Who's the hero of the story?
April 20, 2016 8:58 AM Subscribe
One of these days, we'll have a show or movie where the hero gets himself Ned Starked and the female sidekick takes up the lead for the last 1/2 or 2/3 of the movie/series. I hope sooner than later, it seems like such a fun send-up of this trope. Or I bet someone in this very thread will tell me it's already happened, in such-and-such under-recognized movie.
Best I can think of is iZombie having fridged a male love-interest to motivate the female protagonist.
posted by explosion at 9:27 AM on April 20, 2016 [6 favorites]
Best I can think of is iZombie having fridged a male love-interest to motivate the female protagonist.
posted by explosion at 9:27 AM on April 20, 2016 [6 favorites]
Looking at my shelves....yeah, not many female leads. Gives me another reason to adore Philip Pullman's His Dark Materials series, though--his male and female protagonists seem evenly matched, and they each have their own Very Important Magic Item
posted by Baethan at 9:28 AM on April 20, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Baethan at 9:28 AM on April 20, 2016 [1 favorite]
On the one hand: Buffy, Xena, and Scully all buck this premise.
On the other hand: .....yeah, those three are the only ones I can think of off the top of my head.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 9:28 AM on April 20, 2016
On the other hand: .....yeah, those three are the only ones I can think of off the top of my head.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 9:28 AM on April 20, 2016
Related trend: the male hero saves the day (and the female sidekick), but she gets an ostensibly feminist moment where she issues a probably redundant "just to make sure" blow to the villain. I.e., the villain is effectively defeated and dying, but gets to raise his head once more Jason Voorhees-style, only to be shot a final time by the female character. Only moments ago, they were going straight white knight/damsel-in-distress, but then, hold onto your panties, girls, she gets to save him right back! It's insulting because they want to go with the traditionally gendered roles, but toss you a bone at the very end so that they can still claim strong female characters.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 9:29 AM on April 20, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by DirtyOldTown at 9:29 AM on April 20, 2016 [5 favorites]
Yep. Yep, yep, yep, yep.
However, I'm not sure if The Magicians is the perfect example of this trope or the worst since my interpretation is that the point of the way Quentin is portrayed is to demonstrate that it IS a trope.
posted by tofu_crouton at 9:29 AM on April 20, 2016 [1 favorite]
However, I'm not sure if The Magicians is the perfect example of this trope or the worst since my interpretation is that the point of the way Quentin is portrayed is to demonstrate that it IS a trope.
posted by tofu_crouton at 9:29 AM on April 20, 2016 [1 favorite]
Orphan Black did kill off the most conventionally heroic of the lead's various paramours, but he was definitely never the lead.
posted by tavella at 9:29 AM on April 20, 2016
posted by tavella at 9:29 AM on April 20, 2016
One of these days, we'll have a show or movie where the hero gets himself Ned Starked and the female sidekick takes up the lead for the last 1/2 or 2/3 of the movie/series. I hope sooner than later, it seems like such a fun send-up of this trope. Or I bet someone in this very thread will tell me it's already happened, in such-and-such under-recognized movie.
A person could argue that the Project Greenlight horror flick Feast pulls this trick off, arguably more than once. The characters are even given titles on screen to denote when/how this changes.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 9:29 AM on April 20, 2016 [2 favorites]
A person could argue that the Project Greenlight horror flick Feast pulls this trick off, arguably more than once. The characters are even given titles on screen to denote when/how this changes.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 9:29 AM on April 20, 2016 [2 favorites]
I think Lev Grossman has accepted that blame for Quentin in The Magicians. It is really only his sustained belief in a presumed-imaginary world for kids that makes him relevant.
There are some options left out of that list that are interesting to talk about, though. Claire Fraser from Outlander is largely self-saving (and as a 1940s-trained nurse in the 1700s, she saves a shitload of other people too), except for the fact that she literally has to belong to a man to be safe in that world. He is sort of a hypercompetent sidekick, but most of the won days are either theirs jointly or hers alone. But, to Mogur's thesis, that's a story originally written more or less exclusively for women, being made into a tv show with a strong female gaze even though I'd say only about 1/3 of the executive shot-callers and writers are women.
posted by Lyn Never at 9:30 AM on April 20, 2016 [1 favorite]
There are some options left out of that list that are interesting to talk about, though. Claire Fraser from Outlander is largely self-saving (and as a 1940s-trained nurse in the 1700s, she saves a shitload of other people too), except for the fact that she literally has to belong to a man to be safe in that world. He is sort of a hypercompetent sidekick, but most of the won days are either theirs jointly or hers alone. But, to Mogur's thesis, that's a story originally written more or less exclusively for women, being made into a tv show with a strong female gaze even though I'd say only about 1/3 of the executive shot-callers and writers are women.
posted by Lyn Never at 9:30 AM on April 20, 2016 [1 favorite]
In a racial/ethnic dimension rather than gender, Big Trouble in Little China is about a sidekick who doesn't understand that he's the sidekick because he's the white guy.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 9:35 AM on April 20, 2016 [35 favorites]
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 9:35 AM on April 20, 2016 [35 favorites]
Scott Pilgrim is another one that does that to the female sidekick, and even more annoyingly tries to get away with the 'we lampshade it so it totally doesn't count' maneuver. Fail.
posted by tavella at 9:36 AM on April 20, 2016
posted by tavella at 9:36 AM on April 20, 2016
Oh, wait, Jessica Jones.
...There still should be way more.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 9:36 AM on April 20, 2016 [1 favorite]
...There still should be way more.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 9:36 AM on April 20, 2016 [1 favorite]
Penny *routinely* saves the day in Inspector Gadget, and either escapes being kidnapped herself or is rescued by *her* competent sidekick (who is male, but is also a dog; not sure how that tracks).
Also, a little weird to see a vaguely memorable kid's cartoon that ran quietly in syndication in the 80s propped up between two of the heaviest-hitting and genre-defining mass-appeal science fiction films of all time.
posted by belarius at 9:45 AM on April 20, 2016 [2 favorites]
Also, a little weird to see a vaguely memorable kid's cartoon that ran quietly in syndication in the 80s propped up between two of the heaviest-hitting and genre-defining mass-appeal science fiction films of all time.
posted by belarius at 9:45 AM on April 20, 2016 [2 favorites]
The authors are so attached to their clever thesis that they see it in a bunch of places where it doesn't apply. Not every "hyper-competent" female sidekick is Hermione Granger. BTW, SPOILERS.
That infographic also claims that Leia is "more competent" than Luke Skywalker in Star Wars. Uh, how do you figure? Granted, she's a pretty good shot, an effective leader, and a lot wittier, but Luke is the ace pilot with the Force who blows up the Death Star.
Finally, Inspector Gadget does not support their thesis, even though Penny is more capable but doesn't get the credit for saving the day. That's the whole point of Inspector Gadget. The characters in the show might think that Gadget is the hero, but the viewer knows that Penny is the real hero.
Sure, Hermione is smarter and mostly more capable than Harry, and yes, Harry only gets to be the hero because he's the Chosen One and was lucky enough to inherit a really useful invisibility cloak. Nevertheless, the Harry Potter series was written by a woman who is now one of the wealthiest people on Earth and is filled with complicated, multi-dimensional female characters. Feminist hand-wringing about its characters is pretty myopic.
posted by LightStruk at 9:47 AM on April 20, 2016 [4 favorites]
We have Trinity in The Matrix, who is so heart-stoppingly competent during our first encounter with her, and who is allowed to accomplish so little throughout the rest of the trilogy while Neo repeatedly saves humanity, that film critic Tasha Robinson named the Trinity Syndrome after her.So many problems with this. Trinity accomplishes a ton in all three films, including freeing Morpheus as an equal partner with Neo, figuring out how to shoot an agent ("dodge this"), disabling a huge section of the power grid, and freeing Neo from the clutches of the Trainman. Their infographic claims that Trinity is "more competent" than Neo, which is laughably wrong given how rapidly Neo acquires God-like abilities. Neo is the hero of the Matrix films and deserves to be, not because he's the "chosen one", but because he chooses to be a hero through self-sacrifice and struggle.
That infographic also claims that Leia is "more competent" than Luke Skywalker in Star Wars. Uh, how do you figure? Granted, she's a pretty good shot, an effective leader, and a lot wittier, but Luke is the ace pilot with the Force who blows up the Death Star.
Finally, Inspector Gadget does not support their thesis, even though Penny is more capable but doesn't get the credit for saving the day. That's the whole point of Inspector Gadget. The characters in the show might think that Gadget is the hero, but the viewer knows that Penny is the real hero.
Sure, Hermione is smarter and mostly more capable than Harry, and yes, Harry only gets to be the hero because he's the Chosen One and was lucky enough to inherit a really useful invisibility cloak. Nevertheless, the Harry Potter series was written by a woman who is now one of the wealthiest people on Earth and is filled with complicated, multi-dimensional female characters. Feminist hand-wringing about its characters is pretty myopic.
posted by LightStruk at 9:47 AM on April 20, 2016 [4 favorites]
...really?
A) Neo, Luke, and Harry are ALL "the chosen one". Like literally, there are prophecies about all three. None of them are particularly special because of how hard they try and how much they sacrifice. You think Trinity didn't sacrifice anything for the fight? It was literally all she did; her entire purpose for being. You think Leia didn't risk everything to get intelligence to the rebels?
B) Leia is demonstrably more competent. When we meet Luke, he is literally a farm hand out in the middle of nowhere, while Leia is a politician, a resistance leader, and a strategist (and is also force-sensitive, fwiw). Luke is good at flying planes because of the handy plot device/prophecy that makes him so much better at The Force than anyone else.
C) Women can reinforce misogynistic tropes too!
posted by specialagentwebb at 10:07 AM on April 20, 2016 [25 favorites]
A) Neo, Luke, and Harry are ALL "the chosen one". Like literally, there are prophecies about all three. None of them are particularly special because of how hard they try and how much they sacrifice. You think Trinity didn't sacrifice anything for the fight? It was literally all she did; her entire purpose for being. You think Leia didn't risk everything to get intelligence to the rebels?
B) Leia is demonstrably more competent. When we meet Luke, he is literally a farm hand out in the middle of nowhere, while Leia is a politician, a resistance leader, and a strategist (and is also force-sensitive, fwiw). Luke is good at flying planes because of the handy plot device/prophecy that makes him so much better at The Force than anyone else.
C) Women can reinforce misogynistic tropes too!
posted by specialagentwebb at 10:07 AM on April 20, 2016 [25 favorites]
Personal theory about part 1 of the thesis: the stories are written for men, and more specifically for men who want to identify with the hero but know damn well that they aren't cut out to be heros. So, the hero can't be cut out to be a hero either, lest immersion be broken. But how does a schlub of a hero win the day? Answer: by exploiting a hypercompetent sidekick.This trope also goes the other way, albeit less often. In The Hunger Games series, written by a woman, Katniss does not feel cut out to be a hero, but exploits multiple hyper-competent, instinctively heroic male sidekicks (Peeta, Gale, Finnick, et. al) to save the day.
In Aliens, Ripley exploits her hyper-competent male sidekicks Hicks and Bishop, while still maintaining her unlikely hero status by transforming her into Mama Bear.
Also, Buffy.
posted by LightStruk at 10:08 AM on April 20, 2016 [3 favorites]
I can't see anything sexist about chosen-one dudes who just waltz into an ongoing narrative and in five minutes have discovered magic powers which make the disciplined & competent women totally unnecessary except as love interests
posted by beerperson at 10:11 AM on April 20, 2016 [25 favorites]
posted by beerperson at 10:11 AM on April 20, 2016 [25 favorites]
Also, Salt.
I've rewatched it a couple times recently, and it's really a brilliant fucking film. I'm gutted that they didn't turn it into a franchise.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 10:14 AM on April 20, 2016 [4 favorites]
I've rewatched it a couple times recently, and it's really a brilliant fucking film. I'm gutted that they didn't turn it into a franchise.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 10:14 AM on April 20, 2016 [4 favorites]
The characters in the show might think that Gadget is the hero, but the viewer knows that Penny is the real hero.
But that's part of the problem -- girls, you can watch Penny save the day all you like (I did), but in the end, you won't get any of the credit, a bumbling guy will.
Sure, Hermione is smarter and mostly more capable than Harry, and yes, Harry only gets to be the hero because he's the Chosen One and was lucky enough to inherit a really useful invisibility cloak. Nevertheless, the Harry Potter series was written by a woman who is now one of the wealthiest people on Earth and is filled with complicated, multi-dimensional female characters. Feminist hand-wringing about its characters is pretty myopic.
I love the Harry Potter series a lot, but it's got a lot of problems with sexism -- think of Ron asking Remus for permission to share a broom with Tonks. It has many fewer female characters than male -- compare how they treated Lily Potter (primarily showing her relationships with James and Snape, a bit with Petunia) and James Potter (part of a well-defined group of friends, mentioned 50% more than Lily).
And for any one of these stories you can find reasons why it's written that way, but in aggregate it means a lot.
posted by jeather at 10:28 AM on April 20, 2016 [12 favorites]
But that's part of the problem -- girls, you can watch Penny save the day all you like (I did), but in the end, you won't get any of the credit, a bumbling guy will.
Sure, Hermione is smarter and mostly more capable than Harry, and yes, Harry only gets to be the hero because he's the Chosen One and was lucky enough to inherit a really useful invisibility cloak. Nevertheless, the Harry Potter series was written by a woman who is now one of the wealthiest people on Earth and is filled with complicated, multi-dimensional female characters. Feminist hand-wringing about its characters is pretty myopic.
I love the Harry Potter series a lot, but it's got a lot of problems with sexism -- think of Ron asking Remus for permission to share a broom with Tonks. It has many fewer female characters than male -- compare how they treated Lily Potter (primarily showing her relationships with James and Snape, a bit with Petunia) and James Potter (part of a well-defined group of friends, mentioned 50% more than Lily).
And for any one of these stories you can find reasons why it's written that way, but in aggregate it means a lot.
posted by jeather at 10:28 AM on April 20, 2016 [12 favorites]
On the one hand: Buffy, Xena, and Scully all buck this premise.
On the other hand: .....yeah, those three are the only ones I can think of off the top of my head.
Veronica Mars
posted by CrazyLemonade at 10:34 AM on April 20, 2016 [7 favorites]
On the other hand: .....yeah, those three are the only ones I can think of off the top of my head.
Veronica Mars
posted by CrazyLemonade at 10:34 AM on April 20, 2016 [7 favorites]
Finally, Inspector Gadget does not support their thesis, even though Penny is more capable but doesn't get the credit for saving the day. That's the whole point of Inspector Gadget. The characters in the show might think that Gadget is the hero, but the viewer knows that Penny is the real hero.
Sure, but what if Penny met a dinosaur?
posted by Strange Interlude at 10:46 AM on April 20, 2016
Sure, but what if Penny met a dinosaur?
posted by Strange Interlude at 10:46 AM on April 20, 2016
A) Neo, Luke, and Harry are ALL "the chosen one". Like literally, there are prophecies about all three. None of them are particularly special because of how hard they try and how much they sacrifice. You think Trinity didn't sacrifice anything for the fight? It was literally all she did; her entire purpose for being.I completely agree. My point is that the Neo/Trinity dynamic does not fit the premise, where the female sidekick is "hyper-competent" but gets sidelined by an undeserving male hero. Neo is not the hero because he's powerful or the prophesied Chosen One, he's the hero because he twice deliberately throws his life away in the service of others - first to save Morpheus, then later to save all of humanity. (The second death is permanent.) Both times, well-meaning friends try to dissuade him, and both times he persists.
B) Leia is demonstrably more competent. When we meet Luke, he is literally a farm hand out in the middle of nowhere, while Leia is a politician, a resistance leader, and a strategist (and is also force-sensitive, fwiw). Luke is good at flying planes because of the handy plot device/prophecy that makes him so much better at The Force than anyone else.Sorry, you can't have it both ways. If Leia is force-sensitive (thanks to the blatant ret-con in the sequels), then by your standards, she's no more deserving of admiration than Luke.
And if she isn't force-sensitive? I'm not sure why you admire Leia for being a politician and prejudice Luke for being a farmer. Leia is literally (adopted) royalty, inherited her position in the Senate, and was assuredly taught leadership skills and strategy from a young age. Luke learns how to fly and fight where "if there's a bright center to the universe, you're on the planet that it's farthest from." He might not be a politician, but he's enough of a strategist to rescue Leia in the Death Star and enough of a leader to persuade Han and Chewie to help.
The author's premise is that female hyper-competent sidekicks like Hermione could be the hero or even deserve it more. That's not Leia; unlike Hermione/Harry, Leia does not have the skills needed to be the hero, not without dramatically rewriting her character. She's not Rey!
posted by LightStruk at 10:51 AM on April 20, 2016
Another counter-example is Mad Max: Fury Road. The story's told from Max's point of view, but he's more of an observer. Furiosa is the hero: she's the one driving the action and leading the group.
posted by russilwvong at 10:55 AM on April 20, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by russilwvong at 10:55 AM on April 20, 2016 [1 favorite]
But that's part of the problem -- girls, you can watch Penny save the day all you like (I did), but in the end, you won't get any of the credit, a bumbling guy will.Well put.
I failed to say that the misattribution of credit in Inspector Gadget is the point because it's supposed to be funny. When you reframe it like that, though, it doesn't seem funny at all.
Playing devil's advocate, Penny is also a child, and one could argue that Penny doesn't get the credit because adults underestimate children, not because she's a girl. Moreover, since Inspector Gadget was directed at children, and Penny is the heroic child on the show, you could argue that both boys and girls were expected to identify with her instead of Inspector Gadget. In that light, Inspector Gadget is far more daring and feminist than most other kids shows, where heroic girls never stand alone, not without a heroic boy.
That's what the devil's advocate would say. I don't really believe my own argument, though, since as a kid I wanted an Inspector Gadget action figure, not a Penny action figure.
posted by LightStruk at 11:04 AM on April 20, 2016
Leia also has a sense of humor
posted by beerperson at 11:22 AM on April 20, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by beerperson at 11:22 AM on April 20, 2016 [1 favorite]
I love the Harry Potter series a lot, but it's got a lot of problems with sexism -- think of Ron asking Remus for permission to share a broom with Tonks.Lupin is a professor with higher social status than Ron, and Tonks is his wife, also with higher social status. Acknowledging this is a bit old-fashioned, but if the roles were reversed, maybe Hermione should also have to clear it with Tonks before getting on a broom with Lupin!
It has many fewer female characters than male -- compare how they treated Lily Potter and James Potter.James was caught wandless by Voldemort, while it was Lily who imbued Harry with the power to defeat him, so there's that.
Perhaps it would have been more balanced to make McGonagall the wise headmistress and Dumbledore the loyal lieutenant.
I was going to argue the point about how many important female characters there are, but after excluding the females whose primary purpose is to be the love interest of a man (like Ginny or Fleur), there's Prof. McGonagall, Molly Weasley, Luna Lovegood, Hermione Granger, Bellatrix Lestrange, Dolores freaking Umbridge... and then I ran out of ideas.
posted by LightStruk at 11:28 AM on April 20, 2016
Even in Fury Road though, it's Max who comes up with the plan to return to the Citadel (which could be considered as 'saving the day' since the other plan may have meant slow death in the wasteland). Everyone else goes along with it.
posted by kokaku at 11:28 AM on April 20, 2016
posted by kokaku at 11:28 AM on April 20, 2016
Even in Fury Road though, it's Max who comes up with the plan to return to the Citadel (which could be considered as 'saving the day' since the other plan may have meant slow death in the wasteland). Everyone else goes along with it.
Right, but that's typical sidekick behaviour, isn't it? Suggesting the necessary course of action to the hero, and not getting real credit for it in the end? (cf Hermione)
posted by saturday_morning at 11:31 AM on April 20, 2016 [2 favorites]
Right, but that's typical sidekick behaviour, isn't it? Suggesting the necessary course of action to the hero, and not getting real credit for it in the end? (cf Hermione)
posted by saturday_morning at 11:31 AM on April 20, 2016 [2 favorites]
I think this is a matter of motivation for the character, too. Who has more skin in the game, Leia or Luke? Obviously Leia--her planet was destroyed and she's devoted her life to fighting for the rebels. Same with Gamora--she wants to stop Ronan and the whole plot hinges around her desire to do that. But their motivations are not nearly as interesting to the filmmakers as Luke's sadness over losing Obi-Wan or Peter's vague desire to do something useful/get into Gamora's pants.
Lots of examples have been named where women are the main characters, but very few of them could be described as ordinary/schlubby.
posted by chaiminda at 11:49 AM on April 20, 2016
Lots of examples have been named where women are the main characters, but very few of them could be described as ordinary/schlubby.
posted by chaiminda at 11:49 AM on April 20, 2016
In Aliens, Ripley exploits her hyper-competent male sidekicks Hicks and Bishop, while still maintaining her unlikely hero status by transforming her into Mama Bear.
Exsqueeze me? Ripley saves the asses of Hicks and the survivors in their first encounter with the xenos, takes command of the mission in the wake of Gorman's failures, fights off not one but two facehuggers by herself, exposes Burke as a traitor, AND saves Hicks and Bishop again along with Newt at the end of the film. In what universe is she "exploiting her hyper-competent male sidekicks?" If anything, she is the hyper-competent one, covering up her companions' weaknesses and blindspots.
posted by Existential Dread at 11:49 AM on April 20, 2016 [11 favorites]
Exsqueeze me? Ripley saves the asses of Hicks and the survivors in their first encounter with the xenos, takes command of the mission in the wake of Gorman's failures, fights off not one but two facehuggers by herself, exposes Burke as a traitor, AND saves Hicks and Bishop again along with Newt at the end of the film. In what universe is she "exploiting her hyper-competent male sidekicks?" If anything, she is the hyper-competent one, covering up her companions' weaknesses and blindspots.
posted by Existential Dread at 11:49 AM on April 20, 2016 [11 favorites]
On the one hand: Buffy, Xena, and Scully all buck this premise.
On the other hand: .....yeah, those three are the only ones I can think of off the top of my head.
Emma Peel
posted by Billiken at 12:02 PM on April 20, 2016
On the other hand: .....yeah, those three are the only ones I can think of off the top of my head.
Emma Peel
posted by Billiken at 12:02 PM on April 20, 2016
Frankly, I think that the whole 'chosen one' IS a good example of this trope. The male character may not necessarily be (but often are) bumbling and incompetent, but they are the hero/protagonist because the author has anointed them CHOSEN ONE. The strong female characters are relegated to sidekick by the author and audience.
We can nitpick about strong female characters and heroes that serve as counterexamples all day (Aeon Flux might be another example), but the weight of culture is definitely tilted in the opposite direction.
posted by Existential Dread at 12:06 PM on April 20, 2016 [9 favorites]
We can nitpick about strong female characters and heroes that serve as counterexamples all day (Aeon Flux might be another example), but the weight of culture is definitely tilted in the opposite direction.
posted by Existential Dread at 12:06 PM on April 20, 2016 [9 favorites]
A point I loved that someone made in a thread about Star Wars is that at one point even though her entire home planet is destroyed and everyone she ever knew is dead, Leia's purpose in the story is to comfort Luke because an old guy he'd first met a few days beforehand was also killed by Darth Vader.
posted by XMLicious at 12:08 PM on April 20, 2016 [14 favorites]
posted by XMLicious at 12:08 PM on April 20, 2016 [14 favorites]
When we meet Luke, he is literally a farm hand out in the middle of nowhere, while Leia is a politician, a resistance leader, and a strategist
True fact: it was only when the sequels started getting promoted that it fully dawned on me that Luke and Leia are the exact same age. When I watched SW and ESB a million times as a kid before RotJ came out, I always assumed that Leia had seven or eight years on him, and the impression was so strong it wasn't dislodged by the revelation that they were twins. If my math is correct, she's nineteen when she's running her vital intelligence mission, surviving the destruction of her entire planet, and mouthing off at two of the most powerful men in the galaxy.
posted by praemunire at 12:16 PM on April 20, 2016 [27 favorites]
True fact: it was only when the sequels started getting promoted that it fully dawned on me that Luke and Leia are the exact same age. When I watched SW and ESB a million times as a kid before RotJ came out, I always assumed that Leia had seven or eight years on him, and the impression was so strong it wasn't dislodged by the revelation that they were twins. If my math is correct, she's nineteen when she's running her vital intelligence mission, surviving the destruction of her entire planet, and mouthing off at two of the most powerful men in the galaxy.
posted by praemunire at 12:16 PM on April 20, 2016 [27 favorites]
The article I just read before this was the "How to negotiate for a raise if you're a woman" article, and it was essentially like reading the same article twice.
I don't think we need to look at fiction at all to notice this trope. Think of all the real-life examples where a hyper-competent woman has to prove her hyper-competence any number of times, just to be considered as acceptable supporting staff for the semi-competent golden boy who inexplicably gets handed the juicy projects and promotions. I'd say that seeing the same trope repeated in pop culture serves, unfortunately, as a reinforcement of the idea that, in order for a woman to qualify as sidekick, she has to be hyper-competent and demonstrate her value constantly; and for a man to qualify as hero, he just has to be there, because someone already decided that he was the Chosen One.
posted by Autumnheart at 12:17 PM on April 20, 2016 [6 favorites]
I don't think we need to look at fiction at all to notice this trope. Think of all the real-life examples where a hyper-competent woman has to prove her hyper-competence any number of times, just to be considered as acceptable supporting staff for the semi-competent golden boy who inexplicably gets handed the juicy projects and promotions. I'd say that seeing the same trope repeated in pop culture serves, unfortunately, as a reinforcement of the idea that, in order for a woman to qualify as sidekick, she has to be hyper-competent and demonstrate her value constantly; and for a man to qualify as hero, he just has to be there, because someone already decided that he was the Chosen One.
posted by Autumnheart at 12:17 PM on April 20, 2016 [6 favorites]
Yeah wow. Ripley is one of the lamentably few female leads who goes "fuck this, I'm in fucking charge now, you all fucking suck" and makes it stick. Until the (patriarchal) Weyland-Yutani corp stomps on her. She is quite simply the single most capable character in the entire series.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 12:17 PM on April 20, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 12:17 PM on April 20, 2016 [4 favorites]
In a better universe the TV show Chuck admitted, somewhere around season 2, that Sarah had the compelling moral and psychological arc and Chuck was the charming McGuffin-and-sidekick. Also spycraft didn't turn out to be genetically heritable, WTF.
posted by clew at 12:25 PM on April 20, 2016
posted by clew at 12:25 PM on April 20, 2016
those three are the only ones I can think of off the top of my head.
Jackie Brown. Even Tarantino hater me likes that movie a lot. Because Elmore Leonard.
As to Luke and the new Star Wars thing- Luke was doing a whole lot of remedial Jedi training to get up to speed. The last movie, as I understand it, she could just do it all, whatever, no training necessary. One reason I've no plans to see it.
posted by IndigoJones at 12:27 PM on April 20, 2016
Jackie Brown. Even Tarantino hater me likes that movie a lot. Because Elmore Leonard.
As to Luke and the new Star Wars thing- Luke was doing a whole lot of remedial Jedi training to get up to speed. The last movie, as I understand it, she could just do it all, whatever, no training necessary. One reason I've no plans to see it.
posted by IndigoJones at 12:27 PM on April 20, 2016
Okay, I'm kind of thrilled that people have put forward other female leading characters (Ripley! Right!...).
Comparatively, though, no matter how many more we come up with, it still ain't gonna be quite equal.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 12:28 PM on April 20, 2016 [3 favorites]
Comparatively, though, no matter how many more we come up with, it still ain't gonna be quite equal.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 12:28 PM on April 20, 2016 [3 favorites]
Indeed not.
(If you haven't seen Salt, do. Angelina Jolie is a hell of an action movie star in any case, and her character is light years smarter, tougher, more empathetic, and more capable than any other three people in the movie put together.)
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 12:30 PM on April 20, 2016 [2 favorites]
(If you haven't seen Salt, do. Angelina Jolie is a hell of an action movie star in any case, and her character is light years smarter, tougher, more empathetic, and more capable than any other three people in the movie put together.)
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 12:30 PM on April 20, 2016 [2 favorites]
I haven't seen Salt, but I'm a big big fan of Haywire. Kickass action thriller from Soderbergh in which a badass operative played by Gina Carano fights against a traitorous Ewan McGregor.
posted by Existential Dread at 12:43 PM on April 20, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Existential Dread at 12:43 PM on April 20, 2016 [1 favorite]
Comparatively, though, no matter how many more we come up with, it still ain't gonna be quite equal.
True enough, but that's only going to change when it becomes clear if there's money to be made. The Suits tend to be pretty conservative. If the idea is to bring in the fifteen to thirty five male age demographic with promises of things blowing up and there's a woman lead, they're going to go Angelina Jolie before they go with a less plasticized woman.
Let us set aside the suits for the moment. How are things shaping up in the self-publishing arena? Is there data on the relative sales figures of Hardy Boys vs Nancy Drew over the years?
If you haven't seen Salt,
Then too, Mr and Mrs Smith, where you've some kind of parity. (Would Kill Bill count? Haven't seen them.)
posted by IndigoJones at 12:45 PM on April 20, 2016 [1 favorite]
True enough, but that's only going to change when it becomes clear if there's money to be made. The Suits tend to be pretty conservative. If the idea is to bring in the fifteen to thirty five male age demographic with promises of things blowing up and there's a woman lead, they're going to go Angelina Jolie before they go with a less plasticized woman.
Let us set aside the suits for the moment. How are things shaping up in the self-publishing arena? Is there data on the relative sales figures of Hardy Boys vs Nancy Drew over the years?
If you haven't seen Salt,
Then too, Mr and Mrs Smith, where you've some kind of parity. (Would Kill Bill count? Haven't seen them.)
posted by IndigoJones at 12:45 PM on April 20, 2016 [1 favorite]
I'm very pleased with the effectiveness and simplicity of the infographic they used.
posted by redsparkler at 1:12 PM on April 20, 2016 [2 favorites]
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posted by redsparkler at 1:12 PM on April 20, 2016 [2 favorites]
in which a badass operative played by Gina Carano fights against a traitorous Ewan McGregor.
You left out the part where she beats up Michael Fassbender in a hotel room.
posted by praemunire at 1:27 PM on April 20, 2016 [1 favorite]
You left out the part where she beats up Michael Fassbender in a hotel room.
posted by praemunire at 1:27 PM on April 20, 2016 [1 favorite]
Oh! The Long Kiss Goodnight, Geena Davis kicking every ass and then going back and kicking them again to be sure.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 1:31 PM on April 20, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 1:31 PM on April 20, 2016 [3 favorites]
In a better universe the TV show Chuck admitted, somewhere around season 2, that Sarah had the compelling moral and psychological arc and Chuck was the charming McGuffin-and-sidekick. Also spycraft didn't turn out to be genetically heritable, WTF.
clew
Yeah, Chuck really had a lot of potential. It's too bad they only ever made two seasons of it.
posted by yeolcoatl at 1:32 PM on April 20, 2016 [1 favorite]
clew
Yeah, Chuck really had a lot of potential. It's too bad they only ever made two seasons of it.
posted by yeolcoatl at 1:32 PM on April 20, 2016 [1 favorite]
On the one hand: Buffy, Xena, and Scully all buck this premise.
On the other hand: .....yeah, those three are the only ones I can think of off the top of my head.
Veronica Mars
The article is talking about shows with male leads and hyper-competent female sidekicks, so none of these are the topic of discussion except possibly The X-Files.
Shows with competent female leads is a different discussion.
posted by Squeak Attack at 2:01 PM on April 20, 2016 [1 favorite]
On the other hand: .....yeah, those three are the only ones I can think of off the top of my head.
Veronica Mars
The article is talking about shows with male leads and hyper-competent female sidekicks, so none of these are the topic of discussion except possibly The X-Files.
Shows with competent female leads is a different discussion.
posted by Squeak Attack at 2:01 PM on April 20, 2016 [1 favorite]
Lupin is a professor with higher social status than Ron, and Tonks is his wife, also with higher social status. Acknowledging this is a bit old-fashioned, but if the roles were reversed, maybe Hermione should also have to clear it with Tonks before getting on a broom with Lupin!
The fuck? The only person who should have to clear Ron to borrow Tonks' broom is Tonks, social status aside or not. What are you going on about here? Because the only way that I can parse this comment is an insinuation that women can't work with men (and vice versa) without the implication automatically being that they're sexual threats to each others' relationships... and that's exactly the idea that has been used to keep women from entering traditionally male workplaces for decades now. Seriously, what even?
posted by sciatrix at 2:07 PM on April 20, 2016 [13 favorites]
The fuck? The only person who should have to clear Ron to borrow Tonks' broom is Tonks, social status aside or not. What are you going on about here? Because the only way that I can parse this comment is an insinuation that women can't work with men (and vice versa) without the implication automatically being that they're sexual threats to each others' relationships... and that's exactly the idea that has been used to keep women from entering traditionally male workplaces for decades now. Seriously, what even?
posted by sciatrix at 2:07 PM on April 20, 2016 [13 favorites]
This is not a new observation, and it's more than a bit baffling that they couldn't at least have included some powerful counterexamples, such as the third-highest-grossing film (Rey), the second-highest-grossing film (Rose, who both saves and survives Jack), or even arguably the highest-grossing film (in which the male protagonist eventually gets saved by the female deuteragonist). The phenomenon that the article describes is real, of course, and the counterexamples that I list make the point that it's not only inherently bogus but not even "necessary" from a purely commercial standpoint. (See also: BvS, and the numerous reviews that say that Wonder Woman is the only real reason to see the film.)
posted by Halloween Jack at 2:31 PM on April 20, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by Halloween Jack at 2:31 PM on April 20, 2016 [2 favorites]
Echo from Dollhouse, Sarah Connor (movies and TV, maybe moreso on TV).
posted by porpoise at 2:55 PM on April 20, 2016
posted by porpoise at 2:55 PM on April 20, 2016
I'm pretty sure Echo was the lead in Dollhouse, and very sure that Sarah Connor was the lead in Terminator: The Sarah Connor Chronicles.
posted by Squeak Attack at 3:50 PM on April 20, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Squeak Attack at 3:50 PM on April 20, 2016 [1 favorite]
Basically, we can have female/POC/LBGT sidekicks, as long as they don't outshine the hero enough to take over their role.
Seriously though, Hermione should be the star of Harry Potter, except if she was, boys wouldn't read it and JKR would still be broke.
posted by jenfullmoon at 4:05 PM on April 20, 2016 [3 favorites]
Seriously though, Hermione should be the star of Harry Potter, except if she was, boys wouldn't read it and JKR would still be broke.
posted by jenfullmoon at 4:05 PM on April 20, 2016 [3 favorites]
The article is talking about shows with male leads and hyper-competent female sidekicks, so none of these are the topic of discussion except possibly The X-Files.
Then how about The Incredibles, where Helen Paar is possibly but not definitely more competent than her husband (he's not a useless schlub that she's inexplicably attracted to) and as soon as she comes out of retirement the movie changes from being mostly about Mr. Incredible to an ensemble story.
posted by straight at 4:20 PM on April 20, 2016
Then how about The Incredibles, where Helen Paar is possibly but not definitely more competent than her husband (he's not a useless schlub that she's inexplicably attracted to) and as soon as she comes out of retirement the movie changes from being mostly about Mr. Incredible to an ensemble story.
posted by straight at 4:20 PM on April 20, 2016
Seriously though, Hermione should be the star of Harry Potter, except if she was, boys wouldn't read it and JKR would still be broke.
The sad thing is, boys would read it, but the industry and society as a whole would assume they wouldn't so Rowling would still be broke.
posted by tavegyl at 6:59 PM on April 20, 2016 [8 favorites]
The sad thing is, boys would read it, but the industry and society as a whole would assume they wouldn't so Rowling would still be broke.
posted by tavegyl at 6:59 PM on April 20, 2016 [8 favorites]
One of these days, we'll have a show or movie where the hero gets himself Ned Starked and the female sidekick takes up the lead for the last 1/2 or 2/3 of the movie/series.
If you can make yourself watch it, this definitely happens in M. Night Shyamalan's The Village.
posted by vaghjar at 8:14 PM on April 20, 2016
If you can make yourself watch it, this definitely happens in M. Night Shyamalan's The Village.
posted by vaghjar at 8:14 PM on April 20, 2016
There's got to be more examples (of the hypercompetent female sidekick). I can't think of any right this second, but I remember spotting this pattern in a lot of trailers.
Does Black Widow count? She's definitely got the "always a sidekick, never a hero" thing going on.
As to Luke and the new Star Wars thing- Luke was doing a whole lot of remedial Jedi training to get up to speed. The last movie, as I understand it, she could just do it all, whatever, no training necessary. One reason I've no plans to see it.
I'm not sure how this fits into the discussion but - she doesn't just "do it all". She pulls two Force tricks, and both of them are copying something the villain did, right in front of her, two seconds before. Not that you have to see the movie, i mean, but that critique is baseless and incredibly frustrating.
posted by Rainbo Vagrant at 10:25 PM on April 20, 2016 [2 favorites]
Does Black Widow count? She's definitely got the "always a sidekick, never a hero" thing going on.
As to Luke and the new Star Wars thing- Luke was doing a whole lot of remedial Jedi training to get up to speed. The last movie, as I understand it, she could just do it all, whatever, no training necessary. One reason I've no plans to see it.
I'm not sure how this fits into the discussion but - she doesn't just "do it all". She pulls two Force tricks, and both of them are copying something the villain did, right in front of her, two seconds before. Not that you have to see the movie, i mean, but that critique is baseless and incredibly frustrating.
posted by Rainbo Vagrant at 10:25 PM on April 20, 2016 [2 favorites]
Why has nobody mentioned Felicity Smoak? I can't be the only person who watches Arrow, can I?
posted by mneekadon at 12:36 AM on April 21, 2016
posted by mneekadon at 12:36 AM on April 21, 2016
And in a related story, what happens when female stars are kicked out of their franchises? (Spoilers for multiple tv shows.)
Taken as a whole, along with any number of times this has happened in the past [ . . ] the message is clear: Women on television are disposable. You can be the co-lead of a popular network series, one with a massive online fan base no less, but you’re still considered as expendable as any of Jack Bauer’s doomed lady loves. Even if you are one-half of a two-hander, you are considered inessential in a way that the male co-star rarely is.posted by jeather at 8:56 AM on April 21, 2016 [1 favorite]
[ . . . ]
Warts and all, Snow White and the Huntsman was an example of how female-led fantasy action movies could succeed on a comparative level as the male-led ones. But we still have a sequel today starring the male co-star (Chris Hemsworth) with a new female lead (Jessica Chastain) to spice things up. While the original 2012 film was sold as a female-empowerment fantasy action movie featuring an armor-wearing/sword-wielding Snow White, the franchise plans around said picture were not based around Snow White, but rather around her male co-star no matter how well that film did.
If Snow White and the Huntsman had bombed, Stewart would have gotten tarred. It would have served as another example of how female-led films can’t possibly be blockbusters. But it snagged a $55 million debut and $396m worldwide cume and she got tarred anyway.
If you haven't seen Salt, do. Angelina Jolie is a hell of an action movie star in any case, and her character is light years smarter, tougher, more empathetic, and more capable than any other three people in the movie put together.
Oh. I love Salt too, but this may qualify partly as a counter-example, as Jolie's part was written for a male lead. :-(
posted by LEGO Damashii at 11:39 AM on April 21, 2016
Oh. I love Salt too, but this may qualify partly as a counter-example, as Jolie's part was written for a male lead. :-(
posted by LEGO Damashii at 11:39 AM on April 21, 2016
Oh snap, I forgot - the female lead in Sleepy Hollow, Abbie Mills, was killed off the show.
posted by Rainbo Vagrant at 3:35 PM on April 21, 2016
posted by Rainbo Vagrant at 3:35 PM on April 21, 2016
How has no one mentioned Get Smart yet?
posted by kjs4 at 6:49 PM on April 21, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by kjs4 at 6:49 PM on April 21, 2016 [1 favorite]
I was also thinking Get Smart, which was kind of Inspector Gadget for grown ups, iirc.
I have to say that this:
And if she isn't force-sensitive? I'm not sure why you admire Leia for being a politician and prejudice Luke for being a farmer. Leia is literally (adopted) royalty, inherited her position in the Senate, and was assuredly taught leadership skills and strategy from a young age. Luke learns how to fly and fight where "if there's a bright center to the universe, you're on the planet that it's farthest from." He might not be a politician, but he's enough of a strategist to rescue Leia in the Death Star and enough of a leader to persuade Han and Chewie to help.
gave me some insight into how people view Hillary Clinton as insufficiently experienced/qualified for the presidency (without weighing job at all on her competitors, any of them).
posted by Salamandrous at 9:44 AM on April 23, 2016
I have to say that this:
And if she isn't force-sensitive? I'm not sure why you admire Leia for being a politician and prejudice Luke for being a farmer. Leia is literally (adopted) royalty, inherited her position in the Senate, and was assuredly taught leadership skills and strategy from a young age. Luke learns how to fly and fight where "if there's a bright center to the universe, you're on the planet that it's farthest from." He might not be a politician, but he's enough of a strategist to rescue Leia in the Death Star and enough of a leader to persuade Han and Chewie to help.
gave me some insight into how people view Hillary Clinton as insufficiently experienced/qualified for the presidency (without weighing job at all on her competitors, any of them).
posted by Salamandrous at 9:44 AM on April 23, 2016
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posted by Mogur at 9:04 AM on April 20, 2016 [3 favorites]