Spreadsheets In Space Prepare for Battle
March 31, 2016 10:42 AM Subscribe
The Space Pope looks kind of embarrassed in that photo.
posted by lagomorphius at 10:56 AM on March 31, 2016
posted by lagomorphius at 10:56 AM on March 31, 2016
It's things like this that keep me wanting to go back to EVE even though every time I try out EVE it always ends the same way: with me feeling bored and leaving.
I think a large part of it is that I simply can't devote enough of my life to EVE to really play it. I can see how if I had hours of play time each day I could get deeply involved with a corp, mine my little heart out, and even get into manufacturing.
But when I'm limited to a half hour, at the most, in between laundry, helping the kid with his homework, cooking dinner, etc I just can't manage to do enough to keep my interest up.
So I watch the great wars of EVE and think it'd be fun to play. But I can't.
posted by sotonohito at 10:56 AM on March 31, 2016 [20 favorites]
I think a large part of it is that I simply can't devote enough of my life to EVE to really play it. I can see how if I had hours of play time each day I could get deeply involved with a corp, mine my little heart out, and even get into manufacturing.
But when I'm limited to a half hour, at the most, in between laundry, helping the kid with his homework, cooking dinner, etc I just can't manage to do enough to keep my interest up.
So I watch the great wars of EVE and think it'd be fun to play. But I can't.
posted by sotonohito at 10:56 AM on March 31, 2016 [20 favorites]
Sorry. I know how much mefi likes to gawk at Eve war so I wanted to share.
posted by msbutah at 10:59 AM on March 31, 2016 [12 favorites]
posted by msbutah at 10:59 AM on March 31, 2016 [12 favorites]
Brilliant, thank-you. I love the annual MetaFilter EVE update. They've been going on long enough that I recognise past history, too, so that's even more interesting.
posted by alasdair at 11:00 AM on March 31, 2016 [18 favorites]
posted by alasdair at 11:00 AM on March 31, 2016 [18 favorites]
Sorry. I know how much mefi likes to gawk at Eve war so I wanted to share.
EVE online FPPs are among my very favourites.
posted by jeather at 11:01 AM on March 31, 2016 [17 favorites]
EVE online FPPs are among my very favourites.
posted by jeather at 11:01 AM on March 31, 2016 [17 favorites]
Mod note: A few comments deleted; a few typos fixed; carry on!
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 11:02 AM on March 31, 2016
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 11:02 AM on March 31, 2016
This is like the hyper-futuristic version of the "Space Empire" game I used to have on my BBS.
posted by grumpybear69 at 11:09 AM on March 31, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by grumpybear69 at 11:09 AM on March 31, 2016 [1 favorite]
man, the future is weird.
scarily more like a cstross novel than anything else.
posted by bonehead at 11:09 AM on March 31, 2016 [7 favorites]
scarily more like a cstross novel than anything else.
posted by bonehead at 11:09 AM on March 31, 2016 [7 favorites]
I found this video to be a good overview on the current war, from a similar post on Kotaku with more videos and analysis.
posted by bluecore at 11:18 AM on March 31, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by bluecore at 11:18 AM on March 31, 2016 [4 favorites]
EVE online FPPs are among my very favourites.
Me too, strangely. I've never played for even a single second and wouldn't know how to start without googling, but I find the whole thing really interesting.
posted by nevercalm at 11:19 AM on March 31, 2016 [34 favorites]
Me too, strangely. I've never played for even a single second and wouldn't know how to start without googling, but I find the whole thing really interesting.
posted by nevercalm at 11:19 AM on March 31, 2016 [34 favorites]
You had me at 'spreadsheets.'
posted by beerperson at 11:22 AM on March 31, 2016 [17 favorites]
posted by beerperson at 11:22 AM on March 31, 2016 [17 favorites]
Around this time last year the CFC decided to rebrand itself as The Imperium. It was a cheeky move, but also a clever way to give their coalition a kind of legitimacy over every other group in the game. They even went so far as to swear fealty to a quasi-religious Eve cosplayer who goes by the name Maximilian Singularity VI as a publicity stunt.What a time to be alive.
So yes, this is a picture of Gianturco kissing the ring of the Space Pope.
posted by Mayor West at 11:22 AM on March 31, 2016 [26 favorites]
Someone should send these to John Oliver, so he makes a show trying to explain all this. I'm sure he'd find everything he loves.
posted by lmfsilva at 11:22 AM on March 31, 2016 [17 favorites]
posted by lmfsilva at 11:22 AM on March 31, 2016 [17 favorites]
Ditto nevercalm, they're surprisingly engaging from an outsider's perspective.
posted by Atreides at 11:23 AM on March 31, 2016
posted by Atreides at 11:23 AM on March 31, 2016
I Want ISK is a gambling site where Eve players can take their in-game currency, called ISK, and basically play slots. Someone from Spacemonkey's group ticked off one of the bankers behind I Want ISK, a player named 1ronBank, so badly that he hired an in-game mercenary group to harass the fleets in their sector
This sounds disturbingly like the plot to the Star Wars prequels.
posted by ericales at 11:32 AM on March 31, 2016 [12 favorites]
This sounds disturbingly like the plot to the Star Wars prequels.
posted by ericales at 11:32 AM on March 31, 2016 [12 favorites]
This should prove a nice shot to the economy of Iceland.
posted by Bringer Tom at 11:33 AM on March 31, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by Bringer Tom at 11:33 AM on March 31, 2016 [4 favorites]
In the grim darkness of the far future, there are only VBA macros and pivot tables.
posted by bonehead at 11:34 AM on March 31, 2016 [30 favorites]
posted by bonehead at 11:34 AM on March 31, 2016 [30 favorites]
Every time I think that I am done with EVE, something like this shows up.
The best EVE video is the one using in-game footage from a few years ago. There is absolutely nothing like it in gaming—both the highest highs and the lowest lows.
posted by fifteen schnitzengruben is my limit at 11:34 AM on March 31, 2016 [10 favorites]
The best EVE video is the one using in-game footage from a few years ago. There is absolutely nothing like it in gaming—both the highest highs and the lowest lows.
posted by fifteen schnitzengruben is my limit at 11:34 AM on March 31, 2016 [10 favorites]
By the time we're all ready to be plugged into the matrix, it will already be controlled by shadowy groups of EVE players.
posted by maxwelton at 11:34 AM on March 31, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by maxwelton at 11:34 AM on March 31, 2016 [4 favorites]
Wait a second. There's an empire who controls vast portions of the universe by requiring tithes of its subjects in exchange for protection, and has changed its name three times while growing to its current size, and who pays fealty to the Pope, but is beginning to splinter as its central governance lacks the ability to control the far reaches of its territory effectively. At the same time, a large force from a previously unknown leader has coalesced to oppose this great empire, and has fought several skirmishes successfully, and is now advancing toward the heart of the empire.
Are there accusations of ISK being fenced via black market BitCoins? Say, on the Silk Road? Fer chrissake, is the casino going to write a letter demanding the surrender of the Pope, but penned in Arabic? Should we just start calling Killah Bee "Killah Khan?" Can we at least call the mercenary army "The Golden Horde?"
Is this like one of those moments when you realize the secrets of the universe are embedded somewhere near the 50 billionth digit of pi?
posted by Mayor West at 11:44 AM on March 31, 2016 [26 favorites]
Are there accusations of ISK being fenced via black market BitCoins? Say, on the Silk Road? Fer chrissake, is the casino going to write a letter demanding the surrender of the Pope, but penned in Arabic? Should we just start calling Killah Bee "Killah Khan?" Can we at least call the mercenary army "The Golden Horde?"
Is this like one of those moments when you realize the secrets of the universe are embedded somewhere near the 50 billionth digit of pi?
posted by Mayor West at 11:44 AM on March 31, 2016 [26 favorites]
Is the Space-Pope reptilian??!
No, apparently not.
posted by Existential Dread at 11:57 AM on March 31, 2016 [7 favorites]
No, apparently not.
posted by Existential Dread at 11:57 AM on March 31, 2016 [7 favorites]
Question from someone who only knows as much about Eve as the Metafilter posts reveal:
Is it possible for individuals within these giant coalitions to liquidate ships into the real world money they are apparently worth? At some value (size? class?) of ship, does it become the kind of thing that would require signoff from multiple people?
I understand that if you enjoy the game itself then you wouldn't want to burn all bridges and get yourself blacklisted from ever really being able to play again, but I figure there have to be people whose run is ending or whose life circumstances have changed, and how has some group like "I Wank ISK" not just straight up bought out enough people to hurt The Imperium or whomever?
posted by jermsplan at 11:59 AM on March 31, 2016 [1 favorite]
Is it possible for individuals within these giant coalitions to liquidate ships into the real world money they are apparently worth? At some value (size? class?) of ship, does it become the kind of thing that would require signoff from multiple people?
I understand that if you enjoy the game itself then you wouldn't want to burn all bridges and get yourself blacklisted from ever really being able to play again, but I figure there have to be people whose run is ending or whose life circumstances have changed, and how has some group like "I Wank ISK" not just straight up bought out enough people to hurt The Imperium or whomever?
posted by jermsplan at 11:59 AM on March 31, 2016 [1 favorite]
I'm interested in most phases of data processing.
posted by BurntHombre at 11:59 AM on March 31, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by BurntHombre at 11:59 AM on March 31, 2016 [5 favorites]
This is EVE
This is REALLY EvE
I find these two videos pretty accurately tracks to my experience playing most games online....
posted by nevercalm at 12:16 PM on March 31, 2016 [20 favorites]
This is REALLY EvE
I find these two videos pretty accurately tracks to my experience playing most games online....
posted by nevercalm at 12:16 PM on March 31, 2016 [20 favorites]
I find it a little odd that I can't offhand think of any good-to-great science fiction that ever had any battles this size. I'm thinking Banks, Stross, Corey, etc. Maybe because it's a little unrealistic in terms of science? Or just too unwieldy to write up such a slaughter. Correct me if I'm wrong (oh who am I kidding, this is MF, someone is bound to correct me).
posted by Ber at 12:25 PM on March 31, 2016
posted by Ber at 12:25 PM on March 31, 2016
I don't understand any of it, but I do love these Bitcoin threads!
posted by Pyrogenesis at 12:29 PM on March 31, 2016 [6 favorites]
posted by Pyrogenesis at 12:29 PM on March 31, 2016 [6 favorites]
I find it a little odd that I can't offhand think of any good-to-great science fiction that ever had any battles this size.
Legend of Galactic Heroes has some pretty big space battles in it. Tens of thousands of warships, and millions of casualties. Just like many other people in this thread, I've never played a second of Eve, but I always assume it's basically LoGH the game, with more spreadsheets.
posted by Aznable at 12:36 PM on March 31, 2016 [3 favorites]
Legend of Galactic Heroes has some pretty big space battles in it. Tens of thousands of warships, and millions of casualties. Just like many other people in this thread, I've never played a second of Eve, but I always assume it's basically LoGH the game, with more spreadsheets.
posted by Aznable at 12:36 PM on March 31, 2016 [3 favorites]
I find it a little odd that I can't offhand think of any good-to-great science fiction that ever had any battles this size.
I can't remember the name of the titles now, but I've read a few space operas that have battles on these scales that aren't Banks Culture novels but they're not terribly good books, but they're not awful if you like space opera.
The one I'm thinking of in particular involves an alien invasion and lots of really big ships - including one hollowed out of a small moon - and a scrappy underdog Earth and lots of terribly advanced weaponry including anti-matter missiles and other weird shit, but it had endless pages devoted to these battle scenes and the destruction of these huge ships and it was all very epic and explody.
posted by loquacious at 12:41 PM on March 31, 2016
I can't remember the name of the titles now, but I've read a few space operas that have battles on these scales that aren't Banks Culture novels but they're not terribly good books, but they're not awful if you like space opera.
The one I'm thinking of in particular involves an alien invasion and lots of really big ships - including one hollowed out of a small moon - and a scrappy underdog Earth and lots of terribly advanced weaponry including anti-matter missiles and other weird shit, but it had endless pages devoted to these battle scenes and the destruction of these huge ships and it was all very epic and explody.
posted by loquacious at 12:41 PM on March 31, 2016
Visually, the Crest of the Stars series has a number of large battles, though the stories generally follow two protagonists around.
posted by Atreides at 12:45 PM on March 31, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Atreides at 12:45 PM on March 31, 2016 [1 favorite]
Those pictures of the space battles are very pretty, like this one.
Is there anywhere to go that has high-res versions for me toprint out in large format at work look at?
posted by wenestvedt at 12:48 PM on March 31, 2016 [1 favorite]
Is there anywhere to go that has high-res versions for me to
posted by wenestvedt at 12:48 PM on March 31, 2016 [1 favorite]
I find it a little odd that I can't offhand think of any good-to-great science fiction that ever had any battles this size.
Maybe some of the E.E. "Doc" Smith books? "Ender's Game" was bigger and bigger space battles near the end, wasn't it?
posted by wenestvedt at 12:49 PM on March 31, 2016 [3 favorites]
Maybe some of the E.E. "Doc" Smith books? "Ender's Game" was bigger and bigger space battles near the end, wasn't it?
posted by wenestvedt at 12:49 PM on March 31, 2016 [3 favorites]
(I mean, if you can set aside your "good" criterion...)
posted by wenestvedt at 12:50 PM on March 31, 2016
posted by wenestvedt at 12:50 PM on March 31, 2016
The "This is EVE" video reliably puts an urge to play EVE again under my skin like a virus. Personally, I've never really experienced the sort of Try-Hard comms abuse that you hear in nevercalm's "This is REALLY EVE" video, though I know it is ubiquitous, especially in exactly the sort of huge battles this FPP is about.
I've never taken part in any of these insanely huge battles myself (though I have been in a couple with 100+ ships) but, from talking to those who have, I get the impression that they aren't really "fun" for anybody involved. But accomplishing the goals that these battles are a part of (namely empire building, crushing your enemies, and hearing their lamentations) are a huge part of what makes the game fun for a big part of the player base.
For my own stop-and-start multi-year EVE career, I have always most enjoyed being role of a ragtag band of outlaws snapping around the heels of the big powers, infinitely beneath their notice until the moment we sneak in and prey on one of their own.
But I'm really glad these big battles happen. They make the world interesting, and they cause huge shakeups in the economy and the political lay of the land that affect everyone from the pirate to the hauler to the high-sec miner.
posted by 256 at 12:50 PM on March 31, 2016 [4 favorites]
I've never taken part in any of these insanely huge battles myself (though I have been in a couple with 100+ ships) but, from talking to those who have, I get the impression that they aren't really "fun" for anybody involved. But accomplishing the goals that these battles are a part of (namely empire building, crushing your enemies, and hearing their lamentations) are a huge part of what makes the game fun for a big part of the player base.
For my own stop-and-start multi-year EVE career, I have always most enjoyed being role of a ragtag band of outlaws snapping around the heels of the big powers, infinitely beneath their notice until the moment we sneak in and prey on one of their own.
But I'm really glad these big battles happen. They make the world interesting, and they cause huge shakeups in the economy and the political lay of the land that affect everyone from the pirate to the hauler to the high-sec miner.
posted by 256 at 12:50 PM on March 31, 2016 [4 favorites]
Woah that Space Pope thing is amazing. Here's Max Singularity's YouTube channel. Complete with space sermons and 20 minute Yule Log video. I love that he's some 60ish white dude in a posh house. His Twitter account is remarkable too.
Just last week I got my copy of Empires of EVE: A History of the Great Wars of EVE Online, a book by journalist Andrew Groen about the great wars in 2004–2008 back when I was playing. I've only skimmed it but its pretty well written. I think it will be for sale retail soon.
posted by Nelson at 12:53 PM on March 31, 2016 [7 favorites]
Just last week I got my copy of Empires of EVE: A History of the Great Wars of EVE Online, a book by journalist Andrew Groen about the great wars in 2004–2008 back when I was playing. I've only skimmed it but its pretty well written. I think it will be for sale retail soon.
posted by Nelson at 12:53 PM on March 31, 2016 [7 favorites]
That spacepapal tweet stream is pretty good stuff, Nelson.
posted by wenestvedt at 1:00 PM on March 31, 2016
posted by wenestvedt at 1:00 PM on March 31, 2016
The only hug battles in space SF that I can think of off the top of my head is Weber, who is fun, but needs a serious editor and is writing Horatio Hornblower IN SPACE! His books are a guilty pleasure. I suspect that you might find more large scale space battles in some of the other stuff put out by Baen in their MilSF section. I only know Bujold, Weber and Flint from them, so I can't comment on the quality of the rest of their authors.
The closest Banks gets to a large space battle that I can think of is either a near-lightspeed skirmish, where one side is trying to slow down the other significantly, not destroy them in The Algebraist (non Culture) or the non-battle with a giant number of ships in Excession (Culture). He actually avoids showing any real space combat in the one book from the Idiran-Culture war (Consider Phlebas).
posted by Hactar at 1:35 PM on March 31, 2016
The closest Banks gets to a large space battle that I can think of is either a near-lightspeed skirmish, where one side is trying to slow down the other significantly, not destroy them in The Algebraist (non Culture) or the non-battle with a giant number of ships in Excession (Culture). He actually avoids showing any real space combat in the one book from the Idiran-Culture war (Consider Phlebas).
posted by Hactar at 1:35 PM on March 31, 2016
Like any empire that lasts too long, hubris starts to bite you in the ass.
posted by bukvich at 1:42 PM on March 31, 2016
posted by bukvich at 1:42 PM on March 31, 2016
Pournelle/Mote in God's Eye/Gripping Hand?
posted by mikelieman at 1:44 PM on March 31, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by mikelieman at 1:44 PM on March 31, 2016 [1 favorite]
hug battles in space
Filthy carebear casuals.
posted by Nelson at 1:47 PM on March 31, 2016 [20 favorites]
Filthy carebear casuals.
posted by Nelson at 1:47 PM on March 31, 2016 [20 favorites]
Coming down to the last book in the Lensman series, the Galactic Patrol Grand Fleet was astoundingly large, consisting of all the warships that could be built by millions of planets, and they were tossing around planetary-mass chunks of antimatter. The best defensive weapon they had developed was called the "sunbeam" and it amounted to temporarily turning a star into a gigantic laser, with output power of conversion of thousands of tons of matter into energy per second.
In terms of space opera I don't think anything else has ever come close.
posted by Chocolate Pickle at 1:53 PM on March 31, 2016 [6 favorites]
In terms of space opera I don't think anything else has ever come close.
posted by Chocolate Pickle at 1:53 PM on March 31, 2016 [6 favorites]
The best defensive weapon they had developed was called the "sunbeam" and it amounted to temporarily turning a star into a gigantic laser, with output power of conversion of thousands of tons of matter into energy per second.
In terms of space opera I don't think anything else has ever come close.
Isn't that basically what the Thingamajig from The Force Awakens did, as well?
posted by tobascodagama at 2:01 PM on March 31, 2016 [3 favorites]
In terms of space opera I don't think anything else has ever come close.
Isn't that basically what the Thingamajig from The Force Awakens did, as well?
posted by tobascodagama at 2:01 PM on March 31, 2016 [3 favorites]
Identifying parallels between the eugenically superior Lensmen and the First Order is left as an exercise for the reader.
posted by zamboni at 2:13 PM on March 31, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by zamboni at 2:13 PM on March 31, 2016 [5 favorites]
Star Wars owes a great deal to Lensman, right down to its psychic space cops, specifically spherical planet-destroying space battleships, special hot-rod spaceships, and matryoshka doll villainy.
But as zamboni notes, Star Wars has less in the way of super racist overall plots involving the incestuous atlantean irish messiahs. Most movies have less of that.
posted by The Gaffer at 2:19 PM on March 31, 2016 [12 favorites]
But as zamboni notes, Star Wars has less in the way of super racist overall plots involving the incestuous atlantean irish messiahs. Most movies have less of that.
posted by The Gaffer at 2:19 PM on March 31, 2016 [12 favorites]
So if I haven't read the Lensman books since I was in middle school -- is that a recommendation to re-read them now, or will I be horribly saddened by their many -isms? Same with H. Beam Piper?
posted by PandaMomentum at 2:24 PM on March 31, 2016
posted by PandaMomentum at 2:24 PM on March 31, 2016
Well, there aren't that many isms, but they're enthusiastically pursued. So I suppose you'll find out if the books are tolerable within 15 minutes. I don't know from H. Beam Piper, but as names that sound like space opera props, that's pretty good. Activate the H-Beam Piper and set course the Vernor Vinge!
posted by The Gaffer at 2:30 PM on March 31, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by The Gaffer at 2:30 PM on March 31, 2016 [4 favorites]
I find it a little odd that I can't offhand think of any good-to-great science fiction that ever had any battles this size.
Also came here to say EE "Doc" Smith. Also came here to make a comment about 'good.'
posted by zippy at 2:36 PM on March 31, 2016 [2 favorites]
Also came here to say EE "Doc" Smith. Also came here to make a comment about 'good.'
posted by zippy at 2:36 PM on March 31, 2016 [2 favorites]
I'm really interested in the specific "tithing" arrangement that The Imperium has set up. Is it like a straight-up extortion racket like, "pay us or be immediately destroyed"? Or is it more like a negotiated treaty, "pay us and we'll guarantee that none of our constituents will attack you"? Or does it go further like a civis romanus sum arrangement, "pay us and anyone who attacks you will feel the full wrath of our empire"?
More interesting to me is if The Imperium provides anything other than protection in exchange for the tithe, e.g.: some kind of materiel or support or something. I would imagine that the people paying the tithe/tax/protection money would be more inclined to take up arms if there was something other than just protection at stake. I've heard that one of the reasons that Al Capone was so popular in Chicago was that along with his usual violent, criminal rackets, he also set up a lot of the soup kitchens at the height of the Great Depression.
posted by mhum at 2:40 PM on March 31, 2016 [1 favorite]
More interesting to me is if The Imperium provides anything other than protection in exchange for the tithe, e.g.: some kind of materiel or support or something. I would imagine that the people paying the tithe/tax/protection money would be more inclined to take up arms if there was something other than just protection at stake. I've heard that one of the reasons that Al Capone was so popular in Chicago was that along with his usual violent, criminal rackets, he also set up a lot of the soup kitchens at the height of the Great Depression.
posted by mhum at 2:40 PM on March 31, 2016 [1 favorite]
My group was one of the Imperium allies living on the edge of the Empire, so we were the first to be attacked and overrun. The evacuation over the last week has been somewhat stressful and a lot of work. It's sort of like evacuating an island. But since I am the man selling boat tickets, it has worked out ok for me personally.
posted by ryanrs at 2:46 PM on March 31, 2016 [16 favorites]
posted by ryanrs at 2:46 PM on March 31, 2016 [16 favorites]
Harry Harrison's Homeworld trilogy finishes up its socialist revolution with some pretty hard-for-its-day fleet-scale space combat.
posted by sixswitch at 2:48 PM on March 31, 2016
posted by sixswitch at 2:48 PM on March 31, 2016
OMG I know the Space Pope. Well, peripherally. I've seen his Eve posts on FB and went "oh wow is that going be..." and yes it was.
posted by flaterik at 2:51 PM on March 31, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by flaterik at 2:51 PM on March 31, 2016 [1 favorite]
What a Space Pope! They've even managed virtual cultural appropriation by copying Nick Offerman's yule log video.
posted by cmfletcher at 2:53 PM on March 31, 2016
posted by cmfletcher at 2:53 PM on March 31, 2016
My co-pilot had taken his shirt off and was pouring beer on his chest, to facilitate the tanning process. “What the hell are you yelling about?” he muttered, staring up at the closest star with his eyes closed and covered with wraparound Spanish sunglasses. “Never mind,” I said. “It’s your turn to drive.” I hit the brakes and aimed the Great Red Kestrel toward the shoulder of the jumpgate. No point mentioning those Velators, I thought. The poor bastard will see them soon enough.
posted by delfin at 2:53 PM on March 31, 2016 [7 favorites]
posted by delfin at 2:53 PM on March 31, 2016 [7 favorites]
I'm really interested in the specific "tithing" arrangement that The Imperium has set up.
Are you talking about the lowsec viceroy thing, or the internal politics of Imperium alliances? I can explain either.
posted by ryanrs at 2:54 PM on March 31, 2016
Are you talking about the lowsec viceroy thing, or the internal politics of Imperium alliances? I can explain either.
posted by ryanrs at 2:54 PM on March 31, 2016
Uh, both, please?
posted by thecaddy at 3:06 PM on March 31, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by thecaddy at 3:06 PM on March 31, 2016 [1 favorite]
ryanrs, feel free to explain anything about EVE at all. It's the most interesting game I can't even imagine how to play.
posted by jeather at 3:12 PM on March 31, 2016 [8 favorites]
posted by jeather at 3:12 PM on March 31, 2016 [8 favorites]
any good-to-great science fiction that ever had any battles this size
There's a subgenre of space opera; military sci-fi.
The Lost Fleet is readable and slightly better than Honor Harrington; they are all about ship formations in 3D and newtonian physics. They also cover a lot of strategy like area denial or logistics and travel time and stuff.
posted by porpoise at 3:16 PM on March 31, 2016
There's a subgenre of space opera; military sci-fi.
The Lost Fleet is readable and slightly better than Honor Harrington; they are all about ship formations in 3D and newtonian physics. They also cover a lot of strategy like area denial or logistics and travel time and stuff.
posted by porpoise at 3:16 PM on March 31, 2016
The best defensive weapon they had developed was called the "sunbeam" and it amounted to temporarily turning a star into a gigantic laser, with output power of conversion of thousands of tons of matter into energy per second.
Yeah, manipulating the magnetic fields using the superconductor in a Ringworld's scrith can do that, IIRC. Getting a solar flare to lase.
posted by mikelieman at 3:17 PM on March 31, 2016 [3 favorites]
Yeah, manipulating the magnetic fields using the superconductor in a Ringworld's scrith can do that, IIRC. Getting a solar flare to lase.
posted by mikelieman at 3:17 PM on March 31, 2016 [3 favorites]
Well the lowsec viceroy thing was a gimmick meant to rile up the lowsec residents who live along the Imperium's border. It never really got off the ground, but we did get a bunch of fights out of it because we attacked their income moons. Mostly the viceroy program amounted to a lot of badposting on reddit and the like.
Inside the Imperium proper, there aren't regular money payments. It's much more about mutual defense than income. The head of the Imperium, Goonswarm Federation, does usually decide things like who will occupy each region of space, and sometimes headshots poorly performing ally alliances. When that happens it's usually because the alliance has massive leadership problems, so they're not really in a position to resist. Then the member corps of the killed alliance get rolled into other allies or a new alliance is formed with new leadership.
The way GSF kills poorly performing allies is pretty dictatorial, but it's necessary in EVE, I think. EVE chews up alliance leaders and they burn out on a regular cycle.
posted by ryanrs at 3:27 PM on March 31, 2016 [2 favorites]
Inside the Imperium proper, there aren't regular money payments. It's much more about mutual defense than income. The head of the Imperium, Goonswarm Federation, does usually decide things like who will occupy each region of space, and sometimes headshots poorly performing ally alliances. When that happens it's usually because the alliance has massive leadership problems, so they're not really in a position to resist. Then the member corps of the killed alliance get rolled into other allies or a new alliance is formed with new leadership.
The way GSF kills poorly performing allies is pretty dictatorial, but it's necessary in EVE, I think. EVE chews up alliance leaders and they burn out on a regular cycle.
posted by ryanrs at 3:27 PM on March 31, 2016 [2 favorites]
Apparently this was has been christened World War Bee. (A Bee is the official logo and mascot of Goonswarm, who make up the heart of CFC/The Imperium, and this war is largely them vs. the world, so it's not a bad moniker.)
posted by 256 at 3:28 PM on March 31, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by 256 at 3:28 PM on March 31, 2016 [1 favorite]
Like more than a few folks on this thread, I confess a great love of and fascination with EVE and its politics and battles while being pretty much a complete outsider.
Don't know if it's already been linked in the thread, but this video (from an apparently in-universe news channel?) tells the story pretty well: Circle of Two Severs Ties with Imperium After Tribute Defeat
I LOVE it all: the echoes of history that actually occurred involving nation states, coalitions, and disgruntled factions, as well as the sci-fi/fantasy stew that brings in names, references and allusions from just about every popular (and obscure) pre-existing work there is.
posted by lord_wolf at 3:36 PM on March 31, 2016 [2 favorites]
Don't know if it's already been linked in the thread, but this video (from an apparently in-universe news channel?) tells the story pretty well: Circle of Two Severs Ties with Imperium After Tribute Defeat
I LOVE it all: the echoes of history that actually occurred involving nation states, coalitions, and disgruntled factions, as well as the sci-fi/fantasy stew that brings in names, references and allusions from just about every popular (and obscure) pre-existing work there is.
posted by lord_wolf at 3:36 PM on March 31, 2016 [2 favorites]
MetaFilter: all very epic and explody
posted by GenjiandProust at 3:50 PM on March 31, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by GenjiandProust at 3:50 PM on March 31, 2016 [2 favorites]
Is it possible for individuals within these giant coalitions to liquidate ships into the real world money they are apparently worth? At some value (size? class?) of ship, does it become the kind of thing that would require signoff from multiple people?
It all depends on how comfortable you are dealing with the Russian internet mafia at 3 a.m. PLEX (Pilot License Extensions - 30 days In Game Time cards basically) are salable objects that are physical ingame items, so there is a vast and complicated network of RMT buyers/sellers. I don't think you could sell a Titan (the largest of the ships) but if you have the correct roles within a corporation you can do what's called (in Goonwaffe anyway) Goonfucking, make off with a huge amount of credits/materiel - it's not necessarily the ships that are the high value items anyway, and smaller items are far easier to move.
A PLEX is generally about $15 USD, and can be bought for ~800 Million ISK on the ingame market, so if you can find a buyer for something worth Billions of ISK you can (illegally by game rules) convert it to PLEX and sell the PLEX at discount. People do also buy characters (legal by game rules) and I'm sure there is straight up RMT (ie. I will send you cash dollars, you send me X) but the GMs get suspicious about all this, hence dealing with the Russians, who don't care.
I've played EVE with Goonwaffe before and this is all making me itch to get back into it. I mostly scout and do covop intel so this would be a good time to get back into the game, as I feel some attachment to the systems being attacked. Deklein belongs to the Goons.
Then I lie down for a while until the feeling passes because I have already won EVE.
posted by the uncomplicated soups of my childhood at 3:55 PM on March 31, 2016 [8 favorites]
It all depends on how comfortable you are dealing with the Russian internet mafia at 3 a.m. PLEX (Pilot License Extensions - 30 days In Game Time cards basically) are salable objects that are physical ingame items, so there is a vast and complicated network of RMT buyers/sellers. I don't think you could sell a Titan (the largest of the ships) but if you have the correct roles within a corporation you can do what's called (in Goonwaffe anyway) Goonfucking, make off with a huge amount of credits/materiel - it's not necessarily the ships that are the high value items anyway, and smaller items are far easier to move.
A PLEX is generally about $15 USD, and can be bought for ~800 Million ISK on the ingame market, so if you can find a buyer for something worth Billions of ISK you can (illegally by game rules) convert it to PLEX and sell the PLEX at discount. People do also buy characters (legal by game rules) and I'm sure there is straight up RMT (ie. I will send you cash dollars, you send me X) but the GMs get suspicious about all this, hence dealing with the Russians, who don't care.
I've played EVE with Goonwaffe before and this is all making me itch to get back into it. I mostly scout and do covop intel so this would be a good time to get back into the game, as I feel some attachment to the systems being attacked. Deklein belongs to the Goons.
Then I lie down for a while until the feeling passes because I have already won EVE.
posted by the uncomplicated soups of my childhood at 3:55 PM on March 31, 2016 [8 favorites]
Lord_wolf: Yep. The Scope is the NPC in-world news organization. It's officially controlled by CCP (the developers of the game), but the actual reporting is done by journalists CCP recruits from among the player base.
There are also entirely player-run/owned/built news networks, notably EveNews24, but they aren't usually quite as In Character as The Scope, nor do they usually produce as slick of videos (the videos are done with CCP support).
posted by 256 at 3:55 PM on March 31, 2016 [1 favorite]
There are also entirely player-run/owned/built news networks, notably EveNews24, but they aren't usually quite as In Character as The Scope, nor do they usually produce as slick of videos (the videos are done with CCP support).
posted by 256 at 3:55 PM on March 31, 2016 [1 favorite]
Also, not for nothing, I would expect some surprises from the Imperium. Just a hunch.
posted by the uncomplicated soups of my childhood at 3:57 PM on March 31, 2016
posted by the uncomplicated soups of my childhood at 3:57 PM on March 31, 2016
any good-to-great science fiction that ever had any battles this size
From the epilogue to Iain M. Banks' Consider Phlebas, which will be prepared for Earth dwellers in A.D. 2110 after the Culture makes Contact with us, about the Idiran War which took place in our 12th century:
posted by Bringer Tom at 4:10 PM on March 31, 2016 [2 favorites]
From the epilogue to Iain M. Banks' Consider Phlebas, which will be prepared for Earth dwellers in A.D. 2110 after the Culture makes Contact with us, about the Idiran War which took place in our 12th century:
STATISTICSSo even the single battle at the beginning of the novel is probably comparable in scope to the current fracas in EVE. The war casts a long shadow over the considerable breadth of the Culture, at least until they Contact the Affront in Excession and Banks goes a little silly.
Length of war: forty-eight years, one month. Total casualties, including machines (reckoned on logarithmic sentience scale), medjel, and non-combatants: 851.4 billion (+- 0.3%). Losses: ships (all classes above interplanetary) -- 91,215,660 (+- 200); Orbitals -- 14,334; planets and major moons -- 53; Rings -- 1; Spheres -- 3; stars (undergoing significant induced mass-loss or sequence-position alteration) -- 6.
posted by Bringer Tom at 4:10 PM on March 31, 2016 [2 favorites]
Is it possible for individuals within these giant coalitions to liquidate ships into the real world money they are apparently worth? At some value (size? class?) of ship, does it become the kind of thing that would require signoff from multiple people?
To follow up on tusomc's solid answer: Officially, cash can only flow into the game (spend $15, get a PLEX, sell it in game for 800m ISK). But given that people are putting cash into the game in order to get isk, there is obviously an opportunity to convert ISK into cash by offering to transfer someone (who would otherwise buy PLEX) isk or resources directly in exchange for them sending you cash through out-of-game channels, usually at a steep discount.
This is seriously against game rules (one of VERY few things that is) and will result in CCP doing everything they can to lock you out of the game forever, deleting your characters, banning your IP, blocking future signups from credit cards tied to your name, etc. What they don't/can't do however is enact any real non-EVE penalties, since there's nothing really illegal about it. So, in practise, most of the people who try to cash out this way do it as part of a plan that also involves permanently quitting EVE.
In probably the most noteworthy example, a director of EVE-Bank (a player created and run bank which offered interest on savings, did loans, and basically did a very good impression of a real world bank; something that there is no NPC equivalent of in EVE) emptied the vast majority of the bank's coffers and sold it for cash with no warning. EVE-Bank had up until this point been considered unimpeachably above-board and all of their directors were extremely carefully vetted. But this particular director found himself in a real world financial situation where his house was going to be foreclosed on and he was going to have trouble feeding and clothing his children. No matter how strong his sense of loyalty may have been in-game, it's not hard to empathize with the realization that he could solve all of his family's real problems by embezzling tens (maybe it was actually hundreds) of thousands of dollars from this fictional bank, pissing off thousands of people in the process, but not actually breaking any laws.
Situations like this have indeed resulted in corporations and alliances doing a lot of work to try and ensure that it is as difficult as possible for any person (even the head honcho) to abscond with a substantial percentage of their net worth. But there is no in-game mechanism that makes this level of security easy. In fact the game mechanics make it quite hard (if not impossible) to lock things down in a way that is safe from a single c-suite betrayal.
posted by 256 at 4:11 PM on March 31, 2016 [17 favorites]
To follow up on tusomc's solid answer: Officially, cash can only flow into the game (spend $15, get a PLEX, sell it in game for 800m ISK). But given that people are putting cash into the game in order to get isk, there is obviously an opportunity to convert ISK into cash by offering to transfer someone (who would otherwise buy PLEX) isk or resources directly in exchange for them sending you cash through out-of-game channels, usually at a steep discount.
This is seriously against game rules (one of VERY few things that is) and will result in CCP doing everything they can to lock you out of the game forever, deleting your characters, banning your IP, blocking future signups from credit cards tied to your name, etc. What they don't/can't do however is enact any real non-EVE penalties, since there's nothing really illegal about it. So, in practise, most of the people who try to cash out this way do it as part of a plan that also involves permanently quitting EVE.
In probably the most noteworthy example, a director of EVE-Bank (a player created and run bank which offered interest on savings, did loans, and basically did a very good impression of a real world bank; something that there is no NPC equivalent of in EVE) emptied the vast majority of the bank's coffers and sold it for cash with no warning. EVE-Bank had up until this point been considered unimpeachably above-board and all of their directors were extremely carefully vetted. But this particular director found himself in a real world financial situation where his house was going to be foreclosed on and he was going to have trouble feeding and clothing his children. No matter how strong his sense of loyalty may have been in-game, it's not hard to empathize with the realization that he could solve all of his family's real problems by embezzling tens (maybe it was actually hundreds) of thousands of dollars from this fictional bank, pissing off thousands of people in the process, but not actually breaking any laws.
Situations like this have indeed resulted in corporations and alliances doing a lot of work to try and ensure that it is as difficult as possible for any person (even the head honcho) to abscond with a substantial percentage of their net worth. But there is no in-game mechanism that makes this level of security easy. In fact the game mechanics make it quite hard (if not impossible) to lock things down in a way that is safe from a single c-suite betrayal.
posted by 256 at 4:11 PM on March 31, 2016 [17 favorites]
It's also worth noting, for any mefites not acquainted with the level of cutthroat anarchy encouraged within EVE, that setting up a bank, taking deposits from thousands of players, and then absconding with all the money is entirely legitimate EVE gameplay. It was only the subsequent selling of that ISK for USD that got the EVE-Bank director banned.
Ponzi schemes and the like are rampant within EVE and, if you lose your entire EVE net-worth to one and then petition the GMs, all you will get back is a chuckle and a warning to be more careful next time, even if your losses could be measured in thousands of USD.
posted by 256 at 4:19 PM on March 31, 2016 [3 favorites]
Ponzi schemes and the like are rampant within EVE and, if you lose your entire EVE net-worth to one and then petition the GMs, all you will get back is a chuckle and a warning to be more careful next time, even if your losses could be measured in thousands of USD.
posted by 256 at 4:19 PM on March 31, 2016 [3 favorites]
Metafilter EVE discussions always seem to bring up RMT. I don't think RMT has much, if any, impact on large-scale EVE politics.
If you're trying to be a relevant space power in the game, you don't start by selling off your space wealth for out-of-game money.
posted by ryanrs at 4:35 PM on March 31, 2016 [1 favorite]
If you're trying to be a relevant space power in the game, you don't start by selling off your space wealth for out-of-game money.
posted by ryanrs at 4:35 PM on March 31, 2016 [1 favorite]
Oh absolutely, ryanrs. I mean, I think it comes up so often just because most mefites taking part in these conversations are not EVE players and, when they read stories that inevitably report these things with USD equivalents attached, the obvious question is: "Why would anybody risk a $1500 pretend spaceship in a pretend war rather than selling it and putting that money in their kids' college fund?"
posted by 256 at 4:39 PM on March 31, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by 256 at 4:39 PM on March 31, 2016 [3 favorites]
But this particular director found himself in a real world financial situation where his house was going to be foreclosed on and he was going to have trouble feeding and clothing his children.
That's amazing. And insane. I hope this sort of vignette is covered in EVE histories, to show how this game manages to interact with real life in the most poignant of ways.
posted by Apocryphon at 4:44 PM on March 31, 2016 [1 favorite]
That's amazing. And insane. I hope this sort of vignette is covered in EVE histories, to show how this game manages to interact with real life in the most poignant of ways.
posted by Apocryphon at 4:44 PM on March 31, 2016 [1 favorite]
If you're into big numbers, I just moved half a trillion isk worth of assets out of Vale for the people in my alliance. Made about 5% on it in fees.
posted by ryanrs at 4:51 PM on March 31, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by ryanrs at 4:51 PM on March 31, 2016 [3 favorites]
"What a time to be alive" seems to be, only semi-facetiously, the predominating attitude of the playerbase these days. The CFC has long been thought – since B-R two years ago, at least – to be largely unassailable. But now it looks like a major realignment is underway, and no one has the foggiest idea of what might replace it. Is this the sort of development that CCP envisioned when they began their sovereignty revision last year?
It is amusing how real-world history, either consciously (e.g. the CFC likening their viceroyalty program to the satrapies of the Persian Empire) or unconsciously, is recapitulated with the history of the player-built empires of New Eden. The chest-thumping of players going to war, as well as their proclamations of a quick victory, made me think of August 1914. In the broader scope, how the "blue donut" of 2014-15 has fractured reminds me of the statement from The Romance of the Three Kingdoms: "The [Cluster], long divided, must unite; long united, must divide." The politics of the player entities of EvE are by far the most interesting aspect of a game that a lot of people feel is actually pretty dull in terms of actual game-play. It's what helps make EvE more of a hobby for many, rather than just a game.
Personally, I've been frustrated this week in always just missing all the action. I and my corpmates long to dispense #freehugs among the warring factions.
posted by The Nutmeg of Consolation at 4:53 PM on March 31, 2016 [4 favorites]
It is amusing how real-world history, either consciously (e.g. the CFC likening their viceroyalty program to the satrapies of the Persian Empire) or unconsciously, is recapitulated with the history of the player-built empires of New Eden. The chest-thumping of players going to war, as well as their proclamations of a quick victory, made me think of August 1914. In the broader scope, how the "blue donut" of 2014-15 has fractured reminds me of the statement from The Romance of the Three Kingdoms: "The [Cluster], long divided, must unite; long united, must divide." The politics of the player entities of EvE are by far the most interesting aspect of a game that a lot of people feel is actually pretty dull in terms of actual game-play. It's what helps make EvE more of a hobby for many, rather than just a game.
Personally, I've been frustrated this week in always just missing all the action. I and my corpmates long to dispense #freehugs among the warring factions.
posted by The Nutmeg of Consolation at 4:53 PM on March 31, 2016 [4 favorites]
I hope this game is still around in 20 years when I retire and have that quantity of free time. It sounds fascinating and exhausting but that also describes my preschooler and I think there can be only one.
posted by soren_lorensen at 5:15 PM on March 31, 2016 [8 favorites]
posted by soren_lorensen at 5:15 PM on March 31, 2016 [8 favorites]
Someone from Spacemonkey's group ticked off one of the bankers behind I Want ISK, a player named 1ronBank, so badly that he hired an in-game mercenary group to harass the fleets in their sector.I am absurdly amused by this.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 5:20 PM on March 31, 2016 [2 favorites]
I hope this game is still around in 20 years when I retire and have that quantity of free time. It sounds fascinating and exhausting but that also describes my preschooler and I think there can be only one.
It's always amusing to be on an Op and have the fleet commander or whoever giving orders while also trying to feed/dandle a baby.
It's like FC DaBigRedBoat, long the Goonwaffe structure-shoot FC who is notorious for being a giant bore and kind of sexist, but who has a nice dog that we all love to hear drown him out with barks.
posted by the uncomplicated soups of my childhood at 5:51 PM on March 31, 2016 [4 favorites]
It's always amusing to be on an Op and have the fleet commander or whoever giving orders while also trying to feed/dandle a baby.
It's like FC DaBigRedBoat, long the Goonwaffe structure-shoot FC who is notorious for being a giant bore and kind of sexist, but who has a nice dog that we all love to hear drown him out with barks.
posted by the uncomplicated soups of my childhood at 5:51 PM on March 31, 2016 [4 favorites]
kind of?
posted by ryanrs at 6:14 PM on March 31, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by ryanrs at 6:14 PM on March 31, 2016 [2 favorites]
I really want to know if economists and business school people have studied the way businesses are set up on Eve. I'm sure they are - and if they're not, they should!
posted by divabat at 7:06 PM on March 31, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by divabat at 7:06 PM on March 31, 2016 [2 favorites]
The EVE economy is complex for a video game. But I'm not sure how interesting it would be to study. The lack of an in-game legal system prevents anything too complex from forming, because there is no safeguard against theft other than personal trust. EVE businesses look more like informal markets or criminal enterprises than Wall Street.
posted by ryanrs at 7:28 PM on March 31, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by ryanrs at 7:28 PM on March 31, 2016 [2 favorites]
I ran around with Goonwaffe for a little bit but it turns out I hate the actual experience of playing EVE. Still the best side to root for.
posted by Pope Guilty at 7:31 PM on March 31, 2016
posted by Pope Guilty at 7:31 PM on March 31, 2016
it turns out I hate the actual experience of playing EVE
Many EVE players would agree. "EVE is a terrible game" is a very common sentiment.
posted by ryanrs at 7:34 PM on March 31, 2016
Many EVE players would agree. "EVE is a terrible game" is a very common sentiment.
posted by ryanrs at 7:34 PM on March 31, 2016
any good-to-great science fiction that ever had any battles this size
Not sure how you'd rate classic Golden Age stuff but the Lensman series has fleet battles that put this to shame. Bring on the negaspheres and the cone of battle.
posted by N-stoff at 8:52 PM on March 31, 2016 [1 favorite]
Not sure how you'd rate classic Golden Age stuff but the Lensman series has fleet battles that put this to shame. Bring on the negaspheres and the cone of battle.
posted by N-stoff at 8:52 PM on March 31, 2016 [1 favorite]
The EVE economy is complex for a video game. But I'm not sure how interesting it would be to study.
Yanis Varoufakis, Greece's recently failed finance minister, used to be the chief economist at CCP. The Eve economy is robust and market-driven enough to be interesting, while having the virtue of being entirely virtual and self-contained. Lots of natural experiments being run there, some of which Varoufakis was reporting on. I think the RMT trade via Plex makes it doubly interesting since it has a (limited) outlet to actual dollars.
posted by Nelson at 8:59 PM on March 31, 2016 [2 favorites]
Yanis Varoufakis, Greece's recently failed finance minister, used to be the chief economist at CCP. The Eve economy is robust and market-driven enough to be interesting, while having the virtue of being entirely virtual and self-contained. Lots of natural experiments being run there, some of which Varoufakis was reporting on. I think the RMT trade via Plex makes it doubly interesting since it has a (limited) outlet to actual dollars.
posted by Nelson at 8:59 PM on March 31, 2016 [2 favorites]
ryanrs: "The lack of an in-game legal system prevents anything too complex from forming, because there is no safeguard against theft other than personal trust."
Now this would be interesting—or extremely miserable: playing an EVE judge.
posted by Conrad Cornelius o'Donald o'Dell at 9:20 PM on March 31, 2016 [1 favorite]
Now this would be interesting—or extremely miserable: playing an EVE judge.
posted by Conrad Cornelius o'Donald o'Dell at 9:20 PM on March 31, 2016 [1 favorite]
Playing Goonfleet was a lot more fun than EVE. Not sure how anybody plays the core game, futzing around trying to fit modules onto your starting Velator and getting killed in the tutorial because the UI is incomprehensible without a good corp guide at setting it up.
posted by fifteen schnitzengruben is my limit at 9:52 PM on March 31, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by fifteen schnitzengruben is my limit at 9:52 PM on March 31, 2016 [2 favorites]
The large alliances do have rudimentary justice systems that punish members scamming other members, etc. Basically if you're a big enough asshole to allies, your alliance diplomats will force you to make it right on pain of getting kicked from the alliance. Getting kicked is sort of a big deal in EVE, much more so than getting kicked off a team in most games.
One person in my own alliance recently scammed me via a loophole in how I process alliance courier contracts (also I was sloppy). So I baited him into clicking a url to a web server I controlled, got his IP, and the alliance leadership ran it against their voice server logs to tie it to his main char.
He had a so-so explanation/lie about how he was merely stupid, not actively malicious, so rather than kicking and blacklisting him, they fined him 2 billion isk ($35) and gave it to me. All parties felt this was fair-ish, and he and I still do business in-game.
posted by ryanrs at 9:59 PM on March 31, 2016 [11 favorites]
One person in my own alliance recently scammed me via a loophole in how I process alliance courier contracts (also I was sloppy). So I baited him into clicking a url to a web server I controlled, got his IP, and the alliance leadership ran it against their voice server logs to tie it to his main char.
He had a so-so explanation/lie about how he was merely stupid, not actively malicious, so rather than kicking and blacklisting him, they fined him 2 billion isk ($35) and gave it to me. All parties felt this was fair-ish, and he and I still do business in-game.
posted by ryanrs at 9:59 PM on March 31, 2016 [11 favorites]
Someone from Spacemonkey's group ticked off one of the bankers behind I Want ISK, a player named 1ronBank, so badly that he hired an in-game mercenary group to harass the fleets in their sector
Wouldn't it be easier to crowdfund a tank, take over Iceland, and then strongarm CCP as a means of achieving your goals?
There's probably not a rule about it.
posted by sebastienbailard at 11:30 PM on March 31, 2016 [2 favorites]
Wouldn't it be easier to crowdfund a tank, take over Iceland, and then strongarm CCP as a means of achieving your goals?
There's probably not a rule about it.
posted by sebastienbailard at 11:30 PM on March 31, 2016 [2 favorites]
The only hug battles in space SF that I can think of off the top of my head is Weber, who is fun, but needs a serious editor and is writing Horatio Hornblower IN SPACE!
What, you don't like reading chapters upon chapters describing the path and ultimate fate of every missile and counter missile fired in a single battle?
So if I haven't read the Lensman books since I was in middle school -- is that a recommendation to re-read them now, or will I be horribly saddened by their many -isms? Same with H. Beam Piper?
"Every Lensman is impervious to drugs! Now smoke up, men." They're 1940ties books with 1940ties attitudes but at least Doc Smith never went out of his way to be deliberately offensive.
H. Beam Piper is great. As you know Bob, Piper was a libertarian writer in the Heinleinian mold, but one who took his ideology seriously enough to shoot himself when he ran into debt rather than rely on charity. Which, all joking aside, was rather a tragedy as his writing career had just taken off and had he had a competent agent he might've been alive and writing today.
For me his writing holds up even when looked at it with modern eyes; there's background radiation levels of -isms but on the whole Piper seems to have been blessed with the brilliant insight that women might do just as well as men at certain professions.
His writing is rather pessimistic though, in that rightwing way that is convinced the best times are behind us and nothing good can come from meddling with the natural order of things, a pessimism that comes out at its strongest in Space Viking.
posted by MartinWisse at 12:32 AM on April 1, 2016 [5 favorites]
What, you don't like reading chapters upon chapters describing the path and ultimate fate of every missile and counter missile fired in a single battle?
So if I haven't read the Lensman books since I was in middle school -- is that a recommendation to re-read them now, or will I be horribly saddened by their many -isms? Same with H. Beam Piper?
"Every Lensman is impervious to drugs! Now smoke up, men." They're 1940ties books with 1940ties attitudes but at least Doc Smith never went out of his way to be deliberately offensive.
H. Beam Piper is great. As you know Bob, Piper was a libertarian writer in the Heinleinian mold, but one who took his ideology seriously enough to shoot himself when he ran into debt rather than rely on charity. Which, all joking aside, was rather a tragedy as his writing career had just taken off and had he had a competent agent he might've been alive and writing today.
For me his writing holds up even when looked at it with modern eyes; there's background radiation levels of -isms but on the whole Piper seems to have been blessed with the brilliant insight that women might do just as well as men at certain professions.
His writing is rather pessimistic though, in that rightwing way that is convinced the best times are behind us and nothing good can come from meddling with the natural order of things, a pessimism that comes out at its strongest in Space Viking.
posted by MartinWisse at 12:32 AM on April 1, 2016 [5 favorites]
Is this like one of those moments when you realize the secrets of the universe are embedded somewhere near the 50 billionth digit of pi?
A responsible simmer is going to put the magic numbers up past the ̸̟̬̫͊͆ͨ̍̑̃ͧͅrͤ̈́͘e̤͖̜̻̗̝͉͗̂ͣ͑ͨ͑͝ḋ͙̪͋̈ͬ̈́͡ͅaͣ͢c̝̭̼̊ͦ̇̄͘t̹̱̟̱͛̔͠e̩̪͓ͭͅd̞̦̳̝̗̎͒̐́ͮͭ̚ digits of pi, for compassionate reasons as much as technical ones. But 50 billion digits is good enough to prevent most computing environments from crashing when sub-simmers start recursing, although I wouldn't trust any results from that sim.
But for unit tests or if you're a casual simmer just running a quick scratchpad earth, it doesn't really matter.
It's easy enough to see if you're in a low-resource sim: the speed of light is finite, monotheistic religions reboot every few hundred years when they hit memory limits or exhaust local sublimity, and you see soft social pressure not to calculate more than about 40 digits of pi.
If you or someone you love is slumming in a low-resource sim (statistically the most common kind), remember to exit before they invent computing machinery and redline their resources subsimming environments.
posted by sebastienbailard at 2:04 AM on April 1, 2016 [15 favorites]
A responsible simmer is going to put the magic numbers up past the ̸̟̬̫͊͆ͨ̍̑̃ͧͅrͤ̈́͘e̤͖̜̻̗̝͉͗̂ͣ͑ͨ͑͝ḋ͙̪͋̈ͬ̈́͡ͅaͣ͢c̝̭̼̊ͦ̇̄͘t̹̱̟̱͛̔͠e̩̪͓ͭͅd̞̦̳̝̗̎͒̐́ͮͭ̚ digits of pi, for compassionate reasons as much as technical ones. But 50 billion digits is good enough to prevent most computing environments from crashing when sub-simmers start recursing, although I wouldn't trust any results from that sim.
But for unit tests or if you're a casual simmer just running a quick scratchpad earth, it doesn't really matter.
It's easy enough to see if you're in a low-resource sim: the speed of light is finite, monotheistic religions reboot every few hundred years when they hit memory limits or exhaust local sublimity, and you see soft social pressure not to calculate more than about 40 digits of pi.
If you or someone you love is slumming in a low-resource sim (statistically the most common kind), remember to exit before they invent computing machinery and redline their resources subsimming environments.
posted by sebastienbailard at 2:04 AM on April 1, 2016 [15 favorites]
Speaking of messing with the sim, check out Grid-fu: A Practical Manual. It's a Goonswarm-authored paper on how to manipulate EVE's spatial database to make weird things happen. It will probably make zero sense unless you're a fairly knowledgable EVE player to begin with. (It's also out-of-date and useless since CCP introduced giant grids last year.)
posted by ryanrs at 2:16 AM on April 1, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by ryanrs at 2:16 AM on April 1, 2016 [5 favorites]
I think there are two key drivers for this, the first being the Mittani's rebranding of Goonswarm (et al) as a literal evil empire and the second being the rules changes around sovereignty. CCP basically made it much easier to nibble at the flanks of an empire.
It's going to be a fantastic drama engine.
posted by Sebmojo at 3:55 AM on April 1, 2016 [1 favorite]
It's going to be a fantastic drama engine.
posted by Sebmojo at 3:55 AM on April 1, 2016 [1 favorite]
The design goals of the sovereignty change, from my second link above.
Goal #1: As much as possible, ensure that the process of fighting over a star system is enjoyable and fascinating for all the players involved
Goal #2: Clarify the process of taking, holding and fighting over star systems
Goal #3: Minimize the systemic pressure to bring more people or larger ships than would be required to simply defeat your enemies on the field of battle.
Goal #4: Drastically reduce the time and effort required to conquer undefended space.
Goal #5: Provide significant strategic benefits from living in your space.
Goal #6: Spread the largest Sovereignty battles over multiple star systems to take advantage of New Eden’s varied geography and to better manage server load.
Goal #7: Any new Sovereignty system should be adaptable enough to be rapidly updated and to incorporate future changes to EVE.
posted by Sebmojo at 4:00 AM on April 1, 2016 [1 favorite]
Goal #1: As much as possible, ensure that the process of fighting over a star system is enjoyable and fascinating for all the players involved
Goal #2: Clarify the process of taking, holding and fighting over star systems
Goal #3: Minimize the systemic pressure to bring more people or larger ships than would be required to simply defeat your enemies on the field of battle.
Goal #4: Drastically reduce the time and effort required to conquer undefended space.
Goal #5: Provide significant strategic benefits from living in your space.
Goal #6: Spread the largest Sovereignty battles over multiple star systems to take advantage of New Eden’s varied geography and to better manage server load.
Goal #7: Any new Sovereignty system should be adaptable enough to be rapidly updated and to incorporate future changes to EVE.
posted by Sebmojo at 4:00 AM on April 1, 2016 [1 favorite]
Sorry for the triple, but this song from the Imperial propaganda arm, lamenting the betrayal of their ally CO2 is legit heartrending.
Also, this is a good primer in the Imperium.
posted by Sebmojo at 4:04 AM on April 1, 2016 [1 favorite]
Also, this is a good primer in the Imperium.
posted by Sebmojo at 4:04 AM on April 1, 2016 [1 favorite]
it turns out I hate the actual experience of playing EVE
It turns out I get more enjoyment out of watching a YouTube video of somebody skilled playing a walk-through of a game than I do out of actually playing the game in question. Only exception to this is when I wander around the terrain in GTA-V, with minimal NPC interaction while walking on a treadmill, #cheapholodeck.
posted by Standeck at 9:03 AM on April 1, 2016 [3 favorites]
It turns out I get more enjoyment out of watching a YouTube video of somebody skilled playing a walk-through of a game than I do out of actually playing the game in question. Only exception to this is when I wander around the terrain in GTA-V, with minimal NPC interaction while walking on a treadmill, #cheapholodeck.
posted by Standeck at 9:03 AM on April 1, 2016 [3 favorites]
Talking about this at work flushed out an Eve player on my team, so I got to ask him a ton of questions about this. Cool!
posted by wenestvedt at 11:22 AM on April 1, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by wenestvedt at 11:22 AM on April 1, 2016 [3 favorites]
Another official and in-character news report was released this afternoon. And Mittens's uncharacteristically brief "State of the Goonion" address indicated that CFC would be withdrawing even further north. Fascinating times.
posted by The Nutmeg of Consolation at 11:44 AM on April 1, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by The Nutmeg of Consolation at 11:44 AM on April 1, 2016 [1 favorite]
The last time I played Eve I was flying with Merch Industrial, and we were members of the GoonSwarm Alliance. With all the splits and changes, who is now the "Goonfleet" that I used to know?
posted by hellphish at 3:29 PM on April 1, 2016
posted by hellphish at 3:29 PM on April 1, 2016
If you are interested in what EVE diplomacy looks like from the inside, GSF Corps Diplomatique, the diplomatic arm of Goonswarm Federation, has released a series of annotated chatlogs on how the alliance Circle of Two (CO2) has long been a pain in the butt, eventually culminating in their leaving the Imperium.
As you read, keep in mind that this document was prepared to present GSF's side of the story, and was specifically crafted and released as a PR move.
Circle of Two are traitors.
warning: 100 pages of petty bickering
posted by ryanrs at 10:47 PM on April 2, 2016 [2 favorites]
As you read, keep in mind that this document was prepared to present GSF's side of the story, and was specifically crafted and released as a PR move.
Circle of Two are traitors.
warning: 100 pages of petty bickering
posted by ryanrs at 10:47 PM on April 2, 2016 [2 favorites]
That new history of Eve Online I mentioned is now for sale. Empires of EVE: A History of the Great Wars of EVE Online, by Andrew Groen. It's a solidly produced and well written book. Here's a teaser video for one story if you just want a few minutes' video entertainment. (Sorry to sound like an ad; I backed the project on Kickstarter and it delivered even better than I hoped.)
posted by Nelson at 9:43 AM on April 4, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by Nelson at 9:43 AM on April 4, 2016 [3 favorites]
I honestly kinda want to buy that book - will it wind up being deathly boring if I know nothing about EVE, though?
posted by showbiz_liz at 10:06 AM on April 4, 2016
posted by showbiz_liz at 10:06 AM on April 4, 2016
From the excerpts I've read, I get the feeling it would be sort of like reading a detailed naval warfare history book if you knew nothing about ships. Yes, you might get a little lost if you don't know the difference between a corvette and a destroyer, but you'll still be able to follow it.
And the politics and wide sweeping campaigns are the interesting part, which anyone can understand (modulo some EVE-specific logistical stuff like jump bridges and sovereignty structures). I don't think it will be boring so long as you are willing to make the cognitive leap that pretend space war is worth reading about.
posted by 256 at 3:23 PM on April 4, 2016 [1 favorite]
And the politics and wide sweeping campaigns are the interesting part, which anyone can understand (modulo some EVE-specific logistical stuff like jump bridges and sovereignty structures). I don't think it will be boring so long as you are willing to make the cognitive leap that pretend space war is worth reading about.
posted by 256 at 3:23 PM on April 4, 2016 [1 favorite]
I don't know much about Eve (I've never played, but I've read threads and articles about it). I bought the book this weekend and read it. The Kindle edition doesn't come with a map, but I guess you can look at one online. I found it pretty enjoyable and read it all (it's not super long) in a few hours. With the emphasis on leaders and morale, I think it reads more like the Silmarillion than like a standard work of military history. The author also explains the basic mechanics as they come up (the different types of ships and their significance, etc.).
posted by Monday, stony Monday at 3:55 PM on April 4, 2016
posted by Monday, stony Monday at 3:55 PM on April 4, 2016
kind of?
posted by ryanrs at 6:14 PM on March 31
I dpon't go on Boat Ops because they're always secret structure shoots, I'm sure they are now still even secret structure shoots somehow. v0v
posted by the uncomplicated soups of my childhood at 5:46 PM on April 4, 2016
posted by ryanrs at 6:14 PM on March 31
I dpon't go on Boat Ops because they're always secret structure shoots, I'm sure they are now still even secret structure shoots somehow. v0v
posted by the uncomplicated soups of my childhood at 5:46 PM on April 4, 2016
Whoops, looks like I missed this thread early.
Dunk Dinkle with Brave Newbies Xing up in the thread.
Any of you going to FanFest?
posted by Argyle at 5:30 PM on April 5, 2016
Dunk Dinkle with Brave Newbies Xing up in the thread.
Any of you going to FanFest?
posted by Argyle at 5:30 PM on April 5, 2016
GSF CEO UPDATE: THE WAR OF SOVLESS AGGRESSION
Directly out of the mouth of Goonswarm, mind, but still, this is definitely suggesting exciting things. If they're talking about going full 2006-era hellwar, it'll be time to grab the popcorn and watch things get fascinatingly nasty. I mean, that was when you had power cut to Titan pilot's houses and all.
posted by CrystalDave at 7:23 PM on April 5, 2016 [2 favorites]
Directly out of the mouth of Goonswarm, mind, but still, this is definitely suggesting exciting things. If they're talking about going full 2006-era hellwar, it'll be time to grab the popcorn and watch things get fascinatingly nasty. I mean, that was when you had power cut to Titan pilot's houses and all.
posted by CrystalDave at 7:23 PM on April 5, 2016 [2 favorites]
Oh jeez, that's the kind of thing that makes a guy re-up his account. Hmmm, I wonder what the doctrine of choice is these days? Battleships are passe, last time I played it was all stealth bombers....
posted by fifteen schnitzengruben is my limit at 7:37 PM on April 5, 2016
posted by fifteen schnitzengruben is my limit at 7:37 PM on April 5, 2016
GSF CEO UPDATE: THE WAR OF SOVLESS AGGRESSION
Oh this is just amaaaaziiiing.
posted by Pope Guilty at 9:55 PM on April 5, 2016
Oh this is just amaaaaziiiing.
posted by Pope Guilty at 9:55 PM on April 5, 2016
Fifteen, the Imperium is flying fleets based around each of the following dps ships: rail megas, rail proteuses, autocannon machariels, arty canes, rapid light caracals, light missile jackdaws, torpedo bombers, arty/rail interceptors. Lots of different fleet type for different sorts of engagements. Pretty much all armor on the Serious Business doctrines.
posted by ryanrs at 10:01 PM on April 5, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by ryanrs at 10:01 PM on April 5, 2016 [2 favorites]
I am totally engrossed by this war declaration. Probably says something terrible about me.
posted by showbiz_liz at 10:26 PM on April 5, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by showbiz_liz at 10:26 PM on April 5, 2016 [1 favorite]
This situation is especially interesting because the Imperium is sort of losing the war so far, so if they get their shit together and come out on top, they aren't going to stop with just winning. No, they are going to be mad at these people forever.
posted by ryanrs at 10:39 PM on April 5, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by ryanrs at 10:39 PM on April 5, 2016 [2 favorites]
CrystalDave: I mean, that was when you had power cut to Titan pilot's houses and all.
Do you mean people were driving around and cutting the power to other player's real world houses so they couldn't play the game?
posted by bluecore at 5:33 AM on April 6, 2016
Do you mean people were driving around and cutting the power to other player's real world houses so they couldn't play the game?
posted by bluecore at 5:33 AM on April 6, 2016
Do you mean people were driving around and cutting the power to other player's real world houses so they couldn't play the game?
Perhaps apocryphally, this ALMOST happened once.
posted by 256 at 6:00 AM on April 6, 2016
Perhaps apocryphally, this ALMOST happened once.
posted by 256 at 6:00 AM on April 6, 2016
If you or someone you love is slumming in a low-resource sim (statistically the most common kind), remember to exit before they invent computing machinery and redline their resources subsimming environments.
It's more likely than you think.
posted by Evilspork at 11:08 AM on April 6, 2016
It's more likely than you think.
posted by Evilspork at 11:08 AM on April 6, 2016
The power cut never happened, and definitely wouldn't happen today since you can just DDoS them instead.
posted by ryanrs at 4:05 PM on April 6, 2016
posted by ryanrs at 4:05 PM on April 6, 2016
So I'm on the Imperium side of this conflict, and we sure aren't winning. But on a personal level, the war profiteering has been absolutely tremendous. I knew before this all started that I'd make some serious isk if the empire fell, but I didn't know it would be this much. I've made enough isk in the last two weeks to run my 6 accounts for a year. By the time this is all over, I think I might clear 100B.
posted by ryanrs at 5:50 PM on April 16, 2016 [7 favorites]
posted by ryanrs at 5:50 PM on April 16, 2016 [7 favorites]
These days I think of myself as a jump freighter mercenary. Sort of a logistics contractor for war-torn regions and alliances operating under threat of conquest. I don't live in the area that is currently being fought over, and I am not a member of the alliances under fire. But I have put a couple temporary characters in their corps so I can help them evacuate the region.
tldr: their logistics are fucked and they are paying me over a thousand dollars to un-fuck it.
As per usual, EVE is even stranger than you imagined.
posted by ryanrs at 1:02 PM on April 17, 2016 [5 favorites]
tldr: their logistics are fucked and they are paying me over a thousand dollars to un-fuck it.
As per usual, EVE is even stranger than you imagined.
posted by ryanrs at 1:02 PM on April 17, 2016 [5 favorites]
The Imperium's logistics are fucked? I thought large-scale coordination was one of the things GOON excelled at.
posted by Pope Guilty at 5:32 AM on April 18, 2016
posted by Pope Guilty at 5:32 AM on April 18, 2016
Yeah well they also thought they were good at winning wars.
Mittani wrote the book on EVE fail cascades, as they are known. It's a combination of burnout, low morale, and in-fighting that cascades when an external threat applies pressure to the organization. This is basically what's happening right now.
Fortunately I am blessed with a viciously mercenary attitude to this war, so my morale is higher than ever, buoyed by suitcases of money.
posted by ryanrs at 12:40 PM on April 18, 2016 [5 favorites]
Mittani wrote the book on EVE fail cascades, as they are known. It's a combination of burnout, low morale, and in-fighting that cascades when an external threat applies pressure to the organization. This is basically what's happening right now.
Fortunately I am blessed with a viciously mercenary attitude to this war, so my morale is higher than ever, buoyed by suitcases of money.
posted by ryanrs at 12:40 PM on April 18, 2016 [5 favorites]
As an example of GSF leadership dysfunction, they never actually announced an evacuation. People just sort of figured it out when they saw enemy fleets roaming their space unopposed and space stations getting conquered.
The evacuation effort, such as it is, is being run entirely by private shipping corps with no official backing from the Goonswarm leadership or military command. It's like if an American city was evacuated and the only people in charge were FedEx and Greyhound.
Contrast this leadership paralysis and lack of communication with my announcement to my corp when it was decided that we probably couldn't defend our region:
----------------------------------
Time to start packing!
I recommend you remove all non-essential assets out of Vale. SRNE has an office in Otsasai 8-3, lots of stuff will be moved there. Jita is also a good choice. It would be nice to keep some combat ships in TVN. Other than those, get the rest out.
You can use alliance couriers or assign couriers directly to Ryan Rs.
275 isk/m3 to Jita
100 isk/m3 to Otsasai 8-3
No containers please.
Sent by [SRNE] Ryan Rs to [SRNE] at 2016-03-26 20:12
----------------------------------
Double ping so you know shit is serious.
GTFO.
Sent by [SRNE] Ryan Rs to [SRNE] at 2016-03-26 20:16
----------------------------------
Those pings were followed by more detailed instructions, repeated several times a day, with plenty of other pings covering situations that came up.
It was a hectic several days, but we got just about everything of value to safety before the region fell. People were even contacting unsubscribed friends through facebook and SMS to resub and make arrangements for transport. People who were traveling and could not get online were told to send their login info to a trusted friend, and they would be taken care of.
I am proud that when the shit hit the fan, my alliance did not hesitate to tell our members exactly what to do to save their assets and get safe.
Goonswarm leadership did not do that.
posted by ryanrs at 1:34 PM on April 18, 2016 [4 favorites]
The evacuation effort, such as it is, is being run entirely by private shipping corps with no official backing from the Goonswarm leadership or military command. It's like if an American city was evacuated and the only people in charge were FedEx and Greyhound.
Contrast this leadership paralysis and lack of communication with my announcement to my corp when it was decided that we probably couldn't defend our region:
----------------------------------
Time to start packing!
I recommend you remove all non-essential assets out of Vale. SRNE has an office in Otsasai 8-3, lots of stuff will be moved there. Jita is also a good choice. It would be nice to keep some combat ships in TVN. Other than those, get the rest out.
You can use alliance couriers or assign couriers directly to Ryan Rs.
275 isk/m3 to Jita
100 isk/m3 to Otsasai 8-3
No containers please.
Sent by [SRNE] Ryan Rs to [SRNE] at 2016-03-26 20:12
----------------------------------
Double ping so you know shit is serious.
GTFO.
Sent by [SRNE] Ryan Rs to [SRNE] at 2016-03-26 20:16
----------------------------------
Those pings were followed by more detailed instructions, repeated several times a day, with plenty of other pings covering situations that came up.
It was a hectic several days, but we got just about everything of value to safety before the region fell. People were even contacting unsubscribed friends through facebook and SMS to resub and make arrangements for transport. People who were traveling and could not get online were told to send their login info to a trusted friend, and they would be taken care of.
I am proud that when the shit hit the fan, my alliance did not hesitate to tell our members exactly what to do to save their assets and get safe.
Goonswarm leadership did not do that.
posted by ryanrs at 1:34 PM on April 18, 2016 [4 favorites]
The results, just five days later:
----------------------------------
TVN couriers are just about wrapped up. Thank you all for your business in a difficult time. I'm so happy I could get so many people's assets to safety.
Sent by [SRNE] Ryan Rs to all at 2016-03-31 02:10:01
posted by ryanrs at 1:36 PM on April 18, 2016
----------------------------------
TVN couriers are just about wrapped up. Thank you all for your business in a difficult time. I'm so happy I could get so many people's assets to safety.
Sent by [SRNE] Ryan Rs to all at 2016-03-31 02:10:01
posted by ryanrs at 1:36 PM on April 18, 2016
Jesus, that's an incredible failure of leadership. Grats on your profits, though. :D
posted by Pope Guilty at 1:47 PM on April 18, 2016
posted by Pope Guilty at 1:47 PM on April 18, 2016
We haven't even raised shipping rates above normal peacetime levels. The huge profits I've been talking about are just from the massive volume and some people adding big bonuses in hopes of getting priority service. But we're doing an ok job of getting everyone out, so even those bonuses are not really necessary.
posted by ryanrs at 1:56 PM on April 18, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by ryanrs at 1:56 PM on April 18, 2016 [1 favorite]
Deklein evac finished, more or less. I personally moved 1.2T isk out of Vale and 1.5T out of Deklein. That's US$47,250 to the rest of you.
I also disbanded my corp, freeing me to go try something new in EVE.
posted by ryanrs at 12:46 PM on April 22, 2016 [2 favorites]
I also disbanded my corp, freeing me to go try something new in EVE.
posted by ryanrs at 12:46 PM on April 22, 2016 [2 favorites]
New Cinematic trailer for the Citadels expansion. Should be exciting, especially with the new status symbol of "These will be expensive, but there's one that'll be so expensive that only one can be built in New Eden at a time".
posted by CrystalDave at 12:50 PM on April 22, 2016
posted by CrystalDave at 12:50 PM on April 22, 2016
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posted by indubitable at 10:47 AM on March 31, 2016 [11 favorites]