Trochanter at 10:53 PM on February 14, 2016 [5 favorites]
He also seems to like and know guns and think private ownership of guns is crucial to the functioning of the Republic. Lots of countries work just fine without them.
He's definitely on a different intellectual plane than at least the final four, but still.
I don't understand his use of chaotic in that way actually, just as an aside.
posted by Trochanter at 10:53 PM on February 14, 2016 [5 favorites]
After the military used their satelites with ground penetrating radar, they announced Afghanistan has the world's largest lodes of Lithium.
If this was how mining assessment really worked, life for mining companies would be much, much, much easier.
posted by GuyZero at 11:07 PM on February 14, 2016 [33 favorites]
If this was how mining assessment really worked, life for mining companies would be much, much, much easier.
posted by GuyZero at 11:07 PM on February 14, 2016 [33 favorites]
Am I wrong to get hint of the sense of persecution or alienation we see in the occupiers?
This is part of the point of the article - the author thinks he should be able to identify with the occupiers, he thinks he shares beliefs with them.
It turns out that even alienated, persecuted people think the Oregon occupiers are crazy.
posted by GuyZero at 11:08 PM on February 14, 2016 [3 favorites]
This is part of the point of the article - the author thinks he should be able to identify with the occupiers, he thinks he shares beliefs with them.
It turns out that even alienated, persecuted people think the Oregon occupiers are crazy.
posted by GuyZero at 11:08 PM on February 14, 2016 [3 favorites]
Trochanter: "Does anyone automatically think someone is "a xenophobe, a noxious nativist" "[f]or loving wilderness and empty lands and birdsong rather than teeming cities"?"
Yes? Well, rather, it depends on what state you're from. If you're from Washington state or Oregon or California or the like and you talk about liking the countryside, people don't assume you're racist. If you're from Texas or Alabama or the like and you talk about liking the city, people don't assume you're racist. But if you're from Texas or Alabama or the like and you talk about liking the country, yeah, people assume you're racist.
Trochanter: "I don't understand his use of chaotic in that way actually, just as an aside."
Yeah, my problem with that sentence is the "peoples". Chaotic nations? Sure, the U.S. is militarily involved in chaotic nations (many of which are chaotic because of the U.S., some of which are not). But I don't think of the peoples as being chaotic.
posted by Bugbread at 11:09 PM on February 14, 2016 [2 favorites]
Yes? Well, rather, it depends on what state you're from. If you're from Washington state or Oregon or California or the like and you talk about liking the countryside, people don't assume you're racist. If you're from Texas or Alabama or the like and you talk about liking the city, people don't assume you're racist. But if you're from Texas or Alabama or the like and you talk about liking the country, yeah, people assume you're racist.
Trochanter: "I don't understand his use of chaotic in that way actually, just as an aside."
Yeah, my problem with that sentence is the "peoples". Chaotic nations? Sure, the U.S. is militarily involved in chaotic nations (many of which are chaotic because of the U.S., some of which are not). But I don't think of the peoples as being chaotic.
posted by Bugbread at 11:09 PM on February 14, 2016 [2 favorites]
I have definitely seen a couple of Larkin's charts in passing but I never knew what they were or got a good look at them. I think you just steered me to a rabbit hole; careful and striking draftsmanship will get me all the more quickly onboard with some weirdness.
There's a bit on them back in the High Weirdness By Mail post. My first exposure to them was when my family was staying with some relatives who were, apparently, dyed-in-the-wool dispensationalists, and they had these CHARTS on the wall, dire in portent and sourced in madness. Check the links in the sidebar on this page.
posted by JHarris at 11:35 PM on February 14, 2016 [4 favorites]
There's a bit on them back in the High Weirdness By Mail post. My first exposure to them was when my family was staying with some relatives who were, apparently, dyed-in-the-wool dispensationalists, and they had these CHARTS on the wall, dire in portent and sourced in madness. Check the links in the sidebar on this page.
posted by JHarris at 11:35 PM on February 14, 2016 [4 favorites]
I'm sorry, but sentences that proclaim the existence of orbital ground-penetrating radar make remote sensing analysts across all realms of inquiry simultaneously roll their eyes and wish the future would hurry the fuck up already.
posted by Emperor SnooKloze at 11:59 PM on February 14, 2016 [15 favorites]
posted by Emperor SnooKloze at 11:59 PM on February 14, 2016 [15 favorites]
I am isolated by a culture that is as inscrutable to me as any in the mountains of Afghanistan. For loving wilderness and empty lands and birdsong rather than teeming cities, I risk being called a xenophobe, a noxious nativist.
what
I think this is an implicit comparison to Ed Abbey. Abbey was super-duper anti-immigration. If he were alive today, he'd be like, "Giant wall? Sounds awesome. There are too many people in the world. If they come here, they'll take all our wilderness." And people were like, "Whoa. Ed. My man. Chill."
It was one of the more noxious things about Abbey. He was, in a lot of ways, kind of an annoying kook. Like, if he were alive today and not a famous writer, and you met him at a party, you would be like, "Jesus. Get a load of this guy. Wow."
posted by compartment at 12:03 AM on February 15, 2016 [9 favorites]
what
I think this is an implicit comparison to Ed Abbey. Abbey was super-duper anti-immigration. If he were alive today, he'd be like, "Giant wall? Sounds awesome. There are too many people in the world. If they come here, they'll take all our wilderness." And people were like, "Whoa. Ed. My man. Chill."
It was one of the more noxious things about Abbey. He was, in a lot of ways, kind of an annoying kook. Like, if he were alive today and not a famous writer, and you met him at a party, you would be like, "Jesus. Get a load of this guy. Wow."
posted by compartment at 12:03 AM on February 15, 2016 [9 favorites]
Yeah, fuck a bunch of conspiracy theories.
I appreciated Herring's attempt to bring some sort of context to this fiasco. The PR value of the demonstration is chilling. It's a freak magnet. The purpose of this sort of project, in good hands, would be to polarize the public, and bring the fence-straddler down on one side or the other. The question is which quid gets the quo? I don't see these small-time eccentrics being the benefactors of the transition of federal lands to private ownership.
It's easy to dismiss them as clowns, but I fear them. I fear more those to whom these misguided fools are acting as catspaws. I fear them because some of my friends and relations believe in them. I despise them because they make a mockery of reason. I fear them because some crazy people scare the shit out of me.
posted by mule98J at 12:47 AM on February 15, 2016 [3 favorites]
I appreciated Herring's attempt to bring some sort of context to this fiasco. The PR value of the demonstration is chilling. It's a freak magnet. The purpose of this sort of project, in good hands, would be to polarize the public, and bring the fence-straddler down on one side or the other. The question is which quid gets the quo? I don't see these small-time eccentrics being the benefactors of the transition of federal lands to private ownership.
It's easy to dismiss them as clowns, but I fear them. I fear more those to whom these misguided fools are acting as catspaws. I fear them because some of my friends and relations believe in them. I despise them because they make a mockery of reason. I fear them because some crazy people scare the shit out of me.
posted by mule98J at 12:47 AM on February 15, 2016 [3 favorites]
mule98J: "I fear them. I fear more those to whom these misguided fools are acting as catspaws."
I fear the people whose hands they play into, but if you were to ask me "Who do you fear more, a politician trying to sell off a national park to a private company to make a bunch of money, or some yahoos in camouflage with loaded machine guns who advocate shooting the police", I've got to say I'm more scared of the crazy people with machine guns.
posted by Bugbread at 1:15 AM on February 15, 2016
I fear the people whose hands they play into, but if you were to ask me "Who do you fear more, a politician trying to sell off a national park to a private company to make a bunch of money, or some yahoos in camouflage with loaded machine guns who advocate shooting the police", I've got to say I'm more scared of the crazy people with machine guns.
posted by Bugbread at 1:15 AM on February 15, 2016
I don't know if the Hammond ranch is right over the Uranium
Then how about not speculating wildly? The last thing this mess needs is another layer of conspiracy.
posted by Ned G at 1:20 AM on February 15, 2016 [13 favorites]
Then how about not speculating wildly? The last thing this mess needs is another layer of conspiracy.
posted by Ned G at 1:20 AM on February 15, 2016 [13 favorites]
Orbital Ground Penetrating Radar? Sure, why not?
posted by effugas at 2:05 AM on February 15, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by effugas at 2:05 AM on February 15, 2016 [1 favorite]
Who do you fear more
This is the worst way to determine who your enemies are.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 3:26 AM on February 15, 2016 [11 favorites]
This is the worst way to determine who your enemies are.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 3:26 AM on February 15, 2016 [11 favorites]
Yes? Well, rather, it depends on what state you're from. If you're from Washington state or Oregon or California or the like and you talk about liking the countryside, people don't assume you're racist. If you're from Texas or Alabama or the like and you talk about liking the city, people don't assume you're racist. But if you're from Texas or Alabama or the like and you talk about liking the country, yeah, people assume you're racist.
First, I guess you're speaking only of white people from the country in Texas and Alabama being racist? In the south, the "country" has plenty of black people in it, too, and modernly, lots of Latinos as well, and folks don't generally get along any worse in the country than they do for the city. The only exception would be Appalachia, which is still mostly white. That's certainly true for Alabama, which includes a healthy swath of the Black Belt. And obviously rural Texas has plenty of Latinos in it, since it was their land to begin with.
Or are you saying people not from Texas or Alabama assume white people from Texas or Alabama who like the country are racist? And is that just because people not from Texas and Alabama don't know much about Texas or Alabama?
posted by hydropsyche at 4:35 AM on February 15, 2016 [5 favorites]
First, I guess you're speaking only of white people from the country in Texas and Alabama being racist? In the south, the "country" has plenty of black people in it, too, and modernly, lots of Latinos as well, and folks don't generally get along any worse in the country than they do for the city. The only exception would be Appalachia, which is still mostly white. That's certainly true for Alabama, which includes a healthy swath of the Black Belt. And obviously rural Texas has plenty of Latinos in it, since it was their land to begin with.
Or are you saying people not from Texas or Alabama assume white people from Texas or Alabama who like the country are racist? And is that just because people not from Texas and Alabama don't know much about Texas or Alabama?
posted by hydropsyche at 4:35 AM on February 15, 2016 [5 favorites]
(On preview, thanks--that's way better than mine was turning out to be.)
posted by box at 4:40 AM on February 15, 2016
posted by box at 4:40 AM on February 15, 2016
I'd love to have real orbital GPR, I don't know about you. It would solve a number of really intractable remote sensing problems. Does anyone have this agency's email?
posted by bonehead at 4:46 AM on February 15, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by bonehead at 4:46 AM on February 15, 2016 [1 favorite]
hydropsyche: "Or are you saying people not from Texas or Alabama assume white people from Texas or Alabama who like the country are racist? And is that just because people not from Texas and Alabama don't know much about Texas or Alabama?"
Yes, that's what I meant, and I wasn't being exhaustive in my list of what kinds of southerners and southwesterners. I'm talking about white, cis-looking, straight-presenting, non-hippie-looking, non-high-fashion-wearing, non-artist-looking people (there may be more exceptions that don't occur to me now). I can't really say why those people make that assumption.
(Disclaimer: I'm from Texas, but I like cities more than the country, and I haven't lived in Texas for a long time, so I haven't gotten this very much at all. I did have someone feel me out really tentatively when we first talked politics, until he realized I liked Obama, and then he breathed a sigh of relief, and when I asked him about it, he was nervous that I would be a big racist because "you know, you're from Texas")
posted by Bugbread at 4:50 AM on February 15, 2016 [2 favorites]
Yes, that's what I meant, and I wasn't being exhaustive in my list of what kinds of southerners and southwesterners. I'm talking about white, cis-looking, straight-presenting, non-hippie-looking, non-high-fashion-wearing, non-artist-looking people (there may be more exceptions that don't occur to me now). I can't really say why those people make that assumption.
(Disclaimer: I'm from Texas, but I like cities more than the country, and I haven't lived in Texas for a long time, so I haven't gotten this very much at all. I did have someone feel me out really tentatively when we first talked politics, until he realized I liked Obama, and then he breathed a sigh of relief, and when I asked him about it, he was nervous that I would be a big racist because "you know, you're from Texas")
posted by Bugbread at 4:50 AM on February 15, 2016 [2 favorites]
I have to admit that describing cities as "teeming" sets off my you-might-be-a-racist spidey sense in a way that saying that cities were crowded or frenetic wouldn't. It is possible that he's been a victim of anti-rural prejudice, but it's also possible that people think he's a xenophobe because they're picking up on some loaded terminology that he's using.
Anyway, it's an interesting, well-written piece.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 4:56 AM on February 15, 2016 [5 favorites]
Anyway, it's an interesting, well-written piece.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 4:56 AM on February 15, 2016 [5 favorites]
I've been looking through my fingers at this debacle since it started... this piece is the first one I've been able to read with any kind of focus, maybe because the incident is "over" now or maybe because this is the first article that provides any deep context about the people involved.
I'm about as lefty/blue state as they come, but I have quite a few red state relatives whom I respect and who are more than happy to live where they do, and like many I'm deeply suspicious of the U.S. government.
Thanks for posting.
posted by Sheydem-tants at 5:15 AM on February 15, 2016
I'm about as lefty/blue state as they come, but I have quite a few red state relatives whom I respect and who are more than happy to live where they do, and like many I'm deeply suspicious of the U.S. government.
Thanks for posting.
posted by Sheydem-tants at 5:15 AM on February 15, 2016
He also seems to like and know guns and think private ownership of guns is crucial to the functioning of the Republic. Lots of countries work just fine without them.
I think their response to this would be, "Yeah. For now. But just wait."
posted by You Should See the Other Guy at 5:26 AM on February 15, 2016
I think their response to this would be, "Yeah. For now. But just wait."
posted by You Should See the Other Guy at 5:26 AM on February 15, 2016
>His father told The Associated Press that the younger Banta may have learned his distrust of the U.S. government from him growing up hunting and fishing in the wide-open spaces of rural northern Nevada.
i.e. he learned his distrust of the U.S. Government by never actually having any contact with them.
posted by kcds at 6:27 AM on February 15, 2016 [4 favorites]
i.e. he learned his distrust of the U.S. Government by never actually having any contact with them.
posted by kcds at 6:27 AM on February 15, 2016 [4 favorites]
I think it was pretty Jeffersonian
Jefferson was no socialist. In any case the settlement of the West doesn't follow Louisiana-purchase lines or implement Jefferson's vision of a nation of smallholders; it's a phenomenon of the latter half of the nineteenth century, and it was driven by financial speculation fueled by (and requiring) a commitment to expansionism. The idea that this program was motivated by benevolent ends designed to shape the American character and expand the landholding class is not well supported. For one thing, it was racist - land settlement was made available to white people, not Natives, and African-Americans were prohibited from taking advantage of the 1862 Homestead Act. Changes came around later, but there was a fair amount of de facto discrimination until Reconstruction-era laws specifically made it a crime to exclude blacks. Part of the driver for offering subsidized land was a focused effort to replace the Native population (problematic for the federal government) with a presumably friendlier white one, in order to fully control territory and limit armed disruptions and border threats. A good head count was needed to reinforce federal land grabs, since holding territory by military occupation alone was unsustainable, as the Indian wars demonstrated.
Second, it was capitalized. Where the project of Western settlement could seem somewhat socialist, it's because the entire project was subsidized by urban Eastern taxpayers - that is, the land was "free" or available via easy, low-interest loan because the public had already footed the bill for surveying, Indian removal and defense provided by the federal military, etc. In that respect, it redistributed wealth from East to West. But what it really reflects is the American pattern of deploying public commitments to support capitalist ends, funding expenses publicly while privatizing profits. But the profits were never going to return to the state to fund further improvements for the general population. It was the interests of the land speculators/railroads/mining interests that steered political action in Congress at that time, complete with heavies to ensure votes went the right way, and there was a lot of money made in booms associated with the opening up of parcels of land around proposed railway station sites, land-grant universities, etc.
The vision did not emerge from a Jeffersonian desire to populate the land with free people doing subsistence farming; it was about controlling territory and creating markets. (Many of which, predictably, fell like houses of cards in the Western boom-and-bust cycle.) I'd say the land programs exploited the sentimentality of Jefferson's vision, but did so for ends that were fundamentally economic and political: to assert US control of territory (including Western ports) then occupied by Natives and being eyed by other governments, and to promote large-scale business in shipping, mining, and agriculture.
posted by Miko at 6:35 AM on February 15, 2016 [22 favorites]
Jefferson was no socialist. In any case the settlement of the West doesn't follow Louisiana-purchase lines or implement Jefferson's vision of a nation of smallholders; it's a phenomenon of the latter half of the nineteenth century, and it was driven by financial speculation fueled by (and requiring) a commitment to expansionism. The idea that this program was motivated by benevolent ends designed to shape the American character and expand the landholding class is not well supported. For one thing, it was racist - land settlement was made available to white people, not Natives, and African-Americans were prohibited from taking advantage of the 1862 Homestead Act. Changes came around later, but there was a fair amount of de facto discrimination until Reconstruction-era laws specifically made it a crime to exclude blacks. Part of the driver for offering subsidized land was a focused effort to replace the Native population (problematic for the federal government) with a presumably friendlier white one, in order to fully control territory and limit armed disruptions and border threats. A good head count was needed to reinforce federal land grabs, since holding territory by military occupation alone was unsustainable, as the Indian wars demonstrated.
Second, it was capitalized. Where the project of Western settlement could seem somewhat socialist, it's because the entire project was subsidized by urban Eastern taxpayers - that is, the land was "free" or available via easy, low-interest loan because the public had already footed the bill for surveying, Indian removal and defense provided by the federal military, etc. In that respect, it redistributed wealth from East to West. But what it really reflects is the American pattern of deploying public commitments to support capitalist ends, funding expenses publicly while privatizing profits. But the profits were never going to return to the state to fund further improvements for the general population. It was the interests of the land speculators/railroads/mining interests that steered political action in Congress at that time, complete with heavies to ensure votes went the right way, and there was a lot of money made in booms associated with the opening up of parcels of land around proposed railway station sites, land-grant universities, etc.
The vision did not emerge from a Jeffersonian desire to populate the land with free people doing subsistence farming; it was about controlling territory and creating markets. (Many of which, predictably, fell like houses of cards in the Western boom-and-bust cycle.) I'd say the land programs exploited the sentimentality of Jefferson's vision, but did so for ends that were fundamentally economic and political: to assert US control of territory (including Western ports) then occupied by Natives and being eyed by other governments, and to promote large-scale business in shipping, mining, and agriculture.
posted by Miko at 6:35 AM on February 15, 2016 [22 favorites]
The thing of it is, is, there are so many reasons to distrust the U.S. Gov't, but these guys hardly got any of them right.
Also, Ursula Le Guin has been posting about this, as someone who loves both city and country, I think:
http://www.ursulakleguin.com/Index-HighNoonHarneyCounty.html
posted by allthinky at 6:40 AM on February 15, 2016 [8 favorites]
Also, Ursula Le Guin has been posting about this, as someone who loves both city and country, I think:
http://www.ursulakleguin.com/Index-HighNoonHarneyCounty.html
posted by allthinky at 6:40 AM on February 15, 2016 [8 favorites]
There is something ridiculously cool about all that stuff...It's like the world building impulse
Thank you! You put your finger on what I find so fascinating about it. I've bored everyone I know with SovCit theory over the past few weeks, and I wasn't sure why I was finding it quite so fascinating. It's like so many such highly architected imaginings.
posted by Miko at 6:49 AM on February 15, 2016 [2 favorites]
Thank you! You put your finger on what I find so fascinating about it. I've bored everyone I know with SovCit theory over the past few weeks, and I wasn't sure why I was finding it quite so fascinating. It's like so many such highly architected imaginings.
posted by Miko at 6:49 AM on February 15, 2016 [2 favorites]
robocop is bleeding: front page post please (regarding the sovereign citizen movement)
posted by iffthen at 7:33 AM on February 15, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by iffthen at 7:33 AM on February 15, 2016 [2 favorites]
i.e. he learned his distrust of the U.S. Government by never actually having any contact with them.
I have lots of thoughts about the article, but I felt it was more important to jump on this point. If a large-enough subset of the "occupiers" had any actual education about how government works, I suspect this whole stupid incident would never have happened. Government in the West is not something magical - it's composed of many individual human beings. There's always a few bad apples, but by and large, those human beings are very interested in solving problems and reducing suffering in the best way they can.
My (useless) hypothetical is to consider what would have played out if a couple of these folks were friends with people who actually worked for the Bureau of Land Management. And friends not in the sense of "saying hi at the store," but friends in the sense of "have a beer together every week or two," or better. Pretty quickly these would-be occupiers would figure out that there's issues they aren't considering (and there usually are), and that there's a reason for current policy and that the way to progress and change things is not to take over a fucking wildlife refuge.
Distance of normal citizens, especially "fringe" ones, from members of government really hurts.
posted by iffthen at 7:48 AM on February 15, 2016 [5 favorites]
I have lots of thoughts about the article, but I felt it was more important to jump on this point. If a large-enough subset of the "occupiers" had any actual education about how government works, I suspect this whole stupid incident would never have happened. Government in the West is not something magical - it's composed of many individual human beings. There's always a few bad apples, but by and large, those human beings are very interested in solving problems and reducing suffering in the best way they can.
My (useless) hypothetical is to consider what would have played out if a couple of these folks were friends with people who actually worked for the Bureau of Land Management. And friends not in the sense of "saying hi at the store," but friends in the sense of "have a beer together every week or two," or better. Pretty quickly these would-be occupiers would figure out that there's issues they aren't considering (and there usually are), and that there's a reason for current policy and that the way to progress and change things is not to take over a fucking wildlife refuge.
Distance of normal citizens, especially "fringe" ones, from members of government really hurts.
posted by iffthen at 7:48 AM on February 15, 2016 [5 favorites]
Heh. The trick is finding a good set of "primary" documents that don't slide to racism/antisemitism in a few clicks. Even the site I linked to above, if you look at what else is hosted there, has a few links to the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, anti-Muslim hate, and so on. While I'm interested in the twisted ARG aspect of the movement (are you an American Citizen or a citizen of the United States? One is governed by law the other policy! One has rights the other only privileges!) I don't want to give any of that other crap page views.
posted by robocop is bleeding at 7:51 AM on February 15, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by robocop is bleeding at 7:51 AM on February 15, 2016 [2 favorites]
Two pieces of this article resonated with me.
To focus on the bizarre, to wallow in the cheap pleasures of ridicule, is to sacrifice any chance of finding meaning or instruction here.
I was really glad he made this statement, because it's all too easy to other these guys without understanding why they're there. It would be a very easy trap for him to fall into in telling the story. I'm glad he didn't.
Guns, for as long as we have had them, have given undue impetus to arguments that lack merit or reason, given credence to delusional rants.
Christ, this. I've been thinking something along these lines for a long time, and there was a nearly audible *snap* in my head as he summed up a...mushy....concept I'd been noodling over for a while.
posted by Thistledown at 8:03 AM on February 15, 2016 [14 favorites]
To focus on the bizarre, to wallow in the cheap pleasures of ridicule, is to sacrifice any chance of finding meaning or instruction here.
I was really glad he made this statement, because it's all too easy to other these guys without understanding why they're there. It would be a very easy trap for him to fall into in telling the story. I'm glad he didn't.
Guns, for as long as we have had them, have given undue impetus to arguments that lack merit or reason, given credence to delusional rants.
Christ, this. I've been thinking something along these lines for a long time, and there was a nearly audible *snap* in my head as he summed up a...mushy....concept I'd been noodling over for a while.
posted by Thistledown at 8:03 AM on February 15, 2016 [14 favorites]
From Robocop is bleeding's link - this is amazing, I love his BAR acronym:
"I wanted to know why the courts would not uphold the plain words of the law. Then, recently, I found out.
What first dawned on me, is that American Citizen's have no standing in court. Therefore any time an American Citizen went to court and claimed not to be liable for income tax, because the constitution says direct taxes have to be apportioned, they were ruled against. It IS a frivolous argument, because only a U.S. citizen has standing in today's courts, and since you WERE in court making a claim, the presumption was made that it was a U.S. citizen making the claim (a correct presumption), and since the U.S. citizen does not have inalienable rights secured by the constitution, it was a frivolous argument and against public policy. Only sovereign American's can claim inalienable rights, secured by the constitution, and sovereign's will not be found in court. U.S. citizens can only claim privileges and immunities secured by the statutes, so anytime you enter the court's jurisdiction, your are correctly presumed to be a U.S. citizen, there on a statutory issue.
An Oklahoma Supreme Court justice stated it in a nutshell when he described the first level state courts in Oklahoma as "statutory non-constitutional" courts. The same is true in all states and in the federal court system. When you file a federal case you must submit a cover sheet showing the nature of the suit. Nowhere on the sheet is there a space for "inalienable rights". The only section that is close is labeled "civil rights".
The courts today are private corporate courts run by the BAR (British Accreditation Regency) Association. Think about this a minute. Attorneys are considered by statute and by court decisions to be "officers of the court". Their first duty is to the court, not to you! Judges, Prosecutors and private practice attorneys are all attorneys and therefore are all officers of the court. Since all these officers are dealing in the same commodity, statutes, they would be statute "merchants", as "merchants" is defined by the Uniform Commercial Code at (UCC) 2-104(1). All the statutes are written by attorneys. Most business legal decisions are made by attorneys. Prosecutions are made by attorneys. Defenses are made by attorneys. Judgments are made by attorneys. Officers of the court are in fact just government agents. These agents are also U.S. citizens and they main job is to collect revenue to pay the federal debt. Therefore the whole court system and all attorneys have just modified the legal system into a business entity, designed to run as many people through as fast as they can, and collect the most revenue. And what is the one product of this business? Statutes. There are over 3 million law and statute BOOKS, and over 60 million statutes! Do you know them ALL? Remember, ignorance of the law is no excuse.
Again, all definitions quoted in this chapter are from Black's Law Dictionary 6th Edition, unless otherwise noted.
Up until 1933, we operated under Public Law. After 1933 we operated under Public Policy. What is the difference?
Public law. That branch or department of law which is concerned with the state in its political or sovereign capacity, including constitutional and administrative law, and with the definition, regulation, and enforcement of rights where the state is regarded as the subject of the right or object of the duty, . . . That portion of law which is concerned with political conditions; that is to say, with the powers, rights, duties, capacities, and incapacities which are peculiar to political superiors, supreme and subordinate.
Before 1933 we had public law, based on rights, constitutions, statutes, etc., and the state was the subject of the rights and the object of the duty to protect those rights. If you went to court, you went as a sovereign with inalienable rights, and the courts upheld them.
After 1933, when everybody's status changed, we then went under public policy."
Please, someone, anyone, analyse this for me/us!
posted by marienbad at 8:28 AM on February 15, 2016 [1 favorite]
"I wanted to know why the courts would not uphold the plain words of the law. Then, recently, I found out.
What first dawned on me, is that American Citizen's have no standing in court. Therefore any time an American Citizen went to court and claimed not to be liable for income tax, because the constitution says direct taxes have to be apportioned, they were ruled against. It IS a frivolous argument, because only a U.S. citizen has standing in today's courts, and since you WERE in court making a claim, the presumption was made that it was a U.S. citizen making the claim (a correct presumption), and since the U.S. citizen does not have inalienable rights secured by the constitution, it was a frivolous argument and against public policy. Only sovereign American's can claim inalienable rights, secured by the constitution, and sovereign's will not be found in court. U.S. citizens can only claim privileges and immunities secured by the statutes, so anytime you enter the court's jurisdiction, your are correctly presumed to be a U.S. citizen, there on a statutory issue.
An Oklahoma Supreme Court justice stated it in a nutshell when he described the first level state courts in Oklahoma as "statutory non-constitutional" courts. The same is true in all states and in the federal court system. When you file a federal case you must submit a cover sheet showing the nature of the suit. Nowhere on the sheet is there a space for "inalienable rights". The only section that is close is labeled "civil rights".
The courts today are private corporate courts run by the BAR (British Accreditation Regency) Association. Think about this a minute. Attorneys are considered by statute and by court decisions to be "officers of the court". Their first duty is to the court, not to you! Judges, Prosecutors and private practice attorneys are all attorneys and therefore are all officers of the court. Since all these officers are dealing in the same commodity, statutes, they would be statute "merchants", as "merchants" is defined by the Uniform Commercial Code at (UCC) 2-104(1). All the statutes are written by attorneys. Most business legal decisions are made by attorneys. Prosecutions are made by attorneys. Defenses are made by attorneys. Judgments are made by attorneys. Officers of the court are in fact just government agents. These agents are also U.S. citizens and they main job is to collect revenue to pay the federal debt. Therefore the whole court system and all attorneys have just modified the legal system into a business entity, designed to run as many people through as fast as they can, and collect the most revenue. And what is the one product of this business? Statutes. There are over 3 million law and statute BOOKS, and over 60 million statutes! Do you know them ALL? Remember, ignorance of the law is no excuse.
Again, all definitions quoted in this chapter are from Black's Law Dictionary 6th Edition, unless otherwise noted.
Up until 1933, we operated under Public Law. After 1933 we operated under Public Policy. What is the difference?
Public law. That branch or department of law which is concerned with the state in its political or sovereign capacity, including constitutional and administrative law, and with the definition, regulation, and enforcement of rights where the state is regarded as the subject of the right or object of the duty, . . . That portion of law which is concerned with political conditions; that is to say, with the powers, rights, duties, capacities, and incapacities which are peculiar to political superiors, supreme and subordinate.
Before 1933 we had public law, based on rights, constitutions, statutes, etc., and the state was the subject of the rights and the object of the duty to protect those rights. If you went to court, you went as a sovereign with inalienable rights, and the courts upheld them.
After 1933, when everybody's status changed, we then went under public policy."
Please, someone, anyone, analyse this for me/us!
posted by marienbad at 8:28 AM on February 15, 2016 [1 favorite]
Please, someone, anyone, analyse this for me/us!
This pretty well covers it.
posted by kewb at 8:45 AM on February 15, 2016 [1 favorite]
This pretty well covers it.
posted by kewb at 8:45 AM on February 15, 2016 [1 favorite]
Please, someone, anyone, analyse this for me/us!
It's the belief in law as witchcraft--the belief that the evocation of certain symbols and magic words (or even familiar words written in a certain way, e.g. writing your name in all caps) can either put you under the command of shadowy forces or keep you safe from the same forces.
posted by Halloween Jack at 8:55 AM on February 15, 2016 [11 favorites]
It's the belief in law as witchcraft--the belief that the evocation of certain symbols and magic words (or even familiar words written in a certain way, e.g. writing your name in all caps) can either put you under the command of shadowy forces or keep you safe from the same forces.
posted by Halloween Jack at 8:55 AM on February 15, 2016 [11 favorites]
Jefferson was no socialist
http://thinkprogress.org/yglesias/2011/06/05/236839/thomas-jefferson-on-the-limits-of-property-rights/
It was the interests of the land speculators/railroads/mining interests that steered political action in Congress at that time, complete with heavies to ensure votes went the right way, and there was a lot of money made in booms associated with the opening up of parcels of land around proposed railway station sites, land-grant universities, etc.
Sure, the GOP was running things at the time, yes, and utterly corrupt, more than even now perhaps. The Progressive Movement (in California at least) was a Republican (i.e. center-right) offshoot attempting to clean house.
posted by Heywood Mogroot III at 9:19 AM on February 15, 2016
http://thinkprogress.org/yglesias/2011/06/05/236839/thomas-jefferson-on-the-limits-of-property-rights/
It was the interests of the land speculators/railroads/mining interests that steered political action in Congress at that time, complete with heavies to ensure votes went the right way, and there was a lot of money made in booms associated with the opening up of parcels of land around proposed railway station sites, land-grant universities, etc.
Sure, the GOP was running things at the time, yes, and utterly corrupt, more than even now perhaps. The Progressive Movement (in California at least) was a Republican (i.e. center-right) offshoot attempting to clean house.
posted by Heywood Mogroot III at 9:19 AM on February 15, 2016
Also, in reading through the article, I'm almost immeasurably disappointed in this:
posted by Halloween Jack at 9:22 AM on February 15, 2016 [1 favorite]
To focus on the bizarre, to wallow in the cheap pleasures of ridicule, is to sacrifice any chance of finding meaning or instruction here.This was right after he talked about James, the legless man who "insisted on being lifted from his chair so he could kneel in the cold mud beside the fire pit and pray for us all", and that after the guy whose car was covered with ads and URLs for professional government-installed-microchip removal. I can dig not wanting "to wallow in the cheap pleasures of ridicule", but there is meaning in noting who's showing up to this thing, especially as there weren't that many people to begin with. He seems to want everyone to be more like Jason Patrick or Duane Ehmer, but he can't even bring himself to mention Jon Ritzheimer, one of the more visible (and notorious) of the occupants.
posted by Halloween Jack at 9:22 AM on February 15, 2016 [1 favorite]
http://oregonforests.org/content/forest-ownership-interactive-map
tangentially relevant, in that I think it shows how the criminal mistakes of the 19th century are still with us today, grinding us down.
Google Earth showing the clearcutting . . .
posted by Heywood Mogroot III at 9:28 AM on February 15, 2016 [2 favorites]
tangentially relevant, in that I think it shows how the criminal mistakes of the 19th century are still with us today, grinding us down.
Google Earth showing the clearcutting . . .
posted by Heywood Mogroot III at 9:28 AM on February 15, 2016 [2 favorites]
It's not that they're stupid - which is no one's fault - but it's their willful ignorance of their own history, of the law, of pretty well everything; it's their belief that their guns make them big men;
We re-watched The Big Lebowski last night, and Walter Sobchak embodies this notion... then you haveCliven Bundy Sam Elliot advising the characters. Hmm, now I'm wondering if Fry is Donny, who seems to be a more central character than I had previously thought.
Sorry about the tangent.
posted by sneebler at 9:36 AM on February 15, 2016
We re-watched The Big Lebowski last night, and Walter Sobchak embodies this notion... then you have
Sorry about the tangent.
posted by sneebler at 9:36 AM on February 15, 2016
It's worth noting, Malheur NWR is not included on that forest-land-only interactive map at all.
There are no forests at Malheur NWR because it is a high basin desert that receives only 6 inches of rain a year. It is mostly sagebrush and grass.
posted by JackFlash at 10:04 AM on February 15, 2016
There are no forests at Malheur NWR because it is a high basin desert that receives only 6 inches of rain a year. It is mostly sagebrush and grass.
posted by JackFlash at 10:04 AM on February 15, 2016
Jason Patrick, one of the eleven occupiers now in jail, told me that he could not care less what happened to the lands at the Malheur, or what the history of the place was. “It says in Article 1, Section 8, Clause 17, that the federal government has no right to own any of these lands. That’s it. If we don’t abide by the Constitution, which limits what the federal government can do, then we have no rule of law, we have no country.”Except the 17th clause of Article 1, Section 8 of the Constitution doesn't actually say that.
To exercise exclusive Legislation in all Cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten Miles square) as may, by Cession of particular States, and the Acceptance of Congress, become the Seat of the Government of the United States, and to exercise like Authority over all Places purchased by the Consent of the Legislature of the State in which the Same shall be, for the Erection of Forts, Magazines, Arsenals, dock-Yards, and other needful Buildings;—AndI mean, I guess you could make a crackpot argument that "for the erection of [whatever]" excludes the Federal government from owning land it doesn't build on, except for the very next (and last) item in Article 1, Section 8:
To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof.… which basically says, "yo, the Federal Government can create its own laws and then carry them out," which is apparently non-obvious to these people. So if the government determines that it needs to own land for some purpose, it sure as hell can.
But anyway, the more remarkable thing to me is how little grasp these people have on their own self interest. Federal grazing rights are cheaper than land ownership once you figure in taxes and crop management. I mean, I guess maybe in their potted view their own private land wouldn't be subject to taxation either (apparently ignoring the very first item in Article 1, Section 8 of the Constitution they hold so dear), and maybe the recently departed Justice Scalia had Thoughts on federal ownership of land it wasn't building on (which would belong in the other thread), and maybe they're thinking that once they exhaust the crops on this land they can just take some other land instead because ruining the land isn't their problem, but WTF? Even ignoring the question of whether this particular set of individuals could even own the land in the first place (what with all the institutional owners who could crowd them out), can any of them see past their own noses to get to the point that they understand (A) how good they have it with grazing rights, and/or (2) how bad things would be for them if they actually had to pay for the land and its maintenance?
posted by fedward at 11:02 AM on February 15, 2016 [5 favorites]
I guess you could make a crackpot argument
Isn't that the modus operandi here?
posted by sneebler at 11:05 AM on February 15, 2016 [1 favorite]
Isn't that the modus operandi here?
posted by sneebler at 11:05 AM on February 15, 2016 [1 favorite]
> Guns, for as long as we have had them, have given undue impetus to arguments that lack merit or reason, given credence to delusional rants.
Yep. I said it in the previous thread: "It's amazing how these folk manage to be wrong in so many different ways. I guess that's why they need guns, and I guess they know it."
And as to the magic power of words aspect, did anyone else read all of Fred Clark's analysis of the Left Behind books? Along with skewering the bad novel bits he also gave a progressive Christian critique of the underlying theology.
He describes it as starting with taking the text of the Bible as an infallible authority and giving what you claim is a literal interpretation of it, but is actually very convoluted and metaphorical and some times just made up from whole cloth. Along with that you derive a credo (The Sinners Prayer) that, once you say it, you are under the protection of the strongest power (God). There are other beyond-human powers out there, like the Anti-Christ, but your having recited the right words puts you on the side of the strongest one. I keep being reminded of this when I hear these sovcits.
(I most certainly got some of the details wrong in my summary. Corrections appreciated.)
posted by benito.strauss at 11:09 AM on February 15, 2016 [9 favorites]
Yep. I said it in the previous thread: "It's amazing how these folk manage to be wrong in so many different ways. I guess that's why they need guns, and I guess they know it."
And as to the magic power of words aspect, did anyone else read all of Fred Clark's analysis of the Left Behind books? Along with skewering the bad novel bits he also gave a progressive Christian critique of the underlying theology.
He describes it as starting with taking the text of the Bible as an infallible authority and giving what you claim is a literal interpretation of it, but is actually very convoluted and metaphorical and some times just made up from whole cloth. Along with that you derive a credo (The Sinners Prayer) that, once you say it, you are under the protection of the strongest power (God). There are other beyond-human powers out there, like the Anti-Christ, but your having recited the right words puts you on the side of the strongest one. I keep being reminded of this when I hear these sovcits.
(I most certainly got some of the details wrong in my summary. Corrections appreciated.)
posted by benito.strauss at 11:09 AM on February 15, 2016 [9 favorites]
The law as magical incantations seems the one aspect of sovereign/militia etc. wingnuts that I have the most sympathy for. For a regular joe/sephine the courts are a mystery that oscillate from stratospheric cost to the folk wisdom of "you didn't capitalize the T in "the" so your lien is invalid" while shot through with deliberately or negligently impenetrable legalese. Is it any wonder that when with the stroke of a trust you can remove your assets from peril and qualify for medicaid as an impoverished but rich man that people believe in the magic of the law? You only have to scratch the surface of the housing collapse/financial crisis to see what money lets you get away with. Portland just settled with MERS for 9 million and if I were to start explaining what that is all about and why it is sorry justice I would probably sound just as demented as the Bundy's. (you can't even google MERS and get a relevant result.) If your interested in just an inkling here's the local news tidbit.
posted by Pembquist at 11:09 AM on February 15, 2016 [7 favorites]
posted by Pembquist at 11:09 AM on February 15, 2016 [7 favorites]
I guess you could make a crackpot argument
That argument's not a cracked pot, it's a beautiful pot composed of fragments of several unrelated pots.
posted by rhizome at 11:12 AM on February 15, 2016 [4 favorites]
That argument's not a cracked pot, it's a beautiful pot composed of fragments of several unrelated pots.
posted by rhizome at 11:12 AM on February 15, 2016 [4 favorites]
It’s a Kintsugi argument.
posted by Going To Maine at 11:13 AM on February 15, 2016 [6 favorites]
posted by Going To Maine at 11:13 AM on February 15, 2016 [6 favorites]
Although, in retrospect, I’d like to describe Hillary Clinton as having Kintsugi politics, so…
posted by Going To Maine at 11:14 AM on February 15, 2016
posted by Going To Maine at 11:14 AM on February 15, 2016
That argument's not a cracked pot, it's a beautiful pot composed of fragments of several unrelated pots.
But it was made with non-food-grade epoxy and also the pot still leaks.
posted by fedward at 11:27 AM on February 15, 2016 [1 favorite]
But it was made with non-food-grade epoxy and also the pot still leaks.
posted by fedward at 11:27 AM on February 15, 2016 [1 favorite]
Pembquist-- and that's the thing -- law is about magic words. I actually had a professor of civil procedure tell us that in lecture. It's about who has the power to make the words magic, isn't it?
posted by wuwei at 11:40 AM on February 15, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by wuwei at 11:40 AM on February 15, 2016 [3 favorites]
I am doing my best here to be respectful of people with whom, it turned out, I disagree strongly, even violently. I could focus upon the essential nuttiness of the occupation, the lack of a plan for an outcome, the exhaustion of being assailed with pocket Constitutions any time one presents an argument that cannot be easily countered. Crackpots are drawn to such an open event like moths to a halogen light (and, no, I do not automatically exempt myself from the category). I wanted to find occupiers who could argue for what they were doing, but what is there to say when people take up arms inspired by, say, a belief that the President is the front for an Islamic takeover of the nation, or that the Chinese are already committed to buying the uranium that lies underneath the Hammond ranch.This is riveting, thanks for sharing.
I listened to the Fry youtube stream off and on for a few hours, so I'm loving the on-the-ground context.
posted by Theta States at 11:57 AM on February 15, 2016 [1 favorite]
Like whaaaaaaaa
posted by Theta States at 11:59 AM on February 15, 2016
In the parking lot was a skinny bearded man in denim whose entire car was covered with professionally made ads for doctors who will surgically remove government-installed microchips from your brain (“If you were born after 1980…”).AND THE PHOTO OF THE CAR!
posted by Theta States at 11:59 AM on February 15, 2016
I mean, I guess you could make a crackpot argument that "for the erection of [whatever]" excludes the Federal government from owning land it doesn't build on
Their interpretation is even farther off than that. Art. I §8 cl. 17—the Enclave Clause—isn't about when the federal government can own property: it's about when the federal government can have exclusive jurisdiction over property. In other words, it's about creating enclaves within a state where state law doesn't apply and only federal law applies, e.g., the District of Columbia, military bases, etc.
Art.4 §3 cl. 2—the Property Clause—contemplates federal ownership of property: "The Congress shall have Power to dispose of and make all needful Rules and Regulations respecting the Territory or other Property belonging to the United States."
posted by fogovonslack at 12:19 PM on February 15, 2016 [7 favorites]
Their interpretation is even farther off than that. Art. I §8 cl. 17—the Enclave Clause—isn't about when the federal government can own property: it's about when the federal government can have exclusive jurisdiction over property. In other words, it's about creating enclaves within a state where state law doesn't apply and only federal law applies, e.g., the District of Columbia, military bases, etc.
Art.4 §3 cl. 2—the Property Clause—contemplates federal ownership of property: "The Congress shall have Power to dispose of and make all needful Rules and Regulations respecting the Territory or other Property belonging to the United States."
posted by fogovonslack at 12:19 PM on February 15, 2016 [7 favorites]
Pembquist-- and that's the thing -- law is about magic words. I actually had a professor of civil procedure tell us that in lecture. It's about who has the power to make the words magic, isn't it?
There is a magical aspect to law, and in a real sense the crazies are wrong only by matter of degree and basis.
When the police arrest you, they have to recite to you a specific sequence of words, and if they don't you later may have power over them when your case is overseen by a court wizard, and argued by other wizards. When you buy something major you have to affix your name (a potent talisman!) to a sequence of papers in order to transfer ownership, which might as well be dominion, a wholly metaphysical concept unrelated to any physical quality. When you install software, it presents screen after screen of incomprehensible mumbo-jumbo that you have to signify acceptance of, binding you to the agreement, through the sacred (or is it profane?) motion of your arm and hand. Magic isn't real, but in a sense, we have invented it, entirely out of human behavior, and as it becomes further removed from ordinary human experience it becomes more and more like a game that well-heeled people play at our expense, throwing words that signify nothing real except their magical meanings, which are in a way meta-real.
Computer programming and use, too, takes on magical aspects as it becomes more complex and obtuse. Entertaining a command at a line is not-coincidentally called invoking it.
And, subconsciously at least, all of these things are probably due to subconscious tendencies. Traditional magic is often about communicating intent, authoritatively and without possibility of misunderstanding due to whimiscal caprice, to invisible spirits. The law is about communicating intent from legislators to the governed, but some people know the secret formulas, known as loopholes, that let them evade that intent, or at least claim honest misunderstanding. And computers are pretty notorious for getting your commands to them wrong unless you are precise.
posted by JHarris at 12:28 PM on February 15, 2016 [32 favorites]
There is a magical aspect to law, and in a real sense the crazies are wrong only by matter of degree and basis.
When the police arrest you, they have to recite to you a specific sequence of words, and if they don't you later may have power over them when your case is overseen by a court wizard, and argued by other wizards. When you buy something major you have to affix your name (a potent talisman!) to a sequence of papers in order to transfer ownership, which might as well be dominion, a wholly metaphysical concept unrelated to any physical quality. When you install software, it presents screen after screen of incomprehensible mumbo-jumbo that you have to signify acceptance of, binding you to the agreement, through the sacred (or is it profane?) motion of your arm and hand. Magic isn't real, but in a sense, we have invented it, entirely out of human behavior, and as it becomes further removed from ordinary human experience it becomes more and more like a game that well-heeled people play at our expense, throwing words that signify nothing real except their magical meanings, which are in a way meta-real.
Computer programming and use, too, takes on magical aspects as it becomes more complex and obtuse. Entertaining a command at a line is not-coincidentally called invoking it.
And, subconsciously at least, all of these things are probably due to subconscious tendencies. Traditional magic is often about communicating intent, authoritatively and without possibility of misunderstanding due to whimiscal caprice, to invisible spirits. The law is about communicating intent from legislators to the governed, but some people know the secret formulas, known as loopholes, that let them evade that intent, or at least claim honest misunderstanding. And computers are pretty notorious for getting your commands to them wrong unless you are precise.
posted by JHarris at 12:28 PM on February 15, 2016 [32 favorites]
Jason Patrick, one of the eleven occupiers now in jail, told me that he could not care less what happened to the lands at the Malheur, or what the history of the place was. “It says in Article 1, Section 8, Clause 17, that the federal government has no right to own any of these lands. That’s it. If we don’t abide by the Constitution, which limits what the federal government can do, then we have no rule of law, we have no country.”
He presumably doesn't know that a good chunk of that land was purchased at market rates in the past 50 years by the federal government using Duck Stamp money, which is essentially a donation by the public for the express purpose of buying and preserving waterfowl habitat. And that it was voluntarily sold by private landowners. There couldn't be a clearer indication of the will of the people for the feds to own this land. Idiot.
This whole occupation looks more and more like a failure of educating citizens in the basics of civics and library research. I'm going to blame homeschooling because I dislike it anyway but presumably some of these men went to real schools too.
posted by fshgrl at 12:41 PM on February 15, 2016 [11 favorites]
He presumably doesn't know that a good chunk of that land was purchased at market rates in the past 50 years by the federal government using Duck Stamp money, which is essentially a donation by the public for the express purpose of buying and preserving waterfowl habitat. And that it was voluntarily sold by private landowners. There couldn't be a clearer indication of the will of the people for the feds to own this land. Idiot.
This whole occupation looks more and more like a failure of educating citizens in the basics of civics and library research. I'm going to blame homeschooling because I dislike it anyway but presumably some of these men went to real schools too.
posted by fshgrl at 12:41 PM on February 15, 2016 [11 favorites]
but did they graduate
posted by rhizome at 1:06 PM on February 15, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by rhizome at 1:06 PM on February 15, 2016 [2 favorites]
This whole occupation looks more and more like a failure of educating citizens in the basics of civics and library research.
This is not 1916, when a high school education still represented the height of educational aspiration for many and information about the outside world was largely passed around through word-of-mouth and newspapers. We live in an era with compulsory education through high school and ever-increasing numbers of people having at least some post-secondary education. We also can access a vast amount of information, essentially (though not quite) for free, at the click of a mouse. At this point, I'm starting to despair less of education and more of the human mind. The complexities of our political and economic systems seem to have outstripped the capacity of a good portion of our population to understand on even a basic level. (I'm not sure they haven't outstripped the capacity of just about all of us to understand thoroughly in anything like their totality.) It makes me fear for the future of democracy.
posted by praemunire at 1:08 PM on February 15, 2016 [6 favorites]
This is not 1916, when a high school education still represented the height of educational aspiration for many and information about the outside world was largely passed around through word-of-mouth and newspapers. We live in an era with compulsory education through high school and ever-increasing numbers of people having at least some post-secondary education. We also can access a vast amount of information, essentially (though not quite) for free, at the click of a mouse. At this point, I'm starting to despair less of education and more of the human mind. The complexities of our political and economic systems seem to have outstripped the capacity of a good portion of our population to understand on even a basic level. (I'm not sure they haven't outstripped the capacity of just about all of us to understand thoroughly in anything like their totality.) It makes me fear for the future of democracy.
posted by praemunire at 1:08 PM on February 15, 2016 [6 favorites]
Please, someone, anyone, analyse this for me/us!
Wow, I couldn't even get through reading that passage. It literally made my head spin.
posted by saulgoodman at 1:14 PM on February 15, 2016 [1 favorite]
Wow, I couldn't even get through reading that passage. It literally made my head spin.
posted by saulgoodman at 1:14 PM on February 15, 2016 [1 favorite]
There is a magical aspect to law
flagged for awesomeness.
posted by Theta States at 1:19 PM on February 15, 2016
flagged for awesomeness.
posted by Theta States at 1:19 PM on February 15, 2016
There is a magical aspect to law, and in a real sense the crazies are wrong only by matter of degree and basis.
Only in the Arthur C Clarke sense, ie "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic". If you lack a certain level of training, law is gobbledegook. I have that training, so law makes perfect sense to me. But anyone with basic critical thinking skills can see how it works, even if they don't understand the technicalities. For example, I don't know any computer languages, but I have a basic understanding of how computers work.
Systems aren't magic, and you don't have to understand the system to recognise that. The moon law people are delusional. That's all.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 3:25 PM on February 15, 2016 [4 favorites]
Only in the Arthur C Clarke sense, ie "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic". If you lack a certain level of training, law is gobbledegook. I have that training, so law makes perfect sense to me. But anyone with basic critical thinking skills can see how it works, even if they don't understand the technicalities. For example, I don't know any computer languages, but I have a basic understanding of how computers work.
Systems aren't magic, and you don't have to understand the system to recognise that. The moon law people are delusional. That's all.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 3:25 PM on February 15, 2016 [4 favorites]
Systems aren't magic, and you don't have to understand the system to recognise that. The moon law people are delusional. That's all.
The word is “cargo cult”
posted by Going To Maine at 3:29 PM on February 15, 2016 [8 favorites]
The word is “cargo cult”
posted by Going To Maine at 3:29 PM on February 15, 2016 [8 favorites]
But the Arthur C. Clarke sense matters. As full understanding of the basis, principles and extent passes further from common understanding, it looks more and more like magic. The moon law people are delusional, but who among us really doesn't, themselves, have minor misunderstandings about how the law works? I have discussions with friends all the time about aspects of what one should or shouldn't behave, and none of us really has strong insight into who's right. It's commonly brought up in threads on intellectual property that people just don't know how it works, and rely basically on folk knowledge to get by as it grows to become a bigger part of their lives.
And conversely, perhaps inevitably, the signs and aspects of the real law are becoming hard for some laypeople to distinguish from crazy law. And yet, as is often stated, "ignorance of the law is no excuse," so they have to fill the gap with something.
posted by JHarris at 3:55 PM on February 15, 2016 [5 favorites]
And conversely, perhaps inevitably, the signs and aspects of the real law are becoming hard for some laypeople to distinguish from crazy law. And yet, as is often stated, "ignorance of the law is no excuse," so they have to fill the gap with something.
posted by JHarris at 3:55 PM on February 15, 2016 [5 favorites]
Please, someone, anyone, analyse this for me/us!
I'm not a US lawyer, but I'll take a crack. Annotations in bold.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 3:56 PM on February 15, 2016 [22 favorites]
I'm not a US lawyer, but I'll take a crack. Annotations in bold.
"I wanted to know why the courts would not uphold the plain words of the law. Then, recently, I found out.Phew. My head hurts.
[Spoiler: No, he didn't]
What first dawned on me, is that American Citizen's have no standing in court. [unsupported and incorrect] Therefore any time an American Citizen went to court and claimed not to be liable for income tax, because the constitution says direct taxes have to be apportioned, they were ruled against. [because they were wrong] It IS a frivolous argument, because only a U.S. citizen has standing in today's courts [not true], and since you WERE in court making a claim, the presumption was made that it was a U.S. citizen making the claim (a correct presumption), and since the U.S. citizen does not have inalienable rights secured by the constitution [but they do] , it was a frivolous argument and against public policy [no, it wasn't]. Only sovereign American's [not a thing] can claim inalienable rights, [not true] secured by the constitution, and sovereign's will not be found in court. U.S. citizens can only claim privileges and immunities secured by the statutes, [yes, dear, that's what laws are for] so anytime you enter the court's jurisdiction, your are correctly presumed to be a U.S. citizen [What? No] , there on a statutory issue.
An Oklahoma Supreme Court justice stated it in a nutshell when he described the first level state courts in Oklahoma as "statutory non-constitutional" courts [citation needed]. The same is true in all states and in the federal court system [nope]. When you file a federal case you must submit a cover sheet showing the nature of the suit [well, this at least is true, in that you would have to submit pleadings]. Nowhere on the sheet is there a space for "inalienable rights" [why would it?]. The only section that is close is labelled "civil rights" [those are inalienable].
The courts today are private corporate courts [not a thing]run by the BAR (British Accreditation Regency) Association [not a thing - 'bar' is not an acronym, and the word has its roots in the long table used in courtrooms]. Think about this a minute. Attorneys are considered by statute and by court decisions to be "officers of the court". Their first duty is to the court, not to you! [actually, their first duty is to support the US and relevant state constitution, according to US admission oaths] Judges, Prosecutors and private practice attorneys are all attorneys and therefore are all officers of the court [actually true]. Since all these officers are dealing in the same commodity, statutes, [statutes are not a commodity] they would be statute "merchants" [no they wouldn't], as "merchants" is defined by the Uniform Commercial Code at (UCC) 2-104(1) [this is about the sale of private property and is completely irrelevant]. All the statutes are written by attorneys [Drafting? Sure. But legislators need not be attorneys or legally trained, although many are]. Most business legal decisions are made by attorneys [this person has obviously never been inside a business of any sort]. Prosecutions are made by attorneys. Defenses are made by attorneys. Judgments are made by attorneys. Officers of the court are in fact just government agents. [Er, no. Lawyers employed by the government could, I suppose, be 'government agents', but that would be because they are employed by the government] These agents are also U.S. citizens [you don't have to be a US citizen to practice law in the US] and they main job is to collect revenue to pay the federal debt. [No, that's actually the job of the IRS. Perhaps you've heard of them?] Therefore the whole court system and all attorneys have just modified the legal system into a business entity, designed to run as many people through as fast as they can, and collect the most revenue. [Anyone who thinks the court system in any jurisdiction runs 'fast' is in need of psychiatric assistance] And what is the one product of this business? Statutes. There are over 3 million law and statute BOOKS, and over 60 million statutes! Do you know them ALL? Remember, ignorance of the law is no excuse.
Again, all definitions quoted in this chapter are from Black's Law Dictionary 6th Edition, unless otherwise noted.
Up until 1933, we operated under Public Law. After 1933 we operated under Public Policy. What is the difference? [Law is the implementation of policy, but I suspect this guy is going in a different direction]
Public law. That branch or department of law which is concerned with the state in its political or sovereign capacity, including constitutional and administrative law, and with the definition, regulation, and enforcement of rights where the state is regarded as the subject of the right or object of the duty, . . . That portion of law which is concerned with political conditions; that is to say, with the powers, rights, duties, capacities, and incapacities which are peculiar to political superiors, supreme and subordinate.
Before 1933 we had public law, based on rights, constitutions, statutes, etc., and the state was the subject of the rights and the object of the duty to protect those rights. If you went to court, you went as a sovereign [no, you didn't] with inalienable rights, and the courts upheld them.
After 1933, when everybody's status changed, we then went under public policy." [What is this 'status change'? Somehow it seems to be related to the US going off the gold standard in 1933, but whatevs]
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 3:56 PM on February 15, 2016 [22 favorites]
BTW, the Southern Poverty Law Center has a moon law dictionary, which is quite helpful to understanding the cray cray.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 4:00 PM on February 15, 2016 [14 favorites]
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 4:00 PM on February 15, 2016 [14 favorites]
[What is this 'status change'? Somehow it seems to be related to the US going off the gold standard in 1933, but whatevs]
Exactly. Other branches of moonlaw peg the date at 1913 (creation of Federal Reserve) or 1936 (Social Security Act).
posted by zakur at 4:01 PM on February 15, 2016
Exactly. Other branches of moonlaw peg the date at 1913 (creation of Federal Reserve) or 1936 (Social Security Act).
posted by zakur at 4:01 PM on February 15, 2016
His thoughts were red thoughts: "Systems aren't magic, and you don't have to understand the system to recognise that. The moon law people are delusional. That's all."
You're right, it's not magic, but I think we're just having an analogy/metaphor breakdown. The vast majority of the moon law people don't think law is actually magic. I've only seen one instance of someone actually treating moon law like magic, using a reading of the Constitution as a protective talisman. The rest of the time, they're treating moon law like law, but their misunderstanding of the law is so goddamn ludicrous that we ridicule them as believing the law is magical.
It's kinda like an inverse of the Arthur C. Clarke quote: "Any sufficiently ridiculous misunderstanding of technology is indistinguishable from belief in magic". Just like complex law isn't really magic, ridiculous misunderstanding of law isn't really belief in magic.
posted by Bugbread at 4:37 PM on February 15, 2016
You're right, it's not magic, but I think we're just having an analogy/metaphor breakdown. The vast majority of the moon law people don't think law is actually magic. I've only seen one instance of someone actually treating moon law like magic, using a reading of the Constitution as a protective talisman. The rest of the time, they're treating moon law like law, but their misunderstanding of the law is so goddamn ludicrous that we ridicule them as believing the law is magical.
It's kinda like an inverse of the Arthur C. Clarke quote: "Any sufficiently ridiculous misunderstanding of technology is indistinguishable from belief in magic". Just like complex law isn't really magic, ridiculous misunderstanding of law isn't really belief in magic.
posted by Bugbread at 4:37 PM on February 15, 2016
Phew. My head hurts.
Thank you for that, seriously. That was a public service you just performed there at great risk to your own sanity. Trying to follow that kind of crazy logic makes you have to think in crazy logic, too; I had to keep skimming and otherwise diverting my attentions from the words just to keep from hurting my brain on them.
posted by saulgoodman at 4:57 PM on February 15, 2016 [4 favorites]
Thank you for that, seriously. That was a public service you just performed there at great risk to your own sanity. Trying to follow that kind of crazy logic makes you have to think in crazy logic, too; I had to keep skimming and otherwise diverting my attentions from the words just to keep from hurting my brain on them.
posted by saulgoodman at 4:57 PM on February 15, 2016 [4 favorites]
I'm not saying that to make light of disordered thinking, either. Once you've been there and come back yourself, you're in no particular hurry to go back.
posted by saulgoodman at 5:04 PM on February 15, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by saulgoodman at 5:04 PM on February 15, 2016 [1 favorite]
Only in the Arthur C Clarke sense, ie "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic". If you lack a certain level of training, law is gobbledegook. I have that training, so law makes perfect sense to me. But anyone with basic critical thinking skills can see how it works, even if they don't understand the technicalities.
If you back up a couple of levels, you can see that it's extremely odd that we can make marks on paper that can substantively affect the rights of human beings. By signing a contract--making squiggles on a page!--I can conjure into existence a whole panoply of enforceable rights and responsibilities, give a particular court power to give me orders, even put myself beyond the power of the court system to help me. In that sense, yes, law is magic. This is true even though legal systems have been trending away from purely technical approaches to pleading and the like for centuries.
posted by praemunire at 5:05 PM on February 15, 2016 [3 favorites]
If you back up a couple of levels, you can see that it's extremely odd that we can make marks on paper that can substantively affect the rights of human beings. By signing a contract--making squiggles on a page!--I can conjure into existence a whole panoply of enforceable rights and responsibilities, give a particular court power to give me orders, even put myself beyond the power of the court system to help me. In that sense, yes, law is magic. This is true even though legal systems have been trending away from purely technical approaches to pleading and the like for centuries.
posted by praemunire at 5:05 PM on February 15, 2016 [3 favorites]
none of us really has strong insight into who's right.
And there's part of the problem. How do you come to an agreement without resorting to some higher authority like a book, a constitution, or a brochure about a constitution? And as soon as you've done that, you've invested some power in that authority. Now that authority has the power to answer questions. (Does it have the power to answer all questions?)
Now you're in kind of a pickle, because the next sovereign citizen you meet is just going to say, "Well, my authority is better than yours. See this gold fringe? That's all it takes."
posted by sneebler at 5:23 PM on February 15, 2016
And there's part of the problem. How do you come to an agreement without resorting to some higher authority like a book, a constitution, or a brochure about a constitution? And as soon as you've done that, you've invested some power in that authority. Now that authority has the power to answer questions. (Does it have the power to answer all questions?)
Now you're in kind of a pickle, because the next sovereign citizen you meet is just going to say, "Well, my authority is better than yours. See this gold fringe? That's all it takes."
posted by sneebler at 5:23 PM on February 15, 2016
Here is a real life anecdote on how moonlaw folks think re: magic language, from my experience as a reference librarian for a public library (the go-to researchers for pro se litigants). One particular gentleman couldn't understand how he was not winning his cases, because (to him) his knowledge was complete and logic airtight. He theorized that he was losing cases because the filings of the other side were just really well-written, and all he needed to do was write the way lawyers write. So he started just taking filings from other cases, copying them and changing a few words and details, and then filing them in his own cases. The thing is most of the cases he was "borrowing" from were not in any way related to his own cases, e.g. filing a motion from a criminal case in his own civil case. He was even submitting re-drafted court orders and rulings -- again, from cases completed unrelated to his own -- as his own motions. He really thought that the way to win cases was in the magic language, not in the underlying law.
Postscript: The gentleman was eventually declared a vexatious litigator in the state and prohibited from instituting legal proceedings in the court of claims or in a court of common pleas, municipal court, or county court without first obtaining the leave of the Common Pleas Court that issued the vexatious litigator order.
posted by zakur at 5:33 PM on February 15, 2016 [11 favorites]
Postscript: The gentleman was eventually declared a vexatious litigator in the state and prohibited from instituting legal proceedings in the court of claims or in a court of common pleas, municipal court, or county court without first obtaining the leave of the Common Pleas Court that issued the vexatious litigator order.
posted by zakur at 5:33 PM on February 15, 2016 [11 favorites]
But the Arthur C. Clarke sense matters. As full understanding of the basis, principles and extent passes further from common understanding, it looks more and more like magic. The moon law people are delusional, but who among us really doesn't, themselves, have minor misunderstandings about how the law works? I have discussions with friends all the time about aspects of what one should or shouldn't behave, and none of us really has strong insight into who's right. It's commonly brought up in threads on intellectual property that people just don't know how it works, and rely basically on folk knowledge to get by as it grows to become a bigger part of their lives.
I have a pet theory that at least some of the Moon Law phenomenon comes down to the vagaries of our precedential legal system, but more than that, to its raw inaccessibility to a lay person. Consider that to really understand any one area of law, you have to have more than a passing familiarity with not only the basic workings of dual sovereignty between the states and federal government, but also the relevant statutes, both state and federal, and a sometimes enormous body of case law interpreting and modifying the basic statutory framework. To really understand current legal developments, you have to have a complete understanding of all of the above, plus be actively following up to the day opinions from around the country. That's a lot to ask of most people who aren't lawyers, and even of those who are.
I'm an attorney, but I'm only professionally competent in a small subset of administrative law inapplicable to 98% of legal issues. Assuming I practiced in the private sector, I'd never take on a case outside my small area without hours, probably days, of unbilled legal research, or co-counsel who knew what the hell they were doing. And to get myself up to speed in another area would take access to expensive, paywalled databases, and/or a couple hundred dollars in legal treatises or overviews. Even our public court documents are paywalled behind PACER, or a state equivalent. Simply put, the law is hard, and keeping up with it is expensive. It's no wonder that uninformed, even insane, theories grow up around what the law says when most people don't even have the access to read it, much less the unintelligent/uneducated ones who don't have the basic ability to.
posted by T.D. Strange at 5:49 PM on February 15, 2016 [10 favorites]
I have a pet theory that at least some of the Moon Law phenomenon comes down to the vagaries of our precedential legal system, but more than that, to its raw inaccessibility to a lay person. Consider that to really understand any one area of law, you have to have more than a passing familiarity with not only the basic workings of dual sovereignty between the states and federal government, but also the relevant statutes, both state and federal, and a sometimes enormous body of case law interpreting and modifying the basic statutory framework. To really understand current legal developments, you have to have a complete understanding of all of the above, plus be actively following up to the day opinions from around the country. That's a lot to ask of most people who aren't lawyers, and even of those who are.
I'm an attorney, but I'm only professionally competent in a small subset of administrative law inapplicable to 98% of legal issues. Assuming I practiced in the private sector, I'd never take on a case outside my small area without hours, probably days, of unbilled legal research, or co-counsel who knew what the hell they were doing. And to get myself up to speed in another area would take access to expensive, paywalled databases, and/or a couple hundred dollars in legal treatises or overviews. Even our public court documents are paywalled behind PACER, or a state equivalent. Simply put, the law is hard, and keeping up with it is expensive. It's no wonder that uninformed, even insane, theories grow up around what the law says when most people don't even have the access to read it, much less the unintelligent/uneducated ones who don't have the basic ability to.
posted by T.D. Strange at 5:49 PM on February 15, 2016 [10 favorites]
I'm a little late to this party because I've been travelling. So far, most of the reaction seems to have been of the "see? we told you they were crazy, and we were right!" variety. That's undeniably true, but isn't there a bit of a buried lede in there?
posted by kevinbelt at 6:24 PM on February 15, 2016
... almost entirely a Mormon-led insurrection... some version of the State of Deseret will almost certainly flourish...At its most charitable, that's an assertion that Mr. Herring doesn't really exert much effort backing up. Read less charitably, it kind of sounds to me like he's accusing a particularly visible religious minority of vaguely treasonous activities. I know we're going pretty strong on Hitler analogies recently thanks to the Trump campaign, but doesn't that remind you of a certain political party in 1930s Germany? If I'm off base, someone please correct me. But I'm a little reluctant to jump on board with this guy just because he came out and said something that a lot of people already knew.
posted by kevinbelt at 6:24 PM on February 15, 2016
Btw, for people listening live on the last thread, even TPM is giving Krisanne Hall joint credit for ending the standoff...which seems wildly inaccurate if you listened to her berate and badger a suicidal David Fry over the professional FBI negotiator.
I told you she would make this a career defining moment.
posted by T.D. Strange at 6:30 PM on February 15, 2016
I told you she would make this a career defining moment.
posted by T.D. Strange at 6:30 PM on February 15, 2016
The difference is Fiore actually did make some progress with them, she basically stopped a shootout from happening the night before they all walked out; while Krisanne antagonized David at every turn after he was the last left, to the point he blew up at her at least twice. He gave up despite her after he stopped listening to the livestream with her on the call and started listening to the FBI guy. Fiore is insane, but she really did talk them down from the ledge, as well as actually walk out with them like she promised, which she deserves to be recognized for. Hall nearly fucked it all up while Fiore was off the line for 5 mins getting debriefed by the FBI, her getting any of the credit is a joke.
posted by T.D. Strange at 6:42 PM on February 15, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by T.D. Strange at 6:42 PM on February 15, 2016 [5 favorites]
There's room in the tent for everyone.
The title of Fiore's press release: WHEN NO SHOT WAS HEARD AROUND THE WORLD.
She's implying that she single handedly believes she prevented either the next American revolutionary war or world war 3. Probably the former, given her flavour of crazy.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 6:47 PM on February 15, 2016
The title of Fiore's press release: WHEN NO SHOT WAS HEARD AROUND THE WORLD.
She's implying that she single handedly believes she prevented either the next American revolutionary war or world war 3. Probably the former, given her flavour of crazy.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 6:47 PM on February 15, 2016
This is an interesting article but I can't read it or this thread without noticing that there's no mention of patriarchy or white supremacy. Neither ideology provides a complete explanation for what's going on but we are talking about a bunch of middle aged white guys upset that they can't just show somewhere, run some cattle, put in some roads, and then be given land without regard to who was already there. We're talking about a group that thinks that they should be able to wave guns at people and have no consequences. And yes, when your rebellions' leader are members of a religion that embraces both white supremacy and patriarchy it's fair to point that out too.
If we start from where this admittedly interesting article begins, then we are ignoring the obvious. Why would we or Mr. Herring do that? I know, using concepts of patriarchy or white supremacy is common enough to be a cliche but shouldn't we use Occam's Razor?
posted by rdr at 6:54 PM on February 15, 2016 [3 favorites]
If we start from where this admittedly interesting article begins, then we are ignoring the obvious. Why would we or Mr. Herring do that? I know, using concepts of patriarchy or white supremacy is common enough to be a cliche but shouldn't we use Occam's Razor?
posted by rdr at 6:54 PM on February 15, 2016 [3 favorites]
Btw, for people listening live on the last thread, even TPM is giving Krisanne Hall joint credit for ending the standoff...which seems wildly inaccurate if you listened to her berate and badger a suicidal David Fry over the professional FBI negotiator.
I listened to that stream. She's an idiot jackass and if he'd done something incredibly stupid I'd be first in line to point fingers at her. Everybody concerned is so lucky that he listened to the feds who talked him down.
posted by Pope Guilty at 6:55 PM on February 15, 2016 [1 favorite]
I listened to that stream. She's an idiot jackass and if he'd done something incredibly stupid I'd be first in line to point fingers at her. Everybody concerned is so lucky that he listened to the feds who talked him down.
posted by Pope Guilty at 6:55 PM on February 15, 2016 [1 favorite]
But not this one. We're playing on Herring's ground when we pretend to be puzzled by the occupier's lack of coherent ideology.
posted by rdr at 7:02 PM on February 15, 2016
posted by rdr at 7:02 PM on February 15, 2016
rdr: "If we start from where this admittedly interesting article begins, then we are ignoring the obvious."
We also didn't talk about how sunlight provided the occupiers with higher visibility during the daytime, or how evolution provided them with the ability to speak and communicate ideas to others, or how the Internet and cellphone technology allowed them to spread their word to others, or a countless number of other really obvious things. If you think that everyone in the other threads, who did talk about white supremacy and patriarchy, just suddenly forgot or started pretending that white supremacy and patriarchy weren't involved upon coming to this thread, well, I don't know what to tell you.
posted by Bugbread at 8:23 PM on February 15, 2016 [7 favorites]
We also didn't talk about how sunlight provided the occupiers with higher visibility during the daytime, or how evolution provided them with the ability to speak and communicate ideas to others, or how the Internet and cellphone technology allowed them to spread their word to others, or a countless number of other really obvious things. If you think that everyone in the other threads, who did talk about white supremacy and patriarchy, just suddenly forgot or started pretending that white supremacy and patriarchy weren't involved upon coming to this thread, well, I don't know what to tell you.
posted by Bugbread at 8:23 PM on February 15, 2016 [7 favorites]
Re: the Hitler/Mormon comments above...
Except these folks, many of whom have Morman names and come from known communities of polygamist non-official Mormon sects, were actually taking up arms and behaving in treasonous activities. I'm referring mostly to the Bundy clan. They attracted a lot of non-Morman patriot types, Christians, and Fry-types as well.
We're Jews in 30s Germany acting in armed, insurrectionist ways?
posted by Windopaene at 8:36 PM on February 15, 2016
Except these folks, many of whom have Morman names and come from known communities of polygamist non-official Mormon sects, were actually taking up arms and behaving in treasonous activities. I'm referring mostly to the Bundy clan. They attracted a lot of non-Morman patriot types, Christians, and Fry-types as well.
We're Jews in 30s Germany acting in armed, insurrectionist ways?
posted by Windopaene at 8:36 PM on February 15, 2016
"Were Jews in 30s Germany acting in armed, insurrectionist ways?"
I don't think it's unreasonable to suggest that, of the entire German Jewish population, a small handful may have been violent. That's simple probability. 0.00001% of any subgroup is probably going to be violent.
It seems like a big leap to me to judge an entire religion of millions of people because a handful or two of them happen to be nut jobs (in ways that it isn't entirely clear are related to their religion, it should be noted). When the San Bernardino thing happened, the people who blamed it on "Islam" were widely denounced, and rightfully.
posted by kevinbelt at 4:39 AM on February 16, 2016 [1 favorite]
I don't think it's unreasonable to suggest that, of the entire German Jewish population, a small handful may have been violent. That's simple probability. 0.00001% of any subgroup is probably going to be violent.
It seems like a big leap to me to judge an entire religion of millions of people because a handful or two of them happen to be nut jobs (in ways that it isn't entirely clear are related to their religion, it should be noted). When the San Bernardino thing happened, the people who blamed it on "Islam" were widely denounced, and rightfully.
posted by kevinbelt at 4:39 AM on February 16, 2016 [1 favorite]
I don't see the judging of an entire religion. I do however see it necessary to have some discussion about how religion played into it because the occupiers themselves brought their religious beliefs into it. The leaders brought it into. Bundy himself, stated on several occasions that they did this because God told them too and that God was displeased at what happened to the Hammonds.
posted by Jalliah at 6:05 AM on February 16, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by Jalliah at 6:05 AM on February 16, 2016 [2 favorites]
"they did this because God told them to"
So did the 9/11 hijackers. So did the Paris attackers. How is this different? Every religion has nut jobs.
posted by kevinbelt at 6:35 AM on February 16, 2016 [1 favorite]
So did the 9/11 hijackers. So did the Paris attackers. How is this different? Every religion has nut jobs.
posted by kevinbelt at 6:35 AM on February 16, 2016 [1 favorite]
Er, well, yes, and we do talk about religion in those cases as well. If you're arguing that this is of the same ilk, then you're agreeing with Jalliah, not disagreeing.
posted by Bugbread at 6:39 AM on February 16, 2016
posted by Bugbread at 6:39 AM on February 16, 2016
We talk about religion, but people who say "this is evidence of a vast Muslim conspiracy to take over America" are generally considered unstable.
posted by kevinbelt at 6:56 AM on February 16, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by kevinbelt at 6:56 AM on February 16, 2016 [1 favorite]
I was sort of shocked though to see in the article how much frigging land the LDS owns. Don't like that. Don't really like anybody owning that much land.
posted by Trochanter at 6:59 AM on February 16, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Trochanter at 6:59 AM on February 16, 2016 [1 favorite]
This is an interesting article but I can't read it or this thread without noticing that there's no mention of patriarchy or white supremacy.
Possibly because it's both obvious and reductionist. The currently still-active previous thread is at 2724 comments and counting, and simply citing "the patriarchy" or "white supremacy" doesn't explain why this isn't happening in everyone's back yard (yet). There's some work to be done about why this happened at this specific place, at this specific time, by these specific people, and Herring, for all of his previously-discussed biases and shortcomings, does a decent enough job at filling in some of the blanks, although not nearly all of them.
posted by Halloween Jack at 7:08 AM on February 16, 2016 [4 favorites]
Possibly because it's both obvious and reductionist. The currently still-active previous thread is at 2724 comments and counting, and simply citing "the patriarchy" or "white supremacy" doesn't explain why this isn't happening in everyone's back yard (yet). There's some work to be done about why this happened at this specific place, at this specific time, by these specific people, and Herring, for all of his previously-discussed biases and shortcomings, does a decent enough job at filling in some of the blanks, although not nearly all of them.
posted by Halloween Jack at 7:08 AM on February 16, 2016 [4 favorites]
I was sort of shocked though to see in the article how much frigging land the LDS owns. Don't like that. Don't really like anybody owning that much land.
Ted Turner would like a word with you.
posted by Atreides at 7:43 AM on February 16, 2016 [1 favorite]
Ted Turner would like a word with you.
posted by Atreides at 7:43 AM on February 16, 2016 [1 favorite]
Yeah, all those names bugged me.
posted by Trochanter at 7:57 AM on February 16, 2016
posted by Trochanter at 7:57 AM on February 16, 2016
I actually found that to be a really strange article. It didn't really do much to explain anything that wasn't already explained by "these folks are pretty nuts." Herring goes out of his way to basically say that whatever context exists for land resentment in the West, none of it is applicable in this case because the people involved have no understanding of either historical or current sociopolitical issues.
Speaking of which, does anyone have a recommendation for a good book on the history that Herring touches on?
posted by OmieWise at 9:15 AM on February 16, 2016 [1 favorite]
Speaking of which, does anyone have a recommendation for a good book on the history that Herring touches on?
posted by OmieWise at 9:15 AM on February 16, 2016 [1 favorite]
Try the constitution, pal. (taps breast pocket)
posted by Trochanter at 9:19 AM on February 16, 2016 [9 favorites]
posted by Trochanter at 9:19 AM on February 16, 2016 [9 favorites]
Try the constitution, pal. (taps breast pocket)
Which version?
posted by OmieWise at 9:39 AM on February 16, 2016
Which version?
posted by OmieWise at 9:39 AM on February 16, 2016
Which version?
If the King James Constitution was good enough for the Apostle Paul, it’s good enough for me.
posted by nicepersonality at 9:50 AM on February 16, 2016 [23 favorites]
If the King James Constitution was good enough for the Apostle Paul, it’s good enough for me.
posted by nicepersonality at 9:50 AM on February 16, 2016 [23 favorites]
I especially like that one because all the quotations from Jesus were printed in red ink.
posted by Atom Eyes at 10:15 AM on February 16, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by Atom Eyes at 10:15 AM on February 16, 2016 [3 favorites]
I especially like that one because all the quotations from Jesus were printed in red ink.
Plus the comic sans makes it look like he's not so hard on the money lenders.
posted by Trochanter at 10:29 AM on February 16, 2016 [4 favorites]
Plus the comic sans makes it look like he's not so hard on the money lenders.
posted by Trochanter at 10:29 AM on February 16, 2016 [4 favorites]
iffthen: I have lots of thoughts about the article, but I felt it was more important to jump on this point. If a large-enough subset of the "occupiers" had any actual education about how government works, I suspect this whole stupid incident would never have happened.
More than just how government works, but also some basic ecology for an understanding of habitats and what goes into managing these "wild, open lands" that the government is saving for the fish and fowl. After reading the man of twists and turns' link (Travis Longcore, I Stand with Linda Sue Beck: The Attack on Science at Malheur National Wildlife Refuge), I mourn the lack of even a passing appreciation for what it takes to maintain this area. I'd hope ranchers would better appreciate the land, but then I'm the kind of hippie that thinks cattle shouldn't be let to roam in as many places as they do, because they're really not a good fit for those habitats.
posted by filthy light thief at 11:19 AM on February 16, 2016 [8 favorites]
More than just how government works, but also some basic ecology for an understanding of habitats and what goes into managing these "wild, open lands" that the government is saving for the fish and fowl. After reading the man of twists and turns' link (Travis Longcore, I Stand with Linda Sue Beck: The Attack on Science at Malheur National Wildlife Refuge), I mourn the lack of even a passing appreciation for what it takes to maintain this area. I'd hope ranchers would better appreciate the land, but then I'm the kind of hippie that thinks cattle shouldn't be let to roam in as many places as they do, because they're really not a good fit for those habitats.
posted by filthy light thief at 11:19 AM on February 16, 2016 [8 favorites]
I wish it had been publicized WHILE this was happening that much of the Malheur land was purchased with Duck Stamps from the Department of Agriculture and is widely supported by both the National Wildlife Federation and Ducks Unlimited.
I hate that stories get over simplified. The general public is still going to hear that there was an altercation between ranchers and the federal government. Yeah, they may not have liked the armed radicals part but the anti-government attitude persists. This isn't about the overreach of big government. This is about land use for the common good. I don't know any hunting groups, but I'd like to think they'd let their membership know what the loss of public lands means to them.
posted by readery at 11:42 AM on February 16, 2016 [5 favorites]
I hate that stories get over simplified. The general public is still going to hear that there was an altercation between ranchers and the federal government. Yeah, they may not have liked the armed radicals part but the anti-government attitude persists. This isn't about the overreach of big government. This is about land use for the common good. I don't know any hunting groups, but I'd like to think they'd let their membership know what the loss of public lands means to them.
posted by readery at 11:42 AM on February 16, 2016 [5 favorites]
I mean, the other thing is that I think the Wackadoodle version of fundamentalist LDS practised by at least Cliven Bundy is quite distant from mainstream LDS. There are comparatively mainstream LDS orgs which are seeking to undermine or attack the things that make America great - e.g the NOM. However, I think relatively few would want to create Deseret by force.
posted by running order squabble fest at 12:59 PM on February 16, 2016
posted by running order squabble fest at 12:59 PM on February 16, 2016
The government's argument for keeping Cliven in pretrial detention.
*Spoiler alert*
tl;dr: It basically comes down to "this is all the bad shit he's done PUBLICLY, this is how fucking hard it was to catch the son of a bitch without getting anyone killed, letting him back would be certifiably insane".
posted by Talez at 1:34 PM on February 16, 2016 [9 favorites]
*Spoiler alert*
tl;dr: It basically comes down to "this is all the bad shit he's done PUBLICLY, this is how fucking hard it was to catch the son of a bitch without getting anyone killed, letting him back would be certifiably insane".
posted by Talez at 1:34 PM on February 16, 2016 [9 favorites]
That pretrial detention brief (or whatever) is really good. Whoever wrote it was having a good time. At one point they call Bundy's cattle "mean, wild and ornery" (without proper punctuation, but still, a good line.)
posted by OmieWise at 1:54 PM on February 16, 2016
posted by OmieWise at 1:54 PM on February 16, 2016
The government's argument for keeping Cliven in pretrial detention.
Looks like it worked. Cliven Bundy is going to be detained pending trial.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 2:36 PM on February 16, 2016 [4 favorites]
Looks like it worked. Cliven Bundy is going to be detained pending trial.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 2:36 PM on February 16, 2016 [4 favorites]
The government still hasn't gotten back into Gold Butte, the federal lands next to the Bundy Ranch. A write up on this area was recently done for the St. George's newspaper.
posted by humanfont at 3:11 PM on February 16, 2016
posted by humanfont at 3:11 PM on February 16, 2016
I don't know any hunting groups, but I'd like to think they'd let their membership know what the loss of public lands means to them.
Oh, man, do they!
There is an internet fight for the soul of the hunting community going on right now. Showing support for the Feds on many a website (by these groups and by their supporters) leads to a huge, frantic outburst of paranoia calling them all (to paraphrase) soft, citified Easterners who don't know the first thing about the West, its sense of rugged individualism, ranching, the "atrocities" committed by the Feds upon rural America (yes, atrocities is a common word here), the conspiracy between the Clintons and the Feds to buy up all the land so we can default on it and the Chinese can then take it over for Uranium mining.
I spend a good twenty minutes to an hour trying to make sure that pro-wilderness, pro-Fed-owned-land ideas get SOME light on their website comment sections.
Most hunting organizations are on the right side of this one. Their right-wing members (those that haven't fled) are pissed and vocal.
posted by Seamus at 3:27 PM on February 16, 2016
Oh, man, do they!
There is an internet fight for the soul of the hunting community going on right now. Showing support for the Feds on many a website (by these groups and by their supporters) leads to a huge, frantic outburst of paranoia calling them all (to paraphrase) soft, citified Easterners who don't know the first thing about the West, its sense of rugged individualism, ranching, the "atrocities" committed by the Feds upon rural America (yes, atrocities is a common word here), the conspiracy between the Clintons and the Feds to buy up all the land so we can default on it and the Chinese can then take it over for Uranium mining.
I spend a good twenty minutes to an hour trying to make sure that pro-wilderness, pro-Fed-owned-land ideas get SOME light on their website comment sections.
Most hunting organizations are on the right side of this one. Their right-wing members (those that haven't fled) are pissed and vocal.
posted by Seamus at 3:27 PM on February 16, 2016
Also worth reading a report on the damage to the Gold Butte area by Friends of Gold Butte.
posted by humanfont at 3:34 PM on February 16, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by humanfont at 3:34 PM on February 16, 2016 [2 favorites]
There is also a wetland bird sanctuary at Moapa. I photographed in the Pahranagat National Wildlife Refuge 93 miles north of Las Vegas, and I was contacted about also photographing at Moapa. There is a reservation at Moapa.
The traditionalist Native Americans get little respect from politicians of the Utah persuasion. If they want to convert and convert their entire cultural orientation, then the state plays some ball. Utah's governor fired the Native American liason to the state for insubordination. I was surprised that the representative from the Native American nations was considered a subordinate.
posted by Oyéah at 4:18 PM on February 16, 2016
The traditionalist Native Americans get little respect from politicians of the Utah persuasion. If they want to convert and convert their entire cultural orientation, then the state plays some ball. Utah's governor fired the Native American liason to the state for insubordination. I was surprised that the representative from the Native American nations was considered a subordinate.
posted by Oyéah at 4:18 PM on February 16, 2016
That memorandum in support of pretrial detention has an interesting description of Bundy's cattle operation, starting on page 4:
While Bundy claims he is a cattle rancher, his ranching operation – to the extent it can be called that – is unconventional if not bizarre. Rather than manage and control his cattle, he lets them run wild on the public lands with little, if any, human interaction until such time when he traps them and hauls them off to be sold or slaughtered for his own consumption. He does not vaccinate or treat his cattle for disease; does not employ cowboys to control and herd them; does not manage or control breeding; has no knowledge of where all the cattle are located at any given time; rarely brands them before he captures them; and has to bait them into traps in order to gather them.posted by ryanrs at 4:41 PM on February 16, 2016 [10 favorites]
The government's argument for keeping Cliven in pretrial detention.
Looks like it worked. Cliven Bundy is going to be detained pending trial.
Ammo's name is all over the government's motion here, as well as Ryan Bundy and Ryan Payne. Also, the government hilariously cites Cliven's "Notice" to the Harney Co. sheriff. They're all going to get charged in both conspiracies here shortly. I didn't see Santelli's name in there still, his is going to be the one to watch.
posted by T.D. Strange at 5:06 PM on February 16, 2016 [1 favorite]
Looks like it worked. Cliven Bundy is going to be detained pending trial.
Ammo's name is all over the government's motion here, as well as Ryan Bundy and Ryan Payne. Also, the government hilariously cites Cliven's "Notice" to the Harney Co. sheriff. They're all going to get charged in both conspiracies here shortly. I didn't see Santelli's name in there still, his is going to be the one to watch.
posted by T.D. Strange at 5:06 PM on February 16, 2016 [1 favorite]
Under the traditional code of the west a hot brand is the only legally recognized mark of true ownership for cattle. Unbranded cattle are Mavericks which any cowboy may claim.
posted by humanfont at 5:12 PM on February 16, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by humanfont at 5:12 PM on February 16, 2016 [1 favorite]
ryanrs: "has to bait them into traps in order to gather them."
He's a...wild cow hunter?
posted by Bugbread at 5:24 PM on February 16, 2016 [4 favorites]
He's a...wild cow hunter?
posted by Bugbread at 5:24 PM on February 16, 2016 [4 favorites]
More like feral cow hunter, I guess.
I hear that's also a thing in Hawaii.
posted by ryanrs at 5:30 PM on February 16, 2016
I hear that's also a thing in Hawaii.
posted by ryanrs at 5:30 PM on February 16, 2016
I didn't see Santelli's name in there still, his is going to be the one to watch.
All that has to be done to destroy Santilli is for the US Attorney to say, offhand and on camera, "Oh, yeah, Pete's broadcasts have been very helpful to us. We're very grateful for his assistance."
The conspiracy nuts would chase him to the ends of the earth.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 6:44 PM on February 16, 2016 [6 favorites]
All that has to be done to destroy Santilli is for the US Attorney to say, offhand and on camera, "Oh, yeah, Pete's broadcasts have been very helpful to us. We're very grateful for his assistance."
The conspiracy nuts would chase him to the ends of the earth.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 6:44 PM on February 16, 2016 [6 favorites]
"Earned every bit of his money." Meaning YouTube ad money, of course.
posted by ctmf at 7:24 PM on February 16, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by ctmf at 7:24 PM on February 16, 2016 [1 favorite]
“Don’t you think he looks tired?”
posted by nicepersonality at 7:32 PM on February 16, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by nicepersonality at 7:32 PM on February 16, 2016 [4 favorites]
All that has to be done to destroy Santilli is for the US Attorney to say, offhand and on camera, "Oh, yeah, Pete's broadcasts have been very helpful to us. We're very grateful for his assistance."
One thing that will be interesting to see is if militias keep on "documenting" as heavily as they have for propaganda reasons. If some idiot figures out they're streaming probable cause who knows what will happen to videographers within the movement.
posted by Talez at 7:38 PM on February 16, 2016 [1 favorite]
One thing that will be interesting to see is if militias keep on "documenting" as heavily as they have for propaganda reasons. If some idiot figures out they're streaming probable cause who knows what will happen to videographers within the movement.
posted by Talez at 7:38 PM on February 16, 2016 [1 favorite]
Primer on federal conspiracy law for armchair legal analysts in the crowd [pdf]
posted by T.D. Strange at 8:40 PM on February 16, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by T.D. Strange at 8:40 PM on February 16, 2016 [2 favorites]
One time, the Oakland DA charged me with felony conspiracy to commit a traffic infraction.
My defense was basically my lawyer going "c'mon guys, you can't be serious, wtf?" But the DA was indeed serious and we had to go to court and go "c'mon, seriously?" in front of a judge, who dismissed it and yelled at the DA for wasting the court's time.
My co-conspirators made up some BICYCLE CONSPIRACY stickers to celebrate our victory.
posted by ryanrs at 9:43 PM on February 16, 2016 [10 favorites]
My defense was basically my lawyer going "c'mon guys, you can't be serious, wtf?" But the DA was indeed serious and we had to go to court and go "c'mon, seriously?" in front of a judge, who dismissed it and yelled at the DA for wasting the court's time.
My co-conspirators made up some BICYCLE CONSPIRACY stickers to celebrate our victory.
posted by ryanrs at 9:43 PM on February 16, 2016 [10 favorites]
One time, the Oakland DA charged me with felony conspiracy to commit a traffic infraction.
How does that even work? Were you a Critical Mass organizer or something and the DA had someone shit in his cereal?
posted by Talez at 2:34 AM on February 17, 2016 [2 favorites]
How does that even work? Were you a Critical Mass organizer or something and the DA had someone shit in his cereal?
posted by Talez at 2:34 AM on February 17, 2016 [2 favorites]
Yes, I was probably seen as a Critical Mass organizer, or perhaps just a general bike activist / troublemaker. But it was not a Critical Mass ride, just seven of us making noise about better bike access. We didn't even stop cars or block traffic. And it's not like the Bay Bridge morning commute moves that fast anyway.
More info about the bicycle conspiracy here.
posted by ryanrs at 3:39 AM on February 17, 2016 [3 favorites]
More info about the bicycle conspiracy here.
posted by ryanrs at 3:39 AM on February 17, 2016 [3 favorites]
Now, if you told them that you were a cowboy, and that was your steel horse that you ride...
posted by Artw at 8:55 AM on February 17, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by Artw at 8:55 AM on February 17, 2016 [2 favorites]
Here's an interesting map of "Federal Land" by Bill Rankin from 2000 that I ran across while looking at something else.
posted by achrise at 12:41 PM on February 17, 2016
posted by achrise at 12:41 PM on February 17, 2016
The refuge occupiers literally shit all over everything.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 2:03 PM on February 17, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 2:03 PM on February 17, 2016 [1 favorite]
His Thoughts etc- That's how they treated the law. It's no surprise that they also treat the actual physical world similarly.
posted by Archelaus at 2:19 PM on February 17, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Archelaus at 2:19 PM on February 17, 2016 [1 favorite]
Apparently Shawna Cox went rogue and filed a criminal cross complaint on her own. It's a good dose of sovereign citizen crazy - it's got the IMF, a secret plan to increase the size of the refuge, Blackstone mercenaries, the devil, and a claim for damages in the amount of $666,666,666,666.66.
posted by bluecore at 2:31 PM on February 17, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by bluecore at 2:31 PM on February 17, 2016 [4 favorites]
They did shit all over everything. Kinda interesting that the shit made it into at least one of the federal complaints.
What's a little more interesting is that one of the toilets regularly clogged. On one of his visits to the refuge, OPB's John Sepulvado volunteered to help them unclog it (using technology unknown to the occupiers; something called a plunger). The toilet was so disgusting, LaVoy walked away which left John without an escort. After fixing the toilet, John, still un-escorted, took a look at the computers and discovered the occupiers were digging through the systems.
Nice to see the spy-as-plumber cliche lives on, and working for the good guys for once.
posted by honestcoyote at 2:32 PM on February 17, 2016 [10 favorites]
What's a little more interesting is that one of the toilets regularly clogged. On one of his visits to the refuge, OPB's John Sepulvado volunteered to help them unclog it (using technology unknown to the occupiers; something called a plunger). The toilet was so disgusting, LaVoy walked away which left John without an escort. After fixing the toilet, John, still un-escorted, took a look at the computers and discovered the occupiers were digging through the systems.
Nice to see the spy-as-plumber cliche lives on, and working for the good guys for once.
posted by honestcoyote at 2:32 PM on February 17, 2016 [10 favorites]
They did shit all over everything.
I was about to be like, "What, they couldn't dig a straddle trench?" but then read the article and realized that one of the complaints about them seems to be that they dug a straddle trench. So yes, technically it's feces out in the open, but it's basically the port-a-potty of the outdoors and encampments everywhere.
posted by corb at 2:36 PM on February 17, 2016
I was about to be like, "What, they couldn't dig a straddle trench?" but then read the article and realized that one of the complaints about them seems to be that they dug a straddle trench. So yes, technically it's feces out in the open, but it's basically the port-a-potty of the outdoors and encampments everywhere.
posted by corb at 2:36 PM on February 17, 2016
The problem wasn't the shit trench, it's that it was next to or (even worse) on historically-significant lands of the local indigenous people. And in that vein, here's to hoping they get shit on by the feds as much as they shit on everyone else.
posted by zombieflanders at 2:42 PM on February 17, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by zombieflanders at 2:42 PM on February 17, 2016 [3 favorites]
Also, I'm not so sure - because the article doesn't specify - what kind of trench it was. I suspect it's one of the things they were up to with the giant backhoe, which is not a "straddle trench." Also, the article says there were piles of feces around the campground.
They didn't know how to camp. They didn't know what they were doing in the outdoors. This was evident 100% of the time. Why stand up for them? They didn't camp the same way people do in the "outdoors and encampments everywhere." They were untrained idiots.
posted by Miko at 2:47 PM on February 17, 2016 [6 favorites]
They didn't know how to camp. They didn't know what they were doing in the outdoors. This was evident 100% of the time. Why stand up for them? They didn't camp the same way people do in the "outdoors and encampments everywhere." They were untrained idiots.
posted by Miko at 2:47 PM on February 17, 2016 [6 favorites]
That Cox "counter suite" (sic) is all kinds of moonlaw crazy.
posted by zakur at 2:49 PM on February 17, 2016 [4 favorites]
suffered damages from the works of the devil in excess of $666,666,666,666.66She should file for change-of-venue, then. I'm pretty sure Mephistopheles doesn't recognize the authority of admiralty courts either.
Shawna Cox and swears under the penalty of perjury the following is true and correct.Might as well add one more charge!
posted by zakur at 2:49 PM on February 17, 2016 [4 favorites]
Specific language: "two large trenches...At least one of those trenches contains human feces...Additionally, ...significant amounts of human feces in and around an outdoor camping area”.
posted by Miko at 2:49 PM on February 17, 2016
posted by Miko at 2:49 PM on February 17, 2016
Didn't Sean and Sandy run a camping store before? It seems weird that they'd have a whole store and yet have zero camping etiquette.
posted by mochapickle at 2:51 PM on February 17, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by mochapickle at 2:51 PM on February 17, 2016 [2 favorites]
(Although to be fair, I'm thinking of the last two weeks.)
posted by mochapickle at 2:54 PM on February 17, 2016
posted by mochapickle at 2:54 PM on February 17, 2016
Uh, Hurricane Outdoor Supply, LLC? When you look at the pictures, I don't think you'll be too impressed. It's like a cross between the halfhearted stores you find at old-timey mom-and-pop campgrounds where everything has a slight sheen of dust, and the tables at flea markets where a guy is selling a bunch of knockoff Leathermen and Codeman Lanterns that fell off a truck somewhere.
Seems like just an opportunistic kind of business to own if you live near a hunting/fishing/camping paradise. But It was so clear they had no backcountry knowhow, no kind, no how.
posted by Miko at 2:58 PM on February 17, 2016 [3 favorites]
Seems like just an opportunistic kind of business to own if you live near a hunting/fishing/camping paradise. But It was so clear they had no backcountry knowhow, no kind, no how.
posted by Miko at 2:58 PM on February 17, 2016 [3 favorites]
Also, I'm not so sure - because the article doesn't specify - what kind of trench it was. I suspect it's one of the things they were up to with the giant backhoe, which is not a "straddle trench." Also, the article says there were piles of feces around the campground.
Yeah, I know this sounds weird, and I know why they didn't, but I kind of wish there were pictures accompanying the article. Like, they say 'trench', but right, what exactly does that mean? My mind jumps to basic field sanitation from Army days, with, you know, dirt sprinkled on top of fresh deposits...but it's totally possible it's just a giant backhoed poopland. Same with the campsite - do they mean, like, catholes? Or do they mean people just shit on the ground and didn't even bother covering it?
I don't even know why this is the kind of crap my mind wonders about. I think maybe because it's easier to approach the stuff on the edges rather than the kind of sad mess of the whole thing.
posted by corb at 2:58 PM on February 17, 2016
Yeah, I know this sounds weird, and I know why they didn't, but I kind of wish there were pictures accompanying the article. Like, they say 'trench', but right, what exactly does that mean? My mind jumps to basic field sanitation from Army days, with, you know, dirt sprinkled on top of fresh deposits...but it's totally possible it's just a giant backhoed poopland. Same with the campsite - do they mean, like, catholes? Or do they mean people just shit on the ground and didn't even bother covering it?
I don't even know why this is the kind of crap my mind wonders about. I think maybe because it's easier to approach the stuff on the edges rather than the kind of sad mess of the whole thing.
posted by corb at 2:58 PM on February 17, 2016
I was about to be like, "What, they couldn't dig a straddle trench?" but then read the article and realized that one of the complaints about them seems to be that they dug a straddle trench. So yes, technically it's feces out in the open, but it's basically the port-a-potty of the outdoors and encampments everywhere.
Except there were toilets and running water in the refuge. These people were just morons.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 3:00 PM on February 17, 2016 [1 favorite]
Except there were toilets and running water in the refuge. These people were just morons.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 3:00 PM on February 17, 2016 [1 favorite]
His thoughts - there's no way those toilets and water were rated for full-time occupation by the number of folks they had there. Hence the poor condition of the one that had to be unclogged (described a few posts up), etc.
posted by Archelaus at 3:01 PM on February 17, 2016
posted by Archelaus at 3:01 PM on February 17, 2016
I kind of wish there were pictures accompanying the article.
What I saw on all those video livestreams was enough to clarify it for me. And the campsite? I don't care if tehy were catholes or uncovered, what are they doing shitting close to a campsite? Anywhere near there? Keeping a distance is basic sanitation, not really how you dig.
posted by Miko at 3:01 PM on February 17, 2016 [1 favorite]
What I saw on all those video livestreams was enough to clarify it for me. And the campsite? I don't care if tehy were catholes or uncovered, what are they doing shitting close to a campsite? Anywhere near there? Keeping a distance is basic sanitation, not really how you dig.
posted by Miko at 3:01 PM on February 17, 2016 [1 favorite]
Well, the last gang didn't want to step inside their buildings because they had a mistaken idea that it would keep them safe legally. But maybe also because by that point, the toilets were out of commission?
It's all so. gross.
posted by Miko at 3:02 PM on February 17, 2016 [2 favorites]
It's all so. gross.
posted by Miko at 3:02 PM on February 17, 2016 [2 favorites]
It is, and it's so telling that their argument writ large basically boils down to: "we would take better care of th land than the BLM."
Oh. Oh, I see.
posted by OmieWise at 3:12 PM on February 17, 2016 [10 favorites]
Oh. Oh, I see.
posted by OmieWise at 3:12 PM on February 17, 2016 [10 favorites]
What I saw on all those video livestreams was enough to clarify it for me. And the campsite? I don't care if tehy were catholes or uncovered, what are they doing shitting close to a campsite? Anywhere near there? Keeping a distance is basic sanitation, not really how you dig.
I didn't see the livestreams, so you have the advantage on me there. It's kind of both on the field sanitation - your distance to mess, water, etc /plus/ how you cover it, because flies are a vector. However, this is all sheer weird nerdery on my part - I doubt anybody's going to be giving us details on this all, and really this is all coals to Newcastle. I'm sure they're going to jail for years regardless of whether or not they shit properly.
posted by corb at 3:13 PM on February 17, 2016
I didn't see the livestreams, so you have the advantage on me there. It's kind of both on the field sanitation - your distance to mess, water, etc /plus/ how you cover it, because flies are a vector. However, this is all sheer weird nerdery on my part - I doubt anybody's going to be giving us details on this all, and really this is all coals to Newcastle. I'm sure they're going to jail for years regardless of whether or not they shit properly.
posted by corb at 3:13 PM on February 17, 2016
I think it's time for a relevant musical interlude.
posted by ambulocetus at 3:26 PM on February 17, 2016
posted by ambulocetus at 3:26 PM on February 17, 2016
Shawna Cox has filed her own "counter criminal complaint". She wants 666 billion in damages. Talkin' Sovr'n!
posted by T.D. Strange at 3:41 PM on February 17, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by T.D. Strange at 3:41 PM on February 17, 2016 [2 favorites]
And Ammo wants to oversee the government's investigation of the crime scene
posted by T.D. Strange at 3:49 PM on February 17, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by T.D. Strange at 3:49 PM on February 17, 2016 [3 favorites]
And Ammo wants to oversee the government's investigation of the crime scene
Apparently his lawyers is positioning them to throw the final 4 under the bus. All that damage, you see, that wasn't us, that was those last four losers!
This despite all the video footage of Ammon cutting fences and so forth.
posted by suelac at 3:57 PM on February 17, 2016 [2 favorites]
Apparently his lawyers is positioning them to throw the final 4 under the bus. All that damage, you see, that wasn't us, that was those last four losers!
This despite all the video footage of Ammon cutting fences and so forth.
posted by suelac at 3:57 PM on February 17, 2016 [2 favorites]
there's no way those toilets and water were rated for full-time occupation by the number of folks they had there.
Sure they are. They routinely have a dozen or so employees full time and sometimes a couple hundred tourist visitors a day. The plumbing is fine. These people were just pigs who didn't care about basic hygiene.
posted by JackFlash at 4:03 PM on February 17, 2016 [6 favorites]
Sure they are. They routinely have a dozen or so employees full time and sometimes a couple hundred tourist visitors a day. The plumbing is fine. These people were just pigs who didn't care about basic hygiene.
posted by JackFlash at 4:03 PM on February 17, 2016 [6 favorites]
These people were just pigs who didn't care about basic hygiene.
That's a terrible thing to say.
I've known some splendid pigs.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 4:11 PM on February 17, 2016 [3 favorites]
That's a terrible thing to say.
I've known some splendid pigs.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 4:11 PM on February 17, 2016 [3 favorites]
These people were just pigs who didn't care about proper treatment of public property.
posted by suelac at 4:21 PM on February 17, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by suelac at 4:21 PM on February 17, 2016 [3 favorites]
I wonder if a judge could throw out most of Shawna Cox's complaint but grant the $666,666,666,66 in damages against the devil and tell her she's on her own to collect.
posted by Death and Gravity at 4:22 PM on February 17, 2016 [9 favorites]
posted by Death and Gravity at 4:22 PM on February 17, 2016 [9 favorites]
I'm really curious how screwy your worldview has to be to feel that Satan is your personal enemy, is conspiring with the government against you, and yet, would feel compelled to be held accountable to the rule of moon-law.
posted by Archelaus at 4:29 PM on February 17, 2016 [7 favorites]
posted by Archelaus at 4:29 PM on February 17, 2016 [7 favorites]
I wonder if a judge could throw out most of Shawna Cox's complaint but grant the $666,666,666,66 in damages against the devil and tell her she's on her own to collect.
She's not claiming damages against the devil himself. Her claim is:
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 4:35 PM on February 17, 2016 [1 favorite]
She's not claiming damages against the devil himself. Her claim is:
I am asking for criminal and civil penalties for the perpetrators that subjected me and my witnesses to the crimes I have identified herein. I Claim I and the others involved in these 13 actions have suffered damages from the works of the devil in excess of $666,666,666,666.66 Six 14 hundred sixty six billion, six hundred sixty six million, six hundred sixty six thousand, six hundred 15 sixty six dollars and sixty six cents.So, she thinks that the government and law enforcement et al are the tools of the devil, and she demands that they pay damages for their actions, which are by extension the work of the devil.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 4:35 PM on February 17, 2016 [1 favorite]
Right, except that presuming it all is the work of the literal, actual devil, why would they start playing by her rules -now?-
posted by Archelaus at 4:37 PM on February 17, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Archelaus at 4:37 PM on February 17, 2016 [1 favorite]
Sure. But she also claims that the Federal and all state bar association are secret spy ninjas or something ("Foreign Agents operating subversively within United States, including but not limited to State and Federal Bar Associations, IMF agents and Blackstone mercenaries").
So she demands "In accordance with the rules of professional conduct, the code of judicial ethics and the laws that prevent judges from sitting on cases that they have a direct interest in, I am objecting to each and every judge who is a state or federal Bar Association member from presiding over my case".
But if they are all corrupt agents of an eeeevil empire, why would they? And how can she demand that they comply with the rules of a court system she says is illegitimate and has no effect? She be cray, there's no point in asking why.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 4:43 PM on February 17, 2016 [2 favorites]
So she demands "In accordance with the rules of professional conduct, the code of judicial ethics and the laws that prevent judges from sitting on cases that they have a direct interest in, I am objecting to each and every judge who is a state or federal Bar Association member from presiding over my case".
But if they are all corrupt agents of an eeeevil empire, why would they? And how can she demand that they comply with the rules of a court system she says is illegitimate and has no effect? She be cray, there's no point in asking why.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 4:43 PM on February 17, 2016 [2 favorites]
Blackstone mercenaries
Also this - does she mean 'Blackwater', or in moon law did William Blackstone establish a secret mercenary force that that been supporting the clandestine actions of the British Empire in suborning the various US bar associations?
I hope it's the latter. A whole crew of mercenaries, silent, deadly, but still wearing robes and horsehair wigs, with tactical gavels (silenced, of course).
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 4:46 PM on February 17, 2016 [8 favorites]
Also this - does she mean 'Blackwater', or in moon law did William Blackstone establish a secret mercenary force that that been supporting the clandestine actions of the British Empire in suborning the various US bar associations?
I hope it's the latter. A whole crew of mercenaries, silent, deadly, but still wearing robes and horsehair wigs, with tactical gavels (silenced, of course).
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 4:46 PM on February 17, 2016 [8 favorites]
...presuming it all is the work of the literal, actual devil, why would they start playing by her rules -now?-
The Devil is Lawful Evil.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 4:49 PM on February 17, 2016 [4 favorites]
The Devil is Lawful Evil.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 4:49 PM on February 17, 2016 [4 favorites]
Not sure of relevance, but it appears that there's a "Blackstone Company" that's a large bank. Some previous claims by Bundyites also claimed to have run-ins with "Blackwater or Blackstone" mercenaries.
posted by Archelaus at 4:52 PM on February 17, 2016
posted by Archelaus at 4:52 PM on February 17, 2016
suffered damages from the works of the devil in excess of $666,666,666,666.66
Is this is a hard pitch for a guest appearance on Lucifer? Only, that feels like cruel and unusual punishment...
posted by running order squabble fest at 4:53 PM on February 17, 2016
Is this is a hard pitch for a guest appearance on Lucifer? Only, that feels like cruel and unusual punishment...
posted by running order squabble fest at 4:53 PM on February 17, 2016
Does the devil indemnify? I've got a whole John Grisham meets Anne Rice thing stewing here.
posted by rhizome at 5:10 PM on February 17, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by rhizome at 5:10 PM on February 17, 2016 [2 favorites]
The Devil Ain't Lazy! Nosiree.
Actually like this cover better.
posted by OmieWise at 5:26 PM on February 17, 2016 [2 favorites]
Actually like this cover better.
posted by OmieWise at 5:26 PM on February 17, 2016 [2 favorites]
AND INTRODUCING
SATAN, THE FALLEN, LORD OF THE FLIES, CURSED BE HIS NAME
in PARAMOUNT'S
DEVIL INDEMNITY
From the moment they met, it was
COMING SPRING 2016
but the NSA will cover it all up and if this movie is never released it will probably be because we are dead
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 5:26 PM on February 17, 2016 [8 favorites]
The Blackstone Irregulars is the name of a mercenary company in Dragon Age.
Perhaps Shawna Cox is a gamer. And this whole thing was just about ethics in public land management.
posted by zakur at 5:28 PM on February 17, 2016 [7 favorites]
Perhaps Shawna Cox is a gamer. And this whole thing was just about ethics in public land management.
posted by zakur at 5:28 PM on February 17, 2016 [7 favorites]
Grand jury indictment issued against Cliven Bundy, Ryan and Ammon Bundy, Ryan Payne and Pete Santilli stemming from 2014 standoff in NV
posted by T.D. Strange at 5:42 PM on February 17, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by T.D. Strange at 5:42 PM on February 17, 2016 [2 favorites]
Perhaps Shawna Cox is a gamer.
And this all was a giant LARPing con?
posted by Miko at 6:16 PM on February 17, 2016
And this all was a giant LARPing con?
posted by Miko at 6:16 PM on February 17, 2016
On the devil tip, I'll throw in There's No Hiding Place and That Suits Me, just two of the many songs that note that the Devil wears, well, hypocrite shoes.
posted by Miko at 6:21 PM on February 17, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by Miko at 6:21 PM on February 17, 2016 [2 favorites]
The indictment against the 2014 co-conspirators includes $3 million in criminal forfietures, the feds are coming after the Bundy ranch itself.
posted by T.D. Strange at 6:32 PM on February 17, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by T.D. Strange at 6:32 PM on February 17, 2016 [2 favorites]
Turn it into a park. Love it.
posted by Trochanter at 6:38 PM on February 17, 2016 [7 favorites]
posted by Trochanter at 6:38 PM on February 17, 2016 [7 favorites]
I don't know what kind of devilish coincidence this is, but when I clicked on T. D. Strange's link, I saw an ad for Fry's Electronics.
posted by Miko at 6:39 PM on February 17, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by Miko at 6:39 PM on February 17, 2016 [2 favorites]
The indictment against the 2014 co-conspirators includes $3 million in criminal forfietures, the feds are coming after the Bundy ranch itself.
...and, hilariously, the weapons used in the event.
THE FED'RAL GUBMINT IS COMIN' FER THEIR GUNS! Like, actually, for real!
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 6:45 PM on February 17, 2016 [3 favorites]
...and, hilariously, the weapons used in the event.
THE FED'RAL GUBMINT IS COMIN' FER THEIR GUNS! Like, actually, for real!
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 6:45 PM on February 17, 2016 [3 favorites]
"Today marks a tremendous step toward ending more than 20 years of law breaking," said Nel Kornze, director of the U.S. Bureau of Land Management. "The nation's public lands belong to all Americans."
It really is strange to be in the position of rah-rahing the FBI, but I am impressed with the way they played the long game here, the way they managed the incident to ensure a minimum of public sympathy for the militant-criminals, and the way they leveraged this stupid incident to make a strong and enduring statement.
posted by Miko at 6:50 PM on February 17, 2016 [7 favorites]
It really is strange to be in the position of rah-rahing the FBI, but I am impressed with the way they played the long game here, the way they managed the incident to ensure a minimum of public sympathy for the militant-criminals, and the way they leveraged this stupid incident to make a strong and enduring statement.
posted by Miko at 6:50 PM on February 17, 2016 [7 favorites]
Pretty fitting if the ultimate result of this is the Bundy compound becoming federal land. Knock it down and build a Gold Butte visitor's center.
posted by T.D. Strange at 6:50 PM on February 17, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by T.D. Strange at 6:50 PM on February 17, 2016 [4 favorites]
I mean, it's all fun and games, but if the Feds actually confiscate their ranch and turn it into a nature preserve, they will be confirming the beliefs of everyone who has thought all along this would be the answer.
posted by corb at 6:53 PM on February 17, 2016
posted by corb at 6:53 PM on February 17, 2016
they will be confirming the beliefs of everyone who has thought all along this would be the answer.
And that would be....TERRIBLE
?
I think the great thing about this incident is that it proves how shallow, ill founded, cynical, selfish, and useless those beliefs are. If you thought all along that the answer was that the federal government holds title to public lands and offers certain usage rights in exchange for fees, but doesn't see fit to allow people to take advantage of those taxpayer-funded resources by ignoring or breaking the law, then then you thought right.
posted by Miko at 6:56 PM on February 17, 2016 [2 favorites]
And that would be....TERRIBLE
?
I think the great thing about this incident is that it proves how shallow, ill founded, cynical, selfish, and useless those beliefs are. If you thought all along that the answer was that the federal government holds title to public lands and offers certain usage rights in exchange for fees, but doesn't see fit to allow people to take advantage of those taxpayer-funded resources by ignoring or breaking the law, then then you thought right.
posted by Miko at 6:56 PM on February 17, 2016 [2 favorites]
I mean, it's all fun and games, but if the Feds actually confiscate their ranch and turn it into a nature preserve, they will be confirming the beliefs of everyone who has thought all along this would be the answer.
So what? They will believe that nonsense no matter what anyone does.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 6:59 PM on February 17, 2016 [4 favorites]
So what? They will believe that nonsense no matter what anyone does.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 6:59 PM on February 17, 2016 [4 favorites]
I mean, it's all fun and games, but if the Feds actually confiscate their ranch and turn it into a nature preserve, they will be confirming the beliefs of everyone who has thought all along this would be the answer.
Should've thought about that before reaching for the machine guns. Cliven owes America $1 million in back fees, plus $3 million more if (when) he's convicted on these charges. There's no legitimate argument against enforcing a criminal conviction against his only real asset, the ranch.
If you don't want to make the poor employees of the Bundy Victory Visitors Center a target, that's a legitimate concern. Burn it all to the ground and salt the earth instead.
posted by T.D. Strange at 6:59 PM on February 17, 2016 [4 favorites]
Should've thought about that before reaching for the machine guns. Cliven owes America $1 million in back fees, plus $3 million more if (when) he's convicted on these charges. There's no legitimate argument against enforcing a criminal conviction against his only real asset, the ranch.
If you don't want to make the poor employees of the Bundy Victory Visitors Center a target, that's a legitimate concern. Burn it all to the ground and salt the earth instead.
posted by T.D. Strange at 6:59 PM on February 17, 2016 [4 favorites]
Civil forfeiture as used in the US is generally bad law and this isn't one of the rare exceptions. The owner isn't insulated or immune to the laws being broken via organization or racketeering. Sure assess a fine and then if he can't pay it foreclose on the property to collect. But seizing the property because it was peripherally implicated in the crime is abusive here just as it is when they seize some guys house because he sold some pot on the property.
posted by Mitheral at 7:14 PM on February 17, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by Mitheral at 7:14 PM on February 17, 2016 [5 favorites]
Sure assess a fine and then if he can't pay it foreclose on the property to collect.
That's what they're doing, isn't it?
posted by Trochanter at 7:15 PM on February 17, 2016
That's what they're doing, isn't it?
posted by Trochanter at 7:15 PM on February 17, 2016
Doesn't she have a lawyer? No lawyer wrote that cross-complaint.
Aside from the crazy sovereign stuff, "Additional affirmative defenses I am reserving include:"
That's not at all how that works, right? Venue? You can't reserve that for later.
posted by ctmf at 7:21 PM on February 17, 2016
Aside from the crazy sovereign stuff, "Additional affirmative defenses I am reserving include:"
That's not at all how that works, right? Venue? You can't reserve that for later.
posted by ctmf at 7:21 PM on February 17, 2016
Sure assess a fine and then if he can't pay it foreclose on the property to collect.
That's what they're doing, isn't it?
They are going after the proceeds of crime, to wit the illegal grazing and the drawing of weapons on federal officers trying to end the illegal grazing, thereby enabling them to continue to the illegal grazing.
If the Bundy Ranch can be argued to be funded by the illegal activity, then it's up for grabs. All the cows too.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 7:22 PM on February 17, 2016
That's what they're doing, isn't it?
They are going after the proceeds of crime, to wit the illegal grazing and the drawing of weapons on federal officers trying to end the illegal grazing, thereby enabling them to continue to the illegal grazing.
If the Bundy Ranch can be argued to be funded by the illegal activity, then it's up for grabs. All the cows too.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 7:22 PM on February 17, 2016
How is this not a rare exception? The entire crux of the crime is centered around the illegal defense of the Bundy ranch, and the defense of the proceeds of illegal grazing from the ranch onto federal lands. It's not a case where the crime happened to take place on property owned by the accused, it's not "seiz[ing] some guys house because he sold some pot on the property", it's seizing a warehouse used solely as a industrial grow op.
posted by T.D. Strange at 7:24 PM on February 17, 2016
posted by T.D. Strange at 7:24 PM on February 17, 2016
And yes, it looks like they're only naming cash in the forfeiture. Maybe he has 3 mil sitting around to pay it, smart investing of illegal proceeds in the stock market maybe. But if not, by all means foreclose on the ranch to satisfy the judgment.
posted by T.D. Strange at 7:26 PM on February 17, 2016
posted by T.D. Strange at 7:26 PM on February 17, 2016
Doesn't she have a lawyer? No lawyer wrote that cross-complaint.
And by that I mean, could her actual court-appointed lawyer get any action taken against them if she went rogue and filed that on her own? She wouldn't really be pro se, or would she?
posted by ctmf at 7:30 PM on February 17, 2016
And by that I mean, could her actual court-appointed lawyer get any action taken against them if she went rogue and filed that on her own? She wouldn't really be pro se, or would she?
posted by ctmf at 7:30 PM on February 17, 2016
She wouldn't really be pro se, or would she?
She thinks literally all lawyers are evil agents of the villainous bar associations, which are some sort of foreign spy network(?). Why wouldn't she be self-represented?
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 7:34 PM on February 17, 2016 [2 favorites]
She thinks literally all lawyers are evil agents of the villainous bar associations, which are some sort of foreign spy network(?). Why wouldn't she be self-represented?
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 7:34 PM on February 17, 2016 [2 favorites]
could her actual court-appointed lawyer get any action taken against them
Probably not, at least not for the first time. Her lawyer didn't sign that, he's not going to support the crazy to the judge, he's not likely subject to any sanctions. Maybe if it kept happening and the judge got pissed off, but that seems unlikely. No link but I saw on twitter the judge told her to consult with her counsel, who I expect will tell her to never, ever do that again or she really will be pro se. They're just not going to read it, you can't even make a "counter complaint" against the government in a criminal case, that's insane. At most the judge would tell her to file a civil claim, but only if he really hated his clerks.
posted by T.D. Strange at 7:39 PM on February 17, 2016 [4 favorites]
Probably not, at least not for the first time. Her lawyer didn't sign that, he's not going to support the crazy to the judge, he's not likely subject to any sanctions. Maybe if it kept happening and the judge got pissed off, but that seems unlikely. No link but I saw on twitter the judge told her to consult with her counsel, who I expect will tell her to never, ever do that again or she really will be pro se. They're just not going to read it, you can't even make a "counter complaint" against the government in a criminal case, that's insane. At most the judge would tell her to file a civil claim, but only if he really hated his clerks.
posted by T.D. Strange at 7:39 PM on February 17, 2016 [4 favorites]
The the 3 million forfeiture in this case is criminal, not civil. They have to be convicted of the crime, then they can have their money taken away(unlike civil forfeiture where there doesn't even need need to be a charge, let alone a conviction).
posted by rockindata at 7:46 PM on February 17, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by rockindata at 7:46 PM on February 17, 2016 [1 favorite]
T.D. Strange: "It's not a case where the crime happened to take place on property owned by the accused, it's not "seiz[ing] some guys house because he sold some pot on the property", it's seizing a warehouse used solely as a industrial grow op."
I don't agree that that's a good thing.
T.D. Strange: "And yes, it looks like they're only naming cash in the forfeiture. Maybe he has 3 mil sitting around to pay it, smart investing of illegal proceeds in the stock market maybe. But if not, by all means foreclose on the ranch to satisfy the judgment."
This is where we're in agreement. I think it's good that he's going to lose the ranch. I'm happy about it. I'm just glad it's because "You owe us a shitload of money in fines. Since you can't pay, we're seizing the property as payment" and not "You committed a crime, you used the ranch, therefore in addition to penalties we'll take the ranch too."
posted by Bugbread at 8:00 PM on February 17, 2016 [2 favorites]
I don't agree that that's a good thing.
T.D. Strange: "And yes, it looks like they're only naming cash in the forfeiture. Maybe he has 3 mil sitting around to pay it, smart investing of illegal proceeds in the stock market maybe. But if not, by all means foreclose on the ranch to satisfy the judgment."
This is where we're in agreement. I think it's good that he's going to lose the ranch. I'm happy about it. I'm just glad it's because "You owe us a shitload of money in fines. Since you can't pay, we're seizing the property as payment" and not "You committed a crime, you used the ranch, therefore in addition to penalties we'll take the ranch too."
posted by Bugbread at 8:00 PM on February 17, 2016 [2 favorites]
Bundy's feral cows are all over lands (he doesn't even not pay,) grazing fees to use. They are in a bird refuge, and on Native American land. That is what I gathered. They are just all over the place. It sounds like he didn't have the help to run a real ranch. You have to wonder how he was making a living?
But maybe Cliven can read night-night stories to his boys, now they are all in the big bouse together. It's family time!
posted by Oyéah at 8:01 PM on February 17, 2016
But maybe Cliven can read night-night stories to his boys, now they are all in the big bouse together. It's family time!
posted by Oyéah at 8:01 PM on February 17, 2016
I wonder if they're going to clean up the prison hallways and cafeteria and outdoor grounds and then demand unfettered 24/7 access to them, since they made improvements to federal property.
posted by Bugbread at 8:05 PM on February 17, 2016
posted by Bugbread at 8:05 PM on February 17, 2016
What is the minimum sentence estimate for the new indictment? I assume its decades.
posted by humanfont at 8:12 PM on February 17, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by humanfont at 8:12 PM on February 17, 2016 [1 favorite]
They are in a county jail, it is the supreme jail, the real jail, run by a county sheriff. They must feel great, like they are in the right place.
I wonder if Travis Cox, one of the as yet unapprehended conspirators is a son of Shawna Cox (PhD Moonology?)
posted by Oyéah at 8:12 PM on February 17, 2016 [1 favorite]
I wonder if Travis Cox, one of the as yet unapprehended conspirators is a son of Shawna Cox (PhD Moonology?)
posted by Oyéah at 8:12 PM on February 17, 2016 [1 favorite]
What is the minimum sentence estimate for the new indictment? I assume its decades.
5-20 on the various charges, like 180 total, but unlikely to be imposed consecutively even if convicted on all charges. The firearms charge does have a 5 year minimum and must run consecutive to other convictions by statute. So yea, a lot. Definitely the rest of Cliven's life.
posted by T.D. Strange at 8:23 PM on February 17, 2016 [1 favorite]
5-20 on the various charges, like 180 total, but unlikely to be imposed consecutively even if convicted on all charges. The firearms charge does have a 5 year minimum and must run consecutive to other convictions by statute. So yea, a lot. Definitely the rest of Cliven's life.
posted by T.D. Strange at 8:23 PM on February 17, 2016 [1 favorite]
All the other people who helped occupy Malheur must be crapping themselves right now, wondering what evidence they left there, or if they were in the background of any of the videos posted up. I hope they go after them all.
posted by marienbad at 8:31 PM on February 17, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by marienbad at 8:31 PM on February 17, 2016 [4 favorites]
I wonder if they're going to clean up the prison hallways and cafeteria and outdoor grounds and then demand unfettered 24/7 access to them, since they made improvements to federal property.
If by 'clean up' you mean 'shit all over everything', then yes.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 8:32 PM on February 17, 2016 [1 favorite]
If by 'clean up' you mean 'shit all over everything', then yes.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 8:32 PM on February 17, 2016 [1 favorite]
Raw Story has profiles of all those facing charges.
posted by humanfont at 8:32 PM on February 17, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by humanfont at 8:32 PM on February 17, 2016 [1 favorite]
Kind of a weird ending to that Raw Story piece, the phone numbers for suicide hotlines?
posted by ctmf at 8:50 PM on February 17, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by ctmf at 8:50 PM on February 17, 2016 [1 favorite]
I'm curious about how many guns were left behind. A funny thought is that the guns should be put in the lost & found at the visitor center, and then arrest anyone who makes a claim.
I would imagine they'll actually be auctioned off. I'd almost want to buy one as my souvenir of this whole ridiculousness. Maybe buy a dildo too if there's any unburned ones left. For whatever reason, I have a strong interest in the long list of abandoned personal property which will probably show up in the FBI's final report.
posted by honestcoyote at 8:55 PM on February 17, 2016 [2 favorites]
I would imagine they'll actually be auctioned off. I'd almost want to buy one as my souvenir of this whole ridiculousness. Maybe buy a dildo too if there's any unburned ones left. For whatever reason, I have a strong interest in the long list of abandoned personal property which will probably show up in the FBI's final report.
posted by honestcoyote at 8:55 PM on February 17, 2016 [2 favorites]
Pretty fitting if the ultimate result of this is the Bundy compound becoming federal land.
Here's the Bundy ranch. It's small, only 160 acres but a prime location with water rights from the Virgin River. The Virgin River comes out of Zion Park and empties into Lake Mead behind Hoover Dam not far from the Bundy Ranch.
There are no cows on the ranch. It looks like it is mainly used to raise hay for the cows. All of their cows are on BLM land south of here. It's mostly mesquite desert that takes 100 or more acres to feed one cow. In these areas you see nothing but emaciated cows, pretty much in ones or twos scattered over miles because they are competing for the few blades of grass to eat. They have to travel miles every day just to get a drink of water. The worst are the cholla cactus hanging from their noses, tongues, heads and legs.
posted by JackFlash at 9:02 PM on February 17, 2016 [5 favorites]
Here's the Bundy ranch. It's small, only 160 acres but a prime location with water rights from the Virgin River. The Virgin River comes out of Zion Park and empties into Lake Mead behind Hoover Dam not far from the Bundy Ranch.
There are no cows on the ranch. It looks like it is mainly used to raise hay for the cows. All of their cows are on BLM land south of here. It's mostly mesquite desert that takes 100 or more acres to feed one cow. In these areas you see nothing but emaciated cows, pretty much in ones or twos scattered over miles because they are competing for the few blades of grass to eat. They have to travel miles every day just to get a drink of water. The worst are the cholla cactus hanging from their noses, tongues, heads and legs.
posted by JackFlash at 9:02 PM on February 17, 2016 [5 favorites]
I'm curious about how many guns were left behind.
Nobody leaves their guns behind without reason. I'm guessing that they were worried about going through the checkpoint and the guns are illegal in some way, stolen, etc.
posted by JackFlash at 9:06 PM on February 17, 2016
Nobody leaves their guns behind without reason. I'm guessing that they were worried about going through the checkpoint and the guns are illegal in some way, stolen, etc.
posted by JackFlash at 9:06 PM on February 17, 2016
Nah, I doubt the guns were stolen.
It's cheaper and easier to just a buy a gun from some guy advertising on Armslist or in the Thrifty Nickel.
They left the guns behind because they new it made them look like they had been involved in an armed occupation of federal land. They weren't thinking. They were reacting.
posted by Seamus at 9:11 PM on February 17, 2016 [3 favorites]
It's cheaper and easier to just a buy a gun from some guy advertising on Armslist or in the Thrifty Nickel.
They left the guns behind because they new it made them look like they had been involved in an armed occupation of federal land. They weren't thinking. They were reacting.
posted by Seamus at 9:11 PM on February 17, 2016 [3 favorites]
Weren't there a few people named early on who appeared to not be legal to possess a gun? But most of it was surely people dumping them in the hopes that unarmed they would be allowed through the checkpoint. (It is a downmarket version of the photo of the discarded boots from fleeing south Vietnamese soldiers that was posted the other day.)
posted by Dip Flash at 9:20 PM on February 17, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Dip Flash at 9:20 PM on February 17, 2016 [1 favorite]
JackFlash: "They have to travel miles every day just to get a drink of water"
Which is why the illegal irrigation pipe trench in the Gold Butte story linked earlier.
posted by Mitheral at 9:53 PM on February 17, 2016 [1 favorite]
Which is why the illegal irrigation pipe trench in the Gold Butte story linked earlier.
posted by Mitheral at 9:53 PM on February 17, 2016 [1 favorite]
Called it: They're going to throw the book at these guys.
posted by andoatnp at 10:07 PM on February 17, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by andoatnp at 10:07 PM on February 17, 2016 [1 favorite]
Black's Law Dictionary, or the Pocket Consitution (2016 Expurgated Version)?
posted by sebastienbailard at 2:29 AM on February 18, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by sebastienbailard at 2:29 AM on February 18, 2016 [1 favorite]
The Bundy house at the north end of the ranch is huge. It also has tennis court, pool, and detached multi-car garage.
posted by humanfont at 3:59 AM on February 18, 2016
posted by humanfont at 3:59 AM on February 18, 2016
ctmf: Kind of a weird ending to that Raw Story piece, the phone numbers for suicide hotlines?
They mentioned David Fry's talk of suicide near the end of the occupation. I guess it's standard practice to add a hotline number when it's discussed, maybe even appended by a bot when the keyword appears.
posted by bluecore at 5:42 AM on February 18, 2016 [3 favorites]
They mentioned David Fry's talk of suicide near the end of the occupation. I guess it's standard practice to add a hotline number when it's discussed, maybe even appended by a bot when the keyword appears.
posted by bluecore at 5:42 AM on February 18, 2016 [3 favorites]
That makes sense - suicidal people might be searching on the keyword.
posted by Miko at 6:18 AM on February 18, 2016
posted by Miko at 6:18 AM on February 18, 2016
Then Shawna Cox, I read today in the Salt Lake Trib, was on a protest ATV ride through the 33 mile Paria Wilderness area. I tell you this, if I had paid an outfit bucks to spot my car at Lee's Ferry near Marble Canyon on the Grand Canyon and assholes came through the Narrows of the Paria on ATVs while I was hiking it's 33 mile length, they would have been impoverished since the lawsuit. This lady imagines her ass to be golden. She is an even more special kind of crazy than I could have imagined.
posted by Oyéah at 11:52 AM on February 18, 2016
posted by Oyéah at 11:52 AM on February 18, 2016
How good government made fools of Cliven Bundy and his self-styled revolutionaries
posted by the man of twists and turns at 2:13 PM on February 18, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by the man of twists and turns at 2:13 PM on February 18, 2016 [1 favorite]
Santelli writes a letter. News2Share reports it has received a letter from Santelli in prison.
posted by humanfont at 6:29 PM on February 18, 2016
posted by humanfont at 6:29 PM on February 18, 2016
Butthurt. It's a way of life.
posted by Trochanter at 6:41 PM on February 18, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Trochanter at 6:41 PM on February 18, 2016 [1 favorite]
Aw. Santelli is sad and doesn't think he'll "do much to rally patriots" after prison.
Dude, you've got a good long while before that's gonna matter to your planning. Seriously.
posted by Archelaus at 6:43 PM on February 18, 2016
Dude, you've got a good long while before that's gonna matter to your planning. Seriously.
posted by Archelaus at 6:43 PM on February 18, 2016
Hey, Mumia and Peltier made a cottage industry out of it. You've got to have something to keep you sane in prison, and better that than joining up with the white supremacist gangs.
posted by corb at 6:59 PM on February 18, 2016
posted by corb at 6:59 PM on February 18, 2016
How much of his letter is bullshit, for those of you who have been keeping close tabs? Is the FBI actually getting him based on his Oathkeepers affiliation, or are there separate legitimate charges?
posted by corb at 7:01 PM on February 18, 2016
posted by corb at 7:01 PM on February 18, 2016
Santelli probably wrote the letter before the latest indictment.
posted by humanfont at 7:11 PM on February 18, 2016
posted by humanfont at 7:11 PM on February 18, 2016
are there separate legitimate charges?
It seems you have a lot of catching up to do.
posted by JackFlash at 7:33 PM on February 18, 2016 [13 favorites]
It seems you have a lot of catching up to do.
posted by JackFlash at 7:33 PM on February 18, 2016 [13 favorites]
IKR. The Grand Jury indictment is linked above. Santilli is charged on 16 counts, none of which is a mere "affilitation" with a patriot group.
posted by zakur at 7:37 PM on February 18, 2016
posted by zakur at 7:37 PM on February 18, 2016
corb: the line "As you can imagine, daily mail-call has become something ‘very important’ to look forward to" is probably true, the rest is bullshit.
posted by marienbad at 7:51 PM on February 18, 2016
posted by marienbad at 7:51 PM on February 18, 2016
Hey, Mumia and Peltier made a cottage industry out of it. You've got to have something to keep you sane in prison, and better that than joining up with the white supremacist gangs.
He's in jail because he joined up with a white supremacist gang.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 9:01 PM on February 18, 2016 [11 favorites]
He's in jail because he joined up with a white supremacist gang.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 9:01 PM on February 18, 2016 [11 favorites]
"I am extremely disappointed in the patriot community. Knowing what I know now, I’m not sure I would have invested so much energy or had so much faith that patriots would rise (peacefully) to the call."Ha ha. "If I'd known I'd wasn't going to get a civil war, I would've just stayed home." Yeah, I'll bet Pete wishes he had stood in bed.
posted by octobersurprise at 7:18 AM on February 19, 2016
Cliven Bundy is not even a competent rancher.
In 2014, at the time of his alleged crimes, more than 1,000 head strayed as far as 50 miles from his ranch and into the Lake Mead National Recreational Area, "getting stuck in mud, wandering onto golf courses, straying onto the freeway (causing accidents on occasion)," authorities said in documents.
He allows his cattle to "run wild on the public lands with little, if any, human interaction until such time he traps them and hauls them off to be sold or slaughtered for his own consumption," prosecutors said.
posted by Brian B. at 7:43 AM on February 19, 2016 [4 favorites]
In 2014, at the time of his alleged crimes, more than 1,000 head strayed as far as 50 miles from his ranch and into the Lake Mead National Recreational Area, "getting stuck in mud, wandering onto golf courses, straying onto the freeway (causing accidents on occasion)," authorities said in documents.
He allows his cattle to "run wild on the public lands with little, if any, human interaction until such time he traps them and hauls them off to be sold or slaughtered for his own consumption," prosecutors said.
posted by Brian B. at 7:43 AM on February 19, 2016 [4 favorites]
Santilli: "When I get out, I don’t think I’ll be doing very much in terms of tallying patriots because I’m not sure if Americans really want to do anything about saving our country."
If the informant theory is correct, this is Santilli laying the groundwork to explain a change of direction after he's freed.
posted by Miko at 8:43 AM on February 19, 2016
If the informant theory is correct, this is Santilli laying the groundwork to explain a change of direction after he's freed.
posted by Miko at 8:43 AM on February 19, 2016
DHS-FBI Joint Intelligence Bulletin outlines threats to officers, employees, and suggests ways to combat them
posted by zakur at 9:55 AM on February 19, 2016
posted by zakur at 9:55 AM on February 19, 2016
Grant County sheriff viewed as 'security leak' as state seeks investigation.
posted by Nelson at 9:40 AM on February 19 [+] [!]
From the Then There Were Four thread.
posted by Trochanter at 10:33 AM on February 19, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Nelson at 9:40 AM on February 19 [+] [!]
From the Then There Were Four thread.
posted by Trochanter at 10:33 AM on February 19, 2016 [1 favorite]
An article in today's Salt lake Tribune talks about ranchers meetings where the BLM and Forest Service were disinvited after Malheur. Lots of discord over loss of rangeland, and county mounties interfering with the feds.
posted by Oyéah at 10:39 AM on February 19, 2016
posted by Oyéah at 10:39 AM on February 19, 2016
Wow. From the article:
posted by zombieflanders at 10:39 AM on February 19, 2016 [4 favorites]
"Glenn Palmer is viewed as a security leak, not only by local law enforcement staff but by the Oregon State Police and FBI," [Valerie Luttrell] said.Kudos to the people willing to stand up to this crooked cop, and Luttrell for being willing to face potential retribution from both Palmer and the movement he aided and abetted.
Luttrell said that when Palmer advised he was heading to the roadblock with a passenger, dispatchers assumed he was taking a militiaman with him. Luttrell said dispatchers warned state troopers at the roadblock of that possibility. In fact, the passenger was Grant County District Attorney Jim Carpenter.
Only one of the six citizens who filed separate complaints against Palmer allowed the state to disclose their identity. Palmer was being provided copies of all the complaints, state officials said.
The citizen complaints echoed a common theme – that Palmer's association with militants put the community at risk.
"If our sheriff is supporting illegal actions or militants and inviting them into our community, how can we as citizens of Grant County feel safe?" one complainant asked.
"I am concerned that Mr. Palmer has abandoned all neutrality and is actively making Grant County a safe haven for government dissenters," wrote another.
posted by zombieflanders at 10:39 AM on February 19, 2016 [4 favorites]
If the informant theory is correct, this is Santilli laying the groundwork ...
I've read this in several places, but given Santilli's activities (which include threatening a Judge in the Kent Hovind case), I'm skeptical. I guess it's possible that he's merely deeply undercover (or content to play both sides) but more than once he's gone over the top in ways that would seem unnecessary for an informant.
If I were speculating on "who's a mole"—and why not, it's fun to do—my obvious candidate would be Mark McConnell. My "shocking dramatic twist" candidate would be Maureen Peltier, the ambiguously possibly medically-discharged/possibly not National Guard reservist who's appointed herself freelance PR agent to the militia/patriot movements. I mean, what better gig for a mole than opsec? (OTOH I may have just read too many Smiley novels.)
Speaking of SSG Moe (as she likes to call herself), she's asking everyone to keep those cards and letters coming! Pete in particular wants funny letters, so make with the jokes and help lift Pete's spirits!
posted by octobersurprise at 11:43 AM on February 19, 2016
I've read this in several places, but given Santilli's activities (which include threatening a Judge in the Kent Hovind case), I'm skeptical. I guess it's possible that he's merely deeply undercover (or content to play both sides) but more than once he's gone over the top in ways that would seem unnecessary for an informant.
If I were speculating on "who's a mole"—and why not, it's fun to do—my obvious candidate would be Mark McConnell. My "shocking dramatic twist" candidate would be Maureen Peltier, the ambiguously possibly medically-discharged/possibly not National Guard reservist who's appointed herself freelance PR agent to the militia/patriot movements. I mean, what better gig for a mole than opsec? (OTOH I may have just read too many Smiley novels.)
Speaking of SSG Moe (as she likes to call herself), she's asking everyone to keep those cards and letters coming! Pete in particular wants funny letters, so make with the jokes and help lift Pete's spirits!
posted by octobersurprise at 11:43 AM on February 19, 2016
octobersurprise: "more than once he's gone over the top in ways that would seem unnecessary for an informant."
I don't think the idea is that he's always been an informant, but that he's been turned fairly recently.
posted by Bugbread at 12:36 PM on February 19, 2016 [1 favorite]
I don't think the idea is that he's always been an informant, but that he's been turned fairly recently.
posted by Bugbread at 12:36 PM on February 19, 2016 [1 favorite]
Feds Issue Warning On Revenge Threats Re: Malheur
And Ammo's lawyer is touting Ted Cruz's support [facebook]
posted by T.D. Strange at 1:08 PM on February 19, 2016 [1 favorite]
And Ammo's lawyer is touting Ted Cruz's support [facebook]
posted by T.D. Strange at 1:08 PM on February 19, 2016 [1 favorite]
I guess it's possible that he's merely deeply undercover
That's more unlikely. You might want to pop back into the thread just previous to this for the informant discussion there.
posted by Miko at 1:08 PM on February 19, 2016 [1 favorite]
That's more unlikely. You might want to pop back into the thread just previous to this for the informant discussion there.
posted by Miko at 1:08 PM on February 19, 2016 [1 favorite]
I wouldn't bet on "SSG Moe" as a mole either, she's calling for people to harass federal judges now [facebook]. Like Santelli, that's pretty far for a mole.
posted by T.D. Strange at 1:12 PM on February 19, 2016
posted by T.D. Strange at 1:12 PM on February 19, 2016
I’m convinced that the Malheur occupation was part of a much larger, well-funded and politically connected movement to transfer public lands to private owners. I’m also convinced it is not over, and we must expect to see more violent attempts to seize public land in the future.
posted by T.D. Strange at 1:26 PM on February 19, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by T.D. Strange at 1:26 PM on February 19, 2016 [3 favorites]
That's more unlikely.
Probably. Other than as a semi-humorous conjecture, I confess I haven't a clue about who or who isn't a mole.
she's calling for people to harass federal judges now
posted by octobersurprise at 1:37 PM on February 19, 2016
Probably. Other than as a semi-humorous conjecture, I confess I haven't a clue about who or who isn't a mole.
she's calling for people to harass federal judges now
"I will be filing a complaint against both these so called judges. I will be citing each code that I "interpreted" they are in violation of."That's one of finest examples of the blind leading the blind I've ever seen. She needs help. I hear Anna Von Jingleheimer Schmidt is available.
posted by octobersurprise at 1:37 PM on February 19, 2016
Probably
Just there's a big difference between undercover and informant. You can be someone with a shitty history and become an informant. It's much more unlikely that he's an actual agent of some sort under deep cover.
posted by Miko at 1:49 PM on February 19, 2016 [1 favorite]
Just there's a big difference between undercover and informant. You can be someone with a shitty history and become an informant. It's much more unlikely that he's an actual agent of some sort under deep cover.
posted by Miko at 1:49 PM on February 19, 2016 [1 favorite]
Related: Ted Cruz Vows To Sell Off Or Give Away Nevada’s Public Lands
posted by zakur at 1:54 PM on February 19, 2016 [7 favorites]
In a controversial new TV ad aiming to sway conservative caucus-goers in Nevada but likely to backfire with mainstream voters, Presidential hopeful Ted Cruz (R-TX) vows to sell-off or give away the state’s national parks, national forests, national monuments, and other public lands.Ted Cruz, the Moon-law candidate
“If you trust me with your vote,” says Cruz in the ad, “I will fight day and night to return full control of Nevada’s lands to its rightful owners, its citizens.”
The Cruz ad, which is launching less than a week before the Republican caucuses in Nevada, echoes the views propagated by anti-government militant Cliven Bundy, who believes that Western states should seize control of all national public lands within their borders.
posted by zakur at 1:54 PM on February 19, 2016 [7 favorites]
I tend to avoid Facebook as a general annoyance but damn if it isn't interesting when it comes to these groups and the players in the Malheur debacle. Just, wow.
From above T.D. Strange's link 'And Ammo's lawyer is touting Ted Cruz's support [facebook]', in the comments Trump supporters chime in with how he's behind the Patriots* as well, supposedly meeting with Utah Rep. Ken Ivory (article describing him as a snake oil salesman which may be an insult to snakes), the founder of The American Lands Council.
*I keep getting angry about this continued appropriation of patriotism. I am a very patriotic person, as a first generation immigrant my parents and grandparents were very proud to be welcomed as Americans. They imbued us with the beauty of being Americans and the greatness of this country. When my parents retired and got a chance to travel all over they would continually rave about the beauty of America to the relatives back in Ireland. Anyway I get teared up at American images and singing the Star Spangled Banner at baseball games. We are patriots, but we also get creeped out by pledging allegiance and would never agree with our country right or wrong. We love our country, but want it to be the best it can be. We love our country because it welcomed us and continues to welcome newcomers. I hate these assholes for ruining patriotism.
posted by readery at 2:10 PM on February 19, 2016 [5 favorites]
From above T.D. Strange's link 'And Ammo's lawyer is touting Ted Cruz's support [facebook]', in the comments Trump supporters chime in with how he's behind the Patriots* as well, supposedly meeting with Utah Rep. Ken Ivory (article describing him as a snake oil salesman which may be an insult to snakes), the founder of The American Lands Council.
*I keep getting angry about this continued appropriation of patriotism. I am a very patriotic person, as a first generation immigrant my parents and grandparents were very proud to be welcomed as Americans. They imbued us with the beauty of being Americans and the greatness of this country. When my parents retired and got a chance to travel all over they would continually rave about the beauty of America to the relatives back in Ireland. Anyway I get teared up at American images and singing the Star Spangled Banner at baseball games. We are patriots, but we also get creeped out by pledging allegiance and would never agree with our country right or wrong. We love our country, but want it to be the best it can be. We love our country because it welcomed us and continues to welcome newcomers. I hate these assholes for ruining patriotism.
posted by readery at 2:10 PM on February 19, 2016 [5 favorites]
Sovereign is in the Utah legislature right now, with Rep. LaVar Christensen calling the state the Sovereign Marriage Authority, to make it where the state can selectively ignore Supreme Court rulings. He wants to re-ban gay marriage. Sovereign, that troubling word.
Ted Cruz, empty promises in Nevada, or How the West Was Won.
posted by Oyéah at 4:11 PM on February 19, 2016 [1 favorite]
Ted Cruz, empty promises in Nevada, or How the West Was Won.
posted by Oyéah at 4:11 PM on February 19, 2016 [1 favorite]
Sandy Anderson has been released pending trial. Her fellow final holdouts won't be getting hearings until March it seems.
posted by humanfont at 4:16 PM on February 19, 2016
posted by humanfont at 4:16 PM on February 19, 2016
I'd like to know why Eric Parker hasn't been arrested yet. He was the sniper dude at Bundy Ranch.
posted by tavella at 5:33 PM on February 19, 2016
posted by tavella at 5:33 PM on February 19, 2016
As for why Cox hasn't been arrested -- supposedly a bunch of the militia types ran back to the Bundy ranch and are hiding out there.
posted by tavella at 5:41 PM on February 19, 2016
posted by tavella at 5:41 PM on February 19, 2016
The FBI has not released anything more than a name with regard to Travis Cox. It is a common name. Until the FBI releases more details, not reason to jump into it.
posted by humanfont at 6:00 PM on February 19, 2016
posted by humanfont at 6:00 PM on February 19, 2016
The west is huge. It doesn't make sense to run back to the Bundy ranch. It means the FBI knows exactly where you are. Eventually the law will move on the ranch and in the meanwhile it will be hard to get away from the ranch. Plus you become a piece that Cliven can trade for a softer bed. Some people would probably still run there though.
posted by rdr at 6:15 PM on February 19, 2016
posted by rdr at 6:15 PM on February 19, 2016
I think we've seen the government is not at all eager for a violent confrontation, they're not going to move on the Bundy ranch. It's probably the best place to hide actually, by sticking together the Bundyites can pose enough of a danger that the FBI is not going to risk agents and the public firestorm to take them down. It's only when they wander away from the pack like Ammo did that they're vulnerable.
posted by T.D. Strange at 6:30 PM on February 19, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by T.D. Strange at 6:30 PM on February 19, 2016 [1 favorite]
This is supposedly Travis Cox, btw.
They're all such scary people.
posted by Trochanter at 6:49 PM on February 19, 2016
They're all such scary people.
posted by Trochanter at 6:49 PM on February 19, 2016
No contact, even voice, with her husband? That's actually kind of messed up. Not even supervised conversations? What is the purpose of that? It seems gratuitously mean to me.
posted by ctmf at 7:29 PM on February 19, 2016
posted by ctmf at 7:29 PM on February 19, 2016
Is the FBI actually getting him based on his Oathkeepers affiliation, or are there separate legitimate charges?
I think it is important to remember that while it is possible to disagree about the underlying issues of things like public land management, federal control, and so on, the occupiers directly and clearly (often on camera) violated a bunch of laws (including, apparently, digging in culturally sensitive areas without the necessary permissions). Public officials were threatened, public buildings and vehicles were damaged, and so on. Even if you think the militants were correct politically, they took foolish risks in terms of openly breaking laws and some of them are going to pay high prices for that.
If there turn out to be arrests for bogus stuff like being affiliated with legal militia groups, that would be a different story, but so far the arrests and charges have been for direct law breaking, not political opinions.
posted by Dip Flash at 9:18 PM on February 19, 2016 [5 favorites]
I think it is important to remember that while it is possible to disagree about the underlying issues of things like public land management, federal control, and so on, the occupiers directly and clearly (often on camera) violated a bunch of laws (including, apparently, digging in culturally sensitive areas without the necessary permissions). Public officials were threatened, public buildings and vehicles were damaged, and so on. Even if you think the militants were correct politically, they took foolish risks in terms of openly breaking laws and some of them are going to pay high prices for that.
If there turn out to be arrests for bogus stuff like being affiliated with legal militia groups, that would be a different story, but so far the arrests and charges have been for direct law breaking, not political opinions.
posted by Dip Flash at 9:18 PM on February 19, 2016 [5 favorites]
This is supposedly Travis Cox, btw.
They're all such scary people.
Or stupid looking, depending on your perspective.
posted by bongo_x at 10:05 PM on February 19, 2016
They're all such scary people.
Or stupid looking, depending on your perspective.
posted by bongo_x at 10:05 PM on February 19, 2016
Stupid with guns is really scary.
posted by Trochanter at 10:11 PM on February 19, 2016 [8 favorites]
posted by Trochanter at 10:11 PM on February 19, 2016 [8 favorites]
How much of his letter is bullshit, for those of you who have been keeping close tabs? Is the FBI actually getting him based on his Oathkeepers affiliation, or are there separate legitimate charges?
Here's a single snapshot, where he's interfering with a federal officer performing his duties: a BLM agent who was in the process of getting the cattle that would be used to pay for Cliven Bundy's unpaid pasturing fees.
(Note that the site with the transcript is a bit nutter/Koolaide.)
Secret audio recording from Bundy Ranch reveals BLM Special Agent Dan Love and Pete Santilli threatening each other with arrest over violations of U.S. Constitution
Sunday, April 13, 2014
by Mike Adams, the Health Ranger
Editor of NaturalNews.com (See all articles...)
Tags: secret audio recording, Bundy Ranch, BLM Dan Love
Secret audio recording
(NaturalNews) Natural News has obtained and is now releasing a secret audio recording of a conversation that took place Thursday, April 10th, between Daniel P. Love, Special Agent in Charge of Region 3 of the BLM and Guerilla Media Network radio host Pete Santilli, serving in the role as a communications liaison between the armed citizen protesters and the BLM.
In this recording, you can hear Daniel Love and Pete Santilli discussing life-and-death confrontations, during which Santilli says Daniel Love and the Sheriff of the county will be arrested if they do not uphold their oath to the United States Constitution.
...
His presenting oneself as a peaceful journalist is not consistent with his earlier actions as a spokesman for a group of armed antigovernment militants who menaced with firearms federal employees and law enforcement who carrying out their duties.
In Oregon he was arguably again acting as a Bundy mouthpiece and less arguably trying to summon more people to join the occupiers (huffpro). While he was trying to summon more 'unarmed' protesters (aclu), unarmed protesters cooperating with a core of armed protesters are just human shields, cover, and prospective martyrs, as at the Nevada Bundy ranch:
Former Arizona Sheriff Richard Mack, who was with the protesters, said that they were "strategizing to put all the women up at the front. If they are going to start shooting, it's going to be women that are going to be televised all across the world getting shot by these rogue federal officers".[9] (wikipedia)
See also:
And in the formal legal complaint against (Cliven Bundy) released Wednesday, FBI special agent Joel P. Willis recalled the day in 2014 when more than 200 armed ranchers threatened violence against him and his fellow officers if they did not return Bundy’s cattle to his ranch.
“The 200 followers … included a significant number brandishing or raising their assault rifles in front of the officers,” Willis wrote, describing a scene where men with guns “aimed directly” at his colleagues. “Some of the gunmen took tactically superior positions on high ground , while others moved in and out of the crowd, making their movements behind other unarmed followers.”(thinkprogess, with quote from the formal criminal complaint)
The huffpro links and aclu links are saying 'Whoa, let's be careful since he's presenting as a journalist.', but a jury will probably conclude he's cooperated too closely with the armed antigovernment militants, even while being not wielding the rifles himself.
posted by sebastienbailard at 12:13 AM on February 20, 2016 [3 favorites]
Here's a single snapshot, where he's interfering with a federal officer performing his duties: a BLM agent who was in the process of getting the cattle that would be used to pay for Cliven Bundy's unpaid pasturing fees.
(Note that the site with the transcript is a bit nutter/Koolaide.)
Secret audio recording from Bundy Ranch reveals BLM Special Agent Dan Love and Pete Santilli threatening each other with arrest over violations of U.S. Constitution
Sunday, April 13, 2014
by Mike Adams, the Health Ranger
Editor of NaturalNews.com (See all articles...)
Tags: secret audio recording, Bundy Ranch, BLM Dan Love
Secret audio recording
(NaturalNews) Natural News has obtained and is now releasing a secret audio recording of a conversation that took place Thursday, April 10th, between Daniel P. Love, Special Agent in Charge of Region 3 of the BLM and Guerilla Media Network radio host Pete Santilli, serving in the role as a communications liaison between the armed citizen protesters and the BLM.
In this recording, you can hear Daniel Love and Pete Santilli discussing life-and-death confrontations, during which Santilli says Daniel Love and the Sheriff of the county will be arrested if they do not uphold their oath to the United States Constitution.
...
His presenting oneself as a peaceful journalist is not consistent with his earlier actions as a spokesman for a group of armed antigovernment militants who menaced with firearms federal employees and law enforcement who carrying out their duties.
In Oregon he was arguably again acting as a Bundy mouthpiece and less arguably trying to summon more people to join the occupiers (huffpro). While he was trying to summon more 'unarmed' protesters (aclu), unarmed protesters cooperating with a core of armed protesters are just human shields, cover, and prospective martyrs, as at the Nevada Bundy ranch:
Former Arizona Sheriff Richard Mack, who was with the protesters, said that they were "strategizing to put all the women up at the front. If they are going to start shooting, it's going to be women that are going to be televised all across the world getting shot by these rogue federal officers".[9] (wikipedia)
See also:
And in the formal legal complaint against (Cliven Bundy) released Wednesday, FBI special agent Joel P. Willis recalled the day in 2014 when more than 200 armed ranchers threatened violence against him and his fellow officers if they did not return Bundy’s cattle to his ranch.
“The 200 followers … included a significant number brandishing or raising their assault rifles in front of the officers,” Willis wrote, describing a scene where men with guns “aimed directly” at his colleagues. “Some of the gunmen took tactically superior positions on high ground , while others moved in and out of the crowd, making their movements behind other unarmed followers.”(thinkprogess, with quote from the formal criminal complaint)
The huffpro links and aclu links are saying 'Whoa, let's be careful since he's presenting as a journalist.', but a jury will probably conclude he's cooperated too closely with the armed antigovernment militants, even while being not wielding the rifles himself.
posted by sebastienbailard at 12:13 AM on February 20, 2016 [3 favorites]
It may be that he's sincere in thinking himself a journalist.
posted by sebastienbailard at 12:15 AM on February 20, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by sebastienbailard at 12:15 AM on February 20, 2016 [1 favorite]
I can sincerely believe myself to be a great brain surgeon but that's not going to stop me being charged when I attempt it and fail.
posted by AGameOfMoans at 4:37 AM on February 20, 2016 [8 favorites]
posted by AGameOfMoans at 4:37 AM on February 20, 2016 [8 favorites]
An important principle of journalism is not to issue calls to action.
posted by Miko at 6:32 AM on February 20, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by Miko at 6:32 AM on February 20, 2016 [3 favorites]
A couple lists of journalistic principles that sort of suggest Santilli is more of a "partisan entertainer" than a "journalist": Ethical Journalism Network, American Press Institute.
posted by Miko at 6:35 AM on February 20, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Miko at 6:35 AM on February 20, 2016 [1 favorite]
Regarding Sandy Anderson's no contact order, if you examine Sean Anderson's arrest record and his temperament, he is likely a spousal abuser. I think Sandy is catching a major break here. She may be able to rescue her life out of this. She probably has Stockholm Syndrome and I hope she gets help.
posted by Oyéah at 9:02 AM on February 20, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by Oyéah at 9:02 AM on February 20, 2016 [2 favorites]
It comes off as patriarchal to me to free both of the women. They were both active parts of the occupation. Shawna Cox has continued her agitation with her (crazy)lawsuit, and at the end of the standoff it was Sandy Anderson who proved to be one of the more resistant. Yes, she may have mental health issues but that seems almost par for the course with this bunch.
I don't see a Stockholm Syndrome with her and her husband, more of a folie a deux.
posted by readery at 11:13 AM on February 20, 2016 [7 favorites]
I don't see a Stockholm Syndrome with her and her husband, more of a folie a deux.
posted by readery at 11:13 AM on February 20, 2016 [7 favorites]
The Republican Response to the Malheur Occupation. Cruz and Rubio are explicitly incorporating privatization of public lands into their campaigns, just like their Koch paymasters paid them to. The Bundys were backed by deep pockets after all.
posted by T.D. Strange at 2:20 PM on February 22, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by T.D. Strange at 2:20 PM on February 22, 2016 [3 favorites]
Rubio and Cruz are both at the point where they'd sell their own mothers for a couple of votes, so this isn't exactly a shocking development for them. I suspect they overestimate the support for that privatization among the voting base, though.
posted by Archelaus at 3:15 PM on February 22, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by Archelaus at 3:15 PM on February 22, 2016 [2 favorites]
Santilli is feeling the heat, new motion begging for a rehearing on his detention. Notably it doesn't mention his indictment on the other more serious 2014 charges.
posted by T.D. Strange at 6:24 AM on February 23, 2016
posted by T.D. Strange at 6:24 AM on February 23, 2016
So he's giving up his second amendment rights, just to get out of jail?
So many lols...
posted by Windopaene at 8:43 AM on February 23, 2016 [3 favorites]
So many lols...
posted by Windopaene at 8:43 AM on February 23, 2016 [3 favorites]
I also love the alternating arguments, "I'm a super serious journalist just doing his job, journalist stuff! Even the ACLU says I am!" vs. "Oh, actually I was lying the entire time, especially about all those calls to action and stuff about resisting tyranny to the dying breath.".
posted by T.D. Strange at 9:56 AM on February 23, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by T.D. Strange at 9:56 AM on February 23, 2016 [2 favorites]
As the Feds get ready to expand the indictments against the Bundy gang get your Bundy Bingo Card ready
posted by humanfont at 11:16 AM on February 23, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by humanfont at 11:16 AM on February 23, 2016 [1 favorite]
I know how he feels, jail sucks! I can smell it in his motion. I wonder if the effects of banking your freedom only on the first and second amendments are causing ripples across the nutosphere.
I can't but help notice how much closer Ohio is to Canada than Oregon is.
posted by rhizome at 12:00 PM on February 23, 2016
I can't but help notice how much closer Ohio is to Canada than Oregon is.
posted by rhizome at 12:00 PM on February 23, 2016
His lawyers are arguing he'd only be up for 12-18 months under the sentencing guidelines, and the year long pretrial phase would be too much, as they would be seeking probation. That's absolutely delusional considering he's also facing multiple 20 year felonies in Nevada, with a superseding indictment impending in Oregon. Welcome to the real world, Pete. Turns out the government has authority after all.
posted by T.D. Strange at 1:03 PM on February 23, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by T.D. Strange at 1:03 PM on February 23, 2016 [1 favorite]
Sorry, this may have already been posted, but I just heard a story on it and it was the first I've heard. Oregon Lawmakers Rush Bill to Shield Name of Officer who Shot Lavoy Finicum (OPB) and States Consider Legislation to Shield Law Enforcement Officers, from All Things Considered today, referencing the Oregon effort. Sorry audio on the latter's not avail yet, but will be soon and it was an interesting story that looked at this kind of initiative across Ferguson, Malheur, etc. Deserves more reporting.
posted by Miko at 2:29 PM on February 23, 2016
posted by Miko at 2:29 PM on February 23, 2016
I get why they're in a hurry to shield the dude's name from these crazypants, willing-to-shoot-at-cops militia dudes, on the one hand. On the other hand, cops have been getting death threats from criminals for ages and ages now, and I have to admit a certain part of me wonders why these guys seem different to legislators in this particular case.
posted by Archelaus at 4:49 PM on February 23, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Archelaus at 4:49 PM on February 23, 2016 [1 favorite]
... or, for that matter, why they believe the militia would be stopped by a law barring the name, given that they're already behaving in dangerous fashions as retaliation, as demonstrated in the linked articles.
posted by Archelaus at 4:51 PM on February 23, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Archelaus at 4:51 PM on February 23, 2016 [1 favorite]
I have mixed feelings about that too, it's such an abusable precedent. On the other hand I'm not thrilled by the idea of law enforcement being afraid to act due to their families potentially being targeted by these domestic terrorists. And they do have a history of murdering law enforcement, such as the Las Vegas shooters who wandered away from the Bundy confrontation. There's a whole lot of 'who will rid me of this troublesome priest' stuff that goes down in these circles. The main guys know what kind of nut they attract, and they encourage them to act violently.
posted by tavella at 5:00 PM on February 23, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by tavella at 5:00 PM on February 23, 2016 [1 favorite]
Is that the officer who snuck out of the forest and shot the guy in the back during the traffic stop thing? I can see why they'd want his identity hidden.
posted by rhizome at 5:10 PM on February 23, 2016
posted by rhizome at 5:10 PM on February 23, 2016
That's... remarkably charged language, rhizome. Surrounding people trying to run a traffic block is not generally referred to as 'sneaking', and if Finicum was shot in the back (unknown as of yet), it's because he had turned away from the officers on the road and moved to shoot the officer in the treeline, which those officers were not going to let happen.
posted by tavella at 5:37 PM on February 23, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by tavella at 5:37 PM on February 23, 2016 [3 favorites]
Just watched the video again. To me he exits the car with his hands up, walks in a kind of arc, generally facing the roadside officer. Then a guy comes out of the forest, Finicum appears to turn as if he heard a sound, then drops away from the forest shooter. I don't mean to threadshit, it's just a perhaps party-of-one interpretation. Now that I think of it, it could easily be trutherized, but that's how it appeared to me. "Hey who's that?" Like b-roll from "Miller's Crossing" or something.
But really, this is not germane to the thread at large, so I'm fine with being wrong on this.
posted by rhizome at 5:57 PM on February 23, 2016
But really, this is not germane to the thread at large, so I'm fine with being wrong on this.
posted by rhizome at 5:57 PM on February 23, 2016
Archelaus: "On the other hand, cops have been getting death threats from criminals for ages and ages now, and I have to admit a certain part of me wonders why these guys seem different to legislators in this particular case."
Because they're a conspiracy group? I would imagine similar ideas are floated regarding killings involving the Mafia, etc.
Archelaus: "why they believe the militia would be stopped by a law barring the name, given that they're already behaving in dangerous fashions as retaliation, as demonstrated in the linked articles."
I don't really get this sentence. The law wouldn't apply to the militia -- it's not a law that prevents someone from knowing the name. The law would apply to a judge, barring the judge from releasing the name. Without a name, the militia can't retaliate, so it's more like "precisely because they're behaving in dangerous fashions as retaliation."
posted by Bugbread at 6:01 PM on February 23, 2016
Because they're a conspiracy group? I would imagine similar ideas are floated regarding killings involving the Mafia, etc.
Archelaus: "why they believe the militia would be stopped by a law barring the name, given that they're already behaving in dangerous fashions as retaliation, as demonstrated in the linked articles."
I don't really get this sentence. The law wouldn't apply to the militia -- it's not a law that prevents someone from knowing the name. The law would apply to a judge, barring the judge from releasing the name. Without a name, the militia can't retaliate, so it's more like "precisely because they're behaving in dangerous fashions as retaliation."
posted by Bugbread at 6:01 PM on February 23, 2016
Bugbread - The point is: they're already escalating -without- the name. I'd give good odds that when told they never get it, they'll just continue the same nonsense.
IE: they are already breaking the law in a cavalier fashion in pursuit of "vengeance for their fallen" without the name. Getting told they won't get it through legal release doesn't -change- that.
posted by Archelaus at 6:08 PM on February 23, 2016
IE: they are already breaking the law in a cavalier fashion in pursuit of "vengeance for their fallen" without the name. Getting told they won't get it through legal release doesn't -change- that.
posted by Archelaus at 6:08 PM on February 23, 2016
Just watched the video again. To me he exits the car with his hands up, walks in a kind of arc, generally facing the roadside officer. Then a guy comes out of the forest, Finicum appears to turn as if he heard a sound, then drops away from the forest shooter.
By your count, how many times does he reach for his waist before they shoot him?
If he'd kept his hands over his head and away from his gun, he'd still be alive.
posted by sebastienbailard at 6:35 PM on February 23, 2016 [3 favorites]
By your count, how many times does he reach for his waist before they shoot him?
If he'd kept his hands over his head and away from his gun, he'd still be alive.
posted by sebastienbailard at 6:35 PM on February 23, 2016 [3 favorites]
Archelaus: "Bugbread - The point is: they're already escalating -without- the name. I'd give good odds that when told they never get it, they'll just continue the same nonsense.
IE: they are already breaking the law in a cavalier fashion in pursuit of "vengeance for their fallen" without the name. Getting told they won't get it through legal release doesn't -change- that."
The point of the law isn't to change the current escalation and nonsense, it's to prevent it from escalating yet further into the police officer getting murdered.
It's like "I'm not going to throw gasoline on this fire" -- Deciding not to throw gasoline on a fire doesn't put it out. Fire is already burning without gasoline, and even if you withhold the gasoline, it's going to continue burning. But throwing gasoline on the fire will make it burn more.
posted by Bugbread at 6:50 PM on February 23, 2016
IE: they are already breaking the law in a cavalier fashion in pursuit of "vengeance for their fallen" without the name. Getting told they won't get it through legal release doesn't -change- that."
The point of the law isn't to change the current escalation and nonsense, it's to prevent it from escalating yet further into the police officer getting murdered.
It's like "I'm not going to throw gasoline on this fire" -- Deciding not to throw gasoline on a fire doesn't put it out. Fire is already burning without gasoline, and even if you withhold the gasoline, it's going to continue burning. But throwing gasoline on the fire will make it burn more.
posted by Bugbread at 6:50 PM on February 23, 2016
rhizome: Is that the officer who snuck out of the forest and shot the guy in the back during the traffic stop thing? I can see why they'd want his identity hidden.
One interpretation I heard from a gun expert is that the officer that came out of the woods actually had a taser drawn, which is why he's leaning so far forward out of a traditional shooter's stance and in a position where if he was shooting with a gun the bullets could've hit officers in the crossfire. In this interpretation, the shots were fired from an officer at the cars that saw Lavoy go for the gun in his jacket before the taser could be used. I don't know if that's true, and if the snow affected the direction he fell to make it seem the shots came from the treeline officer, but it's an interesting interpretation. The official OSP shooting report should clarify all this, but I doubt anything will change my mind that this was avoidable if they'd given up at the initial traffic stop and not fled or almost run over an officer.
posted by bluecore at 7:05 PM on February 23, 2016
One interpretation I heard from a gun expert is that the officer that came out of the woods actually had a taser drawn, which is why he's leaning so far forward out of a traditional shooter's stance and in a position where if he was shooting with a gun the bullets could've hit officers in the crossfire. In this interpretation, the shots were fired from an officer at the cars that saw Lavoy go for the gun in his jacket before the taser could be used. I don't know if that's true, and if the snow affected the direction he fell to make it seem the shots came from the treeline officer, but it's an interesting interpretation. The official OSP shooting report should clarify all this, but I doubt anything will change my mind that this was avoidable if they'd given up at the initial traffic stop and not fled or almost run over an officer.
posted by bluecore at 7:05 PM on February 23, 2016
bluecore: " I don't know if that's true, and if the snow affected the direction he fell to make it seem the shots came from the treeline officer, but it's an interesting interpretation."
IANABallistics or weapon expert, but my impression is that the impact of a handgun's bullets is not strong enough to affect what direction you fall anyway. The whole "shot in chest makes you fly backwards" thing is a movie contrivance, isn't it?
posted by Bugbread at 7:35 PM on February 23, 2016
IANABallistics or weapon expert, but my impression is that the impact of a handgun's bullets is not strong enough to affect what direction you fall anyway. The whole "shot in chest makes you fly backwards" thing is a movie contrivance, isn't it?
posted by Bugbread at 7:35 PM on February 23, 2016
A dangerous situation was prevented by shooting an idiot as he reached for a gun, it doesn't really matter where the bullet cake from.
Said idiot was pretty lucky he didn't get everyone else in the car shot too.
posted by Artw at 7:44 PM on February 23, 2016 [2 favorites]
Said idiot was pretty lucky he didn't get everyone else in the car shot too.
posted by Artw at 7:44 PM on February 23, 2016 [2 favorites]
✓ Was part of an earlier episode where militants threatened law enforcement officers with guns.
✓ Wrote a book wherein a heroic Marysue outdraws and kills law enforcement officers.
✓ Occupied a federal facility while armed, nattering about tyranny and heroically killing law enforcement officers if they try to kick him out.
✓ Fled traffic stop.
✓ Nearly hit officer with car.
✓ Exited car but then milled about and reached for his jacket pockets in a manner very similar to that of a person drawing a gun from the pocket of a jacket. Rather than keeping his hands over his head.
✓ Was a firearms enthusiast who is supposed to know how to behave when peacefully surrendering to law enforcement.
What the fuck is a cop supposed to do when a militant, known to be armed, motions as if to draw a gun under these circumstances?
posted by sebastienbailard at 8:13 PM on February 23, 2016 [3 favorites]
✓ Wrote a book wherein a heroic Marysue outdraws and kills law enforcement officers.
✓ Occupied a federal facility while armed, nattering about tyranny and heroically killing law enforcement officers if they try to kick him out.
✓ Fled traffic stop.
✓ Nearly hit officer with car.
✓ Exited car but then milled about and reached for his jacket pockets in a manner very similar to that of a person drawing a gun from the pocket of a jacket. Rather than keeping his hands over his head.
✓ Was a firearms enthusiast who is supposed to know how to behave when peacefully surrendering to law enforcement.
What the fuck is a cop supposed to do when a militant, known to be armed, motions as if to draw a gun under these circumstances?
posted by sebastienbailard at 8:13 PM on February 23, 2016 [3 favorites]
Is that the officer who snuck out of the forest and shot the guy in the back during the traffic stop thing?
That wasn't the traffic stop. The traffic stop occurred about a mile back up the road. At the traffic stop they were ordered to surrender. One of the passengers did so, but the others refused to get out of the truck. Finicum continued to argue with the police for over three minutes, saying they had no jurisdiction to arrest him. Finally Finicum drove off, fleeing the traffic stop with police pursuing, encountered the roadblock about a mile further and tried to run around it at high speed, Smokey and the Bandit style. He nearly ran over one officer, failing only because the truck stopped in the snow a few feet from the officer. Finicum then jumped out of the vehicle which led to the shooting.
posted by JackFlash at 8:18 PM on February 23, 2016 [1 favorite]
That wasn't the traffic stop. The traffic stop occurred about a mile back up the road. At the traffic stop they were ordered to surrender. One of the passengers did so, but the others refused to get out of the truck. Finicum continued to argue with the police for over three minutes, saying they had no jurisdiction to arrest him. Finally Finicum drove off, fleeing the traffic stop with police pursuing, encountered the roadblock about a mile further and tried to run around it at high speed, Smokey and the Bandit style. He nearly ran over one officer, failing only because the truck stopped in the snow a few feet from the officer. Finicum then jumped out of the vehicle which led to the shooting.
posted by JackFlash at 8:18 PM on February 23, 2016 [1 favorite]
FWIW shootings of a far more questionable nature happen on a pretty regular basis, so feel free to weigh in on any of them.
posted by Artw at 8:24 PM on February 23, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Artw at 8:24 PM on February 23, 2016 [1 favorite]
✓ Was part of an earlier episode where militants threatened law enforcement officers with guns.
✓ Wrote a book wherein a heroic Marysue outdraws and kills law enforcement officers.
✓ Occupied a federal facility while armed, nattering about tyranny and heroically killing law enforcement officers if they try to kick him out.
✓ Fled traffic stop.
✓ Nearly hit officer with car.
✓ Exited car but then milled about and reached for his jacket pockets in a manner very similar to that of a person drawing a gun from the pocket of a jacket. Rather than keeping his hands over his head.
✓ Was a firearms enthusiast who is supposed to know how to behave when peacefully surrendering to law enforcement.
You forgot one:
✓Actually had a gun in the pocket he was reaching for
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 8:33 PM on February 23, 2016 [3 favorites]
✓ Wrote a book wherein a heroic Marysue outdraws and kills law enforcement officers.
✓ Occupied a federal facility while armed, nattering about tyranny and heroically killing law enforcement officers if they try to kick him out.
✓ Fled traffic stop.
✓ Nearly hit officer with car.
✓ Exited car but then milled about and reached for his jacket pockets in a manner very similar to that of a person drawing a gun from the pocket of a jacket. Rather than keeping his hands over his head.
✓ Was a firearms enthusiast who is supposed to know how to behave when peacefully surrendering to law enforcement.
You forgot one:
✓Actually had a gun in the pocket he was reaching for
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 8:33 PM on February 23, 2016 [3 favorites]
> But really, this is not germane to the thread at large, so I'm fine with being wrong on this.
What that says to me is:
- you don't admit that you were wrong,
- even if people prove you were wrong you're not inclined to change your mind, as you're fine with being wrong, and
- can we please stop discussing this.
It's some sort of mild-mannered castle of ignorance. I'm impressed.
posted by benito.strauss at 8:34 PM on February 23, 2016 [3 favorites]
What that says to me is:
- you don't admit that you were wrong,
- even if people prove you were wrong you're not inclined to change your mind, as you're fine with being wrong, and
- can we please stop discussing this.
It's some sort of mild-mannered castle of ignorance. I'm impressed.
posted by benito.strauss at 8:34 PM on February 23, 2016 [3 favorites]
It's some sort of mild-mannered castle of ignorance. I'm impressed.
Let’s let sleeping mild-mannered castles of ignorance lie.
posted by Going To Maine at 8:49 PM on February 23, 2016
Let’s let sleeping mild-mannered castles of ignorance lie.
posted by Going To Maine at 8:49 PM on February 23, 2016
It's some sort of mild-mannered castle of ignorance. I'm impressed.
It's an interpretation, let's not get carried away. I have some "whatabouts" but really I like the idea of waiting for the report. Thanks, bluecore, for taking it at face value.
posted by rhizome at 8:57 PM on February 23, 2016
It's an interpretation, let's not get carried away. I have some "whatabouts" but really I like the idea of waiting for the report. Thanks, bluecore, for taking it at face value.
posted by rhizome at 8:57 PM on February 23, 2016
I think that providing cover for your fellow law enforcement officers above the situation in the treeline was good planning on the part of the State Police, or it was a convenient bathroom break. There was no sneaking involved, just expertise, vs amateur, Walter Mitty style, insurrection.
I place the blame for Finicum's death squarely on Sheriff Palmer from the next county. He gave those crazy sheeple the feeling they were supported by local law enforcement, they were invincible, that reality was suspended. But then, those nasty bullets just pushed the air aside.
posted by Oyéah at 9:02 PM on February 23, 2016
I place the blame for Finicum's death squarely on Sheriff Palmer from the next county. He gave those crazy sheeple the feeling they were supported by local law enforcement, they were invincible, that reality was suspended. But then, those nasty bullets just pushed the air aside.
posted by Oyéah at 9:02 PM on February 23, 2016
> Let’s let sleeping mild-mannered castles of ignorance lie.
It's not sleeping.
But I take your point and will drop it.
posted by benito.strauss at 9:21 PM on February 23, 2016
It's not sleeping.
But I take your point and will drop it.
posted by benito.strauss at 9:21 PM on February 23, 2016
I place the blame for Finicum's death squarely on Sheriff Palmer from the next county.
Better to place it squarely on Finicum, who carried a gun, committed crimes, threatened to use his gun to shoot law enforcement officers if they attempted to stop him from committing crimes, resisted arrest, and then (apparently) attempted to use his gun on law enforcement officers.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 9:23 PM on February 23, 2016 [5 favorites]
Better to place it squarely on Finicum, who carried a gun, committed crimes, threatened to use his gun to shoot law enforcement officers if they attempted to stop him from committing crimes, resisted arrest, and then (apparently) attempted to use his gun on law enforcement officers.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 9:23 PM on February 23, 2016 [5 favorites]
Maybe the blame doesn't have to be placed squarely, but could in fact be apportioned out to various parties?
posted by Bugbread at 9:33 PM on February 23, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by Bugbread at 9:33 PM on February 23, 2016 [4 favorites]
Finicum died because of his White Privilege. Black kids are taught how to act when they're stopped by the police at an early age.
"Every black male I've ever met has had this talk, and it's likely that I'll have to give it one day too. There are so many things I need to tell my future son, already, before I've birthed him; so many innocuous, trite thoughts that may not make a single difference. Don't wear a hoodie. Don't try to break up a fight. Don't talk back to cops. Don't ask for help. But they're all variations of a single theme: Don't give them an excuse to kill you."posted by mikelieman at 10:31 PM on February 23, 2016 [6 favorites]
I totally agree with your quote, mikelieman: as a white guy, you don't think that wearing a hoodie, or trying to break up a fight, or talking back, or asking for a name, or trying to videotape an arrest, or turning your back, or any of that stuff is going to get you killed. But even the whitest whitebread guy knows "If you are holding a weapon and have threatened to kill policeman with that weapon, when you're under arrest, keep your goddamn hands in the goddamn air no matter what". Finicum got involved because of white privilege, believing he could just go occupy federal property at gunpoint and not have any major repercussions. He drove through the traffic stop because of white privilege. But the actual getting killed part? That was just straight-up stupidity, entirely on him.
posted by Bugbread at 12:23 AM on February 24, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by Bugbread at 12:23 AM on February 24, 2016 [4 favorites]
Unlike most death-by-cops, Finicum had thought about the scenario, "what to do when cops point guns at you". We know this because he wrote about it in his book and he spoke of it.
posted by sebastienbailard at 3:06 AM on February 24, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by sebastienbailard at 3:06 AM on February 24, 2016 [5 favorites]
$3.3 million and counting: The cost of the Malheur occupation.
posted by Floydd at 7:22 AM on February 24, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by Floydd at 7:22 AM on February 24, 2016 [3 favorites]
$3.3 million and counting: The cost of the Malheur occupation.
From the story, some of the outside militants hit up the Harney County Senior Center food bank for free food.
posted by JackFlash at 8:22 AM on February 24, 2016 [5 favorites]
From the story, some of the outside militants hit up the Harney County Senior Center food bank for free food.
posted by JackFlash at 8:22 AM on February 24, 2016 [5 favorites]
The food bank thing makes me so angry.
Has anyone released photos of the aftermath at Malheur, like the damage of what they dug up and the state of the buildings?
posted by mochapickle at 9:59 AM on February 24, 2016 [1 favorite]
Has anyone released photos of the aftermath at Malheur, like the damage of what they dug up and the state of the buildings?
posted by mochapickle at 9:59 AM on February 24, 2016 [1 favorite]
I'm expecting we'll see that eventually in some form of press release, probably with additional charges.
posted by Miko at 11:11 AM on February 24, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by Miko at 11:11 AM on February 24, 2016 [2 favorites]
I'm curious what people think the large scale response to this whole phenomenon should be. I was thinking, has there ever been an insurgent movement of this scale, with it's constant threat of violence, going unchecked? Like, in history?
I feel like I must be missing a million obvious ones, but....
posted by Trochanter at 12:26 PM on February 24, 2016
I feel like I must be missing a million obvious ones, but....
posted by Trochanter at 12:26 PM on February 24, 2016
Oregon isn't the only state trying to hide police officers' names: Secret police? Virginia considers bill to withhold all officers’ names. (Washington Post)
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 2:46 PM on February 24, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 2:46 PM on February 24, 2016 [2 favorites]
Ammon Bundy, others plead not guilty; judge aims to avoid trial delay
posted by zakur at 2:55 PM on February 24, 2016
posted by zakur at 2:55 PM on February 24, 2016
The judge is pissed new indictments have not been filed yet. Starting here
posted by T.D. Strange at 4:11 PM on February 24, 2016
posted by T.D. Strange at 4:11 PM on February 24, 2016
And Santelli is getting a third bite at the apple for bail
posted by T.D. Strange at 4:14 PM on February 24, 2016
posted by T.D. Strange at 4:14 PM on February 24, 2016
Man alive... those Sharp siblings really will not let a chance to sing go by untaken, will they?
posted by running order squabble fest at 4:32 PM on February 24, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by running order squabble fest at 4:32 PM on February 24, 2016 [2 favorites]
And Victoria's the worst/yowliest one of them.
posted by mochapickle at 5:05 PM on February 24, 2016
posted by mochapickle at 5:05 PM on February 24, 2016
Man, I'm starting to get a Manson Family vibe off of some of this.
posted by valkane at 6:02 PM on February 24, 2016
posted by valkane at 6:02 PM on February 24, 2016
What, only just?
posted by Archelaus at 6:05 PM on February 24, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Archelaus at 6:05 PM on February 24, 2016 [1 favorite]
Sorry, sometimes I can be kinda slow, but given time I can see through a brick wall.
posted by valkane at 6:12 PM on February 24, 2016
posted by valkane at 6:12 PM on February 24, 2016
This part though:
"After the judge explained their rights to a trial and their presumption of innocence, several of the defendants directly challenged her assertions.
"It's difficult to understand the presumption of innocence when I've spent the last month in a jail cell and led around in chains wherever I go,'' Payne said.
Brown said she understood his concerns, but noted that his detention was a separate matter.
Co-defendant Ryan Bundy, standing beside his lawyer in the jury box, grabbed hold of a wireless microphone that the lawyers were passing from one to another and told the court that he shared the same reservation. He is Ammon Bundy's older brother.
"We're being treated as we're guilty,'' he said. "So I don't understand the presumption of innocence.''
Co-defendant Jason Patrick, when asked if he understood his constitutional rights, replied, "I understand I have no rights at all. You're the federal government. You're going to do whatever you want.''
And David Fry, the last to surrender to federal officers on Feb. 11, joined in, "It's weird - innocent until proven guilty - shackled up.''"
Total lack of comprehension of reality. Or denial. Or whatever. At least it seems they've all got their stories straight. They would make great republican politicians. "Rule of law? Never heard of it."
posted by valkane at 6:17 PM on February 24, 2016 [6 favorites]
"After the judge explained their rights to a trial and their presumption of innocence, several of the defendants directly challenged her assertions.
"It's difficult to understand the presumption of innocence when I've spent the last month in a jail cell and led around in chains wherever I go,'' Payne said.
Brown said she understood his concerns, but noted that his detention was a separate matter.
Co-defendant Ryan Bundy, standing beside his lawyer in the jury box, grabbed hold of a wireless microphone that the lawyers were passing from one to another and told the court that he shared the same reservation. He is Ammon Bundy's older brother.
"We're being treated as we're guilty,'' he said. "So I don't understand the presumption of innocence.''
Co-defendant Jason Patrick, when asked if he understood his constitutional rights, replied, "I understand I have no rights at all. You're the federal government. You're going to do whatever you want.''
And David Fry, the last to surrender to federal officers on Feb. 11, joined in, "It's weird - innocent until proven guilty - shackled up.''"
Total lack of comprehension of reality. Or denial. Or whatever. At least it seems they've all got their stories straight. They would make great republican politicians. "Rule of law? Never heard of it."
posted by valkane at 6:17 PM on February 24, 2016 [6 favorites]
Found this comment at that OregonLive article:
"The US Admiralty Flag was introduced by Pres DD Eisenhower to be used in military contexts like the post-14th amendment court system which he handed through this mechanism to the British Monarchy as part of the plot to sell us out to the Eurpoen Communist Union which was in its infancy at that stage.
Honestly, it's like none of y'all got a proper Home Schoolin."
Beautiful.
posted by valkane at 6:28 PM on February 24, 2016 [4 favorites]
"The US Admiralty Flag was introduced by Pres DD Eisenhower to be used in military contexts like the post-14th amendment court system which he handed through this mechanism to the British Monarchy as part of the plot to sell us out to the Eurpoen Communist Union which was in its infancy at that stage.
Honestly, it's like none of y'all got a proper Home Schoolin."
Beautiful.
posted by valkane at 6:28 PM on February 24, 2016 [4 favorites]
None of the would be happening if Congress would confirm a circuit judge for the moon.
posted by rhizome at 7:36 PM on February 24, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by rhizome at 7:36 PM on February 24, 2016 [3 favorites]
I'm curious what people think the large scale response to this whole phenomenon should be. I was thinking, has there ever been an insurgent movement of this scale, with it's constant threat of violence, going unchecked? Like, in history?
It is a real stretch to call this large-scale, or to say that it was unchecked. There were about 30 or 35 occupiers, and some number more supporters and hangers-on who came into town to do things like set up the supposed medical support tent for a weekend. There was a lot of talk but the supposed hundreds and thousands of armed and revolutionary supporters turned out to not exist, particularly when the federal government decided to flex a very tiny piece of its security apparatus.
If there really were thousands of people willing to take up arms then it would have been a very different situation, but that only existed in people's imaginations.
posted by Dip Flash at 7:48 PM on February 24, 2016 [5 favorites]
It is a real stretch to call this large-scale, or to say that it was unchecked. There were about 30 or 35 occupiers, and some number more supporters and hangers-on who came into town to do things like set up the supposed medical support tent for a weekend. There was a lot of talk but the supposed hundreds and thousands of armed and revolutionary supporters turned out to not exist, particularly when the federal government decided to flex a very tiny piece of its security apparatus.
If there really were thousands of people willing to take up arms then it would have been a very different situation, but that only existed in people's imaginations.
posted by Dip Flash at 7:48 PM on February 24, 2016 [5 favorites]
I fret that we'll see Timothy McVeigh-type snipers or bombers after this.
Mind you, they'd have riled themselves up for some random other reason, like the wind blowing a particularly spooky plastic bag past them, or that somehow the president is black/female/other, and so on.
Finicum's martyrdom-by-cop notwithstanding, the rest of the occupiers really botched the theatre and propaganda side of this, which is a relief. I think they needed to schedule more iconic-man-with-flag-on-horse time on their chores rota.
posted by sebastienbailard at 9:15 PM on February 24, 2016 [2 favorites]
Mind you, they'd have riled themselves up for some random other reason, like the wind blowing a particularly spooky plastic bag past them, or that somehow the president is black/female/other, and so on.
Finicum's martyrdom-by-cop notwithstanding, the rest of the occupiers really botched the theatre and propaganda side of this, which is a relief. I think they needed to schedule more iconic-man-with-flag-on-horse time on their chores rota.
posted by sebastienbailard at 9:15 PM on February 24, 2016 [2 favorites]
It is a real stretch to call this large-scale, or to say that it was unchecked
I completely agree. This was nothing. A cursory glance over protests in American history puts this in clear context as a minor incident - significant only because it puts paid to a house-of-cards "movement" that at one time enjoyed some credibility for its rhetoric, but is now revealed to be mostly fantasy.
posted by Miko at 9:35 PM on February 24, 2016
I completely agree. This was nothing. A cursory glance over protests in American history puts this in clear context as a minor incident - significant only because it puts paid to a house-of-cards "movement" that at one time enjoyed some credibility for its rhetoric, but is now revealed to be mostly fantasy.
posted by Miko at 9:35 PM on February 24, 2016
Finicum's martyrdom-by-cop notwithstanding, the rest of the occupiers really botched the theatre and propaganda side of this, which is a relief.
They're deep enough down the rabbit hole and sufficiently lacking in self-awareness that they're not capable of marketing to anybody who isn't already on their side.
posted by Pope Guilty at 10:43 PM on February 24, 2016 [2 favorites]
They're deep enough down the rabbit hole and sufficiently lacking in self-awareness that they're not capable of marketing to anybody who isn't already on their side.
posted by Pope Guilty at 10:43 PM on February 24, 2016 [2 favorites]
These guys remind me of Westboro Baptists and their protests. They are disconnected from reality and everytime they show up their opponents get stronger.
posted by humanfont at 4:36 AM on February 25, 2016
posted by humanfont at 4:36 AM on February 25, 2016
I was thinking, has there ever been an insurgent movement of this scale, with it's constant threat of violence, going unchecked? Like, in history?
The KKK for one, the militia movements of 30 years ago for another, then you have the Know-Nothings, the anti-Irish violence, the violent Copperheads of the Civil War era, the secessionist threats of the 1790s and the Whiskey Rebellion, not to mention organized crime, the Mafia, gang violence, drug cartels, etc. All of these "patriots" bear watching, but put into perspective, sovcitery is simply a law enforcement problem, like any other gang. (And the comparison to gangs is probably a useful way to understand and deal with these guys.) Post-Malheur, I'd say the biggest threat is retaliatory violence, McVeigh stylee.
posted by octobersurprise at 6:36 AM on February 25, 2016 [6 favorites]
The KKK for one, the militia movements of 30 years ago for another, then you have the Know-Nothings, the anti-Irish violence, the violent Copperheads of the Civil War era, the secessionist threats of the 1790s and the Whiskey Rebellion, not to mention organized crime, the Mafia, gang violence, drug cartels, etc. All of these "patriots" bear watching, but put into perspective, sovcitery is simply a law enforcement problem, like any other gang. (And the comparison to gangs is probably a useful way to understand and deal with these guys.) Post-Malheur, I'd say the biggest threat is retaliatory violence, McVeigh stylee.
posted by octobersurprise at 6:36 AM on February 25, 2016 [6 favorites]
Meanwhile, back in LULZville, Fake judge Bruce Doucette is putting together a posse consisting of Fake judge Anna Von Schwartzwalder Kirschtorte, Fake lawyer Bill Thornton, and Fake Common Law advocate Rodger Dowdell, to spring the Bundys from the not-so-fake hoosegow:
posted by octobersurprise at 7:03 AM on February 25, 2016 [2 favorites]
"GREAT NEWS !!I swear, it's sadder than a one-legged man in a three-legged race.
THE LEGENDARY BILL THORNTON HAS DECIDED TO JOIN JUDGE ANNA, Rodger Dowdell and myself (Judge Doucette) in Getting the BUNDYS and all our PATRIOTS, out of jail and THE LAND TAKEN BY THE BLM restored to It's rightful owners !!! GOD BLESS YOU BILL !!
posted by octobersurprise at 7:03 AM on February 25, 2016 [2 favorites]
Oh Jesus wept. That thread you linked, octobersurprise...it hurts my brain to read.
One person asks Doucette "could you plz write a post explaining how constitutional judges ARE legitimate AND why it's important....just a short easily understood post....I have tri" and then that comment cuts off to be followed by a separate comment "I've been hacked by trolls accusing you all of being illegal "imposter" etc...I can barely post now. Plz post a rebuttal to the hate and misperceptions!" Yes, I sometimes have trouble with my keypad, too, lady.
Doucette responds with the informative: "it is not that I would not like to answer everyone ........ Especially those that are attacking me ........ How ever if I wast the time to do that, then it keeps me from getting real work done ........ We have to get over 100 separate court documents ready to go out. We are working on getting our true patriots out of jail and back with their family........ Then I have my real work to try and restore the Constitution to this land and set up lawful Common Law courts ( Superior courts ) in all fifty states ........ Which we currently have about 20 states up and running. As well as try and educate the public about our true history and true law ........ But I will take the time to respond to your question ........ you can easily answer them yourself by just reading the real Constitution and please stop trying to make common Law Judges out to be something important........ We have no power ........ The power comes from the people of the grand jury..... To directly answer your question I was asked to be a Judge by the people and I prayed for several months before deciding to become a Judge ........ And I was also appointed by a Common Law Judge so you could say I was both chosen by the people as well as appointed ........ So please feel free to copy and past this answer with anyone else who has this question........ Thank You and God Bless"
Another "old grandmother" worried about the future: " Face Book is very good at deleting information they don't want Americans talking about. A few examples: HAARP (the 120 microwave towers located in Alaska beaming the ionosphere with the power of equal to 75,000 If our most powerful AM stations. This is weather changing technology and Obama has the audacity to blame us for Climate change. "
Unfortunately we missed Bruce's conference call last night:
"YOU ARE ALL INVITED TO LISTEN IN ON THE NATION WIDE
COMMON LAW JUDGES AND MARSHALL CALL
IT IS OPEN TO EVERYONE
WEDNESDAY NIGHT 8:15 mountain time
Call in number 712-775-7035 access code 782102#
We now have 15-20 common law courts up and running across the Continental
United States of America and bringing more on all the time ! All of our calls are always open to the public..... Please join us, listen in and find out what is happening!"
It's all there - chemtrails, aluminum, Agenda 21. At this point if I had ever made even a slight gesture toward supporting these misguided loons I would be distancing myself as far as I possibly could right now out of sheer embarrassment.
Here's the Legendary Bill Thornton's essay on "PEOPLE or CITIZEN WHICH ONE ARE YOU?" and his Intro to Sovereigntyon YouTube.
He's s cringeworthy presenter - one of those presenters who complains about the mic because he doesn't know how to use a mic, gets it turned up and then gets massive blowout, feedback and echo. Then he doesn't have his presentation fully cued up and has to muck around in his Windows directories, messes up by double-clicking and exits so he can use the start menu, narrating the process all the way.
LEGENDARY!
posted by Miko at 7:37 AM on February 25, 2016 [4 favorites]
One person asks Doucette "could you plz write a post explaining how constitutional judges ARE legitimate AND why it's important....just a short easily understood post....I have tri" and then that comment cuts off to be followed by a separate comment "I've been hacked by trolls accusing you all of being illegal "imposter" etc...I can barely post now. Plz post a rebuttal to the hate and misperceptions!" Yes, I sometimes have trouble with my keypad, too, lady.
Doucette responds with the informative: "it is not that I would not like to answer everyone ........ Especially those that are attacking me ........ How ever if I wast the time to do that, then it keeps me from getting real work done ........ We have to get over 100 separate court documents ready to go out. We are working on getting our true patriots out of jail and back with their family........ Then I have my real work to try and restore the Constitution to this land and set up lawful Common Law courts ( Superior courts ) in all fifty states ........ Which we currently have about 20 states up and running. As well as try and educate the public about our true history and true law ........ But I will take the time to respond to your question ........ you can easily answer them yourself by just reading the real Constitution and please stop trying to make common Law Judges out to be something important........ We have no power ........ The power comes from the people of the grand jury..... To directly answer your question I was asked to be a Judge by the people and I prayed for several months before deciding to become a Judge ........ And I was also appointed by a Common Law Judge so you could say I was both chosen by the people as well as appointed ........ So please feel free to copy and past this answer with anyone else who has this question........ Thank You and God Bless"
Another "old grandmother" worried about the future: " Face Book is very good at deleting information they don't want Americans talking about. A few examples: HAARP (the 120 microwave towers located in Alaska beaming the ionosphere with the power of equal to 75,000 If our most powerful AM stations. This is weather changing technology and Obama has the audacity to blame us for Climate change. "
Unfortunately we missed Bruce's conference call last night:
"YOU ARE ALL INVITED TO LISTEN IN ON THE NATION WIDE
COMMON LAW JUDGES AND MARSHALL CALL
IT IS OPEN TO EVERYONE
WEDNESDAY NIGHT 8:15 mountain time
Call in number 712-775-7035 access code 782102#
We now have 15-20 common law courts up and running across the Continental
United States of America and bringing more on all the time ! All of our calls are always open to the public..... Please join us, listen in and find out what is happening!"
It's all there - chemtrails, aluminum, Agenda 21. At this point if I had ever made even a slight gesture toward supporting these misguided loons I would be distancing myself as far as I possibly could right now out of sheer embarrassment.
Here's the Legendary Bill Thornton's essay on "PEOPLE or CITIZEN WHICH ONE ARE YOU?" and his Intro to Sovereigntyon YouTube.
He's s cringeworthy presenter - one of those presenters who complains about the mic because he doesn't know how to use a mic, gets it turned up and then gets massive blowout, feedback and echo. Then he doesn't have his presentation fully cued up and has to muck around in his Windows directories, messes up by double-clicking and exits so he can use the start menu, narrating the process all the way.
LEGENDARY!
posted by Miko at 7:37 AM on February 25, 2016 [4 favorites]
You'll also get plenty of history education, including completely wrong explanations of how we got compulsory public education and how the Civil War began when Lincoln attacked the Southern states for nonpayment of taxes.
posted by Miko at 7:38 AM on February 25, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by Miko at 7:38 AM on February 25, 2016 [3 favorites]
The Q&A part is precious. Watching the speaker and the audience struggle to match up their completely erroneous understandings and agree on imaginary structures is pretty sad and funny.
posted by Miko at 7:53 AM on February 25, 2016
posted by Miko at 7:53 AM on February 25, 2016
What's with the super ellipses.........this guys uses.........in everything he writes? Is that part of moon law style?
posted by zakur at 8:08 AM on February 25, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by zakur at 8:08 AM on February 25, 2016 [2 favorites]
Those......are full......moons.....
posted by Floydd at 8:18 AM on February 25, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by Floydd at 8:18 AM on February 25, 2016 [4 favorites]
Those aren't ellipses, they're lacunae: n. An empty space or a missing part; a gap: "self-centered in opinion, with curious lacunae of astounding ignorance” ( Frank Norris).
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 8:38 AM on February 25, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 8:38 AM on February 25, 2016 [2 favorites]
I've done it again, gone down the SovCit video rabbit hole. I am starting to feel bad about it, and my view of people like Doucette and Thornton is extremely dim - they are apparently not insane, but their irresponsible and immature imaginings not only incite violence but also create terrible situations for people with mental instabilities, like Fry, and this fellow.
posted by Miko at 8:46 AM on February 25, 2016
posted by Miko at 8:46 AM on February 25, 2016
I still can't get past the name Anna von Schwartzwalder Kirschtorte. What with the death of irony and the apparent mental state of these folks, I can't figure out if that's a name she's chosen for herself or a nickname people have applied to her, and I don't want to pollute my google history in order to find out.
posted by fedward at 9:02 AM on February 25, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by fedward at 9:02 AM on February 25, 2016 [2 favorites]
More about that fellow - Ernie Tertelgte, the Natural Living Man - from Encyclopedia Dramatica. He's got his SovCit theory down, but he's...not doing okay.
This has me reflecting on how much about this movement is not only white supremacist, but also deeply ingrained in patriarchy. The stance and rhetoric is so focused on power. It's like these men are trying for a Hail Mary pass that they hope will award to them a rightful, independent, total power that they feel the contemporary world has stripped away. Their attempts to shift the entire frame of discourse to a structure of their own choosing, and which of course is the structure that in their minds affords them more power, seems to me to have its roots in fear and resentment associated with the threat of the loss of male supremacy in modern society. I know there are women who are deeply into this too, but I don't think it would have anything near the legs it does without the resentment associated with structural threats to patriarchal systems.
posted by Miko at 9:04 AM on February 25, 2016 [2 favorites]
This has me reflecting on how much about this movement is not only white supremacist, but also deeply ingrained in patriarchy. The stance and rhetoric is so focused on power. It's like these men are trying for a Hail Mary pass that they hope will award to them a rightful, independent, total power that they feel the contemporary world has stripped away. Their attempts to shift the entire frame of discourse to a structure of their own choosing, and which of course is the structure that in their minds affords them more power, seems to me to have its roots in fear and resentment associated with the threat of the loss of male supremacy in modern society. I know there are women who are deeply into this too, but I don't think it would have anything near the legs it does without the resentment associated with structural threats to patriarchal systems.
posted by Miko at 9:04 AM on February 25, 2016 [2 favorites]
You mean Judge Anna of the Black Forest Cherry Cake? Literal translation, it sounds like a novelty stripper name. The whole thing is kind of Terry Southern, I know you didn't ask me. I would swear it is all made up, if I hadn't seen stranger stuff. I live in the state of the original strange and ongoing, proposition.
posted by Oyéah at 9:15 AM on February 25, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by Oyéah at 9:15 AM on February 25, 2016 [2 favorites]
I can't figure out if that's a name she's chosen for herself or a nickname people have applied to her
She is Anna of the Many Names. A US Tax Court order gives her name as ANNA M. RIEZINGER VON REITZ. She often gives it as Anna Von Reitz. But she's also known as Anna Maria Wilhelmina Hanna Sophia Riezinger-von Reitzenstein von Lettow-Vorbeck, Private Attorney in service to His Holiness, Pope Francis, or simply Anna Maria anu-hotep when she's writing to His Holiness. Last November she wrote to Sheriff Ward informing him of the 279 trillion dollar lien assessed against "the American Bar Association, the International Bar Association, and the “US DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE ..." Here's Anna's advice on how to sign a document. She's married to a painter and they live in Alaska just down the road from the Palin's.
posted by octobersurprise at 10:17 AM on February 25, 2016 [8 favorites]
She is Anna of the Many Names. A US Tax Court order gives her name as ANNA M. RIEZINGER VON REITZ. She often gives it as Anna Von Reitz. But she's also known as Anna Maria Wilhelmina Hanna Sophia Riezinger-von Reitzenstein von Lettow-Vorbeck, Private Attorney in service to His Holiness, Pope Francis, or simply Anna Maria anu-hotep when she's writing to His Holiness. Last November she wrote to Sheriff Ward informing him of the 279 trillion dollar lien assessed against "the American Bar Association, the International Bar Association, and the “US DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE ..." Here's Anna's advice on how to sign a document. She's married to a painter and they live in Alaska just down the road from the Palin's.
posted by octobersurprise at 10:17 AM on February 25, 2016 [8 favorites]
Where am I going to get my daily dose of crazy when this thread closes?
"The US Admiralty Flag was introduced by Pres DD Eisenhower to be used in military contexts like the post-14th amendment court system which he handed through this mechanism to the British Monarchy..."
So the Queen owns American courts? Does this mean a British judge could sit in judgement and it would be all fine and dandy then? Or does it have to be someone from the Royal Household? Or can any British Citizen (or Person) judge them?
posted by marienbad at 2:08 PM on February 25, 2016
"The US Admiralty Flag was introduced by Pres DD Eisenhower to be used in military contexts like the post-14th amendment court system which he handed through this mechanism to the British Monarchy..."
So the Queen owns American courts? Does this mean a British judge could sit in judgement and it would be all fine and dandy then? Or does it have to be someone from the Royal Household? Or can any British Citizen (or Person) judge them?
posted by marienbad at 2:08 PM on February 25, 2016
There seem to be a fair number of different versions of the story about when and how the US came to be a corporate entity controlled by the British Crown.
posted by Miko at 3:28 PM on February 25, 2016
posted by Miko at 3:28 PM on February 25, 2016
Where am I going to get my daily dose of crazy when this thread closes?
Just read an election thread?
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 3:35 PM on February 25, 2016 [6 favorites]
Just read an election thread?
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 3:35 PM on February 25, 2016 [6 favorites]
What irritates me is that if we started enforcing uk laws in the courts, the public records and court transcripts would show this and Princess Pastry could damn well cite them through the miracle of "hyperlinks".
posted by sebastienbailard at 3:38 PM on February 25, 2016
posted by sebastienbailard at 3:38 PM on February 25, 2016
Just read an election thread?
Nope. Too depressing, as that crazy is fast becoming actual reality.
posted by Archelaus at 3:43 PM on February 25, 2016
Nope. Too depressing, as that crazy is fast becoming actual reality.
posted by Archelaus at 3:43 PM on February 25, 2016
I have to say that Bill Thornton’s website, 1215.org, and his webmaster subsite seems pretty great. It’s a charmingly minimal version of geocities.
posted by Going To Maine at 4:40 PM on February 25, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Going To Maine at 4:40 PM on February 25, 2016 [1 favorite]
marienbad: "So the Queen owns American courts? Does this mean a British judge could sit in judgement and it would be all fine and dandy then? Or does it have to be someone from the Royal Household? Or can any British Citizen (or Person) judge them?"
The idea is that the U.S. courts are now a company, so think of it like that. Imagine that a Company A buys out some non-profit organization -- a church bake group or school PTA or the like -- and turns it into a company (Company B, a subsidiary of Company A). Company A will set up articles of incorporation and define positions and rules. So it will say, for example, "The date of the school fair shall be decided by the Chairman. The Chairman shall be selected by a vote of the members of the PTA." So does that mean that the CEO of Company A could decide the date of the school fair? Well, yes, he could, but it wouldn't be "fine and dandy". It would be a violation of the bylaws, but an internal problem, and he would choose not to punish himself. What happens, in situations like that, is that the CEO would instead first change Company B's rules to say "The date of the school fair shall be decided by the Chairman or the CEO," and then make the decision. Then it would be fine and dandy.
As far as who could make the changes to the rules to allow that, I'm not sure (I used the CEO in my example above, but in real companies, too, it could be a Board of Directors or a shareholder vote or the like). Anyone who knows monarchic law, a few questions:
If a "monarchy" owns something, is that just a fancy way of saying that a monarch owns something? That is, if you gave something to the "British Monarchy" would that mean you're giving it to Queen Elizabeth II herself, and she can dispose of it as she sees fit? Or does the "British Monarchy" mean its jointly owned by the entire royal family, and joint ownership laws would apply? Or does the "British Monarchy" mean that its owned by the country itself, in which case the UK parliament would have the power to change the rules?
posted by Bugbread at 4:52 PM on February 25, 2016 [1 favorite]
The idea is that the U.S. courts are now a company, so think of it like that. Imagine that a Company A buys out some non-profit organization -- a church bake group or school PTA or the like -- and turns it into a company (Company B, a subsidiary of Company A). Company A will set up articles of incorporation and define positions and rules. So it will say, for example, "The date of the school fair shall be decided by the Chairman. The Chairman shall be selected by a vote of the members of the PTA." So does that mean that the CEO of Company A could decide the date of the school fair? Well, yes, he could, but it wouldn't be "fine and dandy". It would be a violation of the bylaws, but an internal problem, and he would choose not to punish himself. What happens, in situations like that, is that the CEO would instead first change Company B's rules to say "The date of the school fair shall be decided by the Chairman or the CEO," and then make the decision. Then it would be fine and dandy.
As far as who could make the changes to the rules to allow that, I'm not sure (I used the CEO in my example above, but in real companies, too, it could be a Board of Directors or a shareholder vote or the like). Anyone who knows monarchic law, a few questions:
If a "monarchy" owns something, is that just a fancy way of saying that a monarch owns something? That is, if you gave something to the "British Monarchy" would that mean you're giving it to Queen Elizabeth II herself, and she can dispose of it as she sees fit? Or does the "British Monarchy" mean its jointly owned by the entire royal family, and joint ownership laws would apply? Or does the "British Monarchy" mean that its owned by the country itself, in which case the UK parliament would have the power to change the rules?
posted by Bugbread at 4:52 PM on February 25, 2016 [1 favorite]
Where am I going to get my daily dose of crazy when this thread closes?
The judge here really seems set on an April trial date, don't worry, if that sticks someone will make a new update thread.
posted by T.D. Strange at 5:41 PM on February 25, 2016 [1 favorite]
The judge here really seems set on an April trial date, don't worry, if that sticks someone will make a new update thread.
posted by T.D. Strange at 5:41 PM on February 25, 2016 [1 favorite]
Bugbread: Or does the "British Monarchy" mean that its owned by the country itself, in which case the UK parliament would have the power to change the rules?
That meaning would pretty much describe The Crown, which would broadly be analogous to the Federal Government in the US.
The Monarchy would be closer to your definition here:
All that said, I thought that the original quote ( "The US Admiralty Flag was introduced by Pres DD Eisenhower to be used in military contexts like the post-14th amendment court system which he handed through this mechanism to the British Monarchy...") was a parody, but let's face it this is so crazy who knows?
posted by Pink Frost at 6:20 PM on February 25, 2016
That meaning would pretty much describe The Crown, which would broadly be analogous to the Federal Government in the US.
The Monarchy would be closer to your definition here:
That is, if you gave something to the "British Monarchy" would that mean you're giving it to Queen Elizabeth II herself, and she can dispose of it as she sees fit? "(Although I imagine that there would be insanely detailed constitutional protocol about what QEII could, in practice, do with gifts and so on).
All that said, I thought that the original quote ( "The US Admiralty Flag was introduced by Pres DD Eisenhower to be used in military contexts like the post-14th amendment court system which he handed through this mechanism to the British Monarchy...") was a parody, but let's face it this is so crazy who knows?
posted by Pink Frost at 6:20 PM on February 25, 2016
Pink Frost: "All that said, I thought that the original quote ( "The US Admiralty Flag was introduced by Pres DD Eisenhower to be used in military contexts like the post-14th...was a parody"
Well, yes and no. It took a bunch of different sovereign citizen beliefs and rolled them up into one parody, so I was just rolling with it. But the "U.S. court system was sold to the British monarchy and became a company" thing is an actual sovereign citizen belief (Google "British Accreditation Registry" (i.e. the Bar association) for more madness)
posted by Bugbread at 7:06 PM on February 25, 2016 [1 favorite]
Well, yes and no. It took a bunch of different sovereign citizen beliefs and rolled them up into one parody, so I was just rolling with it. But the "U.S. court system was sold to the British monarchy and became a company" thing is an actual sovereign citizen belief (Google "British Accreditation Registry" (i.e. the Bar association) for more madness)
posted by Bugbread at 7:06 PM on February 25, 2016 [1 favorite]
Here's a nice short crazy:
Notice to all Members of the B.A.R. — [British Accreditation Registry]
Items of interest:
Notice to all Members of the B.A.R. — [British Accreditation Registry]
Items of interest:
- Bar-certified lawyers are actually nobility
- The presence of a bar-certified lawyer automatically invalidates any legal proceedings
- If a bar-certified lawyer takes part in a sovereign Grand Jury it can be taken as an act of war and is a hangable offense
Somebody said it: Calvin Ball.
posted by Trochanter at 8:12 PM on February 25, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by Trochanter at 8:12 PM on February 25, 2016 [4 favorites]
Bar-certified lawyers are actually nobility
I'm going to say that this applies to foreign lawyers too. Because I want to be nobility.
Yours sincerely,
BARON von (cherry strudel) RED THOUGHTS Esq.
CROWN PRINCE OF TERRA AUSTRALIS
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 8:30 PM on February 25, 2016 [7 favorites]
I'm going to say that this applies to foreign lawyers too. Because I want to be nobility.
Yours sincerely,
BARON von (cherry strudel) RED THOUGHTS Esq.
CROWN PRINCE OF TERRA AUSTRALIS
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 8:30 PM on February 25, 2016 [7 favorites]
Only now found this decent Wikipedia explainer on the Redemption Movement.
And huh, apparently Jared Lougner had some SovCit connection, or at least had imbibed their videos. I remember his statements being reported as just "anti-government rantings," which they are, but that minimizes their link to this body of rhetoric.
posted by Miko at 8:33 PM on February 25, 2016
And huh, apparently Jared Lougner had some SovCit connection, or at least had imbibed their videos. I remember his statements being reported as just "anti-government rantings," which they are, but that minimizes their link to this body of rhetoric.
posted by Miko at 8:33 PM on February 25, 2016
SPLC on Roger Elvick, apparent founder of the Redemption Movement. RationalWiki on his Strawman Theory. Clear ties to white supremacy, and now I feel like it's becoming a little clearer how this mishmosh of ideas gets pulled together into a semi-coherent body of moon legal theory. A combination of outright fraudsters, aggrieved chauvinists/supremacists, and intellectually vulnerable people putting the pieces together.
posted by Miko at 8:45 PM on February 25, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Miko at 8:45 PM on February 25, 2016 [1 favorite]
And the weird language, punctuation, hyphens, lastname/firstname reversal: that's David Wynn Miller's contribution.
posted by Miko at 8:48 PM on February 25, 2016
posted by Miko at 8:48 PM on February 25, 2016
So… when Anna von Reitz “works” on this case, what is she doing? Because no one has retained her as counsel.
posted by Going To Maine at 8:57 PM on February 25, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Going To Maine at 8:57 PM on February 25, 2016 [1 favorite]
'Ain't no one paying her, that's for sure.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 1:19 AM on February 26, 2016
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 1:19 AM on February 26, 2016
His thoughts were red thoughts: "'Ain't no one paying her, that's for sure."
But why on earth not? If you've got access to $630,000 dollars in your doppleganger account, why not write her a sight draft?
posted by Bugbread at 3:14 AM on February 26, 2016 [3 favorites]
But why on earth not? If you've got access to $630,000 dollars in your doppleganger account, why not write her a sight draft?
posted by Bugbread at 3:14 AM on February 26, 2016 [3 favorites]
Man, I'm going to miss this thread. Miko's link to the RationalWiki "Freeman on the Land" article got me to search youtube for "freeman court", and this beauty. No tazers, no dragging 45 minute long proceedings, just a short, beautiful court appearance.
posted by Bugbread at 5:46 AM on February 26, 2016
posted by Bugbread at 5:46 AM on February 26, 2016
Let the record show that although I* have, in researching this topic, imbibed their videos, it was purely for entertainment purposes only.
* I being the freeman-on-the-web achrise, not the government-created legal entity ACHRISE.
posted by achrise at 7:31 AM on February 26, 2016 [2 favorites]
* I being the freeman-on-the-web achrise, not the government-created legal entity ACHRISE.
posted by achrise at 7:31 AM on February 26, 2016 [2 favorites]
Miko: And the weird language, punctuation, hyphens, lastname/firstname reversal: that's David Wynn Miller's contribution.
MetaFilter: FOR THE FORMS OF OUR PUNCTUATIONS ARE WITH THE CLAIM OF THE USE: FULL-COLON=POSITION-LODIO-FACTS, HYPHEN=COMPOUND-FACTS =KNOWN, PERIOD=END-THOUGHT, COMMA-PAUSE, AND LOCATION-TILDES WITH THE MEANINGS AND USES OF THE COMMUNICATIONS WITH THE FULL-COLON OF THE POSITION-LODIAL-FACT-PHRASE WITH THE FACT/KNOWN-TERM OF THE POSITIONAL-LODIO-FACT-PHRASE AND WITH THE VOID OF THE NOM-DE-GUERRE = DEAD-PERSON
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 7:51 AM on February 26, 2016 [2 favorites]
MetaFilter: FOR THE FORMS OF OUR PUNCTUATIONS ARE WITH THE CLAIM OF THE USE: FULL-COLON=POSITION-LODIO-FACTS, HYPHEN=COMPOUND-FACTS =KNOWN, PERIOD=END-THOUGHT, COMMA-PAUSE, AND LOCATION-TILDES WITH THE MEANINGS AND USES OF THE COMMUNICATIONS WITH THE FULL-COLON OF THE POSITION-LODIAL-FACT-PHRASE WITH THE FACT/KNOWN-TERM OF THE POSITIONAL-LODIO-FACT-PHRASE AND WITH THE VOID OF THE NOM-DE-GUERRE = DEAD-PERSON
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 7:51 AM on February 26, 2016 [2 favorites]
One of the Ernie Tertelgte videos ended like that, too - basically, the tactic seems to be for the freeman to raise his voice and talk over the judge until the judge takes a recess, presumably to get on the horn in their chambers and look up WTF nonsense he's spewing at them, at which point the "freeman" declares authority over the court and "dismisses" his own case. Then they hightail it out of there. So what happens then? Usually, they end up with an arrest warrant or at least a charge of non-appearance for not entering a plea. That is what seems to have happened in Tertelgte's case. It's sort of schadenfreudically-amusing that what these guys represent as "victory" is really just contempt of court or failure to appear, resulting in worse charges than those they originally faced.
As I read I learn that the wingnuts perceive this as a not just an individual legal project but a large-scale battle - a battle between their fraternity of freeman against corrupting, hypocritical liars who have invaded and perverted the court system and obscured its true nature from the rest of us. There's a nuance I hadn't really perceived -it's not that they think the "Admiralty Court" is fundamentally not a legitimate structure, it's that's they think it is an actual entity that just has no jurisdiction over them, and has overreached its bounds by misrepresenting itself through the education system, in the press, and in popular understanding - not just in the US but in Canada, the UK, Australia, etc. Their stance on that is similar to the way you might perceive events if the student government body of a local college tried to charge you with something, but while doing so claimed it was a municipal or state court with jurisdiction over you - and had also convinced everyone else around you of that, and that only you had the secret information to perceive their power grab and call their bluff. So they are not only trying to get off the hook for laws they've broken or debts they owe, but they also imagine themselves as crusaders who are cleansing the confederation of states of this corrupt influence by challenging judges, lawyers, and court employees. It's a larger campaign, certainly fueled by self-interest but also a protest mentality.
Sovereign, freeman arrest a treasonous judge and seize court (UK). (Watching that, I strongly feel that had that happened in the US it would have been a bloodbath) BBC Version.
LOL Sovereign OWNS the court! I'm not sure how he can think he owned - he walked away with a plea entered and two trial dates.
Moon law on driver licensing vs. "right to travel."
Another video led me down a deep rabbit hole:
Guy stands up to judge and judge admits he has no rights, in which the "freeman" leaves court and judge explains he'll be charged with failure to appear. And he contests that. The poster then adds a comment: "The case was appealed to circuit court where I was railroaded for using " Constitutional rhetoric" as the prosecution stated. The constitution is not rhetoric. The system is corrupt and I made that plainly clear in circuit court. But I pissed off that judge before I left and seriously embarrassed the cop. It was worth every penny to see their faces. Can't wait till my next infraction."
Here is the same person in a video I found truly amazing. Apparently, he was squatting in a vacant house, and the real estate agent found him there twice and on the second occasion, called the police, at which point he produced a series of notarized documents of his own creation saying he owned the house. One of these was an "A4V" or "Accepted for Value" document which is apparently imagined to be a draft against the funds the government has deposited in your contract name as "Social Security." He is having a terrible time understanding that the documents, which the seller had of course never signed, were just offer statements and had no value as a sale document. In his mind, the sale was accepted; he says he is waiting for the funds to be transferred from the US Treasury to the seller through his A4V. Since he thinks he has an accepted sale, he considers the house to be in escrow and that he has the right to enter.
I can't completely put this together right now due to actually need to get some work done, but Fleming identified himself in court, under his lengthy freeman name, as a "Moorish-American." I looked up that movement, originating in an organization called the Moorish Science Temple, which is a quasi-religious group that has its own theory of African-American citizenship descending from North Africa and preceding (and thus exempt from) British colonialism and its outgrowths - basically, an African-American-centric SovCit group. Moorish Science was one of the streams that fed Nation of Islam and other splinter groups, etc, but recently developed a new branch that links with the white supremacist versions of SovCit in interesting ways. In this NPR story, a religious studies professor breaks it down, saying "I had assumed that nobody followed this religion anymore until about five years ago, teaching a class for the BA program at the Chicago Police Department, I had students, working cops who said, gee, this is a religion we see all the time and that somebody really needs to study because they would make traffic stops where folks would flash homemade passports and say we have diplomatic immunity. We are Moors, and therefore, we're not American citizens. We're not subject to your American laws." It looks like the Moorish-American folks have used this tactic of occupying vacant houses as sovereign space all over the country; they've been called "paperwork terrorists" for tying up courts.
This is all a very complex form of social resistance.
posted by Miko at 8:02 AM on February 26, 2016 [9 favorites]
As I read I learn that the wingnuts perceive this as a not just an individual legal project but a large-scale battle - a battle between their fraternity of freeman against corrupting, hypocritical liars who have invaded and perverted the court system and obscured its true nature from the rest of us. There's a nuance I hadn't really perceived -it's not that they think the "Admiralty Court" is fundamentally not a legitimate structure, it's that's they think it is an actual entity that just has no jurisdiction over them, and has overreached its bounds by misrepresenting itself through the education system, in the press, and in popular understanding - not just in the US but in Canada, the UK, Australia, etc. Their stance on that is similar to the way you might perceive events if the student government body of a local college tried to charge you with something, but while doing so claimed it was a municipal or state court with jurisdiction over you - and had also convinced everyone else around you of that, and that only you had the secret information to perceive their power grab and call their bluff. So they are not only trying to get off the hook for laws they've broken or debts they owe, but they also imagine themselves as crusaders who are cleansing the confederation of states of this corrupt influence by challenging judges, lawyers, and court employees. It's a larger campaign, certainly fueled by self-interest but also a protest mentality.
Sovereign, freeman arrest a treasonous judge and seize court (UK). (Watching that, I strongly feel that had that happened in the US it would have been a bloodbath) BBC Version.
LOL Sovereign OWNS the court! I'm not sure how he can think he owned - he walked away with a plea entered and two trial dates.
Moon law on driver licensing vs. "right to travel."
Another video led me down a deep rabbit hole:
Guy stands up to judge and judge admits he has no rights, in which the "freeman" leaves court and judge explains he'll be charged with failure to appear. And he contests that. The poster then adds a comment: "The case was appealed to circuit court where I was railroaded for using " Constitutional rhetoric" as the prosecution stated. The constitution is not rhetoric. The system is corrupt and I made that plainly clear in circuit court. But I pissed off that judge before I left and seriously embarrassed the cop. It was worth every penny to see their faces. Can't wait till my next infraction."
Here is the same person in a video I found truly amazing. Apparently, he was squatting in a vacant house, and the real estate agent found him there twice and on the second occasion, called the police, at which point he produced a series of notarized documents of his own creation saying he owned the house. One of these was an "A4V" or "Accepted for Value" document which is apparently imagined to be a draft against the funds the government has deposited in your contract name as "Social Security." He is having a terrible time understanding that the documents, which the seller had of course never signed, were just offer statements and had no value as a sale document. In his mind, the sale was accepted; he says he is waiting for the funds to be transferred from the US Treasury to the seller through his A4V. Since he thinks he has an accepted sale, he considers the house to be in escrow and that he has the right to enter.
I can't completely put this together right now due to actually need to get some work done, but Fleming identified himself in court, under his lengthy freeman name, as a "Moorish-American." I looked up that movement, originating in an organization called the Moorish Science Temple, which is a quasi-religious group that has its own theory of African-American citizenship descending from North Africa and preceding (and thus exempt from) British colonialism and its outgrowths - basically, an African-American-centric SovCit group. Moorish Science was one of the streams that fed Nation of Islam and other splinter groups, etc, but recently developed a new branch that links with the white supremacist versions of SovCit in interesting ways. In this NPR story, a religious studies professor breaks it down, saying "I had assumed that nobody followed this religion anymore until about five years ago, teaching a class for the BA program at the Chicago Police Department, I had students, working cops who said, gee, this is a religion we see all the time and that somebody really needs to study because they would make traffic stops where folks would flash homemade passports and say we have diplomatic immunity. We are Moors, and therefore, we're not American citizens. We're not subject to your American laws." It looks like the Moorish-American folks have used this tactic of occupying vacant houses as sovereign space all over the country; they've been called "paperwork terrorists" for tying up courts.
This is all a very complex form of social resistance.
posted by Miko at 8:02 AM on February 26, 2016 [9 favorites]
Let the record show that although I* have, in researching this topic, imbibed their videos, it was purely for entertainment purposes only.
I know! My curiosity has taken me to some rather dark places on the Web. I'm driven by an academic type of curiousity about these sorts of strains in American history, but my search history might suggest I was becoming radicalized. - Hi FBI! just browsing!
posted by Miko at 8:05 AM on February 26, 2016 [1 favorite]
I know! My curiosity has taken me to some rather dark places on the Web. I'm driven by an academic type of curiousity about these sorts of strains in American history, but my search history might suggest I was becoming radicalized. - Hi FBI! just browsing!
posted by Miko at 8:05 AM on February 26, 2016 [1 favorite]
Never mind the FBI, Miko. The Cabal would like a word with you.
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 8:10 AM on February 26, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 8:10 AM on February 26, 2016 [2 favorites]
There is no Cabal.
posted by Floydd at 8:27 AM on February 26, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Floydd at 8:27 AM on February 26, 2016 [1 favorite]
The Cabal doesn't exist above the high water mark of Pikes Peak. Below 14,115 feet, the entity operates as The Cabal, Inc.
posted by mochapickle at 8:30 AM on February 26, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by mochapickle at 8:30 AM on February 26, 2016 [5 favorites]
Guys, we talked at the last meeting about some pretty specific guidelines for when and how to discuss Cabal details and I feel like some of you just weren't listening at all.
posted by cortex at 8:38 AM on February 26, 2016 [16 favorites]
posted by cortex at 8:38 AM on February 26, 2016 [16 favorites]
I am free from all of this, but it is cold on the top of Denali.
posted by Oyéah at 8:40 AM on February 26, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Oyéah at 8:40 AM on February 26, 2016 [1 favorite]
I feel like some of you just weren't listening at all.
Should I sign up for one of your Cabal seminars? Just $450, same as in town.
So I had two thoughts in transit from where I was to where I am:
The existence of the Moorish Science movement - going back to the 20s - makes me think really a lot about where this trope of "illegitimate government" comes from. Could it be, possibly, that the white-supremacist SovCit movement actually has appropriated this notion from its origin in black culture? Maybe through the KKK and its offshoots, which of course was operating at the same time and would have been aware of some of this rhetoric? And how did life under slavery and Jim Crow contribute to the development of this notion of being governed by people whose authority to control you truly was illegitimate?
Second, is it possible the strain also is connected to the long struggle for the sovereignty of Native American nations? I have even greater respect for the leaders who pushed for the recognition of the legitimacy of their own nations - like formerly enslaved people they actually had to take on an illegitimate government and wrest recognition from them, and it took centuries. Even today, their sovereign powers are limited by treaty concessions demanded as trade-offs for that nation-to-nation relationship, but they are recognized as nations, if dependent ones.
So it's interesting to think that models and origins for this white-guy movement may have originated in resistance to political oppression by truly illegitimate governmental models. But I don't know, that might be a stretch. Does anyone know of any older such movements to claim exemption from a citizenship imposed by a governmental authority? This starts to get into questions about nation-state history and when citizenship began, so it might be too big to fit into this theory, but interesting anyway.
posted by Miko at 8:49 AM on February 26, 2016 [1 favorite]
Should I sign up for one of your Cabal seminars? Just $450, same as in town.
So I had two thoughts in transit from where I was to where I am:
The existence of the Moorish Science movement - going back to the 20s - makes me think really a lot about where this trope of "illegitimate government" comes from. Could it be, possibly, that the white-supremacist SovCit movement actually has appropriated this notion from its origin in black culture? Maybe through the KKK and its offshoots, which of course was operating at the same time and would have been aware of some of this rhetoric? And how did life under slavery and Jim Crow contribute to the development of this notion of being governed by people whose authority to control you truly was illegitimate?
Second, is it possible the strain also is connected to the long struggle for the sovereignty of Native American nations? I have even greater respect for the leaders who pushed for the recognition of the legitimacy of their own nations - like formerly enslaved people they actually had to take on an illegitimate government and wrest recognition from them, and it took centuries. Even today, their sovereign powers are limited by treaty concessions demanded as trade-offs for that nation-to-nation relationship, but they are recognized as nations, if dependent ones.
So it's interesting to think that models and origins for this white-guy movement may have originated in resistance to political oppression by truly illegitimate governmental models. But I don't know, that might be a stretch. Does anyone know of any older such movements to claim exemption from a citizenship imposed by a governmental authority? This starts to get into questions about nation-state history and when citizenship began, so it might be too big to fit into this theory, but interesting anyway.
posted by Miko at 8:49 AM on February 26, 2016 [1 favorite]
If it didn't involve guns and children and all that real-world stuff, I would be fascinated by this apparently consensual delusion that has created for itself a whole body of freako Moon Law statutory language.
posted by rhizome at 11:20 AM on February 26, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by rhizome at 11:20 AM on February 26, 2016 [2 favorites]
Should I sign up for one of your Cabal seminars? Just $450, same as in town on the moon.
FTFY
posted by rhizome at 11:21 AM on February 26, 2016 [1 favorite]
FTFY
posted by rhizome at 11:21 AM on February 26, 2016 [1 favorite]
Second, is it possible the strain also is connected to the long struggle for the sovereignty of Native American nations? I have even greater respect for the leaders who pushed for the recognition of the legitimacy of their own nations - like formerly enslaved people they actually had to take on an illegitimate government and wrest recognition from them, and it took centuries. Even today, their sovereign powers are limited by treaty concessions demanded as trade-offs for that nation-to-nation relationship, but they are recognized as nations, if dependent ones.
It was about 10 years ago, the details are fuzzy and I didn't want to bring it up in this or other threads for fear of equating it too much with the the main types of people we've been talking about but I did end up going to a court hearing with some First Nations folks who seemed to be using some of this sort of freeman, sov cit way of thinking. At least some of what I recall seems similar but as it was explained to me a lot was based on things in specific treaties and since it is in Canada agreements with the British Crown. As far I understand it there are those that do believe that since many of the treaties were signed under that jurisdiction and not with "Canada" so to speak there are issues.
I definitely remember them explaining 'right to travel' at one point. I wish I could remember more or at least took notes because it was really interesting. I wish I had paid more attention but at the time it was a situation that sorta fell into with a 'sure I'll tag along, I have nothing better to do today' and was all 'woah this is totally different and not what I was expecting'. I do recall them asking the RCMP officer to put on his hat because something, something treaty something, not legitimate without full uniform something. It was super weird but the officer did go get his hat and put it on.
I also do know for certain that there are some First Nations People that don't consider themselves citizens in the same way that we do. What they consider themselves varies from person to person as well as from community to community as each has it's own specific history and agreements with Canada as a state.
So to answer your question about whether there's a connection it could be possible as I have seen and heard first hand stuff that sounds similar. No idea the history of it though or which came first.
posted by Jalliah at 2:36 PM on February 26, 2016 [1 favorite]
It was about 10 years ago, the details are fuzzy and I didn't want to bring it up in this or other threads for fear of equating it too much with the the main types of people we've been talking about but I did end up going to a court hearing with some First Nations folks who seemed to be using some of this sort of freeman, sov cit way of thinking. At least some of what I recall seems similar but as it was explained to me a lot was based on things in specific treaties and since it is in Canada agreements with the British Crown. As far I understand it there are those that do believe that since many of the treaties were signed under that jurisdiction and not with "Canada" so to speak there are issues.
I definitely remember them explaining 'right to travel' at one point. I wish I could remember more or at least took notes because it was really interesting. I wish I had paid more attention but at the time it was a situation that sorta fell into with a 'sure I'll tag along, I have nothing better to do today' and was all 'woah this is totally different and not what I was expecting'. I do recall them asking the RCMP officer to put on his hat because something, something treaty something, not legitimate without full uniform something. It was super weird but the officer did go get his hat and put it on.
I also do know for certain that there are some First Nations People that don't consider themselves citizens in the same way that we do. What they consider themselves varies from person to person as well as from community to community as each has it's own specific history and agreements with Canada as a state.
So to answer your question about whether there's a connection it could be possible as I have seen and heard first hand stuff that sounds similar. No idea the history of it though or which came first.
posted by Jalliah at 2:36 PM on February 26, 2016 [1 favorite]
Miko: "Could it be, possibly, that the white-supremacist SovCit movement actually has appropriated this notion from its origin in black culture? Second, is it possible the strain also is connected to the long struggle for the sovereignty of Native American nations?"
I doubt it, on both counts. The desire to say "your laws don't apply to me because of Legal Minutiae of Treaty X" is a fairly common phenomenon that spontaneously arises pretty much everywhere. It's like "this food tastes good, let's try deep-frying it", which happens in every culture. Now, stuff like the "there is the flesh-and-blood you and then there is the legal strawman" thing or "there are no laws, only contracts, and the court tries to trick you into thinking those contracts are laws" thing or "when you are born money is put into a secret account in your name" thing, those are all unique enough that if they're shared by the Moorish Science or First Nations sovereigns or the like I think you could conclude that there is cross-appropriation, but "your government is illegitimate because of the Magna Carta / Constitution / Articles of Divestment / whatever" thing is, I believe, just parallel evolution.
posted by Bugbread at 3:33 PM on February 26, 2016
I doubt it, on both counts. The desire to say "your laws don't apply to me because of Legal Minutiae of Treaty X" is a fairly common phenomenon that spontaneously arises pretty much everywhere. It's like "this food tastes good, let's try deep-frying it", which happens in every culture. Now, stuff like the "there is the flesh-and-blood you and then there is the legal strawman" thing or "there are no laws, only contracts, and the court tries to trick you into thinking those contracts are laws" thing or "when you are born money is put into a secret account in your name" thing, those are all unique enough that if they're shared by the Moorish Science or First Nations sovereigns or the like I think you could conclude that there is cross-appropriation, but "your government is illegitimate because of the Magna Carta / Constitution / Articles of Divestment / whatever" thing is, I believe, just parallel evolution.
posted by Bugbread at 3:33 PM on February 26, 2016
Stopped-clock David Fry had a point about leaking nuclear power plant? Am I remembering his rant correctly?
posted by achrise at 5:01 PM on February 26, 2016
posted by achrise at 5:01 PM on February 26, 2016
I'm reasonably sure Fry was talking about Fukushima, there.
posted by Archelaus at 5:17 PM on February 26, 2016
posted by Archelaus at 5:17 PM on February 26, 2016
Ah, it was Indian Point. The news of the contamination risk came out during the last days of the Standoff.
posted by mochapickle at 7:00 PM on February 26, 2016
posted by mochapickle at 7:00 PM on February 26, 2016
So noted. I was just remembering the "shut up and eat your Fukushima" bit that confused everyone in one of the previous two threads.
posted by Archelaus at 7:09 PM on February 26, 2016
posted by Archelaus at 7:09 PM on February 26, 2016
Thanks for your perspectives, folks. Yeah, the First Nations thing is really interesting. I've been involved with some Native nations (as you hear them called in the US) through work, and in fact these protocols become really important. There are also a lot of actual treaties between various forms of governments in the US and Canada with Native nations that do require things like, for instance, an annual transfer of muslin cloth, or particular seasonal fishing rights or land access, and stuff like that. These become very mannered exchanges. And really, quite a bit of it seems completely fair - there are treaties the governments have sworn to that then they've totally broken and invalidated, and so it makes sense for those Native nations to oppose following through on the agreements they laid out, even on minutiae-type grounds.
But I suspect you're right, Bugbread, that these are the types of things that happen any time there are conflicts over who has jurisdiction over whom, and the first recourse is to hash it out with words, in courts and negotations using whatever structures are mutually understood to be available, rather than flat-out go to war.
posted by Miko at 8:09 PM on February 26, 2016 [1 favorite]
But I suspect you're right, Bugbread, that these are the types of things that happen any time there are conflicts over who has jurisdiction over whom, and the first recourse is to hash it out with words, in courts and negotations using whatever structures are mutually understood to be available, rather than flat-out go to war.
posted by Miko at 8:09 PM on February 26, 2016 [1 favorite]
Apologies if this was linked earlier in the thread and I just missed it, but NPR's Planet Money did a whole show on a guy who didn't pay taxes based on a sovereign citizen argument (he even set up a trust). Spoiler: he didn't actually sound crazy but things really started to go wrong for him when the lawyer who'd told him it could work, and who'd then been writing all the letters in response to the IRS, died.
posted by fedward at 7:58 AM on February 27, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by fedward at 7:58 AM on February 27, 2016 [2 favorites]
Hey, they released the invisible man, Jeff Banta, since it appears he is just a carpenter from Reno, who was too afraid to move off the refuge, he has family to stay with. OK, maybe life will return to normal for some of these people.
posted by Oyéah at 11:28 AM on February 27, 2016
posted by Oyéah at 11:28 AM on February 27, 2016
Oh, this is fantastic. The fake "common law grand jury" is still doing whatever they're doing, and the fake judge put out a call for fake US Marshals. Apparently all you have to do is call a guy and swear an oath to moon law.
LAWFUL MARSHALLS FOR THE CONTINENTAL uNITED STATES of AMERICA WANTED!!
It seems that there is some confusion going on, so let me try and clear it up. Anyone wanting to be a lawful Marshall with a sworn oath to the original constitution can be sworn in NOW!! We are looking for thousands of honorable men and women that are willing to lawfully and Peacefully Uphold the Constitution.
This is a once in a life time opportunity! We can all be moon law marshals!
posted by T.D. Strange at 12:01 PM on February 27, 2016
LAWFUL MARSHALLS FOR THE CONTINENTAL uNITED STATES of AMERICA WANTED!!
It seems that there is some confusion going on, so let me try and clear it up. Anyone wanting to be a lawful Marshall with a sworn oath to the original constitution can be sworn in NOW!! We are looking for thousands of honorable men and women that are willing to lawfully and Peacefully Uphold the Constitution.
This is a once in a life time opportunity! We can all be moon law marshals!
posted by T.D. Strange at 12:01 PM on February 27, 2016
Geez, I dunno, at least an internet moon priesthood lets you officiate your friends’ wedding. What does an internet moon marshalship get you?
posted by nicepersonality at 12:09 PM on February 27, 2016
posted by nicepersonality at 12:09 PM on February 27, 2016
I'd be more impressed by their moon law marshals if they could spell the word.
posted by Archelaus at 12:12 PM on February 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Archelaus at 12:12 PM on February 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
Are there badges? I don't care if it's spelled right.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 1:05 PM on February 27, 2016
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 1:05 PM on February 27, 2016
Under moon law you all get official budgies. These 'badges' you speak of are a legacy of the British regency subversion of the law enforcement corporation.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 1:19 PM on February 27, 2016 [6 favorites]
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 1:19 PM on February 27, 2016 [6 favorites]
I can't speak to any connection to other cultures, but as an anecdote, I have a friend who stumbled across the SovCit movement as he was researching his geneology. It seems he wanted to prove that he has a certain percentage of native american blood so that he can claim government benefits. Somehow that led him to freeman BS and from there to SovCit. It could be a co-incidence.
posted by ambulocetus at 3:01 PM on February 27, 2016
posted by ambulocetus at 3:01 PM on February 27, 2016
I think it's time for a Meta-CLGJ, so we can start indictin' people and issuing powerful papers and such.
posted by octobersurprise at 3:03 PM on February 27, 2016
posted by octobersurprise at 3:03 PM on February 27, 2016
Under moon law you all get official budgies. These 'badges' you speak of are a legacy of the British regency subversion of the law enforcement corporation.
People scoff, but a riled-up pack of budgerigars can skeletonize a human ear in minutes.
posted by sebastienbailard at 4:45 PM on February 27, 2016
People scoff, but a riled-up pack of budgerigars can skeletonize a human ear in minutes.
posted by sebastienbailard at 4:45 PM on February 27, 2016
Them birds ain't doin much damage but for giving those leaves a good gumming.
posted by rhizome at 5:24 PM on February 27, 2016
posted by rhizome at 5:24 PM on February 27, 2016
We can all be moon law marshals!
That is pretty tempting. If only I were the gonzo but super-savvy Rolling Stone journalist like I wanted to be when I was in high school. I'd be all over that assignment.
posted by Miko at 10:04 PM on February 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
That is pretty tempting. If only I were the gonzo but super-savvy Rolling Stone journalist like I wanted to be when I was in high school. I'd be all over that assignment.
posted by Miko at 10:04 PM on February 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
Can I be a Moon Law Marshal? Or, as I am in the UK, and we own all your courts, do I get to be a judge? Or a barrister? I could be a British inverse Atticus Finch, standing up for all the moon law stuff and the SovCits.
Also, is Moon Law a Mefi term, or is it widely used?
Any news on the sentencing and what's happening with the defendants? Are they still in confinement, or have they been released? What about the Pacific Patriots? Are they still crusading?
How are Anna M. Riezinger von Reitz and the gang getting along with getting the Bundy's and their gang out of jail?
posted by marienbad at 11:22 PM on February 27, 2016
Also, is Moon Law a Mefi term, or is it widely used?
Any news on the sentencing and what's happening with the defendants? Are they still in confinement, or have they been released? What about the Pacific Patriots? Are they still crusading?
How are Anna M. Riezinger von Reitz and the gang getting along with getting the Bundy's and their gang out of jail?
posted by marienbad at 11:22 PM on February 27, 2016
Skimming a local newspaper, no big news.
posted by sebastienbailard at 11:33 PM on February 27, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by sebastienbailard at 11:33 PM on February 27, 2016 [2 favorites]
Here's the new Cliven Bundy drinking game.
Watch this interview with him.
Drink every time he says "renewable resource".
Take an activated charcoal pill every time he makes a patently false statement about the Constitution, Federal land ownership, or water rights.
Take a nibble of cheese toast every time he butchers the history of the nation, the state or the area; every time he declares you gain ownership of anything by improving it; or when he makes a fool of himself describing a race of people he "loves".
I had to stop thirty-seven and a half minutes in because I was drunk, full and depressed.
posted by Seamus at 8:45 PM on February 28, 2016 [1 favorite]
Watch this interview with him.
Drink every time he says "renewable resource".
Take an activated charcoal pill every time he makes a patently false statement about the Constitution, Federal land ownership, or water rights.
Take a nibble of cheese toast every time he butchers the history of the nation, the state or the area; every time he declares you gain ownership of anything by improving it; or when he makes a fool of himself describing a race of people he "loves".
I had to stop thirty-seven and a half minutes in because I was drunk, full and depressed.
posted by Seamus at 8:45 PM on February 28, 2016 [1 favorite]
Oh, this video, Seamus. I'm ill.
Highly entertaining profile on interviewer James Yeager, who apparently has an IQ of 300.
posted by mochapickle at 3:32 AM on February 29, 2016
Highly entertaining profile on interviewer James Yeager, who apparently has an IQ of 300.
posted by mochapickle at 3:32 AM on February 29, 2016
There's a whole rabbit hole! Seriously, I can't stop laughing at this video he made for reality tv.
posted by mochapickle at 3:40 AM on February 29, 2016
posted by mochapickle at 3:40 AM on February 29, 2016
My god, mochapickle!
That profile of Yeager is amazing!
"Scientists joked that "if James Yeager was a computer, he would pass the Turing Test" - a test to measure a machines intelligence, against human intelligence."
How could CNN have known that their citizen reporting platform would be used for such amazingly crafted satire. I'm sure they were merely expecting a flood of boob and poop stories.
posted by Seamus at 6:34 AM on February 29, 2016 [1 favorite]
That profile of Yeager is amazing!
"Scientists joked that "if James Yeager was a computer, he would pass the Turing Test" - a test to measure a machines intelligence, against human intelligence."
How could CNN have known that their citizen reporting platform would be used for such amazingly crafted satire. I'm sure they were merely expecting a flood of boob and poop stories.
posted by Seamus at 6:34 AM on February 29, 2016 [1 favorite]
mochapickle: "Highly entertaining profile on interviewer James Yeager, who apparently has an IQ of 300."
Oh, man, that has to be someone taking the piss. It reads as a hagiography for the most part, and then it starts sprinkling in negatives without countering them, very un-hagiographically.
Also, this is the first time I have seen CNN's iReports, and for a second I was really thrown for a loop. "I know people say CNN has gone down in quality since I last saw it in the 1990s, but this is a totally different level of bad" -- and then I saw to the left of the article "About this iReport - Not verified by CNN".
And that Turing test line is beautiful.
posted by Bugbread at 6:37 AM on February 29, 2016 [3 favorites]
Oh, man, that has to be someone taking the piss. It reads as a hagiography for the most part, and then it starts sprinkling in negatives without countering them, very un-hagiographically.
Also, this is the first time I have seen CNN's iReports, and for a second I was really thrown for a loop. "I know people say CNN has gone down in quality since I last saw it in the 1990s, but this is a totally different level of bad" -- and then I saw to the left of the article "About this iReport - Not verified by CNN".
And that Turing test line is beautiful.
posted by Bugbread at 6:37 AM on February 29, 2016 [3 favorites]
And that reality TV . . . thing. Priceless!
"I have a years worth of food in my house."
"I've been telling my daughters for years to not tell anyone about our food. When they ask why, I tell them 'Do you want me to shoot your friends in the face?'"
Anyone who denies that he is the smartest man ON THE PLANET has to be a CIA commuislamofascisvegetarlattesipmexican plant.
posted by Seamus at 6:38 AM on February 29, 2016
"I have a years worth of food in my house."
Anyone who denies that he is the smartest man ON THE PLANET has to be a CIA commuislamofascisvegetarlattesipmexican plant.
posted by Seamus at 6:38 AM on February 29, 2016
It's sort of interesting to think about how these folks that are certain that when the revolution comes, they're going to be "King" and will be able to survive indefinitely and defend a compound against desperate or vengeful opponents, can reconcile their self-assessments with the fact that the regular, non-combat world does not especially recognize them for judgment or leadership. They are not that successful in society. Why would they successfully be able to command and hold a compound? Why is it this fantasy version of life success they've decided they're fit for, when they can't do much effectively outside this arena?
There are so many problems with this "IQ of 300" business, including that no defined IQ scale has specified any differentiating gradients above 175. But beyond that, I decided to check out the article citations, and found something interesting. One citation is to the "World Genius Directory" that has a welcome page featuring a Rubik's Cube graphic and leads you to a psychic's shill page. Nothing pertaining to Yaeger. Then there's Sigma Society, which, taken with psiq, indicates that the cult of the thooper-genius is almost as full of arcane texts and elaborated systems as that of the freeman-on-the-land. Another is to a work called "Creativity in the Origin of Genius," which does not seem to exist as a publication; it's almost a Googlewhack except for the citation in the article itself. More interesting even is the citation for "Media Books'" "Get on the Intellectual Bus," which doesn't produce new results, but "Get on the Bus - Issue 321 - Media Books" shows up as a fake/example citation in a number of online automated-essay-writing sites. Similarly, "Woodpecker - Serving the Gifted" results in no new hits, but "Woodpecker - Serving the Great" brought me to a few delightful places like Stormfront, where, apparently, along with other "insomniac games," people were encouraging each other to use an online automated essay generator to create the essays that include these adaptable citations and follow the same general structure - Markov-style. So, it would seem that "Tactical Man," the author here, just used an essay generator to create the basis for this essay.
posted by Miko at 10:31 AM on February 29, 2016 [3 favorites]
There are so many problems with this "IQ of 300" business, including that no defined IQ scale has specified any differentiating gradients above 175. But beyond that, I decided to check out the article citations, and found something interesting. One citation is to the "World Genius Directory" that has a welcome page featuring a Rubik's Cube graphic and leads you to a psychic's shill page. Nothing pertaining to Yaeger. Then there's Sigma Society, which, taken with psiq, indicates that the cult of the thooper-genius is almost as full of arcane texts and elaborated systems as that of the freeman-on-the-land. Another is to a work called "Creativity in the Origin of Genius," which does not seem to exist as a publication; it's almost a Googlewhack except for the citation in the article itself. More interesting even is the citation for "Media Books'" "Get on the Intellectual Bus," which doesn't produce new results, but "Get on the Bus - Issue 321 - Media Books" shows up as a fake/example citation in a number of online automated-essay-writing sites. Similarly, "Woodpecker - Serving the Gifted" results in no new hits, but "Woodpecker - Serving the Great" brought me to a few delightful places like Stormfront, where, apparently, along with other "insomniac games," people were encouraging each other to use an online automated essay generator to create the essays that include these adaptable citations and follow the same general structure - Markov-style. So, it would seem that "Tactical Man," the author here, just used an essay generator to create the basis for this essay.
posted by Miko at 10:31 AM on February 29, 2016 [3 favorites]
Tactical Man = Yeager himself
Article = Yeager making some sort of attempt to settle a bet?
More hyperbole: Yeager can bench press 18,000 pounds
Yeager was also fired as Police Chief of a two-person department in nearby Big Sandy. Seems like the butt stock of an assault rifle fits very neatly into the chip on one's shoulder. Turns out Yeager's from a county or two over from where my whole family is from. I had an uncle who kept a small ranch out near Big Sandy for a while. It's weird to hear the accent of that region in the context of the Bundys.
And the whole Yeager thing feels like a derail until you realize people like him are at the heart of this movement: In response to assault rifle limitations, Yeager earnestly claimed that he was "going to start killing people" if the government went "one inch further" in its gun restrictions—a tirade that prompted Tennessee to suspend his handgun carry permit. (Mother Jones)
posted by mochapickle at 10:57 AM on February 29, 2016 [5 favorites]
Article = Yeager making some sort of attempt to settle a bet?
More hyperbole: Yeager can bench press 18,000 pounds
Yeager was also fired as Police Chief of a two-person department in nearby Big Sandy. Seems like the butt stock of an assault rifle fits very neatly into the chip on one's shoulder. Turns out Yeager's from a county or two over from where my whole family is from. I had an uncle who kept a small ranch out near Big Sandy for a while. It's weird to hear the accent of that region in the context of the Bundys.
And the whole Yeager thing feels like a derail until you realize people like him are at the heart of this movement: In response to assault rifle limitations, Yeager earnestly claimed that he was "going to start killing people" if the government went "one inch further" in its gun restrictions—a tirade that prompted Tennessee to suspend his handgun carry permit. (Mother Jones)
posted by mochapickle at 10:57 AM on February 29, 2016 [5 favorites]
More hyperbole:
Weird, it's basically a bunch of Chuck Norris jokes. I get the sense he's a polarizing dude.
posted by Miko at 11:46 AM on February 29, 2016 [1 favorite]
Weird, it's basically a bunch of Chuck Norris jokes. I get the sense he's a polarizing dude.
posted by Miko at 11:46 AM on February 29, 2016 [1 favorite]
So Yeager is the "this dude," in, "this dude tole me I dint need to listen to no yellow fringe flag?"
posted by rhizome at 11:51 AM on February 29, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by rhizome at 11:51 AM on February 29, 2016 [1 favorite]
I get the sense he's a polarizing dude.
Yeah, and definitely extreme. He was fired because he wanted to build a SWAT team of all things. And Big Sandy is... well, it's tiny. Just 500 people and it's kind of a sleepy place with not much use for that kind of firepower. My uncle once had his ATV stolen when he'd left it idling near the road and someone took off with it. The police found it a couple of hours later when they found the thief joyriding it up and down the highway with a six-pack.
This Yeager dude seems like someone not unlike the standoff guys: Willing to use the flimsiest excuse to literally bring out the big guns and exert power, all under the guise of the first amendment.
posted by mochapickle at 11:59 AM on February 29, 2016 [4 favorites]
Yeah, and definitely extreme. He was fired because he wanted to build a SWAT team of all things. And Big Sandy is... well, it's tiny. Just 500 people and it's kind of a sleepy place with not much use for that kind of firepower. My uncle once had his ATV stolen when he'd left it idling near the road and someone took off with it. The police found it a couple of hours later when they found the thief joyriding it up and down the highway with a six-pack.
This Yeager dude seems like someone not unlike the standoff guys: Willing to use the flimsiest excuse to literally bring out the big guns and exert power, all under the guise of the first amendment.
posted by mochapickle at 11:59 AM on February 29, 2016 [4 favorites]
"I'm prepared for anything..." except sudden-onset gluten intolerance. That's a lot of boxes of wheat.
posted by The corpse in the library at 12:19 PM on February 29, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by The corpse in the library at 12:19 PM on February 29, 2016 [1 favorite]
This, Ferguson, everywhere: need to take a hard look at hiring practices for law enforcement.
posted by Trochanter at 12:46 PM on February 29, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by Trochanter at 12:46 PM on February 29, 2016 [5 favorites]
Santelli granted release to a halfway house. Which means he'll be shipped to Nevada for a similar detention hearing on those much more serious charges.
posted by T.D. Strange at 4:44 PM on February 29, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by T.D. Strange at 4:44 PM on February 29, 2016 [1 favorite]
mochapickle: "Tactical Man = Yeager himself"
No way. The article is making fun of Yeager. (If it were Yeager he would either have omitted the "known for his purported cowardice", "known to suffer from a variety of mental illnesses", and "what he has stated previously is continually contradicted" parts, or put in comebacks (there kinda is one for the "mentally illnesses" part, but the rest is just left out there)).
posted by Bugbread at 6:35 PM on February 29, 2016
No way. The article is making fun of Yeager. (If it were Yeager he would either have omitted the "known for his purported cowardice", "known to suffer from a variety of mental illnesses", and "what he has stated previously is continually contradicted" parts, or put in comebacks (there kinda is one for the "mentally illnesses" part, but the rest is just left out there)).
posted by Bugbread at 6:35 PM on February 29, 2016
The fact that there were moon lawyers on the Conspirasea cruise should not be ignored.
posted by valkane at 11:33 AM on March 1, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by valkane at 11:33 AM on March 1, 2016 [3 favorites]
Oregon Standoff: Workers Find Mess Left Behind by Occupiers.
posted by suelac at 7:23 PM on March 1, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by suelac at 7:23 PM on March 1, 2016 [2 favorites]
Huh
"The occupiers or their agents had until Tuesday to reclaim any of that property. Several showed up in recent days to get their cars, trucks and ATVs. Still, one car was left unclaimed and law enforcement officers with the Fish & Wildlife Service will begin tagging and storing other property left behind.
It will be turned over to anyone who can prove ownership."
posted by OmieWise at 6:28 AM on March 2, 2016
"The occupiers or their agents had until Tuesday to reclaim any of that property. Several showed up in recent days to get their cars, trucks and ATVs. Still, one car was left unclaimed and law enforcement officers with the Fish & Wildlife Service will begin tagging and storing other property left behind.
It will be turned over to anyone who can prove ownership."
posted by OmieWise at 6:28 AM on March 2, 2016
BBC World Service (radio): America’s Angry Cowboys
posted by XMLicious at 3:13 AM on March 3, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by XMLicious at 3:13 AM on March 3, 2016 [1 favorite]
The new face of the patriot movement is a Kansas-raised teenager
The road goes on forever and the grift it never ends ...
(Let the record show that I called it. *\0/*)
posted by octobersurprise at 7:02 AM on March 3, 2016 [2 favorites]
The road goes on forever and the grift it never ends ...
(Let the record show that I called it. *\0/*)
posted by octobersurprise at 7:02 AM on March 3, 2016 [2 favorites]
The FBI dropped another hammer, arresting the remaining Bundy boys (Mel and Dave), the bridge snipers (Eric Parker and Steve Stewart), and Jerry Delemus, co-chair of Veterans for Trump, plus 10 or so blacked out names yet to be arrested. I am especially glad to see the snipers go down, it just fucking pissed me off that they have been walking around free for nearly two years.
posted by tavella at 12:52 PM on March 3, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by tavella at 12:52 PM on March 3, 2016 [5 favorites]
The Bundy Ranch is losing their everlovin' shit over on facebeek.
Bundy Ranchposted by octobersurprise at 3:01 PM on March 3, 2016
16 mins ·
DAVEY BUNDY HAS BEEN ARRESTED!
HIS LOCAL COUNTY SHERIFF IS A COWARD AND IS HIDING UNDER HIS DESK. SHERIFF DEKKER TOLD DAVEYS WIFE THAT THE FBI TRUMPS HIS JURISDICTION. HE OBVIOUSLY DOSNT UNDERSTAND THE CONSTITUTION.
Attached is a reminder of what these thugs have already done to Davey in the past.
WAKE UP AMERICA!
Arrested With Children. Best new show of the season.
posted by octobersurprise at 3:07 PM on March 3, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by octobersurprise at 3:07 PM on March 3, 2016 [2 favorites]
SHERIFF DEKKER TOLD DAVEYS WIFE THAT THE FBI TRUMPS HIS JURISDICTION
Have none of these people EVER seen a police procedural?
posted by suelac at 3:08 PM on March 3, 2016 [4 favorites]
Have none of these people EVER seen a police procedural?
posted by suelac at 3:08 PM on March 3, 2016 [4 favorites]
Have none of these people EVER seen a police procedural?
It's just that in their moon-law interpretation of things, the Sheriff trumps the authority of everyone else. That this is not so in actual practice continually astounds and outrages them, because it means we are not playing according to their moon-rules.
posted by Archelaus at 3:24 PM on March 3, 2016 [1 favorite]
It's just that in their moon-law interpretation of things, the Sheriff trumps the authority of everyone else. That this is not so in actual practice continually astounds and outrages them, because it means we are not playing according to their moon-rules.
posted by Archelaus at 3:24 PM on March 3, 2016 [1 favorite]
Sure, UNCONSTITUTIONAL police procedurals
posted by OmieWise at 3:25 PM on March 3, 2016 [7 favorites]
posted by OmieWise at 3:25 PM on March 3, 2016 [7 favorites]
Or as my household refers to them, "Railroaders vs. patsies."
posted by rhizome at 3:54 PM on March 3, 2016
posted by rhizome at 3:54 PM on March 3, 2016
suelac: "Have none of these people EVER seen a police procedural?"
I think it's more outrage than surprise. It's like the moon law version of how normal people react when they find out a policeman has gotten away with murder or a politician has gotten away with bribery or the like; you go all caps, but it doesn't mean you are surprised, just incensed.
posted by Bugbread at 4:37 PM on March 3, 2016
I think it's more outrage than surprise. It's like the moon law version of how normal people react when they find out a policeman has gotten away with murder or a politician has gotten away with bribery or the like; you go all caps, but it doesn't mean you are surprised, just incensed.
posted by Bugbread at 4:37 PM on March 3, 2016
Sure, UNCONSTITUTIONAL police procedurals
Can someone pretty please write an episode of Moon Law & Order? I would do it myself but all I know is the logo and the "doink doink" sound.
posted by compartment at 8:13 PM on March 3, 2016 [8 favorites]
Can someone pretty please write an episode of Moon Law & Order? I would do it myself but all I know is the logo and the "doink doink" sound.
posted by compartment at 8:13 PM on March 3, 2016 [8 favorites]
Hell yeah, Ice T explaining moon law.
posted by ctmf at 8:53 PM on March 3, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by ctmf at 8:53 PM on March 3, 2016 [3 favorites]
Can someone pretty please write an episode of Moon Law & Order? I would do it myself but all I know is the logo and the "doink doink" sound.
In the Criminal Justice System the people are oppressed by two separate, yet equally heinous groups. The corrupt ersatz 'police' who 'investigate' 'crime' WITHOUT CONSTITUTIONAL BASIS and the false 'District Attorneys' (in fact agents of the British Association Regency) who prosecute the good and dedicated TRUE AMERICAN patriots.
These are their stories.
*DOINK DOINK*
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 9:02 PM on March 3, 2016 [16 favorites]
These are their stories.
*DOINK DOINK*
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 9:02 PM on March 3, 2016 [16 favorites]
Each episode would be like thirty seconds long:
Judge: "John of the family Carver, you have been invited to this court on charges of assault and battery."
John: "I did not agree to a contract that stated I would not attack the victim, and I choose not to engage in a contract with this court."
Judge: "Very well, case dismissed."
posted by Bugbread at 9:09 PM on March 3, 2016 [12 favorites]
Judge: "John of the family Carver, you have been invited to this court on charges of assault and battery."
John: "I did not agree to a contract that stated I would not attack the victim, and I choose not to engage in a contract with this court."
Judge: "Very well, case dismissed."
posted by Bugbread at 9:09 PM on March 3, 2016 [12 favorites]
It's too bad judges can't lie to the sovcit types just to fuck with them.
Soviet: "I do not wish to create joinder with you"
Judge: "Too late. When you sat in that chair you agreed to create joinder. Look on the bottom of it."
* finds yellow sticky labeled "::Chair of: JOINDER::" *
Judge: Furthermore, although I initially lacked any jurisdiction over you, you gave me that power by addressing me as "your honor"! Hahahaha!
posted by ctmf at 9:58 PM on March 3, 2016 [18 favorites]
Soviet: "I do not wish to create joinder with you"
Judge: "Too late. When you sat in that chair you agreed to create joinder. Look on the bottom of it."
* finds yellow sticky labeled "::Chair of: JOINDER::" *
Judge: Furthermore, although I initially lacked any jurisdiction over you, you gave me that power by addressing me as "your honor"! Hahahaha!
posted by ctmf at 9:58 PM on March 3, 2016 [18 favorites]
You know, a long time ago, back when the British were in control, the British had the biggest, strongest army in the world. They were unstoppable. But WE THE PEOPLE conquered that biggest army. We took over that biggest army. And that's what we need to do now.You know what this means? Hamilton crossover!
posted by running order squabble fest at 4:50 PM on March 4, 2016 [1 favorite]
Arden....has a long way to go.
posted by Miko at 6:29 PM on March 4, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Miko at 6:29 PM on March 4, 2016 [1 favorite]
Arden's speaking points:
1. Wake up; the Bundys are in jail
2. Read the scripture; the Lord is returning
3. The government has taken over
4. When the British were here, Americans rose up and fought them
5. Everything comes out of the ground; who controls the land controls everything
6. It's not about the cows
7. The government must not take our future and our "born rights"
8. Patriarchal bussing? says Arden will be a leader in the last day; the last day is very close
9. We The People can beat the biggest army in the world by coming together
10. Right now they're coming after us; you are next
All punctuated by sniffles. Arden is just 17.
posted by mochapickle at 7:02 PM on March 4, 2016 [1 favorite]
1. Wake up; the Bundys are in jail
2. Read the scripture; the Lord is returning
3. The government has taken over
4. When the British were here, Americans rose up and fought them
5. Everything comes out of the ground; who controls the land controls everything
6. It's not about the cows
7. The government must not take our future and our "born rights"
8. Patriarchal bussing? says Arden will be a leader in the last day; the last day is very close
9. We The People can beat the biggest army in the world by coming together
10. Right now they're coming after us; you are next
All punctuated by sniffles. Arden is just 17.
posted by mochapickle at 7:02 PM on March 4, 2016 [1 favorite]
One thing he certainly is is really sheltered. Which makes me think about the general scope of life experience of all of his family.
Patriarchal bussing
I think it's patriarchal blessing. Interesting to read about.
He seems pretty stressed and troubled. I can understand that, watching your family all get hauled off to jail for what you think was righteousness. But my sympathy only goes so far. He's turning 18 soon. Wonder if he will be registering for Selective Service.
posted by Miko at 7:08 PM on March 4, 2016 [2 favorites]
Patriarchal bussing
I think it's patriarchal blessing. Interesting to read about.
He seems pretty stressed and troubled. I can understand that, watching your family all get hauled off to jail for what you think was righteousness. But my sympathy only goes so far. He's turning 18 soon. Wonder if he will be registering for Selective Service.
posted by Miko at 7:08 PM on March 4, 2016 [2 favorites]
The Moon Draft was discontinued years ago.
posted by rhizome at 7:15 PM on March 4, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by rhizome at 7:15 PM on March 4, 2016 [2 favorites]
I think it's patriarchal blessing. Interesting to read about.
Oh, ha! That makes a lot more sense, Miko! I was having a hard time following the bus concept.... Thank you.
I found some examples of blessings online, posted by someone who left the church. There's a prophecy/fortune telling aspect to them. It's really fascinating and the person receiving the blessing can really read into it whatever they like.
posted by mochapickle at 7:21 PM on March 4, 2016 [1 favorite]
Oh, ha! That makes a lot more sense, Miko! I was having a hard time following the bus concept.... Thank you.
I found some examples of blessings online, posted by someone who left the church. There's a prophecy/fortune telling aspect to them. It's really fascinating and the person receiving the blessing can really read into it whatever they like.
posted by mochapickle at 7:21 PM on March 4, 2016 [1 favorite]
Does that make the Bundys Hufflepuffs, or Slytherins, though?
posted by Archelaus at 8:12 PM on March 4, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Archelaus at 8:12 PM on March 4, 2016 [1 favorite]
Does that make the Bundys Hufflepuffs, or Slytherins, though?
Dalek wannabes.
posted by marienbad at 2:48 PM on March 5, 2016 [2 favorites]
Dalek wannabes.
posted by marienbad at 2:48 PM on March 5, 2016 [2 favorites]
The use of the phrase "We the People" as a noun phrase by these nutters always gets me.
They aren't talking about "we, the people" or "we" or "the people".
They are talking about this mythical mass of like minded patriots that transcends space and time because the are anointed by god, or some such shit.
Every time I hear them talking about "We the People" did this or that, I get the urge to slap someone. Arden sure has picked up on the usage of it.
(Also, that dumbass appointed himself the leader. It's only a matter of time before he fails to learn the lesson of his degenerate family's failures and joins them, willfully.)
posted by Seamus at 9:07 AM on March 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
They aren't talking about "we, the people" or "we" or "the people".
They are talking about this mythical mass of like minded patriots that transcends space and time because the are anointed by god, or some such shit.
Every time I hear them talking about "We the People" did this or that, I get the urge to slap someone. Arden sure has picked up on the usage of it.
(Also, that dumbass appointed himself the leader. It's only a matter of time before he fails to learn the lesson of his degenerate family's failures and joins them, willfully.)
posted by Seamus at 9:07 AM on March 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
Also, Arden, the whole point is that is ISN'T your family's land. Never was.
Gah!
posted by Seamus at 9:08 AM on March 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
Gah!
posted by Seamus at 9:08 AM on March 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
Just so you know, Finicum'wife, (and IMHO looks like a coupla more in the background) was on the Utah Capitol steps crying murder a couple of days ago. She was met by counter protestors. The Trib first ran a pretty picture of her, then after running the story front page a couple of days in a row, switched to a more aggrieved looking image.
The results of the investigation into Finicum's death, come out tomorrow. I am sure it will headline on The Oregonian at some point in the day. Utah is keeping this stuff alive with a slightly pro stance, again, in my opinion.
posted by Oyéah at 4:45 PM on March 7, 2016
The results of the investigation into Finicum's death, come out tomorrow. I am sure it will headline on The Oregonian at some point in the day. Utah is keeping this stuff alive with a slightly pro stance, again, in my opinion.
posted by Oyéah at 4:45 PM on March 7, 2016
Praise the Lord and pass the ammunition: David Fry is posting again on DefendYourBase via an unknown source.
- Fry describes the hearing in which he was denied release, which evolves into a weird rant about a Saudi prince(?)
- Fry counters the government denial of release, in which we discover that the Oregon camping trip was not the first time Fry attempted suicide. Also: that time he declared war on the US government, he was just kidding!
posted by mochapickle at 8:40 PM on March 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
- Fry describes the hearing in which he was denied release, which evolves into a weird rant about a Saudi prince(?)
- Fry counters the government denial of release, in which we discover that the Oregon camping trip was not the first time Fry attempted suicide. Also: that time he declared war on the US government, he was just kidding!
posted by mochapickle at 8:40 PM on March 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
David Fry is posting again on DefendYourBase via an unknown source.
What? Isn't he in jail?
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 9:18 PM on March 7, 2016
What? Isn't he in jail?
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 9:18 PM on March 7, 2016
He is! I think he's doing 15-minute phone calls to someone who is recording and uploading them for him.
Probably not Gavin, as David is the only voice on the tapes and Gavin's not so great at sitting quietly.
posted by mochapickle at 9:36 PM on March 7, 2016
Probably not Gavin, as David is the only voice on the tapes and Gavin's not so great at sitting quietly.
posted by mochapickle at 9:36 PM on March 7, 2016
And ol' Ammo is comparing himself to Dr. King again, failing to note the key difference that King specifically and expressly -renounced- violence as a tool of the social changes he advocated for.
Hey, Ammo: if you're so sad about jail, maybe stop pointing weapons at cops and staging armed takeovers of Federal land? Just maybe?
I mean, admittedly, you're gonna have time to reflect on it a while in prison, but seriously dude, this is not a surprising end result for your actions.
posted by Archelaus at 10:15 PM on March 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
Hey, Ammo: if you're so sad about jail, maybe stop pointing weapons at cops and staging armed takeovers of Federal land? Just maybe?
I mean, admittedly, you're gonna have time to reflect on it a while in prison, but seriously dude, this is not a surprising end result for your actions.
posted by Archelaus at 10:15 PM on March 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
Presser on Finicum shooting expected at 10am (1pm EST). Live coverage:
http://www.oregonlive.com/#/0
http://kval.com/live
posted by zakur at 9:08 AM on March 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
http://www.oregonlive.com/#/0
http://kval.com/live
posted by zakur at 9:08 AM on March 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
Dropping a couple links that are relevant to land-management issues in the west. The first is this story on NPR, which describes the massive maintenance backlog on NPS lands.
The reporter interviewed someone from a right-wing think tank advocating for public-private partnerships to bring in revenue. It says nothing about how the official non-profit partners of various NPS units have brought in a ton of revenue and funded a ton of projects that otherwise simply would not have been completed. It has nothing in there about how private concessioners in NPS units are accumulating millions in leaseholder surrender interest and trademarking the names of historic lodges they operate. (One concessioner even trademarked the use of "Yosemite National Park" on T-shirts.)
I suspect this omission/apparent slant is a knock-on effect of the 2014 Bundy standoff and the 2016 Malheur occupation — reporters find sources that allow them to better understand why armed wingnuts are angry, and they wind up connecting with various far-right groups whose spokespeople will happily make themselves available for quote on later stories.
A Google News search for "american lands council" and "malheur" yields ~4,500 hits related to the recent occupation. The same search for "national parks conservation association" and "malheur" comes up nearly empty-handed.
The other link is this one, which describes the addition of Valles Caldera in New Mexico to the National Park System. As recently as the 1990s, Valles Caldera was private land. It was purchased by Congress with a mandate to be operated under an experimental public-private partnership. That experiment failed and it is now managed by NPS. One result of the recent change: improved land access.
posted by compartment at 9:14 AM on March 8, 2016 [4 favorites]
The reporter interviewed someone from a right-wing think tank advocating for public-private partnerships to bring in revenue. It says nothing about how the official non-profit partners of various NPS units have brought in a ton of revenue and funded a ton of projects that otherwise simply would not have been completed. It has nothing in there about how private concessioners in NPS units are accumulating millions in leaseholder surrender interest and trademarking the names of historic lodges they operate. (One concessioner even trademarked the use of "Yosemite National Park" on T-shirts.)
I suspect this omission/apparent slant is a knock-on effect of the 2014 Bundy standoff and the 2016 Malheur occupation — reporters find sources that allow them to better understand why armed wingnuts are angry, and they wind up connecting with various far-right groups whose spokespeople will happily make themselves available for quote on later stories.
A Google News search for "american lands council" and "malheur" yields ~4,500 hits related to the recent occupation. The same search for "national parks conservation association" and "malheur" comes up nearly empty-handed.
The other link is this one, which describes the addition of Valles Caldera in New Mexico to the National Park System. As recently as the 1990s, Valles Caldera was private land. It was purchased by Congress with a mandate to be operated under an experimental public-private partnership. That experiment failed and it is now managed by NPS. One result of the recent change: improved land access.
posted by compartment at 9:14 AM on March 8, 2016 [4 favorites]
OSP troopers cleared in shooting death of Finicum.
Key evidence used was cell phone video shot by Shawna Cox from inside the vehicle. Video shows state troopers acted by the book during the stop.
posted by zakur at 10:09 AM on March 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
Key evidence used was cell phone video shot by Shawna Cox from inside the vehicle. Video shows state troopers acted by the book during the stop.
posted by zakur at 10:09 AM on March 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
Total of 8 shots fired in incident. 6 fired by OSP, 2 by FBI.
Not the HUNDREDS of gunshots claimed by Shawna Cox & Victoria Sharp.
posted by zakur at 10:10 AM on March 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
Not the HUNDREDS of gunshots claimed by Shawna Cox & Victoria Sharp.
posted by zakur at 10:10 AM on March 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
They're playing Shawna's video. At the first stop, LaVoy's shouting at the police to put a bullet in his head or let them go. But if they had aimed for LaVoy in that position, they would have hit Shawna.
All that talk of LaVoy's wife and supporters about LaVoy wanting to save the passengers, but according to Shawna's video he put them directly in danger.
posted by mochapickle at 10:16 AM on March 8, 2016 [3 favorites]
All that talk of LaVoy's wife and supporters about LaVoy wanting to save the passengers, but according to Shawna's video he put them directly in danger.
posted by mochapickle at 10:16 AM on March 8, 2016 [3 favorites]
Yeah, they took video of Finicum trying to get them to shoot him at the first stop.
As they closer to the roadblock this is starting to feel voyeuristic.
posted by Seamus at 10:19 AM on March 8, 2016
As they closer to the roadblock this is starting to feel voyeuristic.
posted by Seamus at 10:19 AM on March 8, 2016
Findings: Finicum deliberately sped toward the roadblock, and the road had significant visibility for him to stop in time had he wanted.
posted by mochapickle at 10:22 AM on March 8, 2016
posted by mochapickle at 10:22 AM on March 8, 2016
3 shots fired at the vehicle as it crashed roadblock. Vehicle being used as "dangerous weapon."
posted by zakur at 10:23 AM on March 8, 2016
posted by zakur at 10:23 AM on March 8, 2016
2 shots fired by FBI as Finicum exited vehicle. Neither struck him. Only OSP shots being discussed right now.
posted by zakur at 10:25 AM on March 8, 2016
posted by zakur at 10:25 AM on March 8, 2016
Also, earlier, they confirmed that all passengers agreed to leave the first stop, even though Finicum is on camera saying it was 50 miles to where they needed to go. Shawna: "Gun it."
Finding: 9mm handgun found in Finicum's left pocket. (Jeannette Finicum had said yesterday he went unarmed.)
posted by mochapickle at 10:26 AM on March 8, 2016
Finding: 9mm handgun found in Finicum's left pocket. (Jeannette Finicum had said yesterday he went unarmed.)
posted by mochapickle at 10:26 AM on March 8, 2016
It'll be interesting to hear the justification for the 2 FBI shots.
posted by Seamus at 10:26 AM on March 8, 2016
posted by Seamus at 10:26 AM on March 8, 2016
Bullet hole on LaVoy Finicum's truck traced to elite FBI team
This is going to give them tons of recruiting material, the FBI agent denied firing and 5 are under investigation.
posted by T.D. Strange at 10:26 AM on March 8, 2016
This is going to give them tons of recruiting material, the FBI agent denied firing and 5 are under investigation.
posted by T.D. Strange at 10:26 AM on March 8, 2016
OSP didn't shoot first time or second time Finicum reached for his gun.
posted by zakur at 10:27 AM on March 8, 2016
posted by zakur at 10:27 AM on March 8, 2016
If the FBI shooter is Lon Horiuchi, this country is fucked.
posted by Seamus at 10:30 AM on March 8, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by Seamus at 10:30 AM on March 8, 2016 [2 favorites]
Finicum yelling "Go ahead and shoot me!" multiple times as he exited the vehicle.
posted by zakur at 10:30 AM on March 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by zakur at 10:30 AM on March 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
Finicum gets out of the truck: "You're gonna have to shoot me. You're gonna have to shoot me."
posted by mochapickle at 10:30 AM on March 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by mochapickle at 10:30 AM on March 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
That was a bit too light-hearted. Sorry.
The history of FBI shooters against the Patriot movement is a sore point for them.
McVeigh handed out Horiuchi's address at gun shows before blowing up the Murrah Building.
posted by Seamus at 10:32 AM on March 8, 2016
The history of FBI shooters against the Patriot movement is a sore point for them.
McVeigh handed out Horiuchi's address at gun shows before blowing up the Murrah Building.
posted by Seamus at 10:32 AM on March 8, 2016
Transcript of video shows Finicum yelled some variation of "Shoot me!" seven times after he exited the vehicle.
posted by zakur at 10:33 AM on March 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by zakur at 10:33 AM on March 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
Shots fired by FBI HRT under ongoing investigation by DOJ.
posted by zakur at 10:34 AM on March 8, 2016
posted by zakur at 10:34 AM on March 8, 2016
Horiuchi was an FBI HRT sniper at Ruby Ridge and Waco. In case you're wondering what I am talking about. His actions at both events were questioned.
posted by Seamus at 10:34 AM on March 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Seamus at 10:34 AM on March 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
"We will not be releasing the names of any of the officers involved in this matter due to concerns for their safety" DA says
posted by zakur at 10:37 AM on March 8, 2016
posted by zakur at 10:37 AM on March 8, 2016
FBI's Bretzing says "One, possibly two" shots fired by FBI. Identity of shooter(s) unknown. No more to say on subject since it's ongoing investigation.
posted by zakur at 10:42 AM on March 8, 2016
posted by zakur at 10:42 AM on March 8, 2016
70-80 specific threats made toward the officers involved, including rewards on social media for killing the officers.
posted by mochapickle at 10:46 AM on March 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by mochapickle at 10:46 AM on March 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
(So that's why they're not disclosing the identities of the officers.)
posted by mochapickle at 10:47 AM on March 8, 2016
posted by mochapickle at 10:47 AM on March 8, 2016
I'm kind of darkly amused that the OSP had better fire discipline than the FBI. State Police are usually higher quality than local police, but the FBI is supposed to be even more carefully selected, and the HRTs selective even within them. And they were very careful and disciplined at the refuge itself, but it sounds like someone was too jumpy (and worse, lying about it) in the on-the-road group. While jumping out of a vehicle at a stop is not good form, it still shouldn't result in shooting in the absence of other threats, and if the shooter did judge there were other threats (hand at waist, possible weapon in hand, etc.), they should say so.
I bet the FBI is goddamn pissed, too, last thing they need is people giving these guys more ammunition for playing the victim or conspiracy theories, even if it didn't make any difference as to Finicum's death. Errors are bad but lying is disastrous.
posted by tavella at 11:52 AM on March 8, 2016 [2 favorites]
I bet the FBI is goddamn pissed, too, last thing they need is people giving these guys more ammunition for playing the victim or conspiracy theories, even if it didn't make any difference as to Finicum's death. Errors are bad but lying is disastrous.
posted by tavella at 11:52 AM on March 8, 2016 [2 favorites]
if the shooter did judge there were other threats (hand at waist, possible weapon in hand, etc.), they should say so.
This appears to be the transcript of the actual encounter. According to the presser, the OSP was warned that Finicum carried on his left.
I wouldn't want to be one of those FBI guys, tho.
posted by octobersurprise at 12:11 PM on March 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
This appears to be the transcript of the actual encounter. According to the presser, the OSP was warned that Finicum carried on his left.
I wouldn't want to be one of those FBI guys, tho.
posted by octobersurprise at 12:11 PM on March 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
Obviously conspiracists gonna conspiracize...
Sovcit patriot types on Twitter are all focusing on those two FBI shots and the fact that Finicum was "shot in the back" - ignoring all the other evidence presented, of course.
posted by zakur at 12:23 PM on March 8, 2016
Sovcit patriot types on Twitter are all focusing on those two FBI shots and the fact that Finicum was "shot in the back" - ignoring all the other evidence presented, of course.
posted by zakur at 12:23 PM on March 8, 2016
Oh, I'm not arguing that Finicum wasn't trying to get himself shot, and eventually succeeded in a perfectly legitimate shoot by the OSP. But law enforcement shouldn't shoot people just because they are requesting it. It'd be legit to factor the statements into the threat level in terms of interpreting a subject's potential threatening actions... but if that's what the FBI shooter was doing and they thought they saw a threat, then they say that and the investigation will judge if their judgement was reasonable (well, at least an investigation should, the FBI has a pretty terrible record of excusing anything, as I recall pretty much never have they actually said an agent was in the wrong in a shooting.)
However, when you lie about it... a) you pretty much prima facie think you had no reason to shoot, and b) people go to jail for lying to FBI investigators, and so should FBI.
posted by tavella at 1:10 PM on March 8, 2016 [4 favorites]
However, when you lie about it... a) you pretty much prima facie think you had no reason to shoot, and b) people go to jail for lying to FBI investigators, and so should FBI.
posted by tavella at 1:10 PM on March 8, 2016 [4 favorites]
The FBI agents lying and apparently trying to steal or fake evidence is really bad, and kind of weird when the agent would have just needed to say "I shot because other agents were in danger" or something like that and at worst maybe face a hand-slap for imperfectly following procedure. Instead they lied repeatedly and with lawyers present, and there are allegations about evidence tampering.
If true, I hope those agents face very, very serious criminal charges.
posted by Dip Flash at 2:11 PM on March 8, 2016 [2 favorites]
If true, I hope those agents face very, very serious criminal charges.
posted by Dip Flash at 2:11 PM on March 8, 2016 [2 favorites]
"Elite" FBI team? They sound like amateurs that got caught. Everything else was done by the book, everybody in the truck is proven to be lying scumbags, Finicum was clearly ready to go out shooting...and they still had to go and be cowboys.
posted by zombieflanders at 2:40 PM on March 8, 2016
posted by zombieflanders at 2:40 PM on March 8, 2016
Maybe the FBI lying is just the icing on the cake that will keep the sovcits tied up in knots for years after the govt just goes silent on the topic.
posted by rhizome at 2:43 PM on March 8, 2016
posted by rhizome at 2:43 PM on March 8, 2016
The FBI agents lying and apparently trying to steal or fake evidence is really bad...and there are allegations about evidence tampering
Are these allegations from legit sources, or just sovcit/patriot paranoid rantings? This article by Les Zaitz tangentially mentions Ruby Ridge and FBI evidence tampering, and a lot of people are mistakenly thinking it is referring to this incident.
posted by zakur at 2:57 PM on March 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
Are these allegations from legit sources, or just sovcit/patriot paranoid rantings? This article by Les Zaitz tangentially mentions Ruby Ridge and FBI evidence tampering, and a lot of people are mistakenly thinking it is referring to this incident.
posted by zakur at 2:57 PM on March 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
Are these allegations from legit sources, or just sovcit/patriot paranoid rantings? This article by Les Zaitz tangentially mentions Ruby Ridge and FBI evidence tampering, and a lot of people are mistakenly thinking it is referring to this incident.
I definitely misread the paragraph about tampering with the bullets to be about this event, so while the article mentions "specific actions they took after the shooting, which are the subject of an ongoing investigation," it notes that those actions have not yet been disclosed. So I am guilty of badly misreading and my comment above should have been written differently.
The Times story on this mentions the shooting only and does not discuss any follow-on actions.
posted by Dip Flash at 3:46 PM on March 8, 2016
I definitely misread the paragraph about tampering with the bullets to be about this event, so while the article mentions "specific actions they took after the shooting, which are the subject of an ongoing investigation," it notes that those actions have not yet been disclosed. So I am guilty of badly misreading and my comment above should have been written differently.
The Times story on this mentions the shooting only and does not discuss any follow-on actions.
posted by Dip Flash at 3:46 PM on March 8, 2016
Based on Shawna Cox's behavior in the car and her mom's comments on the live stream it seems that both women are trolls who want to incite people to a bad end.
posted by humanfont at 5:14 PM on March 8, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by humanfont at 5:14 PM on March 8, 2016 [5 favorites]
Jeanette Finicum, and extended family, have no income right now and are hoping for the big lawsuit pay out, I guess. There was coincidentally a large polygamist demonstration at the state capital the day after Jeanette Finicum was out on the capital steps. So her husband's decision to commit suicide by cop, well, was not well thought out. Unless it was the best survival plan he could come up with.
posted by Oyéah at 5:51 PM on March 8, 2016
posted by Oyéah at 5:51 PM on March 8, 2016
Utah's Jason Chaffetz and the rest of the congressional delegation are taking a bill to congress to disarm the federal land managers, leaving them with possibly a side arm, and then just let the local sherrif take care of the serious things. Chaffetz mentioned he wanted the BLM and forest rangers more Andy Griffith and less Rambo. But it is like they all subscribe to sovereign citizen's TV. This is why Ammo Bundy is so obtuse they have all been spoon feeding each other this nonsense for so long, it is imprinted in their DNA. I am reminded of that famous tune, I'm My Own Grandpa.
Our lovely, gerrymandered state. I mentioned there was heavy Utah linkage in this. The Malheur idiot hordes are beloved in some layers of local malfeasance. Start at the top. The Utah state capital has been full 'o fundies this week, their leaders and their sweetheart legislation. Fundie businesses have achieved huge handouts this week. 65 mil for a California coal port, to support Utah and Nevada coal, mines owned by guess who? Then billboards on all the scenic byways of Utah, outdoor sign companies, owned by guess who? It's turning back to the nineteenth century around here. The buffoon glee index is at an all time high. The drama, the smiling wives all grouped up at the capital, it is too much, really.
posted by Oyéah at 7:11 PM on March 8, 2016
Our lovely, gerrymandered state. I mentioned there was heavy Utah linkage in this. The Malheur idiot hordes are beloved in some layers of local malfeasance. Start at the top. The Utah state capital has been full 'o fundies this week, their leaders and their sweetheart legislation. Fundie businesses have achieved huge handouts this week. 65 mil for a California coal port, to support Utah and Nevada coal, mines owned by guess who? Then billboards on all the scenic byways of Utah, outdoor sign companies, owned by guess who? It's turning back to the nineteenth century around here. The buffoon glee index is at an all time high. The drama, the smiling wives all grouped up at the capital, it is too much, really.
posted by Oyéah at 7:11 PM on March 8, 2016
It's too bad that park rangers and land managers have to carry guns now to protect themselves. Even in the Grand Canyon at Lees Ferry they are suited up like commandos with a gun, taser, handcuffs, collar radio and body armor at all times, even when it's 120 degrees out.
This is a result of the Credit Card Act of 2009 of all things. The Credit Card Act is a consumer protection law that eliminates many of the egregious schemes of the bankers to gouge money out of customers. But in a tiny amendment hidden at the bottom is Sec. 512 with the ridiculous title of "Protecting Americans from violent crime". This for the first time allows people to carry guns into National Parks and Wildlife Refuges.
That's the way the sausage is made in the Beltway. That's what it takes to get Republicans to sign a bill helping consumers against the bankers.
posted by JackFlash at 8:17 PM on March 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
This is a result of the Credit Card Act of 2009 of all things. The Credit Card Act is a consumer protection law that eliminates many of the egregious schemes of the bankers to gouge money out of customers. But in a tiny amendment hidden at the bottom is Sec. 512 with the ridiculous title of "Protecting Americans from violent crime". This for the first time allows people to carry guns into National Parks and Wildlife Refuges.
That's the way the sausage is made in the Beltway. That's what it takes to get Republicans to sign a bill helping consumers against the bankers.
posted by JackFlash at 8:17 PM on March 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
One nutty guy in a cowboy gets shit and suddenly a GOP rep from a red state wants to start taking guns away. Apparently BLM agents don't have second amendment rights.
posted by humanfont at 8:18 PM on March 8, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by humanfont at 8:18 PM on March 8, 2016 [2 favorites]
Here are the helicopter and in-car videos synced up.
Apologies if it's already been explained in a linked article, but can anyone explain the bangs and flashes after Finicum is shot? In the synced video they occur at 6:04 and 6:10 in the video.
posted by Bugbread at 11:18 PM on March 8, 2016 [2 favorites]
Apologies if it's already been explained in a linked article, but can anyone explain the bangs and flashes after Finicum is shot? In the synced video they occur at 6:04 and 6:10 in the video.
posted by Bugbread at 11:18 PM on March 8, 2016 [2 favorites]
Flashbang stun grenades, gas grenades, and non-lethal sponge rounds.
posted by AGameOfMoans at 11:26 PM on March 8, 2016
posted by AGameOfMoans at 11:26 PM on March 8, 2016
All three?
But, yeah, I can see the smoke now when I look at the in-car footage. White smoke on a snowy background doesn't show up well in helicopter video, especially since the wind is carrying the smoke away from the vehicle. Also...don't they seem kinda useless? I mean, if you have them you may as well use them, so I'm not opposed to them having used them, but the flashbangs aren't bright at all outside during the daytime, and the gas grenade smoke just wafts lazily away from the car. It feels like people using flashes from stadium seats at sporting events or concerts: it doesn't do any harm, but it doesn't do any good either.
posted by Bugbread at 11:47 PM on March 8, 2016
But, yeah, I can see the smoke now when I look at the in-car footage. White smoke on a snowy background doesn't show up well in helicopter video, especially since the wind is carrying the smoke away from the vehicle. Also...don't they seem kinda useless? I mean, if you have them you may as well use them, so I'm not opposed to them having used them, but the flashbangs aren't bright at all outside during the daytime, and the gas grenade smoke just wafts lazily away from the car. It feels like people using flashes from stadium seats at sporting events or concerts: it doesn't do any harm, but it doesn't do any good either.
posted by Bugbread at 11:47 PM on March 8, 2016
Not knowing my pop culture, I had to look up the song Ficus was playing. I assumed it was a religious song. But no, it's a pop song and this is the first article on it that I find:
A Great Big World's Chad King Explains How 'Hold Each Other' Became a 'Coming Out Song'
I watched the whole synced video again.
"We should put out a white flag. Do we have a white flag?"
Really? You didn't get any of those in the mail with the dildos? America asleep at the wheel again. But the fact that these people thought that a white flag would be the thing to stop them from getting "shot" at is rich. I'm sorry folks, but all those cops wanted was for you to come out of the car slowly with your hands up. They wanted you to do it a mile or so down the road but you didn't. The cops showed admirable restraint. The fact that these people who, ostensibly, are firearms literate could think that all of those thumping noises against the body of their un-armored vehicle were actually live rounds and not less-lethal rounds is just rich. Sure, adrenaline makes judgment go out the window, but they should have been playing scenarios like this over in their head, even if tinged with their dream-world survivalist superiority delusions.
I made the mistake of reading some of the winger responses to the presser and they have doubled down like nobody's business. Sad and scary. In the '90s people had to work to get connected to the patriot underground terrorist movement. Nowadays, it's at their fingertips. It does make it easy to talk and do nothing, as most do. But there is at least a couple more McVeighs out there planning their revenge already.
posted by Seamus at 6:12 AM on March 9, 2016 [2 favorites]
A Great Big World's Chad King Explains How 'Hold Each Other' Became a 'Coming Out Song'
I watched the whole synced video again.
"We should put out a white flag. Do we have a white flag?"
Really? You didn't get any of those in the mail with the dildos? America asleep at the wheel again. But the fact that these people thought that a white flag would be the thing to stop them from getting "shot" at is rich. I'm sorry folks, but all those cops wanted was for you to come out of the car slowly with your hands up. They wanted you to do it a mile or so down the road but you didn't. The cops showed admirable restraint. The fact that these people who, ostensibly, are firearms literate could think that all of those thumping noises against the body of their un-armored vehicle were actually live rounds and not less-lethal rounds is just rich. Sure, adrenaline makes judgment go out the window, but they should have been playing scenarios like this over in their head, even if tinged with their dream-world survivalist superiority delusions.
I made the mistake of reading some of the winger responses to the presser and they have doubled down like nobody's business. Sad and scary. In the '90s people had to work to get connected to the patriot underground terrorist movement. Nowadays, it's at their fingertips. It does make it easy to talk and do nothing, as most do. But there is at least a couple more McVeighs out there planning their revenge already.
posted by Seamus at 6:12 AM on March 9, 2016 [2 favorites]
but the flashbangs aren't bright at all outside during the daytime
They have a concussive sound effect (+170 dB) in addition to the flash, which can cause disorientation & confusion.
posted by zakur at 7:57 AM on March 9, 2016
They have a concussive sound effect (+170 dB) in addition to the flash, which can cause disorientation & confusion.
posted by zakur at 7:57 AM on March 9, 2016
All rounds that travel are live. Being firearms literate does not make you able to identify bullet types by the sound of them hitting your car, because shockingly enough, shooting at people just for funsie education is an astonishingly bad idea. Even the best firearm instructors who had not been in live combat would not be able to identify what specific shots were being fired by the sound of them impacting metal. That's a crazily unrealistically high standard you're trying to hold people to.
posted by corb at 11:01 AM on March 9, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by corb at 11:01 AM on March 9, 2016 [2 favorites]
but they should have been playing scenarios like this over in their head, even if tinged with their dream-world survivalist superiority delusions.
Turns out that delusions interfere with judgement and prioritization. That inside-the-car video is a great illustration of a group breaking with reality. "They want to shoot us" "Are they shooting us?" "Shoot me!" "OMIGOD THEY SHOT HIM"
posted by rhizome at 11:09 AM on March 9, 2016 [2 favorites]
Turns out that delusions interfere with judgement and prioritization. That inside-the-car video is a great illustration of a group breaking with reality. "They want to shoot us" "Are they shooting us?" "Shoot me!" "OMIGOD THEY SHOT HIM"
posted by rhizome at 11:09 AM on March 9, 2016 [2 favorites]
It seems a very clear example of suicide by cop. It's very fortunate no one else went with him.
posted by Miko at 11:26 AM on March 9, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by Miko at 11:26 AM on March 9, 2016 [3 favorites]
Also, Victoria Sharp an EMT? I am sorry, I know she's young, but given her reaction she's about the last person I'd want to be in an emergency with. She lost her shit in three or four different ways there.
posted by Miko at 11:38 AM on March 9, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Miko at 11:38 AM on March 9, 2016 [1 favorite]
You will note that the FBI started firing on Finicum just as he exited the vehicle:
posted by wuwei at 12:14 PM on March 9, 2016 [1 favorite]
But officials also said that FBI agents who were on the scene failed to say that as Finicum was getting out of his truck, they themselves fired two rounds, neither of which hit him. One of those rounds hit the roof of Finicum's truck.Now what might that be about?
Link
posted by wuwei at 12:14 PM on March 9, 2016 [1 favorite]
Even the best firearm instructors who had not been in live combat would not be able to identify what specific shots were being fired by the sound of them impacting metal.
Imagine a broken-down old car in the middle of the desert — it's riddled with bullet holes. Bullets pierce car doors; less-lethal rounds presumably do not. If no one in that truck had ever seen (or personally shot at) an abandoned old car in the desert, I would be super-duper surprised.
I can understand how they might have mistaken the sound of less-lethal rounds for actual bullets. (One of the issues that came up in the 2014 standoff was a leader of an Oklahoma militia who said they would not fire unless fired upon, and then answered a follow-up question with an admission they wouldn't be able to initially tell whether officers were firing nonlethal ammo.)
But what makes less sense is getting out of that truck, observing that no, it does not look like swiss cheese, and then continuing to believe that they had been shot at hundreds of times with ordinary lead ammo.
posted by compartment at 1:08 PM on March 9, 2016 [1 favorite]
Imagine a broken-down old car in the middle of the desert — it's riddled with bullet holes. Bullets pierce car doors; less-lethal rounds presumably do not. If no one in that truck had ever seen (or personally shot at) an abandoned old car in the desert, I would be super-duper surprised.
I can understand how they might have mistaken the sound of less-lethal rounds for actual bullets. (One of the issues that came up in the 2014 standoff was a leader of an Oklahoma militia who said they would not fire unless fired upon, and then answered a follow-up question with an admission they wouldn't be able to initially tell whether officers were firing nonlethal ammo.)
But what makes less sense is getting out of that truck, observing that no, it does not look like swiss cheese, and then continuing to believe that they had been shot at hundreds of times with ordinary lead ammo.
posted by compartment at 1:08 PM on March 9, 2016 [1 favorite]
Now what might that be about?
This seems to have been covered in the summary. There were a few shots fired as the truck was plowing into the snow. Then:
That they apparently didn't report it openly at first is not very cool, if that's the case. They probably thought it hurt their case, but covering it up, of course, hurts it as well. Nuts will use it to make a big deal of, when the explanation is garden variety and I certainly think you could argue it was justified after Finicum tried to use the vehicle as a weapon.posted by Miko at 1:18 PM on March 9, 2016 [3 favorites]
This seems to have been covered in the summary. There were a few shots fired as the truck was plowing into the snow. Then:
Finicum instantly stepped out of the truck, his hands out to his sides at about shoulder height. Investigators concluded that an FBI agent on the highway clipped off two shots, one that went wild and one that pierced the truck roof and shattered the left rear passenger window. A shell fragment struck Bundy in the shoulder.So investigators already knew about that, and apparently have been looking into it ex post facto. I can't speculate much about what it's "about," other than "OMG this armed nut tried to run a roadblock and nearly hit an officer and now he's lunging from the truck yelling" - i.e., lapse of discipline.
That they apparently didn't report it openly at first is not very cool, if that's the case. They probably thought it hurt their case, but covering it up, of course, hurts it as well. Nuts will use it to make a big deal of, when the explanation is garden variety and I certainly think you could argue it was justified after Finicum tried to use the vehicle as a weapon.posted by Miko at 1:18 PM on March 9, 2016 [3 favorites]
Yeah, if a bullet or fragment of bullet hit a passenger in the shoulder, I think even I, had I been said passenger, would have assumed that I was being shot at - because, well, I was. When you have even a few successful hits with real ammo, and a lot of unsuccessful ones with less-lethal ammo, that sounds like a shitstorm clusterfuck that would have been impossible to figure out with the short amounts of time involved.
If a passenger had been wounded, the "shoot me!" even makes a kind of sense for a man that knew he was going to die - "shoot me, not them, look at me, not them. I am willing to die, they are young and have their lives ahead of them."
posted by corb at 1:24 PM on March 9, 2016
If a passenger had been wounded, the "shoot me!" even makes a kind of sense for a man that knew he was going to die - "shoot me, not them, look at me, not them. I am willing to die, they are young and have their lives ahead of them."
posted by corb at 1:24 PM on March 9, 2016
If I can get a little rewind here, is there something in the water with this group where they dislike/distrust *all* law enforcement, or is it just Feds? Or is it just cops who interfere in whatever they want to do? I'm trying to get a handle on what the *foundation* (not just the immediate thought processes) of this guy just bounding out of his truck after having run a roadblock.
posted by rhizome at 1:47 PM on March 9, 2016
posted by rhizome at 1:47 PM on March 9, 2016
The short answer is: they regard all police except Sheriffs as not legal under their moon-law. There's also specifically been talk about it being legal to shoot police that impede them in any way (and a number of SovCit types have taken shots at and even killed police officers).
posted by Archelaus at 1:49 PM on March 9, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by Archelaus at 1:49 PM on March 9, 2016 [4 favorites]
After seeing the synced up video there's some innate feeling of Finicum's...I don't know being an authority? Everyone seems to defer to elder male figures, especially a married landowner with children. He expected his gravitas to make all other authorities stand down.
It hit me when Mitt Romney called the press conference last week with his proscription for the future of the party. It's like he expected everyone to stop and take heed. It's an authority that those of us with a different worldview do not recognize.
posted by readery at 1:57 PM on March 9, 2016 [4 favorites]
It hit me when Mitt Romney called the press conference last week with his proscription for the future of the party. It's like he expected everyone to stop and take heed. It's an authority that those of us with a different worldview do not recognize.
posted by readery at 1:57 PM on March 9, 2016 [4 favorites]
At my wedding I not only forgot which of my wife's hands to put the ring on, but when she whispered "left, left" to me under her breath I forgot what the words "left" and "right" meant (she ended out having to subtly extend her left hand...and then I dropped the ring). Given the "getting shot at" is a billion times more stressful than "getting married", I can't really blame anyone in the car for forgetting the acoustic differences between different types of ammo.
The way Finicum charges out the door the moment the car stops makes less sense. You don't make any sudden moves when getting arrested. If you're calm you remember that. If you're panicked you freeze, which produces the same ultimate result. But he charges out the door the second the car stops.
And the "shoot me" being in response to getting injured by broken glass/plastic theory only makes sense if Finicum was a time traveller, because he was shouting "shoot me" at the first traffic stop, about five minutes before the shoulder injury.
posted by Bugbread at 2:01 PM on March 9, 2016 [4 favorites]
The way Finicum charges out the door the moment the car stops makes less sense. You don't make any sudden moves when getting arrested. If you're calm you remember that. If you're panicked you freeze, which produces the same ultimate result. But he charges out the door the second the car stops.
And the "shoot me" being in response to getting injured by broken glass/plastic theory only makes sense if Finicum was a time traveller, because he was shouting "shoot me" at the first traffic stop, about five minutes before the shoulder injury.
posted by Bugbread at 2:01 PM on March 9, 2016 [4 favorites]
- "shoot me, not them, look at me, not them. I am willing to die, they are young and have their lives ahead of them."
Cmon, that's a fantasy designed to make an unlawful prick into a martyr. There's certainly zero evidence in his actions that this was Fincums plan. He challenged police to shoot him at the earlier stop.
posted by OmieWise at 2:09 PM on March 9, 2016 [10 favorites]
Cmon, that's a fantasy designed to make an unlawful prick into a martyr. There's certainly zero evidence in his actions that this was Fincums plan. He challenged police to shoot him at the earlier stop.
posted by OmieWise at 2:09 PM on March 9, 2016 [10 favorites]
But worse than just canonizing Fincum, that fantasy starts from the place of accepting a framing we know to be false, and that Fincum did too. The police showed nothing but restraint. Fincum had seen his friend get out of the car, with a gun, and be arrested peacefully. I understand that he was in a highly charged situation and was perhaps not thinking clearly, but we don't have that excuse. Without just lying about it, accepting basically short of the sainthood of the police in this situation seems impossible.
posted by OmieWise at 2:28 PM on March 9, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by OmieWise at 2:28 PM on March 9, 2016 [4 favorites]
Asshole tried to get everyone else in the car shot too, let's not pretend otherwise.
posted by Artw at 2:31 PM on March 9, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by Artw at 2:31 PM on March 9, 2016 [4 favorites]
If he'd wanted to protect them. he'd have ordered them out at the first stop, not asked, "want out?"
posted by Miko at 2:39 PM on March 9, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Miko at 2:39 PM on March 9, 2016 [1 favorite]
Sorry, Bugbread, I misread the timeline to suggest that transcript was after the broken glass/injury.
I will say though that the idea of staying in the car is not always intuitive. When I was 23 and getting stopped for a traffic stop, I vividly recall getting out of my car because I thought it was taking a while and the cop must want to talk to me. I hadn't been taught by other people that cops get really, really nervous when you do that.
posted by corb at 3:04 PM on March 9, 2016
I will say though that the idea of staying in the car is not always intuitive. When I was 23 and getting stopped for a traffic stop, I vividly recall getting out of my car because I thought it was taking a while and the cop must want to talk to me. I hadn't been taught by other people that cops get really, really nervous when you do that.
posted by corb at 3:04 PM on March 9, 2016
Corb, check out the video from inside the car. I don't think the FBI was justified in taking those first two shots, but the video makes it a little less inexplicable. He doesn't slow to a stop, open the door, and step out with his hands up, he slams to a stop and immediately dashes from the vehicle. Again, I don't think that means the FBI should have shot, but if you just go by the transcription you get a very different sense of the way things played out.
(Also, if you don't want to watch the video because you don't want to see someone get killed, don't worry, the shooting happened way outside the area shown in the video, you don't see anything.)
posted by Bugbread at 3:17 PM on March 9, 2016
(Also, if you don't want to watch the video because you don't want to see someone get killed, don't worry, the shooting happened way outside the area shown in the video, you don't see anything.)
posted by Bugbread at 3:17 PM on March 9, 2016
LaVoy Finicum was not a confused/miseducated you at age 23, corb. There is simply no viable argument that he didn't know full well what he was doing, and I can't fathom why anyone would bother to try to find one. He was a criminal, a reckless endangerer, and a jerk to boot, and we're lucky he didn't take a decent person who was just doing their job with him.
posted by Miko at 3:20 PM on March 9, 2016 [9 favorites]
posted by Miko at 3:20 PM on March 9, 2016 [9 favorites]
Easy to second guess when you're not all het-up with freedumb.
posted by rhizome at 3:49 PM on March 9, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by rhizome at 3:49 PM on March 9, 2016 [1 favorite]
New six-count indictment unsealed in Malheur refuge occupation case
The indictment now charges 26 people, including an unnamed defendant, with federal conspiracy.posted by zakur at 7:11 PM on March 9, 2016 [1 favorite]
It also charges 20 of the defendants with possessing firearms and dangerous weapons at the federal refuge, nine with use and carry of a firearm in relation to a crime of violence, three with theft of government property and two with depredation of government property.
[...]
Sean Anderson, one of the last four occupiers, and the unnamed defendant are accused of depredation of government property in their alleged excavation Jan. 27 of an archaeological site considered sacred to the Burns Paiute Tribe, the indictment says.
But guuuuys, they were just caaaaaaamping!
posted by mochapickle at 7:36 PM on March 9, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by mochapickle at 7:36 PM on March 9, 2016 [1 favorite]
The way Finicum charges out the door the moment the car stops makes less sense.
According to the first account from Ryan Bundy, when Finicum leaped out of the truck, the engine was running and it was still in gear with the wheels spinning high-centered in the snow. It doesn't seem that Finicum was thinking very clearly, hyped up on adrenaline.
posted by JackFlash at 7:36 PM on March 9, 2016
According to the first account from Ryan Bundy, when Finicum leaped out of the truck, the engine was running and it was still in gear with the wheels spinning high-centered in the snow. It doesn't seem that Finicum was thinking very clearly, hyped up on adrenaline.
posted by JackFlash at 7:36 PM on March 9, 2016
I never go camping without a backhoe.
posted by Miko at 7:46 PM on March 9, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by Miko at 7:46 PM on March 9, 2016 [5 favorites]
And your Pocket Constitution!
posted by mochapickle at 7:48 PM on March 9, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by mochapickle at 7:48 PM on March 9, 2016 [2 favorites]
The real Constitution, of course.
posted by Miko at 7:52 PM on March 9, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Miko at 7:52 PM on March 9, 2016 [1 favorite]
Man, isn't it great the way the wheels grind slowly, but very, very, finely...
posted by mikelieman at 12:47 AM on March 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by mikelieman at 12:47 AM on March 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
But guuuuys, they were just caaaaaaamping!
And Sandy Anderson's defense is that she wasn't aware of federal orders to leave.
posted by zakur at 8:11 AM on March 10, 2016
And Sandy Anderson's defense is that she wasn't aware of federal orders to leave.
posted by zakur at 8:11 AM on March 10, 2016
Not really a surprise, but Cliven Bundy refuses to acknowledge federal authority, enter plea in his arraignment yesterday. The judge entered a "not guilty plea" on his behalf. Detention hearing scheduled for March 17.
posted by zakur at 5:48 AM on March 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by zakur at 5:48 AM on March 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
I'm sincerely curious how they can have weapons charges for having guns at the refuge? I seem to vaguely recall you're allowed to carry at federal parks now? Am I misremembering, or are there specific prohibitions for the refuge?
posted by corb at 6:18 AM on March 11, 2016
posted by corb at 6:18 AM on March 11, 2016
Q. Can I take a firearm anywhere I go in the park?
A. No. Federal law prohibits firearms in “federal facilities,” which are generally defined as federally-owned or -leased buildings where federal employees work on a regular basis. Buildings that meet this definition will have signs posted at public entrances noting the prohibition on firearms.
So they probably walked right past a sign that told them the law. Going to be hard to argue against this one.
posted by bluecore at 6:49 AM on March 11, 2016 [4 favorites]
A. No. Federal law prohibits firearms in “federal facilities,” which are generally defined as federally-owned or -leased buildings where federal employees work on a regular basis. Buildings that meet this definition will have signs posted at public entrances noting the prohibition on firearms.
So they probably walked right past a sign that told them the law. Going to be hard to argue against this one.
posted by bluecore at 6:49 AM on March 11, 2016 [4 favorites]
And thanks once again to David Fry, it seems like there is going to be plentiful evidence of them walking around with and keeping firearms in the various federal buildings. I get the feeling that livestreaming years onto everyone's sentences is going to make him very unpopular.
posted by zombieflanders at 7:20 AM on March 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by zombieflanders at 7:20 AM on March 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
Another piece about his refusal to enter a plea. I was curious if he had anything else SovCit like to say, but apparently just the refusal.
posted by Miko at 7:51 AM on March 11, 2016
posted by Miko at 7:51 AM on March 11, 2016
The occupiers carried assault weapons. would not let government workers work, under implied threat of violence, and stated they had taken the refuge and were not giving it back. Way grand theft.
posted by Oyéah at 8:14 AM on March 11, 2016
posted by Oyéah at 8:14 AM on March 11, 2016
I don't think they call it "theft" any more when you're attempting to steal land from the government. I'm pretty sure that's on a different scale.
posted by Archelaus at 9:27 AM on March 11, 2016
posted by Archelaus at 9:27 AM on March 11, 2016
Oh I see, thanks - yeah from the pullquote it wasn't clear if it was the refuge or the building .
posted by corb at 9:40 AM on March 11, 2016
posted by corb at 9:40 AM on March 11, 2016
Ah, the tried and true Saddam-Milosevic strategy! Pre-need burial expenses are way lower, someone should send a postcard with a reminder or coupon or something.
posted by rhizome at 9:55 AM on March 11, 2016
posted by rhizome at 9:55 AM on March 11, 2016
(One of the issues that came up in the 2014 standoff was a leader of an Oklahoma militia who said they would not fire unless fired upon, and then answered a follow-up question with an admission they wouldn't be able to initially tell whether officers were firing nonlethal ammo.)
In other news: the Oklahoma militias are probably celebrating this: Oklahoma Has Fully Embraced the Wild West Lifestyle
posted by homunculus at 5:54 PM on March 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
In other news: the Oklahoma militias are probably celebrating this: Oklahoma Has Fully Embraced the Wild West Lifestyle
posted by homunculus at 5:54 PM on March 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
Well this thread is soon to be closed, and as we have had Moon Law One, Two, and Three, I look forward to Moon Law Four - Closing the Cell Door... As we get to watch these idiots sent down for a long time.
posted by marienbad at 11:59 AM on March 13, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by marienbad at 11:59 AM on March 13, 2016 [3 favorites]
Bye thread!
posted by AGameOfMoans at 1:40 PM on March 13, 2016
posted by AGameOfMoans at 1:40 PM on March 13, 2016
There's a man you hear aboooooout
Most anywhere you'll be
His ranch is in Nevadaaaaaa
And his name is Cliven B
posted by cortex at 5:04 PM on March 13, 2016 [1 favorite]
Most anywhere you'll be
His ranch is in Nevadaaaaaa
And his name is Cliven B
posted by cortex at 5:04 PM on March 13, 2016 [1 favorite]
OK a quickie.... so I had been jobless for most of the Oregon occupation and finally landed a job about the last week of it. For some reason I latched on to that news story like a Netflix binge gone really bad. So I'm coming back from my (successful - yeah!) job interview and I'm talking to my Lyft driver about the Oregon thing and he never heard of it of course because he has a life and all so I tell him all bout it and the characters involved and he's absolutely enthralled by the whole thing . I feel like some stone age story teller and all I can think of afterwards is "My God, I've absolutely wasted a month of my life!"
posted by AGameOfMoans at 5:28 PM on March 13, 2016 [10 favorites]
posted by AGameOfMoans at 5:28 PM on March 13, 2016 [10 favorites]
Feels like the end of an era.
On the 11th, when the last four were surrendering, I was packing up to leave the place I'd been working for the past four years. I spent the morning typing up notes on where to find everything while Gavin and KrisAnne chattered away about nothing, and by the time Sean played that bagpipe song, I was returning all the extra pens and paperclips to the supply closet.
Not long after Fry stupidly and yet horrifyingly announced his refusal to surrender and his plan for suicide by feds, I had to turn in my laptop, so I spent my entire 90-minute farewell lunch picking at an enchilada and not knowing who exactly survived the ordeal and how, and then I went home still feeling that weird buoyancy you get when you finally leave a job that wasn't quite right for you.
So the post-standoff stuff aligns with my not working, and it's been a weird month but a good one for me, while theirs has been a weird month but a bad one, I'm sure.
Anyway, I'm grateful for everyone navigating our way through what was going on out there. You are my true people.
posted by mochapickle at 5:45 PM on March 13, 2016 [3 favorites]
On the 11th, when the last four were surrendering, I was packing up to leave the place I'd been working for the past four years. I spent the morning typing up notes on where to find everything while Gavin and KrisAnne chattered away about nothing, and by the time Sean played that bagpipe song, I was returning all the extra pens and paperclips to the supply closet.
Not long after Fry stupidly and yet horrifyingly announced his refusal to surrender and his plan for suicide by feds, I had to turn in my laptop, so I spent my entire 90-minute farewell lunch picking at an enchilada and not knowing who exactly survived the ordeal and how, and then I went home still feeling that weird buoyancy you get when you finally leave a job that wasn't quite right for you.
So the post-standoff stuff aligns with my not working, and it's been a weird month but a good one for me, while theirs has been a weird month but a bad one, I'm sure.
Anyway, I'm grateful for everyone navigating our way through what was going on out there. You are my true people.
posted by mochapickle at 5:45 PM on March 13, 2016 [3 favorites]
I drove the Red Thoughts Consort nuts with my obsession with this pack of idiots.
Thanks to you idiots for bearing with my idiocy about these idiots. It's been fun.
See you all for Moon Law 4.0: Live Free orDie Hard Live in Jail for, like, 15 years.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 6:14 PM on March 13, 2016
Thanks to you idiots for bearing with my idiocy about these idiots. It's been fun.
See you all for Moon Law 4.0: Live Free or
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 6:14 PM on March 13, 2016
And here it is! Farewell Thread, we hardly knew ye ....
posted by AGameOfMoans at 7:01 PM on March 13, 2016
posted by AGameOfMoans at 7:01 PM on March 13, 2016
Can I get a Hallelujah? Not leaving until I do...
posted by honestcoyote at 7:17 PM on March 13, 2016 [7 favorites]
posted by honestcoyote at 7:17 PM on March 13, 2016 [7 favorites]
Hallelujah!
posted by Seamus at 10:09 PM on March 13, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Seamus at 10:09 PM on March 13, 2016 [1 favorite]
Hallelujah!
posted by Bugbread at 11:36 PM on March 13, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Bugbread at 11:36 PM on March 13, 2016 [1 favorite]
> OregonLive - State licensing board seeks investigation of Grant County sheriff who met militants
Oregon standoff: Ammon Bundy comes to aid of embattled Grant County sheriff
posted by homunculus at 11:43 PM on March 13, 2016 [1 favorite]
Oregon standoff: Ammon Bundy comes to aid of embattled Grant County sheriff
posted by homunculus at 11:43 PM on March 13, 2016 [1 favorite]
I'll jot that down as "someone hasn't learned his lesson yet, continues to commit crimes from prison"
posted by Archelaus at 11:59 PM on March 13, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Archelaus at 11:59 PM on March 13, 2016 [1 favorite]
From homunculus' posted article: ""He also found out that we were good hard working family people that love this country and would not hurt another person," Bundy said."
Yeah, I'm sure you were all working hard for the 3 weeks or so you spent dossing around the Malheur Wildlife Refuge. And the other 4, the holdouts, they were clearly working hard while "camping." And that Finicum? Yeah, he works hard, taking a shed ton of state hand-out cash for fostering kids while "working" on his ranch.
What a fucking lazy, lying dick.
posted by marienbad at 6:01 AM on March 14, 2016 [2 favorites]
Yeah, I'm sure you were all working hard for the 3 weeks or so you spent dossing around the Malheur Wildlife Refuge. And the other 4, the holdouts, they were clearly working hard while "camping." And that Finicum? Yeah, he works hard, taking a shed ton of state hand-out cash for fostering kids while "working" on his ranch.
What a fucking lazy, lying dick.
posted by marienbad at 6:01 AM on March 14, 2016 [2 favorites]
"Bundy said in a recorded statement posted Sunday to Facebook that Palmer was the only sheriff in Oregon who did not 'get caught up in the deception' that occupiers put people at risk in Harney County."
So that whole thing with the guns and the threats to not be taken alive and to keep the Feds off the land you had 'liberated'? That was all a deception created by the Feds? So . . . um . . . what are you claiming you were doing there, Ammon?
posted by Seamus at 9:11 AM on March 14, 2016
So that whole thing with the guns and the threats to not be taken alive and to keep the Feds off the land you had 'liberated'? That was all a deception created by the Feds? So . . . um . . . what are you claiming you were doing there, Ammon?
posted by Seamus at 9:11 AM on March 14, 2016
Clearly, we need a bagpipe to play us out!
Or Dire Straits' "Walk of Life".
posted by ogooglebar at 11:48 AM on March 14, 2016 [2 favorites]
Or Dire Straits' "Walk of Life".
posted by ogooglebar at 11:48 AM on March 14, 2016 [2 favorites]
Rats, I was kinda hoping that David Fry would manage to post a last word here from prison somehow.
posted by AGameOfMoans at 2:01 PM on March 14, 2016
posted by AGameOfMoans at 2:01 PM on March 14, 2016
Can I bring my guns or do I have to leave them in this thread?
posted by spikeleemajortomdickandharryconnickjrmints at 3:24 PM on March 14, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by spikeleemajortomdickandharryconnickjrmints at 3:24 PM on March 14, 2016 [1 favorite]
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posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 5:40 PM on February 14, 2016 [40 favorites]